From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 1 13:34:23 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 13:34:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just in case anyone's interested In-Reply-To: <8CC70D8F6A16D5C-F70-B15@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC70D8F6A16D5C-F70-B15@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B671EAF.9020108@nut-n-but.net> THE PEDESTAL MAGAZINE Visual Poetry Gallery John M. Bennett and Bob Grumman are happy to report that they have been chosen to edit a visual poem gallery to be featured in the April issue of /The Pedestal Magazine ( www.thepedestalmagazine.com )/ . We are therefore soliciting work from anyone interested in the project. We will chose selections from 12 artists, each of whom will have four pieces published. Send four to six works to all three of the following addresses: bennettjohnm at gmail.com , bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net and pedmagazine at carolina.rr.com . Two may be of previously published work, but no more. Try to include some works accessible to people not familiar with visual poetry, like the readers of /Poetry/ magazine, for /The Pedestal/ has never previously published this kind of work. Try also to choose work all of whose pertinent details will be clear if reduced to a size that will fit a normal computer screen. Have a short bio (100 words max) ready to send if your work is chosen. We will also ask for a photo to be included with the bio, but this is optional. A short artist's statement should be prepared which addresses themes, techniques, styles, etc. present throughout the work. Color is acceptable. 300 dpi, jpg preferred. Each contributor will be paid $40. Submission period: February 28-April 14. We look forward to seeing your work! John and Bob I might add that /the Pedestal/ may be a good (/paying/) market to try your conventional poetry on. Take a look at its home page. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 13:47:55 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:47:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Salinger Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002011047m659f518ao3607f0bfa5809a5e@mail.gmail.com> The trouble with all of us, he believed, is that when we were young we never knew anybody who could or would tell us any of the penalties of making it in the world on the usual terms: ?I don?t mean just the pretty obvious penalties, I mean the ones that are just about unnoticeable and that do really lasting damage, the kind the world doesn?t even think of as damage.? He talked about how easily writers could become vain, complaining that they got puffed up by the same ?authorities? who approved putting monosodium glutamate in baby food. Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2010/02/08/100208ta_talk_ross#ixzz0eJNRHGk3 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Feb 1 20:14:44 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:14:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Just in case anyone's interested Message-ID: <4d02.75f61d7c.3898d684@aol.com> Pedestal is a good online journal and John Amen is a great guy. You'll enjoy working with him, Bob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 2 07:00:45 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 07:00:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] List Member Featured In-Reply-To: <4d02.75f61d7c.3898d684@aol.com> References: <4d02.75f61d7c.3898d684@aol.com> Message-ID: <9DAD48C6B4684E689B4C9B0B9BA3917F@RobinLaptopPC> Judy Prince of this list is the Featured Poet (photograph, self-interview, and poem) in the current issue of The Nervous Breakdown: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 2 09:45:33 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fogged Clarity -- February 2010 Message-ID: <552760.44274.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Fiction Sam Ramos -- The Question of the City Kirsten Clodfelter -- If I Can Keep One Thing, It Will Be This Poetry Anne Champion -- Elegy for C.D. Laws Jack Kristiansen -- Ekphrasis: To Fede Galizia Michael Tyrell -- First Frost, New York Stephen Kunert -- I?ve Lost Poems Marc Petersen -- Christmas Morning Jenny Gillespie -- Lines Stitched into a Duskywing Visual Jeremy Geddes ? Cosmonauts Labokoff -- The Pole Series Jon MacNair -- Scenes in Ink Aural Great Lake Swimmers -- Lost Channels Interviews Tony Dekker -- Discusses inspiration and water Ian Link -- Talks and sings of Murakami and Pernod Reviews Scott Hightower -- The Poetry of Patty Seyburn Benjamin Evans -- A Review of Patti Smith?s Just Kids http://foggedclarity.com/ _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut -- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 2 13:30:17 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:30:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Di Prima, SF's PL Message-ID: <8CC724CE78325EC-74BC-45D6@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=56101 The poet, prose writer, memoirist, playwright, social justice activist and teacher has authored nearly four dozen books, with her work translated into more than 20 languages. Di Prima, named to the poet laureate post by Mayor Gavin Newsom last spring, is the fifth San Franciscan to hold the title. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 2 13:36:11 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:36:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Di Prima, SF's PL In-Reply-To: <8CC724CE78325EC-74BC-45D6@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC724CE78325EC-74BC-45D6@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <13127.67522.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hooray! Good news! _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut-- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, February 2, 2010 1:30:17 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Di Prima, SF's PL http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=56101 The poet, prose writer, memoirist, playwright, social justice activist and teacher has authored nearly four dozen books, with her work translated into more than 20 languages. Di Prima, named to the poet laureate post by Mayor Gavin Newsom last spring, is the fifth San Franciscan to hold the title. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 2 14:04:22 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:04:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just in case anyone's interested In-Reply-To: <4d02.75f61d7c.3898d684@aol.com> References: <4d02.75f61d7c.3898d684@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B687736.4050100@nut-n-but.net> AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Pedestal is a good online journal and John Amen is a great guy. You'll > enjoy working with him, Bob. So far I definitely have. Very positive and efficient fellow. He, John and I have had very smooth going so far. Looks to be a fun project. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 2 14:15:45 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:15:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Russian Zaum poetry Message-ID: <8CC7253417EC969-3C90-A16@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> http://wgcp.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/language-beyond-language/ On February 12 at 3pm, the WGCP will meet in room 38 at Beinecke Library with Curator Tim Young to discuss Russian Zaum poetry and what Young has called the ?pre- and quasi verbal? in books by poets and artists. Young will show an exhibition of rare Zaum books and related materials from the Beinecke Library?s Modern Books and Manuscripts Collection (BG: Take note) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 2 22:46:49 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:46:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Darwish's poetry and life thru film Message-ID: <8CC729AA64D4D53-6848-5451@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=4&article_id=111374 ?As the Poet Said,? the latest feature-length film by Lebanon-based Palestinian documentarian Nasri Hajjaj, is one of the more ambitious efforts to bring Darwish?s poetry to the rest of the world through film. The premise of the film is simple, setting out to take the audience on a tour through the poet?s life. Accompanied by Darwish?s work, Hajjaj takes the camera to some of the places the poet lived -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 2 23:01:51 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:01:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Miller Message-ID: <8CC729CC01B95F3-6848-5735@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/20168.aspx Miller is the author of nine volumes of poetry, including "A Palace of Pearls" (2005), a book-length meditation on home, love, war and the responsibility of the poet. Divided into 33 chapters, the book was inspired by the spectacular Moorish kingdom of Al-Andalus, which fell during the Spanish inquisition, but also weaves together contemporary concerns with Greek, Roman and Judaic mythologies. ?Reading Jane Miller?s poetry is like channel-surfing on acid,? wrote critic Terri Sutton in the LA Weekly. ?Her deliberately interrupted narrative warps and weaves and makes the familiar strange and the strange recognizable as something you might have put away in a shoebox.? \ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 12:40:25 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:40:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] D.A. Powell wins $100,000 Kingsley Tufts Award Message-ID: <8CC730F1A52B968-47BC-1119@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2010/02/da-powell-wins-100000-prize-for-poetry.html D.A. Powell wins $100,000 prize for poetry February 2, 2010 | 3:42 pm D.A. Powell, who teaches at the University of San Francisco, has won the $100,000 Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award from Claremont Graduate University. His books include "Tea," "Lunch," "Cocktails" and "Chronic." In a review in The Times last year, John Freeman described Powell as "a modern romantic: obsessed, enraged and turned about by love. His language is infiltrated by songs, phrases from movies, the treacle-sweet soundtracks of so many musicals. 'Love,' he writes in one poem, 'is the chorus waiting to be born.' " The Tufts prize was established in 1992 to honor work by a midcareer poet. Powell is 46. Claremont also announced Tuesday that the $10,000 Kate Tufts Discovery Award was going to Beth Bachmann for her first book of poetry, "Temper." Bachmann teaches at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. The awards will be presented at 6:30 p.m. April 22 at the Pasadena Museum of California Art. The free event is open to the public, although an RSVP is required at (909) 621-8974. -- Lee Margulies - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 13:16:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:16:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] merry birthday to BOB ! Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002031016j235747e8v9ed5969a908842b0@mail.gmail.com> http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2010/02/merry-birthday-punxsutawney-grumman.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 13:36:40 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:36:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Message-ID: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2010/01/in-search-of-lost-speech-may-2010-nyc.html Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Tom Cheetham "Prayer is the supreme form, the highest act of the Creative Imagination." Henry Corbin Judaism, Christianity and Islam are united by the idea of the sacred nature of language, and the perception that all of creation is a kind of book. The great scholar of Islamic mysticism, Henry Corbin, said that a problem common to all the "religions of the book" is the drama of the "Lost Speech" i.e. the interior meaning of the Book, hidden under its literal interpretation. The contemporary world leaves most of us little time and less encouragement to seek out the interior meaning of our lives or of the world around us. The literal forms of religion lead to fundamentalism, and science, powerful and necessary though it is, cannot by itself give meaning to our lives. So our only recourse is the exercise of our creative imagination to rediscover the "Lost Speech." This evening we will try to understand how poetry, prayer and acts of imagination can open us to the worlds within and around us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 14:17:57 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:17:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Spring 2010 Poetry Programs: Annual Chapbook Festival & more! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC731CB8ECE7E0-47BC-3409@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Bozicevic, Ana To: POETRY-l at GC.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:45 pm Subject: Spring 2010 Poetry Programs: Annual Chapbook Festival & more! Spring 2010 Poetry Programs Turnstyle Reading Series Writers from the Master of Fine Arts Programs in Creative Writing at CUNY February 9th, Martin E. Segal Theatre, The Graduate Center, CUNY: Jan Heller Levi and John Weir, joined by MFA students March 10th, Martin E. Segal Theatre, The Graduate Center, CUNY: Rick Pearse and Emily Raboteau, joined by MFA students April 15th, Room 630, John Jay College of Criminal Justice: Julie Agoos, Adam Berlin, Pamela Laskin, joined by MFA students May 10th, The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY: Colum McCann and Richard Schotter, joined by MFA students All readings start at 6:30pm. Co-sponsored by the CUNY MFA in Creative Writing Affiliation Group and the Office of Academic Affairs Tendencies: Poetics and Practice This series of talks curated by Tim Peterson explores the relationship between contemporary poetic manifesto, practice, queer theory and pedagogy. February 24th, Segal Theatre: Akilah Oliver, Kate Eichhorn, Charles Bernstein March 9th, Segal Theatre: erica kaufman, Douglas A. Martin, Mina Pam Dick April 9th, Segal Theatre: Dodie Bellamy, Eileen Myles, Kevin Killian May 6th, Skylight Room, 9100: Jack Kimball, CA Conrad, Stacy Szymaszek All events take place at 6:30pm. Co-sponsored by Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, Ph.D. Program in English, and Poetics Group Lost & Found: The CUNY Poetics Document Initiative Lost& Found is a publication project emerging from archival and textual scholarship done by students at The Graduate Center, with the primary focus on writers falling under the rubric of the New American Poetry. Last fall we launched an inaugural chapbook series published as part of the initiative (for more information, please visit centerforthehumanitiesgc.org/lostandfound). This spring, join us for a series of events with visiting Lost & Found Fellows Margaret Randall and David Henderson, among others. Chanticleer and the Legacies of the Black Arts Movement February 23rd, Tuesday, 6:30pm Martin E. Segal Theatre Join photographer Nikki Johnson, filmmaker and artist Camille Billops and professor emeritus James Hatch to discuss the legacy of the black arts movement, starting with case of Raven Chanticleer, most famously the founder, craftsman and proprietor of the Harlem African-American Wax and History Museum. Moderated by poet David Henderson, one of the founders of the Umbra Arts Movement. Beats and Beyond: Documenting the Poets of the 60?s March 15th, Monday, 6:30pm The Skylight Room (9100) Join poet and artist Cecilia Vicu?a and filmmakers Melanie La Rosa and Henry Ferrini for a conversation about films that bring into cinematic focus the untold histories of a radical literary era. With excerpts from films ?El Corno Emplumado - A Story From the Sixties,? ?This Bird Flies Backward? (on the life and work of poet Diane di Prima), and ?Polis Is This: Charles Olson and the Persistence of Place.? Co-sponsored by the Ph.D. Program in Hispanic and Luso-Brazilian Literatures and Languages and the Doctoral Students Council New Visions, New Activism, New American Poetry Margaret Randall in Conversation March 22nd, Monday, 6:30pm The Skylight Room (9100) Join poet, political activist and publisher Margaret Randall and the Graduate Center?s Ammiel Alcalay, Professor of English and Comparative Literature, in a conversation about her work and the journal El Corno Emplumado / The Plumed Horn (1962-1969), then on the cutting edge of independent publishing and now an archival treasure. Co-sponsored by the Ph.D. Program in Hispanic and Luso-Brazilian Literatures and Languages and the Doctoral Students Council Multiformalisms: Postmodern Poetics of Form March 16th 2010, Tuesday, 6:30pm, Rooms 9206-9207 Join editor Annie Finch for a lively discussion of new directions in poetic form and theory. With poet Marilyn Hacker and other contributors to the collection Multiformalisms: Postmodern Poetics of Form. Co-sponsored by the Poetics Group Annual Chapbook Festival Monday May 3 and Tuesday May 4 The Festival celebrates the chapbook as a work of art and as a vehicle for alternative and emerging writers and publishers. Now in its second year, the festival features a two-day bookfair with chapbook publishers from around the country, workshops, marathon poetry readings, and a closing-night reading of prize-winning Chapbook Fellows. Workshops will include: Producing Chapbooks: A Workshop for Poets, Producing Chapbooks: A Workshop for Publishers, Do-It-Yourself Chapbooks: Make and Distribute Your Own, and Chapbooks as Art Objects. Please visit chapbookfestival.org for further details. Are you an interested publisher? Please e-mail abozicevic at gc.cuny.edu You need JavaScript enabled to view it to reserve space at the bookfair. Co-sponsored by The Office of Academic Affairs, MFA Programs in Creative Writing of the City University of New York, The Center for the Humanities at The Graduate Center CUNY, The Center for Book Arts, Poets House, Poetry Society of America, and Poets & Writers http://www.centerforthehumanitiesgc.org ======================================== You are subscribed to the POETRY-l List with e-mail address jforjames at AOL.COM To unsubscribe at any time, please follow these UNSUBSCRIBE instructions: end any email (subject and text are ignored) to POETRY-l-SIGNOFF-REQUEST at GC.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU or click here: ttp://gc.listserv.cuny.edu/scriptsgc/wa-gc.exe?SUBED1=POETRY-l&A=1&s=jforjames at AOL.COM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 4768 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 8761 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 12392 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 15:27:16 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:27:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Drunken Boat 11 is Live! In-Reply-To: <6d237f4d1002031103x5e917924vf028c8402156d6e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d237f4d1002031103x5e917924vf028c8402156d6e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC7326696607A1-496C-6C4@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> From: editor correspondence To: editor correspondence Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: Drunken Boat 11 is Live! Dear Friends of Drunken Boat We're pleased to announce that Issue 11 is now live. You can view it at www.drunkenboat.com. Be sure to check out our featured folio, Life in a Time of Contraction, a socially-conscious collection of nonfiction and visual arts, as well as our exclusive on current US poet-laureate Kay Ryan and our folio of sound art. This issue marks our first bi-annual release. From this issue on, we will also be including 50 poems in Poetics. We'll also be bringing you the meatiest in fiction and nonfiction from around the world. Sincerely, The Editors of Drunken Boat PS. Don't forget to check for weekly updates on our blog, fan us on Facebook for the latest updates, or follow us on Twitter for a daily dose of literary goodness! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Drunken-Boat/57066421637 www.twitter.com/drunken_boat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 15:54:51 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:54:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> There are poetry-related posts on this blog. The influence of Henry Corbin on poets like Charles Olson... http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-notes-on-henry-corbin-charles.html http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:36 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2010/01/in-search-of-lost-speech-may-2010-nyc.html Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Tom Cheetham "Prayer is the supreme form, the highest act of the Creative Imagination." Henry Corbin Judaism, Christianity and Islam are united by the idea of the sacred nature of language, and the perception that all of creation is a kind of book. The great scholar of Islamic mysticism, Henry Corbin, said that a problem common to all the "religions of the book" is the drama of the "Lost Speech" i.e. the interior meaning of the Book, hidden under its literal interpretation. The contemporary world leaves most of us little time and less encouragement to seek out the interior meaning of our lives or of the world around us. The literal forms of religion lead to fundamentalism, and science, powerful and necessary though it is, cannot by itself give meaning to our lives. So our only recourse is the exercise of our creative imagination to rediscover the "Lost Speech." This evening we will try to understand how poetry, prayer and acts of imagination can open us to the worlds within and around us. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:24:40 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:24:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. In other words, how useful is it to understand how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading list" rather than a "usable past"? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 17:09:52 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:09:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> When I think of Charles Olson?s poetics I think of how a bear fishes for salmon during the spawning run. There is a lot splashing about, paws swiping at the rushing waters, headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. In other words, how useful is it to understand how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading list" rather than a "usable past"? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 3 17:14:19 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:14:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: <8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. The thing about Olson is that even when he's dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >When I think of Charles Olson???s poetics I >think of how a bear fishes for salmon during the >spawning run. There is a lot splashing about, >paws swiping at the rushing waters, headlong >lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. > >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Catherine Daly >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&,Views >Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" > >Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets >to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list >in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. > >In other words, how useful is it to understand >how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, >Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading >list" rather than a "usable past"? > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 17:33:06 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:33:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> >From that same blog, here's a book I'm not familiar with, re Jung in Olson's writing. A friend of mine in the area considers Charles Stein his mentor, so I think I check it out... http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/secret-of-black-chrysanthemum-corbin.html Has anyone got a look a Jung's Red Book? I balked at the price after I asked about it at my local B&N. http://www.rmanyc.org/theredbook Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. The thing about Olson is that even when he's dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: When I think of Charles Olson???s poetics I think of how a bear fishes for salmon during the spawning run. There is a lot splashing about, paws swiping at the rushing waters, headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. In other words, how useful is it to understand how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading list" rather than a "usable past"? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 3 17:46:29 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:46:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: <8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Stein's diss, and a thing of weird beauty it is. At 05:33 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: > From that same blog, here's a book I'm not > familiar with, re Jung in Olson's writing. A > friend of mine in the area considers Charles > Stein his mentor, so I think I check it out... >http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/secret-of-black-chrysanthemum-corbin.html > >Has anyone got a look a Jung's Red Book? I >balked at the price after I asked about it at my local B&N. >http://www.rmanyc.org/theredbook > >Finnegan >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views >Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" > >And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. > >The thing about Olson is that even when he's >dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. > >At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >>When I think of Charles Olson????s poetics I >>think of how a bear fishes fo for salmon during >>the spawning run. There is a lot splashing >>about, paws swiping at the rushing waters, >>headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. >> >>Finnegan >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly at gmail.com> >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&,Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >>Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" >> >>Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" >>gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics >>list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. >> >>In other words, how useful is it to understand >>how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond >>that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable >>reading list" rather than a "usable past"? >> >>-- >>All best, >>Catherine Daly >>c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 3 17:52:19 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:52:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query Message-ID: Anyone have Mike Kelleher's email address? Went down with the ship last time my computer capsized. B/c please. Thanks. Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 3 18:09:24 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:09:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] merry birthday to BOB ! In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002031016j235747e8v9ed5969a908842b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71002031016j235747e8v9ed5969a908842b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6A0224.1080901@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2010/02/merry-birthday-punxsutawney-grumman.html > Thanks for posting this, Anny. I'm (sob) still remembered! --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 20:04:43 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC734D2B416AFB-49D8-2FED@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> Slow at code be -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Stein's diss, and a thing of weird beauty it is. At 05:33 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >From that same blog, here's a book I'm not familiar with, re Jung in Olson's writing. A friend of mine in the area considers Charles Stein his mentor, so I think I check it out... http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/secret-of-black-chrysanthemum-corbin.html Has anyone got a look a Jung's Red Book? I balked at the price after I asked about it at my local B&N. http://www.rmanyc.org/theredbook Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. The thing about Olson is that even when he's dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: When I think of Charles Olson????s poetics I think of how a bear fishes fo for salmon during the spawning run. There is a lot splashing about, paws swiping at the rushing waters, headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. In other words, how useful is it to understand how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading list" rather than a "usable past"? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetryAnnouncing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 3 20:06:44 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:06:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com><8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC734D73AE3F48-49D8-3068@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> That last email escaped unbidden. Do you mean that was Chas. Stein's dissertation? I'm slow. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Stein's diss, and a thing of weird beauty it is. At 05:33 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >From that same blog, here's a book I'm not familiar with, re Jung in Olson's writing. A friend of mine in the area considers Charles Stein his mentor, so I think I check it out... http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/secret-of-black-chrysanthemum-corbin.html Has anyone got a look a Jung's Red Book? I balked at the price after I asked about it at my local B&N. http://www.rmanyc.org/theredbook Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. The thing about Olson is that even when he's dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: When I think of Charles Olson????s poetics I think of how a bear fishes fo for salmon during the spawning run. There is a lot splashing about, paws swiping at the rushing waters, headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" gets to what I briefly mentioned on the poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. In other words, how useful is it to understand how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable reading list" rather than a "usable past"? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetryAnnouncing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 3 20:11:16 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:11:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" In-Reply-To: <8CC734D73AE3F48-49D8-3068@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7316F5E77F80-47BC-2609@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC732A43AD9C37-496C-10F6@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7334BE5A0386-496C-2C77@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7337FD31C399-496C-339F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC734D73AE3F48-49D8-3068@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yup. Chuck is an old friend. Somewhere I have a copy from before he revised it for the book. At 08:06 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >That last email escaped unbidden. Do you mean >that was Chas. Stein's dissertation? I'm slow. >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views >Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:46 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" > >Stein's diss, and a thing of weird beauty it is. > >At 05:33 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >> From that same blog, here's a book I'm not >> familiar with, re Jung in Olson's writing. A >> friend of mine in the area considers Charles >> Stein his mentor, so I think I check it out... >>http://henrycorbinproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/secret-of-black-chrysanthemum-corbin.html >> >> >>Has anyone got a look a Jung's Red Book? I >>balked at the price after I asked about it at my local B&N. >>http://www.rmanyc.org/theredbook >> >>Finnegan >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14 pm >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >>Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" >> >>And when there's no fish it's still fun playing in the river. >> >>The thing about Olson is that even when he's >>dead wrong, like about Mayan hieroglyphs, he's enormously thought-provoking. >> >>At 05:09 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: >>>When I think of Charles Olson??????s poetics I >>>think of how a bear fishes fo for salmalmon >>>during the spawning run. There is a lot >>>splashing about, paws swiping at the rushing >>>waters, headlong lunging into the shallows, but some nice fish do get caught. >>> >>>Finnegan >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly at gmail.com> >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>&,Views < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>>Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:24 pm >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Prayer as >>>Spiritual Practice: In Search of the "Lost Speech" >>> >>>Beltway indeed; this idea of "circumvallum" >>>gets to what I briefly mentioned on the >>>poetics list in regards to Olson and Alfred North Whitehead. >>> >>>In other words, how useful is it to understand >>>how Olson misunderstood Corbin, or, beyond >>>that, Islamic mysticism? Is this a "usable >>>reading list" rather than a "usable past"? >>> >>>-- >>>All best, >>>Catherine Daly >>>c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 11:33:12 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:33:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hamilton Stone Review #20 now online Message-ID: *Hamilton Stone Review #20 now online* Poetry by Matthew DeBord, Elizabeth Dodd, Steve Ely, Susan Firer, Jeff Gundy, James Hazard, Jane Hilberry, Christine Holland, George Kalamaras, Karen Kovacik, Mercedes Lawry, Alison Luterman, David Mason, Christine Rhein, Elaine Sexton, Sean Singer, Joe Somoza, Bert Stern, Richard Stolorow, Chase Twichell, Mark Young, and Harriet Zinnes; * *Fiction by Jack Dowling, Beverly Gologorsky, Sybil Kollar, Jocelyn Lieu, and Miguel Antonio Ortiz; Nonfiction by Sherisse Alvarez, CL Bledsoe, Clyde L. Borg, Chris Echaurre, Christina Holzhauser, Randall Horton, Ingrid Hughes, Jim McGarrah, Meg Morley, and Peter Stensen. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 5 15:10:56 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:10:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the goddess and the poet Message-ID: <8CC74B6762EE340-3EB8-20B0@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> Len Steckler, who shot the black-and-white images of Monroe when she unexpectedly arrived at his apartment to see Pulitzer-prize winning poet Sandburg... http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2010/02/05/marilyn-monroe-amazing-never-seen-before-photos-of-the-late-lamented-hollywood-sex-siren-115875-22021437/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri Feb 5 15:33:40 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:33:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the goddess and the poet In-Reply-To: <8CC74B6762EE340-3EB8-20B0@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC74B6762EE340-3EB8-20B0@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002051233p47d6040ehc60ea76825362d68@mail.gmail.com> And I thought it referred to Harriet Monroe. On 5 February 2010 15:10, wrote: > Len Steckler, who shot the black-and-white images of Monroe when she > unexpectedly arrived at his apartment to see Pulitzer-prize winning poet > Sandburg... > > > http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2010/02/05/marilyn-monroe-amazing-never-seen-before-photos-of-the-late-lamented-hollywood-sex-siren-115875-22021437/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 17:11:04 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 23:11:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the goddess and the poet In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002051233p47d6040ehc60ea76825362d68@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC74B6762EE340-3EB8-20B0@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b1002051233p47d6040ehc60ea76825362d68@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002051411i4e6377fcxcfc9f519f7a718a1@mail.gmail.com> What a wonderful woman, she still holds all the canons of beauty for me. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > And I thought it referred to Harriet Monroe. > > > On 5 February 2010 15:10, wrote: > >> Len Steckler, who shot the black-and-white images of Monroe when she >> unexpectedly arrived at his apartment to see Pulitzer-prize winning poet >> Sandburg... >> >> >> http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2010/02/05/marilyn-monroe-amazing-never-seen-before-photos-of-the-late-lamented-hollywood-sex-siren-115875-22021437/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 5 18:49:04 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:49:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] walden haiku In-Reply-To: <8CC74BC124809CE-3EB8-2D53@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC74BC124809CE-3EB8-2D53@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC74D4EF0D7B32-2F60-526E@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com> West meets East in a new book that rewrites Thoreau?s classic work in haiku form, reviving the glorious imagery of "Walden." http://www.pri.org/arts-entertainment/books/walden-by-haiku1845.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sat Feb 6 10:40:03 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 07:40:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is What a [Feminist] Poet Looks Like Message-ID: <319378.39270.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >From Delirious Hem today -- Artist-as-Mother/Mother-as-Artist: A Metaphorical Resurrection -- Kristen Kaschock http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/kirsten-kaschock-2.html ?My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp? -- Amy King http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html Featuring: Monday, February 1: Ching-In Chen, Jennifer Bartlett, & Kate Durbin Tuesday, February 2: Juliet Cook & Kate Schapira Wednesday, February 3: Kirsten Kaschock & Michele Battiste Thursday, February 4: Michelle Detorie & Stephanie Strickland Friday, February 5: T.A. Noonan & Theodora Danylevich Saturday, February 6: Amy King & Kirsten Kaschock 2 http://delirioushem.blogspot.com Enjoy! Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut -- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 6 11:10:18 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:10:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty Message-ID: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/books/05book.html?ref=books There are 15 or 20 better poets in America than Tony Hoagland, but few deliver more pure pleasure. His erudite comic poems are backloaded with heartache and longing, and they function, emotionally, like improvised explosive devices: the pain comes at you from the cruelest angles, on the sunniest of days. Mr. Hoagland?s previous collection, ?What Narcissism Means to Me? (2003), for example, contains a bristling poem about wine tasting that falls away to these plaintive lines, which I?ve never forgotten: But where is the Cabernet of rent checks and asthma medication? Where is the Burgundy of orthopedic shoes? Where is the Chablis of skinned knees and jelly sandwiches? with the aftertaste of cruel Little League coaches? and the undertone of rusty stationwagon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 11:36:43 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 10:36:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> On Feb 6, 2010, at 10:10 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > There are 15 or 20 better poets in America than Tony Hoagland, but few deliver more pure pleasure. ----------------------------- I like the Hoagland review, as I enjoy Hoagland's poetry, but statements like the one above drive me nuts. They are, for starters, completely meaningless while also being completely smug. I hate delphic pronouncements in general, which are always, always utterly unsupported. And usually, as in this instance, they deliberately avoid naming names. If there are merely 15 or 20 who are "better" than Hoagland, OK then, spell them out so readers can evaluate your taste! Hell, name two! There's a parallel argument that shows up frequently in the usual "poetry is dead" articles that spring up regularly like dandelions, in which the author looks archly at the AWP directory, or at the table of contents of The Best American Poetry or some such, and remarks with magisterial gravity that "there are only five or six *true* poets at any given historical moment. . . ." OK, then, I always think. Show me. Name the five and take your stand. Otherwise, take your hot air elsewhere. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sat Feb 6 12:30:39 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:30:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty Message-ID: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> I would say more than fifteen or twenty, but I think Hoagland has been cruising for a while. I do agree, however, with what David says here. This is the sort of statement that doesn't mean anything unless some names are named. If for no other reason, it would give readers a sense of the reviewer's aesthetic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 12:41:53 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 18:41:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> Agreed. I would add that it is a form of cheap journalism with pre-packed sentences, and it disturbs me a lot. I can name a couple of journalists who can boast an entire vocabulary they vent out at any and all occasions. On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:30 PM, wrote: > I would say more than fifteen or twenty, but I think Hoagland has been > cruising for a while. I do agree, however, with what David says here. This > is the sort of statement that doesn't mean anything unless some names are > named. If for no other reason, it would give readers a sense of the > reviewer's aesthetic. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 6 12:53:47 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:53:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. Can you and I and others agree, after all, without throwing a Grummanian wordfit, that there really are only 15 or 20 True Poets....and that it is NOT a subjective opinion? What was all that analysing we did [ok, you didnae do it with me and Bob and Barry Espax, preferring to keep your judgements hid from us, just as 99% of this list did, tho there were several lurkers who were lured in by the frustration with us and our analysings]? At the time, I recall summarising my own learnings attendant on the analysing: *Folk hugely disagree on what a poem is saying*, tho not so much on what makes good poetry. Sorry for the ramblingesque message; it's ice cream-making time with the 6 yr old twin grandboys here and we're all due to eat brunch in downtown L.A. asap! Best, Judy On 6 February 2010 11:36, David Graham wrote: > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 10:10 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > There are 15 or 20 better poets in America than Tony Hoagland, but few > deliver more pure pleasure. > > ----------------------------- > > I like the Hoagland review, as I enjoy Hoagland's poetry, but statements > like the one above drive me nuts. They are, for starters, completely > meaningless while also being completely smug. I hate delphic pronouncements > in general, which are always, always utterly unsupported. And usually, as > in this instance, they deliberately avoid naming names. If there are merely > 15 or 20 who are "better" than Hoagland, OK then, spell them out so readers > can evaluate your taste! Hell, name two! > > There's a parallel argument that shows up frequently in the usual "poetry > is dead" articles that spring up regularly like dandelions, in which the > author looks archly at the AWP directory, or at the table of contents of The > Best American Poetry or some such, and remarks with magisterial gravity that > "there are only five or six *true* poets at any given historical moment. . . > ." > > OK, then, I always think. Show me. Name the five and take your stand. > Otherwise, take your hot air elsewhere. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 12:58:35 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:58:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] True Poets In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <019AEC28-08AB-4D6A-A353-55549DE03D86@ripon.edu> No, I'm afraid I can't agree that there are only 15 or 20 True Poets at this moment. Sorry, Judy! Nor do I think we would ever come remotely close to agreeing on what a Good Poem is. As I believe conversation on this list has abundantly suggested over many years. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. > > Can you and I and others agree, after all, without throwing a Grummanian wordfit, that there really are only 15 or 20 True Poets....and that it is NOT a subjective opinion? What was all that analysing we did [ok, you didnae do it with me and Bob and Barry Espax, preferring to keep your judgements hid from us, just as 99% of this list did, tho there were several lurkers who were lured in by the frustration with us and our analysings]? At the time, I recall summarising my own learnings attendant on the analysing: Folk hugely disagree on what a poem is saying, tho not so much on what makes good poetry. > > Sorry for the ramblingesque message; it's ice cream-making time with the 6 yr old twin grandboys here and we're all due to eat brunch in downtown L.A. asap! > > Best, > > Judy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 13:30:34 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:30:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> <4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Agreed. I would add that it is a form of cheap journalism with > pre-packed sentences, and it disturbs me a lot. I can name a couple of > journalists who can boast an entire vocabulary they vent out at any > and all occasions. Well, I often say without naming them that there are dozens of better poets than the mediocrities in some collection of "best" poems or other--though only on the Internet, not in an article supposed to be more responsible. One needs to be allowed one's near-meaningless expressions of disdain from what one considers crap--just as one should be and seems always to be allowed semi-meaningless gush about poets one admires. What, for instance, if someone said Hoagland is among the twenty best poets in America? That would annoy me because it suggests the person claiming it knows the work of all the poets in America. I would have no trouble with "Hoagland is, in my opinion, among the twenty best poets in American with whom I'm familiar," though. I would add that if a critic makes a remark like the remark we're discussing, then gives us a sample of the work of the poet he's discussing, he need not name those who are better than the poet--the reader can read the sample and decide for himself whether the reviewer is right or not on the basis of his own knowledge of American poetry. --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 6 13:28:22 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:28:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] True Poets In-Reply-To: <019AEC28-08AB-4D6A-A353-55549DE03D86@ripon.edu> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> <019AEC28-08AB-4D6A-A353-55549DE03D86@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002061028k6655fd87l60733b8f626d80b@mail.gmail.com> Who said "at this moment"----surely not me! And, yeah, bcuz I've never heard [having been on this list less than 2 years] what you think a Good Poem is, it makes logic that we would never come close to agreeing on such. Shame, that. Is it impossible then to SUMMARISE what you think is a Good Poem [seems a trifle stupid to talk about Good Poets, as I feel that the Very Few Good Poets [no, Fine Poets] do not write many Fine Poems, yet there works prolly yield more Good Poems than the 99% of Non-Fine Poets's poems yield. No apologies, please. We do not agree because I do not know what you think. Do you truly feel that we WOULD not agree even if I knew what you thought about what makes or what is a Fine Poem? That would be unreasonable, and you would be assuming either that I am unteachable, an idiot, a 'tin-eared' phoney.....or I would assume that you do not wish to teach me. Best, Ever eager to learn and to be taught, Judy now truly going for lunch in downtown L.A. with the grandtwinboys, named Langston Christopher Tongsuthi Prince and William Jasper Tongsuthi Prince On 6 February 2010 12:58, David Graham wrote: > No, I'm afraid I can't agree that there are only 15 or 20 True Poets at > this moment. Sorry, Judy! Nor do I think we would ever come remotely close > to agreeing on what a Good Poem is. > > As I believe conversation on this list has abundantly suggested over many > years. . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > > I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed > rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those idiots > state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. > > Can you and I and others agree, after all, without throwing a Grummanian > wordfit, that there really are only 15 or 20 True Poets....and that it is > NOT a subjective opinion? What was all that analysing we did [ok, you > didnae do it with me and Bob and Barry Espax, preferring to keep your > judgements hid from us, just as 99% of this list did, tho there were several > lurkers who were lured in by the frustration with us and our analysings]? > At the time, I recall summarising my own learnings attendant on the > analysing: *Folk hugely disagree on what a poem is saying*, tho not so > much on what makes good poetry. > > Sorry for the ramblingesque message; it's ice cream-making time with the 6 > yr old twin grandboys here and we're all due to eat brunch in downtown L.A. > asap! > > Best, > > Judy > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 13:39:13 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:39:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed > rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those > idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm not familiar with the work of every poet in the country. A more interesting question--at least a question easier to grapple with--is how many great American poets wrote the majority of their best poems between 1900 and 1950. I bet that if everyone who visits New-Poetry were to vote on this, 15 to 20 poets would get votes from 75% or them, and no other more than the percent of the vote. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 13:47:47 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:47:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n-but.net> References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com><4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6DB953.1040903@nut-n-but.net> I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing that is true of every good poem? How about every good poem is capable of yielding some meaning to the great majority of those who read it (and know something about poetry and give it a fair chance)? In other words, a good poem is coherent-- in some way.. How about every good poem says or does something that no other poem does? (This does not mean that every poem that says or does something that no other poem does is a good poem.) --Bob From afilreis at writing.upenn.edu Sat Feb 6 13:55:05 2010 From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu (Al Filreis) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:55:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! Message-ID: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al Filreis Dear friends: We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very exciting. By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have put out 40 issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what John recalls as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, one of the earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite rare for its consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, the contents awesomely voluminous, the slant international modernist and experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of intense every- single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive of thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course be available on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But the magazine is not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a new home, extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and its continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers House and PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive of audio recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, is seen as a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is the relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for day-to- day poetic interchange of all kinds. The synergy in this three-way relationship has great potential. Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of the Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor will be Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of PennSound) and the new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be available as Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate Editor. More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. Meantime, the Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of poetics do -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work they've done. And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket will be preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new mode but with a continuous mission and approach. - John Tranter & Al Filreis http://jackemagazine.com links: Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ & http://writing.upenn.edu/ Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM Kelly Writers House Director Jessica Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 13:57:01 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:57:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002061057i3b927e2fo34c679d51f2bc8cc@mail.gmail.com> Do you have a file of statements that you cut & paste? Perhaps a macro built into your email program so that you don't have to write the same things ad nauseum? The notion of a "True Poet" is incredibly problematic, given the problem of defining "poetry," which is yet another reason, Bob, that one simply cannot quantify art. Sure, you can build a library of neologisms that describe what *you *like about *certain kinds *of poetry, but you can't measure a reader's emotional response to a work of art. I mean, I suppose you could set up some kind of meter that might read pulse rate and so forth and perhaps attribute those changes to a work of art. But, my goodness, what would that get you? What's the upshot? What's the point? Yes--there are probably a group of poets whose "best work" was written between 1900 & 1950, just as there is a group of poets whose "best work" was written between 1850 & 1900. But, then again, when you fetishize "newness" and make a box of tinker toys out of "poetic techniques," then I suppose, your view of poetry tends to be a necessarily mechanistic. I guess, as usual, we come to an impasse, Bob. You see art as measurable (& thus mechanical, a product of assembly). I see it as organic, connected to something ineffable, something beyond (to use David Graham's appropriate phrase) Delphic pronouncements. Jeff Newberry On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Judy Prince wrote: > >> I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed >> rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those idiots >> state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. >> > I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm not familiar with > the work of every poet in the country. A more interesting question--at > least a question easier to grapple with--is how many great American poets > wrote the majority of their best poems between 1900 and 1950. I bet that if > everyone who visits New-Poetry were to vote on this, 15 to 20 poets would > get votes from 75% or them, and no other more than the percent of the vote. > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Feb 6 13:58:02 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:58:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! In-Reply-To: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> References: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <4B6DBBBA.10009@opus40.org> Congratulations. Al Filreis wrote: > *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al Filreis* > > > Dear friends: > > We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very exciting. > > By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have put out 40 > issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what John recalls > as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, one of the > earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite rare for its > consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, the contents > awesomely voluminous, the slant international modernist and > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of intense > every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive of > thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the University > of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course be available > on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But the magazine is > not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. > > Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a new home, > extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and its > continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers House and > PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive of audio > recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, is seen as > a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is the > relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for > day-to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The synergy in this > three-way relationship has great potential. > > Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of the > Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor will be > Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of PennSound) and the > new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be available as > Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate Editor. > > More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. Meantime, the > Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of poetics do > -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work they've done. > And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket will be > preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new mode but with a > continuous mission and approach. > > - John Tranter & Al Filreis > http://jackemagazine.com > > > links: > > Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > Al Filreis > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > Al Filreis > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 14:01:10 2010 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:01:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! In-Reply-To: <4B6DBBBA.10009@opus40.org> References: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> <4B6DBBBA.10009@opus40.org> Message-ID: Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the best poetry sites on the net. David Graham Grahamd at Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > Congratulations. > > Al Filreis wrote: >> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al Filreis* >> >> >> Dear friends: >> >> We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very exciting. >> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have put out 40 >> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what John >> recalls as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, >> one of the earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite >> rare for its consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, >> the contents awesomely voluminous, the slant international >> modernist and experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) >> >> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of intense >> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive of >> thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the >> University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course >> be available on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But >> the magazine is not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. >> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a new home, >> extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and its >> continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers House >> and PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. >> The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive of audio >> recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, is seen >> as a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is the >> relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for day- >> to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The synergy in this three- >> way relationship has great potential. >> >> Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of the >> Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor will be >> Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of PennSound) and >> the new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be available >> as Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate Editor. >> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. Meantime, >> the Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of >> poetics do -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work >> they've done. And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that >> Jacket will be preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat >> new mode but with a continuous mission and approach. >> >> - John Tranter & Al Filreis >> http://jackemagazine.com >> >> >> links: >> >> Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ > > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ >> >> Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ >> 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM >> >> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ >> >> Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php >> >> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php >> >> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ >> >> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ >> >> Al Filreis >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > >> >> >> Al Filreis >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > >> >> >> >> >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 14:01:05 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:01:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the Late Honda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b1002060953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, of course. Like, "when did so and so write that?" "Will I forget Oppen, who we associate with the period but wrote his best work afterwards? What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote better than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best work is post 1950." So maybe the experiment needs a few more controls for variables. In future we might require that all poets die at the end of a decade. So much more convenient. Best, Mark At 01:39 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >Judy Prince wrote: >>I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your frustrationed >>rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel exactly as those >>idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 True Poets. >I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm not familiar >with the work of every poet in the country. A more interesting >question--at least a question easier to grapple with--is how many >great American poets wrote the majority of their best poems between >1900 and 1950. I bet that if everyone who visits New-Poetry were to >vote on this, 15 to 20 poets would get votes from 75% or them, and >no other more than the percent of the vote. >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 14:03:31 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:03:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! In-Reply-To: References: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> <4B6DBBBA.10009@opus40.org> Message-ID: Too big to fail now? Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Graham, David wrote: > Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the best poetry sites on > the net. > > David Graham > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > > Congratulations. >> >> Al Filreis wrote: >> >>> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al Filreis* >>> >>> >>> Dear friends: >>> >>> We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very exciting. >>> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have put out 40 >>> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what John recalls as >>> "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, one of the earliest >>> in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite rare for its consistency over >>> the years. "The design is beautiful, the contents awesomely voluminous, the >>> slant international modernist and experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) >>> >>> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of intense >>> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive of >>> thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the University of >>> Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course be available on the >>> internet to everyone, for free, as always. But the magazine is not ceasing >>> publication: quite the opposite. >>> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a new home, extra >>> staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and its continuation, >>> Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers House and PennSound at the >>> University of Pennsylvania. >>> The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive of audio >>> recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, is seen as a >>> valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is the relationship with >>> busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for day-to-day poetic interchange >>> of all kinds. The synergy in this three-way relationship has great >>> potential. >>> >>> Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of the Writers >>> House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor will be Michael S. >>> Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of PennSound) and the new Managing >>> Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be available as Founding Editor, and >>> Pam will continue as Associate Editor. >>> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. Meantime, the >>> Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of poetics do -- to >>> John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work they've done. And John, for >>> his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket will be preserved and will >>> continue and grow in a somewhat new mode but with a continuous mission and >>> approach. >>> >>> - John Tranter & Al Filreis >>> http://jackemagazine.com >>> >>> >>> links: >>> >>> Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/< >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis/> & http://writing.upenn.edu/ >>> >>> Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ >>> 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM >>> >>> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica Lowenthal: >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ >>> >>> Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php >>> >>> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php >>> >>> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ >>> >>> Al Filreis >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis> >>> >>> >>> Al Filreis >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 14:06:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:06:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6DB953.1040903@nut-n-but.net> References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> <4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DB953.1040903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of great ones, because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre ones challenge our sense of coherence. For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem convinces us that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, in territory he or she has never visited before. Best, Mark At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing >that is true of every good poem? > >How about every good poem is capable of yielding >some meaning to the great majority of those who read >it (and know something about poetry and give it a fair >chance)? In other words, a good poem is coherent-- >in some way.. > >How about every good poem says or does something >that no other poem does? (This does not mean that >every poem that says or does something that no other >poem does is a good poem.) > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Feb 6 14:11:54 2010 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <201002061700.o16H063A024008@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > that is true of every good poem? Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 14:51:19 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:51:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com> <4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DB953.1040903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It's a cold cold day in New York, and we're expecting a couple of inches of snow. Which gives rise to thoughts of Tucson and the Blue Speckled Tepary Beans from Native Seeds Search that Cynthia Alexander bought for me and Charles Alexander delivered it must be a year ago. A good day for beans, now soaking, to which I'll add a couple of dried ancho chiles, a ham hock, some spicy turkey sausage, and a few more things. There's a fennel root and some fresh parsley in the fridge, and my rosemary plant needs trimming or will take over the apartment. Yum. On the package that the beans came in is writ: "This beautiful blue tepary bean with dark blue flecks has wonderful texture and tastes very similar to the brown tepary." Maybe true, maybe not, but here's some of what I find problematic. 1. The implication is that brown teparies are the touchstone, as anybody worth talking to can immediately summon their taste to mind. 2. The wonder of a texture is always arguable. Is the texture of the blue speckled tepary wonderful by its very nature, or have we been taught to value one texture over another? Can we say that a particular texture is more useful, or more useful for a given purpose in a given context, hence "wonderful"? 3. Just as there seems to be an implied hierarchy of cognoscenti, there's an implied hierarchy of beans. Why is the writer not declaring his taste by presenting a list? 4. Note my assumption about the gender of the writer, which is in turn based on an assumption of gender-based norms of discourse that may or may not be culturally-derived. 5. There's an implied universality to "tastes very similar" that at first glance seems at odds with the implied hierarchical thinking of the rest of the statement. Is this a democratic impulse, a levelling, an imagining of a world in which there are no becs fin for whom the tastes are so radically different that to imagine sameness is unimaginable? Or is this simply an extension of the delineation of "us" versus "them?" The proof is in the tasting. I hope this is helpful. Best, Mark At 02:06 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of great ones, >because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre ones challenge >our sense of coherence. > >For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem convinces us >that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, in territory >he or she has never visited before. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >>I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing >>that is true of every good poem? >> >>How about every good poem is capable of yielding >>some meaning to the great majority of those who read >>it (and know something about poetry and give it a fair >>chance)? In other words, a good poem is coherent-- > > > >>in some way.. >> >>How about every good poem says or does something >>that no other poem does? (This does not mean that >>every poem that says or does something that no other >>poem does is a good poem.) >> >>--Bob >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 14:53:37 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 20:53:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! In-Reply-To: References: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D@writing.upenn.edu> <4B6DBBBA.10009@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002061153u6454a443nd78ecbc56fdc1570@mail.gmail.com> Yes, congratulations! I already congratulated Pam Brown. A wonderful merge. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 15:47:40 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:47:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: >> I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing >> that is true of every good poem? > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor =================================== Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: Every Good POET Deserves Fudge I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 15:56:35 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:56:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the LateHonda Dynasty In-Reply-To: References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, of course. > Like, "when did so and so write that?" Pretty trivial problem, seems to me, but--yes--worth solving. Here's a start: every poet whose best work almost everyone would agree was first PUBLISHED between 1900 and 1950 or who was alive at some time during that period but died before 1950. > "Will I forget Oppen, who we associate with the period but wrote his > best work afterwards? Sure. If so, he'll be part of the later 1950 to 2000 evaluation, or maybe a 1925 to 1975 evaluation. The project would be based on the premise that fifty years at least are needed to evaluate the value of a poet's work. > What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote better > than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best work is > post 1950." As above. > So maybe the experiment needs a few more controls for variables. > > In future we might require that all poets die at the end of a decade. > So much more convenient. A more sophisticated investigation might go day by day, the question being, "Of all the American poets alive on this day, who were the best ten, or twenty, or whatever, from top to bottom, based on what was known of their work to that point," then use some kind formula to rate all the poets between 1900 and 1950, or the like--for instance--add up a poet's rank for each day of his life, then divide by the number of days he lived. . . . Or just use his best hundred days. It would be hard to work up anything exact but I think the results would be interesting and a lot closer to objective than anything we have now. Of course, any procedure is for non-nihilists--people who believe knowledge is possible. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 15:55:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:55:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002061255n4ff0d778xd48e3c5d3dea8580@mail.gmail.com> Lovely! Correction included, :-) On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:47 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > that is true of every good poem? > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > =================================== > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: > > Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 16:06:00 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:06:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <27f0a.6b8313ec.389f013f@aol.com><4b65c2d71002060941g2b0e12fdo4fb056df53201033@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB54A.7080801@nut-n -but.net> <4B6DB953.1040903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6DD9B8.6010205@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of great ones, > because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre ones challenge > our sense of coherence. I'm talking about being coherent. Surely every good poem must be in some sense coherent? Sure, we might be able to finally to find exactly how coherent and incoherent a good poem should be but I'm starting at the base. To me an incoherent poem is valueless. > > For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem convinces us that > the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, in territory he or > she has never visited before. I can't agree with this at all. Wouldn't that mean that five-year-olds are writing most of our best poems? --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 16:02:45 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:02:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does Fine. At 03:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > >>>I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing >>>that is true of every good poem? >> >>Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge >> >> >> >>Be well >> >>David Baratier, Editor >=================================== > >Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: > > Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > >I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 16:03:50 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:03:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the LateHonda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <0587E49D-C6FE-4A93-9D30-395541F238B6@ripon.edu> On Feb 6, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > It would be hard to work up anything exact but I think the results would be interesting and a lot closer to objective than anything we have now. Of course, any procedure is for non-nihilists--people who believe knowledge is possible. > > --Bob =========================== Here's my vote for Understatement of The Year: "It would be hard to work up anything exact...." Dya think????? Being reluctant to work up a logical scale by which apples can be compared to oranges, with assumed consensus upon *both* scale and results--when did finding this pipe dream turn into nihilism? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 16:05:41 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:05:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does Fine. ====================== Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with this as refrain line? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 16:12:14 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the LateHondaDynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> I wonder if any other vocation's practitioners more fear to be evaluated than poetry. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 16:10:08 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:10:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the LateHonda Dynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It's very hard for me to stay serious in these discussions, but maybe I can manage for a few seconds. 1. You seem, as usual, to be conflating knowledge with stasis. We live in process, and so does our knowledge. Some values are fluid. 2. Best may be the wrong term, the more so as the responder is more intimately involved with the practice. A better question might be "which poets [of a given period] do you find most useful at the moment." Th th that's all folks! I can feel that monkey rising. Mark At 03:56 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, of course. >>Like, "when did so and so write that?" >Pretty trivial problem, seems to me, but--yes--worth >solving. Here's a start: every poet whose best work almost everyone >would agree was first PUBLISHED between 1900 and 1950 or who was >alive at some time during that period but died before 1950. > >>"Will I forget Oppen, who we associate with the period but wrote >>his best work afterwards? >Sure. If so, he'll be part of the later 1950 to 2000 evaluation, or >maybe a 1925 to 1975 evaluation. The project would be based on the >premise that fifty years at least are needed to evaluate the value >of a poet's work. > >>What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote better >>than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best work >>is post 1950." >As above. >> So maybe the experiment needs a few more controls for variables. >> >>In future we might require that all poets die at the end of a >>decade. So much more convenient. >A more sophisticated investigation might go day by day, the question >being, "Of all the American poets alive on this day, who were the >best ten, or twenty, or whatever, from top to bottom, based on what >was known of their work to that point," then use some kind formula >to rate all the poets between 1900 and 1950, or the like--for >instance--add up a poet's rank for each day of his life, then divide >by the number of days he lived. . . . Or just use his best hundred days. > >It would be hard to work up anything exact but I think the results >would be interesting and a lot closer to objective than anything we have now. >Of course, any procedure is for non-nihilists--people who believe >knowledge is possible. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 6 16:14:58 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing that is true of every good poem? Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge Be well David Baratier, Editor =================================== Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: Every Good POET Deserves Fudge I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 16:15:32 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:15:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nihil obstat In-Reply-To: <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <96E6E286-CC79-4901-A285-1CCCDA38ADE5@ripon.edu> On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I wonder if any other vocation's practitioners more fear to be evaluated than poetry. > --Bob > _______________________________________________ Speaking for myself, I don't fear being evaluated. I am not particularly interested, even so, in arguing about which stupidly reductive schema produces the "best" results. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 16:22:42 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:22:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in theLateHondaDynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com><5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><7db1d01b10020 60953o15db8e05ye19f185c9415ad2e@mail.gmail.com><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6DDDA2.8090103@nut-n-but.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > I wonder if any other vocation's practitioners more fear to be > evaluated than poetry. > --Bob The really funny thing is that I think I'm posting something that will interest poets when I forget myself as I have today here. I'm so egocentric that I assume that just because I have an analytical intelligence, everyone does. --Bob From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:05 2010 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:29:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <201002061911.o16JBW3A025580@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <462870.36504.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote better > than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best work is > post 1950." Don't you mainly mean work _published_ post 1950. With the strokes, at best, Williams wrote for five years in the 50's. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --- On Sat, 2/6/10, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 7:11 PM > Send New-Poetry mailing list > submissions to > ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ???1. Jacket - news! (Al Filreis) > ???2. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > in the Late Honda > ? ? ? Dynasty (Jeff Newberry) > ???3. Re: Jacket - news! (TheOldMole) > ???4. Jacket - news! (Graham, David) > ???5. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > in the Late??? Honda > ? ? ? Dynasty (Mark Weiss) > ???6. Re: Jacket - news! (Halvard Johnson) > ???7. Re: What A Good Poem Is (Mark Weiss) > ???8. Re: What A Good Poem Is (David > Baratier) > ???9. Re: What A Good Poem Is (Mark Weiss) > ? 10. Re: Jacket - news! (Anny Ballardini) > ? 11. Re: Re: What A Good Poem Is (David Graham) > ? 12. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the > LateHonda > ? ? ? Dynasty (Bob Grumman) > ? 13. Re: Re: What A Good Poem Is (Anny Ballardini) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:55:05 -0500 > From: Al Filreis > Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D at writing.upenn.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al > Filreis > > > Dear friends: > > We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very > exciting. > > By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have > put out 40? > issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what > John recalls? > as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, > one of the? > earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite rare > for its? > consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, the > contents? > awesomely voluminous, the slant international modernist > and? > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of > intense every- > single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive > of? > thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the > University? > of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course be > available? > on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But the > magazine is? > not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. > > Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a > new home,? > extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and > its? > continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers > House and? > PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive > of audio? > recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, > is seen as? > a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is > the? > relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue > for day-to- > day poetic interchange of all kinds. The synergy in this > three-way? > relationship has great potential. > > Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of > the? > Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor > will be? > Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > PennSound) and the? > new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > available as? > Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate > Editor. > > More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. > Meantime, the? > Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of > poetics do? > -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work > they've done.? > And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket > will be? > preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new mode > but with a? > continuous mission and approach. > > - John Tranter & Al Filreis > ???http://jackemagazine.com > > > links: > > Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/? > &? ? http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > ? ? ? 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA > 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > Kelly Writers House Director Jessica Lowenthal:? http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > Al Filreis > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > Al Filreis > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/d06bc124/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:57:01 -0500 > From: Jeff Newberry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > in the > ??? Late Honda ??? Dynasty > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <731bb17a1002061057i3b927e2fo34c679d51f2bc8cc at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Do you have a file of statements that you cut & > paste?? Perhaps a macro > built into your email program so that you don't have to > write the same > things ad nauseum? > > The notion of a "True Poet" is incredibly problematic, > given the problem of > defining "poetry," which is yet another reason, Bob, that > one simply cannot > quantify art.? Sure, you can build a library of > neologisms that describe > what *you *like about *certain kinds *of poetry, but you > can't measure a > reader's emotional response to a work of art.? I mean, > I suppose you could > set up some kind of meter that might read pulse rate and so > forth and > perhaps attribute those changes to a work of art.? > But, my goodness, what > would that get you?? What's the upshot?? What's > the point? > > Yes--there are probably a group of poets whose "best work" > was written > between 1900 & 1950, just as there is a group of poets > whose "best work" was > written between 1850 & 1900.? But, then again, > when you fetishize "newness" > and make a box of tinker toys out of "poetic techniques," > then I suppose, > your view of poetry tends to be a necessarily mechanistic. > > I guess, as usual, we come to an impasse, Bob.? You > see art as measurable (& > thus mechanical, a product of assembly).? I see it as > organic, connected to > something ineffable, something beyond (to use David > Graham's appropriate > phrase) Delphic pronouncements. > > Jeff Newberry > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Judy Prince wrote: > > > >> I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your > frustrationed > >> rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel > exactly as those idiots > >> state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 > True Poets. > >> > > I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm > not familiar with > > the work of every poet in the country.? A more > interesting question--at > > least a question easier to grapple with--is how many > great American poets > > wrote the majority of their best poems between 1900 > and 1950.? I bet that if > > everyone who visits New-Poetry were to vote on this, > 15 to 20 poets would > > get votes from 75% or them, and no other more than the > percent of the vote. > >? --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them > parables; and that > is what art really is, particular stories of particular > people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate > and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed.... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/e39182b6/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:58:02 -0500 > From: TheOldMole > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: <4B6DBBBA.10009 at opus40.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Congratulations. > > Al Filreis wrote: > > *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter > and Al Filreis* > > > > > > Dear friends: > > > > We are writing with news of a transition we both deem > very exciting. > > > > By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will > have put out 40 > > issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in > what John recalls > > as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online > magazine, one of the > > earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite > rare for its > > consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, > the contents > > awesomely voluminous, the slant international > modernist and > > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > > > After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years > of intense > > every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the > entire archive of > > thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at > the University > > of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of > course be available > > on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But > the magazine is > > not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. > > > > Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will > have a new home, > > extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket > and its > > continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly > Writers House and > > PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > > > The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing > archive of audio > > recordings of poetry performance, discussion and > criticism, is seen as > > a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is > the > > relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively > venue for > > day-to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The > synergy in this > > three-way relationship has great potential. > > > > Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, > Director of the > > Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new > Editor will be > > Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > PennSound) and the > > new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > available as > > Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate > Editor. > > > > More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to > come. Meantime, the > > Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world > of poetics do > > -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work > they've done. > > And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that > Jacket will be > > preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new > mode but with a > > continuous mission and approach. > > > > - John Tranter & Al Filreis > >???http://jackemagazine.com > > > > > > links: > > > > Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ > > ? > &? ? http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > > > Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > >? ? ? 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA > 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > > > Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > > Lowenthal:? http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > > > Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > > > Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > > > Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > > > John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > > > Al Filreis > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > > > Al Filreis > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >??? > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:01:10 -0600 > From: "Graham, David" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain;??? > format=flowed;??? > delsp=yes;??? charset="us-ascii" > > Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the best > poetry sites? > on the net. > > David Graham > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" > wrote: > > > Congratulations. > > > > Al Filreis wrote: > >> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John > Tranter and Al Filreis* > >> > >> > >> Dear friends: > >> > >> We are writing with news of a transition we both > deem very exciting. > >> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown > will have put out 40? > >> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in > what John? > >> recalls as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early > all-online magazine,? > >> one of the earliest in the world of poetry and > poetics, and quite? > >> rare for its consistency over the years. "The > design is beautiful,? > >> the contents awesomely voluminous, the slant > international? > >> modernist and experimental." (So said _The > Guardian_.) > >> > >> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen > years of intense? > >> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the > entire archive of? > >> thousands of web pages will move intact to servers > at the? > >> University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where > it will of course? > >> be available on the internet to everyone, for > free, as always. But? > >> the magazine is not ceasing publication: quite the > opposite. > >> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will > have a new home,? > >> extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. > Jacket and its? > >> continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly > Writers House? > >> and PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > >> The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing > archive of audio? > >> recordings of poetry performance, discussion and > criticism, is seen? > >> as a valuable additional facet of the new > magazine, as is the? > >> relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a > lively venue for day- > >> to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The > synergy in this three- > >> way relationship has great potential. > >> > >> Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, > Director of the? > >> Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The > new Editor will be? > >> Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > PennSound) and? > >> the new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch.. John > will be available? > >> as Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as > Associate Editor. > >> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to > come. Meantime,? > >> the Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in > the world of? > >> poetics do -- to John and to Pam Brown for the > extraordinary work? > >> they've done. And John, for his part, is mightily > pleased that? > >> Jacket will be preserved and will continue and > grow in a somewhat? > >> new mode but with a continuous mission and > approach. > >> > >> - John Tranter & Al Filreis > >>? http://jackemagazine.com > >> > >> > >> links: > >> > >> Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn..edu/~afilreis/ >> >? &? ? http://writing.upenn.edu/ > >> > >> Kelly Writers House: http://www..writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > >>? ???3805 Locust Walk, > Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > >> > >> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > Lowenthal:? http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > >> > >> Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > >> > >> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > >> > >> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > >> > >> Al Filreis > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > >> > > >> > >> > >> Al Filreis > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > -- > > Tad Richards > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:01:05 -0500 > From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > in the > ??? Late??? Honda Dynasty > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, of > course. > Like, "when did so and so write that?" "Will I forget > Oppen, who we > associate with the period but wrote his best work > afterwards? What > about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote > better than > nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best > work is > post 1950."? So maybe the experiment needs a few more > controls for variables.. > > In future we might require that all poets die at the end of > a decade. > So much more convenient. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 01:39 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > >Judy Prince wrote: > >>I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your > frustrationed > >>rage......but then realise I do in my heart feel > exactly as those > >>idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 > or 20 True Poets. > >I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm > not familiar > >with the work of every poet in the country.? A > more interesting > >question--at least a question easier to grapple > with--is how many > >great American poets wrote the majority of their best > poems between > >1900 and 1950.? I bet that if everyone who visits > New-Poetry were to > >vote on this, 15 to 20 poets would get votes from 75% > or them, and > >no other more than the percent of the vote. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in > English. There is nothing else like > it."???John Palattella in The > Nation > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/d7411cd3/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:03:31 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Too big to fail now? > > Hal > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Graham, David > wrote: > > > Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the > best poetry sites on > > the net. > > > > David Graham > > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > > ------------------------ > > > > Home page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" > wrote: > > > >? Congratulations. > >> > >> Al Filreis wrote: > >> > >>> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John > Tranter and Al Filreis* > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear friends: > >>> > >>> We are writing with news of a transition we > both deem very exciting. > >>> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown > will have put out 40 > >>> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It > began in what John recalls as > >>> "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online > magazine, one of the earliest > >>> in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite > rare for its consistency over > >>> the years. "The design is beautiful, the > contents awesomely voluminous, the > >>> slant international modernist and > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > >>> > >>> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen > years of intense > >>> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and > the entire archive of > >>> thousands of web pages will move intact to > servers at the University of > >>> Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of > course be available on the > >>> internet to everyone, for free, as always. But > the magazine is not ceasing > >>> publication: quite the opposite. > >>> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket > will have a new home, extra > >>> staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket > and its continuation, > >>> Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers > House and PennSound at the > >>> University of Pennsylvania. > >>> The connection with PennSound, a vast and > growing archive of audio > >>> recordings of poetry performance, discussion > and criticism, is seen as a > >>> valuable additional facet of the new magazine, > as is the relationship with > >>> busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for > day-to-day poetic interchange > >>> of all kinds. The synergy in this three-way > relationship has great > >>> potential. > >>> > >>> Al will become Publisher and Jessica > Lowenthal, Director of the Writers > >>> House, will be Associate Publisher. The new > Editor will be Michael S. > >>> Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > PennSound) and the new Managing > >>> Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > available as Founding Editor, and > >>> Pam will continue as Associate Editor. > >>> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and > months to come. Meantime, the > >>> Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in > the world of poetics do -- to > >>> John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary > work they've done. And John, for > >>> his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket will > be preserved and will > >>> continue and grow in a somewhat new mode but > with a continuous mission and > >>> approach. > >>> > >>> - John Tranter & Al Filreis > >>>? http://jackemagazine.com > >>> > >>> > >>> links: > >>> > >>> Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/< > >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis/>? > &? ? http://writing.upenn.edu/ > >>> > >>> Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing..upenn.edu/wh/ > >>>? ? 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, > PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > >>> > >>> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > Lowenthal: > >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > >>> > >>> Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > >>> > >>> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > >>> > >>> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > >>> > >>> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > >>> > >>> Al Filreis > >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< > >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis> > >>> > >>> > >>> Al Filreis > >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< > >>> http://www.writing.upenn..edu/%7Eafilreis> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >>> > >> -- > >> Tad Richards > >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >> http://www..examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >> > >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/38e74cf6/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:06:12 -0500 > From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of great > ones, > because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre ones > challenge > our sense of coherence. > > For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem > convinces us > that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, in > territory > he or she has never visited before. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > >I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > >that is true of every good poem? > > > >How about every good poem is capable of yielding > >some meaning to the great majority of those who read > >it (and know something about poetry and give it a fair > >chance)?? In other words, a good poem is > coherent-- > > > > >in some way.. > > > >How about every good poem says or does something > >that no other poem does?? (This does not mean > that > >every poem that says or does something that no other > >poem does is a good poem.) > > > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt..edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in > English. There is nothing else like > it."???John Palattella in The > Nation > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/0cc6fbec/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) > From: David Baratier > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <783876.8300.qm at web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > that is true of every good poem? > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > Pavement Saw Press > 321 Empire Street > Montpelier OH 43543 > http://pavementsaw.org > > Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at > http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > > > ? ? ? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:51:19 -0500 > From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's a cold cold day in New York, and we're expecting a > couple of > inches of snow. Which gives rise to thoughts of Tucson and > the Blue > Speckled Tepary Beans from Native Seeds Search that Cynthia > Alexander > bought for me and Charles Alexander delivered it must be a > year ago. > A good day for beans,? now soaking, to which I'll add > a couple of > dried ancho chiles, a ham hock, some spicy turkey sausage, > and a few > more things. There's a fennel root and some fresh parsley > in the > fridge, and my rosemary plant needs trimming or will take > over the apartment. > > Yum. > > On the package that the beans came in is writ: "This > beautiful blue > tepary bean with dark blue flecks has wonderful texture and > tastes > very similar to the brown tepary." Maybe true, maybe not, > but here's > some of what I find problematic. 1. The implication is that > brown > teparies are the touchstone, as anybody worth talking to > can > immediately summon their taste to mind. 2. The wonder of a > texture is > always arguable. Is the texture of the blue speckled tepary > wonderful > by its very nature, or have we been taught to value one > texture over > another? Can we say that a particular texture is more > useful, or more > useful for a given purpose in a given context, hence > "wonderful"? 3. > Just as there seems to be an implied hierarchy of > cognoscenti, > there's an implied hierarchy of beans. Why is the writer > not > declaring his taste by presenting a list? 4. Note my > assumption about > the gender of the writer, which is in turn based on an > assumption of > gender-based norms of discourse that may or may not be > culturally-derived. 5. There's an implied universality to > "tastes > very similar" that at first glance seems at odds with the > implied > hierarchical thinking of the rest of the statement. Is this > a > democratic impulse, a levelling, an imagining of a world in > which > there are no becs fin for whom the tastes are so radically > different > that to imagine sameness is unimaginable? Or is this simply > an > extension of the delineation of? "us" versus "them?" > > The proof is in the tasting. > > I hope this is helpful. > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 02:06 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > >The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of > great ones, > >because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre > ones challenge > >our sense of coherence. > > > >For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem > convinces us > >that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, > in territory > >he or she has never visited before. > > > >Best, > > > >Mark > > > >At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > >>I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE > thing > >>that is true of every good poem? > >> > >>How about every good poem is capable of yielding > >>some meaning to the great majority of those who > read > >>it (and know something about poetry and give it a > fair > >>chance)?? In other words, a good poem is > coherent-- > > > > > > > >>in some way.. > >> > >>How about every good poem says or does something > >>that no other poem does?? (This does not mean > that > >>every poem that says or does something that no > other > >>poem does is a good poem.) > >> > >>--Bob > >>_______________________________________________ > >>New-Poetry mailing list > >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban > Poetry (University > >of California Press). > >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > House Book > >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual > anthology so > >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain > outside the United > >States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in > >English. There is nothing else like > it."???John Palattella in The > >Nation > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in > English. There is nothing else like > it."???John Palattella in The > Nation > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/09481c0b/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 20:53:37 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > To: halvard at gmail.com, > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, > ??? Views" > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d71002061153u6454a443nd78ecbc56fdc1570 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Yes, congratulations! I already congratulated Pam Brown. A > wonderful merge. > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/c744abea/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:47:40 -0600 > From: David Graham > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > >> I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE > thing > >> that is true of every good poem? > > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > > > > > Be well > > > > David Baratier, Editor > =================================== > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree!? My revision: > > ? ???Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/4975964c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:56:35 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > in the > ??? LateHonda??? Dynasty > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: <4B6DD783.1000304 at nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, > of course. > > Like, "when did so and so write that?" > Pretty trivial problem, seems to me, but--yes--worth > solving.? Here's a > start: every poet whose best work almost everyone would > agree was first > PUBLISHED between 1900 and 1950 or who was alive at some > time during > that period but died before 1950. > > > "Will I forget Oppen, who we associate with the period > but wrote his > > best work afterwards? > Sure.? If so, he'll be part of the later 1950 to 2000 > evaluation, or > maybe a 1925 to 1975 evaluation.? The project would be > based on the > premise that fifty years at least are needed to evaluate > the value of a > poet's work. > > > What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, > wrote better > > than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of > his best work is > > post 1950." > As above. > > >???So maybe the experiment needs a few > more controls for variables. > > > > In future we might require that all poets die at the > end of a decade. > > So much more convenient. > A more sophisticated investigation might go day by day, the > question > being, "Of all the American poets alive on this day, who > were the best > ten, or twenty, or whatever, from top to bottom, based on > what was known > of their work to that point," then use some kind formula to > rate all the > poets between 1900 and 1950, or the like--for instance--add > up a poet's > rank for each day of his life, then divide by the number of > days he > lived. . . .? Or just use his best hundred days. > > It would be hard to work up anything exact but I think the > results would > be interesting and a lot closer to objective than anything > we have now.? > Of course, any procedure is for non-nihilists--people who > believe > knowledge is possible. > > --Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:55:49 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d71002061255n4ff0d778xd48e3c5d3dea8580 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Lovely! Correction included, :-) > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:47 PM, David Graham > wrote: > > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > > > that is true of every good poem? > > > > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > > > > > Be well > > > > David Baratier, Editor > > > > =================================== > > > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree!? My > revision: > > > >? ? ? Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > > > > > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > Poetry Library: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/f38742c4/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath..vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 > ***************************************** > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 16:31:20 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 16:31:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in theLateHondaDynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DDDA2.8090103@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDDA2.8090103@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002061331y68a57b3eofc2f4491d47ecfdb@mail.gmail.com> Not quite. You're assuming that everyone will agree with a) what you mean by evaluation and b) you terms of evaluation. Typically, you've stacked the deck. You want the world to fall into line with your narrow view of how poetry functions. The rest of us, those who see your experiment in neologisms as hopelessly egocentric and narrow, are dismissed as nihilists. Talk about being afraid of evaluation . . . Your esoteric system of poetics works for you--not me. Rejecting one system of thought doe not make one a nihilist. I don't know how I'm resisting making a *Big Lebowski *joke here. Jeff Newberry On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Bob Grumman wrote: > >> I wonder if any other vocation's practitioners more fear to be evaluated >> than poetry. >> --Bob >> > The really funny thing is that I think I'm posting something that will > interest > poets when I forget myself as I have today here. I'm so egocentric that I > assume that just because I have an analytical intelligence, everyone does. > > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 16:33:28 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:33:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002061333u4ddc89ebvc08887cdc5d8480c@mail.gmail.com> A good poem is a poem you remember often. Erlkoenig by Goethe is one. I first memorized it when I was at high school, and it comes back, and once in a while I look for it to read it again. And it is a slant poem, as Finnegan says. Slant because I do not have any kids, I am not a man, and none of my nonexistent children have died. I even read it in German which is not my mother tongue. But it touched some chords somewhere. On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique > angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or > another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo > of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 3:47 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > that is true of every good poem? > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > =================================== > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: > > Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 6 16:36:07 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:36:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC758B86E340CC-4558-23C1E@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> A priori: a certain amount of scale or complexity. It is impossible to write a great poem unless the subject (and I use that only as marker whatever the reader takes away from the poem) is unweildy. Nothing pat will be permitted in coming to grips with it. In this poem, Gilbert uses that idea of 'unwieldy' as his trope for grief... Michiko Dead He manages like somebody carrying a box that is too heavy, first with his arms underneath. When their strength gives out, he moves the hands forward, hooking them on the corners, pulling the weight against his chest. He moves his thumbs slightly when the fingers begin to tire, and it makes different muscles take over. Afterward, he carries it on his shoulder, until the blood drains out of the arm that is stretched up to steady the box and the arm goes numb. But now the man can hold underneath again, so that he can go on without ever putting the box down. - Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing that is true of every good poem? Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge Be well David Baratier, Editor =================================== Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: Every Good POET Deserves Fudge I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 16:36:41 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:36:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002061336o6d36fc38xd84c65ae8213d4b2@mail.gmail.com> We need a baritone for the refrain. On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:05 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does > Fine. > > ====================== > > Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with this as > refrain line? > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Sat Feb 6 16:41:27 2010 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:41:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] EGBDF In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002061336o6d36fc38xd84c65ae8213d4b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4b65c2d71002061336o6d36fc38xd84c65ae8213d4b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015f01caa775$23806630$6a813290$@edu> I might have missed this one if it has been proposed, but how about a synthesis: Every Good Bard Deserves Fudge. Bill Morgan So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does Fine. ====================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Feb 6 16:44:17 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:44:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> You're on. Or maybe the British version -- Every Good Bard Deserves Favor. I'm still working on my Facebook challenge, but I'll take a shot at this too. David Graham wrote: > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard >> Does Fine. > ====================== > > Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with this > as refrain line? > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 16:44:45 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:44:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] EGBDF In-Reply-To: <015f01caa775$23806630$6a813290$@edu> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4b65c2d71002061336o6d36fc38xd84c65ae8213d4b2@mail.gmail.com> <015f01caa775$23806630$6a813290$@edu> Message-ID: My problem with this is probably peculiarly my own. I associate EGBDF with fiddle lessons when I was a kid. I'd surely have gotten the fudge on the strings, and maybe even into the f holes. At 04:41 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0160_01CAA742.D8E5F630" >Content-language: en-us > >I might have missed this one if it has been proposed, but how about >a synthesis: Every Good Bard Deserves Fudge. > >Bill Morgan > > >So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does Fine. >====================== >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 16:46:54 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:46:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <462870.36504.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201002061911.o16JBW3A025580@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <462870.36504.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Desert Music, Asphodel. Could be wrong on this, of course. But the point remains, even if the example doesn't. At 04:29 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote better > > than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best work is > > post 1950." > >Don't you mainly mean work _published_ post 1950. > >With the strokes, at best, Williams wrote for five years in the 50's. > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > >--- On Sat, 2/6/10, >new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > > > From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 7:11 PM > > Send New-Poetry mailing list > > submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific > > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Jacket - news! (Al Filreis) > > 2. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > > in the Late Honda > > Dynasty (Jeff Newberry) > > 3. Re: Jacket - news! (TheOldMole) > > 4. Jacket - news! (Graham, David) > > 5. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > > in the Late Honda > > Dynasty (Mark Weiss) > > 6. Re: Jacket - news! (Halvard Johnson) > > 7. Re: What A Good Poem Is (Mark Weiss) > > 8. Re: What A Good Poem Is (David > > Baratier) > > 9. Re: What A Good Poem Is (Mark Weiss) > > 10. Re: Jacket - news! (Anny Ballardini) > > 11. Re: Re: What A Good Poem Is (David Graham) > > 12. Re: Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in the > > LateHonda > > Dynasty (Bob Grumman) > > 13. Re: Re: What A Good Poem Is (Anny Ballardini) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:55:05 -0500 > > From: Al Filreis > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Message-ID: <15C62266-57D0-42BF-B37E-59FCA70C8D1D at writing.upenn.edu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter and Al > > Filreis > > > > > > Dear friends: > > > > We are writing with news of a transition we both deem very > > exciting. > > > > By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will have > > put out 40 > > issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in what > > John recalls > > as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online magazine, > > one of the > > earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite rare > > for its > > consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, the > > contents > > awesomely voluminous, the slant international modernist > > and > > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > > > After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years of > > intense every- > > single-day involvement with Jacket, and the entire archive > > of > > thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at the > > University > > of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of course be > > available > > on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But the > > magazine is > > not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. > > > > Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will have a > > new home, > > extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket and > > its > > continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers > > House and > > PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > > > The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing archive > > of audio > > recordings of poetry performance, discussion and criticism, > > is seen as > > a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is > > the > > relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue > > for day-to- > > day poetic interchange of all kinds. The synergy in this > > three-way > > relationship has great potential. > > > > Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, Director of > > the > > Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new Editor > > will be > > Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > > PennSound) and the > > new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > > available as > > Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate > > Editor. > > > > More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to come. > > Meantime, the > > Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world of > > poetics do > > -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work > > they've done. > > And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket > > will be > > preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new mode > > but with a > > continuous mission and approach. > > > > - John Tranter & Al Filreis > > http://jackemagazine.com > > > > > > links: > > > > Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ > > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > > > Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > > 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA > > 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > > > Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > > > Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > > > Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > > > Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > > > John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > > > Al Filreis > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > Al Filreis > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/d06bc124/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:57:01 -0500 > > From: Jeff Newberry > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > > in the > > Late Honda Dynasty > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > <731bb17a1002061057i3b927e2fo34c679d51f2bc8cc at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Do you have a file of statements that you cut & > > paste? Perhaps a macro > > built into your email program so that you don't have to > > write the same > > things ad nauseum? > > > > The notion of a "True Poet" is incredibly problematic, > > given the problem of > > defining "poetry," which is yet another reason, Bob, that > > one simply cannot > > quantify art. Sure, you can build a library of > > neologisms that describe > > what *you *like about *certain kinds *of poetry, but you > > can't measure a > > reader's emotional response to a work of art. I mean, > > I suppose you could > > set up some kind of meter that might read pulse rate and so > > forth and > > perhaps attribute those changes to a work of art. > > But, my goodness, what > > would that get you? What's the upshot? What's > > the point? > > > > Yes--there are probably a group of poets whose "best work" > > was written > > between 1900 & 1950, just as there is a group of poets > > whose "best work" was > > written between 1850 & 1900. But, then again, > > when you fetishize "newness" > > and make a box of tinker toys out of "poetic techniques," > > then I suppose, > > your view of poetry tends to be a necessarily mechanistic. > > > > I guess, as usual, we come to an impasse, Bob. You > > see art as measurable (& > > thus mechanical, a product of assembly). I see it as > > organic, connected to > > something ineffable, something beyond (to use David > > Graham's appropriate > > phrase) Delphic pronouncements. > > > > Jeff Newberry > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > > > > Judy Prince wrote: > > > > > >> I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your > > frustrationed > > >> rage.....but then realise I do in my heart feel > > exactly as those idiots > > >> state . . . that there are in fact only 15 or 20 > > True Poets. > > >> > > > I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm > > not familiar with > > > the work of every poet in the country. A more > > interesting question--at > > > least a question easier to grapple with--is how many > > great American poets > > > wrote the majority of their best poems between 1900 > > and 1950. I bet that if > > > everyone who visits New-Poetry were to vote on this, > > 15 to 20 poets would > > > get votes from 75% or them, and no other more than the > > percent of the vote. > > > --Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them > > parables; and that > > is what art really is, particular stories of particular > > people and > > experience, from which each according to his own immediate > > and peculiar > > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed.... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/e39182b6/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:58:02 -0500 > > From: TheOldMole > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: <4B6DBBBA.10009 at opus40.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > > format=flowed > > > > Congratulations. > > > > Al Filreis wrote: > > > *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John Tranter > > and Al Filreis* > > > > > > > > > Dear friends: > > > > > > We are writing with news of a transition we both deem > > very exciting. > > > > > > By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown will > > have put out 40 > > > issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in > > what John recalls > > > as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online > > magazine, one of the > > > earliest in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite > > rare for its > > > consistency over the years. "The design is beautiful, > > the contents > > > awesomely voluminous, the slant international > > modernist and > > > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > > > > > After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen years > > of intense > > > every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the > > entire archive of > > > thousands of web pages will move intact to servers at > > the University > > > of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of > > course be available > > > on the internet to everyone, for free, as always. But > > the magazine is > > > not ceasing publication: quite the opposite. > > > > > > Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will > > have a new home, > > > extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket > > and its > > > continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly > > Writers House and > > > PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > > > > > The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing > > archive of audio > > > recordings of poetry performance, discussion and > > criticism, is seen as > > > a valuable additional facet of the new magazine, as is > > the > > > relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a lively > > venue for > > > day-to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The > > synergy in this > > > three-way relationship has great potential. > > > > > > Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, > > Director of the > > > Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The new > > Editor will be > > > Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > > PennSound) and the > > > new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > > available as > > > Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as Associate > > Editor. > > > > > > More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to > > come. Meantime, the > > > Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in the world > > of poetics do > > > -- to John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary work > > they've done. > > > And John, for his part, is mightily pleased that > > Jacket will be > > > preserved and will continue and grow in a somewhat new > > mode but with a > > > continuous mission and approach. > > > > > > - John Tranter & Al Filreis > > > http://jackemagazine.com > > > > > > > > > links: > > > > > > Al Filreis: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ > > > > > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > > > > > Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > > > 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA > > 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > > > > > Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > > > Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > > > > > Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > > > > > Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > > > > > Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > > > > > Al Filreis > > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > > > > > > > Al Filreis > > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > > Tad Richards > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:01:10 -0600 > > From: "Graham, David" > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > format=flowed; > > delsp=yes; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the best > > poetry sites > > on the net. > > > > David Graham > > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > > ------------------------ > > Home page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" > > wrote: > > > > > Congratulations. > > > > > > Al Filreis wrote: > > >> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John > > Tranter and Al Filreis* > > >> > > >> > > >> Dear friends: > > >> > > >> We are writing with news of a transition we both > > deem very exciting. > > >> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown > > will have put out 40 > > >> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It began in > > what John > > >> recalls as "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early > > all-online magazine, > > >> one of the earliest in the world of poetry and > > poetics, and quite > > >> rare for its consistency over the years. "The > > design is beautiful, > > >> the contents awesomely voluminous, the slant > > international > > >> modernist and experimental." (So said _The > > Guardian_.) > > >> > > >> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen > > years of intense > > >> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and the > > entire archive of > > >> thousands of web pages will move intact to servers > > at the > > >> University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where > > it will of course > > >> be available on the internet to everyone, for > > free, as always. But > > >> the magazine is not ceasing publication: quite the > > opposite. > > >> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket will > > have a new home, > > >> extra staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. > > Jacket and its > > >> continuation, Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly > > Writers House > > >> and PennSound at the University of Pennsylvania. > > >> The connection with PennSound, a vast and growing > > archive of audio > > >> recordings of poetry performance, discussion and > > criticism, is seen > > >> as a valuable additional facet of the new > > magazine, as is the > > >> relationship with busy Kelly Writers House, a > > lively venue for day- > > >> to-day poetic interchange of all kinds. The > > synergy in this three- > > >> way relationship has great potential. > > >> > > >> Al will become Publisher and Jessica Lowenthal, > > Director of the > > >> Writers House, will be Associate Publisher. The > > new Editor will be > > >> Michael S. Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > > PennSound) and > > >> the new Managing Editor will be Julia Bloch.. John > > will be available > > >> as Founding Editor, and Pam will continue as > > Associate Editor. > > >> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and months to > > come. Meantime, > > >> the Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in > > the world of > > >> poetics do -- to John and to Pam Brown for the > > extraordinary work > > >> they've done. And John, for his part, is mightily > > pleased that > > >> Jacket will be preserved and will continue and > > grow in a somewhat > > >> new mode but with a continuous mission and > > approach. > > >> > > >> - John Tranter & Al Filreis > > >> http://jackemagazine.com > > >> > > >> > > >> links: > > >> > > >> Al Filreis: > http://writing.upenn..edu/~afilreis/ > >> > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > >> > > >> Kelly Writers House: http://www..writing.upenn.edu/wh/ > > >> 3805 Locust Walk, > > Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > >> > > >> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > > Lowenthal: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > >> > > >> Michael S. Hennessey: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > >> > > >> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > >> > > >> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > >> > > >> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > >> > > >> Al Filreis > > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Al Filreis > > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --- > > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > Tad Richards > > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:01:05 -0500 > > From: Mark Weiss > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > > in the > > Late Honda Dynasty > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, of > > course. > > Like, "when did so and so write that?" "Will I forget > > Oppen, who we > > associate with the period but wrote his best work > > afterwards? What > > about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, wrote > > better than > > nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of his best > > work is > > post 1950." So maybe the experiment needs a few more > > controls for variables.. > > > > In future we might require that all poets die at the end of > > a decade. > > So much more convenient. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > At 01:39 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > >Judy Prince wrote: > > >>I totally agree, David---and am in sync with your > > frustrationed > > >>rage......but then realise I do in my heart feel > > exactly as those > > >>idiots state . . . that there are in fact only 15 > > or 20 True Poets. > > >I suspect that may be true, but can't tell because I'm > > not familiar > > >with the work of every poet in the country. A > > more interesting > > >question--at least a question easier to grapple > > with--is how many > > >great American poets wrote the majority of their best > > poems between > > >1900 and 1950. I bet that if everyone who visits > > New-Poetry were to > > >vote on this, 15 to 20 poets would get votes from 75% > > or them, and > > >no other more than the percent of the vote. > > >--Bob > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > > (University > > of California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > > House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > > so > > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > > the United > > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > > poems in > > English. There is nothing else like > > it." John Palattella in The > > Nation > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/d7411cd3/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:03:31 -0600 > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Too big to fail now? > > > > Hal > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > > > Halvard Johnson > > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Graham, David > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, very good news indeed. The merger of two of the > > best poetry sites on > > > the net. > > > > > > David Graham > > > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > > > ------------------------ > > > > > > Home page: > > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:58 PM, "TheOldMole" > > wrote: > > > > > > Congratulations. > > >> > > >> Al Filreis wrote: > > >> > > >>> *Jacket magazine: An Announcement from John > > Tranter and Al Filreis* > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dear friends: > > >>> > > >>> We are writing with news of a transition we > > both deem very exciting. > > >>> By the end of 2010, John Tranter and Pam Brown > > will have put out 40 > > >>> issues of Jacket (jacketmagazine.com). It > > began in what John recalls as > > >>> "a rash moment" in 1997 - an early all-online > > magazine, one of the earliest > > >>> in the world of poetry and poetics, and quite > > rare for its consistency over > > >>> the years. "The design is beautiful, the > > contents awesomely voluminous, the > > >>> slant international modernist and > > experimental." (So said _The Guardian_.) > > >>> > > >>> After issue 40, John will retire from thirteen > > years of intense > > >>> every-single-day involvement with Jacket, and > > the entire archive of > > >>> thousands of web pages will move intact to > > servers at the University of > > >>> Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where it will of > > course be available on the > > >>> internet to everyone, for free, as always. But > > the magazine is not ceasing > > >>> publication: quite the opposite. > > >>> Starting with the first issue in 2011, Jacket > > will have a new home, extra > > >>> staff and a vigorous future as Jacket2. Jacket > > and its continuation, > > >>> Jacket2, will be hosted by the Kelly Writers > > House and PennSound at the > > >>> University of Pennsylvania. > > >>> The connection with PennSound, a vast and > > growing archive of audio > > >>> recordings of poetry performance, discussion > > and criticism, is seen as a > > >>> valuable additional facet of the new magazine, > > as is the relationship with > > >>> busy Kelly Writers House, a lively venue for > > day-to-day poetic interchange > > >>> of all kinds. The synergy in this three-way > > relationship has great > > >>> potential. > > >>> > > >>> Al will become Publisher and Jessica > > Lowenthal, Director of the Writers > > >>> House, will be Associate Publisher. The new > > Editor will be Michael S. > > >>> Hennessey (currently Managing Editor of > > PennSound) and the new Managing > > >>> Editor will be Julia Bloch. John will be > > available as Founding Editor, and > > >>> Pam will continue as Associate Editor. > > >>> More news about Jacket2 in the weeks and > > months to come. Meantime, the > > >>> Jacket2 folks extend gratitude -- as many in > > the world of poetics do -- to > > >>> John and to Pam Brown for the extraordinary > > work they've done. And John, for > > >>> his part, is mightily pleased that Jacket will > > be preserved and will > > >>> continue and grow in a somewhat new mode but > > with a continuous mission and > > >>> approach. > > >>> > > >>> - John Tranter & Al Filreis > > >>> http://jackemagazine.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> links: > > >>> > > >>> Al Filreis: > http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/< > > >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis/> > > & http://writing.upenn.edu/ > > >>> > > >>> Kelly Writers House: http://www.writing..upenn.edu/wh/ > > >>> 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, > > PA 19104, USA: tel: 215-746-POEM > > >>> > > >>> Kelly Writers House Director Jessica > > Lowenthal: > > >>> http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/people/staff/ > > >>> > > >>> Michael S. Hennessey: > http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Hennessey.php > > >>> > > >>> Julia Bloch: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Bloch.php > > >>> > > >>> Pam Brown: http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > > >>> > > >>> John Tranter: http://johntranter.com/ > > >>> > > >>> Al Filreis > > >>> > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< > > >>> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Al Filreis > > >>> > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis< > > >>> http://www.writing.upenn..edu/%7Eafilreis> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >>> > > >>> > > >> -- > > >> Tad Richards > > >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > >> http://www..examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > >> > > >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/38e74cf6/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:06:12 -0500 > > From: Mark Weiss > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of great > > ones, > > because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre ones > > challenge > > our sense of coherence. > > > > For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem > > convinces us > > that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, in > > territory > > he or she has never visited before. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > >I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > >that is true of every good poem? > > > > > >How about every good poem is capable of yielding > > >some meaning to the great majority of those who read > > >it (and know something about poetry and give it a fair > > >chance)? In other words, a good poem is > > coherent-- > > > > > > > > >in some way.. > > > > > >How about every good poem says or does something > > >that no other poem does? (This does not mean > > that > > >every poem that says or does something that no other > > >poem does is a good poem.) > > > > > >--Bob > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt..edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > > (University > > of California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > > House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > > so > > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > > the United > > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > > poems in > > English. There is nothing else like > > it." John Palattella in The > > Nation > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/0cc6fbec/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) > > From: David Baratier > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Message-ID: <783876.8300.qm at web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > > that is true of every good poem? > > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > > > > > Be well > > > > David Baratier, Editor > > > > Pavement Saw Press > > 321 Empire Street > > Montpelier OH 43543 > > http://pavementsaw.org > > > > Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at > > http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:51:19 -0500 > > From: Mark Weiss > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What A Good Poem Is > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > It's a cold cold day in New York, and we're expecting a > > couple of > > inches of snow. Which gives rise to thoughts of Tucson and > > the Blue > > Speckled Tepary Beans from Native Seeds Search that Cynthia > > Alexander > > bought for me and Charles Alexander delivered it must be a > > year ago. > > A good day for beans, now soaking, to which I'll add > > a couple of > > dried ancho chiles, a ham hock, some spicy turkey sausage, > > and a few > > more things. There's a fennel root and some fresh parsley > > in the > > fridge, and my rosemary plant needs trimming or will take > > over the apartment. > > > > Yum. > > > > On the package that the beans came in is writ: "This > > beautiful blue > > tepary bean with dark blue flecks has wonderful texture and > > tastes > > very similar to the brown tepary." Maybe true, maybe not, > > but here's > > some of what I find problematic. 1. The implication is that > > brown > > teparies are the touchstone, as anybody worth talking to > > can > > immediately summon their taste to mind. 2. The wonder of a > > texture is > > always arguable. Is the texture of the blue speckled tepary > > wonderful > > by its very nature, or have we been taught to value one > > texture over > > another? Can we say that a particular texture is more > > useful, or more > > useful for a given purpose in a given context, hence > > "wonderful"? 3. > > Just as there seems to be an implied hierarchy of > > cognoscenti, > > there's an implied hierarchy of beans. Why is the writer > > not > > declaring his taste by presenting a list? 4. Note my > > assumption about > > the gender of the writer, which is in turn based on an > > assumption of > > gender-based norms of discourse that may or may not be > > culturally-derived. 5. There's an implied universality to > > "tastes > > very similar" that at first glance seems at odds with the > > implied > > hierarchical thinking of the rest of the statement. Is this > > a > > democratic impulse, a levelling, an imagining of a world in > > which > > there are no becs fin for whom the tastes are so radically > > different > > that to imagine sameness is unimaginable? Or is this simply > > an > > extension of the delineation of "us" versus "them?" > > > > The proof is in the tasting. > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 02:06 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > >The first is probably truer of mediocre poems than of > > great ones, > > >because, though not all great poems do, few mediocre > > ones challenge > > >our sense of coherence. > > > > > >For the second, I'd say more like a really good poem > > convinces us > > >that the poet is working at the edge of his knowledge, > > in territory > > >he or she has never visited before. > > > > > >Best, > > > > > >Mark > > > > > >At 01:47 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > >>I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE > > thing > > >>that is true of every good poem? > > >> > > >>How about every good poem is capable of yielding > > >>some meaning to the great majority of those who > > read > > >>it (and know something about poetry and give it a > > fair > > >>chance)? In other words, a good poem is > > coherent-- > > > > > > > > > > > >>in some way.. > > >> > > >>How about every good poem says or does something > > >>that no other poem does? (This does not mean > > that > > >>every poem that says or does something that no > > other > > >>poem does is a good poem.) > > >> > > >>--Bob > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>New-Poetry mailing list > > >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban > > Poetry (University > > >of California Press). > > >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > > House Book > > >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual > > anthology so > > >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain > > outside the United > > >States and also created a superb collection of foreign > > poems in > > >English. There is nothing else like > > it." John Palattella in The > > >Nation > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > > (University > > of California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random > > House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology > > so > > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside > > the United > > States and also created a superb collection of foreign > > poems in > > English. There is nothing else like > > it." John Palattella in The > > Nation > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/09481c0b/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 10 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 20:53:37 +0100 > > From: Anny Ballardini > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jacket - news! > > To: halvard at gmail.com, > > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, > > Views" > > Message-ID: > > <4b65c2d71002061153u6454a443nd78ecbc56fdc1570 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Yes, congratulations! I already congratulated Pam Brown. A > > wonderful merge. > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > > to a dancing > > star! > > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > > Giovenale > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/c744abea/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:47:40 -0600 > > From: David Graham > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > > > >> I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE > > thing > > > >> that is true of every good poem? > > > > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > > > > > > > > > Be well > > > > > > David Baratier, Editor > > =================================== > > > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My revision: > > > > Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > > > > > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > Poetry Library: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/4975964c/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 12 > > Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:56:35 -0500 > > From: Bob Grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons > > in the > > LateHonda Dynasty > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > & Views" > > > > Message-ID: <4B6DD783.1000304 at nut-n-but.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > > format=flowed > > > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > > An interesting experiment, Bob. Fraught with problems, > > of course. > > > Like, "when did so and so write that?" > > Pretty trivial problem, seems to me, but--yes--worth > > solving. Here's a > > start: every poet whose best work almost everyone would > > agree was first > > PUBLISHED between 1900 and 1950 or who was alive at some > > time during > > that period but died before 1950. > > > > > "Will I forget Oppen, who we associate with the period > > but wrote his > > > best work afterwards? > > Sure. If so, he'll be part of the later 1950 to 2000 > > evaluation, or > > maybe a 1925 to 1975 evaluation. The project would be > > based on the > > premise that fifty years at least are needed to evaluate > > the value of a > > poet's work. > > > > > What about Williams? Very much a figure of the period, > > wrote better > > > than nearly anyone during that time-span, but much of > > his best work is > > > post 1950." > > As above. > > > > > So maybe the experiment needs a few > > more controls for variables. > > > > > > In future we might require that all poets die at the > > end of a decade. > > > So much more convenient. > > A more sophisticated investigation might go day by day, the > > question > > being, "Of all the American poets alive on this day, who > > were the best > > ten, or twenty, or whatever, from top to bottom, based on > > what was known > > of their work to that point," then use some kind formula to > > rate all the > > poets between 1900 and 1950, or the like--for instance--add > > up a poet's > > rank for each day of his life, then divide by the number of > > days he > > lived. . . . Or just use his best hundred days. > > > > It would be hard to work up anything exact but I think the > > results would > > be interesting and a lot closer to objective than anything > > we have now. > > Of course, any procedure is for non-nihilists--people who > > believe > > knowledge is possible. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 13 > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:55:49 +0100 > > From: Anny Ballardini > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > > &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > <4b65c2d71002061255n4ff0d778xd48e3c5d3dea8580 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Lovely! Correction included, :-) > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:47 PM, David Graham > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > > > > > I wonder if we could at least agree on just ONE thing > > > > > > that is true of every good poem? > > > > > > > > > Every Good Poem Deserves Fudge > > > > > > > > > > > > Be well > > > > > > David Baratier, Editor > > > > > > =================================== > > > > > > Ah, but I must tastefully disagree! My > > revision: > > > > > > Every Good POET Deserves Fudge > > > > > > I applaud the sentiment, either way. . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > > > Home Page: > > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > > to a dancing > > star! > > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > > Giovenale > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100206/f38742c4/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath..vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 8 > > ***************************************** > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 16:49:10 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:49:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> Message-ID: Is there a Brit version of My Dog Has Fleas? At 04:44 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >You're on. Or maybe the British version -- Every Good Bard Deserves >Favor. I'm still working on my Facebook challenge, but I'll take a >shot at this too. > >David Graham wrote: >> >> >> >>On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>>So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good >>>Bard Does Fine. >>====================== >> >>Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with >>this as refrain line? >> >> >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd at ripon.edu >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Feb 6 16:53:51 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:53:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4B6DE4EF.6040902@opus40.org> Now that goes back to my childhood, and my first ukelele. Mark Weiss wrote: > Is there a Brit version of My Dog Has Fleas? > > At 04:44 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >> You're on. Or maybe the British version -- Every Good Bard Deserves >> Favor. I'm still working on my Facebook challenge, but I'll take a >> shot at this too. >> >> David Graham wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>>> So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard >>>> Does Fine. >>> ====================== >>> >>> Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with >>> this as refrain line? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 6 17:04:13 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:04:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: <4B6DE4EF.6040902@opus40.org> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> <4B6DE4EF.6040902@opus40.org> Message-ID: You aparently pracrtice serial ukelelomy and not polyukelelity. But seriously, wouldn't a New Poety Cookbook be fun? My guess is most of us cook and all of us eat. I doubt that we'd have too much problems sorting out the categories for that one. Although, come to think of it, there's the eternal question of when is a soup a stew and vice versa, and my bean stew/soup could also be a sausage stew/soup. Are there no pure categories anywhere? [sound of hair being torn out] At 04:53 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >Now that goes back to my childhood, and my first ukelele. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Is there a Brit version of My Dog Has Fleas? >> >>At 04:44 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: >>>You're on. Or maybe the British version -- Every Good Bard >>>Deserves Favor. I'm still working on my Facebook challenge, but >>>I'll take a shot at this too. >>> >>>David Graham wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>> >>>>>So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good >>>>>Bard Does Fine. >>>>====================== >>>> >>>>Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with >>>>this as refrain line? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>======================================== >>>>David Graham >>>>grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>>> >>>>Home Page: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>>> >>>>Poetry Library: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>>========================================== >>>> >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>Tad Richards >>>Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* >>(University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book >>of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the >>United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems >>in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in >>/The Nation/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 6 17:04:50 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 16:04:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:14 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. > > Finnegan ====================== Of course, we soon run smack into the matter of perfectly unslanted poems that are also unforgettable, powerful, perfectly made, don't we? I'm thinking of a poem like this one of Hardy's: The Self-Unseeing Here is the ancient floor, Footworn and hollowed and thin, Here was the former door Where the dead feet walked in. She sat here in her chair, Smiling into the fire; He who played stood there, Bowing it higher and higher. Childlike, I danced in a dream; Blessings emblazoned that day; Everything glowed with a gleam; Yet we were looking away! Is that a good poem? Great? If not great, why not? I'm not sure that degree of slantedness is the best or only yardstick, myself. Mostly thinking aloud here. I really am not sure about how I'd classify this poem, but I am sure that I like it very much even as I recognize that it's not very new in either theme or technique. The same is true of a lot of song lyrics: simple but good, as I see things. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 17:12:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:12:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique > angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or > another have been done before...so how one enters the material > matters. Echo of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. > > Finnegan Thanks, James. That's close to my second statement about what property a good poem must have. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 17:18:07 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:18:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in theLateHondaDynasty In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002061331y68a57b3eofc2f4491d47ecfdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu><4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDDA2.8090103@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002061331y68a57b3eofc2f4491d47ecfdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6DEA9F.4020406@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Not quite. > > You're assuming that everyone will agree with a) what you mean by > evaluation and b) you terms of evaluation. Typically, you've stacked > the deck. You want the world to fall into line with your narrow view > of how poetry functions. The rest of us, those who see your > experiment in neologisms as hopelessly egocentric and narrow, are > dismissed as nihilists. > > Talk about being afraid of evaluation . . . > > Your esoteric system of poetics works for you--not me. Do tell me how putting out a mild idea about what property every good poem will have for comment is some kind of attempt to make the world fall in line with my way of thinking, unless you mean my way of thinking that good poems share some property, which is a certainty that everyone agrees with, although a lot of you don't realize it. That is, everyone has ways of recognizing what to him are good poems. > Rejecting one system of thought doe not make one a nihilist. No but saying poetry can't be evaluated as you certainly seem to have does. --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 6 17:20:32 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:20:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Tad Richards In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE2B1.9070704@opus40.org> <4B6DE4EF.6040902@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002061420h6c7098e0w30a3b91f45fbda18@mail.gmail.com> Seriopoetry and NP cookbookery, Mark. * * *Ma Broon's Butt 'n Ben Cookbook* [Butt 'n Ben = a small cottage in the Scottish Highlands] and Clootie Dumpling. Crucial issue's where you've placed your fudgy finger: when's a soup a stew? Bugger me! [This does not carry a sexual connotation in the UK, I'm told] Judy On 6 February 2010 14:04, Mark Weiss wrote: > You aparently pracrtice serial ukelelomy and not polyukelelity. > > But seriously, wouldn't a New Poety Cookbook be fun? My guess is most of us > cook and all of us eat. I doubt that we'd have too much problems sorting out > the categories for that one. Although, come to think of it, there's the > eternal question of when is a soup a stew and vice versa, and my bean > stew/soup could also be a sausage stew/soup. > > Are there no pure categories anywhere? [sound of hair being torn out] > > > At 04:53 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > Now that goes back to my childhood, and my first ukelele. > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > Is there a Brit version of My Dog Has Fleas? > > At 04:44 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote: > > You're on. Or maybe the British version -- Every Good Bard Deserves Favor. > I'm still working on my Facebook challenge, but I'll take a shot at this > too. > > David Graham wrote: > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > So as not to distort the music, it would have to be Every Good Bard Does > Fine. > > ====================== > > Even better. Hey, Tad, why don't you get to work on a song with this as > refrain line? > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 17:25:47 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:25:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> > Of course, we soon run smack into the matter of perfectly unslanted > poems that are also unforgettable, powerful, perfectly made, don't we? > I'm thinking of a poem like this one of Hardy's: > > *The Self-Unseeing* > > Here is the ancient floor, > Footworn and hollowed and thin, > Here was the former door > Where the dead feet walked in. > > She sat here in her chair, > Smiling into the fire; > He who played stood there, > Bowing it higher and higher. > > Childlike, I danced in a dream; > Blessings emblazoned that day; > Everything glowed with a gleam; > Yet we were looking away! I would suggest that if it's a good poem, one could eventually find what is slant in it, and it could be something other than its diction. If one accepts my statement that a good poem does or is or says something no other poem does. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 6 17:38:59 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:38:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC75944F049D8C-4558-24752@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Doesn't have the scale/complexity required of a great poem, but I would say it works from oblique perspective or slant telling. Working from 'the floor' and other architectural elements of space and not going straight to the dead seems a sufficient 'alt treatment' to me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:14 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. Finnegan ====================== Of course, we soon run smack into the matter of perfectly unslanted poems that are also unforgettable, powerful, perfectly made, don't we? I'm thinking of a poem like this one of Hardy's: The Self-Unseeing Here is the ancient floor, Footworn and hollowed and thin, Here was the former door Where the dead feet walked in. She sat here in her chair, Smiling into the fire; He who played stood there, Bowing it higher and higher. Childlike, I danced in a dream; Blessings emblazoned that day; Everything glowed with a gleam; Yet we were looking away! Is that a good poem? Great? If not great, why not? I'm not sure that degree of slantedness is the best or only yardstick, myself. Mostly thinking aloud here. I really am not sure about how I'd classify this poem, but I am sure that I like it very much even as I recognize that it's not very new in either theme or technique. The same is true of a lot of song lyrics: simple but good, as I see things. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 17:48:28 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:48:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC75944F049D8C-4558-24752@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <8CC75944F049D8C-4558-24752@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6DF1BC.2010505@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Doesn't have the scale/complexity required of a great poem, but I > would say > it works from oblique perspective or slant telling. Working from 'the > floor' and other architectural elements of space and not going > straight to the dead seems a sufficient 'alt treatment' to me. > Finnegan > That's close to my thoughts about it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 6 17:51:01 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:51:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. The material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the language out of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. Things must be happenning in the poem on the level of language that are sufficiently unexpected. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Sat Feb 6 17:54:52 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:54:52 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Unincorporated Persons in theLateHondaDynasty In-Reply-To: <4B6DEA9F.4020406@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC755E02F0561C-184C-464A@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> <5033FBD9-E429-4AB1-87CB-21D1357C4BA2@ripon.edu> <4B6DB751.4040905@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DD783.1000304@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDB2E.5040703@nut-n-but.net> <4B6DDDA2.8090103@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002061331y68a57b3eofc2f4491d47ecfdb@mail.gmail.com> <4B6DEA9F.4020406@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Gee, *this* argument wasn't at *all* predictable. c From chris at chrislott.org Sat Feb 6 17:57:42 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:57:42 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > > I would suggest that if it's a good poem, one could eventually find what > is slant in it, and it could be something other than its diction.? If one > accepts And even if one doesn't, with the faith that in every poem we like one *eventually could*, we're back to a pretty thin gruel. No meat, no mas. c From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 6 18:10:06 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:10:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002061510j44332c2ax16146b1a61445e44@mail.gmail.com> David, your questions throw me back upon what I ask myself that I like about the poem. Further, did I ask those same questions of the Jack Gilbert poem, * Michiko Dead*, that Finnegan just sent in? I look for my near-simultaneous reactions of wonder, surprise and recognition at (a) deep-important fresh feeling or view. I further near-unconsciously weigh the intensity and depth of that wonder-recognition the words have evoked. The two poems, *The Self-Unseeing* and *Michiko Dead*, do as you and Finnegan ["approach from an oblique angle"] feel that Fine/Excellent/Good Poems do. As my two paragraphs above say, I also "rate" a poem as to how powerfully the words work their wonder/recognition in me. Judy On 6 February 2010 14:04, David Graham wrote: > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:14 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > I posit that every great poem approaches the material from an oblique > angle. The themes, ideas, content are all givens and to one degree or > another have been done before...so how one enters the material matters. Echo > of Dickinson's 'tell it slant'. > > Finnegan > > ====================== > > > Of course, we soon run smack into the matter of perfectly unslanted poems > that are also unforgettable, powerful, perfectly made, don't we? I'm > thinking of a poem like this one of Hardy's: > > *The Self-Unseeing* > > Here is the ancient floor, > Footworn and hollowed and thin, > Here was the former door > Where the dead feet walked in. > > She sat here in her chair, > Smiling into the fire; > He who played stood there, > Bowing it higher and higher. > > Childlike, I danced in a dream; > Blessings emblazoned that day; > Everything glowed with a gleam; > Yet we were looking away! > > Is that a good poem? Great? If not great, why not? I'm not sure that > degree of slantedness is the best or only yardstick, myself. > > Mostly thinking aloud here. I really am not sure about how I'd classify > this poem, but I am sure that I like it very much even as I recognize that > it's not very new in either theme or technique. The same is true of a lot > of song lyrics: simple but good, as I see things. > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 19:09:44 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:09:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: >> I would suggest that if it's a good poem, one could eventually find what >> is slant in it, and it could be something other than its diction. If one >> accepts >> > > And even if one doesn't, with the faith that in every poem we like one > *eventually could*, we're back to a pretty thin gruel. No meat, no > mas. > > c Well, I think we would intuitively know the slantness was there, and even vaguely what it was. It would just take a while in some cases to isolate and define it. Aside from that, I'm starting small, just asking for ONE property all good poems have. Does anyone think there isn't one? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Sat Feb 6 19:09:24 2010 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:09:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Well, I think we would intuitively know the slantness was there, and even > vaguely what it was.? It would just take a while in some cases to isolate > and define it.? Aside from that, I'm starting small, just asking for ONE > property all good poems have. A lipstick mark left by Calliope or Erato. Preferably with a forensic certification to ensure the mark is not a forgery. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 19:38:41 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:38:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. > The material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the > language out of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. > Things must be happenning in the poem on the level of language that > are sufficiently unexpected. > > Finnegan A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible language. What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional haiku even tries to avoid artiful language of any kind whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that a good poem must have something slant in it, but it needn't be language. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Feb 6 19:58:52 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 00:58:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <995100.37212.qm@web87114.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Bob wrote: > I'm > starting small, just > asking for ONE property all good poems have. > > Does anyone think there isn't one? > > --Bob Possibly Wittgenstein for one. Didn't he say that just because all games shared a family resemblance [and that we could "all" recognise any particular game *as a game) this didn't mean that there was necessarily *any single [sic] quality common to *all games? As with games, so with poetry ... There's something positively admirable about the consistency of your Platonic Essentialism, Bob, but I think you need to review Linguistics 101. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 6 20:55:42 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:55:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <995100.37212.qm@web87114.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <995100.37212.qm@web87114.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6E1D9E.406@nut-n-but.net> ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: > Bob wrote: > > >> I'm >> starting small, just >> asking for ONE property all good poems have. >> >> Does anyone think there isn't one? >> >> --Bob >> > > Possibly Wittgenstein for one. Didn't he say that just because all games shared a family resemblance [and that we could "all" recognise any particular game *as a game) this didn't mean that there was necessarily *any single [sic] quality common to *all games? > > As with games, so with poetry ... > > There's something positively admirable about the consistency of your Platonic Essentialism, Bob, but I think you need to review Linguistics 101. > > Robin > Guess what, Robin: Wittgenstein was a halfwit. Just because he couldn't find a quality or property common to all games doesn't mean there isn't one, nor--if he was right about games--does it follow that no class of things exists not all of whose members share one or more properties. All eggs, for instance, contain potential life. Also, he seems not to have known the doctrine of what I call effectual absolutism: the idea that while no statement can be shown to be absolutely true, many statements can be shown to be effectually absolutely true, such as the fact that the moon is a solid object that revolves around the earth. Similarly, whereas there may be no property that every game absolutely shares, there is undoubtedly a property that they effectually absolutely share. Something having to do with a kind of unseriousness or a seriousness an order of magnitude less than the seriousness of avoiding starvation. It would take days of thinking, I suspect, to get it right, but it can be done, I'm sure. Some kind of facsimile of real life that isn't real life--football as a facsimile of war, a con game as a facsimile of fair commerce, etc. I hope I won't waste too much time on it, but I may think of it from time to time enough to figure it all out. In the meantime, tell me, do you really believe a text can be incoherent yet be a good poem? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 6 21:42:08 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 18:42:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002061842p5b18f36dwcb108eb74a8d3e9f@mail.gmail.com> Lovely, Uche. Judy with Langston Christopher Prince and William Jasper Prince ready for dinner [in L.A.] On 6 February 2010 16:09, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Well, I think we would intuitively know the slantness was there, and even > > vaguely what it was. It would just take a while in some cases to isolate > > and define it. Aside from that, I'm starting small, just asking for ONE > > property all good poems have. > > A lipstick mark left by Calliope or Erato. Preferably with a forensic > certification to ensure the mark is not a forgery. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 23:32:17 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:32:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> <4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I'd say there's no necessary one. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: Well, I think we would intuitively know the slantness was there, and even vaguely what it was. It would just take a while in some cases to isolate and define it. Aside from that, I'm starting small, just asking for ONE property all good poems have. > > Does anyone think there isn't one? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 04:11:51 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:11:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Puddly Awards Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070111kefba023x621caaefa5ac205b@mail.gmail.com> *Thanks to all who participated in this year's Powells.com Puddly Awards! You voted in droves for the best book of the decade, and the results are in... Visit our winners pageto see who took home the Golden Galoshes. * -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 04:17:11 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:17:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] University of Bielefeld, Germany Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070117k42e61052x1910f23d8d90c5e9@mail.gmail.com> *Simultaneity, Multiplicity and Chaos in Cityscapes in the Americas and Beyond: * *Representations of Urban Complexity in Literature, Film and Media* *Representaciones de complejidad urbana en literatura, cine y media* * * *Location: University of Bielefeld, Germany* *Room D3-121* *June 25-26th 2010* *Organizers: Wilfried Raussert (University of Bielefeld) / Jens Gurr (University of Duisburg-Essen)* * * * * This interdisciplinary conference will put an emphasis on urban spaces and their representations in literature, film, and media. Proposals should address the role of the urban in literary, social, and cultural discourses in the 20th and 21st century. The conference will focus on theories of the urban, wants to explore the role of the city as site for transnational, cosmopolitan as well as local processes of identity formation and their intersections, intends to reflect the urban as a mirror of aesthetic, cultural and social innovations and aims at discussing the city in the context of urban planning, tourism, and commodity culture. Our regional focus will be on the Americas, but comparative perspectives on other regions are also welcome. As a unifying theme, we propose the issue of "urban complexity": How are the complex interdependencies of identity, urban space, migration, demographic change and urban growth (or shrinkage, as the case may be) represented? How do representations of the urban highlight the global connections between individuals and groups in cities around the world? Which strategies of representing multiplicity, simultaneity, chaos and complexity are media-specific, which transcend media? In order to guarantee for a coherent conference and a focused volume of proceedings, which the organizers plan to publish in book form, all papers should in one way or another address the representation of "urban complexity". The conference wants to support and present the work of young scholars in particular and invites doctoral students to submit proposals. The conference languages will be English and Spanish The organizers plan to publish the conference proceedings in book form. Please send a brief curriculum vitae and one-page abstracts in English/Spanish to: wilfried.raussert at uni-bielefeld.de latest by March 31st2010. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 04:18:46 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:18:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the American Studies journal at the University of Bucharest Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070118k2d0b3c8dpd233d961ef61af5e@mail.gmail.com> It gives me great pleasure to let you know that the latest issue of [Inter]sections, the American Studies journal at the University of Bucharest, is now ready and posted online here: http://www.americanstudies.ro/?article=55 Our next issue will be coming out in March 2010, since [Inter]sections has become a peer-reviewed trimestrial publication with *only two core sections (graduate and undergraduate)*, with longer and fewer papers which may allow for more fully developed arguments, and a larger number of special issues. Please feel free to submit/encourage your students to submit American Studies-related material by January 31, 2010 (publication guidelines available in our latest issue). Below you can find the table of contents of the latest [Inter]sections issue: [Inter]sections # 8, October-December 2009 TABLE OF CONTENTS: *INTERVIEW* [Inter]sections Interviews American poet Carla Harryman * GRADUATE SECTION* The Violent Woman: Nomadic Identities in Toni Morrison?s *Jazz *by Elena-Adriana Dancu Art for Life?s Sake: Lolita?s Posthumous Legacy and Lesson by Laura Savu The Strange Palimpsestic Body of *The Hours *by Ioana Pelehat?i ** The Anti-Slavery Movement of 19th Century America and the Fight for Women?s Rights by Ilinca Diaconu *Hebben Is Up: *Reasons for Leaving the South during the Great Black Migration by Mihaela Mircia *AMERICAN STUDIES IN ROMANIA *with Silvia Filip I would also like to wish you all a Happy New Year! best, Mihaela Precup ----------------------------- Read [Inter]sections at www.americanstudies.ro ...and PUBLISH or PERISH! Mihaela Precup Assistant Professor American Studies Program Faculty of Foreign Languages and Literatures University of Bucharest 7-13, Pitar Mos St. Tel. (+40)213181586 Fax (+40)213181585 mihaela.precup at americanstudies.ro http://www.americanstudies.ro/?article=12 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 04:20:10 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:20:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Beyond the myth Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070120m82ddf9dta5d9e1606ed6878e@mail.gmail.com> 1ST CALL FOR PAPERS II INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THE AMERICAN LITERARY WEST: BEYOND THE MYTH University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU), Vitoria-Gasteiz (Spain) 7-8 October, 2010 This international conference, organized by the research group REWEST (Research in Western American Literature: www.ehu.es/rewest), will focus on the different ways in which literary interpreters of the American West have shaped and reshaped traditional western imagery and themes. We would like this conference to offer as diverse and rich a picture of current research on the literature of the American West as possible. We particularly invite specialists of western American studies to consider the literary representation of the complex interaction between the mythic dimension of the West and its real historical, social, and cultural features. Papers can address a variety of critical issues in literary studies of the West: - the role of "place", "space", and "region" in western writing - the interplay between myth and history - the construction and deconstruction of western stereotypes - gender politics and power - masculinity and cowboy mythology - border landscapes and narratives - race and ethnicity (multiculturalism, assimilation, exclusion, transculturation...) - immigration and exile - forgotten and neglected Wests - the impact of globalization, urbanization, science, and technology on the West - nature writing, ecocritical perspectives, and environmental concerns - the popular West - memory and (auto) biography in the West - the New West - class issues - religion in the American West - personal / regional identity (re/de) construction in the West - the role of family and relationships - the American West in non-U.S. literatures - cultural transfers between literature and films... Papers should not exceed 10 pages (2,500-3,000 words: 20 minutes? delivery). Although English will be the official language of the Conference, papers in Spanish or Basque will also be accepted. The conference will be held at the Faculty of Arts and Humanities, University of the Basque Country, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Spain. Confirmed plenary speakers: Neil Campbell (U. Derby), David Fenimore (U. Nevada-Reno) Confirmed keynote writers: Phyllis Barber, Gregory Martin Please submit your proposal (300 words) plus a brief CV to the conference organizers by April 30, 2010. Proposals should be submitted via e-mail to David Rio (david.rio at ehu.es), including copies to Amaia Ibarraran (amaia.ibarraran at ehu.es) and Martin Simonson (martin.simonson at ehu.es). -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 06:46:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 06:46:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-b ut.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > I'd say there's no necessary one. Which means that you don't think a good poem needs to be coherent. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 06:50:22 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 06:50:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-b ut.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B6EA8FE.3000404@nut-n-but.net> Coherent in some way, I mean, not necessarily semantically, although I can't think of an asemic way it could be coherent and still be a poem (which I take as defined a priori as a thing containing something verbal). --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 07:38:05 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 07:38:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <995100.37212.qm@web87114.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC7609878F6A64-31C4-199BC@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> A few years ago I read an essay taking this 'family resemblance' idea from Wittgenstein and using it try to solve the "Poetry is..." or Poetry = __________" problem of definition. The essay was not speaking to what makes a good/great poem, however. Which is a knottier problem. I'll try to find the exact reference or URL. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: ROBIN HAMILTON To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant Bob wrote: > I'm starting small, just asking for ONE property all good poems have. Does anyone think there isn't one? --Bob Possibly Wittgenstein for one. Didn't he say that just because all games shared family resemblance [and that we could "all" recognise any particular game *as game) this didn't mean that there was necessarily *any single [sic] quality ommon to *all games? As with games, so with poetry ... There's something positively admirable about the consistency of your Platonic ssentialism, Bob, but I think you need to review Linguistics 101. Robin ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 08:16:57 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:16:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> <4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> eThe problem of reducing a good/great poem to one necessary element is that we an always find the case that disproves the rule. A good/great poem can get away with one or more elements, things are generally present in the typical case, by compesating with many other elements/factors in its favor. Coh -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: halvard at gmail.com; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant Halvard Johnson wrote: I'd say there's no necessary one. Which means that you don't think a good poem needs to be coherent. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 08:27:37 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:27:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> <4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net> <8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC761072E24146-31C4-19F34@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> That last email slipped before I'd finished it... starting over... The problem of reducing a good/great poem to one necessary element is that we can always find the case that disproves the rule. A good/great poem can get away without one or more elements, important things generally present in the typical case, by compesating with many other elements/factors in its favor. 'Coherence' wouldn't be one of my necessary conditions for a good/great poem. I'm a little surprised, Bob, with your vizpo interests, you're taking up that particular element of 'coherence' as somehow essental. I think of certain Hart Crane poems, esp. in the collection White Buildings, that don't necessarily have a quality we'd conventionally call coherence. Finnega -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant Coh -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: halvard at gmail.com; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant Halvard Johnson wrote: I'd say there's no necessary one. Which means that you don't think a good poem needs to be coherent. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 08:32:16 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:32:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC7611195F1297-31C4-19FD0@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> What about redness from having its face slapped? I think we might find a poem or two that managed to offend one or more of the Muses and still be quite good. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Uche Ogbuji To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: Well, I think we would intuitively know the slantness was there, and even vaguely what it was. It would just take a while in some cases to isolate and define it. Aside from that, I'm starting small, just asking for ONE property all good poems have. A lipstick mark left by Calliope or Erato. Preferably with a forensic ertification to ensure the mark is not a forgery. - che Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net ounding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com inked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji rticles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ NB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ riendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche witter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji ttp://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 08:46:00 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:46:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-b ut.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net><4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net> <8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6EC418.7060307@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > The problem of reducing a good/great poem to one necessary element is > that we an always find the case that disproves the rule. But no one yet has found an example of an incoherent good poem. Also, it's not a matter of reducing a good poem to one necessary element, but of finding one element all good poems have, which I think is a different proposition. That one element does not make a good poem, it is just something a good poem must have. A good car must have the ability to move. But a poem is sacred, unlike a car. so my analogy is pointless. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 09:12:28 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:12:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC761072E24146-31C4-19F34@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-b ut.net><4B6E04C8.802@nut-n-but.net><4B6EA82B.3040300@nut-n-but.net><8CC760EF56624E3-31C4-19DDE@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> <8CC761072E24146-31C4-19F34@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6ECA4C.5020607@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > That last email slipped before I'd finished it... starting over... > > The problem of reducing a good/great poem to one necessary element is > that we can always find the case that disproves the rule. > > A good/great poem can get away without one or more elements, important > things generally present in the typical case, by compesating > with many other elements/factors in its favor. > I think one can find a generality that covers all such other elements. I think no one can give me an example of a good poem that is not in some way unique. In may cases this would mean not that it had one unique detail but that the organization of its un-unique details was unique. > 'Coherence' wouldn't be one of my necessary conditions for a > good/great poem. I'm a little surprised, Bob, with your vizpo > interests, you're taking up that particular element of 'coherence' as > somehow essental. I have big ongoing arguments with most "visual poets" about just that. I claim things they call visual poems are not poems because they lack semantic coherence--however admirable they may be (and often seem to me) in other ways.. > > I think of certain Hart Crane poems, esp. in the collection White > Buildings, that don't necessarily have a quality we'd conventionally > call coherence. > Finnegan They have to communicate something. If they do, they have coherence. The problem here is what definition of poetry one starts with. I would say, for instance, if an incoherent text, like some of Stein's are for me, makes pretty sounds, some will call it a good poem. I would call it a perhaps good piece of music. I define a poem to begin with as something linguistic. Asemic sounds are not linguistic. Quote a complete incoherent poem to me you think is good. I bet I can find its coherence, or show that what makes it a good poem for you has nothing to do with poetry. On the other hand, I now think maybe verbal sounds can make a semantically null poem good. For some people, at least. In which case I would propose a general term that covered coherence and melodiousness. It's easy to do using my theory of psychology, but I'm the only one who doesn't consider that worthless, and it's too complicated to get into, so I won't try to do it. Change coherence to verbal appropriateness (a tentative term I hope fo replace with a better) which is, and my theory does get into this, a connection from some part of a text to some other part that an engagent of the text recognizes as valid. Examples: "birds/ sing": each word is a part of a text; they connect semantically; "birf lirf": two parts of a text that connect melodationally (by rhyming). Negative example: "birf/ cbd": two parts of a text that do not connect and thus fail to achieve verbal appropriateness. Same old same old, right, Jeff? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 10:51:16 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 16:51:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birgitta Jonsdottir Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070751p28e8e0c0v97617d2774a566b4@mail.gmail.com> , poet, joined Parliament. http://joyb.blogspot.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Feb 7 12:15:24 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:15:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant In-Reply-To: <8CC7609878F6A64-31C4-199BC@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <995100.37212.qm@web87114.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <8CC7609878F6A64-31C4-199BC@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002070915x409caa08i30758ff3960297ed@mail.gmail.com> I'd be interested in that article, Finnegan. [I'm addressing Bob in this message as well as Finnegan, BTW.] As I recall from Bob's WEPD [*What Excellent Poems Do*....or *What an Excellent Poem Does*], he and Barry Espax and I agreed that the several bits were not necessary and sufficient conditions. In other words, a poem could be missing one or more of the listed bits and still "qualify" as an Excellent poem. Then there was the Banana Poem which blew us outa the water, but then it had to happen that someone [that reprobate Barry] would wedge a hammer in the works. The prob, Bob, isn't your keen WEPD, but in your running around intellectually trying to be The Most Correct Analyst, taking off like a heat-seeking missile towards any moving target that takes the least issue with you on anything and then like a dog worrying a bone on the whole damned usually Very Slight Of Consequence issue until it's like a marriage quarrel in which the wife has to be right or the husband has to be right or else they take their immature, selfish marbles elsewhere to play. But you, Bob, never take your marbles away, you just keep throwing them into the ring until we want to rip your wings off like a perennially chirping cricket's. However, my daily morning prayer says in part: "You untie me from my past mistakes, as I release others from their past mistakes." In other words, I won't judge your future behaviour based upon your past behaviours. Alas, the struggle for emotional health comes slowly on, and always best with patience. I watch my emotional and spiritual paint dry on the wall. ah......that felt good. Judy On 7 February 2010 04:38, wrote: > A few years ago I read an essay taking this 'family resemblance' idea > from Wittgenstein and using it try to solve the > "Poetry is..." or Poetry = __________" problem of definition. > > The essay was not speaking to what makes a good/great poem, > however. Which is a knottier problem. > > I'll try to find the exact reference or URL. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: ROBIN HAMILTON > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:58 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Telling it slant > > Bob wrote: > > > I'm > > starting small, just > > asking for ONE property all good poems have. > > > > Does anyone think there isn't one? > > > > --Bob > > Possibly Wittgenstein for one. Didn't he say that just because all games shared > a family resemblance [and that we could "all" recognise any particular game *as > a game) this didn't mean that there was necessarily *any single [sic] quality > common to *all games? > > As with games, so with poetry ... > > There's something positively admirable about the consistency of your Platonic > Essentialism, Bob, but I think you need to review Linguistics 101. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 12:50:51 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:50:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] paul green Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002070950k132efcb3kd3624e1cb30a5f76@mail.gmail.com> http://web.mac.com/qbsaul1/iWeb/Radio%20QBSaul/Radio%20QBSaul/Radio%20QBSaul.html I also reached: http://www.myspace.com/twentysystems -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 16:47:29 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:47:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it does with language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a pyschological reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even good ones lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of work ever be said to be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we reserve for larger undertakings (sonnet length to epic); there must be sufficient ambit. We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered quintessential, evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from the body of the work, how can the haiku stand alone and be recognized as great poem. Finnegan (Recently spurlged on set RH Blythe's multi-volume set. Which I became aware of in this post on Issa's Untidy Hut... http://lilliputreview.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiku-edited-by-peter-washington.html Awaiting delivery and will likely reasses post lectum) -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is jforjames at aol.com wrote: Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. The material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the language out of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. Things must be happenning in the poem on the level of language that are sufficiently unexpected. Finnegan A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible language. What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional haiku even tries to avoid artiful language of any kind whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that a good poem must have something slant in it, but it needn't be language. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 17:05:38 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:05:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem's 'family resemblance' via LW Message-ID: <8CC7658D0F8AC3C-7204-BDA4@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Pierce, Robert B. Defining "Poetry" http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_and_literature/v027/27.1pierce.html I think this was article I was referring to re Robin's post. (I sure wish I could get into these academic article websites, like Project Muse and JSTOR. If anyone knows of a way paying a modest fee to a library or literary association in order to get the keys to kingdom, please backchannel.) Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 7 17:07:13 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:07:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oh western wind when wilt thou blow that the small rains down can rain? Oh that my love were in my arms and I in my bed again. Some very short poems create a set of boundaries enclosing an enormous space for the reader's imagination to discover. A propos the haiku, here's my version of a famous one by Basho: Frog jumps in. You hadda be there. At 04:47 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: >The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it >does with language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a >pyschological reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. > >The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even >good ones lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of >work ever be said to be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we >reserve for larger undertakings (sonnet length to epic); there must >be sufficient ambit. > >We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered >quintessential, evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from >the body of the work, how can the haiku stand alone and be >recognized as great poem. > >Finnegan >(Recently spurlged on set RH Blythe's multi-volume set. Which I >became aware of in this post on Issa's Untidy Hut... >http://lilliputreview.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiku-edited-by-peter-washington.html >Awaiting delivery and will likely reasses post lectum) >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:38 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > >jforjames at aol.com wrote: >>Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. >>The material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the >>language out of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. >>Things must be happenning in the poem on the level of language that >>are sufficiently unexpected. >> >>Finnegan >A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible >language. What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional >haiku even tries to avoid artiful language of any kind >whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that a good poem must have >something slant in it, but it needn't be language. > >--Bob > > _______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 17:11:21 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:11:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] super bowl poem, posted annually Message-ID: <8CC76599CFE464C-7204-BE91@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio In the Shreve High football stadium, I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville, And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood, And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel, Dreaming of heroes. All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home. Their women cluck like starved pullets, Dying for love. Therefore, Their sons grows suicidally beautiful At the beginning of October, And gallop terribly against each other?s bodies. ?James Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 17:21:53 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:21:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6F3D01.5030103@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it does > with language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a > pyschological reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. > > The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even good > ones lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of work ever > be said to be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we reserve for > larger undertakings (sonnet length to epic); there must be sufficient > ambit. > > We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered > quintessential, evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from > the body of the work, how can the haiku stand alone and be recognized > as great poem. > > Finnegan All I can say, James, is that I disagree with you about the value of haiku. Remember, I think "lighght" one of the hundred best poems ever composed. Intensity is at least as important as size. I won't say more because of the danger that I'll say something intelligent and bother Judy. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:20:11 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 16:20:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Pound's Metro station also comes to mind in this respect. Smallness seems no necessary bar to greatness. Not to mention this one: New Year's Day-- everything is in blossom! I feel about average. --Issa Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Oh western wind when wilt thou blow that the small rains down can rain? > Oh that my love were in my arms and I in my bed again. > > Some very short poems create a set of boundaries enclosing an enormous > space for the reader's imagination to discover. > > A propos the haiku, here's my version of a famous one by Basho: > > Frog jumps in. > > You hadda be there. > > > At 04:47 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: > > The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it does with > language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a pyschological > reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. > > The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even good ones > lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of work ever be said to > be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we reserve for larger undertakings > (sonnet length to epic); there must be sufficient ambit. > > We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered quintessential, > evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from the body of the work, > how can the haiku stand alone and be recognized as great poem. > > Finnegan > (Recently spurlged on set RH Blythe's multi-volume set. Which I became > aware of in this post on Issa's Untidy Hut... > http://lilliputreview.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiku-edited-by-peter-washington.html > Awaiting delivery and will likely reasses post lectum) > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:38 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. The > material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the language out > of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. Things must be > happenning in the poem on the level of language that are sufficiently > unexpected. > > Finnegan > > A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible language. > What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional haiku even tries to > avoid artiful language of any kind whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that > a good poem must have something slant in it, but it needn't be language. > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 17:23:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:23:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem's 'family resemblance' via LW In-Reply-To: <8CC7658D0F8AC3C-7204-BDA4@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7658D0F8AC3C-7204-BDA4@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6F3D77.3070007@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Pierce, Robert B. > Defining "Poetry" > http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_and_literature/v027/27.1pierce.html > > I think this was article I was referring to re Robin's post. (I sure > wish I could get into these academic article websites, like Project > Muse and JSTOR. If anyone knows of a way paying a modest fee to a > library or literary association in order to get the keys to kingdom, > please backchannel.) > Finnegan No, please post for ALL of us. I want to read something in an Internet scholarly publication called English Studies or something like that. Can't afford the fee, and don't have a college library nearby that might make it available. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 7 17:30:02 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:30:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> My fuller version of the Basho: old pond; the sound of a frog, splashing in. The "old pond" is essential; the "old" is essential. I know of no poem as complex as this one, although some are complex for a longer time. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 7 17:36:09 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:36:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Sometimes a sense of humor helps. At 05:30 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: >My fuller version of the Basho: > >old pond; > >the sound of a frog, > >splashing in. > >The "old pond" is essential; the "old" is essential. I know of >no poem as complex as this one, although some are complex >for a longer time. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 7 17:39:36 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:39:36 -0500 Subject: PS: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: The beans turned out lovely, tho perhaps a tad on the spicy side. May need to mix in some sour cream. Yummy. At 05:36 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: >Sometimes a sense of humor helps. > >At 05:30 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: >>My fuller version of the Basho: >> >>old pond; >> >>the sound of a frog, >> >>splashing in. >> >>The "old pond" is essential; the "old" is essential. I know of >>no poem as complex as this one, although some are complex >>for a longer time. >> >>--Bob >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheekc at muohio.edu Sun Feb 7 18:22:10 2010 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:22:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a bash at the basho In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <30171BF8-5846-4EB1-864E-1CFEF3046791@muohio.edu> o l d p o n d . . . f r o g j u m p s . i n t h e w a t e r t i m e . o f . s o u n d actually that's pretty terrible back to the drawing board xx cc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 7 20:19:39 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:19:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> I can't argue with that. And, like definitions of poetry, as soon as one tries to set parameters, along comes an example to bound over them. But here's another thought on a poem like Pound's. How much of its greatness inheres as part of the work itself and how much is an accrual of critical attention? As if those two aspects can be differentiated as time goes on. There is nothing to find fault with in the poem. But would this small lyric loom as large as does in the history of poetry if it was not part of Pound's genius for provocations...influenced by the Japanese poetry and concepts of Imagisme, the poem is now more an emblem of change: Look English poetry, there are other cultures doing different things in poetry and a couple lines of well-seen imagery, cast in free verse, that's a poem too. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is Pound's Metro station also comes to mind in this respect. Smallness seems no necessary bar to greatness. Not to mention this one: New Year's Day-- everything is in blossom! I feel about average. --Issa Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: Oh western wind when wilt thou blow that the small rains down can rain? Oh that my love were in my arms and I in my bed again. Some very short poems create a set of boundaries enclosing an enormous space for the reader's imagination to discover. A propos the haiku, here's my version of a famous one by Basho: Frog jumps in. You hadda be there. At 04:47 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it does with language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a pyschological reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even good ones lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of work ever be said to be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we reserve for larger undertakings (sonnet length to epic); there must be sufficient ambit. We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered quintessential, evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from the body of the work, how can the haiku stand alone and be recognized as great poem. Finnegan (Recently spurlged on set RH Blythe's multi-volume set. Which I became aware of in this post on Issa's Untidy Hut... http://lilliputreview.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiku-edited-by-peter-washington.html Awaiting delivery and will likely reasses post lectum) -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is jforjames at aol.com wrote: Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. The material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the language out of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. Things must be happenning in the poem on the level of language that are sufficiently unexpected. Finnegan A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible language. What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional haiku even tries to avoid artiful language of any kind whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that a good poem must have something slant in it, but it needn't be language. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 21:00:41 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 20:00:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7588922E45EC-4558-23837@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <4B6E0B91.1010007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Anything depends on everything, JF. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:19 PM, wrote: > I can't argue with that. And, like definitions of poetry, as soon as one > tries to set parameters, along comes an example to bound over them. > > But here's another thought on a poem like Pound's. How much of its > greatness inheres as part of the work itself and how much is an accrual of > critical attention? As if those two aspects can be differentiated as time > goes on. > > There is nothing to find fault with in the poem. But would this small lyric > loom as large as does in the history of poetry if it was not part > of Pound's genius for provocations...influenced by the Japanese poetry and > concepts of Imagisme, the poem is now more > an emblem of change: Look English poetry, there are other cultures doing > different things in poetry and a couple lines of well-seen imagery, cast in > free verse, that's a poem too. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 5:20 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is > > Pound's Metro station also comes to mind in this respect. > Smallness seems no necessary bar to greatness. > > Not to mention this one: > > New Year's Day-- > everything is in blossom! > I feel about average. > > --Issa > > > Hal > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Oh western wind when wilt thou blow that the small rains down can rain? >> Oh that my love were in my arms and I in my bed again. >> >> Some very short poems create a set of boundaries enclosing an enormous >> space for the reader's imagination to discover. >> >> A propos the haiku, here's my version of a famous one by Basho: >> >> Frog jumps in. >> >> You hadda be there. >> >> >> At 04:47 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: >> >> The haiku is a special case. It is necessarily short, and what it does >> with language is a strong juxtaposing of images to create a pyschological >> reaction or unexpected recognition of the 'real' seen anew. >> >> The problem with the haiku is it's lack of scale (and often even good ones >> lack complexity). Can one haiku cut off from a body of work ever be said to >> be great? Good yes, but 'great' I think we reserve for larger undertakings >> (sonnet length to epic); there must be sufficient ambit. >> >> We have great haiku poets, and certain poems are considered >> quintessential, evidence of mastery and greatness, but cut off from the body >> of the work, how can the haiku stand alone and be recognized as great poem. >> >> Finnegan >> (Recently spurlged on set RH Blythe's multi-volume set. Which I became >> aware of in this post on Issa's Untidy Hut... >> >> http://lilliputreview.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiku-edited-by-peter-washington.html >> Awaiting delivery and will likely reasses post lectum) >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Grumman >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 7:38 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is >> >> jforjames at aol.com wrote: >> >> Last criterion: Language (word choices and their order) matters. The >> material is language. No poem can be great unless it pushes the language out >> of the rutted cartpath of prose, as in ordinary usage. Things must be >> happenning in the poem on the level of language that are sufficiently >> unexpected. >> >> Finnegan >> >> A problem here is that haiku tends to use the plainest possible language. >> What counts is the juxtaposition of images. Traditional haiku even tries to >> avoid artiful language of any kind whatever. Hence, I prefer the idea that >> a good poem must have something slant in it, but it needn't be language. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afilreis at writing.upenn.edu Sun Feb 7 21:02:36 2010 From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu (Al Filreis) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:02:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" Message-ID: http://afilreis.blogspot.com/2010/02/top-pennsound-poets-for-january.html Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Feb 7 21:46:02 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:46:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> It's the hair it's the gelato it's the detritus it's the thermometer it's the space between my toes it's the corruscant calcification of my nose Yrs entirely, jbp On 7 February 2010 18:02, Al Filreis wrote: > http://afilreis.blogspot.com/2010/02/top-pennsound-poets-for-january.html > > Al Filreis > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sun Feb 7 22:16:10 2010 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:16:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Robert Dana 1929-2010 Message-ID: <480A8544-44A4-40B5-9304-82B2C12534CD@ripon.edu> Dancing My twelve-tone wind chime, the gift of a friend the year before he divorced, is playing church music. Carillon, post- Easter, dusk music. Not the wild stuff it was crashing out evening before last, chords more Beethoven than Schoenberg, more wind-gust than anything. It's April Fool's Day eve. So maybe the music is a joke. Maybe my old friend's three room, third floor, attic apartment is a joke, in that peeling frame house smelling of curries and tandoori, cumin, and coriander, and hot peppers. For a while, he had a lover. For a while, he wrote poems as fast as they came to him, and read them in bookstores, on streetcorners, and in Victorian park pavilions with a view of the Hudson. Every night, when he returns home, his landlord's children speak to him softly in English tinged with accents of Islamabad or Madr?s. So what's he doing standing there in the sudden spring snow, under the still bare, expectant trees? He's calm now. I think he's on lithium. Maybe he's humming a little, something from Mozart, as he counts the flakes. Maybe, without moving, he's dancing. --Robert Dana. Summer. Anhinga Press, 1996. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:01:30 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:01:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7588922E45EC-4558-238 37@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><4B6E0B9 1.1010007@nut-n-but.net><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B6FFD1A.5060907@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > I can't argue with that. And, like definitions of poetry, as soon as > one tries to set parameters, along comes an example to bound over them. I'm constantly accused of constantly repeating my boilerplate points. To this charge I plead guilty, but with mitigating circumstances, to wit: the fact that my boilerplate is constantly ignored, as here. Jim is say, again, that poems are undefinable. This is a null statement because EVERYTHING is undefinable if you require a definition to cover every imaginable and unimaginable case. Do we claim an inch is undefinable because anyone can find something whose length or width no instrument can positively identify as either an inch or not-quite-an-inch. What's a human being? A fetus? A fetus at a certain age? A fertilized egg? If the latter, exactly when does an egg become fertilized? If you can be absolutely certain, then the definition fails. My contention is that EVERYTHING can be EFFECTUALLY defined. By this I mean that everything can be defined effectually enough to cover 99.999999999% of the things it is intended to cover. So it is with my definition of poetry, which I won't bore anyone with repeating, not because I want to be nice but because it would be a waste of time. One more pice of boilerplate. Knowledge is impossible without effectual definitions, which in turn require effectually true taxonomization. > > But here's another thought on a poem like Pound's. How much of its > greatness inheres as part of the work itself and how much is > an accrual of critical attention? As if those two aspects can > be differentiated as time goes on. Interesting question which seems to me to be close to "how much of greatness is an accrual of /any kind /of attention. So we're to a truism, it seems to me: a great poem is a poem that attracts comparatively wide, intense and long-lasting attention. Which simply changes the question to "What property or properties of a poem cause it to attract comparatively wide, intense and long-lasting attention?" > > There is nothing to find fault with in the poem. But would this small > lyric loom as large as does in the history of poetry if it was not > part of Pound's genius for provocations...influenced by the Japanese > poetry and concepts of Imagisme, the poem is now more > an emblem of change: Look English poetry, there are other cultures > doing different things in poetry and a couple lines > of well-seen imagery, cast in free verse, that's a poem too. > Finnegan You remind me of something special about haiku (like a few other forms such as the sonnet, but not many): every haiku is substantially larger and more complex than most other poems before an engagent reads its first word because it is an implicit word for "haiku tradition." That is, the fact that a poem on a page in front of you is a haiku awakens two worlds inside you before you begin engaging the body of it: the world of poetry that any poem awakens in you, and the special quite rich world of haiku. You enter a temple, in fact--assuming you are an initiate. --Bob, as unshut-uppable as ever -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:04:47 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:04:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> It's something whose definition is so much easier and satisfying to joke about than discuss, and be threatened by. --Boring Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 07:13:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:13:44 +0100 Subject: PS: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002080413n1618653dre47757f07ccc3f61@mail.gmail.com> I love beans, crijoles! On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > The beans turned out lovely, tho perhaps a tad on the spicy side. May need > to mix in some sour cream. Yummy. > > At 05:36 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: > > Sometimes a sense of humor helps. > > At 05:30 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote: > > My fuller version of the Basho: > > old pond; > > the sound of a frog, > > splashing in. > > The "old pond" is essential; the "old" is essential. I know of > no poem as complex as this one, although some are complex > for a longer time. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 07:15:41 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:15:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a bash at the basho In-Reply-To: <30171BF8-5846-4EB1-864E-1CFEF3046791@muohio.edu> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net> <30171BF8-5846-4EB1-864E-1CFEF3046791@muohio.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002080415y3d01f70dpc4f1cd196aaa7c03@mail.gmail.com> sound old pond gong drop drop drop On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:22 AM, cris cheek wrote: > o l d p o n d . . . > > f r o g j u m p s . i n t h e w a t e r > > t i m e . o f . s o > u n d > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually that's pretty terrible > > back to the drawing board > > > > > > xx > > > > cc > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:23:46 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:23:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a bash at the basho In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002080415y3d01f70dpc4f1cd196aaa7c03@mail.gmail.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-b ut.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com><4B6F3EEA.9030104@nut-n-but.net><30171BF8-5846-4EB1-864E-1CFEF3046791@muohio.edu> <4b65c2d71002080415y3d01f70dpc4f1cd196aaa7c03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B700252.7040301@nut-n-but.net> old gong a poet bonks it From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 07:22:46 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:22:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B6FFD1A.5060907@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4B6FFD1A.5060907@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com> I am picking up on the statement that everything can be effectually definied yes, if you speak of potatoes. Not with art, at least not in your own time, if of art you speak, otherwise you speak of something which might be art but not *art in its making*, this is the particular quality of creation, as ol' Pound would say, it should be new and by being new it has not been defined, yet. On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > I can't argue with that. And, like definitions of poetry, as soon as one > tries to set parameters, along comes an example to bound over them. > > I'm constantly accused of constantly repeating my boilerplate points. To > this charge I plead guilty, but with mitigating circumstances, to wit: the > fact that my boilerplate is constantly ignored, as here. > > Jim is say, again, that poems are undefinable. This is a null statement > because EVERYTHING is undefinable if you require a definition to cover every > imaginable and unimaginable case. Do we claim an inch is undefinable > because anyone can find something whose length or width no instrument can > positively identify as either an inch or not-quite-an-inch. What's a > human being? A fetus? A fetus at a certain age? A fertilized egg? If the > latter, exactly when does an egg become fertilized? If you can be > absolutely certain, then the definition fails. > > My contention is that EVERYTHING can be EFFECTUALLY defined. By this I > mean that everything can be defined effectually enough to cover > 99.999999999% of the things it is intended to cover. So it is with my > definition of poetry, which I won't bore anyone with repeating, not because > I want to be nice but because it would be a waste of time. > > One more pice of boilerplate. Knowledge is impossible without effectual > definitions, which in turn require effectually true taxonomization. > > > > > > But here's another thought on a poem like Pound's. How much of its > greatness inheres as part of the work itself and how much is an accrual of > critical attention? As if those two aspects can be differentiated as time > goes on. > > Interesting question which seems to me to be close to "how much of > greatness is an accrual of *any kind *of attention. So we're to a truism, > it seems to me: a great poem is a poem that attracts comparatively wide, > intense and long-lasting attention. Which simply changes the question to > "What property or properties of a poem cause it to attract comparatively > wide, intense and long-lasting attention?" > > > There is nothing to find fault with in the poem. But would this small lyric > loom as large as does in the history of poetry if it was not part > of Pound's genius for provocations...influenced by the Japanese poetry and > concepts of Imagisme, the poem is now more > an emblem of change: Look English poetry, there are other cultures doing > different things in poetry and a couple lines of well-seen imagery, cast in > free verse, that's a poem too. > Finnegan > > You remind me of something special about haiku (like a few other forms such > as the sonnet, but not many): every haiku is substantially larger and more > complex than most other poems before an engagent reads its first word > because it is an implicit word for "haiku tradition." That is, the fact > that a poem on a page in front of you is a haiku awakens two worlds inside > you before you begin engaging the body of it: the world of poetry that any > poem awakens in you, and the special quite rich world of haiku. You enter a > temple, in fact--assuming you are an initiate. > > --Bob, as unshut-uppable as ever > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 07:22:34 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:22:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> Why do you interpret threats to your narrow view of poetry as "threats"? Jeff Newberry On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > It's something whose definition > is so much easier and satisfying > to joke about than discuss, > and be threatened by. > > --Boring Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:26:29 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:26:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Lott's Reviewing Project In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B7002F5.8040807@nut-n-but.net> Has it begun yet, Chris? I hope you'll consider reviewing my /From Haiku To Lyriku/ or at least letting me know how it struck you. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 07:23:16 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:23:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002080423j1990cff9jd7b494d97bf7ba10@mail.gmail.com> Oh, hell, just ignore me. Clearly, I'm a nihilist. Posting too early, Jeff On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Why do you interpret threats to your narrow view of poetry as "threats"? > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> It's something whose definition >> is so much easier and satisfying >> to joke about than discuss, >> and be threatened by. >> >> --Boring Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:30:55 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:30:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7003FF.9040405@nut-n-but.net> Update, for the maybe one person who might someday be interested: I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will not become poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, it will become textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of the English woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at the moment. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:37:26 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:37:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B700586.8060306@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Why do you interpret threats to your narrow view of poetry as "threats"? I, of course, do not. Why do you almost never manage to understand what I say or do? Odd, by the way, that my view of poetry as including visual, sound, mathematical, cryptographic, performance and other kinds of work many people in poetry refuse to accept as poetry is "a narrow view." But I suppose the notion that not everything is poetry must seem narrow to some. (No, not necessarily to you, Jeff. My vague recollection is that you think some things are not poetry although you don't believe poetry can be defined.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 8 07:34:37 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:34:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B7003FF.9040405@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will > not become > poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, > it will become > textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of This seems perilously close to ruling Sound Poetry (Tristram Tzara, et alia) out of the running, in the same way that some have defined Concrete Poetry as not. > the English > woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at > the moment. Edith Sitwell? > --Bob Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:40:48 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:40:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DE963.2000606@nut-n-b ut.net><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com><8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com><4B6FFD1A.5060907@nu t-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B700650.1030400@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am picking up on the statement that > > everything can be effectually definied > > yes, if you speak of potatoes. Not with art, at least not in your own > time, if of art you speak, otherwise you speak of something which > might be art but not /art in its making/, this is the particular > quality of creation, as ol' Pound would say, it should be new and by > being new it has not been defined, yet. Seems to me you're just saying a poem can't be defined as a poem before it becomes a poem, Anny. But it can be effectually defined as a text with the potential to become a poem. Or as a partially-made, or incomplete, or unfinished poem. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 07:49:16 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:49:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: >> I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will >> not become >> poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, >> it will become >> textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of >> > > This seems perilously close to ruling Sound Poetry (Tristram Tzara, et alia) out of the running, in the same way that some have defined Concrete Poetry as not. > Tzara, yes. Some stuff called concrete poetry, yes. If a text has no semantic content it is, by my definition, not a poem. If that text has something that gives people hearing it auditory pleasure, it is textual music (again, by my definition). If that text is visually interesting, it is what I call "textual visimagery," the second word in the term being my coinage for "visual art," some such coinage being necessary in my opinion to avoid calling the text "textual visual art," which would seem equall textual and visual instead of being predominantly visual. I don't rule Tzara "out of the running" but in a different race. Too many people think that calling a person not a poet is the same as saying his work is worthless. > >> the English >> woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at >> the moment. >> > > Edith Sitwell? Right. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheekc at muohio.edu Mon Feb 8 08:54:21 2010 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:54:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <962D052B-4AAF-4E4B-A0EF-A044425F513F@muohio.edu> Bob what do you do with Zaum?? . . . I guess you are going to be deciding that some Schwitters is poetry and some is textual music? Hugo Ball? Are you going to say that some Sitwell has "semantic content" and some does not? Likewise Stein?? How are you going to deal with a poet such as Bob Cobbing . . . where semantic content, actual poems, cut-ups, the indecorous behaviors of ink, partials . . . etc converse . . . . Are you discounting Bernard Heidsieck?? How are you going to categorize different aspects of work(s) by Henri Chopin? What of Steve McCaffery performing panels from "Carnival"? It seems that during the course of what are often longer works you might slip between applying your definitions from one moment to the next?? xx cc On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:34 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: >> I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will >> not become >> poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, >> it will become >> textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of > > This seems perilously close to ruling Sound Poetry (Tristram Tzara, > et alia) out of the running, in the same way that some have defined > Concrete Poetry as not. > >> the English >> woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at >> the moment. > > Edith Sitwell? > >> --Bob > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cheekc at muohio.edu Mon Feb 8 08:57:49 2010 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:57:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> are you operating a reductive definition of "semantic" Bob? otherwise, for example: sounds, facial expressions, body language, proxemics have semantic (meaningful) content, and each has several branches of study xx cc On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: >> >>> I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will >>> not become >>> poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, >>> it will become >>> textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of >>> >> >> This seems perilously close to ruling Sound Poetry (Tristram >> Tzara, et alia) out of the running, in the same way that some have >> defined Concrete Poetry as not. >> > Tzara, yes. Some stuff called concrete poetry, yes. If a text has > no semantic content it is, by my definition, not a poem. If that > text has something that gives people hearing it auditory pleasure, > it is textual music (again, by my definition). If that text is > visually interesting, it is what I call "textual visimagery," the > second word in the term being my coinage for "visual art," some > such coinage being necessary in my opinion to avoid calling the > text "textual visual art," which would seem equall textual and > visual instead of being predominantly visual. > > I don't rule Tzara "out of the running" but in a different race. > Too many people think that calling a person not a poet is the same > as saying his work is worthless. > >> >>> the English >>> woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at >>> the moment. >>> >> >> Edith Sitwell? > Right. > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 09:06:37 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:06:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> There a three questions I don't allow to be asked in my poetry workshops--not because they are not good questions, but because they have no answers that a poet may use to write the next poem. I think of my prohibition as similar to the rule, in math, that you cannot divide by zero, because doing so immediately leads to absurd answers, contradictions and parodoxes. The questions are: 1. What is poetry? 2. What makes a poem a good poem? 3. What is the difference between poetry and prose? Who wouldn't want to know the answers? We all do. But the questions seem to lead away from the answers; the questions are not phrased correctly, or perhaps it is that the questions are premature, not ready to be asked or answered. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 09:29:05 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:29:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <962D052B-4AAF-4E4B-A0EF-A044425F513F@muohio.edu> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <962D052B-4AAF-4E4B-A0EF-A044425F513F@muohio.edu> Message-ID: <4B701FB1.4040501@nut-n-but.net> cris cheek wrote: > Bob what do you do with Zaum?? . . . > > I guess you are going to be deciding that some Schwitters is poetry > and some is textual music? Hugo Ball? > Are you going to say that some Sitwell has "semantic content" and some > does not? Likewise Stein?? > > How are you going to deal with a poet such as Bob Cobbing . . . where > semantic content, actual poems, cut-ups, the indecorous behaviors of > ink, partials . . . etc converse . . . . > > Are you discounting Bernard Heidsieck?? How are you going to > categorize different aspects of work(s) by Henri Chopin? What of Steve > McCaffery performing panels from "Carnival"? > > > It seems that during the course of what are often longer works you > might slip between applying your definitions from one moment to the > next?? > Pretty much yes to all of the above. Longer works certainly are tough. What a given work is mostly is what I'd categorize it as. Tolkien has poems in his novels but they remain novels. Etc. And I also accept that some works are uncategorizable. I'm only concerned with the 99.999999% that fit my categories. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 09:36:40 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:36:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> Message-ID: <4B702178.9080802@nut-n-but.net> cris cheek wrote: > > are you operating a reductive definition of "semantic" Bob? > probably. "Semantic" is one of too many terms that linguiphobes have destroyed. I mean by it, "verbal meaning." In a formal discussion, I'd probably not use the term. In a super-formal discussion, I'd use a term from my theory of psychology. "Semantic" as I use it would translate to something like "centriverbo-reducticeptual," meaning that the brain processes semantic data in the centriverbo subawareness of the reducticeptual awareness. Or that what the brain processes there is semantic. Except that I'm making up the terms because I can't remember what the ones I actually use are. They're similar to the made-up ones, though. Every definition I operate under is reductive. --Bob This will all be in my book about Shakespeare's eighteenth sonnet. > > > otherwise, for example: > > sounds, facial expressions, body language, proxemics > have semantic (meaningful) > content, and each has several branches of study > > > > > xx > > > cc > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: >>>> I now ordain a text that is semantically incoherent will >>>> not become >>>> poetry if it is what I would call melodationally coherent, >>>> it will become >>>> textual music-- as with certain pieces of Stein and many of >>>> >>> >>> This seems perilously close to ruling Sound Poetry (Tristram Tzara, et alia) out of the running, in the same way that some have defined Concrete Poetry as not. >>> >> Tzara, yes. Some stuff called concrete poetry, yes. If a text has >> no semantic content it is, by my definition, not a poem. If that >> text has something that gives people hearing it auditory pleasure, it >> is textual music (again, by my definition). If that text is visually >> interesting, it is what I call "textual visimagery," the second word >> in the term being my coinage for "visual art," some such coinage >> being necessary in my opinion to avoid calling the text "textual >> visual art," which would seem equall textual and visual instead of >> being predominantly visual. >> >> I don't rule Tzara "out of the running" but in a different race. Too >> many people think that calling a person not a poet is the same as >> saying his work is worthless. >> >>> >>>> the English >>>> woman with two poet brothers whose name I can't think of at >>>> the moment. >>>> >>> >>> Edith Sitwell? >> Right. >> >> --Bob >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 09:47:27 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:47:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7023FF.8080405@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > There a three questions I don't allow to be asked in my poetry > workshops--not because they are not good questions, but because they > have no answers that a poet may use to write the next poem. > > I think of my prohibition as similar to the rule, in math, that you > cannot divide by zero, because doing so immediately leads to absurd > answers, contradictions and parodoxes. > > The questions are: > 1. What is poetry? But discussing this might help some poet discover something many poems have but his doesn't that he may find a good thing to have. I think any way of discussing what poems are enlarges one's view of what one can do as a poet. Simple example: arguing with people who don't think free verse can be poetry greatly increased my awareness of the value of lineation. > 2. What makes a poem a good poem? So telling a poet what you find defective about his poem (i.e., what makes it, for you, not a good poem) won't help him with his next poem? > 3. What is the difference between poetry and prose? A question for the critic, not a poet, I agree--although really only a slightly specialized repeat of no. 1., what is poetry. > > Who wouldn't want to know the answers? We all do. But the questions > seem to lead away from the answers; the questions are not phrased > correctly, or perhaps it is that the questions are premature, not > ready to be asked or answered. You're just saying criticism is of no value to a poet. That to me is absurd. --Bob From greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com Mon Feb 8 09:50:15 2010 From: greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com (Gregg Murray) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 06:50:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@muohio.edu> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Indeed, David, And it can certainly ruin a discussion to claim authority that no one recognizes and distract attention from interesting questions by fighting side battles. For my money, I am interested in how to think about Tzara, Ball, and company precisely because of their complex relationship to "meaning." I think the notion of "defamiliarization" opens this up, because a vexed relationship to or playful tension with meaning has become so crucial to modern poetics. Gregg Murray ________________________________ From: David Weinstock To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 9:06:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" There a three questions I don't allow to be asked in my poetry workshops--not because they are not good questions, but because they have no answers that a poet may use to write the next poem. I think of my prohibition as similar to the rule, in math, that you cannot divide by zero, because doing so immediately leads to absurd answers, contradictions and parodoxes. The questions are: 1. What is poetry? 2. What makes a poem a good poem? 3. What is the difference between poetry and prose? Who wouldn't want to know the answers? We all do. But the questions seem to lead away from the answers; the questions are not phrased correctly, or perhaps it is that the questions are premature, not ready to be asked or answered. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Mon Feb 8 11:19:04 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:19:04 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Lott's Reviewing Project In-Reply-To: <4B7002F5.8040807@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-but.net> <4B7002F5.8040807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: _From Haiku to Lyriku_ is on the list! Right now I'm distracted with February's "Motley Reading" of Dubliners. Haven't started on any NewPoetry books yet, but have a pretty hefty list to work on over the year... And my project is much more sharing how each book strikes me than any kind of review, which I am pretty much unqualified to even attempt! c On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 3:26 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Has it begun yet, Chris?? I hope you'll consider > reviewing my From Haiku To Lyriku or at least > letting me know how it struck you. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 11:28:36 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:28:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net><7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@mu ohio.edu><437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B703BB4.9000908@nut-n-but.net> Gregg Murray wrote: > Indeed, David, > > And it can certainly ruin a discussion to claim authority that no one > recognizes and distract attention from interesting questions by > fighting side battles. For my money, I am interested in how to think > about Tzara, Ball, and company precisely because of their complex > relationship to "meaning." I think the notion of "defamiliarization" > opens this up, because a vexed relationship to or playful tension with > meaning has become so crucial to modern poetics. > > Gregg Murray I'd love to hear a discussion of Tzara, etc., that avoided considering what poetry is and what a good poem is, and also avoided side battles. And what's wrong with claiming authority? It may be silly for anyone to do so (although to express an opinion is rather like claiming some kind of authority as a knowledgeable person), and may be annoying, but it's also easy to ignore, and concentrate on ideas rather than who is proposing them. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com Mon Feb 8 11:38:25 2010 From: greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com (Gregg Murray) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B703BB4.9000908@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net><7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@mu ohio.edu><437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B703BB4.9000908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The ludic poetics of Tzara and Ball are interesting as ruptures of a certain landscape. The way they challenged prevailing notions of ?what is poetry? were important then, but they changed the discussion forever. They blurred the boundaries and promoted an anti-essentialism that would survive and infuse modern poetics and, eventually, criticism. I love discussing poetry, but these authoritative claims are nauseating. We've had the discussion already; that's my point. It may be that trolling is enjoyable to the troll, but it nips some of these conversations in the bud. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 11:28:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" Gregg Murray wrote: > >Indeed, David, > >>And it can certainly ruin a discussion to claim authority that no one >recognizes and distract attention from interesting questions by >fighting side battles. For my money, I am interested in how to think >about Tzara, Ball, and company precisely because of their complex >relationship to "meaning." I think the notion of "defamiliarization" >opens this up, because a vexed relationship to or playful tension with >meaning has become so crucial to modern poetics. > >>Gregg Murray > I'd love to hear a discussion of Tzara, etc., that avoided considering what poetry is and what a good poem is, and also avoided side battles. And what's wrong with claiming authority? It may be silly for anyone to do so (although to express an opinion is rather like claiming some kind of authority as a knowledgeable person), and may be annoying, but it's also easy to ignore, and concentrate on ideas rather than who is proposing them. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Feb 8 11:50:14 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:50:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B7023FF.8080405@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On 2/8/10 8:47 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: >> 3. What is the difference between poetry and prose? > A question for the critic, not a poet, I agree--although really only a > slightly specialized repeat of no. 1., what is poetry. > >> >> Who wouldn't want to know the answers? We all do. But the questions >> seem to lead away from the answers; the questions are not phrased >> correctly, or perhaps it is that the questions are premature, not >> ready to be asked or answered. > You're just saying criticism is of no value to a poet. That to me is > absurd. > > --Bob -- For me this is the problem in a nutshell. David Weinstock is, in fact, *not* saying that "criticism is of no value to a poet." He's saying something more nuanced and interesting, as well as something aimed specifically at the practicalities of pedagogy. Bob is reducing it in his usual fashion (the fallacy of bifurcation being his preferred rhetorical move) to something absurd. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Feb 8 13:11:35 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:11:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002080423j1990cff9jd7b494d97bf7ba10@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002071846l7555a98bs4fee0d2659e96444@mail.gmail.com> <4B6FFDDF.1000601@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002080422y23f6c966g8028a60201bc1ca0@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1002080423j1990cff9jd7b494d97bf7ba10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7053D7.8030401@opus40.org> WHO'S THE FUCKING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES? Jeff Newberry wrote: > Oh, hell, just ignore me. > > Clearly, I'm a nihilist. > > Posting too early, > Jeff > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Jeff Newberry > wrote: > > Why do you interpret threats to your narrow view of poetry as > "threats"? > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Bob Grumman > > wrote: > > It's something whose definition > is so much easier and satisfying > to joke about than discuss, > and be threatened by. > > --Boring Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them > parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of > particular people and experience, from which each according to his > own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. > --W.H. Auden > > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; > and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular > people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate > and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 13:43:36 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:43:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B700650.1030400@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com> <4B700650.1030400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002081043s3b511a74q5149ea3249547350@mail.gmail.com> No, Bob, I am saying that literary criticism follows a text. You first need the text in order to have a critique. On this we agree. Now you have a poem, but the poem is so new that you do not have the literary means to criticize it, nor to define it. It takes some time for the literary machine to agree on all the canonical criteria. And by the time you have those means, a new _brand new _poem appears, and once again you will have to wait for the Intellighentzia to get together and define the new trends and the aims and the sequences and the this and the that. You could infer that the poems you cannot define nor criticize are "new," or creations of a particular value. I would not really rely on this statement, since the complexity of some avant-guards ends up being only smoke in the eyes of the viewer. The process is complex, much more complex that what anybody would wish. I hope I have been clear. On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I am picking up on the statement that > > everything can be effectually definied > > yes, if you speak of potatoes. Not with art, at least not in your own time, > if of art you speak, otherwise you speak of something which might be art but > not *art in its making*, this is the particular quality of creation, as > ol' Pound would say, it should be new and by being new it has not been > defined, yet. > > Seems to me you're just saying a poem can't be defined as a poem before it > becomes a poem, Anny. But it can be effectually defined as a text with the > potential to become a poem. Or as a partially-made, or incomplete, or > unfinished poem. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 8 14:22:31 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:22:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <702953.16119.qm@web87113.mail.ird.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 8/2/10, David Weinstock wrote: > There a three questions I > don't allow to be asked in my poetry workshops--not > because they are not good questions, but because they have > no answers that a poet may use to write the next poem. I'm with David here, but I'd go on to explore just why the questions as usually couched, and as illustrated by this thread, plumb the depths of utter fatuity. Basically, it's because the discussion as conducted is so non-specific that it approaches the level of white noise. When the thread (thanks chris) turned to the Children of Dada, it began (for me, anyway) to begin to get interesting, though I rapidly realised that most of what I was learning was how little I know. (Damn, I'd meant to cite Schwitters along with Tzara in my previous post, but I couldn't recall his name at the time, which shows how limited my knowledge is in this area). Statements ought to come with a time stamp -- poetry when, where, in whose view? The Augustan idea of poetry differed more than a little from ours (so much for all eggs being "by definition" 'essentially' living creratures -- tell *that to the one I just ate hard boiled for breakfast today). And a bit of historical perspective would be nice, like for instance Aristotle was already exploring the problematics of the poetry/prose distinction in the Poetics, and pre-empting much of the debate about free verse. Philip Sidney was already discussing whether or not drama was an art form, part of "literature" (though he said 'poesie', since in the 1580s, "literature" covered a different semantic range, so when someone (OK it hasn't come up in this thread) says the Elizabethans didn't consider (Shakespeare's) plays to be art, I want to scream and bang my head against the wall with frustration. Also, I've come to a personal resolution, mostly with regard to Bob (sorry Bob) but not confined to him, that when confronted with someone making linguistic statements that demonstrate that they're unaware that the nominalist/realist debate, which had been boiling away since at least the time of Plato, came to a crashing stop with the publication of Saussure's _Course in General Linguistics_ in 1905, I'm going to sigh gently, pat them on the head, and pass by on the other side of the road. Mind you, I get even *more irritated by the entire trend of post-structuralist originally French philosophy since the early Barthes [the only two books he wrote that seem to me to contain a grain of sense, unless we allow his entire philosophical project as a discussion-and-example of the ludic, are _Elements of Semiology_ and _Writing Degree Zero_] since it manages to cock up, misconstrue, and misrepresent Saussure. The only one of that entire crowd I'd exempt from this blanket condemnation is Michel Foucault, and rather than make the case for this, I'll for once simply do the old appeal-to-authority bit here and point out that if I'm wrong, I'm wrong in the company of Noam Chomsky and Alan Sokal and both wings (US and UK) of the New Historicist movement. And while I'm on my hobby horse about partly-true statements being worse than out-and-out falsehoods, the next person who proudly tells me that humasnity is descended from the monkeys is due for a Glasgow kiss -- men and monkeys and the entire primate stock descend *from a common ancestor*, and each of us diverged from the common tree at different times. And frankly, if I were a gibbon, I'd be deeply offended to be included in a blanket classification which also encompased a silver-backed gorilla, especially since the gibbons' social structure is much more evolved, whether the evolution is genetic or cultural. As to the British Health Service being free ... when it comes to *that particular statement, whether uttered by Brits or Yanks, I'm inclined to indulge in projectile vomiting. The British Health Service is *free at the point of use*, for god's sake, and paid for out of an (almost) universal flat-rate earnmarked tax. As to Einstein having proved Newton wrong (and thus showing that all scientific hypotheses are disproved in the course of time) or that Euclid is disproved by Reimannin geometry ... Didn't your mother explain the relatively simple concept of the special case? The point I'm making is that there's a minimal level of reference and background, and some sort of recognition and agreement as to what the level is in any particular instance, which is necessary before any sort of meaningful discussion can take place. It's not that any particular level of knowledge is is sacrosanct or essential, but it helps to know where one is starting from. As I discovered only last night while trying to explain the particular significance of the year 1724 in the development of cant texts. There are lots of things I wouldn't expect an intelligent member of the general public to know (as, for instance, the implication of the different titles of a pamphlet that Charles Hitchen published in 1712, in the course of his battle with Jonathan Wild as to who would control the London underword) but I did think a reference to the song "Sam Hall" (damn your eyes) would make sense ... It wasn't that there was any reason why my interlocutor *should have come across that particular (folk)song in any of its many variants, just that I assumed she would have done, and that I could use it as a point of reference.. False assumption on my part. End of diatribe -- now to finish breakfast, and go to work on an egg. Robin From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Feb 8 14:27:31 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:27:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Crybaby Cry" In-Reply-To: <4B7053D7.8030401@opus40.org> Message-ID: Now you've hurt my feelings, Tad. . . . I need a hug! On 2/8/10 12:11 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > WHO'S THE FUCKING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING > CRYBABIES? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Feb 8 14:32:01 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:32:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Hoagland Message-ID: Another review of Tony Hoagland's new collection, also from the NYTimes, and this one a more interesting assessment to my mind. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/books/review/Brouwer-t.html Of course, two reviews in The Times: that in itself is something. Who was it said "I don't read my reviews, I measure them"? -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Feb 8 14:35:42 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:35:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Crybaby Cry" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B70678D.2030009@opus40.org> How about a toe? You can get a toe. There are ways.... David Graham wrote: > Now you've hurt my feelings, Tad. . . . I need a hug! > > > On 2/8/10 12:11 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > > >> WHO'S THE FUCKING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING >> CRYBABIES? >> > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Feb 8 15:29:51 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:29:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] More Hoagland Message-ID: <11e99.72d120a4.38a1ce3f@aol.com> This pretty much sums up what I've been thinking about Hoagland's work for years. I thought SWEET RUIN, his first book, was terrific but have found a lot of his work since then to be a bit mannered, even occasionally precious. I often love his observations but wonder why he can't find a more interesting way to say it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 15:20:01 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:20:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7071F1.8000502@nut-n-but.net> On 2/8/10 8:47 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: >> >> 3. What is the difference between poetry and prose? >> > > A question for the critic, not a poet, I agree--although really only a > > slightly specialized repeat of no. 1., what is poetry. > > > >> >> >> >> Who wouldn't want to know the answers? We all do. But the questions >> >> seem to lead away from the answers; the questions are not phrased >> >> correctly, or perhaps it is that the questions are premature, not >> >> ready to be asked or answered. >> > > You're just saying criticism is of no value to a poet. That to me is > > absurd. > > > > --Bob > -- >For me this is the problem in a nutshell. David >Weinstock is, in fact, >*not* saying that "criticism is of no value to a poet." He's forbidding a discussion in his workshop of what a good poem is. How can that not be disallowing criticism of a poem? How can one point out a possible improvement in a poem-in-progress without somehow suggesting what a good poem is? > He's saying >something more nuanced and interesting, as well as >something aimed >specifically at the practicalities of pedagogy. Bob is >reducing it in his >usual fashion (the fallacy of bifurcation being his >preferred rhetorical >move) to something absurd. He'a certified academic like you, David. Ergo, anything he says is more nuanced and interesting than anything I say. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 15:38:34 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:38:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002081043s3b511a74q5149ea3249547350@mail.gmail.com> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7595FD8A2D6C-4558-249 A6@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com><8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com><8CC7673EB59AC2F-7204-DC1A@webmail-d032.s ysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com><4B700650.1030400@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71002081043s3b511a74q5149ea3249547350@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B70764A.6020307@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > No, Bob, > > I am saying that literary criticism follows a text. You first need the > text in order to have a critique. On this we agree. > Now you have a poem, but the poem is so new that you do not have the > literary means to criticize it, nor to define it. It takes some time > for the literary machine to agree on all the canonical criteria. And > by the time you have those means, a new _brand new _poem appears, and > once again you will have to wait for the Intellighentzia to get > together and define the new trends and the aims and the sequences and > the this and the that. > You could infer that the poems you cannot define nor criticize are > "new," or creations of a particular value. I would not really rely on > this statement, since the complexity of some avant-guards ends up > being only smoke in the eyes of the viewer. The process is complex, > much more complex that what anybody would wish. > > I hope I have been clear. I think I follow you, Anny. But I disagree. I think a good critic can always be ready for the new. I guess I'd need to see an example of something new that required elaborate new critical techniques to interpret critically. Take math poetry. Zukofsky uses math symbols in a poem. This is new (let us say--I believe he was the first to do it the way he did it, but it's possible he was not); but all a critic needs to know is what the math symbols mean and translate them into verbal language. The math symbols should be part of an educated man's knowledge or, if not, something he could ask friends about, one of them sure to be able to help him. Once he knows what the symbols mean, he critiques the poem just as he would any poem, observing the connotative value of mathematicization, etc. In the Zukofsky case, no mathematical poem resulted, only a mathematical passage. Other poets went on to poems that were entirely mathematical in the sense that they were in the form of equations or the like. Same process for the critic: know what the symbols mean and then treat them as words with connotations given them by their mathematicality. No problem taxonomically, either, since my taxonomy would already recognize poems that use non-verbal matter, so would only need to open a new class for poems whose non-verbal material was mathetmatics, if the taxonomist had not already predicted the possibility of such. Sure, every once in a while a really crazy or brilliant poet will do something genuinely so unorthodox, it will temporarily befuddle all the critics, but the critic only needs to be EFFECTUALLY fully informed--understand 99.999% of poetry--not 100% fully informed, which is impossible. So he'll be able to deal effectively with almost all poems, and with a greater portion of any new poem than he can't. (I've faced poems like that, which I've said I can understand the first ten lines as saying or doing X, but am stymied by lines 11 and 12. Sometimes this is due to the poet's being off, more times it's just me, and not stymied by something new, but simply by loss of concentration or whatever, the same way a good tennis player will have stretches when he can't make shots he generally has not trouble making. I no longer know where we are in this discussion, do you? I think my bottom line remains that poetry can be effectually defined, but not perfectly defined, and that new poems may occur right at the border of the best definitions, which doesn't make those definitions valueless, or even significantly weaknes them, just proves them not 100% valid. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 15:58:10 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:58:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <702953.16119.qm@web87113.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <702953.16119.qm@web87113.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B707AE2.4000002@nut-n-but.net> ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: Aah, you're just another stuffy academic, Robin, clinging to his terminology. How do you know I don't know as much about linguistics as you do but figured it out on my own with minimal exposure to your authorities? And can't use the jargon like you can? Aside from that, you're just complaining that this discussion is an Internet discussion rather than some kind of academic affair in which each participant contributes a monograph he spend a year writing. Ergo, poop on you, my good fellow. Wait until you read my dissertation on linguistics before writing me off. There /will/ be one if I can last another two or three years. Bits of it are done. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 15:10:57 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net><7E537A95-C02A-42CD-8720-02F015A37876@mu ohio.edu><437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com><405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B703BB4.9 000908@nut-n-but.net> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> Gregg Murray wrote: > > The ludic poetics of Tzara and Ball are interesting as ruptures of a > certain landscape. The way they challenged prevailing notions of ?what > is poetry? were important then, but they changed the discussion > forever. They blurred the boundaries and promoted an anti-essentialism > that would survive and infuse modern poetics and, eventually, > criticism. I love discussing poetry, but these authoritative claims > are nauseating. > I'm afraid I don't know what "authoritative claims" you're referring to. Nor do I believe whatever rupturing Tzara and Ball did made some kind of change so permanent as to now be beyond discussion. > > We've had the discussion already; that's my point. > You're sure we all have? > It may be that trolling is enjoyable to the troll, but it nips some of > these conversations in the bud. > If I understand you, you're saying trolling is wanting to discuss something you aren't interested int? And that you don't perceive what you seem to be nipping in the bud? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 16:09:27 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:09:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> That's the first time anybody ever thought I was a certified academic. In my various day jobs, I write advertising and websites. I teach poetry on Thursdays, mostly, or whenever else I am invited. My groups' discussions are quite free in most respects, but when they veer into those three well-mapped and barren ratholes, I pull them back to the work in hand. This reduces violence, absenteeism, and personal animosity. If I want to discuss those forbidden topics, I come here instead. David W. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 16:17:05 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:17:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: What A Good Poem Is In-Reply-To: <4B70764A.6020307@nut-n-but.net> References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7656477124B2-7204-BA5B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002080422h4448de06wf360446a7a118a9f@mail.gmail.com> <4B700650.1030400@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71002081043s3b511a74q5149ea3249547350@mail.gmail.com> <4B70764A.6020307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002081317i4e7a98d1sdf8e0066cc7b3073@mail.gmail.com> I need to get to sleep. I will see if I can find anything better to add if I have some time tomorrow. Take care you all, Anny On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> No, Bob, >> >> I am saying that literary criticism follows a text. You first need the >> text in order to have a critique. On this we agree. >> Now you have a poem, but the poem is so new that you do not have the >> literary means to criticize it, nor to define it. It takes some time for the >> literary machine to agree on all the canonical criteria. And by the time you >> have those means, a new _brand new _poem appears, and once again you will >> have to wait for the Intellighentzia to get together and define the new >> trends and the aims and the sequences and the this and the that. You could >> infer that the poems you cannot define nor criticize are "new," or creations >> of a particular value. I would not really rely on this statement, since the >> complexity of some avant-guards ends up being only smoke in the eyes of the >> viewer. The process is complex, much more complex that what anybody would >> wish. >> I hope I have been clear. >> > I think I follow you, Anny. But I disagree. I think a good critic can > always be ready for the new. I guess I'd need to see an example of > something new that required elaborate new critical techniques to interpret > critically. Take math poetry. Zukofsky uses math symbols in a poem. This > is new (let us say--I believe he was the first to do it the way he did it, > but it's possible he was not); but all a critic needs to know is what the > math symbols mean and translate them into verbal language. The math symbols > should be part of an educated man's knowledge or, if not, something he could > ask friends about, one of them sure to be able to help him. Once he knows > what the symbols mean, he critiques the poem just as he would any poem, > observing the connotative value of mathematicization, etc. > In the Zukofsky case, no mathematical poem resulted, only a mathematical > passage. Other poets went on to poems that were entirely mathematical in > the sense that they were in the form of equations or the like. Same process > for the critic: know what the symbols mean and then treat them as words with > connotations given them by their mathematicality. No problem taxonomically, > either, since my taxonomy would already recognize poems that use non-verbal > matter, so would only need to open a new class for poems whose non-verbal > material was mathetmatics, if the taxonomist had not already predicted the > possibility of such. > Sure, every once in a while a really crazy or brilliant poet will do > something genuinely so unorthodox, it will temporarily befuddle all the > critics, but the critic only needs to be EFFECTUALLY fully > informed--understand 99.999% of poetry--not 100% fully informed, which is > impossible. So he'll be able to deal effectively with almost all poems, and > with a greater portion of any new poem than he can't. (I've faced poems > like that, which I've said I can understand the first ten lines as saying or > doing X, but am stymied by lines 11 and 12. Sometimes this is due to the > poet's being off, more times it's just me, and not stymied by something new, > but simply by loss of concentration or whatever, the same way a good tennis > player will have stretches when he can't make shots he generally has not > trouble making. > > I no longer know where we are in this discussion, do you? I think my > bottom line remains that poetry can be effectually defined, but not > perfectly defined, and that new poems may occur right at the border of the > best definitions, which doesn't make those definitions valueless, or even > significantly weaknes them, just proves them not 100% valid. > > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 16:23:39 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:23:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > That's the first time anybody ever thought I was a certified academic. > > In my various day jobs, I write advertising and websites. I teach > poetry on Thursdays, mostly, or whenever else I am invited. My groups' > discussions are quite free in most respects, but when they veer into > those three well-mapped and barren ratholes, I pull them back to the > work in hand. This reduces violence, absenteeism, and personal animosity. > > If I want to discuss those forbidden topics, I come here instead. > > David W. So, explain how you discuss poems without reference to what a good poem is. --Bob From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 16:26:40 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:26:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1002081326u7562d747kaa2a8b5af862c23e@mail.gmail.com> "Poetry" and "poem" are such magic-saturated words that they are hard to handle. I do feel quite confident discussing what makes a good sentence, a good love letter, a good news story, a good joke, a good song, and a number of other things that a poem can contain, or be trying to do the work of. And I didn't say I don't discuss poems without reference to what a good poem is. I discourage the question "What makes a good poem?" because the asker usually wants a recipe and I haven' t got any. If you know the recipe, I'll try it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 8 16:29:06 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:29:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I'm not an academic, either. Here's how I run a workshop on the rare occasion that I teach poetry: 1. 10 weeks on the nature of the good. 2. 10 weeks on discovering a definition of poetry that fits all the objects to which the term has been applied. 3. 10 weeks applying 1 to 2. 4. Whatever time is left to discuss what does and doesn't work in a student's efforts according to my and the other students' lights. I realize that this is very abbreviated. One could spend a lifetime just on Saint Augustine, for god''s sake (very much for his sake). But one does what one can. Bob, you're as fascinating as an elusive splinter. But no more so. Mark At 04:23 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote: >David Weinstock wrote: >>That's the first time anybody ever thought I was a certified academic. >> >>In my various day jobs, I write advertising and websites. I teach >>poetry on Thursdays, mostly, or whenever else I am invited. My >>groups' discussions are quite free in most respects, but when they >>veer into those three well-mapped and barren ratholes, I pull them >>back to the work in hand. This reduces violence, absenteeism, and >>personal animosity. >> >>If I want to discuss those forbidden topics, I come here instead. >> >>David W. >So, explain how you discuss poems without reference to what a good poem is. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Mon Feb 8 16:56:50 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:56:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good poem (one fly by attempt) Message-ID: <084001caa909$9eaf7860$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Good Poem It's all about impact Need not be universal, But better be localJ Share your experiences, ideas Emotions Stir me to contemplation, passion Action Do it any way you want to But don't lead me (further) into Self-destruction Shock me if you must But lead me, eventually, to Soul health Al Schirmacher (New member, sticking toe in water, wondering whether I'll end up with less than ten digits) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 19:10:45 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:10:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1002081326u7562d747kaa2a8b5af862c23e@mail.gmail.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c04967a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.60500@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002081326u7562d747kaa2a8b5af862c23e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B70A805.1040308@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > "Poetry" and "poem" are such magic-saturated words that they are hard > to handle. I do feel quite confident discussing what makes a good > sentence, a good love letter, a good news story, a good joke, a good > song, and a number of other things that a poem can contain, or be > trying to do the work of. > > And I didn't say I don't discuss poems without reference to what a > good poem is. I discourage the question "What makes a good poem?" > because the asker usually wants a recipe and I haven' t got any. If > you know the recipe, I'll try it. > > Okay, David, I see where I went wrong--basically that you want your students to discuss their poems, what makes them good, what makes them bad, but not discuss some abstract ideal good poem, yes? Which makes sense. I hope you find it understandable that in the context of this thread that I thought you meant more than that. I don't know how I'd handle a workshop in poetry. I've run a couple of one-day workshops but with so little time there's not much you can do but hands-on stuff. I'm sure I would focus on simple writing poems and discussing the results. But I also think I devote one session or part of a session to discussing what makes a good poem. I think it helps a poet to have a check list. I find myself often dissatisfied with a poem and I have a vague list I go through, a list of questions I ask myself about the poem, like what is it saying or doing that is special, that few or no other poems say or do. And, yes, is it coherent. Is it unified. Also is it reasonably free of cliche--of thought, expression, subject matter, imagery, what I call equaphoration. Many would have a different list. I would teach my list, but not as THE list, just as an example of the kind of list that poet might find helpful. --Bob . From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 8 19:09:00 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:09:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B707AE2.4000002@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <994462.28890.qm@web87115.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Aah, you're just another stuffy academic, Robin, > clinging to his > terminology.? Oh, I do ever so wish, Bob. If I were an orthodox fully paid up trained linguist, life would be so much easier. And at that, I didn't mention Korzybski. > How do you know I don't know as much > about linguistics as > you do You might, but gotta say it don't show. > but figured it out on my own with minimal exposure > to your > authorities? It's not that you show minimal exposure to [my] authorities, so much as you don't show any sign of exposure to *any* linguistics. Even for god's sake Plato. This isn't cutting edge stuff. >? And can't use the jargon like you can? Sunny jim, you're talking to someone who learned the jargon in order to avoid having to digest the great sobbing swathes of nonsense that pass for critical theory in some fields. Jargon, you want jargon? How about I know I'm a New Historicist because I negociate sites of conflict? Memorise that phrase, and you'll never have to actually *read Greenblatt or Monstrose or Dollimore and Sinfield. Or if you want to put New Historicism down, shake your head disapprovingly and murmur that it's simply anecdotal history. > Aside from that, you're just complaining that this > discussion is an > Internet discussion rather than some kind of academic > affair No I'm not, I'm complaining that much of it is operating on the level of bar-room converation, Outraged From Tunbridge Wells complaining that the Younger Generation don't use language properly. It's not a problem confined to the Internet, and not all Internet discussions are fatuous, or have to be conducted with academic rigour to be worth listening to or participating in.. As with the specifics in this thread, which are fine, including your own contributions. > in which > each participant contributes a monograph he spend a year > writing. Uh ... Yeah ... I think ... I recognise that you're putting me down but I'm not sure quite where or how. I mean, I never honest to god ever committed a monograph in my life. As far as I know. Other things, yes, I'm not perfect, but a pukka academic monnograph? No way. If I had, I might have got promoted at some point. Shouldn't have wasted so much time writing poetry, I suppose, when I could have een doing something useful like committing a monograph a year. > Ergo, poop on you, my good fellow.? Wait until you read my > dissertation > on linguistics before writing me off.? So show me. Doesn't even have to be published. Just direct me to where I can see you demonstrate your knowledge or expertise or insight or *something. > There will > be one if I > can last another two or three years.? Bits of it are > done. And maybe I'll turn up in Carnegy Hall starring in my own solo violin performance. I mean, I don't *know I can't play the violin, as I've never yet tried. Whatever, I look forward to reading your linguistics monograph when it's finished, or even why not post the bits you've done already on your blog and give me the heads up to go look at them? Keep on trucking, petal. Robin From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Feb 8 19:18:14 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:18:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good poem (one fly by attempt) In-Reply-To: <084001caa909$9eaf7860$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <084001caa909$9eaf7860$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002081618h6c2c17f3o758e5822ae7ed62d@mail.gmail.com> POEM FOR P AL hit the water, watch what breaks--- water or a belly ache emotions need a daisy dress ideas gulp like licorice licked stir me while I'm yogurt, honey spread me melting words fish for cracks, syllable tracks roll fat steaks sizzling whacks ain't no ill health can't be cured with soul health poems for P A Schir welcome P Al Schirmacher! Best, Judy On 8 February 2010 13:56, Pastor Al Schirmacher < pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net> wrote: > Good Poem > > > > It?s all about impact > > Need not be universal, > > But better be localJ > > > > Share your experiences, ideas > > Emotions > > > > Stir me to contemplation, passion > > Action > > > > Do it any way you want to > > But don?t lead me (further) into > > Self-destruction > > Shock me if you must > > But lead me, eventually, to > > Soul health > > Al Schirmacher > (New member, sticking toe in water, wondering whether I'll end up with less > than ten digits) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 8 19:34:40 2010 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:34:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The Anxiety off Influence re. Whitman Message-ID: <1b19f.4bc156e9.38a207a0@cs.com> Farewell, My Influence My influence lives after me, it is not bound my merest mortality. It increases and spreads with the years uncountable, it is neither flabby nor facile. With my last gasp and shiver I bid it Adieu!, will it to comrades in generations to come, to all who would give it filtration and fibrocity, all who shall bend beneath it. You there, indolent one! Have you yok'd yourself to it lately? I thought not. Have you long marked the advance of my influence, have your elders warned you of it? Have you glimpsed through the pale of years to seek it out? Have you reckoned it as it should be reckoned, have you paid your debt as it should be paid? It comes not as thief or tariff, not as totem or factotum, neither as gift nor graft. It comes not as father stealing coins in the dark from your piggy bank, neither does it come as mother constrained yet complainant and piss'd off all the same.. It comes not when you least expect it or when you most expect it, it is sneaky that way. Be not afraid, sons of the future and also daughters, you excellent handmaidens! For my influence comes with the clean, open hands of the innocent, For it shows by its clear-skinn'd manly posture that it is not threatening or pervasive, For it is natural as oakum and balsam and procreant fishes. Now with the full-throated cry of the basso, with the opulence of the soprano, With the rise of the fall and the fall of the rise, the ebb of the flow and flow of the ebb, With full moon and new moon and the waxing and waning betwixt them, With the effluent surge of the upstroke and the profluent purge of the downstroke, With all of these, I say, my influence abides, it is not bound by antitheses. And as it abides with me so I release it, it flaps like a homing pigeon, it gathers its greatness in air, it drifts from sight over the smokestacks. I send it onwards and outwards and upwards, I bid it farewell in the downdrafts. It shits on a statue near you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 19:56:17 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:56:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c0496 7a8b8@mail.gmail.com><405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B706FD1.6050 0@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com><4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm not an academic, either. Here's how I run a workshop on the rare > occasion that I teach poetry: > > 1. 10 weeks on the nature of the good. > 2. 10 weeks on discovering a definition of poetry that fits all the > objects to which the term has been applied. Nah. I'm obviously a Nazi, so it'd be ten weeks on a definition that fits all objects that the term should be applied to. > 3. 10 weeks applying 1 to 2. > 4. Whatever time is left to discuss what does and doesn't work in a > student's efforts according to my and the other students' lights. > > I realize that this is very abbreviated. One could spend a lifetime > just on Saint Augustine, for god''s sake (very much for his sake). But > one does what one can. > > Bob, you're as fascinating as an elusive splinter. But no more so. > > Mark Mark, you're as good at parodying me as David Graham is. But no more so. The problem for both of you is that you need to understand me. Neither of you is close to being able to. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 19:57:30 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:57:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Lott's Reviewing Project In-Reply-To: References: <783876.8300.qm@web45612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B6DEC6B.8000400@nut-n-b ut.net><4B7002F5.8040807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B70B2FA.9080603@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > _From Haiku to Lyriku_ is on the list! Right now I'm distracted with > February's "Motley Reading" of Dubliners. Haven't started on any > NewPoetry books yet, but have a pretty hefty list to work on over the > year... > > And my project is much more sharing how each book strikes me than any > kind of review, which I am pretty much unqualified to even attempt! > > c > You're as qualified as anyone, Chris. But any feedback would be welcome to me. I haven't gotten much of it. --Bob From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon Feb 8 19:59:14 2010 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:59:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> <4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac831002081659j49737508h893f5dcc2cb60585@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > ?The problem for both of you is that you need to understand me. ?Neither of > you is close to being able to. > > --Bob None of us are, Bob - it hurts my head to think of trying. But thank you for reposting a couple of weeks ago your kind review of my 44 Sonnets chap. From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 8 20:12:31 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:12:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002080606l2d9d630en988db9c0496 7a8b8@mail.gmail.com> <405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B706FD1.6050 0@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com> <4B7080DB.9070101@nut-n-but.net> <4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob: Among the things that none of us can expect is that anyone will ever have the time to understand anyone else (I say this as an (ex)psychotherapist). Which renders pretty moot whether one has the means to do so. >Mark, you're as good at parodying me as David Graham is. But no >more so. The problem for both of you is that you need to understand me. >Neither of you is close to being able to. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 20:27:36 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:27:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <6768ac831002081659j49737508h893f5dcc2cb60585@mail.gmail.com> References: <627747.19972.qm@web87108.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4B70084C.9080108@nut-n-but.net><405692.72418.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yaho o.com><487513.39054.qm@web110515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><437b1e3a1002081309j157efc3l847ed0defb1005f@mail.gmail.com><4B7080DB.907010 1@nut-n-but.net><4B70B2B1.2000400@nut-n-but.net> <6768ac831002081659j49737508h893f5dcc2cb60585@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B70BA08.40809@nut-n-but.net> Michael Snider wrote: > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> The problem for both of you is that you need to understand me. Neither of >> you is close to being able to. >> >> --Bob >> > > None of us are, Bob - it hurts my head to think of trying. > My head, too, when I try, but usually I succeed. > But thank you for reposting a couple of weeks ago your kind review of > my 44 Sonnets chap. > Glad to do it--since it got me to read your sonnets again, which I did with same enjoyment as before if not more. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 8 20:39:37 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:39:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "What Makes a Poem a Poem" In-Reply-To: <994462.28890.qm@web87115.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <994462.28890.qm@web87115.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B70BCD9.6000908@nut-n-but.net> You know, Robin, I actually wasn't even aware that linguistics was our subject. It's more like epistemology, isn't it? Don't answer. I don't want to get in to it. But it started as simple poetics: is there some property every good poem has? My linguistic contribution was, I guess, my belief that everything is effectually fully definable, nothing fully definable. And that Wittgenstein was a halfwit. Comes from my belief that no statement is absolutely true, but many are effectually absolutely true. Like who wrote Shakespeare. (I'm kidding--that's only true beyond reasonable doubt.) I hope to write about my linguistics, or whatever it is (how the brain processes language), in my book on Sonnet 18, which I hope to make into a full discussion of my poetics. Will see if I can find something I've written that passes for linguistics that will make any sense by itself. It's dependent on my theory of psychology which is basically a lot of simple ideas in a complicated tangle. Bedtime now. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 13:59:57 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:59:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Europeana eNews: Romantic Art, New Projects and More... In-Reply-To: <6dcadce1ac75cfafe56c7efeb332c8ec.1403149@e2ma.net> References: <6dcadce1ac75cfafe56c7efeb332c8ec.1403149@e2ma.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002091059o4c5467dk46ed897f3135395b@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Europeana eNews Date: Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 5:57 PM Subject: Europeana eNews: Romantic Art, New Projects and More... To: anny.ballardini at gmail.com If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online . [image: Forward this message to a friend] [image: Europeana - Think Culture] * Welcome to eNews February 2010* [image: BBC Microphone] BBC Microphone *<< Over 4,200 replies to our survey >> * Since the first issue of Europeana eNews in December, we?ve received over 4,200 replies to our survey on the topics you most want to read about in this newsletter. You also sent hundreds of comments and suggestions for making Europeana better. Read more about your feedback ------------------------------ [image: Viola d?amore, circa 1720. ?? Edinburgh University Collection of Historic Musical Instruments] Viola d?amore *<< Discover Love Through Art on Europeana >> * Lovers embracing. Romantic poems. Couples walking hand in hand. These are a few of the symbols associated with Valentine's Day, a festival of love celebrated for hundreds of years, and they can all be explored through the paintings, images, sounds and texts of Europe?s cultural heritage, available on Europeana Read more about love depicted in art on Europeana ------------------------------ [image: EUscreen / JUDAICA Europeana] EUscreen / JUDAICA Europeana *<< New Projects Launched: JUDAICA Europeana and EUscreen >> * The recent launch of two new projects - JUDAICA Europeana and EUscreen - will bring diverse strands of Europe's cultural heritage to Europeana. EUscreen will collect iconic moments from European television, while JUDAICA Europeana will digitise material that shows the Jewish contribution to urban Europe. Read more about JUDAICA Europeana and EUscreen ------------------------------ [image: Sally Chambers] Sally Chambers *<< Maximising Access to Digital Books Through ARROW >> * Europeana?s collection of digital books and texts will likely see more 20th century additions in future, thanks to a project called ARROW. We talk to Sally Chambers, coordinator of The European Library?s ARROW project team, about the importance of ARROW and its first planned tests in 2010. Read more about the ARROW project ------------------------------ [image: P?retar] Paretar *<< Romani Culture Featured in Digital Exhibition >> * The books, manuscripts, photographs, paintings, traditional songs and videos from the Romani people across Europe will be highlighted in an online exhibition next month, supported by Europeana and organised by The European Library. Read more about a new Romani culture exhibition ------------------------------ *Europeana - Think Culture* | *Subscribe*| *Unsubscribe*| *Contact Us* Europeana, c/o Koninklijke Bibliotheek National Library of the Netherlands, PO Box 90407 2509 LK The Hague This email was sent to *anny.ballardini at gmail.com*. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. *manage*your preferences | *opt out*using *TrueRemove*?. Got this as a forward? *Sign up*to receive our future emails. powered by [image: emma] -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 9 14:15:41 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The "What Else" of Queer Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002091059o4c5467dk46ed897f3135395b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dcadce1ac75cfafe56c7efeb332c8ec.1403149@e2ma.net> <4b65c2d71002091059o4c5467dk46ed897f3135395b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <733718.97180.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ?In queer poetry, desire blooms, and yes, I may just marry my dog? **Excerpts (for abbreviated readers) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/the-what-else-of-queer-poetry/ **The Whole Shebang -- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html Gather ye rosebuds, while ye may, Amy -- BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut -- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:45:01 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:45:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Toni_Morrison_and_The_Circuits_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?Imagination=2C=94_/?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002091145v1ca42a28wce38e9e877260fec@mail.gmail.com> *Toni Morrison and The Circuits of Imagination,? /* *?Toni Morrison et les circuits de l?imaginaire?* ** The Sixth Biennial Conference of the Toni Morrison Society November 4-7, 2010 Paris and the *banlieue*, France Universit? Paris 8 (Vincennes - Saint-Denis) * http://www.tonimorrisonsociety.org/paris.html* Conference Co-Chairs - Professors: Janis A. Mayes, Syracuse University, Andr?e- Anne Kekeh, Universit? Paris 8, Anne Wicke, Universit? de Rouen , Maryemma Graham, University of Kansas The Sixth Biennial Conference will be held in Paris and the *banlieue * (Saint-Denis), France, a geographic move that marks the first biennial held outside the U.S., in keeping with the extensive reach and import of Morrison?s oeuvre and her role as artist, editor, teacher, and intellectual. A goal of the conference is to promote the broad exchange of ideas among the larger international community of Morrison scholars, including translators, artists, publishers, teachers, students and everyday readers. This choice of Paris, its historical and cultural significance for people of the African Diaspora and its history as an expatriate destination for artists and intellectuals, encourages an examination of the reception, translations, and transformations that Morrison?s work inspires within and across borders. The city and the surrounding region, which Morrison has called ?le chez soi de l'?tranger'?(the stranger's home), serves as a point of departure for exploring the deeper meaning of circuits of imagination / Les circuits de l?imaginaire: those dynamic itineraries, movements, and agency that Morrison?s imagination engenders. She requires us to look at what occurs within the boundaries of the book as well as what extends beyond. Facing the limitations of a real world, Morrison?s imagination is key to accomplishing what she sees as her task as a writer: ?to alter language, to free it up, to open it up? so that we encounter new relationships between written, oral, and aural texts; between the physical landscapes and the interior spaces within the novels; between different ways of knowing and comprehending knowledge; between the power that is real and power that is evoked through the senses. The search for these circuitous routes into Morrison?s oeuvre is our way of opening up new conversations-- critical and aesthetic--and providing new points of departure from and re-entry into all of Morrison?s texts. The search takes us to a central question to be addressed at the conference. How does the imagination fashion new geographies of knowledge, and how do new geographies?dynamic, diasporic spaces?in turn, resonate in Morrison?s work? The Sixth Biennial will enhance participants? appreciation for Morrison?s literary and intellectual practice: her refusal to disengage with the reader, her insistence on an artistic gaze that focuses on the silenced and discredited, her need to write as if it were indeed a ?dance of an open mind.? We encourage an approach to Morrison that explores ? the face behind the face ... the words hiding behind talk,? and considers hidden energies and ?vehicles? of style, intricate paths, and the coded messages that appear in her entire corpus -- fiction, non fiction, essays, librettos, children?s books, and plays. 10-minute presentations culled from longer formal papers should focus on the newness of Toni Morrison?s work and a wide range of critical reader responses. A special international ?Language Matters? workshop will be available for teachers and other educators interested in bringing Morrison into the classroom. Topics for panels and papers include the following: ? Morrison and the Black expatriate legacy in Paris and beyond ? Morrison in translation: reception and challenges ? Reading Morrison through contemporary critical, visual and performance theories and practices ? Morrison in French literary and cultural spheres ? Nature, the natural and other worlds in Morrison ? Comparative readings and constructions of Morrison and other writers in France and the African Diasporas ? Morrison and multiple reading communities . Morrison and new geographies of knowledge Abstracts should be sent to the conference co-chairs at paris.tms at gmail.com by February 15th, 2010. You must be a member of the Toni Morrison Society to present at the conference -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 9 23:05:40 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Whole Island, Reading Message-ID: Reading from The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry, Wednesday Feb. 17th at 8, at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street, N.Y. Participants: poets and translators Chris Brandt, Lourdes Gil, M?nica de la Torre, Jason Weiss and Mark Weiss. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 9 23:52:26 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:52:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poem of the Week- Larry Levis In-Reply-To: <20100208195454.11267@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> References: <20100208195454.11267@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> Message-ID: <8CC7823F9A9A455-5354-2B6B@webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: PoemoftheWeek at poemoftheweek.org To: andrewmcfadyenketchum at poemoftheweek.org Sent: Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54 pm Subject: Poem of the Week- Larry Levis Dear PoemoftheWeek Subscriber, I?ve just posted this week?s feature, ?The Poem Returning as an Invisible Wren to the World,? from Larry Levis? posthumous book Elegy, on PoemoftheWeek.org. I?m excited by this feature because in many, many previous readings of Elegy I somehow failed to take notice of this particular poem? embarrassing, true, but well worth the embarrassment if I can share it with all of you. To view this poem, Mr. Levis? bio, and brief reviews of Elegy, just click on the link PoemoftheWeek.org. I also hope you?ll peruse the newly designed website and will post your thoughts on ?The Poem Returning as an Invisible Wren to the World? while you?re there. My best, Andrew McFadyen-Ketchum, Founder & Editor Contact us at AndrewMcFadyenKetchum at PoemoftheWeek.org Donate to PoemoftheWeek.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 10 00:13:44 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:13:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [wallace_stevens] Stevens Conference at NYU's Gallatin School, March 4 - 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC7826F3AB6EF5-5354-2E15@webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> ----Original Message----- To: wallace_stevens list Sent: Mon, Feb 8, 2010 4:17 pm Subject: [wallace_stevens] Stevens Conference at NYU's Gallatin School, March 4 - 6 I might have missed several posts in which it had been mentioned---so please forgive if I am preaching to the choir---but from March 4th through 6th there will be a major Stevens conference held here in New York at New York University's Gallatin School: Wallace Stevens, New York, and Modernism. Such List luminaries as Bart Eeckhout, Edward Raag, Glen MacLeod, and Angus Cleghorn will be among the 20 or more academics and poets giving presentations, talks, and poetry readings. Poets Mark Strand, Eamon Grennan, and Edward Hirsch will be among those giving readings. The conference should prove fascinating---and it is all the more noteworthy in that it is being presented "In Honor of John N. Serio," our own stalwart editor of the Wallace Stevens Journal. Yet another event that our good friend and List colleague, Bill Ford, would surely have attended and at which he will be as surely missed. The complete conference agenda, as well as registration for updates and other notices, can be found at: http://www.nyu.edu/gallatin/news/2009/11/stevens.html Hope to see some of you there! (If Edward Raag can journey across half the planet to attend---he's presenting "Bourgeois Abstraction: Poetry, Painting, Astronomy, and the Allure of New York in Late Stevens" in Session I on Friday morning, March 5th---there's no excuse for those of us from less exotic locales to miss the event. . . .) Best, ~ Russ ~ --------------------------------- ou are currently subscribed to wallace_stevens as: JforJames at aol.com o unsubscribe send a blank email to: leave-811731-757762.e82aa81223029f7553ac31c5fad8896b at lyris.wesleyan.edu ist archive: http://lyris.wesleyan.edu/read/?forum=wallace_stevens he Academy of American Poets: http://www.poets.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 09:49:47 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:49:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poem of the Week- Larry Levis In-Reply-To: <8CC7823F9A9A455-5354-2B6B@webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> References: <20100208195454.11267@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> <8CC7823F9A9A455-5354-2B6B@webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002100649r4b7798e3k39f3c019b3d93b2c@mail.gmail.com> Thanks! You have to love these moves: "This is not about how she threw herself into the river, For she didn't, nor is it about the way her breasts Looked in moonlight, nor about moonlight at all. This is about the surviving curve of the bridge Where she listened to the river whispering to her, When the wren flew off & left her there, With the knowledge of it singing in her blood." - Jim On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:52 PM, wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: PoemoftheWeek at poemoftheweek.org < > andrewmcfadyenketchum at poemoftheweek.org> > To: andrewmcfadyenketchum at poemoftheweek.org > Sent: Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54 pm > Subject: Poem of the Week- Larry Levis > > Dear *PoemoftheWeek* Subscriber, > > I?ve just posted this week?s feature, ?The Poem Returning as an Invisible > Wren to the World,? from Larry Levis? posthumous book *Elegy > ,* on PoemoftheWeek.org *. * > > I?m excited by this feature because in many, many previous readings of * > Elegy > * I somehow failed to take notice of* *this particular poem? embarrassing, > true, but well worth the embarrassment if I can share it with all of you. > > To view this poem, Mr. Levis? bio, and brief reviews of *Elegy, > *just click on the link PoemoftheWeek.org . > I also hope you?ll peruse the newly designed website and will post your > thoughts on ?The Poem Returning as an Invisible Wren to the World? while > you?re there. > > My best, > > Andrew McFadyen-Ketchum, Founder & Editor > > Contact us at AndrewMcFadyenKetchum at PoemoftheWeek.org > > Donate to PoemoftheWeek.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Feb 10 09:51:08 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:51:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poem of the Week- Larry Levis Message-ID: <32de.54192de0.38a421dc@aol.com> Have to admit I've overlooked this poem as well. And I've read Elegy endlessly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 10 19:01:51 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:01:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 92nd Street Y's FREE Virtual Poetry Center In-Reply-To: <150094.13690.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4B705A55.60002@hfa.umass.edu> <150094.13690.qm@web59905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC78C48C029442-6B8-2D40@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Date: February 8, 2010 1:39:17 PM EST Subject: [Allmfaaalum] 92nd Street Y's FREE Virtual Poetry Center As a member of the 92nd Street Y network, we wanted to share with you exciting news: The 92nd Street Y?s Unterberg Poetry Center has officially launched its new *Virtual Poetry Center*?. *The Virtual Poetry Center*? is a FREE resource created exclusively for university professors and students to enhance the overall classroom experience through webcasts of recent Poetry Center events and readings with such acclaimed authors as *Jamaica Kincaid, A.S. Byatt, Paul Auster, Orhan Pamuk* and *Suzan-Lori Parks*, as well as highlights from an extraordinary archive featuring the best writers of the last 75 years. These webcasts and recordings will be a unique supplement to in-classroom and independent studies of classic and contemporary literature. Below is the log-in information for the site. Please feel free to share the password with your students and colleagues. New content is being added every week. *92nd Street Y?s Virtual Poetry Center*?** Website: www.92y.org/LiteraryWebcasts Password: 92ypoetry** ****** ** ** **Please let me know if you have any questions or comments.** / / /Best,/ /Jessica/ ** ** /All programs are subject to change./ / / /92Y Unterberg Poetry Center webcasts and access to our archive are made possible in part by the generous support of the Sidney E. Frank Foundation./ **Jessica Schneider** **Director of Programming and Outreach for New Media ** **Milstein/Rosenthal Center for Media & Technology** **92nd Street****** **Y****** **1395 Lexington Avenue****** **New York****, NY** ** 10128** **(212) 415-5674** **Fax (212) 415-5750** jschneider at 92y.org **www.92y.org/live** ; -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 10 19:33:20 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:33:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ML Liebler awarded Writers for Writers Award Message-ID: <8CC78C8F25C4CB0-6B8-365E@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Detroit-born poet/professor wins national literary award Susan Whitall / The Detroit News Detroit-born poet/professor M.L. Liebler, who for decades has helped support and promote other Detroit writers and poets, has been honored for his selfless spirit with a prestigious national award, the 2010 Barnes & Noble Writers for Writers Award. The award is bestowed by the literary magazine Poets and Writers to honor "authors who have given generously to other writers or to the broader literary community." Liebler has been an English professor at Wayne State University since >From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100210/ENT05/2100421/1422/ENT05/Detroit-poet/professor-wins-national-literary-award#ixzz0fBOgJsif -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 14:13:23 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:13:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery in Paris Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002111113l3556370dmf7480e6a136cc4ae@mail.gmail.com> JOHN ASHBERY IN PARIS INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE March 11-13 2010 Institut Charles V ? Universit? Paris Diderot 10, rue Charles V ? Paris 4? - M?tro Saint Paul/Bastille/Sully-Morland Organized by: LARCA - Laboratoire de Recherche sur les Cultures Anglophones (EA4214) - Universit? Paris 7 Diderot IMAGER - Institut des Mondes Anglophone, Germanique et Roman (EA3958) - Universit? Paris Est With the support of: Ambassade des Etats-Unis New York University / New York University in Paris For registration, please contact: Antoine Caz? - antcaze at wanadoo.fr Check our Conference Website : http://johnashberyinparis.blogspot.com/ CONFERENCE PROGRAM Thursday March 11 2010 : 11h-12h30 ? Registration 13h30 ? Room A50 ? Opening Addresses 14h00-18h00 ? Workshop Session I Workshop #1 : Paris & France ? Room A50 Clark LUNBERRY, University of North Florida ? ??Professional Exiles Like Me?: John Ashbery?s Self-Imposed Paris and the Pursuit of Poetic Abstraction? Paul GRIMSTAD, Yale University ? ?Poe, Roussel, Ashbery? Maria MURESAN, ?cole Normale Sup?rieure, Paris ? ?from surrealism to the experience of experience Ashbery?s long poem? Eugene RICHIE, Pace University, NY, & Rosanne WASSERMAN, U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, Kings Point ? ?John Ashbery?s Translations from the French: An Introduction to Selected Translations? Sarah RIGGS, Paris ? ?Ashbery in a Convex Mirror: Paris & Translation? Workshop #2 : Modes & Forms ? Room C31 Michael FARRELL, University of Melbourne ? ?Pastiche and the Commodity of Tone: Reading and Writing to Ashbery?s Where Shall I Wander.? Jacek GUTOROW, University of Opole ? ?Difficult Idylls: John Ashbery and the Postmodern Rhetoric of the Pastoral? Stephen ROSS, Oxford University ? ?The Delta of Living into Everything: The River Topos in Ashbery?s Poetry? Bob, PERELMAN, University of Pennsylvania ? ?Bathos and Mind-Reading? 18h30-19h30 ? Drinks & Visit of the Ashbery Exhibition ? Room A50 20h30 ? Banquet (on invitation) at ?Le Vin des Pyr?n?es?, 25 rue Beautreillis, 4th Arrondissement Friday, March 12, 2010 : 9h00 ? Room A50 ? Plenary Lecture by Marjorie PERLOFF, Professor Emerita, Stanford University : ? ?Sowing the seeds crooked in the furrow?: John Ashbery and les jeunes? 10h30-12h30 ? Workshop Session II Workshop #3 : The Arts 1 ? Room A50 Jennifer C. COOK, Bentley University ? ?Seeing Through the Lens of Prose: Reconsidering Ashbery?s Reported Sightings? Elisabeth JOYCE, Edinboro University of Pennsylvania ? ?Fairfield Porter and John Ashbery: Ideas of Order? Julie VERLAINE, Universit? de Caen / Universit? Paris I ? ?John Ashbery, a Fl?neur in the Art Galleries. Among artists, critics ands dealers, Paris, 1955-1965? Workshop #4: The Arts 2 ? Room A21 Aaron BELZ, Providence Christian College ? ?John Ashbery and Jacques Tati? Daniel KANE, University of Sussex ? ?The New Realism: How Ashbery Sees Surrealist and ?New American? Film? Cl?ment OUDART, Universit? Paris 6 ? ?Poetics of Music: John Ashbery and Elliott Carter Working at the Boundaries? 12h45-14h15 ? Lunch 14h30-17h00 ? Workshop Session III Workshop #5 : Historicizing Ashbery ? Room A50 Joshua CLOVER, University of California, Davis ? ?After Lateness: Ashbery and World-System Theory? Will MONTGOMERY, Royal Holloway College, University of London ? ? ?Udder mumps? and an other tradition: Ashbery?s Vermont Notebook? Nandini RAMESH SANKAR, Cornell University ? ? ?The/Lamentable Spectacle of the Unknown?: Historicizing Difficulty in the Poetry of John Ashbery? Barrett WATTEN, Wayne State University ? ?Ashbery?s Historicism: Regions of Modernity in The Double Dream of Spring? Workshop #6: Readings ? Room A44 David HERD, Kent University ? ? ?That We Must?: The Ashbery Collective? V. Nicholas LOLORDO, University of Nevada-Las Vegas ? ? ?A Job in the Monument Industry?: Reading Late Ashbery? Ernesto SU?REZ-TOSTE, Universidad de Castilla-La Mancha ? ?Painting the Sea with Salt Water: John Ashbery, Ahead of the Avant-gardes? John TRANTER, Editor of Jacket Magazine ? ?The Anaglyph? 18h-19h30 ? Dialogue Session with John Ashbery ? NYU in Paris / NYU ? 56, rue de Passy, 16th Arrondissement (Metro Station: La Muette, line 9, or Passy, line 6) Dinner Saturday, March 13, 2010 : 9h00 ? Room A50 ? Plenary Lecture by Michael DAVIDSON, Professor at the University of California at San Diego : ?The Pleasures of Merely Circulating: John Ashbery and the Jargon of Inauthenticity.? 10h30-13h ? Workshop Session IV Workshop #7 : The Arts 3 ? Room A42 Pawe? MARCINKIEWICZ, University of Opole ? ?John Ashbery's Poetry in the Context of the Twentieth-Century Visual Arts? Ellen LEVY, Vanderbilt University ? ?Facing Pages: The Vermont Notebook? Karin ROFFMAN, United States Military Academy at West Point ? ? ?The Things That Mattered?: John Ashbery?s Childhood Collections? Workshop #8 : Poetry/Theory ? Room A50 S?ren Hattesen BALLE, Aalborg University ? ?Cosmopolitan Erotics in John Ashbery?s The Tennis-Court Oath Brian GLAVEY, University of South Carolina ? ?The Sissy Arts: John Ashbery?s Wallflower Avant-Garde? Kacper BARCZAK, University of Lodz ? ?Pragmatist poetics in the recent poetry of John Ashbery? Terence DIGGORY, Skidmore College ? ?Ashbery?s Three Poems and the Conceptual Moment? 13h15-14h30 ? Lunch 15h-16h30 ? Poetry Reading ? Room A50 -- Antoine Caz? ? Professeur des Universit?s UFR d?Etudes Anglophones 10, rue Charles V ? 75004 Paris 01 57 27 58 20 ? antcaze at wanadoo.fr -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 11 18:51:18 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:51:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete poetry of Eliza R. Snow Message-ID: <8CC798C3D98662B-4E6C-1A24@webmail-m009.sysops.aol.com> http://mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/church_history/?id=13283 She wanted to be "useful" and "unknown," but also not to be "forgotten quite." Eliza R. Snow was versatile, inconsistent poetess Complete poetry of Eliza R. Snow published Eliza R. Snow's first printed words were an introduction to a poem in August 1825: "It is not my wish to appear in print." Yet she did appear in print, and now more than ever with the publishing of "Eliza R. Snow: The Complete Poetry," edited by Jill Mulvay Derr and Karen Lynn Davidson. The book is 1,383 pages long and contains 507 poems. But, it was almost only 71 pages long with only 43 poems -- or would have been if not for the Prophet Joseph Smith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 12 12:36:38 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:36:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin commemoration Message-ID: <8CC7A2110CB6D7A-53E8-F2CC@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/humberside/hi/people_and_places/arts_and_culture/newsid_8510000/8510752.stm Philip Larkin spent much of his career as head librarian at the University of Hull. He lived nearby in Newland Park and is buried in Cottingham Cemetery. He was hailed as one of the 20th century's major writers. His collections of poetry were popular with public and critics alike. Now a series of events are planned to mark the 25th anniversary of his death. Plans include an interactive poetry trail and a statue of Larking at Hull's Paragon Station. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 12 12:45:01 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:45:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brazil's Luciana Souza looks to poets for inspiration Message-ID: <8CC7A223CACC69A-53E8-F517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> http://www.isthmus.com/isthmus/article.php?article=28166 Born shortly after the mid-century bossa nova craze to two artists ? her father was a musician and composer, her mother a poet ? she had the groundwork well laid for her career. Her 2009 album Tide, the latest of her recordings to garner a Grammy nomination, is quietly, rhythmically intense, and the tracks include two songs inspired by e.e. cummings poems. It's not the first time Souza has found a muse in verse. She did a 2000 album based on poet Elizabeth Bishop's works, and Neruda, from 2004, used the Chilean Nobel laureate's poems as its basis. "I wouldn't say my mother consciously had anything to do with it, but I think being in her presence ? she was always reading poetry or talking about poetry," Souza says. "It's easier now for me to see where the influence was. You look back and you go, 'Oh, that was what my childhood was about!'" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 13 11:31:02 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:31:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pop Psychology Thoughts In-Reply-To: <8CC798C3D98662B-4E6C-1A24@webmail-m009.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC798C3D98662B-4E6C-1A24@webmail-m009.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B76D3C6.7030102@nut-n-but.net> While puttering my way into an essay I want to write about what causes Shakespeare-Denial and thinking about Shakespeare-Deniers worship of aristocrats and the educated, I came up with the following at my blog, and was curious what others thought of it:: *A Taxonomy of Elitism* aristophile: an elitist who holds that aristocrats (or the equivalent, such as the later generations of the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts in the USA) are superior to everyone else to the degree that they are high in social status, with those whose status is highest being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. celebriphile: an elitist who holds that the people the front pages of newspapers deal with are superior to everyone else, with those most discussed and photographed being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. politiphile: an elitist who holds that office-holding politicians and those appointed to positions by politicians are superior to everyone else to the degree that they have power, with those having most political power being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. culturaphile: an elitist who holds persons he considers to be of high achievement in the arts and sciences are superior to everyone else to the degree that their accomplishments are great, with those whose achievements are the greates being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. eduphile: an elitist who holds that the formally-educated (but certified schools and/or professional tutor are superior to everyone else to the degree that they are formally-educated, with those most formally-educated academics being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. plutophile: an elitist who holds that wealthy people are superior to everyone else to the degree that they are wealthy, with the wealthiest being at least an order of magnitude more important than everyone else. ethophile: an elitist who holds that those he considers morally upright are superior to everyone else to the degree that they are morally upright, with those closest, in his view, to sainthood, being at least ten orders of magnitude more important than everyone else. * * * This connects a little to poetry-engagents inasmuch as a politiphile will want poems with Important Content, a culturaphile (like me) will prefer mere art. Actually, it'd be an aesthetiphile, whos is in a sub-class of the culturaphile category, who would prefer the art to politics ratio of poetry to be high (in my case, 1000 to 1). And I suppose celebriphiles prefer poetry by celebrities, which might include celebrity poetes like Rita Dove. Oh, and ethophiles--I know one--rate poems on the basis of how holy their creators are. Pound's poetry can't be any good because he had strong fascist leanings, for instance. I don't think being an aristophile means much nowadays but Shakespeare-deniers oare often aristophiles who believe only an aristocrat could have written poetry as good as the Bard's. They are generally eduphiles, too, in that they believe one must be highly /formally/ educated to write well. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 13 11:36:48 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:36:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Spans Two Worlds, but Has a Home in Neither Message-ID: <8CC7AE1DEFFDF1E-239C-D738@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/nyregion/13poet.html His poems, in countless anthologies and five of his own collections, are considered part of the Latino literary canon. His plays and lectures have earned him honors etched in flowery superlatives on plaques. But Tato Laviera would rather possess a more prosaic document, written in legalese. A lease. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 13 15:22:31 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Haki Madhubuti profile Message-ID: <8CC7B01679D012E-239C-FBC9@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/2045791,CST-NWS-haki13.article Poet published black authors no one else would February 13, 2010 BY MAUDLYNE IHEJIRIKA Staff Reporter He still wears an afro, though it's tamed now, and a bit thinning. He's the militant poet born Don Lee who later took the Swahili name Haki Madhubuti. He founded Chicago's internationally renowned Third World Press, distributing black authors who were deemed untouchable by the mainstream in the early '60s. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 13 15:30:43 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:30:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] effect of love poetry Message-ID: <8CC7B028CE823B6-239C-FD1A@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/feb/13/valentines-love-poetry-hot-blood Steamy love poems are always popular around Valentine's Day, but can a few lines of tender verse really make people hot under the collar? Researchers at Aberystwyth University attempted to find out earlier this week, using thermal imaging cameras to take the temperature of volunteers reading the work of Romantic poets -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 15:38:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:38:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] effect of love poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC7B028CE823B6-239C-FD1A@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7B028CE823B6-239C-FD1A@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002131238j4d52abch1db69e34bab1a664@mail.gmail.com> well, it depends on who recites them to whom On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 9:30 PM, wrote: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/feb/13/valentines-love-poetry-hot-blood > > Steamy love poems are always popular around Valentine's Day, but can a few > lines of tender verse really make people hot under the collar? Researchers > at Aberystwyth University attempted to find out earlier this week, using > thermal imaging cameras to take the temperature of volunteers reading the > work of Romantic poets > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 16:05:52 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:05:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] top senders Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002131305h72b8ef10y82c0500a36dab0ae@mail.gmail.com> >From Boxbe I receive the following information: Top Senders Contacts that sent you the most email this week. Pfizer VIAGRA (c) Direct-Trade ... Mr James Traore Euro-Millions Lottery ... I canceled out with an ellipsis the name of two friends. What a disaster, to keep on canceling out Viagra and lotteries... when will they be fed up of being deleted? -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 16:26:59 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:26:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Mittenthal, Notley, Vassilakis, Bernstein, and more: BOOKS! In-Reply-To: <9C747501-F92F-4452-8C64-FDE548384DD5@theriver.com> References: <9C747501-F92F-4452-8C64-FDE548384DD5@theriver.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002131326s19bae7c5hd8d306b4f3edffcb@mail.gmail.com> Please do, Charles Alexander deserves it: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:20 PM Subject: Mittenthal, Notley, Vassilakis, Bernstein, and more: BOOKS! To: Charles Alexander Dear Friends of Authors, Dear Readers: The following books and chapbooks will be coming out this spring, 2010: *Robert Mittenthal,* Wax World *Barbara Henning, Cities and Memory* *Alice Notley,* Reason and Other Women *Nico Vassilakis,* Diesel Hand *Charles Bernstein,* Umbra *Anne Waldman,* Matriot Acts *Tenney Nathanson,* Ghost Snow Falling in the Void (Globalization) and you can help. Chax Press is supported by government grants, book sale revenue, private foundation grants, and donations from individuals. The largest and most important of these amounts: donations from individuals. We could not publish books without help from people like you. Please choose to specifically support one (or more) of these books through a targeted donation. To do so, please visit the book sponsorship page on the Chax Press web site at *http://chax.org/sponsorship.htm* * * You may choose to support the full costs of a book, or various partial costs, or simply to give in any amount you choose. *NO DONATION IS TOO SMALL!* In addition, on this page you will also find opportunities to support books by Robert Mittenthal, Nico Vassilakis, and Will Alexander. We will also soon be adding more opportunities to lend your important support to other books by Leslie Scalapino, Jonathan Stalling, Andrew Levy, Joe Amato, Alan Loney, Standard Schaeffer, Mark Weiss, and more. Thank you for choosing to support a book by one of your favorite authors; thank you for supporting Chax Press. Chax Press is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) charitable organization, and your contributions are tax deductible. *AND SOMETHING NEW! SUBSCRIBE TO CHAX PRESS BOOKS! SAVE!* We have one more new program at Chax Press, for purchasing our books! Our first-ever subscription offer! Great savings over individual book purchases! For information on obtaining tbooks by subscription, either a set of the first five to come out, or to treat yourself or someone with a larger subscription to more Chax Press books, and to be among the first readers to receive our books, please visit our new subscription page at our web site at *http://chax.org/subscribe.htm* charles alexander chax at theriver.com chax press / poetry & the book arts 411 n seventh ave ste 103 / tucson, az 85705-8388 presenting Ron Silliman & Marilyn Crispell on Jan 30 2010 Andrew Joron, Michael Palmer, & Andrew Zawicki on March 7 2010 DONATE TO CHAX PRESS at http://chax.org/donate.htm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 13 20:23:58 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:23:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] effect of love poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC7B028CE823B6-239C-FD1A@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7B028CE823B6-239C-FD1A@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: They should have tried the earl of Rochester. Someday soon poems will be included in packages of viagra and poets can cash in. At 03:30 PM 2/13/2010, you wrote: >http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/feb/13/valentines-love-poetry-hot-blood > >Steamy love poems are always popular around Valentine's Day, but can >a few lines of tender verse really make people hot under the collar? >Researchers at Aberystwyth University attempted to find out earlier >this week, using thermal imaging cameras to take the temperature of >volunteers reading the work of Romantic poets >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 14 00:03:21 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:03:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Lucille Clifton Message-ID: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100214/ap_on_en_ot/us_obit_clifton ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Feb 14 00:23:57 2010 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 00:23:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Lucille Clifton Message-ID: <148b8.c9450d3.38a8e2ed@cs.com> Sad to hear. One of my favorites. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Feb 14 00:34:41 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 00:34:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Lucille Clifton In-Reply-To: <148b8.c9450d3.38a8e2ed@cs.com> References: <148b8.c9450d3.38a8e2ed@cs.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002132134q2aa2b17fibd5a31131f4a888d@mail.gmail.com> Yes, indeed. Wonderful poet. Judy On 14 February 2010 00:23, wrote: > Sad to hear. One of my favorites. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 14 11:50:15 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:50:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Lucille Clifton; one of her poems In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002132134q2aa2b17fibd5a31131f4a888d@mail.gmail.com> References: <148b8.c9450d3.38a8e2ed@cs.com> <7db1d01b1002132134q2aa2b17fibd5a31131f4a888d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC7BACEABD5E3B-757C-AB06@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> here yet be dragons so many languages have fallen off the edge of the world into the dragon?s mouth. some where there be monsters whose teeth are sharp and sparkle with lost people. lost poems. who among us can imagine ourselves unimagined? who among us can speak with so fragile tongue and remain proud? ?Lucille Clifton Blessing the Boats, New and Selected Poems 1988-2000 (Boa Editions, 2000) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 14 18:51:02 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:51:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [wallace_stevens] New Play based on Life and Work of Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC7BE7B340E46A-757C-F2E4@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: David Smith To: wallace_stevens list wallace_stevens at lyris.wesleyan.edu Dear List Members: For the past several years I have been developing a full-length play based on the life and work of Wallace Stevens called MAN WITH BLUE GUITAR. Following a successful two-week professional workshop in August, my agent and I are now seeking a full production and feel that a college or university setting might be an appropriate venue for the piece. If any of you can be helpful in bringing about such a production, we would be most grateful. The play is structured in two acts. The first act is set in Key West in 1936, with flashbacks to Stevens' earlier life. The second act is set in the Hartford Canoe Club near the end of Stevens' life, with flashbacks to earlier events, and then moves to his deathbed. I have negotiated permission from Random House to use poems and other copyrighted material. I can be contacted at davidsmith2552 at yahoo.com or via my agent Susan Schulman at schulman at aol.com. I will also be attending the Stevens conference at NYU March 4-6 in case any of you want to meet in person. Many thanks for any ideas or assistance you can give. David Smith David F. Smith Cell: 727-409-4099 DAVID F. SMITH 7607 Broomsedge Court Lakewood Ranch, FL 34202 E-mail: davidsmith2552 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- ou are currently subscribed to wallace_stevens as: JforJames at aol.com o unsubscribe send a blank email to: leave-814137-757762.e82aa81223029f7553ac31c5fad8896b at lyris.wesleyan.edu ist archive: http://lyris.wesleyan.edu/read/?forum=wallace_stevens he Academy of American Poets: http://www.poets.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 23:19:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:19:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] nine Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002142019k4e75ed61ka4a2521b6bbd1cc1@mail.gmail.com> by Anne Tardos http://www.conjunctions.com/webconj.htm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 09:00:15 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:00:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot Message-ID: <731bb17a1002150600h575faa5k52a23be50101db79@mail.gmail.com> I have a poem in the new *Hobble Creek Review*: http://www.hobblecreekreview.net/issue10/jeff_newberry.html Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Feb 15 09:25:29 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:25:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002150600h575faa5k52a23be50101db79@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a1002150600h575faa5k52a23be50101db79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002150625p16834d3bp47d3d965f723987@mail.gmail.com> "(He) leaves coffee drops on the kitchen table" "...the ever-stinking mill" Nice, Jeff. My mom's mom at the paper mill, too, a stinking Muskegon, Michigan, my birthplace, now, they tell me, a lovely resort town. Best, Judy On 15 February 2010 09:00, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I have a poem in the new *Hobble Creek Review*: > > http://www.hobblecreekreview.net/issue10/jeff_newberry.html > > > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 15 09:27:59 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:27:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Lynch profile Message-ID: <8CC7C623538422E-4BBC-1F911@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> http://www.freep.com/article/20100214/FEATURES05/2140307/1322/Lynch-explores-the-human-condition Sex and death, the Irish poet Yeats said, are the only things that can interest a serious mind. And Thomas Lynch has a serious mind. The proprietor of Lynch & Sons Funeral Home in Milford since 1974, Lynch is likely the most recognized undertaker in the English-speaking world thanks to his part-time job as an internationally renowned writer and poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 09:52:49 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:52:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What Poetry Is Message-ID: <731bb17a1002150652q762277c9td8f9ac66f82ad343@mail.gmail.com> Poetry is knowledge, salvation, power, abandonment. An operation capable of changing the world, poetic activity is revolution by nature; a spiritual exercise, it is a means of interior liberation. Poetry reveals this world; it creates another. Bread of the chosen; accursed food. It isolates; it unites. Invitation to the journey; return to the homeland. Inspiration, respiration, muscular exercise. Prayer to the void, dialogue with absence; tedium, anguish, and despair nourish it. Prayer, litany, epiphany, presence. Exorcism, conjuration, magic. Sublimation, compensation, condensation of the unconscious. Historic expression of races, nations, classes. It denies history: at its core all objective conflicts are resolved and man at last acquires consciousness of being something more than a transient. Experience, feeling, emotion, intuition, undirected thought. Result of chance; fruit of calculation. Art of speaking in a superior way; primitive language. Obedience to the rules; creation of others. Imitation of the ancients, copy of the real, copy of a copy of the Idea. Madness, ecstasy, logos. Return to childhood, coitus, nostalgia for paradise, for hell, for limbo. Play, work, ascetic activity. Confession. Innate experience. Vision, music, symbol. --Octavio Paz, *The Bow and the Lyre* Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Feb 15 10:10:02 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:10:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot Message-ID: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 15 14:35:06 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:35:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Third way Message-ID: <8CC7C8D1CB8482D-6D68-3792@webmail-d066.sysops.aol.com> Saw this announcement and noticed that the drafter has solved the great 'open mic v. open mike' debate by introducing another variant... Wednesday Night Poetry Series, March 10th, Blue Z Coffeehouse, Route 25, (127 South Main Street) Newtown, CT, 7:30 Open Myk, 8:30 Featured Reading. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Feb 15 15:32:54 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:32:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Open Mike" In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002150652q762277c9td8f9ac66f82ad343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <92022783F5334D79AE2B2A5C7830EA76@win.louisiana.edu> As Christian Bok said, the scariest two words in the English language. But isn't it just a matter of time until someone changes his or her name to "Open Mike"? Imagine the audience of hopeful young poets at "Open Mike Night"! I don't believe any of this, of course. I usually attend to open mike readers closely and often talk to them afterwards. Met some pretty amazing people who became poet-friends this way. Lots of drivel, of course, but most of it trying and wide-eyed. Does anyone have any interesting open mike stories?? The one that comes to my mind is of a young man who passed out at the mike after straightening his papers out and pausing, never having uttered a word, not even his name. (To his credit, after we picked him up, sat him down and got him water, he listened respectfully to the other open mike readers, got up at the end and read his work.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 16:10:33 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:10:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Open Mike" In-Reply-To: <92022783F5334D79AE2B2A5C7830EA76@win.louisiana.edu> References: <731bb17a1002150652q762277c9td8f9ac66f82ad343@mail.gmail.com> <92022783F5334D79AE2B2A5C7830EA76@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002151310x655f0b96pb723bf881a733a3f@mail.gmail.com> Skip, I actually enjoy attending open mic nights. To me, they're evidence that poetry is a living, breathing thing. Is much of the work quality? No, not really, any more than much of the music one hears at an open jam session is quality. Still, I like open mics, and if one's in my area, I usually try to attend. Editor of Anti- and author of Torched Verse Ends Steven D. Schroeder has developed a tongue-in-cheek "Poetry Reading Drinking Game," (see http://www.steveschroeder.info/2006/01/poetry-reading-drinking-game.html) which, while not explicitly related to open mics, makes me want to develop an "Open Mic Night" Bingo card. What would be in the center? Probably "And our next reader is . . . " What might some other squares on the Open Mic Night Bingo Card be? Jeff Newberry On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > As Christian Bok said, the scariest two words in the English language. > But isn?t it just a matter of time until someone changes his or her name to > ?Open Mike?? Imagine the audience of hopeful young poets at ?Open Mike > Night?! > > > > I don?t believe any of this, of course. I usually attend to open mike > readers closely and often talk to them afterwards. Met some pretty amazing > people who became poet-friends this way. Lots of drivel, of course, but most > of it trying and wide-eyed. > > > > Does anyone have any interesting open mike stories?? The one that comes to > my mind is of a young man who passed out at the mike after straightening his > papers out and pausing, never having uttered a word, not even his name. (To > his credit, after we picked him up, sat him down and got him water, he > listened respectfully to the other open mike readers, got up at the end and > read his work.) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Feb 15 17:45:00 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:45:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Al, I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! Best, Judy On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: > And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 16 11:44:28 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Two Weeks Left to Pre-Register for AWP 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC7D3E70867F56-43B4-DD35@webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: AWP Conference Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02 pm Subject: Two Weeks Left to Pre-Register for AWP 2010 Dear Friend, IF YOU HAVE ALREADY REGISTERED AND RECEIVED A REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION FOR THE 2010 CONFERENCE IN DENVER, PLEASE DISREGARD THIS EMAIL. This is just a reminder that there are only two weeks left to pre-register for the conference. If you have not already done so, we encourage you to register before Sunday, February 28, 2010 to take advantage of the discounted pre-conference registration rates. No pre-conference registrations will be accepted after February 28, 2010. For more information please visit our secure online registration site: http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010reg.php HOTEL ACCOMMODATION We encourage you to make hotel arrangements at your earliest convenience. AWP?s Headquarter Hotel, the Hyatt Regency Denver, is sold out. Information for AWP?s overflow hotels can be found at: A complete list of the Featured Presenters appearing at the 2010 AWP Conference & Bookfair can now be found on our website at: http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010headliners.php A complete 2010 conference schedule can be found at: http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010sched.php If you have any questions or concerns please let us know. We look forward to seeing you in Denver! Best Wishes, Shanley Shanley Jacobs Conference Coordinator Association of Writers & Writing Programs 703-993-4317 www.facebook.com/AWPWriter www.awpwriter.org/conference -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 16 11:46:14 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Jo Bang article Message-ID: <8CC7D3EAFA30211-43B4-DDD8@webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100216/FEATURES06/2160315/1010/FEATURES/Acclaimed+poet+Mary+Jo+Bang+knows+the+value+of+narrative You know poets: They hang out with creative types and play games with words. Take Mary Jo Bang, who is coming to Louisville on Thursday as the keynote speaker in the free, public portion of the University of Louisville ?Conference on Literature and Culture since 1900.? Her companion for the past few years has been Italian poet Dante Alighieri and his trilogy, ?The Divine Comedy.? Her favorite part is the first book, ?The Inferno.? It's an endlessly compelling story of sin and its consequences. Poets do condense language and use ambiguity, Bang said in a telephone interview. ?You have to leave out a lot of the filler (but) when you're using very few words and meaning several things, you can say much more.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 12:32:31 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:32:31 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Jo Bang article In-Reply-To: <8CC7D3EAFA30211-43B4-DDD8@webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7D3EAFA30211-43B4-DDD8@webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: the game is pretty crummy *as a game* -- we played the demo, and it had very little variation in game play, was very dull -- you know, it was obvious how to kill the devil, but then you just had to whack away for 15 minutes to actually get the job done and move on -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 16 12:40:35 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:40:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poets at The Living Theatre: Douglas A. Martin, Julie Patton, Kristin Prevallet and Nathaniel Siegel Tuesday Feb 23rd at 8pm Message-ID: <554002.56265.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nathaniel Siegel Dear Poetics List Members: You are invited to attend this upcoming performance in NYC ! Love, Nathaniel ________________________________ The LIVING THEATRE Reading Series presents: Poets at The Living Theatre: Douglas A. Martin, Julie Patton, Kristin Prevallet and Nathaniel Siegel Read and perform their work on Tuesday February 23rd 2010 at 8pm Admission: $6 at the door Douglas A. Martin is the author most recently of a novel, Once You Go Back (Seven Stories Press) and a lyric narrative, Your Body Figured (Nightboat Books). His other works include: In the Time of Assignments, a book of poetry; Branwell, a novel of the Bronte brother; and They Change the Subject, a book of stories. His first novel, Outline of My Lover, was named an International Book of the Year in The Times Literary Supplement and adapted in part by the Forsythe Company for the multimedia ballet and live film Kammer/Kammer. He teaches in the low-residency MFA Program at Goddard College. http://douglasarthur.blogspot.com/ Julie Patton is the author of Teething on Type (Rodent Press). She has published poems in Transfer, Tribes, and other magazines, and in Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe (Collier Books). Her articles and essays appear in Educating the Imagination: Essays & Ideas for Teachers & Writers (T&W), and in Teachers & Writers. In 1993 she received the New York City Arts in Education Sustained Achievement Award in Literary Arts. She has performed her work at the New York Shakespeare Festival, the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe, the Whitney Museum, Houston's Center for Art and Performance, and Cleveland Public Theatre's International Sonic Disturbance Festival. http://home.jps.net/~nada/patton.htm Air: The Four Seasons A Performance in White Conceived by Kristin Prevallet (poet) and Colette Alexander (cellist) with Julie Patton (vocals) and Yael Acher (flute) Kristin Prevallet is the author of four books of poetry, most recently I, Afterlife: Essay in Mourning Time (Essay Press, 2007). She was the recipient of a 2007 New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship in poetry and a 2004 Pen translation fund award. Her edited collection of writings by Helen Adam, A Helen Adam Reader, was published by the National Poetry Foundation in 2007. Recent work has appeared in The Brooklyn Rail, The Chicago Review, and Words Without Borders. She lives in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. http://www.kayvallet.com/ Colette Alexander began playing the cello at the age of four in Detroit, Michigan, and has studied classical, contemporary classical, North Indian and Persian Music at Interlochen, Meadowmount, Sarah Lawrence College and the California Institute of the Arts. She has performed with Yo-Yo Ma, the New York New Music Ensemble, Jens Lekman, Josh Groban, Rilo Kiley and Rachael Yamagata. She currently resides in Brooklyn, New York. A native of Tel Aviv, Yael Acher Graduated with a BA degree in music and classical flute performance from the Rubin Academy for Music and Dance in Jerusalem. She has lived and worked as a performer, composer, and educator in Copenhagen since 1992. In 2003, she took a certificate course in MAX/MSP, at Harvestworks, New York, and in 2005 she won a Fulbright scholarship to study Composition at NYU and Hunter College. Since then she has resided and worked in New York City. Nathaniel A. Siegel is a poet and artist. His work has been exhibited at Visual AIDS, the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation, and The HOWL ! Festival?s Art Around the Park.. Upcoming projects include hosting COME HEAR ! a marathon four hour Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Queer poetry reading at The Rainbow Book Fair on Saturday March 27th at the CUNY Graduate Center at 34th St and 5th Avenue in New York City. A member of the Executive Board of The HOWL ! Festival, Nathaniel is working on September 2010?s HOWL ! Festival and HOWL ! Arts Project events. His first book Tony is published by Portable Press at Yo Yo Labs. http://yoyolabs.com/siegel.html ?The answer is always YES ! Love !? THE LIVING THEATRE 21 Clinton St. (between East Houston and Stanton Street) New York, New York 10002 http://www.livingtheatre.org/ Directions: Buses: Houston Street Bus M21 or Avenue B Bus M9 Subway: F train to "2nd Avenue" (exit front of train on 1st Ave; walk east along Houston) or F train to "Delancey Street" Thank you to Dorothy Friedman and THE LIVING THEATRE ! -- NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut -- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Tue Feb 16 12:52:45 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:52:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice Message-ID: <014d01caaf30$da6c1d90$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Recently returned to writing poetry after a 30 year absence. As a birder and field trip leader (abutting a wildlife refuge, 90 miles from the boreal forest), much of my poetry has a naturalistic foundation. As a pastor, some of my poetry betrays:) a faith bias. Came out of the closet a bit recently, sharing selected poetry with a favorite author/poet (30 books); received some encouragement (along with excellent criticism). Would welcome advice. As I'm actively working on my first poetry volume, what magazines, websites, publishers etc. would you suggest inquiring or submitting to, with the above bases and biases? Thanks! Al Schirmacher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Feb 16 13:55:05 2010 From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:55:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice Message-ID: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> It's the classic advice, but you need to do some research. There are lots of good online sites (Duotrope is one) that'll direct you to websites of poetry journals, and will give you at least some direction as to the kind of poems that certain journals are looking for. Good luck! Original Message: ----------------- From: Pastor Al Schirmacher pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:52:45 -0600 To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice Recently returned to writing poetry after a 30 year absence. As a birder and field trip leader (abutting a wildlife refuge, 90 miles from the boreal forest), much of my poetry has a naturalistic foundation. As a pastor, some of my poetry betrays:) a faith bias. Came out of the closet a bit recently, sharing selected poetry with a favorite author/poet (30 books); received some encouragement (along with excellent criticism). Would welcome advice. As I'm actively working on my first poetry volume, what magazines, websites, publishers etc. would you suggest inquiring or submitting to, with the above bases and biases? Thanks! Al Schirmacher -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Feb 16 14:19:14 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:19:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> Message-ID: And apparently, modesty does not prevent me from mentioning my own, quite extensive web site, which contains a multitude of links to online journals and other resources for poetry. Address is below: Poetry Library. Of great help in researching possible outlets would be the Poets & Writers site, which you can find on my Links page. On 2/16/10 12:55 PM, "opus40-01 at opus40.org" wrote: > It's the classic advice, but you need to do some research. There are lots > of good online sites (Duotrope is one) that'll direct you to websites of > poetry journals, and will give you at least some direction as to the kind > of poems that certain journals are looking for. > > Good luck! > > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 16:02:08 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:02:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] e-zine Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002161302o4f44878fme09c8a008334da0c@mail.gmail.com> http://foundlingreview.com/index.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Tue Feb 16 16:14:35 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:14:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Thanks. Have been doing research, had hoped to gain further insight from this group, since not every organization or magazine is reliable. Al Schirmacher ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Advice It's the classic advice, but you need to do some research. There are lots of good online sites (Duotrope is one) that'll direct you to websites of poetry journals, and will give you at least some direction as to the kind of poems that certain journals are looking for. Good luck! Original Message: ----------------- From: Pastor Al Schirmacher pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:52:45 -0600 To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice Recently returned to writing poetry after a 30 year absence. As a birder and field trip leader (abutting a wildlife refuge, 90 miles from the boreal forest), much of my poetry has a naturalistic foundation. As a pastor, some of my poetry betrays:) a faith bias. Came out of the closet a bit recently, sharing selected poetry with a favorite author/poet (30 books); received some encouragement (along with excellent criticism). Would welcome advice. As I'm actively working on my first poetry volume, what magazines, websites, publishers etc. would you suggest inquiring or submitting to, with the above bases and biases? Thanks! Al Schirmacher -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 16 16:35:46 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:35:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: Do the research, then look for a copy in bookstore or library. Poetry with a bent towards formal religion is often for a special market. There are a ton of journals that print little else. Nature poetry is easier. Aside from the normal run of journals, non-poetry environmental journals often print a poem or two. But there's also the matter of taste--what kind of poetry does the journal recognize as poetry? For that you have to see the thing. Best, Mark At 04:14 PM 2/16/2010, you wrote: >Thanks. > >Have been doing research, had hoped to gain >further insight from this group, since not every >organization or magazine is reliable. > >Al Schirmacher > >----- Original Message ----- From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:55 PM >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Advice > > >It's the classic advice, but you need to do some research. There are lots >of good online sites (Duotrope is one) that'll direct you to websites of >poetry journals, and will give you at least some direction as to the kind >of poems that certain journals are looking for. > >Good luck! > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: Pastor Al Schirmacher pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:52:45 -0600 >To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice > > >Recently returned to writing poetry after a 30 year absence. > >As a birder and field trip leader (abutting a wildlife refuge, 90 miles >from the boreal forest), much of my poetry has a naturalistic foundation. > >As a pastor, some of my poetry betrays:) a faith bias. > >Came out of the closet a bit recently, sharing selected poetry with a >favorite author/poet (30 books); received some encouragement (along with >excellent criticism). > >Would welcome advice. As I'm actively working on my first poetry volume, >what magazines, websites, publishers etc. would you suggest inquiring or >submitting to, with the above bases and biases? > >Thanks! > >Al Schirmacher > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - >http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 17:11:16 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:11:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different research (although duotrope is really great) and write different things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript publication. some people on another list where I participate have no problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book they've accepted. I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it differently. There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I think. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 16 17:37:13 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:37:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com><01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright bribery (vanity presses). A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose work I admire is published. And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, and someone should do something about it. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > they've accepted. > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > differently. > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > think. > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Feb 16 19:05:07 2010 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:05:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice Message-ID: <19d57.27d72151.38ac8cb3@cs.com> I haven't looked at Poets Market in several years, but it used to be full of practical advice of all kinds. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 19:39:44 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:39:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: <19d57.27d72151.38ac8cb3@cs.com> References: <19d57.27d72151.38ac8cb3@cs.com> Message-ID: especially infamous was its rating system, I, II, III, IV, V. I was supposedly beginner, II was most anything, III was closed to over the transom submissions, IV was themes, V was solicitation only -- or some similar. There's also a writer's market, a graphic design, illustrator's market, an artists market, the CLMP, poets&writers classifieds (online), and the AWP newsletter. Poetry Flash has listings online and in it too... B/W Robin: I do (and recommend to students) look at acknowledgements pages of books I like and bio sections of journals for mentions of other journals that likely have similar editorial taste; online, the links pages are especially useful. On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > I haven't looked at Poets Market in several years, but it used to be full of > practical advice of all kinds. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 16 19:52:36 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:52:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: References: <19d57.27d72151.38ac8cb3@cs.com> Message-ID: > B/W Robin: I do (and recommend to students) look at acknowledgements > pages of books I like and bio sections of journals for mentions of > other journals that likely have similar editorial taste; online, the > links pages are especially useful. Dead right, Catherine!! Where do people whose work you admire publish their poems? Would the editors possibly like mine? And even if they didn't, the magazine will probably be worth reading anyway. I think, now you've reminded me of this, I'd push the "read the acknowledgements" bit front and centre of any advice. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 08:05:42 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:05:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry on Old Sonnet In-Reply-To: References: <19d57.27d72151.38ac8cb3@cs.com> Message-ID: <4B7BE9A6.1050805@nut-n-but.net> I was around twenty when I wrote the sonnet below. A few days ago, I changed its last two lines--and, just now, line one's "eagle eyes" to "sharpened eyes." I have all kinds of trouble evaluating it. It may be okay or even good, but it's so much in a long-disused style, in spite of its backwards rhyming that halfwits won't consider rhyming, that I can't read it with much enjoyment. *John Keats* He read of Greece; and then with sharpened eyes, espied its gods' dim conjurations still in breeze-soft force throughout his native isle-- in force in clouds' remote allusiveness, in oceanwaves' eternal whispering, in woodlands' shadowy impermanence. Once cognizant of earth's allure, he sought a method of imprisonment - a skill with which to hold forever what he saw. The way the soil and vernal rain converge in carefree swarming flowers, Keats & Spring then intersected quietly in verse. The realms he had so often visted at once grew larger by at least a tenth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Feb 17 09:45:29 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice In-Reply-To: References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <4B7C0109.2070006@opus40.org> Catherine's response is so good it's hard to add much to it, and I love the analogy to a band. For another analogy, here's something I wrote on this subject a short while back: http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner~y2009m4d8-The-Writers-Markets-Handicapping-the-literary-magazines Catherine Daly wrote: > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > they've accepted. > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > differently. > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > think. > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 11:09:20 2010 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:09:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: <201002161700.o1GH05Av002992@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002161700.o1GH05Av002992@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5908b9b21002170809yba951b0tb59398645d3a2195@mail.gmail.com> Felicitations to a PASTOR -POET.... YOU RE WELCOME TO THE GENRE OF multidisciplinary,philologically talented writers and poets especially A MAZE OF those contributing to or revewing poetry,poetics and literati generally.My modest self is also not a specialist like the guys at NEW POETRY DIGEST & NEWS but i have gained immensely from their robust cerebral interactions and candid rejoinders since 2004 i started submitting views with my initial HAMMERWORD200 at YAHOO.CO.UK.i M JUST BUOYED THAT THE LIKE OF YOU IN THE CHURCH -one of the most spiritually vital sector that cant be ignored nor jettisioned irrelevant in the renewal process of a nation and her leaders and artists and rulers-you will have a lot significant less prosaic to reflect frankly or poetically.There are a wide range of intellectuals ,presidents of nations, pastors,students,bishops, doctors,scientists writing poetry.already-across the years. Publishing or getting published or reviewed on the net or offline as hard copy prints is another kettle of fish.You re already psychologically prepared for the literary basics -to write and be read and leave the rest to critics.Permit me to say that this isnt a one-way traffic depending on your immediate and long term objectives of writing..which should include to be read and expect your output to be used as raw material for better living ,philosophical standpost or again mimic a desidearatum which your motifs or heroes or characters or thematic poetic focus any of these can proffer or elicit or inspire the psyche of your priviledged lay readers or professional poets who may not gloss over the poetry or otherwise in your written works.However as John Updike writes -writing is so glasslike a qaulity that it takes a lot of skilled patience for the author to produce something lucid enough or technically successful to be labelled poetic or fictitious or creative literariness.ADUKE ADEBAYO ,a professor of fFrench & ComparativeLiterature reechoed this on many pages of her philologically gorgeous INAUGURAL LECTURE :THE NATURE & FUNCTIONS OF COMPARATIVE LITERATURE -THE COMPARATIST'S PERSPECTIVE delivered at UNIVERSITY OF iBADAN,NIGERIA. Poetry is actually different from every day language or conversation in virtually every dialect or language or tribal usage.Just as Jesus like to talk or answer his disciples or Pharises in parables -imagine the The Ten Virgins & their grooming zeal at identijfying their partners & how mainly wisely filling their lamps with enough oil can guaranty undoubtful recognition of their respective brides. As a pastor inurred in poetry for 30 years Prince should surely have a robust volumes ahead to write or publish to a ready audience online or offline insofar as the pastor -poet is ready to narrate poetically his varied and atimes uniique metaphorical encounters with the demons during or after deliverance sessions as 's the case in pentecostal and other spirit -filled bible based churches.Dr Duewell 's TOUCH THE WORLD WITH PRAYER is a classic readable paperback work accessible to the lay public -especially his guide to new missionaries how to destro or burn idols in ASIA by holding the bible at hand and minister a counter power to the witchcraft -laden deities that were very common then in Asia -the focus of the The Duewells then. I fervently encourage you to start the writing or start submitting his works because -i myself i ve carried yet undelivered pregnancies of UNWRITTEN PROSE OR POETRY ON DELIVERANCES i ve actually witnessed in three churches and Holy Ghost ASSEMLIES & NIGHT OF BLISS that have gathered a 3million people to worship monthly in Nigeria within my 11 year of faith in Christ Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit within his believers.The power of Light over darkness is immensely wide and scientists too have proved that there's a super intelligent Creator of this universe & planet earth -merely a portion of the entire galaxy of God's handiwork.Even the BIG BANG theory and the YING & YANG versions of the creation also point mysteriously to a super Being which all societal groups called a revered name cosmologically equals to CHI(Achebe,Chinua),Olodumare (Wole Soyinka,Forest Of A Thousand Demons reechoed in several Yoruba Literature classics by D.O. FAGUNWA,ADIITU OLODUMARE,etc. In all these literary works much laden with belief models and deities and demons -a modern pastor will not find it barren to write or reflect copiously for the eager world audience to be carrried to a mystic but not necessarily maligning narrative.A poet will always have his/her/ own view or perspective or style about anything commonly or unusually expressed to the laity.Biodun Jeifo's review in The Nigerian Guardian On Sunday,14feb2010 of TENANTS IN THE HOUSE,a confessional novel saturated with political misdemeanors and passions fired by charasteristic libido excreta by the compulsively prolific,physician writer, WALE OKEDIRAN 's latest but not the least novel recently lauched by EVANSLTD/BOOKSELL LTD is professionally critical yet not a wet blanket to any creative writer threading the path of specialists like C.DAY LEWIS,UPDIKE,ACHEBE,NGUGI,etc Beyond and within this reference I look forward to PASTOR AL SHIMACHER 's writings.I fondly hope you wont limit your works to your memoirs alone...Just as AMY KING like to use the male and female gender power of love to express her rich thoughts and experiences any Pastor of a Parich especially for 30 years would richly be blessed with endlessly readable stuff.You re welcome to a journalizine forum of diverse and gifted poets and reviewers -across the ages. GBEMII TIJANI MST CONVENER,CIVIC CONCERN INITIATIVE,Regional Director,Healthy Living Communicatins. On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > ? ? ? ?new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ? ? ? ?http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ? ? ? ?new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ? ? ? ?new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ? 1. Third way (jforjames at aol.com) > ? 2. "Open Mike" (Skip Fox) > ? 3. Re: "Open Mike" (Jeff Newberry) > ? 4. Re: Toot (Judy Prince) > ? 5. Fwd: Two Weeks Left to Pre-Register for AWP 2010 > ? ? ?(jforjames at aol.com) > ? 6. Mary Jo Bang article (jforjames at aol.com) > ? 7. Re: Mary Jo Bang article (Catherine Daly) > ? 8. Fwd: Poets at The Living Theatre: Douglas A. Martin, ? ? ?Julie > ? ? ?Patton, ? Kristin Prevallet and Nathaniel Siegel Tuesday Feb 23rd > ? ? ?at 8pm (amy king) > ? 9. Advice (Pastor Al Schirmacher) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:35:06 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Third way > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CC7C8D1CB8482D-6D68-3792 at webmail-d066.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Saw this announcement and noticed that the drafter has solved the great 'open mic v. open mike' debate by introducing another variant... > > Wednesday Night Poetry Series, March 10th, Blue Z Coffeehouse, Route 25, (127 South Main Street) Newtown, CT, ?7:30 Open Myk, 8:30 Featured Reading. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100215/7075e937/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:32:54 -0600 > From: "Skip Fox" > Subject: [New-Poetry] "Open Mike" > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: <92022783F5334D79AE2B2A5C7830EA76 at win.louisiana.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > As Christian Bok said, the scariest two words in the English language. But > isn't it just a matter of time until someone changes his or her name to > "Open Mike"? Imagine the audience of hopeful young poets at "Open Mike > Night"! > > > > I don't believe any of this, of course. I usually attend to open mike > readers closely and often talk to them afterwards. Met some pretty amazing > people who became poet-friends this way. Lots of drivel, of course, but most > of it trying and wide-eyed. > > > > Does anyone have any interesting open mike stories?? The one that comes to > my mind is of a young man who passed out at the mike after straightening his > papers out and pausing, never having uttered a word, not even his name. (To > his credit, after we picked him up, sat him down and got him water, he > listened respectfully to the other open mike readers, got up at the end and > read his work.) > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100215/f1acf642/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:10:33 -0500 > From: Jeff Newberry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Open Mike" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<731bb17a1002151310x655f0b96pb723bf881a733a3f at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Skip, > > I actually enjoy attending open mic nights. ?To me, they're evidence that > poetry is a living, breathing thing. ?Is much of the work quality? ?No, not > really, any more than much of the music one hears at an open jam session is > quality. ?Still, I like open mics, and if one's in my area, I usually try to > attend. > > Editor of Anti- and author of Torched Verse Ends Steven D. Schroeder has > developed a tongue-in-cheek "Poetry Reading Drinking Game," (see > http://www.steveschroeder.info/2006/01/poetry-reading-drinking-game.html) > which, while not explicitly related to open mics, makes me want to develop > an "Open Mic Night" Bingo card. ?What would be in the center? ?Probably "And > our next reader is . . . " > > What might some other squares on the Open Mic Night Bingo Card be? > > Jeff Newberry > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> ?As Christian Bok said, the scariest two words in the English language. >> But isn?t it just a matter of time until someone changes his or her name to >> ?Open Mike?? Imagine the audience of hopeful young poets at ?Open Mike >> Night?! >> >> >> >> I don?t believe any of this, of course. I usually attend to open mike >> readers closely and often talk to them afterwards. Met some pretty amazing >> people who became poet-friends this way. Lots of drivel, of course, but most >> of it trying and wide-eyed. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any interesting open mike stories?? The one that comes to >> my mind is of a young man who passed out at the mike after straightening his >> papers out and pausing, never having uttered a word, not even his name. (To >> his credit, after we picked him up, sat him down and got him water, he >> listened respectfully to the other open mike readers, got up at the end and >> read his work.) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that > is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100215/8fdb48a4/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:45:00 -0500 > From: Judy Prince > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toot > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks, Al, > > I quite agree. ?Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! > > Best, > > Judy > > On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: > >> ?And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: ?http://judithprince.com/home.html > > "I can't read my library card." ?---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100215/0956cb97/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:44:28 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Two Weeks Left to Pre-Register for AWP 2010 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CC7D3E70867F56-43B4-DD35 at webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AWP Conference > Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02 pm > Subject: Two Weeks Left to Pre-Register for AWP 2010 > > Dear Friend, > > IF YOU HAVE ALREADY REGISTERED AND RECEIVED A REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION FOR > THE 2010 CONFERENCE IN DENVER, PLEASE DISREGARD THIS EMAIL. This is just a > reminder that there are only two weeks left to pre-register for the > conference. If you have not already done so, we encourage you to register > before Sunday, February 28, 2010 to take advantage of the discounted > pre-conference registration rates. No pre-conference registrations will be > accepted after February 28, 2010. > > For more information please visit our secure online registration site: > http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010reg.php > > HOTEL ACCOMMODATION > We encourage you to make hotel arrangements at your earliest convenience. > AWP?s Headquarter Hotel, the Hyatt Regency Denver, is sold out. Information > for AWP?s overflow hotels can be found at: > > > A complete list of the Featured Presenters appearing at the 2010 AWP > Conference & Bookfair can now be found on our website at: > http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010headliners.php > > A complete 2010 conference schedule can be found at: > http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2010sched.php > > If you have any questions or concerns please let us know. ?We look forward > to seeing you in Denver! > > Best Wishes, Shanley > > Shanley Jacobs > Conference Coordinator > Association of Writers & Writing Programs > 703-993-4317 > www.facebook.com/AWPWriter > www.awpwriter.org/conference > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100216/c320e9d6/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:46:14 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Jo Bang article > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CC7D3EAFA30211-43B4-DDD8 at webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100216/FEATURES06/2160315/1010/FEATURES/Acclaimed+poet+Mary+Jo+Bang+knows+the+value+of+narrative > > You know poets: They hang out with creative types and play games with words. > > Take Mary Jo Bang, who is coming to Louisville on Thursday as the keynote speaker in the free, public portion of the University of Louisville ?Conference on Literature and Culture since 1900.? > > Her companion for the past few years has been Italian poet Dante Alighieri and his trilogy, ?The Divine Comedy.? Her favorite part is the first book, ?The Inferno.? It's an endlessly compelling story of sin and its consequences. > > Poets do condense language and use ambiguity, Bang said in a telephone interview. ?You have to leave out a lot of the filler (but) when you're using very few words and meaning several things, you can say much more.? > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100216/6ff60ebd/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:32:31 -0800 > From: Catherine Daly > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mary Jo Bang article > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > the game is pretty crummy *as a game* -- we played the demo, and it > had very little variation in game play, was very dull -- you know, it > was obvious how to kill the devil, but then you just had to whack away > for 15 minutes to actually get the job done and move on > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:40:35 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poets at The Living Theatre: Douglas A. > ? ? ? ?Martin, Julie Patton, ? Kristin Prevallet and Nathaniel Siegel Tuesday > ? ? ? ?Feb 23rd at 8pm > To: UB Poetics discussion group , > ? ? ? ?"NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: <554002.56265.qm at web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nathaniel Siegel ?Dear Poetics List Members: You are invited to attend this upcoming performance in NYC ! Love, Nathaniel > ________________________________ The LIVING THEATRE Reading Series presents: ? Poets at The Living Theatre: Douglas A. Martin, Julie Patton, Kristin Prevallet and Nathaniel Siegel ? Read and perform their work on ? Tuesday February 23rd ?2010 at 8pm ? Admission: $6 at the door ? ? Douglas A. Martin is the author most recently of a novel, Once You Go Back (Seven Stories Press) and a lyric narrative, Your Body Figured (Nightboat Books). ?His other works include: In the Time of Assignments, a book of poetry; ?Branwell, a novel of the Bronte brother; and They Change the Subject, ?a book of stories. ?His first novel, Outline of My Lover, was named an International Book of the Year in The Times Literary Supplement and adapted in part by the Forsythe Company for the multimedia ballet and live film Kammer/Kammer. ?He teaches in the low-residency MFA Program at Goddard College. http://douglasarthur.blogspot.com/ ? Julie Patton is the author of Teething on Type > ?(Rodent Press). She has published poems in Transfer, Tribes, and other magazines, and in Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe (Collier Books). Her articles and essays appear in Educating the Imagination: Essays & Ideas for Teachers & Writers (T&W), and in Teachers & Writers. In 1993 she received the New York City Arts in Education Sustained Achievement Award in Literary Arts. She has performed her work at the New York Shakespeare Festival, the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe, the Whitney Museum, Houston's Center for Art and Performance, and Cleveland Public Theatre's International Sonic Disturbance Festival. http://home.jps.net/~nada/patton.htm ? Air: The Four Seasons ?A Performance in White Conceived by Kristin Prevallet (poet) and Colette Alexander (cellist) ?with Julie Patton (vocals) and Yael Acher (flute) ? Kristin Prevallet is the author of four books of poetry, most recently I, Afterlife: Essay in Mourning Time (Essay Press, 2007). She was the > ?recipient of a 2007 New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship in poetry and a 2004 Pen translation fund award. Her edited collection of writings by Helen Adam, A Helen Adam Reader, was published by the National Poetry Foundation in 2007. Recent work has appeared in The Brooklyn Rail, The Chicago Review, and ?Words Without Borders. She lives in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ? ?http://www.kayvallet.com/ ? Colette Alexander began playing the cello at the age of four in Detroit, Michigan, and has studied classical, contemporary classical, North Indian and Persian ?Music at Interlochen, Meadowmount, Sarah Lawrence College and the California Institute of the Arts. She has performed with Yo-Yo Ma, the New York New Music Ensemble, Jens Lekman, Josh Groban, Rilo Kiley and Rachael Yamagata. ?She currently resides in Brooklyn, New York. ? A native of Tel Aviv, Yael Acher Graduated with a BA degree in music and classical flute performance from the Rubin Academy for Music > ?and Dance in Jerusalem. She has lived and worked as a performer, composer, and educator in Copenhagen since 1992. In 2003, she took a certificate course in MAX/MSP, at Harvestworks, New York, and in 2005 she won a Fulbright scholarship to study Composition at NYU and Hunter College. Since then she has resided and worked in New York City. ? Nathaniel A. Siegel is a poet and artist. His work has been exhibited at Visual AIDS, the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation, and The HOWL ! Festival?s Art Around the Park.. Upcoming projects include hosting COME HEAR ! a marathon four hour Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Queer poetry reading at The Rainbow Book Fair on Saturday March 27th at the CUNY Graduate Center at 34th St and 5th Avenue in New York City. A member of the Executive Board of The HOWL ! Festival, Nathaniel is working on September 2010?s HOWL ! Festival and HOWL ! Arts Project events. His first book Tony is published by Portable Press at Yo Yo > ?Labs. http://yoyolabs.com/siegel.html ? ?The answer is always YES ! Love !? ? ? THE LIVING THEATRE 21 Clinton St. (between East Houston and Stanton Street) New York, New York 10002 ? http://www.livingtheatre.org/ ? Directions: Buses: Houston Street Bus M21 > or Avenue B Bus M9 Subway: F train to "2nd Avenue" (exit front of train on 1st Ave; walk east along Houston) > or F train to "Delancey Street" ? Thank you to Dorothy Friedman and THE LIVING THEATRE ! > > ?-- > NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm INTERVIEW Bookslut -- http://www.bookslut.com/features/2010_01_015554.php RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY ?"The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100216/143cbacd/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:52:45 -0600 > From: "Pastor Al Schirmacher" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Advice > To: > Message-ID: <014d01caaf30$da6c1d90$7e01a8c0 at PASTORAL> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Recently returned to writing poetry after a 30 year absence. > > As a birder and field trip leader (abutting a wildlife refuge, 90 miles from the boreal forest), much of my poetry has a naturalistic foundation. > > As a pastor, some of my poetry betrays:) a faith bias. > > Came out of the closet a bit recently, sharing selected poetry with a favorite author/poet (30 books); received some encouragement (along with excellent criticism). > > Would welcome advice. ?As I'm actively working on my first poetry volume, what magazines, websites, publishers etc. would you suggest inquiring or submitting to, with the above bases and biases? > > Thanks! > > Al Schirmacher > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100216/3814b6d9/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 26 > ****************************************** > From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 11:39:34 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:39:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] publication models In-Reply-To: References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com><01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <8CC7E06EC0828B1-5ABC-645@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the different poetry publishing models. If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost in some other way, is that that much different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll probably spend nearly as much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed (foetry anyone). If you let a small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on their list will lose money. Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, the profit tide will turn. But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then selling them hand to hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will be sold. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright bribery (vanity presses). A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose work I admire is published. And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, and someone should do something about it. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > they've accepted. > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > differently. > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > think. > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 17 17:30:28 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question Message-ID: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Responses very much appreciated for presentation I'm working on, here -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/please-help/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Feb 17 18:36:24 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:36:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elif Batuman's THE POSSESSED Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002171536i366666fbp6158c415fee2c1d8@mail.gmail.com> Apologies for cross-posting. "The problem with creative writing programs is their obsession with craft," says Elif Batuman. Today's Dwight Garner NYT review of Elif Batuman's latest book, The Possessed, is a love/laugh fest: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/books/17book.html Batuman's family is Turkish; she was born in NYC, grew up in New Jersey, and is wonderfully quotable: ?I stopped believing that ?theory? had the power to ruin literature for anyone, or that it was possible to compromise something you loved by studying it. Was love really such a tenuous thing? Wasn?t the point of love that it made you want to learn more, to immerse yourself, to become possessed?? In the review, more of her thoughts on creative writing programs: ?What did craft ever try to say about the world, the human condition, or the search for meaning?? Ms. Batuman asks. ?All it had were its negative dictates: ?Show, don?t tell?; ?Murder your darlings?; ?Omit needless words.? As if writing were a matter of overcoming bad habits ? of omitting needless words.? Ms. Batuman?s search for something more from literature than ?brisk verbs and vivid nouns? led her, swooning but alert, into the arms of the great Russian writers: Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoyevsky, Chekhov, Babel. ----------- But, Elif, who does NOT drool when reading those - and other - Russian writers?! I'm thinking Gogol and Lermontov, notably, as well. I may invest $15 in her book----plus she looks a lot like a dryad! Best, Judy -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 18:55:05 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:55:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Anne Spencer Message-ID: <8CC7E43C316C3F9-3130-2346@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nj.com/homegarden/garden/index.ssf/2010/02/anne_bethel_spencer_harlem_ren.html Anne Spencer: Harlem Renaissance poet who celebrated gardening By Valerie Sudol February 17, 2010, 4:18PM Poet Anne Spencer Turn an earth clod Peel a shaley rock In fondness molest a curly worm Whose familiar is everywhere Kneel And the curly worm, sentient now Will light the word that tells the poet What a poem is. -- Anne Spencer, June 1974 She was a poet of the Harlem Renaissance, an inspiration to her community and a gardener who saw the world not in a grain of sand, but in a clod of soil. Anne Bethel Spencer (1882 ? 1975) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 18:56:32 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:56:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> My question: Is it possible to be a bad innovative poet? Or is 'innovative' denotative of posi necessarily a value Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: UB Poetics discussion group ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:30 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question Responses very much appreciated for presentation I'm working on, here -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/please-help/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 19:13:54 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:13:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > My question: > Is it possible to be a bad innovative poet? Or is 'innovative' > denotative of posi necessarily a value > > Jim Finnegan > 860-508-2810 A genuinely innovative poet will be of value because his innovations will either prove to be worth using by other poets, or they will indicate wrong turns. In either case, they will make intelligent people interested in poetry think a little about it. That said, it is of course possible for an innovative poet to compose bad poems. On the other hand, a poet who keeps from doing anything that wasn't widely done by poets fifty or more years ago can not be a bad poet. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 19:30:27 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:30:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right turns of innovative poetry? Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question jforjames at aol.com wrote: My question: Is it possible to be a bad innovative poet? Or is 'innovative' denotative of posi necessarily a value Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 A genuinely innovative poet will be of value because his innovations will either prove to be worth using by other poets, or they will indicate wrong turns. In either case, they will make intelligent people interested in poetry think a little about it. That said, it is of course possible for an innovative poet to compose bad poems. On the other hand, a poet who keeps from doing anything that wasn't widely done by poets fifty or more years ago can not be a bad poet. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Feb 17 19:41:50 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:41:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de81002171641m25d89e0cj21674b6fe4f9b134@mail.gmail.com> i've been reading a lot of early twentieth century little magazines in which much of the innovation of modernism was happening. i would say yes to that question. in early issues of poetry or others or the little magazine, many people are formally innovative without having any other lasting impact. connie On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 4:56 PM, wrote: > My question: > Is it possible to be a bad innovative poet? Or is 'innovative' denotative of > posi?necessarily a value > > Jim Finnegan > 860-508-2810 > > -----Original Message----- > From: amy king > To: UB Poetics discussion group ; NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:30 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question > > Responses very much appreciated for presentation I'm working on, here > --?http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/please-help/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 19:45:11 2010 From: heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com (Heather June Gibbons) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:45:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elif Batuman's THE POSSESSED In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002171536i366666fbp6158c415fee2c1d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002171536i366666fbp6158c415fee2c1d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Judy (and all)-- Elif Batuman sounds like a charming person, and a good writer. As for her remarks on creative writing programs and craft-based pedagogy, I'd suggest that craft is perhaps the only aspect of creative writing that can actually be taught. If a student doesn't already have an interest in the human condition and isn't already engaged in the search for meaning...well, they ought to read some more Russian writers-- or even the newspaper-- and come back when they have something to say. Most of my students come to the classroom with plenty to say. What they need my help with is figuring out * how* to say it. By the way, I'm rather new to the list, though I've been "listening in" for a couple of weeks now. I'm a poet and teacher. Nice to meet you all. Best, Heather June Gibbons www.heatherjunegibbons.com On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Apologies for cross-posting. > > "The problem with creative writing programs is their obsession with craft," > says Elif Batuman. > > Today's Dwight Garner NYT review of Elif Batuman's latest book, The > Possessed, is a love/laugh fest: > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/books/17book.html > > Batuman's family is Turkish; she was born in NYC, grew up in New Jersey, > and is wonderfully quotable: ?I stopped believing that ?theory? had the > power to ruin literature for anyone, or that it was possible to compromise > something you loved by studying it. Was love really such a tenuous thing? > Wasn?t the point of love that it made you want to learn more, to immerse > yourself, to become possessed?? > > In the review, more of her thoughts on creative writing programs: > > ?What did craft ever try to say about the world, the human condition, or > the search for meaning?? Ms. Batuman asks. ?All it had were its negative > dictates: ?Show, don?t tell?; ?Murder your darlings?; ?Omit needless words.? > As if writing were a matter of overcoming bad habits ? of omitting needless > words.? > > Ms. Batuman?s search for something more from literature than ?brisk verbs > and vivid nouns? led her, swooning but alert, into the arms of the great > Russian writers: Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoyevsky, > Chekhov, Babel. > > ----------- > > But, Elif, who does NOT drool when reading those - and other - Russian > writers?! I'm thinking Gogol and Lermontov, notably, as well. > > I may invest $15 in her book----plus she looks a lot like a dryad! > > Best, > > Judy > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 19:48:34 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:48:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> << Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right turns of innovative poetry? Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. Finnegan >> Retrospective -- successful innovations take root and become part of the tradition, unsuccessful ones don't. Robin From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 19:53:57 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:53:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> I'm playing with these questions, of course. So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by being assimilated into the tradition. An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition is bad innovation? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question << Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right turns of innovative poetry? Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. Finnegan >> Retrospective -- successful innovations take root and become part of the tradition, unsuccessful ones don't. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Feb 17 19:54:25 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:54:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81002171641m25d89e0cj21674b6fe4f9b134@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002171641m25d89e0cj21674b6fe4f9b134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002171654x657ff514t1757b97f9fdf94d2@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Connie, to you and Robin, as well. Best, Judy On 17 February 2010 19:41, Connie Voisine wrote: > i've been reading a lot of early twentieth century little magazines in > which much of the innovation of modernism was happening. i would say > yes to that question. in early issues of poetry or others or the > little magazine, many people are formally innovative without having > any other lasting impact. > > connie > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 4:56 PM, wrote: > > My question: > > Is it possible to be a bad innovative poet? Or is 'innovative' denotative > of > > posi necessarily a value > > > > Jim Finnegan > > 860-508-2810 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: amy king > > To: UB Poetics discussion group ; > NewPoetry: > > Contemporary Poetry News & Views > > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:30 pm > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question > > > > Responses very much appreciated for presentation I'm working on, here > > -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/please-help/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > -- > Connie Voisine > Associate Professor of English > New Mexico State University > cvoisine at nmsu.edu > 575-646-2027 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 20:01:32 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:01:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: well, many innovative poets reject the term experimental because an experiment CAN go awry another reason is that the query the utility of the scientific method in art making, which "experiment" can refer directly or indirectly to that still another reason some prefer "innovative" is for the "nov" part -- they are following the Pound dictum, "make it new" in this way, it is easy to consider that what is new is not always good, or an improvement -- however *useful* innovation as a practice or habit or value may seem I would put as a list of poets who are younger than the language group: flarf poets (though many are sculpting toward form) conceptual / performance art-rooted poets (though in this group, people like the Antins and Kenny G and Bergvall are/were "newer" when they started than the now-conceptual poets, although Craig is an interesting case since he is so innovative for his institution they -- at least during and exchange I had with him when I was about to visit Utah -- didn't consider to be a poet (aside from Paisley) new form poets -- Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr -- and I am listing them after "the conceptual poets" because new form is largely CONCEPTUAL form I things some other interesting poets who are younger than the language group are: Adeena Karasick: although her use of theory and sound/semantics is perhaps not new, in combination it is, and she is first doing what she's doing who is doing this now myself, because I think I'm doing a variety pack of new things: but I consider myself experimental rather than innovative, because I don't think there's much that's completely new, especially in the arts and humanities "born digital" poets such as Jason Nelson and Stephanie Strickland and Janet Holmes' F2F among the visual poets, I like David Baptiste-Chirots stuff and Mikel And's stuff -- I think it is new and fresh (though they've been doing it for quite sometime) among the collaborationists, I think those with a music background, Like Sheila Murphy and Jukka Pekka Kervinen are doing something "after Coolidge" that few others have pursued -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 20:06:33 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:06:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7C9299.8000500@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right > turns of innovative poetry? I think so: valuable innovations are simply those that eventually become mainstream--or used without comment by many poets; failed innovations are those few or no other poets take up (nor, I think, get negative critiques or only unpersuasively positive critiques (for a consensus of readers over the years). Or that's my guess. > Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. Not sure what you mean. "Innovation," like everything else, can not be perfectly defined, but it's usually pretty easy for a huge majority to agree that X is or is not an innovation. If that's what you mean. Everyone thought free versification an innovation, and it turned out to be valuable because used by many later poets. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 20:07:52 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:07:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right > turns of innovative poetry? > Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. > > Finnegan >>> > > Retrospective -- successful innovations take root and become part of > the tradition, unsuccessful ones don't. > > Robin Aw, there you go, Robin, beating me to it and saying it better. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 20:05:31 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:05:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> << So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by being assimilated into the tradition. >> Yup. << An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition is bad innovation? Finnegan >> Not necessarily bad, just irrelevant. Good or bad simply don't come into it. The successful introduction of quantitative metrics into English poetry, something that's been tried and retried virtually every generation since Philip Sidney, might have been an excellent thing. Problem is, it just never worked. If you continually have to reinvent the wheel, it probably had a square rim in the first place. Robin From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 20:08:12 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:08:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7E4DFA15AB59-3130-3428@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> In the comment stream to Amy's blog, one person suggested several names of innovative poets and then said, "They're all innovative in different ways..." So the bifurcated model from some traditional baseline may not work. Perhaps it's a radiant model, a spray of innovation going off in many directions. In my Catholic upbring we had a thing called a monstrance that the priest would drag out from time to time... http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=monstrance&gbv=2&aq=0&oq=monstra&aqi=g5 It was to be adored. A holy center from which a spray of symbolic light emanated. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question I'm playing with these questions, of course. So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by being assimilated into the tradition. An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition is bad innovation? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question << Are there objective criteria for separating those wrong and right turns of innovative poetry? Or is 'innovative' another kind of taste. Finnegan >> Retrospective -- successful innovations take root and become part of the tradition, unsuccessful ones don't. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 20:14:14 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:14:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7C9466.7040007@nut-n-but.net> I know this is the wrong place to ask, but--who knows--maybe someone will think it worth trying to answer: what is flarf poetry? I've seen poems supposed to be flarf but they seem quite varied, and not at all innovative in any way that I could detect. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 20:12:26 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:12:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7C9466.7040007@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C9466.7040007@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC7E4E9135D739-3130-3520@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Flarf is so yeste -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question I know this is the wrong place to ask, but--who knows--maybe someone will think it worth trying to answer: what is flarf poetry? I've seen poems supposed to be flarf but they seem quite varied, and not at all innovative in any way that I could detect. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Feb 17 20:17:21 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:17:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elif Batuman's THE POSSESSED In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b1002171536i366666fbp6158c415fee2c1d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002171717j47793bfp51c7975af0db77b1@mail.gmail.com> Welcome, Heather, Well said. This list has gotten its knickers in a twist about the pros and cons of MFA courses. WOMPO had a similar debate, but it seemed that quite a few of its members had been students in MFA courses, some now teachers in them, so the combined weight of their testimonies fell, I thought, on their radiant gratitude for what they had learned. I can see both sides of the issue of "teaching" creative writing, whether MFA for poets or for fiction-writers. Let's face it, the two concepts seem mutually exclusive: *teaching*.....*creative writing*. Big HOWEVER: Poets and fiction-writers have taught the hell outa themselves if they've become adept at their medium. They have wrangled and orgasmed through poems/short stories/novels/plays, imitating as much as they could, straining and striving "to be different", whilst acutely aware of wanting their "own" voice. So it goes, so we go, and so it will ever be. What those who've loathed MFA courses have objected to, primarily, I believe, has been less what Elif's said about the imagined dumbing-down to craft, but rather the teacherising or institutionalising of students' preferences. This, one supposes, is not generally denounced in other than "creative writing" courses. But it becomes especially assailable when we imagine those fresh gleamy-eyed folk ready to deliver their dreams for crafting to paper. Finally, I come down on the side of ANY benevolent attempts to have new and eager writers read and practice their writing. Folks are stronger than we sometimes imagine; they'll shove aside what doesn't "work" for them, finding what does work. We're greedy little learners, after all. EXPOSURE, then, to people and writers and writings, is all. That's why I so much liked this quote by Elif given in today's NYT book review: ?I stopped believing that ?theory? had the power to ruin literature for anyone, or that it was possible to compromise something you loved by studying it. Was love really such a tenuous thing? Wasn?t the point of love that it made you want to learn more, to immerse yourself, to become possessed?? Best, and don't be a stranger, Heather. Judy On 17 February 2010 19:45, Heather June Gibbons < heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello Judy (and all)-- > > Elif Batuman sounds like a charming person, and a good writer. As for her > remarks on creative writing programs and craft-based pedagogy, I'd suggest > that craft is perhaps the only aspect of creative writing that can actually > be taught. If a student doesn't already have an interest in the human > condition and isn't already engaged in the search for meaning...well, they > ought to read some more Russian writers-- or even the newspaper-- and come > back when they have something to say. Most of my students come to the > classroom with plenty to say. What they need my help with is figuring out > *how* to say it. > > By the way, I'm rather new to the list, though I've been "listening in" for > a couple of weeks now. I'm a poet and teacher. Nice to meet you all. > > Best, > Heather June Gibbons > www.heatherjunegibbons.com > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Apologies for cross-posting. >> >> "The problem with creative writing programs is their obsession with >> craft," says Elif Batuman. >> >> Today's Dwight Garner NYT review of Elif Batuman's latest book, The >> Possessed, is a love/laugh fest: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/books/17book.html >> >> Batuman's family is Turkish; she was born in NYC, grew up in New Jersey, >> and is wonderfully quotable: ?I stopped believing that ?theory? had the >> power to ruin literature for anyone, or that it was possible to compromise >> something you loved by studying it. Was love really such a tenuous thing? >> Wasn?t the point of love that it made you want to learn more, to immerse >> yourself, to become possessed?? >> >> In the review, more of her thoughts on creative writing programs: >> >> ?What did craft ever try to say about the world, the human condition, or >> the search for meaning?? Ms. Batuman asks. ?All it had were its negative >> dictates: ?Show, don?t tell?; ?Murder your darlings?; ?Omit needless words.? >> As if writing were a matter of overcoming bad habits ? of omitting needless >> words.? >> >> Ms. Batuman?s search for something more from literature than ?brisk verbs >> and vivid nouns? led her, swooning but alert, into the arms of the great >> Russian writers: Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoyevsky, >> Chekhov, Babel. >> >> ----------- >> >> But, Elif, who does NOT drool when reading those - and other - Russian >> writers?! I'm thinking Gogol and Lermontov, notably, as well. >> >> I may invest $15 in her book----plus she looks a lot like a dryad! >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 20:23:56 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:23:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E4DFA15AB59-3130-3428@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BF C33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E4DFA15AB59-3130-3428@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7C96AC.4050600@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > In the comment stream to Amy's blog, one person suggested several > names of innovative poets and then said, > "They're all innovative in different ways..." So the bifurcated model > from some traditional baseline may not work. You sure lost me with that. You can't bifurcate technicolor from monochromatic because there are lots of different ways of being technicolor? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 20:30:00 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> But that's almost a little sad. The destiny of valuable innovation (good=usable) is to be caught up in the mainline. It can't go on outriding forever. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question << So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by being assimilated into the tradition. >> Yup. << An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition is bad innovation? Finnegan >> Not necessarily bad, just irrelevant. Good or bad simply don't come into it. The successful introduction of quantitative metrics into English poetry, something that's been tried and retried virtually every generation since Philip Sidney, might have been an excellent thing. Problem is, it just never worked. If you continually have to reinvent the wheel, it probably had a square rim in the first place. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 20:42:40 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:42:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002171742o4b22a2b7i49f2fdd36c045a5b@mail.gmail.com> Thus (review all relevant posts), the original question - "Who are the most innovative poets writing today?" - cannot be answered. I suspect the truly innovative poets are unknown to many of us. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 17 20:50:23 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:50:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7E53DE16E722-FC0-4207@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> 'Innovative' is also a term of value in business. Proctor & Gamble, for example, continually try to reinvent soap (it). A while back on my blog, in a snide mood, I suggested that 'Make it new" had a ring of 'erzatz capitalism' to it. And if the experiment fails it does point to an eventual success. It closes off one path and thus limits the remaining possible paths. So one might say the value is in failure. The falsifiability. Getting back to sphere of literature, shouldn't we be wary innovation that is successful (draws attention itself, gets adopted on a wider scale)? Thanks for your thoughtful take on the state of innovation. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question well, many innovative poets reject the term experimental because an xperiment CAN go awry another reason is that the query the utility of the scientific method n art making, which "experiment" can refer directly or indirectly to hat still another reason some prefer "innovative" is for the "nov" part -- hey are following the Pound dictum, "make it new" in this way, it is easy to consider that what is new is not always ood, or an improvement -- however *useful* innovation as a practice r habit or value may seem I would put as a list of poets who are younger than the language group: flarf poets (though many are sculpting toward form) conceptual / performance art-rooted poets (though in this group, eople like the Antins and Kenny G and Bergvall are/were "newer" when hey started than the now-conceptual poets, although Craig is an nteresting case since he is so innovative for his institution they -- t least during and exchange I had with him when I was about to visit tah -- didn't consider to be a poet (aside from Paisley) new form poets -- Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr -- and I am listing hem after "the conceptual poets" because new form is largely ONCEPTUAL form I things some other interesting poets who are younger than the anguage group are: Adeena Karasick: although her use of theory and sound/semantics is erhaps not new, in combination it is, and she is first doing what he's doing who is doing this now myself, because I think I'm doing a variety pack of new things: but I onsider myself experimental rather than innovative, because I don't hink there's much that's completely new, especially in the arts and umanities "born digital" poets such as Jason Nelson and Stephanie Strickland and anet Holmes' F2F among the visual poets, I like David Baptiste-Chirots stuff and Mikel nd's stuff -- I think it is new and fresh (though they've been doing t for quite sometime) among the collaborationists, I think those with a music background, ike Sheila Murphy and Jukka Pekka Kervinen are doing something "after oolidge" that few others have pursued -- ll best, atherine Daly .a.b.daly at gmail.com ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 20:51:50 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:51:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> >> Retrospective -- successful innovations take root and become part of the >> tradition, unsuccessful ones don't. >> >> Robin > Aw, there you go, Robin, beating me to it and saying it better. > > --Bob Oh, well, true to my resolution never to let the sun go down on an apparent agreement between Bob and me, I thought to point to Concrete Poetry as a case in point. The two major Scottish Concrete poets in the sixties, Edwin Morgan and Ian Hamilton Finlay, both drifted further and further away from Concrete poetry, the one feeding the innovations into his mainstream line verse (think Pound and Imagism as a perhaps better known parallel) and the other into literally concrete plastic art. Then about a month ago I came on an advert for a book by nick-e melville, _selections and dissections_, with blurbs by Tom Leonard and Geof Huth. Jeezus, I thought, this I have to see, being quite unable to imagine anything that those two might remotely agree on. When I got the book and opened it, I began to howl with laughter -- easy to see why Tom liked it. (And I suppose more obviously why Geof Huth would.) But another member of this list looked at it blankly and said, "What's so funny?" So maybe the jury's still out on Concrete poetry. Equally, at the end of the seventies, I assumed that Lallans poetry was (at last and thankfully) dead in the water, and where non-standard speech in Scottish writing was at was urban street speech. But that was before Robert Crawford and Bill Herbert hit the scene. And left it to writers of the feminine persuasion like Lydia Robb to carry the banner for the real language of men (which phrase William no doubt plagiariased from his sister). Whirligig of time and all that. Funny old world altogether. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 20:53:44 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:53:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <95D52C721ADD4098815AE62BEF062BC2@RobinLaptopPC> << But that's almost a little sad. The destiny of valuable innovation (good=usable) is to be caught up in the mainline. It can't go on outriding forever. Finnegan >> Way it goes, Jim, why the acronym SBT has such a universal currency. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 20:55:40 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:55:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <648208b61002171742o4b22a2b7i49f2fdd36c045a5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002171742o4b22a2b7i49f2fdd36c045a5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: << I suspect the truly innovative poets are unknown to many of us. - Jim >> Nah, it's *real easy to find one -- just look in a mirror. niboR From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 21:10:08 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:10:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8 .5030407@nut-n-but.net> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> Robin, concrete poetry (according to most definitions) has been used by lots of advertisers, for Pete's Sake. Can't be more accepted than that. A lot of visual artists make concrete poems, too--well-known, highly-paid ones. I think it highly unlikely that it will die, although its name may be lost as more and more people doing it call themselves visual poets rather than concrete poets. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 17 21:11:18 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:11:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E4E9135D739-3130-3520@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BF C33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C9466.7040007@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E4E9135D739-3130-3520@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7CA1C6.5070004@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Flarf is so yeste Good one. Gone before I, Mr. Cutting Edge, even knew what it was. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 17 21:26:15 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:26:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> > Robin, concrete poetry (according to most definitions) has been used by > lots of advertisers, for Pete's Sake. Can't be more accepted than that. > A lot of visual artists make concrete poems, too--well-known, highly-paid > ones. I think it highly unlikely that it will die, although its name may > be lost as more and more people doing it call themselves visual poets > rather than concrete poets. > > --Bob You mean like this, Bob? (Reposted from another list that both Bob and I are on, so he'll be able to re-insert the name): << A student came into my class last year wearing a tee-shirt that read 'f c e k the Irish connection'. [Name Withheld for reasons of courtesy] (I hate to explain a joke, but Non-British SHAKSPERians may not know that the clothes retailer 'French Connection' renamed itself 'French Connection UK' a few years ago, solely to be able to use as its label the abbreviation "f c u k", and so sell young people tee-shirts that almost look rude, but can't be objected to. Oh, and you need to know that Irish people say 'feck' instead of 'fuck'.) >> What's in a name? Let's remember that the full line reads, "Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?" [note the punctuation] and doesn't mean that Juliet is wondering just where her best beloved has got to. Traditionally yours, Robin {Hey, Bob, something you maybe don't know -- Name Withheld currently teaches where I once taught. So the student in question must have been at . R.} [[PS -- liked your last post there, incidentally. But Hardy says we're not supposed to be nice to each other frontchannel <"us" being any members of that list, rather than just Bob and me>, so I'll say it here. R-Out]] From chris at chrislott.org Wed Feb 17 21:32:44 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:32:44 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elif Batuman's THE POSSESSED In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002171717j47793bfp51c7975af0db77b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002171536i366666fbp6158c415fee2c1d8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1002171717j47793bfp51c7975af0db77b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm convinced that studying lit theory and philosophy killed my creative power-- or put into a coma without any apparent way to communicate. But, I read something about this book a few weeks ago and immediately put it on my list anyway. Sounded too fun to pass up. Laura Miller just wrote about it in Salon too: http://bit.ly/aSX3w6 c From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Feb 17 22:13:23 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:13:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] See your verse in cement in St. =?windows-1252?q?Paul=92s_sidewal?= =?windows-1252?q?k_poetry_contest?= In-Reply-To: <8CC7E53DE16E722-FC0-4207@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E53DE16E722-FC0-4207@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7CB053.3010705@opus40.org> http://www.examiner.com/x-12202-Offbeat-Places-Examiner~y2010m2d17-See-your-verse-in-cement-in-St-Pauls-sidewalk-poetry-contest?cid=examiner-email -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 00:56:13 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:56:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate Agno. A magnificent one-off. I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. At 08:30 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote: >But that's almost a little sad. The destiny of valuable innovation >(good=usable) is to be caught up in the mainline. It can't go on >outriding forever. >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robin Hamilton >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 8:05 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question > ><< >So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by >being assimilated into the tradition. > >> > >Yup. > ><< >An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition >is bad innovation? > >Finnegan > >> > >Not necessarily bad, just irrelevant. Good or bad simply don't come into it. > >The successful introduction of quantitative metrics into English >poetry, something that's been tried and retried virtually every >generation since Philip Sidney, might have been an excellent thing. >Problem is, it just never worked. > >If you continually have to reinvent the wheel, it probably had a >square rim in the first place. > >Robin >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Thu Feb 18 04:38:41 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:38:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's a year older and often been dissed but we love him Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002180138i1ac668acm748d14ad5f4bb2d@mail.gmail.com> Hey, Bob, People are talking about you on Chris's ---a lovely interview and comments, prompted by your birthday: http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/happy-birthday-bob-grumman/comment-page-1/#comment-87972 Best, Judy -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 18 04:52:09 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:52:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BFC33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Fair point, Mark -- my response was too sweeping, since there are occasional exceptions (but very occasional, I'd feel). To Smart, I'd add: Clough, Amours de Voyage -- only successful example of the use of Quantitative Metre in English ever. (Forget Longfellow; and the Elizabethans who mucked around with it simply showed it was effectively a dead-end.) Coleridge, Cristabel -- only example of Stress Metre after 1400 Francis Berry, Ghosts of Greenland, and Morant Bay -- ditto full alliterative metre after the Gawain Poet. (Auden's Age of Anxiety is catastrophic, though the form seems to manage to live in translations. Which is where I'd maybe count Pound's Canto 1) Then there's the weird case of the specific Sapphic Stanza, in both English (qualitative substitution) and Classic (strict quantitative) versions, which seems to exist quite independently of any other classical form, and traces from Sidney and other Elizabethans, through Watts and Couper, Southey, Canning, David Macbeth Moir (I kid you not), Clough (though his was a translation of an actual Sappho poem) and Pound, and still alive today, I'd guess. (I've used it myself, though only in translating Sappho.) But in each case, except for the Sapphic stanza, it's an example of a one-off writer or writing. Then there's the use of synthetic Scots in MacDiarmid -- absolutely brilliant in Sangshaw, Pennywheep, and The Drunk Man, but look at the wreckage of an entire generation of poets who tied to follow him in this. The only one who emerges intact is Robert Garrioch, and his work is in actual Edinburgh-and-surrounds speech, not Lallans. So the price we pay for The Drunk Man is twenty-five years of virtual desert in Scottish poetry. Worth it, but. Also maybe my whole point only holds for the period (in English? -- I can't really speak to other languages) between 1580 and 1900, when there was some sort of (metrical) consensus. After that, it's a entirely new ball game (or games). Maybe it will all shake down again, maybe it won't. Too early to tell -- a hundred years ain't all that long in the run of things, comes down to it. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate Agno. A magnificent one-off. I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. At 08:30 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote: But that's almost a little sad. The destiny of valuable innovation (good=usable) is to be caught up in the mainline. It can't go on outriding forever. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question << So you're saying, Robin, that successful 'innovation' is marked by being assimilated into the tradition. >> Yup. << An obdurate innovation that couldn't lodge itself in the tradition is bad innovation? Finnegan >> Not necessarily bad, just irrelevant. Good or bad simply don't come into it. The successful introduction of quantitative metrics into English poetry, something that's been tried and retried virtually every generation since Philip Sidney, might have been an excellent thing. Problem is, it just never worked. If you continually have to reinvent the wheel, it probably had a square rim in the first place. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 06:23:14 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:23:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E4BF C33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail -d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7D2322.30909@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's > Jubilate Agno. A magnificent one-off. I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative devices it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think what you say will help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. (I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever was innovative, I think because he never used any particular innovative device, in my opinion, but perhaps used various innovations in an innovative combination.) > I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, at any rate. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 06:24:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:24:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's a year older and often been dissed but we lovehim In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002180138i1ac668acm748d14ad5f4bb2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1002180138i1ac668acm748d14ad5f4bb2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7D2383.1010802@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Hey, Bob, > > People are talking about you on Chris's ---a lovely > interview and comments, prompted by your birthday: > http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/happy-birthday-bob-grumman/comment-page-1/#comment-87972 > > > Best, > > Judy Bah, my birthday was two weeks ago! But I'll take a look--thanks, Judy. (I should look at Chris's and other blogs more often.) --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 07:03:50 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:03:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8 .5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B7D2CA6.3030005@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Robin, concrete poetry (according to most definitions) has been used >> by lots of advertisers, for Pete's Sake. Can't be more accepted than >> that. A lot of visual artists make concrete poems, too--well-known, >> highly-paid ones. I think it highly unlikely that it will die, >> although its name may be lost as more and more people doing it call >> themselves visual poets rather than concrete poets. >> >> --Bob > > You mean like this, Bob? (Reposted from another list that both Bob > and I are on, so he'll be able to re-insert the name): > > << > A student came into my class last year wearing a tee-shirt that read > 'f c e k the Irish connection'. > > [Name Withheld for reasons of courtesy] Some will call that concrete poetry, Robin, but not I. It's a fun joke, and--I suppose--a poem, however feeble a poem. But it's infraverbal, not visual since everything of consequence it does is linguistic. And I count spaces as text (a space, in fact, is the 27th letter in my alphabet--the nulletter, probounced NUHL leh tuhr). > > (I hate to explain a joke, but Non-British SHAKSPERians may not know > that the clothes retailer 'French Connection' renamed itself 'French > Connection UK' a few years ago, solely to be able to use as its label > the abbreviation "f c u k", and so sell young people tee-shirts that > almost look rude, but can't be objected to. Oh, and you need to know > that Irish people say 'feck' instead of 'fuck'.) >>> > > What's in a name? Let's remember that the full line reads, "Romeo, > Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?" [note the punctuation] and doesn't > mean that Juliet is wondering just where her best beloved has got to. Ha, you know, Robin, I never realized that. I did understand the rest of the scene, though, I'm pretty sure. > > Traditionally yours, > > Robin > > {Hey, Bob, something you maybe don't know -- Name Withheld currently > teaches where I once taught. So the student in question must have > been at . R.} > > [[PS -- liked your last post there, incidentally. But Hardy says > we're not supposed to be nice to each other frontchannel <"us" being > any members of that list, rather than just Bob and me>, so I'll say it > here. R-Out]] Thanks. It wuz just common sense--against one of the many who thinks Shakespeare couldn't have had more than one motive for writing as he did. --Bob From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 09:01:39 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:01:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> *Very* helpful discussion so far... Catherine Daly's blog today -- http://cadaly.blogspot.com/2010/02/in-answer-to-amy-kings-query-about.html And Ron Silliman's -- http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2010/02/second-link-that-had-me-pondering-world.html Still seeking answers on my own blog (thanks to all who have sent along so far!) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/please-help/ Cheers, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 18 09:30:05 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:30:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7D2CA6.3030005@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109@nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8.5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><7AAE7A2884A24C329FF206378F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7D2CA6.3030005@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <2EACE616F1FD4B6DB4BA2D97143B3916@RobinLaptopPC> >> A student came into my class last year wearing a tee-shirt that read 'f c >> e k the Irish connection'. > ... > > Some will call that concrete poetry, Robin, but not I. It's a fun joke, > and--I suppose--a poem, however feeble a poem. But it's infraverbal, not > visual since everything of consequence it does is linguistic. And I count > spaces as text (a space, in fact, is the 27th letter in my alphabet--the > nulletter, probounced NUHL leh tuhr). Oh, C'mon Bob, you can't be serious, can you? It's a straight derivation from typewriter concrete, what Eddie Morgan (among others) were doing in the sixties (as opposed to typeset concrete -- is that the correct term? -- which was what IHF was doing.) It wears its ancestry on its sleeve. Or chest. H'm. I wonder if in that case if you'd class much of the stuff which nick-e melville does in _selections and dissections_ as also not-concrete-poetry? Would Geof Huth agree? >> What's in a name? Let's remember that the full line reads, "Romeo, >> Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?" [note the punctuation] and doesn't mean >> that Juliet is wondering just where her best beloved has got to. > Ha, you know, Robin, I never realized that. I did understand the rest of > the scene, though, I'm pretty sure. Actually, I only realised it myself recently. Weird. How could we both have missed it for so long? (It came up somewhere, maybe on ADS-l, where the context made me look at again and finally get it right. Just now realised that it must have been mispronounced by every actress I've ever seen or heard in the role of Juliet, otherwise it would have clicked sooner.) But it was only when I actually typed the above originally that I further realised that the meaning turns on the punctuation (confirmed by the context in the play). >> [[PS -- liked your last post there, incidentally. But Hardy says we're >> not supposed to be nice to each other frontchannel <"us" being any >> members of that list, rather than just Bob and me>, so I'll say it here. >> R-Out]] > Thanks. It wuz just common sense--against one of the many who thinks > Shakespeare couldn't have had more than one motive for writing as he did. Yo -- sometimes a cigar is only a cigar, Dr. Freud. There's more than a hint of the False Dilemma Fallacy in the "Shakespeare didn't care about his printed plays. He only wrote for money," argument Robin From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 10:25:09 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:25:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <4B7D2322.30909@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E4BF C33A3D9-3130-30C3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <3C9A91AC7EFA4C2ABAAB2B3B356A7DB5@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7E51058B0189-FC0-3CB8@webmail -d003.sysops.aol.com> <4B7D2322.30909@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: At 06:23 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's >>Jubilate Agno. A magnificent one-off. >I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but >am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative >devices it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think >what you say will help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. >(I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever >was innovative, I think because he never used any particular >innovative device, in my opinion, but perhaps used various >innovations in an innovative combination.) Jubilate Agno. A very long poem in two sections, each line of each written in the same syntactic pattern and beginning with the same words. In the first part each line appears to be a full sentence beginning "Rejoice in the Lamb," in the second each line appears to be the second half of a sentence beginning "For." If you put the first and second parts next to each other the lines read as long continuous lines. Lines of varied length, free verse. 1763. Utterly magnificent and quite mad. >>I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. Form is nothing but the extension of content and vice versa. Both the form of the poem and the about of the poem discovered in process. Open composition. >As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, >at any rate. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 18 10:50:48 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:50:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm teaching Ginsberg this week, "Howl" this afternoon. As the years pass I'm more and more struck by how powerful "Howl" is, how well it holds up. Right from the start Ginsberg consistently emphasized his links to tradition--reacting, in part, against the journalistic and academic shorthand that saw Beat work as simply rebellious, nihilistic, and hostile to traditional form. Ginsberg quite rightly emphasized that such attacks came from a too-narrow conception of form and ignored a lot of the great poetry of the past, including Smart, Blake, and the prophetic books of the Bible, not to mention Whitman. His letter to Eberhart detailing his formal moves in "Howl" is fascinating. In fact, Ginsberg's comments on form are always interesting. On 2/18/10 9:25 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > > At 06:23 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >> Mark Weiss wrote: >>> It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate >>> Agno. A magnificent one-off. >> I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but >> am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative devices >> it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think what you say will >> help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. >> (I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever was >> innovative, I think because he never used any particular innovative device, >> in my opinion, but perhaps used various innovations in an innovative >> combination.) > > Jubilate Agno. A very long poem in two sections, each line of each written in > the same syntactic pattern and beginning with the same words. In the first > part each line appears to be a full sentence beginning "Rejoice in the Lamb," > in the second each line appears to be the second half of a sentence beginning > "For." If you put the first and second parts next to each other the lines read > as long continuous lines. Lines of varied length, free verse. 1763. Utterly > magnificent and quite mad. > >>> I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. > > Form is nothing but the extension of content and vice versa. Both the form of > the poem and the about of the poem discovered in process. Open composition. > >> As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, at any >> rate. >> >> --Bob ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 11:12:13 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:12:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? Message-ID: You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and other sonnets* right here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Enjoy. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 11:58:20 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8 .5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><7AAE7A2884A24C329FF2063 78F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 11:58:38 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7C92E8 .5030407@nut-n-but.net> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <7AAE7A2884A24C329FF2063 78F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Tend not to be able to reproduce? At 11:58 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found pretty >vague) mentioned some controversy going on about "hybridism." What >is that? How could anyone be against it? > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 12:12:52 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:12:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Help - Poet Question In-Reply-To: <2EACE616F1FD4B6DB4BA2D97143B3916@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><4B7C8642.1090109 @nut-n-but.net><8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><4B7C92E8 .5030407@nut-n-but.net><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><7AAE7A2884A24C329FF2063 78F1EC49B@RobinLaptopPC><4B7D2CA6.3030005@nut-n-but.net> <2EACE616F1FD4B6DB4BA2D97143B3916@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B7D7514.5080502@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >>> A student came into my class last year wearing a tee-shirt that read >>> 'f c e k the Irish connection'. >> ... >> >> Some will call that concrete poetry, Robin, but not I. It's a fun >> joke, and--I suppose--a poem, however feeble a poem. But it's >> infraverbal, not visual since everything of consequence it does is >> linguistic. And I count spaces as text (a space, in fact, is the >> 27th letter in my alphabet--the nulletter, probounced NUHL leh tuhr). > > Oh, C'mon Bob, you can't be serious, can you? It's a straight > derivation from typewriter concrete, what Eddie Morgan (among others) > were doing in the sixties (as opposed to typeset concrete -- is that > the correct term? -- which was what IHF was doing.) It wears its > ancestry on its sleeve. Or chest. A lot of this stuff is called concrete poetry--but mistakenly, I think. Although "concrete poetry's" Official Definition has never been established. I define it as something textual whose concrete essence as typography or something else of a non-linguistic nature is as important aesthetically as what it says as verbal language. Most people in the field require concrete poetry to contain nothing but typography. There's nothing non-linguistic about "f c e k," so for me it's not concrete poetry. But I'm idiosyncratic. I go by reason--which makes me, in fact, sui generis. Now if you put ten instances of "f c e k" in a stack, you'd have a concrete poem. If you added a stanza explaining it was a company name. The thing is nothing without context. I wouldn't call it a poem, anyway: it's a joke. A joke only, since a text can be a joke and a poem, if it amuses and rhymes. . . . > > H'm. I wonder if in that case if you'd class much of the stuff which > nick-e melville does in _selections and dissections_ as also > not-concrete-poetry? Would Geof Huth agree? Geof and I don't agree on definitions. He thinks practically everything is visual poetry. I'm not sure what his definition of concrete poetry is. --Bob From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Feb 18 12:21:00 2010 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CC7ED5DFDB401C-1ECC-218B@webmail-m030.sysops.aol.com> Is there a link to this somewhere, David? -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 10:50 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal I'm teaching Ginsberg this week, "Howl" this afternoon. As the years pass I'm more and more struck by how powerful "Howl" is, how well it holds up. Right from the start Ginsberg consistently emphasized his links to tradition--reacting, in part, against the journalistic and academic shorthand that saw Beat work as simply rebellious, nihilistic, and hostile to traditional form. Ginsberg quite rightly emphasized that such attacks came from a too-narrow conception of form and ignored a lot of the great poetry of the past, including Smart, Blake, and the prophetic books of the Bible, not to mention Whitman. His letter to Eberhart detailing his formal moves in "Howl" is fascinating. In fact, Ginsberg's comments on form are always interesting. On 2/18/10 9:25 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: At 06:23 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Mark Weiss wrote: It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate Agno. A magnificent one-off. I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative devices it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think what you say will help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. (I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever was innovative, I think because he never used any particular innovative device, in my opinion, but perhaps used various innovations in an innovative combination.) Jubilate Agno. A very long poem in two sections, each line of each written in the same syntactic pattern and beginning with the same words. In the first part each line appears to be a full sentence beginning "Rejoice in the Lamb," in the second each line appears to be the second half of a sentence beginning "For." If you put the first and second parts next to each other the lines read as long continuous lines. Lines of varied length, free verse. 1763. Utterly magnificent and quite mad. I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. Form is nothing but the extension of content and vice versa. Both the form of the poem and the about of the poem discovered in process. Open composition. As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, at any rate. --Bob ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 12:42:33 2010 From: heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com (Heather June Gibbons) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found pretty vague) > mentioned some controversy going on about "hybridism." What is that? How > could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in the recent publication of *American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New Poetry*, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." --Heather -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 18 12:49:58 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:49:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Formal In-Reply-To: <8CC7ED5DFDB401C-1ECC-218B@webmail-m030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dunno for sure. I have it in Ann Charters' terrific anthology *Beat Down To Your Soul: What Was the Beat Generation?*. But here's a link to a Google Books page of Ginsberg letters that seems to have the text. http://books.google.com/books?id=yzfV6DvwBk8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=richard+ eberhart+letter+%22allen+ginsberg%22&source=bl&ots=X92PdC6jAP&sig=g0Z5WwfyVX rVYa-RfieVtAs5lLo&hl=en&ei=Jn19S8fWDZXDngeR-PHXBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=res ult&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=richard%20eberhart%20letter%20%22al len%20ginsberg%22&f=false On 2/18/10 11:21 AM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: > Is there a link to this somewhere, David? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 10:50 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal > > I'm teaching Ginsberg this week, "Howl" this afternoon. As the years pass I'm > more and more struck by how powerful "Howl" is, how well it holds up. > > Right from the start Ginsberg consistently emphasized his links to > tradition--reacting, in part, against the journalistic and academic shorthand > that saw Beat work as simply rebellious, nihilistic, and hostile to > traditional form. Ginsberg quite rightly emphasized that such attacks came > from a too-narrow conception of form and ignored a lot of the great poetry of > the past, including Smart, Blake, and the prophetic books of the Bible, not to > mention Whitman. > > His letter to Eberhart detailing his formal moves in "Howl" is fascinating. > In fact, Ginsberg's comments on form are always interesting. > > > On 2/18/10 9:25 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > >> >> At 06:23 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >>> Mark Weiss wrote: >>>> It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate >>>> Agno. A magnificent one-off. >>> I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but >>> am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative devices >>> it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think what you say will >>> help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. >>> (I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever was >>> innovative, I think because he never used any particular innovative device, >>> in my opinion, but perhaps used various innovations in an innovative >>> combination.) >> >> Jubilate Agno. A very long poem in two sections, each line of each written in >> the same syntactic pattern and beginning with the same words. In the first >> part each line appears to be a full sentence beginning "Rejoice in the Lamb," >> in the second each line appears to be the second half of a sentence beginning >> "For." If you put the first and second parts next to each other the lines >> read as long continuous lines. Lines of varied length, free verse. 1763. >> Utterly magnificent and quite mad. >> >>>> I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. >> >> Form is nothing but the extension of content and vice versa. Both the form of >> the poem and the about of the poem discovered in process. Open composition. >> >>> As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, at any >>> rate. >>> >>> --Bob > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 18 12:56:20 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:56:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ginsberg Formal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another excellent resource on Ginsberg is Lewis Hyde's book from U Michigan, *On the Poetry of Allen Ginsberg* (1984). That contains, for example, Ginsberg's liner notes to the first recording of "Howl," which are a nice concise summary of his early thinking about technique. But of course there's a mountain of Ginsberg material out there. On 2/18/10 11:49 AM, "David Graham" wrote: > Dunno for sure. I have it in Ann Charters' terrific anthology *Beat Down To > Your Soul: What Was the Beat Generation?*. But here's a link to a Google > Books page of Ginsberg letters that seems to have the text. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=yzfV6DvwBk8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=richard+eb > erhart+letter+%22allen+ginsberg%22&source=bl&ots=X92PdC6jAP&sig=g0Z5WwfyVXrVYa > -RfieVtAs5lLo&hl=en&ei=Jn19S8fWDZXDngeR-PHXBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&re > snum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=richard%20eberhart%20letter%20%22allen%20gi > nsberg%22&f=false > > > > > On 2/18/10 11:21 AM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: > >> Is there a link to this somewhere, David? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Graham >> To: NewPoetry >> Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 10:50 am >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal >> >> I'm teaching Ginsberg this week, "Howl" this afternoon. As the years pass >> I'm more and more struck by how powerful "Howl" is, how well it holds up. >> >> Right from the start Ginsberg consistently emphasized his links to >> tradition--reacting, in part, against the journalistic and academic shorthand >> that saw Beat work as simply rebellious, nihilistic, and hostile to >> traditional form. Ginsberg quite rightly emphasized that such attacks came >> from a too-narrow conception of form and ignored a lot of the great poetry of >> the past, including Smart, Blake, and the prophetic books of the Bible, not >> to mention Whitman. >> >> His letter to Eberhart detailing his formal moves in "Howl" is fascinating. >> In fact, Ginsberg's comments on form are always interesting. >> >> >> On 2/18/10 9:25 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: >> >>> >>> At 06:23 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>> It's also, I think, not completely accurate. Think of Kit Smart's Jubilate >>>>> Agno. A magnificent one-off. >>>> I've read but don't remember the poem. Probably have it somewhere but >>>> am too disorganized to find it. Mark, could you say what innovative >>>> devices it uses? Please don't take this as a challenge--I think what you >>>> say will help me improve my idea of what significant innovation is. >>>> (I'm currently uncertain, for instance, about whether Ashbery ever was >>>> innovative, I think because he never used any particular innovative device, >>>> in my opinion, but perhaps used various innovations in an innovative >>>> combination.) >>> >>> Jubilate Agno. A very long poem in two sections, each line of each written >>> in the same syntactic pattern and beginning with the same words. In the >>> first part each line appears to be a full sentence beginning "Rejoice in the >>> Lamb," in the second each line appears to be the second half of a sentence >>> beginning "For." If you put the first and second parts next to each other >>> the lines read as long continuous lines. Lines of varied length, free verse. >>> 1763. Utterly magnificent and quite mad. >>> >>>>> I call myself an experimental poet. Different way of conceiving the thing. >>> >>> Form is nothing but the extension of content and vice versa. Both the form >>> of the poem and the about of the poem discovered in process. Open >>> composition. >>> >>>> As usual, a definition of terms would be useful--for people like me, at any >>>> rate. >>>> >>>> --Bob >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/ >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 13:14:26 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:14:26 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude can be sniffed. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found pretty vague) > mentioned some controversy going on about "hybridism." ?What is that? ?How > could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 13:28:17 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:28:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> I'd be interested in hearing what folks see as the difference between work that is *sui generis* and what you are calling "innovative" and "experimental," though *sui generis* would, by definition, include characteristics described as innovative and/or experimental. Interesting, too, would be a comparison of the poetic lineage claimed by an experimental poet, another whose work is described as innovative, and one whose work is thought of as sui generis. * * *I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask who she claims as her poetic lineage.* *- Jim * On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found pretty > vague) > > mentioned some controversy going on about "hybridism." What is that? > How > > could anyone be against it? > > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 13:29:07 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these took me no time to write: THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS I squat over pebbles by the creek bed dry, hallucinating towns in evening silt, now summer?s gone. For every waitress, bartender, and steel worker, a bouquet of tulips. A lizard full of sun. For every banknote No, a bow-tied box of preserves. I?d Sunday haunt the person who sold your livelihoods down river, tell him how in his slippery sleep you live on rice cakes and pinto beans. And that you still write to make the smile?s face go from toddler to coal miner, from orphan to manager, from alone to penciled in, if only on the margins of this planet you steal from his daily bread. HUNTER I?m hunting them, the ones who don?t want to. Even doing well: one of them spasmed, one gritted teeth then rotated after me, my gavel, service of the fertile form, no matter the distance of the person in my face. I?m the guy who can sell you a car and take you to dinner, tear off your dress and promise you children. I?m a family man. I?m the man you wish you could be. Those who don?t want it haven?t known me at all, don?t know how work works, how I can make everything better than they ever imagined, how twilight bears down at the heels of progress, how to get you from A into D, artistry of one spot, one moment undone, I see the bull?s eye and never look back. That?s what it?s all about: my grit, your sound and me pounding everything out. That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine sputters. Best, Amy ________________________________ From: Chris Lott To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude can be sniffed. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 18 14:10:33 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] another go at Oxford prof of po Message-ID: <8CC7EE52D991D65-1E88-16F4@webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/after-a-cruelest-month-oxford-resumes-search-for-poetry-professor/ Oxford University opened nominations on Thursday for the position of professor of poetry, The Guardian reported, less than a year after embarrassing scandals caused one prominent poet to withdraw his candidacy and a second to resign shortly after -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 14:29:26 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:26 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. ?Why is everyone up in arms about? ?I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. ?I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. ?But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? ?I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? ?Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. ?Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. ?An epiphany thrown in now and then. ?Ugh. ?Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer?s gone.? For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun.? For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I?d Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans.? And that > > you still write to make > > the smile?s face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I?m hunting them, > > the ones who don?t want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I?m the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I?m a family man. > > I?m the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don?t want it > > haven?t known me at all, > > don?t know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull?s eye > > and never look back. > > That?s what it?s all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. ?I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." ?Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 14:58:13 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't get it. What are folks really reacting to? And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... ________________________________ From: Chris Lott To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer?s gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I?d Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile?s face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I?m hunting them, > > the ones who don?t want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I?m the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I?m a family man. > > I?m the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don?t want it > > haven?t known me at all, > > don?t know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull?s eye > > and never look back. > > That?s what it?s all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 15:07:54 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:07:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit to not understanding! At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly >effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place >"above." > >The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited >here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever >you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when >it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > >Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a >great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al >continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with >the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random >incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their >readers to. > >c > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: > > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and > then. Ugh. Here, these > > took me no time to write: > > > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > > > by the creek bed dry, > > > > hallucinating towns > > > > in evening silt, now > > > > summer's gone. For > > > > every waitress, bartender, > > > > and steel worker, > > > > a bouquet > > > > of tulips. A lizard full > > > > of sun. For every > > > > banknote No, > > > > a bow-tied box > > > > of preserves. > > > > I'd Sunday haunt > > > > the person who sold > > > > your livelihoods down > > > > river, tell him how > > > > in his slippery sleep > > > > you live on rice cakes > > > > and pinto beans. And that > > > > you still write to make > > > > the smile's face go > > > > from toddler to coal miner, > > > > from orphan to manager, > > > > from alone to penciled in, > > > > if only on the margins > > > > of this planet you steal > > > > from his daily bread. > > > > > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > > > the ones who don't want to. > > > > Even doing well: > > > > one of them spasmed, > > > > one gritted teeth > > > > then rotated after me, > > > > my gavel, service > > > > of the fertile form, > > > > no matter the distance > > > > of the person in my face. > > > > > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > > > you a car and take you > > > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > > > and promise you children. > > > > I'm a family man. > > > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > > > > > Those who don't want it > > > > haven't known me at all, > > > > don't know > > > > how work works, > > > > how I can make everything > > > > better than they ever imagined, > > > > how twilight bears down > > > > at the heels of progress, > > > > how to get you from A into D, > > > > artistry of one spot, > > > > one moment undone, > > > > I see the bull's eye > > > > and never look back. > > > > That's what it's all about: > > > > my grit, your sound > > > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > terminology > > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > > sputters. > > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Lott > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > > can be sniffed. > > > > c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 15:48:58 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:48:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B7DA7BA.3050206@nut-n-but.net> Heather June Gibbons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman > > wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found > pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about > "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary > school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in > the recent publication of _American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New > Poetry_, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's > introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees > as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen > Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." > > --Heather Thanks. I would have thought the term would have to cover visual poetry--ain't nuttin' more hybrid than that. I rather doubt the anthology you mention has anything like that in it, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 15:55:32 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:55:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7DA944.1060402@nut-n-but.net> amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? > I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to > Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much > more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of > Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of, but he won't define it. I believe he once wrote that he hoped someone else would. I can't get a grip on it except that it's not language poetry, whatever that's considered to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 15:58:58 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:58:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7DAA12.5010406@nut-n-but.net> Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 16:15:42 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7DAA12.5010406@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7DAA12.5010406@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 16:22:54 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:22:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7DAFAE.9050009@nut-n-but.net> > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell > is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in > a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what > grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... Seems to me that to begin to answer these questions, you're back to what is poetry. For the few who know what poetry is, the next step is to list the various things a poem can include, like subject matter, meter if any, metaphor if any. I may have a blind spot that makes me miss something obvious, but I think all poems consist of subject matter and techniques. If that's the case, then an innovation is simple a clearly new subject or a clearly new technique. I don't think a new subject very innovative but others, I suppose, do. Nor do I see how one could claim one new subject is better than another. As I was writing that, I did see how: opening poetry to the subject of something like science (if it had never been done before) would be more valuably innovative than opening it to the subject of pineapples (if it had never been done before). Passing thought: that Roethke's slugs and lichen were a new superior subject.. Others may have written poems about them, but he wrote about them at a new lyrical depth, he made them important in a way no one before him (to my knowledge) had. Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 16:23:14 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:23:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye > and > other sonnets* right > here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Enjoy. > > Hal > > "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 16:31:53 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7DB1C9.1060304@nut-n-but.net> > /I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd > do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the > knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one > poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask > who she claims as her poetic lineage./ > > /- Jim/ I think Bukowski is sui generis but not innovative. His literary lineage includes Williams, Henry Miller and Basho. Actually Bukowski /was/ sui generis. He's got too many imitators to be that, anymore. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 16:29:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:29:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] publication models In-Reply-To: <8CC7E06EC0828B1-5ABC-645@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> <8CC7E06EC0828B1-5ABC-645@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16@mail.gmail.com> What a disaster. I anyhow find James' reading quite objective. On the other hand it is quite gratifying to see that someone is willing to publish your manuscript and to invest time in doing it, if not money. Don't you think so? And if you do not do any readings? Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM, wrote: > When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the > different poetry publishing models. > If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost > in some other way, is that that much > different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll > probably spend nearly as > much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed > (foetry anyone). If you let a > small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really > relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... > being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on > their list will lose money. > Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, > the profit tide will turn. > But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. > Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then > selling them hand to > hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will > be sold. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Hamilton > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright > bribery (vanity presses). > > A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the > increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. > > I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back > on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose > work I admire is published. > > And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to > recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. > > Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, > and someone should do something about it. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > > they've accepted. > > > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > > differently. > > > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > > think. > > > > -- > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 16:34:56 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7DAFAE.9050009@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7DAFAE.9050009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <379095.30365.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think this last bit hits the nail on the head - it's subjective and depends on what *you* want innovation to do. Some agree with you on a subjective basis; promote the foundational tenants of that kind of innovation, argue for its value, etc. You can even found a school on that premise (Flarf, LangoPo, etc). You can also try to claim other poets as part of your coterie of innovative poets (Susan Howe told me long ago she is no LP; Jen Knox is the best Flarfist I've seen to date yet she is not a Flarf poet, ask any Flarfist, etc). If you can get enough people to use the identifiable terminology, then you've got a school of innovation like "Flarf", which is, in my subjective cursory view, a mix of the screaming satire of Sam Kinison, the wit of Richard Pryor (at its best), etc on poetry. The bag of tricks have been around long before those poets collected them, founded a private listserv, and declared themselves Flarfists. They got folks debating this "school" and voila, we use the term. Now we even try to fit others into that school, except one of the requirements, initially anyway, was that you had to be invited into the special private listserv... ramble ramble. So who gets to be innovative and what mechanisms enable them to rise to such status? Old fashioned book publication doesn't seem to be the only method now... is popularity/putting their names on my blog entry enough? ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 16:35:29 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <766635.27632.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ From: Anny Ballardini Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: You can find my new collection -- The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and >> >other sonnets right >here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 16:36:44 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:36:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] publication models In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16@mail.gmail.com> References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> <8CC7E06EC0828B1-5ABC-645@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <615053.50124.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> And you save trees that way too. From: Anny Ballardini Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 16:41:36 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with AWP--panel--survey Message-ID: <428204.69956.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Mary Lannon Hi folks, Christina and I only need about 12 more people to answer our survey. So if you can think of anyone else to take this survey, we would appreciate. Thanks for all your help! More information about the survey, including the link is below. Many thanks to all who have already taken our survey! Thanks also to those of you who had your students take our student survey. We so appreciate your input and your time! Christina Rau and I are presenting on the impact (if any) of demographics on college-level teaching of creative writing at AWP in April 2010. If you have taught creative writing at the college level, please take our short on-line survey by clicking on the following link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=yE4As0Gs5_2byAUQXjyWarKg_3d_3d Mary Mary Lannon PhD Instructor Nassau Community College _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Feb 18 16:44:22 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:44:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1ABC60C1972F4971A1EC48B23F428B41@win.louisiana.edu> There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) The more things change . . . etc. (On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more inclusive than the one by Kelly.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 17:00:47 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:00:47 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <346949.60343.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I wasn't clear enough-- *I* don't believe in the taint of the SoQ... I was surmising that this was the crux of Ron's argument. I don't buy the taint. I don't buy the term. I like poems across the spectrum or up and down the ladder. I don't buy Ron's argument. I think he's self-serving, unnecessarily divisive, and attempts to elevate his personal affinity to some kind of universal truth. At any rate it's non-productive. The reason *I* find the term(s) objectionable is that they are used as a club (in both senses of the term) to subjugate and denigrate poetry without regard to the poems. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:58 AM, amy king wrote: > It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my > "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of > higher "quality". ?Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, > but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who > like that type of work. ?And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes > only/or. ?I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and > why shouldn't I? ?I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable > (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such > notions. ?There's room for a lot, even within a?seemingly-contained > individual. ?I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at > stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: > ?one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use > their own label for that type of poem. ?We give the term power, not RS. ?The > "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. ?Quietude, itself, > doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. ?No school > members are the same, even Language Poets. ?So why the ongoing hullabaloo > over that SoQterm? ?Because RS deigned to put a name to it? ?I still on't > get it. ?What are folks really reacting to? > And innovative work? ?It's the new 'avant-garde'. ?Why? ?What the hell is > it? ?How is a poet innovative? ? That term also is thrown around in a > positive light but who decides who is most innovative? ?On what grounds? ?I > know you've all covered much of this debate already... > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. ?Why is everyone up in arms about? ?I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. ?I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. ?But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? ?I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? ?Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. ?Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. ?An epiphany thrown in now and then. ?Ugh. ?Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer?s gone.? For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun.? For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I?d Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans.? And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile?s face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I?m hunting them, >> >> the ones who don?t want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I?m the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I?m a family man. >> >> I?m the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don?t want it >> >> haven?t known me at all, >> >> don?t know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull?s eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That?s what it?s all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. ?I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." ?Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 17:01:05 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:01:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] publication models In-Reply-To: <615053.50124.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <380-22010221618555298@M2W137.mail2web.com> <01bf01caaf4d$0cd7c3d0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> <8CC7E06EC0828B1-5ABC-645@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16@mail.gmail.com> <615053.50124.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181401s4e71b722p67dc05e2bc5958b7@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I wanted to add that part, too. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:36 PM, amy king wrote: > And you save trees that way too. > * > * > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although > Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 17:02:19 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:02:19 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <4B7DA944.1060402@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7DA944.1060402@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of Yep. c From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 17:19:56 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:19:56 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really.? Why is everyone up in arms about?? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am.? I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work.? But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse?? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again?? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish.? Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together.? An epiphany thrown in now and then.? Ugh.? Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer?s gone.? For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun.? For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I?d Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans.? And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile?s face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I?m hunting them, >> >> the ones who don?t want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I?m the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I?m a family man. >> >> I?m the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don?t want it >> >> haven?t known me at all, >> >> don?t know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull?s eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That?s what it?s all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson.? I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf."? Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 17:28:20 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:28:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <1ABC60C1972F4971A1EC48B23F428B41@win.louisiana.edu> References: <1ABC60C1972F4971A1EC48B23F428B41@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Years ago I had a conversation with Robert about the book. That's not the way it worked. The two were in fact quite collegial, Leary suggesting people that Robert had overlooked and vice versa. At 04:44 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New >Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary >principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" >would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, >even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine >poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he >included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), >but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but >lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has >it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing >of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a >possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the >Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in >two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct >response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the >contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition >includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) > >The more things change . . . etc. > >(On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more >inclusive than the one by Kelly.) > >-----Original Message----- >From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss >Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert >Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the >situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets >and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to >universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and >Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and >teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the >first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of >the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, >it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage >even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have >improved since. > >Mark > >At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 18 17:54:47 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:54:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > > to not understanding! > >You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. > >One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame >for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy >poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and >sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap >epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream >poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers >maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. > >But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. > >What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to >their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all >must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. > >You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the >narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of > his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets >(unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to >think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to >desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does >certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence >of narrative. > >It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. >But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does >their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to >something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. > >c > > > > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > > "above." > > > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > > readers to. > > > > c > > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: > >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, > >> and > >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, > >> these > >> took me no time to write: > >> > >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I squat over pebbles > >> > >> by the creek bed dry, > >> > >> hallucinating towns > >> > >> in evening silt, now > >> > >> summer?s gone. For > >> > >> every waitress, bartender, > >> > >> and steel worker, > >> > >> a bouquet > >> > >> of tulips. A lizard full > >> > >> of sun. For every > >> > >> banknote No, > >> > >> a bow-tied box > >> > >> of preserves. > >> > >> I?d Sunday haunt > >> > >> the person who sold > >> > >> your livelihoods down > >> > >> river, tell him how > >> > >> in his slippery sleep > >> > >> you live on rice cakes > >> > >> and pinto beans. And that > >> > >> you still write to make > >> > >> the smile?s face go > >> > >> from toddler to coal miner, > >> > >> from orphan to manager, > >> > >> from alone to penciled in, > >> > >> if only on the margins > >> > >> of this planet you steal > >> > >> from his daily bread. > >> > >> > >> > >> HUNTER > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I?m hunting them, > >> > >> the ones who don?t want to. > >> > >> Even doing well: > >> > >> one of them spasmed, > >> > >> one gritted teeth > >> > >> then rotated after me, > >> > >> my gavel, service > >> > >> of the fertile form, > >> > >> no matter the distance > >> > >> of the person in my face. > >> > >> > >> > >> I?m the guy who can sell > >> > >> you a car and take you > >> > >> to dinner, tear off your dress > >> > >> and promise you children. > >> > >> I?m a family man. > >> > >> I?m the man you wish you could be. > >> > >> > >> > >> Those who don?t want it > >> > >> haven?t known me at all, > >> > >> don?t know > >> > >> how work works, > >> > >> how I can make everything > >> > >> better than they ever imagined, > >> > >> how twilight bears down > >> > >> at the heels of progress, > >> > >> how to get you from A into D, > >> > >> artistry of one spot, > >> > >> one moment undone, > >> > >> I see the bull?s eye > >> > >> and never look back. > >> > >> That?s what it?s all about: > >> > >> my grit, your sound > >> > >> and me pounding everything out. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > >> terminology > >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke > >> and > >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > >> sputters. > >> > >> Best, > >> Amy > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Chris Lott > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >> > >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > >> can be sniffed. > >> > >> c > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 18:29:01 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:29:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? In-Reply-To: <766635.27632.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0@mail.gmail.com> <766635.27632.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Amy. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 3:35 PM, amy king wrote: > Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! > Great works, > > Anny > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye >> and >> other sonnets* right >> here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 18 19:13:10 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:13:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> eI think 'mainstr -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer?s gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I?d Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile?s face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I?m hunting them, >> >> the ones who don?t want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I?m the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I?m a family man. >> >> I?m the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don?t want it >> >> haven?t known me at all, >> >> don?t know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull?s eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That?s what it?s all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 19:14:01 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:14:01 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, Mark, but saying "let's leave Ron aside" when discussing the original question I was responding to (re: the mini-furor about "hybridism") is like saying "let's talk about the Democratic party's rhetoric but leave Obama aside." The problem at hand *is* Ron and his relative multitude of followers (I suppose if we MUST leave him out, choose one of his acolytes that exist in human form mostly in the comments section of Silliman's blog). >From the sound of it, we don't actually disagree much, so I'll try to be as clear as possible: 1) I don't believe that the commonly implicit hierarchy of greeting card verse a From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:14:12 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <201002181948.o1IJmiat016921@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002181948.o1IJmiat016921@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. another go at Oxford prof of po (jforjames at aol.com) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) 4. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 6. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 9. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 10. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Anny Ballardini) 11. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 12. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 13. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:10:33 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] another go at Oxford prof of po To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <8CC7EE52D991D65-1E88-16F4 at webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/after-a-cruelest-month-oxford-resumes-search-for-poetry-professor/ Oxford University opened nominations on Thursday for the position of professor of poetry, The Guardian reported, less than a year after embarrassing scandals caused one prominent poet to withdraw his candidacy and a second to resign shortly after -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/f5699708/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:26 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer's gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I'd Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile's face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > the ones who don't want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I'm a family man. > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don't want it > > haven't known me at all, > > don't know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull's eye > > and never look back. > > That's what it's all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: amy king > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <346949.60343.qm at web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't get it. What are folks really reacting to? And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... ________________________________ From: Chris Lott > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer??Ts gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I??Td Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile??Ts face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I??Tm hunting them, > > the ones who don??Tt want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I??Tm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I??Tm a family man. > > I??Tm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don??Tt want it > > haven??Tt known me at all, > > don??Tt know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull??Ts eye > > and never look back. > > That??Ts what it??Ts all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/3af3035b/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:07:54 -0500 From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit to not understanding! At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly >effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place >"above." > >The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited >here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever >you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when >it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > >Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a >great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al >continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with >the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random >incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their >readers to. > >c > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: > > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and > then. Ugh. Here, these > > took me no time to write: > > > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > > > by the creek bed dry, > > > > hallucinating towns > > > > in evening silt, now > > > > summer's gone. For > > > > every waitress, bartender, > > > > and steel worker, > > > > a bouquet > > > > of tulips. A lizard full > > > > of sun. For every > > > > banknote No, > > > > a bow-tied box > > > > of preserves. > > > > I'd Sunday haunt > > > > the person who sold > > > > your livelihoods down > > > > river, tell him how > > > > in his slippery sleep > > > > you live on rice cakes > > > > and pinto beans. And that > > > > you still write to make > > > > the smile's face go > > > > from toddler to coal miner, > > > > from orphan to manager, > > > > from alone to penciled in, > > > > if only on the margins > > > > of this planet you steal > > > > from his daily bread. > > > > > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > > > the ones who don't want to. > > > > Even doing well: > > > > one of them spasmed, > > > > one gritted teeth > > > > then rotated after me, > > > > my gavel, service > > > > of the fertile form, > > > > no matter the distance > > > > of the person in my face. > > > > > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > > > you a car and take you > > > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > > > and promise you children. > > > > I'm a family man. > > > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > > > > > Those who don't want it > > > > haven't known me at all, > > > > don't know > > > > how work works, > > > > how I can make everything > > > > better than they ever imagined, > > > > how twilight bears down > > > > at the heels of progress, > > > > how to get you from A into D, > > > > artistry of one spot, > > > > one moment undone, > > > > I see the bull's eye > > > > and never look back. > > > > That's what it's all about: > > > > my grit, your sound > > > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > terminology > > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > > sputters. > > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Lott > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > > can be sniffed. > > > > c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/c30e670c/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:48:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4B7DA7BA.3050206 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Heather June Gibbons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman > >> wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found > pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about > "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary > school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in > the recent publication of _American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New > Poetry_, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's > introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees > as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen > Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." > > --Heather Thanks. I would have thought the term would have to cover visual poetry--ain't nuttin' more hybrid than that. I rather doubt the anthology you mention has anything like that in it, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/72bd9e9f/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:55:32 -0500 From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4B7DA944.1060402 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? > I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to > Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much > more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of > Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of, but he won't define it. I believe he once wrote that he hoped someone else would. I can't get a grip on it except that it's not language poetry, whatever that's considered to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/1372f227/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:58:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4B7DAA12.5010406 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:42 -0500 From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/8d666cf9/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:22:54 -0500 From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4B7DAFAE.9050009 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell > is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in > a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what > grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... Seems to me that to begin to answer these questions, you're back to what is poetry. For the few who know what poetry is, the next step is to list the various things a poem can include, like subject matter, meter if any, metaphor if any. I may have a blind spot that makes me miss something obvious, but I think all poems consist of subject matter and techniques. If that's the case, then an innovation is simple a clearly new subject or a clearly new technique. I don't think a new subject very innovative but others, I suppose, do. Nor do I see how one could claim one new subject is better than another. As I was writing that, I did see how: opening poetry to the subject of something like science (if it had never been done before) would be more valuably innovative than opening it to the subject of pineapples (if it had never been done before). Passing thought: that Roethke's slugs and lichen were a new superior subject.. Others may have written poems about them, but he wrote about them at a new lyrical depth, he made them important in a way no one before him (to my knowledge) had. Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/ef764fe6/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:23:14 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: halvard at gmail.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye > and > other sonnets* right > here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Enjoy. > > Hal > > "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/bac9d04a/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:53 -0500 From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4B7DB1C9.1060304 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > /I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd > do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the > knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one > poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask > who she claims as her poetic lineage./ > > /- Jim/ I think Bukowski is sui generis but not innovative. His literary lineage includes Williams, Henry Miller and Basho. Actually Bukowski /was/ sui generis. He's got too many imitators to be that, anymore. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/e63734b2/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:29:44 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What a disaster. I anyhow find James' reading quite objective. On the other hand it is quite gratifying to see that someone is willing to publish your manuscript and to invest time in doing it, if not money. Don't you think so? And if you do not do any readings? Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM, > wrote: > When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the > different poetry publishing models. > If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost > in some other way, is that that much > different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll > probably spend nearly as > much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed > (foetry anyone). If you let a > small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really > relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... > being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on > their list will lose money. > Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, > the profit tide will turn. > But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. > Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then > selling them hand to > hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will > be sold. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Hamilton > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright > bribery (vanity presses). > > A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the > increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. > > I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back > on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose > work I admire is published. > > And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to > recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. > > Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, > and someone should do something about it. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > > they've accepted. > > > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > > differently. > > > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > > think. > > > > -- > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a99518bc/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: amy king > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <379095.30365.qm at web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think this last bit hits the nail on the head - it's subjective and depends on what *you* want innovation to do. Some agree with you on a subjective basis; promote the foundational tenants of that kind of innovation, argue for its value, etc. You can even found a school on that premise (Flarf, LangoPo, etc). You can also try to claim other poets as part of your coterie of innovative poets (Susan Howe told me long ago she is no LP; Jen Knox is the best Flarfist I've seen to date yet she is not a Flarf poet, ask any Flarfist, etc). If you can get enough people to use the identifiable terminology, then you've got a school of innovation like "Flarf", which is, in my subjective cursory view, a mix of the screaming satire of Sam Kinison, the wit of Richard Pryor (at its best), etc on poetry. The bag of tricks have been around long before those poets collected them, founded a private listserv, and declared themselves Flarfists. They got folks debating this "school" and voila, we use the term. Now we even try to fit others into that school, except one of the requirements, initially anyway, was that you had to be invited into the special private listserv... ramble ramble. So who gets to be innovative and what mechanisms enable them to rise to such status? Old fashioned book publication doesn't seem to be the only method now... is popularity/putting their names on my blog entry enough? ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/d83b1ccf/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:14:37 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: <201002182142.o1ILgrat018050@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002182142.o1ILgrat018050@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:42 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Needing something to read around in? (amy king) 2. Re: publication models (amy king) 3. Help with AWP--panel--survey (amy king) 4. RE: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Skip Fox) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 6. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 9. RE: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 10. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 11. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Halvard Johnson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: amy king > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <766635.27632.qm at web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ From: Anny Ballardini Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: You can find my new collection -- The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and >> >other sonnets right >here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/80b6bc5c/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: amy king > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <615053.50124.qm at web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And you save trees that way too. From: Anny Ballardini Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/0980a750/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:36 -0800 (PST) From: amy king > Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with AWP--panel--survey To: UB Poetics discussion group >, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <428204.69956.qm at web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Mary Lannon Hi folks, Christina and I only need about 12 more people to answer our survey. So if you can think of anyone else to take this survey, we would appreciate. Thanks for all your help! More information about the survey, including the link is below. Many thanks to all who have already taken our survey! Thanks also to those of you who had your students take our student survey. We so appreciate your input and your time! Christina Rau and I are presenting on the impact (if any) of demographics on college-level teaching of creative writing at AWP in April 2010. If you have taught creative writing at the college level, please take our short on-line survey by clicking on the following link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=yE4As0Gs5_2byAUQXjyWarKg_3d_3d Mary Mary Lannon PhD Instructor Nassau Community College _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/90034846/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:44:22 -0600 From: "Skip Fox" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > Message-ID: <1ABC60C1972F4971A1EC48B23F428B41 at win.louisiana.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) The more things change . . . etc. (On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more inclusive than the one by Kelly.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/686bbbbd/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:00:47 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Perhaps I wasn't clear enough-- *I* don't believe in the taint of the SoQ... I was surmising that this was the crux of Ron's argument. I don't buy the taint. I don't buy the term. I like poems across the spectrum or up and down the ladder. I don't buy Ron's argument. I think he's self-serving, unnecessarily divisive, and attempts to elevate his personal affinity to some kind of universal truth. At any rate it's non-productive. The reason *I* find the term(s) objectionable is that they are used as a club (in both senses of the term) to subjugate and denigrate poetry without regard to the poems. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:58 AM, amy king > wrote: > It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my > "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of > higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, > but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who > like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes > only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and > why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable > (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such > notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained > individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at > stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: > one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use > their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The > "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, > doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school > members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo > over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't > get it. What are folks really reacting to? > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is > it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a > positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I > know you've all covered much of this debate already... > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer's gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I'd Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile's face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don't want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I'm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I'm a family man. >> >> I'm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don't want it >> >> haven't known me at all, >> >> don't know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull's eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That's what it's all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:01:05 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181401s4e71b722p67dc05e2bc5958b7 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, I wanted to add that part, too. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:36 PM, amy king > wrote: > And you save trees that way too. > * > * > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although > Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a7a9c9ab/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:02:19 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of Yep. c ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:19:56 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer's gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I'd Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile's face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don't want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I'm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I'm a family man. >> >> I'm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don't want it >> >> haven't known me at all, >> >> don't know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull's eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That's what it's all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:28:20 -0500 From: Mark Weiss > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Years ago I had a conversation with Robert about the book. That's not the way it worked. The two were in fact quite collegial, Leary suggesting people that Robert had overlooked and vice versa. At 04:44 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New >Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary >principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" >would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, >even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine >poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he >included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), >but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but >lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has >it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing >of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a >possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the >Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in >two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct >response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the >contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition >includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) > >The more things change . . . etc. > >(On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more >inclusive than the one by Kelly.) > >-----Original Message----- >From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss >Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert >Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the >situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets >and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to >universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and >Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and >teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the >first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of >the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, >it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage >even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have >improved since. > >Mark > >At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/be8a7d00/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:54:47 -0500 From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > > to not understanding! > >You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. > >One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame >for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy >poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and >sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap >epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream >poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers >maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. > >But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. > >What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to >their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all >must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. > >You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the >narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of > his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets >(unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to >think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to >desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does >certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence >of narrative. > >It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. >But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does >their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to >something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. > >c > > > > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > > "above." > > > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > > readers to. > > > > c > > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: > >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, > >> and > >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, > >> these > >> took me no time to write: > >> > >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I squat over pebbles > >> > >> by the creek bed dry, > >> > >> hallucinating towns > >> > >> in evening silt, now > >> > >> summer's gone. For > >> > >> every waitress, bartender, > >> > >> and steel worker, > >> > >> a bouquet > >> > >> of tulips. A lizard full > >> > >> of sun. For every > >> > >> banknote No, > >> > >> a bow-tied box > >> > >> of preserves. > >> > >> I'd Sunday haunt > >> > >> the person who sold > >> > >> your livelihoods down > >> > >> river, tell him how > >> > >> in his slippery sleep > >> > >> you live on rice cakes > >> > >> and pinto beans. And that > >> > >> you still write to make > >> > >> the smile's face go > >> > >> from toddler to coal miner, > >> > >> from orphan to manager, > >> > >> from alone to penciled in, > >> > >> if only on the margins > >> > >> of this planet you steal > >> > >> from his daily bread. > >> > >> > >> > >> HUNTER > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm hunting them, > >> > >> the ones who don't want to. > >> > >> Even doing well: > >> > >> one of them spasmed, > >> > >> one gritted teeth > >> > >> then rotated after me, > >> > >> my gavel, service > >> > >> of the fertile form, > >> > >> no matter the distance > >> > >> of the person in my face. > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm the guy who can sell > >> > >> you a car and take you > >> > >> to dinner, tear off your dress > >> > >> and promise you children. > >> > >> I'm a family man. > >> > >> I'm the man you wish you could be. > >> > >> > >> > >> Those who don't want it > >> > >> haven't known me at all, > >> > >> don't know > >> > >> how work works, > >> > >> how I can make everything > >> > >> better than they ever imagined, > >> > >> how twilight bears down > >> > >> at the heels of progress, > >> > >> how to get you from A into D, > >> > >> artistry of one spot, > >> > >> one moment undone, > >> > >> I see the bull's eye > >> > >> and never look back. > >> > >> That's what it's all about: > >> > >> my grit, your sound > >> > >> and me pounding everything out. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > >> terminology > >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke > >> and > >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > >> sputters. > >> > >> Best, > >> Amy > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Chris Lott > > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >> > >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > >> can be sniffed. > >> > >> c > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/9b4ca47c/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:29:01 -0600 From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you, Amy. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 3:35 PM, amy king > wrote: > Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! > Great works, > > Anny > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye >> and >> other sonnets* right >> here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/d96d5726/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:15:00 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:15:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <201002182228.o1IMS2at018546@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002182228.o1IMS2at018546@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Take me off your email list ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (jforjames at aol.com) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 (KAY PADILLA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:13:10 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6 at webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" eI think 'mainstr -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B??k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer??Ts gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I??Td Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile??Ts face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I??Tm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don??Tt want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I??Tm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I??Tm a family man. >> >> I??Tm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don??Tt want it >> >> haven??Tt known me at all, >> >> don??Tt know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull??Ts eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That??Ts what it??Ts all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/aa6c82de/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:14:01 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, Mark, but saying "let's leave Ron aside" when discussing the original question I was responding to (re: the mini-furor about "hybridism") is like saying "let's talk about the Democratic party's rhetoric but leave Obama aside." The problem at hand *is* Ron and his relative multitude of followers (I suppose if we MUST leave him out, choose one of his acolytes that exist in human form mostly in the comments section of Silliman's blog). >From the sound of it, we don't actually disagree much, so I'll try to be as clear as possible: 1) I don't believe that the commonly implicit hierarchy of greeting card verse a ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:12 -0700 From: "KAY PADILLA" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. another go at Oxford prof of po (jforjames at aol.com>) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) 4. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 6. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 9. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 10. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Anny Ballardini) 11. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 12. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 13. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:10:33 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com> Subject: [New-Poetry] another go at Oxford prof of po To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8CC7EE52D991D65-1E88-16F4 at webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/after-a-cruelest-month-oxford-resumes-search-for-poetry-professor/> Oxford University opened nominations on Thursday for the position of professor of poetry, The Guardian reported, less than a year after embarrassing scandals caused one prominent poet to withdraw his candidacy and a second to resign shortly after -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/f5699708/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:26 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer's gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I'd Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile's face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > the ones who don't want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I'm a family man. > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don't want it > > haven't known me at all, > > don't know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull's eye > > and never look back. > > That's what it's all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <346949.60343.qm at web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't get it. What are folks really reacting to? And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... ________________________________ From: Chris Lott >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer??Ts gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I??Td Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile??Ts face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I??Tm hunting them, > > the ones who don??Tt want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I??Tm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I??Tm a family man. > > I??Tm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don??Tt want it > > haven??Tt known me at all, > > don??Tt know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull??Ts eye > > and never look back. > > That??Ts what it??Ts all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/3af3035b/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:07:54 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit to not understanding! At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly >effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place >"above." > >The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited >here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever >you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when >it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > >Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a >great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al >continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with >the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random >incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their >readers to. > >c > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and > then. Ugh. Here, these > > took me no time to write: > > > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > > > by the creek bed dry, > > > > hallucinating towns > > > > in evening silt, now > > > > summer's gone. For > > > > every waitress, bartender, > > > > and steel worker, > > > > a bouquet > > > > of tulips. A lizard full > > > > of sun. For every > > > > banknote No, > > > > a bow-tied box > > > > of preserves. > > > > I'd Sunday haunt > > > > the person who sold > > > > your livelihoods down > > > > river, tell him how > > > > in his slippery sleep > > > > you live on rice cakes > > > > and pinto beans. And that > > > > you still write to make > > > > the smile's face go > > > > from toddler to coal miner, > > > > from orphan to manager, > > > > from alone to penciled in, > > > > if only on the margins > > > > of this planet you steal > > > > from his daily bread. > > > > > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > > > the ones who don't want to. > > > > Even doing well: > > > > one of them spasmed, > > > > one gritted teeth > > > > then rotated after me, > > > > my gavel, service > > > > of the fertile form, > > > > no matter the distance > > > > of the person in my face. > > > > > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > > > you a car and take you > > > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > > > and promise you children. > > > > I'm a family man. > > > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > > > > > Those who don't want it > > > > haven't known me at all, > > > > don't know > > > > how work works, > > > > how I can make everything > > > > better than they ever imagined, > > > > how twilight bears down > > > > at the heels of progress, > > > > how to get you from A into D, > > > > artistry of one spot, > > > > one moment undone, > > > > I see the bull's eye > > > > and never look back. > > > > That's what it's all about: > > > > my grit, your sound > > > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > terminology > > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > > sputters. > > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Lott >> > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > >> > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > > can be sniffed. > > > > c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/c30e670c/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:48:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DA7BA.3050206 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Heather June Gibbons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman > > >>> wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found > pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about > "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary > school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in > the recent publication of _American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New > Poetry_, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's > introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees > as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen > Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." > > --Heather Thanks. I would have thought the term would have to cover visual poetry--ain't nuttin' more hybrid than that. I rather doubt the anthology you mention has anything like that in it, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/72bd9e9f/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:55:32 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DA944.1060402 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? > I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to > Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much > more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of > Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of, but he won't define it. I believe he once wrote that he hoped someone else would. I can't get a grip on it except that it's not language poetry, whatever that's considered to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/1372f227/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:58:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DAA12.5010406 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:42 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/8d666cf9/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:22:54 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DAFAE.9050009 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell > is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in > a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what > grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... Seems to me that to begin to answer these questions, you're back to what is poetry. For the few who know what poetry is, the next step is to list the various things a poem can include, like subject matter, meter if any, metaphor if any. I may have a blind spot that makes me miss something obvious, but I think all poems consist of subject matter and techniques. If that's the case, then an innovation is simple a clearly new subject or a clearly new technique. I don't think a new subject very innovative but others, I suppose, do. Nor do I see how one could claim one new subject is better than another. As I was writing that, I did see how: opening poetry to the subject of something like science (if it had never been done before) would be more valuably innovative than opening it to the subject of pineapples (if it had never been done before). Passing thought: that Roethke's slugs and lichen were a new superior subject.. Others may have written poems about them, but he wrote about them at a new lyrical depth, he made them important in a way no one before him (to my knowledge) had. Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/ef764fe6/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:23:14 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: halvard at gmail.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: > You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye > and > other sonnets* right > here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions> > > Enjoy. > > Hal > > "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com> > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/bac9d04a/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:53 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DB1C9.1060304 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > /I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd > do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the > knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one > poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask > who she claims as her poetic lineage./ > > /- Jim/ I think Bukowski is sui generis but not innovative. His literary lineage includes Williams, Henry Miller and Basho. Actually Bukowski /was/ sui generis. He's got too many imitators to be that, anymore. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/e63734b2/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:29:44 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What a disaster. I anyhow find James' reading quite objective. On the other hand it is quite gratifying to see that someone is willing to publish your manuscript and to invest time in doing it, if not money. Don't you think so? And if you do not do any readings? Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM, >> wrote: > When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the > different poetry publishing models. > If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost > in some other way, is that that much > different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll > probably spend nearly as > much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed > (foetry anyone). If you let a > small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really > relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... > being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on > their list will lose money. > Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, > the profit tide will turn. > But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. > Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then > selling them hand to > hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will > be sold. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Hamilton >> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright > bribery (vanity presses). > > A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the > increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. > > I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back > on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose > work I admire is published. > > And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to > recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. > > Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, > and someone should do something about it. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" > > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > > they've accepted. > > > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > > differently. > > > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > > think. > > > > -- > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a99518bc/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <379095.30365.qm at web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think this last bit hits the nail on the head - it's subjective and depends on what *you* want innovation to do. Some agree with you on a subjective basis; promote the foundational tenants of that kind of innovation, argue for its value, etc. You can even found a school on that premise (Flarf, LangoPo, etc). You can also try to claim other poets as part of your coterie of innovative poets (Susan Howe told me long ago she is no LP; Jen Knox is the best Flarfist I've seen to date yet she is not a Flarf poet, ask any Flarfist, etc). If you can get enough people to use the identifiable terminology, then you've got a school of innovation like "Flarf", which is, in my subjective cursory view, a mix of the screaming satire of Sam Kinison, the wit of Richard Pryor (at its best), etc on poetry. The bag of tricks have been around long before those poets collected them, founded a private listserv, and declared themselves Flarfists. They got folks debating this "school" and voila, we use the term. Now we even try to fit others into that school, except one of the requirements, initially anyway, was that you had to be invited into the special private listserv... ramble ramble. So who gets to be innovative and what mechanisms enable them to rise to such status? Old fashioned book publication doesn't seem to be the only method now... is popularity/putting their names on my blog entry enough? ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/d83b1ccf/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a4c8181f/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:15:24 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:15:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <201002182228.o1IMSQat018582@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002182228.o1IMSQat018582@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Take me off your email list ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 34 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 (KAY PADILLA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:37 -0700 From: "KAY PADILLA" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:42 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Needing something to read around in? (amy king) 2. Re: publication models (amy king) 3. Help with AWP--panel--survey (amy king) 4. RE: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Skip Fox) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 6. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 9. RE: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 10. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 11. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Halvard Johnson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <766635.27632.qm at web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ From: Anny Ballardini Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: You can find my new collection -- The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and >> >other sonnets right >here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/80b6bc5c/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <615053.50124.qm at web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And you save trees that way too. From: Anny Ballardini Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/0980a750/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:41:36 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with AWP--panel--survey To: UB Poetics discussion group >>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <428204.69956.qm at web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Mary Lannon Hi folks, Christina and I only need about 12 more people to answer our survey. So if you can think of anyone else to take this survey, we would appreciate. Thanks for all your help! More information about the survey, including the link is below. Many thanks to all who have already taken our survey! Thanks also to those of you who had your students take our student survey. We so appreciate your input and your time! Christina Rau and I are presenting on the impact (if any) of demographics on college-level teaching of creative writing at AWP in April 2010. If you have taught creative writing at the college level, please take our short on-line survey by clicking on the following link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=yE4As0Gs5_2byAUQXjyWarKg_3d_3d> Mary Mary Lannon PhD Instructor Nassau Community College _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm> RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html> ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/90034846/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:44:22 -0600 From: "Skip Fox" >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" >> Message-ID: <1ABC60C1972F4971A1EC48B23F428B41 at win.louisiana.edu>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) The more things change . . . etc. (On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more inclusive than the one by Kelly.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/686bbbbd/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:00:47 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Perhaps I wasn't clear enough-- *I* don't believe in the taint of the SoQ... I was surmising that this was the crux of Ron's argument. I don't buy the taint. I don't buy the term. I like poems across the spectrum or up and down the ladder. I don't buy Ron's argument. I think he's self-serving, unnecessarily divisive, and attempts to elevate his personal affinity to some kind of universal truth. At any rate it's non-productive. The reason *I* find the term(s) objectionable is that they are used as a club (in both senses of the term) to subjugate and denigrate poetry without regard to the poems. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:58 AM, amy king >> wrote: > It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my > "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of > higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, > but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who > like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes > only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and > why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable > (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such > notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained > individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at > stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: > one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use > their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The > "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, > doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school > members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo > over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't > get it. What are folks really reacting to? > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is > it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a > positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I > know you've all covered much of this debate already... > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer's gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I'd Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile's face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don't want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I'm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I'm a family man. >> >> I'm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don't want it >> >> haven't known me at all, >> >> don't know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull's eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That's what it's all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:01:05 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181401s4e71b722p67dc05e2bc5958b7 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, I wanted to add that part, too. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:36 PM, amy king >> wrote: > And you save trees that way too. > * > * > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although > Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a7a9c9ab/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:02:19 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: > It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of Yep. c ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:19:56 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer's gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I'd Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile's face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don't want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I'm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I'm a family man. >> >> I'm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don't want it >> >> haven't known me at all, >> >> don't know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull's eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That's what it's all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:28:20 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Years ago I had a conversation with Robert about the book. That's not the way it worked. The two were in fact quite collegial, Leary suggesting people that Robert had overlooked and vice versa. At 04:44 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >There is one out now, American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New >Poetry published maybe last year, which works on the Kelly/Leary >principle. I can see why someone interested in the "innovative line" >would like the book, but the "academic" sections are pretty dead, >even by Leary's old standards. Robert Kelly, the way, is a fine >poet and generally had pretty interesting picks. The poets he >included one could have easily guessed (Allen's anthology plus), >but the selections were pure Kelly: not what one expected but >lovely. The two editors of Controversy (Contro-Versy the cover has >it) wrote essays (Postscripts) in the back, which urged a crossing >of borders in our appreciation and the book was meant to be a >possible beginning to the bridge between Allen's anthology and the >Robert Hall and Robert Pack's New Poets of England and America in >two editions. Donald Allen's New American Poetry was a direct >response to the first edition and the first clear volley in the >contemporary War of the Anthologies. (The Hall/Pack second edition >includes one poet from Allen's anthology: Denise Levertov.) > >The more things change . . . etc. > >(On closer look, the Leary Postscript in Controversy is more >inclusive than the one by Kelly.) > >-----Original Message----- >From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss >Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:16 PM >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert >Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the >situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets >and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to >universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and >Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and >teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the >first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of >the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, >it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage >even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have >improved since. > >Mark > >At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/be8a7d00/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:54:47 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: > > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > > to not understanding! > >You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. > >One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame >for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy >poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and >sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap >epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream >poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers >maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. > >But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. > >What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to >their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all >must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. > >You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the >narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of > his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets >(unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to >think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to >desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does >certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence >of narrative. > >It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. >But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does >their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to >something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. > >c > > > > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > > "above." > > > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > > readers to. > > > > c > > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, > >> and > >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, > >> these > >> took me no time to write: > >> > >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I squat over pebbles > >> > >> by the creek bed dry, > >> > >> hallucinating towns > >> > >> in evening silt, now > >> > >> summer's gone. For > >> > >> every waitress, bartender, > >> > >> and steel worker, > >> > >> a bouquet > >> > >> of tulips. A lizard full > >> > >> of sun. For every > >> > >> banknote No, > >> > >> a bow-tied box > >> > >> of preserves. > >> > >> I'd Sunday haunt > >> > >> the person who sold > >> > >> your livelihoods down > >> > >> river, tell him how > >> > >> in his slippery sleep > >> > >> you live on rice cakes > >> > >> and pinto beans. And that > >> > >> you still write to make > >> > >> the smile's face go > >> > >> from toddler to coal miner, > >> > >> from orphan to manager, > >> > >> from alone to penciled in, > >> > >> if only on the margins > >> > >> of this planet you steal > >> > >> from his daily bread. > >> > >> > >> > >> HUNTER > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm hunting them, > >> > >> the ones who don't want to. > >> > >> Even doing well: > >> > >> one of them spasmed, > >> > >> one gritted teeth > >> > >> then rotated after me, > >> > >> my gavel, service > >> > >> of the fertile form, > >> > >> no matter the distance > >> > >> of the person in my face. > >> > >> > >> > >> I'm the guy who can sell > >> > >> you a car and take you > >> > >> to dinner, tear off your dress > >> > >> and promise you children. > >> > >> I'm a family man. > >> > >> I'm the man you wish you could be. > >> > >> > >> > >> Those who don't want it > >> > >> haven't known me at all, > >> > >> don't know > >> > >> how work works, > >> > >> how I can make everything > >> > >> better than they ever imagined, > >> > >> how twilight bears down > >> > >> at the heels of progress, > >> > >> how to get you from A into D, > >> > >> artistry of one spot, > >> > >> one moment undone, > >> > >> I see the bull's eye > >> > >> and never look back. > >> > >> That's what it's all about: > >> > >> my grit, your sound > >> > >> and me pounding everything out. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > >> terminology > >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke > >> and > >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > >> sputters. > >> > >> Best, > >> Amy > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Chris Lott >> > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > >> > >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > >> can be sniffed. > >> > >> c > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/9b4ca47c/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:29:01 -0600 From: Halvard Johnson >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you, Amy. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com> http://www.hamiltonstone.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 3:35 PM, amy king >> wrote: > Yes, congratulations, Halvard!! Rockin' ~ > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > > Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! > Great works, > > Anny > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote>: > >> You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye >> and >> other sonnets* right >> here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/d96d5726/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 32 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:16:02 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:16:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <201002182228.o1IMS2at018546@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002182228.o1IMS2at018546@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Dog shit take me off your email list ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (jforjames at aol.com) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 (KAY PADILLA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:13:10 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6 at webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" eI think 'mainstr -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B??k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king > wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer??Ts gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I??Td Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile??Ts face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I??Tm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don??Tt want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I??Tm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I??Tm a family man. >> >> I??Tm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don??Tt want it >> >> haven??Tt known me at all, >> >> don??Tt know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull??Ts eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That??Ts what it??Ts all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> > >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/aa6c82de/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:14:01 -0900 From: Chris Lott > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, Mark, but saying "let's leave Ron aside" when discussing the original question I was responding to (re: the mini-furor about "hybridism") is like saying "let's talk about the Democratic party's rhetoric but leave Obama aside." The problem at hand *is* Ron and his relative multitude of followers (I suppose if we MUST leave him out, choose one of his acolytes that exist in human form mostly in the comments section of Silliman's blog). >From the sound of it, we don't actually disagree much, so I'll try to be as clear as possible: 1) I don't believe that the commonly implicit hierarchy of greeting card verse a ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:12 -0700 From: "KAY PADILLA" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. another go at Oxford prof of po (jforjames at aol.com>) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) 4. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 6. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 9. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 10. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Anny Ballardini) 11. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 12. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 13. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:10:33 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com> Subject: [New-Poetry] another go at Oxford prof of po To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8CC7EE52D991D65-1E88-16F4 at webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/after-a-cruelest-month-oxford-resumes-search-for-poetry-professor/> Oxford University opened nominations on Thursday for the position of professor of poetry, The Guardian reported, less than a year after embarrassing scandals caused one prominent poet to withdraw his candidacy and a second to resign shortly after -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/f5699708/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:26 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer's gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I'd Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile's face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > the ones who don't want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I'm a family man. > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don't want it > > haven't known me at all, > > don't know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull's eye > > and never look back. > > That's what it's all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <346949.60343.qm at web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't get it. What are folks really reacting to? And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... ________________________________ From: Chris Lott >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer??Ts gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I??Td Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile??Ts face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I??Tm hunting them, > > the ones who don??Tt want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I??Tm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I??Tm a family man. > > I??Tm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don??Tt want it > > haven??Tt known me at all, > > don??Tt know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull??Ts eye > > and never look back. > > That??Ts what it??Ts all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/3af3035b/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:07:54 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit to not understanding! At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly >effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place >"above." > >The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited >here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever >you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when >it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > >Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a >great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al >continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with >the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random >incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their >readers to. > >c > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: > > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and > then. Ugh. Here, these > > took me no time to write: > > > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > > > by the creek bed dry, > > > > hallucinating towns > > > > in evening silt, now > > > > summer's gone. For > > > > every waitress, bartender, > > > > and steel worker, > > > > a bouquet > > > > of tulips. A lizard full > > > > of sun. For every > > > > banknote No, > > > > a bow-tied box > > > > of preserves. > > > > I'd Sunday haunt > > > > the person who sold > > > > your livelihoods down > > > > river, tell him how > > > > in his slippery sleep > > > > you live on rice cakes > > > > and pinto beans. And that > > > > you still write to make > > > > the smile's face go > > > > from toddler to coal miner, > > > > from orphan to manager, > > > > from alone to penciled in, > > > > if only on the margins > > > > of this planet you steal > > > > from his daily bread. > > > > > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > > > the ones who don't want to. > > > > Even doing well: > > > > one of them spasmed, > > > > one gritted teeth > > > > then rotated after me, > > > > my gavel, service > > > > of the fertile form, > > > > no matter the distance > > > > of the person in my face. > > > > > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > > > you a car and take you > > > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > > > and promise you children. > > > > I'm a family man. > > > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > > > > > Those who don't want it > > > > haven't known me at all, > > > > don't know > > > > how work works, > > > > how I can make everything > > > > better than they ever imagined, > > > > how twilight bears down > > > > at the heels of progress, > > > > how to get you from A into D, > > > > artistry of one spot, > > > > one moment undone, > > > > I see the bull's eye > > > > and never look back. > > > > That's what it's all about: > > > > my grit, your sound > > > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > terminology > > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > > sputters. > > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Lott >> > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > >> > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > > can be sniffed. > > > > c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/c30e670c/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:48:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DA7BA.3050206 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Heather June Gibbons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman > > >>> wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found > pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about > "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary > school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in > the recent publication of _American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New > Poetry_, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's > introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees > as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen > Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." > > --Heather Thanks. I would have thought the term would have to cover visual poetry--ain't nuttin' more hybrid than that. I rather doubt the anthology you mention has anything like that in it, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/72bd9e9f/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:55:32 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DA944.1060402 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? > I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to > Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much > more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of > Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of, but he won't define it. I believe he once wrote that he hoped someone else would. I can't get a grip on it except that it's not language poetry, whatever that's considered to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/1372f227/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:58:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DAA12.5010406 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:42 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/8d666cf9/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:22:54 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DAFAE.9050009 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell > is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in > a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what > grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... Seems to me that to begin to answer these questions, you're back to what is poetry. For the few who know what poetry is, the next step is to list the various things a poem can include, like subject matter, meter if any, metaphor if any. I may have a blind spot that makes me miss something obvious, but I think all poems consist of subject matter and techniques. If that's the case, then an innovation is simple a clearly new subject or a clearly new technique. I don't think a new subject very innovative but others, I suppose, do. Nor do I see how one could claim one new subject is better than another. As I was writing that, I did see how: opening poetry to the subject of something like science (if it had never been done before) would be more valuably innovative than opening it to the subject of pineapples (if it had never been done before). Passing thought: that Roethke's slugs and lichen were a new superior subject.. Others may have written poems about them, but he wrote about them at a new lyrical depth, he made them important in a way no one before him (to my knowledge) had. Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/ef764fe6/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:23:14 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: halvard at gmail.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: > You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye > and > other sonnets* right > here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions> > > Enjoy. > > Hal > > "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com> > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/bac9d04a/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:53 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <4B7DB1C9.1060304 at nut-n-but.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > /I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd > do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the > knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one > poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask > who she claims as her poetic lineage./ > > /- Jim/ I think Bukowski is sui generis but not innovative. His literary lineage includes Williams, Henry Miller and Basho. Actually Bukowski /was/ sui generis. He's got too many imitators to be that, anymore. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/e63734b2/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:29:44 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What a disaster. I anyhow find James' reading quite objective. On the other hand it is quite gratifying to see that someone is willing to publish your manuscript and to invest time in doing it, if not money. Don't you think so? And if you do not do any readings? Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM, >> wrote: > When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the > different poetry publishing models. > If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost > in some other way, is that that much > different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll > probably spend nearly as > much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed > (foetry anyone). If you let a > small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really > relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... > being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on > their list will lose money. > Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, > the profit tide will turn. > But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. > Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then > selling them hand to > hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will > be sold. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Hamilton >> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright > bribery (vanity presses). > > A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the > increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. > > I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back > on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose > work I admire is published. > > And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to > recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. > > Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, > and someone should do something about it. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" > > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > > they've accepted. > > > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > > differently. > > > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > > think. > > > > -- > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a99518bc/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Message-ID: <379095.30365.qm at web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think this last bit hits the nail on the head - it's subjective and depends on what *you* want innovation to do. Some agree with you on a subjective basis; promote the foundational tenants of that kind of innovation, argue for its value, etc. You can even found a school on that premise (Flarf, LangoPo, etc). You can also try to claim other poets as part of your coterie of innovative poets (Susan Howe told me long ago she is no LP; Jen Knox is the best Flarfist I've seen to date yet she is not a Flarf poet, ask any Flarfist, etc). If you can get enough people to use the identifiable terminology, then you've got a school of innovation like "Flarf", which is, in my subjective cursory view, a mix of the screaming satire of Sam Kinison, the wit of Richard Pryor (at its best), etc on poetry. The bag of tricks have been around long before those poets collected them, founded a private listserv, and declared themselves Flarfists. They got folks debating this "school" and voila, we use the term. Now we even try to fit others into that school, except one of the requirements, initially anyway, was that you had to be invited into the special private listserv... ramble ramble. So who gets to be innovative and what mechanisms enable them to rise to such status? Old fashioned book publication doesn't seem to be the only method now... is popularity/putting their names on my blog entry enough? ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From snowdogs03 at msn.com Thu Feb 18 19:17:25 2010 From: snowdogs03 at msn.com (KAY PADILLA) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:17:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <201002182229.o1IMTuat018692@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002182229.o1IMTuat018692@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Take me off your email list ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 (KAY PADILLA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:16:02 -0700 From: "KAY PADILLA" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dog shit take me off your email list ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (jforjames at aol.com>) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 (KAY PADILLA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:13:10 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6 at webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" eI think 'mainstr -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B??k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >> wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer??Ts gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I??Td Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile??Ts face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I??Tm hunting them, >> >> the ones who don??Tt want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I??Tm the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I??Tm a family man. >> >> I??Tm the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don??Tt want it >> >> haven??Tt known me at all, >> >> don??Tt know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull??Ts eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That??Ts what it??Ts all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/aa6c82de/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:14:01 -0900 From: Chris Lott >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, Mark, but saying "let's leave Ron aside" when discussing the original question I was responding to (re: the mini-furor about "hybridism") is like saying "let's talk about the Democratic party's rhetoric but leave Obama aside." The problem at hand *is* Ron and his relative multitude of followers (I suppose if we MUST leave him out, choose one of his acolytes that exist in human form mostly in the comments section of Silliman's blog). >From the sound of it, we don't actually disagree much, so I'll try to be as clear as possible: 1) I don't believe that the commonly implicit hierarchy of greeting card verse a ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:14:12 -0700 From: "KAY PADILLA" >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 To: >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Take me off your email list. ----- Original Message ----- From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. another go at Oxford prof of po (jforjames at aol.com>>) 2. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Chris Lott) 3. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) 4. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 5. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 6. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 7. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 8. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Mark Weiss) 9. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 10. Re: Needing something to read around in? (Anny Ballardini) 11. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (Bob Grumman) 12. Re: publication models (Anny Ballardini) 13. Re: Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... (amy king) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:10:33 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com>> Subject: [New-Poetry] another go at Oxford prof of po To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> Message-ID: <8CC7EE52D991D65-1E88-16F4 at webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/after-a-cruelest-month-oxford-resumes-search-for-poetry-professor/>> Oxford University opened nominations on Thursday for the position of professor of poetry, The Guardian reported, less than a year after embarrassing scandals caused one prominent poet to withdraw his candidacy and a second to resign shortly after -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/f5699708/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:29:26 -0900 From: Chris Lott >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >>> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer's gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I'd Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile's face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > the ones who don't want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I'm a family man. > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don't want it > > haven't known me at all, > > don't know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull's eye > > and never look back. > > That's what it's all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >>> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >>> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <346949.60343.qm at web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It's funny how that scale is so often vertical; on some folks' scales, my "difficult" poetry lands on the bottom of that scale; the poems below are of higher "quality". Yes, writing those "SoQ" poems was much easier for me, but "in contrast" doesn't remove the experience of the poems for folks who like that type of work. And I don't feel the need to be someone who writes only/or. I also likely write some of that "boring stuff" you mention, and why shouldn't I? I might be accused of not being consistent or identifiable (i.e. That's an Amy King poem) in the end, but I'm not interested in such notions. There's room for a lot, even within a seemingly-contained individual. I think we agree on the scale issue; but what seems to be at stake in my original contention is how much folks invest in the term itself: one can wield it in a derogatory fashion or just use it as a label or use their own label for that type of poem. We give the term power, not RS. The "taint" of SoQ might be someone else's desire for SoQ. Quietude, itself, doesn't harbor some inherent negative or positive meaning. No school members are the same, even Language Poets. So why the ongoing hullabaloo over that SoQterm? Because RS deigned to put a name to it? I still on't get it. What are folks really reacting to? And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... ________________________________ From: Chris Lott >>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >>> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:29:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place "above." The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when it's more a flat, horizontal reality. Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their readers to. c On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >>> wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, these > took me no time to write: > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > by the creek bed dry, > > hallucinating towns > > in evening silt, now > > summer??Ts gone. For > > every waitress, bartender, > > and steel worker, > > a bouquet > > of tulips. A lizard full > > of sun. For every > > banknote No, > > a bow-tied box > > of preserves. > > I??Td Sunday haunt > > the person who sold > > your livelihoods down > > river, tell him how > > in his slippery sleep > > you live on rice cakes > > and pinto beans. And that > > you still write to make > > the smile??Ts face go > > from toddler to coal miner, > > from orphan to manager, > > from alone to penciled in, > > if only on the margins > > of this planet you steal > > from his daily bread. > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > I??Tm hunting them, > > the ones who don??Tt want to. > > Even doing well: > > one of them spasmed, > > one gritted teeth > > then rotated after me, > > my gavel, service > > of the fertile form, > > no matter the distance > > of the person in my face. > > > > I??Tm the guy who can sell > > you a car and take you > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > and promise you children. > > I??Tm a family man. > > I??Tm the man you wish you could be. > > > > Those who don??Tt want it > > haven??Tt known me at all, > > don??Tt know > > how work works, > > how I can make everything > > better than they ever imagined, > > how twilight bears down > > at the heels of progress, > > how to get you from A into D, > > artistry of one spot, > > one moment undone, > > I see the bull??Ts eye > > and never look back. > > That??Ts what it??Ts all about: > > my grit, your sound > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this terminology > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > sputters. > > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Chris Lott >>> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >>> > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > can be sniffed. > > c > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/3af3035b/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:07:54 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit to not understanding! At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly >effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place >"above." > >The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited >here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever >you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when >it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > >Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a >great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al >continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with >the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random >incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their >readers to. > >c > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king >>> wrote: > > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm > > playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, and > > folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my > > usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some > > invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around > > before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too > > simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible > > "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' > > holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and > then. Ugh. Here, these > > took me no time to write: > > > > THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS > > > > > > > > > > > > I squat over pebbles > > > > by the creek bed dry, > > > > hallucinating towns > > > > in evening silt, now > > > > summer's gone. For > > > > every waitress, bartender, > > > > and steel worker, > > > > a bouquet > > > > of tulips. A lizard full > > > > of sun. For every > > > > banknote No, > > > > a bow-tied box > > > > of preserves. > > > > I'd Sunday haunt > > > > the person who sold > > > > your livelihoods down > > > > river, tell him how > > > > in his slippery sleep > > > > you live on rice cakes > > > > and pinto beans. And that > > > > you still write to make > > > > the smile's face go > > > > from toddler to coal miner, > > > > from orphan to manager, > > > > from alone to penciled in, > > > > if only on the margins > > > > of this planet you steal > > > > from his daily bread. > > > > > > > > HUNTER > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hunting them, > > > > the ones who don't want to. > > > > Even doing well: > > > > one of them spasmed, > > > > one gritted teeth > > > > then rotated after me, > > > > my gavel, service > > > > of the fertile form, > > > > no matter the distance > > > > of the person in my face. > > > > > > > > I'm the guy who can sell > > > > you a car and take you > > > > to dinner, tear off your dress > > > > and promise you children. > > > > I'm a family man. > > > > I'm the man you wish you could be. > > > > > > > > Those who don't want it > > > > haven't known me at all, > > > > don't know > > > > how work works, > > > > how I can make everything > > > > better than they ever imagined, > > > > how twilight bears down > > > > at the heels of progress, > > > > how to get you from A into D, > > > > artistry of one spot, > > > > one moment undone, > > > > I see the bull's eye > > > > and never look back. > > > > That's what it's all about: > > > > my grit, your sound > > > > and me pounding everything out. > > > > > > > > > > > > That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this > terminology > > has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the > > enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke and > > mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine > > sputters. > > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Lott >>> > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > >>> > > Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > > > > Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with > > the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's > > definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude > > can be sniffed. > > > > c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland>> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/c30e670c/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:48:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <4B7DA7BA.3050206 at nut-n-but.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Heather June Gibbons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman > >> >>>> wrote: > > One of the comments following Ron's blog entry (which I found > pretty vague) mentioned some controversy going on about > "hybridism." What is that? How could anyone be against it? > > --Bob > > Pretty sure it's a reference to the contemporary > school/anti-school/trend/whatever of "Hybrid Poetry" as canonized in > the recent publication of _American Hybrid: A Norton Anthology of New > Poetry_, edited by Cole Swenson and David St. John. Swenson's > introduction describes the criteria for and features of what she sees > as this new(ish) strain, which is related to but distinct from Stephen > Burt's "Elliptical Poetry." > > --Heather Thanks. I would have thought the term would have to cover visual poetry--ain't nuttin' more hybrid than that. I rather doubt the anthology you mention has anything like that in it, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/72bd9e9f/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:55:32 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <4B7DA944.1060402 at nut-n-but.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" amy king wrote: > I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? > I'm playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to > Fbook, and folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much > more than my usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of > Quietude just some invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? It seems most to be a synonym for work that Ron doesn't think much of, but he won't define it. I believe he once wrote that he hoped someone else would. I can't get a grip on it except that it's not language poetry, whatever that's considered to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/1372f227/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:58:58 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <4B7DAA12.5010406 at nut-n-but.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? --Bob ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:42 -0500 From: Mark Weiss >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was done a long time ago. A Controversy of Poets, ed. Robert Kelly and Paris Leary (Doubleday 1965). Predates LANGUAGE, but the situation hasn't much changed--then it was the New American Poets and what we used to call Academic Verse (which wasn't a reference to universities). That when I mention Wieners, Schwerner, and Rothenberg to a woman who runs an important reading series and teaches poetry at a major school she responds "I've heard of the first two, never read them, and Rothenberg, oh yes, Technicians of the Sacred" would seem to be evidence. It's not that tastes differ, it's that very little effort is made to cross the border, to engage even minimally. That conversation was in November. Maybe things have improved since. Mark At 03:58 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Wouldn't an anthology of, say, a hundred poems, fifty of them from >the School of Quietude alternating with fifty Ron likes, be fun? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland>> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/8d666cf9/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:22:54 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <4B7DAFAE.9050009 at nut-n-but.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > And innovative work? It's the new 'avant-garde'. Why? What the hell > is it? How is a poet innovative? That term also is thrown around in > a positive light but who decides who is most innovative? On what > grounds? I know you've all covered much of this debate already... Seems to me that to begin to answer these questions, you're back to what is poetry. For the few who know what poetry is, the next step is to list the various things a poem can include, like subject matter, meter if any, metaphor if any. I may have a blind spot that makes me miss something obvious, but I think all poems consist of subject matter and techniques. If that's the case, then an innovation is simple a clearly new subject or a clearly new technique. I don't think a new subject very innovative but others, I suppose, do. Nor do I see how one could claim one new subject is better than another. As I was writing that, I did see how: opening poetry to the subject of something like science (if it had never been done before) would be more valuably innovative than opening it to the subject of pineapples (if it had never been done before). Passing thought: that Roethke's slugs and lichen were a new superior subject.. Others may have written poems about them, but he wrote about them at a new lyrical depth, he made them important in a way no one before him (to my knowledge) had. Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/ef764fe6/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:23:14 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Needing something to read around in? To: halvard at gmail.com>>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >>> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181323n18d8d180w9383bdac7df2f0d0 at mail.gmail.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Congratulations Halvard! Over two hundred pages of Sonnets! Great works, Anny On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Halvard Johnson >>> wrote: > You can find my new collection -- *The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye > and > other sonnets* right > here --> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions>> > > Enjoy. > > Hal > > "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com>> > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home>> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com>> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com>> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org>> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/bac9d04a/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:53 -0500 From: Bob Grumman >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <4B7DB1C9.1060304 at nut-n-but.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > /I'm knee-deep in the proofing stage of the spring SRR, otherwise I'd > do a little research into this line of inquiry. Maybe someone has the > knowledge at the ready, including a couple of examples. I know of one > poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask > who she claims as her poetic lineage./ > > /- Jim/ I think Bukowski is sui generis but not innovative. His literary lineage includes Williams, Henry Miller and Basho. Actually Bukowski /was/ sui generis. He's got too many imitators to be that, anymore. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/e63734b2/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:29:44 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] publication models To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >>> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002181329s10cb947cvf2474636a7a10f16 at mail.gmail.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What a disaster. I anyhow find James' reading quite objective. On the other hand it is quite gratifying to see that someone is willing to publish your manuscript and to invest time in doing it, if not money. Don't you think so? And if you do not do any readings? Halvard's choice to publish online, as the majority of writers do, although Hal has also books on the market, is maybe the best. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 PM, >>> wrote: > When you boil it down, I wonder how much difference there is between the > different poetry publishing models. > If someone puts up some money for 'presales' or defrays the publicaton cost > in some other way, is that that much > different from the other models: If you enter 100 ms. contests you'll > probably spend nearly as > much (factoring in time and effort) and that system if frightfully flawed > (foetry anyone). If you let a > small press publish your book without your financial help, you are really > relying on the kindness (and finances) of others... > being a sponge, so to speak. The vast majority of poetry books on > their list will lose money. > Especially first, second books...maybe by time one merits a New & Selected, > the profit tide will turn. > But that's probably 1 in 1000 poets. > Perhaps more dignity is just paying up and getting the book in print. Then > selling them hand to > hand at readings, where most of the copies that will actually be read will > be sold. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Hamilton >>> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>>> > Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > It's the difference between pay-to-play (poetry competitions) and outright > bribery (vanity presses). > > A problem is that in some ways all this is a secondary effect of the > increasing dilution of poetry outlets. The butter is spread too thin. > > I can see the problem, but I can't (yet) see the answer -- I've fallen back > on the principle that I like to be published in places where people whose > work I admire is published. > > And (as ever, when it comes to who to look out for) I pay attention to > recommendations from people whose judgement I trust. > > Maybe Philip Larkin was right after all -- there are simply too many poets, > and someone should do something about it. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" >> > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Advice > > > also, we all have different approaches: not only do we do different > > research (although duotrope is really great) and write different > > things with different audiences, we have different opinions, policies, > > standards, etc. about what it is to seek publication, why, etc. for > > example, some academics under "publish or perish" need peer reviewed > > publications, to win a prestigious prize, entry fee or no, or > > publications with issn numbers; some don't like online only journals, > > some only like online submissions to print journals, journals that > > pay, journals that give contributors two copies, etc. > > > > some of us would never, ever pay to enter a contest for a poem or > > group of poems. some of us rarely enter contests for manuscript > > publication. some people on another list where I participate have no > > problem with "required presales" or donations to a nonprofit press to > > ensure a book is printed; others of us do have a big problem with this > > -- even now it is an open secret that even some very well-regarded > > small presses require $600 - $2000 from an author to print the book > > they've accepted. > > > > I think of it sort of as if I had a band; I'm building a following by > > publishing individual poems in journals, meeting editors and other > > authors, researching and subscribing to journals and presses, writing > > reviews, doing readings, running series, etc. Others think about it > > differently. > > > > There are two big religious poem contests with no fee; one's in Spain > > -- something about the idea of "being +" and one's the Merton? I > > think. > > > > -- > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com>> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a99518bc/attachment-0001.html>> ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: amy king >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> Message-ID: <379095.30365.qm at web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think this last bit hits the nail on the head - it's subjective and depends on what *you* want innovation to do. Some agree with you on a subjective basis; promote the foundational tenants of that kind of innovation, argue for its value, etc. You can even found a school on that premise (Flarf, LangoPo, etc). You can also try to claim other poets as part of your coterie of innovative poets (Susan Howe told me long ago she is no LP; Jen Knox is the best Flarfist I've seen to date yet she is not a Flarf poet, ask any Flarfist, etc). If you can get enough people to use the identifiable terminology, then you've got a school of innovation like "Flarf", which is, in my subjective cursory view, a mix of the screaming satire of Sam Kinison, the wit of Richard Pryor (at its best), etc on poetry. The bag of tricks have been around long before those poets collected them, founded a private listserv, and declared themselves Flarfists. They got folks debating this "school" and voila, we use the term. Now we even try to fit others into that school, except one of the requirements, initially anyway, was that you had to be invited into the special private listserv... ramble ramble. So who gets to be innovative and what mechanisms enable them to rise to such status? Old fashioned book publication doesn't seem to be the only method now... is popularity/putting their names on my blog entry enough? ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman Innovative techniques seem to me easy enough to recognize, too. Hard in many cases to rate. I am egotistically fond of my own use of long division, and have described its values, particularly for resulting in poems that are all metaphor, and fuse Snow's two cultures as practically no other poems can, but about the only follower I've picked up is, ironically, a poet who composes collections of poems for children--which make money! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/d83b1ccf/attachment.html>> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 31 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/a4c8181f/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 33 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100218/6bfe5dc8/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 18 19:20:14 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:20:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7F1070D3218D-4050-37EE@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> New keyboard got me again... I was going to say that 'mainstream' works for me too. While School of Quietude seems unnecessarily pejorative and inflamatory. Note: 'School of Quietude' was coined by Edgar Allan Poe to deride some contemporaries. And in turn Emerson called Poe "the jingle man." What comes around goes around when it comes to petty name-calling. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... eI think 'mainstr -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... Look, let's leave Ron aside for the moment. You know what you tend to like. It would be convenient for the sake of discussion if it had a name, even though no name really covers a field. Accuracy is almost beside the point--I'm talking about really simple sloppy communication, something to refine when talking about a given poem/poet. Mainstream has always worked for me. So has experimental or open form. It's certainly true that most of what's written of any kind at any moment is crap, and with the proliferation of career-paths for poets we're almost buried in it. Perhaps so much a given that it's not worth discussing. I don't understand Elizabeth Bishop. Truly. At the insistence of a friend who does I read and reread her complete poetry (the one she authorized) several times. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why anyone would bother to read her. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest that my friend reads her with deep pleasure, though it bothers me that it bothers him that I don't get it. It's a matter of what one finds useful. One's range as a reader can certainly change, and can certainly expand, but no one will find everything that anyone else likes useful for her/himself. More light less heat might help. Best, Mark At 05:19 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Yup, no hierarchy as such. But my, aren't we judgmental about what we admit > to not understanding! You're mixing two things up here, and so am I. One is work I don't understand. I suppose I should take all the blame for that... but I won't, because I think there are as many poor, lazy poems in that set as there are in any other.. it's just laziness and sloppiness and lack of a different kind. Amy brought up cheap epiphanies and the like, which typify a lot of bad mainstream poetry... post-avant/etc (I don't care what one calls it) suffers maladies different in symptom but much the same in effect. But I'll take a fair share of the responsibility. What I object to more is the assumption by some that all must bow to their aesthetic, that anything different must be lesser, and that all must worship and praise the same things in the same ways. You may agree with the lack of hierarchy as such, but clearly the narrative of Ron accepts no such thing, and as a result nor do many of his followers. In that world it's not OK to like "quiet" poets (unless they happen to be one of those Ron likes). It's not OK to think that hybrid approaches can bear fruit (and have). It's not OK to desire poetry that isn't too elliptical, or in which the poet does certain kinds of work in creating, overtly or not, at least an essence of narrative. It doesn't bother me if someone thinks B?k is a genius, for example. But I certainly can understand why it's a relief to someone who does their due diligence in some of these poetries to come back to something that fulfills their aesthetic needs. c > > At 02:29 PM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > A step to one side of Hallmark, a step to another from similarly > effortless and meaningless (in a different manner) poetry you place > "above." > > The problem is the imaginary vertical scale of quality being posited > here, just like in Ron-Land, with hallmark at the bottom and whatever > you want to call the boring stuff Ron tends to like at the top, when > it's more a flat, horizontal reality. > > Your poems below aren't particularly good, but I imagine they'd be a > great relief to many people tired of the "poetry" that Ron et al > continually tout and whose knees are sore from trying to fit in with > the rest of the penitents kneeling in the pews of the random > incomprehensible where poets don't do the work but expect their > readers to. > > c > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:29 AM, amy king wrote: >> I don't get this taint, really. Why is everyone up in arms about? I'm >> playing naive, but maybe I am. I tried writing it, posted it to Fbook, >> and >> folks, of course, 'liked' and applauded it right away, much more than my >> usual "difficult" work. But isn't this school of Quietude just some >> invented synonym for a step up from Hallmark verse? I mean, it was around >> before RS put it in a school and gave it a fancy name, or am I being too >> simple again? Easily recognized effort at being obvious, accessible >> "message" with a minimal amount of flourish. Some sort of 'coherency' >> holding it together. An epiphany thrown in now and then. Ugh. Here, >> these >> took me no time to write: >> >> THE RISING SOUND OF THE SOLD-OUT CLASS >> >> >> >> >> >> I squat over pebbles >> >> by the creek bed dry, >> >> hallucinating towns >> >> in evening silt, now >> >> summer?s gone. For >> >> every waitress, bartender, >> >> and steel worker, >> >> a bouquet >> >> of tulips. A lizard full >> >> of sun. For every >> >> banknote No, >> >> a bow-tied box >> >> of preserves. >> >> I?d Sunday haunt >> >> the person who sold >> >> your livelihoods down >> >> river, tell him how >> >> in his slippery sleep >> >> you live on rice cakes >> >> and pinto beans. And that >> >> you still write to make >> >> the smile?s face go >> >> from toddler to coal miner, >> >> from orphan to manager, >> >> from alone to penciled in, >> >> if only on the margins >> >> of this planet you steal >> >> from his daily bread. >> >> >> >> HUNTER >> >> >> >> >> >> I?m hunting them, >> >> the ones who don?t want to. >> >> Even doing well: >> >> one of them spasmed, >> >> one gritted teeth >> >> then rotated after me, >> >> my gavel, service >> >> of the fertile form, >> >> no matter the distance >> >> of the person in my face. >> >> >> >> I?m the guy who can sell >> >> you a car and take you >> >> to dinner, tear off your dress >> >> and promise you children. >> >> I?m a family man. >> >> I?m the man you wish you could be. >> >> >> >> Those who don?t want it >> >> haven?t known me at all, >> >> don?t know >> >> how work works, >> >> how I can make everything >> >> better than they ever imagined, >> >> how twilight bears down >> >> at the heels of progress, >> >> how to get you from A into D, >> >> artistry of one spot, >> >> one moment undone, >> >> I see the bull?s eye >> >> and never look back. >> >> That?s what it?s all about: >> >> my grit, your sound >> >> and me pounding everything out. >> >> >> >> >> >> That last one would be Thompson. I just can't believe that this >> terminology >> has rec'd as much play and grief as it has, as though the name were the >> enemy, kind of like people getting all up in arms about "Flarf." Smoke >> and >> mirrors, but the bag o' tricks are still there once the fog machine >> sputters. >> >> Best, >> Amy >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Chris Lott >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 1:14:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... >> >> Not having read the comment, I assume this has something to do with >> the _American Hybrid_ anthology and poetry that is within Sillyman's >> definition of the range in which the taint of the School of Quietude >> can be sniffed. >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 19:27:36 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:27:36 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, sent by accident... Sorry, Mark, but saying "let's leave Ron aside" when discussing the original question I was responding to (re: the mini-furor about "hybridism") is like saying "let's talk about the Democratic party's rhetoric but leave Obama aside." The problem at hand *is* Ron and his relative multitude of followers (I suppose if we MUST leave him out, choose one of his acolytes that exist in human form mostly in the comments section of Silliman's blog). >From the sound of it, we don't actually disagree much, so I'll try to be as clear as possible: 1) I don't believe that the commonly implicit hierarchy of greeting card verse at the bottom and the post-avant (etc) at the top is meaningful, productive, or in any way accurate. Personally I'd characterize it as a network or a connective. 2) I guessed (and, as it happens, was correct) that the original question about what the "problem" of "hybrid" poetry was would come down to the fact that such an effort would be-- in Ron's mind (since Ron's blog is where the discussion in question was coming from)--a tainting of the good, post-avant poetry with the bad School of Quietude poetry. Indeed, that is the thrust of the argument. 3) I couldn't determine of Amy's question about the SoQ appellation was a kind of slap at all those poets Ron puts in that category (a far larger group than the Hallmark crowd), which I would object to, or an attempt to redefine the term in some way ("see, the REAL SoQ is...") which doesn't change what the negatively-charged term has come to mean. If one grants that the field being dismissed by the term is more than what will be found in the greeting card aisle at the local grocery, then I was trying to figure out if Amy meant that someone like Philip Levine was a Hallmark card poet (meaning she accepts the term as generally used) or not. I assumed not. 4) I mention specific poems and poets all the time here and on my blog, but I'll mention one obvious case in point: Jack Gilbert. I see no way so far that those who use the School of Quietude label can contort the term in such a way to meaningfully exclude Gilbert-- who has the Silliman and followers seal of approval-- without letting in a host of others. One of the reasons I find the term non-productive (at least) and destructive (usually). 5) I'm glad you're OK with your friend liking Bishop. I wish that same kind of openness characterizes most people who use terms like "School of Quietude" seriously. But it doesn't, just read through the comments in at Ron's post and follow links to those who are participating and the problem is self-evident. c From chris at chrislott.org Thu Feb 18 19:29:20 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:29:20 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <8CC7F1070D3218D-4050-37EE@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F1070D3218D-4050-37EE@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm fine with the term "mainstream." As I am with many of the finer gradations (and stranger examples-- that's you Bob :) that haven't been used to beat readers up in an attempt to "disabuse" them of their affections. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 18 19:43:56 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:43:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7DAA12.5010406@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B7DDECC.7080308@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > It was done a long time ago. Something like it has been done before, but what I'd like to see are poems Ron says are School of Quietude on every even-numbered page with poems Ron says are School of Ron or whatever school he opposes to the School of Quietude on every odd-numbered page. This way I might be more easily able to figure out what SofQ poems are. It would also make it easier to see if one school's poems seem better than the other's. I would add that I suspect the differences between the two sets of poems would be much greater than the differences between the cooked and raw poems fifty or however many years ago. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 18 19:49:31 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:49:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <8CC7F1070D3218D-4050-37EE@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F1070D3218D-4050-37EE@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7F1488572563-4850-4F94@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> I'm not surprised that I have sympathies with such a broad range of poetry: I'm surprised that everybody doesn't. ?Thom Gunn (I'm with him.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 19:54:02 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:54:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7F0F741643AD-4050-36A6@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: hey, I posted some thoughts on bad aspects of mainstream poetry on my blog http://cadaly.blogspot.com more on bad aspects of innvation and / or experimentation soon -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 18 20:39:08 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:39:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> Uh ... Who is this person called "Ron Silliman" that everyone keeps on talking about? I assumed it was just a made-up name ... I mean, "Silliman", for god's sake, who'd arrange to be born with a name like that? Are you sure you aren't all being taken in by a heteronymic construct? The Web, after all, what is truth, Pontius Pilate, photoshop, stuff like that ... who knows? Who can know, even? Ow, my brain hurts! I didn't say that. Actually, that's quite true, I *didn't say that, someone else did, in a different context, and I'm just repeating it. Now. In a different context. But it's true. It's true, but. Honest. I don't *care if you don't believe me, I know it's true, and my strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure. I really should google that and make sure I got the words of the quotation correct. And find out where it came from. Originally. Initially. Ever. Before I said it. If I did. Myself (i think) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lott" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Question - Innovation...Experimental... > Sorry, sent by accident... From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 18 21:29:54 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:29:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis In-Reply-To: <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:28 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > I know of one poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll have to ask who she claims as her poetic lineage. > > - Jim ============================ Sounds like Laura Jensen to me. I'd be interested in knowing who she claims as her main influences, in any case. Generally speaking, my interest in the definitional wars and turf disputes of contemporary poetry approaches zero as I grow older, but when I admire a given poet, I'm very happy to learn more about the affinities and affiliations of that poet--literary and otherwise. Another thing I notice as I age is that I can't stay awake during poetic arguments in which neither side seems particularly interested in or maybe even aware of any poetry except the very recent. I admire people with wide ranges of taste, but I'm interested as much or more in range over time as I am in range over aesthetic distance. Poets like Creeley, Rexroth, Ginsberg, Rich, Hall, Bly, Gunn, or Levertov, to pick a random crew of those I read a lot when I was coming up, were always exemplary to me in their deep historical grounding. They weren't just firing off blog posts about the latest issue of some journal or other filled with the latest wunderkind bards. It may be the case that the MFA revolution has produced a generation of poets without anything like the historical sense of academics like Donald Hall or autodidacts like Levertov. None of the above is aimed at or particularly involved in the current thread circling around the "school of quietude" label, a term which nonetheless strikes me as both pejorative and reductive in the extreme. When people talk about anthologies that include a range of styles, I always want to add to the mix Carruth's wonderful but now very dated *The Voice that Is Great Within Us* as well as Milton Klonsky's *Shake The Kaleidoscope*--which dates from 1973. There is nothing especially new about the poetry called "elliptical," "hybrid," and so forth, as far as I can tell, nor about anthologies displaying such inclusiveness. Likewise, I've not seen much that travels under the banner of "experimental" that advances much on what Stein was doing a century ago--only a problem if one's aesthetic privileges perpetual "advance," of course. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 21:32:31 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:32:31 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: there are too many people (like me) who are bad boats fans -- a first book, and her only one for so long -- for her to have been -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 18 21:40:29 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:40:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, the long silence of Laura Jensen appears to have begun in about 1985, when Shelter was published. I'm not aware of any book after that, anyway. Prior to that she published fairly regularly. Couple chaps before Bad Boats, and a few after. Books on my shelf include: Bad Boats (1977) Tapwater (1978) Memory (1982) Shelter (1985) Are there any other full-length collections? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > there are too many people (like me) who are bad boats fans -- a first > book, and her only one for so long -- for her to have been > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 22:22:49 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:22:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] So and So - This Sat. Feb. 20th @ 8 p.m. -- Bozicevic, Howe, and King Message-ID: <961479.43939.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> SO AND SO presents: Poetry by Ana Bo?i?evi? * Brian Howe * Amy King Designs by Brent Francese Saturday * February 20th * 8pm Morning Times * 10 E. Hargett Street * Raleigh, NC http://www.thesoandsoseries.blogspot.com/ Ana Bo?i?evi? emigrated to NYC in 1997. Stars of the Night Commute (Tarpaulin Sky Press, November 2009) is her first book of poems. Her fifth chapbook, Depth Hoar, will be published by Cinematheque Press in 2010. With Amy King, Ana co-curates The Stain of Poetry reading series in Brooklyn. She works at the Center for the Humanities of The Graduate Center, CUNY. For more, visit nightcommute.org. Brian Howe is a freelance writer, poet, and multimedia artist living in Durham, NC. His poems and sound art have appeared in many print and online journals, including Drunken Boat, Fascicle, Effing Magazine, McSweeneys.net, Octopus, Soft Targets, and Cannibal. He's the author of three chapbooks: Guitar Smash (3rdness Press), This is the Motherfucking Remix (with Marcus Slease, Scantily Clad), and Foreign Letter (Beard of Bees). His videos (with Ashley Howe) have screened at various NC festivals and showcases. He does a lot of his multimedia jams here: http://glossolalia-blacksail.blogspot.com/. Amy King's most recent book is Slaves to Do These Things (Blazevox), and forthcoming, I Want to Make You Safe (Litmus Press). She teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College. For information on the reading series Amy co-curates in Brooklyn, NY, please visit The Stain of Poetry: A Reading Series (http://stainofpoetry.com) and http://amyking.org for more. Brent Francese graduated with Bachelor's in Architecture in 2005 from NC State before the turning economy allowed him to explore a variety of creative of avenues. Using a strong graphic background, Brent currently designs logos, blogs and other stand alone graphic art pieces. When he's not working on graphic design or architecture he's playing drums with several local bands in the Raleigh, NC area. He lives with his wife Jessie and two dogs Tahoe and Denali. _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 19 06:59:45 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:59:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CC7E43F6B1D339-3130-239C@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><8CC7E48B3DD9A39- 3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com><60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC><70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLa ptopPC><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7E7D31.9090405@nut-n-but.net> Another thing I notice as I age is that I can't stay awake during poetic arguments in which neither side seems particularly interested in or maybe even aware of any poetry except a very small sliver of the very recent. Most visual poets don't care about what I call linguexpressive poetry (yes, my latest attempt to name poetry that is solely verbal, in distinction from plurexpressive poetry which is poetry significantly combining two or more expressive modalities) > None of the above is aimed at or particularly involved in the current > thread circling around the "school of quietude" label, a term which > nonetheless strikes me as both pejorative and reductive in the extreme. > I like the term! I truly think of myself as a School of Quietude participant--if we take the term to mean a kind of Lyrical Quiet. > When people talk about anthologies that include a range of styles, I > always want to add to the mix Carruth's wonderful but now very dated > *The Voice that Is Great Within Us* as well as Milton Klonsky's *Shake > The Kaleidoscope*--which dates from 1973. > Open Poetry is the only anthology I know of between 1950 and 2000 that actually covers a reasonably full range of the American(and, I think, British) poetry of the time. Naturally, it seems to have been close to completely unknown--I didn't find out about it until long after it was published. > There is nothing especially new about the poetry called "elliptical," > "hybrid," and so forth, as far as I can tell, nor about anthologies > displaying such inclusiveness. Likewise, I've not seen much that > travels under the banner of "experimental" that advances much on what > Stein was doing a century ago--only a problem if one's aesthetic > privileges perpetual "advance," of course. . . . The better current language poets are not doing automatic writing, so their work seems much better to me than hers. And, of course, you're forgetting what's going on in various pluraesthetic poetries. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 08:40:36 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:40:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Laura is one whose work I was thinking of as fitting the sui generis description. The books you name do indeed comprise the Jensen oeuvre. Her current interest is in family history/autobiography (most pieces appear in The Salt River Review), and an early chapbook ("The Story Makes Them Whole," Inland Boat/Porch Publications) reflects that interest. - Jim On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:40 PM, David Graham wrote: > Actually, the long silence of Laura Jensen appears to have begun in about > 1985, when Shelter was published. I'm not aware of any book after that, > anyway. Prior to that she published fairly regularly. Couple chaps before > Bad Boats, and a few after. Books on my shelf include: > > Bad Boats (1977) > Tapwater (1978) > Memory (1982) > Shelter (1985) > > Are there any other full-length collections? > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > > there are too many people (like me) who are bad boats fans -- a first > book, and her only one for so long -- for her to have been > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 08:48:09 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:48:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7E48B3DD9A39-3130-2B90@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <60F17961121B4FAF826FAD2004CD8391@RobinLaptopPC> <70B98D64E9B74FB8990FCA81651AEC8D@RobinLaptopPC> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002190548reae1e26y2f0fd331fe017493@mail.gmail.com> The idea of lineage vis a vis poetry that is sui generis occurred to me because of an assignment we had in Iowa as part of our thesis, and that was to compile a brief anthology of poems by poets we considered as our lineage and explain why in the preface. At the time, I listed Blake, Rimbaud, Yeats, Dickinson, Eliot, Berryman, and a couple of others as part of mine, though the list would not be exactly the same if I had to compile it now. Laura, who was also in the program at the time, would also have had that same assignment and I've asked her who she included in her anthology. I'll let you know. - Jim On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:29 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:28 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > *I know of one poet whose work is often described as sui generis and I'll > have to ask who she claims as her poetic lineage.* > > *- Jim* > > ============================ > > Sounds like Laura Jensen to me. I'd be interested in knowing who she > claims as her main influences, in any case. > > Generally speaking, my interest in the definitional wars and turf disputes > of contemporary poetry approaches zero as I grow older, but when I admire a > given poet, I'm very happy to learn more about the affinities and > affiliations of that poet--literary and otherwise. > > Another thing I notice as I age is that I can't stay awake during poetic > arguments in which neither side seems particularly interested in or maybe > even aware of any poetry except the very recent. I admire people with wide > ranges of taste, but I'm interested as much or more in range over time as I > am in range over aesthetic distance. Poets like Creeley, Rexroth, Ginsberg, > Rich, Hall, Bly, Gunn, or Levertov, to pick a random crew of those I read a > lot when I was coming up, were always exemplary to me in their deep > historical grounding. They weren't just firing off blog posts about the > latest issue of some journal or other filled with the latest wunderkind > bards. It may be the case that the MFA revolution has produced a generation > of poets without anything like the historical sense of academics like Donald > Hall or autodidacts like Levertov. > > None of the above is aimed at or particularly involved in the current > thread circling around the "school of quietude" label, a term which > nonetheless strikes me as both pejorative and reductive in the extreme. > > When people talk about anthologies that include a range of styles, I always > want to add to the mix Carruth's wonderful but now very dated *The Voice > that Is Great Within Us* as well as Milton Klonsky's *Shake The > Kaleidoscope*--which dates from 1973. > > There is nothing especially new about the poetry called "elliptical," > "hybrid," and so forth, as far as I can tell, nor about anthologies > displaying such inclusiveness. Likewise, I've not seen much that travels > under the banner of "experimental" that advances much on what Stein was > doing a century ago--only a problem if one's aesthetic privileges perpetual > "advance," of course. . . . > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Feb 19 08:49:46 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:49:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis Message-ID: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> That would be a good assignment for any poet. I was just thinking about how it would have changed over the years--in other words, what poets have remained as constant influences, which ones have fallen by the wayside. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Feb 19 08:59:54 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:59:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Remembering Lucille Clifton Message-ID: Article by Elizabeth Alexander: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2010/02/remembering-lucille-clifton.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 10:26:29 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:26:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: <648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As for me, I aspire to chop sui generis status. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:40 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > Yes, Laura is one whose work I was thinking of as fitting the sui generis > description. The books you name do indeed comprise the Jensen oeuvre. Her > current interest is in family history/autobiography (most pieces appear in > The Salt River Review), and an early chapbook ("The Story Makes Them Whole," > Inland Boat/Porch Publications) reflects that interest. > > - Jim > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:40 PM, David Graham wrote: > >> Actually, the long silence of Laura Jensen appears to have begun in about >> 1985, when Shelter was published. I'm not aware of any book after that, >> anyway. Prior to that she published fairly regularly. Couple chaps before >> Bad Boats, and a few after. Books on my shelf include: >> >> Bad Boats (1977) >> Tapwater (1978) >> Memory (1982) >> Shelter (1985) >> >> Are there any other full-length collections? >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> >> there are too many people (like me) who are bad boats fans -- a first >> book, and her only one for so long -- for her to have been >> >> -- >> All best, >> Catherine Daly >> c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 10:29:49 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:29:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of ?language attributes? in an unquestioning manner. As if these attributes were the rites of their religion? clear / vague sequential / disjunctive narrative / non-narrative syntactical / asyntactic closed / open controlled / loose understandable / difficult coherent / incoherent simple / complex grammatical / ungrammatical Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn?t seem to me that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent ?value? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don?t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, without becoming ?neutral?; or to carry forward the religion trope, they have not become ?agnostic? in face of their godhead language. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 10:41:31 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:41:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002190741i6a44bc54p5a5cbb1bcc9e7583@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > As for me, I aspire to chop sui generis status. and dim sum. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 10:44:18 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:44:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002190744p7beafd71w82544ec7d593a8b1@mail.gmail.com> "They are poles of attraction but don?t possess inherent goodness." Sounds like a couple I knew. - Jim On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:29 AM, wrote: > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > ?language attributes? in an unquestioning manner. As if these attributes > were the rites of their religion? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could > be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn?t seem to me that > either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither > side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent > ?value? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don?t possess > inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in > some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable > with one side or the other of the divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > without becoming ?neutral?; or to carry forward the religion trope, they > have not become ?agnostic? in face of their godhead language. > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 10:47:38 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:47:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com><648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC7F91FF9A9584-34F8-DE05@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> I'd settle for less generis portion. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:26 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen As for me, I aspire to chop sui generis status. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:40 AM, James Cervantes wrote: Yes, Laura is one whose work I was thinking of as fitting the sui generis description. The books you name do indeed comprise the Jensen oeuvre. Her current interest is in family history/autobiography (most pieces appear in The Salt River Review), and an early chapbook ("The Story Makes Them Whole," Inland Boat/Porch Publications) reflects that interest. - Jim On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:40 PM, David Graham wrote: Actually, the long silence of Laura Jensen appears to have begun in about 1985, when Shelter was published. I'm not aware of any book after that, anyway. Prior to that she published fairly regularly. Couple chaps before Bad Boats, and a few after. Books on my shelf include: Bad Boats (1977) Tapwater (1978) Memory (1982) Shelter (1985) Are there any other full-length collections? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 18, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: there are too many people (like me) who are bad boats fans -- a first book, and her only one for so long -- for her to have been -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 19 11:12:30 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:12:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. I know of no one who tries write incoherently. Best, Mark At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >One of the things I like to call attention to is >how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to >be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of >???language attributes??? in an unquestioning >manner. As if these attributes were the rites of their religion > >clear / vague >sequential / disjunctive >narrative / non-narrative >syntactical / asyntactic >closed / open >controlled / loose >understandable / difficult >coherent / incoherent >simple / complex >grammatical / ungrammatical > >Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a >sample and other words could be used to >respresent the competing attributes, but when >you look at the dialectic of these common >language attributes, it doesn???t seem to me >that either side of the divide deserves such >unswerving adoration. And neither side of any >set of attributes really can claim any >objective/inherent ???value??? over the other >side. They are poles of attraction but don???t >possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more >a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, >learned practice that makes one (as poet or >reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. > >Certain poets have successfully slipped back and >forth between these poles to varying degrees in >certain poems, or throughout the body of their >work, without becoming ???neutral???; or to >carry forward the religion trope, they have not >become ???agnostic??? in face of their godhead language. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Fri Feb 19 11:24:50 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:24:50 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 6:29 AM, wrote: > when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn?t seem to me that > either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither > side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent > ?value? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don?t possess > inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in > some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable > with one side or the other of the divide. Between that and the Thom Gunn quote, I think you've pretty much covered it all. c From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Fri Feb 19 11:32:06 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:32:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <020901cab181$13d58ba0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> "I know of no one who tries write incoherently." But many who, seemingly, achieve it. Al Schirmacher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri Feb 19 11:38:28 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:38:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <020901cab181$13d58ba0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <020901cab181$13d58ba0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002190838n69098661wcaaac3714a0d2370@mail.gmail.com> ;-) Judy On 19 February 2010 11:32, Pastor Al Schirmacher < pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net> wrote: > "I know of no one who tries write incoherently." > > But many who, seemingly, achieve it. > > Al Schirmacher > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 11:39:07 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:39:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but verging toward that state in many places in the writing. I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly dismay. Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. I know of no one who tries write incoherently. Best, Mark At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of ???language attributes??? in an unquestioning manner. As if these attributes were the rites of their religion? clear / vague sequential / disjunctive narrative / non-narrative syntactical / asyntactic closed / open controlled / loose understandable / difficult coherent / incoherent simple / complex grammatical / ungrammatical Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???t seem to me that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent ???value??? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don???t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, without becoming ???neutral???; or to carry forward the religion trope, they have not become ???agnostic??? in face of their godhead language. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 11:43:15 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:43:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Jensen In-Reply-To: <648208b61002190741i6a44bc54p5a5cbb1bcc9e7583@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <648208b61002181028i757865ebs52e52637381f59b6@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002190540n41db1020pf65c33457764a0a6@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002190741i6a44bc54p5a5cbb1bcc9e7583@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sez without going. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:41 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> As for me, I aspire to chop sui generis status. > > > and dim sum. > > > -- Jim > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 19 11:59:00 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:59:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification. One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." Best, Mark At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen >to represent the competing attributes; one could >substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And >I'm exactly suggesting that certain writers are >trying to write toward one pole or another, but >rather one could say that certain poets are >comfortable with a strong measure of incoherence >in their work. The pole itself would be the >perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random >collision of words that cohere, and that is >pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an >language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? > >However I think some earliest language poets did >try to write incoherently. Locally we have poet >Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or >seemingly so) strings of words and phrases that >are coherent only by accident or by the >inevitable associations each of us >idiosyncratically may draw from words and >phrases as they pass through our minds. Not >perfect incoherence, but verging toward that >state in many places in the writing. > >I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, >"It's all right to be difficult, but you can't >be impossible." That is probably the sentiment >of all poets except for a very few are entirely >comfortable with utter readerly dismay. > >Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views >Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > >It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > >I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>One of the things I like to call attention to >>is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem >>to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain >>set of ??????language attributes???? in an >>unquestioning manner. As As if these attributes >>were the rites of their religion >> >>clear / vague >>sequential / disjunctive >>narrative / non-narrative >>syntactical / asyntactic >>closed / open >>controlled / loose >>understandable / difficult >>coherent / incoherent >>simple / complex >>grammatical / ungrammatical >> >>Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a >>sample and other words could be used to >>respresent the competing attributes, but when >>you look at the dialectic of these common >>language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to >>me that either side of the divide deserves such >>unswerving adoration. And neither side of any >>set of attributes really can claim any >>objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the >>other side. They are poles of attraction but >>don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then >>becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in >>some cases, learned practice that makes one (as >>poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. >> >>Certain poets have successfully slipped back >>and forth between these poles to varying >>degrees in certain poems, or throughout the >>body of their work, without becoming >>????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the >>religion trope, they have not become >>??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead languagguage. >>Finnegan >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Fri Feb 19 12:09:45 2010 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: open mike In-Reply-To: <201002161700.o1GH05Au002992@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <497565.5862.qm@web45613.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> For a bit over a decade (1998-2008) I was the co-cordinator of the Larry's Poetry Forum. We would have a regionally recognized or nationally known author read for 2 twenty minute sets followed by an open mike of 12 readers, 2 poems or five minutes each. The series is still running, longest in Ohio, think its 28 (maybe 29) years now. Our open mikes were often fabulous, not to say there weren't horrible moments, but if the featured poet was well esteemed other great poets would read in the open. The key was control of the space. 2 bar napkin poems never killed anyone to hear. Often people would read other poets if not particularly willing to inflict their work on others. One of the featured readers was booed off the stage for reading fiction. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 12:11:54 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:11:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: no need to work blind! he's got such a huge body of work -- some of it is online, and he's been a publisher so long, you can see his editorial opinions in his selections, too On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Thanks for the clarification. > > One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries > of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put > two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops > perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because > we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just > poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between > order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. > What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick > (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of > experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate > extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what > he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole > lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean > when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the > limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he > would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, > means by "poem." > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing > attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm > exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole > or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with > a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the > perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that > cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an > language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? > > However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. > Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly > so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by > the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words > and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but > verging toward that state in many places in the writing. > > I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be > difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of > all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly > dismay. > > Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set > of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these > attributes were the rites of their religion? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed? / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be > used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me > that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And > neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any > objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles > of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes > more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that > makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the > divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion > trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead > languagguage. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 19 12:15:03 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:15:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Got you, Catherine. I was really responding to Jim's response to the poems, not the poems themselves. I could have been talking about Poet X. At 12:11 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >no need to work blind! he's got such a huge body of work -- some of >it is online, and he's been a publisher so long, you can see his >editorial opinions in his selections, too > >On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Thanks for the clarification. > > > > One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries > > of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put > > two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops > > perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because > > we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just > > poets, try to work the border between verbal > and non- or pre-verbal, between > > order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. > > What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick > > (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of > > experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate > > extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what > > he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) > one would have to suspend a whole > > lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean > > when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the > > limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he > > would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, > > means by "poem." > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > > > Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing > > attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm > > exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole > > or another, but rather one could say that > certain poets are comfortable with > > a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the > > perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that > > cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an > > language. How 'negatively capable' can on be > as poet or as a reader of poem? > > > > However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. > > Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his > work is often random (or seemingly > > so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by > > the inevitable associations each of us > idiosyncratically may draw from words > > and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but > > verging toward that state in many places in the writing. > > > > I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be > > difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of > > all poets except for a very few are entirely > comfortable with utter readerly > > dismay. > > > > Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] > > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > > > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > > > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set > > of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > > > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > > > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > > ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these > > attributes were the rites of their religion > > > > clear / vague > > sequential / disjunctive > > narrative / non-narrative > > syntactical / asyntactic > > closed / open > > controlled / loose > > understandable / difficult > > coherent / incoherent > > simple / complex > > grammatical / ungrammatical > > > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a > sample and other words could be > > used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me > > that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And > > neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any > > objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles > > of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes > > more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that > > makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the > > divide. > > > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > > without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion > > trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead > > languagguage. > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 12:15:45 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:15:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Dorothy Porter of Australia, "A ravenous heart" Message-ID: <8CC7F9E4F043063-8BD0-B6E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/books/a-ravenous-heart/2010/02/19/1266082347892.html I own a number of translations of Sappho. My favourite has remained the Shambhala Pocket Classic by Mary Barnard. It fits in the palm of my hand, and I have tucked it lovingly into my backpack for most of my travels. There are few joys equal to reading a Sappho fragment - and that's mostly what they are - first thing in the morning. The poems, in these lovely and distilled translations by Barnard, jump across the gap of more than 2500 years and feel quiveringly fresh. No poet embodies Ezra Pound's dictum ''Only emotion endures'' like Sappho. She feeds you ambrosial honey one minute, bitter bilious heartbreak the next. http://australia.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=668 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 12:31:05 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:31:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sui generis In-Reply-To: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> Message-ID: Dan Halpern's version of this -- which I have stolen for people taking their first poetry workshop who have access to lots of paper -- is to make an anthology of 10 LIVING poets you like. It is not at all as easy as listing "influences" which choices change depending on who the poet is trying to please. So everybody ends up with about a standard-sized anthology of supposedly what they are reading now. In the course in 1989, three or four people -- admittedly grad students not taking their first course -- included Elizabeth Bishop even though she was dead. In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:49 AM, wrote: > That would be a good assignment for any poet. I was just thinking about how > it would have changed over the years--in other words, what poets have > remained as constant influences, which ones have fallen by the wayside. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 12:41:16 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:41:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com><8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist for sure, the poem/piece as rendered questions the very genre/category (family-resemblance v. the milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo Ball...his stuff is glossolalia like. Here is a link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, that Marie Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem "Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's Believe It or Not... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion Thanks for the clarification. One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." Best, Mark At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but verging toward that state in many places in the writing. I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly dismay. Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. I know of no one who tries write incoherently. Best, Mark At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these attributes were the rites of their religion? clear / vague sequential / disjunctive narrative / non-narrative syntactical / asyntactic closed / open controlled / loose understandable / difficult coherent / incoherent simple / complex grammatical / ungrammatical Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead languagguage. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 12:59:07 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:59:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Sticky rice and non-sticky rice both fit the same bowl. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Thanks for the clarification. > > One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries > of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put > two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops > perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because > we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just > poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between > order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. > What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick > (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of > experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate > extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what > he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole > lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean > when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the > limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he > would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, > means by "poem." > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing > attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm > exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole > or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with > a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the > perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that > cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an > language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? > > > However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. > Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly > so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by > the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words > and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but > verging toward that state in many places in the writing. > > I quoted this remark by *Maximus* Olson before, "It's all right to be > difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of > all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly > dismay. > > Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set > of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these > attributes were the rites of their religion? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could > be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me > that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And > neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any > objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles > of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes > more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that > makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the > divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion > trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead > languagguage. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 13:07:20 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:07:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com><8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC7FA58360F694-8BD0-16FC@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Going against the grain again, I see. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion Sticky rice and non-sticky rice both fit the same bowl. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: Thanks for the clarification. One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." Best, Mark At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but verging toward that state in many places in the writing. I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly dismay. Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. I know of no one who tries write incoherently. Best, Mark At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these attributes were the rites of their religion? clear / vague sequential / disjunctive narrative / non-narrative syntactical / asyntactic closed / open controlled / loose understandable / difficult coherent / incoherent simple / complex grammatical / ungrammatical Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead languagguage. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 19 13:34:30 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:34:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo. com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp 1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7ED9B6.9000905@nut-n-but.net> There's probably only one dichotomy that counts: standard / non-standard. The second is to be preferred because to be standard is to be done so often that the sensitive have to become bored with it. In each of Jim's dichotomies, one of the descriptors is standard, at that time, the other non-standard. understandable is for a while preferred to difficult, but gets to be too preferred; poets almost all try to be understandable; ergo, the best poets start avoiding it--until being difficult becomes standard. Very simple, like all my thinking about aesthetics. --Bob jforjames at aol.com wrote: > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream > vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set > of ?language attributes? in an unquestioning manner. As if these > attributes were the rites of their religion? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words > could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you > look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn?t > seem to me that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving > adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim > any objective/inherent ?value? over the other side. They are poles of > attraction but don?t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a > matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that > makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other > of the divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these > poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of > their work, without becoming ?neutral?; or to carry forward the > religion trope, they have not become ?agnostic? in face of their > godhead language. > Finnegan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 19 13:37:23 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:37:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo. com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp 1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@we bmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B7EDA63.6070008@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the > right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to > the left-hand side. > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > Best, > > Mark Watch it, Mark--you seem to be agreeing with my shot-down thesis that good poems are always coherent (in some way). --Bob G. From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 19 15:57:03 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:57:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7FA58360F694-8BD0-16FC@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA58360F694-8BD0-16FC@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Some rice is more tenacious, some less. At 01:07 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >Going against the grain again, I see. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Halvard Johnson >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&,Views >Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 12:59 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > >Sticky rice and non-sticky rice both fit the same bowl. > >Hal > >"Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Thanks for the clarification. > >One possibility that some poets have played with >is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The >poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try >this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. >Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a >pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a >while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for >finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, >try to work the border between verbal and non- >or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is >a questioning not just of form, but of >life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is >extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I >don't know his work) after all has only one >brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he >carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme >the result would be a map of his known world. To >appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working >blind here) one would have to suspend a whole >lot of assumptions, including whatever >assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say >"poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting >to define the limits of coherence, his own, the >knowable world's and the language's, he would >seem to mean something very different from what >a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." > >Best, > >Mark > >At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen >>to represent the competing attributes; one >>could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' >>perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that >>certain writers are trying to write toward one >>pole or another, but rather one could say that >>certain poets are comfortable with a strong >>measure of incoherence in their work. The pole >>itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or >>coherent only by random collision of words that >>cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and >>not actual state of an language. How >>'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? >> >>However I think some earliest language poets >>did try to write incoherently. Locally we have >>poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random >>(or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases >>that are coherent only by accident or by the >>inevitable associations each of us >>idiosyncratically may draw from words and >>phrases as they pass through our minds. Not >>perfect incoherence, but verging toward that >>state in many places in the writing. >> >>I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, >>"It's all right to be difficult, but you can't >>be impossible." That is probably the sentiment >>of all poets except for a very few are entirely >>comfortable with utter readerly dismay. >> >>Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] >>Finnegan >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion >> >>It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >>rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >>though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. >> >>I know of no one who tries write incoherently. >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >> >>At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>>One of the things I like to call attention to >>>is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem >>>to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain >>>set of ?????????language attattributes?????? >>>in an unquestioning manner. As As if if these >>>attributes were the rites of their religion >>> >>>clear / vague >>>sequential / disjunctive >>>narrative / non-narrative >>>syntactical / asyntactic >>>closed / open >>>controlled / loose >>>understandable / difficult >>>coherent / incoherent >>>simple / complex >>>grammatical / ungrammatical >>> >>>Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a >>>sample and other words could be used to >>>respresent the competing attributes, but when >>>you look at the dialectic of these common >>>language attributes, it doesn??????????????t >>>seem to me that either side of the dividee >>>deserves such unswerving adoration. And >>>neither side of any set of attributes really >>>can claim any objective/inherent >>>??????vavalue?????? ove??? over the other >>>side.side. They are poles of attraction but >>>don???????????????t possess inherent goodness. >>>It then becomes more a matter >>>sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned >>>practice that makes one (as poet or reader) >>>comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. >>> >>>Certain poets have successfully slipped back >>>and forth between these poles to varying >>>degrees in certain poems, or throughout the >>>body of their work, without becoming >>>??????neutral??????????;????????; or to carry >>>forward the rehe religion trope, they have not >>>become ????????????agnostic?????? in face of their godhead languagguaguage. >>>Finnegan >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 19 16:18:57 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:18:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I don't think that there's been a common agreement about what to call poetry (or for that moment the commons) for a long time. I may be mistaken, but I think I detect a misunderstanding in your reference to Ball. All of those who, out of a profound dissatisfaction with all of the status quos that were inexorably leading them from one disastrous war to another without end, declared with Pound the need to "make it new" weren't preaching that each work of art (or politics) had to be a total departure from every other work of art (etc.) in any narrow technical sense. That would have been rather like telling Shakespeare that sonnet 2 was hopelessly derivative. Pound and his rather large cohort were interested in new ways of working in order to discover new ways of being (see, it's not really just about technique), but they were also interested, in the face of a pretty blah Edwardian or third republic or what have you milieu, in recovering the freshness of first encounters. As with the sonnet for Shakespeare, each experiment was potentially a new thing, whether or not the means resembled an earlier use, because it offered the chance to delimit a new form, a new world-as-perceived in a given moment by a given artist, which would add to the store of known worlds to explore and extend. Modernist artists were a lot more discontented with their environments than Shakespeare had been, and the means were often correspondingly more radical--the mask had to be more thoroughly pierced. The danger, of course, especially with the professionalization of p[oetry, is that even so radically felt a need can become in the hands of most a mannerism. But most work at any time is crap--we don't (back to Shakespeare) discount his sonnets because there were so many truly awful ones being written. If you read in this that the divide may be in how one hopes to live one's life I won't dispute it. Best, Mark At 12:41 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist for >sure, the poem/piece as rendered questions the >very genre/category (family-resemblance v. the >milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. > >Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo >Ball...his stuff is glossolalia like. Here is a >link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, that >Marie Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem >"Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's Believe It or Not... >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA >Finnegan >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views >Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > >Thanks for the clarification. > >One possibility that some poets have played with >is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The >poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try >this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. >Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a >pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a >while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for >finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, >try to work the border between verbal and non- >or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is >a questioning not just of form, but of >life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is >extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I >don't know his work) after all has only one >brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he >carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme >the result would be a map of his known world. To >appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working >blind here) one would have to suspend a whole >lot of assumptions, including whatever >assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say >"poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting >to define the limits of coherence, his own, the >knowable world's and the language's, he would >seem to mean something very different from what >a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." > >Best, > >Mark > >At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen >>to represent the competing attributes; one >>could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' >>perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that >>certain writers are trying to write toward one >>pole or another, but rather one could say that >>certain poets are comfortable with a strong >>measure of incoherence in their work. The pole >>itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or >>coherent only by random collision of words that >>cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and >>not actual state of an language. How >>'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? >> >>However I think some earliest language poets >>did try to write incoherently. Locally we have >>poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random >>(or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases >>that are coherent only by accident or by the >>inevitable associations each of us >>idiosyncratically may draw from words and >>phrases as they pass through our minds. Not >>perfect incoherence, but verging toward that >>state in many places in the writing. >> >>I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, >>"It's all right to be difficult, but you can't >>be impossible." That is probably the sentiment >>of all poets except for a very few are entirely >>comfortable with utter readerly dismay. >> >>Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] >>Finnegan >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion >> >>It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >>rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >>though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. >> >>I know of no one who tries write incoherently. >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >> >>At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>>One of the things I like to call attention to >>>is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem >>>to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain >>>set of ????????????language attributes?????? >>>in an unquestioninging manner. As As if these >>>attributes were the rites of their religion??? >>> >>>clear / vague >>>sequential / disjunctive >>>narrative / non-narrative >>>syntactical / asyntactic >>>closed / open >>>controlled / loose >>>understandable / difficult >>>coherent / incoherent >>>simple / complex >>>grammatical / ungrammatical >>> >>>Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a >>>sample and other words could be used to >>>respresent the competing attributes, but when >>>you look at the dialectic of these common >>>language attributes, it doesn??????????????t >>>seem to me that either side of the dividee >>>deserves such unswerving adoration. And >>>neither side of any set of attributes really >>>can claim any objective/inherent >>>??????vavalue?????? ove??? over the other >>>side.side. They are poles of attraction but >>>don???????????????t possess inherent goodness. >>>It then becomes more a matter >>>sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned >>>practice that makes one (as poet or reader) >>>comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. >>> >>>Certain poets have successfully slipped back >>>and forth between these poles to varying >>>degrees in certain poems, or throughout the >>>body of their work, without becoming >>>??????neutral??????????;????????; or to carry >>>forward the rehe religion trope, they have not >>>become ????????????agnostic?????? in face of their godhead languagguaguage. >>>Finnegan >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 17:52:09 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 23:52:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Constructive Spirit Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002191452x61d6c17ayaf97d4dd54a3fa89@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/arts/design/19constructive.html?8dpc -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Feb 19 18:02:07 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:02:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to represent the world as it is. >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:12:30 -0500 >From: Mark Weiss > >It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > >I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > >Best, > >Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 19 18:39:57 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8CC7FD3FB0DA9F2-3998-31B5@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com> Or as Jeffers put it, "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is confused, that its poets should share its confusions." ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" -----Original Message----- From: Crisman Cooley To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to represent the world as it is. >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:12:30 -0500 >From: Mark Weiss > >It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > >I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > >Best, > >Mark _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 19 20:09:18 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:09:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> Crisman Cooley wrote: > And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to > represent the world as it is. Whew, how much I don't agree with there. The world is coherent, number one. Poetry's function is not journalistic, number two. If you want to represent incoherence effectively, you must represent it coherently, number three. There are probably more than a few reasons to write incoherently, including annoying stuffy anti-nihilists like me and creating possibly a stir, number four. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 10:37:53 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:37:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002200737s235e3f8fo3ee6229e9929592c@mail.gmail.com> Blonk performs Ursonate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs0yapSIRmM&feature=related Kurt Schwitters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGAnINpvSeo&feature=related On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 6:41 PM, wrote: > Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist for sure, the poem/piece as > rendered questions the very genre/category (family-resemblance v. the > milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. > > Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo Ball...his stuff is glossolalia > like. Here is a link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, that Marie > Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem "Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's > Believe It or Not... > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > Thanks for the clarification. > > One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries > of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put > two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops > perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because > we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just > poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between > order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. > What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick > (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of > experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate > extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what > he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole > lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean > when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the > limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he > would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, > means by "poem." > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing > attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm > exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole > or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with > a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the > perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that > cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an > language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? > > > However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. > Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly > so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by > the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words > and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but > verging toward that state in many places in the writing. > > I quoted this remark by *Maximus* Olson before, "It's all right to be > difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of > all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly > dismay. > > Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set > of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > ??????language attributes???? in an unquestioning manner. As As if these > attributes were the rites of their religion? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could > be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn???????t seem to me > that either side of the divide deserves such unswerving adoration. And > neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any > objective/inherent ????value???? ove?? over the other side. They are poles > of attraction but don???????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes > more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that > makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the > divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > without becoming ????neutral????;?????; or to carry forward the religion > trope, they have not become ??????agnostic???? in face of their godhead > languagguage. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 20 11:54:37 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:54:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net><89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com><8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com><8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> If I'm reading you correctly, Mark, I detect the notion that world-view & radical aesthetics are highly correlated. I don't know that the evidence backs you up entirely. Pound's aesthetic influence is evident on Eliot, yet Eliot remained deeply conservative (and one could suggest worse). Pound himself veered to fascism. (The poet with the ready dictum may have betrayed some of the dictator that was in him). On Ron's blog he notes that many of the Italian futurists lapsed into similar fascist sentiments. The best of the Great War poets, those who served, still had a full measure of Edwardian mustiness in their verses which hardly cloaked their criticism of the waste and conduct of the war, the class implications which played out during the conflict, and on the whole they were probably more influential on public opinion than any dadaist/modernist at the time. The Wobblies, early unionist and political radicals, wrote in a somewhat naive style. Sing-song rimes and simple ballads. (Years ago I had a book Wobbly poetry but I don't have it at hand to quote from.) Then other more artistic yet activist poets, like the poet Lola Ridge, broke to free verse but aesthetically were not very avant. Later there was the great activist poet Muriel Rukeyser. I don't see many stylistically avant poets claiming her as forebear. Then the Sixties and Vietnam eventually pulled even the likes of Robert Lowell into the protest movements. Grace Paley has all the political/activist bona fides. Her poetics however doesn't follow in lock step. A high Modernist like Stevens was as conventional a burgher as you'll find. But the poetry was profoundly imaginative and semantically challenging at every turn. He was vested in that art-for-art's-sake notion which many an aesthetically radical artist claim as their only allegience. On different note, some assume dress and taste in decor correlate with radical aesthetics. I've found that not to be case with a number of poets and artists who are vested in anti-traditional aethetics. I can hear Vallejo railing against Breton in "Autopsy on Surrelism." Because certain radical artists start with anarchy but end in apolitical nihilism. The attributes of a divided poetics based on identifiable language techniques are easier to cleave. Making a case that politics necessarily underpins the poetics is slippery and fraught with exceptions. It does some but not for others. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion I don't think that there's been a common agreement about what to call poetry (or for that moment the commons) for a long time. I may be mistaken, but I think I detect a misunderstanding in your reference to Ball. All of those who, out of a profound dissatisfaction with all of the status quos that were inexorably leading them from one disastrous war to another without end, declared with Pound the need to "make it new" weren't preaching that each work of art (or politics) had to be a total departure from every other work of art (etc.) in any narrow technical sense. That would have been rather like telling Shakespeare that sonnet 2 was hopelessly derivative. Pound and his rather large cohort were interested in new ways of working in order to discover new ways of being (see, it's not really just about technique), but they were also interested, in the face of a pretty blah Edwardian or third republic or what have you milieu, in recovering the freshness of first encounters. As with the sonnet for Shakespeare, each experiment was potentially a new thing, whether or not the means resembled an earlier use, because it offered the chance to delimit a new form, a new world-as-perceived in a given moment by a given artist, which would add to the store of known worlds to explore and extend. Modernist artists were a lot more discontented with their environments than Shakespeare had been, and the means were often correspondingly more radical--the mask had to be more thoroughly pierced. The danger, of course, especially with the professionalization of p[oetry, is that even so radically felt a need can become in the hands of most a mannerism. But most work at any time is crap--we don't (back to Shakespeare) discount his sonnets because there were so many truly awful ones being written. If you read in this that the divide may be in how one hopes to live one's life I won't dispute it. Best, Mark At 12:41 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist for sure, the poem/piece as rendered questions the very genre/category (family-resemblance v. the milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo Ball...his stuff is glossolalia like. Here is a link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, that Marie Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem "Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's Believe It or Not... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion Thanks for the clarification. One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." Best, Mark At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but verging toward that state in many places in the writing. I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly dismay. Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. I know of no one who tries write incoherently. Best, Mark At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of ????????????language attributes?????? in an unquestioninging manner. As As if these attributes were the rites of their religion??? clear / vague sequential / disjunctive narrative / non-narrative syntactical / asyntactic closed / open controlled / loose understandable / difficult coherent / incoherent simple / complex grammatical / ungrammatical Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn??????????????t seem to me that either side of the dividee deserves such unswerving adoration. And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any objective/inherent ??????vavalue?????? ove??? over the other side.side. They are poles of attraction but don???????????????t possess inherent goodness. It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, without becoming ??????neutral??????????;????????; or to carry forward the rehe religion trope, they have not become ????????????agnostic?????? in face of their godhead languagguaguage. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetryAnnouncing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 12:31:51 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:31:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002200931k14964267r4245f6e2392676ec@mail.gmail.com> I practically agree on everything, especially the dichotomies if not the contradictions implicit in a movement, if not in the same author. What I think might find a certain polemic if not reformulated is the following: Because certain radical artists start with anarchy but end in apolitical nihilism. Anarchism in its first principle is the lack of politics, i.e. political nihilism. I take it for granted that apolitical nihilism stands for political nihilism. On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > If I'm reading you correctly, Mark, I detect the notion that world-view & > radical aesthetics are highly correlated. I don't know that the evidence > backs you up entirely. Pound's aesthetic influence is evident on Eliot, yet > Eliot remained deeply conservative (and one could suggest worse). > Pound himself veered to fascism. (The poet with the ready dictum may > have betrayed some of the dictator that was in him). On Ron's blog he notes > that many of the Italian futurists lapsed into similar fascist sentiments. > > The best of the Great War poets, those who served, still had a full measure > of Edwardian mustiness in their verses which hardly cloaked their criticism > of the waste and conduct of the war, the class implications which played out > during the conflict, and on the whole they were probably more influential on > public opinion than any dadaist/modernist at the time. > > The Wobblies, early unionist and political radicals, wrote in a somewhat > naive style. Sing-song rimes and simple ballads. (Years ago I had a > book Wobbly poetry but I don't have it at hand to quote from.) Then other > more artistic yet activist poets, like the poet Lola Ridge, broke to free > verse but aesthetically were not very avant. Later there was the great > activist poet Muriel Rukeyser. I don't see many stylistically avant poets > claiming her as forebear. Then the Sixties and Vietnam eventually pulled > even the likes of Robert Lowell into the protest movements. Grace Paley has > all the political/activist bona fides. Her poetics however doesn't follow in > lock step. > A high Modernist like Stevens was as conventional a burgher as you'll > find. But the poetry was profoundly imaginative and semantically challenging > at every turn. He was vested in that art-for-art's-sake notion which many an > aesthetically radical artist claim as their only allegience. On different > note, some assume dress and taste in decor correlate with radical > aesthetics. I've found that not to be case with a number of poets and > artists who are vested in anti-traditional aethetics. I can hear Vallejo > railing against Breton in "Autopsy on Surrelism." Because certain radical > artists start with anarchy but end in apolitical nihilism. > > The attributes of a divided poetics based on identifiable language > techniques are easier to cleave. Making a case that politics > necessarily underpins the poetics is slippery and fraught with exceptions. > It does some but not for others. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 4:18 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > I don't think that there's been a common agreement about what to call > poetry (or for that moment the commons) for a long time. > > I may be mistaken, but I think I detect a misunderstanding in your > reference to Ball. All of those who, out of a profound dissatisfaction with > all of the status quos that were inexorably leading them from one disastrous > war to another without end, declared with Pound the need to "make it new" > weren't preaching that each work of art (or politics) had to be a total > departure from every other work of art (etc.) in any narrow technical sense. > That would have been rather like telling Shakespeare that sonnet 2 was > hopelessly derivative. Pound and his rather large cohort were interested in > new ways of working in order to discover new ways of being (see, it's not > really just about technique), but they were also interested, in the face of > a pretty blah Edwardian or third republic or what have you milieu, in > recovering the freshness of first encounters. As with the sonnet for > Shakespeare, each experiment was potentially a new thing, whether or not the > means resembled an earlier use, because it offered the chance to delimit a > new form, a new world-as-perceived in a given moment by a given artist, > which would add to the store of known worlds to explore and extend. > Modernist artists were a lot more discontented with their environments than > Shakespeare had been, and the means were often correspondingly more > radical--the mask had to be more thoroughly pierced. > > The danger, of course, especially with the professionalization of p[oetry, > is that even so radically felt a need can become in the hands of most a > mannerism. But most work at any time is crap--we don't (back to Shakespeare) > discount his sonnets because there were so many truly awful ones being > written. > > If you read in this that the divide may be in how one hopes to live one's > life I won't dispute it. > > Best, > > Mark > > > > At 12:41 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist for sure, the poem/piece as > rendered questions the very genre/category (family-resemblance v. the > milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. > > Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo Ball...his stuff is glossolalia > like. Here is a link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, that Marie > Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem "Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's > Believe It or Not... > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > Thanks for the clarification. > > One possibility that some poets have played with is testing the boundaries > of incoherence. The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. Try this. Put > two objects on a surface. Add a third. Keep going until your mind stops > perceiving a pattern or a pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, because > we're hard-wired, apparently, for finding coherence. Many artists, not just > poets, try to work the border between verbal and non- or pre-verbal, between > order and chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, but of life-form. > What one discovers is that chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick > (sorry, I don't know his work) after all has only one brain, one store of > experience. Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to the ultimate > extreme the result would be a map of his known world. To appreciate what > he's doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would have to suspend a whole > lot of assumptions, including whatever assumptions inhere in what we mean > when we say "poem." Aside from the commonality of attempting to define the > limits of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and the language's, he > would seem to mean something very different from what a lyric poet, say, > means by "poem." > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen to represent the competing > attributes; one could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' perhaps. And I'm > exactly suggesting that certain writers are trying to write toward one pole > or another, but rather one could say that certain poets are comfortable with > a strong measure of incoherence in their work. The pole itself would be the > perfectly incoherent, or coherent only by random collision of words that > cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal and not actual state of an > language. How 'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? > > > However I think some earliest language poets did try to write incoherently. > Locally we have poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random (or seemingly > so) strings of words and phrases that are coherent only by accident or by > the inevitable associations each of us idiosyncratically may draw from words > and phrases as they pass through our minds. Not perfect incoherence, but > verging toward that state in many places in the writing. > > I quoted this remark by *Maximus* Olson before, "It's all right to be > difficult, but you can't be impossible." That is probably the sentiment of > all poets except for a very few are entirely comfortable with utter readerly > dismay. > > Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > > It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering rigidly to the right-hand set > of attributes, though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. > > I know of no one who tries write incoherently. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: > > One of the things I like to call attention to is how poets (mainstream vs. > avant-garde) seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a certain set of > ????????????language attributes?????? in an unquestioninging manner. As As > if these attributes were the rites of their religion??? > > clear / vague > sequential / disjunctive > narrative / non-narrative > syntactical / asyntactic > closed / open > controlled / loose > understandable / difficult > coherent / incoherent > simple / complex > grammatical / ungrammatical > > Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a sample and other words could > be used to respresent the competing attributes, but when you look at the > dialectic of these common language attributes, it doesn??????????????t seem > to me that either side of the dividee deserves such unswerving adoration. > And neither side of any set of attributes really can claim any > objective/inherent ??????vavalue?????? ove??? over the other side.side. They > are poles of attraction but don???????????????t possess inherent goodness. > It then becomes more a matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, learned > practice that makes one (as poet or reader) comfortable with one side or the > other of the divide. > > Certain poets have successfully slipped back and forth between these poles > to varying degrees in certain poems, or throughout the body of their work, > without becoming ??????neutral??????????;????????; or to carry forward the > rehe religion trope, they have not become ????????????agnostic?????? in face > of their godhead languagguaguage. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > = > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 12:33:40 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:33:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002200933l2d004d79x2d99af14048855e6@mail.gmail.com> The following is true: If you want to represent incoherence effectively, you must represent it coherently, On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:09 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to >> represent the world as it is. >> > Whew, how much I don't agree with there. The world is coherent, number > one. Poetry's function is not journalistic, number two. If you want to > represent incoherence effectively, you must represent it coherently, number > three. There are probably more than a few reasons to write incoherently, > including annoying stuffy anti-nihilists like me and creating possibly a > stir, number four. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 12:40:20 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:40:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Then other more artistic yet activist poets, like the poet Lola Ridge, broke to free verse but aesthetically were not very avant. On the other hand, her later work was more conservative and less political (in general). -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 12:56:42 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:56:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.com> What a nice & tidy little manicured world that you must inhabit. Jeff Newberry On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > The world is coherent, > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 20 13:00:09 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:00:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7CA180.4000205@nut-n-but.net> <89704.19611.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net> <939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You're conflating a lot of very different things. A bit of clarification of what I meant, anyway. 1. Politics in the broadest sense, a reaction to the state of the polis. Some poets of various persuasions mounted soapboxes, but most restricted their activism to poetry, their own neighborhood. In the more specific sense, wanting to upend everything doesn't make one on the side of the angels, whether the one in question is Pound, Aragon, the futurists or Celine. 2. A world-view or a way of life in the sense of a way of conceiving of a life. Inseparable from the poetry. Stevens didn't have to divest himself of the trappings of a buttoned-down world to be included. I think it would be very difficult to imagine him living in the same world, in that sense, as, say, Frost (but you can probably think of better examples--not necessary to argue here for or against Frost's modernism. Edwin Markham anyone?). 3. Generations of British schoolchildren memorized the war poets, who nonetheless had no effect on public sentiment. The industrial slaughter of an entire generation was a bit more persuasive. Do you really think that Rupert Brooke had anything to do with the sentiment that led Europe to decide it could no longer tolerate wars on its turf? 4. Railing against Breton is a popular sport. I play it myself. Gotta love a guy who excluded from the fold Jacob, Reverdy, and Cocteau. Such railing is not a taking sides against modernism. Breton had a hell of an art collection, tho. 5. Lots of folks betray the causes of their youths and flee to perceived safety. Specific to Eliot, Pound's influence was short-lived. Essentially a Victorian poet, closer to Browning perhaps. Across dozens of political, linguistic, and genre borders, in the late 19th-early 20th centuries there was a profound rejection or recasting of much of the past, resulting for some in nihilism but for those and almost all other participants in an intense spiritual quest, which continues for many, despite the various forms of bureaucracy that have overtaken the arts. I'm talking about a change (many different kinds of changes, natch) in the way reality is conceptualized. That's the revolutionary change. Among artists who are speakers of European languages nothing has remained as it was before WWI. Except among English speakers, who mostly abandoned modernism after WWII, for reasons that remain to me obscure. Consider by contrast Latin America, where multitudes of poets gather under the banner of Lezama's dictum "S?lo lo dif?cil es estimulante." We'll get to continue this in Hartford. Best, Mark At 11:54 AM 2/20/2010, you wrote: >If I'm reading you correctly, Mark, I detect the >notion that world-view & radical aesthetics are >highly correlated. I don't know that the >evidence backs you up entirely. Pound's >aesthetic influence is evident on Eliot, yet >Eliot remained deeply conservative (and one >could suggest worse). Pound himself veered to >fascism. (The poet with the ready dictum may >have betrayed some of the dictator that was in >him). On Ron's blog he notes that many of the >Italian futurists lapsed into similar fascist sentiments. > >The best of the Great War poets, those who >served, still had a full measure of Edwardian >mustiness in their verses which hardly cloaked >their criticism of the waste and conduct of the >war, the class implications which played out >during the conflict, and on the whole they were >probably more influential on public opinion than >any dadaist/modernist at the time. > >The Wobblies, early unionist and political >radicals, wrote in a somewhat naive style. >Sing-song rimes and simple ballads. (Years ago I >had a book Wobbly poetry but I don't have it at >hand to quote from.) Then other more artistic >yet activist poets, like the poet Lola Ridge, >broke to free verse but aesthetically were not >very avant. Later there was the great activist >poet Muriel Rukeyser. I don't see many >stylistically avant poets claiming her as >forebear. Then the Sixties and Vietnam >eventually pulled even the likes of Robert >Lowell into the protest movements. Grace Paley >has all the political/activist bona fides. Her >poetics however doesn't follow in lock step. >A high Modernist like Stevens was as >conventional a burgher as you'll find. But the >poetry was profoundly imaginative and >semantically challenging at every turn. He was >vested in that art-for-art's-sake notion which >many an aesthetically radical artist claim as >their only allegience. On different note, some >assume dress and taste in decor correlate with >radical aesthetics. I've found that not to be >case with a number of poets and artists who are >vested in anti-traditional aethetics. I can hear >Vallejo railing against Breton in "Autopsy on >Surrelism." Because certain radical artists >start with anarchy but end in apolitical nihilism. > >The attributes of a divided poetics based on >identifiable language techniques are easier to >cleave. Making a case that politics necessarily >underpins the poetics is slippery and fraught >with exceptions. It does some but not for others. > >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views >Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 4:18 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion > >I don't think that there's been a common >agreement about what to call poetry (or for that >moment the commons) for a long time. > >I may be mistaken, but I think I detect a >misunderstanding in your reference to Ball. All >of those who, out of a profound dissatisfaction >with all of the status quos that were inexorably >leading them from one disastrous war to another >without end, declared with Pound the need to >"make it new" weren't preaching that each work >of art (or politics) had to be a total departure >from every other work of art (etc.) in any >narrow technical sense. That would have been >rather like telling Shakespeare that sonnet 2 >was hopelessly derivative. Pound and his rather >large cohort were interested in new ways of >working in order to discover new ways of being >(see, it's not really just about technique), but >they were also interested, in the face of a >pretty blah Edwardian or third republic or what >have you milieu, in recovering the freshness of >first encounters. As with the sonnet for >Shakespeare, each experiment was potentially a >new thing, whether or not the means resembled an >earlier use, because it offered the chance to >delimit a new form, a new world-as-perceived in >a given moment by a given artist, which would >add to the store of known worlds to explore and >extend. Modernist artists were a lot more >discontented with their environments than >Shakespeare had been, and the means were often >correspondingly more radical--the mask had to be more thoroughly pierced. > >The danger, of course, especially with the >professionalization of p[oetry, is that even so >radically felt a need can become in the hands of >most a mannerism. But most work at any time is >crap--we don't (back to Shakespeare) discount >his sonnets because there were so many truly awful ones being written. > >If you read in this that the divide may be in >how one hopes to live one's life I won't dispute it. > >Best, > >Mark > > > >At 12:41 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>Yes, at some point, tested by many a dadaist >>for sure, the poem/piece as rendered questions >>the very genre/category (family-resemblance v. >>the milkman's child) we commonly agree to call 'poetry'. >> >>Some people I'm sure know the name Hugo >>Ball...his stuff is glossolalia like. Here is a >>link to the recording of Marie Osmond (yes, >>that Marie Osmond) reciting a Hugo Ball poem >>"Karawane" for a segment of Ripley's Believe It or Not... >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpjIJ8a9cA >>Finnegan >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:59 am >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion >> >>Thanks for the clarification. >> >>One possibility that some poets have played >>with is testing the boundaries of incoherence. >>The poem is in fact "about" that experiment. >>Try this. Put two objects on a surface. Add a >>third. Keep going until your mind stops >>perceiving a pattern or a >>pattern-in-the-making. It takes a while, >>because we're hard-wired, apparently, for >>finding coherence. Many artists, not just >>poets, try to work the border between verbal >>and non- or pre-verbal, between order and >>chaos. This is a questioning not just of form, >>but of life-form. What one discovers is that >>chaos is extremely difficult to achieve. Ganick >>(sorry, I don't know his work) after all has >>only one brain, one store of experience. >>Presumably if he carried his "randomness" to >>the ultimate extreme the result would be a map >>of his known world. To appreciate what he's >>doing (again, I'm working blind here) one would >>have to suspend a whole lot of assumptions, >>including whatever assumptions inhere in what >>we mean when we say "poem." Aside from the >>commonality of attempting to define the limits >>of coherence, his own, the knowable world's and >>the language's, he would seem to mean something >>very different from what a lyric poet, say, means by "poem." >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >> >>At 11:39 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>>Mark, like I said, other words could be chosen >>>to represent the competing attributes; one >>>could substitute 'obscure' or 'chaotic' >>>perhaps. And I'm exactly suggesting that >>>certain writers are trying to write toward one >>>pole or another, but rather one could say that >>>certain poets are comfortable with a strong >>>measure of incoherence in their work. The pole >>>itself would be the perfectly incoherent, or >>>coherent only by random collision of words >>>that cohere, and that is pretty much an ideal >>>and not actual state of an language. How >>>'negatively capable' can on be as poet or as a reader of poem? >>> >>>However I think some earliest language poets >>>did try to write incoherently. Locally we have >>>poet Peter Ganick and his work is often random >>>(or seemingly so) strings of words and phrases >>>that are coherent only by accident or by the >>>inevitable associations each of us >>>idiosyncratically may draw from words and >>>phrases as they pass through our minds. Not >>>perfect incoherence, but verging toward that >>>state in many places in the writing. >>> >>>I quoted this remark by Maximus Olson before, >>>"It's all right to be difficult, but you can't >>>be impossible." That is probably the sentiment >>>of all poets except for a very few are >>>entirely comfortable with utter readerly dismay. >>> >>>Shouldn't you be doing some sawing? [Inside joke.] >>>Finnegan >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net > >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>&Views < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>>Sent: Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:12 am >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion >>> >>>It's difficult to imagine many poets adhering >>>rigidly to the right-hand set of attributes, >>>though I think a great many adhere to the left-hand side. >>> >>>I know of no one who tries write incoherently. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>Mark >>> >>>At 10:29 AM 2/19/2010, you wrote: >>>>One of the things I like to call attention to >>>>is how poets (mainstream vs. avant-garde) >>>>seem to be drawn to, if not obedient to a >>>>certain set of >>>>?????????????????? ???? ???language >>>>attributes?????????? in an unquestioninging >>>>manner. As As As if these attributes were the rites of their religion?????? >>>> >>>>clear / vague >>>>sequential / disjunctive >>>>narrative / non-narrative >>>>syntactical / asyntactic >>>>closed / open >>>>controlled / loose >>>>understandable / difficult >>>>coherent / incoherent >>>>simple / complex >>>>grammatical / ungrammatical >>>> >>>>Now the descriptors arrayed above are only a >>>>sample and other words could be used to >>>>respresent the competing attributes, but when >>>>you look at the dialectic of these common >>>>language attributes, it >>>>doesn??????????????????????????t??t seem to >>>>me that either side of the dividee deserves >>>>such unswerving adoration. And neither side >>>>of any set of attributes really can claim any >>>>objective/inherent >>>>??????????vavalue???????????? ove????? over >>>>the other sidr side.side. They are poles of >>>>attraction but >>>>don?????????????????????????????t possesess >>>>inherent goodness. It then becomes more a >>>>matter sensibility/taste or, in some cases, >>>>learned practice that makes one (as poet or >>>>reader) comfortable with one side or the other of the divide. >>>> >>>>Certain poets have successfully slipped back >>>>and forth between these poles to varying >>>>degrees in certain poems, or throughout the >>>>body of their work, without becoming >>>>??????????neutral???????????????????;????;????????????????; >>>>or to carry forward the rehee religion trope, >>>>they have not become >>>>?????????????????????agnostic??????????????? >>>>in face of their godhead languagguaguage. >>>>Finnegan >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >>> >>>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth >>>Century French Poetry has a bilingual >>>anthology so effectively broadened the sense >>>of poetic terrain outside the United States >>>and also created a superb collection of >>>foreign poems in English. There is nothing >>>else like it." John Palattella in The >>>Nation >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >= >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 20 13:07:08 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:07:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's a matter of scale. At the scale at which we live our lives not so coherent. At the scale of planetary system very coherent. Chaos theory helps a lot. Mark At 12:56 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: >What a nice & tidy little manicured world that you must inhabit. > >Jeff Newberry > >On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Bob Grumman ><bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: >The world is coherent, > > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; >and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular >people and experience, from which each according to his own >immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Feb 20 14:07:17 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:07:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers Message-ID: I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. What I meant is that the mind provides intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the latter being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 Or as Jeffers put it, "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is confused, that its poets should share its confusions." ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 20 14:20:27 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:20:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less willed. I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: >I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide >clarity in times of confusion-- an act of >bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > >What I meant is that the mind provides >intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if you will-- >in what is essentially a meaningless world. > >Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs >"post-avant" discussion without favoring either >one: the poetry of the former being in general a >presentation of a world already made coherent, >and the poetry of the latter being one in which >the reader is presented with a world in a more >raw, incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 >From: jforjames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > >Or as Jeffers put it, > > >"...it is not necessary, because an epoch is >confused, that its poets should share its confusions." > >?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Feb 20 14:24:48 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:24:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: agreement Message-ID: 1) Is it the world, or your mind that is coherent? Black holes seem coherent, though they do dissipate over 10^64 years. The earth is pretty coherent, but it will be swallowed up in some black hole. The sun is not very coherent. Cosmic background radiation doesn't seem at all coherent. And space doesn't appear to be cohering very well. In fact, the universe appears, from its beginnings in extreme high degree of order, to be slouching into pandemic chaos somewhere at its end. 2) I hate journalism. I haven't decided yet about poetry. 3) Demonstrate. 4) Yes, there are probably other reasons, ad nauseam; but I don't accept them. Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:09:18 -0500 From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <4B7F363E.3050600 at nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Crisman Cooley wrote: > And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to > represent the world as it is. Whew, how much I don't agree with there. The world is coherent, number one. Poetry's function is not journalistic, number two. If you want to represent incoherence effectively, you must represent it coherently, number three. There are probably more than a few reasons to write incoherently, including annoying stuffy anti-nihilists like me and creating possibly a stir, number four. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Feb 20 14:29:17 2010 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:29:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman In-Reply-To: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> On Feb 20, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to > represent the world as it is. > wiseass remark, Crisman (always good to see a post from you out here in the LurkerDome). True, we want that seethe of the rarely coherent Real, but served (no?) in a wrought cup or bowl or steamship, not as flotsomic jetsam. Do we have to label the successful marriage of the far-out and the sane as "hybrid?" How about "art" instead? I offer this condensation to The Crisman, hoping I'm reading right where he's coming from: Chaos Contained. Along such lines, anybody see Gilliam's latest, The Imaginarium? -- an often lively piece that resists a sensible line-through-of-action "almost successfully" (to play on a Steven's thought). I asked myself, what would it have cost those Parnassian film-makers to sprinkle in a bit more cause-and-effect as substitutes for the place-holding inclusions of dumb pratfalls to give the actors something to do while the Grand Guignol of unleashed imagining battered on. And then it came to me, maybe the answer to my Gilliam question: if the film's sequence had been given a saner shape, the result might be its defamation via the label "Mainstream" or worse, given the competition for the virtue of absolute strangeness released among us. hybridly, Barry From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 20 14:46:21 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:46:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman In-Reply-To: <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> References: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> Message-ID: It rarely occurs to me that mainstream poets write the way they do because of the competition for sameness. I really do try to understand what those who write in good faith (a minority of all camps) are trying to do. Let me tell you, universal compassion wears on a person. Gautama Weiss At 02:29 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: >On Feb 20, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >>And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to >>represent the world as it is. >wiseass remark, Crisman (always good to see a post from you >out here in the LurkerDome). > >True, we want that seethe of the rarely coherent Real, but served >(no?) in a wrought cup or bowl or steamship, not as flotsomic jetsam. > >Do we have to label the successful marriage of the far-out and >the sane as "hybrid?" How about "art" instead? > >I offer this condensation to The Crisman, hoping I'm reading right >where he's >coming from: Chaos Contained. > >Along such lines, anybody see Gilliam's latest, The Imaginarium? -- >an often lively piece that resists a sensible line-through-of-action > "almost successfully" (to play on a Steven's thought). > >I asked myself, what would it have cost those Parnassian film-makers >to sprinkle in a bit more cause-and-effect as substitutes for the >place-holding inclusions of dumb pratfalls to give the actors >something to do while the Grand Guignol of unleashed >imagining battered on. > >And then it came to me, maybe the answer to my Gilliam question: >if the film's sequence had been given a saner shape, the result might be >its defamation via the label "Mainstream" or worse, given the >competition for the virtue of absolute strangeness released among us. > >hybridly, > >Barry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 15:12:29 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:12:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman In-Reply-To: <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> References: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002201212t3b179200p607b4e054a59a88a@mail.gmail.com> An excellent post. 'Chaos Contained' A movie based on an existentialist and truthful unfolding would never sell, it would be the most boring sequence of senseless actions, which is what and the way we have been and will be living. On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Feb 20, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> >> And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to >> represent the world as it is. >> >> wiseass remark, Crisman (always good to see a post from you > out here in the LurkerDome). > > True, we want that seethe of the rarely coherent Real, but served > (no?) in a wrought cup or bowl or steamship, not as flotsomic jetsam. > > Do we have to label the successful marriage of the far-out and > the sane as "hybrid?" How about "art" instead? > > I offer this condensation to The Crisman, hoping I'm reading right where > he's > coming from: Chaos Contained. > > Along such lines, anybody see Gilliam's latest, The Imaginarium? -- > an often lively piece that resists a sensible line-through-of-action > "almost successfully" (to play on a Steven's thought). > > I asked myself, what would it have cost those Parnassian film-makers > to sprinkle in a bit more cause-and-effect as substitutes for the > place-holding inclusions of dumb pratfalls to give the actors > something to do while the Grand Guignol of unleashed > imagining battered on. > > And then it came to me, maybe the answer to my Gilliam question: > if the film's sequence had been given a saner shape, the result might be > its defamation via the label "Mainstream" or worse, given the > competition for the virtue of absolute strangeness released among us. > > hybridly, > > Barry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 15:47:18 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:47:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002200931k14964267r4245f6e2392676ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5 514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com><8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com><8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com><8CC80648530E7 D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002200931k14964267r4245f6e2392676ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B804A56.1040600@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I practically agree on everything, especially the dichotomies if not > the contradictions implicit in a movement, if not in the same author. > What I think might find a certain polemic if not reformulated is the > following: > > Because certain radical artists start with anarchy but end in > apolitical nihilism. > > Anarchism in its first principle is the lack of politics, i.e. > political nihilism. This seems Very Interesting to me, Anny. I don't think I've ever connected the two. Now that you've connected them, I uncertainly feel that anarchism is not nihilism. Anarchism is the positive belief that a society in which each individual is entirely responsible for himself is politically superior to any other form of government. Political nihilism would be, it seems to me, the belief that we can't know what kind of political form is best for society, or that it doesn't matter what form we try to follow, none of them will work. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 15:48:31 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:48:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002200933l2d004d79x2d99af14048855e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu><4B7F363E.3 050600@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71002200933l2d004d79x2d99af14048855e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B804A9F.5050501@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > The following is true: > > If you want to represent incoherence effectively, you must represent > it coherently, > Dang, my computer is screwing up again. It's pretending that Eye-talian agreed with me on something. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 15:50:06 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:50:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4B7F363E.3050600@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B804AFE.7040503@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > What a nice & tidy little manicured world that you must inhabit. > > Jeff Newberry Sorry, Jeff, but the world I live in is too different from the one you live in for you to come close to understanding it. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 16:06:36 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:06:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: <4B804A56.1040600@nut-n-but.net> References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@webmail-d086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com> <8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71002200931k14964267r4245f6e2392676ec@mail.gmail.com> <4B804A56.1040600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002201306h6ecc9d1ate4451cc48ee75cff@mail.gmail.com> I think we both agree on the concept but not on the wording of the idea. You see State from a positive side, I see it from the negative. Since politics (or all what is tied to politics, state, government) has a negative connotation (as far as I have lived them), political nihilism becomes thus a positive stand. It is anyhow quite convoluted and rhetorical to go through a negation to reach an affirmation. On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I practically agree on everything, especially the dichotomies if not the > contradictions implicit in a movement, if not in the same author. What I > think might find a certain polemic if not reformulated is the following: > > Because certain radical artists start with anarchy but end in apolitical > nihilism. > > Anarchism in its first principle is the lack of politics, i.e. political > nihilism. > > This seems Very Interesting to me, Anny. I don't think I've ever connected > the two. Now that you've connected them, I uncertainly feel that anarchism > is not nihilism. Anarchism is the positive belief that a society in which > each individual is entirely responsible for himself is politically superior > to any other form of government. Political nihilism would be, it seems to > me, the belief that > we can't know what kind of political form is best for society, or that it > doesn't matter what form we try to follow, none of them will work. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 16:18:40 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:18:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu><4B7F363E.3 050600@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1002200956u757f9132ld8bbf85144fdfb3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8051B0.4010500@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > I think it's a matter of scale. At the scale at which we live our > lives not so coherent. At the scale of planetary system very coherent. > > Chaos theory helps a lot. > > Mark Another factor is that coherence needn't mean perfect coherence. There's such a thing as adequate coherence. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 16:09:44 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:09:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Losing my religion In-Reply-To: References: <136650.47723.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B7D71AC.40900@nut-n-but.net><939756.6982.qm@web83306.mail.sp 1.yahoo.com><3EFD2971C5514D228E6CD78580810426@RobinLaptopPC><8CC7F8F82536114-34F8-D8C6@we bmail-d086.sysops.aol.com><8CC7F993071A5D9-4878-C3BD@webmail-d062.sysops. aol.com><8CC7FA1DF705C52-8BD0-1164@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com><8CC80648530E7D2-4ACC-AFF2@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B804F98.8010505@nut-n-but.net> > 3. Generations of British schoolchildren memorized the war poets, who > nonetheless had no effect on public sentiment. The industrial > slaughter of an entire generation was a bit more persuasive. Do you > really think that Rupert Brooke had anything to do with the sentiment > that led Europe to decide it could no longer tolerate wars on its turf? Come on, Mark--surely he had something to do with it. Wilfred Owen more. I'm temperamentally opposed to Shelley's idea of the "value" of poets but I think he's ultimately correct. Very complicated subject. At the moment it has me too confused to more than say I strongly feel present the futre of the language, and that helps ready us for the actual future. > > 4. Railing against Breton is a popular sport. I play it myself. Gotta > love a guy who excluded from the fold Jacob, Reverdy, and Cocteau. > Such railing is not a taking sides against modernism. > Breton had a hell of an art collection, tho. > > 5. Lots of folks betray the causes of their youths and flee to > perceived safety. Specific to Eliot, Pound's influence was > short-lived. Essentially a Victorian poet, closer to Browning perhaps. I disagree here so much I'm near-certain I'm misreading you. Pound was certain a Victorian poet, but he was also a troubador, and an Oriental (and I'm being purposely politically incorrect here because of how stupid I think the ban of "Oriental" is) and a co-inventor with Eliot of jump-cut poetry, which remains today one of the chief kinds of "cutting edge" poetry. I think all but the most formal poets of today have Pound in their lineage. > > Across dozens of political, linguistic, and genre borders, in the late > 19th-early 20th centuries there was a profound rejection or recasting > of much of the past, resulting for some in nihilism but for those and > almost all other participants in an intense spiritual quest, which > continues for many, despite the various forms of bureaucracy that have > overtaken the arts. I'm talking about a change (many different kinds > of changes, natch) in the way reality is conceptualized. That's the > revolutionary change. Among artists who are speakers of European > languages nothing has remained as it was before WWI. Except among > English speakers, who mostly abandoned modernism after WWII, for > reasons that remain to me obscure. Consider by contrast Latin America, > where multitudes of poets gather under the banner of Lezama's dictum > "S?lo lo dif?cil es estimulante." I don't think anyone abandoned modernism, although a lot want to think they've gone beyond it. Richard Kostelanetz often states he's a modernist, and I certainly am. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 16:30:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:30:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: agreement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B80548B.60701@nut-n-but.net> Crisman Cooley wrote: > 1) Is it the world, or your mind that is coherent? Black holes seem > coherent, though they do dissipate over 10^64 years. The earth is > pretty coherent, but it will be swallowed up in some black hole. The > sun is not very coherent. Cosmic background radiation doesn't seem at > all coherent. And space doesn't appear to be cohering very well. In > fact, the universe appears, from its beginnings in extreme high degree > of order, to be slouching into pandemic chaos somewhere at its end. I mean the 99.99% of the universe that we live in; I mean the fact that if someone suddenly throws a rotten tomato at you, you will authomatical move in a manner calculated to cause it to miss, and deploy one or both of your arms in such a way as to protect the rest of you from it. > > 2) I hate journalism. I haven't decided yet about poetry. > 3) Demonstrate. (poetry)(hjsiopp) = coherence I've engaged many visual poems in which something coherent emerges from a mess of typography, the mess of typography being incoherence coherently depicted as incoherence. Standard trope in visual poetry. > 4) Yes, there are probably other reasons, ad nauseam; but I don't > accept them. By that, I think you mean they wouldn't be reasons for you to write incoherently. They wouldn't be for me, either--except one--writing incoherently in order better to understand coherence and incoherence. My point here is simply that they are reasons for /some/one, which means that your reason isn't the only one. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 20 16:33:57 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:33:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman In-Reply-To: <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> References: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B805545.2040200@nut-n-but.net> Barry, your post made me think to present a variation on my statement that a good poem must be coherent: A good poem must be coherent, but not too coherent. --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Feb 20 18:28:05 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman In-Reply-To: <4B805545.2040200@nut-n-but.net> References: <201002201508.o1KF8RVX024629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3BF32779-A174-46D5-B1D8-503662B1EFB9@verizon.net> <4B805545.2040200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002201528t31bf7b05o30fb408eb2e634a@mail.gmail.com> ESPAX IS BACK!!! And already adding to Bob's WEPD! DUDE!!! inco-Judy On 20 February 2010 16:33, Bob Grumman wrote: > Barry, your post made me think to present a variation on > my statement that a good poem must be coherent: > > A good poem must be coherent, but not too coherent. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:46:48 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:46:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Making Kage-an an Artists Retreat Center In-Reply-To: <734023.63285.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <734023.63285.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002210046q476f883em41d7e471127db83d@mail.gmail.com> Sent by Paul E. Nelson to the Buffalo: http://splab.org/?p=355 After 35 years in Port Townsend, Sam Hamill is closing a chapter in his life and beginning another. The home, studio and library, he created in the woods near Port Townsend, Washington in the late 1970?s is being made available for sale and our vision is to create a retreat for poets, scholars and painters to build on the remarkable legacy that has been created here in that time by the poet/ scholar/editor and his wife, painter, Gray Foster. We envision purchasing the property from Hamill and Foster, with additional funding to ensure ten years of administration to facilitate retreats by individual artists and couples ranging from one week to three months. These would be made possible through a competitive application process and through partner organizations. The retreat would be made available for rental for writing retreats, but there would be time built into the yearly calendar allowing need-based writers to stay free as Kage-an Fellows. Sam Hamill, and his estate in the event of his death, would be involved in the process of deciding what artists use the facility, thereby continuing the focus of his legacy. The current value of the property is $350,000 and we propose a budget of $500,000, with $400,000 going to Hamill and Foster, with the remaining $100,000 earmarked for ten years of administration. We envision writers and painters with a focus similar to Hamill?s and Foster?s legacy, including, but not limited to Engaged Buddhism, Chinese and Japanese poetry, the work of Kenneth Rexroth and other west coast poets and contemporary painters in the Northwest tradition, including those inspired by Morris Graves, Mark Tobey and others. Although writers with the focus outlined here would have primary consideration, we would ensure it becomes a place welcoming to writers and painters of varied backgrounds and scholarship and would welcome partnerships with organizations interested in helping facilitate the experience of Kage-an for serious artists. Sam adds: "One of the major points about leaving Kage-an is my heart condition and my Drs being nearly 90 minutes away. In Anacortes they'll be five or ten minutes away.And if we manage to pull this rabbit our of the hat, I will leave behind a very nearly complete library of my years as Editor of Copper Canyon Press, plus many others books, totaling several thousand, probably." Paul Nelson Seattle, WA 2.16.10206.422.5002 Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! C. City, WA 206.422.5002 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:55:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:55:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Obododimma Oha on RECONFIGURATIONS, Vol. 3: special features (4 of 4) Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002210055tc945b40s37d6c28db041306e@mail.gmail.com> Forwarding from the Buffalo, sent by Scott Howard: * * * Obododimma Oha, ed. Preface to "BAOBAB TREE: LOCAL KNOWLEDGE / GLOBAL POLITICS" http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/2009/11/obododimma-oha-embracing-baobab-tree.html ?Knowledge is like a baobab tree; no one can embrace it with both arms??Ewe Proverb "Resistance to Western hegemony in the sphere of knowledge production has been around for quite a while and continues to be an issue in contemporary cultural studies. In theory and artistic representations, one continues to witness the struggle against assumptions built upon the supremacy of Western ideas, identity, expressions, etc. There has also been a robust counter-critique of the resistance rhetoric from non-Western scholars who try to show that anti-Western oppositional practices are not totally free from the same posture they want to dismantle." http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/2009/11/baobab-tree-local-knowledge-global.html * * * -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 04:28:40 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:28:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Celebrating Caravaggio: First Of The Bad-Boy Artists by Silvia Poggioli Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002210128l534425bct39821d15af630fc8@mail.gmail.com> As one of his biographers wrote, "Bad luck did not abandon him." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123892179 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 05:11:39 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:11:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> A beautiful poem; I am picking up now with the hundreds of mails waiting to be read. I was reminded of Faulkner, but here, although we perceive the same anguishing feeling, there is the brevity of poetry that successfully conveys the common anxiety of children, together with an industrial world that pushes heavily and breaks into the frail personal sphere of the self. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Thanks, Al, > > I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! > > Best, > > Judy > > On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: > >> And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 06:05:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:05:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Lynch profile In-Reply-To: <8CC7C623538422E-4BBC-1F911@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC7C623538422E-4BBC-1F911@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002210305h1e07e57qcd9dcfcd23d22ea8@mail.gmail.com> Well, he also has quite a surname. (Of the silly series...) On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, wrote: > > http://www.freep.com/article/20100214/FEATURES05/2140307/1322/Lynch-explores-the-human-condition > > Sex and death, the Irish poet Yeats said, are the only things that can > interest a serious mind. > > And Thomas Lynch has a serious mind. > > The proprietor of Lynch & Sons Funeral Home in Milford since 1974, Lynch is > likely the most recognized undertaker in the English-speaking world thanks > to his part-time job as an internationally renowned writer and poet. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 21 11:33:15 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:33:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> Message-ID: <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually > -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. > Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui > generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It > is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written > now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like > Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. ----------------------------------------------------- Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what I've observed. And I definitely include myself in the generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 21 11:52:23 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:52:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4B8164C7.1080505@nut-n-but.net> > When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the > poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in > what seemed like exciting directions: Not all of them, David. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 12:12:47 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:12:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> Message-ID: My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider tradition. I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local was inconceivable. Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his death, the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by the National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. From what I understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, and we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just our age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond their age mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. Best, Mark At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > >>In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>-- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >----------------------------------------------------- > >Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my >own experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and >as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. > >When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the >poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in >what seemed like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, >Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, >like Tate, Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were just starting >to make the first splash. Took me a while to come around to the New >Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. > >I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with >formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me >for a good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about >the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. > >When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of >poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting >on what I've observed. And I definitely include myself in the >generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like >the normal way of things. And besides, by The Tradition I was >thinking not of relatively recent poets like Bishop and Frost. I >was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. > > > > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Feb 21 15:17:10 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:17:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. Mark Weiss wrote: > My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is > also diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and > wider tradition. > > I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a > name but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two > old. And very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than > their own and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of > curiosity. > > I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I > nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger > and had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't > alone--every young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. > Of course we missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the > present and local was inconceivable. > > Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his > death, the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was > published by the National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter > Poems by my Junction Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, > on the Buffalo list. One would think it should have been an easy sell. > I also offered very slightly hurt copies at little more than cost. > Result: three sales. >From what I understand National Poetry > Foundation had the same luck. > > I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in > innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on > a list devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. > > I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that > the audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being > across age cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a > reading/performance that paired Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. > An amazing event, and there was a respectable house. Problem is, > almost no one was under fifty. > > Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined > peers, and we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers > aren't just our age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've > internalized. I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets who've > internalized much beyond their age mates, their teachers and a couple > of celebrities. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > >> On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> >>> In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>> -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>> Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>> generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>> is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>> now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>> Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> >> Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my >> own experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and >> as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. >> >> When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the >> poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in >> what seemed like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, >> Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, >> like Tate, Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were just starting to >> make the first splash. Took me a while to come around to the New >> Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. >> >> I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with >> formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me >> for a good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about >> the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >> >> When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of >> poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on >> what I've observed. And I definitely include myself in the >> generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the >> normal way of things. And besides, by The Tradition I was thinking >> not of relatively recent poets like Bishop and Frost. I was thinking >> Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 15:30:06 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:30:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> Message-ID: I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but nontheless not very broad in their reading. At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some >of us (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty >much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is >>also diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer >>and wider tradition. >> >>I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing >>a name but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade >>or two old. And very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other >>than their own and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking >>lack of curiosity. >> >>I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I >>nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was >>younger and had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I >>wasn't alone--every young poet who stuck with the vocation was much >>the same. Of course we missed a lot for want of knowledge. But >>privileging the present and local was inconceivable. >> >>Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of >>his death, the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was >>published by the National Poetry Foundation and his Selected >>Shorter Poems by my Junction Press. I offered the latter, deeply >>discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would think it should have >>been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly hurt copies at >>little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I understand >>National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. >> >>I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in >>innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet >>on a list devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. >> >>I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking >>that the audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions >>being across age cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a >>reading/performance that paired Jerry Rothenberg and Alison >>Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a respectable house. >>Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. >> >>Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined >>peers, and we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined >>peers aren't just our age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets >>we've internalized. I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets >>who've internalized much beyond their age mates, their teachers and >>a couple of celebrities. >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >> >>At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >> >> >>>On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >>> >>>>In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>>>-- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>>>Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>>>generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>>>is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>>>now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>>>Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >>>----------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my >>>own experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days >>>and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. >>>When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all >>>the poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American >>>poetry in what seemed like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, >>>Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . . And >>>even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who >>>were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a while to >>>come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love >>>the long tradition. >>>I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with >>>formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me >>>for a good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all >>>about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >>>When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense >>>of poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but >>>commenting on what I've observed. And I definitely include myself >>>in the generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, >>>anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And besides, by The >>>Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like >>>Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>>David Graham >>>grahamd at ripon.edu >>> >>>Home Page: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>>Poetry Library: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* >>(University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book >>of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the >>United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems >>in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in >>/The Nation/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 15:35:23 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:35:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) I never said much against psychologists, maybe I should, and on all the lists, what a b o u t that? On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be > older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about > younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but > nontheless not very broad in their reading. > > > At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us > (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody > when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also > diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider > tradition. > > I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name > but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And > very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that > of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. > > I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I > nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and > had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every > young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we > missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local > was inconceivable. > > Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his death, > the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by the > National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction > Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One > would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly > hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I > understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. > > I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in > innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list > devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. > > I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the > audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age > cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired > Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a > respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. > > Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, and > we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just our > age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I haven't > met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond their age > mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > > In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually > -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. > Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui > generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It > is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written > now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like > Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own > experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a > teacher observing younger writers coming along. > When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets > who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed > like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, > Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, > Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a > while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love > the long tradition. > I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with formalists > like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a good long > time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by Galway > Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. > When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of poetic > history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what I've > observed. And I definitely include myself in the generalization--myself as > I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And > besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like > Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 15:51:17 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:51:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.co m> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd probably ascribe any criticism to transference. Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative writing (Iowa 1936) made very little difference because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have drastically changed the landscape of American poetry by offering the possibility of a middle class career. It's not surprising that that should have an effect on who decides to dedicate themselves to the art. A massive change in the economics of any endeavor always does. There's also the question of professionalization, a new option for poets. Would have been handy in dealing with my father, who thought my dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything has its costs. On the other hand, poets now have conventions to go to, just like the Shriners. At any rate, I'm talking about a generational divide that happens to coincide with the increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) >I never said much against psychologists, maybe I >should, and on all the lists, what a b o u t that? > > >On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who >of course tend to be older. That's the real >generational divide. And note that I'm talking >about younger poets some of them in their early >40s now, almost all with MFAs but nontheless not very broad in their reading. > > >At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>I think some of us here were the exceptions >>even back then, and some of us (like me) really >>didn't know all that much. I had read pretty >>much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. >> >>Mark Weiss wrote: >>>My experience, both as an occasional teacher >>>and as an observer is also diametrically >>>opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider tradition. >>> >>>I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in >>>the form of recognizing a name but knowing >>>none of the work, of even poetry only a decade >>>or two old. And very little awareness of >>>tendencies in poetry other than their own and >>>that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. >>> >>>I had a very good education, but no formal >>>education as a writer. I nonetheless read >>>everything I could get my hands on when I was >>>younger and had the time (still do, within the >>>limits of time). I wasn't alone--every young >>>poet who stuck with the vocation was much the >>>same. Of course we missed a lot for want of >>>knowledge. But privileging the present and local was inconceivable. >>> >>>Here's a graphic example of the difference. In >>>1998, the year of his death, the final version >>>of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was >>>published by the National Poetry Foundation >>>and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction >>>Press. I offered the latter, deeply >>>discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would >>>think it should have been an easy sell. I also >>>offered very slightly hurt copies at little >>>more than cost. Result: three sales. >From >>>what I understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. >>> >>>I don't think there's much argument that for >>>anyone interested in innovative or >>>experimental poetry these are cornerstone >>>texts. Yet on a list devoted to the innovative >>>there was barely a murmur of interest. >>> >>>I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in >>>NY. It's striking that the audiences rarely >>>cross lines, the most obvious divisions being >>>across age cohorts. I'm thinking particularly >>>about a reading/performance that paired Jerry >>>Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing >>>event, and there was a respectable house. >>>Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. >>> >>>Part of what we hope for as poets is the >>>respect of our imagined peers, and we write >>>partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined >>>peers aren't just our age mates, it's the >>>crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I >>>haven't met a whole lot of younger poets >>>who've internalized much beyond their age >>>mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>Mark >>> >>>At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >>>> >>>>>In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>>>>-- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>>>>Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>>>>generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>>>>is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>>>>now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>>>>Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >>>>----------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>Most interesting, and pretty much >>>>diametrically the opposite of my own >>>>experience, both as an evolving poet in my >>>>starting-out days and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. >>>>When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I >>>>was mad about all the poets who were then >>>>relatively "new" and taking American poetry >>>>in what seemed like exciting >>>>directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, >>>>Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . >>>>. And even younger ones, like Tate, >>>>Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were >>>>just starting to make the first splash. Took >>>>me a while to come around to the New >>>>Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. >>>>I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology >>>>staples, along with formalists like Hecht and >>>>Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for >>>>a good long time. In contrast, my friends >>>>and I were all about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >>>>When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to >>>>lack much of a sense of poetic history, by >>>>the way, I wasn't casting stones but >>>>commenting on what I've observed. And I >>>>definitely include myself in the >>>>generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, >>>>anyhow. Seems like the normal way of >>>>things. And besides, by The Tradition I was >>>>thinking not of relatively recent poets like >>>>Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>======================================== >>>>David Graham >>>>grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>>> >>>>Home Page: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>>> >>>>Poetry Library: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>>========================================== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>>Cuban Poetry* (University of California Press). >>>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >>> >>>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>>Auster's /Random House Book of Twentieth >>>Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual >>>anthology so effectively broadened the sense >>>of poetic terrain outside the United States >>>and also created a superb collection of >>>foreign poems in English. There is nothing >>>else like it." John Palattella in /The >>>Nation/ >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >>-- >>Tad Richards >>Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:19:58 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:19:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002211319i2691f29cnbe0fc6619c44f8bf@mail.gmail.com> I think you should leave us alone. What about the economists? The historians, the archeologists, the doctors, the what-have-you-not? Just leave us alone. I did not change a bit and I read all what I could. Okay? Thank you very much. On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd probably ascribe any criticism > to transference. > > Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative writing (Iowa 1936) made > very little difference because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 > years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have drastically changed the > landscape of American poetry by offering the possibility of a middle class > career. It's not surprising that that should have an effect on who decides > to dedicate themselves to the art. A massive change in the economics of any > endeavor always does. There's also the question of professionalization, a > new option for poets. Would have been handy in dealing with my father, who > thought my dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything > has its costs. > > On the other hand, poets now have conventions to go to, just like the > Shriners. > > At any rate, I'm talking about a generational divide that happens to > coincide with the increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. > > > At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) > I never said much against psychologists, maybe I should, and on all the > lists, what a b o u t that? > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be > older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about > younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but > nontheless not very broad in their reading. > > > At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us > (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody > when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also > diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider > tradition. > > I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name > but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And > very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that > of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. > > I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I > nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and > had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every > young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we > missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local > was inconceivable. > > Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his death, > the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by the > National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction > Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One > would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly > hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I > understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. > > I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in > innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list > devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. > > I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the > audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age > cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired > Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a > respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. > > Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, and > we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just our > age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I haven't > met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond their age > mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > > In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually > -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. > Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui > generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It > is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written > now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like > Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own > experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a > teacher observing younger writers coming along. > When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets > who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed > like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, > Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, > Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a > while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love > the long tradition. > I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with formalists > like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a good long > time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by Galway > Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. > When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of poetic > history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what I've > observed. And I definitely include myself in the generalization--myself as > I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And > besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like > Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:21:54 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:21:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002211321l5e40520el808186782ec76637@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Anny. I appreciate the comment. I did have anxiety in mind, most certainly; I was also working with a child's fear of the unknown, which is often shaped (at least in my experience) through an adult's perceptions (overheard snatches of conversation, a general feeling of foreboding, etc.). Best, Jeff Newberry On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > A beautiful poem; I am picking up now with the hundreds of mails waiting to > be read. I was reminded of Faulkner, but here, although we perceive the same > anguishing feeling, there is the brevity of poetry that successfully conveys > the common anxiety of children, together with an industrial world that > pushes heavily and breaks into the frail personal sphere of the self. > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Judy Prince < > jbalizsprince at googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks, Al, >> >> I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: >> >>> And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Feb 21 16:37:31 2010 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002211321l5e40520el808186782ec76637@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com><7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1002211321l5e40520el808186782ec76637@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC8155350785DA-664-1EAB@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com> My chapbook Between States will be issued in May by Main Street Rag Press. You can order advance copies for only $3.50 (half the cover price) as of now. You can see the cover, my handsome mug and read a few sample poems by clicking on the attachments below. http://www.mainstreetrag.com/AMaginnes.html http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ComingSoon.php http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ This is the first time a press has ever approached me, so I'm pleased about that. I'm also pleased at the relative ease with which this all seemed to come together. Al -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toot Thanks, Anny. I appreciate the comment. I did have anxiety in mind, most certainly; I was also working with a child's fear of the unknown, which is often shaped (at least in my experience) through an adult's perceptions (overheard snatches of conversation, a general feeling of foreboding, etc.). Best, Jeff Newberry On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: A beautiful poem; I am picking up now with the hundreds of mails waiting to be read. I was reminded of Faulkner, but here, although we perceive the same anguishing feeling, there is the brevity of poetry that successfully conveys the common anxiety of children, together with an industrial world that pushes heavily and breaks into the frail personal sphere of the self. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Judy Prince wrote: Thanks, Al, I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! Best, Judy On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:40:11 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:40:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <8CC8155350785DA-664-1EAB@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1002211321l5e40520el808186782ec76637@mail.gmail.com> <8CC8155350785DA-664-1EAB@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1002211340y79cd0879v65503a8808ea4843@mail.gmail.com> Congrats, my friend! This is wonderful news. Best, Jeff On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, wrote: > My chapbook *Between States* will be issued in May by Main Street Rag > Press. You can order advance copies for only $3.50 (half the cover price) as > of now. You can see the cover, my handsome mug and read a few sample poems > by clicking on the attachments below. > > *http://www.mainstreetrag.com/AMaginnes.html* > http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ComingSoon.php > http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ > > This is the first time a press has ever approached me, so I'm pleased about > that. I'm also pleased at the relative ease with which this all seemed to > come together. > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 4:21 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toot > > Thanks, Anny. > > I appreciate the comment. I did have anxiety in mind, most certainly; I > was also working with a child's fear of the unknown, which is often shaped > (at least in my experience) through an adult's perceptions (overheard > snatches of conversation, a general feeling of foreboding, etc.). > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> A beautiful poem; I am picking up now with the hundreds of mails waiting >> to be read. I was reminded of Faulkner, but here, although we perceive the >> same anguishing feeling, there is the brevity of poetry that successfully >> conveys the common anxiety of children, together with an industrial world >> that pushes heavily and breaks into the frail personal sphere of the self. >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Judy Prince < >> jbalizsprince at googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Al, >>> >>> I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: >>> >>>> And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >>> >>> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:43:38 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:43:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1002211340y79cd0879v65503a8808ea4843@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d41.2d142888.38aabdca@aol.com> <7db1d01b1002151445s4480dea5tece25517eef2ef4a@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002210211o5d365807kcb61cb85e3af3aee@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1002211321l5e40520el808186782ec76637@mail.gmail.com> <8CC8155350785DA-664-1EAB@webmail-m034.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1002211340y79cd0879v65503a8808ea4843@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002211343g37faee6dm70ae9f2b80289512@mail.gmail.com> Indeed! Each book is a new treasure when it comes out, :-) On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Congrats, my friend! > > This is wonderful news. > > Best, > Jeff > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, wrote: > >> My chapbook *Between States* will be issued in May by Main Street Rag >> Press. You can order advance copies for only $3.50 (half the cover price) as >> of now. You can see the cover, my handsome mug and read a few sample poems >> by clicking on the attachments below. >> >> *http://www.mainstreetrag.com/AMaginnes.html* >> http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ComingSoon.php >> http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ >> >> This is the first time a press has ever approached me, so I'm pleased >> about that. I'm also pleased at the relative ease with which this all seemed >> to come together. >> >> Al >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Newberry >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 4:21 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toot >> >> Thanks, Anny. >> >> I appreciate the comment. I did have anxiety in mind, most certainly; I >> was also working with a child's fear of the unknown, which is often shaped >> (at least in my experience) through an adult's perceptions (overheard >> snatches of conversation, a general feeling of foreboding, etc.). >> >> Best, >> Jeff Newberry >> >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A beautiful poem; I am picking up now with the hundreds of mails waiting >>> to be read. I was reminded of Faulkner, but here, although we perceive the >>> same anguishing feeling, there is the brevity of poetry that successfully >>> conveys the common anxiety of children, together with an industrial world >>> that pushes heavily and breaks into the frail personal sphere of the self. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Judy Prince < >>> jbalizsprince at googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Al, >>>> >>>> I quite agree. Sorry, Jeff, that I didnae make that obvious to you! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Judy >>>> >>>> On 15 February 2010 10:10, wrote: >>>> >>>>> And a damn good poem, as I told you earlier. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >>>> >>>> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>> Giovenale >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:49:57 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:49:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> One, poets in the MFA programs in the 60s and early 70s were older to begin with, a number with a book or maybe two already, and everyone I met was well-read. Two, back then there were a handful of MFA programs, at best. Career? No. Most of us got the MFA and were tossed back into the great ocean without any guidance whatsoever. Except, of course, with a wider network. Things change. - Jim On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd probably ascribe any criticism > to transference. > > Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative writing (Iowa 1936) made > very little difference because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 > years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have drastically changed the > landscape of American poetry by offering the possibility of a middle class > career. It's not surprising that that should have an effect on who decides > to dedicate themselves to the art. A massive change in the economics of any > endeavor always does. There's also the question of professionalization, a > new option for poets. Would have been handy in dealing with my father, who > thought my dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything > has its costs. > > On the other hand, poets now have conventions to go to, just like the > Shriners. > > At any rate, I'm talking about a generational divide that happens to > coincide with the increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. > > > At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) > I never said much against psychologists, maybe I should, and on all the > lists, what a b o u t that? > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be > older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about > younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but > nontheless not very broad in their reading. > > > At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us > (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody > when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also > diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider > tradition. > > I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name > but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And > very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that > of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. > > I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I > nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and > had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every > young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we > missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local > was inconceivable. > > Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his death, > the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by the > National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction > Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One > would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly > hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I > understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. > > I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in > innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list > devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. > > I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the > audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age > cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired > Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a > respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. > > Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, and > we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just our > age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I haven't > met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond their age > mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > > In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually > -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. > Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui > generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It > is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written > now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like > Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own > experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a > teacher observing younger writers coming along. > When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets > who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed > like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, > Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, > Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a > while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love > the long tradition. > I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with formalists > like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a good long > time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by Galway > Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. > When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of poetic > history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what I've > observed. And I definitely include myself in the generalization--myself as > I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And > besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like > Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Feb 21 16:56:47 2010 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:56:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com><44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu><4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org><4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC8157E63773AA-1958-1CFAA@webmail-d005.sysops.aol.com> The "possibility of a middle class career" probably doesn't attract a lot of students to MFA programs. For starters, most creative writing students I've met (with notable exceptions) come from middle class or better backgrounds. For them, even an assistant prof's pay is considerably less income than they grew up with. I don't think the idea of getting a job occurred to me when I went off to my MFA. My wife at the time and I thought that we'd get done with school and buy a farm or something. My first job after the MFA was working construction. -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis One, poets in the MFA programs in the 60s and early 70s were older to begin with, a number with a book or maybe two already, and everyone I met was well-read. Two, back then there were a handful of MFA programs, at best. Career? No. Most of us got the MFA and were tossed back into the great ocean without any guidance whatsoever. Except, of course, with a wider network. Things change. - Jim On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd probably ascribe any criticism to transference. Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative writing (Iowa 1936) made very little difference because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have drastically changed the landscape of American poetry by offering the possibility of a middle class career. It's not surprising that that should have an effect on who decides to dedicate themselves to the art. A massive change in the economics of any endeavor always does. There's also the question of professionalization, a new option for poets. Would have been handy in dealing with my father, who thought my dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything has its costs. On the other hand, poets now have conventions to go to, just like the Shriners. At any rate, I'm talking about a generational divide that happens to coincide with the increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) I never said much against psychologists, maybe I should, and on all the lists, what a b o u t that? On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but nontheless not very broad in their reading. At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. Mark Weiss wrote: My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider tradition. I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local was inconceivable. Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his death, the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by the National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, and we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just our age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond their age mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. Best, Mark At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. ----------------------------------------------------- Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what I've observed. And I definitely include myself in the generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of things. And besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of relatively recent poets like Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The Nation/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 17:41:20 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:41:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <8CC8157E63773AA-1958-1CFAA@webmail-d005.sysops.aol.com> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> <8CC8157E63773AA-1958-1CFAA@webmail-d005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Check out the hungry mobs at AWP conventions. That salaries are low doesn't dissuade them any more than it dissuades other middle class kids from pursuing other academic disciplines with similar rewards. It's I think silly to take this personally. I'm not suggesting that everyone with an MFA is lacking--it's not a scarlet acronym. Virtually everyone who would have become a poet before professionalization, who was totally obsessed with the art and read everything they could get their hands on still do become poets, but now they get MFAs as well. A great many others never would have persevered without professionalization, and in most cases that would have been just fine. They're the ones I'm talking about. We can go back and forth about the virtues of professionalization, and I've engaged that issue repeatedly. But it's not what I'm doing in this instance. I was merely reporting what I've observed about a particular sample of poets roughly under 40, virtually all of them with MFAs. I doubt that getting MFAs resulted in their limited curiosity, although the tendency to group by cohort probably does. But if I'm going to comment about the reading habits of younger poets I don't know what other sample I could choose. Enough. If you want to argue with me engage the issue at hand. At 04:56 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >The "possibility of a middle class career" >probably doesn't attract a lot of students to >MFA programs. For starters, most creative >writing students I've met (with notable >exceptions) come from middle class or better >backgrounds. For them, even an assistant prof's >pay is considerably less income than they grew >up with. I don't think the idea of getting a job >occurred to me when I went off to my MFA. My >wife at the time and I thought that we'd get >done with school and buy a farm or something. My >first job after the MFA was working construction. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: James Cervantes >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&,Views >Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 4:49 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis > >One, poets in the MFA programs in the 60s and >early 70s were older to begin with, a number >with a book or maybe two already, and everyone I >met was well-read. Two, back then there were a >handful of MFA programs, at best. Career? >No. Most of us got the MFA and were tossed back >into the great ocean without any guidance >whatsoever. Except, of course, with a wider network. Things change. > >- Jim > >On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd >probably ascribe any criticism to transference. > >Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative >writing (Iowa 1936) made very little difference >because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 >years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have >drastically changed the landscape of American >poetry by offering the possibility of a middle >class career. It's not surprising that that >should have an effect on who decides to dedicate >themselves to the art. A massive change in the >economics of any endeavor always does. There's >also the question of professionalization, a new >option for poets. Would have been handy in >dealing with my father, who thought my >dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything has its costs. > >On the other hand, poets now have conventions to >go to, just like the Shriners. > >At any rate, I'm talking about a generational >divide that happens to coincide with the >increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. > > >At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) >>I never said much against psychologists, maybe >>I should, and on all the lists, what a b o u t that? >> >> >>On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss >><junction at earthlink.net > wrote: >>I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who >>of course tend to be older. That's the real >>generational divide. And note that I'm talking >>about younger poets some of them in their early >>40s now, almost all with MFAs but nontheless not very broad in their reading. >> >>At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>>I think some of us here were the exceptions >>>even back then, and some of us (like me) >>>really didn't know all that much. I had read >>>pretty much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and >>>I didn't become well read overnight. >>> >>>Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>My experience, both as an occasional teacher >>>>and as an observer is also diametrically >>>>opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider tradition. >>>>I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in >>>>the form of recognizing a name but knowing >>>>none of the work, of even poetry only a >>>>decade or two old. And very little awareness >>>>of tendencies in poetry other than their own >>>>and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. >>>>I had a very good education, but no formal >>>>education as a writer. I nonetheless read >>>>everything I could get my hands on when I was >>>>younger and had the time (still do, within >>>>the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every >>>>young poet who stuck with the vocation was >>>>much the same. Of course we missed a lot for >>>>want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local was inconceivable. >>>>Here's a graphic example of the difference. >>>>In 1998, the year of his death, the final >>>>version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was >>>>published by the National Poetry Foundation >>>>and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction >>>>Press. I offered the latter, deeply >>>>discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would >>>>think it should have been an easy sell. I >>>>also offered very slightly hurt copies at >>>>little more than cost. Result: three >>>>sales. >From what I understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. >>>>I don't think there's much argument that for >>>>anyone interested in innovative or >>>>experimental poetry these are cornerstone >>>>texts. Yet on a list devoted to the >>>>innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. >>>>I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's >>>>in NY. It's striking that the audiences >>>>rarely cross lines, the most obvious >>>>divisions being across age cohorts. I'm >>>>thinking particularly about a >>>>reading/performance that paired Jerry >>>>Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing >>>>event, and there was a respectable house. >>>>Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. >>>>Part of what we hope for as poets is the >>>>respect of our imagined peers, and we write >>>>partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined >>>>peers aren't just our age mates, it's the >>>>crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. >>>>I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets >>>>who've internalized much beyond their age >>>>mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. >>>>Best, >>>>Mark >>>>At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>>>>>-- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>>>>>Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>>>>>generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>>>>>is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>>>>>now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>>>>>Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >>>>>----------------------------------------------------- >>>>>Most interesting, and pretty much >>>>>diametrically the opposite of my own >>>>>experience, both as an evolving poet in my >>>>>starting-out days and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. >>>>>When I was beginning in poetry, in college, >>>>>I was mad about all the poets who were then >>>>>relatively "new" and taking American poetry >>>>>in what seemed like exciting >>>>>directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, >>>>>Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . >>>>>. And even younger ones, like Tate, >>>>>Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were >>>>>just starting to make the first >>>>>splash. Took me a while to come around to >>>>>the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. >>>>>I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology >>>>>staples, along with formalists like Hecht >>>>>and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me >>>>>for a good long time. In contrast, my >>>>>friends and I were all about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >>>>>When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to >>>>>lack much of a sense of poetic history, by >>>>>the way, I wasn't casting stones but >>>>>commenting on what I've observed. And I >>>>>definitely include myself in the >>>>>generalization--myself as I was 30 years >>>>>ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of >>>>>things. And besides, by The Tradition I was >>>>>thinking not of relatively recent poets like >>>>>Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>======================================== >>>>>David Graham >>>>>grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>>>>Home Page: >>>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>>>>Poetry Library: >>>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>>> >>>>>========================================== >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>>>Cuban Poetry* (University of California Press). >>>>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >>>>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>>>Auster's /Random House Book of Twentieth >>>>Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual >>>>anthology so effectively broadened the sense >>>>of poetic terrain outside the United States >>>>and also created a superb collection of >>>>foreign poems in English. There is nothing >>>>else like it." John Palattella in /The >>>>Nation/ >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>-- >>>Tad Richards >>>Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to >>give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? >>Giovenale >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 17:54:50 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:54:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What's an MFA program? Anything like The Lone Ranger? Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 3:49 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > One, poets in the MFA programs in the 60s and early 70s were older to begin > with, a number with a book or maybe two already, and everyone I met was > well-read. Two, back then there were a handful of MFA programs, at best. > Career? No. Most of us got the MFA and were tossed back into the great > ocean without any guidance whatsoever. Except, of course, with a wider > network. Things change. > > - Jim > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd probably ascribe any criticism >> to transference. >> >> Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative writing (Iowa 1936) made >> very little difference because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 >> years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have drastically changed the >> landscape of American poetry by offering the possibility of a middle class >> career. It's not surprising that that should have an effect on who decides >> to dedicate themselves to the art. A massive change in the economics of any >> endeavor always does. There's also the question of professionalization, a >> new option for poets. Would have been handy in dealing with my father, who >> thought my dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything >> has its costs. >> >> On the other hand, poets now have conventions to go to, just like the >> Shriners. >> >> At any rate, I'm talking about a generational divide that happens to >> coincide with the increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. >> >> >> At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >> >> uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) >> I never said much against psychologists, maybe I should, and on all the >> lists, what a b o u t that? >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >> I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who of course tend to be >> older. That's the real generational divide. And note that I'm talking about >> younger poets some of them in their early 40s now, almost all with MFAs but >> nontheless not very broad in their reading. >> >> >> At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >> >> I think some of us here were the exceptions even back then, and some of us >> (like me) really didn't know all that much. I had read pretty much nobody >> when I arrived at Iowa, and I didn't become well read overnight. >> >> Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> My experience, both as an occasional teacher and as an observer is also >> diametrically opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider >> tradition. >> >> I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in the form of recognizing a name >> but knowing none of the work, of even poetry only a decade or two old. And >> very little awareness of tendencies in poetry other than their own and that >> of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. >> >> I had a very good education, but no formal education as a writer. I >> nonetheless read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger and >> had the time (still do, within the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every >> young poet who stuck with the vocation was much the same. Of course we >> missed a lot for want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local >> was inconceivable. >> >> Here's a graphic example of the difference. In 1998, the year of his >> death, the final version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was published by >> the National Poetry Foundation and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction >> Press. I offered the latter, deeply discounted, on the Buffalo list. One >> would think it should have been an easy sell. I also offered very slightly >> hurt copies at little more than cost. Result: three sales. >From what I >> understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. >> >> I don't think there's much argument that for anyone interested in >> innovative or experimental poetry these are cornerstone texts. Yet on a list >> devoted to the innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. >> >> I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's in NY. It's striking that the >> audiences rarely cross lines, the most obvious divisions being across age >> cohorts. I'm thinking particularly about a reading/performance that paired >> Jerry Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing event, and there was a >> respectable house. Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. >> >> Part of what we hope for as poets is the respect of our imagined peers, >> and we write partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined peers aren't just >> our age mates, it's the crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. I >> haven't met a whole lot of younger poets who've internalized much beyond >> their age mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> >> In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >> -- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >> Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >> generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >> is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >> now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >> Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> >> Most interesting, and pretty much diametrically the opposite of my own >> experience, both as an evolving poet in my starting-out days and as a >> teacher observing younger writers coming along. >> When I was beginning in poetry, in college, I was mad about all the poets >> who were then relatively "new" and taking American poetry in what seemed >> like exciting directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, Ginsberg, Snyder, >> Levertov, Merwin. . . . And even younger ones, like Tate, Matthews, Simic, >> Forche, et al., who were just starting to make the first splash. Took me a >> while to come around to the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love >> the long tradition. >> I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology staples, along with >> formalists like Hecht and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me for a >> good long time. In contrast, my friends and I were all about the latest by >> Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >> When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to lack much of a sense of >> poetic history, by the way, I wasn't casting stones but commenting on what >> I've observed. And I definitely include myself in the >> generalization--myself as I was 30 years ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal >> way of things. And besides, by The Tradition I was thinking not of >> relatively recent poets like Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, >> Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu > >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in /The >> Nation/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in The Nation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University >> of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 21 18:15:52 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:15:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7AF86182-7E50-4095-86A0-82E51E649631@ripon.edu> On Feb 21, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > What's an MFA program? Anything like The Lone Ranger? > > Hal =================== Highly in dispute, I'm afraid. Some say it stands for May Feel Awkward. Others go for Many Fine Arguments or Mighty Fat Ass. . . . DG, MFA 1980, UMASS ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 18:17:33 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com> <44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu> <4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org> <4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com> <648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Minus the white horse. At 05:54 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >What's an MFA program? Anything like The Lone Ranger? > >Hal > >"Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." > --Mikhail Horowitz > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 3:49 PM, James Cervantes ><cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: >One, poets in the MFA programs in the 60s and >early 70s were older to begin with, a number >with a book or maybe two already, and everyone I >met was well-read. Two, back then there were a >handful of MFA programs, at best. Career? >No. Most of us got the MFA and were tossed back >into the great ocean without any guidance >whatsoever. Except, of course, with a wider network. Things change. > >- Jim > > >On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >I'm not a psycho;ogist, but if I were I'd >probably ascribe any criticism to transference. > >Look, the advent of academic degrees in creative >writing (Iowa 1936) made very little difference >because they were extremely rare. In the past 40 >years MFA programs (now almost 500 of them) have >drastically changed the landscape of American >poetry by offering the possibility of a middle >class career. It's not surprising that that >should have an effect on who decides to dedicate >themselves to the art. A massive change in the >economics of any endeavor always does. There's >also the question of professionalization, a new >option for poets. Would have been handy in >dealing with my father, who thought my >dedication to poetry more than a little depraved. But everything has its costs. > >On the other hand, poets now have conventions to >go to, just like the Shriners. > >At any rate, I'm talking about a generational >divide that happens to coincide with the >increasing dominance of the MFA, and what I've observed. > > >At 03:35 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>uaaaa, uaaaa here we go again with the MFA story (?) >>I never said much against psychologists, maybe >>I should, and on all the lists, what a b o u t that? >> >> >>On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mark Weiss >><junction at earthlink.net > wrote: >>I think the contrast is with non-MFA poets, who >>of course tend to be older. That's the real >>generational divide. And note that I'm talking >>about younger poets some of them in their early >>40s now, almost all with MFAs but nontheless not very broad in their reading. >> >>At 03:17 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>>I think some of us here were the exceptions >>>even back then, and some of us (like me) >>>really didn't know all that much. I had read >>>pretty much nobody when I arrived at Iowa, and >>>I didn't become well read overnight. >>>Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>My experience, both as an occasional teacher >>>>and as an observer is also diametrically >>>>opposed, and I'm also talking about the longer and wider tradition. >>>>I've noticed a profound ignorance, often in >>>>the form of recognizing a name but knowing >>>>none of the work, of even poetry only a >>>>decade or two old. And very little awareness >>>>of tendencies in poetry other than their own >>>>and that of their nearest cohort. A to me shocking lack of curiosity. >>>> >>>>I had a very good education, but no formal >>>>education as a writer. I nonetheless read >>>>everything I could get my hands on when I was >>>>younger and had the time (still do, within >>>>the limits of time). I wasn't alone--every >>>>young poet who stuck with the vocation was >>>>much the same. Of course we missed a lot for >>>>want of knowledge. But privileging the present and local was inconceivable. >>>>Here's a graphic example of the difference. >>>>In 1998, the year of his death, the final >>>>version of Armand Schwerner's The Tablets was >>>>published by the National Poetry Foundation >>>>and his Selected Shorter Poems by my Junction >>>>Press. I offered the latter, deeply >>>>discounted, on the Buffalo list. One would >>>>think it should have been an easy sell. I >>>>also offered very slightly hurt copies at >>>>little more than cost. Result: three >>>>sales. >From what I understand National Poetry Foundation had the same luck. >>>>I don't think there's much argument that for >>>>anyone interested in innovative or >>>>experimental poetry these are cornerstone >>>>texts. Yet on a list devoted to the >>>>innovative there was barely a murmur of interest. >>>>I also go to a lot of readings at St Mark's >>>>in NY. It's striking that the audiences >>>>rarely cross lines, the most obvious >>>>divisions being across age cohorts. I'm >>>>thinking particularly about a >>>>reading/performance that paired Jerry >>>>Rothenberg and Alison Knowles. An amazing >>>>event, and there was a respectable house. >>>>Problem is, almost no one was under fifty. >>>>Part of what we hope for as poets is the >>>>respect of our imagined peers, and we write >>>>partly in dialogue with them. Our imagined >>>>peers aren't just our age mates, it's the >>>>crowd of poems and poets we've internalized. >>>>I haven't met a whole lot of younger poets >>>>who've internalized much beyond their age >>>>mates, their teachers and a couple of celebrities. >>>>Best, >>>>Mark >>>>At 11:33 AM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In any case, their seems to be a lot of backlash -- pretty continually >>>>>>-- about beginning poets NOT knowing anything about previous poets. >>>>>>Except for very young open mike poets who want very much to be sui >>>>>>generis but aren't, I have not found this to be the case at all. It >>>>>>is rare for young poets to have a good sense of what's being written >>>>>>now. It is *still* pretty common for new poets to want to write like >>>>>>Frost, except that they haven't really read Frost well. >>>>>----------------------------------------------------- >>>>>Most interesting, and pretty much >>>>>diametrically the opposite of my own >>>>>experience, both as an evolving poet in my >>>>>starting-out days and as a teacher observing younger writers coming along. >>>>>When I was beginning in poetry, in college, >>>>>I was mad about all the poets who were then >>>>>relatively "new" and taking American poetry >>>>>in what seemed like exciting >>>>>directions: Rich, Bly, Kinnell, Wright, >>>>>Ginsberg, Snyder, Levertov, Merwin. . . >>>>>. And even younger ones, like Tate, >>>>>Matthews, Simic, Forche, et al., who were >>>>>just starting to make the first >>>>>splash. Took me a while to come around to >>>>>the New Americans, but even longer to learn to love the long tradition. >>>>>I was *aware* of Frost & the other anthology >>>>>staples, along with formalists like Hecht >>>>>and Wilbur, but they didn't much speak to me >>>>>for a good long time. In contrast, my >>>>>friends and I were all about the latest by Galway Kinnell or Adrienne Rich. >>>>>When I mentioned MFA grads who often seem to >>>>>lack much of a sense of poetic history, by >>>>>the way, I wasn't casting stones but >>>>>commenting on what I've observed. And I >>>>>definitely include myself in the >>>>>generalization--myself as I was 30 years >>>>>ago, anyhow. Seems like the normal way of >>>>>things. And besides, by The Tradition I was >>>>>thinking not of relatively recent poets like >>>>>Bishop and Frost. I was thinking Marlowe, Marvell, Ralegh, Pope, et al. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>======================================== >>>>>David Graham >>>>>grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>>>>Home Page: >>>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>>>>Poetry Library: >>>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>>> >>>>>========================================== >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>>>Cuban Poetry* (University of California Press). >>>>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >>>>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>>>Auster's /Random House Book of Twentieth >>>>Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual >>>>anthology so effectively broadened the sense >>>>of poetic terrain outside the United States >>>>and also created a superb collection of >>>>foreign poems in English. There is nothing >>>>else like it." John Palattella in /The >>>>Nation/ >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>-- >>>Tad Richards >>>Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to >>give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>Giovenale >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 21 18:45:17 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:45:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <7AF86182-7E50-4095-86A0-82E51E649631@ripon.edu> References: <3c39.147ce6bc.38aff0fa@aol.com><44BD0EA9-CE06-4E65-A16F-7155B56B43EF@ripon.edu><4B8194C6.3020800@opus40.org><4b65c2d71002211235q1fd92f93w1fe3b1a4c51f6694@mail.gmail.com><648208b61002211349w5324949ev674103146c2d19c2@mail.gmail.com> <7AF86182-7E50-4095-86A0-82E51E649631@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC81670E770D17-89A0-F471@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> I have a MBA. (There are millions of us among you. Be afraid, be very afraid. Remember you could do worse things with your life than be a starving artist.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 21 19:09:00 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:09:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More ways to recycle old and useless books Message-ID: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 19:24:54 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:24:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More ways to recycle old and useless books In-Reply-To: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oh, right. Just make your Mac vulnerable to one of those leather-bound books freaks. Sheesh. Or Cheech. Just met a guy here in San Miguel who, among other things, like painting on old LPs, bolts books together so they can't be opened. Love it, and think I'll have that done to my life work. Not all copies, but some, as I feel I must explain. Hal "Poetry is the antidote to the poison of rationality." --Mikhail Horowitz Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:09 PM, wrote: > http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 21 19:32:25 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:32:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 - the Cooley Incident In-Reply-To: <8CC7FD3FB0DA9F2-3998-31B5@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com> References: <201002191512.o1JFCoV5001367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <8CC7FD3FB0DA9F2-3998-31B5@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <999687.92669.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> As it is? Ha! Or if you're trying to make "sense" as in business-as-usual, what you've been told the world is like, etc. Presumptuous, but the other side of that coin: "If my poetry aims to achieve anything, it's to deliver people from the limited ways in which they see and feel." --Jim Morrison Moreover, "represent" offers the real problem here.... -----Original Message----- From: Crisman Cooley And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to represent the world as it is. _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 21 19:34:43 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More ways to recycle old and useless books In-Reply-To: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Is this kosher? Seems like boiling the lamb in the milk of its mother. At 07:09 PM 2/21/2010, you wrote: >http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Sun Feb 21 19:50:30 2010 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sui generis In-Reply-To: <201002212130.o1LLUvfS010942@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <490314.99429.qm@web45608.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > What's an MFA program? Anything like The Lone Ranger? Kind of Hal. Not Silver but a relative. Its roots are from the Chemistry chart, Minus FA, perhaps etymologically linked to Frost ie: "nothing gold can stay." Minus FA: one leaves the program with much less gold than they started. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 21 20:05:34 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:05:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Asking for evermore help... Message-ID: <800032.56605.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Women in Letters and Literary Arts -- www.willaweb.org/ ?Best of ??, ?Top Ten Picks of ??, ?Best Gifts for ?? etc -- Like it or not, those seemingly-benign lists sell books, secure jobs, build reputations, and reap a variety of other rewards. They appear in various permutations often to promote books in a number of genres; we?re interested in any generated for Children?s Literature, Fiction, Creative Nonfiction (i.e. memoir, essay, etc), Playwriting and Poetry. Many of those lists happen to be biased, intentionally or not, with the most obvious one being for books written by men and on traditionally-male interests. (A brief note on the Publisher?s Weekly list-as-impetus can be found here -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/why-weren?t-any-women-invited-to-publishers-weekly?s-weenie-roast/) We want to identify those lists, consider the causes, and explore ways to react as well alternative responses to listing. But first, we need to locate those lists ? if you know of any instances similar to the one from Publishers Weekly in any of the genres listed above, please send them along to me at amyhappens at gmail.com , even if you?ve posted them before -- I?d be most grateful. Thanks much, Amy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 21 20:31:59 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Asking for evermore help... In-Reply-To: <800032.56605.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <800032.56605.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59943.87730.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Please also include inequitable lists of awards, prizes, and titles [i.e. U.S. Poet Laureate Timeline from 1937 - 2009 = 38 Men and 8 Women] -- thank you! Women in Letters and Literary Arts -- www.willaweb.org/ ?Best of ??, ?Top Ten Picks of ??, ?Best Gifts for ?? etc -- Like it or not, those seemingly-benign lists sell books, secure jobs, build reputations, and reap a variety of other rewards. They appear in various permutations often to promote books in a number of genres; we?re interested in any generated for Children?s Literature, Fiction, Creative Nonfiction (i.e. memoir, essay, etc), Playwriting and Poetry. Many of those lists happen to be biased, intentionally or not, with the most obvious one being for books written by men and on traditionally-male interests. (A brief note on the Publisher?s Weekly list-as-impetus can be found here -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/why-weren't-any-women-invited-to-publishers-weekly's-weenie-roast/) We want to identify those lists, consider the causes, and explore ways to react as well alternative responses to listing. But first, we need to locate those lists ? if you know of any instances similar to the one from Publishers Weekly in any of the genres listed above, please send them along to me at amyhappens at gmail.com , even if you?ve posted them before -- I?d be most grateful. Thanks much, Amy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 22 07:34:49 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:34:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query Message-ID: This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know where the modern practice of painting the faces of children at parties began and how it spread. Apart from telling me what I already know (a long history, blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, children starting in the 1980s, blah) the web has failed me. What to do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. Isn't that sad? An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. Best, Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mykelmarsh at comcast.net Mon Feb 22 09:07:58 2010 From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:07:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1788131391.6052181266847678983.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I know as a preschool teacher that many children really get into painting their faces and hands and other body parts whenever paint is available. It has also been a popular planned activity since I have been teaching in the mid 80s. I think mostly its fun for them to look different, basically a prop for imaginary play. But maybe the self-painting and face painting as a planned activity have different motivations. I think that may be the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 4:34:49 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [New-Poetry] query This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know where the modern practice of painting the faces of children at parties began and how it spread. Apart from telling me what I already know (a long history, blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, children starting in the 1980s, blah) the web has failed me. What to do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. Isn't that sad? An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. Best, Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 22 09:11:01 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:11:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: <1788131391.6052181266847678983.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emery ville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1788131391.6052181266847678983.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I understand the why, but not the history. Quite suddenly something appeared and became widespread. There are even people who make a living at it. How did this happen? At 09:07 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >I know as a preschool teacher that many children really get into >painting their faces and hands and other body parts whenever paint >is available. It has also been a popular planned activity since I >have been teaching in the mid 80s. I think mostly its fun for them >to look different, basically a prop for imaginary play. But maybe >the self-painting and face painting as a planned activity have >different motivations. I think that may be the case. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Weiss" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 4:34:49 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: [New-Poetry] query > >This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know >where the modern practice of painting the faces of children at >parties began and how it spread. Apart from telling me what I >already know (a long history, blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, >children starting in the 1980s, blah) the web has failed me. What to >do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. > >Isn't that sad? > >An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. > >Best, > >Mark > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing >list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mykelmarsh at comcast.net Mon Feb 22 09:15:47 2010 From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:15:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You could look at childrens' programming on TV (Zoom, Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers) or family and childrens' magazines (Ladybug, Cricket, Zoom, National Geographic Kids, Family Fun). I know I have seen many articles on face painting and seen it on TV. I couldn't say where or how it would be a party idea, probably one of the many magazines targeting stay at home mothers maybe even as far back as the sixties. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 4:34:49 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [New-Poetry] query This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know where the modern practice of painting the faces of children at parties began and how it spread. Apart from telling me what I already know (a long history, blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, children starting in the 1980s, blah) the web has failed me. What to do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. Isn't that sad? An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. Best, Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 22 09:40:29 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:40:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emery ville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Sounds plausible. Parents' Magazine birthday party hints or the like, and then it goes viral. At 09:15 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >You could look at childrens' programming on TV (Zoom, Sesame Street, >Mr. Rogers) or family and childrens' magazines (Ladybug, Cricket, >Zoom, National Geographic Kids, Family Fun). I know I have seen >many articles on face painting and seen it on TV. I couldn't say >where or how it would be a party idea, probably one of the many >magazines targeting stay at home mothers maybe even as far back as the sixties. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Weiss" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 4:34:49 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: [New-Poetry] query > >This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know >where the modern practice of painting the faces of children at >parties began and how it spread. Apart from telling me what I >already know (a long history, blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, >children starting in the 1980s, blah) the web has failed me. What to >do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. > >Isn't that sad? > >An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. > >Best, > >Mark > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing >list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Feb 22 10:43:55 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:43:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers Message-ID: I accept your refinement Mark. I think the mainstream is mainstream because few people are willing to subject themselves to the pain of not-knowing-- at least, not for 'pleasure.' >I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is >I think the submerging in the world's apparent >incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less willed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 22 10:50:22 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:50:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] New Issue of So and So Magazine Message-ID: <667292.47892.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Two new poems up ? ?Tiny Tacos? and ?Dali Dolly? in the new So and So Magazine, along with Ana Bozicevic, Joe Fletcher, Brian Howe, Douglas Piccinnini, Maureen Thorson, and Franz Wright. So and So Magazine - http://soandso.org/ Enjoy? Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Feb 22 11:04:11 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:04:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More ways to recycle old and useless books In-Reply-To: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC816A5EA2C0C8-89A0-F918@webmail-m061.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B82AAFB.1080407@opus40.org> I think this is cute. If I had a MacBook, I'd be tempted. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Feb 22 11:53:40 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:53:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Back to The Crisman (Barry Spacks) Message-ID: Yes, you're right Barry; it was a wiseass remark. But when James responded with the Jeffers quote, I saw that it also might mean something different and much more interesting. I agree with you that art lies in between. 'Chaos contained' is one way of thinking of it; but I also like Mark's notion of reading relatively incoherent poetry as swimming, or maybe skinny dipping, in the Chaos-- this swimming metaphor being a depiction of what the earth does quite literally in space (without any hope, however, of an 'other side'). Art then becomes an extension of the life force that defies or (to quote a media product) thrives on chaos, having somehow found a foothold and grown into a human brain / central nervous system housed in a human body, or a lot of them connected by the internet. There are two dangers: one that chaos will overwhelm you & make you crazy, your speech the mindless act of an idiot and you outcast and ignored; the other (that seems to have the upper hand in the U.S. at present) that, shielded by a media culture containing only popularly known references to itself, you will never know that chaos exists, and so will lack the capacity to appreciate the miracle of consciousness. > From: Barry Spacks > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Back to The Crisman > >>And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to >> represent the world as it is. >wiseass remark, Crisman > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Feb 22 11:59:02 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:59:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: agreement Message-ID: Do you have a link? I'd be interested to see them. > 3) Demonstrate. (poetry)(hjsiopp) = coherence [I spose it could as long as (hjsiopp) does not equal 0. ] I've engaged many visual poems in which something coherent emerges from a mess of typography, the mess of typography being incoherence coherently depicted as incoherence. Standard trope in visual poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 16:05:36 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:05:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: References: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002221305o6aea9050g8715333bc4178c48@mail.gmail.com> I think part of this action has to be brought back to mimicking adults. I wanted to grow up quickly. It is also the love of getting dirty. Have you ever noticed how kids love to go out of their way to step in the puddle they noticed somewhere to have their boots dirty, to hear the splash of water, to ... It is the wild - that will become soon muffled and tuned to the ever present rules - that wins. This love of dirt might also be a necessity. Since children have to build up their immune system, they eat down everything, if they don't die, they will grow strong. Something like that. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Sounds plausible. Parents' Magazine birthday party hints or the like, and > then it goes viral. > > > At 09:15 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: > > You could look at childrens' programming on TV (Zoom, Sesame Street, Mr. > Rogers) or family and childrens' magazines (Ladybug, Cricket, Zoom, National > Geographic Kids, Family Fun). I know I have seen many articles on face > painting and seen it on TV. I couldn't say where or how it would be a party > idea, probably one of the many magazines targeting stay at home mothers > maybe even as far back as the sixties. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Weiss" > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 4:34:49 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: [New-Poetry] query > > This morning over my first cup of coffee I realized I need to know where > the modern practice of painting the faces of children at parties began and > how it spread. Apart from telling me what I already know (a long history, > blah blah, ritual, war, blah blah, children starting in the 1980s, blah) the > web has failed me. What to do, what to do? I know, I'll turn to poets. > > Isn't that sad? > > An unsatisfied quest for knowledge is like a splinter in the brain. > > Best, > > Mark > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon Feb 22 16:50:21 2010 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:50:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confused lurker here In-Reply-To: <201002212130.o1LLUvfS010942@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201002212130.o1LLUvfS010942@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <106AE453-F4A6-4F4B-96B7-658D7415B89B@verizon.net> On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Crisman wrote: Yes, you're right Barry; it was a wiseass remark. I'm confused because only the first short sentence of my post ever reached me, so how is Cristman responding somehow to the whole, never visible to my machine? Yet another cyber-mystery. The thread addressed has raveled out, the full post at this late point irrelevant, but I wouldn't want my friend Cristman to think I only wise-assed him and stopped, so here is my original again. Maybe the rest of you saw it already, but since I never did, maybe you didn't. Please forgive blah-blahzoisie, Barry ORIGINAL POST IN ITS ENTIRETY (just for the record): On Feb 20, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > And there's no reason to write incoherently, unless you are trying to > represent the world as it is. > wiseass remark, Crisman (always good to see a post from you out here in the LurkerDome). True, we want that seethe of the rarely coherent Real, but served (no?) in a wrought cup or bowl or steamship, not as flotsomic jetsam. Do we have to label the successful marriage of the far-out and the sane as "hybrid?" How about "art" instead? I offer this condensation to The Crisman, hoping I'm reading right where he's coming from: Chaos Contained. Along such lines, anybody see Gilliam's latest, The Imaginarium? -- an often lively piece that resists a sensible line-through-of-action "almost successfully" (to play on a Steven's thought). I asked myself, what would it have cost those Parnassian film-makers to sprinkle in a bit more cause-and-effect as substitutes for the place-holding inclusions of dumb pratfalls to give the actors something to do while the Grand Guignol of unleashed imagining battered on. And then it came to me, maybe the answer to my Gilliam question: if the film's sequence had been given a saner shape, the result might be its defamation via the label "Mainstream" or worse, given the competition for the virtue of absolute strangeness released among us. hybridly, Barry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 22 17:03:50 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:03:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: agreement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B82FF46.5080802@nut-n-but.net> Crisman Cooley wrote: > Do you have a link? I'd be interested to see them. Sorry, no. They're scattered around. But I'll try to remember your interest so when I come across one, I can link you to it. --Bob From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 19:18:56 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:18:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: sometimes there were temporary tattoos in boxes of cracker jack, even before temporary tattoos became popular so I remember angling after those on occasions cracker jack was available even in the 70s and yes, putting them on my face I didn't go in for ball game face painting, or putting stickers on face for various spectator sports, but when did that start? related? the first bog sticker wave -- nothing like now -- wasn't that in the 70s? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:15:01 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:15:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: References: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <648208b61002221715w4902aa5ax62f7538f71788c73@mail.gmail.com> Yes, butterflies were free and we all moved in slo mo . . . . - Jim On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > sometimes there were temporary tattoos in boxes of cracker jack, even > before temporary tattoos became popular > > so I remember angling after those on occasions cracker jack was > available even in the 70s > > and yes, putting them on my face > > I didn't go in for ball game face painting, or putting stickers on > face for various spectator sports, but when did that start? related? > > the first bog sticker wave -- nothing like now -- wasn't that in the 70s? > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu Mon Feb 22 23:24:44 2010 From: Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu (Sigauke, Emmanuel) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:24:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] New issue of Munyori Lit Journal Message-ID: <430E71B1EF479E419F77C6B0E605BBA11C958365BE@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> http://munyori.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Tue Feb 23 12:33:29 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:33:29 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. c On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in > the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less > willed. > > I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > What I meant is that the mind provides intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the latter > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is confused, that its poets should > share its confusions." > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 23 16:59:31 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:59:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: References: <2124444458.6054361266848147459.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Cockamamies! (seriously, that's what the word means). When I was a little kid you could buy a sheet of them. That's in the 40s. At 07:18 PM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >sometimes there were temporary tattoos in boxes of cracker jack, even >before temporary tattoos became popular > >so I remember angling after those on occasions cracker jack was >available even in the 70s > >and yes, putting them on my face > >I didn't go in for ball game face painting, or putting stickers on >face for various spectator sports, but when did that start? related? > >the first bog sticker wave -- nothing like now -- wasn't that in the 70s? > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 23 17:05:30 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:05:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You thought the old one ended? At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > >c > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less > > willed. > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > > presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > confused, that its poets should > > share its confusions." > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Feb 23 17:35:58 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:35:58 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, just a lot of people pretending they are doing something else. c On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You thought the old one ended? > > At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: > > Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > > c > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in >> the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less >> willed. >> >> I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of >> all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an >> undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive >> element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a >> presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's >> noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. >> >> At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: >> >> I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of >> confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. >> >> What I meant is that the mind provides intellectual coherence-- "meaning" >> if >> you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. >> >> Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion >> without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a >> presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the >> latter >> being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, >> incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. >> >> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 >> From: jforjames at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 >> >> >> Or as Jeffers put it, >> >> >> "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is confused, that its poets >> should >> share its confusions." >> >> ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 23 19:05:03 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:05:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay Society plans to open Steepletop Message-ID: <8CC82FC266032E5-3914-3700@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory?id=9907933 The Millay Society plans to open Steepletop, the home of the late poet Edna St. Vincent Millay, to the public for tours starting May 28. Millay was a native of Maine but she lived and worked at the farmhouse on the Taconic Ridge for her last 25 years. She died there in 1950. Society Executive Director Peter Bergman says the tour will feature Millay's private suite on the second floor of the farmhouse, including her bedroom and work room and library, with the rooms much as the Pulitzer Prize-winning poet left them. Visitors will be able to walk the 191-acre grounds and gardens. A poet's walk on the estate has been open and free since 2003. It leads through the woods to the gravesite of Millay and her family, with passages of her poetry posted along the way. Steepletop tours will cost $12 per person. Austerlitz is 30 miles southeast of Albany. ???? On the Net: http://www.millaysociety.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 23 19:16:01 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:16:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New & Selected Bei Dao Message-ID: <8CC82FDAE754E85-3914-399C@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/the-reading-life-a-chinese-writers-poetics-and-politics/ The Reading Life: A Chinese Writer?s Poetics, and Politics By DWIGHT GARNER The Chinese poet Bei Dao, born in Beijing in 1949, has long been mentioned in the West as a potential Nobel laureate, but it?s been hard to get to know his work well: curiously, there?s been no career-spanning volume of his poetry available in English. That situation is rectified now with the publication of ?The Rose of Time: New & Selected Poems? (New Directions, $16.95), edited by the critic and translator Eliot Weinberger. There?s no doubt that Bei Dao?s poems are, to American eyes and ears -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Feb 23 20:09:26 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:09:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay Society plans to open Steepletop In-Reply-To: <8CC82FC266032E5-3914-3700@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC82FC266032E5-3914-3700@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B847C46.5000401@opus40.org> My neighborhood. This is a good thing. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory?id=9907933 > > The Millay Society plans to open Steepletop, the home of the late poet > Edna St. Vincent Millay, to the public for tours starting May 28. > > Millay was a native of Maine but she lived and worked at the farmhouse > on the Taconic Ridge for her last 25 years. She died there in 1950. > Society Executive Director Peter > Bergman says the tour will feature Millay's private suite on the > second floor of the farmhouse, including her bedroom and work room and > library, with the rooms much as the Pulitzer > Prize-winning poet left them. Visitors will be able to walk the > 191-acre grounds and gardens. > > A poet's walk on the estate has been open and free since 2003. It > leads through the woods to the gravesite of Millay and her family, > with passages of her poetry posted along the way. > > Steepletop tours will cost $12 per person. Austerlitz is 30 miles > southeast of Albany. > ???? > On the Net: > http://www.millaysociety.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 24 10:02:29 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:02:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] WILLA (Women in Letters and Literary Arts) @ The New School - Monday, March 1st at 6:30 p.m. Message-ID: <364221.69160.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Poets, I'm writing to let you know about WILLA's first public event to be held at the New School this coming Monday. More details are below, and if you would like a pdf flyer to distribute, please drop me a line directly at amyhappens at gmail.com Please pass it on -- any help in getting the word out is most appreciated! Hope to see you there, Amy King WILLA http://www.willaweb.org/ ~~ Riggio Forum: Women in Letters and Literary Arts Monday, March 1st @ 6:30 p.m. Alvin Johnson/J. M. Kaplan Hall 66 West 12th Street ? Room 510 New York, NY WILLA (Women in Letters and Literary Arts) will celebrate the formation of their new organization with a reading and panel presentation at the New School in New York, NY. Merging the creative and the critical, this event will feature brief readings by women integrally involved in the development of the organization, including poets Cate Marvin (Co-director of WILLA), Ann Townsend, Amy King, and Natalie Bryant Rizzieri; creative nonfiction writer Barrie Jean Borich; children?s literature authors Laurel Snyder and Kekla Magoon; and fiction writer Susan Steinberg. A panel discussion will follow on the state of women?s literature today. Poet and New School Writing Program faculty member Mark Bibbins moderates. Sponsored by the New School Writing Program. FEATURED READERS INCLUDE? Barrie Jean Borich is the author of My Lesbian Husband (Graywolf), winner of an American Library Association Stonewall Book Award. She?s the recipient of the 2010 Crab Orchard Review John Guyon Literary Nonfiction Prize, and has essays appearing in current or forthcoming issues of Ecotone, Seneca Review, Hotel Amerika, New Ohio Review and Seattle Review. Her work has been named Notable in Best American Essays and Best American Non-Required Reading, has received Pushcart Prize Special Mention, and has been awarded a Bush Artist Fellowship and Loft-McKnight Award of Distinction. Her first book, Restoring the Color of Roses, a memoir set in the Calumet region of Chicago, was published by Firebrand. She?s an assistant professor in the MFA/BFA programs of Hamline University where she?s the nonfiction editor of Water~Stone Review. Amy King?s most recent books are Slaves to Do These Things (Blazevox) and, forthcoming, I Want to Make You Safe (Litmus Press). She edits the Poetics List (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania), moderates the Women?s Poetry Listserv (WOMPO), and teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College. King also co-curates the Brooklyn-based reading series, The Stain of Poetry. For more information, please visit http://amyking.org. Kekla Magoon is a New York City-based author, editor, speaker and educator. Her debut novel, The Rock and the River (Aladdin, 2009), won the Coretta Scott King/John Steptoe Award for New Talent and was nominated for an NAACP Image Award, in addition to being named an ALA/YALSA Best Book for Young Adults. Kekla is Co-Editor of YA and Children?s Literature for Hunger Mountain, the arts journal of Vermont College of Fine Arts. She also leads writing workshops for youth and adults, and writes non-fiction titles for the educational market. Kekla holds a B.A. in History from Northwestern University and an M.F.A. in Writing from Vermont College of Fine Arts. For more information, visit www.keklamagoon.com. Cate Marvin?s first book of poems, World?s Tallest Disaster, was chosen by Robert Pinsky for the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize and published by Sarabande Books in 2001. In 2002, she received the Kate Tufts Discovery Prize. Her second book of poems, Fragment of the Head of a Queen, also published by Sarabande, appeared in 2007. A 2007 Whiting Award recipient and NYFA Gregory Millard Fellow, she co-edited with poet Michael Dumanis the anthology Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century (Sarabande, 2006). Her poems have appeared in journals such as Poetry, Ninth Letter, The New England Review, Tin House, and Kenyon Review. She is an associate professor in English at the College of Staten Island, CUNY, and teaches in the low-residency M.F.A. program in creative writing at Lesley University. She lives in Staten Island, NY. Natalie Bryant Rizzieri recently received her MFA in poetry from Lesley University. Her work has appeared in Crab Orchard Review and Connotations. She is also the founder of Friends of Warm Hearth, a group home for Armenian orphans with disabilities and travels to Armenia on a regular basis. She lives in Queens, New York. Laurel Snyder is the author of two picture books, Inside the Slidy Diner and Baxter: the Pig who Wanted to Be Kosher, three novels, Up and Down the Scratchy Mountains, Any Which Wall, and Penny Dreadful, and three collections of poetry, including The Myth of the Simple Machines and Daphne & Jim: a choose-your-own-adventure-biography-in verse. A graduate of the Iowa Writers? Workshop and a contributor to NPR?s All Things Considered, she lives in Atlanta and online at Laurelsnyder.com. Susan Steinberg is the author of two short story collections, Hydroplane (FC2) and The End of Free Love (FC2). Her stories have also appeared in McSweeney?s, Conjunctions, The Gettysburg Review, American Short Fiction, Boulevard, The Massachusetts Review, Quarterly West, Denver Quarterly, Indiana Review, Alaska Quarterly Review, LIT, Columbia, and other literary journals. She has held residencies at The Vermont Studio Center, The Wurlitzer Foundation, the Blue Mountain Center, The MacDowell Colony, and Yaddo, and she was recently Scholar-in-Residence in the Department of Performance Studies at NYU. She received a BFA in Painting from the Maryland Institute College of Art and an MFA in English from The University of Massachusetts, Amherst. She is currently Associate Professor of English at the University of San Francisco. Ann Townsend is the author of two collections of poetry: Dime Store Erotics (Silverfish Review Press, 1998), and The Coronary Garden (Sarabande Books, 2005). She is the editor of a collection of essays, Radiant Lyre: on Lyric Poetry (with David Baker), published by Graywolf Press in 2007. She is the recipient of a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, an Individual Artist?s grant from the Ohio Arts Council, and a Discovery Prize from The Nation. Her poems have appeared in many anthologies, including The New Young American Poets, American Poetry: The Next Generation, and The New American Poets: A Bread Loaf Anthology. Dominic Consolo Professor of English and Director of Creative Writing at Denison University, Ann Townsend also owns and operates Bittersweet Farm in Granville, Ohio. _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 24 16:12:59 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:12:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Padgett back at Columbia Message-ID: <8CC83AD471FECBD-2A08-3EAF@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2010/02/23/padgett-returns-campus-offbeat-original-poetry Padgett returns to campus with offbeat original poetry During the Q&A, Padgett talked about how he has changed since his days at Columbia. He said, ?I still drink in culture, but not in the same way I did then.? He even confessed to some methamphetamine use, although only on three occasions, because it hurt his stomach. He also confessed, ?I was extremely happy to leave Columbia after four years. I was a weirdo poet. Most guys wanted to be doctors or businessmen. They all wore suits. I wore jeans and cowboy boots.? He also talked about his favorite professor, Kenneth Koch, who made him stay in school. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 24 19:36:35 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:36:35 -0500 Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's also a pretty good description of science. At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > >c > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less > > willed. > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > > presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > confused, that its poets should > > share its confusions." > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 22:52:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:52:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: 06 - Martha's Vineyard & National Geographic/Water/Poetry/Music In-Reply-To: <-1324842577773266560@unknownmsgid> References: <-1324842577773266560@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002241952w7ddc9f7cg7a6f2da636ed0360@mail.gmail.com> *On May 1 and 2 at the MVRHS* *National Geographic will host a "Water is Life: A Celebration"* *event to include original water poetry by Fan Ogilvie (see below).* The event is to celebrate the launch of National Geographic's new book, *Written in Water, Messages of Hope for Earth's Most Precious Resource*. Edited by film director, Irena Salina, (FLOW), it features 25 essays by some of the world's renowned water researchers and writers, including Sandra Postel, Bill McKibben, Alex Mathiessen, Scott Harrison, Alexandra Cousteau, and local water author, William Waterway Marks. This event will also celebrate the release of National Geographic magazine's April issue that will be completely dedicated to water. The two-day event will feature presentations by water writers, researchers, and scientists, with book signings, music, film screenings, and a "Green Fair" with booths of local and off-island green businesses and environmental organizations. A local water panel chaired by *Robert Woodruff,* will include *Joe Allosso*, *Bill Wilcox *and others, will provide an update on the "Health of Martha's Vineyard's Water". *The evening of May 2 will close the event with keynote speaker, Alexandra Cousteau, water poetry by Fan Ogilvie, and music by the Minnesingers, Katie Mayhew, and the world famous Native American flutist, R. Carlos Nakai.* This event is being produced by William Waterway Marks in cooperation with National Geographic, and is a fundraiser for the Martha's Vineyard Science Fair and ongoing water research by the nonprofit World Waterway. Tickets for the evening of May 2 may now be purchased online at: http://www.ticketsmv.com/event.php?id=14520. For "Green Fair" booth information please contact Andrea Rogers @: artisan02557 at yahoo.com (508-693-8989). For event information, please contact, William Waterway Marks: 508-627-4929. Respectfully yours, *William Waterway Marks* *www.watervoices.com/blog.html* *Water Voices from Around The World* voted* 1st Place* in the world's largest international book competition as: *"Most Likely to Save the Planet"* *5 Pleasant Ave.* *Martha's Vineyard, MA 02539* *(01) 508-627-4929* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 25 11:28:30 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:28:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The Poetry Ark: Round 5 has launched! In-Reply-To: <20100223191255.20099.qmail@poetryark.com> References: <20100223191255.20099.qmail@poetryark.com> Message-ID: <8CC844EB35DBFDF-77DC-FA0@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> Subject: The Poetry Ark: Round 5 has launched! The Poetry Ark has launched Round 5! Dear Poetry Ark readers, writers, and publishers, We?ve recently launched Current Round 5, featuring new poems available for your consideration. Your votes are the key to determining which poems advance from each round, so please visit the site, read, and vote. Each Current Round is open for voting for 2 weeks from its launch date. Current Round 5 will close for voting on March 9. Don?t forget to help us spread the word to your peers. Your help is crucial to our discovering the 100 best poems. Thanks so much, www.poetryark.org ? Copyright 2010 Poetry Ark, LLC. All Rights Reserved -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Thu Feb 25 19:34:24 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:34:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers Message-ID: It is Romantic only in the sense that it embraces immersion in the sensuality of experience and does not try to distance itself from this experience (what used to be called "subjectivity"). However it does not favor any particular frame of interpretation, so that this interpretation could be a clear recording of sense data, in the same way that Hubble photographed galaxies and only later found out they were all red-shifted. >From the perspective of Integral theory, there is no strict division between "I", "we", "they", and "it" frames of reference (no division between "subject" & "object", etc). "I" and "we" may be objects of science, as "it" and "they" may be subjects personally experienced, as well as the other way around. Poetry stands to gain from opening to scientific modes of thought & inquiry. Semiotics helps to distinguish between semantic frames of reference and the otherwise meaningless objects they invest with meaning, providing bridges between the quadrants. Robin for some time has been advocating for the revolution of de Saussure: how notions of "word & thing" are replaced by "sound image & concept". So all rigidity of thought melts and the world is allowed to be what it is: continuous flux. From: Mark Weiss > Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers > > It's also a pretty good description of science. > > At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: > >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > > > >c > > > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging > in > > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather > less > > > willed. > > > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think > of > > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward > a > > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general > a > > > presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the > latter > > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > > confused, that its poets should > > > share its confusions." > > > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Feb 25 20:00:47 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:00:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was playing with Stein's suggestion in Conrad's Lord Jim that "what is necessary is to the destructive element submit yourself." Still pretty good advice. Best, Mark At 07:34 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote: >It is Romantic only in the sense that it >embraces immersion in the sensuality of >experience and does not try to distance itself >from this experience (what used to be called >"subjectivity"). However it does not favor any >particular frame of interpretation, so that this >interpretation could be a clear recording of >sense data, in the same way that Hubble >photographed galaxies and only later found out they were all red-shifted. > > From the perspective of Integral theory, there > is no strict division between "I", "we", > "they", and "it" frames of reference (no > division between "subject" & "object", etc). > "I" and "we" may be objects of science, as "it" > and "they" may be subjects personally > experienced, as well as the other way around. > Poetry stands to gain from opening to scientific modes of thought & inquiry. > >Semiotics helps to distinguish between semantic >frames of reference and the otherwise >meaningless objects they invest with meaning, >providing bridges between the quadrants. Robin >for some time has been advocating for the >revolution of de Saussure: how notions of "word >& thing" are replaced by "sound image & >concept". So all rigidity of thought melts and >the world is allowed to be what it is: continuous flux. > > >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers > > >It's also a pretty good description of science. > >At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: > >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > > > >c > > > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss > <junction at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed > act is I think the submerging in > > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it > eventually coheres is rather less > > > willed. > > > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective > of information theory. Think of > > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > > > presentation of a world already made > coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > > confused, that its poets should > > > share its confusions." > > > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > > > _______________________________________________ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 25 20:58:48 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:58:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I contain multitudinousness Message-ID: <8CC849E5EC853FF-48A0-84C2@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Math-of-Poetry/64249/ Who is writing all this poetry? In quieter times, the art's only significant promoters were English professors who focused on reading poetry for its own sake. Today colleges across America have hundreds of programs devoted to teaching men and women how to actually write the stuff. Those in charge of undergraduate and M.F.A. programs have cast themselves in the role of poetry-writing cheerleaders who are busy assuring tens of thousands of students that they are talented poets who should expect their work not only to be published but to win awards as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 25 21:25:27 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:25:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I contain multitudinousness In-Reply-To: <8CC849E5EC853FF-48A0-84C2@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC849E5EC853FF-48A0-84C2@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC84A217F8D803-48A0-8A4E@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> I might be misremembering this but didn't this David Alpaugh guy write essentially the same piece about 10 years ago in Poets & Writers? Script pitch: 'The Undead Poets'. The year is 2020 and living breathing poets have proliferated at a fantastic rate among the general populace until you can't be sure if your own Granny doesn't have a unpublished manuscript stashed in her clutch. They walk the streets at all hours, like pickpockets in reverse, eager to tuck their newest chapbooks into the backpockets of unsuspecting passers-by. Even our President appears on TV with two litmags draped open over his shoulders like the epaulets of third world dictator. It's the silence of iambs, baby. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 8:58 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] I contain multitudinousness http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Math-of-Poetry/64249/ Who is writing all this poetry? In quieter times, the art's only significant promoters were English professors who focused on reading poetry for its own sake. Today colleges across America have hundreds of programs devoted to teaching men and women how to actually write the stuff. Those in charge of undergraduate and M.F.A. programs have cast themselves in the role of poetry-writing cheerleaders who are busy assuring tens of thousands of students that they are talented poets who should expect their work not only to be published but to win awards as well. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 25 21:46:52 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:46:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CCE85260E6B4687A3F43423B97D92EA@RobinLaptopPC> << I was playing with Stein's suggestion >> God, for a minute I thought you meant the sainted Gertrude!!! << in Conrad's Lord Jim that "what is necessary is to the destructive element submit yourself." Still pretty good advice. Best, Mark >> Robin From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 25 22:02:11 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:02:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC84A739F40037-48A0-91C7@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> Doesn't science have all the metaphor but none of feel for art? Besides poetry, I've become a little bit obsessed with phi Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Crisman Cooley To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 7:34 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers It is Romantic only in the sense that it embraces immersion in the sensuality of experience and does not try to distance itself from this experience (what used to be called "subjectivity"). However it does not favor any particular frame of interpretation, so that this interpretation could be a clear recording of sense data, in the same way that Hubble photographed galaxies and only later found out they were all red-shifted. >From the perspective of Integral theory, there is no strict division between "I", "we", "they", and "it" frames of reference (no division between "subject" & "object", etc). "I" and "we" may be objects of science, as "it" and "they" may be subjects personally experienced, as well as the other way around. Poetry stands to gain from opening to scientific modes of thought & inquiry. Semiotics helps to distinguish between semantic frames of reference and the otherwise meaningless objects they invest with meaning, providing bridges between the quadrants. Robin for some time has been advocating for the revolution of de Saussure: how notions of "word & thing" are replaced by "sound image & concept". So all rigidity of thought melts and the world is allowed to be what it is: continuous flux. From: Mark Weiss Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers It's also a pretty good description of science. At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > >c > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed act is I think the submerging in > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it eventually coheres is rather less > > willed. > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective of information theory. Think of > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > > presentation of a world already made coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > confused, that its poets should > > share its confusions." > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 25 22:43:17 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:43:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] best minds Message-ID: <8CC84ACF7602B02-3744-6B36@webmail-d081.sysops.aol.com> http://www.poetspath.com/exhibits/video_exhibit.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 26 09:41:12 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:41:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] new FTC rules Message-ID: <8CC8508E0BC2778-4620-C92F@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> http://www.slate.com/id/2231808/pagenum/all/ Maybe we would have fewer elaborated blurbs masquerading as reviews if the reviewer had paid real money for the book under his/her consideration. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 26 10:21:36 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:21:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet to poet, punk icon Henry Rollins speaks his mind Message-ID: <8CC850E854F23E5-4620-D506@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> Poet to poet, punk icon Henry Rollins speaks his mind http://www.tampabay.com/features/performingarts/poet-to-poet-punk-icon-henry-rollins-speaks-his-mind/1075789 In 1983, I started doing talking shows along with being in the band Black Flag. I would do shows with local poets. They were very precious about their scene, and some regarded me with a bit of disdain that I was coming into their little setting. (I love to) break every possible bit of china in their store. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 13:49:26 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:49:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative Non Fiction Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002261049keb08b74p4cf885e7daf00dbb@mail.gmail.com> http://www.creativenonfiction.org/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Feb 26 15:24:13 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:24:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers Message-ID: Yes, James, I agree science misses art completely and only an artist would think any value could be derived from art as an object of science! haha. However, art is always half expression & half content -- and this expression plane as Hjelmslev calls it-- being some physical representation-- yields up some of its mysteries to science. For example color in painting or design in drawing, etc. I have a good friend who does amazing drawings from algorithms: http://hebert.kitp.ucsb.edu/ I will demonstrate soon how music (itself more than half science) can be used to make extremely accurate depictions of the sound of poetry. As for the content plane -- that is more voodoo than anything -- because phanerons (Pierce's term for signs in the mind) are too slippery to be objects of any science more scientific than semiotics (ie, voodoo). (Someday maybe brain science... though pictures of neurons will probably never really *feel* like anything unless they can be accurately reproduced in another central nervous system... :) However, these appear to align themselves hierarchically and may be described as so many angels, orders of seraphim, &c. -- Truly this can never be a science, since science tries very earnestly not to feel anything. I had coffee this morning. Can you tell? As for phi... that's short for fi...ve, no? Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:02:11 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers Doesn't science have all the metaphor but none of feel for art? Besides poetry, I've become a little bit obsessed with phi Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 16:52:30 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:52:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The Poetry Ark: Round 5 has launched! In-Reply-To: <8CC844EB35DBFDF-77DC-FA0@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> References: <20100223191255.20099.qmail@poetryark.com> <8CC844EB35DBFDF-77DC-FA0@webmail-d060.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002261352p76871822g59416418ea819f1e@mail.gmail.com> Poor Ronald Johnson, the Ark is still around, quite different, though. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > Subject: The Poetry Ark: Round 5 has launched! > > The Poetry Ark has launched Round 5! > Dear Poetry Ark readers, writers, and publishers, > We?ve recently launched Current Round 5, > featuring new poems available for your consideration. Your votes are the key > to determining which poems advance from each round, so please visit the > site, read, and vote. > Each Current Round is open for voting for 2 weeks from its launch date. > Current Round 5 will close for voting on March 9. > Don?t forget to help us spread the word to your peers. Your help is crucial > to our discovering the 100 best poems. > Thanks so much, > www.poetryark.org > ? Copyright 2010 Poetry Ark, LLC. All Rights Reserved > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 17:02:37 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:02:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] new FTC rules In-Reply-To: <8CC8508E0BC2778-4620-C92F@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC8508E0BC2778-4620-C92F@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002261402r3d124461n9554a17ce1d07c30@mail.gmail.com> I agree, money in terms of investment in poetry requires a rethinking on the choices. I was talking today about artists with my students. In contemporary art it is often the one who excels as a P.R. to appear on the market, the serious artist/author is at home working, or studying, or experimenting. I think that the first wave of intellectuals who had the time to sort out the good from the bad have already made their choices, I do not envy the young students who appear on the net in this moment and try to understand what is going on in poetry. They will have to work very hard to understand who is who. On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:41 PM, wrote: > http://www.slate.com/id/2231808/pagenum/all/ > > Maybe we would have fewer elaborated blurbs masquerading as reviews if > the reviewer had paid real money for the book under his/her consideration. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 17:08:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:08:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The knots by Laing Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002261408m3f7601e0me9ba2467804744@mail.gmail.com> A great book I read centuries ago, and recently mentioned _wonderful to find it so quickly: http://www.amazon.com/Knots-R-D-Laing/dp/0394717767#reader_0394717767 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Feb 26 18:26:18 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:26:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers Message-ID: Yes, that's what I was more or less getting from what you said. Conrad himself is an amazing example of this form of bravery. In that movement from ignorance to knowledge (for example reading a difficult text or another language), there is this element of pain -- subjecting yourself to the apparent chaos of some foreign or merely imagined order. To learn requires an embrace of this form of masochism. Not only a willingness not to know, but a willingness to be a fool, to be vulnerable. It is dangerous for me to speak Spanish in my house because my children laugh at my mistakes. (The Mexicanos are much more forgiving!) btw: I was wondering if your Cuban Anthology is in facing page translation? That is your book, isn't it? And where would I purchase it? Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:00:47 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I was playing with Stein's suggestion in Conrad's Lord Jim that "what is necessary is to the destructive element submit yourself." Still pretty good advice. Best, Mark At 07:34 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote: >It is Romantic only in the sense that it >embraces immersion in the sensuality of >experience and does not try to distance itself >from this experience (what used to be called >"subjectivity"). However it does not favor any >particular frame of interpretation, so that this >interpretation could be a clear recording of >sense data, in the same way that Hubble >photographed galaxies and only later found out they were all red-shifted. > > From the perspective of Integral theory, there > is no strict division between "I", "we", > "they", and "it" frames of reference (no > division between "subject" & "object", etc). > "I" and "we" may be objects of science, as "it" > and "they" may be subjects personally > experienced, as well as the other way around. > Poetry stands to gain from opening to scientific modes of thought & inquiry. > >Semiotics helps to distinguish between semantic >frames of reference and the otherwise >meaningless objects they invest with meaning, >providing bridges between the quadrants. Robin >for some time has been advocating for the >revolution of de Saussure: how notions of "word >& thing" are replaced by "sound image & >concept". So all rigidity of thought melts and >the world is allowed to be what it is: continuous flux. > > >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers > > >It's also a pretty good description of science. > >At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: > >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > > > >c > > > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss > <junction at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed > act is I think the submerging in > > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it > eventually coheres is rather less > > > willed. > > > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective > of information theory. Think of > > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > > element to which one submits oneself. The path taken in the swim toward a > > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > > without favoring either one: the poetry of the former being in general a > > > presentation of a world already made > coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > > confused, that its poets should > > > share its confusions." > > > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 26 18:44:34 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:44:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The book is available anywhere. Amazon's got it, natch. And it's facing page. Buy one for yourself, one for your wife, and one for each kid. Married to a Cuban? It's a tough neighborhood. I wouldn't call it masochism. I'm suggesting that whatever one confronts be seen as if without preconceptions (to the extent possible), and as if for the first time. Then find out what's there and where it leads you. Best, Mark At 06:26 PM 2/26/2010, you wrote: >Yes, that's what I was more or less getting from >what you said. Conrad himself is an amazing >example of this form of bravery. In that >movement from ignorance to knowledge (for >example reading a difficult text or another >language), there is this element of pain -- >subjecting yourself to the apparent chaos of >some foreign or merely imagined order. To learn >requires an embrace of this form of masochism. >Not only a willingness not to know, but a >willingness to be a fool, to be vulnerable. It >is dangerous for me to speak Spanish in my house >because my children laugh at my mistakes. (The >Mexicanos are much more forgiving!) > >btw: I was wondering if your Cuban Anthology is >in facing page translation? That is your book, >isn't it? And where would I purchase it? > > > >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:00:47 -0500 >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Second thoughts Re: Jeffers >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Message-ID: ><E1NkoZU-0004Wr-Qn at elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >I was playing with Stein's suggestion in Conrad's >Lord Jim that "what is necessary is to the >destructive element submit yourself." Still pretty good advice. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 07:34 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote: > >It is Romantic only in the sense that it > >embraces immersion in the sensuality of > >experience and does not try to distance itself > >from this experience (what used to be called > >"subjectivity"). However it does not favor any > >particular frame of interpretation, so that this > >interpretation could be a clear recording of > >sense data, in the same way that Hubble > >photographed galaxies and only later found out they were all red-shifted. > > > > From the perspective of Integral theory, there > > is no strict division between "I", "we", > > "they", and "it" frames of reference (no > > division between "subject" & "object", etc). > > "I" and "we" may be objects of science, as "it" > > and "they" may be subjects personally > > experienced, as well as the other way around. > > Poetry stands to gain from opening to > scientific modes of thought & inquiry. > > > >Semiotics helps to distinguish between semantic > >frames of reference and the otherwise > >meaningless objects they invest with meaning, > >providing bridges between the quadrants. Robin > >for some time has been advocating for the > >revolution of de Saussure: how notions of "word > >& thing" are replaced by "sound image & > >concept". So all rigidity of thought melts and > >the world is allowed to be what it is: continuous flux. > > > > > >From: Mark Weiss > <junction at earthlink.net> > >Subject: Second thoughts Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jeffers > > > > > >It's also a pretty good description of science. > > > >At 12:33 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: > > >Sounds, in part, like a New Romanticism. > > > > > >c > > > > > >On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mark Weiss > > > <junction at earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > > I'd refine this very slightly. The willed > > act is I think the submerging in > > > > the world's apparent incoherence. How it > > eventually coheres is rather less > > > > willed. > > > > > > > > I like to think of it from the perspective > > of information theory. Think of > > > > all phenomena as without hierarchy or perceived pattern, an > > > > undifferentiated, informationless sea of data. That's the destructive > > > > element to which one submits oneself. The > path taken in the swim toward a > > > > presumed other side is the information--what's noticed, and how what's > > > > noticed becomes organized. Not knowable in advance. > > > > > > > > At 02:07 PM 2/20/2010, you wrote: > > > > > > > > I think Jeffers meant that the poet can provide clarity in times of > > > > confusion-- an act of bravery and a good reason to be a poet. > > > > > > > > What I meant is that the mind provides > > > intellectual coherence-- "meaning" if > > > > you will-- in what is essentially a meaningless world. > > > > > > > > Also, I'm referring back to the "mainstream" vs "post-avant" discussion > > > > without favoring either one: the poetry > of the former being in general a > > > > presentation of a world already made > > coherent, and the poetry of the latter > > > > being one in which the reader is presented with a world in a more raw, > > > > incoherent state that must by an act of will be made coherent. > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:39:57 -0500 > > > > From: > jforjames at aol.com > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 68, Issue 40 > > > > > > > > > > > > Or as Jeffers put it, > > > > > > > > > > > > "...it is not necessary, because an epoch is > > > confused, that its poets should > > > > share its confusions." > > > > > > > > ?Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 26 19:12:50 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:12:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] another satisfied customer Message-ID: <8CC8558BB866143-30D0-549B@webmail-m041.sysops.aol.com> http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/02/25/money-college-why-one-student-advises-avoiding-private-student/?icid=main|main|dl3|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.walletpop.com%2Fblog%2F2010%2F02%2F25%2Fmoney-college-why-one-student-advises-avoiding-private-student%2F I went to a private university, and besides Stafford loans, I took out private loans from Sallie Mae. I could not get a co-signer, as no one in my family has good credit, and in hindsight, I should have probably gone to a cheaper college or a community college (and gotten a degree in something other than English). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 27 04:23:47 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:23:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The knots by Laing In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002261408m3f7601e0me9ba2467804744@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71002261408m3f7601e0me9ba2467804744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <315933.88879.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Golly, yes, centuries ago, that's when I read it too, Anny,?I can feel cobwebs hanging from my shoulders. It sold numbers like the stars in the sky or their close relatives the?desert sands when Penguin issued it. What really stays in my memory from Laing are some of the descriptions of his patients from 'The Divided Self': I meet their like continually. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Fri, 26 February, 2010 22:08:49 Subject: [New-Poetry] The knots by Laing A great book I read centuries ago, and recently mentioned _wonderful to find it so quickly: http://www.amazon.com/Knots-R-D-Laing/dp/0394717767#reader_0394717767 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 08:08:57 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:08:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The knots by Laing In-Reply-To: <315933.88879.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <4b65c2d71002261408m3f7601e0me9ba2467804744@mail.gmail.com> <315933.88879.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002270508i18abff1fha6f6c1a9b871d6a6@mail.gmail.com> :-) On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:23 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote: > Golly, yes, centuries ago, that's when I read it too, Anny, I can feel > cobwebs hanging from my shoulders. It sold numbers like the stars in the sky > or their close relatives the desert sands when Penguin issued it. > > What really stays in my memory from Laing are some of the descriptions of > his patients from 'The Divided Self': I meet their like continually. > > David Bircumshaw > > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Fri, 26 February, 2010 22:08:49 > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] The knots by Laing > > A great book I read centuries ago, and recently mentioned _wonderful to > find it so quickly: > http://www.amazon.com/Knots-R-D-Laing/dp/0394717767#reader_0394717767 > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 27 11:27:04 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:27:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the aphorist - a play Message-ID: <8CC85E0D4C02795-1F08-44BF@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> http://www.oxfordtheatrereview.com/2010/02/14/the-aphorist-new-writing/ Fred: It?s drawing-room humour, a modern comedy of manners so everything is word based. One extreme of possibly not engaging theatre is the totally self-absorbed, the other is that which is entirely focussed on spectacle. If it didn?t sound incredibly arrogant, I would say I was trying to find something between, something maybe more about language. It was also obvious from the beginning that it would be put on at the BT in a small space so it was more or less written for its surroundings, knowing that I would direct it myself. Joe: It is quite a self-contained universe, rather than a play about wider issues ? Fred: ? hopefully it?s completely issueless. There?s a bit after Rudolph recites a poem about death, which he declares was inspired by Camus ? they say the poem twists the knife in society ? but of course it doesn?t. It?s weird talking about it ? having a kind of self-analysis. It was originally about what I call pseuds ? a dramatised version of that. Lots of us would be happy to walk around in velvet jackets and talk about Sartre and The Prelude. It?s all about self-consciousness - Joe: ? how you can get away with acting in this way in a specific context. Rudolph has an audience that allows him to think he is a genius. Fred: Harry is aware of Rudolph?s bullshit while indulging in it himself ? what he tries to deny he indulges in private. As English students we know how easy it is to turn every sentence in an essay into some little phrase about the author so the play dramatises what happens to everyone ? you say ?I could never be like that? but find yourself slipping into it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 27 11:49:13 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:49:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute Message-ID: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this recent entry: http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 27 12:18:35 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:18:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Yes, the blogs are abuzz. This is largely what I posted in comment stream to one: Alpaugh wrote a very similar piece in 2003 for Poets & Writers magazine. It was called "The Professionalization of Poetry," and in that article he primarily focused on the proliferaton of MFAs in Poetry. http://www.houstonpoetryreview.net/fall2003_review_001.html In some ways his 'New Math' piece is really a retread. This time it's books and other publishing outlets that are much too much for him. A different question is why would Poets & Writers or The Chronicle of Higher Ed offer space to such nonsense. The answer is that their editors know the piece is simple-minded provocation and it will attract a hue & cry, and that backlash translates into readership interest. So in that way this is a case someone 'pulling your chain'. We rail against Alpaugh's idiocy and we play our part in an orchestrated controversy. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 11:49 am Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this recent entry: http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 27 12:36:27 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:36:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <541DE00E-165A-44C6-B9FA-5471726A408C@ripon.edu> Good points. On a sabbatical two years ago I adopted the informal project of turning up as many good and new-to-me poets as I could while I had the leisure of some extra reading time. Since I live in a rural area far from big libraries and bookstores, my main method was online research. Very soon I realized that it wasn't much of a project, in that it was simply too easy. I could "discover" a new, excellent poet every day if I wished to. I did so pretty much as Chris Lott advises, by tuning in to a few blogs by poets & poetry readers I admire, by looking at online journals, by following up on recommendations on Facebook & elsewhere, etc. Links led to links, and so forth. And a few old fashioned tips from face-to-face encounters, readings, and trips to cities with actual bookstores. I didn't tweet, but didn't need to. And didn't look much at print journals. At the end of my leave my mental poetry library was considerably enlarged, particularly with poets of the next generation or two younger than myself. These are often poets who have a much greater online footprint than oldsters like myself, who are actively engaged in the kind of networking Chris Lott mentions. I guess I'm online more than many in my age bracket, but nothing compared to some of these folks. I read as much contemporary poetry as anyone I know. More than many. But I learned that quite a few 30-some poets who were entirely new to me turned out to have several print collections out, along with a certain fan base on the internet. So I am even less patient with articles like Alpaugh's than I was before. Anyone who thinks we're not living in a time of remarkably diverse, interesting, and quality poetry either isn't paying attention or is willfully blind. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:18 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Yes, the blogs are abuzz. This is largely what I posted in comment stream to one: > > Alpaugh wrote a very similar piece in 2003 for Poets & Writers magazine. It was called "The Professionalization of Poetry," and in that article he primarily focused on the proliferaton of MFAs in Poetry. > http://www.houstonpoetryreview.net/fall2003_review_001.html > In some ways his 'New Math' piece is really a retread. This time it's books and other publishing outlets that are much too much for him. > > A different question is why would Poets & Writers or The Chronicle of Higher Ed offer space to such nonsense. The answer is that their editors know the piece is simple-minded provocation and it will attract a hue & cry, and that backlash translates into readership interest. > So in that way this is a case someone 'pulling your chain'. We rail against Alpaugh's idiocy and we play our part in an orchestrated controversy. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views > Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 11:49 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute > > Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this recent entry: > > http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > = > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 27 12:40:23 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:40:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: His taste is awful, or at least very limited, and he knows very little about what's happening in Britain (which is apparently also true of Fenton), where a great deal of under-recognized non-son-of-Movement poetry is being written and where (not connected) writing programs are fast on the rise. But he's absolutely right that the professionalization of poetry is a very bad thing, tho it may be very good for a few very good poets. But I've had this argument before. To many I've had it with have a vested interest in the industry. In any event, it's too late to do much about it, given the usual immortality of bureaucracies and their endless hunger. Best, Mark At 12:18 PM 2/27/2010, you wrote: >Yes, the blogs are abuzz. This is largely what I posted in comment >stream to one: > >Alpaugh wrote a very similar piece in 2003 for Poets & Writers >magazine. It was called "The Professionalization of Poetry," and in >that article he primarily focused on the proliferaton of MFAs in Poetry. >http://www.houstonpoetryreview.net/fall2003_review_001.html >In some ways his 'New Math' piece is really a retread. This time >it's books and other publishing outlets that are much too much for him. > >A different question is why would Poets & Writers or The Chronicle >of Higher Ed offer space to such nonsense. The answer is that their >editors know the piece is simple-minded provocation and it will >attract a hue & cry, and that backlash translates into readership interest. >So in that way this is a case someone 'pulling your chain'. We rail >against Alpaugh's idiocy and we play our part in an orchestrated controversy. > >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Graham >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views >Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 11:49 am >Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute > >Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this >recent entry: > >http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ > > > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >= > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 12:44:24 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:44:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <541DE00E-165A-44C6-B9FA-5471726A408C@ripon.edu> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <541DE00E-165A-44C6-B9FA-5471726A408C@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Interesting that in gmail, Alpaugh brings up all sorts of ads for dog food, dog and cat grooming, etc. Alpaugh = Alpo?? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:36 AM, David Graham wrote: > Good points. On a sabbatical two years ago I adopted the informal project > of turning up as many good and new-to-me poets as I could while I had the > leisure of some extra reading time. Since I live in a rural area far from > big libraries and bookstores, my main method was online research. Very soon > I realized that it wasn't much of a project, in that it was simply too easy. > > > I could "discover" a new, excellent poet every day if I wished to. I did > so pretty much as Chris Lott advises, by tuning in to a few blogs by poets & > poetry readers I admire, by looking at online journals, by following up on > recommendations on Facebook & elsewhere, etc. Links led to links, and so > forth. And a few old fashioned tips from face-to-face encounters, readings, > and trips to cities with actual bookstores. I didn't tweet, but didn't need > to. And didn't look much at print journals. > > At the end of my leave my mental poetry library was considerably enlarged, > particularly with poets of the next generation or two younger than myself. > These are often poets who have a much greater online footprint than > oldsters like myself, who are actively engaged in the kind of networking > Chris Lott mentions. I guess I'm online more than many in my age bracket, > but nothing compared to some of these folks. > > I read as much contemporary poetry as anyone I know. More than many. But > I learned that quite a few 30-some poets who were entirely new to me turned > out to have several print collections out, along with a certain fan base on > the internet. > > So I am even less patient with articles like Alpaugh's than I was before. > Anyone who thinks we're not living in a time of remarkably diverse, > interesting, and quality poetry either isn't paying attention or is > willfully blind. > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:18 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Yes, the blogs are abuzz. This is largely what I posted in comment stream > to one: > > Alpaugh wrote a very similar piece in 2003 for Poets & Writers magazine. It > was called "The Professionalization of Poetry," and in that article > he primarily focused on the proliferaton of MFAs in Poetry. > http://www.houstonpoetryreview.net/fall2003_review_001.html > In some ways his 'New Math' piece is really a retread. This time it's books > and other publishing outlets that are much too much for him. > > A different question is why would Poets & Writers or The Chronicle of > Higher Ed offer space to such nonsense. The answer is that their editors > know the piece is simple-minded provocation and it will attract a hue & cry, > and that backlash translates into readership interest. > So in that way this is a case someone 'pulling your chain'. We rail against > Alpaugh's idiocy and we play our part in an orchestrated controversy. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views > Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 11:49 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute > > Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this recent > entry: > > > http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 27 13:30:39 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:30:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> When the professionalization of poetry is said to be a bad thing, often it is the students who are cast as victims of the system that attracts them into a degree program without real prospects on the other end (post graduation). I'm not sure I believe that, but I want to change the focus a bit... What about the teachers of creative writing? I'm not a teacher but I've 'taught' a few guest classes and workshops; and I've prepared and delivered a few formal talks/lectures. And what I've found, overwhelmingly, is that the 'process of teaching' requires, at least of me, deep and thorough thinking about one's subject. You have study, you have to revisit old resources (key texts and the like) to prepare yourself to address your subject in an articulate and meaningful manner. This process inevitably leads you to question some of your assumptions about the subject, and often the process prods you down alternate paths of inquiry (towards new useful texts) that are in turn useful to your own practice (your poetry). Teaching changes your art. At least I've found that to be the case in my limited experience. So perhaps it could be said that having more poets engaged in the process of teaching poetry brings the greatest benefit to that far-flung and numerous faculty group who are among our publishing poets. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute His taste is awful, or at least very limited, and he knows very little about what's happening in Britain (which is apparently also true of Fenton), where a great deal of under-recognized non-son-of-Movement poetry is being written and where (not connected) writing programs are fast on the rise. But he's absolutely right that the professionalization of poetry is a very bad thing, tho it may be very good for a few very good poets. But I've had this argument before. To many I've had it with have a vested interest in the industry. In any event, it's too late to do much about it, given the usual immortality of bureaucracies and their endless hunger. Best, Mark At 12:18 PM 2/27/2010, you wrote: Yes, the blogs are abuzz. This is largely what I posted in comment stream to one: Alpaugh wrote a very similar piece in 2003 for Poets & Writers magazine. It was called "The Professionalization of Poetry," and in that article he primarily focused on the proliferaton of MFAs in Poetry. http://www.houstonpoetryreview.net/fall2003_review_001.html In some ways his 'New Math' piece is really a retread. This time it's books and other publishing outlets that are much too much for him. A different question is why would Poets & Writers or The Chronicle of Higher Ed offer space to such nonsense. The answer is that their editors know the piece is simple-minded provocation and it will attract a hue & cry, and that backlash translates into readership interest. So in that way this is a case someone 'pulling your chain'. We rail against Alpaugh's idiocy and we play our part in an orchestrated controversy. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 11:49 am Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute Chris Lott's always interesting blog is particularly good in this recent entry: http://cosmopoetica.com/blog/story/the-new-math-of-poetry-does-not-compute/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 14:34:05 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:34:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think the implication of the article is that "official verse culture" is still the home of college profs., and is not online. There are more prizes, but they are going to the same people, and it is now more necessary to win a prize in order to get the college prof. job that makes it easier to win prizes (two of the most spectacular recent MFA program tenure track hires have been younger white guys who have won lots of prestigious prizes but haven't published "too much"). And also, the longer someone is in academia, and/or the more respected a person is as a poet, the less their work appears online. To the point where the poet and/or her publishers actually has work taken down, erased, unarchived. So while I agree that teaching deepens my approach to poetry, I wonder if you're reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed but don't know about blogs, is this a sign to get out? How would you know what you don't know? In particular, for the past 20 years, the internet has been ideal for poetry, and poetry responded. But internet/cable tv/music video/reality broadcasting (which is usually written)/more scripted programming is changing again. So there you see committees looking for a poet who can teach composition and also teach screenwriting, because they see that things are changing and student desire to be prepared for a creative job market responds, but they look at people with old school qualifications, not new ones: degrees in new media or cinema rather than experience actually doing the stuff. The reason this is so disappointing is that there WAS a brief window of time when the town/gown divide was breached, when the doers were teaching. > This process inevitably > leads you to question some of your assumptions?about the subject, and often > the process prods you down alternate paths of inquiry (towards new useful > texts)?that are in?turn useful to your own practice (your poetry). Teaching > changes your art. At least I've found that to be the case in my limited > experience. > > So perhaps it could be said that having more poets engaged in the process > of?teaching poetry brings the?greatest benefit to that?far-flung and > numerous faculty group?who are?among our publishing poets. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Feb 27 23:47:05 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:47:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] On the Poetic Line, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B99A37982974532A5D9F379C7205AD3@RobinLaptopPC> ... among other things. Tom Leonard on Pound, WCW, cummings [sic], ending with Paul Blackburn. http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/online-poetry-a-prose/the-common-breath.html Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 01:53:48 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:53:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Finnegan said: << When the professionalization of poetry is said to be a bad thing, often it is the students who are cast as victims of the system that attracts them into a degree program without real prospects on the other end (post graduation). I'm not sure I believe that, but I want to change the focus a bit... >> This conflates two things to do with the entire MFA system -- the teaching element, and the way in which (though this is related) that it institutionalises poetry, It's also worth remembering that the current MFA-isation of British poetry is an import from America, overlaid on an earlier Group system. (I avoid the term "Workshop" here, as the term has developed an overlap with the teaching of poetry within an institutional context, as well as the existence of semi-taught systems outside universities.) The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and the two are antithetical. So there. Robin From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 04:12:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:12:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002280112qd16976eseea7927248c9569@mail.gmail.com> I think that in MFA programs you have to deal with people. A professor is a person. Your mates are people. You also have the choice to join the MFA program you think is best for you. As you all well know, the personality of a human being escapes theories. It is easier to define a society than a single being. This to say that nobody ever told me how to write poetry. Although I have an MFA. And you have to take several courses in poetry. You simply work more. You have to produce more and read more poetry. At home you would never open a book of poetry before coffee in the morning because you have to have it read by the evening and criticized by the following morning. You would take your time, sip your coffee comfortably, look around, choose the Poet of the day, sit down in your armchair and start leafing through, maybe to reach the poem you prefer to read it for the thousandth time. Academia does not have these spaces nor times. And Robin should know it because he was professor at university, curated an edition of John Donne, and so forth. Your intake of material is enormous, then you have to work it through. Your commitments are unending, and you always end up knowing that you do not know enough. Just for this simple reason, MFA programs are superb. The System is the System. As I said before, why not look at stock brokers, politicians, some critics, or some fantasy writers that clog our daily lives with useless garbage? How many MFA graduates have disturbed you personally? What have they done to you? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:53 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Finnegan said: > > << > When the professionalization of poetry is said to be a bad thing, often it > is the students who are cast as victims of the system that attracts them > into a degree program without real prospects on the other end (post > graduation). I'm not sure I believe that, but I want to change the focus a > bit... > >> >>> > This conflates two things to do with the entire MFA system -- the teaching > element, and the way in which (though this is related) that it > institutionalises poetry, > > It's also worth remembering that the current MFA-isation of British poetry > is an import from America, overlaid on an earlier Group system. (I avoid > the term "Workshop" here, as the term has developed an overlap with the > teaching of poetry within an institutional context, as well as the existence > of semi-taught systems outside universities.) > > The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and > the two are antithetical. > > So there. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sun Feb 28 10:20:20 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:20:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> can you describe the group system a bit? On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Finnegan said: > > << > When the professionalization of poetry is said to be a bad thing, often it > is the students who are cast as victims of the system that attracts them > into a degree program without real prospects on the other end (post > graduation). I'm not sure I believe that, but I want to change the focus a > bit... >>> > > This conflates two things to do with the entire MFA system -- the teaching > element, and the way in which (though this is related) that it > institutionalises poetry, > > It's also worth remembering that the current MFA-isation of British poetry > is an import from America, overlaid on an earlier Group system. ?(I avoid > the term "Workshop" here, as the term has developed an overlap with the > teaching of poetry within an institutional context, as well as the existence > of semi-taught systems outside universities.) > > The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and > the two are antithetical. > > So there. ? > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 11:03:35 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:03:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC86A6B784A9AE-47DC-1980B@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> I'm interested in the answer to that question too. Is the group system peer-to-peer rather than students-teacher (leader) in typical MFA worshop model? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 10:20 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute can you describe the group system a bit? On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Robin Hamilton robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: Finnegan said: << When the professionalization of poetry is said to be a bad thing, often it is the students who are cast as victims of the system that attracts them into a degree program without real prospects on the other end (post graduation). I'm not sure I believe that, but I want to change the focus a bit... >> This conflates two things to do with the entire MFA system -- the teaching element, and the way in which (though this is related) that it institutionalises poetry, It's also worth remembering that the current MFA-isation of British poetry is an import from America, overlaid on an earlier Group system. (I avoid the term "Workshop" here, as the term has developed an overlap with the teaching of poetry within an institutional context, as well as the existence of semi-taught systems outside universities.) The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and the two are antithetical. So there. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- onnie Voisine ssociate Professor of English ew Mexico State University voisine at nmsu.edu 75-646-2027 _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 11:07:44 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:07:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > can you describe the group system a bit? I'm in the process of a longer response to Anny's post, but I'll pause to elaborate on this slightly. In some ways, the Group System was simply a formalization of what had always happened (and presumably still does happen) among poets -- what springs to mind is Keats' involvement with Leigh Hunt and other writers in London in the early nineteenth century, but it could be carried back to at least Sidney and Greville (and friends) in the late sixteenth century. It seems, at least in England, to be the "natural" (if there is such a thing) way for poets to train themselves and develop, insofar as they ever do get together, and not quite the same as the atelier system which lies behind courses in the plastic arts. Where it became formalized (and gained a specific name) was in Cambridge in the late fifties, Belfast in the early sixties, and Glasgow in the middle to late sixties onward, in each case focused around a poet called Philip Hobsbaum. (The original Cambridge Group -- containing among others Ted Hughes, Peter Redgrove, Peter Porter and David Wevill -- was organized jointly by Hobsbaum and Edward Lucie Smith. This collection of poets eventually produced an anthology called, appropriately enough, _A Group Anthology_. Lucie Smith went on to found the London Group, at the same time that Hobsbaum migrated to Belfast and founded the Belfast Group, with Seamus Heaney, Michael Longley, Derek Mahon, Paul Muldoon, etc.) The model was simple -- the criterion for membership was to be a practicing, not necessarily published, writer. Work by a member was copied ahead of time and circulated before a meeting where it was discussed and commented on by the members of the group who would be at that session. There would usually be at least a two-thirds attendance at any time. Another criterion was that every member had to regularly contribute as well as take part in the discussion. Usually there was a filter system -- what constitutes a practicing writer? after all -- and at an extreme this could be formalized by the ability to specifically exclude new candidates. It never came to this, in my experience, groups being pretty much self-regulating and self-chosen. This spawned (and was probably proceeded and accompanied by) writers groups, or workshops, affiliated to such things as local literary societies, etc., working on roughly the same model. Where this differed from the MFA model was that there was never any setting of themes, etc., no single person had any special authority, though someone usually had to take charge of organizing place and time, distributing material, etc.), no teaching as such took place (though all the groups I was involved with were located in universities, and most of the members would be pursuing an English degree). As a result, while there was never any formal scholarly or academic component to the group as such, the Group situation in a university could be seen as effectively pretty closely comparable to covering the range of ground encompassed, as far as I understand it, in an MFA course. Except that it wasn't limited to graduate students who had been interviewed and offered a place on the course, and led to no *formal qualification. And while it might take place in a university setting, and have participants to an extent drawn from university staff and (mostly) students, it was in no way affiliated to the university, supported (financially or otherwise) or endorsed by the university, or essentially, *formally linked to it in any way. Also, while there might effectively be an organizer, there was no one with the special status as "teacher". Just all writers together. (In my personal experience, groups usually took in roughly a fifteen year age span -- after that, status, achievement, reputation, and extra-creative things came into play, which led to a different ball game.) Open ended, relatively unstructured, with a partly fluctuating membership might be other characteristics which defined the Group. Basically, a peer group model of poetic training in contrast to a teaching model, and one over which the academic institution had no leverage whatsoever. I'll leave it at that for the moment, and maybe recap or expand a bit if I come back to it in my response to Anny. Robin >> The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, >> and >> the two are antithetical. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 11:10:56 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:10:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <8CC86A6B784A9AE-47DC-1980B@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86A6B784A9AE-47DC-1980B@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9814773FFB9647CA94DFD1AD03216BAF@RobinLaptopPC> The quick answer (see my just posted post) would be "yes". Though there is a little bit more to it than that. But what you pick out below would certainly be a crucial aspect. (I like your typo -- a "worshop" as a workshop with worship built in. Now what does that remind me of? ) Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute I'm interested in the answer to that question too. Is the group system peer-to-peer rather than students-teacher (leader) in typical MFA worshop model? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Feb 28 11:16:08 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:16:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute Message-ID: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> The workshop and the group are not antithetical at all since they both have the same purpose--to get better poems. I'm not quite sure I perceive the drawbacks in having an experienced poet-teacher running a workshop. Certainly one learns a lot from one's peers, especially once the apprentice years are over, but a good teacher can save a beginning writer (or a beginning anything) a lot of time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 11:22:30 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:22:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002280822j365f1d03i7b06d0c50e416044@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I agree with Al. I was going to type just about the same, given also the different ages of the participants, from 20-something year old students to over 60-year old participants. Robin was a gentleman in underlying - *as far as I know* - he has probably never taken part in a workshop held at a university and just taught his subjects. As a matter of fact, I think that what you just described Robin, is what happens in a poetry workshop. The professor is there, s/he speaks for those who wish to listen. What she actually does is that s/he represents the authority by which poems have to be written and commented, if you do not, you will not receive an A. And if you do not give your best in performing this task, again here goes the riddle, you will not receive an A. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:16 PM, wrote: > The workshop and the group are not antithetical at all since they both > have the same purpose--to get better poems. > > I'm not quite sure I perceive the drawbacks in having an experienced > poet-teacher running a workshop. Certainly one learns a lot from one's > peers, especially once the apprentice years are over, but a good teacher can > save a beginning writer (or a beginning anything) a lot of time. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 11:26:21 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu><8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com><8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC86A9E57166DC-47DC-19BD8@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> When you "havent't pubIished 'too much,'" I'm not certain what you mean. One book should, if it's a good one, be more than enough to prove someone's poetic chops. At times I'll see in bios of relatively young poets statements like, 'X has published over 50 books and chapbooks'. Numbers like that don't impress me. In fact I'm likely to wonder what that mass output is trying cover up? It's not a crime to be prolific in one's writing, but I do wonder whether there is not something a little desperate about someone who is pushing out books at a furious pace. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute I think the implication of the article is that "official verse ulture" is still the home of college profs., and is not online. here are more prizes, but they are going to the same people, and it s now more necessary to win a prize in order to get the college prof. ob that makes it easier to win prizes (two of the most spectacular ecent MFA program tenure track hires have been younger white guys who ave won lots of prestigious prizes but haven't published "too much"). And also, the longer someone is in academia, and/or the more espected a person is as a poet, the less their work appears online. o the point where the poet and/or her publishers actually has work aken down, erased, unarchived. So while I agree that teaching deepens my approach to poetry, I wonder f you're reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed but don't know about logs, is this a sign to get out? How would you know what you don't now? In particular, for the past 20 years, the internet has been ideal for oetry, and poetry responded. But internet/cable tv/music ideo/reality broadcasting (which is usually written)/more scripted rogramming is changing again. So there you see committees looking or a poet who can teach composition and also teach screenwriting, ecause they see that things are changing and student desire to be repared for a creative job market responds, but they look at people ith old school qualifications, not new ones: degrees in new media or inema rather than experience actually doing the stuff. The reason his is so disappointing is that there WAS a brief window of time when he town/gown divide was breached, when the doers were teaching. > This process inevitably leads you to question some of your assumptions about the subject, and often the process prods you down alternate paths of inquiry (towards new useful texts) that are in turn useful to your own practice (your poetry). Teaching changes your art. At least I've found that to be the case in my limited experience. So perhaps it could be said that having more poets engaged in the process of teaching poetry brings the greatest benefit to that far-flung and numerous faculty group who are among our publishing poets. -- ll best, atherine Daly .a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 11:33:43 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:33:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is very close to the taller in Mexico, except that these aren't always at universities. What you describe as the prehistory--informal meetings of poet-friends--was precisely my schooling. Older poets were very generous, and peers shared their enthusiasms, including our own latest work, and criticized in detail. The devouring of poetry that Anny describes was what we did, despite having working lives apart. Basically, we didn't sleep much. It was an exciting time. Not readily available in a lot of places in the US, and part of the justification for the MFA system is that it's less centralized--this is a very big country, and it can be a hardship to move to New York, Boston, Baltimore, SF, a few other places with a history of poet gatherings. I've never been very sympathetic to this argument. For one, a lot of poets develop with neither formal university training nor the constant company of other writers. But more important, a city with major cultural institutions, formal and informal, is also an education. I can teach an Iowan some things about poetry in Iowa, but I can't assume that he or she will wander in a daze through the Metropolitan until bursting at the seams with art, nor that said young poet will seek out dance or drama in chilly lofts at less than the price of a snack, etc. And that for many of us is a part of our training. And worth the displacement. Best, Mark At 11:07 AM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >>can you describe the group system a bit? > >I'm in the process of a longer response to Anny's post, but I'll >pause to elaborate on this slightly. > >In some ways, the Group System was simply a formalization of what >had always happened (and presumably still does happen) among poets >-- what springs to mind is Keats' involvement with Leigh Hunt and >other writers in London in the early nineteenth century, but it >could be carried back to at least Sidney and Greville (and friends) >in the late sixteenth century. It seems, at least in England, to be >the "natural" (if there is such a thing) way for poets to train >themselves and develop, insofar as they ever do get together, and >not quite the same as the atelier system which lies behind courses >in the plastic arts. > >Where it became formalized (and gained a specific name) was in >Cambridge in the late fifties, Belfast in the early sixties, and >Glasgow in the middle to late sixties onward, in each case focused >around a poet called Philip Hobsbaum. (The original Cambridge Group >-- containing among others Ted Hughes, Peter Redgrove, Peter Porter >and David Wevill -- was organized jointly by Hobsbaum and Edward >Lucie Smith. This collection of poets eventually produced an >anthology called, appropriately enough, _A Group Anthology_. Lucie >Smith went on to found the London Group, at the same time that >Hobsbaum migrated to Belfast and founded the Belfast Group, with >Seamus Heaney, Michael Longley, Derek Mahon, Paul Muldoon, etc.) > >The model was simple -- the criterion for membership was to be a >practicing, not necessarily published, writer. Work by a member was >copied ahead of time and circulated before a meeting where it was >discussed and commented on by the members of the group who would be >at that session. There would usually be at least a two-thirds >attendance at any time. Another criterion was that every member had >to regularly contribute as well as take part in the >discussion. Usually there was a filter system -- what constitutes a >practicing writer? after all -- and at an extreme this could be >formalized by the ability to specifically exclude new >candidates. It never came to this, in my experience, groups being >pretty much self-regulating and self-chosen. > >This spawned (and was probably proceeded and accompanied by) writers >groups, or workshops, affiliated to such things as local literary >societies, etc., working on roughly the same model. > >Where this differed from the MFA model was that there was never any >setting of themes, etc., no single person had any special authority, >though someone usually had to take charge of organizing place and >time, distributing material, etc.), no teaching as such took place >(though all the groups I was involved with were located in >universities, and most of the members would be pursuing an English >degree). As a result, while there was never any formal scholarly or >academic component to the group as such, the Group situation in a >university could be seen as effectively pretty closely comparable to >covering the range of ground encompassed, as far as I understand it, >in an MFA course. > >Except that it wasn't limited to graduate students who had been >interviewed and offered a place on the course, and led to no *formal >qualification. And while it might take place in a university >setting, and have participants to an extent drawn from university >staff and (mostly) students, it was in no way affiliated to the >university, supported (financially or otherwise) or endorsed by the >university, or essentially, *formally linked to it in any >way. Also, while there might effectively be an organizer, there was >no one with the special status as "teacher". Just all writers >together. (In my personal experience, groups usually took in >roughly a fifteen year age span -- after that, status, achievement, >reputation, and extra-creative things came into play, which led to a >different ball game.) Open ended, relatively unstructured, with a >partly fluctuating membership might be other characteristics which >defined the Group. > >Basically, a peer group model of poetic training in contrast to a >teaching model, and one over which the academic institution had no >leverage whatsoever. > >I'll leave it at that for the moment, and maybe recap or expand a >bit if I come back to it in my response to Anny. > >Robin > >>>The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and >>>the two are antithetical. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 11:43:24 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:43:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> Message-ID: Or waste a lot of time. One finds one's own way. Hopefully. But why the hurry? Do poets really need to be mature at 23? "Apprentice years" goes back to the discussion of art vs craft (was that on this list?). I can tell a carpentry student to build a bench by next week. It's a lot more complicated to tell a poetry student to write a sonnet, nature poem, whatever, by next week. Presumably we expect the poetry student to have a deep emotional investment in the assignment. There's an assumption, I think, that a poet's basic education ends at some point. I'm with Olson: "I have had to learn the simplest things last." He started writing in his 40s, was it? Best, Mark >I'm not quite sure I perceive the drawbacks in having an experienced >poet-teacher running a workshop. Certainly one learns a lot from >one's peers, especially once the apprentice years are over, but a >good teacher can save a beginning writer (or a beginning anything) a >lot of time. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 12:01:34 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:01:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska Message-ID: <8CC86AED118574A-47DC-1A2DC@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS5gjNs6R-8yD12iTBeBGf4ypUawD9E57P5G0 New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska WARSAW, Poland ? A rare documentary about Nobel Prize winning poet Wislawa Szymborska portrays a lively yet distinguished woman who savors the world's contrasts, from 17th-century Dutch painting to boxing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk Sun Feb 28 12:20:40 2010 From: editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk (Roger Collett) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:20:40 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <1846D2CDFAD3404DA40E9A6C7E0577E2@ROCKY> Groups as described still exist. There is a group in Cumbria that meets monthly at the organiser's house. Members are not academics and not necessarily published. At each meeting, printed copies of poems (one per member) are put up for discussion. The group member reads his/her poem and is then not allowed to speak until each and every other member has made their comments on the poem. The reading order is decided by seating arrangement and starts at a randomly selected seat (decided by spinning an arrow in the centre of the floor) and then proceeds in a clockwise direction. This is a very effective way to assess ones work on a peer-to-peer basis. Roger Collett Arrowhead Press http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." Jules de Gaultier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 12:31:49 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:31:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002280822j365f1d03i7b06d0c50e416044@mail.gmail.com> References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> <4b65c2d71002280822j365f1d03i7b06d0c50e416044@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3403E14497B64AFC89ADB8E05C10F18A@RobinLaptopPC> << Robin was a gentleman in underlying - as far as I know - he has probably never taken part in a workshop held at a university and just taught his subjects. >> You're almost right, Anny, with two exceptions. I taught (for one term) an undergraduate class in creative writing (reluctantly), and I participated, as "member of the audience" in a formal workshop session taught by the Welsh poet, Rob Minhinick. That was a laugh and a half, and I could have cheerfully murdered Rob for the way he neatly used me as a lay figure, but I have to admit that Rob was really good at it, and the audience got an immense amount of enjoyment from the session. Whether any worthwhile poems were produced is another matter. But I'll try and take this up in my longer reply to your earlier response. << As a matter of fact, I think that what you just described Robin, is what happens in a poetry workshop. The professor is there, s/he speaks for those who wish to listen. What she actually does is that s/he represents the authority by which poems have to be written and commented, if you do not, you will not receive an A. And if you do not give your best in performing this task, again here goes the riddle, you will not receive an A. >> I'm inclined to say, "Yes ... but ... exactly!!" But again, more on this at greater length anon. To Al: << The workshop and the group are not antithetical at all since they both have the same purpose--to get better poems. >> Possibly, though I beg to differ, but I *do think there are ways -- at least in my experience -- where the insitutionalisation of poetry teaching in universities *is antithetical. It's not just the assignment of marks, though this is part of it, but the whole authority structure that even Anny hints at above. I seem to be saying that poets can't learn from other than their peers, which isn't necessarily so. I've learned a hell of a lot myself from several poets dead well before I was born. Also, I was taught by the now foremost living Scottish poet, Edwin Morgan, as an undergraduate. But we discussed Scottish Literature, not my or his poetry, when I was his student. Though I later wrote an article on his work, interviewed him, and contributed to his feschrift. But (other than in a review at one point, where he wasn't exactly complimentary) I can't ever remember showing any of my poems to Eddie, or knowing what he thought of them, even after I ceased to be his student. (Well, that's not entirely true -- I suppose he must have liked my writing, since he was my formal sponser for the ACGB award that bought me six months of full-time writing.) The whole thing in my mind is complicated, and I'm aware that I see the (negative) institutionalisation of poetry as (perhaps unfairly) linked to the teaching component of the MFA system. But really, while I abstractly and from a distance distrust and disapprove of MFA courses, that is frankly nothing to the venom and fury which memories of specific instances of the way in which universities have in my personal experience unfairly treated undergraduate writers is capable of producing in me. Of which more in the other still-continuing post. << I'm not quite sure I perceive the drawbacks in having an experienced poet-teacher running a workshop. Certainly one learns a lot from one's peers, especially once the apprentice years are over, but a good teacher can save a beginning writer (or a beginning anything) a lot of time. >> Maybe. But there's a price to pay once you insert this into Da System. Robin From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 12:35:21 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, we USAers call those "scenes." Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > can you describe the group system a bit? >> > > I'm in the process of a longer response to Anny's post, but I'll pause to > elaborate on this slightly. > > In some ways, the Group System was simply a formalization of what had > always happened (and presumably still does happen) among poets -- what > springs to mind is Keats' involvement with Leigh Hunt and other writers in > London in the early nineteenth century, but it could be carried back to at > least Sidney and Greville (and friends) in the late sixteenth century. It > seems, at least in England, to be the "natural" (if there is such a thing) > way for poets to train themselves and develop, insofar as they ever do get > together, and not quite the same as the atelier system which lies behind > courses in the plastic arts. > > Where it became formalized (and gained a specific name) was in Cambridge in > the late fifties, Belfast in the early sixties, and Glasgow in the middle to > late sixties onward, in each case focused around a poet called Philip > Hobsbaum. (The original Cambridge Group -- containing among others Ted > Hughes, Peter Redgrove, Peter Porter and David Wevill -- was organized > jointly by Hobsbaum and Edward Lucie Smith. This collection of poets > eventually produced an anthology called, appropriately enough, _A Group > Anthology_. Lucie Smith went on to found the London Group, at the same time > that Hobsbaum migrated to Belfast and founded the Belfast Group, with Seamus > Heaney, Michael Longley, Derek Mahon, Paul Muldoon, etc.) > > The model was simple -- the criterion for membership was to be a > practicing, not necessarily published, writer. Work by a member was copied > ahead of time and circulated before a meeting where it was discussed and > commented on by the members of the group who would be at that session. > There would usually be at least a two-thirds attendance at any time. > Another criterion was that every member had to regularly contribute as well > as take part in the discussion. Usually there was a filter system -- what > constitutes a practicing writer? after all -- and at an extreme this could > be formalized by the ability to specifically exclude new candidates. It > never came to this, in my experience, groups being pretty much > self-regulating and self-chosen. > > This spawned (and was probably proceeded and accompanied by) writers > groups, or workshops, affiliated to such things as local literary societies, > etc., working on roughly the same model. > > Where this differed from the MFA model was that there was never any setting > of themes, etc., no single person had any special authority, though someone > usually had to take charge of organizing place and time, distributing > material, etc.), no teaching as such took place (though all the groups I was > involved with were located in universities, and most of the members would be > pursuing an English degree). As a result, while there was never any formal > scholarly or academic component to the group as such, the Group situation in > a university could be seen as effectively pretty closely comparable to > covering the range of ground encompassed, as far as I understand it, in an > MFA course. > > Except that it wasn't limited to graduate students who had been interviewed > and offered a place on the course, and led to no *formal qualification. And > while it might take place in a university setting, and have participants to > an extent drawn from university staff and (mostly) students, it was in no > way affiliated to the university, supported (financially or otherwise) or > endorsed by the university, or essentially, *formally linked to it in any > way. Also, while there might effectively be an organizer, there was no one > with the special status as "teacher". Just all writers together. (In my > personal experience, groups usually took in roughly a fifteen year age span > -- after that, status, achievement, reputation, and extra-creative things > came into play, which led to a different ball game.) Open ended, relatively > unstructured, with a partly fluctuating membership might be other > characteristics which defined the Group. > > Basically, a peer group model of poetic training in contrast to a teaching > model, and one over which the academic institution had no leverage > whatsoever. > > I'll leave it at that for the moment, and maybe recap or expand a bit if I > come back to it in my response to Anny. > > Robin > > > The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, and >>> the two are antithetical. >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 12:49:53 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:49:53 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> Message-ID: when I moved to LA from New York, there were local poets leading private workshops -- more of this sort of thing than anything else -- and group of "performance poets" around the different open mike nights, etc. -- one group founded a non profit, then several non profits started -- there were some collective presses; I felt the models were that of private acting study or AA -- there seemed to be more toleration of giving someone $20 a week than for taking a course than in New York, and also for getting together around coffee so as not to be in a bar somewhere, but I suppose it is probably easier to get ten people together in LA than in New York for a major world city, there were so few things going on that it was possible to find out about most of them in any case, the private workshop leaders (the USC faculty and friends had a group that was an exception) weren't terribly knowledgeable about poetry, and I felt tended to hold people back by parceling out limited information very slowly and convincing other poets that they were still "beginners" and maybe not ready for something scary like reading and writing. the group of poets was self-sufficient enough to allow these sort of anti-intellectual attitudes to run wild; if it is an apprenticeship, there had better be a master craftsman around (for the experimental poets, there were those) then the internet and more MFA programs and low res courses happened. it was AMAZING when the open mic poets found out about the New York School. but the better poets did get degrees (a lot of them had skipped college -- that acting thing), pursue publishing their work, teach at least part time, etc. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 28 12:59:51 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:59:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> While I think some version of the Iowa workshop model still probably holds sway at most MFA programs and many undergraduate writing programs in the US, there are increasingly people within academe who are experimenting with other modes of teaching poetry writing. Anyone who's attended the AWP Pedagogy Panels over the past decade, for instance, will know how highly contested such matters are, and evolving. Increasingly so, as far as I can discern. See Tom C. Hunley's book, *Teaching Poetry Writing: A Five-Canon Approach* (2007) for a discussion of the issue as well as one spirited alternative to the Iowa model. And my impression is that, at schools without MFA programs, the Iowa model never held absolute sway anyway. Also, with the popularity of low-residency programs, the world of poetry instruction has been further fragmented, even within an already highly fragmented academy. Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over the US are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different types. Some are institutionalized only insofar as they occur at places like public libraries or community centers. Others happen in people's kitchens. Some spin off from open mic nights. Many poets these days seem to hang out their shingle and give private instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types or other groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after graduate school. Some are pretty hard-core. When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 13:11:20 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:11:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1AEDC609E39B43F787D46D2BA211D97E@RobinLaptopPC> << When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. >> This is very close to my own experience, and if I can select out from what David says, I'd note, "without any official endorsement or leader, much less course credit," as crucial, and "and discuss poetry in *a fairly rigorous fashion*," as a second element. Roger is quite right to point out that the Group concept isn't limited to universities -- far from it -- but in a university context, it is usually supplemented by a variety of things -- official taught courses formally part of the university curriculum and existing quite independently of the group itself, locally published and organised magazines, almost always an official or semi-official literary society (usually in my experience student controlled with a faculty member providing cover) which invites "established" writers to address the membership. The whole ball of wax. Robin ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sun Feb 28 13:12:49 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:12:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <36F5C051-C890-412F-A553-41E59CD7BA64@ripon.edu> <8CC85E8072C465F-1F08-4E45@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <8CC85F218B32BEC-1F08-5BC4@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <36cb1de81002280720t76db6f9cu3e0279fa2b02f567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de81002281012o62aac8ffs26b083c9baf5bd9a@mail.gmail.com> thanks. c On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> can you describe the group system a bit? > > I'm in the process of a ?longer response to Anny's post, but I'll pause to > elaborate on this slightly. > > In some ways, the Group System was simply a formalization of what had always > happened (and presumably still does happen) among poets -- what springs to > mind is Keats' involvement with Leigh Hunt and other writers in London in > the early nineteenth century, but it could be carried back to at least > Sidney and Greville (and friends) in the late sixteenth century. ?It seems, > at least in England, to be the "natural" (if there is such a thing) way for > poets to train themselves and develop, insofar as they ever do get together, > and not quite the same as the atelier system which lies behind courses in > the plastic arts. > > Where it became formalized (and gained a specific name) was in Cambridge in > the late fifties, Belfast in the early sixties, and Glasgow in the middle to > late sixties onward, in each case focused around a poet called Philip > Hobsbaum. ?(The original Cambridge Group -- containing among others Ted > Hughes, Peter Redgrove, Peter Porter and David Wevill -- was organized > jointly by Hobsbaum and Edward Lucie Smith. ?This collection of poets > eventually produced an anthology called, appropriately enough, _A Group > Anthology_. ?Lucie Smith went on to found the London Group, at the same time > that Hobsbaum migrated to Belfast and founded the Belfast Group, with Seamus > Heaney, Michael Longley, Derek Mahon, Paul Muldoon, etc.) > > The model was simple -- the criterion for membership was to be a practicing, > not necessarily published, writer. ?Work by a member was copied ahead of > time and circulated before a meeting where it was discussed and commented on > by the members of the group who would be at that session. ?There would > usually be at least a two-thirds attendance at any time. ?Another criterion > was that every member had to regularly contribute as well as take part in > the discussion. ?Usually there was a filter system -- what constitutes a > practicing writer? after all -- and at an extreme this could be formalized > by the ability to specifically exclude new candidates. ?It never came to > this, in my experience, groups being pretty much self-regulating and > self-chosen. > > This spawned (and was probably proceeded and accompanied by) writers groups, > or workshops, affiliated to such things as local literary societies, etc., > working on roughly the same model. > > Where this differed from the MFA model was that there was never any setting > of themes, etc., no single person had any special authority, though someone > usually had to take charge of organizing place and time, distributing > material, etc.), no teaching as such took place (though all the groups I was > involved with were located in universities, and most of the members would be > pursuing an English degree). ?As a result, while there was never any formal > scholarly or academic component to the group as such, the Group situation in > a university could be seen as effectively pretty closely comparable to > covering the range of ground encompassed, as far as I understand it, in an > MFA course. > > Except that it wasn't limited to graduate students who had been interviewed > and offered a place on the course, and led to no *formal qualification. ?And > while it might take place in a university setting, and have participants to > an extent drawn from university staff and (mostly) students, it was in no > way affiliated to the university, supported (financially or otherwise) or > endorsed by the university, or essentially, *formally linked to it in any > way. ?Also, while there might effectively be an organizer, there was no one > with the special status as "teacher". ?Just all writers together. ?(In my > personal experience, groups usually took in roughly a fifteen year age span > -- after that, status, achievement, reputation, and extra-creative things > came into play, which led to a different ball game.) ?Open ended, relatively > unstructured, with a partly fluctuating membership might be other > characteristics which defined the Group. > > Basically, a peer group model of poetic training in contrast to a teaching > model, and one over which the academic institution had no leverage > whatsoever. > > I'll leave it at that for the moment, and maybe recap or expand a bit if I > come back to it in my response to Anny. > > Robin > >>> The Group System way predates the Workshop (in teaching terms) System, >>> and >>> the two are antithetical. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 13:21:04 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:21:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> In all the cities I've lived in there were groups (or circles, tables, meetings) like the ones David mentions. I've formed groups in a few cities. Each group has its own protocols and degree of rigor. And I find as the poets come & go, the group's 'weather' changes too. But one thing that perhaps makes these peer-to-peer groups similar to the students-&-teacher workshop model is that often there will be one or two (sometime three) out the entire group with whom one feels a particular affinity. And it becomes natural to value the opinion of these 'de facto leaders' more than the remarks others might make about one's poem. So in that way each member of a group in a way chooses his/her own leader. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over the US are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different types. Some are institutionalized only insofar as they occur at places like public libraries or community centers. Others happen in people's kitchens. Some spin off from open mic nights. Many poets these days seem to hang out their shingle and give private instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types or other groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after graduate school. Some are pretty hard-core. When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 13:33:23 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:33:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <648208b61002281033x7ca073ceg558dc956c6b58cb8@mail.gmail.com> I think "the Iowa model" depends on when and who - "who" meaning students and teachers. When I was there, a workshop run by Don Justice was a different animal than one run by Marvin Bell, or Mark Strand. - Jim On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:59 AM, David Graham wrote: > While I think some version of the Iowa workshop model still probably holds > sway at most MFA programs and many undergraduate writing programs in the US, > there are increasingly people within academe who are experimenting with > other modes of teaching poetry writing. Anyone who's attended the AWP > Pedagogy Panels over the past decade, for instance, will know how highly > contested such matters are, and evolving. Increasingly so, as far as I can > discern. See Tom C. Hunley's book, *Teaching Poetry Writing: A Five-Canon > Approach* (2007) for a discussion of the issue as well as one spirited > alternative to the Iowa model. > > And my impression is that, at schools without MFA programs, the Iowa model > never held absolute sway anyway. Also, with the popularity of low-residency > programs, the world of poetry instruction has been further fragmented, even > within an already highly fragmented academy. > > Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over the US > are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different types. Some are > institutionalized only insofar as they occur at places like public libraries > or community centers. Others happen in people's kitchens. Some spin off > from open mic nights. Many poets these days seem to hang out their shingle > and give private instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types > or other groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems > informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after graduate > school. Some are pretty hard-core. > > When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday > Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my > college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course > credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced > writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 13:36:25 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:36:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Isn't that very different, Jim, than authority and the certification of expertise imposed from above? At 01:21 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >In all the cities I've lived in there were groups (or circles, >tables, meetings) like the ones David mentions. I've formed groups >in a few cities. Each group has its own protocols and degree of >rigor. And I find as the poets come & go, the group's 'weather' changes too. > >But one thing that perhaps makes these peer-to-peer groups similar >to the students-&-teacher workshop model is that often there will be >one or two (sometime three) out the entire group with whom one feels >a particular affinity. And it becomes natural to value the opinion >of these 'de facto leaders' more than the remarks others might make >about one's poem. So in that way each member of a group in a way >chooses his/her own leader. >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu > >Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over >the US are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different >types. Some are institutionalized only insofar as they occur at >places like public libraries or community centers. Others happen in >people's kitchens. Some spin off from open mic nights. Many poets >these days seem to hang out their shingle and give private >instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types or other >groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems >informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after >graduate school. Some are pretty hard-core. > >When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called >Thursday Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus >of my college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less >course credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more >experienced writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. > > > > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >= > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 13:47:42 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:47:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> Mark has a point and that explains the I/ mf/A burned into my right flank. - this Jim On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Isn't that very different, Jim, than authority and the certification of > expertise imposed from above? > > > At 01:21 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > In all the cities I've lived in there were groups (or circles, tables, > meetings) like the ones David mentions. I've formed groups in a few cities. > Each group has its own protocols and degree of rigor. And I find as the > poets come & go, the group's 'weather' changes too. > > But one thing that perhaps makes these peer-to-peer groups similar to the > students-&-teacher workshop model is that often there will be one or two > (sometime three) out the entire group with whom one feels a particular > affinity. And it becomes natural to value the opinion of these 'de facto > leaders' more than the remarks others might make about one's poem. So in > that way each member of a group in a way chooses his/her own leader. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu > > Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over the US > are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different types. Some are > institutionalized only insofar as they occur at places like public libraries > or community centers. Others happen in people's kitchens. Some spin off > from open mic nights. Many poets these days seem to hang out their shingle > and give private instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types > or other groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems > informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after graduate > school. Some are pretty hard-core. > > When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday > Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my > college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course > credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced > writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 13:54:08 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:54:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might act as an institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just opened 3-4 pages from the following link http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry to type down these names: Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue to fill in several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of institutionalized workers, rather people who try to understand and find what kind of poetry the student is trying to bring forth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 13:54:40 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com > References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How do you explain that thing on your right flank? (or should we go b/c for that?) At 01:47 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >Mark has a point and that explains the > > I/ > mf/A > >burned into my right flank. > >- this Jim > >On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Isn't that very different, Jim, than authority and the certification >of expertise imposed from above? > > >At 01:21 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >>In all the cities I've lived in there were groups (or circles, >>tables, meetings) like the ones David mentions. I've formed groups >>in a few cities. Each group has its own protocols and degree of >>rigor. And I find as the poets come & go, the group's 'weather' changes too. >> >>But one thing that perhaps makes these peer-to-peer groups similar >>to the students-&-teacher workshop model is that often there will >>be one or two (sometime three) out the entire group with whom one >>feels a particular affinity. And it becomes natural to value the >>opinion of these 'de facto leaders' more than the remarks others >>might make about one's poem. So in that way each member of a group >>in a way chooses his/her own leader. >>Finnegan >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu >> >>Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over >>the US are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different >>types. Some are institutionalized only insofar as they occur at >>places like public libraries or community centers. Others happen >>in people's kitchens. Some spin off from open mic nights. Many >>poets these days seem to hang out their shingle and give private >>instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types or other >>groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems >>informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after >>graduate school. Some are pretty hard-core. >> >>When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called >>Thursday Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus >>of my college--without any official endorsement or leader, much >>less course credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders >>with more experienced writers and discuss poetry in a fairly >>rigorous fashion. >> >> >> >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd at ripon.edu >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >> >> >>= >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Feb 28 13:54:51 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:54:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute In-Reply-To: <1846D2CDFAD3404DA40E9A6C7E0577E2@ROCKY> References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com> <1846D2CDFAD3404DA40E9A6C7E0577E2@ROCKY> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002281054w30df0bedp185c0f9b8044ea66@mail.gmail.com> Have you participated? If so, did you find it helpful or valuable to you? Judy On 28 February 2010 12:20, Roger Collett wrote: > Groups as described still exist. > There is a group in Cumbria that meets monthly at the organiser's house. > Members are not academics and not necessarily published. > At each meeting, printed copies of poems (one per member) are put up for > discussion. > The group member reads his/her poem and is then not allowed to speak until > each and every other member has made their comments on the poem. The reading > order is decided by seating arrangement and starts at a randomly selected > seat (decided by spinning an arrow in the centre of the floor) and then > proceeds in a clockwise direction. > This is a very effective way to assess ones work on a peer-to-peer basis. > > Roger Collett > Arrowhead Press > http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." > Jules de Gaultier > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk Sun Feb 28 14:03:12 2010 From: editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk (Roger Collett) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:03:12 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute References: <74302.30b080bc.38bbf0c8@aol.com><1846D2CDFAD3404DA40E9A6C7E0577E2@ROCKY> <7db1d01b1002281054w30df0bedp185c0f9b8044ea66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <70074B96BD4B4153896102F623AE4BAE@ROCKY> Yes I have Judy, and found it very helpful. A lot of the most helpful crits came from unpublished poets. The group was bounded geographically, I.E. those who lived close enough to travel to meetings. Boundaries (for those who have suitable maps) seemed to be Carlisle, Kendal, Whitehaven and Brough. An hours drive for some on some of the worst roads in the country. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Prince To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The new math of poetry does not compute Have you participated? If so, did you find it helpful or valuable to you? Judy On 28 February 2010 12:20, Roger Collett wrote: Groups as described still exist. There is a group in Cumbria that meets monthly at the organiser's house. Members are not academics and not necessarily published. At each meeting, printed copies of poems (one per member) are put up for discussion. The group member reads his/her poem and is then not allowed to speak until each and every other member has made their comments on the poem. The reading order is decided by seating arrangement and starts at a randomly selected seat (decided by spinning an arrow in the centre of the floor) and then proceeds in a clockwise direction. This is a very effective way to assess ones work on a peer-to-peer basis. Roger Collett Arrowhead Press http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." Jules de Gaultier _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 14:03:35 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:03:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com > References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of many things that have made my life richer by institutions that are not so great for the polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them with an open mind. The enormous proliferation of institutions certifying artists is a new thing in world history. To many of us it seems to portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. I'm fully aware that even if there were full agreement that MFA programs are a menace and produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the winning side that others think it's worth talking about? Best, Mark At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might act >as an institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just opened 3-4 >pages from the following link >http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry > >to type down these names: >Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, >Steve Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, >Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven >Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn >Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, >Susan Schultz, > >if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue to >fill in several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of >institutionalized workers, rather people who try to understand and >find what kind of poetry the student is trying to bring forth. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 14:33:20 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:33:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> My answer to Mark Weiss: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the > MFA. > > Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of many things that have made my > life richer by institutions that are not so great for the polity. Doesn't > stop me from discussing them with an open mind. The enormous proliferation > of institutions certifying artists is a new thing in world history. To many > of us it seems to portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's > already produced them. > > I'm fully aware that even if there were full agreement that MFA programs > are a menace and produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. > Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the winning side that others > think it's worth talking about? > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might act as an > institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just opened 3-4 pages from the > following link > http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry > > to type down these names: > Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve > Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, Alvin Greenberg, > Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, > Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, > Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, > > if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue to fill in > several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of institutionalized > workers, rather people who try to understand and find what kind of poetry > the student is trying to bring forth. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 14:45:21 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:45:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com > References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A good one! At 02:33 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >My answer to Mark Weiss: >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > > >On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. > >Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of >many things that have made my life richer by >institutions that are not so great for the >polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them >with an open mind. The enormous proliferation of >institutions certifying artists is a new thing >in world history. To many of us it seems to >portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. > >I'm fully aware that even if there were full >agreement that MFA programs are a menace and >produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. >Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the >winning side that others think it's worth talking about? > >Best, > >Mark > > >At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >>About the fears that MFA's have been >>institutionalized, or might act as an >>institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I >>just opened 3-4 pages from the following link >>http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry >> >> >>to type down these names: >>Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette >>Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet >>Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, >>Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, >>C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, >>Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, >>Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, >> >>if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow >>I would continue to fill in several pages. >>These people seem to me the opposite of >>institutionalized workers, rather people who >>try to understand and find what kind of poetry >>the student is trying to bring forth. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 15:09:05 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:09:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71002281209w7f88a59w34ca51420e0c8e13@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, :-) On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > A good one! > > > At 02:33 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > My answer to Mark Weiss: > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 16:34:18 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:34:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b61002281334j4e0b84dem1e4e440def8b2723@mail.gmail.com> Why, that's the brand of approval, like a USDA stamp on a side of beef. Mine is the IA(Iowa) mfa. - Jim On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > How do you explain that thing on your right flank? (or should we go b/c > for that?) > > At 01:47 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > Mark has a point and that explains the > > I/ > mf/A > > burned into my right flank. > > - this Jim > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > Isn't that very different, Jim, than authority and the certification of > expertise imposed from above? > > > At 01:21 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > In all the cities I've lived in there were groups (or circles, tables, > meetings) like the ones David mentions. I've formed groups in a few cities. > Each group has its own protocols and degree of rigor. And I find as the > poets come & go, the group's 'weather' changes too. > > But one thing that perhaps makes these peer-to-peer groups similar to the > students-&-teacher workshop model is that often there will be one or two > (sometime three) out the entire group with whom one feels a particular > affinity. And it becomes natural to value the opinion of these 'de facto > leaders' more than the remarks others might make about one's poem. So in > that way each member of a group in a way chooses his/her own leader. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu > > Another thing worth injecting into this discussion is that all over the US > are informal, non-academic writing groups of many different types. Some are > institutionalized only insofar as they occur at places like public libraries > or community centers. Others happen in people's kitchens. Some spin off > from open mic nights. Many poets these days seem to hang out their shingle > and give private instruction to paying customers. Sometimes post-MFA types > or other groups of friends simply gather over meals or coffee & swap poems > informally--I was in such a group for 5 years in Virginia after graduate > school. Some are pretty hard-core. > > When I was in college I learned a great deal from a group called Thursday > Poets which had been meeting for many years on the campus of my > college--without any official endorsement or leader, much less course > credit. But beginners like me got to rub shoulders with more experienced > writers and discuss poetry in a fairly rigorous fashion. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 18:48:02 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:48:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> One thing I hope is not the case is that the MFA becomes some kind necessary sanction or a barrier to entry that all writers have to hurdle in order to teach or to lecture, have to possess in order to be taken seriously. I think that would be a loss to the institutions and to their students. Several years ago, could be ten now, I remember there was a teaching position open at Naropa... http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/writingpoetics/mfa/index.cfm And I remember the job opening annoucement said something "MFA in Creative Writing required." I thought at that moment all the dead Beats must be rolling in their graves. Finnegan. -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place My answer to Mark Weiss: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of many things that have made my life richer by institutions that are not so great for the polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them with an open mind. The enormous proliferation of institutions certifying artists is a new thing in world history. To many of us it seems to portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. I'm fully aware that even if there were full agreement that MFA programs are a menace and produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the winning side that others think it's worth talking about? Best, Mark At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might act as an institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just opened 3-4 pages from the following link http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry to type down these names: Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue to fill in several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of institutionalized workers, rather people who try to understand and find what kind of poetry the student is trying to bring forth. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 19:03:05 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:03:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Frost poem Message-ID: <8CC86E9B3B94560-47DC-1F2FB@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Apiary viii (For the ones who line the corridors and sit silent in wheelchairs before the television with the volume off, whose cares are small and gray and infinite, time as ever to be faced????... Methuselahs the nurses wash and dress without haste?? none needed????... this one has drunk from the poppy-cup and drowses in her world of ?dream????... Heliotrope, carnations, wakeful violets, and lilies in vases?? masses of ?flowers???wrap the urine-and-antiseptic air in lace????... Please wake up; it is morning; robins whistle; the bees dance. Isn't this other one listening from her shell of ?silence, and shouldn't she smile at the green return and dappled light through windows? As earth orbits the corridor clocks are wound????... The last hour is a song or wound????... Except in this corridor???mother's?? where finity's brainless wind blows ash, and ash again blows through their cells: So much silence, so little to say in the end.) by Carol Frost http://www.lewisturco.typepad.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 20:02:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:02:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Baring foreign birth or extreme fame/notoriety, it's exactly that, except for a few exceedingly poorly paid, temporary adjunct work. I've done some of it for fun. But I had the advantage of age and a degree of reputation. Even so, the last time was 13 years ago. Probably not so easy even for that. Editorial jobs at financially solvent presses and periodicals also expect MFAs. Not universally, but it's a big extra hurdle if one doesn't have one. Best, Mark At 06:48 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >One thing I hope is not the case is that the MFA >becomes some kind necessary sanction or a >barrier to entry that all writers have to hurdle >in order to teach or to lecture, have to possess >in order to be taken seriously. I think that >would be a loss to the institutions and to their students. > >Several years ago, could be ten now, I remember >there was a teaching position open at Naropa... >http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/writingpoetics/mfa/index.cfm >And I remember the job opening annoucement said >something "MFA in Creative Writing required." >I thought at that moment all the dead Beats must be rolling in their graves. >Finnegan. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&,Views >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:33 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >My answer to Mark Weiss: >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > > >On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. > >Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of >many things that have made my life richer by >institutions that are not so great for the >polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them >with an open mind. The enormous proliferation of >institutions certifying artists is a new thing >in world history. To many of us it seems to >portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. > >I'm fully aware that even if there were full >agreement that MFA programs are a menace and >produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. >Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the >winning side that others think it's worth talking about? > >Best, > >Mark > > >At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >>About the fears that MFA's have been >>institutionalized, or might act as an >>institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I >>just opened 3-4 pages from the following link >>http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry >> >> >>to type down these names: >>Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette >>Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet >>Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, >>Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, >>C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, >>Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, >>Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, >> >>if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow >>I would continue to fill in several pages. >>These people seem to me the opposite of >>institutionalized workers, rather people who >>try to understand and find what kind of poetry >>the student is trying to bring forth. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 20:13:56 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:13:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It is increasingly rare, as non-MFAs / non-PhDs like Toby Olson, Bernstein, and Howe -- and art school faculty in general, too -- are replaced by MFAs or PhDs when they shift jobs, retire, or scale back teaching schedules. The exceptions I can think of are Kenneth Goldsmith and Caroline Bergvall. On the MFA side, it is a celebrity system: who is well known enough to draw students. So you see low res MFA programs with faculty with full time jobs elsewhere. Also, a number of people have been "degreeing up" (especially in low res programs, where they aren't very visible on a campus) after several books, in order to be able to get a job that now requires a degree. Hey, I tried it, but I didn't get into UCLA, and had no interest in low res or Claremont for a PhD or spending hours on the highway. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 20:36:48 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:36:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Caroline--foreign birth. It helps. Partly because we're still wowed by accents, [partly because there are so few people with writing degrees in the rest of the world. At 08:13 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >It is increasingly rare, as non-MFAs / non-PhDs like Toby Olson, >Bernstein, and Howe -- and art school faculty in general, too -- are >replaced by MFAs or PhDs when they shift jobs, retire, or scale back >teaching schedules. The exceptions I can think of are Kenneth >Goldsmith and Caroline Bergvall. > >On the MFA side, it is a celebrity system: who is well known enough >to draw students. So you see low res MFA programs with faculty with >full time jobs elsewhere. > >Also, a number of people have been "degreeing up" (especially in low >res programs, where they aren't very visible on a campus) after >several books, in order to be able to get a job that now requires a >degree. Hey, I tried it, but I didn't get into UCLA, and had no >interest in low res or Claremont for a PhD or spending hours on the >highway. > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 20:37:55 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:37:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'The Secret Life of Emily Dickinson' Message-ID: <8CC86F6F32C2EFD-47DC-207B1@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/26/entertainment/la-et-book26-2010feb26 'The Secret Life of Emily Dickinson' by Jerome Charyn Imagining the inner world and yearnings of the belle of Amherst. February 26, 2010|By Paula L. Woods Whether they're true or not, myths and legends that surround poets help us to see their work in a comprehensible context. Say the names Keats, Poe or Plath, for instance, and images of consumption, drug addiction and mental illness may come to mind, just as the image of 19th century poet Emily Dickinson as an eccentric recluse has persisted largely based on her poetry and a few scraps of biographical information. Slim pickings for a biographical novel, yet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 20:38:49 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:38:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0BFCF82CF9B54AFB9C4573D0E65F0CF1@RobinLaptopPC> It's not quite like that here in the UK (yet), Mark. I'd guess the closest to the equivalent of the MFA here, an MA in Creative Writing, all those courses are taught by writers who made their name outside the MA in CW system. There hasn't been time for the graduates to get jobs, there isn't (yet) the career structure, and there's still an overplus of extremely hungry and extremely talented and successful writers prepared to teach them. By a curious species of coincidence, I'm reminded, when about ten years ago or so Glasgow University formally established an MA in Creative Writing, it was taught by what was considered the dream team (and from the bureaucrats' point of view, three for the price of one) of a professorial troika composed of Tom Leonard, Jim Kelman, and Alastair Gray -- all former members of the 60s/70s Glasgow Group, but all three actually appointed for their eminence as writers.. Odd that, but. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Baring foreign birth or extreme fame/notoriety, it's exactly that, except for a few exceedingly poorly paid, temporary adjunct work. I've done some of it for fun. But I had the advantage of age and a degree of reputation. Even so, the last time was 13 years ago. Probably not so easy even for that. Editorial jobs at financially solvent presses and periodicals also expect MFAs. Not universally, but it's a big extra hurdle if one doesn't have one. Best, Mark At 06:48 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: One thing I hope is not the case is that the MFA becomes some kind necessary sanction or a barrier to entry that all writers have to hurdle in order to teach or to lecture, have to possess in order to be taken seriously. I think that would be a loss to the institutions and to their students. Several years ago, could be ten now, I remember there was a teaching position open at Naropa... http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/writingpoetics/mfa/index.cfm And I remember the job opening annoucement said something "MFA in Creative Writing required." I thought at that moment all the dead Beats must be rolling in their graves. Finnegan. -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place My answer to Mark Weiss: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of many things that have made my life richer by institutions that are not so great for the polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them with an open mind. The enormous proliferation of institutions certifying artists is a new thing in world history. To many of us it seems to portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. I'm fully aware that even if there were full agreement that MFA programs are a menace and produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the winning side that others think it's worth talking about? Best, Mark At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might act as an institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just opened 3-4 pages from the following link http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry to type down these names: Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue to fill in several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of institutionalized workers, rather people who try to understand and find what kind of poetry the student is trying to bring forth. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 20:51:39 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:51:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 20:53:19 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:53:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <0BFCF82CF9B54AFB9C4573D0E65F0CF1@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <0BFCF82CF9B54AFB9C4573D0E65F0CF1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Ah, the good old days. It began exactly thus in the US. And who can blame a bunch of impoverished eminences from crowding to the trough to feed their families. At 08:38 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >It's not quite like that here in the UK (yet), >Mark. I'd guess the closest to the equivalent >of the MFA here, an MA in Creative Writing, all >those courses are taught by writers who made >their name outside the MA in CW system. There >hasn't been time for the graduates to get jobs, >there isn't (yet) the career structure, and >there's still an overplus of extremely hungry >and extremely talented and successful writers prepared to teach them. > >By a curious species of coincidence, I'm >reminded, when about ten years ago or so Glasgow >University formally established an MA in >Creative Writing, it was taught by what was >considered the dream team (and from the >bureaucrats' point of view, three for the price >of one) of a professorial troika composed of Tom >Leonard, Jim Kelman, and Alastair Gray -- all >former members of the 60s/70s Glasgow Group, but >all three actually appointed for their eminence as writers.. > >Odd that, but. > >Robin >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: >NewPoetry: >Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:02 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Baring foreign birth or extreme fame/notoriety, >it's exactly that, except for a few exceedingly >poorly paid, temporary adjunct work. I've done >some of it for fun. But I had the advantage of >age and a degree of reputation. Even so, the >last time was 13 years ago. Probably not so easy even for that. > >Editorial jobs at financially solvent presses >and periodicals also expect MFAs. Not >universally, but it's a big extra hurdle if one doesn't have one. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 06:48 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >>One thing I hope is not the case is that the >>MFA becomes some kind necessary sanction or a >>barrier to entry that all writers have to >>hurdle in order to teach or to lecture, have to >>possess in order to be taken seriously. I think >>that would be a loss to the institutions and to their students. >> >>Several years ago, could be ten now, I remember >>there was a teaching position open at Naropa... >>http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/writingpoetics/mfa/index.cfm >> >>And I remember the job opening annoucement said >>something "MFA in Creative Writing required." >>I thought at that moment all the dead Beats must be rolling in their graves. >>Finnegan. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Anny Ballardini >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>&,Views >>Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:33 pm >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >>My answer to Mark Weiss: >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >>On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss >><junction at earthlink.net > wrote: >>And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without the MFA. >>Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of >>many things that have made my life richer by >>institutions that are not so great for the >>polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them >>with an open mind. The enormous proliferation >>of institutions certifying artists is a new >>thing in world history. To many of us it seems >>to portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already produced them. >> >>I'm fully aware that even if there were full >>agreement that MFA programs are a menace and >>produce hemmorhagic fever they're here to stay. >>Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from >>the winning side that others think it's worth talking about? >>Best, >>Mark >> >>At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >> >>>About the fears that MFA's have been >>>institutionalized, or might act as an >>>institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I >>>just opened 3-4 pages from the following link >>>http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry >>> >>>to type down these names: >>>Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette >>>Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, Steve Heller, Janet >>>Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, >>>Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith >>>Waldrop, C.D. Wright, Steven Church, Yusef >>>Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, >>>Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, >>>Susan Sontag, Bill Lavender, Susan Schultz, >>>if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow >>>I would continue to fill in several pages. >>>These people seem to me the opposite of >>>institutionalized workers, rather people who >>>try to understand and find what kind of poetry >>>the student is trying to bring forth. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to >>give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? >>Giovenale >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 20:54:05 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:54:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 28 21:02:52 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:02:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Feb 28 21:23:17 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:23:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8B2515.9040105@opus40.org> It happened to me. I was rejected for a job at a college whose creative writing program I had built, as an adjunct. A full time line was created and I wasn't even permitted to apply for it -- no MFA. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > One thing I hope is not the case is that the MFA becomes some kind > necessary sanction or a barrier to entry that all writers have to > hurdle in order to teach or to lecture, have to possess in order to be > taken seriously. I think that would be a loss to the institutions and > to their students. > > Several years ago, could be ten now, I remember there was a teaching > position open at Naropa... > http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/writingpoetics/mfa/index.cfm > And I remember the job opening annoucement said something "MFA in > Creative Writing required." > I thought at that moment all the dead Beats must be rolling in their > graves. > Finnegan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > > Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:33 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > My answer to Mark Weiss: > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > And of those forty or younger few would have teaching jobs without > the MFA. > > Like most of us, I've been the beneficiary of many things that > have made my life richer by institutions that are not so great for > the polity. Doesn't stop me from discussing them with an open > mind. The enormous proliferation of institutions certifying > artists is a new thing in world history. To many of us it seems to > portend not so pleasant outcomes, to some of us it's already > produced them. > > I'm fully aware that even if there were full agreement that MFA > programs are a menace and produce hemmorhagic fever they're here > to stay. Bureaucracies are immortal. Why protest from the winning > side that others think it's worth talking about? > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 01:54 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >> About the fears that MFA's have been institutionalized, or might >> act as an institutionalizing grip on potential poets, I just >> opened 3-4 pages from the following link >> http://guide.awpwriter.org/search_result.php?GradDegrOffer=MFA+in+Creative+Writing&Inst=&state=All&ProgramType=All&concentration[]=Poetry >> >> >> >> to type down these names: >> Cate Gale, Eloise Klein Healy, Bernadette Murphy, Dodie Bellamy, >> Steve Heller, Janet Holmes, Stephanie Strickland, Rebecca Wolff, >> Alvin Greenberg, Forrest Gander, Keith Waldrop, C.D. Wright, >> Steven Church, Yusef Komunyakaa, Alex Espinoza, Amiri Baraka, >> Marilyn Hacker, Charles Wright, Philip Levine, Susan Sontag, Bill >> Lavender, Susan Schultz, >> >> if I didn't have still tons to do for tomorrow I would continue >> to fill in several pages. These people seem to me the opposite of >> institutionalized workers, rather people who try to understand >> and find what kind of poetry the student is trying to bring forth. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* > (University of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House > Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology > so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the > United States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John > Palattella in /The Nation/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 28 21:31:28 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:31:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <04427D28C4154016B3A0AC9A1CB915F1@RobinLaptopPC> << Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan >> Not much in the UK, though non-creative writing MAs are useful to highschool teachers -- they get time off to take the course, they enjoy the courses (and are great to teach), and it usually means they get a bit more money and better promotion prospects after they graduate. Beyond that, forget it (other than a short prerequisite for doing a PhD). Though for those who like them, and I can think of one close friend who really felt she benefitted from it, it's worth doing simply for itself. Robin From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 28 21:33:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:33:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but >not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed >MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a >terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >>Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >>Finnegan >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Feb 28 22:27:19 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:27:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska In-Reply-To: <8CC86AED118574A-47DC-1A2DC@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC86AED118574A-47DC-1A2DC@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1002281927v5d5e9f79t5014c2e2ab171f32@mail.gmail.com> James, this is wonderful---but how/where can we see the documentary? Best, Judy On 28 February 2010 12:01, wrote: > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS5gjNs6R-8yD12iTBeBGf4ypUawD9E57P5G0 > New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska > > WARSAW, Poland ? A rare documentary about Nobel Prize winning poet Wislawa > Szymborska portrays a lively yet distinguished woman who savors the world's > contrasts, from 17th-century Dutch painting to boxing. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: