From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  1 03:09:52 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  1 01:18:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The uses of criticism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
References: <980C762F-692B-47A0-A32A-C6C381F0E845@ripon.edu>
	<8CBF8B8BBE8B10F-31F4-4C14@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909010009m6379ef6dha519b848daae1e42@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps it's true about his hurt feelings, David, but the following snippet
of his strikes me as eternally useful for those tempted to take the easy
way, whether Official Critics or not.  On the other hand, it IS marvelous
fun, sometimes, to have at it!
"....(t)he hysterical over-the-top attack is often the product of a pose.
 Every critic knows it's easier (and more fun) to write a ruthless review
rather than a measured one..."

Best, and thanks,

Judy

2009/8/31 David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>

> <snip>
>


> But no doubt David Lehman has received some negative reviews lately, which
> might just possibly have hurt his feelings....
> On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:14 PM, JforJames@aol.com wrote:
>
> I must be too far inland to be aware of the tsunami of spiteful criticism
> washing over our shores.
> I mean Logan crashes in as a rogue wave now and again. But where is this
> tide of bile Lehman sees?
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
>
>  From David Lehman's introduction to the latest *Best American Poetry*:
>
> <snip>
> *"the hysterical over-the-top attack is often the product of a pose. Every
> critic knows it's easier (and more fun) to write a ruthless review rather
> than a measured one . . ."*
> *http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/*
> *
> *
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 08:01:27 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 06:10:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The uses of criticism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
References: <980C762F-692B-47A0-A32A-C6C381F0E845@ripon.edu>
	<8CBF8B8BBE8B10F-31F4-4C14@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909010501g4d41b550n97967eb2ece96309@mail.gmail.com>

Very probably he is referring to the online incivility and the new pseudo
intellectual yuppies.

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:33 AM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:

> Fair point.  I was thinking of Kleinzahler, myself.  Beyond that, much of
> the tide, if there is one, is certainly online, I'd say.
> But no doubt David Lehman has received some negative reviews lately, which
> might just possibly have hurt his feelings....
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:14 PM, JforJames@aol.com wrote:
>
> I must be too far inland to be aware of the tsunami of spiteful criticism
> washing over our shores.
> I mean Logan crashes in as a rogue wave now and again. But where is this
> tide of bile Lehman sees?
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
> To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu &amp; Views <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:51 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The uses of criticism, etc.
>
>  From David Lehman's introduction to the latest *Best American Poetry*:
>
>  *"Poetry criticism at its worst today is mean in spirit and spiteful in
> intent, as if determined to inflict the wound that will spur the artist to
> new heights if it does not cripple him or her. Somewhere along the line, the
> notion took hold that poets were reluctant to write honestly about their
> peers. But in the absence of critics who are not themselves poets, surely
> the antidote is not to encourage the habit of rejection without explanation,
> denunciation without reasoned argument, and a slam of the gavel in high
> dudgeon as if a poem were a felony. Hostile criticism, criticism by insult,
> may have entertainment value, but animus does not guarantee honesty. As one
> who knows from firsthand experience what a book reviewer faces when writing
> on deadline, I can tell the real thing when I see it, and the hysterical
> over-the-top attack is often the product of a pose. E! very critic knows
> it's easier (and more fun) to write a ruthless review rather than a measured
> one . . ."*
> *http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/*
> *
> *
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>  =
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 08:28:09 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 06:37:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] ARS POETICA LIBRARY - 2009 EDITION
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908311451v4906ec18uff6e51a682275fae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CBF88147A2E1B5-3B70-343B@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A9C2A2A.4010705@opus40.org>
	<8CBF891606ABC47-3B70-533E@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com>
	<4b65c2d70908311451v4906ec18uff6e51a682275fae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909010528w547a674n7e1af60c28e9acfb@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, in German they call them Esel
but whatever, here are the new links for those who wish to have them:

>
> under New Poetry Mailing list:
>
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=62
>
> you can find ARS POETICA LIBRARY - 2009 EDITION by James Finnegan:
> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126
>
> and James Finnegan's Statement:
> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3130<http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3129>



in a revision of James Finnegan's statement I uploaded a new page and
canceled the old one. That is the only link that changes. Thank you for your
patience,

Anny

>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:33 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Aaack...the work goes on. Though I'm sure a few Poe pieces are collected
>> in some of the books listed.
>> Finnegan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>
>> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:53 pm
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ARS POETICA LIBRARY - 2009 EDITION
>>
>> Edgar Allan Poe -- Essays and Reviews
>>
>> jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > The 'Ars Poetic' Library list has gone over 300 titles,
>> > guidebooks/essays/criticism/etc., from the classics to
>> > contemporary, along with some idiosyncratic selections.
>> > Actually the list is much too heavy on the contemporary. And
>> > adequate descriptions are still lacking. As ever, it's a
>> > work-in-progress, and I'm still asking for suggestions,
>> > especially those books you consider to be glaring omissions from
>> > the latest list.
>> >
>> >
>> > Finnegan
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:31:31 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue Sep  1 08:40:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The uses of criticism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909010501g4d41b550n97967eb2ece96309@mail.gmail.com>
References: <980C762F-692B-47A0-A32A-C6C381F0E845@ripon.edu>
	<8CBF8B8BBE8B10F-31F4-4C14@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
	<4b65c2d70909010501g4d41b550n97967eb2ece96309@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909010731u2596644cvc402efb6a9b82d31@mail.gmail.com>

If one wants to know what he was referring to, why not ask him? He's
got a Facebook page and an email address.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> Very probably he is referring to the online incivility and the new pseudo
> intellectual yuppies.
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:33 AM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>> Fair point.  I was thinking of Kleinzahler, myself.  Beyond that, much of
>> the tide, if there is one, is certainly online, I'd say.
>> But no doubt David Lehman has received some negative reviews lately, which
>> might just possibly have hurt his feelings....
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:14 PM, JforJames@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I must be too far inland to be aware of the tsunami of spiteful criticism
>> washing over our shores.
>> I mean Logan crashes in as a rogue wave now and again. But where is this
>> tide of bile Lehman sees?
>> Finnegan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
>> To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu &amp; Views <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:51 pm
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] The uses of criticism, etc.
>>
>>  From David Lehman's introduction to the latest *Best American Poetry*:
>>
>>  *"Poetry criticism at its worst today is mean in spirit and spiteful in
>> intent, as if determined to inflict the wound that will spur the artist to
>> new heights if it does not cripple him or her. Somewhere along the line, the
>> notion took hold that poets were reluctant to write honestly about their
>> peers. But in the absence of critics who are not themselves poets, surely
>> the antidote is not to encourage the habit of rejection without explanation,
>> denunciation without reasoned argument, and a slam of the gavel in high
>> dudgeon as if a poem were a felony. Hostile criticism, criticism by insult,
>> may have entertainment value, but animus does not guarantee honesty. As one
>> who knows from firsthand experience what a book reviewer faces when writing
>> on deadline, I can tell the real thing when I see it, and the hysterical
>> over-the-top attack is often the product of a pose. E! very critic knows
>> it's easier (and more fun) to write a ruthless review rather than a measured
>> one . . ."*
>> *http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/*
>>  *
>> *
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>
>>  Home Page:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  =
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:43:30 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 08:52:29 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dictionaries
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909010743m5c839b60k7043d360dce62dec@mail.gmail.com>

Spanish, French, German, Latin, English, and much more
Rhyming and so forth
http://www.alcor.com.au/italian_rhyming_dictionary.asp

for those who are interested, this dictionary solved one of my problems, now
let's face all the other problems...
Have a nice day,

Anny

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:45:40 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 08:54:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The uses of criticism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909010731u2596644cvc402efb6a9b82d31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <980C762F-692B-47A0-A32A-C6C381F0E845@ripon.edu>
	<8CBF8B8BBE8B10F-31F4-4C14@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A40E18F-5B7B-48F3-9577-5A806E6E32AF@ripon.edu>
	<4b65c2d70909010501g4d41b550n97967eb2ece96309@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909010731u2596644cvc402efb6a9b82d31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909010745g5bc60f27ref97d69eab5acf5e@mail.gmail.com>

You are right Hal, I reread my post, and I was forcing my thought through
David Graham's expert of David Lehman's introduction,
sigh
how complicated can life be.

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com> wrote:

> If one wants to know what he was referring to, why not ask him? He's
> got a Facebook page and an email address.
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Very probably he is referring to the online incivility and the new pseudo
>> intellectual yuppies.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:33 AM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Fair point.  I was thinking of Kleinzahler, myself.  Beyond that, much of
>>> the tide, if there is one, is certainly online, I'd say.
>>> But no doubt David Lehman has received some negative reviews lately,
>>> which might just possibly have hurt his feelings....
>>> ========================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>>
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>>
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:14 PM, JforJames@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I must be too far inland to be aware of the tsunami of spiteful criticism
>>> washing over our shores.
>>> I mean Logan crashes in as a rogue wave now and again. But where is this
>>> tide of bile Lehman sees?
>>> Finnegan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
>>> To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu &amp; Views <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:51 pm
>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] The uses of criticism, etc.
>>>
>>>  From David Lehman's introduction to the latest *Best American Poetry*:
>>>
>>>  *"Poetry criticism at its worst today is mean in spirit and spiteful in
>>> intent, as if determined to inflict the wound that will spur the artist to
>>> new heights if it does not cripple him or her. Somewhere along the line, the
>>> notion took hold that poets were reluctant to write honestly about their
>>> peers. But in the absence of critics who are not themselves poets, surely
>>> the antidote is not to encourage the habit of rejection without explanation,
>>> denunciation without reasoned argument, and a slam of the gavel in high
>>> dudgeon as if a poem were a felony. Hostile criticism, criticism by insult,
>>> may have entertainment value, but animus does not guarantee honesty. As one
>>> who knows from firsthand experience what a book reviewer faces when writing
>>> on deadline, I can tell the real thing when I see it, and the hysterical
>>> over-the-top attack is often the product of a pose. E! very critic knows
>>> it's easier (and more fun) to write a ruthless review rather than a measured
>>> one . . ."*
>>> *http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/*
>>>  *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>>
>>>  Home Page:
>>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>>
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  =
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 11:42:13 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 09:51:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from the Almanac
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210908311211q63b17206y512491b939db4857@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70908310921k443bfa82m54c529f0dea2b099@mail.gmail.com>
	<C6C165A8.8226%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<f160a1210908311211q63b17206y512491b939db4857@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909010842i7bdd149dv938533e3f2f86fde@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect Keillor knew full well and rose above it to share a poem he
thought worth sharing (which doesn't mean he discovered it himself).
Sad to see that such an action is classed as not being bright, being
shallow, etc. Keillor strikes me as a pretty bright guy even if I
don't need much of what he does.

I've enjoyed a few poems by Klaizahler who comes across to me as equal
parts talent and poseur. "Meat" is OK... definitely not one of my
favorites. I only have access right now to a snippet of a recent
Kleinzahler poem I admired, but here it is anyway:

The adulterated, pearly light and bleak perfume
of benzene and exhaust

make this solitary tree and the last of its bloom
as stirring somehow after another day

at the hospital with Mother and the ashen old ladies
lost to TV reruns flickering overhead

as that shower of peach blossoms Tu Fu watched
fall on the riverbank

from the shadows of the Jade Pavilion
while ghosts and the music

of yellow orioles found the seam of him
and slowly cut along it

c
From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 11:48:04 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 09:57:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to 
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>
	<731bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>

Because, Shelley notwithstanding, poems aren't legislation? We can
live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems. Not quite the same
with laws is it?

c

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>>
>> Wow, I didn't expect equivocation, Bob.
>
> Equivocation? ?I honestly don't know what you mean, Jeff?
>>
>> You go ahead and make up your mind about my opinions. ?Fine by me.
>
> I was just curious about why we should vocally condemn bad laws but not bad
> poems.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 11:49:29 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 09:58:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:24 PM, David Graham<grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>
> As long as we're not irritable, we'll be fine. . . .

Sorry, Bob, but Keats has just put the ball-gag firmly in your mouth...

c
From skip at louisiana.edu  Tue Sep  1 12:05:01 2009
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:14:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from the Almanac
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010842i7bdd149dv938533e3f2f86fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2900EA8BC9A343308F1BBAC2FD1B2AC7@win.louisiana.edu>

Nice. But, boy, would I be working over that last stanza. It seems he wants
a sense of scissors and patterns and small hands: "the seam of him" & "cut
along it" . . . well, it's nicely slow as well which is interesting, and
maybe he was trying to avoid the gesture (and expectation) of a leaping end
"of yellow orioles found the seam of him / and cut him open," but the way he
does so seems overly conscious and the tiredness he avoids is at least not
as flat.

But, yes, the rest of it is certainly worth attention, even moderately
useful.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Lott
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: from the Almanac

I suspect Keillor knew full well and rose above it to share a poem he
thought worth sharing (which doesn't mean he discovered it himself).
Sad to see that such an action is classed as not being bright, being
shallow, etc. Keillor strikes me as a pretty bright guy even if I
don't need much of what he does.

I've enjoyed a few poems by Klaizahler who comes across to me as equal
parts talent and poseur. "Meat" is OK... definitely not one of my
favorites. I only have access right now to a snippet of a recent
Kleinzahler poem I admired, but here it is anyway:

The adulterated, pearly light and bleak perfume
of benzene and exhaust

make this solitary tree and the last of its bloom
as stirring somehow after another day

at the hospital with Mother and the ashen old ladies
lost to TV reruns flickering overhead

as that shower of peach blossoms Tu Fu watched
fall on the riverbank

from the shadows of the Jade Pavilion
while ghosts and the music

of yellow orioles found the seam of him
and slowly cut along it

c
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Sep  1 12:16:10 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:25:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from the Almanac
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010842i7bdd149dv938533e3f2f86fde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70908310921k443bfa82m54c529f0dea2b099@mail.gmail.com>	<C6C165A8.8226%grahamd@ripon.edu>	<f160a1210908311211q63b17206y512491b939db4857@mail.gmail.com>
	<b06d3f670909010842i7bdd149dv938533e3f2f86fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D48CA.6040702@opus40.org>

Chris -- I like this one too.

Chris Lott wrote:
> I suspect Keillor knew full well and rose above it to share a poem he
> thought worth sharing (which doesn't mean he discovered it himself).
> Sad to see that such an action is classed as not being bright, being
> shallow, etc. Keillor strikes me as a pretty bright guy even if I
> don't need much of what he does.
>
> I've enjoyed a few poems by Klaizahler who comes across to me as equal
> parts talent and poseur. "Meat" is OK... definitely not one of my
> favorites. I only have access right now to a snippet of a recent
> Kleinzahler poem I admired, but here it is anyway:
>
> The adulterated, pearly light and bleak perfume
> of benzene and exhaust
>
> make this solitary tree and the last of its bloom
> as stirring somehow after another day
>
> at the hospital with Mother and the ashen old ladies
> lost to TV reruns flickering overhead
>
> as that shower of peach blossoms Tu Fu watched
> fall on the riverbank
>
> from the shadows of the Jade Pavilion
> while ghosts and the music
>
> of yellow orioles found the seam of him
> and slowly cut along it
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Sep  1 12:17:40 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:26:47 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to 
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>	<731bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D4924.7050109@opus40.org>

Or we can die miserably every day for lack of what is found there.

Chris Lott wrote:
> Because, Shelley notwithstanding, poems aren't legislation? We can
> live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems. Not quite the same
> with laws is it?
>
> c
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>   
>> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>>     
>>> Wow, I didn't expect equivocation, Bob.
>>>       
>> Equivocation?  I honestly don't know what you mean, Jeff?
>>     
>>> You go ahead and make up your mind about my opinions.  Fine by me.
>>>       
>> I was just curious about why we should vocally condemn bad laws but not bad
>> poems.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 13:24:17 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:33:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> Because, Shelley notwithstanding, poems aren't legislation?
Ah, and neither is food that tastes lousy, so we should never complain 
about that.

> We can
> live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems.
Some of us require art.  Therefore, it is reasonable for us to prefer 
art we like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and--sure--ignore 
the latter, if we can.  Unfortunately, the latter may have a way of 
blocking access to the former for some of us.  As I've explained in 
vain, but won't bother to keep trying to explain.


>  Not quite the same
> with laws is it?
>
> c
Right, Chris.  But that's how analogies work.  Two things that are 
different in some or many ways but share some feature that makes them 
work together via analogy in an argument. 

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 13:25:08 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:33:58 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:24 PM, David Graham<grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>   
>> As long as we're not irritable, we'll be fine. . . .
>>     
>
> Sorry, Bob, but Keats has just put the ball-gag firmly in your mouth...
>
> c
>   

Sorry, Chris, but I don't know what you're talking about.

--Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>   

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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 12:30:22 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:39:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to 
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909010930x1a1ee7fdy38de83b8829f674e@mail.gmail.com>

Thou dost explain too much in vain.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> Chris Lott wrote:
>
>> Because, Shelley notwithstanding, poems aren't legislation?
>>
> Ah, and neither is food that tastes lousy, so we should never complain
> about that.
>
>  We can
>> live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems.
>>
> Some of us require art.  Therefore, it is reasonable for us to prefer art
> we like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and--sure--ignore the
> latter, if we can.  Unfortunately, the latter may have a way of blocking
> access to the former for some of us.  As I've explained in vain, but won't
> bother to keep trying to explain.
>
>
>   Not quite the same
>> with laws is it?
>>
>> c
>>
> Right, Chris.  But that's how analogies work.  Two things that are
> different in some or many ways but share some feature that makes them work
> together via analogy in an argument.
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From ccooley at overdomain.com  Tue Sep  1 12:40:09 2009
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Tue Sep  1 10:49:06 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
Message-ID: <b94f24db0909010940i1dc87a6ex4f84cb662e3b08c@mail.gmail.com>

'tis the sport!

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:29:40 -0500
> From: Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
>
> What could you possibly mean, Crisman--
> halvarded on my own petard?
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                   --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home--
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Crisman Cooley <ccooley@overdomain.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hal, I believe you have been halvarded!  Never thought I'd see the day.
> > And yes, I believe this coinage will someday make OED.
> >
> > Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:51:53 -0400
> > From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
> > To: halvard@gmail.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;
> >        Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Message-ID: <E1MiCv3-0004r2-O9@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> > I've known a lot of pinheads, and it was always lice not angels.
> >
> > At 02:01 PM 8/31/2009, you wrote:
> > >Anyone still wondering why poets often don't just say
> > >clearly what they "mean"?
> > >
> > >This is almost as much fun as counting angels on a
> > >pinhead.
> > >
> > >Hal
> > >
>
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From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 12:51:27 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 11:00:20 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>

If Keats' dictum is to stretch after reason only when not irritable...
and given that you appear to pretty much always be irritable...

c

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Chris Lott wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:24 PM, David Graham<grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
> As long as we're not irritable, we'll be fine. . . .
>
>
> Sorry, Bob, but Keats has just put the ball-gag firmly in your mouth...
>
> c
>
>
> Sorry, Chris, but I don't know what you're talking about.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 12:57:09 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 11:06:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to 
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909010957s245f4954gcf0766c63badf546@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> Ah, and neither is food that tastes lousy, so we should never complain about
> that.

What's the point, really? I just avoid that food or restaurant or cook
the next time and eat something else. I don't see much point in
complaining unless there's something objectively wrong (sour milk,
etc). If it's just not a meal that is to my taste, though cooked
competently, then I don't see the point in complaining. That seems to
me a more appropriate analogy.

If you go into a Thai restaurant and the food is cooked competently
but you simply don't like Thai food, do you complain? You probably
would, given your actions here, but I would a) avoid the place
altogether and b) if there because I wanted to, say, meet and talk
with some friends despite the food, wouldn't see the point in
complaining about it.

>> We can
>> live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems.
>
> Some of us require art. ?Therefore, it is reasonable for us to prefer art we
> like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and--sure--ignore the
> latter, if we can. ?Unfortunately, the latter may have a way of blocking
> access to the former for some of us. ?As I've explained in vain, but won't
> bother to keep trying to explain.

Requiring art and being dictated to by a particular piece of art are
very different things. You ACT as if a bad Kleinzahler poem should be
complained about like a bad law, though a bad Klainzahler poem CAN be
ignored without any consequence whatsoever while a bad law can be
ignored only at one's peril and risk of punishment. You've yet to
prove that the Kleinzahler poem (or any other) has "blocked" you in
any way at all.

>
> Right, Chris. ?But that's how analogies work. ?Two things that are different
> in some or many ways but share some feature that makes them work together
> via analogy in an argument.

And I am wasting time, I suppose, pointing out that your analogy is so
flawed that is essentially non-functional?

c

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 14:44:58 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 11:53:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> If Keats' dictum is to stretch after reason only when not irritable...
> and given that you appear to pretty much always be irritable...
>
> c
I see.  Well, I'm sometimes not irritable.  In fact, it's possible that 
when I strain after reason, I'm never irritated.  I'm only irritated 
when trying to explain what I've found to people who seem to 
think--sorry, /feel/, that only the unexamined life is worth living.

--Bob
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue Sep  1 13:49:48 2009
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue Sep  1 11:58:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>

The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite kinds  
of music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy for slack  
key guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever recorded an  
album with Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack key was never  
even mentioned!

So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently  
been violated. Isn't that obvious?

Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see what  
an injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!  Blocked, I  
say!





David Graham
Grahamd@Ripon.edu
------------------------
Home page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

On Sep 1, 2009, at 11:25 AM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>  
wrote:

>
>
>>
> Some of us require art.  Therefore, it is reasonable for us to  
> prefer art we like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and-- 
> sure--ignore the latter, if we can.  Unfortunately, the latter may  
> have a way of blocking access to the former for some of us.  As I've  
> explained in vain, but won't bother to keep trying to
>
>>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  1 14:24:16 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  1 12:33:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu><8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com><4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net>
	<01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>


I think that Stevens line...



?? speech is not dirty silence

Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.



is one of those?lines?that sounds intriguing and poetic but the more you think about 'silence being dirty', in almost any way you might?construe that notion,?the line becomes more and more?incomprehensible and thus less attractive. So I'm not certan why that line meant so much to Poirier. 



Here's a much better swath of Stevens as substitute...



It was not important that [the poems] survive.
What mattered was that they should bear
Some lineament or character, 



Some affluence, if only half-perceived,
In the poverty of their words,
Of the planet of which they were part. 


?Wallace Stevens, from ?The Planet On The Table?



Jim F



-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence








On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:


What poem is the dirty silence passage from, by the way, James? ?I don't remember it. ?I suspect the context makes the meaning of the passage, uh, less clear.

--Bob


===============




The Creations of Sound

?

If the poetry of X was music,

So that it came to him of its own,

Without understanding, out of the wall

?

Or in the ceiling, in sounds not chosen,

Or chosen quickly, in a freedom

That was their element, we should 
not know

?

That X is an obstruction, a man

Too exactly himself, and that there are words

Better without an author, without a poet,

?

Or having a separate author, a different poet,

An accretion from ourselves, intelligent

Beyond intelligence, an artificial man

?

A distance, a secondary expositor,

A being of sound, whom one does not approach

Through any exaggeration. From him, we collect.

?

Tell X that speech is not dirty silence

Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.

It is more than an imitation for the ear.

?

He lacks this venerable complication.

His poems are not of the second part of life.

They do not make the visible a little hard

?

To see nor, reverberating, eke out the mind

On peculiar horns, themselves eked out

By the spontaneous particulars of sound.

?

We do not say ourselves like that in poems.

We say ourselves in syllables that rise

>From the floor, rising in speech we do not speak. 

?

--Wallace Stevens

?








========================================

David Graham

grahamd@ripon.edu




Home Page:

http://web.me.com/drjazz




Poetry Library:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================








= 


_______________________________________________
ew-Poetry mailing list
ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinf
o/new-poetry

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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 14:32:07 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  1 12:41:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take it b/c.

Mark

At 02:44 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>Chris Lott wrote:
>>
>>If Keats' dictum is to stretch after reason only when not irritable...
>>and given that you appear to pretty much always be irritable...
>>
>>c
>I see.  Well, I'm sometimes not irritable.  In fact, it's possible 
>that when I strain after reason, I'm never irritated.  I'm only 
>irritated when trying to explain what I've found to people who seem 
>to think--sorry, feel, that only the unexamined life is worth living.
>
>--Bob
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 14:37:48 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 12:46:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take it b/c.

No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.

c
From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 14:39:46 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 12:48:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909011139s490ad5d3v796a15e8189b510f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>?I'm only irritated when trying
> to explain what I've found to people who seem to think--sorry, feel, that
> only the unexamined life is worth living.

Or perhaps who don't think and/or feel (are these mutually exclusive
activities for you?) that your particular kind of examination is the
only kind?

c

From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 14:49:22 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  1 12:59:10 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling each 
other names doesn't mean that it's ok.

Why are you so uniformly combative?


At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? 
> Take it b/c.
>
>No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
>traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>
>c
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 14:51:32 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:00:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu>
	<8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net>
	<01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu>
	<8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>

If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> I think that Stevens line...
>
>    speech is not dirty silence
> Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.
>
> is one of those lines that sounds intriguing and poetic but the more you
> think about 'silence being dirty', in almost any way you might construe that
> notion, the line becomes more and more incomprehensible and thus less
> attractive. So I'm not certan why that line meant so much to Poirier.
>
> Here's a much better swath of Stevens as substitute...
>
> It was not important that [the poems] survive.
> What mattered was that they should bear
> Some lineament or character,
>
> Some affluence, if only half-perceived,
> In the poverty of their words,
> Of the planet of which they were part.
>
> ?Wallace Stevens, from ?The Planet On The Table?
>
> Jim F
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
>
>  *
> *
>  On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> What poem is the dirty silence passage from, by the way, James?  I don't
> remember it.  I suspect the context makes the meaning of the passage, uh,
> less clear.
>
> --Bob
>
> *===============*
> *
> *
> *The Creations of Sound*
>
> If the poetry of X was music,
> So that it came to him of its own,
> Without understanding, out of the wall
> =0 D
>
> Or in the ceiling, in sounds not chosen,
> Or chosen quickly, in a freedom
> That was their element, we should not know
>
> That X is an obstruction, a man
> Too exactly himself, and that there are words
> Better without an author, without a poet,
>
> Or having a separate author, a different poet,
> An accretion from ourselves, intelligent
> Beyond intelligence, an artificial man
>
> A distance, a secondary expositor,
> A being of sound, whom one does not approach
> Through any exaggeration. From him, we collect.
>
> Tell X that speech is not dirty silence
> Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.
> It is more than an imitation for the ear.
>
> He lacks this venerable complication.
> His poems are not of the second part of life.
> They do not make the visible a little hard
>
> To see nor, reverberating, eke out the mind
> On peculiar horns, themselves eked out
> By the spontaneous particulars of sound.
>
> We do not say ourselves like that in poems.
> We say ourselves in syllables that rise
> From the floor, rising in speech we do not speak.
>
> --Wallace Stevens
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>   =
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> <  A href="mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu">New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 14:55:15 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:04:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909011155l746cb995nc6ae00b26b616a0d@mail.gmail.com>

Only philistines wouldn't want a college course on the guitar solos of Jimi
Hendrix. Some people just love to marginalize others, eh David?

And why on earth isn't there not only a conference, but also a JOURNAL
devoted to Stevie Ray Vaughan?  For the love of God, people!

Jeff Newberry

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Graham, David <GrahamD@ripon.edu> wrote:

> The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite kinds of
> music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy for slack key
> guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever recorded an album with
> Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack key was never even mentioned!
>
> So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently been
> violated. Isn't that obvious?
>
> Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see what an
> injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!  Blocked, I say!
>
>
>
>
>
> David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu
> ------------------------
> Home page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> On Sep 1, 2009, at 11:25 AM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Some of us require art.  Therefore, it is reasonable for us to prefer art
> we like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and--sure--ignore the
> latter, if we can.  Unfortunately, the latter may have a way of blocking
> access to the former for some of us.  As I've explained in vain, but won't
> bother to keep trying to
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 14:57:38 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:06:40 2009
Subject: Oops Re: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Chris and list: my apologies. I'm clearly an idiot. This was meant to 
go b/c. I have no intention of starting a flame war on a list that 
seems to teeter in that direction without my help.

Mark

At 02:49 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling each 
>other names doesn't mean that it's ok.
>
>Why are you so uniformly combative?
>
>
>At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? 
>> Take it b/c.
>>
>>No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
>>traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>>
>>c
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 14:59:32 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:08:28 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909011159p705907adi9b73fae9f368e04b@mail.gmail.com>

What name-calling are you talking about? I made a joke about Bob being
ball-gagged by Keats. Please.

Uniform doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

c

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling each other
> names doesn't mean that it's ok.
>
> Why are you so uniformly combative?
>
>
> At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take it
>> > b/c.
>>
>> No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
>> traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>>
>> c
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 15:00:13 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:09:05 2009
Subject: Oops Re: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>

We're all idiots here. Except maybe Hal.

c

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Chris and list: my apologies. I'm clearly an idiot. This was meant to go
> b/c. I have no intention of starting a flame war on a list that seems to
> teeter in that direction without my help.
>
> Mark
>
> At 02:49 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling each other
>> names doesn't mean that it's ok.
>>
>> Why are you so uniformly combative?
>>
>>
>> At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take it
>>> > b/c.
>>>
>>> No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
>>> traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>>>
>>> c
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Sep  1 15:06:30 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:15:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D70B6.3070904@opus40.org>

Do what I do. Don't read the threads that don't interest you.

Chris Lott wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
>   
>> This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take it b/c.
>>     
>
> No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
> traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Sep  1 15:08:15 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:17:20 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu>	<8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>	<4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net>	<01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu>	<8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
	<f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D711F.20501@opus40.org>

Or maybe you'd have to, given that Lynda is totally attractive but often 
incomprehensible.

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
> or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM, <jforjames@aol.com 
> <mailto:jforjames@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>     I think that Stevens line...
>      
>        speech is not dirty silence
>     Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.
>      
>     is one of those lines that sounds intriguing and poetic but the
>     more you think about 'silence being dirty', in almost any way you
>     might construe that notion, the line becomes more and
>     more incomprehensible and thus less attractive. So I'm not certan
>     why that line meant so much to Poirier.
>      
>     Here's a much better swath of Stevens as substitute...
>      
>     It was not important that [the poems] survive.
>     What mattered was that they should bear
>     Some lineament or character,
>      
>     Some affluence, if only half-perceived,
>     In the poverty of their words,
>     Of the planet of which they were part.
>
>     ?Wallace Stevens, from ?The Planet On The Table?
>      
>     Jim F
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd@ripon.edu>>
>     Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28 pm
>     Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
>
>     *
>     *
>     On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>>     What poem is the dirty silence passage from, by the way, James?
>>      I don't remember it.  I suspect the context makes the meaning of
>>     the passage, uh, less clear.
>>
>>     --Bob
>     *===============*
>     *
>     *
>     *The Creations of Sound*
>      
>     If the poetry of X was music,
>     So that it came to him of its own,
>     Without understanding, out of the wall
>     =0 D
>      
>     Or in the ceiling, in sounds not chosen,
>     Or chosen quickly, in a freedom
>     That was their element, we should not know
>      
>     That X is an obstruction, a man
>     Too exactly himself, and that there are words
>     Better without an author, without a poet,
>      
>     Or having a separate author, a different poet,
>     An accretion from ourselves, intelligent
>     Beyond intelligence, an artificial man
>      
>     A distance, a secondary expositor,
>     A being of sound, whom one does not approach
>     Through any exaggeration. From him, we collect.
>      
>     Tell X that speech is not dirty silence
>     Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.
>     It is more than an imitation for the ear.
>      
>     He lacks this venerable complication.
>     His poems are not of the second part of life.
>     They do not make the visible a little hard
>      
>     To see nor, reverberating, eke out the mind
>     On peculiar horns, themselves eked out
>     By the spontaneous particulars of sound.
>      
>     We do not say ourselves like that in poems.
>     We say ourselves in syllables that rise
>     From the floor, rising in speech we do not speak.
>      
>     --Wallace Stevens
>      
>
>
>     ========================================
>     David Graham
>     grahamd@ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd@ripon.edu>
>
>     Home Page:
>     http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
>     Poetry Library:
>     http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>     ==========================================
>
>
>
>     =
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     <  A href="mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>">New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep  1 15:08:53 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:17:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blocked access to art
Message-ID: <c45.3296c592.37cecb45@aol.com>

There's your niche, Jeff. I will look forward to the SRV  Conference.
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From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Sep  1 15:11:00 2009
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:19:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b06d3f670909011211m15e457d2qe8e48b1d9939b5d3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Why are you so uniformly combative?

On the other hand, if that's how I come across I don't belong here.
Think I'll unsubscribe for a while. Thanks for the honesty.

c
From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:17:03 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:25:54 2009
Subject: Oops Re: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909011217h341e592dg7d99a766deb812c9@mail.gmail.com>

Chris, I take exception to that.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Chris Lott <chris@chrislott.org> wrote:

> We're all idiots here. Except maybe Hal.
>
> c
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Chris and list: my apologies. I'm clearly an idiot. This was meant to go
> > b/c. I have no intention of starting a flame war on a list that seems to
> > teeter in that direction without my help.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > At 02:49 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
> >>
> >> Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling each other
> >> names doesn't mean that it's ok.
> >>
> >> Why are you so uniformly combative?
> >>
> >>
> >> At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public? Take
> it
> >>> > b/c.
> >>>
> >>> No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
> >>> traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
> >>>
> >>> c
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  1 15:28:49 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:38:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash, Nov. 7
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-757762-755973-2009.09.01-15.18.18--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755973-2009.09.01-15.18.18--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu>
Message-ID: <8CBF9518FF06B0F-3120-5E7@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>



14th Annual ?Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash?

Saturday November 7, 2009, 6:30 P.M.

?

Hartford Public Library
500 Main Street, Hartford, CT

?

Reception begins at 6:30 P.M.

?

Featured Speaker?MAJORIE PERLOFF

Revisiting the Adagia: The Role of Aphorism in Wallace Stevens? Poetry

?

?Poetry is a pheasant disappearing in the brush.?
?Wallace Steven, Adagia

?
Birthday Cake & Champagne after the Program!

?

Ticket: $45 per person; send check payable to:


Connecticut Center for the Book
500 Main Street
Hartford CT 06103.

?

Or to reserve your tickets at the door,
email Kat Lyons: klyons@hplct.org or call 860-695-6320.

?

Sponsored by 
Connecticut Center for the Book at the Hartford Public Library
with help from 
The Friends & Enemies of Wallace Stevens.

?

For more information, contact
Jim Finnegan, 860-508-2810
jforjames@aol.com

?



--

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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Sep  1 15:30:22 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue Sep  1 13:39:27 2009
Subject: Oops Re: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909011217h341e592dg7d99a766deb812c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909011217h341e592dg7d99a766deb812c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D764E.8030202@opus40.org>

Oh yeah? Wanna step outside and say that?

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Chris, I take exception to that.
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Chris Lott <chris@chrislott.org 
> <mailto:chris@chrislott.org>> wrote:
>
>     We're all idiots here. Except maybe Hal.
>
>     c
>
>     On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net
>     <mailto:junction@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>     > Chris and list: my apologies. I'm clearly an idiot. This was
>     meant to go
>     > b/c. I have no intention of starting a flame war on a list that
>     seems to
>     > teeter in that direction without my help.
>     >
>     > Mark
>     >
>     > At 02:49 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Because others are impolite enough to waste bandwidth calling
>     each other
>     >> names doesn't mean that it's ok.
>     >>
>     >> Why are you so uniformly combative?
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> At 02:37 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Mark
>     Weiss<junction@earthlink.net <mailto:junction@earthlink.net>>
>     >>> wrote:
>     >>> > This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in
>     public? Take it
>     >>> > b/c.
>     >>>
>     >>> No... it's no more personal correspondence than a bunch of other
>     >>> traffic on this list. Use your email filters wisely.
>     >>>
>     >>> c
>     >>> _______________________________________________
>     >>> New-Poetry mailing list
>     >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> New-Poetry mailing list
>     >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > New-Poetry mailing list
>     > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  1 15:57:20 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  1 14:06:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu><8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com><4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net><01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu><8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
	<f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CBF9558BEF3A50-3120-BDC@webmail-d054.sysops.aol.com>


I'm afraid I'm capable of not only irritable reaching, but also irritable flailing about.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence



If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights 
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?--Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org






On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:


I think that Stevens line...


?

?? speech is not dirty silence

Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.

?


is one of those?lines?that sounds intriguing and poetic but the more you think about 'silence being dirty', in almost any way you might?construe that notion,?the line becomes more and more?incomprehensible and thus less attractive. So I'm not certan why that line meant so much to Poirier. 

?

Here's a much better swath of Stevens as substitute...

?

It was not important that [the poems] survive.
What mattered was that they should bear
Some lineament or character, 

?

Some affluence, if only half-perceived,
In the poverty of their words,
Of=2
0the planet of which they were part. 


?Wallace Stevens, from ?The Planet On The Table?

?

Jim F




-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence







On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:


What poem is the dirty silence passage from, by the way, James? ?I don't remember it. ?I suspect the context makes the meaning of the passage, uh, less clear.

--Bob


===============




The Creations of Sound

?

If the poetry of X was music,

So that it came to him of its own,

Without understanding, out of the wall

=0 D 




?

Or in the ceiling, in sounds not chosen,

Or chosen quickly, in a freedom

That was their element, we should not know

?

That X is an obstruction, a man

Too exactly himself, and that there are words

Better without an author, without a poet,

?

Or having a separate author, a different poet,

An accretion from ourselves, intelligent

Beyond intelligence, an artificial man

?

A distance, a secondary expositor,

A being of sound, whom one does not approach

Through any exaggeration. From him, we collect.

?

Tell X that speech is not dirty silence

Clarified. It is silence made dirtier.

It is more than an imitation for the ear.

?

He lacks this venerable complication.

His poems are not of the second part of life.

The
y do not make the visible a little hard

?

To see nor, reverberating, eke out the mind

On peculiar horns, themselves eked out

By the spontaneous particulars of sound.

?

We do not say ourselves like that in poems.

We say ourselves in syllables that rise

>From the floor, rising in speech we do not speak. 

?

--Wallace Stevens

?








========================================

David Graham

grahamd@ripon.edu




Home Page:

http://web.me.com/drjazz




Poetry Library:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================










= 

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 17:20:21 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 15:29:16 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011211m15e457d2qe8e48b1d9939b5d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011211m15e457d2qe8e48b1d9939b5d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909011420n3544ed66v3ace97b61d5b3b49@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think Chris is uniformly combative.
I would like to remind those who have not been here for a while that, as Tad
Richards said, we are a bunch of friends.
The story with Bob is a tease me that I like it, at least from the way I
have always seen it, and I cannot say, but it seems to me the way Bob has
lived it.

Bob?



On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Chris Lott <chris@chrislott.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Why are you so uniformly combative?
>
> On the other hand, if that's how I come across I don't belong here.
> Think I'll unsubscribe for a while. Thanks for the honesty.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 17:39:57 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue Sep  1 15:48:54 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Post-re: From the Almanac (on "Not stooping to 
	personal attack")
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909010930x1a1ee7fdy38de83b8829f674e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<f160a1210909010930x1a1ee7fdy38de83b8829f674e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60909011439n57e5fec5qbf99cc02c7447cca@mail.gmail.com>

Tofu cringing from the package that contains it.

- Jim

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Halvard Johnson<halvard@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thou dost explain too much in vain.
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?--Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Lott wrote:
>>>
>>> Because, Shelley notwithstanding, poems aren't legislation?
>>
>> Ah, and neither is food that tastes lousy, so we should never complain
>> about that.
>>
>>> We can
>>> live without, outside of, and unaffected by poems.
>>
>> Some of us require art. ?Therefore, it is reasonable for us to prefer art
>> we like to art we don't, and to praise the former, and--sure--ignore the
>> latter, if we can. ?Unfortunately, the latter may have a way of blocking
>> access to the former for some of us. ?As I've explained in vain, but won't
>> bother to keep trying to explain.
>>
>>
>>> ?Not quite the same
>>> with laws is it?
>>>
>>> c
>>
>> Right, Chris. ?But that's how analogies work. ?Two things that are
>> different in some or many ways but share some feature that makes them work
>> together via analogy in an argument.
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>



-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf
http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/

From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  1 17:47:34 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  1 15:56:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brownfields
Message-ID: <8CBF964F2CE5917-3FC0-9A46@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>


Brownfields


The problem is that America
is no longer creating brownfields
at a sufficient rate. We have fallen 
far behind many Third World
countries in the creation of brownfields.



By and large brownfields are green
stretches of land adorned by a few 
abandoned buildings. As we speak,
many are being reclaimed as parks or 
for community gardens, though the squash 
and cucumbers should be tested 
prior to primary (human) consumption
or secondary (animal) feed use.



If one peers through that surrounding chainlink, 
sometimes you?ll see some kids on bikes 
or throwing stones in the brownfields. 
They seem to enjoy these spaces that adults 
scrupulously avoid. Brownfields are the future?s 
playgrounds, so to speak, places even alien 
spacecraft seldom set down upon. They remind 



one of ?Chritina?s World,? that lovely Wyeth
painting of the young girl sprawled in the grass,
leaning toward and looking at a farmhouse 
in the distance. That field was brown, an expanse
of beautiful brown grass, brownfield.

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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  1 19:08:44 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  1 17:17:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC>
	<4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net>
	<F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com>

It's a tempting interpretation [viz, "to" meaning "against"], Robin, and may
well be one side of a Shaksper double-intended meaning.  However, I'm
inclined to side with Brian and several others, and have an interesting
historical evolution of "to" with which to build my case.
The following sites give Middle English [evolving] versions of Psalm 23 that
many of us may've memorised as children:  "And I will dwell in the house of
the Lord forever."  The last part of the line evolved into "forever" as
follows [with my modern spelling as I don't have a 'thorn' symbol for the
sound of "th"], from 1250 to 1400 AD:   http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/
hel/psalm23.html

1]  "In length of days all with bliss."  (c. 1250-1300)
2]  "...in length of days."  (c. 1340)
3]  "...in length of days."  (c. 1350)
4]  "...in to the length of days."  (c. 1380-95, Early)
5]  "...in to the length of days."  (c. 1380-95, Later)

and
 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Psalm+23&
section=0&translation=wyc&oq=Psalm%252023&new=1&nb=ps&ng=23&ncc=23

6]  "for ever."  [1535]
7]  "a long season..."  [1560]
8]  "a long time."  [1568]
9]  "for ever."  [1611]

A similar evolution [namely, "in length of days" becoming "in to length of
days" and then "forever"] may be implied in Sonnet 18 ("when in eternal
lines to time thou grow'st") reasoned in these steps:

A]  when in my eternal [poetic] lines
B]  you grow in time
meaning:
C]  you will grow forever
thus:
D]  You will grow forever through my eternal poetry.

Best,

Judy

2009/8/31 Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com>

>
>>
> Abbott, _A Shakespearean Grammar_ (1870) has seven sections on "to" as a
> preposition:
>
>
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0080;layout=;loc=1;query=toc
>
> Unfortunately Abbot doesn't note the use in Sonnet 18, and the only entry
> which seems at all useful for Reading 2 is the following:
>
> "Motion against in:
>
>   The lady Beatrice hath a quarrel to you.
>   M. Ado, ii. 1. 44. "
>
> That would give as a possibility, "Your growth in [my] eternal lines
> challenges [is against, in opposition to] time."
>
> This sense of "to" meaning "against" is illustrated in more detail in No.25
> of the current OED entry on TO as a preposition:
>
> <<
>  25. Expressing impact (cf. 1, 5a) or attack: At, against, upon.
>
> a1225 Ancr. R. 62 Vre vo..scheot..mo cwarreaus to one ancre {th}en to
> seouene & seouenti lefdies i{edh}e worlde. 1375 BARBOUR Bruce x. 312 [He]
> set a sege to the castele. c1420 Avow. Arth. xxiv, Take thi schild and thi
> spere, And ride to him a course on werre. 1569 St. Papers Eliz., Foreign XI.
> 151 He had forces sufficient to make head to his enemies. 1641 BROME Jov.
> Crew IV. i, Heark! they knock to the Dresser. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones XVIII.
> xii, Western..with his hunting voice and phrase, cried out, 'To her, boy, to
> her, go to her'. 1832 SIR J. CAMPBELL Mem. II. ii. 46, I presented it [the
> gun] to him without any other idea but that of intimidation. 1882 G.
> MACDONALD Weighed & Wanting III. xviii. 256 His father's unmerciful use of
> the whip to him. 1888, 1889 [see TAKE v. 24b].
>
>   b. After words denoting opposition or hostility: Against; towards (obs.
> or arch.). {dag}In quot. 1670 simply: Against, so as to prevent (obs.).
>  Cf. to one's face, teeth, etc., in 5b.
>
> 13.. E.E. Allit. P. B. 1230 Hade {th}e fader..neuer trepast to him in teche
> of mysseleue. 1388 WYCLIF Ps. l. 6 [li. 4], I haue synned to thee aloone.
> Ibid. lxxxiv. 6 Whether thou schalt be wrooth to vs withouten ende? 1526
> TINDALE Col. iii. 13 If eny man have a quarrel to a nother. 1613 SHAKES.
> Hen. VIII, I. i. 43 To the disposing of it nought rebell'd. 1670 WALTON Life
> Herbert Pref., To embalm and preserve his sacred body to putrefaction. 1741
> MIDDLETON Cicero (1742) I. iv. 264 Clodius had an old grudge to the King,
> for refusing to ransom him. 1901 G. DOUGLAS Ho. w. Green Shutters 261 He had
> a triple wrath to his son.
>
>>
>>>
> I'm inclined, then, to go with "to" as meaning "against" in this particular
> case.
>
>       Nor shall death brag thou wandr'st in his shade,
>       When in eternall lines to time thou grow'st ...
>
> "To" is the problematic word for Reading 2, quite how to understand
> "growth" being a problem in both readings.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 19:28:29 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Tue Sep  1 17:37:25 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Request for Ecological Writing--Submissions for
	New Blog
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909011628r78f3e94fvdee95bd3d2533a3b@mail.gmail.com>

As some of you know, I began work at the beginning of July as co-Executive
Director of the 31-year-old non-profit Friends of Ballona Wetlands, L.A.'s
preeminent wetlands education and restoration group.  To learn more about
us, go here: http://www.ballonafriends.org.

 One of the conditions of my signing was that I wanted the Friends to start
a blog, which I hope will be a DAILY destination for people who care about
wetlands preservation and the larger environmental/crisis of soul issues
that arise from habitat loss, urbanization, etc.  It's a broad subject, and
I will interpret it broadly.

The Friends board has approved my request to edit a five-to-seven-day-a-week
daily "magazine," to begin soon, with different segments/columnists each
day, like Monday essays, Tuesday local Ballona sightings and news, Wednesday
local history, Thursday FAQs about wetlands (what's an "indicator species?"
etc.), Friday poetry, Saturday Best of Reader Contributions, and, maybe even
Sunday Comix and Opinion.

 Thus, this appeal to you for new, unpublished work, in poetry, fiction,
essays, art, book reviews, or even comics, that is somehow wetlands,
estuary, swamp, bog, fen, river, ocean, etc., oriented. Forests are probably
out, since we're a wetlands in a semi-desert ecosystem.

 I'd like to publish your original work (at the usual non-profit,
hat-in-hand rates, i.e. free) on the blog, and potentially in a "Best Of"
hard-copy anthology.  Those rights only; all other rights are yours.  I can
offer a reciprocal link to your blog, website, or book site, so you benefit
from networking.  Also, given enough notice, I often help out-of-town poets
I admire book readings in Los Angeles or San Francisco.  And finally, The
Friends have a few events of our own coming up, and I am trying to shake
loose funding from donors to pay readers.

Our blog audience is people who are concerned about environmental issues,
and who have varying degrees of literary sophistication.  I don't know that
concrete poetry will work, or that most of them could slog through *The
Cantos* without a playbook, but I am certain that (off the top of my head,
in no particular order) *In a Station of the Metro* would fly, as would
Stevens' *Anecdote of Men By the Thousands*, Rilke's *The Way In*, Oliver's
*Some Questions You Might Ask*, Pattiann Rogers' *Dream of the Marsh Wren*,
Abani's *Muir Woods*, Kabir's *The Clay Jug*, Lisa Jarnot's *Everything I
Know About Corn*, Yusef Komunyakaa's *Ode to the Maggot*, Harryette Mullen's
*Kills Bugs Dead*, Ritsos' *The Models*, Levertov's *The Reminder*, Ursula
K. Le Guin's *Riding on the Coast Starlight*, Richard Shelton's *Sonora for
Sale*, David St. John's *Iris, *even Jack Gilbert's *Haunted Importantly*
?etc.

My bias is toward "ecopoetry," which is not nature poetry, per se, but much
harder to define.  James Englehardt, in an essay in Octopus Magazine <
http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue09/engelhardt.htm>, suggests this:  The
ecopoem is connected to the world, and this implies responsibility.  Like
other poetic models that assume a connection and engagement (feminism,
Marxism, witness, etc.), ecopoetry is surrounded by questions of
ethics.  Should
the ecopoem *do* something in the world?  But how can a poem be said to
accomplish anything?

Scott Bryson's book "Ecopoetry" also has a number of wonderful essays and
definitions.  But don't get too hung up in definitions; I'll know what I
like when I see it.

As for essayists, I'm looking for the next Wendell Berry, Barry Lopez,
Oliver Sacks, Lewis Thomas, Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, Bill McKibben,
Michael Pollan, Terry Tempest Williams, Susan Griffin?or all of *them* and
more.  Good, straight-ahead stylists who combine clarity, lyricism, and
science.

As for fiction, I'm on less firm ground as an editor, but Kaaren Kitchell,
Antioch MFA and member of WOMPO, will be our fiction editor, so your work is
in good hands.

AND, if you write reviews, I'm interested specifically in your reviews
of poetry collections that advance the craft and push the boundaries of
"nature" or "ecopoetry."

We have plenty of local photography, but if you have fine art or
illustrations, feel free to submit those or direct me to where on the
Web I can secure a quality JPEG.

I already have poetry submissions from Annie Finch,
Janet Burroway, Ron Koertge, Tony Barnstone, Ann Fisher-Wirth, Christopher
Merrill, Ellen Bass, C.J. Sage and Linda Pastan, to name just a handful, so
you will be in good company.

While I'm writing to you from a specific, unique place, the Ballona
Wetlands, consider my request an appeal from a juncture, if you will, of
soul and territory, a juncture that calls to mind one of my favorite quotes
from the poet/essayist Wendell Berry:

*This is the phenomenon of edge or margin that we know to be one of the
powerful attractions of a diversified landscape, both to wildlife and to
humans.  The human eye itself seems drawn to such margins, hungering for the
difference made in the countryside by a hedgy fencerow, a stream, or a grove
of trees.  And we know that these margins are biologically rich, the meeting
of two kinds of habitat.***

Write to me from the rich margins where you and the outer world overlap.  As
Novalis wrote, *The seat of the soul is where the inner world and the outer*
* **world meet.  Where they overlap, it is in every point of the** **
overlap.*

To the mundane:  Please submit, if you choose, documents in Microsoft Word,
any version before 2008.  I'm not sure we'll be able to deal with complex
formatting in poems, but I'll do my best.  MANDATORY:  With your
submission, write me a paragraph about your nearest estuary, wetlands,
swamp, bog, fen or most inspiring body of water to run in the introduction
to your piece, and tell ME specifically where it is.  I would like to link
our readers to the specific natural place that most moves and inspires our
contributors.  I may even put in a Google Map link to the area (one of our
contributors, Michael Salcman, sails Chesapeake Bay, for example; Janet
Burroway walks in Florida), as I would if I were running (I wish, but I
don't know how to reach her yet) a Mary Oliver poem and would spotlight
Provincetown on Cape Cod.

Again, if you want to see what the blog will look like, it will resemble the
rest of our site, http://www.ballonafriends.org.  I look forward to
receiving your work.
Thank you,

Richard Beban
richardb@ballonafriends.org

_________________________
Richard Beban, Co-Executive Director
Friends of Ballona Wetlands (www.ballonafriends.org)

211 Culver Blvd., Suite K
Playa del Rey, CA 90293
310.306.5994


*poems: <http://www.beban.org>*
*
*
*pix: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/mythyes/>*
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 19:40:27 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Tue Sep  1 17:49:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909010743m5c839b60k7043d360dce62dec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909010743m5c839b60k7043d360dce62dec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909011640n19330a65wa864ffaf25dd7ded@mail.gmail.com>

it seems to consider matching letter combos within syllables (for "orange"
it does "ge" as one syllable, "nge" for two syllables)
had not occurred to me before...

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> Spanish, French, German, Latin, English, and much more
> Rhyming and so forth
> http://www.alcor.com.au/italian_rhyming_dictionary.asp
>
> for those who are interested, this dictionary solved one of my problems,
> now let's face all the other problems...
> Have a nice day,
>
> Anny
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 20:45:19 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 17:54:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>

Graham, David wrote:
> The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite kinds 
> of music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy for slack 
> key guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever recorded an 
> album with Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack key was never 
> even mentioned!
>
> So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently 
> been violated. Isn't that obvious?
>
> Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see what 
> an injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!  Blocked, I say!
>
>
>
>
>
> David Graham
Rather a weak attempt at parody, David, considering that I'm calling for 
the extrermination of all store-owners not stocking collections of 
visual poetry.

However, you have got me re-thinking my position.  It might well be 
better for me to act as uncomplainingly as you would if only one 
bookstore in a hundred that stocked poetry books had anything but 
collections of visual and infraverbal poetry, and no poet ever got a 
grant or other recognition but visual and infraverbal poets, and no 
magazine with a circulation of over a hundred printed more than two 
poems per issue that wasn't a visual poem or an infraverbal poem, and 
only seven classes in all the American colleges taught any kind of 
poetry but visual and infraverbal poetry.  Etc.

--Bob G.

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 20:51:14 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 17:59:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>

Mark Weiss wrote:
> This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public?
Because all public discussions are in part personal, and because this 
spun out of a public discussion, and because what's wrong with personal 
correspondences made public?  Some of them can be interesting. 
> Take it b/c.
>
> Mark
I find some of your posts uninteresting, too, Mark, but I don't ask that 
you take them b/c.

--Bob





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 20:59:00 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:07:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011139s490ad5d3v796a15e8189b510f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909011139s490ad5d3v796a15e8189b510f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9DC354.9000004@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Bob Grumman<bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>   
>>  I'm only irritated when trying
>> to explain what I've found to people who seem to think--sorry, feel, that
>> only the unexamined life is worth living.
>>     
>
> Or perhaps who don't think and/or feel (are these mutually exclusive
> activities for you?) 
Of course.  Which doesn't mean I can't do both at the same time.

> that your particular kind of examination is the
> only kind?
>
> c
I suppose we could go on for ten or fifteen posts about the meaning of 
"examination," but I'm not up to it.  I was just clicheing off of 
Socrates, who clearly meant philosophical examination, which to me means 
analytical--even scientific--examination.  Probably not to him.

--Bob
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 20:01:14 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:10:16 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <E1MidHs-0004PZ-JB@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm sorry you don't understand the difference. But so be it.

At 08:51 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>Mark Weiss wrote:
>>This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public?
>Because all public discussions are in part personal, and because 
>this spun out of a public discussion, and because what's wrong with 
>personal correspondences made public?  Some of them can be interesting.
>>Take it b/c.
>>
>>Mark
>I find some of your posts uninteresting, too, Mark, but I don't ask 
>that you take them b/c.
>
>--Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:04:14 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:12:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011159p705907adi9b73fae9f368e04b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net><E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfow
	l.atl.sa.earthlink.net><b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com><E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011159p705907adi9b73fae9f368e04b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9DC48E.7030901@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> What name-calling are you talking about? I made a joke about Bob being
> ball-gagged by Keats. Please.
>
> Uniform doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
Yeah, really not much of a flame war.  We've done worse, Chris and I. 

I note, by the way, that when no "flame wars" are going on at 
New-Poetry, hardly anything is other than James's encouraging 
announcements about some prize-winning poet who has just gotten his or 
her fourteenth big-cash award.

--Bob



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:05:49 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:14:10 2009
Subject: Oops Re: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net><E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfow
	l.atl.sa.earthlink.net><b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com><E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net><E1MiYY4-00047o-Ep@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011200j37b31bdhc4ea4c4db8169c93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9DC4ED.7080400@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> We're all idiots here. Except maybe Hal.
Hal is definitely not an idiot.  If he will only try harder, though, I'm 
sure he can work his way up the ladder.

--Bob

From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 20:05:14 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:14:15 2009
Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <E1MidLk-0005Bo-V4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Note that I didn't stoop to an ad hominem. I didn't say your private 
chat was boring, just that it belonged backchannel. To which you 
answer with an ad hominem. Your talent for classification seems to 
have failed you in this instance.

Please let's not make this into another distraction. I'll be happy to 
continue backchannel, for a little while, anyway.

Mark

At 08:51 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>Mark Weiss wrote:
>>This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public?
>Because all public discussions are in part personal, and because 
>this spun out of a public discussion, and because what's wrong with 
>personal correspondences made public?  Some of them can be interesting.
>>Take it b/c.
>>
>>Mark
>I find some of your posts uninteresting, too, Mark, but I don't ask 
>that you take them b/c.
>
>--Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:09:33 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:18:25 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu><8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d03
	8.sysops.aol.com><4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net><01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu><8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@web
	mail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
	<f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9DC5CD.5050802@nut-n-but.net>

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
> or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
>
> Hal
Would you get out of bed if something comprehensible were attractive to you?

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:14:29 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:22:54 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] b/c
In-Reply-To: <b06d3f670909011211m15e457d2qe8e48b1d9939b5d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net><E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfow
	l.atl.sa.earthlink.net><b06d3f670909011137n1fa1f3f5ic388e5a4d42b9dd6@mail.gmail.com><E1MiYQ5-0004Tt-6D@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
	<b06d3f670909011211m15e457d2qe8e48b1d9939b5d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9DC6F5.2040604@nut-n-but.net>

Chris Lott wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote:
>   
>> Why are you so uniformly combative?
>>     
>
> On the other hand, if that's how I come across I don't belong here.
>   

Sometimes you seem to feel that's the way I come across, Chris, but 
neither of us is "uniformly combative."  Except to those blinded to the 
full picture by the slightest hint of negativity.  I do believe we and 
others here have combative personalities--/in part/--but to me that's 
just another way of saying we're willing to stick up for our beliefs.

--Bob
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  1 20:20:14 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:29:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC>
	<7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC>

Judy is correct that "[In] to [the] length of days" provides a close syntactic parallel to the phrase, "to time", in Sonnet 18 -- the preposition 'to' followed by a noun referring to time.  And the later versions of the last line of Psalm 23 suggest that "length of days" was a synonym for eternity or forever, and thus close to "time" as used in Sonnet 18.

But the versions with the actual preposition "to" seem to be specific to Wycliffe and Wycliffe-derived texts:

Wycliffite Versions, c. 1380-95:

Early Version

And thi mercy shal vnderfolewe me; alle the da3is of the Lord; in to the lengthe of da3is.

Later Version (1395)

And thi mercy schal sue me; in alle the daies of my lijf. And that Y dwelle in the hows of the Lord; in to the lengthe of daies.

 

A Prymer Version, before 1400:

And thy mercy schal folwe me; all the dayes of my lyf.
And that y wonye in ?e hous of oure lord; in to lengthe of dayes.

 

Another Prymer Version, c. 1400:

And ?i merci schal sue me in alle ?e daies of my liyf;
And ?at y dwelle in ?e hous of ?e lord, in-to ?e leng?e of daies. 



This would suggest that this particular construction with "to" is relatively unusual, possibly even local to Wycliffe.



("For ever" seems to occur first in Miles Coverdale's 1535 translation, and from there reaches the KJV:



Miles Coverdale 1535

Oh let thy louynge kyndnes & mercy folowe me all the dayes off my life, that I maye dwell in the house off the LORDE for euer. 

 

            Geneva Bible  1560

Doubtlesse kindnesse and mercie shall followe me all the dayes of my life, and I shall remaine a long season in the house of the Lord.

 

Bishops? Bible 1568 

Truely felicitie and mercie shal folowe me all the dayes of my lyfe: and I wyll dwell in the house of God for a long tyme.

 

KJV 1611

Surely goodnes and mercie shall followe me all the daies of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for euer.  )



Against that, here are more Shakespearean uses of "to" = "in opposition to, against", taken from Onions' A Shakespeare Glossary: 



(Quotations expanded from the Folio.)



        LLL  V ii 87: Saint Denis to Saint Cupid



Boy.
1977: Muster your Wits, stand in your owne defence, 
1978: Or hide your heads like Cowards, and flie hence. 
1979: 
Qu.
Saint Dennis to S[aint]. Cupid: What are they, 
1980: That charge their breath against vs? Say scout say. 



        R2  I i 76:  arm to arms



Bul.
80: By that, and all the rites of Knight-hood else, 
81: Will I make good against thee arme to arme, 
82: What I haue spoken, or thou canst deuise.  



        H8  III ii 93: whet his anger to him



1945: 
Nor.
He's discontented. 
1946: 
Suf.
Maybe he heares the King 
1947: Does whet his Anger to him. 



        Troil.  II i 93: set your wit to a fool's



940: 
Aiax.
O thou damn'd Curre, I shall=== 
941: 
Achil.
Will you set your wit to a Fooles. 
942: 
Ther.
No I warrant you, for a fooles will shame it. 



        Lr.   IV ii 75: bending his sword To his great master.



2318: 
Mes.
A Seruant that he bred, thrill'd with remorse, 
2319: Oppos'd against the act: bending his Sword 
2320: To his great Master, who, threat-enrag'd 
2321: Flew on him, and among'st them fell'd him dead, 
2322: But not without that harmefull stroke, which since 
2323: Hath pluckt him after. 



Robin





----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Judy Prince 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 12:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18


  It's a tempting interpretation [viz, "to" meaning "against"], Robin, and may well be one side of a Shaksper double-intended meaning.  However, I'm inclined to side with Brian and several others, and have an interesting historical evolution of "to" with which to build my case.


  The following sites give Middle English [evolving] versions of Psalm 23 that many of us may've memorised as children:  "And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."  The last part of the line evolved into "forever" as follows [with my modern spelling as I don't have a 'thorn' symbol for the sound of "th"], from 1250 to 1400 AD:   http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/psalm23.html


  1]  "In length of days all with bliss."  (c. 1250-1300)
  2]  "...in length of days."  (c. 1340)
  3]  "...in length of days."  (c. 1350)
  4]  "...in to the length of days."  (c. 1380-95, Early)
  5]  "...in to the length of days."  (c. 1380-95, Later)


  and  
   http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Psalm+23&section=0&translation=wyc&oq=Psalm%252023&new=1&nb=ps&ng=23&ncc=23

  6]  "for ever."  [1535]
  7]  "a long season..."  [1560]
  8]  "a long time."  [1568]
  9]  "for ever."  [1611]


  A similar evolution [namely, "in length of days" becoming "in to length of days" and then "forever"] may be implied in Sonnet 18 ("when in eternal lines to time thou grow'st") reasoned in these steps:


  A]  when in my eternal [poetic] lines
  B]  you grow in time 
  meaning:
  C]  you will grow forever 
  thus:
  D]  You will grow forever through my eternal poetry.


  Best,


  Judy
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:28:26 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:37:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <E1MidHs-0004PZ-JB@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net><E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfow
	l.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MidHs-0004PZ-JB@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A9DCA3A.7030805@nut-n-but.net>

Mark Weiss wrote:
> I'm sorry you don't understand the difference. But so be it.
I totally understand the difference.  Do you understand the similarity?

There does seem to be, among the contentions going on here, one between 
those for whom differences obscure similarities and those for whom the 
reverse is true.  Laws and poems the same?!  My goodness!  Taxonomy 
depends on finding similarities, so those unable to find laws and poems 
similar in any meaningful way, will tend not to have much respect for 
it.  And, yes, there are those who are sensitive to both differences and 
similarities.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:34:13 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:42:45 2009
Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <E1MidLk-0005Bo-V4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org>
	<C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu><b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com><4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net><E1MiY9P-0003JH-52@elasmtp-spurfow
	l.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MidLk-0005Bo-V4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A9DCB95.6080102@nut-n-but.net>

Mark Weiss wrote:
> Note that I didn't stoop to an ad hominem. I didn't say your private 
> chat was boring, just that it belonged backchannel. To which you 
> answer with an ad hominem. Your talent for classification seems to 
> have failed you in this instance.
>
> Please let's not make this into another distraction. I'll be happy to 
> continue backchannel, for a little while, anyway.
>
> Mark
>
> At 08:51 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>> Mark Weiss wrote:
>>> This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public?
>> Because all public discussions are in part personal, and because this 
>> spun out of a public discussion, and because what's wrong with 
>> personal correspondences made public?  Some of them can be interesting.
>>> Take it b/c.
>>>
>>> Mark
>> I find some of your posts uninteresting, too, Mark, but I don't ask 
>> that you take them b/c.
>>
>> --Bob
You responded to a post of mine, saying it should be taken back 
channel.  That, to me, is responding personally to me.  Which doesn't 
bother me.  School marmism does. 

Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  1 21:42:21 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  1 18:51:06 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-
	but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com>
	<2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net>

I find Judy's contribution to this interesting, but have trouble with 
the switch of "in to" to plain "to."  That is, I want a more exact 
precursor--not "in to length of days," but "to length of days" without 
"in."  It'd be nice to have an early instance of "time" in place of 
"length of days."  Not that I wouldn't accept "to time" as simply 
"forever" if that were the best interpretation, but I Iike the one 
Robin's found a tick better.

I hope to remember to mention all the variant suggestions in my book, 
though--and properly attribute them.

Thanks for the continuing efforts.

The continuing examination.

--Bob


From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 20:54:07 2009
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Tue Sep  1 19:03:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <4A9DC5CD.5050802@nut-n-but.net>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu><8CBF8B5F9E58EDF-31F4-4881@webmail-d03
	8.sysops.aol.com><4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net><01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu><8CBF9488C0998D9-32B8-6761@web
	mail-d054.sysops.aol.com>
	<f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9DC5CD.5050802@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <91972.86026.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I, for one, actually get INTO bed with something attractive and incomprehensible, every night.

JohnJ




________________________________
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
To: halvard@gmail.com; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:09:33 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
> or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
>
> Hal
Would you get out of bed if something comprehensible were attractive to you?

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



      
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep  1 21:29:35 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue Sep  1 19:38:28 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>



1.  I really do love Hawaiian slack key guitar music, as it happens,  
but so far I've been utterly unsuccessful in transfering my enthusiasm  
to anyone else-- friend, foe or family.  I guess I'll live.  Like a  
lot of things, this love of mine is probably just destined to be  
forever a minority taste, and if I don't want to turn into a raving  
loon on the topic, I'd best just get used to that fact.

2.  No one is blocking my access to this music.  It's not featured on  
TV, Broadway, or the Grammy show, and the music department at Ripon  
College does not teach courses in it; but neither is it being censored  
by anyone.  It's just relatively unpopular in most of the country,  
with local exceptions.  And no amount of whining that Wynton Marsalis  
and Yo-Yo Ma do not promote this music is likely to make it popular.   
By definition, music is popular when a lot of people like it.

3.  The internet era has made this music, along with other less  
popular styles, *more* rather than less accessible.  In fact, five  
years ago I'd barely heard of Hawaiian slack key guitar, and now I  
have a small library of mp3s.  So:  not only is access not blocked,  
it's more and more wide open.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Graham, David wrote:
>> The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite  
>> kinds of music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy  
>> for slack key guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever  
>> recorded an album with Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack  
>> key was never even mentioned!
>>
>> So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently  
>> been violated. Isn't that obvious?
>>
>> Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see  
>> what an injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!   
>> Blocked, I say!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Graham
> Rather a weak attempt at parody, David, considering that I'm calling  
> for the extrermination of all store-owners not stocking collections  
> of visual poetry.
>
> However, you have got me re-thinking my position.  It might well be  
> better for me to act as uncomplainingly as you would if only one  
> bookstore in a hundred that stocked poetry books had anything but  
> collections of visual and infraverbal poetry, and no poet ever got a  
> grant or other recognition but visual and infraverbal poets, and no  
> magazine with a circulation of over a hundred printed more than two  
> poems per issue that wasn't a visual poem or an infraverbal poem,  
> and only seven classes in all the American colleges taught any kind  
> of poetry but visual and infraverbal poetry.  Etc.
>
> --Bob G.

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 01:12:36 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  1 23:21:29 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909011640n19330a65wa864ffaf25dd7ded@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909010743m5c839b60k7043d360dce62dec@mail.gmail.com>
	<f3cd389f0909011640n19330a65wa864ffaf25dd7ded@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909012212jdf74cfbk27a7dd21d3080f7c@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, Cathy, letters that rhyme, probably the final e is mute and they skip
it. In Italian they read it.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com> wrote:

> it seems to consider matching letter combos within syllables (for "orange"
> it does "ge" as one syllable, "nge" for two syllables)
> had not occurred to me before...
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Spanish, French, German, Latin, English, and much more
>> Rhyming and so forth
>> http://www.alcor.com.au/italian_rhyming_dictionary.asp
>>
>> for those who are interested, this dictionary solved one of my problems,
>> now let's face all the other problems...
>> Have a nice day,
>>
>> Anny
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> All best,
> Catherine Daly
> c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Wed Sep  2 02:03:32 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Wed Sep  2 00:12:20 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909012303t1f5f108cv2ceae8afae5bdb6d@mail.gmail.com>

Not parody, Bob, but in my opinion the most effective, reasonable,
sensitive, and humane response to your frustration with being ignored by
PoetWorld---with one significant analogical lack:  the poetry you do is
central to your feeling creative and meaningfully productive.
I rather think that your artwork's beautiful, and beauty's hugely necessary
to my joy and peace of mind, so I've a reverence for it.

Best,

Judy

2009/9/1 David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>

>
>
> 1.  I really do love Hawaiian slack key guitar music, as it happens, but so
> far I've been utterly unsuccessful in transfering my enthusiasm to anyone
> else-- friend, foe or family.  I guess I'll live.  Like a lot of things,
> this love of mine is probably just destined to be forever a minority taste,
> and if I don't want to turn into a raving loon on the topic, I'd best just
> get used to that fact.
>
> 2.  No one is blocking my access to this music.  It's not featured on TV,
> Broadway, or the Grammy show, and the music department at Ripon College does
> not teach courses in it; but neither is it being censored by anyone.  It's
> just relatively unpopular in most of the country, with local exceptions.
>  And no amount of whining that Wynton Marsalis and Yo-Yo Ma do not promote
> this music is likely to make it popular.  By definition, music is popular
> when a lot of people like it.
>
> 3.  The internet era has made this music, along with other less popular
> styles, *more* rather than less accessible.  In fact, five years ago I'd
> barely heard of Hawaiian slack key guitar, and now I have a small library of
> mp3s.  So:  not only is access not blocked, it's more and more wide open.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> Graham, David wrote:
>
> The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite kinds of
> music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy for slack key
> guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever recorded an album with
> Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack key was never even mentioned!
>
>
> So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently been
> violated. Isn't that obvious?
>
>
> Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see what an
> injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!  Blocked, I say!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Graham
>
> Rather a weak attempt at parody, David, considering that I'm calling for
> the extrermination of all store-owners not stocking collections of visual
> poetry.
>
> However, you have got me re-thinking my position.  It might well be better
> for me to act as uncomplainingly as you would if only one bookstore in a
> hundred that stocked poetry books had anything but collections of visual and
> infraverbal poetry, and no poet ever got a grant or other recognition but
> visual and infraverbal poets, and no magazine with a circulation of over a
> hundred printed more than two poems per issue that wasn't a visual poem or
> an infraverbal poem, and only seven classes in all the American colleges
> taught any kind of poetry but visual and infraverbal poetry.  Etc.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Wed Sep  2 02:09:15 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Wed Sep  2 00:18:03 2009
Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] On Pins (with angels) and Needles.
In-Reply-To: <4A9DCB95.6080102@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C3006.5020802@opus40.org> <C6C1B7D9.8285%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<b06d3f670909010849t442f7518t495ffaeccac9db46@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58F4.4090908@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010951h6ac4768et373a50df888d5313@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D6BAA.4080406@nut-n-but.net> <4A9DC182.2040405@nut-n-but.net>
	<E1MidLk-0005Bo-V4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A9DCB95.6080102@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909012309o467c3f42hc83bd79e0652b0f6@mail.gmail.com>

I like front channel down-n-dirtyism---nearly as entertaining as when
someone goofs and frontchannels a gossipy embarrassing back-channel-meant
message.  ok, and it's a lovely 'learning experience' sez schoolmarm Judy.
Quit picking your nose, and sit up straight.

2009/9/1 Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>

> Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>> Note that I didn't stoop to an ad hominem. I didn't say your private chat
>> was boring, just that it belonged backchannel. To which you answer with an
>> ad hominem. Your talent for classification seems to have failed you in this
>> instance.
>>
>> Please let's not make this into another distraction. I'll be happy to
>> continue backchannel, for a little while, anyway.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> At 08:51 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Weiss wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is really personal correspondence. Why enact it in public?
>>>>
>>> Because all public discussions are in part personal, and because this
>>> spun out of a public discussion, and because what's wrong with personal
>>> correspondences made public?  Some of them can be interesting.
>>>
>>>> Take it b/c.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>> I find some of your posts uninteresting, too, Mark, but I don't ask that
>>> you take them b/c.
>>>
>>> --Bob
>>>
>> You responded to a post of mine, saying it should be taken back channel.
>  That, to me, is responding personally to me.  Which doesn't bother me.
>  School marmism does.
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Wed Sep  2 02:11:32 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Wed Sep  2 00:20:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
In-Reply-To: <91972.86026.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <LYRIS-757762-755728-2009.08.31-20.47.26--JforJames#aol.com@lyris.wesleyan.edu>
	<4A9C8527.6020304@nut-n-but.net>
	<01BCC99D-30D9-4B06-A6DE-D3E6D3CE1DBE@ripon.edu>
	<f160a1210909011151p2f99f515p5e055547810b7af3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9DC5CD.5050802@nut-n-but.net>
	<91972.86026.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909012311g2738eb41ydefd24951bfa394b@mail.gmail.com>

Another man who sleeps with his guinea pig.  yoiks.
Best,

Judy

2009/9/1 John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail@yahoo.com>

> I, for one, actually get INTO bed with something attractive and
> incomprehensible, every night.
>
> JohnJ
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
> *To:* halvard@gmail.com; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <
> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:09:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Dirty silence
>
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > If everything that was incomprehensible to me were unattractive,
> > or less attractive, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
> >
> > Hal
> Would you get out of bed if something comprehensible were attractive to
> you?
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  2 02:13:58 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Wed Sep  2 00:23:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <AC788657-505C-4CF3-AD07-9DE5236ABA70@myuw.net>

i took a lab in hawaiian guitar at berklee. there were other classes  
too that dealt with polynesian music but i didn't take them because  
it's not my favorite style to play. it doesn't get offered every  
semester, but it does get offered. Also, slack key is a variant of  
standard fingerstyle playing in an open tuning. which means that its a  
style that virtually any reasonably competent guitarist can adapt to  
very quickly and there is lots of sheet music available for anyone who  
wants to learn it and books of these can be found in many music  
stores. there are lots of books on slack-key playing and any music  
store that carries world music will probably have several anthologies  
of slack key playing.

so the analogy doesn't really hold.

On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:29 PM, David Graham wrote:

>
>
> 1.  I really do love Hawaiian slack key guitar music, as it happens,  
> but so far I've been utterly unsuccessful in transfering my  
> enthusiasm to anyone else-- friend, foe or family.  I guess I'll  
> live.  Like a lot of things, this love of mine is probably just  
> destined to be forever a minority taste, and if I don't want to turn  
> into a raving loon on the topic, I'd best just get used to that fact.
>
> 2.  No one is blocking my access to this music.  It's not featured  
> on TV, Broadway, or the Grammy show, and the music department at  
> Ripon College does not teach courses in it; but neither is it being  
> censored by anyone.  It's just relatively unpopular in most of the  
> country, with local exceptions.  And no amount of whining that  
> Wynton Marsalis and Yo-Yo Ma do not promote this music is likely to  
> make it popular.  By definition, music is popular when a lot of  
> people like it.
>
> 3.  The internet era has made this music, along with other less  
> popular styles, *more* rather than less accessible.  In fact, five  
> years ago I'd barely heard of Hawaiian slack key guitar, and now I  
> have a small library of mp3s.  So:  not only is access not blocked,  
> it's more and more wide open.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> Graham, David wrote:
>>> The mainsteam media never pays enough attention to my favorite  
>>> kinds of music. The don't even have a separate category of Grammy  
>>> for slack key guitar solos, for instance, nor has Yo-Yo Ma ever  
>>> recorded an album with Sonny Lim. In music class in college, slack  
>>> key was never even mentioned!
>>>
>>> So you can see that my civil rights as a citizen have consistently  
>>> been violated. Isn't that obvious?
>>>
>>> Why can't you dullards who never even acknowledge slack key see  
>>> what an injustice has taken place? My access has been blocked!   
>>> Blocked, I say!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Graham
>> Rather a weak attempt at parody, David, considering that I'm  
>> calling for the extrermination of all store-owners not stocking  
>> collections of visual poetry.
>>
>> However, you have got me re-thinking my position.  It might well be  
>> better for me to act as uncomplainingly as you would if only one  
>> bookstore in a hundred that stocked poetry books had anything but  
>> collections of visual and infraverbal poetry, and no poet ever got  
>> a grant or other recognition but visual and infraverbal poets, and  
>> no magazine with a circulation of over a hundred printed more than  
>> two poems per issue that wasn't a visual poem or an infraverbal  
>> poem, and only seven classes in all the American colleges taught  
>> any kind of poetry but visual and infraverbal poetry.  Etc.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 07:59:42 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 05:08:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-
	but.net> <78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>

David Graham wrote:
>
>
> 1.  I really do love Hawaiian slack key guitar music, as it happens, 
> but so far I've been utterly unsuccessful in transfering my enthusiasm 
> to anyone else-- friend, foe or family.  I guess I'll live.  Like a 
> lot of things, this love of mine is probably just destined to be 
> forever a minority taste, and if I don't want to turn into a raving 
> loon on the topic, I'd best just get used to that fact. 
I really like typewriter poems, but I don't push that very specialized 
taste of mine here, I only push my taste for poems other than standard 
mainstream ones--not to be forced on people but merely given some notice 
that will reach more than fifteen or twenty people.   Your analogy would 
make sense if you were talking about a whole school of music (using lots 
of different instruments in lots of different ways) such as atonal 
classical music.  As is, it's idiotic. 
>
> 2.  No one is blocking my access to this music.  It's not featured on 
> TV, Broadway, or the Grammy show, and the music department at Ripon 
> College does not teach courses in it; but neither is it being censored 
> by anyone.  It's just relatively unpopular in most of the country, 
> with local exceptions.  And no amount of whining that Wynton Marsalis 
> and Yo-Yo Ma do not promote this music is likely to make it popular. 
>  By definition, music is popular when a lot of people like it. 
The point is not making a specialized field popular but in allowing 
people to know about it.  Access to visual poetry, for instance, is 
certainly blocked.  Unless you think nothing's blocked unless the police 
periodically visit retailers to make sure the item blocked is not 
available.  There is the passive blocking that starts with the poetry 
commentators able to get their words into venues that reach the general 
public and the teachers of poetry from whom thousands of students get 
their notion of poetry who don't mention the existence of any kinds of 
poems but the ones everyone already knows about, and even resist the 
notion of a list of schools of poetry.  I can't help but believe that 
part of the reason they, especially the teachers, are repulsed by the 
idea of such a list is that there will be poetries on it they know 
nothing about and might get asked about.  They don't want their 
ignorance known.

>
> 3.  The internet era has made this music, along with other less 
> popular styles, *more* rather than less accessible.  In fact, five 
> years ago I'd barely heard of Hawaiian slack key guitar, and now I 
> have a small library of mp3s.  So:  not only is access not blocked, 
> it's more and more wide open.
There are degrees of blockage.  The Internet /is/ helping reduce the 
problem, but there's a difference between my Runaway Spoon Press's 
having a website and critics like John Logan's mentioning the existence 
of the kinds of poetries that press publishes.  And now visual poetry 
may be starting to get some attention, /Poetry/ having published a 
gallery of it.  Based on how well it's done in certain Latin American 
countries, and my own belief in its value, I'm confident it will one day 
be as accepted as free verse.  But I'm almost seventy, so I think should 
be forgiven for wanting to hurry the acceptance.

--Bob G.
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep  2 05:30:55 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep  2 05:30:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-	but.net>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>

http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Visual poetry appears to have been featured at a conference on New Media 
Poetry at Iowa in 2002. It's taught at the Hyde Park art center in 
Chicago, was featured in an exhibit at the Topeka Library. You, of 
course, know all this much better than me.

It's made it onto postage stamps courtesy of Robert Indiana, and who was 
that nun in the 60s who made all those posters? So it even has its 
kitschy side.

The analogy holds up fine. People are allowed to know about visual 
poetry and slack-key guitar. To the extent that there's a demand for 
either of them, that demand will be met.


Bob Grumman wrote:
> David Graham wrote:
>>
>>
>> 1.  I really do love Hawaiian slack key guitar music, as it happens, 
>> but so far I've been utterly unsuccessful in transfering my 
>> enthusiasm to anyone else-- friend, foe or family.  I guess I'll 
>> live.  Like a lot of things, this love of mine is probably just 
>> destined to be forever a minority taste, and if I don't want to turn 
>> into a raving loon on the topic, I'd best just get used to that fact. 
> I really like typewriter poems, but I don't push that very specialized 
> taste of mine here, I only push my taste for poems other than standard 
> mainstream ones--not to be forced on people but merely given some 
> notice that will reach more than fifteen or twenty people.   Your 
> analogy would make sense if you were talking about a whole school of 
> music (using lots of different instruments in lots of different ways) 
> such as atonal classical music.  As is, it's idiotic. 
>>
>> 2.  No one is blocking my access to this music.  It's not featured on 
>> TV, Broadway, or the Grammy show, and the music department at Ripon 
>> College does not teach courses in it; but neither is it being 
>> censored by anyone.  It's just relatively unpopular in most of the 
>> country, with local exceptions.  And no amount of whining that Wynton 
>> Marsalis and Yo-Yo Ma do not promote this music is likely to make it 
>> popular.  By definition, music is popular when a lot of people like it. 
> The point is not making a specialized field popular but in allowing 
> people to know about it.  Access to visual poetry, for instance, is 
> certainly blocked.  Unless you think nothing's blocked unless the 
> police periodically visit retailers to make sure the item blocked is 
> not available.  There is the passive blocking that starts with the 
> poetry commentators able to get their words into venues that reach the 
> general public and the teachers of poetry from whom thousands of 
> students get their notion of poetry who don't mention the existence of 
> any kinds of poems but the ones everyone already knows about, and even 
> resist the notion of a list of schools of poetry.  I can't help but 
> believe that part of the reason they, especially the teachers, are 
> repulsed by the idea of such a list is that there will be poetries on 
> it they know nothing about and might get asked about.  They don't want 
> their ignorance known.
>
>>
>> 3.  The internet era has made this music, along with other less 
>> popular styles, *more* rather than less accessible.  In fact, five 
>> years ago I'd barely heard of Hawaiian slack key guitar, and now I 
>> have a small library of mp3s.  So:  not only is access not blocked, 
>> it's more and more wide open.
> There are degrees of blockage.  The Internet /is/ helping reduce the 
> problem, but there's a difference between my Runaway Spoon Press's 
> having a website and critics like John Logan's mentioning the 
> existence of the kinds of poetries that press publishes.  And now 
> visual poetry may be starting to get some attention, /Poetry/ having 
> published a gallery of it.  Based on how well it's done in certain 
> Latin American countries, and my own belief in its value, I'm 
> confident it will one day be as accepted as free verse.  But I'm 
> almost seventy, so I think should be forgiven for wanting to hurry the 
> acceptance.
>
> --Bob G.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From r_loden at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep  2 08:45:01 2009
From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden)
Date: Wed Sep  2 06:54:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rae Armantrout & Rachel Loden in Los Angeles
In-Reply-To: <AC788657-505C-4CF3-AD07-9DE5236ABA70@myuw.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
	<AC788657-505C-4CF3-AD07-9DE5236ABA70@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <F661BC34E8754486933227C1966DAF71@GlassCastle>

If you're in the LA area, please come and check us out! 

Tuesday, September 8
Rae Armantrout & Rachel Loden
Hammer Readings: New American Writing Series
Hammer Museum
10899 Wilshire Blvd. 
Los Angeles, CA
7:00pm - 8:30pm
Free 
Contact: 310-443-7000
info@hammer.ucla.edu

http://hammer.ucla.edu/programs/detail/program_id/278





From schloss at mail.com  Wed Sep  2 09:40:24 2009
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed Sep  2 07:49:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC>
	<4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445>

'to time' = 'to term' perhaps?

CW
_______________________________________________

That which is the future here, when read from right to left, has 
already happened. (Giorgio Manganelli)
From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  2 10:10:26 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  2 08:19:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net>
	<00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
Message-ID: <245F1ECA361D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC>

Are you suggesting an amendment, Christopher?

Robin


> 'to time' = 'to term' perhaps?
> 
> CW
> _______________________________________________
> 
> That which is the future here, when read from right to left, has 
> already happened. (Giorgio Manganelli)
> _______________________________________________


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 11:23:04 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 08:32:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-
	but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu><4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
> http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 
>
>
> Visual poetry appears to have been featured at a conference on New 
> Media Poetry at Iowa in 2002. It's taught at the Hyde Park art center 
> in Chicago, was featured in an exhibit at the Topeka Library. You, of 
> course, know all this much better than me.
>
> It's made it onto postage stamps courtesy of Robert Indiana, and who 
> was that nun in the 60s who made all those posters? So it even has its 
> kitschy side.
>
> The analogy holds up fine. People are allowed to know about visual 
> poetry and slack-key guitar. To the extent that there's a demand for 
> either of them, that demand will be met.
Right, and if I say nobody cares about reptiles, a proper parody would 
have someone saying that no one cares about a particular kind of clam 
living in some bay in Alaska and nowhere else.  I would add that I've 
never claimed visual poetry, and the many other ignored poetries I want 
acknowledged, was nowhere talked, reported on, exhibited and even sold, 
only that it gets perhaps a tenth of a percent as much serious attention 
as knownstream poetry (the kind of poetry that has been written for 
fifty years or more).  I don't think everyone should agree with me that 
it should get at least as much attention as knownstream poetry (about 
which no further attention is necessary, everything of interest having 
already been said a hundred times or more), but every thoughtful person 
should agree it should get a lot more than it has. 

Robert Indiana's work, by the way, has never gotten any attention as 
visual poetry, only as a form of visimagery (i.e., visual art).

--Bob G.

From schloss at mail.com  Wed Sep  2 10:30:24 2009
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed Sep  2 08:38:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net><00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
	<245F1ECA361D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445>

<snip>
Are you suggesting an amendment, Christopher?
<snip>

I think 'time' has that sense in this context. But I'm road testing the 
latest version of Swine Flu at the moment, so my mind may be somewhat 
fogged.

CW
_______________________________________________

That which is the future here, when read from right to left, has
already happened. (Giorgio Manganelli) 

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  2 10:41:47 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  2 08:51:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net><00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445><245F1ECA361D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC>
	<000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
Message-ID: <B5933D8EAC454E4AAE51373A22DA1F8A@RobinLaptopPC>

> <snip>
> Are you suggesting an amendment, Christopher?
> <snip>
>
> I think 'time' has that sense in this context. But I'm road testing the
> latest version of Swine Flu at the moment, so my mind may be somewhat
> fogged.
>
> CW

I'd find that a bit of a stretch, without further evidence.

Also time/Time figures much in the sequence, so a radical departure from the 
normal sense in which it is to be taken would have to be signaled, I think. 
The next sonnet, 19, is addressed to an almost exaggeratedly personified 
figure of Time, after all, which is also maybe relevant to whether the words 
in 18,"eternal lines to time," can be taken as "lines addressed to time'. 
Would that mean 18 foreshadows 19, or is 19 the clear case of what 'lines 
addressed to time' in 18 would be but aren't?

(Hope you get over the Pig Disease soon -- I've missed out on it so far.)

Robin 


From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep  2 08:56:43 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep  2 08:56:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-	but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu><4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>

This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is not 
all that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about three 
percent of the total sales of recorded music.

And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an important 
subset of poetry because you think it is, and Hawaiian slack-key guitar 
music is not an important subset of music even though David Graham 
thinks it is.

Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the visual 
treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore calls your 
theory into question.

Bob Grumman wrote:
> TheOldMole wrote:
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 
>>
>>
>> Visual poetry appears to have been featured at a conference on New 
>> Media Poetry at Iowa in 2002. It's taught at the Hyde Park art center 
>> in Chicago, was featured in an exhibit at the Topeka Library. You, of 
>> course, know all this much better than me.
>>
>> It's made it onto postage stamps courtesy of Robert Indiana, and who 
>> was that nun in the 60s who made all those posters? So it even has 
>> its kitschy side.
>>
>> The analogy holds up fine. People are allowed to know about visual 
>> poetry and slack-key guitar. To the extent that there's a demand for 
>> either of them, that demand will be met.
> Right, and if I say nobody cares about reptiles, a proper parody would 
> have someone saying that no one cares about a particular kind of clam 
> living in some bay in Alaska and nowhere else.  I would add that I've 
> never claimed visual poetry, and the many other ignored poetries I 
> want acknowledged, was nowhere talked, reported on, exhibited and even 
> sold, only that it gets perhaps a tenth of a percent as much serious 
> attention as knownstream poetry (the kind of poetry that has been 
> written for fifty years or more).  I don't think everyone should agree 
> with me that it should get at least as much attention as knownstream 
> poetry (about which no further attention is necessary, everything of 
> interest having already been said a hundred times or more), but every 
> thoughtful person should agree it should get a lot more than it has.
> Robert Indiana's work, by the way, has never gotten any attention as 
> visual poetry, only as a form of visimagery (i.e., visual art).
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 11:30:58 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed Sep  2 09:39:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org> <4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net> <4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net> <4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net> <4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909020830n7e333ff1k434d8023032bd29f@mail.gmail.com>

Glad you're not buying, Tad. Most of Bob's "ideas" are
over-priced.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:47 AM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:

> This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is not all
> that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about three percent of
> the total sales of recorded music.
>
> And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an important
> subset of poetry because you think it is, and Hawaiian slack-key guitar
> music is not an important subset of music even though David Graham thinks it
> is.
>
> Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the visual
> treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore calls your theory
> into question.
>
>
> Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> TheOldMole wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
>>>
>>> Visual poetry appears to have been featured at a conference on New Media
>>> Poetry at Iowa in 2002. It's taught at the Hyde Park art center in Chicago,
>>> was featured in an exhibit at the Topeka Library. You, of course, know all
>>> this much better than me.
>>>
>>> It's made it onto postage stamps courtesy of Robert Indiana, and who was
>>> that nun in the 60s who made all those posters? So it even has its kitschy
>>> side.
>>>
>>> The analogy holds up fine. People are allowed to know about visual poetry
>>> and slack-key guitar. To the extent that there's a demand for either of
>>> them, that demand will be met.
>>>
>> Right, and if I say nobody cares about reptiles, a proper parody would
>> have someone saying that no one cares about a particular kind of clam living
>> in some bay in Alaska and nowhere else.  I would add that I've never claimed
>> visual poetry, and the many other ignored poetries I want acknowledged, was
>> nowhere talked, reported on, exhibited and even sold, only that it gets
>> perhaps a tenth of a percent as much serious attention as knownstream poetry
>> (the kind of poetry that has been written for fifty years or more).  I don't
>> think everyone should agree with me that it should get at least as much
>> attention as knownstream poetry (about which no further attention is
>> necessary, everything of interest having already been said a hundred times
>> or more), but every thoughtful person should agree it should get a lot more
>> than it has.
>> Robert Indiana's work, by the way, has never gotten any attention as
>> visual poetry, only as a form of visimagery (i.e., visual art).
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
> --
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep  2 11:51:13 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep  2 10:00:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909020830n7e333ff1k434d8023032bd29f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909020830n7e333ff1k434d8023032bd29f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9E9471.4010106@opus40.org>

You can get a used copy on Amazon for fifty cents. Or is that what you 
meant by overpriced?

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Glad you're not buying, Tad. Most of Bob's "ideas" are
> over-priced.
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:47 AM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org 
> <mailto:Opus40-01@opus40.org>> wrote:
>
>     This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is
>     not all that bad, when you consider that classical music gets
>     about three percent of the total sales of recorded music.
>
>     And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an
>     important subset of poetry because you think it is, and Hawaiian
>     slack-key guitar music is not an important subset of music even
>     though David Graham thinks it is.
>
>     Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the
>     visual treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore
>     calls your theory into question.
>
>
>     Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>         TheOldMole wrote:
>
>             http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
>             <http://www.google.com/search?q=visual+poetry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a>
>
>
>             Visual poetry appears to have been featured at a
>             conference on New Media Poetry at Iowa in 2002. It's
>             taught at the Hyde Park art center in Chicago, was
>             featured in an exhibit at the Topeka Library. You, of
>             course, know all this much better than me.
>
>             It's made it onto postage stamps courtesy of Robert
>             Indiana, and who was that nun in the 60s who made all
>             those posters? So it even has its kitschy side.
>
>             The analogy holds up fine. People are allowed to know
>             about visual poetry and slack-key guitar. To the extent
>             that there's a demand for either of them, that demand will
>             be met.
>
>         Right, and if I say nobody cares about reptiles, a proper
>         parody would have someone saying that no one cares about a
>         particular kind of clam living in some bay in Alaska and
>         nowhere else.  I would add that I've never claimed visual
>         poetry, and the many other ignored poetries I want
>         acknowledged, was nowhere talked, reported on, exhibited and
>         even sold, only that it gets perhaps a tenth of a percent as
>         much serious attention as knownstream poetry (the kind of
>         poetry that has been written for fifty years or more).  I
>         don't think everyone should agree with me that it should get
>         at least as much attention as knownstream poetry (about which
>         no further attention is necessary, everything of interest
>         having already been said a hundred times or more), but every
>         thoughtful person should agree it should get a lot more than
>         it has.
>         Robert Indiana's work, by the way, has never gotten any
>         attention as visual poetry, only as a form of visimagery
>         (i.e., visual art).
>
>         --Bob G.
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>     -- 
>     Tad Richards
>     Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>     http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
>     http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>     http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 12:02:32 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep  2 10:11:20 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rae Armantrout & Rachel Loden in Los Angeles
In-Reply-To: <F661BC34E8754486933227C1966DAF71@GlassCastle>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea378c6fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-but.net>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
	<AC788657-505C-4CF3-AD07-9DE5236ABA70@myuw.net>
	<F661BC34E8754486933227C1966DAF71@GlassCastle>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909020902o3b25fcb4u788626b5982cf94@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations again Rachel, and my best wishes also to Rae Armantrout,

Anny

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Rachel Loden <r_loden@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> If you're in the LA area, please come and check us out!
>
> Tuesday, September 8
> Rae Armantrout & Rachel Loden
> Hammer Readings: New American Writing Series
> Hammer Museum
> 10899 Wilshire Blvd.
> Los Angeles, CA
> 7:00pm - 8:30pm
> Free
> Contact: 310-443-7000
> info@hammer.ucla.edu
>
> http://hammer.ucla.edu/programs/detail/program_id/278
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 13:36:04 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 10:44:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9E9471.4010106@opus40.org>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net><4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net><4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org><f160a1210909020830n7e333ff1k434d8023032bd29f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9E9471.4010106@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4A9EAD04.6060308@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
> You can get a used copy on Amazon for fifty cents. Or is that what you 
> meant by overpriced?

A used copy of what, Mole?  Can't be my "ideas," because no one has ever 
used them.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 13:49:55 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 10:58:29 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-
	but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu><4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org><4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
> This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is not 
> all that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about three 
> percent of the total sales of recorded music.

Of course, I made up the number.  Visual poetry, by that name, is 
clearly much less commercially viable than classical music.  
Non-commercially, too--big grants organizations, colleges and the 
government don't fund it the way they fund classical music.
>
> And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an important 
> subset of poetry because you think it is, 
I think it is with reasons.  You're free to dismiss my reasons and feel 
satisfied that nothing in poetry really counts except your kind of 
poetry because so many people also think a lot of it.  However, I give 
lots of arguments as to why certain visual poems are as important as any 
conventional poems.  If you really want to dismiss that responsibly, you 
need to show why this is not so.  Or get some prominent critic to study 
it long enough to tell people like me why another free verse text about 
a mom dying in the hospital is thirty times more worthy of critical 
attention than any visual poem.

> and Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset of 
> music even though David Graham thinks it is.
As I showed, Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset, 
but an important subset of an important subset of an important subset  
of an important subset of music.  Visual poetry is a subset of poetry.  
Typewriter poetry is a subset of a subset of visual poetry, so even it 
is at a higher taxonomical level in its field than slack-key music is in 
its.  Typewriter poetry using only mechanical machines would be closer 
to being taxonomically what slack-key music is.

>
> Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the 
> visual treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore calls 
> your theory into question.

I don't dismiss it.  I acknowledge many paintings and sculptures to be 
visual poetry.  My point, though, is that Indiana's commercial triumphs 
are not triumphs for visual poetry, because just about no one considers 
his work visual poetry.  No one sees one of his paintings, then goes to 
a library and asks for books on visual poetry.  John Logan doesn't 
review them.  Etc.



From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep  2 12:53:17 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:02:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9EAD04.6060308@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net>	<4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net><4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net><4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org><f160a1210909020830n7e333ff1k434d8023032bd29f@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E9471.4010106@opus40.org>
	<4A9EAD04.6060308@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4A9EA2FD.7070109@opus40.org>

Touche.

Bob Grumman wrote:
> TheOldMole wrote:
>> You can get a used copy on Amazon for fifty cents. Or is that what 
>> you meant by overpriced?
>
> A used copy of what, Mole?  Can't be my "ideas," because no one has 
> ever used them.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep  2 13:00:15 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:09:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-	but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu><4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org><4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>	<4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
	<4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4A9EA49F.7030606@opus40.org>



Bob Grumman wrote:
> TheOldMole wrote:
>> This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is not 
>> all that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about three 
>> percent of the total sales of recorded music.
>
> Of course, I made up the number.  Visual poetry, by that name, is 
> clearly much less commercially viable than classical music.  
> Non-commercially, too--big grants organizations, colleges and the 
> government don't fund it the way they fund classical music.
But you were talking about percentages -- the music market is much 
larger than the poetry market, so one can have a tiny percentage of it 
and still be larger than, quite likely, all of poetry. It's still a 
market issue.

>>
>> And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an important 
>> subset of poetry because you think it is, 
> I think it is with reasons.  You're free to dismiss my reasons and 
> feel satisfied that nothing in poetry really counts except your kind 
> of poetry because so many people also think a lot of it.  However, I 
> give lots of arguments as to why certain visual poems are as important 
> as any conventional poems.  If you really want to dismiss that 
> responsibly, you need to show why this is not so.  Or get some 
> prominent critic to study it long enough to tell people like me why 
> another free verse text about a mom dying in the hospital is thirty 
> times more worthy of critical attention than any visual poem.

I don't think it's unimportant, and I hold no great brief for free verse 
poems about dying moms. That wasn't my point.
>
>> and Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset of 
>> music even though David Graham thinks it is.
> As I showed, Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important 
> subset, but an important subset of an important subset of an important 
> subset  of an important subset of music.  Visual poetry is a subset of 
> poetry.  Typewriter poetry is a subset of a subset of visual poetry, 
> so even it is at a higher taxonomical level in its field than 
> slack-key music is in its.  Typewriter poetry using only mechanical 
> machines would be closer to being taxonomically what slack-key music is.

This IS my point. Your sets and subsets are arbitrary. Why isn't vizpo 
an important subset of an important subset (the school of noisitude) of 
poetry?
>
>>
>> Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the 
>> visual treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore 
>> calls your theory into question.
>
> I don't dismiss it.  I acknowledge many paintings and sculptures to be 
> visual poetry.  My point, though, is that Indiana's commercial 
> triumphs are not triumphs for visual poetry, because just about no one 
> considers his work visual poetry.  No one sees one of his paintings, 
> then goes to a library and asks for books on visual poetry.  John 
> Logan doesn't review them.  Etc.
>
>
> This can only be ascribed to poor marketing by the vizpo folks.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:00:39 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:09:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Are E-Readers Greener Than Books?
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909021000u62418da1gb4339ea23a089242@mail.gmail.com>

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/are-e-readers-greener-than-books/

?The new study finds that e-readers could have a major impact on improving
the sustainability and environmental impact on the publishing industry, one
of the world?s most polluting sectors,? a statement at Cleantech?s Web site
states. ?In 2008, the U.S. book and newspaper industries combined resulted
in the harvesting of 125 million trees, not to mention wastewater that was
produced or its massive carbon footprint.?


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:19:03 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:27:53 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org> <4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net>
	<E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu>
	<78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu>
	<4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net> <4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org>
	<4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net> <4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org>
	<4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909021019x51c3e751ob473491442708b85@mail.gmail.com>

That's so post-post-post-post-post-post-post-postmodern.

Postmodernly,
Jeff Newberry

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> TheOldMole wrote:
>
>> This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is not all
>> that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about three percent of
>> the total sales of recorded music.
>>
>
> Of course, I made up the number.  Visual poetry, by that name, is clearly
> much less commercially viable than classical music.  Non-commercially,
> too--big grants organizations, colleges and the government don't fund it the
> way they fund classical music.
>
>>
>> And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an important
>> subset of poetry because you think it is,
>>
> I think it is with reasons.  You're free to dismiss my reasons and feel
> satisfied that nothing in poetry really counts except your kind of poetry
> because so many people also think a lot of it.  However, I give lots of
> arguments as to why certain visual poems are as important as any
> conventional poems.  If you really want to dismiss that responsibly, you
> need to show why this is not so.  Or get some prominent critic to study it
> long enough to tell people like me why another free verse text about a mom
> dying in the hospital is thirty times more worthy of critical attention than
> any visual poem.
>
>  and Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset of music
>> even though David Graham thinks it is.
>>
> As I showed, Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset,
> but an important subset of an important subset of an important subset  of an
> important subset of music.  Visual poetry is a subset of poetry.  Typewriter
> poetry is a subset of a subset of visual poetry, so even it is at a higher
> taxonomical level in its field than slack-key music is in its.  Typewriter
> poetry using only mechanical machines would be closer to being taxonomically
> what slack-key music is.
>
>
>> Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the visual
>> treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore calls your theory
>> into question.
>>
>
> I don't dismiss it.  I acknowledge many paintings and sculptures to be
> visual poetry.  My point, though, is that Indiana's commercial triumphs are
> not triumphs for visual poetry, because just about no one considers his work
> visual poetry.  No one sees one of his paintings, then goes to a library and
> asks for books on visual poetry.  John Logan doesn't review them.  Etc.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  2 13:22:39 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:31:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Lieu of Stain -- poetry + music + you @				 
Message-ID: <118058.14051.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


Dear NYC+ friends and poets,

This is a little poetry drive. Please do read on. In lieu of a September reading, the Stain of Poetry (Amy King + me) are blowing our wind in the sails of an extraordinary benefit, to take place on September 13th @ The Living Room NYC. Amy joins Michael Tyrell and a slew of musicians & bands for a night of revelry, all for the cost of a cheap concert ticket ($15). Find out more about the event here (where you can also buy tickets):
http://foggedclarity.com/2009/07/the-living-room/

or here:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=143766517563&ref=mf

and give some of the bands a listen:
Strand of Oaks --?http://www.myspace.com/strandofoaks
Judson Claiborne- -?http://www.myspace.com/judsonclaiborne
Samantha Farrell --?http://www.myspace.com/samanthafarrell
Karisa Wilson --?http://www.myspace.com/wilsonkarisa
Amir Darzi --?http://www.myspace.com/amirdarzi


You'll be supporting the print edition of Fogged Clarity & having a dazzling time -- we've been to one of these evenings, and they move, rock, sway & shine unlike anything we've witnessed. Come with us! And let me know if you have any questions.

xo,

Ana?

--?
Amy's Alias
http://amyking.org/


      
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From schloss at mail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:42:11 2009
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed Sep  2 11:50:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net><00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445><245F1ECA361D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC><000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
	<B5933D8EAC454E4AAE51373A22DA1F8A@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <005a01ca2bf4$b3feb830$0400a8c0@your403379e445>

<snip>
Also time/Time figures much in the sequence, so a radical departure from the
normal sense in which it is to be taken would have to be signaled, I think.
<snip>

I'm not sure I'd want to support a normalising reading of anything quite as 
slippery as 'time' in a poem which blends (amongst others) the language of 
financial transactions ('too short a date', for example) with those of 
horticulture and navigation.

That said, the sonnet plays with extent and with limitation, stopping once 
it's got going. So one meaning of 'to time' is, I think, 'eternally', 'for 
ever', time without limit. Then there's a second meaning (less obvious, but 
I do think it's there) which is the opposite of that: 'maturity' or 'term', 
time defined by a limit, which could refer to pregnancy but here refers, as 
well as to life as limited by death, to something like the period of a lease 
or the date of a bill of exchange. That fits with 'too short a date', 
'declines' and even 'lose possession'.

What I don't think is a runner is lines-addressed-to-time or anything of 
that sort. That's not how the syntax works.

Interestingly, Coriolanus V iii uses a similar link, this time between 
eternity and birth. Volumnia says to Coriolanus:
   '...thou shalt no sooner
   March to assault thy country than to tread -
   Trust to 't, thou shalt not - on thy mother's womb
   That brought thee to this world.'

Whereupon Virgilia adds:
   'Ay, and mine,
   That brought you forth this boy, to keep your name
   Living to time.'

CW
_______________________________________________

That which is the future here, when read from right to left, has
already happened. (Giorgio Manganelli) 

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep  2 12:56:04 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:03:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <C6C40DD4.8387%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Among the many  reasons John Logan doesn't review books of visual poetry,
perhaps one stands out above all:  he's been dead since 1987.


On 9/2/09 12:49 PM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>  John Logan doesn't
> review them.  Etc.

-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================



From manaster at uiuc.edu  Wed Sep  2 13:58:02 2009
From: manaster at uiuc.edu (Robert Manaster)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:06:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18... One More Time
Message-ID: <4A9EB22A.9030706@uiuc.edu>


Hi.  Interesting discussion on sonnet 18.  Wonderful interpretations...
I'd like to speak further about Finnegan's observation about the redundancy
of 'eternal' & 'time' doing somewhat the same semantic work... Perhaps
these terms are not redundant and not doing the same work.  

The phrase "eternal lines" seems to echo "eternal summer" at the 
sonnet's turn.
This echo further emphasizes the fusion of art & time that occurs in the 
poem.
In this phrase, both Art & Time are unlimited & forever.

What about "time" in this line?  What does it signify?  Perhaps, this 
time "time"
is more finite-- not forever, not the future.  There's this sense of 
time especially
in the line above with Death-- an ending to life & that person's time.  
In fact, doesn't
the whole poem rely on this play between the "living," temporal time and
eternal time?  

So, in the twelfth line, perhaps Shakespeare compresses this comparison 
between
the infinite and finite.  In this interpretation, "to" seems to work as 
the separation between
the infinite and finite.  While "against" is close to this 
interpretation, closer may be:
"When in eternal lines [compared] to time...," echoing a little of the 
first line but
replacing "thee," which we didn't know was infinite at first, with the "in
eternal lines" here.

In this line then, when the addressed subject of the poem, "thee," is 
placed in the infinite
(i.e., in the sonnet's lines) compared to "thee" placed in the context 
of actual life,
 "thee" essentially transforms/grows into a new kind of "life" (in last 
line)--
the infinite-- which "thou growest" in the finite world anticipates.


    Robert

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 15:09:54 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:18:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <4A9EA49F.7030606@opus40.org>
References: <4A9C11DE.5010502@opus40.org><B6EE1FD5F83E4446BAB6A3DDE932783F@win.louisiana.edu><4A9C477F.6050403@nut-n-but.net><731
	bb17a0908311438v2d268666q10c758b8138a86fd@mail.gmail.com><4A9C595E.7080303@nut-n-but.net><b06d3f670909010848s67cd70f0n1bef4ea37
	8c6fa98@mail.gmail.com><4A9D58C1.3060802@nut-n-but.net><E30559A8-5BB7-42E0-A3D3-C7F6C44B22A8@ripon.edu><4A9DC01F.5030306@nut-n-
	but.net><78DBA4F0-2526-4BCE-9EA3-6BA25FA8D8A7@ripon.edu><4A9E5E2E.4090705@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AC5E253.4090805@opus40.org><4A9E8DD8.3070205@nut-n-but.net>	<4AC61290.6010504@opus40.org><4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net>
	<4A9EA49F.7030606@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4A9EC302.6050004@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
>
>
> Bob Grumman wrote:
>> TheOldMole wrote:
>>> This is, basically, the market talking. One tenth of a percent is 
>>> not all that bad, when you consider that classical music gets about 
>>> three percent of the total sales of recorded music.
>>
>> Of course, I made up the number.  Visual poetry, by that name, is 
>> clearly much less commercially viable than classical music.  
>> Non-commercially, too--big grants organizations, colleges and the 
>> government don't fund it the way they fund classical music.
> But you were talking about percentages -- the music market is much 
> larger than the poetry market, so one can have a tiny percentage of it 
> and still be larger than, quite likely, all of poetry. It's still a 
> market issue.


>
>>>
>>> And I still don't buy the argument that visual poetry is an 
>>> important subset of poetry because you think it is, 
>> I think it is with reasons.  You're free to dismiss my reasons and 
>> feel satisfied that nothing in poetry really counts except your kind 
>> of poetry because so many people also think a lot of it.  However, I 
>> give lots of arguments as to why certain visual poems are as 
>> important as any conventional poems.  If you really want to dismiss 
>> that responsibly, you need to show why this is not so.  Or get some 
>> prominent critic to study it long enough to tell people like me why 
>> another free verse text about a mom dying in the hospital is thirty 
>> times more worthy of critical attention than any visual poem.
>
> I don't think it's unimportant, and I hold no great brief for free 
> verse poems about dying moms. That wasn't my point.
>>
>>> and Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important subset of 
>>> music even though David Graham thinks it is.
>> As I showed, Hawaiian slack-key guitar music is not an important 
>> subset, but an important subset of an important subset of an 
>> important subset  of an important subset of music.  Visual poetry is 
>> a subset of poetry.  Typewriter poetry is a subset of a subset of 
>> visual poetry, so even it is at a higher taxonomical level in its 
>> field than slack-key music is in its.  Typewriter poetry using only 
>> mechanical machines would be closer to being taxonomically what 
>> slack-key music is.
>
> This IS my point. Your sets and subsets are arbitrary. Why isn't vizpo 
> an important subset of an important subset (the school of noisitude) 
> of poetry?
Because that would be stupid taxonomy.  I--yes, arbitrarily--divide 
poetry into two sets, based on what they materially are: linguexpressive 
and plurexpressive poetry, for poetry that is linguistically expressive 
only and poetry that is also significantly expressive in other 
way--visually, in the case of visual poetry.  So I got myself wrong, 
it's plurexpressive poetry that's a subset of poetry; visual poetry is a 
level down.

This division makes sense to me.  Actually, I could even say it's 
taxonomically dominant, but that's only because no taxonomy opposes it, 
there being no taxonomy of poetry (so far as I know).  It seems to make 
sense to many others, too--the many who often distinguish visual from 
ordinary poetry.  It also makes sense to me that there is a big jump 
from an art that uses only the verbal part of the brain to one that uses 
that part of the brain and other equally large parts of the brain, such 
as visual part. 

I'm open to suggestions for a different system of classification but am 
familiar with none and can't think of any that works for me. 

There seems to be precedent, too, in the division of drama from fiction, 
and opera from music and literature.

Note that I count infraverbal poetry and other forms of language poetry 
as linguexpressive poetry.  (I hope, by the way, that no one will charge 
me with weighting my two terms in favor of my kind of poetry, as 
"burstnorm' was said to do, although I'm some will--without suggesting 
more neutral terms).  Anyway,  some poetry I believe severely 
under-recognized is part of the more conventional set.

The School of Quietude is undefined and without taxonomic value.  It is 
nowhere in my system.
>>
>>>
>>> Nor do I buy the idea that you can dismiss one whole area of the 
>>> visual treatment of words because it's too popular and therefore 
>>> calls your theory into question.
>>
>> I don't dismiss it.  I acknowledge many paintings and sculptures to 
>> be visual poetry.  My point, though, is that Indiana's commercial 
>> triumphs are not triumphs for visual poetry, because just about no 
>> one considers his work visual poetry.  No one sees one of his 
>> paintings, then goes to a library and asks for books on visual 
>> poetry.  John Logan doesn't review them.  Etc.
>>
>>
>> This can only be ascribed to poor marketing by the vizpo folks.
Very few artists of any kind are good at marketing but that's 
irrelevant.  The point is that it is ignored by critics, some of whom 
should say something about it.  How it is that someone like Indiana 
catches on I think obvious--his work is graphically vivid and textually 
simple.  It's taken as visimagery, or visual art, and works as that.  
Poets' visual poetry, on the other hand, is taken as text, so the 
graphic elements bother literary people,few of whom are gifted in visual 
appreciation.  Many other complications, such as the ease with which a 
picture can be marketed as opposed to a poem--hang up the picture and 
hundreds can glance at it and get enough from it to like or dislike it.  
Which brings up another problem for visual poetry, which is that art 
galleries aren't eager to exhibit it, though a fair number have.  
Actually, a major problem is that most people can't appreciate two or 
more arts at the same time, so editors reject visual poetry for being 
too visual, and curators reject it for being to verbal.  Many other 
complications.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 15:17:56 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:26:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <005a01ca2bf4$b3feb830$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-
	but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE6
	7064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net><00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445><245F1ECA3
	61D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC><000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445><B5933D8EAC454E4AAE51373A22DA1F8A@RobinLap
	topPC> <005a01ca2bf4$b3feb830$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
Message-ID: <4A9EC4E4.4070408@nut-n-but.net>


> Interestingly, Coriolanus V iii uses a similar link, this time between 
> eternity and birth. Volumnia says to Coriolanus:
>    '...thou shalt no sooner
>    March to assault thy country than to tread -
>    Trust to 't, thou shalt not - on thy mother's womb
>    That brought thee to this world.'
>
> Whereupon Virgilia adds:
>    'Ay, and mine,
>    That brought you forth this boy, to keep your name
>    Living to time.'
>
> CW
Just when I thought I had it figured, this, which strongly suggests the 
sonnet's "to time" is just "to time (ahead)" or some such, and it's 
"thou growst into the future."

I'll need time to think about it, though.

--Bob

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  2 14:18:10 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:27:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
In-Reply-To: <005a01ca2bf4$b3feb830$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
References: <667259.40333.qm@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com><51DF20DE6C0644B9963C6E0CF81929D8@RobinLaptopPC><4A9BC110.2050400@nut-n-but.net><F31753BB7A9C4647A843F1D2773332E3@RobinLaptopPC><7db1d01b0909011608g6b0b005cx77a31862a1026495@mail.gmail.com><2C69CDCE67064F7BA284DFC6E4F455FF@RobinLaptopPC><4A9DCD7D.2060608@nut-n-but.net><00e101ca2bd2$ee6f2b70$0400a8c0@your403379e445><245F1ECA361D46ECAF3262A345BF4628@RobinLaptopPC><000b01ca2bd9$e9214610$0400a8c0@your403379e445><B5933D8EAC454E4AAE51373A22DA1F8A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<005a01ca2bf4$b3feb830$0400a8c0@your403379e445>
Message-ID: <683CDA69492241ADB69A4E2118B96C98@RobinLaptopPC>

Put that way, it's more convincing Christopher.  Will think on it some more 
now.

Really like your citation of _Coriolanus_, especially Virgilia's "living to 
[sic] time."

Back to unteasing Psalm 23's "in [to the] length of days" which seems to be 
a word for word and unidiomatic translation of the Vulgate's "in 
longitudinem dierum," which is itself a literal translation of the Hebrew 'orekh 
yamim, "length of days".

There's more to it (I currently have five pages of notes) but that's the 
crunch, which would suggest the Psalm 23 words don't provide much leverage 
on Sonnet 18, not being either in widespread use nor natural English.

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss@mail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18


> <snip>
> Also time/Time figures much in the sequence, so a radical departure from 
> the
> normal sense in which it is to be taken would have to be signaled, I 
> think.
> <snip>
>
> I'm not sure I'd want to support a normalising reading of anything quite 
> as
> slippery as 'time' in a poem which blends (amongst others) the language of
> financial transactions ('too short a date', for example) with those of
> horticulture and navigation.
>
> That said, the sonnet plays with extent and with limitation, stopping once
> it's got going. So one meaning of 'to time' is, I think, 'eternally', 'for
> ever', time without limit. Then there's a second meaning (less obvious, 
> but
> I do think it's there) which is the opposite of that: 'maturity' or 
> 'term',
> time defined by a limit, which could refer to pregnancy but here refers, 
> as
> well as to life as limited by death, to something like the period of a 
> lease
> or the date of a bill of exchange. That fits with 'too short a date',
> 'declines' and even 'lose possession'.
>
> What I don't think is a runner is lines-addressed-to-time or anything of
> that sort. That's not how the syntax works.
>
> Interestingly, Coriolanus V iii uses a similar link, this time between
> eternity and birth. Volumnia says to Coriolanus:
>   '...thou shalt no sooner
>   March to assault thy country than to tread -
>   Trust to 't, thou shalt not - on thy mother's womb
>   That brought thee to this world.'
>
> Whereupon Virgilia adds:
>   'Ay, and mine,
>   That brought you forth this boy, to keep your name
>   Living to time.'
>
> CW
> _______________________________________________
>
> That which is the future here, when read from right to left, has
> already happened. (Giorgio Manganelli)
>
> _______________________________________________


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 15:20:50 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:29:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18... One More Time
In-Reply-To: <4A9EB22A.9030706@uiuc.edu>
References: <4A9EB22A.9030706@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4A9EC592.1090805@nut-n-but.net>

Robert Manaster wrote:
>
> Hi.  Interesting discussion on sonnet 18.  Wonderful interpretations...
> I'd like to speak further about Finnegan's observation about the 
> redundancy
> of 'eternal' & 'time' doing somewhat the same semantic work... Perhaps
> these terms are not redundant and not doing the same work. 
> The phrase "eternal lines" seems to echo "eternal summer" at the 
> sonnet's turn.
> This echo further emphasizes the fusion of art & time that occurs in 
> the poem.
> In this phrase, both Art & Time are unlimited & forever.
>
> What about "time" in this line?  What does it signify?  Perhaps, this 
> time "time"
> is more finite-- not forever, not the future.  There's this sense of 
> time especially
> in the line above with Death-- an ending to life & that person's 
> time.  In fact, doesn't
> the whole poem rely on this play between the "living," temporal time and
> eternal time? 
> So, in the twelfth line, perhaps Shakespeare compresses this 
> comparison between
> the infinite and finite.  In this interpretation, "to" seems to work 
> as the separation between
> the infinite and finite.  While "against" is close to this 
> interpretation, closer may be:
> "When in eternal lines [compared] to time...," echoing a little of the 
> first line but
> replacing "thee," which we didn't know was infinite at first, with the 
> "in
> eternal lines" here.
>
> In this line then, when the addressed subject of the poem, "thee," is 
> placed in the infinite
> (i.e., in the sonnet's lines) compared to "thee" placed in the context 
> of actual life,
> "thee" essentially transforms/grows into a new kind of "life" (in last 
> line)--
> the infinite-- which "thou growest" in the finite world anticipates.
>
>
>    Robert
Good thinking here, too, but I'm now too confused to say more.  I do 
hope at length to unconfuse.  Thanks, all, for continuing this to time.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  2 15:22:03 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed Sep  2 12:30:10 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <C6C40DD4.8387%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C6C40DD4.8387%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4A9EC5DB.6@nut-n-but.net>

David Graham wrote:
> Among the many  reasons John Logan doesn't review books of visual poetry,
> perhaps one stands out above all:  he's been dead since 1987.
But William Logan's been dead longer than that, hasn't he?

--Bob

From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 14:51:54 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed Sep  2 13:00:42 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blocked access to art
In-Reply-To: <C6C40DD4.8387%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <4A9EB043.1050209@nut-n-but.net> <C6C40DD4.8387%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909021151t493d01fard737d8d147f82717@mail.gmail.com>

Excuses, excuses.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 11:56 AM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:

> Among the many  reasons John Logan doesn't review books of visual poetry,
> perhaps one stands out above all:  he's been dead since 1987.
>
>
> On 9/2/09 12:49 PM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> >  John Logan doesn't
> > review them.  Etc.
>
> --
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  2 20:08:42 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  2 18:17:42 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poe play
Message-ID: <8CBFA41D4927A35-DF8-AFB6@webmail-m021.sysops.aol.com>


http://blog.seattlepi.com/bookpatrol/archives/178061.asp?from=blog_last3
Playwright Puts The "Poe" In Poetry



As previously noted here on Book Patrol, 2009 marks the bicentennial of the birth of America's unrivaled genius of the Gothic horror genre, poet and short story writer Edgar Allan Poe. Angelenos, and those planning a visit to the City of Angels in the coming weeks, may mark the two-hundredth swing of Poe's pendulum by attending a performance of Nevermore, a one-man show now in a limited engagement at the Steve Allen Theater in Hollywood

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  2 20:23:40 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  2 18:32:33 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Holy Barbarians
Message-ID: <8CBFA43EBE4941B-DF8-B22B@webmail-m021.sysops.aol.com>


Through McGrath, the Coastliners consciously assimilated the influences of Hart Crane, Berthold Brecht, William Butler Yeats, Andre Breton and Rainer Maria Rilke ? and something called a poetry wheel which through its randomness taught the element of surprise in language and surrealism. Thus, our central concern was above all the craft of poetry geared to the socio-political concerns of the 50's.



Another important defining element was the introduction of mescaline and LSD (acid) in the mid-fifties



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2009/09/holy-barbarians-revisited.html
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  2 23:06:28 2009
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed Sep  2 21:15:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare's Sonnet 18... One More Time
In-Reply-To: <4A9EC592.1090805@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4A9EB22A.9030706@uiuc.edu> <4A9EC592.1090805@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <522171.14369.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Been reading all these sonnet 18 interpretations.  Some convincing, some interesting, some a bit too clever--especially in a poem in which there's not so much clever innuendo or double meaning.  In the end, I'm lining up with the simplest explanation: Time meaning the end of time, or forever.  Redundancy be damned.  Besides, the whole poem is a bit redundant in it's summery comparisons.

The easiest way to see it as I read it (and as most read it, I'd guess) is to put commas in to show the flow:

     When, in eternal lines, to Time thou grow'st.
or 
      When in [these] eternal lines to [the end of] Time thou grow'st.

The "eternal lines"--or poem, the written word, as being eternal--was a common Elizabethan convention.  And it worked, too.  (Well, it worked for Shakespeare or Spenser, that is--perhaps not so well for Ed the plow boy who wrote a sonnet and presented it to the house maid, Martha, who couldn't read.)

"Grow'st" follows the poem's earlier comparisons to summer: The subject will continue to "grow"--as do the darling buds in summer--because the subject lives in an "eternal summer."  It also works in contrast to death's "shade," since most things can't grow in shade.  The subject, not stunted by the shade of death, shall grow forever--because Shakespeare wrote the poem, not Ed the plow boy.

Straightforward yes, but so is the poem.  I can't attribute some fanciful explanation to one phrase in a poem that, everywhere else, is written in Elizabethan plain text.

JohnJ


      
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 12:19:36 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep  3 10:28:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rachel Loden
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909030919g46c6ae87v91ac8454ebe7805@mail.gmail.com>

Check these out, especially the one on Jacket by our own Big Tad:

"Tricky Schticks - Two Poets and Their American Wars," by Maureen Thorson in
Open Letters:

http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/issue/book-review-rachel-lodens-dick-dead-
kevin-prufers-national-anthem<http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/issue/book-review-rachel-lodens-dick-dead-kevin-prufers-national-anthem>

or if that URL's too long click on "Tricky Schticks" in the table of
contents here:

 http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/issue/

And "Beyond Boundaries," by Tad Richards, in Jacket:

http://jacketmagazine.com/38/r-loden-rb-richards.shtml

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 12:49:34 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep  3 10:58:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?The_epic=92s_extension_today=3A_be?=
	=?windows-1252?q?tween_expansion_and_extinction=2E?=
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909030949m344a5350xc5d72d03ce0c9ea@mail.gmail.com>

*The epic?s extension today: between expansion and extinction.*

*October 21st-23rd 2010, EA 741, Universit? Paul Val?ry, Montpellier,
France.*



?What has been lost (?) is the epic, or rather, the taste for the *poetic
continuum* such as once informed the epic vein of Romanticism? (C. Doumet).
[1]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftn1>How
much of a fact is that?



For, as ?a wandering path towards what must be an ancient skill? (S.
Bouquet),[2]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftn2>the
epic and the heroic continue to haunt the literary landscape in a wide
variety of fashions ranging from the ?fictions of globalization? (J.
Annesley)[3]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftn3>to
*The Lord of the Rings* craze and to the recent new translations of
foundational texts of the genre ? Yusef Komunyaka?s *Gilgamesh *(2006) and
Ciaran Carson?s *Inferno *(2002) and *The T?in* (2007)* *among them ?  as
well as the uninterrupted dialogue with heroic gestures being written by
contemporary poets.



Martinican writer Edouard Glissant in his *Faulkner, Mississippi *(1996) may
offer a possible gate of entry to the question of the relevance of the epic
when he observes that



?Today the only community with a cast entitling it to community-building is
the world-as-commune (?). The new *epos *originates in that community ? the
world-as-a-whole ? which is the only one that does not conceive of itself or
feels itself as such. It has been the office of the epic to be entrusted
with the expression of all communities. Epics of the ancient world and epics
of the nearer past did it through the exclusionary heroic, meant for times
when human communities were as much defined by ethnic and even genetic
boundaries as by the ?universal? dimension each one of them held. Epics for
the present and for the world that is to rise might do it through the
participative and inclusive heroic which could lead to the world-as-commune,
and in which nothing short of the ?universal? would be the finite and
infinite measure of all cultures and of all human kinds (?). All literatures
in the world are in attendance as all of them together are being introduced
to this new heroic in such a prodigiously diversified manner? and it is as
if the astounded face of the epic was looking at the gathering of all of us
again (?). To us, the grandiose heroic of excluding the other is nothing but
furbelows (?). The world-as-commune calls for that other epic, which
Faulkner adumbrated, the epic of the difficult
Relation.[4]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftn4>
?



Participants in the conference are invited to address the question of
whether or not the notions of ?the exclusionary heroic? and of the
?participative and inclusive heroic? are useful starting-points for a
renewed reflection on the heroic and the epic. Should one speak of the
expansion or even of the distension of the epic instead of the predicted
dilution of the heroic?



The epic has always borne some relation to a wish to ?say it all?, say the
?whole? and thereby alter the perception of it by fitting it into a form. It
has therefore often been wedded to the political.



Is this still the case? For instance, have works ? both long and short ?
with epic features published since 1989 shown an inclination to challenge
globalization or on the contrary have they been subtly accompanying it? Do
such texts ?think globally,? with the Earth or with the economist?s or
workers? world in mind? Or do they enhance local or minority identity? Or
can they do both things at once, i.e., promote difference while drawing up a
sustainable larger picture? Or is *Worstward Ho* the main direction pointed
to? In short, what road maps have been in the writing ? or are there no
longer roads for epics to forge?



And whence does Glissant?s distinction stem? In some ways, it echoes Simone
Weil?s famous ?*The Iliad *or the Poem of Force.? Does the non-bellicose
epic have a future? Has there been any offspring for *The Iliad *as Weil saw
it?



With the United States? influence across the world, American literary
production of the past two decades makes a choice field for scrutinizing the
treatment of the conflicting priorities within aesthetic forms aiming at the
global reorganization outlined above.



However, it is equally obvious that this generic and political reexamination
of the relation between the heroic and the building of worlds cannot be
confined solely to the field of American literature as this would defeat the
purpose of this conference, whose intention it is to consider a more global
epic possibility. So both English-language literature specialists and
comparatists are welcome to submit: this is primarily an invitation to
examine American works with epic features of the past twenty years ? in the
field of poetry and also of literature as a whole ? but this conference also
wishes to rekindle ?Relation? and be an occasion for taking a retrospective
look at older works which may shed light on more recent uses of the heroic
and the epic ? from *Piers Plowman *to Claude Simon?s novels. The
comparative approach is of course irreplaceable to attain even a tentative
panoramic view of the genre.



Submissions ? 300 words in length ? should be sent to Vincent Dussol by
November 30th 2009 at vincent.dussol@univ-montp3.fr

The languages of the conference will be English and French.

A volume of the articles selected by the reading committee will be
published.



------------------------------

[1]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftnref1>Christian
Doumet.
*Faut-il comprendre la po?sie ? *Paris : Klincksieck, 2004.

[2]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftnref2>St?phane
Bouquet.
*Un peuple*. Paris : Champ Vallon, 2007.

[3]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftnref3>?James
Annesley.  ?
?Thigh bone connected to the hip bone? : Don DeLillo?s *Underworld *and the
fictions of Globalization ?. *Amerikastudien*. 47.1.2002. 85-95.

[4]<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Anny/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/g9w0jtey.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=1363222647#_ftnref4>My
translation.


------------------------------



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep  3 12:50:37 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep  3 10:59:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rays outfielder Fernando Perez featured in Poetry
	magazine
In-Reply-To: <cm.dtijdl.xztugj.r@createsend3.com>
References: <cm.dtijdl.xztugj.r@createsend3.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFACDCBD72925-6B84-122B5@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>

Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 12:09 pm
Subject: For Immediate Release: Tampa Bay Rays outfielder Fernando Perez featured in Poetry magazine




 







FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 3, 2009

Fernando Perez Talks Poetry

Major League Baseball player reflects on the role of poetry in his life

CHICAGO ? The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is pleased to announce that Tampa Bay Rays outfielder Fernando Perez is featured in the September issue of Poetry magazine. As a contributor to Poetry, Perez joins the varied ranks of non-poets?including singer Neko Case, actor Alfred Molina, psychiatry professor Kay Redfield Jamison, and Vanity Fair columnist Christopher Hitchens?who have recently written for the magazine about the place of poetry in their lives.

Perez is a graduate of Columbia University in New York City, where he received a degree in American studies and completed the creative writing program. He joined the Tampa Bay Rays in 2008 and was one of six Ivy Leaguers to be appointed to the roster of Major League Baseball teams in the 2009 season. A longtime reader of contemporary poetry, Perez has named Robert Creeley and John Ashbery among his favorite poets.

Perez says he turns to poetry when he's "after displacement, contrast" from the game of baseball. "The thick wilderness," he continues, "of, say, late Ashbery can wrangle with the narrowness of competition."

Created with the belief that not only should poetry have a wider audience, but the range of people writing=2
0about poetry should be diverse, Poetry's occasional special feature The View from Here this month includes short essays from Brenda Starr writer Mary Schmich and writer William T. Vollmann. Vollmann, like Perez, reminds readers of poetry?s role in opening minds.

With their distinct backgrounds, contributors to this month?s issue of Poetry also connect to poetry in individual ways. They may see poetry as an aid in professional life, as chief judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit Dennis Jacobs states: "My long interest in poetry has yielded a respect for the language that people should employ when they undertake to speak the law." Or they may regard it, as music and comic book critic Douglas Wolk says, "as a sort of chisel to break my brain open." Alternatively, poetry can be greeted as a departure from the daily grind.

Poetry's September issue also includes new poems by Samuel Menashe, Belle Randall, Don Paterson, Lucia Perillo, Atsuro Riley, Desir?e Alvarez, Sandra McPherson, Spencer Reece, Malachi Black, and Dan Beachy-Quick, as well as prose and criticism by Ange Mlinko and Michael Hofmann.

* * *


About Poetry Magazine
Founded in Chicago by Harriet Monroe in 1912, Poetry is the oldest monthly devoted to verse in the English-speaking world. Harriet Monroe's "Open Door" policy, set forth in volume 1 of the magazine, remains the most succinct statement of Poetry's mission: to print the best poetry written today, in whatever style, genre, or approach. The magazine established20its reputation early by publishing the first important poems of T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Marianne Moore, Wallace Stevens, H.D., William Carlos Williams, Carl Sandburg, and other now-classic authors. In succeeding decades it has presented?often for the first time?works by virtually every significant poet of the 20th century.






FORWARD TO A FRIEND ?

CONTACT
POETRY FOUNDATION
444 North Michigan Avenue
Chicago, IL 60611
312.787.7070
Media Contact: Anne Halsey



ABOUT THE POETRY FOUNDATION

The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine and one of the largest literary organizations in the world, exists to discover and celebrate the best poetry and to place it before the largest possible audience. The Poetry Foundation seeks to be a leader in shaping a receptive climate for poetry by developing new audiences, creating new avenues for delivery, and encouraging new kinds of poetry through innovative literary prizes and programs. For more information, please visit poetryfoundation.org.
?








You have received this newsletter because you submitted your e-mail address at http://www.poetryfoundation.org. You may unsubscribe or change your newsletter subscription preferences at any time.

Copyright ? 2009 Poetry Foundation 

 
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu Sep  3 13:05:45 2009
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu Sep  3 11:14:26 2009
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_The_epic=92s_extension_today=3A_betwe?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?en_expansion_and_extinction=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909030949m344a5350xc5d72d03ce0c9ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909030949m344a5350xc5d72d03ce0c9ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d116fbae0909031005w44ca19e5pce11f8d9a58785be@mail.gmail.com>

Do folks really miss the rearers of Robert Graves's Abulam yams?

--Uche

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> *The epic?s extension today: between expansion and extinction.*
>
> *October 21st-23rd 2010, EA 741, Universit? Paul Val?ry, Montpellier,
> France.*
>
>
>
> ?What has been lost (?) is the epic, or rather, the taste for the *poetic
> continuum* such as once informed the epic vein of Romanticism? (C.
> Doumet).[1] How much of a fact is that?
>
>
>
> For, as ?a wandering path towards what must be an ancient skill? (S.
> Bouquet),[2] the epic and the heroic continue to haunt the literary
> landscape in a wide variety of fashions ranging from the ?fictions of
> globalization? (J. Annesley)[3] to *The Lord of the Rings* craze and to
> the recent new translations of foundational texts of the genre ? Yusef
> Komunyaka?s *Gilgamesh *(2006) and Ciaran Carson?s *Inferno *(2002) and *The
> T?in* (2007)* *among them ?  as well as the uninterrupted dialogue with
> heroic gestures being written by contemporary poets.
>
>
>
> Martinican writer Edouard Glissant in his *Faulkner, Mississippi *(1996)
> may offer a possible gate of entry to the question of the relevance of the
> epic when he observes that
>
>
>
> ?Today the only community with a cast entitling it to community-building is
> the world-as-commune (?). The new *epos *originates in that community ?
> the world-as-a-whole ? which is the only one that does not conceive of
> itself or feels itself as such. It has been the office of the epic to be
> entrusted with the expression of all communities. Epics of the ancient world
> and epics of the nearer past did it through the exclusionary heroic, meant
> for times when human communities were as much defined by ethnic and even
> genetic boundaries as by the ?universal? dimension each one of them held.
> Epics for the present and for the world that is to rise might do it through
> the participative and inclusive heroic which could lead to the
> world-as-commune, and in which nothing short of the ?universal? would be the
> finite and infinite measure of all cultures and of all human kinds (?). All
> literatures in the world are in attendance as all of them together are being
> introduced to this new heroic in such a prodigiously diversified manner? and
> it is as if the astounded face of the epic was looking at the gathering of
> all of us again (?). To us, the grandiose heroic of excluding the other is
> nothing but furbelows (?). The world-as-commune calls for that other epic,
> which Faulkner adumbrated, the epic of the difficult Relation.[4]?
>
>
>
> Participants in the conference are invited to address the question of
> whether or not the notions of ?the exclusionary heroic? and of the
> ?participative and inclusive heroic? are useful starting-points for a
> renewed reflection on the heroic and the epic. Should one speak of the
> expansion or even of the distension of the epic instead of the predicted
> dilution of the heroic?
>
>
>
> The epic has always borne some relation to a wish to ?say it all?, say the
> ?whole? and thereby alter the perception of it by fitting it into a form. It
> has therefore often been wedded to the political.
>
>
>
> Is this still the case? For instance, have works ? both long and short ?
> with epic features published since 1989 shown an inclination to challenge
> globalization or on the contrary have they been subtly accompanying it? Do
> such texts ?think globally,? with the Earth or with the economist?s or
> workers? world in mind? Or do they enhance local or minority identity? Or
> can they do both things at once, i.e., promote difference while drawing up a
> sustainable larger picture? Or is *Worstward Ho* the main direction
> pointed to? In short, what road maps have been in the writing ? or are there
> no longer roads for epics to forge?
>
>
>
> And whence does Glissant?s distinction stem? In some ways, it echoes Simone
> Weil?s famous ?*The Iliad *or the Poem of Force.? Does the non-bellicose
> epic have a future? Has there been any offspring for *The Iliad *as Weil
> saw it?
>
>
>
> With the United States? influence across the world, American literary
> production of the past two decades makes a choice field for scrutinizing the
> treatment of the conflicting priorities within aesthetic forms aiming at the
> global reorganization outlined above.
>
>
>
> However, it is equally obvious that this generic and political
> reexamination of the relation between the heroic and the building of worlds
> cannot be confined solely to the field of American literature as this would
> defeat the purpose of this conference, whose intention it is to consider a
> more global epic possibility. So both English-language literature
> specialists and comparatists are welcome to submit: this is primarily an
> invitation to examine American works with epic features of the past twenty
> years ? in the field of poetry and also of literature as a whole ? but this
> conference also wishes to rekindle ?Relation? and be an occasion for taking
> a retrospective look at older works which may shed light on more recent uses
> of the heroic and the epic ? from *Piers Plowman *to Claude Simon?s
> novels. The comparative approach is of course irreplaceable to attain even a
> tentative panoramic view of the genre.
>
>
>
> Submissions ? 300 words in length ? should be sent to Vincent Dussol by
> November 30th 2009 at vincent.dussol@univ-montp3.fr
>
> The languages of the conference will be English and French.
>
> A volume of the articles selected by the reading committee will be
> published.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [1] Christian Doumet. *Faut-il comprendre la po?sie ? *Paris :
> Klincksieck, 2004.
>
> [2] St?phane Bouquet. *Un peuple*. Paris : Champ Vallon, 2007.
>
> [3] ?James Annesley.  ? ?Thigh bone connected to the hip bone? : Don
> DeLillo?s *Underworld *and the fictions of Globalization ?. *
> Amerikastudien*. 47.1.2002. 85-95.
>
> [4] My translation.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                       http://uche.ogbuji.net
Founding Partner, Zepheira        http://zepheira.com
Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/
Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche
Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji
Join me at Balisage:
* http://www.balisage.net/
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep  3 13:19:14 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep  3 11:28:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another look at Stevens' Selected by Longenbach
In-Reply-To: <8CBFAD154640A85-6B84-12887@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAD154640A85-6B84-12887@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFAD1CB7BD585-6B84-12951@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>



http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090914/longenbach

?

A Music of Austerity: The Poetry of Wallace Stevens By James Longenbach
This article appeared in the September 14, 2009 edition of The Nation.



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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 14:14:26 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep  3 12:23:04 2009
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_The_epic=92s_extension_today=3A_betwe?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?en_expansion_and_extinction=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <d116fbae0909031005w44ca19e5pce11f8d9a58785be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909030949m344a5350xc5d72d03ce0c9ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<d116fbae0909031005w44ca19e5pce11f8d9a58785be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909031114i3b0e1b01qd989d63e5ec4b737@mail.gmail.com>

? *chacun son go?t*...


On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 7:05 PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> wrote:

> Do folks really miss the rearers of Robert Graves's Abulam yams?
>
> --Uche
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *The epic?s extension today: between expansion and extinction.*
>>
>> *October 21st-23rd 2010, EA 741, Universit? Paul Val?ry, Montpellier,
>> France.*
>>
>>
>>
>> ?What has been lost (?) is the epic, or rather, the taste for the *poetic
>> continuum* such as once informed the epic vein of Romanticism? (C.
>> Doumet).[1] How much of a fact is that?
>>
>>
>>
>> For, as ?a wandering path towards what must be an ancient skill? (S.
>> Bouquet),[2] the epic and the heroic continue to haunt the literary
>> landscape in a wide variety of fashions ranging from the ?fictions of
>> globalization? (J. Annesley)[3] to *The Lord of the Rings* craze and to
>> the recent new translations of foundational texts of the genre ? Yusef
>> Komunyaka?s *Gilgamesh *(2006) and Ciaran Carson?s *Inferno *(2002) and *The
>> T?in* (2007)* *among them ?  as well as the uninterrupted dialogue with
>> heroic gestures being written by contemporary poets.
>>
>>
>>
>> Martinican writer Edouard Glissant in his *Faulkner, Mississippi *(1996)
>> may offer a possible gate of entry to the question of the relevance of the
>> epic when he observes that
>>
>>
>>
>> ?Today the only community with a cast entitling it to community-building
>> is the world-as-commune (?). The new *epos *originates in that community
>> ? the world-as-a-whole ? which is the only one that does not conceive of
>> itself or feels itself as such. It has been the office of the epic to be
>> entrusted with the expression of all communities. Epics of the ancient world
>> and epics of the nearer past did it through the exclusionary heroic, meant
>> for times when human communities were as much defined by ethnic and even
>> genetic boundaries as by the ?universal? dimension each one of them held.
>> Epics for the present and for the world that is to rise might do it through
>> the participative and inclusive heroic which could lead to the
>> world-as-commune, and in which nothing short of the ?universal? would be the
>> finite and infinite measure of all cultures and of all human kinds (?). All
>> literatures in the world are in attendance as all of them together are being
>> introduced to this new heroic in such a prodigiously diversified manner? and
>> it is as if the astounded face of the epic was looking at the gathering of
>> all of us again (?). To us, the grandiose heroic of excluding the other is
>> nothing but furbelows (?). The world-as-commune calls for that other epic,
>> which Faulkner adumbrated, the epic of the difficult Relation.[4]?
>>
>>
>>
>> Participants in the conference are invited to address the question of
>> whether or not the notions of ?the exclusionary heroic? and of the
>> ?participative and inclusive heroic? are useful starting-points for a
>> renewed reflection on the heroic and the epic. Should one speak of the
>> expansion or even of the distension of the epic instead of the predicted
>> dilution of the heroic?
>>
>>
>>
>> The epic has always borne some relation to a wish to ?say it all?, say the
>> ?whole? and thereby alter the perception of it by fitting it into a form. It
>> has therefore often been wedded to the political.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this still the case? For instance, have works ? both long and short ?
>> with epic features published since 1989 shown an inclination to challenge
>> globalization or on the contrary have they been subtly accompanying it? Do
>> such texts ?think globally,? with the Earth or with the economist?s or
>> workers? world in mind? Or do they enhance local or minority identity? Or
>> can they do both things at once, i.e., promote difference while drawing up a
>> sustainable larger picture? Or is *Worstward Ho* the main direction
>> pointed to? In short, what road maps have been in the writing ? or are there
>> no longer roads for epics to forge?
>>
>>
>>
>> And whence does Glissant?s distinction stem? In some ways, it echoes
>> Simone Weil?s famous ?*The Iliad *or the Poem of Force.? Does the
>> non-bellicose epic have a future? Has there been any offspring for *The
>> Iliad *as Weil saw it?
>>
>>
>>
>> With the United States? influence across the world, American literary
>> production of the past two decades makes a choice field for scrutinizing the
>> treatment of the conflicting priorities within aesthetic forms aiming at the
>> global reorganization outlined above.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, it is equally obvious that this generic and political
>> reexamination of the relation between the heroic and the building of worlds
>> cannot be confined solely to the field of American literature as this would
>> defeat the purpose of this conference, whose intention it is to consider a
>> more global epic possibility. So both English-language literature
>> specialists and comparatists are welcome to submit: this is primarily an
>> invitation to examine American works with epic features of the past twenty
>> years ? in the field of poetry and also of literature as a whole ? but this
>> conference also wishes to rekindle ?Relation? and be an occasion for taking
>> a retrospective look at older works which may shed light on more recent uses
>> of the heroic and the epic ? from *Piers Plowman *to Claude Simon?s
>> novels. The comparative approach is of course irreplaceable to attain even a
>> tentative panoramic view of the genre.
>>
>>
>>
>> Submissions ? 300 words in length ? should be sent to Vincent Dussol by
>> November 30th 2009 at vincent.dussol@univ-montp3.fr
>>
>> The languages of the conference will be English and French.
>>
>> A volume of the articles selected by the reading committee will be
>> published.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> [1] Christian Doumet. *Faut-il comprendre la po?sie ? *Paris :
>> Klincksieck, 2004.
>>
>> [2] St?phane Bouquet. *Un peuple*. Paris : Champ Vallon, 2007.
>>
>> [3] ?James Annesley.  ? ?Thigh bone connected to the hip bone? : Don
>> DeLillo?s *Underworld *and the fictions of Globalization ?. *
>> Amerikastudien*. 47.1.2002. 85-95.
>>
>> [4] My translation.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Uche Ogbuji                       http://uche.ogbuji.net
> Founding Partner, Zepheira        http://zepheira.com
> Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji
> Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/
> Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji
> Join me at Balisage:
> * http://www.balisage.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 14:31:43 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep  3 12:40:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mapping the Lost Highway: New Perspectives on David
	Lynch
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909031131p20a74716ued7866a99206f487@mail.gmail.com>

*Mapping the Lost Highway: New Perspectives on David Lynch*

*An International Conference at Tate Modern, London*

*30 October ? 1 November 2009*



One of American cinema?s most compelling and innovative directors, David
Lynch remains a major influence on contemporary art, film and culture. In
this landmark event, Tate Modern brings together leading artists, academics
and writers from around the world to offer a series of new perspectives on
Lynch?s films.



Artists and theorists will discuss Lynch?s work in a range of theoretical
and artistic contexts, including psychoanalysis, philosophy, prosthetics and
photography. Speakers will include the visual artists *Gregory
Crewdson*, *Daria
Martin*, and *Jane and Louise Wilson, and there will also** *be
contributions from the writers and academics *Parveen Adams,** **Sarah
Churchwell,** **Simon Critchley,** **Roger Luckhurst,** **Tom McCarthy,** *
and* **Jamieson Webster.* A specially commissioned video interview with
Lynch himself will also be screened, and an accompanying film programme will
take place at Tate Modern and the Birkbeck Cinema.



For more information, including booking details, please visit:
http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/symposia/19702.htm<http://www.tate.org..uk/modern/eventseducation/symposia/19702.htm>
.



*Organised by Tate Modern Public Programmes and Richard Martin (London
Consortium), in collaboration with the London Consortium and with additional
support from LCACE and British Association for American Studies.*



Richard Martin

PhD candidate, London Consortium
W: www.londonconsortium.com

E: rgmartin81@yahoo.co.uk<http://uk.mc272.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rgmartin81@yahoo.co.uk>
M: 07812 769108

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep  3 14:44:05 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep  3 12:53:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez and Lfishin in photo finish
Message-ID: <8CBFADDA613DF25-6B84-13D7D@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>




http://www.dustbooks.com/sweep.htm



Dustbooks survey and ranking of most published poets

2008-2009 Edition
Rank?? Poet ??(Entries) 

1 ? ? ? Virgil Suarez (36)
1 ? ? ? Lyn Lifshin (36)
2 ? ? ? Billy Collins (15)
2 ? ? ? Albert Goldbarth (15)
2 ? ? ? Bob Hicok (15) 
2 ? ? ? Gerald Locklin (15)
3 ? ? ? Jim Daniels (14) 
3 ? ? ? Denise Duhamel (14) 
3 ? ? ? Walter McDonald (14)
3 ? ? ? W. S. Merwin (14)
--

The frequency curve of statistical distribution continues to reflect the very populism of poetry in this age. The curve is a long, flat one with the poets named most often getting 36 entries apiece out of more than five thousand. As far as this directory and these responses are concerned, no single poet holds the national attention.




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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 15:50:32 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu Sep  3 13:59:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez and Lfishin in photo finish
In-Reply-To: <8CBFADDA613DF25-6B84-13D7D@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFADDA613DF25-6B84-13D7D@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909031250x41fed14ua3fcbae1266a9708@mail.gmail.com>

Aha! Married poets rule!

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:44 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.dustbooks.com/sweep.htm
>
> Dustbooks survey and ranking of most published poets
> 2008-2009 Edition
> *Rank   Poet   (Entries)*
> 1       Virgil Suarez (36)
> 1       Lyn Lifshin (36)
> 2       Billy Collins (15)
> 2       Albert Goldbarth (15)
> 2       Bob Hicok (15)
> 2       Gerald Locklin (15)
> 3       Jim Daniels (14)
> 3       Denise Duhamel (14)
> 3       Walter McDonald (14)
> 3       W. S. Merwin (14)
> --
> The frequency curve of statistical distribution continues to reflect the
> very populism of poetry in this age. The curve is a long, flat one with the
> poets named most often getting 36 entries apiece out of more than five
> thousand. As far as this directory and these responses are concerned, no
> single poet holds the national attention.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Sep  3 17:28:31 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu Sep  3 14:36:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez and Lfishin in photo finish
In-Reply-To: <8CBFADDA613DF25-6B84-13D7D@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFADDA613DF25-6B84-13D7D@webmail-d042.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA034FF.7010805@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>  
> http://www.dustbooks.com/sweep.htm
>  
> Dustbooks survey and ranking of most published poets
In the small press, I should add, for those not familiar with this list.

I'm surprised Richard Kostelanetz has finally dropped out of the top 
ten.  He was always right behind Lifshin.  May even have beaten her one 
year.

--Bob

> 2008-2009 Edition
> *Rank   Poet   (Entries)*
> 1       Virgil Suarez (36)
> 1       Lyn Lifshin (36)
> 2       Billy Collins (15)
> 2       Albert Goldbarth (15)
> 2       Bob Hicok (15)
> 2       Gerald Locklin (15)
> 3       Jim Daniels (14)
> 3       Denise Duhamel (14)
> 3       Walter McDonald (14)
> 3       W. S. Merwin (14)
> --
> The frequency curve of statistical distribution continues to reflect 
> the very populism of poetry in this age. The curve is a long, flat one 
> with the poets named most often getting 36 entries apiece out of more 
> than five thousand. As far as this directory and these responses are 
> concerned, no single poet holds the national attention.
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep  3 16:30:55 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep  3 14:40:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahlter the music critic
Message-ID: <8CBFAEC92E44DA2-3B14-D059@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>


http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/the-poet-as-sound-man/



August Kleinzahler is best known as a poet ? his ?Sleeping It Off in Rapid City? is one of the decade?s best collections ? but for years he?s also dabbled in music criticism, writing columns for the San Diego Reader and other publications.



He?s now gathered those essays into a paperback book, ?Music I-LXXIV? (Pressed Wafer, $17.50), 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep  3 16:41:13 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep  3 14:50:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
Message-ID: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>

http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Sep  3 21:05:28 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu Sep  3 18:13:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html
Thanks, Jim.  Good to know of a visual poetry critic, but he's out of 
Stanford, so I'm not sure yet how good he is.  He may well not be my 
kind of critic, at all.  Many at New-Poetry will be surprised to know 
it, but there are many kinds of visual poetry, some I like better than 
others.  There are also cliques, and I suspect he is in one opposed to 
mine.  But I'm downloading a chapter of his thesis.

--Bob

From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Thu Sep  3 20:51:36 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu Sep  3 19:00:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA06498.5000108@opus40.org>

How is this allowed to exist?

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  4 07:15:52 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri Sep  4 04:24:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <4AA06498.5000108@opus40.org>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
	<4AA06498.5000108@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4AA0F6E8.9010107@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
> How is this allowed to exist?
Hmmm, I believe that visual poetry doesn't get the recognition it 
deserves; therefore, I must believe that visual poetry is the equivalent 
of Judaism in Nazi Germany. 

--Bob



From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 09:31:51 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 07:40:47 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Australian poetry book tour via Mike Ladd's
	Poetica
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-546533-613085-2009.09.04-16.04.25--JforJames#aol.com@mail.abcnewsletters.net.au>
References: <LYRIS-546533-613085-2009.09.04-16.04.25--JforJames#aol.com@mail.abcnewsletters.net.au>
Message-ID: <8CBFB7B31EE65A4-2E44-19E9@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com>

Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2009 2:04 am
Subject: ABC Radio National Books and Drama newsletter, 4-12 September



ABC Radio National

POETICA
5/9/2009 15:00
10/9/2009 15:00
National Poetry Week
URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/stories/2009/2651379.htm
The first week of September is National Poetry Week and Mike Ladd takes us on a 
round-the-nation tour of some recently published books by Australian poets, both 
new and established. Though commercially small, the poetry publishing scene in 
Australia is vibrant, producing between 80 and 100 new editions each year. Some 
are from larger presses with fiction and non-fiction lists as well, like UQP and 
Wakefield, others are from poetry specialists like Five Islands, Pardalote, and 
John Leonard Press. The program features a selection of works including those by 
Alison Croggon, John Foulcher, Karen Knight, David Brooks, Bel Schenk, Susan 
Hampton, Marcella Polain, Les Wicks, Deb Westbury and many others. 



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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 11:32:12 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 09:40:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
	<4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>


That elaborate schematic of visual poetry on?visualpoety.net got me thinking of this magazine: 

diagram

http://thediagram.com/

If you explore their issues, you'll see they?have a section called 'schematics', which are fun to explore, and

the diagrams/schematics function as a kind of?'found vispo', dare I say?
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic



jforjames@aol.com wrote:?
> http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html?
Thanks, Jim. Good to know of a visual poetry critic, but he's out of Stanford, so I'm not sure yet how good he is. He may well not be my kind of critic, at all. Many at New-Poetry will be surprised to know it, but there are many kinds of visual poetry, some I like better than others. There are also cliques, and I suspect he is in one opposed to mine. But I'm downloading a chapter of his thesis.?
?
--Bob?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?

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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 12:02:56 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 10:11:47 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com><4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>
	<8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFB904D2626DF-3D90-3A27@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>

Then veering thru the byways of found visual poetic art, one might encounter this artist...
http://www.yukenteruyastudio.com/en/projects/

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames@aol.com
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2009 11:32 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic



That elaborate schematic of visual poetry on?visualpoety.net got me thinking of this magazine: 

diagram

http://thediagram.com/

If you explore their issues, you'll see they?have a section called 'schematics', which are fun to explore, and

the diagrams/schematics function as a kind of?'found vispo', dare I say?
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic



jforjames@aol.com wrote:?
> http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html?
Thanks, Jim. Good to know of a visual poetry critic, but he's out of Stanford, so I'm not sure yet how good he is. He may well not be my kind of critic, at all. Many at New-Poetry will be surprised to know it, but there are many kinds of visual poetry, some I like better than others. There are also cliques, and I suspect he is in one opposed to mine. But I'm downloading a chapter of his thesis.?
?
--Bob?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 13:14:29 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Fri Sep  4 11:22:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Digital Artifact: Issue Three
In-Reply-To: <4463ad5b0909040711x68bb506cm4166c5c58537c771@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4463ad5b0909040711x68bb506cm4166c5c58537c771@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909041014m2b1d722k48fc402da984ddfd@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Readers,

We the editors of Digital Artifact, are delighted to announce the launch of
our third issue, "We Made This For You Out of Nothing."

digitalartifactmagazine.com/issue3

Works by twenty-eight writers and artists take up the problem of how to make
art, and make meaning, in a time of scarcity. The fictions, videos, audio
pieces, and visual works explore ways to make meaning and tell stories in
the midst of the worst global recession since the Great Depression. As many
artists struggle with financial precarity, is it possible to make more out
of less and find inspiration in shared or salvaged materials? Can there be a
productive relationship between economic anxiety, uncertainty and the
ephemeral impulses that give rise to our work?

Including work by: Ida Acton | Cesar Alvarez | Judith Jordan | Ariel
Goldberg | Jeremy Krane | Miranda Mellis | Christian Nagler | Matt L. Rohrer
| Jacob Evans | Sunita Prasad | Rebecca Alexander | Lily Baldwin | Dillon de
Give | Craig Goodworth | Monica Regan | Celia Rowlson-Hall | Bruno Dicolla |
Jesse Nathan | Tucker Nichols | Brent Armendinger | Catherine Daly | Mary
Burger | Zo? McCloskey | Gregory Turner | Matthew Alexander | Adrian
Alexander | Isaiah Alexander | John Biando

digitalartifactmagazine.com
digitalartifactmagazine.blogspot.com
digitalartifactmagazine@gmail.com



-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 15:07:21 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 13:16:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] litmag watch: CUE journal
Message-ID: <8CBFBAA103FD74F-1BF0-5B74@webmail-m100.sysops.aol.com>

http://cuejournal.com/
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:03:32 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep  4 14:12:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] litmag watch: CUE journal
In-Reply-To: <8CBFBAA103FD74F-1BF0-5B74@webmail-m100.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFBAA103FD74F-1BF0-5B74@webmail-m100.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909041303m7cd24d7ble2929d4a5af4d3b5@mail.gmail.com>

very nice, it takes some time to download.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:07 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> http://cuejournal.com/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:04:47 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep  4 14:13:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909041304g41882845q92362b5b10ede320@mail.gmail.com>

Worth opening this .pdf:
http://visualpoetics.net/wentheory.html



On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:41 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> http://visualpoetics.net/visualpoetry.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Fri Sep  4 16:42:13 2009
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Fri Sep  4 14:50:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisville Conference CFP
Message-ID: <4AA14361.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>

Last call for proposals for the thirty-eighth annual Louisville Conference on Literature & Culture since 1900, to be held at the University of Louisville, February 18-20, 2010.  Deadline is Sept. 15, 2009, though there's a little wiggle room on that if you get in touch with me. This year's featured speakers are Michael Davidson, Helena Maria Viramontes, Mary Jo Bang, and Rita Felski.  http://www.thelouisvilleconference.com/ for further details.

Alan Golding



From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  4 17:03:03 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Fri Sep  4 15:11:30 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Georgia Book Festival - This Weekend!
Message-ID: <179487.775.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


Atlanta Journal-Constitution Decatur Book Festival
4 ? 6 September 2009 | Downtown | Atlanta, GA
http://www.decaturbookfestival.com/2009/index.php

_______




Amy's Alias

http://amyking.org/


      
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  4 18:12:09 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri Sep  4 15:20:53 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com><4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>
	<8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA190B9.2040506@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> That elaborate schematic of visual poetry on visualpoety.net got me 
> thinking of this magazine:
> diagram
> http://thediagram.com/
> If you explore their issues, you'll see they have a section called 
> 'schematics', which are fun to explore, and
> the diagrams/schematics function as a kind of 'found vispo', dare I say?
> Finnegan
Some does, but most is just labeled visimagery, in my taxonomy.  But 
not, I have to admit, in that of most people calling themselves visual 
poets; for them, almost anything that even hints at language, even 
without any explicit linguistic elements such as letters, is visual 
poetry.  I myself love the possibilities for art in the use of 
schematics, diagrams, graphs, maps, grids, etc.  Am currently messing 
around with one using the tic tac toe diagram.  

As for the Japanese poet with the squares, he does nice work, but many 
others are doing this kind of thing, notably Scott Helmes.  (I used a 
set of such squares in one of my mathemaku, too--"Mathemaku for (none 
other than) Scott Helmes.)  Scott and I have had interesting discussions 
as to whether such works are visual poetry, he saying yes, I no.  (In 
most cases.)  Generally, the verbal element is missing or too minor to 
make the art involved any kind of poetry--just as street ads in an 
urbanscape don't make the latter visual poetry.

Such discussions (about what's a visual poem, what's not) are like 
pinhead-angel discussions to the intellectually comatose, but for those 
involved they sensitize one to degrees of verbality and visuality, and 
the nuances each can be used to express, just as pinhead-angel 
discussions open one to sensitivity to the entire continuum of 
magnitudes, and quantities, and what reality most fundamentally is.  
But, hey, go with passive wonder--it's way easier than active understanding,

--Bob

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 17:34:49 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep  4 15:43:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication announcement: *Diasporic Avant-Gardes*
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909041434k54f8c98bjca59bb665776a8ac@mail.gmail.com>

*Publication announcement: *Diasporic Avant-Gardes**

DIASPORIC AVANT-GARDES
Experimental Poetics and Cultural Displacement
Edited by Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten

Published by Palgrave Macmillan
288 pages / $90.00 - Hardcover (0-230-61629-1)
http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/product.aspx?isbn=0230616291

20% discount flyer available here:
http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/diasporic%20avant-gardes.pdf

Ask your librarian to order Diasporic Avant-Gardes!


Diasporic Avant-Gardes draws into dialogue two
differing traditions of poetic practice: the
diasporic and the avant-garde.  This
interdisciplinary collection examines the
unacknowledged affinities (and crucial
differences) between avant-garde and diasporic
formal strategies and social formations. The
essays foreground the creation of experimental
forms and investigate the specific contexts of
cultural displacement and language use that inform their poetics.


Praise for Diasporic Avant-Gardes

?This is an important, indeed a crucial project.
It will constitute a formative contribution to
the discussion of an expanded field of
contemporary poetics. The claim the essays make,
quite properly, amounts less to a positivity than
a negative solidarity that respects the radical
particularity of writers and/or movements while
noticing their common refusal of traditional
forms and identity politics. The aim in bringing
these essays together is to create dialogues
across difference that expose, nonetheless,
important strategic similarities among a variety
of radical experimental writings.??Adalaide
Morris, John C. Gerber Professor of English, University of Iowa

?Diasporic Avant Gardes opens up innovative ways
of reading diasporic poetic texts in terms of
avant garde experimentation and goes even further
to suggest that avant gardes need to be read
diasporically.  It demonstrates convincingly the
importance of avant garde negation to the
earliest poetic experiments in the diaspora as
well as the close relation of avant garde
movements to the dislocations of European
colonization and global displacement. The result
is a superb collection of essays that
imaginatively merges the experimental and the
theoretical, a globalized imagination and
critical daring.??J. Michael Dash, Professor of French, New York University

?This is an important book, among the best
critical anthologies I've read in recent years.
It is welcome proof that border crossing, of any
kind, is a creative act. In rich, varied ways the
contributors find form and feeling in what is
articulated along the border lines. Most
impressively, this volume itself, like the
subject it describes, functions as a contact
zone, where innovation as much as alienation
perform their dizzying, difficult dance.??Amitava
Kumar, author of Passport Photos

?The thirteen splendid essays collected in this
volume delineate how surprising and unexpected
affinities link together diasporic and
avant-garde poetry: art forms that have emerged
from very different social locations and seem to
have incommensurable and irreconcilable goals.
Noland and Watten?s generative collection enables
us to see that diasporic and avant garde poets
alike view domination, displacement, and
dispersal as central aspects of modernity, that
both groups resort to formal experimentation in
response to social instability.  By comparing and
contrasting the similar (although not identical)
ways that these poets artfully render the foreign
as familiar and the familiar as foreign,
Diasporic Avant Gardes shows how the people of
the world can be strangely united by the very
things that seem to divide us.??George Lipsitz,
author of Footsteps in the Dark and Time
Passages


Table of contents

* Introduction--Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten
* Aim? C?saire and the Syntax of Influence--Brent Edwards
* Alan Sondheim?s Internet Diaspora--Maria Damon
* Remediation and Diaspora: Kamau Brathwaite?s Video-Style--Carrie Noland
* Re-opening a Poetics of Re-openings (a.k.a.
?Naked Strategic Partners?)--Rodrigo Toscano
* On the Outskirts of Form: Cosmopoetics in the
Shadow of NAFTA--Michael Davidson
* Franco Luambo Makiadi?s Universalism and
Avant-Garde Particularity--Barrett Watten
* ah noh musik dat: Speech in the Discourse of Nationalism--Mark McMorris
* On the Nomadic Circulation of Contemporary
Poetics Between Europe, North America, and the Maghreb--Pierre Joris
* Diaspora and the Avant-Garde in Contemporary
Black British Poetry--Lauri Ramey
* Something Nation: Radical Spaces of Performance
in Linton Kwesi Johnson and cris cheek--Carla Harryman
* From Spanglish to Glossolalia: Edwin Torres's
Nuyo-Futurist Utopia--Urayo?n Noel
* From Bass Cathedral--Nathaniel Mackey
* From Vaduz [Performance Poem]--Bernard Heidsieck


Author Bios

Carrie Noland is a Professor of French and
Comparative Literature at the University of
California, Irvine. She is the author of Poetry
at Stake: Lyric Aesthetics and the Challenge of
Technology and Agency and Embodiment: Performing Gestures/Producing Culture.

Barrett Watten is a Professor of English at Wayne
State University. He is a language-centered poet
and critic of modernist and postmodern cultures
and his study, The Constructivist Moment: From
Material Text to Cultural Poetics, received the
Ren? Wellek Prize in 2004. He is the author of
the poetry collections Frame: 1971-1990, Bad
History, and Progress/Under Erasure.

For further information, contact the publishers or
Barrett Watten <b.watten@wayne.edu>
Carrie Noland <cjnoland@uci.edu>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From halvard at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 17:40:17 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri Sep  4 15:48:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication announcement: *Diasporic Avant-Gardes*
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909041434k54f8c98bjca59bb665776a8ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909041434k54f8c98bjca59bb665776a8ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909041440n3a58ee11hcf6672c4379d1399@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, right. $90 - 20% discount = $72 = library readers only
(when the economy improves).

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> *Publication announcement: *Diasporic Avant-Gardes**
>
> DIASPORIC AVANT-GARDES
> Experimental Poetics and Cultural Displacement
> Edited by Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten
>
> Published by Palgrave Macmillan
> 288 pages / $90.00 - Hardcover (0-230-61629-1)
> http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/product.aspx?isbn=0230616291
>
> 20% discount flyer available here:
>
> http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/diasporic%20avant-gardes.pdf
>
> Ask your librarian to order Diasporic Avant-Gardes!
>
>
> Diasporic Avant-Gardes draws into dialogue two
> differing traditions of poetic practice: the
> diasporic and the avant-garde.  This
> interdisciplinary collection examines the
> unacknowledged affinities (and crucial
> differences) between avant-garde and diasporic
> formal strategies and social formations. The
> essays foreground the creation of experimental
> forms and investigate the specific contexts of
> cultural displacement and language use that inform their poetics.
>
>
> Praise for Diasporic Avant-Gardes
>
> ?This is an important, indeed a crucial project.
> It will constitute a formative contribution to
> the discussion of an expanded field of
> contemporary poetics. The claim the essays make,
> quite properly, amounts less to a positivity than
> a negative solidarity that respects the radical
> particularity of writers and/or movements while
> noticing their common refusal of traditional
> forms and identity politics. The aim in bringing
> these essays together is to create dialogues
> across difference that expose, nonetheless,
> important strategic similarities among a variety
> of radical experimental writings.??Adalaide
> Morris, John C. Gerber Professor of English, University of Iowa
>
> ?Diasporic Avant Gardes opens up innovative ways
> of reading diasporic poetic texts in terms of
> avant garde experimentation and goes even further
> to suggest that avant gardes need to be read
> diasporically.  It demonstrates convincingly the
> importance of avant garde negation to the
> earliest poetic experiments in the diaspora as
> well as the close relation of avant garde
> movements to the dislocations of European
> colonization and global displacement. The result
> is a superb collection of essays that
> imaginatively merges the experimental and the
> theoretical, a globalized imagination and
> critical daring.??J. Michael Dash, Professor of French, New York University
>
> ?This is an important book, among the best
> critical anthologies I've read in recent years.
> It is welcome proof that border crossing, of any
> kind, is a creative act. In rich, varied ways the
> contributors find form and feeling in what is
> articulated along the border lines. Most
> impressively, this volume itself, like the
> subject it describes, functions as a contact
> zone, where innovation as much as alienation
> perform their dizzying, difficult dance.??Amitava
> Kumar, author of Passport Photos
>
> ?The thirteen splendid essays collected in this
> volume delineate how surprising and unexpected
> affinities link together diasporic and
> avant-garde poetry: art forms that have emerged
> from very different social locations and seem to
> have incommensurable and irreconcilable goals.
> Noland and Watten?s generative collection enables
> us to see that diasporic and avant garde poets
> alike view domination, displacement, and
> dispersal as central aspects of modernity, that
> both groups resort to formal experimentation in
> response to social instability.  By comparing and
> contrasting the similar (although not identical)
> ways that these poets artfully render the foreign
> as familiar and the familiar as foreign,
> Diasporic Avant Gardes shows how the people of
> the world can be strangely united by the very
> things that seem to divide us.??George Lipsitz,
> author of Footsteps in the Dark and Time
> Passages
>
>
> Table of contents
>
> * Introduction--Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten
> * Aim? C?saire and the Syntax of Influence--Brent Edwards
> * Alan Sondheim?s Internet Diaspora--Maria Damon
> * Remediation and Diaspora: Kamau Brathwaite?s Video-Style--Carrie Noland
> * Re-opening a Poetics of Re-openings (a.k.a.
> ?Naked Strategic Partners?)--Rodrigo Toscano
> * On the Outskirts of Form: Cosmopoetics in the
> Shadow of NAFTA--Michael Davidson
> * Franco Luambo Makiadi?s Universalism and
> Avant-Garde Particularity--Barrett Watten
> * ah noh musik dat: Speech in the Discourse of Nationalism--Mark McMorris
> * On the Nomadic Circulation of Contemporary
> Poetics Between Europe, North America, and the Maghreb--Pierre Joris
> * Diaspora and the Avant-Garde in Contemporary
> Black British Poetry--Lauri Ramey
> * Something Nation: Radical Spaces of Performance
> in Linton Kwesi Johnson and cris cheek--Carla Harryman
> * From Spanglish to Glossolalia: Edwin Torres's
> Nuyo-Futurist Utopia--Urayo?n Noel
> * From Bass Cathedral--Nathaniel Mackey
> * From Vaduz [Performance Poem]--Bernard Heidsieck
>
>
> Author Bios
>
> Carrie Noland is a Professor of French and
> Comparative Literature at the University of
> California, Irvine. She is the author of Poetry
> at Stake: Lyric Aesthetics and the Challenge of
> Technology and Agency and Embodiment: Performing Gestures/Producing
> Culture.
>
> Barrett Watten is a Professor of English at Wayne
> State University. He is a language-centered poet
> and critic of modernist and postmodern cultures
> and his study, The Constructivist Moment: From
> Material Text to Cultural Poetics, received the
> Ren? Wellek Prize in 2004. He is the author of
> the poetry collections Frame: 1971-1990, Bad
> History, and Progress/Under Erasure.
>
> For further information, contact the publishers or
> Barrett Watten <b.watten@wayne.edu>
> Carrie Noland <cjnoland@uci.edu>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 18:34:34 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 16:43:43 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wendy Cope Q&A
Message-ID: <8CBFBC70325A556-2B64-7F58@webmail-m064.sysops.aol.com>


Profile: Wendy Cope
By Stuart Walton



Wendy Cope can lay claim to one of the literary world?s rarer achievements, in being a poet whose name is known to a significant swathe of the general public. Born in Kent in 1945, she taught in primary education for the better part of 20 years, during which she became arts and reviews editor on the Inner London Education Authority magazine, Contact. She became a freelance writer in 1986, and was for a spell television critic on the Spectator.



Her poetry collections include Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis (1986), for which she won the Cholmondeley Award, Serious Concerns (1992), If I Don?t Know (2001) and, most recently, Two Cures for Love (2008). She has also edited three poetry anthologies, as well as the Faber Book of Bedtime Stories (1999), and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature.


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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 18:35:27 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 16:44:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wendy Cope Q&A w/ URL
In-Reply-To: <8CBFBC70325A556-2B64-7F58@webmail-m064.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFBC70325A556-2B64-7F58@webmail-m064.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFBC722C2E856-2B64-7F70@webmail-m064.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.creative-choices.co.uk/knowledge/inside-story/literature/profile-wendy-cope



Profile: Wendy Cope
By Stuart Walton

?

Wendy Cope can lay claim to one of the literary world?s rarer achievements, in being a poet whose name is known to a significant swathe of the general public. Born in Kent in 1945, she taught in primary education for the better part of 20 years, during which she became arts and reviews editor on the Inner London Education Authority magazine, Contact. She became a freelance writer in 1986, and was for a spell television critic on the Spectator.

?

Her poetry collections include Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis (1986), for which she won the Cholmondeley Award, Serious Concerns (1992), If I Don?t Know (2001) and, most recently, Two Cures for Love (2008). She has also edited three poetry anthologies, as well as the Faber Book of Bedtime Stories (1999), and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature.

?

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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 19:08:02 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 17:16:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] cold front
Message-ID: <8CBFBCBAFC93F5D-394C-8137@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com>


A worthwhile site I just ran across...

http://coldfrontmag.com/
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From TNLK7768 at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 19:35:04 2009
From: TNLK7768 at aol.com (TNLK7768@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep  4 17:43:50 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication announcement: *Diasporic Avant-Gardes*
Message-ID: <c27.68ed1d76.37d2fe28@aol.com>

yes or no so we can walk to save a lot
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/09 5:35:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini@gmail.com writes:

Publication announcement: *Diasporic  Avant-Gardes*


DIASPORIC AVANT-GARDES
Experimental Poetics and Cultural  Displacement
Edited by Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten


Published by Palgrave Macmillan
288 pages / $90.00 - Hardcover  (0-230-61629-1)
_http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/product.aspx?isbn=0230616291_ 
(http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/product.aspx?isbn=0230616291) 


20% discount flyer available here:
_http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/diasporic%20avant-garde
s.pdf_ 
(http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/diasporic%20avant-gardes.pdf) 


Ask your librarian to order Diasporic  Avant-Gardes!




Diasporic Avant-Gardes draws into dialogue  two 
differing traditions of poetic practice:  the 
diasporic and the avant-garde.   This 
interdisciplinary collection examines  the 
unacknowledged affinities (and  crucial 
differences) between avant-garde and  diasporic 
formal strategies and social formations.  The 
essays foreground the creation of  experimental 
forms and investigate the specific contexts  of 
cultural displacement and language use that inform their  poetics.




Praise for Diasporic Avant-Gardes


?This is an important, indeed a crucial  project. 
It will constitute a formative contribution  to 
the discussion of an expanded field  of 
contemporary poetics. The claim the essays  make, 
quite properly, amounts less to a positivity  than 
a negative solidarity that respects the  radical 
particularity of writers and/or movements  while 
noticing their common refusal of  traditional 
forms and identity politics. The aim in  bringing 
these essays together is to create  dialogues 
across difference that expose,  nonetheless, 
important strategic similarities among a  variety 
of radical experimental  writings.?&shy;Adalaide 
Morris, John C. Gerber Professor of English, University  of Iowa


?Diasporic Avant Gardes opens up innovative  ways 
of reading diasporic poetic texts in terms  of 
avant garde experimentation and goes even  further 
to suggest that avant gardes need to be  read 
diasporically.  It demonstrates convincingly  the 
importance of avant garde negation to  the 
earliest poetic experiments in the diaspora  as 
well as the close relation of avant  garde 
movements to the dislocations of  European 
colonization and global displacement. The  result 
is a superb collection of essays that 
imaginatively merges the experimental and  the 
theoretical, a globalized imagination  and 
critical daring.?&shy;J. Michael Dash, Professor of  French, New York 
University


?This is an important book, among the  best 
critical anthologies I've read in recent  years. 
It is welcome proof that border crossing, of  any 
kind, is a creative act. In rich, varied ways  the 
contributors find form and feeling in what  is 
articulated along the border lines.  Most 
impressively, this volume itself, like  the 
subject it describes, functions as a  contact 
zone, where innovation as much as  alienation 
perform their dizzying, difficult  dance.?&shy;Amitava 
Kumar, author of Passport Photos


?The thirteen splendid essays collected in  this 
volume delineate how surprising and  unexpected 
affinities link together diasporic  and 
avant-garde poetry: art forms that have  emerged 
from very different social locations and seem  to 
have incommensurable and irreconcilable  goals. 
Noland and Watten?s generative collection  enables 
us to see that diasporic and avant garde  poets 
alike view domination, displacement,  and 
dispersal as central aspects of modernity,  that 
both groups resort to formal experimentation  in 
response to social instability.  By comparing  and 
contrasting the similar (although not  identical) 
ways that these poets artfully render the  foreign 
as familiar and the familiar as  foreign, 
Diasporic Avant Gardes shows how the people  of 
the world can be strangely united by the  very 
things that seem to divide us.?&shy;George  Lipsitz, 
author of Footsteps in the Dark and  Time 
Passages




Table of contents


* Introduction--Carrie Noland and Barrett  Watten
* Aim? C?saire and the Syntax of Influence--Brent  Edwards
* Alan Sondheim?s Internet Diaspora--Maria  Damon
* Remediation and Diaspora: Kamau Brathwaite?s  Video-Style--Carrie Noland
* Re-opening a Poetics of Re-openings  (a.k.a. 
?Naked Strategic Partners?)--Rodrigo  Toscano
* On the Outskirts of Form: Cosmopoetics in  the 
Shadow of NAFTA--Michael Davidson
* Franco Luambo Makiadi?s Universalism  and 
Avant-Garde Particularity--Barrett Watten
* ah noh musik dat: Speech in the Discourse of  Nationalism--Mark McMorris
* On the Nomadic Circulation of  Contemporary 
Poetics Between Europe, North America, and the  Maghreb--Pierre Joris
* Diaspora and the Avant-Garde in  Contemporary 
Black British Poetry--Lauri Ramey
* Something Nation: Radical Spaces of  Performance 
in Linton Kwesi Johnson and cris cheek--Carla  Harryman
* From Spanglish to Glossolalia: Edwin  Torres's 
Nuyo-Futurist Utopia--Urayo?n Noel
* From Bass Cathedral--Nathaniel Mackey
* From Vaduz [Performance Poem]--Bernard  Heidsieck




Author Bios


Carrie Noland is a Professor of French  and 
Comparative Literature at the University  of 
California, Irvine. She is the author of  Poetry 
at Stake: Lyric Aesthetics and the Challenge  of 
Technology and Agency and Embodiment: Performing  Gestures/Producing 
Culture.


Barrett Watten is a Professor of English at  Wayne 
State University. He is a language-centered  poet 
and critic of modernist and postmodern  cultures 
and his study, The Constructivist Moment:  From 
Material Text to Cultural Poetics, received  the 
Ren? Wellek Prize in 2004. He is the author  of 
the poetry collections Frame: 1971-1990,  Bad 
History, and Progress/Under Erasure.


For further information, contact the publishers  or
Barrett Watten <_b.watten@wayne.edu_ (mailto:b.watten@wayne.edu) >
Carrie Noland <_cjnoland@uci.edu_ (mailto:cjnoland@uci.edu) >


--  
Anny Ballardini
_http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/_ (http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/) 
_http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome_ 
(http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome) 
_http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078_ (http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078) 
_http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html_ 
(http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html) 
I  Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
star!  
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot  ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae  ?
Giovenale



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing  list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 13:06:56 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat Sep  5 11:15:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's kind of critic
In-Reply-To: <4AA190B9.2040506@nut-n-but.net>
References: <8CBFAEE033BB824-3B14-D288@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>
	<4AA067D8.2040607@nut-n-but.net>
	<8CBFB8C022E179F-3D90-336F@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>
	<4AA190B9.2040506@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909051006t4902fa9eo18e4f8cea190cd80@mail.gmail.com>

Just stolen from a twitterer:
?I am interested in ideas, not merely in visual products? Marcel Duchamp


On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>
>> That elaborate schematic of visual poetry on visualpoety.net got me
>> thinking of this magazine:
>> diagram
>> http://thediagram.com/
>> If you explore their issues, you'll see they have a section called
>> 'schematics', which are fun to explore, and
>> the diagrams/schematics function as a kind of 'found vispo', dare I say?
>> Finnegan
>>
> Some does, but most is just labeled visimagery, in my taxonomy.  But not, I
> have to admit, in that of most people calling themselves visual poets; for
> them, almost anything that even hints at language, even without any explicit
> linguistic elements such as letters, is visual poetry.  I myself love the
> possibilities for art in the use of schematics, diagrams, graphs, maps,
> grids, etc.  Am currently messing around with one using the tic tac toe
> diagram.
> As for the Japanese poet with the squares, he does nice work, but many
> others are doing this kind of thing, notably Scott Helmes.  (I used a set of
> such squares in one of my mathemaku, too--"Mathemaku for (none other than)
> Scott Helmes.)  Scott and I have had interesting discussions as to whether
> such works are visual poetry, he saying yes, I no.  (In most cases.)
>  Generally, the verbal element is missing or too minor to make the art
> involved any kind of poetry--just as street ads in an urbanscape don't make
> the latter visual poetry.
>
> Such discussions (about what's a visual poem, what's not) are like
> pinhead-angel discussions to the intellectually comatose, but for those
> involved they sensitize one to degrees of verbality and visuality, and the
> nuances each can be used to express, just as pinhead-angel discussions open
> one to sensitivity to the entire continuum of magnitudes, and quantities,
> and what reality most fundamentally is.  But, hey, go with passive
> wonder--it's way easier than active understanding,
>
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep  6 13:23:25 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun Sep  6 11:31:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Library
Message-ID: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>

Those annoying Apple folk have altered all the URLs on the sites they  
host, which means that my online Poetry Library now has a new  
address.  I'd deeply appreciate it if anyone who has links to it on  
their own blogs or home pages would update the URL as follows:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/About_Me.html

Also, my home page is now:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/

All the internal links should redirect properly, I think, if you start  
from one of the above.

The old pages still seem to be out there in the ether, incidentally,  
but they're no longer being updated, and at some point will go poof.

I do appreciate all the linkage, and as always am happy to look at new  
links I don't yet have, or to be notified of dead links.  I'm in the  
process of updating stuff now.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Sun Sep  6 14:01:43 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Sun Sep  6 12:09:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisville Conference CFP
In-Reply-To: <4AA14361.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>
References: <4AA14361.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909061101g25b43388gaa1d079984ddc502@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Alan, this looks intriguing---and a nicely open field.
Any clues as to what sorts of papers've been presented previously so as to
see which of our writings might fit?  What have you yourself presented at
the Louisville Conference on Literature & Culture [presumably since well
past 1900  ;-)]
Best,

Judy

2009/9/4 Alan C Golding <acgold01@louisville.edu>

> Last call for proposals for the thirty-eighth annual Louisville Conference
> on Literature & Culture since 1900, to be held at the University of
> Louisville, February 18-20, 2010.  Deadline is Sept. 15, 2009, though
> there's a little wiggle room on that if you get in touch with me. This
> year's featured speakers are Michael Davidson, Helena Maria Viramontes, Mary
> Jo Bang, and Rita Felski.  http://www.thelouisvilleconference.com/ for
> further details.
>
> Alan Golding
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 14:21:35 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep  6 12:29:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Library
In-Reply-To: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909061121n5c3d57detd61b8ad83e4736cb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

I did access the Corner to update your links, and it seems to me that the
following link is perfect:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

also, the two links you provide lead to the same page.
Or is it my pc?
Thanks, Anny

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:

> Those annoying Apple folk have altered all the URLs on the sites they host,
> which means that my online Poetry Library now has a new address.  I'd deeply
> appreciate it if anyone who has links to it on their own blogs or home pages
> would update the URL as follows:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/About_Me.html
>
> Also, my home page is now:
>
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>
> All the internal links should redirect properly, I think, if you start from
> one of the above.
>
> The old pages still seem to be out there in the ether, incidentally, but
> they're no longer being updated, and at some point will go poof.
>
> I do appreciate all the linkage, and as always am happy to look at new
> links I don't yet have, or to be notified of dead links.  I'm in the process
> of updating stuff now.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 14:29:42 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep  6 12:37:52 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Glossator
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909061129p5a75b089ke94a06f852159289@mail.gmail.com>

http://ojs.gc.cuny.edu/index.php/glossator/issue/current/showToc



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep  6 16:26:30 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun Sep  6 14:34:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Library
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909061121n5c3d57detd61b8ad83e4736cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4b65c2d70909061121n5c3d57detd61b8ad83e4736cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8467B229-BA49-4B46-A801-C3C3297739E1@ripon.edu>

Trust me, it's not the same page, though the old one is still "live"  
and looks almost identical at the moment.  But the new page already  
has a number of new links that the old page doesn't, and I can't  
access or revise the old pages anymore, so I'd really appreciate it if  
people would update their links according to the new addresses in my  
signature box below.  Eventually the old pages will go away.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 6, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I did access the Corner to update your links, and it seems to me  
> that the following link is perfect:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>
> also, the two links you provide lead to the same page.
> Or is it my pc?
> Thanks, Anny
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>  
> wrote:
> Those annoying Apple folk have altered all the URLs on the sites  
> they host, which means that my online Poetry Library now has a new  
> address.  I'd deeply appreciate it if anyone who has links to it on  
> their own blogs or home pages would update the URL as follows:
>
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/About_Me.html
>
> Also, my home page is now:
>
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>
> All the internal links should redirect properly, I think, if you  
> start from one of the above.
>
> The old pages still seem to be out there in the ether, incidentally,  
> but they're no longer being updated, and at some point will go poof.
>
> I do appreciate all the linkage, and as always am happy to look at  
> new links I don't yet have, or to be notified of dead links.  I'm in  
> the process of updating stuff now.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep  6 16:36:11 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun Sep  6 14:44:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry Library
In-Reply-To: <8467B229-BA49-4B46-A801-C3C3297739E1@ripon.edu>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4b65c2d70909061121n5c3d57detd61b8ad83e4736cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8467B229-BA49-4B46-A801-C3C3297739E1@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <66998239-DF6E-4C59-9321-D5369611B520@ripon.edu>

One final tweak:


I'm very sorry to say that I goofed in pasting in the Poetry Library  
URL before.  I gave the correct new URLs, but I somehow managed to  
paste in my home page twice.  You can get to the Poetry Library from  
the home page, but here's the direct link to it:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

Thanks, everyone.

David


========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 6, 2009, at 3:26 PM, David Graham wrote:

> Trust me, it's not the same page, though the old one is still "live"  
> and looks almost identical at the moment.  But the new page already  
> has a number of new links that the old page doesn't, and I can't  
> access or revise the old pages anymore, so I'd really appreciate it  
> if people would update their links according to the new addresses in  
> my signature box below.  Eventually the old pages will go away.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I did access the Corner to update your links, and it seems to me  
>> that the following link is perfect:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>>
>> also, the two links you provide lead to the same page.
>> Or is it my pc?
>> Thanks, Anny
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>  
>> wrote:
>> Those annoying Apple folk have altered all the URLs on the sites  
>> they host, which means that my online Poetry Library now has a new  
>> address.  I'd deeply appreciate it if anyone who has links to it on  
>> their own blogs or home pages would update the URL as follows:
>>
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/About_Me.html
>>
>> Also, my home page is now:
>>
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>>
>> All the internal links should redirect properly, I think, if you  
>> start from one of the above.
>>
>> The old pages still seem to be out there in the ether,  
>> incidentally, but they're no longer being updated, and at some  
>> point will go poof.
>>
>> I do appreciate all the linkage, and as always am happy to look at  
>> new links I don't yet have, or to be notified of dead links.  I'm  
>> in the process of updating stuff now.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
>> dancing star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 17:06:01 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun Sep  6 15:14:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Library
In-Reply-To: <8467B229-BA49-4B46-A801-C3C3297739E1@ripon.edu>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4b65c2d70909061121n5c3d57detd61b8ad83e4736cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8467B229-BA49-4B46-A801-C3C3297739E1@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909061406g334d9b0ib34cd476c758e77d@mail.gmail.com>

Same goes for me, David. The website link you currently have for
me (and Lynda) is the earthlink one, which is slowly migrating to
the google sites one below (second line below my name). It's
similar but increasingly (slowly increasingly) different.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 3:26 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:

> Trust me, it's not the same page, though the old one is still "live" and
> looks almost identical at the moment.  But the new page already has a number
> of new links that the old page doesn't, and I can't access or revise the old
> pages anymore, so I'd really appreciate it if people would update their
> links according to the new addresses in my signature box below.  Eventually
> the old pages will go away.
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> I did access the Corner to update your links, and it seems to me that the
> following link is perfect:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>
> also, the two links you provide lead to the same page.
> Or is it my pc?
> Thanks, Anny
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>> Those annoying Apple folk have altered all the URLs on the sites they
>> host, which means that my online Poetry Library now has a new address.  I'd
>> deeply appreciate it if anyone who has links to it on their own blogs or
>> home pages would update the URL as follows:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/About_Me.html
>>
>> Also, my home page is now:
>>
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>>
>> All the internal links should redirect properly, I think, if you start
>> from one of the above.
>>
>> The old pages still seem to be out there in the ether, incidentally, but
>> they're no longer being updated, and at some point will go poof.
>>
>> I do appreciate all the linkage, and as always am happy to look at new
>> links I don't yet have, or to be notified of dead links.  I'm in the process
>> of updating stuff now.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd@ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Sep  6 21:36:54 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun Sep  6 18:46:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>

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From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Sun Sep  6 21:44:22 2009
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Sun Sep  6 19:52:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisville conference
Message-ID: <4AA42C41.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>

Hi, Judy,

I know that this is the sort of useless injunction that can drive people crazy when they read it from, say, a magazine editor ("we try to publish the best work blah blah blah"), but it really does apply: if you're interested in coming, I'd invite you to send what *you* consider your best work.  Not all proposals are accepted, of course.  On the critical side of things, anything from 1900 to the present is fair game.  Generally I think people consider it a pretty strong poetry conference, because I try to cluster proposals and sequence panels in a way that makes some sense (to me, anyway).  Poetry papers / panels have leaned historically more in the Objectivist / New American / Langpo and related directions, partly because that's where my own interests and connections reside.  But "leaned" is not meant to imply exclusiveness: in just the last couple of years, for instance, I can remember papers and panels on Julia Alvarez, Louise Gluck, Julian Bond, and many modernists from the more to the less canonical--quite a range really.  People can propose pre-arranged panels, so some New-Po folks could put your heads together if you felt so inclined.  And it's not uncommon for presenters to do "alternative" presentations, however one might define that.  Quite a few poet-critics, which always pleases me.

We run concurrent "critical" and "creative" panels (yes, I know, but this probably isn't the time and place to get into that particular binary).  While I have input into the featured speakers, I don't have any input into the individual creative panels; the selections there, from my p-o-v, tend more toward (again, excuse the crude shorthand) the "mainstream" than not.

We have a house rule that conference committee members don't deliver talks (thus opening more spots for others), so I've ever given a couple of papers at the conference on an emergency basis to fill out panels.

Hope that helps.

Alan



From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 02:28:38 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 00:36:43 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, a very interesting poem. "dr" could also lead to "drive" and other
similar words.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>  As I was going through only blog entires, I came upon this, and
> immediately thought to myself that it might well be the best pure visual
> poem I've posted in my blog (now 5.5-years-old).
>
> Here's what I said about it (slightly revised): "This is what I consider
> the best kind of visual poem, not just because it looks nice (as it very
> much does)--but because it takes its engagent (provided he's capable of
> journeying) into so rich a manywhere-at-once. With such unsimple simplicity!
> Such as the spelling, which begins with two letters squeezed together, then
> a pair of letters set free from the *r* of the first pair but still joined
> as they float toward the suddenly huge final letter of the single word that
> comprises the entire poem, and opens/ darkens beyond letterness/ into
> everyone's second world.  An open book, a bed, night, a suggestion--for
> me--of clouds. And all the repeating curves . . . the m so close and
> unexpected a variation on the "dr" to repeat it in fairy-language . . . the
> druh, eeeeeeeee (suggestive of the word, "ease"), mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, with the
> latter conquering the page, then expanding beyond it. . . ."
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 12:47:32 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 09:59:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA53924.8090604@nut-n-but.net>

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> Yes, a very interesting poem. "dr" could also lead to "drive" and 
> other similar words.
Thanks for the look and reply, Anny.  Your comment made me realize 
something obvious: dr as short for doctor, or one who soothes a person 
the way a dream does.  A small connotation, but there.  As is dr. as 
short for drive, or going on a journey. . . .  This is one of the many 
things infraverbal devices are good for (and why all the major critics 
write about them so much).

--Bob

From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 12:28:38 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon Sep  7 10:40:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <4AA53924.8090604@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA53924.8090604@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909070928uf7870b7sd1f1feae6596bb71@mail.gmail.com>

Other words such as "drivel."

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> Yes, a very interesting poem. "dr" could also lead to "drive" and other
>> similar words.
>>
> Thanks for the look and reply, Anny.  Your comment made me realize
> something obvious: dr as short for doctor, or one who soothes a person the
> way a dream does.  A small connotation, but there.  As is dr. as short for
> drive, or going on a journey. . . .  This is one of the many things
> infraverbal devices are good for (and why all the major critics write about
> them so much).
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 13:57:35 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 11:10:04 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>

http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm

An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets.  
Hilarious.  Unfair but with a lot of near-truths.  We may have discussed 
this here a few years ago.  Or Parcelli, the author.  Can't remember.

Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:

*But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this situation. 
He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself. First, he aspires 
to the same sort of fame and recognition as the House Nigga poet, even 
though those rewards are largely a creation of the Slave Poetry Economy. 
This causes frustration on the part of the Field Nigga poets who attempt 
to break through. Some handle their disappointment with an odd mix of 
subservience and grace like Henry Gould. Others endear themselves by 
their grumpy, eccentricity like Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the 
system by sounding duller and more conformist than the Academic House 
Nigga poets themselves like Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been 
confused with legal briefs from product liability cases and pathological 
glossolalia. Then there are the technocrats, people handy with gadgets, 
like Allen Sondheim, who simply have seized upon the computer and 
internet after stints with Super 8, video, tape recorders et al and 
tried to force out a small niche for himself by flooding the plantation 
with every neural spasm his brain ever produced. Finally, there are just 
the Harry "Dr. Noodles" Nudel, a blind, untalented, idiot poser, without 
a drop of the wisdom, knowledge or the savvy of most Field Niggas.
*

*I /do/ want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am not 
pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on making 
poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not sure what 
Parcelli thinks a poet should be doing--something to make our country 
more Marxist, no doubt.
*

*--Bob
*

*
*


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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 13:19:48 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 11:31:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909070928uf7870b7sd1f1feae6596bb71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA53924.8090604@nut-n-but.net>
	<f160a1210909070928uf7870b7sd1f1feae6596bb71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909071019h3b2d831dw1f6874c11f5b499e@mail.gmail.com>

driveling and snoring...

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com> wrote:

> Other words such as "drivel."
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, a very interesting poem. "dr" could also lead to "drive" and other
>>> similar words.
>>>
>> Thanks for the look and reply, Anny.  Your comment made me realize
>> something obvious: dr as short for doctor, or one who soothes a person the
>> way a dream does.  A small connotation, but there.  As is dr. as short for
>> drive, or going on a journey. . . .  This is one of the many things
>> infraverbal devices are good for (and why all the major critics write about
>> them so much).
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 14:22:29 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 11:34:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A bpNichol Visual Poem
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909070928uf7870b7sd1f1feae6596bb71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA53924.8090604@nut-n-but.net>
	<f160a1210909070928uf7870b7sd1f1feae6596bb71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA54F65.7050308@nut-n-but.net>

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Other words such as "drivel."
Not really, Hal.  "Dr." is a standard abbreviation for "doctor" and 
"drive."  Of course, nullinguists can loop anywhere their hearts, 
unencumbered by brains, take them from any text.

--Bob

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 13:27:47 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 11:39:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
Message-ID: <c3a.5a9835c1.37d69c93@aol.com>

OK, Bob. We get it. Is there some way to make your point without using  
racist language? 
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From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep  7 13:50:49 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Mon Sep  7 12:01:47 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4D544434-E7F2-4829-BEB6-C621F289BBCB@myuw.net>

i don't think you're all that grumpy or eccentric Bob. But the  
combination of the two is so rare that, um, that...

I forgot what i was going to say.

On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
> An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets.   
> Hilarious.  Unfair but with a lot of near-truths.  We may have  
> discussed this here a few years ago.  Or Parcelli, the author.   
> Can't remember.
>
> Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
>
> *But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this  
> situation. He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself.  
> First, he aspires to the same sort of fame and recognition as the  
> House Nigga poet, even though those rewards are largely a creation  
> of the Slave Poetry Economy. This causes frustration on the part of  
> the Field Nigga poets who attempt to break through. Some handle  
> their disappointment with an odd mix of subservience and grace like  
> Henry Gould. Others endear themselves by their grumpy, eccentricity  
> like Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the system by sounding  
> duller and more conformist than the Academic House Nigga poets  
> themselves like Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been confused  
> with legal briefs from product liability cases and pathological  
> glossolalia. Then there are the technocrats, people handy with  
> gadgets, like Allen Sondheim, who simply have seized upon the  
> computer and internet after stints with Super 8, video, tape  
> recorders et al and tried to force out a small niche for himself by  
> flooding the plantation with every neural spasm his brain ever  
> produced. Finally, there are just the Harry "Dr. Noodles" Nudel, a  
> blind, untalented, idiot poser, without a drop of the wisdom,  
> knowledge or the savvy of most Field Niggas.
> *
>
> *I /do/ want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am  
> not pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on  
> making poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not  
> sure what Parcelli thinks a poet should be doing--something to make  
> our country more Marxist, no doubt.
> *
>
> *--Bob
> *
>
> *
> *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep  7 13:53:52 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Mon Sep  7 12:07:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>

Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem  
to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see  
something he wrote.

On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
> An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets.   
> Hilarious.  Unfair but with a lot of near-truths.  We may have  
> discussed this here a few years ago.  Or Parcelli, the author.   
> Can't remember.
>
> Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
>
> *But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this  
> situation. He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself.  
> First, he aspires to the same sort of fame and recognition as the  
> House Nigga poet, even though those rewards are largely a creation  
> of the Slave Poetry Economy. This causes frustration on the part of  
> the Field Nigga poets who attempt to break through. Some handle  
> their disappointment with an odd mix of subservience and grace like  
> Henry Gould. Others endear themselves by their grumpy, eccentricity  
> like Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the system by sounding  
> duller and more conformist than the Academic House Nigga poets  
> themselves like Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been confused  
> with legal briefs from product liability cases and pathological  
> glossolalia. Then there are the technocrats, people handy with  
> gadgets, like Allen Sondheim, who simply have seized upon the  
> computer and internet after stints with Super 8, video, tape  
> recorders et al and tried to force out a small niche for himself by  
> flooding the plantation with every neural spasm his brain ever  
> produced. Finally, there are just the Harry "Dr. Noodles" Nudel, a  
> blind, untalented, idiot poser, without a drop of the wisdom,  
> knowledge or the savvy of most Field Niggas.
> *
>
> *I /do/ want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am  
> not pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on  
> making poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not  
> sure what Parcelli thinks a poet should be doing--something to make  
> our country more Marxist, no doubt.
> *
>
> *--Bob
> *
>
> *
> *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 14:30:22 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Mon Sep  7 12:44:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909071130m582ff53l41ca2ba0964773f0@mail.gmail.com>

never met him in person, but he's a pretty wonderful reader, imo, and though
his private language is strange, I agree with his take on HalpernPinskyHass

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

> Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to
> shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he
> wrote
>

-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 14:38:02 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 12:51:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>


Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when?the item?is connected to the name?Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:

"Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful?people."

(I would?add the modifer?'self-inflated' to?the aptly?put?'fucking loon' appellation) 
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic



Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he wrote.?
?
On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:?
?
> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm?
>?
> An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets. > Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of near-truths. We may have > discussed this here a few years ago. Or Parcelli, the author. > Can't remember.?
>?
> Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:?
>?
>> *?
> *?
>?
>?
> _______________________________________________?
> New-Poetry mailing list?
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 15:00:40 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:08:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>

He does not dislike Newpoetry that much, nice of him. Pasting link and
excerpt:

http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm

The Buffalo Poetics List; The New Jim Crow

What's worse is that the strict penal code and Jim Crow that operates on
Buffalo Poetics, Poetryetc. and, to a limited and entirely delusional
degree, on Newpoetry are predicated on the notion that the postings will be
part and parcel of some careerist immortality. The fact that this very
delusion negates the possibility of anything durable ever being recorded on
the list, seems to escape everyone. Punishment is meted out to anyone, House
Nigga poet or Field Nigga poet, who challenges this peculiar institution and
Niggas are banished from the list for, well, being Niggas . Ezra Pound,
though long dead, is in like manner banished from the Ezra Pound list. Most
House Niggas thrown off the lists try to beg themselves back on cause they
miss the scraps. More often than not if they show the proper contrition and
present a paper at the MLA they are eventually allowed back on with shit
smeared cheek to jowel. Professor Gabe Gudding's groveling is paradigmatic
in this regard.

The Field Nigga poet getting back on a list? Well that dog don't hunt. No
matter how much he kiss's academic crack, he finds it impossible to get back
aboard unless he wins a prize or two or maneuvers himself into a position to
control some money and provide a quid pro quo that one, don't offend Massa
and, two, the Field Nigga sees some advantage in accepting. Otherwise the
Field Nigga can walk. Has Henry Gould, a mere librarian in Buffalo's eyes,
been allowed back on the Buffalo list?


On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:38 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is connected to the
> name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
> "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
> (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the aptly put 'fucking loon'
> appellation)
> Finnegan
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
> Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>
>  Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to
> shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he
> wrote.
>
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> > http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
> >
> > An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets. >
> Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of near-truths. We may have > discussed
> this here a few years ago. Or Parcelli, the author. > Can't remember.
> >
> > Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
> >
> >> *
> > *
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 15:27:32 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:35:33 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a language if
you do not know that language?
I remember I was hated and will be for my entire life on this earth by a
-some one- when  [this some one giggling in beatific narcissism for having
reviewed a review of a translation of Dante]  I told her that the minimum
required to do such a work would imply the reading of Dante in order to
understand if things were quoted right or wrong. Ah the revenge against my
words.

Jaysoos, people study and sweat their nice bottoms off on words day and
night and then everything becomes so smiley and easy, it just makes me sick.


I might not agree with Parcelli on some people he quotes, but if I do with
some other people he quotes (logically not on this list), I have seen much
on these lists as well.



On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> He does not dislike Newpoetry that much, nice of him. Pasting link and
> excerpt:
>
> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
> The Buffalo Poetics List; The New Jim Crow
>
> What's worse is that the strict penal code and Jim Crow that operates on
> Buffalo Poetics, Poetryetc. and, to a limited and entirely delusional
> degree, on Newpoetry are predicated on the notion that the postings will be
> part and parcel of some careerist immortality. The fact that this very
> delusion negates the possibility of anything durable ever being recorded on
> the list, seems to escape everyone. Punishment is meted out to anyone, House
> Nigga poet or Field Nigga poet, who challenges this peculiar institution and
> Niggas are banished from the list for, well, being Niggas . Ezra Pound,
> though long dead, is in like manner banished from the Ezra Pound list. Most
> House Niggas thrown off the lists try to beg themselves back on cause they
> miss the scraps. More often than not if they show the proper contrition and
> present a paper at the MLA they are eventually allowed back on with shit
> smeared cheek to jowel. Professor Gabe Gudding's groveling is paradigmatic
> in this regard.
>
> The Field Nigga poet getting back on a list? Well that dog don't hunt. No
> matter how much he kiss's academic crack, he finds it impossible to get back
> aboard unless he wins a prize or two or maneuvers himself into a position to
> control some money and provide a quid pro quo that one, don't offend Massa
> and, two, the Field Nigga sees some advantage in accepting. Otherwise the
> Field Nigga can walk. Has Henry Gould, a mere librarian in Buffalo's eyes,
> been allowed back on the Buffalo list?
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:38 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is connected to the
>> name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
>> "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
>> (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the aptly put 'fucking loon'
>> appellation)
>> Finnegan
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
>> Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>>
>>  Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to
>> shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he
>> wrote.
>>
>> On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>> > http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>> >
>> > An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets. >
>> Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of near-truths. We may have > discussed
>> this here a few years ago. Or Parcelli, the author. > Can't remember.
>> >
>> > Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
>> >
>> >> *
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep  7 15:31:39 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:39:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA55F9B.5060006@opus40.org>

You can't translate from a language if you do not know that language, 
but you can create a memorable poem in spite of it's not being a real 
translation -- look at Pound.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a 
> language if you do not know that language?
> I remember I was hated and will be for my entire life on this earth by 
> a -some one- when  [this some one giggling in beatific narcissism for 
> having reviewed a review of a translation of Dante]  I told her that 
> the minimum required to do such a work would imply the reading of 
> Dante in order to understand if things were quoted right or wrong. Ah 
> the revenge against my words.
>
> Jaysoos, people study and sweat their nice bottoms off on words day 
> and night and then everything becomes so smiley and easy, it just 
> makes me sick.
>
> I might not agree with Parcelli on some people he quotes, but if I do 
> with some other people he quotes (logically not on this list), I have 
> seen much on these lists as well.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Anny Ballardini 
> <anny.ballardini@gmail.com <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     He does not dislike Newpoetry that much, nice of him. Pasting link
>     and excerpt:
>
>
>     http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
>     The Buffalo Poetics List; The New Jim Crow
>
>     What's worse is that the strict penal code and Jim Crow that
>     operates on Buffalo Poetics, Poetryetc. and, to a limited and
>     entirely delusional degree, on Newpoetry are predicated on the
>     notion that the postings will be part and parcel of some careerist
>     immortality. The fact that this very delusion negates the
>     possibility of anything durable ever being recorded on the list,
>     seems to escape everyone. Punishment is meted out to anyone, House
>     Nigga poet or Field Nigga poet, who challenges this peculiar
>     institution and Niggas are banished from the list for, well, being
>     Niggas . Ezra Pound, though long dead, is in like manner banished
>     from the Ezra Pound list. Most House Niggas thrown off the lists
>     try to beg themselves back on cause they miss the scraps. More
>     often than not if they show the proper contrition and present a
>     paper at the MLA they are eventually allowed back on with shit
>     smeared cheek to jowel. Professor Gabe Gudding's groveling is
>     paradigmatic in this regard.
>
>     The Field Nigga poet getting back on a list? Well that dog don't
>     hunt. No matter how much he kiss's academic crack, he finds it
>     impossible to get back aboard unless he wins a prize or two or
>     maneuvers himself into a position to control some money and
>     provide a quid pro quo that one, don't offend Massa and, two, the
>     Field Nigga sees some advantage in accepting. Otherwise the Field
>     Nigga can walk. Has Henry Gould, a mere librarian in Buffalo's
>     eyes, been allowed back on the Buffalo list?
>
>
>
>     On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:38 PM, <jforjames@aol.com
>     <mailto:jforjames@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>         Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is
>         connected to the name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
>         "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
>         (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the
>         aptly put 'fucking loon' appellation)
>         Finnegan
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net <mailto:jfq@myuw.net>>
>         Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
>         Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>
>         Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I
>         can't seem to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every
>         time i see something he wrote. 
>          
>         On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: 
>          
>         > http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm 
>         > 
>         > An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language
>         poets. > Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of near-truths. We
>         may have > discussed this here a few years ago. Or Parcelli,
>         the author. > Can't remember. 
>         > 
>         > Here's the paragraph that mentions ME: 
>         > 
>         >> * 
>         > * 
>         > 
>         > 
>         > _______________________________________________ 
>
>         > New-Poetry mailing list 
>         > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>         > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>          
>         _______________________________________________ 
>         New-Poetry mailing list 
>         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Anny Ballardini
>     http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>     http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>     http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>     http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>     I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>     dancing star!
>     Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>     ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>     vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>     Giovenale
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 15:35:49 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:43:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA55F9B.5060006@opus40.org>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA55F9B.5060006@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909071235v10072777ic7e64428743f87e3@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I agree, but nonetheless there are so few Pounds around ...


On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:31 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:

> You can't translate from a language if you do not know that language, but
> you can create a memorable poem in spite of it's not being a real
> translation -- look at Pound.
>
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a language if
>> you do not know that language?
>> I remember I was hated and will be for my entire life on this earth by a
>> -some one- when  [this some one giggling in beatific narcissism for having
>> reviewed a review of a translation of Dante]  I told her that the minimum
>> required to do such a work would imply the reading of Dante in order to
>> understand if things were quoted right or wrong. Ah the revenge against my
>> words.
>>
>> Jaysoos, people study and sweat their nice bottoms off on words day and
>> night and then everything becomes so smiley and easy, it just makes me sick.
>>
>> I might not agree with Parcelli on some people he quotes, but if I do with
>> some other people he quotes (logically not on this list), I have seen much
>> on these lists as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    He does not dislike Newpoetry that much, nice of him. Pasting link
>>    and excerpt:
>>
>>
>>    http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>>
>>    The Buffalo Poetics List; The New Jim Crow
>>
>>    What's worse is that the strict penal code and Jim Crow that
>>    operates on Buffalo Poetics, Poetryetc. and, to a limited and
>>    entirely delusional degree, on Newpoetry are predicated on the
>>    notion that the postings will be part and parcel of some careerist
>>    immortality. The fact that this very delusion negates the
>>    possibility of anything durable ever being recorded on the list,
>>    seems to escape everyone. Punishment is meted out to anyone, House
>>    Nigga poet or Field Nigga poet, who challenges this peculiar
>>    institution and Niggas are banished from the list for, well, being
>>    Niggas . Ezra Pound, though long dead, is in like manner banished
>>    from the Ezra Pound list. Most House Niggas thrown off the lists
>>    try to beg themselves back on cause they miss the scraps. More
>>    often than not if they show the proper contrition and present a
>>    paper at the MLA they are eventually allowed back on with shit
>>    smeared cheek to jowel. Professor Gabe Gudding's groveling is
>>    paradigmatic in this regard.
>>
>>    The Field Nigga poet getting back on a list? Well that dog don't
>>    hunt. No matter how much he kiss's academic crack, he finds it
>>    impossible to get back aboard unless he wins a prize or two or
>>    maneuvers himself into a position to control some money and
>>    provide a quid pro quo that one, don't offend Massa and, two, the
>>    Field Nigga sees some advantage in accepting. Otherwise the Field
>>    Nigga can walk. Has Henry Gould, a mere librarian in Buffalo's
>>    eyes, been allowed back on the Buffalo list?
>>
>>
>>
>>    On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:38 PM, <jforjames@aol.com
>>    <mailto:jforjames@aol.com>> wrote:
>>
>>        Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is
>>        connected to the name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
>>        "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
>>        (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the
>>        aptly put 'fucking loon' appellation)
>>        Finnegan
>>        -----Original Message-----
>>        From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net <mailto:jfq@myuw.net>>
>>        Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
>>        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>>
>>        Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I
>>        can't seem to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every
>>        time i see something he wrote.                On Sep 7, 2009, at
>> 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:                >
>> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm        >        > An attack on all
>> the bigName poets, and even the language
>>        poets. > Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of near-truths. We
>>        may have > discussed this here a few years ago. Or Parcelli,
>>        the author. > Can't remember.        >        > Here's the
>> paragraph that mentions ME:        >        >> *        > *        >
>>  >        > _______________________________________________
>>        > New-Poetry mailing list        > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu<mailto:
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>        >
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>  _______________________________________________        New-Poetry mailing
>> list        New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>        _______________________________________________
>>
>>        New-Poetry mailing list
>>        New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    --    Anny Ballardini
>>    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>    http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>>    dancing star!
>>    Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>>    ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>    vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>    Giovenale
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep  7 15:40:41 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:49:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909071235v10072777ic7e64428743f87e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA55F9B.5060006@opus40.org>
	<4b65c2d70909071235v10072777ic7e64428743f87e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA561B9.7000403@opus40.org>

True. The chances of anyone doing anything well -- translation, 
adaptation, original poem -- are slim at best.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> Yes, I agree, but nonetheless there are so few Pounds around ...
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:31 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org 
> <mailto:Opus40-01@opus40.org>> wrote:
>
>     You can't translate from a language if you do not know that
>     language, but you can create a memorable poem in spite of it's not
>     being a real translation -- look at Pound.
>
>     Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>         I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a
>         language if you do not know that language?
>         I remember I was hated and will be for my entire life on this
>         earth by a -some one- when  [this some one giggling in
>         beatific narcissism for having reviewed a review of a
>         translation of Dante]  I told her that the minimum required to
>         do such a work would imply the reading of Dante in order to
>         understand if things were quoted right or wrong. Ah the
>         revenge against my words.
>
>         Jaysoos, people study and sweat their nice bottoms off on
>         words day and night and then everything becomes so smiley and
>         easy, it just makes me sick.
>
>         I might not agree with Parcelli on some people he quotes, but
>         if I do with some other people he quotes (logically not on
>         this list), I have seen much on these lists as well.
>
>
>
>         On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Anny Ballardini
>         <anny.ballardini@gmail.com <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com
>         <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>            He does not dislike Newpoetry that much, nice of him.
>         Pasting link
>            and excerpt:
>
>
>            http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
>            The Buffalo Poetics List; The New Jim Crow
>
>            What's worse is that the strict penal code and Jim Crow that
>            operates on Buffalo Poetics, Poetryetc. and, to a limited and
>            entirely delusional degree, on Newpoetry are predicated on the
>            notion that the postings will be part and parcel of some
>         careerist
>            immortality. The fact that this very delusion negates the
>            possibility of anything durable ever being recorded on the
>         list,
>            seems to escape everyone. Punishment is meted out to
>         anyone, House
>            Nigga poet or Field Nigga poet, who challenges this peculiar
>            institution and Niggas are banished from the list for,
>         well, being
>            Niggas . Ezra Pound, though long dead, is in like manner
>         banished
>            from the Ezra Pound list. Most House Niggas thrown off the
>         lists
>            try to beg themselves back on cause they miss the scraps. More
>            often than not if they show the proper contrition and present a
>            paper at the MLA they are eventually allowed back on with shit
>            smeared cheek to jowel. Professor Gabe Gudding's groveling is
>            paradigmatic in this regard.
>
>            The Field Nigga poet getting back on a list? Well that dog
>         don't
>            hunt. No matter how much he kiss's academic crack, he finds it
>            impossible to get back aboard unless he wins a prize or two or
>            maneuvers himself into a position to control some money and
>            provide a quid pro quo that one, don't offend Massa and,
>         two, the
>            Field Nigga sees some advantage in accepting. Otherwise the
>         Field
>            Nigga can walk. Has Henry Gould, a mere librarian in Buffalo's
>            eyes, been allowed back on the Buffalo list?
>
>
>
>            On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:38 PM, <jforjames@aol.com
>         <mailto:jforjames@aol.com>
>            <mailto:jforjames@aol.com <mailto:jforjames@aol.com>>> wrote:
>
>                Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is
>                connected to the name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with
>         warning:
>                "Content likely objectionable to considerate &
>         thoughtful people."
>                (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the
>                aptly put 'fucking loon' appellation)
>                Finnegan
>                -----Original Message-----
>                From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net
>         <mailto:jfq@myuw.net> <mailto:jfq@myuw.net <mailto:jfq@myuw.net>>>
>                Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
>                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>
>                Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I
>                can't seem to shake the feeling that he's a fucking
>         loon every
>                time i see something he wrote.                On Sep 7,
>         2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:                >
>         http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm        >        > An
>         attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language
>                poets. > Hilarious. Unfair but with a lot of
>         near-truths. We
>                may have > discussed this here a few years ago. Or
>         Parcelli,
>                the author. > Can't remember.        >        > Here's
>         the paragraph that mentions ME:        >        >> *        >
>         *        >        >        >
>         _______________________________________________
>                > New-Poetry mailing list        >
>         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>>        >
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry            
>            _______________________________________________      
>          New-Poetry mailing list        New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>>      
>          http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>                _______________________________________________
>
>                New-Poetry mailing list
>                New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>>
>
>                http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>            --    Anny Ballardini
>            http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>            http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>            http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>            http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>            I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>            dancing star!
>            Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>            ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>            vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>            Giovenale
>
>
>
>
>         -- 
>         Anny Ballardini
>         http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>         http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>         http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>         http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>         I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to
>         a dancing star!
>         Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>         ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>         vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>         Giovenale
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>          
>
>
>     -- 
>     Tad Richards
>     Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>     http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
>     http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>     http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 15:44:33 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:52:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909071244m7ba62999re0fb4274eda74a9a@mail.gmail.com>

Wow.  I mean, just wow.

Sad & (unfortunately) incredibly typical.

Bob, you continue to astound me.

Jeff Newberry

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>  http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
> An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets.
> Hilarious.  Unfair but with a lot of near-truths.  We may have discussed
> this here a few years ago.  Or Parcelli, the author.  Can't remember.
>
> Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
>
> *But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this situation.
> He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself. First, he aspires to
> the same sort of fame and recognition as the House Nigga poet, even though
> those rewards are largely a creation of the Slave Poetry Economy. This
> causes frustration on the part of the Field Nigga poets who attempt to break
> through. Some handle their disappointment with an odd mix of subservience
> and grace like Henry Gould. Others endear themselves by their grumpy,
> eccentricity like Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the system by sounding
> duller and more conformist than the Academic House Nigga poets themselves
> like Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been confused with legal briefs
> from product liability cases and pathological glossolalia. Then there are
> the technocrats, people handy with gadgets, like Allen Sondheim, who simply
> have seized upon the computer and internet after stints with Super 8, video,
> tape recorders et al and tried to force out a small niche for himself by
> flooding the plantation with every neural spasm his brain ever produced.
> Finally, there are just the Harry "Dr. Noodles" Nudel, a blind, untalented,
> idiot poser, without a drop of the wisdom, knowledge or the savvy of most
> Field Niggas.
> *
>
> *I do want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am not
> pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on making
> poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not sure what Parcelli
> thinks a poet should be doing--something to make our country more Marxist,
> no doubt.
> *
>
> *--Bob
> *
>
> *
> *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 16:43:49 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:55:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <c3a.5a9835c1.37d69c93@aol.com>
References: <c3a.5a9835c1.37d69c93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA57085.5080805@nut-n-but.net>

AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote:
> OK, Bob. We get it. Is there some way to make your point without using 
> racist language?
Lawsy me, Ah sho' hope so, Al.  But ceptin' 'bout me bein' endearing, 
ain't really hardly none o' mah points in that thing I done post.  Nor 
mah language, neitherhow, bein' as I allus has done said, don't use no 
words what offend any o' the lawd's chillens whatsoevah.

--Bob
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 15:51:39 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 13:59:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
Message-ID: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>

Cute, Bob. But this guy is full of shit. He just wanted some venue in which 
 to say "nigga" cause that would prove he was a down street poet, not one 
of the  softies. Pure pose.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 15:54:19 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon Sep  7 14:02:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
References: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909071254t447aa882wa37da37801e3c713@mail.gmail.com>

Al,

I think Bob's response says more than the original post--just chock full of
class.

Jeff Newberry

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <AlMaginnes@aol.com> wrote:

>  Cute, Bob. But this guy is full of shit. He just wanted some venue in
> which to say "nigga" cause that would prove he was a down street poet, not
> one of the softies. Pure pose.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 17:25:42 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 14:36:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <4AA57A56.9030009@nut-n-but.net>

Jason Quackenbush wrote:
> Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem 
> to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see 
> something he wrote.
>
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
I think he and I got into it a bit at one time.  He seems a crazed 30's 
sort of extreme leftist to me--but I do think this piece of his a great 
polemic.  That's in good part because I'm not that big a fan of the 
people he lambasts, but I also truly believe that I'd get as big a kick 
out of a similar polemic against  anti-establishment poets--if anyone 
were capable of it.

--Bob G.


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 17:33:28 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 14:41:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA57C28.6010802@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is connected to 
> the name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
> "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
> (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the aptly put 'fucking 
> loon' appellation)
> Finnegan
I didn't think, Finnegan.  I'm so wedded to the idea of words not being 
sticks and stones, I often forget there are some who are not.  I 
couldn't use your warning, but do agree that maybe "beware, content many 
would consider politically-incorrect" would be appropriate.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 17:39:33 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 14:47:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net><8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1B
	C6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA57D95.2060303@nut-n-but.net>

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a 
> language if you do not know that language?
I'm not sure I wholly agree, Anny.  I feel I've translated some Japanese 
haiku with no knowledge of the language by using (1) someone else's 
literal translation of the haiku, and drawing on (2) a deep (I think) 
knowledge of many fine translations of Japanese haiku by others which 
have given me a sense of what the poet I'm translating does in his 
poetry.  I'd coin a word meaning translated from an English translation, 
but nobody likes my coinages . . .

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 17:47:46 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 14:55:04 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
References: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA57F82.70503@nut-n-but.net>

AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote:
> Cute, Bob. But this guy is full of shit. He just wanted some venue in 
> which to say "nigga" cause that would prove he was a down street poet, 
> not one of the softies. Pure pose.

Part pose.  He is sincere in his contempt for those he considers 
cop-outs.  And the (oops, here we go again?) the dichotomy does work.  
It's just a variety of the outs and the ins.  And, be honest, isn't it 
fun sometimes to witness some bigName anybody who is fulsomely praised 
all over the place get drubbed once in a while, however unfairly?

I personally think almost none of the poets he picks on are mere 
careerists, by the way.  I think they mostly write the way they write 
because they want to, and they were lucky enough for that to turn out a 
way they could become ins using.  I don't see how anyone can avoid being 
a careerist of some sort--we all want to earn a  living doing what we 
want, and we all want to be liked (by most others) and we all have to 
make compromises at times.

--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 17:07:42 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep  7 15:15:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA57D95.2060303@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net> <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA57D95.2060303@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909071407q36dd9839s15708d66f8c44528@mail.gmail.com>

Bob,

in painting they taught me that if you want to be a painter you will have to
know how to draw, and then proceed with a tabula rasa and start working. See
these monochromes / abstractions, if we wish to call them that way, by Italo
Bressan<http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fornaresio.com/images/bress_ditt.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.fornaresio.com/Home_Bressan.html&usg=__C33OP0Ubz3bsGk8XhjNNIk9K4u0=&h=418&w=600&sz=32&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=eXvf2JnXTJBy5M:&tbnh=94&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ditalo%2Bbressan%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1>
:
I cannot find what I am referring to, but the work I would like to show by
him are big (about 3m x 1.5m) watercolors on special paper he had shipped
directly from China. By the series I mention he uses one color: red or blue
or yellow or green..., and if you got closer your could see his mastery in
diluting or thickening the pigments in different areas, the incredible
variety of hues and tones and transparencies.

The same goes with translations. You must know the two languages you are
working with, you start out with a literal translation, consult other
translations, and finally draw a final version. There is no improvising
involved. We are talking of technique here. You cannot be a philosopher if
you do not know what philosophy is.

You are quoting 1 translation of 1 haiku. I know you are specialized also in
haikus, and you trusted an English version and experimented with it. That is
fine with me. You are not telling me that you are a translator, you're not
selling this haiku around as the big creation of your mind. I can't see
anything wrong with it.




On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a language if
>> you do not know that language?
>>
> I'm not sure I wholly agree, Anny.  I feel I've translated some Japanese
> haiku with no knowledge of the language by using (1) someone else's literal
> translation of the haiku, and drawing on (2) a deep (I think) knowledge of
> many fine translations of Japanese haiku by others which have given me a
> sense of what the poet I'm translating does in his poetry.  I'd coin a word
> meaning translated from an English translation, but nobody likes my coinages
> . . .
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep  7 18:28:33 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep  7 16:36:29 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909071407q36dd9839s15708d66f8c44528@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA57D95.2060303@nut-n-but.net>
	<4b65c2d70909071407q36dd9839s15708d66f8c44528@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA58911.80404@opus40.org>

Anny -- actually, doesn't it seem that Bob is offering this haiku as the 
creation of his mind (and a legitimate one), rather than an actual 
translation of the creation of someone else's mind, in someone else's 
language?

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> Bob,
>
> in painting they taught me that if you want to be a painter you will 
> have to know how to draw, and then proceed with a tabula rasa and 
> start working. See these monochromes / abstractions, if we wish to 
> call them that way, by Italo Bressan 
> <http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fornaresio.com/images/bress_ditt.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.fornaresio.com/Home_Bressan.html&usg=__C33OP0Ubz3bsGk8XhjNNIk9K4u0=&h=418&w=600&sz=32&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=eXvf2JnXTJBy5M:&tbnh=94&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ditalo%2Bbressan%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1>:
> I cannot find what I am referring to, but the work I would like to 
> show by him are big (about 3m x 1.5m) watercolors on special paper he 
> had shipped directly from China. By the series I mention he uses one 
> color: red or blue or yellow or green..., and if you got closer your 
> could see his mastery in diluting or thickening the pigments in 
> different areas, the incredible variety of hues and tones and 
> transparencies.
>
> The same goes with translations. You must know the two languages you 
> are working with, you start out with a literal translation, consult 
> other translations, and finally draw a final version. There is no 
> improvising involved. We are talking of technique here. You cannot be 
> a philosopher if you do not know what philosophy is.
>
> You are quoting 1 translation of 1 haiku. I know you are specialized 
> also in haikus, and you trusted an English version and experimented 
> with it. That is fine with me. You are not telling me that you are a 
> translator, you're not selling this haiku around as the big creation 
> of your mind. I can't see anything wrong with it.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net 
> <mailto:bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>> wrote:
>
>     Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>         I agree with him on Translations. How can you translate from a
>         language if you do not know that language?
>
>     I'm not sure I wholly agree, Anny.  I feel I've translated some
>     Japanese haiku with no knowledge of the language by using (1)
>     someone else's literal translation of the haiku, and drawing on
>     (2) a deep (I think) knowledge of many fine translations of
>     Japanese haiku by others which have given me a sense of what the
>     poet I'm translating does in his poetry.  I'd coin a word meaning
>     translated from an English translation, but nobody likes my
>     coinages . . .
>
>     --Bob
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 18:35:11 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 16:43:21 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
References: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFE22981E7E2B-7A84-1D74F@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>


Worse than pose...delusional, delusions of grandeur. Parcelli even takes a swipe of Dan Schneider, 

http://www.cosmoetica.com/

who deserves at least dope slap. They are two cut from same ratty, threadbare?cloth. 

Just because one's website gets a lot of hits doesn't mean you're saying anything of value.

People rubberneck at the worst of accidents...we can't help it.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: AlMaginnes@aol.com
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic




Cute, Bob. But this guy is full of shit. He just wanted some venue in which to say "nigga" cause that would prove he was a down street poet, not one of the softies. Pure pose.






_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 18:43:37 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 16:51:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA57A56.9030009@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>
	<4AA57A56.9030009@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <8CBFE23C5DB6B88-7A84-1D897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>


I had?a Parcelli bout way back in CAP-L days. The problem with the guy is that he does know a few things about poetry (stuck primarily the Modernist sensibility), but he can't argue without?interjecting ad hominens in every other phrase. He thinks if?he calls you stupid enough times?you'll cower and withdraw.?He fancies himself an incarnation the pre-Socratic philosopher,? Diogenes the Dog. (Neglectful of convention, speaking truth to power, etc.) But he's really got the dog down and needs to work on wit?and insight of?Diogenes.



Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic



Jason Quackenbush wrote:?
> Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem > to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see > something he wrote.?
>?
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:?
I think he and I got into it a bit at one time. He seems a crazed 30's sort of extreme leftist to me--but I do think this piece of his a great polemic. That's in good part because I'm not that big a fan of the people he lambasts, but I also truly believe that I'd get as big a kick out of a similar polemic against anti-establishment poets--if anyone were capable of it.?
?
--Bob G.?
?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 19:46:07 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 16:54:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA58911.80404@opus40.org>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net>	<4b65c2d70909071200g70e1843ev33f4112efd31c7a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909071227p2acdcf8y60b87d8db6161bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA57D95.2060303@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909071407q36dd9839s15708d66f8c44528@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA58911.80404@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <4AA59B3F.90900@nut-n-but.net>

TheOldMole wrote:
> Anny -- actually, doesn't it seem that Bob is offering this haiku as 
> the creation of his mind (and a legitimate one), rather than an actual 
> translation of the creation of someone else's mind, in someone else's 
> language?
Something like that, I think.  It's a very tricky situation, seems to 
me.  The haiku I end up with is a translation, and needs to be called a 
translation  On reflection, I suppose I'd have to call it a variation on 
a translation by so-and-so--or, as in the case I'm thinking of, a 
variation on many translations.  One small problem, though: what if I 
capture something genuinely in the original haiku that none of the 
translations capture?  It's not me added to someone else's haiku, but 
the original author revealed, as in a translation.  I say this can 
happen: one can get a better idea of what a writer in another language 
has written from knowing him and all the translations of his work, and 
knowing his time and country, etc., and maybe having genes in common 
with him.  Certainly this has not been true of me that I know of, but I 
think it may have been with some who have made "translations" of poetry 
in a language they don't know.  Final thought: there are many ways of 
effectively doing almost anything.  Certainly the best way to translate 
something is to know the language of the thing to be translated, but I'm 
not sure it's the only way.

All this comes from my bias against the belief of so many that empirical 
knowledge is the only true knowledge.  I'm an Athenian who believes 
thinking about something teaches you much more than empirical study.  
It's not how much you know but how well you can think that counts.
 
I also believe a translation can be better than the original.

--Bob

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 19:51:36 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 16:59:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE22981E7E2B-7A84-1D74F@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
References: <c4e.587eb052.37d6be4b@aol.com>
	<8CBFE22981E7E2B-7A84-1D74F@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA59C88.5050401@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> Worse than pose...delusional, delusions of grandeur. Parcelli even 
> takes a swipe of Dan Schneider,
> http://www.cosmoetica.com/
> who deserves at least dope slap. They are two cut from same ratty, 
> threadbare cloth.
> Just because one's website gets a lot of hits doesn't mean you're 
> saying anything of value.
> People rubberneck at the worst of accidents...we can't help it.
> Finnegan
I thought of ol' Dan, too.  But I also thought of how some people take 
me: as right behind them.  Maybe sometimes, but not consistently!!!

--Bob

From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 18:54:23 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 17:02:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA57C28.6010802@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net><8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<4AA57C28.6010802@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <8CBFE2546D7AC4C-7A84-1DA2F@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>


politically incorrect would be a euphemism extraordinaire in the case of how Parcelli has cast his argument...

Do you think any white person should use terminology developed by?formerly 'enslaved' (really enslaved, not abstactly enslaved)?African Americans

as his analog for describing the 'in' and 'out' poets he want to praise or dismiss? I think a thoughtful person would have quickly veered away from

that terminology.

Parcelli is probably someone?who has lived so long at the margins,?he thinks he's?entitled to consider himself enslaved.?
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:33 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic



jforjames@aol.com wrote:?
> Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is connected to > the name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:?
> "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."?
> (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the aptly put 'fucking > loon' appellation)?
> Finnegan?
I didn't think, Finnegan. I'm so wedded to the idea of words not being sticks and stones, I often forget there are some who are not. I couldn't use your warning, but do agree that maybe "beware, content many would consider politically-incorrect" would be appropriate.?
?
--Bob?
?
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 19:00:57 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Mon Sep  7 17:08:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>

while cp has been using his slang for more than a decade, one of the things
I found interesting is how thoroughly the modernists had no idea certain
"ethnic" dialects were offensive, and thought of them as paying homage to
various people -- this came up clearly when I was re reading lola ridge and
reviews of lola ridge by arthur kreymbourg, for example -- but take your
pick!
there they are praising someone's "natural" use of spelling or trying to
depict a creole or slang or dialect of an ethnic group to which they do not
belong

-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 19:01:27 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 17:09:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE23C5DB6B88-7A84-1D897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><3B410D92-3020-4C45-9A6E-9C8E0E455E66@myuw.net><4AA57A56.9030009@nut-n-but.net>
	<8CBFE23C5DB6B88-7A84-1D897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFE26440661CF-7A84-1DB40@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>


Diogenes the dog/cynic...

http://millionsofmouths.com/diogenes.html

I was wrong, he was not pre-Socratic.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames@aol.com
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 6:43 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic




I had?a Parcelli bout way back in CAP-L days. The problem with the guy is that he does know a few things about poetry (stuck primarily the Modernist sensibility), but he can't argue without?interjecting ad hominens in every other phrase. He thinks if?he calls you stupid enough times?you'll cower and withdraw.?He fancies himself an incarnation the pre-Socratic philosopher,? Diogenes the Dog. (Neglectful of convention, speaking truth to power, etc.) But he's really got the dog down and needs to work on wit?and insight of?Diogenes.

?

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic



Jason Quackenbush wrote:?
> Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem > to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see > something he wrote.?
>?
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:?
I think he and I got into it a bit at one time. He seems a crazed 30's sort of extreme leftist to me--but I do think this piece of his a great polemic. That's in good part because I'm not that big a fan of the people he lambasts, but I also truly believe that I'd get as big a kick out of a similar polemic against anti-establishment poets--if anyone were capable of it.?
?
--Bob G.?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?




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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 19:05:45 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 17:13:53 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CBFE26DD8C6FF0-7A84-1DBD2@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>

Modernists can be excused as product of their times (pre-civil rights, only barely post-colonial, etc)...mr. cp, no so much.
Finnegan 


-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 7:00 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect


while cp has been using his slang for more than a decade, one of the things I found interesting is how thoroughly the modernists had no idea certain "ethnic" dialects were offensive, and thought of them as paying homage to various people -- this came up clearly when I was re reading lola ridge and reviews of lola ridge by arthur kreymbourg, for example -- but take your pick!?



there they are praising someone's "natural" use of spelling or trying to depict a creole or slang or dialect of an ethnic group to which they do not belong

-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com




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New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 19:21:55 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 17:30:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA57085.5080805@nut-n-but.net>
References: <c3a.5a9835c1.37d69c93@aol.com> <4AA57085.5080805@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <8CBFE291FBBB94A-7A84-1DE0C@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>


Bob, why not try this at your local hip-hop club. I'm sure it will come off very favorably.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic



AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: 

OK, Bob. We get it. Is there some way to make your point without using racist language?

Lawsy me, Ah sho' hope so, Al.? But ceptin' 'bout me bein' endearing, ain't really hardly none o' mah points in that thing I done post.? Nor mah language, neitherhow, bein' as I allus has done said, don't use no words what offend any o' the lawd's chillens whatsoevah.

--Bob



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 21:09:03 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 18:18:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE291FBBB94A-7A84-1DE0C@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
References: <c3a.5a9835c1.37d69c93@aol.com> <4AA57085.5080805@nut-n-but.net>
	<8CBFE291FBBB94A-7A84-1DE0C@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4AA5AEAF.50803@nut-n-but.net>

jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> Bob, why not try this at your local hip-hop club. I'm sure it will 
> come off very favorably.
> Finnegan
Better than my poems would.  But I doubt it'd cause much of an uproar, 
me being endearingly grumpy and eccentric.

--Bob


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  7 21:24:51 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon Sep  7 19:32:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505d76f6247@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu>

My own take on Mr. Parcelli's article is amazement that anyone could  
take such empty-headed claptrap seriously.   Maybe no one does.  Even  
if you could put aside the vicious crudities, thuggish rhetoric, and  
5th grade humor, one is left with an "argument" that hardly rises to  
the level of ridiculous, all built around a simplistic binary that is  
crude to the point of meaningless.  It's also never applied to any  
actual poetry.

Consider the following entirely typical passage:

"But the site of a Field Nigga aspiring to the aesthetic lifestyle of  
the House Nigga no matter what the strategy, is mere bathos because  
none of this has anything at all to do with poetry. Many of our most  
famous House Nigga poets know this instinctively having lived under  
Massa's roof. Jorie Graham is prominent among them. She understands  
that an exchange of genetic material whether it occurs during sexual  
intercourse or just an old fashioned lip pucker into Massa's rump  
pucker is predicated on intimacy no matter how phony. This has been  
Massa's supreme lesson---its who you know not what you know. Dana  
Gioia is another case in point, having toiled in Massa's Field at  
Pepsi, he now winds his lips around Laura Bush's labia."

If you study this passage for a moment you'll soon realize that  
nothing of substance is even claimed about anything.  It's just nasty  
blather, and bad writing to boot.  (Bad beyond the misspelling and  
other errors, I mean.)  Diagram that first sentence, for example, and  
see if it even makes grammatical sense.  What does "bathos" refer to,  
and who exactly is bathetic?  Similarly, what is he claiming that  
Jorie Graham understands?  And Dana Gioia is "another case in point"-- 
of what, precisely?  That is, try to figure that out as soon as you  
get finished laughing at an author who thinks "winds his lips around  
Laura Bush's labia" means something. (*Winds* his lips?)  Just try to  
wrangle any of this soggy mess of nastiness into an actual assertion  
about a single poet, poem, or aesthetic opinion.

The whole article is not just crude in racial and sexual terms but in  
thinking, or lack thereof.  "Crude" is too generous a label for such  
spew.

Bob Grumman termed the article "hilarious" while acknowledging that  
some of it is "unfair."  Yes, and sometimes Hitler was "unkind" to Jews.
========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> http://www.flashpointmag.com/house.htm
>
> An attack on all the bigName poets, and even the language poets.   
> Hilarious.  Unfair but with a lot of near-truths.  We may have  
> discussed this here a few years ago.  Or Parcelli, the author.   
> Can't remember.
>
> Here's the paragraph that mentions ME:
> But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this  
> situation. He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself.  
> First, he aspires to the same sort of fame and recognition as the  
> House Nigga poet, even though those rewards are largely a creation  
> of the Slave Poetry Economy. This causes frustration on the part of  
> the Field Nigga poets who attempt to break through. Some handle  
> their disappointment with an odd mix of subservience and grace like  
> Henry Gould. Others endear themselves by their grumpy, eccentricity  
> like Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the system by sounding  
> duller and more conformist than the Academic House Nigga poets  
> themselves like Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been confused  
> with legal briefs from product liability cases and pathological  
> glossolalia. Then there are the technocrats, people handy with  
> gadgets, like Allen Sondheim, who simply have seized upon the  
> computer and internet after stints with Super 8, video, tape  
> recorders et al and tried to force out a small niche for himself by  
> flooding the plantation with every neural spasm his brain ever  
> produced. Finally, there are just the Harry "Dr. Noodles" Nudel, a  
> blind, untalented, idiot poser, without a drop of the wisdom,  
> knowledge or the savvy of most Field Niggas.
>
> I do want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am not  
> pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on  
> making poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not  
> sure what Parcelli thinks a poet should be doing--something to make  
> our country more Marxist, no doubt.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 21:30:42 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  7 19:38:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Anthologist
Message-ID: <8CBFE3B1D667EEA-1F6C-1E61B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com>


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/books/2009807927_br06anthologist.html

"The Anthologist"

by Nicholas Baker

Simon & Schuster, 256 pp., $25



In the brisk and entertaining "The Anthologist," Nicholson Baker tackles what might seem a daunting task. He writes a completely successful novel about poetry


His protagonist, 55-year-old poet Paul Chowder, is not having the same luck.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  7 21:46:37 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon Sep  7 19:54:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC>

From: Catherine Daly

<<
while cp has been using his slang for more than a decade, one of the things 
I found interesting is how thoroughly the modernists had no idea certain 
"ethnic" dialects were offensive, and thought of them as paying homage to 
various people -- this came up clearly when I was re reading lola ridge and 
reviews of lola ridge by arthur kreymbourg, for example -- but take your 
pick!


there they are praising someone's "natural" use of spelling or trying to 
depict a creole or slang or dialect of an ethnic group to which they do not 
belong
>>

I'm not sure whether what's at issue here is speech (I tend to prefer this 
term to creole/slang/dialect/ebonics in this context), the expropriation 
thereof, or The Auswitch Problem (of comparing the lesser to the greater, as 
Plath sees her personal experience in terms of the concentration camps of 
WWII Germany).  What's certainly at work is either suppression, elision, 
misdirection or confusion on Parcelli's part.  Or perhaps he's cleverer than 
I'm giving him credit for.

What brought me up short was the term "House Nigga".  "House _nigga_" --  
what the fuck?  Is Parcelli being uncharacteristically coy and avoiding the 
term "nigger"?

Well, maybe, but it's more probable that CP is being up-to-the-minute and 
reflecting the usage and spelling of the rap singer KRS-One, who has a song 
with that title.

Maybe.

Here's a bit from KRS-One's "House Nigga":

        It's the concept of the house nigga, field nigga
        The house nigga will sell you up the river
        So to massa, he'll look bigger
        And when ya bet under a rock, he'll slither
        But I'll grab the tail of the house nigga
        Pull the trigger and his head I'll deliver
        To the court of righteous people
        Black, white, or Indian, we're all equal
        So all ya racist codes I'll decode, explode
        And eat you like apple pie a la mode

Except that behind KRS-One and Carlo Parcelli is a speech by Malcolm X in 
1963:

"If you're afraid of black nationalism, you're afraid of revolution. And if 
you love revolution, you love black nationalism. To understand this, you 
have to go back to what the young brother here referred to as the house 
Negro and the field Negro back during slavery. There were two kinds of 
slaves, the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes - they lived 
in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good because 
they ate his food - what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, 
but still they lived near the master; and they loved the master more than 
the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master's 
house - quicker than the master would. If the master said, "We got a good 
house here," the house Negro would say, 'Yeah, we got a good house here.' 
Whenever the master said "we," he said "we." That's how you can tell a house 
Negro."

So far so good -- Malcolm X chooses the term "negro" for which KRS-One, 
followed by Parcelli, substitute "niggra".

Except -- the nature of the difference between house slaves and yard or 
field slaves goes way back into 19thC America, but the term itself?

It seems to pop up full-blown in Margaret Mitchell's  _Gone With the Wind_ 
in 1937, except that Mitchell uses the expression "yard nigger", not "field 
nigger": "Ah ain' no yard nigger. Ah's a house nigger." (Prissy to 
Scarlett).

So ...

I'm fairly sure KRS-One had Malcolm X (who uses the historical analogy best) 
in mind when he wrote his song, but I'm not so sure Parcelli sees anything 
behind KRS-One.

(For what it's worth, Jonathan Green in _The Cassell Dictionary of Slang_ 
has all three terms -- field nigger, house nigger, and yard nigger 
originating in the mid-20thC or later, so unless anyone can push the 
specific wording back before GWTW in 1937 ...?  As Green is concerned with 
the slang use [for a contemporary subservient black], it's possible he's 
simply omitting Margaret Mitchell as using "yard nigger" in a pre-slang 
descriptive fashion.)

Robin




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 23:14:47 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 20:23:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but.net>

David Graham wrote:
> My own take on Mr. Parcelli's article is amazement that anyone could 
> take such empty-headed claptrap seriously.   Maybe no one does.  Even 
> if you could put aside the vicious crudities, thuggish rhetoric, and 
> 5th grade humor, one is left with an "argument" that hardly rises to 
> the level of ridiculous, all built around a simplistic binary that is 
> crude to the point of meaningless.  It's also never applied to any 
> actual poetry. 
It's applied sometimes, just not well: "*Ron Silliman('s) . . . poetic 
product has been confused with legal briefs from product liability cases 
and pathological glossolalia."*

>
> Consider the following entirely typical passage:
>
> "But the site of a Field Nigga aspiring to the aesthetic lifestyle of 
> the House Nigga no matter what the strategy, is mere bathos because 
> none of this has anything at all to do with poetry. Many of our most 
> famous House Nigga poets know this instinctively having lived under 
> Massa's roof. Jorie Graham is prominent among them. She understands 
> that an exchange of genetic material whether it occurs during sexual 
> intercourse or just an old fashioned lip pucker into Massa's rump 
> pucker is predicated on intimacy no matter how phony. This has been 
> Massa's supreme lesson---its who you know not what you know. Dana 
> Gioia is another case in point, having toiled in Massa's Field at 
> Pepsi, he now winds his lips around Laura Bush's labia."
>
> If you study this passage for a moment you'll soon realize that 
> nothing of substance is even claimed about anything.  It's just nasty 
> blather, and bad writing to boot.  (Bad beyond the misspelling and 
> other errors, I mean.)  Diagram that first sentence, for example, and 
> see if it even makes grammatical sense.  What does "bathos" refer to, 
> and who exactly is bathetic?  Similarly, what is he claiming that 
> Jorie Graham understands?  And Dana Gioia is "another case in 
> point"--of what, precisely?

Coming out of Corporate America into a place as a house niggah, the same 
way he thinks Jorie Graham did.  Nutty--except that Gioia clearly has 
been a careful careerist all his life. 


> That is, try to figure that out as soon as you get finished laughing 
> at an author who thinks "winds his lips around Laura Bush's labia" 
> means something. (*Winds* his lips?)  Just try to wrangle any of this 
> soggy mess of nastiness into an actual assertion about a single poet, 
> poem, or aesthetic opinion.   
>
> The whole article is not just crude in racial and sexual terms but in 
> thinking, or lack thereof.  "Crude" is too generous a label for such 
> spew.  
>
> Bob Grumman termed the article "hilarious" while acknowledging that 
> some of it is "unfair."  Yes, and sometimes Hitler was "unkind" to Jews.
>
Another brilliantly apt analogy from David!  Well, except that Parcelli 
isn't as obvious about wanting to exterminate the poets he discusses as 
I have been.  I'm not going to defend Parcelli.  As you all know, I'm 
weird (and evil), so I get a kick out of outright crude superficial bile 
like this.  Part of the comedy is imagining the author of this, and 
laughing both at him and at his victims.  Hey, I thought of a parallel 
from another arena I beat up on unfortunates in, Who Wrote Shakespeare 
studies, where some who believe Oxford wrote Shakespeare write stuff 
about their opponents like Parcelli's--and make me laugh even though I'm 
one of said opponents.  And he /does/ partly connect at times, as in the 
passage I quoted.  Say, about Alan Sondheim, who /has /been prolific, 
although I admire much of what he's produced.  Oh, and I doubt very many 
take the piece "seriously."  I certainly wouldn't quote him in one of my 
attacks on the establishment.


>>
>> *But the Field Nigga poet shares much of the blame for this 
>> situation. He's had the rebellion beaten out of him by himself. 
>> First, he aspires to the same sort of fame and recognition as the 
>> House Nigga poet, even though those rewards are largely a creation of 
>> the Slave Poetry Economy. This causes frustration on the part of the 
>> Field Nigga poets who attempt to break through. Some handle their 
>> disappointment with an odd mix of subservience and grace like Henry 
>> Gould. Others endear themselves by their grumpy, eccentricity like 
>> Bob Grumman. Still others overwhelm the system by sounding duller and 
>> more conformist than the Academic House Nigga poets themselves like 
>> Ron Silliman whose poetic product has been confused with legal briefs 
>> from product liability cases and pathological glossolalia. Then there 
>> are the technocrats, people handy with gadgets, like Allen Sondheim, 
>> who simply have seized upon the computer and internet after stints 
>> with Super 8, video, tape recorders et al and tried to force out a 
>> small niche for himself by flooding the plantation with every neural 
>> spasm his brain ever produced. Finally, there are just the Harry "Dr. 
>> Noodles" Nudel, a blind, untalented, idiot poser, without a drop of 
>> the wisdom, knowledge or the savvy of most Field Niggas.
>> *
>>
>> *I /do/ want the recognition the house niggas have gotten, but am not 
>> pushing for fame--just enough money to be able to concentrate on 
>> making poems and working on my other cultural projects.  I'm not sure 
>> what Parcelli thinks a poet should be doing--something to make our 
>> country more Marxist, no doubt.
>> *
>>
>> *--Bob*
>>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep  7 23:23:22 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon Sep  7 20:32:42 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
	<096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <4AA5CE2A.5000704@nut-n-but.net>

I think the real redneck would use "nigga," or would be thought to use 
that term by someone like Parcelli.  Dat's how southenas talks.  Or did.

I might add that everbody here be jealous 'cause Ah's the onliest boy 
here what is a nigga, 'cordin' to Carlo.

--Bob

From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  7 22:32:58 2009
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Mon Sep  7 20:40:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu>
	<4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

There's been already too much discussion on something so worthless.  There was after the first post.  Before the first post, even.

JohnJ



      
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  8 01:52:41 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  8 00:00:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu>
	<4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net> <4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net>
	<6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu>
	<4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but.net>
	<823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909072252w61d76375ycbc5f471660d4986@mail.gmail.com>

Me just catching up, John;now reading some of the latest, having deleted
unread the previous 20 messages on the thread.
It's fleetingly funny in places [that is, Parcelli's pieces that've been
presented here by several folk], reminds me of some writings [Eldridge
Cleaver comes to mind, his lovely "super masculine menial" label for
example] in the 1960s and 70s about the USAmerican entrenched racist
apparatus.  I've not read poetry by Silliman or several others Parcelli
mentions, so my ignorance leaves me guiltlessly smiling in places with his
descriptors---especially the one that captures our own endearing Grumminge
[Grumman + whinge].
Best,

Judy

2009/9/7 John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail@yahoo.com>

> There's been already too much discussion on something so worthless.  There
> was after the first post.  Before the first post, even.
>
> JohnJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  8 01:54:31 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  8 00:02:21 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Anthologist
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE3B1D667EEA-1F6C-1E61B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFE3B1D667EEA-1F6C-1E61B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909072254x4fd41444v87ac4eb958072530@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody here read it, can offer a critique?  I'm going broke ordering books,
even the inexpensive ones from amazon.  Sounds intriguing.
Best,

Judy

2009/9/7 <jforjames@aol.com>

> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/books/2009807927_br06anthologist.html
> "The Anthologist"
> by Nicholas Baker
> Simon & Schuster, 256 pp., $25
>
> In the brisk and entertaining "The Anthologist," Nicholson Baker tackles
> what might seem a daunting task. He writes a completely successful novel
> about poetry
>  His protagonist, 55-year-old poet Paul Chowder, is not having the same
> luck.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  8 02:05:27 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  8 00:13:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <4AA5CE2A.5000704@nut-n-but.net>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
	<096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC>
	<4AA5CE2A.5000704@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909072305o1fe44c27nc0f2ead498aff346@mail.gmail.com>

My guess is that it's incredibly offensive to black folk to hear/read a
non-black's attempt at sounding like what they think black folk did or do
sound like.
So quit it; it's not cute.

Best,

Judy

2009/9/7 Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>

> I think the real redneck would use "nigga," or would be thought to use that
> term by someone like Parcelli.  Dat's how southenas talks.  Or did.
>
> I might add that everbody here be jealous 'cause Ah's the onliest boy here
> what is a nigga, 'cordin' to Carlo.
>
> --Bob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  8 02:24:10 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Tue Sep  8 00:32:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisville conference
In-Reply-To: <4AA42C41.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>
References: <4AA42C41.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909072324p60c6f976o3e5532979fa03ea5@mail.gmail.com>

If I had a single thing to enlighten the conference-attenders with, Alan,
I'd propose it---primarily because I so enjoy your writing and analyses,
including this presentation [below] of what you and your conference-planners
look for.  [Having ended two clauses with prepositions, I should be quoting
Churchill but you know the quote so I won't]
The only Awesome Bits [I say, generously] I might contribute are about
events in England 400 years before your cut-off date of 1900, alas.  <g>
 Another conference, p'raps, Alan?

Is St. Louis as freezing and snow-ridden as Chicago in February?

Best and thank you,

Judy

2009/9/6 Alan C Golding <acgold01@louisville.edu>

> Hi, Judy,
>
> I know that this is the sort of useless injunction that can drive people
> crazy when they read it from, say, a magazine editor ("we try to publish the
> best work blah blah blah"), but it really does apply: if you're interested
> in coming, I'd invite you to send what *you* consider your best work.  Not
> all proposals are accepted, of course.  On the critical side of things,
> anything from 1900 to the present is fair game.  Generally I think people
> consider it a pretty strong poetry conference, because I try to cluster
> proposals and sequence panels in a way that makes some sense (to me,
> anyway).  Poetry papers / panels have leaned historically more in the
> Objectivist / New American / Langpo and related directions, partly because
> that's where my own interests and connections reside.  But "leaned" is not
> meant to imply exclusiveness: in just the last couple of years, for
> instance, I can remember papers and panels on Julia Alvarez, Louise Gluck,
> Julian Bond, and many modernists from t!
> he more to the less canonical--quite a range really.  People can propose
> pre-arranged panels, so some New-Po folks could put your heads together if
> you felt so inclined.  And it's not uncommon for presenters to do
> "alternative" presentations, however one might define that.  Quite a few
> poet-critics, which always pleases me.
>
> We run concurrent "critical" and "creative" panels (yes, I know, but this
> probably isn't the time and place to get into that particular binary).
>  While I have input into the featured speakers, I don't have any input into
> the individual creative panels; the selections there, from my p-o-v, tend
> more toward (again, excuse the crude shorthand) the "mainstream" than not.
>
> We have a house rule that conference committee members don't deliver talks
> (thus opening more spots for others), so I've ever given a couple of papers
> at the conference on an emergency basis to fill out panels.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 03:18:40 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  8 01:26:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Translating the Already Translated
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909080018h42f9b1d2o4fa6c30f769c311c@mail.gmail.com>

yes,

*Variations on the Translation by ...
*
is the minimum required if you wish to come out of this pastiche in a lean
way.
About Pound, he did not work on previous translations, he simply invented as
much as he could by sticking to what he knew.
He also had among his many correspondents several eastern scholars and
probably picked up much from them, besides his commitment with Fenellosa's
unpublished papers and his extensive self-taught studies in Chinese.

I would not like to compare some crap with Pound. For further enlightenment:
http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/ezra_pound_chinese.html

We shall see that he expressly disassociates himself from "scholarship",
which he is likely to view as smothering the art of translation, rather than
making a contribution to it.




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From brian_tuney at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 05:43:51 2009
From: brian_tuney at yahoo.com (Brian Hawkins)
Date: Tue Sep  8 03:51:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Anthologist
In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0909072254x4fd41444v87ac4eb958072530@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <831948.14810.qm@web34208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You can hear an entertaining interview with the author, including a short reading from the book at? http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bookshow/? (look for the episode that went to air on Friday September 4th).? It sounds like a terrific book!

Brian

--- On Tue, 8/9/09, Judy Prince <jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote:

From: Judy Prince <jbalizsprince@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Anthologist
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Received: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009, 3:54 PM

Anybody here read it, can offer a critique? ?I'm going broke ordering books, even the inexpensive ones from amazon. ?Sounds intriguing.
Best,
Judy


2009/9/7  <jforjames@aol.com>

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/books/2009807927_br06anthologist.html


"The Anthologist"


by Nicholas Baker


Simon & Schuster, 256 pp., $25


?


In the brisk and entertaining "The Anthologist," Nicholson Baker tackles what might seem a daunting task. He writes a completely successful novel about poetry




His protagonist, 55-year-old poet Paul Chowder, is not having the same luck.

_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 06:02:30 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  8 04:10:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Translating the Already Translated
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909080018h42f9b1d2o4fa6c30f769c311c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909080018h42f9b1d2o4fa6c30f769c311c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909080302p30e17d28l23a15acad242cd0f@mail.gmail.com>

logically "lean" is "clean"
lost the c somewhere. Thank you, Anny

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini@gmail.com>wrote:

> yes,
>
> *Variations on the Translation by ...
> *
> is the minimum required if you wish to come out of this pastiche in a lean
> way.
> About Pound, he did not work on previous translations, he simply invented
> as much as he could by sticking to what he knew.
> He also had among his many correspondents several eastern scholars and
> probably picked up much from them, besides his commitment with Fenellosa's
> unpublished papers and his extensive self-taught studies in Chinese.
>
> I would not like to compare some crap with Pound. For further
> enlightenment:
> http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/ezra_pound_chinese.html
>
> We shall see that he expressly disassociates himself from "scholarship",
> which he is likely to view as smothering the art of translation, rather than
> making a contribution to it.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  8 08:13:15 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  8 05:21:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu><4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but
	.net> <823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AA64A5B.3000504@nut-n-but.net>

John Jeffrey wrote:
> There's been already too much discussion on something so worthless.  
> There was after the first post.  Before the first post, even.
>
> JohnJ
Why is it worthless, John?  What makes your subjective, unsupported view 
not worthless?  (I mean, everyone here knows that you know the massa's 
always right.)

Bob


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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 08:01:10 2009
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Tue Sep  8 06:09:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <4AA64A5B.3000504@nut-n-but.net>
References: <2DAA5438-7DDC-4595-9DE6-4CAED3568009@ripon.edu><4AA463B6.2020305@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70909062328u34deef78p13e14505
	d76f6247@mail.gmail.com><4AA5498F.6050505@nut-n-but.net><6CE61EBF-3A03-40DD-87E0-089043DC5718@ripon.edu><4AA5CC27.700@nut-n-but
	.net> <823791.69014.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4AA64A5B.3000504@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <717700.44537.qm@web54102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



[This is me not responding to your worthless post.]





________________________________
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 8:13:15 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic

John Jeffrey wrote: 
There's
>been already too much discussion on something so worthless.  There was
>after the first post.  Before >the first post, even.
>
>>JohnJ
>
Why is it worthless, John?  What makes your subjective, unsupported
view not worthless?  (I mean, everyone here knows that you know the
massa's always right.)

Bob


      
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  8 09:49:26 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  8 07:57:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Do you know sijo?
Message-ID: <8CBFEA250CC1A68-4E6C-22EEF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/articles/2009/06/30/the_sijo_poetry_form_captures_a_harvard_professor8217s_imagination/? 

Why, McCann wondered, couldn?t the three-line Korean sijo that he loves enjoy the same widespread recognition as the three-line, 17-syllable haiku?

?

Three of David McCann?s sijos 

With that, McCann, a poet and professor of Korean literature, embarked on a mission. He is the founder and chief marketing officer of a campaign to popularize the sijo (pronounced SHEE-jo), a traditional poem of 43 to 45 syllables whose third line contains a twist on the theme developed in the first two.



& a sijo contest...
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/gallery/sijocontest/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  8 11:50:05 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep  8 08:58:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0909072305o1fe44c27nc0f2ead498aff346@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com><096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC><4AA5CE2A
	.5000704@nut-n-but.net>
	<7db1d01b0909072305o1fe44c27nc0f2ead498aff346@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>

Judy Prince wrote:
> My guess is that it's incredibly offensive to black folk to hear/read 
> a non-black's attempt at sounding like what they think black folk did 
> or do sound like.
>
> So quit it; it's not cute.
>

Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I 
think the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs 
over 90. I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots to be 
protected 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used to.  But 
Ah stop here, 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.

Amos



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 11:06:08 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue Sep  8 09:14:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com>
	<096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC>
	<7db1d01b0909072305o1fe44c27nc0f2ead498aff346@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909080806g7d20e27av83285b6279ad32a@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, Bob.  You're really torpedoing your credibility.  Keep it up.

Why not read what Judy said before you respond to it?  Are you really *that
*ignorant of history?

Jeff Newberry

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

> Judy Prince wrote:
>
>> My guess is that it's incredibly offensive to black folk to hear/read a
>> non-black's attempt at sounding like what they think black folk did or do
>> sound like.
>>
>> So quit it; it's not cute.
>>
>>
> Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I think
> the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs over 90.
> I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots to be protected
> 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used to.  But Ah stop here,
> 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.
>
> Amos
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 11:20:30 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep  8 09:28:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

But in what context did Shakespeare and Shaw reproduce the dialect? ?Via story or as adopted personas on a listserv intended for discussions of poetics? ? Call me a prude, but I wouldn't walk around my campus in black face simply because I know what the implications are. ?
Amy
p.s. ?the assumption that the call to quit is "to protect black folks" is a bit of leap, no??

_______




Amy's Alias

http://amyking.org/

--- On Tue, 9/8/09, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 11:50 AM

Judy Prince wrote:
> My guess is that it's incredibly offensive to black folk to hear/read a non-black's attempt at sounding like what they think black folk did or do sound like.
> 
> So quit it; it's not cute.
> 

Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.? I think the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs over 90. I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots to be protected 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used to.? But Ah stop here, 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.

Amos






      
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  8 11:45:28 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue Sep  8 09:53:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48BA39D9CC0F4F089DFCF986800A2DFA@RobinLaptopPC>

<<
But in what context did Shakespeare and Shaw reproduce the dialect?  Via 
story or as adopted personas on a listserv intended for discussions of 
poetics?   Call me a prude, but I wouldn't walk around my campus in black 
face simply because I know what the implications are.

Amy
>>

Mostly, Shakespeare used stage Irishisms (and Welsh and Scottish), most 
notably in _Henry V_.  The one exception of authentic dialect speech is the 
"che vor ye" passage by Edgar-as-countryman in _King Lear_.  Ben Jonson is a 
better source for actual London and Elizabethan/Jacobean otherwhere street 
speech.

As for Shaw ... I'd like Bob to give an example of this.  Seems to me Shaw's 
linguistic abilities didn't run in that direction.

... and as for Aristophanes, I leave comment on this to those with more 
Greek than me, but _The Birds_ was translated into Lallans as _The Burdies_, 
for what that's worth.  (Written by Douglas Young in 1959 but not produced 
on stage till 1966.)

Robin



From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 11:56:48 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep  8 10:04:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I'd add that the world spins on with a number of bitter, bitter people crying out for something now and then. ?My guess is Carlo P would like some sort of relief from his envy and bitterness .... something. ? But like most addictions, they can't be shaken until the addict shifts focus back and wants relief for himself -- so the lashing out continues, possibly until he dies a bitter mad man. ?There's no joy in this guy's life, only snowballing anger, and no poet or poetry will ever be good enough for him, except a long-dead one. ?If Pound were alive, he would have made the essay too, no doubt. ?
Plus while it's got transparent, simplistic-minded shock value, it's a pretty weak metaphor -- there is no true master in poetry, despite the rumors about the validity of being published, and that's poetry's beauty and hallmark. ?
Robert Graves, "There's no money in poetry, but then there's no poetry in money, either."
Not just "money," one could say the same about universal acceptance or having one's worked liked by all, or even placing it in the context of one school of thought ...
Critics have often placed Susan Howe's worked in the Language Poets' camp; Susan Howe herself has said many times to me that she is not a Language poet. ?What's the truth? ?Do those declarations change her poems? ???

--- On Mon, 9/7/09, jforjames@aol.com ?wrote:
Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when?the item?is connected to the name?Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:


"Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful?people."


(I would?add the modifer?'self-inflated' to?the aptly?put?'fucking loon' appellation) 

Finnegan




-----Original Message-----

From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>

Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic






Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he wrote.?
??


      
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 12:03:05 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue Sep  8 10:10:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909080903q3ec9a1d4l8abddd90799c5db5@mail.gmail.com>

All categories are arbitrary. But categorizationmay change the attitudes of
some folks toward
what is categorized: e.g. "All poetry is spinach,
and I say the hell with it."

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:56 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Critics have often placed Susan Howe's worked in the Language Poets' camp;
> Susan Howe herself has said many times to me that she is not a Language
> poet.  What's the truth?  Do those declarations change her poems?
>
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  8 12:03:56 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  8 10:11:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
	<574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1Ml3Aq-0001bI-Q2@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Let me expand on this a bit.

Context is all. Shakespeare, Shaw, et al, were writing for an 
audience with different expectations. A measure of that difference is 
the response you're getting here.

A couple of anecdotes. Like most Jews I tell Jewish jokes on 
occasion, mit hexent. I'm allowed to, because I'm Jewish. I only know 
one person who doesn't get this--a non-Jew who tells Jewish jokes and 
doesn't realize how uncomfortable that makes his Jewish listeners.

I was on the other side of that once. My ex-wife came from Ashville 
North Carolina, in the heart of the Appalachians. Go back three 
generations and some of her forebears were Mountain, the 
politically-correct term for hillbillies. But that was in the past. 
One grandfather was a Presbyterian minister, the other was vice 
president of a railroad who had married into Charleston high society. 
Her father was a cardiologist, her sister a medical researcher at 
Duke, her brother headmaster of an exclusive prep-school. That 
brother used to tell Mountain dialect jokes--several generations 
later he was still entitled. A couple of times I referred, jokingly, 
to the family as hillbillies and to my ex as a wildwood flower--they 
were so far from the caste identification  that I didn't think it 
still mattered, and I didn't understand the sudden cooling. My wife 
explained it to me, I apologized and all was well.

One deals with this constantly in translation. Years ago a friend of 
mine hired a scholar to translate Lydia Cabrera's El Monte, the great 
book on afro-cuban religion. It's ethnography, and she quotes her 
informants at length. Many of them speak bozal, a rural black 
dialect. This idiot translator decided that American black dialect as 
he understood it was an equivalent. There are no equivalent 
dialects--they express different histories and social roles--the best 
one can do is informal English and a footnote. And the original was 
not Cabrera's voice, but that of her informants, and the transcribed 
dialect was an important piece of ethnographic information; in the 
translatoon it was merely an artifact of the translation. It was also 
highly offensive. A passage in which a mother calls her son sticks in 
memory: "Niggah, git yo black ass down heah." Oy. The translator was fired.

Here's a test case. Go to your local Italian Social Club and try 
reciting T.A. Daly's Mia Carlotta: "Giuseppe, da barber, ees greata 
for "mash," / He gotta da bigga, da blacka mustache,/ Good clo'es an' 
good styla an' playnta good cash," etc.

Bottom line, imitating downward is usually a very bad idea--the 
practice usually contains generations of pain.

Sometimes special permission is given, but it rarely covers much 
geography. I can make Mexican jokes among my Mexican friends because 
I've passed years of social tests. I can't make them at large to 
Mexicans I don't know very very well.

Best,

Mark


At 11:20 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote:
>But in what context did Shakespeare and Shaw reproduce the 
>dialect?  Via story or as adopted personas on a listserv intended 
>for discussions of poetics?   Call me a prude, but I wouldn't walk 
>around my campus in black face simply because I know what the 
>implications are.
>
>Amy
>
>p.s.  the assumption that the call to quit is "to protect black 
>folks" is a bit of leap, no?
>
>
>_______
>
>
>Amy's Alias
>http://amyking.org/
>
>--- On Tue, 9/8/09, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 11:50 AM
>
>Judy Prince wrote:
> > My guess is that it's incredibly offensive to black folk to 
> hear/read a non-black's attempt at sounding like what they think 
> black folk did or do sound like.
> >
> > So quit it; it's not cute.
> >
>
>Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I 
>think the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with 
>IQs over 90. I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots 
>to be protected 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used 
>to.  But Ah stop here, 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.
>
>Amos
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep  8 12:28:59 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue Sep  8 10:36:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Talk like a nigger . . ."
Message-ID: <C6CBF07B.84ED%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Talk
 
like a nigger, my white friend, M, said,
after my M.L.K. and Ronald Reagan impersonations,
the two of us alone and shirtless in the locker room,
 
and if you're thinking my knuckles knocked
a few times against his jaw or my fingers knotted
at his throat, you're wrong because I pretended
 
I didn't hear him, and when he didn't ask it again,
we slipped into our middle school uniforms
since it was November, the beginning
 
of basketball season, and jogged out
onto the court to play together
in that vision all Americans wish for
 
their children, and the point is we slipped
into our uniform harmony, and spit out Go Team!,
our hands stacked on and beneath the hands
 
of our teammates and that was as close
as I have come to passing for one
of the members of The Dream, my white friend
 
thinking I was so far from that word
that he could say it to me, which I guess
he could since I didn't let him taste the salt
 
and iron in the blood, I didn't teach him
what it's like to squint through a black eye,
and if I had I wonder if he would have grown
 
up to be the kind of white man who believes
all blacks are thugs or if he would have learned
to bite his tongue or let his belly be filled
 
by shame, but more importantly, would I be
the kind of black man who believes silence
is worth more than talk or that it can be
 
a kind of grace, though I'm not sure
that's the kind of black man I've become,
and in any case, M, wherever you are,
 
I'd just like to say I heard it, but let it go,
because I was afraid to lose our friendship
or afraid we'd lose the game--which we did anyway.
 
--Terrance Hayes.  Wind in a Box.  Penguin, 2006.
 

-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================



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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  8 12:50:47 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue Sep  8 10:59:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1Ml3Aq-0001bI-Q2@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net><574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<E1Ml3Aq-0001bI-Q2@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <555BBC1C6A2742D491D9DFDE5991298D@RobinLaptopPC>

Mark said:

> Context is all. Shakespeare, Shaw, et al, were writing for an audience 
> with different expectations. A measure of that difference is the response 
> you're getting here.

Um ...  I miss the absence of the plural forms in both the above sentences. 
Not only has Bob elicited more than one response (though the consensus would 
seem to be against him) but you had more than one Renaissance English 
dramatist writing in more than several ways for varying audiences.

I wonder how James the VI and I would have responded to the 
stage-Scotticisms of _Henry V_?

Marlowe may kill off his Jewish protagonist in _The Jew of Malta_, but at 
least Barabas dies cursing rather than weakly capitulating to The Man in the 
way that Shylock does.

Bit like the difference between field slaves and house slaves, that.

Which is one of the more than several problems I have with Parcelli's 
diatribe -- maybe there's a bit of mileage in analogising house and field 
slaves to kinds of poets, but he goes on and on and *on with the analogy, 
bulldozing it to death.  So to speak.

Malcolm X, in a different context, and the first, as far as I've found out, 
to extend the house/field slave idea analogically to the present, does it 
more powerfully and succinctly ...

My quarrel with Bob is that he's apparently simply wrong in several 
instances, and not least when he says, 'I think the real redneck would use 
"nigga"- -- if anything, "nigga" carries the opposite weight, coined by 
blacks and used more by blacks than whites.  And Bob's stretch of black 
speech hit my ear as Joel Chandler Harris at third remove, just the opposite 
of Parcelli's all-too-up-to-the-minute echo of current black rappers.

But to return to Renaissance England, and what should be written and who 
writes it (or says it), the closest analogy to the areas of exclusion and 
offence around black speech in America today would be the way in which 
gypsies, so called, are presented.  Not least because the earliest examples 
of criminal cant in England are presented by non-cant speakers -- you have 
to go as far on from 1550 to about 1710 before there's any cant presented 
(admittedly in written form even then) by "authentic" cant speakers.

For better or worse, in a similar fashion, what we have of nineteenth 
century black speech is found in Joel Chandler Harris and Mark Twain and 
Harriet Beecher Stowe.  Much as Stowe makes my teeth grind, I find her less 
offensive than the translation of Nat Turner's language into the register of 
the middle class white New York reporter who wrote down his confession on 
the eve of his execution.  They not only hanged Turner, but they managed to 
abolish his language.

Mark further says:

> This idiot translator decided that American black dialect as he understood 
> it was an equivalent. There are no equivalent dialects--they express 
> different histories and social roles--the best one can do is informal 
> English and a footnote. And the original was not Cabrera's voice, but that 
> of her informants, and the transcribed dialect was an important piece of 
> ethnographic information; in the translatoon it was merely an artifact of 
> the translation. It was also highly offensive. A passage in which a mother 
> calls her son sticks in memory: "Niggah, git yo black ass down heah." Oy. 
> The translator was fired.

I like that, "There are no equivalent dialects" -- except that as a veteran 
of the Glasgow Language Wars of the sixties, I find the use of the term 
"dialect" Deeply Offensive in this context.  As bad as transcribing Glasgow 
speech using apostrophes.  <g>

Robin 


From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 12:53:44 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep  8 11:01:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909080903q3ec9a1d4l8abddd90799c5db5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <532529.44772.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

For those who fully believe and put their trust in categories to begin with...?
Though I've been taught of their leafy greenness, I didn't let this stop me; the one today tasted like light. ?


--- On Tue, 9/8/09, Halvard Johnson ?wrote:
All categories are arbitrary. But categorizationmay change the attitudes of some folks towardwhat is categorized: e.g. "All poetry is spinach,and I say the hell with it."

Hal
"The days are wonderful and the nights 
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?--Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 

http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org






On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:56 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:

Critics have often placed Susan Howe's worked in the Language Poets' camp; Susan Howe herself has said many times to me that she is not a Language poet. ?What's the truth? ?Do those declarations change her poems? ?


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



      
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  8 12:59:27 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  8 11:07:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <555BBC1C6A2742D491D9DFDE5991298D@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
	<574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<E1Ml3Aq-0001bI-Q2@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<555BBC1C6A2742D491D9DFDE5991298D@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <E1Ml42Y-0001G8-2q@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 12:50 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:
>Mark said:
>
>>Context is all. Shakespeare, Shaw, et al, were writing for an 
>>audience with different expectations. A measure of that difference 
>>is the response you're getting here.
>
>Um ...  I miss the absence of the plural forms in both the above 
>sentences. Not only has Bob elicited more than one response (though 
>the consensus would seem to be against him) but you had more than 
>one Renaissance English dramatist writing in more than several ways 
>for varying audiences.
>
>I wonder how James the VI and I would have responded to the 
>stage-Scotticisms of _Henry V_?
>
>Marlowe may kill off his Jewish protagonist in _The Jew of Malta_, 
>but at least Barabas dies cursing rather than weakly capitulating to 
>The Man in the way that Shylock does.


Which is why I've always liked The Jew of Malta--at least he takes a 
bunch of mealy-mouthed Christian hypocrites with him.

>>This idiot translator decided that American black dialect as he 
>>understood it was an equivalent. There are no equivalent 
>>dialects--they express different histories and social roles--the 
>>best one can do is informal English and a footnote. And the 
>>original was not Cabrera's voice, but that of her informants, and 
>>the transcribed dialect was an important piece of ethnographic 
>>information; in the translatoon it was merely an artifact of the 
>>translation. It was also highly offensive. A passage in which a 
>>mother calls her son sticks in memory: "Niggah, git yo black ass 
>>down heah." Oy. The translator was fired.
>
>I like that, "There are no equivalent dialects" -- except that as a 
>veteran of the Glasgow Language Wars of the sixties, I find the use 
>of the term "dialect" Deeply Offensive in this context.  As bad as 
>transcribing Glasgow speech using apostrophes.  <g>

My dialect is American Standard, tho I'm reasonably fluent in a 
couple of others.

A language is a dialect with an army.

Mark

Mark


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 13:19:36 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep  8 11:27:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909081019m12c54b6etb5337a4cc2b6ec64@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for this.
I'd give Parcelli a chance, though. Even if he hits hard on some people I
value.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:56 PM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd add that the world spins on with a number of bitter, bitter people
> crying out for something now and then.  My guess is Carlo P would like some
> sort of relief from his envy and bitterness .... something.   But like most
> addictions, they can't be shaken until the addict shifts focus back and
> wants relief for himself -- so the lashing out continues, possibly until he
> dies a bitter mad man.  There's no joy in this guy's life, only snowballing
> anger, and no poet or poetry will ever be good enough for him, except a
> long-dead one.  If Pound were alive, he would have made the essay too, no
> doubt.
> Plus while it's got transparent, simplistic-minded shock value, it's a
> pretty weak metaphor -- there is no true master in poetry, despite the
> rumors about the validity of being published, and that's poetry's beauty and
> hallmark.
>
> Robert Graves, "There's no money in poetry, but then there's no poetry in
> money, either."
>
> Not just "money," one could say the same about universal acceptance or
> having one's worked liked by all, or even placing it in the context of one
> school of thought ...
>
> Critics have often placed Susan Howe's worked in the Language Poets' camp;
> Susan Howe herself has said many times to me that she is not a Language
> poet.  What's the truth?  Do those declarations change her poems?
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 9/7/09, jforjames@aol.com * wrote:
>
> Bob, sometimes it's best not share. Esp. when the item is connected to the
> name Parcelli. Or give us the URL with warning:
> "Content likely objectionable to considerate & thoughtful people."
> (I would add the modifer 'self-inflated' to the aptly put 'fucking loon'
> appellation)
> Finnegan
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
> Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
>
>  Also, I've never interacted with Parcelli directly, but I can't seem to
> shake the feeling that he's a fucking loon every time i see something he
> wrote.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 13:55:44 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Tue Sep  8 12:03:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anti-Establishment Polemic
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909080903q3ec9a1d4l8abddd90799c5db5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CBFE017747215A-2FC8-1BC6A@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>
	<722230.46061.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<f160a1210909080903q3ec9a1d4l8abddd90799c5db5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909081055i54d8c496m2c2a71ecac35e944@mail.gmail.com>

it is fashion is spinach, Elizabeth Hawes


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com> wrote:

> All categories are arbitrary. But categorizationmay change the attitudes
> of some folks toward
> what is categorized: e.g. "All poetry is spinach,
> and I say the hell with it."
>
> Hal
>
> "The days are wonderful and the nights
> are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
>                    --Gertrude Stein
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:56 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Critics have often placed Susan Howe's worked in the Language Poets' camp;
>> Susan Howe herself has said many times to me that she is not a Language
>> poet.  What's the truth?  Do those declarations change her poems?
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  8 14:05:02 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue Sep  8 12:13:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1Ml42Y-0001G8-2q@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net><574255.80687.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><E1Ml3Aq-0001bI-Q2@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net><555BBC1C6A2742D491D9DFDE5991298D@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1Ml42Y-0001G8-2q@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7A900DA5612F4BDA9D686F661B8D932F@RobinLaptopPC>

Mark said:

> My dialect is American Standard, tho I'm reasonably fluent in a couple of 
> others.

You mean you have only one?

I can live with that, seeing, say, Received Standard English as one dialect 
of English of which American Standard would be another and Applachian and 
West Side Edinburgh two others.

> A language is a dialect with an army.

It's the privileging of the dialect with the largest navy which is the 
problem.

Maybe this conundrum is peculiar to Scotland -- English English and Scottish 
English diverged sometime between The Brus and The Wallace, so Scots (of all 
varieties of dialect) isn't a dialect of English English (of any variety).

I'm less hyper on this than I was, thus does age mellow us, but I still 
wouldn't let my daughter marry an apostrophe.

More seriously, the language/dialect hierarchy is cut across by the various 
registers within individual dialects.  Received Standard Scots is closer to 
Received Standard English than, say, broad Yorkshire is to Received Standard 
English.

Or something.

I'm not sure I'm clear on this, even to myself, at this particular moment.

Ulp!!

Robin 


From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  8 14:06:29 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  8 12:19:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leonard Cohen's The Book of Longing
Message-ID: <8CBFEC638757D28-1C28-16E84@webmail-d019.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.bookslut.com/fascinating_writers/2009_09_015112.php



The Book of Longing was given to me by a lover with whom I share a poetic worldview: the struggle to see light above doom. Both of us are prone to melancholy, but we subscribe to Leonard Cohen's truth: "There is a crack, a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in." 



It's taken us years to come to this kind of grace, and we've a long way to go. Leonard said the lyric was "the closest thing I could describe as a credo. That idea is one of the fundamental positions behind a lot of the songs."

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Sep  8 18:35:33 2009
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com)
Date: Tue Sep  8 16:43:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
Message-ID: <d33.5e8f5b72.37d83635@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/8/2009 9:50:40 AM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I 
> think the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs 
> over 90. I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots to be 
> protected 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used to.  But 
> Ah stop here, 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.
> 
> Amos
Back down, Bob.  For once.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Sep  8 18:49:01 2009
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com)
Date: Tue Sep  8 16:56:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
Message-ID: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/8/2009 10:46:23 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> Mostly, Shakespeare used stage Irishisms (and Welsh and Scottish), most 
> notably in _Henry V_.  The one exception of authentic dialect speech is 
> the 
> "che vor ye" passage by Edgar-as-countryman in _King Lear_.  Ben Jonson is 
> a 
> better source for actual London and Elizabethan/Jacobean otherwhere street 
> 
> speech.

Glendower spoke "excellent Welsh" as I recall.  Meaning "nonsense."  But 
that's not the same as attempting African-American dialect these days.  Bob, 
who doesn't recognize lines, has crossed over one.  Incidentally, I agree 
with David that the original Parcelli piece isn't worth considering.  Who cares 
who represents the "establishment" anyway?  Most poet I know are AWP 
members, teach for a living, and want to be published--somehow, somewhere.  Does 
this make them different from any poet who have ever lived?  So what?  
There's always going to be a "power structure" that all "outsiders" want to 
demonize.  Rightly?  Well, maybe so in lots of cases but WTF--if you write to 
please yourself and a certain group of readers, you can't go wrong.  If some 
poets have been lucking in "a certain group of readers" who have some kind of 
pull, well, just get on with it.  Demonizing Gioia is one example: he's a 
good and longtime friend, but I still haven't had a grant from the NEA, which I 
could certainly put to good use.  Maybe Bob should just subscribe to some 
kind of Darwinian scheme of things in which species that want to be 
marginalized end up that way.  Bob never makes much of a case for what is vital about 
the type of poetry he supports.  About even why it should be considered 
poetry (as opposed to a form of visual art), fer chrissakes.

I've been marginalized through the years--because I write formal verse and 
write light verse.  So what? I don't expect to convert Phil Levine or John 
Ashbery with my poems.  They're just there for those who care to read them.

Sam
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  8 19:30:31 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep  8 17:38:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <d33.5e8f5b72.37d83635@cs.com>
References: <d33.5e8f5b72.37d83635@cs.com>
Message-ID: <E1MlA91-0002B5-Lu@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

It's a question of appropriateness.

About halfway down the Baja California peninsula is the town of 
Guerrero Negro. It's a desolate, shadeless place in the middle of one 
of the harsher deserts--one street running from the only north-south 
paved road to the salt flats that are the town's raison 
d'etre--surviving on the salt pans, a few motels, and the 
whale-watchers who come to see the gray whales in the lagoon.

I've been there several times. Last time I passed through I bought a 
wonderful t-shirt with a picture of a breaching whale and the name of 
the town emblazoned across it. I still have it--it hasn't gotten much 
wear. When I returned to the States I realized that there weren't too 
many places where a very white man could get away with a shirt that 
labels him a "Black Warrior."

Mark

At 06:35 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:
>In a message dated 9/8/2009 9:50:40 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net writes:
>>
>>Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I
>>think the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs
>>over 90. I also think it racist to believe po' black folk gots to be
>>protected 'gainst hearin' fun made of how they talks, or used to.  But
>>Ah stop here, 'cause Ah knows the massa don' like it.
>>
>>Amos
>
>Back down, Bob.  For once.
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 20:13:44 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep  8 18:21:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] HOWL ! Festival 2009 Schedule [on behalf of Nathaniel
	Siegel]
Message-ID: <242566.95999.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


??Thursday Sept 10th, 2009 8pm to 10pm
Poetry Turn On ! A HOWL! Festival Event Hosted by Nathaniel Siegel
Parish Hall at St. Mark?s Church in the Bowery
131 East 10th Street @ Second Avenue
Suggested donation $10.00 to benefit the HOWL ! HELP Fund.
Advance tickets:?http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/79375Tickets also available, cash only, at the door.?Come hear poets from The Bowery Poetry Club, Cave Canem,
A Gathering of the Tribes, Nuyorican Poets Cafe, and The Poetry Project.?
Scheduled to read and perform: From?The Bowery Poetry Club:poets Eliel Lucero, Lynne Procope, Shappy Seasholtz, Jean Ann Verlee.
From?Cave Canem: poets E. J. Antonio, Evan Burton, Juliet Howard,
Nicole Sealey, Camille Rankine.?From?A Gathering of the Tribes:poets Steve Cannon, Steve Dalachinsky,Yuko Otomo, Amy Ouzoonian,Chavisa Woods.?From?Nuyorican Poets Cafe: poets Samuel Diaz,Daniel Gallant, Carlos Andres Gomez, Mariposa.?From?The Poetry Project:poets Jim Behrle, MacGregor Card, Paul Foster Johnson, Patricia Spears Jones.?More info:?http://eastvillagehowler.blogspot.com/2009/08/poetry-turn-on.html??September 15th, 2009 8pmEverything Is Known: Ginsberg and Teaching
Parish Hall at St. Mark's Church in the Bowery
131 East 10th Street, New York City
$10. Contribution at the door to benefit ?HOWL ! Emergency Life Project?Advance tickets:?http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/79376Tickets also available, cash only, at the door.
Howl Festival ?09 presents?a panel and open discussion on Allen Ginsberg and teaching. The panelists include poets and writers who have worked with Ginsberg, studied with him, and gone on to teach others. The panelists are: Eliot Katz, Andy Clausen, Steven Taylor, Brenda Coultas, Anselm Berrigan, David Carter, and Bob Rosenthal.?More info:?http://eastvillagehowler.blogspot.com/2009/08/everything-is-known-ginsberg-and.html??Thursday, September 17, 7:00 PM
HOWL ! ARTS PROJECT 2009: FILM SERIES presents?Allen Ginsberg on Film
The Millennium Film Workshop,
66 East 4th Street, NY NY 10003.
Programs are subject to change.
Advance Tickets:?www.brownpapertickets.com/event/79647
Admission: $10?to benefit the HOWL ! HELP Fund.Allen Ginsberg on Film: Screen Test, Couch, Wholly Communion, Pull My Daisy

Introduction by Callie Angell, Adjunct Curator, The Andy Warhol Film Project, Whitney Museum of American Art:
SCREEN TEST, 1966, directed by Andy Warhol. Cast: Allen Ginsberg. B/W, silent, 4 min. 16mm print courtesy of The Museum of Modern Art Circulating Film Library.?
A portrait of Allen Ginsberg filmed by Andy Warhol on December 4, 1966. This was one of the very last of the hundreds of screen tests that Warhol shot of well-known personalities from the poetry, music, fashion, film, and other creative worlds that visited his famous Factory.
COUCH, 1964, directed by Andy Warhol. Cast: Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso, Peter Orlovsky, and others. B/W, silent, 52 min. 16mm print courtesy of The Museum of Modern Art Circulating Film Library.
?Warhol had filmed Ginsberg once before in 1964 when he shot several rolls of a historic gathering of Ginsberg and his fellow Beats Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso, and Peter Orlovsky hanging out in and around the Factory couch.? (Callie Angell)
Introduction by Paul Cronin, author, filmmaker and historian:
WHOLLY COMMUNION, 1965, Peter Whitehead. Cast: Gregory Corso, Harry Fanlight, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg, Michael Horovitz, Ernst Jandl, Christopher Logue, Adrian Mitchell, Alexander Trocchi. B/W, sound, 35 min. 16mm print courtesy of The New York Public Library, with the permission of Peter Whitehead and [distributor].
?Peter Whitehead captures the unexpected, the intensity and the excitement of a Happening, as 7000 people jam into London?s Albert Hall on June 11, 1965 for four hours of poetry reading by many Beat poets.? (New York Public Library Catalogue)
Excerpts from?IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE IMAGE: CONVERSATIONS WITH PETER WHITEHEAD, 2006, directed by Paul Cronin. Cast: Peter Whitehead. B/W and color, sound. DVD courtesy of Paul Cronin.
Historian/filmmaker Paul Cronin interviews Peter Whitehead, the filmmaker of WHOLLY COMMUNION, about the significance of this unique Beat poetry event.
PULL MY DAISY, 1959, directed by Robert Frank and Alfred Leslie. Cast: Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Corso, Larry Rivers, Peter Orlovsky, David Amram, Richard Bellamy, Alice Neel, Sally Gross, Pablo Frank, Denise Parker, Delphine Seyrig, Jack Kerouac (narrator), Music by David Amram. B/W, sound, 29 min. 16mm print courtesy Museum of Fine Arts, Houston.
?PULL MY DAISY is a classic look at the soul of the beat generation, made with writers Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, and painters Alfred Lesllie, Larry Rivers, and Alice Neel. It was written and narrated by Kerouac, based on his unproduced play ?The Beat Generation.? It tells the story of a bishop (Richard Bellamy) and his mother (Alice Neel) who pay a visit to Milo, a railroad worker. At the same time his poet friends, Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky, and Gregory Corso, hang around quizzing the bishop about the meaning of life and its everyday relationship to art and poetry.? (Museum of Fine Arts catalogue)??_______






Amy's Alias

http://amyking.org/


      
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep  8 23:02:30 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep  8 21:10:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not Green Cheese
Message-ID: <8CBFF111AB737A2-28FC-52BA@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.voanews.com/english/AmericanLife/2009-08-22-voa5.cfm

Needed: Poets in Space? 
By Neil Currie 
08 September 2009
??

John Milton in 1645 seemed to anticipate space travel that yet lay more than four centuries in the future when he wrote of, "Him that yon soars on golden wing, guiding the fiery-wheeled throne?" He also had figured out the destination, "On the dry smooth-shaven green, to behold the wandering moon?" 



Science would later disabuse us of the notion that the moon is made of green cheese - or is even green - but scientists aren't poets and perhaps that's why there doesn't seem to be the same enthusiasm for space exploration that there once was. A recent survey by the Pew Research Center found that, when asked to name the greatest U.S. accomplishment of the past 50 years, just 12 percent of Americans named sending men to the moon, down a third from 10 years ago.



The American astronauts, and their Russian cosmonaut counterparts, are men and women of science, and it is as scientists that they see things, and in the language of science that they describe what they see. But, most of us earthlings respond more passionately to poetry than prose. It may be the poetry of space that is missing. 


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  9 01:46:41 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue Sep  8 23:55:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>

Sam Gwynn said:

<<
Glendower spoke "excellent Welsh" as I recall.  Meaning "nonsense."
>>

In Hotspur's view (Glendower's own words aren't markedly outside the 
standard English register) and reflecting an anti-Welsh prejudice, whether 
the author's or the audience's or the character's.

This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in _Henry V_, 
which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to tame and absorb 
marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots in the characters of 
Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed into house niggers, in the same 
fashion that part of the function of Nigger Minstrel comedy was to neuter 
the power of black speech.

<<
But that's not the same as attempting African-American dialect these days. 
Bob, who doesn't recognize lines, has crossed over one.  Incidentally, I 
agree with David that the original Parcelli piece isn't worth considering.
>>

As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes to the 
black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make out, get it 
wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register of contemporary black 
speech.  It's open to the objection of cultural expropriation, but that's a 
different issue.  Marie Angelou, I think it was, denounced Joel Chandler 
Harris in the Uncle Remus stories not because he got the speech wrong but 
because he had no right to use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat baldly.)

<<
Who cares who represents the "establishment" anyway?  Most poet I know are 
AWP members, teach for a living, and want to be published--somehow, 
somewhere.  Does this make them different from any poet who have ever lived? 
So what?  There's always going to be a "power structure" that all 
"outsiders" want to demonize.
>>

Not just outsiders -- Pope's _Dunciad_ was pretty strong stuff.  The problem 
with Parcelli's piece isn't that it's satire, but that it's inept.  Could do 
with some serious editing.

And whether we like it or not, there *is an argument around the 
institutionalisation of poetry via MFA programs.

Things change -- when I began publishing poetry in the sixties, I actually 
got paid for what I wrote, not much but after a time enough to cover my 
postage and stationary expenses.  (Let's not bother getting into the 
argument of whether or not it's possible to live off a direct income from 
writing poetry.  It's pretty much not, and never has been.  Byron and Scott 
were exceptions, even in their own time.)

Now?  Some magazines still pay, but increasingly fewer.  (I think the last 
time I was paid money for a poem was by _The London Magazine_, while Alan 
Ross was still alive.)  Now it's, "Sure we'll publish you, but don't expect 
to be paid."  A disrespecting of poetry, part and parcel of the increasing 
use of competitions to subsidise magazines, which began in the sixties but 
didn't really gain traction here in the UK till, I think, the seventies and 
eighties.

Institutions will be with us always, but they morph in the course of time.

There are more ways of skinning a cat than one, and all the other cliches to 
that effect.

What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black speech 
seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a bland and 
uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial usages.  When KRS-One 
talks about house niggas, he's saying something different from Malcolm X 
referring to house negros in 1963, but both were talking about the way in 
which some blacks became subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply 
shifts the analogy from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His 
argument could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by "house 
negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different argument then. 
Yoko Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the Negro of the world," 
after all.

While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and has been a 
danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the linguistic genocide 
perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech illustrates.  Nat Turner 
wasn't simply hung, he had his language taken away first, and the 
suppression of his black language is, it seems to me, part and parcel of the 
suppression of aspects of black history.  It might be because I'm not 
USAmerican, but I was well into adulthood before I realised that "John 
Brown's Body" was about a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet 
Beecher Stowe for this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she 
makes damn sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in 
their own terms.

Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a nineteenth 
century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry in _Morant Bay_ in 
1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale without allowing the voices of 
the blacks to speak in the poem, I don't know, but it might be open to the 
sorts of objection being raised here against white writers using black 
speech and idiom.

There is a line, as Sam points out, but despite the chorus of outrage, 
whether Bob crossed it is another matter.

Robin

Incidentally, it was George Borrow who used the actual phrase, "excellent 
Welsh", referring to the speech of someone he encounters in Wild Wales, and 
he uses it in terms of unqualified approbation.  Shakespeare was different 
...  R.

GLENDOWER

    ... I am not in the roll of common men.
    Where is he living, clipp'd in with the sea
    That chides the banks of England, Scotland, Wales,
    Which calls me pupil, or hath read to me?
    And bring him out that is but woman's son
    Can trace me in the tedious ways of art
    And hold me pace in deep experiments.

HOTSPUR

    I think there's no man speaks better Welsh.
    I'll to dinner. 


From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 07:54:31 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 06:02:30 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <8CBFF5B6D37FE29-89AC-1ABA3@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com>



http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html
Northeastern suspends Morse poetry prize
April 17, 2009 10:42 AM 



Northeastern University has decided to suspend its Samuel French Morse Poetry Prize because of financial difficulties.
"The competition is not going forward for now, but might possibly return at some unspecified point in the future,'' said Guy Rotella, a Northeastern English professor and series editor in an e-mail.





The annual competition, run since 1983, awarded $1,000 and publication by Northeastern University for a first or second book of poems. 
Rotella explained that the economics of the prize no longer made sense. "Put simply,'' he said, "the costs of publication outstrip the combination of subvention and sales available to offset those costs.''


This year's winner was Lisa Gluskin, whose "Tulips, Water, Ash'' was picked by judge Jean Valentine and will be published in September.
Previous winners include Carl Phillips (In the Blood, 1992), Allison Funk (Living at the Epicenter, 1995), Jennifer Atkinson (The Drowned City, 2000), Ted Genoways (Bullroarer, 2001), and Roy Jacobstein (A Form of Optimism, 2006), according to Poets and Writers, which first reported the news.


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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 11:21:14 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Wed Sep  9 09:28:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry Prize
In-Reply-To: <8CBFF5B6D37FE29-89AC-1ABA3@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBFF5B6D37FE29-89AC-1ABA3@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909090821w299b5983w8d34d66098a418cf@mail.gmail.com>

I think Charles Harper Webb won it, too; its prestige really fell off.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:54 AM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html
> Northeastern suspends Morse poetry prize
> April 17, 2009 10:42 AM
>
> Northeastern University has decided to suspend its Samuel French Morse
> Poetry Prize because of financial difficulties.
> "The competition is not going forward for now, but might possibly return at
> some unspecified point in the future,'' said Guy Rotella, a Northeastern
> English professor and series editor in an e-mail.
>
>
> The annual competition, run since 1983, awarded $1,000 and publication by
> Northeastern University for a first or second book of poems.
> Rotella explained that the economics of the prize no longer made sense.
> "Put simply,'' he said, "the costs of publication outstrip the combination
> of subvention and sales available to offset those costs.''
>  This year's winner was Lisa Gluskin, whose "Tulips, Water, Ash'' was
> picked by judge Jean Valentine and will be published in September.
> Previous winners include Carl Phillips (In the Blood, 1992), Allison Funk
> (Living at the Epicenter, 1995), Jennifer Atkinson (The Drowned City, 2000),
> Ted Genoways (Bullroarer, 2001), and Roy Jacobstein (A Form of Optimism,
> 2006), according to Poets and Writers, which first reported the news.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From junction at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  9 11:38:34 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Wed Sep  9 09:46:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my 
head, and probably saomewhat under-informed.

As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black 
speech." I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, 
pre-great-migration south there were more different registers between 
gullah and Richmond than in even the quite varied south we know. Do 
we know what Nat Turner's speech was like? Certainly all of the slave 
narratives, whether "as told to" or written by their narrators, were 
written in a normative literary English that no one speaks. The 
intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them if they 
had been written in an approximation of everyday speech. The same 
could probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe (Richmond and Baltimore).

Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody 
spoke except on the stage.

The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago 
and New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children whose 
parents were from different parts of the south grew up together. Out 
of their speech came the normative speech of rap music, widely 
disseminated, and it's in turn influenced speech on the street (for 
white people too, tho to a lesser extent). How permanent this will be 
is a matter of question--other pop speech has disappeared leaving 
only a few traces.

The question of appropriation is answered differently in different 
contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in 
Havana with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name 
lost to time). After their presentations a black student attacked 
Barnet for his appropriation of the lives of black people in his 
ethnographic novels. He had no right to their stories, let alone 
their dialect. Barnet was stunned. He's an ethnographer, preserving 
rapidly disappearing data--when he first wrote there were still 
cimarrones, but no more. The black novelist was also stunned. Was he 
allowed to include white people in his novels? They both tried to 
explain to the girl that while there's certainly plenty of racism in 
Cuba it never takes the form of cultural ownership. The intended 
readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of all colors (almost 
all Cubans are literate), would not be put off.

Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave 
eloquent voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects. That 
they spoke non-standard literary English reduced the possible threat 
in their narrative for its intended audience, which shared neither 
the speech nor the class and caste of either Jim or Huck. Is Twain 
appropriating white trash (and note the Irish name) and black 
dialect? The public persona he constructed was designed to undercut 
the tendency to experience the vernacular as inferior.

But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended audience 
from the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant and 
insistent, and it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted) difficult 
to ignore.

Best,

Mark




>This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in 
>_Henry V_, which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to 
>tame and absorb marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots in 
>the characters of Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed into 
>house niggers, in the same fashion that part of the function of 
>Nigger Minstrel comedy was to neuter the power of black speech.
>
>As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes to 
>the black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make out, 
>get it wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register of 
>contemporary black speech.  It's open to the objection of cultural 
>expropriation, but that's a different issue.  Marie Angelou, I think 
>it was, denounced Joel Chandler Harris in the Uncle Remus stories 
>not because he got the speech wrong but because he had no right to 
>use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat baldly.)
>What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black 
>speech seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a bland 
>and uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial 
>usages.  When KRS-One talks about house niggas, he's saying 
>something different from Malcolm X referring to house negros in 
>1963, but both were talking about the way in which some blacks 
>became subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply shifts the 
>analogy from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His 
>argument could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by 
>"house negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different 
>argument then. Yoko Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the 
>Negro of the world," after all.
>
>While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and has 
>been a danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the 
>linguistic genocide perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech 
>illustrates.  Nat Turner wasn't simply hung, he had his language 
>taken away first, and the suppression of his black language is, it 
>seems to me, part and parcel of the suppression of aspects of black 
>history.  It might be because I'm not USAmerican, but I was well 
>into adulthood before I realised that "John Brown's Body" was about 
>a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet Beecher Stowe for 
>this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she makes damn 
>sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in their own terms.
>
>Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a 
>nineteenth century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry in 
>_Morant Bay_ in 1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale without 
>allowing the voices of the blacks to speak in the poem, I don't 
>know, but it might be open to the sorts of objection being raised 
>here against white writers using black speech and idiom.

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep  9 11:50:29 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed Sep  9 09:58:14 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry Prize
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909090821w299b5983w8d34d66098a418cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6CD38F5.8576%grahamd@ripon.edu>

So Webb killed it off, then?  That's some potent poetry!

(I used to have posted on my office door a newspaper clip from my childhood,
a headline that appeared when my father was elected to the local library
board.  It read, "Graham Elected to Library Board.  Circulation Drop
Reported.")


On 9/9/09 10:21 AM, "Catherine Daly" <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think Charles Harper Webb won it, too; its prestige really fell off.
> 
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:54 AM,  <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html
>> Northeastern suspends Morse poetry prize
>> April 17, 2009 10:42 AM

-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================



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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Sep  9 14:36:36 2009
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed Sep  9 12:44:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909081019m12c54b6etb5337a4cc2b6ec64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5B1DA980C58B474CBB2A0CB2426AA50E@win.louisiana.edu>

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUo
aEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 15:16:24 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep  9 13:24:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital
In-Reply-To: <5B1DA980C58B474CBB2A0CB2426AA50E@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <4b65c2d70909081019m12c54b6etb5337a4cc2b6ec64@mail.gmail.com>
	<5B1DA980C58B474CBB2A0CB2426AA50E@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909091216o5118039dv238ade8e3eb40549@mail.gmail.com>

Believe it or not, I am sorry. And I hope he will get better soon,
Anny

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Skip Fox <skip@louisiana.edu> wrote:

>
> http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From seamascain at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 15:17:36 2009
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Wed Sep  9 13:25:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] ... grace & delicacy, in the Zen sense
Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40909091217s69d8af2fy4139e5c226e0a0ca@mail.gmail.com>

_______________


On Thursday, September 10th, 2009, IMRAM, the annual Irish-language
literary festival, will present a special evening of performances in
homage to the life & poetry of M?ire Mhac an tSaoi.

This event will take place at 6:30 p.m. at EAGLAIS ?INIT?IREACH (the
Unitarian Church), 112 West St. Stephen?s Green in Dublin, Ireland.
Admission is free.

M?ire Mhac an tSaoi was born in 1922.  She is one of the most
important figures in contemporary Irish literature.  She has a
knowledge of the Munster dialect of Irish that is second-to-none.  Her
technical mastery of traditional forms melds with potent
self-expression to produce modern poetry of grace & delicacy.  Indeed,
the poetry of M?ire Mhac an tSaoi is centered, in the Zen sense of
centered.  Her collections of poetry include "Margadh na Saoire,"
"Codladh an Ghaisc?gh," "An Galar Dubhach," & "Shoa agus D?nta Eile."

This evening of special performances drawn from the work of M?ire Mhac
an tSaoi will feature Nuala N? Dhomhnaill, M?ir?n Nic Eoin, Br?d N?
Mh?r?in, Fionola ? Siochr?, Eoghan ? hAnluain, Liam ? Muirthile &
Gabriel Rosenstock.

Thursday,
10 September 2009,
6:30 p.m.,
EAGLAIS ?INIT?IREACH,
112 West St. Stephen?s Green,
Dublin, Ireland

Free admission

For additional information about the IMRAM Festival, go to ...

http://www.poetryireland.ie/whats-on/imram.html

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-IRISH-LANGUAGE-LITERATURE-FESTIVAL

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-FEILE-LITRIOCHTA-GAEILGE

Questions may be put to
Liam Carson, Director of
IMRAM Festival at ...

liamog62@mac.com

Books featured at
the IMRAM Festival
may be purchased
from ...

Connolly Books,
connollybooks@eircom.net
43 East Essex Street,
Dublin 2, Ireland

beir bua,

S?amas Cain
http://seamascain.writernetwork.com
http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain
http://alazanto.org/seamascain

_______________

From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 16:44:45 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 14:52:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry Prize
In-Reply-To: <C6CD38F5.8576%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8CBFFA57F9FBBB7-3EB8-FFF7@webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com>


With the proliferation of ms. contests, I don't know that the loss of one contest, even one of the older ones like S F Morse Prize, will be missed too much.

You think entries are down in the down economy? 



Which contests have more prestige associated with winning? I would think a contest associated with a major poetry org, like Academy's Whitman

prize, or a contest associated with active poetry press, like Sarabande or Boa Editions, might be a boost in publicity, notice and distribution, but I wonder

if that translates to esteem and prestige for the book/poet.



For a time it seemed all Yale Younger Poets became famous poets...not so much in the last 20 or so years.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 11:50 am
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse Poetry Prize



So Webb killed it off, then? ?That's some potent poetry!

(I used to have posted on my office door a newspaper clip from my childhood, a headline that appeared when my father was elected to the local library board. ?It read, "Graham Elected to Library Board. ?Circulation Drop Reported.")


On 9/9/09 10:21 AM, "Catherine Daly" <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com> wrote:


I think Charles Harper Webb won it, too; its prestige really fell off.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:54 AM, ?<jforjames@aol.com> wrote:


http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html
Northeastern suspends Morse poetry prize
April 17, 2009 10:42 AM 



-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Sep  9 18:16:38 2009
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed Sep  9 16:24:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909091216o5118039dv238ade8e3eb40549@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC2C64F1D8CB491E89F60E76D75D10EF@win.louisiana.edu>

Me too. (Of course I believe it, Anny. You mentioned him occasionally. I
haven't, but let me say that I've enjoyed Prairie Home on long drives. It
sure beats the drum-beat of miles and bored out head. And his stories are
pleasant. Nothing that I might buy and read, but then they were made for
oral delivery.)

 

He's a decent person, and it seems curlish to attack him in print for what
he is not. He's NOT Ezra, for instance. 

 

I'm glad it wasn't serious. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 2:16 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital

 

Believe it or not, I am sorry. And I hope he will get better soon,
Anny

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Skip Fox <skip@louisiana.edu> wrote:

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUo
aEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

< Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae >
Giovenale

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 19:52:09 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 18:00:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Nigerian poet Jekwu Ozoemene
Message-ID: <8CBFFBFADDC56CD-C14-840A@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS125520+09-Sep-2009+PRN20090909
"Shadows of Existence"
(published by iUniverse), by Nigerian poet Jekwu Ozoemene, depicts images of
the African continent, its people and the universal love that surrounds them
in a powerful collection of 46 poems.



Ozoemene became inspired to write his first collection of poetry after
listening to Professor Karen King-Aribisala's reading of D.H. Lawrence's
"Snake" at the University of Lagos, Nigeria in 1993. That reading instigated
his literary creativity and introduced him to poetry as an art form -- with
its distinctive sounds, rhythms and metaphors.

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 19:55:36 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 18:03:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital
In-Reply-To: <DC2C64F1D8CB491E89F60E76D75D10EF@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <8CBFFC029199347-C14-8491@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com>


I've enjoy Prairie Home Companion. I like the old-fashioned variety show format.

Particularly like Dusty & Lefty, Guy Noir and the underemployed English Major he portrays.

I'm folk music fan...and his show is heavy on folkies.??
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Fox <skip@louisiana.edu>
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16 pm
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital





Me too. (Of course I believe it, Anny. You mentioned him occasionally. I haven?t, but let me say that I?ve enjoyed Prairie Home on long drives. It sure beats the drum-beat of miles and bored out head. And his stories are pleasant. Nothing that I might buy and read, but then they were made for oral delivery.)

?

He?s a decent person, and it seems curlish to attack him in print for what he is not. He?s NOT Ezra, for instance. 

?

I?m glad it wasn?t serious. 

?

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 2:16 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital

?

Believe it or not, I am sorry. And I hope he will get better soon,
Anny


On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Skip Fox <skip@louisiana.edu> wrote:



http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl




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-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Sep  9 21:21:38 2009
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed Sep  9 19:29:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital
In-Reply-To: <8CBFFC029199347-C14-8491@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CD64584F0C0E4CEA8B08F1B64185DEAC@win.louisiana.edu>

Yes. I forgot the music. That often had me as high as the hill, as they say.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 6:56 PM
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital

 

I've enjoy Prairie Home Companion. I like the old-fashioned variety show
format.

Particularly like Dusty & Lefty, Guy Noir and the underemployed English
Major he portrays.

I'm folk music fan...and his show is heavy on folkies.  
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Fox <skip@louisiana.edu>
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16 pm
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital

Me too. (Of course I believe it, Anny. You mentioned him occasionally. I
haven't, but let me say that I've enjoyed Prairie Home on long drives. It
sure beats the drum-beat of miles and bored out head. And his stories are
pleasant. Nothing that I might buy and read, but then they were made for
oral delivery.)

 

He's a decent person, and it seems curlish to attack him in print for what
he is not. He's NOT Ezra, for instance. 

 

I'm glad it wasn't serious. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [
<mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu?>
mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 2:16 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Minor stroke puts Keillor in hospital

 

Believe it or not, I am sorry. And I hope he will get better soon,
Anny

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Skip Fox < <mailto:skip@louisiana.edu>
skip@louisiana.edu> wrote:

 
<http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDU
oaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl>
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/style/58076947.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUo
aEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsl


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
 <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
 <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Anny Ballardini
 <http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
 <http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome>
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
 <http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
 <http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html>
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

< Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae >
Giovenale

_______________________________________________
Ne
w-Poetry mailing list
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From junction at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  9 21:28:19 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Wed Sep  9 19:36:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel
	French Morse Poetry Prize
In-Reply-To: <8CBFFA57F9FBBB7-3EB8-FFF7@webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com>
References: <C6CD38F5.8576%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<8CBFFA57F9FBBB7-3EB8-FFF7@webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1MlYSa-0002os-Jp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I suspect that prizes short of the National Book Award or the 
Pulitzer are currency in academic tenure or hiring decisions and nowhere else.

Mark

At 04:44 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
>With the proliferation of ms. contests, I don't know that the loss 
>of one contest, even one of the older ones like S F Morse Prize, 
>will be missed too much.
>You think entries are down in the down economy?
>
>Which contests have more prestige associated with winning? I would 
>think a contest associated with a major poetry org, like Academy's Whitman
>prize, or a contest associated with active poetry press, like 
>Sarabande or Boa Editions, might be a boost in publicity, notice and 
>distribution, but I wonder
>if that translates to esteem and prestige for the book/poet.
>
>For a time it seemed all Yale Younger Poets became famous 
>poets...not so much in the last 20 or so years.
>Finnegan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
>To: NewPoetry <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 11:50 am
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French 
>Morse Poetry Prize
>
>So Webb killed it off, then?  That's some potent poetry!
>
>(I used to have posted on my office door a newspaper clip from my 
>childhood, a headline that appeared when my father was elected to 
>the local library board.  It read, "Graham Elected to Library 
>Board.  Circulation Drop Reported.")
>
>
>On 9/9/09 10:21 AM, "Catherine Daly" <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I think Charles Harper Webb won it, too; its prestige really fell off.
>
>On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:54 AM,  <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:
>
><http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html>http://www.boston.com/ae/books/blog/2009/04/northeastern_su.html
>Northeastern suspends Morse poetry prize
>April 17, 2009 10:42 AM
>
>
>--
>
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd@ripon.edu
>Home Page:
><http://web.me.com/drjazz/>http://web.me.com/drjazz/
>
>Poetry Library:
><http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 22:05:54 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 20:13:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry ...
Message-ID: <c56.621aa3f6.37d9b902@aol.com>

And not even always there. Says the winner of two such  prizes.
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From junction at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  9 23:10:15 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Wed Sep  9 21:18:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel
	French Morse Poetry ...
In-Reply-To: <c56.621aa3f6.37d9b902@aol.com>
References: <c56.621aa3f6.37d9b902@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1Mla3E-0007k4-MD@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Sorry to hear it.

I think most of the small presses and journals that sponsor prize 
contests and collect entry fees do so with clear consciences, but the 
funds that help keep them afloat may dull their moral judgment. For 
the applicants I'm guessing the incredible oversupply of MFAs acts as 
a motivation--the hope that a prize will be a boost in the job 
market. The participants all act under a kind of external compulsion. 
I'm talking about a corrupt system--if universities weren't 
proliferating cash cow programs that offer the implicit--sometimes 
explicit--promise of a career there would probably be fewer paid 
contests, and also fewer publishers and journals.

I've taken Junction Press, my imprint, to two AWP conferences. I'll 
never do it again. An endless line of young poets, almost none of 
whom even opened one of the books, quizzed me on submission policies. 
The air stank of desperation.

I don't think this was their fault, although if they were older and 
wiser they would have been more suspicious to begin with. Their lack 
of experience was being taken advantage of.

Or so it seems to me. It was very depressing.

Mark

At 10:05 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
>And not even always there. Says the winner of two such prizes.
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 23:15:37 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep  9 21:23:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel French Morse
	Poetry ...
Message-ID: <bed.49d22cca.37d9c959@aol.com>

I don't write poems to get jobs. I have a job. I'd like to teach fewer  
classes but I've never submitted a book or poem anywhere thinking that it would 
 get me a tenured gig somewhere. The young'uns crowding your table and 
other  tables at AWP will learn. Or they won't.
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From junction at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  9 23:35:29 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Wed Sep  9 21:43:14 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Northeastern University suspends Samuel
	French Morse Poetry ...
In-Reply-To: <bed.49d22cca.37d9c959@aol.com>
References: <bed.49d22cca.37d9c959@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1MlaRe-0005Rt-I0@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I think there really is an age differentiation. I know several older 
writers who have gone back to school for MFAs because they wanted the 
paid time for writing and an environment conducive to it. None of 
them have expected more from the degree. It's the kids that make me sad.

I've said all this elsewhere more than once. I appreciate the 
compulsion to write--I partake of it, it's all I've ever wanted to 
do. But I'm also aware that at the outset I didn't see much else that 
suited me. I wonder what it is, even in moments when the job market 
is bursting with opportunities outside of academia, that makes so 
many bright kids feel that what they have to look forward to out 
there is Bartleby's brick wall.

I suspect that this is a symptom of larger social problems. In the US 
very basic security requires a big salary, because our schools tend 
to be awful, child care for working couples is expensive and iffy, 
and the medical system is a disaster. Jobs in most fields come with a 
two week vacation, three after five years. In white collar jobs hours 
often aren't defined, so that a lot of "middle management" leaves the 
office after 7 at night and takes work home.

For artists the quest is always for a day job that leaves enough time 
and energy for making art. Hard to come by out there. More humane 
work standards might widen horizons and probably reduce the 
desperation that I'm talking about.

Mark

At 11:15 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
>I don't write poems to get jobs. I have a job. I'd like to teach 
>fewer classes but I've never submitted a book or poem anywhere 
>thinking that it would get me a tenured gig somewhere. The young'uns 
>crowding your table and other tables at AWP will learn. Or they won't.
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  9 23:54:39 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:02:58 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>

Hi, Mark.

Just a flag to say that I'll get back to responding to this in more detail 
anon -- I've just woken from fourteen hours' sleep, just why I conked out 
for that length of time I don't know, but I'm still feeling somewhat groggy. 
But you've touched on more than several points that have fascinated me for 
quite some time that I'd like to pursue.

Nat Turner is certainly one particular issue -- god knows how he actually 
spoke, but it certainly wasn't the way he's made to sound in his 
confessions.  Which links into the register of the slave narratives as 
they've come down to us, that you point to.  (There's a similar but not 
identical problem with 18thC criminal narratives as given by the various 
Ordinaries of Newgate and published, among other places, in the Newgate 
Calendar.)

There's a problem in finding a proper forum to discuss issues like this.  Or 
even who with.  When you get down to a certain level of detail, say London 
criminal cant between 1700 and 1750, it's possible to number on the fingers 
of one hand the people who are involved in studying it.  And for some 
reason, one of the best of those, Jonathan Green, abruptly stopped talking 
to me!

As I say, I'll get back on the points you raise.  One interesting -- indeed, 
strictly weird -- issue is the relation between a set of Dublin ballads 
written in the 1780s and nineteenth century black American speech.

But on that and the other points, more later.

But is this shifting into a too specialist area for this list?  Should Mark 
and I shift it backchannel, or are there enough people who'd like to 
listen/participate to keep it frontchannel?

For now ...

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Weiss" <junction@earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect


> Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my head, and 
> probably saomewhat under-informed.
>
> As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black speech." 
> I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, pre-great-migration south there 
> were more different registers between gullah and Richmond than in even the 
> quite varied south we know. Do we know what Nat Turner's speech was like? 
> Certainly all of the slave narratives, whether "as told to" or written by 
> their narrators, were written in a normative literary English that no one 
> speaks. The intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them 
> if they had been written in an approximation of everyday speech. The same 
> could probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe (Richmond and 
> Baltimore).
>
> Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody spoke 
> except on the stage.
>
> The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago and 
> New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children whose parents 
> were from different parts of the south grew up together. Out of their 
> speech came the normative speech of rap music, widely disseminated, and 
> it's in turn influenced speech on the street (for white people too, tho to 
> a lesser extent). How permanent this will be is a matter of 
> question--other pop speech has disappeared leaving only a few traces.
>
> The question of appropriation is answered differently in different 
> contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in Havana 
> with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name lost to time). 
> After their presentations a black student attacked Barnet for his 
> appropriation of the lives of black people in his ethnographic novels. He 
> had no right to their stories, let alone their dialect. Barnet was 
> stunned. He's an ethnographer, preserving rapidly disappearing data--when 
> he first wrote there were still cimarrones, but no more. The black 
> novelist was also stunned. Was he allowed to include white people in his 
> novels? They both tried to explain to the girl that while there's 
> certainly plenty of racism in Cuba it never takes the form of cultural 
> ownership. The intended readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of 
> all colors (almost all Cubans are literate), would not be put off.
>
> Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave eloquent 
> voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects. That they spoke 
> non-standard literary English reduced the possible threat in their 
> narrative for its intended audience, which shared neither the speech nor 
> the class and caste of either Jim or Huck. Is Twain appropriating white 
> trash (and note the Irish name) and black dialect? The public persona he 
> constructed was designed to undercut the tendency to experience the 
> vernacular as inferior.
>
> But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended audience from 
> the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant and insistent, and 
> it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted) difficult to ignore.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>>This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in _Henry 
>>V_, which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to tame and 
>>absorb marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots in the characters 
>>of Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed into house niggers, in the 
>>same fashion that part of the function of Nigger Minstrel comedy was to 
>>neuter the power of black speech.
>>
>>As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes to the 
>>black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make out, get it 
>>wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register of contemporary black 
>>speech.  It's open to the objection of cultural expropriation, but that's 
>>a different issue.  Marie Angelou, I think it was, denounced Joel Chandler 
>>Harris in the Uncle Remus stories not because he got the speech wrong but 
>>because he had no right to use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat baldly.)
>>What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black speech 
>>seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a bland and 
>>uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial usages.  When KRS-One 
>>talks about house niggas, he's saying something different from Malcolm X 
>>referring to house negros in 1963, but both were talking about the way in 
>>which some blacks became subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply 
>>shifts the analogy from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His 
>>argument could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by "house 
>>negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different argument then. 
>>Yoko Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the Negro of the world," 
>>after all.
>>
>>While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and has been 
>>a danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the linguistic 
>>genocide perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech illustrates.  Nat 
>>Turner wasn't simply hung, he had his language taken away first, and the 
>>suppression of his black language is, it seems to me, part and parcel of 
>>the suppression of aspects of black history.  It might be because I'm not 
>>USAmerican, but I was well into adulthood before I realised that "John 
>>Brown's Body" was about a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet 
>>Beecher Stowe for this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she 
>>makes damn sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in 
>>their own terms.
>>
>>Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a 
>>nineteenth century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry in 
>>_Morant Bay_ in 1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale without 
>>allowing the voices of the blacks to speak in the poem, I don't know, but 
>>it might be open to the sorts of objection being raised here against white 
>>writers using black speech and idiom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  9 23:55:35 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:03:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>

There's an excellent book on AAVE called "spoken soul" which is, I  
think, an excellent overview of the development of the dialect and the  
influences on it both in the antebellum south as well as an important  
and oft overlooked influence on the dialect in the interwar period and  
the birth of black radio playing black musics like blues, jazz, and  
african american gospel.

On Sep 9, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:

> Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my  
> head, and probably saomewhat under-informed.
>
> As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black  
> speech." I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, pre-great- 
> migration south there were more different registers between gullah  
> and Richmond than in even the quite varied south we know. Do we know  
> what Nat Turner's speech was like? Certainly all of the slave  
> narratives, whether "as told to" or written by their narrators, were  
> written in a normative literary English that no one speaks. The  
> intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them if  
> they had been written in an approximation of everyday speech. The  
> same could probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe (Richmond  
> and Baltimore).
>
> Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody  
> spoke except on the stage.
>
> The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago  
> and New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children  
> whose parents were from different parts of the south grew up  
> together. Out of their speech came the normative speech of rap  
> music, widely disseminated, and it's in turn influenced speech on  
> the street (for white people too, tho to a lesser extent). How  
> permanent this will be is a matter of question--other pop speech has  
> disappeared leaving only a few traces.
>
> The question of appropriation is answered differently in different  
> contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in  
> Havana with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name  
> lost to time). After their presentations a black student attacked  
> Barnet for his appropriation of the lives of black people in his  
> ethnographic novels. He had no right to their stories, let alone  
> their dialect. Barnet was stunned. He's an ethnographer, preserving  
> rapidly disappearing data--when he first wrote there were still  
> cimarrones, but no more. The black novelist was also stunned. Was he  
> allowed to include white people in his novels? They both tried to  
> explain to the girl that while there's certainly plenty of racism in  
> Cuba it never takes the form of cultural ownership. The intended  
> readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of all colors (almost  
> all Cubans are literate), would not be put off.
>
> Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave  
> eloquent voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects. That  
> they spoke non-standard literary English reduced the possible threat  
> in their narrative for its intended audience, which shared neither  
> the speech nor the class and caste of either Jim or Huck. Is Twain  
> appropriating white trash (and note the Irish name) and black  
> dialect? The public persona he constructed was designed to undercut  
> the tendency to experience the vernacular as inferior.
>
> But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended  
> audience from the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant  
> and insistent, and it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted)  
> difficult to ignore.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>> This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in  
>> _Henry V_, which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to  
>> tame and absorb marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots  
>> in the characters of Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed into  
>> house niggers, in the same fashion that part of the function of  
>> Nigger Minstrel comedy was to neuter the power of black speech.
>>
>> As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes  
>> to the black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make  
>> out, get it wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register of  
>> contemporary black speech.  It's open to the objection of cultural  
>> expropriation, but that's a different issue.  Marie Angelou, I  
>> think it was, denounced Joel Chandler Harris in the Uncle Remus  
>> stories not because he got the speech wrong but because he had no  
>> right to use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat baldly.)
>> What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black  
>> speech seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a bland  
>> and uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial usages.   
>> When KRS-One talks about house niggas, he's saying something  
>> different from Malcolm X referring to house negros in 1963, but  
>> both were talking about the way in which some blacks became  
>> subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply shifts the analogy  
>> from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His argument  
>> could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by "house  
>> negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different argument  
>> then. Yoko Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the Negro of  
>> the world," after all.
>>
>> While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and  
>> has been a danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the  
>> linguistic genocide perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech  
>> illustrates.  Nat Turner wasn't simply hung, he had his language  
>> taken away first, and the suppression of his black language is, it  
>> seems to me, part and parcel of the suppression of aspects of black  
>> history.  It might be because I'm not USAmerican, but I was well  
>> into adulthood before I realised that "John Brown's Body" was about  
>> a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet Beecher Stowe for  
>> this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she makes damn  
>> sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in their  
>> own terms.
>>
>> Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a  
>> nineteenth century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry  
>> in _Morant Bay_ in 1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale  
>> without allowing the voices of the blacks to speak in the poem, I  
>> don't know, but it might be open to the sorts of objection being  
>> raised here against white writers using black speech and idiom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  9 23:58:35 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:06:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>

if you guys go back channel please keep me in the loop. but I'd argue  
that nothing is more pertinent to the conversation about english  
language poetry than the history and development of the english  
language.

how can we understand chaucer, after all, without recognizing the  
important influence of norman french on the language of the literate  
class during his life?

On Sep 9, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Hi, Mark.
>
> Just a flag to say that I'll get back to responding to this in more  
> detail anon -- I've just woken from fourteen hours' sleep, just why  
> I conked out for that length of time I don't know, but I'm still  
> feeling somewhat groggy. But you've touched on more than several  
> points that have fascinated me for quite some time that I'd like to  
> pursue.
>
> Nat Turner is certainly one particular issue -- god knows how he  
> actually spoke, but it certainly wasn't the way he's made to sound  
> in his confessions.  Which links into the register of the slave  
> narratives as they've come down to us, that you point to.  (There's  
> a similar but not identical problem with 18thC criminal narratives  
> as given by the various Ordinaries of Newgate and published, among  
> other places, in the Newgate Calendar.)
>
> There's a problem in finding a proper forum to discuss issues like  
> this.  Or even who with.  When you get down to a certain level of  
> detail, say London criminal cant between 1700 and 1750, it's  
> possible to number on the fingers of one hand the people who are  
> involved in studying it.  And for some reason, one of the best of  
> those, Jonathan Green, abruptly stopped talking to me!
>
> As I say, I'll get back on the points you raise.  One interesting --  
> indeed, strictly weird -- issue is the relation between a set of  
> Dublin ballads written in the 1780s and nineteenth century black  
> American speech.
>
> But on that and the other points, more later.
>
> But is this shifting into a too specialist area for this list?   
> Should Mark and I shift it backchannel, or are there enough people  
> who'd like to listen/participate to keep it frontchannel?
>
> For now ...
>
> Robin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" <junction@earthlink.net 
> >
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
>
>
>> Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my  
>> head, and probably saomewhat under-informed.
>>
>> As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black  
>> speech." I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, pre-great- 
>> migration south there were more different registers between gullah  
>> and Richmond than in even the quite varied south we know. Do we  
>> know what Nat Turner's speech was like? Certainly all of the slave  
>> narratives, whether "as told to" or written by their narrators,  
>> were written in a normative literary English that no one speaks.  
>> The intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them  
>> if they had been written in an approximation of everyday speech.  
>> The same could probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe  
>> (Richmond and Baltimore).
>>
>> Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody  
>> spoke except on the stage.
>>
>> The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago  
>> and New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children  
>> whose parents were from different parts of the south grew up  
>> together. Out of their speech came the normative speech of rap  
>> music, widely disseminated, and it's in turn influenced speech on  
>> the street (for white people too, tho to a lesser extent). How  
>> permanent this will be is a matter of question--other pop speech  
>> has disappeared leaving only a few traces.
>>
>> The question of appropriation is answered differently in different  
>> contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in  
>> Havana with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name  
>> lost to time). After their presentations a black student attacked  
>> Barnet for his appropriation of the lives of black people in his  
>> ethnographic novels. He had no right to their stories, let alone  
>> their dialect. Barnet was stunned. He's an ethnographer, preserving  
>> rapidly disappearing data--when he first wrote there were still  
>> cimarrones, but no more. The black novelist was also stunned. Was  
>> he allowed to include white people in his novels? They both tried  
>> to explain to the girl that while there's certainly plenty of  
>> racism in Cuba it never takes the form of cultural ownership. The  
>> intended readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of all  
>> colors (almost all Cubans are literate), would not be put off.
>>
>> Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave  
>> eloquent voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects.  
>> That they spoke non-standard literary English reduced the possible  
>> threat in their narrative for its intended audience, which shared  
>> neither the speech nor the class and caste of either Jim or Huck.  
>> Is Twain appropriating white trash (and note the Irish name) and  
>> black dialect? The public persona he constructed was designed to  
>> undercut the tendency to experience the vernacular as inferior.
>>
>> But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended  
>> audience from the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant  
>> and insistent, and it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted)  
>> difficult to ignore.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in  
>>> _Henry V_, which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to  
>>> tame and absorb marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots  
>>> in the characters of Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed  
>>> into house niggers, in the same fashion that part of the function  
>>> of Nigger Minstrel comedy was to neuter the power of black speech.
>>>
>>> As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes  
>>> to the black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make  
>>> out, get it wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register  
>>> of contemporary black speech.  It's open to the objection of  
>>> cultural expropriation, but that's a different issue.  Marie  
>>> Angelou, I think it was, denounced Joel Chandler Harris in the  
>>> Uncle Remus stories not because he got the speech wrong but  
>>> because he had no right to use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat  
>>> baldly.)
>>> What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black  
>>> speech seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a  
>>> bland and uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial  
>>> usages.  When KRS-One talks about house niggas, he's saying  
>>> something different from Malcolm X referring to house negros in  
>>> 1963, but both were talking about the way in which some blacks  
>>> became subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply shifts the  
>>> analogy from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His  
>>> argument could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by  
>>> "house negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different  
>>> argument then. Yoko Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the  
>>> Negro of the world," after all.
>>>
>>> While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and  
>>> has been a danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the  
>>> linguistic genocide perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech  
>>> illustrates.  Nat Turner wasn't simply hung, he had his language  
>>> taken away first, and the suppression of his black language is, it  
>>> seems to me, part and parcel of the suppression of aspects of  
>>> black history.  It might be because I'm not USAmerican, but I was  
>>> well into adulthood before I realised that "John Brown's Body" was  
>>> about a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet Beecher Stowe  
>>> for this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she makes  
>>> damn sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in  
>>> their own terms.
>>>
>>> Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a  
>>> nineteenth century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry  
>>> in _Morant Bay_ in 1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale  
>>> without allowing the voices of the blacks to speak in the poem, I  
>>> don't know, but it might be open to the sorts of objection being  
>>> raised here against white writers using black speech and idiom.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 00:00:48 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:09:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC>

Thanks for the heads-up on this, Jason.  It's available partly via google 
books:

        http://books.google.com/books?id=MnBNCnvt2gQC&dq=%22spoken+soul%22+aave&source=gbs_navlinks_s

... so that will give a chance to see what it does.  But on the face of it, 
looks fascinating.

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq@myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect


> There's an excellent book on AAVE called "spoken soul" which is, I  think, 
> an excellent overview of the development of the dialect and the 
> influences on it both in the antebellum south as well as an important  and 
> oft overlooked influence on the dialect in the interwar period and  the 
> birth of black radio playing black musics like blues, jazz, and  african 
> american gospel. 


From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 00:13:01 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:20:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909092113l67ebc3c2s3d1b71aa1bf043ab@mail.gmail.com>

Why should they go backchannel? Anyone here whose deletekey doesn't work?

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

> if you guys go back channel please keep me in the loop. but I'd argue that
> nothing is more pertinent to the conversation about english language poetry
> than the history and development of the english language.
>
> how can we understand chaucer, after all, without recognizing the important
> influence of norman french on the language of the literate class during his
> life?
>
> On Sep 9, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>  Hi, Mark.
>>
>> Just a flag to say that I'll get back to responding to this in more detail
>> anon -- I've just woken from fourteen hours' sleep, just why I conked out
>> for that length of time I don't know, but I'm still feeling somewhat groggy.
>> But you've touched on more than several points that have fascinated me for
>> quite some time that I'd like to pursue.
>>
>> Nat Turner is certainly one particular issue -- god knows how he actually
>> spoke, but it certainly wasn't the way he's made to sound in his
>> confessions.  Which links into the register of the slave narratives as
>> they've come down to us, that you point to.  (There's a similar but not
>> identical problem with 18thC criminal narratives as given by the various
>> Ordinaries of Newgate and published, among other places, in the Newgate
>> Calendar.)
>>
>> There's a problem in finding a proper forum to discuss issues like this.
>>  Or even who with.  When you get down to a certain level of detail, say
>> London criminal cant between 1700 and 1750, it's possible to number on the
>> fingers of one hand the people who are involved in studying it.  And for
>> some reason, one of the best of those, Jonathan Green, abruptly stopped
>> talking to me!
>>
>> As I say, I'll get back on the points you raise.  One interesting --
>> indeed, strictly weird -- issue is the relation between a set of Dublin
>> ballads written in the 1780s and nineteenth century black American speech.
>>
>> But on that and the other points, more later.
>>
>> But is this shifting into a too specialist area for this list?  Should
>> Mark and I shift it backchannel, or are there enough people who'd like to
>> listen/participate to keep it frontchannel?
>>
>> For now ...
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" <junction@earthlink.net>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <
>> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
>>
>>
>>  Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my head,
>>> and probably saomewhat under-informed.
>>>
>>> As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black speech."
>>> I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, pre-great-migration south there
>>> were more different registers between gullah and Richmond than in even the
>>> quite varied south we know. Do we know what Nat Turner's speech was like?
>>> Certainly all of the slave narratives, whether "as told to" or written by
>>> their narrators, were written in a normative literary English that no one
>>> speaks. The intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them if
>>> they had been written in an approximation of everyday speech. The same could
>>> probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe (Richmond and Baltimore).
>>>
>>> Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody spoke
>>> except on the stage.
>>>
>>> The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago and
>>> New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children whose parents
>>> were from different parts of the south grew up together. Out of their speech
>>> came the normative speech of rap music, widely disseminated, and it's in
>>> turn influenced speech on the street (for white people too, tho to a lesser
>>> extent). How permanent this will be is a matter of question--other pop
>>> speech has disappeared leaving only a few traces.
>>>
>>> The question of appropriation is answered differently in different
>>> contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in Havana
>>> with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name lost to time).
>>> After their presentations a black student attacked Barnet for his
>>> appropriation of the lives of black people in his ethnographic novels. He
>>> had no right to their stories, let alone their dialect. Barnet was stunned.
>>> He's an ethnographer, preserving rapidly disappearing data--when he first
>>> wrote there were still cimarrones, but no more. The black novelist was also
>>> stunned. Was he allowed to include white people in his novels? They both
>>> tried to explain to the girl that while there's certainly plenty of racism
>>> in Cuba it never takes the form of cultural ownership. The intended
>>> readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of all colors (almost all
>>> Cubans are literate), would not be put off.
>>>
>>> Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave eloquent
>>> voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects. That they spoke
>>> non-standard literary English reduced the possible threat in their narrative
>>> for its intended audience, which shared neither the speech nor the class and
>>> caste of either Jim or Huck. Is Twain appropriating white trash (and note
>>> the Irish name) and black dialect? The public persona he constructed was
>>> designed to undercut the tendency to experience the vernacular as inferior.
>>>
>>> But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended audience
>>> from the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant and insistent, and
>>> it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted) difficult to ignore.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  This is different from the linguistic stereotyping engaged in in _Henry
>>>> V_, which could be seen as part and parcel of an attempt to tame and absorb
>>>> marginalised groups -- the Welsh, Irish and Scots in the characters of
>>>> Fluellin, etc.  Field niggers transformed into house niggers, in the same
>>>> fashion that part of the function of Nigger Minstrel comedy was to neuter
>>>> the power of black speech.
>>>>
>>>> As a whole, the Parcelli piece is pretty inept, but when it comes to the
>>>> black language used there, he doesn't, as far as I can make out, get it
>>>> wrong.  Parcelli is reflecting a particular register of contemporary black
>>>> speech.  It's open to the objection of cultural expropriation, but that's a
>>>> different issue.  Marie Angelou, I think it was, denounced Joel Chandler
>>>> Harris in the Uncle Remus stories not because he got the speech wrong but
>>>> because he had no right to use it.  (I'm paraphrasing somewhat baldly.)
>>>> What bothers me about this discussion is the way that actual black
>>>> speech seems to be written out of the argument in favour of a bland and
>>>> uncontentious disapproval of overt or covert racial usages.  When KRS-One
>>>> talks about house niggas, he's saying something different from Malcolm X
>>>> referring to house negros in 1963, but both were talking about the way in
>>>> which some blacks became subservient to white culture.  Parcelli simply
>>>> shifts the analogy from establishment blacks to establishment poets.  His
>>>> argument could be verbally sanitised by replacing "house nigga" by "house
>>>> negro" and Massa by the Man, but it would be a different argument then. Yoko
>>>> Ono and John Lennon didn't say, "Woman is the Negro of the world," after
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> While racist transformation and expropriation of language is and has
>>>> been a danger, suppression may have been a greater one, as the linguistic
>>>> genocide perpetrated on black nineteenth century speech illustrates.  Nat
>>>> Turner wasn't simply hung, he had his language taken away first, and the
>>>> suppression of his black language is, it seems to me, part and parcel of the
>>>> suppression of aspects of black history.  It might be because I'm not
>>>> USAmerican, but I was well into adulthood before I realised that "John
>>>> Brown's Body" was about a slave revolt.  I think we can thank Harriet
>>>> Beecher Stowe for this, as among other things in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, she
>>>> makes damn sure there are no transgressive negroes alowed to succeed in
>>>> their own terms.
>>>>
>>>> Then there's the British example of a white writer celebrating a
>>>> nineteenth century black slave revolt (in Jamiaca), Francis Berry in _Morant
>>>> Bay_ in 1961.  How Berry *could have told that tale without allowing the
>>>> voices of the blacks to speak in the poem, I don't know, but it might be
>>>> open to the sorts of objection being raised here against white writers using
>>>> black speech and idiom.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 00:17:32 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:25:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>

> how can we understand chaucer, after all, without recognizing the 
> important influence of norman french on the language of the literate 
> class during his life?

Perfectly easily, if we ignore the Genetic Fallacy.  <g>

But that's yet another argument.

K, I'll keep it frontchannel, as Jason and Hal at least don't seem to mind.

Just ordered a second-hand copy of _Soul Music_ -- about ?9 including p&p in 
the UK.

Robin 


From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 00:23:07 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:30:50 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
	<4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>

i don't see what the fact that i'm a direct descendant of grampa jeff  
has to do with the old french influence on middle english

On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> how can we understand chaucer, after all, without recognizing the  
>> important influence of norman french on the language of the  
>> literate class during his life?
>
> Perfectly easily, if we ignore the Genetic Fallacy.  <g>
>
> But that's yet another argument.
>
> K, I'll keep it frontchannel, as Jason and Hal at least don't seem  
> to mind.
>
> Just ordered a second-hand copy of _Soul Music_ -- about ?9  
> including p&p in the UK.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 00:46:06 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  9 22:54:21 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC><9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net><4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>

>i don't see what the fact that i'm a direct descendant of grampa jeff  has 
>to do with the old french influence on middle english

To me, the statement that you can't understand Chaucer without understanding 
the old french influence on middle english parallels the idea that you can't 
understand English without understanding Latin because words mean what they 
did in the language where they were originally used.  Thus delapidated means 
the tiles have fallen off the walls, doesn't it?

Thus the Genetic Fallacy (in semantics).

Now if you'd qualified the statement by "properly" or "fully", I'd still 
disagree, to an extent, but not to the degree of complete and immediate 
rejection.

But then at heart, I still have the soul of a New Critic.

Or maybe it's the fundamentalist de Saussure side of me -- I'd see one of 
the implications of certain elements of _A Course in General Linguistics_ as 
calling Jason's statement about the pertinence of Anglo-French to Chaucer 
seriously into question.

It's icing on the cake, not the heart of the matter.

[Quoth the silly sheep.]

Robin 


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 01:02:55 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed Sep  9 23:11:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC><9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net><4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC><C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
	<594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <E1F183B7711441AFAAB3D808C0CB932F@RobinLaptopPC>

In an attempt to educate myself, I've just ordered:

        Lisa J. Green, _African American English: A Linguistic Introduction_

Anyone (Jason?  Mark?) know anything about this text?

Robin 


From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Thu Sep 10 01:37:33 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Wed Sep  9 23:45:04 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1F183B7711441AFAAB3D808C0CB932F@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
	<4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
	<594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1F183B7711441AFAAB3D808C0CB932F@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909092237s2e224c53seb76a4f3ad58eeca@mail.gmail.com>

And [from amazon.co.uk] I've ordered Sociolinguistics: An Introduction to
Language and Society by Peter Trudgill, ppbk
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sociolinguistics-Introduction-
Language-Peter-Trudgill/dp/0140289216/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Best,
Judy

2009/9/10 Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com>

> In an attempt to educate myself, I've just ordered:
>
>       Lisa J. Green, _African American English: A Linguistic Introduction_
>
> Anyone (Jason?  Mark?) know anything about this text?
>
>
> Robin
>
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 02:03:41 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 00:11:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>
	<3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>

As an aside, while my brain is still waking up, do we want to try to 
disentangle the differences between language, dialect, slang, cant -- and 
possibly even creole vs patois vs pidgin?

I partly say this as it may be relevant to the term "house nigga" as it 
first surfaced (for me) in the piece by The Execrable Parcelli.

As I see it, in the sense of a black who tries to buy into white culture, 
it's a slang [sic] usage of recent origin, mostly used by younger blacks and 
some younger whites.

i.e. it exists in a subset of one register of contemporary USAmerican black 
speech.

But that's partly because one of the places I'm coming from is the study of 
cant in English (for which read mostly England but also Scotland and Ireland 
and USAmerica and Australia) between 1500 and 1900, and in this area, the 
slang/cant distinction is one of the key elements.

So I'm kinda hung up on the distinction between cant and slang as important, 
even before we go any further, but it could be argued, probably correctly, 
that this particular distinction becomes increasingly irrelevant after 1900.

        <sigh>

I've also come to realise that my reaction to the use of the concept of 
offensiveness may also be part of a particular background.  The idea of 
"offensiveness", whether that word was used or not, dogged attempts to 
publish Scottish urban texts in the sixties.  So when I hear it spoken, I 
always have a suspicion that the censors won't be far behind.  (Which was 
literally the case at least as late as the middle seventies, just going from 
my own personal experience of direct consorship -- the *most direct kind, 
where a printer would refuse to publish a text.)

Tom Leonard in one of his poems has a speaker dismiss Scottish, specifically 
Glasgow, urban speech as "the language of the gutter."

So I really ought to re-read the entire sequence of posts on this issue, in 
the light of the fact that the offensiveness being complained of, fairly or 
not, wasn't quite the same as the offensiveness I was (mis)hearing as a 
subtext to the discussion.

As a last point, for what it's worth, the term "nigger", while pejorative in 
certain registers of both UK and US English, actually carries a different 
meaning, to a greater or lesser extent, in the two countries.  Bad, but a 
different bad.  Allegedly, one of the editions of Fowler's Modern English 
Usage dealt with this issue, before it was censored out.  I'm going to have 
to chase that, whether it's true or an urban myth, and if it did happen, 
what did it mean?]

Robin









From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 03:19:55 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 01:27:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC><9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net><4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
	<594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <F7206206-F8D8-4438-A143-4A46D1EC0637@myuw.net>

perhaps you misunderstand me. perhaps not.

i would argue that one ought to understand the latin influence on the  
english language in order to understand how the english language  
works, although clearly not to understand the english language.

that's the sense of "understand" i meant. The old french literary  
tradition is an important source for the sort of writing that chaucer  
was doing, and the presence of norman french in the educated life of  
his time was an important influence on his writing stylistically.

clearly one can read a modern "translation" of the wife of bath's tale  
and understand it without knowing any of this, but i think to  
appreciate chaucer's position as the abraham of english literature  
it's important to also understand where he came from.

of course, to do that one doesn't need to understand a lick of old  
french, or even middle english for that matter. but the milieu in  
which his work occurred and was read, that influences both an  
understanding of why he has the continuing importance that he does and  
why the he was able at that time and writing in the way he was to gain  
the prominence that allowed him to be so influential.

that's the understanding i'm referring to.

but then maybe you understand me and just think i'm wrong. that's fine  
too, it wouldn't be the first or even the most significant difference  
we have over linguistic issues as they relate to poetry.

On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> i don't see what the fact that i'm a direct descendant of grampa  
>> jeff  has to do with the old french influence on middle english
>
> To me, the statement that you can't understand Chaucer without  
> understanding the old french influence on middle english parallels  
> the idea that you can't understand English without understanding  
> Latin because words mean what they did in the language where they  
> were originally used.  Thus delapidated means the tiles have fallen  
> off the walls, doesn't it?
>
> Thus the Genetic Fallacy (in semantics).
>
> Now if you'd qualified the statement by "properly" or "fully", I'd  
> still disagree, to an extent, but not to the degree of complete and  
> immediate rejection.
>
> But then at heart, I still have the soul of a New Critic.
>
> Or maybe it's the fundamentalist de Saussure side of me -- I'd see  
> one of the implications of certain elements of _A Course in General  
> Linguistics_ as calling Jason's statement about the pertinence of  
> Anglo-French to Chaucer seriously into question.
>
> It's icing on the cake, not the heart of the matter.
>
> [Quoth the silly sheep.]
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 03:30:15 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 01:38:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>
	<3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC>
	<7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net>

as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of interrelated  
and largely interintelligible forms of communication that is defined  
by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared lexicon, and certain  
morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules. slang terms are an informal  
subset of items in a lexical which connote certain sociological  
markers of group membership. which group membership is somewhat rigid  
and the meanings of the terms associated defined primarily by usage.  
dialect is subset of language that is usually associated with  
geographic or cultural separation where certain common language  
changes such as vowel shifts, mergers, syntactical peculiarities etc,  
that are not shared by the wider language community are all largely  
held in common by the group that speaks the dialect. both slang and  
dialect are important mechanisms of language change and innovation.  
Cant is a subset of terminology similar to jargon which is both  
technically specific to a trade or organization and the understanding  
of which is actually protected by that group in order to preserve that  
groups secrets.

On Sep 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> As an aside, while my brain is still waking up, do we want to try to  
> disentangle the differences between language, dialect, slang, cant  
> -- and possibly even creole vs patois vs pidgin?
>
> I partly say this as it may be relevant to the term "house nigga" as  
> it first surfaced (for me) in the piece by The Execrable Parcelli.
>
> As I see it, in the sense of a black who tries to buy into white  
> culture, it's a slang [sic] usage of recent origin, mostly used by  
> younger blacks and some younger whites.
>
> i.e. it exists in a subset of one register of contemporary  
> USAmerican black speech.
>
> But that's partly because one of the places I'm coming from is the  
> study of cant in English (for which read mostly England but also  
> Scotland and Ireland and USAmerica and Australia) between 1500 and  
> 1900, and in this area, the slang/cant distinction is one of the key  
> elements.
>
> So I'm kinda hung up on the distinction between cant and slang as  
> important, even before we go any further, but it could be argued,  
> probably correctly, that this particular distinction becomes  
> increasingly irrelevant after 1900.
>
>       <sigh>
>
> I've also come to realise that my reaction to the use of the concept  
> of offensiveness may also be part of a particular background.  The  
> idea of "offensiveness", whether that word was used or not, dogged  
> attempts to publish Scottish urban texts in the sixties.  So when I  
> hear it spoken, I always have a suspicion that the censors won't be  
> far behind.  (Which was literally the case at least as late as the  
> middle seventies, just going from my own personal experience of  
> direct consorship -- the *most direct kind, where a printer would  
> refuse to publish a text.)
>
> Tom Leonard in one of his poems has a speaker dismiss Scottish,  
> specifically Glasgow, urban speech as "the language of the gutter."
>
> So I really ought to re-read the entire sequence of posts on this  
> issue, in the light of the fact that the offensiveness being  
> complained of, fairly or not, wasn't quite the same as the  
> offensiveness I was (mis)hearing as a subtext to the discussion.
>
> As a last point, for what it's worth, the term "nigger", while  
> pejorative in certain registers of both UK and US English, actually  
> carries a different meaning, to a greater or lesser extent, in the  
> two countries.  Bad, but a different bad.  Allegedly, one of the  
> editions of Fowler's Modern English Usage dealt with this issue,  
> before it was censored out.  I'm going to have to chase that,  
> whether it's true or an urban myth, and if it did happen, what did  
> it mean?]
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 03:30:15 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 01:38:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat Turner [was Polemic now dialect]
In-Reply-To: <E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <719C7A26D37248A2A42A90363648B5C2@RobinLaptopPC>

K, finally taking up Mark's points in more detail ...

> Some thoughts on a couple of issues, very much off the top of my head, and 
> probably saomewhat under-informed.

I should make the same general caveat, that my own expertise in the area of 
black American speech, both historical and current, is more than limited, 
and (mostly having lived in the UK) singularly non-direct.

(This thread and its consequences illustrate one reason I've tried to avoid 
getting into the issue at a level above general pub conversation before 
now -- it's going to mean doing some work.  I had thought that the issue of 
black American speech was outside my remit in _Morts and Blowens_, and so I 
could legitimately leave it to one side, but that was before I tripped over 
Dublin ballads delivered in "Newgate Style" in the 1780s.  Blah!  See below, 
eventually.)

> As you say, we're talking about "a particular register of black speech." 
> I'll hazard a guess that in the pre-radio, pre-great-migration south there 
> were more different registers between gullah and Richmond than in even the 
> quite varied south we know.

Concur.  Given that varieties of dialect, register, and pronunciation have 
survived *even the advent of radio, I think it's fair to assume that there 
were still more before.  And an urban/rural split, both between and within 
black and white communities.  But in this area, we're up against what's been 
preserved, and how, and by whom -- relatively little non-standard speech in 
America, of any kind or colour, before at least 1900, and *any evidence 
relating to black speech in 19thC America, most of all.  Why, when I'm 
feeling feisty, I refer to the treatment of black 19thC American speech as 
an act of linguistic genocide.  Thinking about it, "linguistic erasure" 
would be a marginally more accurate way of stating it.

It's different in the UK -- the texts may be contentious, and the waters 
muddied, but in the UK you can carry the presentation of non-standard speech 
back to, very specifically, 1530 [Robert Copland's "Highway to the Spital 
House"], with texts which have a high probability of actually being composed 
by cant speakers themselves appearing sporadically but increasingly often 
after 1700.

> Do we know what Nat Turner's speech was like?

The short answer would be, "No," certainly with regard to Turner as an 
individual.  But the texts that Jason began to direct me towards may have 
more information on 19thC black speech generally.  What follows (Twain, 
Stowe, Chandler Harris, Melville) is where I am now --  not much further 
than where I was maybe fifteen or twenty years ago when I began to get 
interested in the issue of the supression of the non-submissive negro and 
his language.

This had to be after coming on Francis Berry's "Morant Bay", which I read 
about 1968.  So when I first encountered Nat Turner, I think in the 
seventies and initially via Styron's novel, I was looking at him in the 
context of black 19thC slave revolts, and how these had been to a large 
degree, along with the actual black speech of the time, written out of 
history.

(And a something that still niggles me now, and is maybe relevant to where 
this issue started from here, what's the implication of it being *white 
writers [Styron and Berry] who write about black slave revolts?)

Here's a link to the actual Nat Turner text -- sheesh, the Web sure makes 
life easier in some ways.  I first read this in a photocopy that I had to go 
to a lot of trouble to obtain, pre-Web, in the seventies.

        http://www.melanet.com/nat/nat.html

Begins:

<<
The Confession
Agreeable to his own appointment, on the evening he was committed to prison, 
with permission of the jailer, I visited NAT on Tuesday the 1st November, 
when, without being questioned at all, he commenced his narrative in the 
following words:

SIR, - You have asked me to give a history of the motives which induced me 
to undertake the late insurrection, as you call it - To do so I must go back 
to the days of my infancy, and even before I was born. I was thirty-one 
years of age the 2nd of October last, and born the property of Benj. Tuner, 
of this county. In my childhood a circumstance occurred which made an 
indelible impression on my mind, and laid the ground work of that 
enthusiasm, which has terminated so fatally to many, both white and black, 
and for which I am about to atone at the gallows. It is here necessary to 
relate this circumstance - trifling as it may seem, it was the commencement 
of that belief which has grown with time, and even now, sir, in this 
dungeon, helpless and forsaken as I am, I cannot divest myself of.
>>

I'm willing to bet that whatever else Turner sounded like, he didn't sound 
like Frederick Douglass.  Or how Douglass presents himself in his writings. 
Apart from anything else, there's no indication that Turner would have had 
the sort of education Douglass did.

Anyone able to be more specific about the register in which The Confessions 
are written down?  To me, it sounds like 19thC Standard American, and my 
attribution of it to a white middle class New York reporter is merely 
fanciful (for which read not just a guess but almost certainly wrong).  I 
don't even know enough to say whether it's *possible to specify the language 
that the Confessions are written in more narrowly than "19thC Standard 
American".  I could, if put to it, probably point to elements which 
distinguish the text *as American (rather than UK, say) English, but that's 
as far as I could go.

So much for Turner.

{Slightly later ...}

Um ...  Well ...

I already want to restate what I said above.  Looks as if there's more 
material on Turner than I thought.  Starting with a slightly fuller version 
of the Confessions (more preliminary matter, etc.).

        http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15333/15333-h/15333-h.htm

Crucially, Turner looks as if he may have been better educated than I 
suggested, which rather shoots down my main argument.

        <sigh>

This was supposed to be a brief notice of Turner before moving onto 
something else, relatively uncontentious other than perhaps the issue of 
cultural expropriation by Styron of black narratives and experience, but ...

Right, I'm going to stop here, rename the thread to attach it specifically 
to Nat Turner, glumly add probably five texts to my rapidly-expanding 
satchel of books-which-will-bankrupt me, and deal with the other points Mark 
raises in separate posts.

Later.

Maybe.

Robin

> Certainly all of the slave narratives, whether "as told to" or written by 
> their narrators, were written in a normative literary English that no one 
> speaks. The intended audience, black and white, would have dismissed them 
> if they had been written in an approximation of everyday speech. The same 
> could probably be said for Hawthorne (yankee) or Poe (Richmond and 
> Baltimore).
>
> Minstrel black speech was another normative construct, which nobody spoke 
> except on the stage.
>
> The dialect that formed in black neighborhoods post-WWII in Chicago and 
> New York is I think considerably more homogeneous. Children whose parents 
> were from different parts of the south grew up together. Out of their 
> speech came the normative speech of rap music, widely disseminated, and 
> it's in turn influenced speech on the street (for white people too, tho to 
> a lesser extent). How permanent this will be is a matter of 
> question--other pop speech has disappeared leaving only a few traces.
>
> The question of appropriation is answered differently in different 
> contexts. Some years ago a US student group attended a seminar in Havana 
> with Miguel Barnet and a black Cuban novelist (sorry, name lost to time). 
> After their presentations a black student attacked Barnet for his 
> appropriation of the lives of black people in his ethnographic novels. He 
> had no right to their stories, let alone their dialect. Barnet was 
> stunned. He's an ethnographer, preserving rapidly disappearing data--when 
> he first wrote there were still cimarrones, but no more. The black 
> novelist was also stunned. Was he allowed to include white people in his 
> novels? They both tried to explain to the girl that while there's 
> certainly plenty of racism in Cuba it never takes the form of cultural 
> ownership. The intended readership, literate post-revolutionary Cubans of 
> all colors (almost all Cubans are literate), would not be put off.
>
> Twain is for some a difficult case. In Huckleberry Finn he gave eloquent 
> voice to speakers of two different subaltern dialects. That they spoke 
> non-standard literary English reduced the possible threat in their 
> narrative for its intended audience, which shared neither the speech nor 
> the class and caste of either Jim or Huck. Is Twain appropriating white 
> trash (and note the Irish name) and black dialect? The public persona he 
> constructed was designed to undercut the tendency to experience the 
> vernacular as inferior.
>
> But that was then. It's much harder to segregate an intended audience from 
> the rest. So critique from the subaltern is instant and insistent, and 
> it's for most of us (Carlo and Bob excepted) difficult to ignore.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark 


From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 03:41:59 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 01:49:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0909092237s2e224c53seb76a4f3ad58eeca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
	<4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
	<594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1F183B7711441AFAAB3D808C0CB932F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<7db1d01b0909092237s2e224c53seb76a4f3ad58eeca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8851A78-82E0-4B3A-ACBC-745143E4FC6B@myuw.net>

another item of interest i would recommend to anyone interested in  
language and African American English is Aaron McGruder's comic strip  
and particularly the cartoon spinoff "The Boondocks."

On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote:

> And [from amazon.co.uk] I've ordered Sociolinguistics: An  
> Introduction to
> Language and Society by Peter Trudgill, ppbk
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sociolinguistics-Introduction-
> Language-Peter-Trudgill/dp/0140289216/ref=pd_sim_b_2
> Best,
> Judy
>
> 2009/9/10 Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com>
>
>> In an attempt to educate myself, I've just ordered:
>>
>>      Lisa J. Green, _African American English: A Linguistic  
>> Introduction_
>>
>> Anyone (Jason?  Mark?) know anything about this text?
>>
>>
>> Robin
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 06:02:25 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 04:10:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>
	<B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>

Ouch!  I seem to be (quite justly) hoist with my own petard here.  I'll work 
through what Jason says, indicating agreement, disagreement, qualification, 
whatever.

This is going to be mostly off the top of my head, unless otherwise stated.


> as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of interrelated 
> and largely interintelligible forms of communication

Agreed, mostly, that what defines a language is the limits of its 
inter-intelligibility.  But even that statement has to be qualified 
slightly -- (geographically) extreme forms of Chinese, as I understand it, 
aren't necessarily mutually intelligible in the spoken form, though they may 
be written identically, but it still makes sense to talk about the (one) 
Chinese language.  (As well as of course individual forms of it such as 
Mandarin, etc,)

To a certain much more minor extent, this even applies in current 
English(es) -- Standard English(es) spoken in London, Leicester, and New 
York will be mutually intelligible (often) but pronounced differently, 
despite being written the same.

But that later case is a language/accent difference rather than a 
language/dialect one.

Also, of course, what we mean by (the) English (Language) shifts in the 
course of time in various ways.  What form of English are the Mercian, West 
Saxon and Northumbrian forms of English spoken in the eighth century in 
what's now known as the British Isles forms *of?

Um ...  What I mean is that before roughly Caxton and the introduction of 
printing to England in the 15thC, what we might mean by "standard English" 
differs from what can be taken from the term later -- is there or is there 
not a norm to diverge from?  (Added to which, British English, or possibly 
even more narrowly English-Spoken-In-England is [or was] unusual in being 
defined by a non-geographic norm -- according to Caxton (was it?), the 
English spoken London (presumably by courtiers rather than plebs) and the 
universities of Oxford and Cambridge, later a (social, not geographical) 
standard which emerged via the (English) public school system and Oxbridge. 
Though whether this still applies in any meaningful sense in the UK, leave 
alone elsewhere ...

So yeah, as a working point, I'm prepared to accept that what distinguishes 
one language from another is whether or not the two are mutually 
intelligible.  With caveats and qualifications.

> that is defined  by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared lexicon, 
> and certain  morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules.

I'd give a different weight of importance to most of the above in defining 
what is or is not the core common element of what constitues a language --  
syntactic rules having easily the most weight, phonetic elements having the 
least.  (See above on accent vs. dialect.)  The idea of a shared lexicon is 
trickier, not least because different individual speakers of the language 
will have different breadths of lexis.  Mostly I'd feel it's a matter of 
degree -- at what point do the differences become such that it makes more 
sense to talk about a different language or dialect than to think in terms 
of variation within a single language?

In one sense, there's a truth in the statement that current English and 
German and Dutch are simply variants of a single Germanic language.  It may 
be true, but (other than historically) it isn't a particularly *useful 
observation.

> slang terms are an informal  subset of items in a lexical which connote 
> certain sociological  markers of group membership.

I'd pretty much agree, especially as slang tends to retain the syntactic 
structure of the original language of the speakers.  But it's more a case of 
a *replacement of lexical items than slang forming a subset.

> which group membership is somewhat rigid  and the meanings of the terms 
> associated defined primarily by usage.

Yup.  Slang (as opposed to cant) tends to operate as an overt group 
signifier.  It's exclusionary, but in a different way and to a lesser degree 
from cant.  The slang/cant distinction was first articulated (I think) by 
Eric Partridge.  I thought I could find a neat summation in Julie Coleman, 
but she covers the issue across three pages (pp. 3-5) in her _History of 
Slang and Cant Dictionaries_, Vol. 1.  Too much to type out.

Partly online at:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0199557098/ref=sib_rdr_prev2_ex3?ie=UTF8&keywords=jargon&p=S00H&twc=19&checkSum=xfvVJkSA9uKsfVQdV1pE0zEeaGH4Ch54bMUCWPjpBDE%3D#reader-page

... takes you to page 3, and you can page through to at least page five.

        SNIP

> Cant is a subset of terminology similar to jargon which is both 
> technically specific to a trade or organization and the understanding  of 
> which is actually protected by that group in order to preserve that 
> groups secrets.

That I *would quarrel with, especially the "subset [sic] of terminology" 
point, though not the sense that cant is meant to be intelligible only to 
members of the group who use it.  (Again, I'd see what is happening as a 
replacement of lexical items.)  Also the sentence above seems deal with only 
cant as used in professions (which personally I'd tend to term "jargon"), 
which admittedly is one of the several senses of the word (another, probably 
irrelevant, is cant as hypocritical speech.)  It totally omits the sense 
which is crucial here (if any sense of cant is at all), and the earliest, 
cant as the speech of vagabonds and criminals (gypsies, outliers, etc.), 
what begins life called peddler's french, later called cant, St. Giles 
Greek, then flash [where it's already approaching slang] and mostly dies out 
as such around 1900.

Which is mostly to say that whatever we're talking about in this thread, 
it's not cant.

Robin 


From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 06:44:12 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 04:51:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>
	<B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net>
	<D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net>

i was actually thinking of criminals as tradesmen in a sort of  
informal guild (much like "the johnsons" of USAmerican vagabond  
culture prior to WWII), which is to say, my take on cant does sort of  
include what you're talking about. I don't know for sure because my  
french isn't good enough and i can't find my copy of the book anyway,  
but isn't there a link to british st giles greek in the Les Miserables  
section on the thieves cant of 18th c. paris? I know that one slang  
term from french cant that made its way into US usage briefly was  
"greek" for a card shark, and there's a specific technique in card  
cheating called a "greek deal"



On Sep 10, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Ouch!  I seem to be (quite justly) hoist with my own petard here.   
> I'll work through what Jason says, indicating agreement,  
> disagreement, qualification, whatever.
>
> This is going to be mostly off the top of my head, unless otherwise  
> stated.
>
>
>> as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of  
>> interrelated and largely interintelligible forms of communication
>
> Agreed, mostly, that what defines a language is the limits of its  
> inter-intelligibility.  But even that statement has to be qualified  
> slightly -- (geographically) extreme forms of Chinese, as I  
> understand it, aren't necessarily mutually intelligible in the  
> spoken form, though they may be written identically, but it still  
> makes sense to talk about the (one) Chinese language.  (As well as  
> of course individual forms of it such as Mandarin, etc,)
>
> To a certain much more minor extent, this even applies in current  
> English(es) -- Standard English(es) spoken in London, Leicester, and  
> New York will be mutually intelligible (often) but pronounced  
> differently, despite being written the same.
>
> But that later case is a language/accent difference rather than a  
> language/dialect one.
>
> Also, of course, what we mean by (the) English (Language) shifts in  
> the course of time in various ways.  What form of English are the  
> Mercian, West Saxon and Northumbrian forms of English spoken in the  
> eighth century in what's now known as the British Isles forms *of?
>
> Um ...  What I mean is that before roughly Caxton and the  
> introduction of printing to England in the 15thC, what we might mean  
> by "standard English" differs from what can be taken from the term  
> later -- is there or is there not a norm to diverge from?  (Added to  
> which, British English, or possibly even more narrowly English- 
> Spoken-In-England is [or was] unusual in being defined by a non- 
> geographic norm -- according to Caxton (was it?), the English spoken  
> London (presumably by courtiers rather than plebs) and the  
> universities of Oxford and Cambridge, later a (social, not  
> geographical) standard which emerged via the (English) public school  
> system and Oxbridge. Though whether this still applies in any  
> meaningful sense in the UK, leave alone elsewhere ...
>
> So yeah, as a working point, I'm prepared to accept that what  
> distinguishes one language from another is whether or not the two  
> are mutually intelligible.  With caveats and qualifications.
>
>> that is defined  by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared  
>> lexicon, and certain  morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules.
>
> I'd give a different weight of importance to most of the above in  
> defining what is or is not the core common element of what  
> constitues a language --  syntactic rules having easily the most  
> weight, phonetic elements having the least.  (See above on accent  
> vs. dialect.)  The idea of a shared lexicon is trickier, not least  
> because different individual speakers of the language will have  
> different breadths of lexis.  Mostly I'd feel it's a matter of  
> degree -- at what point do the differences become such that it makes  
> more sense to talk about a different language or dialect than to  
> think in terms of variation within a single language?
>
> In one sense, there's a truth in the statement that current English  
> and German and Dutch are simply variants of a single Germanic  
> language.  It may be true, but (other than historically) it isn't a  
> particularly *useful observation.
>
>> slang terms are an informal  subset of items in a lexical which  
>> connote certain sociological  markers of group membership.
>
> I'd pretty much agree, especially as slang tends to retain the  
> syntactic structure of the original language of the speakers.  But  
> it's more a case of a *replacement of lexical items than slang  
> forming a subset.
>
>> which group membership is somewhat rigid  and the meanings of the  
>> terms associated defined primarily by usage.
>
> Yup.  Slang (as opposed to cant) tends to operate as an overt group  
> signifier.  It's exclusionary, but in a different way and to a  
> lesser degree from cant.  The slang/cant distinction was first  
> articulated (I think) by Eric Partridge.  I thought I could find a  
> neat summation in Julie Coleman, but she covers the issue across  
> three pages (pp. 3-5) in her _History of Slang and Cant  
> Dictionaries_, Vol. 1.  Too much to type out.
>
> Partly online at:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0199557098/ref=sib_rdr_prev2_ex3?ie=UTF8&keywords=jargon&p=S00H&twc=19&checkSum=xfvVJkSA9uKsfVQdV1pE0zEeaGH4Ch54bMUCWPjpBDE%3D#reader-page
>
> ... takes you to page 3, and you can page through to at least page  
> five.
>
>       SNIP
>
>> Cant is a subset of terminology similar to jargon which is both  
>> technically specific to a trade or organization and the  
>> understanding  of which is actually protected by that group in  
>> order to preserve that groups secrets.
>
> That I *would quarrel with, especially the "subset [sic] of  
> terminology" point, though not the sense that cant is meant to be  
> intelligible only to members of the group who use it.  (Again, I'd  
> see what is happening as a replacement of lexical items.)  Also the  
> sentence above seems deal with only cant as used in professions  
> (which personally I'd tend to term "jargon"), which admittedly is  
> one of the several senses of the word (another, probably irrelevant,  
> is cant as hypocritical speech.)  It totally omits the sense which  
> is crucial here (if any sense of cant is at all), and the earliest,  
> cant as the speech of vagabonds and criminals (gypsies, outliers,  
> etc.), what begins life called peddler's french, later called cant,  
> St. Giles Greek, then flash [where it's already approaching slang]  
> and mostly dies out as such around 1900.
>
> Which is mostly to say that whatever we're talking about in this  
> thread, it's not cant.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 06:48:28 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 04:56:42 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <F7206206-F8D8-4438-A143-4A46D1EC0637@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC><9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net><4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC><C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net><594E134351724DA590DE795CD32F1313@RobinLaptopPC>
	<F7206206-F8D8-4438-A143-4A46D1EC0637@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <C198BAD692CA43C7B565658DBA2B6C0B@RobinLaptopPC>

> perhaps you misunderstand me. perhaps not.

Perhaps ...

> i would argue that one ought to understand the latin influence on the 
> english language in order to understand how the english language  works, 
> although clearly not to understand the english language.

Well, that I quite wholly disagree with.  Latin runs well behind Norman 
French and even Scandinavian (I think) in its influence on the English 
lexis, and the only effect of it on English syntax was to make speakers 
unhappy when they split an infinitive or used a double negative (which is a 
perfectly acceptable form of intensifier in Greek, as it is in English 
before the Latin-influenced grammarians got their hands on the language).

Now if you said we need to understand Latin in order to see how for hundreds 
of years, formal grammarians tried to (mis)interpret the syntactic rules of 
English through the lens of a wholy different language, I might just be 
inclined to agree

> that's the sense of "understand" i meant. The old french literary 
> tradition is an important source for the sort of writing that chaucer  was 
> doing, and the presence of norman french in the educated life of  his time 
> was an important influence on his writing stylistically.

This mixes together several different things -- the influence of 
Norman-French literary forms (and texts)  on Chaucer, the Romance of the 
Rose side of his writing, his growing up in an Anglo-Norman court, and the 
influence of Anglo-Norman on the English of Chaucer's time.  (Or perhaps 
even more locally on Chaucer's language, since neither Langland nor the 
Gawain poet were influenced by Anglo-Norman to the same degree.)

But why French rather than say Italian?  _Troilus and Criseyde_ draws on the 
Italian Boccacio not some cheese-eating surrender-monkey.

> clearly one can read a modern "translation" of the wife of bath's tale 
> and understand it without knowing any of this,

Actually, you can with little difficulty read the Wife of Bath's Tale with a 
large degree of understanding in the original Middle English spelling 
without that much difficulty, without any knowledge whatsoever of Norman 
French.  Even easier to understand, if you listen to it read aloud.

> but i think to  appreciate chaucer's position as the abraham of english 
> literature  it's important to also understand where he came from.

Or what he led to.  I'd think a knowledge of what was done with Chaucer by 
the Scottish poets, William Dunbar in "Ane Tretise of the Tua Merit Wemen 
and the Wedo" (cf. the wife of Bath) and Robert Henryson in "The Testament 
of Cresseid" (Troilus) would be more illuminating.  What you have there is 
the response of major poets who are roughly contemporary with Chaucer to his 
work.  Better that than a scrutiny of his Anglo-French sources.

> of course, to do that one doesn't need to understand a lick of old 
> french, or even middle english for that matter.

Um ...  I think it might be difficult to understand Chaucer without *some 
knowledge of (middle) English.  Unless you read him translated or 
modernised.  But then, he did write in English, however one qualifies this, 
rather than French.

> but the milieu in  which his work occurred and was read, that influences 
> both an  understanding of why he has the continuing importance that he 
> does and  why the he was able at that time and writing in the way he was 
> to gain  the prominence that allowed him to be so influential.
>
> that's the understanding i'm referring to.

Ah -- you mean *cultural understanding.  Now I see.   <g>

To be clear, I think all kinds of material, including the Anglo-French 
dimension you point to, can be useful in extending [sic] our understanding 
of Chaucer.  Where I disagree is that *anything (this is the unreconstructed 
New Critic in me) is "crucial".  Other than linguistic knowledge of the 
language itself, sometimes known as a dictionary.  And I certainly *don't 
feel that Anglo-Norman rates very high up in the list of useful extensions 
of knowledge when it comes to Chaucer.  I'd put an understanding of the 
Chaucerian manuscript tradition above that, for instance, though I wouldn't 
ever say you had to have at least considered how Chaucer's poems appear and 
evolve in MSS as *necessary in order to read his poetry.

There is no priviledged knowledge, other than linguistic.

> but then maybe you understand me and just think i'm wrong. that's fine 
> too,

As it turns out, I do think you're wrong in this instance.

> it wouldn't be the first or even the most significant difference  we have 
> over linguistic issues as they relate to poetry.

Have men died, and the worms eaten them, because of a disagreement over 
metrics?

The sad answer is probably, "yes".

Robin



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 09:22:29 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 07:30:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC><B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net><D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <3E67BEA3D9E343528EBF2C7A6CC86529@RobinLaptopPC>

>i was actually thinking of criminals as tradesmen in a sort of  informal 
>guild (much like "the johnsons" of USAmerican vagabond  culture prior to 
>WWII), which is to say, my take on cant does sort of  include what you're 
>talking about.

There's an overlap, certainly, and the hierarchy of vagabonds found in 
Awdrey's _Fraternity of Vagabonds_ and Harman's _Caveat for Common 
Cursitors_ in the 1560s might be at least partly modeled on the craft 
guilds.  But the OED (for what it's worth in this area) gives CANT v3 as the 
language of thieves and vagabonds going back to Harman in 1567, and doesn't 
cite a use of the strictly tradesman meaning till Ben Jonson in 1625.  Why 
(among other reasons) I prefer to use jargon as the term for trade cant used 
by lawyers and cobblers.

Mostly, there is a continuity between the cant which appears in Copland in 
1530 and street speech in New York at least as late as 1850 -- some words 
change, as morts morph into blowens, but some, like "cove" for a man, could 
have been spoken on the Street any time between 1530 and 1900.

After 1900 ...  Well, nothing lasts forever.

But this is specifically thieves' cant -- cant in the other sense of trade 
jargon doesn't really impinge on this.

All of which has to be taken with a pinch of salt, as the reliability of the 
informants is more than a little dubious.  You can't even trust the thieves 
themselves in this area. Thomas Mount shortly before he's hung in Rhode 
Island in 1791 gives a blood-curdling description of the organization of 
thieves which permeates America, as does the Napoleon of Burglars when he's 
talking to the Reverend Tefft in 1848, but I'm inclined to think this is a 
folk-memory of an ideal thieves' commonwealth going back to Harman.

The oddest things get preserved, and cross the water.  Among the songs that 
Mount dictates which he remembers hearing sung is this:

A Song made by a Flash Cove the Evening before his Execution.

My blowen came here t'other night,
She fetch'd us a jorum of diddle,
To the prisoners it gave great delight,
And we hopp'd it away to the fiddle.
But our trade of diving doth fail,
My blowen has chang'd habitations;
For now she pads in the gaol,
And laughs at the flats of the nation.
But at length the dull-gown's-man comes in
And tips me soft tales of repentance,
When on him I do cast my brow,
I care not one fig for his sentence.
By th' gullet I'll be ty'd very tight
To-morrow:-my blowen pray for us,
My peepers will be hid from the light,
The tumbler shoves off, so I morris.

Thing is, this is, though Mount doesn't know it, two stanzas from "John 
Sheppard's Lament," supposedly composed by Jack Sheppard and printed the day 
after his execution in London in 1728, over sixty years and 3,000 miles away 
from where Mount was hanged in turn.  Even in England, the text gets pretty 
rapidly detached from Sheppard and usually appears as "The Bowman Prig's 
Farewell."

It's difficult to know who to trust in this area.  Julie Coleman and 
Jonathan Green, both of whom I have an enormous admiration for, blithely 
dismiss Copland's "Highway to the Spital House" of 1530 as mostly doggerel, 
only of interest for the six lines of cant near the end.  When I read the 
poem, my jaw dropped -- Copland seems to be able to present vagabonds 
speaking in at least three different registers, and to be acutely aware of 
the difference.

This particular dismissal seems to go back to Farmer's _Musa Pedestris_ of 
1896, where Farmer not only disses Copland, but manages to get the text of 
the passage he prints quite totally wrong.

        <sigh>

It would be nice to have more of the work already done, but I've realised 
for some time that I'm going to have to re-edit _Musa Pedestris_ from the 
ground up.  Farmer's work was crucial when it was printed, but it's a crying 
shame that it's *still the key text in this area.  When I'm not consumed by 
admiration for Farmer, I could happily strangle him.

> I don't know for sure because my  french isn't good enough and i can't 
> find my copy of the book anyway,  but isn't there a link to british st 
> giles greek in the Les Miserables  section on the thieves cant of 18th c. 
> paris?

I'll have to chase this further -- I'd put it to one side while I got on 
with other things -- but almost certainly there would be.  Hugo's informant 
here (and the model for Vautrin and Valjean) was Eugene Vidocq, and when 
Vidocq wasn't being a criminal or catching them, he passed his time writing 
on French cant (in _Les Voleurs_).

Another Hugo novel, _Le dernier jour d'un condamn?_, has a poem in cant 
which may have been given to him by Vidocq, and ends up translated into 
English by Reynolds of _Mysteries and Miseries of London_ fame.

[Chapter 11 of _Morts and Blowens_ will deal with Vidocq, which is how come 
I happen to know this.]

> I know that one slang  term from french cant that made its way into US 
> usage briefly was  "greek" for a card shark, and there's a specific 
> technique in card  cheating called a "greek deal"

Coincidentally enough, the canting terms used by English card sharps get 
documented before Harman's _Caveat_ (1567), in Gilbert Walker's _A manifest 
detection of the most vyle and detestable use of dice play_ in 1552.  Robert 
Greene in his coney-catching pamphlets of the early 1590s manages to mash 
the two traditions together, just to muddy the waters even further, but the 
specific card-sharping terms tend to drop out of use pretty quickly.

Robin 


From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 09:55:36 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu Sep 10 08:03:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC>
	<9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net>
	<4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC>
	<C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909100655hf4d61b5sd5dffa1bc5c76a18@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, I'm a direct descendant of my grampa too,of two of them in fact.

Hal

"The days are wonderful and the nights
are wonderful and the life is pleasant."
                   --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

> i don't see what the fact that i'm a direct descendant of grampa jeff has
> to do with the old french influence on middle english
>
>
> On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>  how can we understand chaucer, after all, without recognizing the
>>> important influence of norman french on the language of the literate class
>>> during his life?
>>>
>>
>> Perfectly easily, if we ignore the Genetic Fallacy.  <g>
>>
>> But that's yet another argument.
>>
>> K, I'll keep it frontchannel, as Jason and Hal at least don't seem to
>> mind.
>>
>> Just ordered a second-hand copy of _Soul Music_ -- about ?9 including p&p
>> in the UK.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 09:59:41 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 08:07:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909100655hf4d61b5sd5dffa1bc5c76a18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><6FCE40E341F941A9B028FB53B951EB9F@RobinLaptopPC><9774BB10-CE9E-4C6A-A21F-556240DD9A58@myuw.net><4A681ECCF49C49FC860BEDF558A2E80A@RobinLaptopPC><C4540D82-DD86-48E8-A848-EE0524F63158@myuw.net>
	<f160a1210909100655hf4d61b5sd5dffa1bc5c76a18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C317164DA2DC4FA698204B5833E69A62@RobinLaptopPC>

Bet my grampa could whup your grampa any week of the day.

Robin

<<
Hey, I'm a direct descendant of my grampa too,
of two of them in fact.

Hal
>>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

i don't see what the fact that i'm a direct descendant of grampa jeff has to 
do with the old french influence on middle english



From junction at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 10 11:22:00 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Thu Sep 10 09:29:43 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
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Message-ID: <E1MllTO-0002XP-FI@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

To muddy the waters a bit, a "language," and which dialects it 
contains, is often defined politically, a process that continues. 
Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are mutually understandable and 
syntactically identical. As I've been told, the same could be said 
for Ukrainian/Russian. Auvergnat is a French dialect only because the 
French say so. Several of the Sicilian dialects are no more 
intelligible to a Tuscan than Portuguese, but they're dialects of 
Italian. Literate Arabs everywhere read the same dialect, but 
Lebanese and Moroccans are mutually unintelligible.

Robin, how is Geordie dealt with? To my ear it's a lot closer to 
Glaswegian than to London, but it's on the other side of the Tweed. 
(speaking of unintelligible.)

Mark

At 06:02 AM 9/10/2009, you wrote:
>Ouch!  I seem to be (quite justly) hoist with my own petard 
>here.  I'll work through what Jason says, indicating agreement, 
>disagreement, qualification, whatever.
>
>This is going to be mostly off the top of my head, unless otherwise stated.
>
>
>>as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of 
>>interrelated and largely interintelligible forms of communication
>
>Agreed, mostly, that what defines a language is the limits of its 
>inter-intelligibility.  But even that statement has to be qualified 
>slightly -- (geographically) extreme forms of Chinese, as I 
>understand it, aren't necessarily mutually intelligible in the 
>spoken form, though they may be written identically, but it still 
>makes sense to talk about the (one) Chinese language.  (As well as 
>of course individual forms of it such as Mandarin, etc,)
>
>To a certain much more minor extent, this even applies in current 
>English(es) -- Standard English(es) spoken in London, Leicester, and 
>New York will be mutually intelligible (often) but pronounced 
>differently, despite being written the same.
>
>But that later case is a language/accent difference rather than a 
>language/dialect one.
>
>Also, of course, what we mean by (the) English (Language) shifts in 
>the course of time in various ways.  What form of English are the 
>Mercian, West Saxon and Northumbrian forms of English spoken in the 
>eighth century in what's now known as the British Isles forms *of?
>
>Um ...  What I mean is that before roughly Caxton and the 
>introduction of printing to England in the 15thC, what we might mean 
>by "standard English" differs from what can be taken from the term 
>later -- is there or is there not a norm to diverge from?  (Added to 
>which, British English, or possibly even more narrowly 
>English-Spoken-In-England is [or was] unusual in being defined by a 
>non-geographic norm -- according to Caxton (was it?), the English 
>spoken London (presumably by courtiers rather than plebs) and the 
>universities of Oxford and Cambridge, later a (social, not 
>geographical) standard which emerged via the (English) public school 
>system and Oxbridge. Though whether this still applies in any 
>meaningful sense in the UK, leave alone elsewhere ...
>
>So yeah, as a working point, I'm prepared to accept that what 
>distinguishes one language from another is whether or not the two 
>are mutually intelligible.  With caveats and qualifications.
>
>>that is defined  by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared 
>>lexicon, and certain  morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules.
>
>I'd give a different weight of importance to most of the above in 
>defining what is or is not the core common element of what 
>constitues a language --
>syntactic rules having easily the most weight, phonetic elements 
>having the least.  (See above on accent vs. dialect.)  The idea of a 
>shared lexicon is trickier, not least because different individual 
>speakers of the language will have different breadths of 
>lexis.  Mostly I'd feel it's a matter of degree -- at what point do 
>the differences become such that it makes more sense to talk about a 
>different language or dialect than to think in terms of variation 
>within a single language?
>
>In one sense, there's a truth in the statement that current English 
>and German and Dutch are simply variants of a single Germanic 
>language.  It may be true, but (other than historically) it isn't a 
>particularly *useful observation.

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 11:42:09 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 09:50:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1MllTO-0002XP-FI@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC><B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net><D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MllTO-0002XP-FI@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5649789104AA4BEAB85D2FFEC91EF867@RobinLaptopPC>

> To muddy the waters a bit, a "language," and which dialects it contains, 
> is often defined politically, a process that continues. Croatian, Bosnian, 
> and Serbian are mutually understandable and syntactically identical. As 
> I've been told, the same could be said for Ukrainian/Russian. Auvergnat is 
> a French dialect only because the French say so. Several of the Sicilian 
> dialects are no more intelligible to a Tuscan than Portuguese, but they're 
> dialects of Italian. Literate Arabs everywhere read the same dialect, but 
> Lebanese and Moroccans are mutually unintelligible.

Boundary problems in more than one sense, Mark?  Hard cases make bad law ...

> Robin, how is Geordie dealt with? To my ear it's a lot closer to 
> Glaswegian than to London, but it's on the other side of the Tweed. 
> (speaking of unintelligible.)

You're asking the wrong person this, Mark -- the Birk has a much better ear 
than me, and would answer better.  He's on the list, I think, and may 
respond.  If he hasn't picked up on your post in the next day, I'll nudge 
him backchannel.

Robin 


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 13:43:02 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 11:51:16 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
References: <f3cd389f0909071600y4fe03e8p58afc96acc3cc438@mail.gmail.com><096DE7F03178402B88228704A25F50E7@RobinLaptopPC><4AA5CE2A.5000704@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0909072305o1fe44c27nc0f2ead498aff346@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA67D2D.5050005@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <8F6C2F12C9524CB8A2C7DFA7C1332721@RobinLaptopPC>

> Aristophanes did the equivalent, Shakespeare did it, Shaw did it.  I think 
> the wimps' criminalization of dialect offensive to people with IQs over 
> 90.

This is slightly belated, but the penny finally dropped.  (Aristophanes was 
easy and I've dealt with Shakespeare already)  But invoking Shaw, by any 
chance did you mean _Pygmalion_?

I hope not, since that's meant to present, via the Henry Sweet character 
(Professor Higgins), an accurate transcription of one then-current London 
dialect, or version of pronunciation, or whatever.

Just the opposite of linguistic stereotyping, so kinda counter to the point 
you seem to be making.

Robin 


From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 18:43:06 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 16:50:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <3E67BEA3D9E343528EBF2C7A6CC86529@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC><B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net><D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net>
	<3E67BEA3D9E343528EBF2C7A6CC86529@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <A32B0029-1B74-44B5-8C64-2FD6C066CBC2@myuw.net>


On Sep 10, 2009, at 6:22 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> i was actually thinking of criminals as tradesmen in a sort of   
>> informal guild (much like "the johnsons" of USAmerican vagabond   
>> culture prior to WWII), which is to say, my take on cant does sort  
>> of  include what you're talking about.
>
> There's an overlap, certainly, and the hierarchy of vagabonds found  
> in Awdrey's _Fraternity of Vagabonds_ and Harman's _Caveat for  
> Common Cursitors_ in the 1560s might be at least partly modeled on  
> the craft guilds.  But the OED (for what it's worth in this area)  
> gives CANT v3 as the language of thieves and vagabonds going back to  
> Harman in 1567, and doesn't cite a use of the strictly tradesman  
> meaning till Ben Jonson in 1625.  Why (among other reasons) I prefer  
> to use jargon as the term for trade cant used by lawyers and cobblers.
I think that's the reason Maurer used "jargon" in "language of the  
underworld" if I recall correctly. I like the term cant tho and will  
plead archaism happily in trying to revive the term.

> Mostly, there is a continuity between the cant which appears in  
> Copland in 1530 and street speech in New York at least as late as  
> 1850 -- some words change, as morts morph into blowens, but some,  
> like "cove" for a man, could have been spoken on the Street any time  
> between 1530 and 1900.
>
> After 1900 ...  Well, nothing lasts forever.
>
But there is still in the US a presence at least into the nineteen  
thirties and here i think both Jack Black and David Maurer are  
informative. Beyond that I'm not enough of a cultural linguistics wonk  
to know if there is reasonable source material, but I do know that  
Jack Black's "You Can't Win" was a considerable influence on William  
S. Burroughs, so there's an influence lasting into the nineteen  
eighties at least.
{SNIP}
> A Song made by a Flash Cove the Evening before his Execution.
>
> My blowen came here t'other night,
> She fetch'd us a jorum of diddle,
> To the prisoners it gave great delight,
> And we hopp'd it away to the fiddle.
> But our trade of diving doth fail,
> My blowen has chang'd habitations;
> For now she pads in the gaol,
> And laughs at the flats of the nation.
> But at length the dull-gown's-man comes in
> And tips me soft tales of repentance,
> When on him I do cast my brow,
> I care not one fig for his sentence.
> By th' gullet I'll be ty'd very tight
> To-morrow:-my blowen pray for us,
> My peepers will be hid from the light,
> The tumbler shoves off, so I morris.
>
> Thing is, this is, though Mount doesn't know it, two stanzas from  
> "John Sheppard's Lament," supposedly composed by Jack Sheppard and  
> printed the day after his execution in London in 1728, over sixty  
> years and 3,000 miles away from where Mount was hanged in turn.   
> Even in England, the text gets pretty rapidly detached from Sheppard  
> and usually appears as "The Bowman Prig's Farewell."
>
> It's difficult to know who to trust in this area.  Julie Coleman and  
> Jonathan Green, both of whom I have an enormous admiration for,  
> blithely dismiss Copland's "Highway to the Spital House" of 1530 as  
> mostly doggerel, only of interest for the six lines of cant near the  
> end.  When I read the poem, my jaw dropped -- Copland seems to be  
> able to present vagabonds speaking in at least three different  
> registers, and to be acutely aware of the difference.
>
I think there may be a tradition of "gallow's laments" that's worth  
pursuing although again I'm well outside an area of even autodidactic  
knowledge on this point. Of particular note tho might be the fiddle  
tune "mcpherson's lament" which folk history among celtic folk  
musicians holds was debuted on the gallows by the famous fiddler James  
McPherson right before he was hanged for robbery sometime in the 18th  
century. I've always marvelled that if this was true  there were  
people in attendance at the performance who retained the piece well  
enough to pass it along into the folk music tradition. It makes sense  
that it would be, as it's a peculiar and lovely piece of music, but  
I've always thought there had to be something more to that story and I  
wonder if this sort of mythmaking might play into the general culture  
from which all this material emerged.
>
>
> It would be nice to have more of the work already done, but I've  
> realised for some time that I'm going to have to re-edit _Musa  
> Pedestris_ from the ground up.  Farmer's work was crucial when it  
> was printed, but it's a crying shame that it's *still the key text  
> in this area.  When I'm not consumed by admiration for Farmer, I  
> could happily strangle him.
>
>> I don't know for sure because my  french isn't good enough and i  
>> can't find my copy of the book anyway,  but isn't there a link to  
>> british st giles greek in the Les Miserables  section on the  
>> thieves cant of 18th c. paris?
>
> I'll have to chase this further -- I'd put it to one side while I  
> got on with other things -- but almost certainly there would be.   
> Hugo's informant here (and the model for Vautrin and Valjean) was  
> Eugene Vidocq, and when Vidocq wasn't being a criminal or catching  
> them, he passed his time writing on French cant (in _Les Voleurs_).

At the same time, again, I'm not sure the master of crime is ALL that  
reliable of a source. There's enough boasting and wild happenstance in  
his autobiography to make one question just how much of his "criminal  
background" is exaggeration. At least for me. Maybe scholars on the  
field have a different view, but I've always looked at Vidocq with  
narrowed eyes.

> Coincidentally enough, the canting terms used by English card sharps  
> get documented before Harman's _Caveat_ (1567), in Gilbert Walker's  
> _A manifest detection of the most vyle and detestable use of dice  
> play_ in 1552.  Robert Greene in his coney-catching pamphlets of the  
> early 1590s manages to mash the two traditions together, just to  
> muddy the waters even further, but the specific card-sharping terms  
> tend to drop out of use pretty quickly.
At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by  
magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a  
short section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's  
"The Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one  
of the few early sources on performance magic. There's also an  
explicit interest among magician's in their own writing with card  
cheats and conmen beginning with the French magician Robert Houdin's  
Les Tricheries des Grecques and continuing into the twentieth century  
with Dai Vernon's obsession and fascination with card sharps in the  
americas, going so far as to track down a lot of working sharps to  
learn their sleights, and which is seen in the obsessions of current  
performers like Ricky Jay and Simon Lovell who have both written books  
on historical and contemporary conmen, and Harry Anderson who  
practically built a career out of playing a criminal from the 30s/40s.
  
From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 10 19:02:35 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Thu Sep 10 17:10:10 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <E1MllTO-0002XP-FI@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com>
	<5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net>
	<3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC>
	<7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC>
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	<D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC>
	<E1MllTO-0002XP-FI@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F5FA06DC-D15D-48FB-9F46-871ABA09CBC4@myuw.net>

urdu and hindi too.
On Sep 10, 2009, at 8:22 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:

> To muddy the waters a bit, a "language," and which dialects it  
> contains, is often defined politically, a process that continues.  
> Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are mutually understandable and  
> syntactically identical. As I've been told, the same could be said  
> for Ukrainian/Russian. Auvergnat is a French dialect only because  
> the French say so. Several of the Sicilian dialects are no more  
> intelligible to a Tuscan than Portuguese, but they're dialects of  
> Italian. Literate Arabs everywhere read the same dialect, but  
> Lebanese and Moroccans are mutually unintelligible.
>
> Robin, how is Geordie dealt with? To my ear it's a lot closer to  
> Glaswegian than to London, but it's on the other side of the Tweed.  
> (speaking of unintelligible.)
>
> Mark
>
> At 06:02 AM 9/10/2009, you wrote:
>> Ouch!  I seem to be (quite justly) hoist with my own petard here.   
>> I'll work through what Jason says, indicating agreement,  
>> disagreement, qualification, whatever.
>>
>> This is going to be mostly off the top of my head, unless otherwise  
>> stated.
>>
>>
>>> as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of  
>>> interrelated and largely interintelligible forms of communication
>>
>> Agreed, mostly, that what defines a language is the limits of its  
>> inter-intelligibility.  But even that statement has to be qualified  
>> slightly -- (geographically) extreme forms of Chinese, as I  
>> understand it, aren't necessarily mutually intelligible in the  
>> spoken form, though they may be written identically, but it still  
>> makes sense to talk about the (one) Chinese language.  (As well as  
>> of course individual forms of it such as Mandarin, etc,)
>>
>> To a certain much more minor extent, this even applies in current  
>> English(es) -- Standard English(es) spoken in London, Leicester,  
>> and New York will be mutually intelligible (often) but pronounced  
>> differently, despite being written the same.
>>
>> But that later case is a language/accent difference rather than a  
>> language/dialect one.
>>
>> Also, of course, what we mean by (the) English (Language) shifts in  
>> the course of time in various ways.  What form of English are the  
>> Mercian, West Saxon and Northumbrian forms of English spoken in the  
>> eighth century in what's now known as the British Isles forms *of?
>>
>> Um ...  What I mean is that before roughly Caxton and the  
>> introduction of printing to England in the 15thC, what we might  
>> mean by "standard English" differs from what can be taken from the  
>> term later -- is there or is there not a norm to diverge from?   
>> (Added to which, British English, or possibly even more narrowly  
>> English-Spoken-In-England is [or was] unusual in being defined by a  
>> non-geographic norm -- according to Caxton (was it?), the English  
>> spoken London (presumably by courtiers rather than plebs) and the  
>> universities of Oxford and Cambridge, later a (social, not  
>> geographical) standard which emerged via the (English) public  
>> school system and Oxbridge. Though whether this still applies in  
>> any meaningful sense in the UK, leave alone elsewhere ...
>>
>> So yeah, as a working point, I'm prepared to accept that what  
>> distinguishes one language from another is whether or not the two  
>> are mutually intelligible.  With caveats and qualifications.
>>
>>> that is defined  by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared  
>>> lexicon, and certain  morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules.
>>
>> I'd give a different weight of importance to most of the above in  
>> defining what is or is not the core common element of what  
>> constitues a language --
>> syntactic rules having easily the most weight, phonetic elements  
>> having the least.  (See above on accent vs. dialect.)  The idea of  
>> a shared lexicon is trickier, not least because different  
>> individual speakers of the language will have different breadths of  
>> lexis.  Mostly I'd feel it's a matter of degree -- at what point do  
>> the differences become such that it makes more sense to talk about  
>> a different language or dialect than to think in terms of variation  
>> within a single language?
>>
>> In one sense, there's a truth in the statement that current English  
>> and German and Dutch are simply variants of a single Germanic  
>> language.  It may be true, but (other than historically) it isn't a  
>> particularly *useful observation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 10 19:44:08 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu Sep 10 17:52:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <A32B0029-1B74-44B5-8C64-2FD6C066CBC2@myuw.net>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC><B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net><D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC><50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net><3E67BEA3D9E343528EBF2C7A6CC86529@RobinLaptopPC>
	<A32B0029-1B74-44B5-8C64-2FD6C066CBC2@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <0E785877B4E542C7B930BD43E25FA13D@RobinLaptopPC>

> I think that's the reason Maurer used "jargon" in "language of the 
> underworld" if I recall correctly. I like the term cant tho and will 
> plead archaism happily in trying to revive the term.

Thanks for the tip -- I've ordered _You Can't Win_, but Maurer is going to 
have to wait till I get to a library, given the price.  It's possible that 
he used "jargon", as this is (with "argot") the French term. Alice Becker-Ho 
(the widow of Guy Debord) entitles her book on the influence of Romany on 
cant throughout Europe and elsewhere,  _Les princes du jargon_.

    SNIP

> I think there may be a tradition of "gallow's laments" that's worth 
> pursuing although again I'm well outside an area of even autodidactic 
> knowledge on this point.

This would go back to at least "Johnny Armstrong's Last Goodnight", written 
maybe not that long after he was hanged by whichever James of Scotland was 
running the place in 1530.  And they crop up from I think the 17thC in 
English broadsides.  But Jack Sheppard's farewell is, I think, the first in 
cant, and influences the later "The Night Before Larry Was Stretched", the 
one which is always noticed.  Somewhere there's a reference to Larry being 
"sung to the tune of the hundreds of Drury," the first line of the Sheppard 
ballad.

(Though Larry raises yet *another issue, which possibly links to black 
American speech.  "De nite afore Larry was stretched / De boys dey all paid 
him a visit ..."  Deeply strange, and part of the pattern of all six of the 
Newgate-style ballads being sung in Dublin in the 1790s.  But nowhere else, 
as far as I can make out, is this particular way of transcribing Dublin 
speech of the time to be found.)

[Vidocq]

> At the same time, again, I'm not sure the master of crime is ALL that 
> reliable of a source. There's enough boasting and wild happenstance in 
> his autobiography to make one question just how much of his "criminal 
> background" is exaggeration. At least for me. Maybe scholars on the  field 
> have a different view, but I've always looked at Vidocq with  narrowed 
> eyes.

Oh agreed, I'm not sure just how far I'd trust Vidocq, even in the early 
books that he didn't disavow.  But regardless, Hugo and Balzac took him, if 
not at face value, at least as a source.  And he gets translated into 
English less than a year after the Memoirs come out in French, in 1829. 
Whereupon Doctor William Maginn tangentially gets into the act.

> At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by 
> magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a  short 
> section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's  "The 
> Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one  of the 
> few early sources on performance magic.

Hm ... I'd better have a look at that.  _The Art of Juggling or 
Legerdemaine_ (1612), possibly by Samuel Rowlands, I think deals with the 
overlap between card sharps and tricksters generally.

Robin 


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 11 05:40:00 2009
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri Sep 11 03:48:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
In-Reply-To: <0E785877B4E542C7B930BD43E25FA13D@RobinLaptopPC>
References: <c06.5f307d38.37d8395d@cs.com><5FE934D20EA846EFB2CCAFE4CE8BEBF0@RobinLaptopPC><E1MlPFr-0004pz-1J@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net><531C15F9-A42B-47F0-AA38-4702E5A9D98C@myuw.net><3C28896E787E47E0861EA45A9A03D6DD@RobinLaptopPC><7552D753904A4897ADE272BC0A41EE10@RobinLaptopPC><B02C1C7F-1040-4346-AF17-1D9C2A979A3B@myuw.net><D18998C7DC874281ADB0BB9EAAC46EC0@RobinLaptopPC><50F969E5-4909-4416-893E-6B4F5A78060F@myuw.net><3E67BEA3D9E343528EBF2C7A6CC86529@RobinLaptopPC><A32B0029-1B74-44B5-8C64-2FD6C066CBC2@myuw.net>
	<0E785877B4E542C7B930BD43E25FA13D@RobinLaptopPC>
Message-ID: <FEE785CAAE48411F914D866F43702A40@RobinLaptopPC>

Jason:

>> At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by 
>> magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a 
>> short section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's 
>> "The Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one 
>> of the few early sources on performance magic.
>
> Hm ... I'd better have a look at that.  _The Art of Juggling or 
> Legerdemaine_ (1612), possibly by Samuel Rowlands, I think deals with the 
> overlap between card sharps and tricksters generally.
>
> Robin

This has been tickling my brain since you mentioned it, as I thought there 
might be a connection.  There is.  Turns out Samuel Rid (not Rowlands) 
lifted most of his material in _The Art of Juggling_ from Reginald Scot. 
This is pointed out in Arthur F. Kinney's, _Rogues, Vagabonds, & sturdy 
beggars_ which reprints the Rid text: "[Scot] was copied word-for-word into 
much of this pamphlet." (p. 263).

        http://books.google.com/books?id=uRrXGUXmNm8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=rogues,+vagabonds+and+sturdy+beggars&lr=&ei=dBiqSt7WHZKUyQTWiJWKCg#v=onepage&q=rid&f=false

Bloody typical!

Robin



From hudson.jade at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 07:15:25 2009
From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson)
Date: Fri Sep 11 05:22:52 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toxic Call for Submissions
Message-ID: <943e8fc0909110415p602221c1ua0deb33bee893570@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Poets,
This is the first call for submissions to ToxicPoetry.com's second
exhibition. We are a newly established,  independent press for experimental,
international mp3 poetry. If you would like to submit, check our site for
instructions: http://site.toxicpoetry.com/Submissions.php Additionally, you
might want to check out our last exhibition. Here's a link:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/bc2498b9#/bc2498b9/1

We hope that those seeking publication for their experimental mp3 poetry
will considers us.

Happy Submissions.

Best,

Jade Hudson

ToxicPoetry Co-editor & Webmaster



Nathan Kinsman

ToxicPoetry Co-editor
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 11:16:37 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 09:24:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Korean French Connection
Message-ID: <8CC0109FDC774A4-9910-ADC5@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2009/09/135_51667.html



French poet and critic Claude Mouchard did not recognize Korean literature until some Korean students in his class at Paris VIII University showed him a poem translated in French in 1997. 



Mouchard introduced the work, ``The Tomb at the Top'' by Cho Chong-kwon, in the 80th issue of the literary quarterly ``Po&sie'' (from the word ``poesie'' which means poetry in French), where he works as an editor. 



His journal featured the poetry of 12 Korean poets in the 1999 summer edition titled ``Poesie sud-coreens.'' It was the first time for the journal to exclusively focus on one country's poetry in depth.

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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 15:17:24 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 13:25:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn 
Message-ID: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>


http://flavorwire.com/38001/exclusive-qa-amber-tamblyn-talks-poetry-and-her-new-book-bang-ditto

Exclusive Q&A: Amber Tamblyn Talks Poetry and Her New Book, Bang Ditto 
11:14 am Thursday Sep 10, 2009 
by Shana Nys Dambrot 



?Amber Tamblyn was raised by beatniks and bohemians, which might explain why the TV and film star insists on spending her free time buried in books. From her earliest published poems and stories, it was clear that she takes the power of words seriously, crafting poetry and prose that is dramatic, emotionally raw, and always clich?-free. This week, she celebrates not only the launch of her much-anticipated new volume, Bang Ditto, but also the anticipated theatrical release of her new film, a remake of the classic Fritz Lang thriller 



Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, in which she lays down the law to Michael Douglas and Jesse Metcalfe. Flavorpill?s Shana Nys Dambrot caught up with her between hats to ask all about it. 


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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 15:43:54 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 13:51:25 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bay Area poet recordings
Message-ID: <8CC012F5494C75A-5E8-1EF87@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>


A Voice Box

http://andrewkenower.typepad.com/a_voice_box/
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 17:43:35 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 15:51:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] solved by substitution of terms
Message-ID: <8CC01400C78DA76-3FA8-2FEE2@webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com>


"The essential feature of mathematical creativity is the exploration, under the pressure of powerful implosive forces, of difficult problems for whose validity and importance the explorer is eventually held bound by. The reality is the physical world."

? Alfred W. Adler, ?Reflections: Mathematics and Creativity?, New Yorker (1972)



The essential feature of poetic creativity is the exploration, without pressure of powerful implosive forces, of difficult problems from whose validity and importance the explorer is eventually released. The reality is the physical world.



Finnegan

(from my blog post du jour)
http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
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From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 11 18:09:12 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Fri Sep 11 16:16:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn 
In-Reply-To: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FD92FA97-5AEA-46D3-97B9-B1FFCEB580A4@myuw.net>

good lord she's terrible tho. and she's plagiarized slam poets by  
doing un credited covers at readings.

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:17 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:

>
> http://flavorwire.com/38001/exclusive-qa-amber-tamblyn-talks-poetry-and-her-new-book-bang-ditto
>
> Exclusive Q&A: Amber Tamblyn Talks Poetry and Her New Book, Bang Ditto
> 11:14 am Thursday Sep 10, 2009
> by Shana Nys Dambrot
>
>
>
>  Amber Tamblyn was raised by beatniks and bohemians, which might  
> explain why the TV and film star insists on spending her free time  
> buried in books. From her earliest published poems and stories, it  
> was clear that she takes the power of words seriously, crafting  
> poetry and prose that is dramatic, emotionally raw, and always  
> clich?-free. This week, she celebrates not only the launch of her  
> much-anticipated new volume, Bang Ditto, but also the anticipated  
> theatrical release of her new film, a remake of the classic Fritz  
> Lang thriller
>
>
>
> Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, in which she lays down the law to Michael  
> Douglas and Jesse Metcalfe. Flavorpill?s Shana Nys Dambrot caught up  
> with her between hats to ask all about it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 18:43:43 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 16:51:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn 
In-Reply-To: <FD92FA97-5AEA-46D3-97B9-B1FFCEB580A4@myuw.net>
References: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>
	<FD92FA97-5AEA-46D3-97B9-B1FFCEB580A4@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <8CC014872D67EFD-1BBC-2FA11@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>


This piece was the first I've heard of her as poet or actor. 



But, hey, what about Eliot's assertion that 'immature poets borrow

and?mature poets steal'? & isn't 'sampling' a staple of hip-hop and house d-jays?

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 6:09 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn 



good lord she's terrible tho. and she's plagiarized slam poets by doing un credited covers at readings.?
?
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:17 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:?
?
>?
> http://flavorwire.com/38001/exclusive-qa-amber-tamblyn-talks-poetry-and-her-new-book-bang-ditto?
>?
> Exclusive Q&A: Amber Tamblyn Talks Poetry and Her New Book, Bang Ditto?
> 11:14 am Thursday Sep 10, 2009?
> by Shana Nys Dambrot?
>?
>?
>?
> Amber Tamblyn was raised by beatniks and bohemians, which might > explain why the TV and film star insists on spending her free time > buried in books. From her earliest published poems and stories, it > was clear that she takes the power of words seriously, crafting > poetry and prose that is dramatic, emotionally raw, and always > clich?-free. This week, she celebrates not only the launch of her > much-anticipated new volume, Bang Ditto, but also the anticipated > theatrical release of her new film, a remake of the classic Fritz > Lang thriller?
>?
>?
>?
> Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, in which she lays down the law to Michael > Douglas and Jesse Me
tcalfe. Flavorpill?s Shana Nys Dambrot caught up > with her between hats to ask all about it.?
>?
>?
> _______________________________________________?
> New-Poetry mailing list?
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?

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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 18:56:14 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Fri Sep 11 17:03:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn
In-Reply-To: <8CC014872D67EFD-1BBC-2FA11@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>
	<FD92FA97-5AEA-46D3-97B9-B1FFCEB580A4@myuw.net>
	<8CC014872D67EFD-1BBC-2FA11@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909111556v3278f77fm358758a355d7cd9d@mail.gmail.com>

Amber Tamblyn is a different case.  She's no Wynona Ryder or Jewel, even.
 Her parents are child actors turned regular actors.  Beatniks and
bohemians?  Well, in Santa Monica in the 50s and 60s, sure her parents may
have met some or partied with them so often they became confused between
inviting their agent to the kids' school recitals and putting them to work
and -- art.

-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 19:19:14 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 11 17:26:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] outtakes from Don Paterson over at plumbline
Message-ID: <8CC014D69296AB5-1DD8-19871@webmail-d094.sysops.aol.com>

http://theplumblineschool.blogspot.com/2009/09/more-on-readers-role.html
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From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 11 20:08:40 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Fri Sep 11 18:16:05 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn 
In-Reply-To: <8CC014872D67EFD-1BBC-2FA11@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC012BA0DE373A-5E8-1E923@webmail-d045.sysops.aol.com>
	<FD92FA97-5AEA-46D3-97B9-B1FFCEB580A4@myuw.net>
	<8CC014872D67EFD-1BBC-2FA11@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DCC25E4-20E5-4338-BEF5-8B6AD3AAA84F@myuw.net>

yeah, but if you get on stage and read a poem that you claim you wrote  
that is word for word somebody elses, that's not using someone else's  
material as grist for your own mill, it's just being a douchebag.

I actually wrote a poem for ms. tamblyn at one point as a joke between  
my friend Rachel McKibbens (who is my source for the plagiarism claim,  
incidentally) and I.

Here it is:

Household Activity No. 36

for Amber Tamblyn



On disc two or three on DVD so no commercials compete her complete

here the sixth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer



Here come the place where the pause button allows spent hours

come to contemplate to the hips of young



Amber Tamblyn plays "janice" who come on shows so much skin in this

episode comes really its sort of remarkable how far





television comes. She's this bad book of poems and with the come on line

"I mean, our kind of sex makes animals fuck like it's humanistic!"[sic]



come. sit in the dark.

watch more.






On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:43 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:

>
> This piece was the first I've heard of her as poet or actor.
>
>
>
> But, hey, what about Eliot's assertion that 'immature poets borrow
>
> and mature poets steal'? & isn't 'sampling' a staple of hip-hop and  
> house d-jays?
>
> Finnegan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
> Sent: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 6:09 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Q & A with Amber Tamblyn
>
>
>
> good lord she's terrible tho. and she's plagiarized slam poets by  
> doing un credited covers at readings.
>
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:17 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> http://flavorwire.com/38001/exclusive-qa-amber-tamblyn-talks-poetry-and-her-new-book-bang-ditto
>>
>> Exclusive Q&A: Amber Tamblyn Talks Poetry and Her New Book, Bang  
>> Ditto
>> 11:14 am Thursday Sep 10, 2009
>> by Shana Nys Dambrot
>>
>>
>>
>> Amber Tamblyn was raised by beatniks and bohemians, which might >  
>> explain why the TV and film star insists on spending her free time  
>> > buried in books. From her earliest published poems and stories,  
>> it > was clear that she takes the power of words seriously,  
>> crafting > poetry and prose that is dramatic, emotionally raw, and  
>> always > clich?-free. This week, she celebrates not only the launch  
>> of her > much-anticipated new volume, Bang Ditto, but also the  
>> anticipated > theatrical release of her new film, a remake of the  
>> classic Fritz > Lang thriller
>>
>>
>>
>> Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, in which she lays down the law to  
>> Michael > Douglas and Jesse Me
> tcalfe. Flavorpill?s Shana Nys Dambrot caught up > with her between  
> hats to ask all about it.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 07:54:51 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep 13 06:01:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] EOAGH Issue 5: Launch Events & Readings]
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909130454v6f72a85vb174a9c8cd890ecd@mail.gmail.com>

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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 13 12:07:07 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun Sep 13 10:14:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] A tonna music, poetry, et al - Tonight.
Message-ID: <365897.92010.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Dear NYC+ friends and poets,

This is a little poetry drive. Please do read on. In lieu of a?September reading, the Stain of Poetry (Amy King + me) are blowing our?wind in the sails of an extraordinary benefit, to take place on Sunday,?September 13th @ The Living Room NYC. Amy joins Michael Tyrell and a?slew of musicians & bands for a night of revelry, all for the cost of?a cheap concert ticket ($15). Find out more about the event here?(where you can also buy tickets):
http://foggedclarity.com/2009/07/the-living-room/

or here:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=143766517563&ref=mf

and give some of the bands a listen:
Strand of Oaks --?http://www.myspace.com/strandofoaks
Judson Claiborne- -?http://www.myspace.com/judsonclaiborne
Samantha Farrell --?http://www.myspace.com/samanthafarrell
Karisa Wilson --?http://www.myspace.com/wilsonkarisa
Amir Darzi --?http://www.myspace.com/amirdarzi

You'll be supporting the print edition of Fogged Clarity & having a?dazzling time -- we've been to one of these evenings, and they move,?rock, sway & shine unlike anything we've witnessed. Come with us! And?let me know if you have any questions.

xo,

Ana & Amy

--
Amy's Alias
http://amyking.org/


      
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 16:44:10 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Sun Sep 13 14:51:11 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] LA: xeroxes of poemmat in show...
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909131344r4861bb9chdba0c6f14dfdbba3@mail.gmail.com>

eros/thanatos Curated by tricia lawless murray
marc adelman, stephanie allespach, victor cobo, anne colvin, catherine daly,
amber fox, phyllis green, jason hanasik, evah hart, micol hebron, elise
irving, zsolt kadar, tricia lawless murray, leigh mccarthy, christopher
picon, nancy popp, jessica rosen, amy sampson, david sotelo, felis stella,
casey stroud and the museum of viral memory
Date: Friday, September 25, 2009 Reception: September 25, 7 - 9 PM P?ST 1904
E 7th Place LA CA 90021 213-488-1280 new@post-la.com
-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Sep 13 19:04:45 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Sun Sep 13 17:11:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
Message-ID: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>


http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/jim-carroll-poet-and-punk-rocker-is-dead/
Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead

By The New York Times


Jim Carroll, the poet and punk rocker in the outlaw tradition of Rimbaud and Burroughs who chronicled his wild youth in ?The Basketball Diaries,? died Friday at his home in Manhattan. He was 60.


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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep 13 20:20:37 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun Sep 13 18:27:43 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8DA82E56-BE8C-4AA3-8483-132D4F05D669@myuw.net>

damn. he was important.

On Sep 13, 2009, at 4:04 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:

>
> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/jim-carroll-poet-and-punk-rocker-is-dead/
> Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
>
> By The New York Times
>
>
> Jim Carroll, the poet and punk rocker in the outlaw tradition of  
> Rimbaud and Burroughs who chronicled his wild youth in ?The  
> Basketball Diaries,? died Friday at his home in Manhattan. He was 60.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 20:43:27 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun Sep 13 18:50:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <8DA82E56-BE8C-4AA3-8483-132D4F05D669@myuw.net>
References: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
	<8DA82E56-BE8C-4AA3-8483-132D4F05D669@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909131743i2a0fbbe9m3e66ceffdd813273@mail.gmail.com>

I hate to hear about Jim Carroll.  He was really important to me in my early
20s.  I think that his poetry is better than many poets and critics
suspect.  I'll have to dig up my copy of *Fear of Dreaming*.  His book *Void
of Course* has a wonderful sequence of poems about Kurt Cobain.

He's easy to make fun of:  we could all smugly shoot down *The Basketball
Diaries*, I'm certain.  We could probably all post a random poem and throw
darts at it.  We could dismiss him as so many have.  But, he was one of us,
one of our tribe, a person trying to cobble together a life from words.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

> damn. he was important.
>
>
> On Sep 13, 2009, at 4:04 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>
>> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/jim-carroll-poet-and-punk-rocker-is-dead/
>> Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
>>
>> By The New York Times
>>
>>
>> Jim Carroll, the poet and punk rocker in the outlaw tradition of Rimbaud
>> and Burroughs who chronicled his wild youth in ?The Basketball Diaries,?
>> died Friday at his home in Manhattan. He was 60.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun Sep 13 20:52:18 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Sun Sep 13 18:59:26 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
Message-ID: <cc4.583b4295.37deedc2@aol.com>

I really liked Basketball Diaries and the other book of diary entries  
Forced Entries. His album Catholic Boy is a classic. I've read only bits and  
pieces of his poetry, which struck me as being a lot more controlled than many 
 of his New York contemporaries. I imagine there will be a resurgence of 
interest  in his work for a while. In recent years he spoke of working on two 
novels. I'm  sad those won't see the light of day.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep 13 21:01:14 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun Sep 13 19:08:21 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0909131743i2a0fbbe9m3e66ceffdd813273@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
	<8DA82E56-BE8C-4AA3-8483-132D4F05D669@myuw.net>
	<731bb17a0909131743i2a0fbbe9m3e66ceffdd813273@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <36F5E641-37ED-4605-99EE-01DFBD6A4D5E@myuw.net>

I am forever in debt to Jim Carroll because I discovered Ted Berrigan  
and Anne Waldman by reading Forced Entries. Al is right, his poetry is  
much better than he's generally given credit for and he was an  
important exemplar of a certain kind of poet.

On Sep 13, 2009, at 5:43 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> I hate to hear about Jim Carroll.  He was really important to me in  
> my early
> 20s.  I think that his poetry is better than many poets and critics
> suspect.  I'll have to dig up my copy of *Fear of Dreaming*.  His  
> book *Void
> of Course* has a wonderful sequence of poems about Kurt Cobain.
>
> He's easy to make fun of:  we could all smugly shoot down *The  
> Basketball
> Diaries*, I'm certain.  We could probably all post a random poem and  
> throw
> darts at it.  We could dismiss him as so many have.  But, he was one  
> of us,
> one of our tribe, a person trying to cobble together a life from  
> words.
>
> Best,
> Jeff Newberry
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> damn. he was important.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2009, at 4:04 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/jim-carroll-poet-and-punk-rocker-is-dead/
>>> Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
>>>
>>> By The New York Times
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim Carroll, the poet and punk rocker in the outlaw tradition of  
>>> Rimbaud
>>> and Burroughs who chronicled his wild youth in ?The Basketball  
>>> Diaries,?
>>> died Friday at his home in Manhattan. He was 60.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables;  
> and that
> is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and  
> peculiar
> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Sun Sep 13 21:04:41 2009
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Sun Sep 13 19:11:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0909131743i2a0fbbe9m3e66ceffdd813273@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CC02DDB87C8C49-39EC-445AB@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
	<8DA82E56-BE8C-4AA3-8483-132D4F05D669@myuw.net>
	<731bb17a0909131743i2a0fbbe9m3e66ceffdd813273@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5f20e8dc11f335.4aad5e69@mail.nyu.edu>

Jeff, 

Well said. 

Many thanks!



----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> I hate to hear about Jim Carroll.  He was really important to me in my 
> early
> 20s.  I think that his poetry is better than many poets and critics
> suspect.  I'll have to dig up my copy of *Fear of Dreaming*.  His book 
> *Void
> of Course* has a wonderful sequence of poems about Kurt Cobain.
> 
> He's easy to make fun of:  we could all smugly shoot down *The Basketball
> Diaries*, I'm certain.  We could probably all post a random poem and throw
> darts at it.  We could dismiss him as so many have.  But, he was one 
> of us,
> one of our tribe, a person trying to cobble together a life from words.
> 
> Best,
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
> 
> > damn. he was important.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 13, 2009, at 4:04 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/jim-carroll-poet-and-punk-rocker-is-dead/
> >> Jim Carroll, Poet and Punk Rocker, Is Dead
> >>
> >> By The New York Times
> >>
> >>
> >> Jim Carroll, the poet and punk rocker in the outlaw tradition of Rimbaud
> >> and Burroughs who chronicled his wild youth in ?The Basketball Diaries,?
> >> died Friday at his home in Manhattan. He was 60.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; 
> and that
> is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 00:10:50 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Sun Sep 13 22:17:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] LA: xeroxes of poemmat in show...
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909131344r4861bb9chdba0c6f14dfdbba3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3cd389f0909131344r4861bb9chdba0c6f14dfdbba3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909132110v149cbc67v5df199847a44e722@mail.gmail.com>

Break a leg, Catherine!  Let us know how it goes.
Best,

Judy also midwestern-raised

2009/9/13 Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com>

> eros/thanatos Curated by tricia lawless murray
> marc adelman, stephanie allespach, victor cobo, anne colvin, catherine
> daly, amber fox, phyllis green, jason hanasik, evah hart, micol hebron,
> elise irving, zsolt kadar, tricia lawless murray, leigh mccarthy,
> christopher picon, nancy popp, jessica rosen, amy sampson, david sotelo,
> felis stella, casey stroud and the museum of viral memory
> Date: Friday, September 25, 2009 Reception: September 25, 7 - 9 PM P?ST
> 1904 E 7th Place LA CA 90021 213-488-1280 new@post-la.com
> --
> All best,
> Catherine Daly
> c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:02:21 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon Sep 14 09:09:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall 2009 issue of The Salt River Review is now online
Message-ID: <648208b60909140802o45309090k4162dab569de25a5@mail.gmail.com>

The Fall 2009 issue of The Salt River Review is now online.

Poetry by Carmen Firan, James A.Hawley, John Morgan, Alex Cigale, Greg
Simon, Allan Peterson, Derek Henderson, Barry Spacks, H. Palmer Hall, Lynn
Lifshin, Tad Richards, David Graham, Flavia Cosma, Charles Springer, &
Taylor Graham.

Fiction by Jack Boyle, Jane Lazarre, Tim Poland, Paul Silverman, & Douglas
Walker.

Belles Lettres: Wherein prose poems, nonfiction, essays, and other writings
are found: Laura Jensen,"1970 - Summer - Tacking"; Greg Simon, "Fernando
Pessoa: The Art of X = 72."

The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:19:01 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Mon Sep 14 09:25:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Queen of Song
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909140819q51e29b2dxea7d5696cb4caf15@mail.gmail.com>

If I could write a poem this emotionally evocative, oh my.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/audio/2009/sep/14/susan-boyle-wild-horses

Best,

Judy
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From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:40:02 2009
From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince)
Date: Mon Sep 14 09:46:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall 2009 issue of The Salt River Review is now 
	online
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909140802o45309090k4162dab569de25a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <648208b60909140802o45309090k4162dab569de25a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7db1d01b0909140840y608da8abwf5c5ec6a789d296c@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, James.  Some lovely killers here from some of Our Boys---
David Graham:

"jukeboxes trying too hard, like little brothers in the batter's box."

Tad Richards:

"Sookie's speed rock brand of half knowledge."

Barry SPX:

"as the big pomposo clouds roll in, as fruit trees yield like affable uncles
and Eleanora unbuttons her shirt."  [v e r r r y    s e n s u a l   poem]

Nice work, all!

Judy

2009/9/14 James Cervantes <cervantes.james@gmail.com>

>
> The Fall 2009 issue of The Salt River Review is now online.
>
> Poetry by Carmen Firan, James A.Hawley, John Morgan, Alex Cigale, Greg
> Simon, Allan Peterson, Derek Henderson, Barry Spacks, H. Palmer Hall, Lynn
> Lifshin, Tad Richards, David Graham, Flavia Cosma, Charles Springer, &
> Taylor Graham.
>
> Fiction by Jack Boyle, Jane Lazarre, Tim Poland, Paul Silverman, & Douglas
> Walker.
>
> Belles Lettres: Wherein prose poems, nonfiction, essays, and other writings
> are found: Laura Jensen,"1970 - Summer - Tacking"; Greg Simon, "Fernando
> Pessoa: The Art of X = 72."
>
> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:59:29 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon Sep 14 10:06:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
Message-ID: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>

http://finwake.com/

Hal

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it
for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
is not boring at all."
                               ~John Cage

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 14 12:19:20 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon Sep 14 10:26:14 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] BUFFALO NY---S M A L L P R E S S in the A R C H I V E
	Talk TUESDAY 9/15
Message-ID: <574023.41652.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



Please join us this Tuesday, September 15th @3:30 p.m. for a talk by?Elizabeth Bonapfel:

"Form in Fragments:? Voice,?Apostrophe, and?Punctuation?in?James
Joyce's *Finnegans?Wake?*Small Press Editions"

This talk will be held in?The Poetry Collection, 420 Capen. This event is?free and open to the public.


********

Small Press in the Archive Lecture Series dedicates itself to the
study of poetry outside the traditional literary historical plot. The?lectures in this series draw on materials in The Poetry Collection, at?SUNY Buffalo?in order to explore community/discourse formations, the?status of ephemera and the making of genre, the conditions of literary?production, transatlantic cross-pollinations in and between specific?magazines, the careers of poets, the role of book art, and how the?little magazine functions in the making of the avant-garde.
_______




Amy's Alias

http://amyking.org/


      
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 12:54:45 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep 14 11:01:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paper Kite Press
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909140954t1f05129fwf07040bbaa90b897@mail.gmail.com>

http://wordpainting.com/shop.shtml

among other interesting books and soon to appear:

poem, home: An Anthology of Ars Poetica
PRE-ORDER FOR NOVEMBER 2009 RELEASE

The title says it all. Includes poems by: Kelli Russell Agodon, Flor
Aguilera, Karren L. Alenier, Sandra Alland, C. J. Allen, Ivan Arguelles,
Anny Ballardini, Gary Barwin, Annette Basalyga, Rick Benjamin, John M.
Bennett, Maxianne Berger, F .J. Bergmann, Cliff Bernier, Gregory Betts,
Celia Bland, Dean Blehert, Helen Boettcher, Peter Boyle, Allen Braden,
Therese L. Broderick, Mary Buchinger, Ana Buigues, Mike Burwell, Mair?ad
Byrne, Nick Carb?, Cathy Carlisi, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, James Cervantes,
Joel Chace, Ellen Cole, Ed Coletti, Jennifer Compton, Anne Coray, Del Ray
Cross, Craig Czury, Yoko Danno, Lucille Lang Day, Denise Duhamel, Patrick
Dunagan, Riccardo Duranti, Paul Dutton, Susanne Dyckman, Lynnell Edwards,
Dan Featherston, Annie Finch, Thomas Fink, Alan Halsey, Sharon Harris, Lola
Haskins, Nellie Hill, Nathan Hoks, Paul Hoover, Mikhail Horowitz, Ray Hsu,
Halvard Johnson, Jill Jones, Adrianne Kalfopoulou, Bhanu Kapil, W. B.
Keckler, Karl Kempton, Kit Kennedy, Tracy Koretsky, Greg Kosmicki, Gary
Leising, Amy Lemmon, Lyn Lifshin, Diane Lockward, Rupert Mallin, Dr. Pamela
McClure, Dr. D. H. Melhem, Hillary Mellon, Paul Mitchell, Carley Moore,
Daniel Thomas Moran, Maggie Morley, Richard Newman, Angela O'Donnell, Shin
Yu Pai, Helen Pavlin, Jonathan Penton, Alice Pero, Patrick Phillips, Paul
Pines, Kevin Prufer, Chelsea Rathburn, Susan Rich, Cynthia Ris, Kim Roberts,
Jay Rogoff, Kate Schapira, Barry Schwabsky, Derek Sheffield, Shoshauna Shy,
Sue Stanford, Lucien Suel, Rod Summers, Eileen Tabios, Elaine Terranova,
Heather Thomas, David Tipton, Juanita Torrence-Thompson, William Trowbridge,
Priscilla Uppal, Katherine Varnes, Jeanne Wagner, Amy Watkins, Scott Watson,
Melissa Weinstein, Carol Clark Williams, Jacquie Williams, Ernie Wormwood,
Mark Young, and Andrena Zawinski.

Edited by Jennifer Hill and Dan Waber

230 pages, $23 (includes shipping)


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep 14 13:40:29 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep 14 11:47:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>

Footnotes aren't super-helpful.

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> http://finwake.com/
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 13:45:25 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon Sep 14 12:00:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>

Helpful will do.

Hal

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it
for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
is not boring at all."
                               ~John Cage

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:

> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
>> http://finwake.com/
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>> is not boring at all."
>>                               ~John Cage
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 14:07:01 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep 14 12:13:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>

I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only eternity to
explain it all...

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com> wrote:

> Helpful will do.
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:
>
>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>
>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>
>>> Hal
>>>
>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>> is not boring at all."
>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>
>>> Halvard Johnson
>>> ================
>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Tad Richards
>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>
>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 16:15:47 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon Sep 14 14:22:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>

But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use them to
try to overcome the boredom?
- Jim

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com
> wrote:

> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only eternity
> to explain it all...
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Helpful will do.
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>> is not boring at all."
>>                                ~John Cage
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard@gmail.com
>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>wrote:
>>
>>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>>
>>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>>
>>>> Hal
>>>>
>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>>
>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>> ================
>>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tad Richards
>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>>
>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 16:32:48 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon Sep 14 14:39:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>

I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.

Hal

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it
for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
is not boring at all."
                               ~John Cage

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes
<cervantes.james@gmail.com>wrote:

> But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use them to
> try to overcome the boredom?
> - Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
>> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only eternity
>> to explain it all...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Helpful will do.
>>>
>>> Hal
>>>
>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>> is not boring at all."
>>>                                ~John Cage
>>>
>>> Halvard Johnson
>>> ================
>>> halvard@gmail.com
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Hal
>>>>>
>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>>>
>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>> ================
>>>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tad Richards
>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>>>
>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 16:42:09 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon Sep 14 14:49:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>

Hal, you ARE a hypothetical.
- Surely,Jim

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes <
> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use them to
>> try to overcome the boredom?
>> - Jim
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
>>> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only eternity
>>> to explain it all...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Helpful will do.
>>>>
>>>> Hal
>>>>
>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>                                ~John Cage
>>>>
>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>> ================
>>>> halvard@gmail.com
>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>>> ================
>>>>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tad Richards
>>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 16:58:55 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon Sep 14 15:05:49 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>

That's with a capital H, hombre.
Hal

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it
for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
is not boring at all."
                               ~John Cage

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org





On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Cervantes
<cervantes.james@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hal, you ARE a hypothetical.
> - Surely,Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>> is not boring at all."
>>                                ~John Cage
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard@gmail.com
>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes <
>> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use them
>>> to try to overcome the boredom?
>>> - Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
>>>> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only
>>>> eternity to explain it all...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Helpful will do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hal
>>>>>
>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>                                ~John Cage
>>>>>
>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>> ================
>>>>> halvard@gmail.com
>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>>>> ================
>>>>>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tad Richards
>>>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>>>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>> star!
>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>> Giovenale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 14 17:03:37 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon Sep 14 15:10:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7EE54F2-38BE-4AB9-9F57-7427FF206E66@ripon.edu>

I've actually seen in the flesh a person reputed to be Hal Johnson,  
and he seemed quite thetical to me.  Nothing hypo about him.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:

> That's with a capital H, hombre.
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Cervantes <cervantes.james@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> Hal, you ARE a hypothetical.
>
> - Surely,Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.
>
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes <cervantes.james@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use  
> them to try to overcome the boredom?
>
> - Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only  
> eternity to explain it all...
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Helpful will do.
>
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>  
> wrote:
> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> http://finwake.com/
>
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                               ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 17:58:43 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon Sep 14 16:05:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <B7EE54F2-38BE-4AB9-9F57-7427FF206E66@ripon.edu>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B7EE54F2-38BE-4AB9-9F57-7427FF206E66@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <648208b60909141458y5fc664eaw89436209bec813f9@mail.gmail.com>

Guess we're talking about two different people.  But then we always are,
right?
- Jim

p.s.- For example, Hal waxes and wanes.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:03 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:

> I've actually seen in the flesh a person reputed to be Hal Johnson, and he
> seemed quite thetical to me.  Nothing hypo about him.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
> That's with a capital H, hombre.
> Hal
>
> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
> is not boring at all."
>                                ~John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard@gmail.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Cervantes <
> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hal, you ARE a hypothetical.
>> - Surely,Jim
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.
>>>
>>> Hal
>>>
>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>> is not boring at all."
>>>                                ~John Cage
>>>
>>> Halvard Johnson
>>> ================
>>> halvard@gmail.com
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes <
>>> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.  Would you use them
>>>> to try to overcome the boredom?
>>>> - Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>>>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
>>>>> and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his notes, had I only
>>>>> eternity to explain it all...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Helpful will do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>>                                ~John Cage
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>>> ================
>>>>>> halvard@gmail.com
>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://finwake.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>>>>>>> for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>>>>>>> Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>>>>>>> is not boring at all."
>>>>>>>>                               ~John Cage
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>>>>> ================
>>>>>>>> halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Tad Richards
>>>>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
>>>>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>>>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>>> star!
>>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>>> Giovenale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 14 18:39:23 2009
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon Sep 14 16:45:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909141458y5fc664eaw89436209bec813f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>
	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B7EE54F2-38BE-4AB9-9F57-7427FF206E66@ripon.edu>
	<648208b60909141458y5fc664eaw89436209bec813f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <661064D8-9C5F-4612-8667-716CFDFFD5E2@ripon.edu>


Guess we're talking about two different people.  But then we always are,
right?
- Jim

p.s.- For example, Hal waxes and wanes.
==============

And I myself have been known to flow and ebb.

David Graham
Grahamd@Ripon.edu
------------------------
Home page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz


From skip at louisiana.edu  Mon Sep 14 20:01:32 2009
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon Sep 14 18:08:28 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F620FBE63BAC4B65BDA1B55DB46E0679@win.louisiana.edu>

I appreciate Cage's configuration, but it sounds a lot like the recipe for
"quiet desperation" too many of our kinsmen have followed too well. (Kinsmen
being those born in modest circumstances during the past two centuries.)

 

(And now with "the tedium is the message" of Goldsmith, or the sleep-a-thon
movie of Warhol . . . it seems the arts have followed the weary foot down
the line.)

 

By the way, Cage on Pandora.com is quiet interesting.

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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep 14 20:07:04 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep 14 18:13:52 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] From my inbox: re FsW
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909141458y5fc664eaw89436209bec813f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210909140859x1fed7f35wc3ab06e67012ade3@mail.gmail.com>	<4AAE800D.8030607@opus40.org>	<f160a1210909141045w10c52053qeb27756d59e82e7c@mail.gmail.com>	<4b65c2d70909141107p36ba181bgfee71b83a5b2d879@mail.gmail.com>	<648208b60909141315s7d63ad49w74bc6a890dd912d8@mail.gmail.com>	<f160a1210909141332n7e13fee6h8eba3b8ea0c149aa@mail.gmail.com>	<648208b60909141342s47373241kf13804a036dfbe56@mail.gmail.com>	<f160a1210909141358q38687ab3s6b5542c055e2cce5@mail.gmail.com>	<B7EE54F2-38BE-4AB9-9F57-7427FF206E66@ripon.edu>
	<648208b60909141458y5fc664eaw89436209bec813f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEDAA8.4070705@opus40.org>

I believe he's antithetical.

James Cervantes wrote:
> Guess we're talking about two different people.  But then we always 
> are, right?
>
> - Jim
>
> p.s.- For example, Hal waxes and wanes.
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:03 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu 
> <mailto:grahamd@ripon.edu>> wrote:
>
>     I've actually seen in the flesh a person reputed to be Hal
>     Johnson, and he seemed quite thetical to me.  Nothing hypo about him.
>
>
>
>
>     ========================================
>     David Graham
>     grahamd@ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd@ripon.edu>
>
>     Home Page:
>     http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
>     Poetry Library:
>     http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>     ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>     On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
>>     That's with a capital H, hombre.
>>
>>     Hal
>>
>>     "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>     for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>     Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>     is not boring at all."
>>                                    ~John Cage
>>
>>     Halvard Johnson
>>     ================
>>     halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>     http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>     http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>     http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>     http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Cervantes
>>     <cervantes.james@gmail.com <mailto:cervantes.james@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hal, you ARE a hypothetical.
>>
>>         - Surely,Jim
>>
>>
>>         On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Halvard Johnson
>>         <halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I don't do no end o' life hypotheticals.
>>
>>
>>             Hal
>>
>>             "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>             for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen.
>>             Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>             is not boring at all."
>>                                            ~John Cage
>>
>>             Halvard Johnson
>>             ================
>>             halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>             http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>             http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>             http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>             http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Cervantes
>>             <cervantes.james@gmail.com
>>             <mailto:cervantes.james@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                 But,let's say you have only 8 minutes left to live.
>>                  Would you use them to try to overcome the boredom?
>>
>>                 - Jim
>>
>>
>>                 On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Anny Ballardini
>>                 <anny.ballardini@gmail.com
>>                 <mailto:anny.ballardini@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                     I love the Eventually of Hal's note,
>>                     and I love Joyce, there is more to it than his
>>                     notes, had I only eternity to explain it all...
>>
>>
>>                     On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Halvard Johnson
>>                     <halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                         Helpful will do.
>>
>>
>>                         Hal
>>
>>                         "If something is boring after two minutes, try it
>>                         for four. If still boring, then eight. Then
>>                         sixteen.
>>                         Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it
>>                         is not boring at all."
>>                                                        ~John Cage
>>
>>                         Halvard Johnson
>>                         ================
>>                         halvard@gmail.com <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>                         http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>                         http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>                         http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>                         http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                         On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole
>>                         <Opus40-01@opus40.org
>>                         <mailto:Opus40-01@opus40.org>> wrote:
>>
>>                             Footnotes aren't super-helpful.
>>
>>                             Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>
>>                                 http://finwake.com/
>>
>>                                 Hal
>>
>>                                 "If something is boring after two
>>                                 minutes, try it
>>                                 for four. If still boring, then
>>                                 eight. Then sixteen.
>>                                 Then thirty-two. Eventually one
>>                                 discovers that it
>>                                 is not boring at all."
>>                                                               ~John Cage
>>
>>                                 Halvard Johnson
>>                                 ================
>>                                 halvard@gmail.com
>>                                 <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>
>>                                 <mailto:halvard@gmail.com
>>                                 <mailto:halvard@gmail.com>>
>>
>>                                 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>                                 http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>                                 http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>                                 http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>
>>                                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                                 _______________________________________________
>>                                 New-Poetry mailing list
>>                                 New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>                                 <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>                                 http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>                                  
>>
>>
>>                             -- 
>>                             Tad Richards
>>                             Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner
>>                             column today!
>>                             http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>>
>>                             http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>                             http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>                         _______________________________________________
>>                         New-Poetry mailing list
>>                         New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>                         <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>                         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                     -- 
>>                     Anny Ballardini
>>                     http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>                     http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>                     http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>                     http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>                     I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to
>>                     give birth to a dancing star!
>>                     Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>>                     ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>                     vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>                     Giovenale
>>
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     New-Poetry mailing list
>>                     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>                     <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>                     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 New-Poetry mailing list
>>                 New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>                 <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>                 http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             New-Poetry mailing list
>>             New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>             <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>             http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     New-Poetry mailing list
>>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep 14 22:22:27 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep 14 20:29:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery comes full circle
Message-ID: <8CC03C280CDA40C-325C-336B4@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.cleveland.com/books/index.ssf/2009/09/poet_john_ashbery_comes_full_c.html

Poet John Ashbery comes full circle
by Karen R. Long/Plain Dealer Book Editor 
Monday September 14, 2009, 4:15 PM



Poet John Ashbery won the first National Book Critics Circle award for his landmark fifth book 35 years ago this month. It was my joy to listen to him reminisce Saturday night, Sept. 12, at a gathering for him and the NBCC's first fiction winner, E.L. Doctorow, in Manhattan. 
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From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Mon Sep 14 22:38:08 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon Sep 14 20:44:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
Message-ID: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>

http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html

I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob
Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?
From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep 14 23:29:43 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon Sep 14 21:36:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
In-Reply-To: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>

How about my ABC villanelle or my 5/4 syllabic poems?

Michael Snider wrote:
> http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html
>
> I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob
> Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 14 23:30:52 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon Sep 14 21:37:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clark on Carroll
Message-ID: <18869498-A863-4DA8-83C9-FBAE1D18293F@ripon.edu>

Tom Clark reminisces about Jim Carroll at his blog:

http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/


========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 14 23:53:13 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon Sep 14 21:59:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
In-Reply-To: <4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
References: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <A498DFDE-FFAD-49B2-BFC0-CD2EE5D2BE11@ripon.edu>

I invented a form once.  Frustrated with my inability to write a  
decent sestina, I decided to try the same pattern with 4 repeater  
words instead of six.  The result was a nifty little 14-liner  
(complete with a couplet for the envoi) which I proudly dubbed the  
sonnetina.

One problem with my invention was that I don't think it was original.   
I can't recall where I ran across an example, but I believe someone  
else had previously come up with the notion, if not the cool name.

But the more significant problem with the form, from my perspective,  
was that I never wrote a poem in it that was worth a damn.

Still strikes me as a cool shape, though. . . .

In my own defense, I will note that most poets can't write a decent  
sestina.  The percentage of sestinas that are good all the way through  
seems vanishingly small.  Unlike, say, the sonnet, which seems to work  
just great in English.  Even many otherwise spiffy sestinas suffer the  
dreaded "sestina sag" somewhere in the middle, with three or four  
clunker lines or big patches of obvious padding.

In my day I have written but never published any number of sonnets,  
sestinas, and villanelles. Those forms just don't seem to work well  
for me.  The received form I've had most success with is the pantoum.  
I've also got some triolets and other odd ones that I like just fine,  
but so far no editor has agreed with me.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 14, 2009, at 10:29 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> How about my ABC villanelle or my 5/4 syllabic poems?
>
> Michael Snider wrote:
>> http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html
>>
>> I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob
>> Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:45:13 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 15 03:52:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critical Approaches to Ethnic American Literature
	(CAEAL)
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909150245i4d386a7x3c109540eb6d3d3a@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.rodopi.nl/senj.asp?SerieId=CAEAL

The volumes in the series offer clear and comprehensive approaches to
selected topics (such as magical realism, border theory, and others),
covering the different implications of each topic to the development of
ethnic American literatures. Volumes then proceed to comparative literary
analyses of carefully selected works from each ethnic tradition.



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:46:57 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 15 03:53:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	PROGRAM OF THE LINCOLN CONFERENCE IN PARIS (OCT. 17-18, 2009)
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909150246y232405a0i927de032f88fcaf1@mail.gmail.com>

        PROGRAM OF THE LINCOLN CONFERENCE IN PARIS (OCT. 17-18, 2009)

            Lincoln et son temps : regards europens d'hier aujourd'hui/

             European Readings of Abraham Lincoln, His Times & Legacy ?

                      17-18 octobre 2009 / October 17-18, 2009

                           American University of Paris

                      31 avenue Bosquet, 75007 Paris, France

                             Organis? par/ organized by

Universit?  Sorbonne Nouvelle-Paris 3

(Observatoire de la Politique Am?ricaine OPA/CREW)

Universit? Versailles-St-Quentin (Laboratoire Suds d?Am?riques)

En partenariat avec / Co-hosted by:

The American University of Paris

Avec le soutien de / With support from The

American Embassy in Paris et l?Institut des Am?riques (Paris)

Sous le parainnage de / With the endorsement of

The Lincoln Bicentennial Commission and ReDEHJA

(French network for early American studies)

Contact :             Naomi

Wulf            <mailto:naomi.wulf@univ-paris3.fr<naomi.wulf@univ-paris3.fr>
>naomi.wulf@univ-paris3.fr

                       John

Dean             <mailto:jdlutece@yahoo.com <jdlutece@yahoo.com>>
jdlutece@yahoo.com


Samedi 17 octobre / Saturday, October 17

9h15 ? 9h45

Introduction / Opening comments (President of la

Sorbonne-Nouvelle, President of

Versailles-St-Quentin, President of AUP, American Ambassador in Paris)

9h45 ? 10h45

Conf?rence pl?ni?re / Plenary: Richard Carwardine

(St Catherine College, Oxford, UK) Pr?sentation /

Chair: David Waller (University of Northampton, UK)

?Abraham Lincoln: The Nationalist as Universalist.?

10h45 ? 11h15 : pause-caf? / coffee-break

11h15 ? 12h30

S?ance / Session 1- Lire les discours de Lincoln

: d?mocratie et nationalisme / Reading Lincoln?s

Speeches: Democracy and Nationalism

Pr?sidente de s?ance / Chair: Marie-Jeanne Rossignol (Universit?
Paris-Diderot)

- Jared Peatman (Texas A&M University), ?The

Gettysburg Address as Foreign Policy?

- Olivier Frayss? (University Paris-Sorbonne),

?Crafty Lincoln and Honest Abe in the Media War: The Homespun Spin?

12h30 ? 14h : d?jeuner / lunch

14h ? 15h15

S?ance / Session 2 - De la guerre de S?cession ?

la Deuxi?me guerre mondiale : Lincoln et la

guerre, vus d?Europe / From the Civil War to

World War II: Lincoln and War Seen from Europe

Pr?sident de s?ance / Chair: Steve Ekovich (American University of Paris)

- Howard J. Fuller (University of Wolverhampton,

UK), ??If this nation should happen to get

well??: Great Britain, Abraham Lincoln & the Threat of War?

- Sam Edwards (Lancaster University, UK), ?From

Here Lincoln Came: Abraham Lincoln, the ?Special

Relationship?, and Anglo-American Commemorations of World War II?

15h15 ? 15h45 : pause-caf? / coffee break

15h45 ? 17h

S?ance / Session 3 - Repr?sentations de Lincoln,

repr?sentations de soi / Representing Lincoln, Observing Oneself

Pr?sident de s?ance / Chair: Jacques Pothier

(Universit? Versailles-St. Quentin)

- Catherine Clinton (Queen?s College, Belfast),

?Statuary and Status: Lincoln Memorials in Europe?

- Marie Cordi? Levy (lyc?e Lavoisier, Paris),

?Trois autoportraits de Mathew Brady en

observateur du pouvoir?/ ? Three Self-portraits

by Mathew Brady as an Observer of Power ?

18h-19h30 : R?ception / Reception (American Library in Paris)

Dimanche 18 octobre / Sunday, October 18

9h15 ? 10h15

Conf?rence pl?ni?re / Plenary: David Blight (Yale University)

Pr?sentation / Chair: Evelyne Varieras (Sorbonne Nouvelle-Paris 3)

?America's Man for All Seasons: The Paradoxical Legacies of Abraham
Lincoln.?

10h15 ? 10h45 : pause-caf? / coffee break

10h45 ? 12h00

S?ance / Session 4 - Lincoln et la tradition

euro-am?ricaine de libre-pens?e / Lincoln and the

Euro-American Tradition of Free Thought

Pr?sidente de s?ance / Chair: Naomi Wulf (Sorbonne Nouvelle-Paris 3)

- Nathalie Caron (Universit? Paris Est), ?Paine,

Lincoln et la libre pens?e?/ ? Paine, Lincoln and Free-Thought ?

- Laurence Gr?goire (Universit? Paris-Sorbonne),

?L?hommage de la franc-ma?onnerie fran?aise ?

Abraham Lincoln ?/ ? The Homage of French Masonry to Abraham Lincoln ?

12h00  ? 13h30 : d?jeuner / lunch

13h30 ? 14h45

S?ance / Session 5 - Filmer Lincoln/ Filming Lincoln

Pr?sident de s?ance / Chair: Dominique Sipi?re

(Universit? Paris Ouest - Nanterre)

Anne-Marie Paquet-Deyris (Paris Ouest - Nanterre)

and John Dean (Versailles-St-Quentin),

?Representing Lincoln on the Screen / Europe-USA?

14h45 ? 16h

S?ance / Session 6 - Enseigner Lincoln en Europe

et aux Etats-Unis / Teaching Lincoln in Europe and the United States

Chair: Thomas Mackey (University of Louisville, Kentucky)

- Martina Kohl (American Embassy in Berlin),

?Teaching Lincoln in The EFL Classroom: A German Case Study?

- Jason Hansen (University of Illinois), ?Land of

Lincoln: the Teaching of an Historical Icon at

the University of Illinois, 1867-2009?

16h ? 16h30 : pause-caf? / coffee break

16h30 ? 18h

Table-ronde / Roundtable:  ?Lincoln en Europe? / ? Lincoln in Europe ?

Pr?sident de s?ance / Chair: Bernard Vincent (Universit? d?Orl?ans)

- J?rg Nagler (Jena University, Germany),

?Abraham Lincoln?s Image and Reception in Germany?

- William D. Pederson (Louisiana State

University), ?The European Evolution of the Lincoln Legacy?

- Michael Vorenberg (Brown University), ?French

Readings of Lincoln?s Role in the Creation of American Citizenship?

TO REGISTRER, PLEASE CLICK ON

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=ck9hM2tkclM1WjJLM1lxRFFwVDU4Umc6MA
..


Bernard Vincent

65 rue Claude Bernard

75005 Paris (France)

Tel. 0143362936

 From abroad: 33.1.43362936

bernard.vincent@noos.fr




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:50:26 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 15 03:57:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jason Bredle
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909150250v7ecf70a2g18f306807c7cc86@mail.gmail.com>

Subject: 2009 National Chapbook Contest Winner

It is my pleasure to announce the winner of the 2009 Dream Horse Press
National Chapbook Contest is Jason Bredle for his manuscript, The Book
of Evil.  Which will be released in Late Spring-Early Summer by Dream
Horse Press.

Jason Bredle is the author of Standing in Line for the Beast, winner
of the 2006 New Issues Poetry Prize, and A Twelve Step Guide, winner
of the 2004 New Michigan Press chapbook contest. His most recent book,
Pain Fantasy, is available from Red Morning Press. A new chapbook,
Class Project, is forthcoming from Publishing Genius. He lives in
Chicago.

There were a good amount of entries to the DHP National Chapbook
Contest which kept me and the judge CJ Sage busy.  I was grateful for
the number of strong entries to the contest this year.  For those who
entered, I thank you.

Best and warmest,
Bear



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:52:07 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 15 03:58:53 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Take "A Walk Though the Memory Palace" with
	qarrtsiluni's new chapbook
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909150252m2edeb315k8042584591e58e6d@mail.gmail.com>

**A Walk Through the Memory Palace** by Pamela Johnson Parker,
Qarrtsiluni's first chapbook, is now out, and it's a thing of beauty
in both its print and online incarnations. Please visit our
anouncement post for the full details,
http://www.facebook.com/l/b2701;qarrtsiluni.com/2009/09/14/a-walk-through-the-memory-palace/

In other major news, we've adopted a new a site design. Author
bios will now appear below each of their works instead of being
relegated to a "notes on contributors" post at the end of the issue.
See our explanation of the changes:
http://www.facebook.com/l/b2701;qarrtsiluni.tumblr.com/post/186488938/qarrtsilunis-new-look-more-than-a-facelift

We will begin serializing the Words of Power issue on Wednesday, and
we have to say, this theme really prompted some interesting
submissions! We received a record number, too. (If you're one of the
folks who submitted work in the last three days before the deadline,
we promise to get back to you very soon.)

As a reminder: if you don't want to rely upon the vagaries of
Facebook, which takes its good sweet time circulating these messages
to about half of you (and no, we don't know which half), you should
join our new announcements list on Google Groups,
http://www.facebook.com/l/b2701;groups.google.com/group/qarrtsiluni-news
We will no longer be sending to our gmail lists.

Look for an announcement about the next submissions period on November
1. In the meantime, please do stop by the site, check out our new
look, and of course check out *A Walk Through the Memory Palace.*

Dave and Beth



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:55:18 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 15 04:02:06 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fence
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909150255n4f27e3c1p32790e01f5fffb27@mail.gmail.com>

On Saturday, *Fence* is having a Garden
Party<http://mlists.fenceportal.org/images/gardenpartyinvite.gif>(even
if it rains) to celebrate the
*A Best of Fence* anthology, featuring readings by contributors and editors
(Lynne Tillman, Peter Gizzi, Sarah Gambito, Stacy Doris, Matthew Rohrer, Max
Winter) between 1 and 6 pm.

On Sunday, *Fence* & Fence Books will share a table (#76) with the
fabulous Open
City <http://www.opencity.org/> at the Brooklyn Book
Festival<http://www.brooklynbookfestival.org/>
.

On Saturday and Sunday *Fence* & Fence Books will be at Boog City's Small
Press Fair. <http://www.thelmagazine.com/newyork/Event?oid=1238632>

At both of these book fairs we'll be offering some typically generous
discounts on our books and on subscriptions to the magazine. If you can't
make it to the fairs don't forget that we're offering a seemingly continuous
deal on our site: If you subscribe to *Fence* for two years you get to pick
a free book<http://www.ccnow.com/cgi-local/cart.cgi?fencemag_CHOOSE-A-BOOK_http://www.fenceportal.org>.
So for $30 you get four issues of *Fence* and a book of your choice.

Meanwhile! (I had to get an exclamation point in here somehow.) Fence Books
two book contests now have updated guidelines and required entry
forms<http://fence.fenceportal.org/contest/guidelines.html>on our
site.


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep 15 07:25:26 2009
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 15 05:32:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clark on Carroll
Message-ID: <c94.4f925e43.37e0d3a6@aol.com>

Thanks, David. 
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From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Tue Sep 15 07:30:46 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue Sep 15 05:37:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
In-Reply-To: <4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
References: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <6768ac830909150430w466ae558h548554bb84e5996a@mail.gmail.com>

Send 'em, Tad!

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:29 PM, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:
> How about my ABC villanelle or my 5/4 syllabic poems?
>
> Michael Snider wrote:
>>
>> http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html
>>
>> I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob
>> Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Tue Sep 15 07:31:52 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue Sep 15 05:38:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
In-Reply-To: <A498DFDE-FFAD-49B2-BFC0-CD2EE5D2BE11@ripon.edu>
References: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
	<A498DFDE-FFAD-49B2-BFC0-CD2EE5D2BE11@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6768ac830909150431g8361ee1r486a6b37912f6532@mail.gmail.com>

David,

If anyone would know whether the form's original, it would be Lew.
Let him know about it.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:53 PM, David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu> wrote:
> I invented a form once. ?Frustrated with my inability to write a decent
> sestina, I decided to try the same pattern with 4 repeater words instead of
> six. ?The result was a nifty little 14-liner (complete with a couplet for
> the envoi) which I proudly dubbed the sonnetina.
> One problem with my invention was that I don't think it was original. ?I
> can't recall where I ran across an example, but I believe someone else had
> previously come up with the notion, if not the cool name.
> But the more significant problem with the form, from my perspective, was
> that I never wrote a poem in it that was worth a damn.
> Still strikes me as a cool shape, though. . . .
> In my own defense, I will note that most poets can't write a decent sestina.
> ?The percentage of sestinas that are good all the way through seems
> vanishingly small. ?Unlike, say, the sonnet, which seems to work just great
> in English. ?Even many otherwise spiffy sestinas suffer the dreaded "sestina
> sag" somewhere in the middle, with three or four clunker lines or big
> patches of obvious padding.
> In my day I have written but never published any number of sonnets,
> sestinas, and villanelles. Those forms just don't seem to work well for me.
> ?The received form I've had most success with is the pantoum. I've also got
> some triolets and other odd ones that I like just fine, but so far no editor
> has agreed with me.
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd@ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2009, at 10:29 PM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
> How about my ABC villanelle or my 5/4 syllabic poems?
>
> Michael Snider wrote:
>
> http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html
>
> I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob
>
> Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
>
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

From tony at starve.org  Tue Sep 15 08:27:35 2009
From: tony at starve.org (Tony Trigilio)
Date: Tue Sep 15 06:39:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jason Bredle
Message-ID: <4AAF8837.1020607@starve.org>

Thanks for sending this along, Anny.  Jason is an excellent poet, & this 
is well deserved.

Best,
Tony


> Subject: 2009 National Chapbook Contest Winner
>
> It is my pleasure to announce the winner of the 2009 Dream Horse Press
> National Chapbook Contest is Jason Bredle for his manuscript, The Book
> of Evil.  Which will be released in Late Spring-Early Summer by Dream
> Horse Press.
>
> Jason Bredle is the author of Standing in Line for the Beast, winner
> of the 2006 New Issues Poetry Prize, and A Twelve Step Guide, winner
> of the 2004 New Michigan Press chapbook contest. His most recent book,
> Pain Fantasy, is available from Red Morning Press. A new chapbook,
> Class Project, is forthcoming from Publishing Genius. He lives in
> Chicago.
>
> There were a good amount of entries to the DHP National Chapbook
> Contest which kept me and the judge CJ Sage busy.  I was grateful for
> the number of strong entries to the contest this year.  For those who
> entered, I thank you.
>
> Best and warmest,
> Bear
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>   

From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 15 08:52:15 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 15 06:59:25 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"
In-Reply-To: <A498DFDE-FFAD-49B2-BFC0-CD2EE5D2BE11@ripon.edu>
References: <6768ac830909141938m4df21e1dm25cb7a617f4c699e@mail.gmail.com><4AAF0A27.3070901@opus40.org>
	<A498DFDE-FFAD-49B2-BFC0-CD2EE5D2BE11@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8CC041A7C8F0C16-316C-3144@webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com>

My definition of the sestina: 6 words repeated till depletion.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd@ripon.edu>
Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:53 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lew Turco's "Odd and Invented Forms"


I invented a form once. ?Frustrated with my inability to write a decent sestina, I decided to try the same pattern with 4 repeater words instead of six. ?The result was a nifty little 14-liner (complete with a couplet for the envoi) which I proudly dubbed the sonnetina.



One problem with my invention was that I don't think it was original. ?I can't recall where I ran across an example, but I believe someone else had previously come up with the notion, if not the cool name.




But the more significant problem with the form, from my perspective, was that I never wrote a poem in it that was worth a damn.




Still strikes me as a cool shape, though. . . .




In my own defense, I will note that most poets can't write a decent sestina. ?The percentage of sestinas that are good all the way through seems vanishingly small. ?Unlike, say, the sonnet, which seems to work just great in English. ?Even many otherwise spiffy sestinas suffer the dreaded "sestina sag" somewhere in the middle, with three or four clunker lines or big patches of obvious padding. ?




In my day I have written but never published any number of sonnets, sestinas, and villanelles. Those forms just don't seem to work well for me. ?The received form I've had most success with is the pantoum. I've also got some triolets and other odd ones that I like just fine, but so far no editor has agreed with me. ?








========================================

David Graham

grahamd@ripon.edu




Home Page:

http://web.me.com/drjazz




Poetry Library:

http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================











On Sep 14, 2009, at 10:29 PM, TheOldMole wrote:



How about my ABC villanelle or my 5/4 syllabic poems?

Michael Snider wrote:

http://lewisturco.typepad.com/poetics/odd-and-invented-forms.html





I'm pleased he's included my Twitter triplet form, the Twiplet. Bob


Grumman, surely your mathemaku and some others should be on the page?


_______________________________________________


New-Poetry mailing list


New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu


http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





?


-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





= 


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 10:12:48 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 16 08:19:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] comics
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909160712y65e09cd5r5f77d2d4f6961604@mail.gmail.com>

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 11:42:25 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 16 09:49:02 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jasun Martz
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909160842x3ca076a9ne016b83000b3c24b@mail.gmail.com>

He collaborated with French modern master Jean
Dubuffet<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Dubuffet>(the founder of
*art brut <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_Art>*) on Martz?s
critically acclaimed avant-garde/ contemporary classical symphony entitled *The
Pillory*.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZjnvOW-ec4


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 16 15:17:10 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 16 13:23:44 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slaves to Do These Things - Reviewers?
Message-ID: <412008.19269.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hi All,
I have a new book forthcoming in the months ahead -- if you're interested in reviewing it, please drop a note at amyhappens@gmail.com
Thanks,
Amy
About Slaves to Do These Things:
I'm portable. My mind travels / the verse and valleys of whole people?says the poet.?Correct! Readers of this book will discover their own memories. They will melt in them, amazed, lullabied, dramatized, shocked that they exist. Amy King is a true bard.

? Toma? ?alamun?Smoke n? hott, these poems emerge as ??audible diamonds that cut, where Rock is King & candor disarms paranoia, or, in King?s case, downright dismembers it:?Forgive me, I am the final/ seminary soul to check your shape/ in the dress of that embalming line.??Passengered adeptly under the influence of Lorca, Neruda maybe, (Buried by midnight/ I am a warm/ fly in amber.) the reader wants to shout,?GO DUENDE!!!

?Jeni Olin
_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm?
For a review copy, please email me directly.


      
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 16 15:34:50 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed Sep 16 13:41:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slaves to Do These Things - Reviewers?
In-Reply-To: <412008.19269.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <412008.19269.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AB13DDA.5050002@opus40.org>

Any other time but now...but it's the months ahead? Maybe.

amy king wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a new book forthcoming in the months ahead -- if you're 
> interested in reviewing it, please drop a note at amyhappens@gmail.com
>
> Thanks,
>
> Amy
>
> About Slaves to Do These Things:
>
> /I'm portable. My mind travels / the verse and valleys of whole 
> people/ says the poet. Correct! Readers of this book will discover 
> their own memories. They will melt in them, amazed, lullabied, 
> dramatized, shocked that they exist. Amy King is a true bard.
>
> ? Toma? ?alamun
>
>  
>
> Smoke n? hott, these poems emerge as ? /audible diamonds that cut/, 
> where Rock is King & candor disarms paranoia, or, in King?s case, 
> downright dismembers it: /Forgive me, I am the final/ seminary soul to 
> check your shape/ in the dress of that embalming line./  Passengered 
> adeptly under the influence of Lorca, Neruda maybe, (/Buried by 
> midnight/ I am a warm/ fly in amber/.) the reader wants to shout, GO 
> DUENDE!!!
>
> ?Jeni Olin
>
>
> _______*
>
> NEW BOOK
>
> /Slaves to Do These Things/ -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm *
>
> For a review copy, please email me directly.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 16 15:39:51 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 16 13:46:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slaves to Do These Things - Reviewers?
In-Reply-To: <4AB13DDA.5050002@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <340648.14067.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I won't have review copies for a couple of weeks -- 'sup to you! ?
Amy

_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.

--- On Wed, 9/16/09, TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org> wrote:

From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01@opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Slaves to Do These Things - Reviewers?
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 3:34 PM

Any other time but now...but it's the months ahead? Maybe.

amy king wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a new book forthcoming in the months ahead -- if you're interested in reviewing it, please drop a note at amyhappens@gmail.com
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Amy
> 
> About Slaves to Do These Things:
> 
> /I'm portable. My mind travels / the verse and valleys of whole people/ says the poet. Correct! Readers of this book will discover their own memories. They will melt in them, amazed, lullabied, dramatized, shocked that they exist. Amy King is a true bard.
> 
> ? Toma? ?alamun
> 
>? 
> Smoke n? hott, these poems emerge as ? /audible diamonds that cut/, where Rock is King & candor disarms paranoia, or, in King?s case, downright dismembers it: /Forgive me, I am the final/ seminary soul to check your shape/ in the dress of that embalming line./? Passengered adeptly under the influence of Lorca, Neruda maybe, (/Buried by midnight/ I am a warm/ fly in amber/.) the reader wants to shout, GO DUENDE!!!
> 
> ?Jeni Olin
> 
> 
> _______*
> 
> NEW BOOK
> 
> /Slaves to Do These Things/ -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm *
> 
> For a review copy, please email me directly.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>???

-- Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



      
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From seamascain at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 11:14:02 2009
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Thu Sep 17 09:20:28 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] New poetry from the Rinn Gaeltacht
Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40909170814g24b21bf0v59106ad7fad9acfc@mail.gmail.com>

_______________


On Friday, September 18th, 2009, IMRAM, the annual Irish-language
literary festival, will present a special evening of performances of
poetry, music & song from the Rinn Gaeltacht.  (The poems will be
spoken or sung & simultaneously displayed in powerpoint.)

This event will take place at 7:00 p.m. at THE NEW THEATRE, 43 East
Essex Street in Dublin, Ireland.  Admission is 5 euros.

?ine U? Cheallaigh gained acclaim for her version of ?Lift the Wings?
in Riverdance.  She was born in Belfast, her father?s hometown.  Her
mother was from An Rinn.  Her musical influences can be traced to both
areas.  Her first solo album, "Idir Dh? Chomhairle," was released in
1992.

Stiof?n ? Cadhla is an expert in many areas, including folklore, holy
wells, & cartography.  His first collection of poetry, "An Creideamh
D?anach," explores history & family.

?ine U? Fhoghl??s second collection of poetry, "An Li? sa Chuan," won
the 2009 Michael Hartnett Award; in their citation the judges praised
her "strikingly beautiful" imagery.

The night's events will be steered by bean an t? Catherine Foley.

Friday,
18 September 2009,
7:00 p.m.,
THE NEW THEATRE,
43 East Essex Street,
Dublin, Ireland

Admission is 5 euros.

For additional information about the IMRAM Festival, go to ...

http://www.poetryireland.ie/whats-on/imram.html

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-IRISH-LANGUAGE-LITERATURE-FESTIVAL

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-FEILE-LITRIOCHTA-GAEILGE

Questions may be put to
Liam Carson, Director of
IMRAM Festival at ...

liamog62@mac.com

Books featured at
the IMRAM Festival
may be purchased
from ...

Connolly Books,
connollybooks@eircom.net
43 East Essex Street,
Dublin 2, Ireland

beir bua,

S?amas Cain
http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain
http://alazanto.org/seamascain

_______________

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 13:29:55 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep 17 11:36:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: the passing on 9/11 of jim carroll
In-Reply-To: <20090915.121143.3844.17.skyplums@juno.com>
References: <20090915.121143.3844.17.skyplums@juno.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909171029k2f5a21e9k5145449c7935fb1@mail.gmail.com>

I am forwarding from another list:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: steve dalachinsky <skyplums@juno.com>


it has been brought to my attention just now
that this has occurred



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep 17 14:09:57 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 17 12:16:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] notnostrums poetry movie premiere!
In-Reply-To: <4AB0EA15.70508@hfa.umass.edu>
References: <4AB0EA15.70508@hfa.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <8CC05D932DFFD95-6A8-13990@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: MFA Program <mfapoetsandwriters@hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:37 am
Subject: [Mfa-alum] Going Public Lit Series, notnostrums poetry movie premiere!



*Join us for the world premiere of*
*WHEN YOU THINK OF IT*
*a film by notnostrums*
*Thursday, September 17 at 7PM, Amherst Cinema*
* *
This is a movie. Not Lone Star. Not The Loneliness of the Long Distance 
unner. Not Pillow Talk. Not All That Heaven Allows. Not The Awful 
ruth. Not Blazing Saddles. Not The Crying Game. Not Every Man For 
imself. Not Ship of Fools. Not The Lady Vanishes. Not Dark Victory. 
his is a notnostrums movie. In this movie people are reading poems in 
any places. **
Experience the premiere of the debut film by notnostrums, an innovative 
nline poetry journal. Featuring renowned and emerging poets reading new 
ork in a wide range of unexpected places, WHEN YOU THINK OF IT 
e-imagines the ways poetry reaches us and presents a dazzling array of 
ontemporary poetry.
Tickets: $5 Online at www.amherstcinema.org 
http://www.amherstcinema.org/> and at the Amherst Cinema box office.
See the trailer at: http://www.notnostrums.com/iss3/investigations.php
Going Public Contemporary Lit Series is presented in collaboration with 
he UMass MFA Program for Poets and Writers? Juniper Initiative, the 
mherst Cinema Arts Center and the UMass Fine Arts Center.
Lisa Olstein
Associate Director
MFA Program for Poets and Writers & Juniper Initiative
458 Bartlett Hall, Department of English
University of Massachusetts
Amherst,
 MA 01003
(413) 545-5510
_______________________________________________
fa-alum mailing list
fa-alum@english.umass.edu
ttps://list.umass.edu/mailman/listinfo/mfa-alum

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 09:35:16 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 18 07:41:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Holiday for all the Jews
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909180635x27d43431xdd98e19c810ad00a@mail.gmail.com>

A soldier's voice rediscovered
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/18/nyregion/18cantor.html?hp


and also a short video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZihm6VlYjo


My best wishes,
Anny Ballardini




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 18 12:15:08 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 18 10:21:30 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Perfetto come la 'O' di Giotto
Message-ID: <8CC0692534640B8-4840-20305@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com>


If in poetry there was an analog to Vasari?s story about Giotto?s perfect circle*, would it be the ability to compose a perfect pentameter couplet as epigram on any given subject? ("Perfetto come la 'O' di Giotto", the Italian meaning: "As perfect as Giotto's circle".)



Finnegan

http://ursprache.blogspot.com/



*For Vasari's tale, see seventh paragraph...

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vasari/vasari1.htm
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 12:42:21 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 18 10:48:38 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Perfetto come la 'O' di Giotto
In-Reply-To: <8CC0692534640B8-4840-20305@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC0692534640B8-4840-20305@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909180942g2a794468y8d3063eddfa5e6a3@mail.gmail.com>

Bravo James! That is perfect Italian, :-)
I never tire of reading Vasari's stories, what a clean, light, refreshing,
delightful style,
thank you, Anny

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:15 PM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> If in poetry there was an analog to Vasari?s story about Giotto?s perfect
> circle*, would it be the ability to compose a perfect pentameter couplet as
> epigram on any given subject? (*"Perfetto come la 'O' di Giotto"*, the
> Italian meaning: "As perfect as Giotto's circle".)
>
> Finnegan
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
>
> *For Vasari's tale, see seventh paragraph...
> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vasari/vasari1.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 13:17:12 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 18 11:23:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PoemTalk 22: on Zukofsky
In-Reply-To: <72136D87-C72C-4434-BB47-010A0571D15A@writing.upenn.edu>
References: <72136D87-C72C-4434-BB47-010A0571D15A@writing.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909181017w108cc7a4xff6412549fea269e@mail.gmail.com>

Enjoy:



Today we are releasing PoemTalk episode 22, a discussion of the twelfth poem
of *Anew* by Louis Zukofsky:

http://www.poemtalk.org

- a conversation with Bob Perelman, Wystan Curnow and Charles Bernstein.

Al Filreis
Kelly Professor
Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House
Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing
University of Pennsylvania

on the web: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis<http://writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis>
blog: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/blog<http://writing.upenn.edu/%7Eafilreis/blog>
PoemTalk: http://www.poemtalk.org
dial 215-746-POEM or 215-746-7636







-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 13:05:56 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Fri Sep 18 11:23:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets' Quarterly call for submissions
Message-ID: <371974.55475.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:?Poets' Quarterly?<info@poetsquarterly.com>

?Poets' Quarterly, a new online journal, is seeking reviews of poetry books and chapbooks, as well as author interviews, for the October launch issue.?www.poetsquarterly.com?To give you an idea of what's to come, the launch issue will include reviews of?Tulips, Water, Ash?by Lisa Gluskin Stonestreet,?At night the dead?by Lisa Ciccarello,?American Prophet?by Robert Fanning,?Taste of Cherry?by Kara Candito, and?From the Fever-World?by Jehanne Dubrow. Some of the contributors include Emma Bolden, Jill Crammond Wickham, Valerie Wedtlaufer, and Karen Weyant to name a few.?We're actively seeking reviews, interviews, and a nice stable of writers so I'd appreciate any help in spreading the word!
?Best regards,?Lori A. May?Editor-in-ChiefPOETS' QUARTERLYwww.poetsquarterly.cominfo@poetsquarterly.com




_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.


      
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From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 03:12:28 2009
From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (Jorgensen, Alexander)
Date: Sat Sep 19 01:18:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Milwaukee (Winter Movement) & Body as Conflict
	(viz poety) at Shampoo
In-Reply-To: <200909111600.n8BG05nB000999@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <81945.69814.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirtysix/jorgensen.html
?
Hope you enjoy!
Alex

--
Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with."

--- On Sat, 9/12/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu> wrote:


From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 12:00 AM


Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

???1. Re: was Polemic now dialect (Jason Quackenbush)
???2. Re: was Polemic now dialect (Jason Quackenbush)
???3. Re: was Polemic now dialect (Robin Hamilton)
???4. Re: was Polemic now dialect (Robin Hamilton)
???5. Toxic Call for Submissions (Jade Hudson)
???6. WorldPo: Korean French Connection (jforjames@aol.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:43:06 -0700
From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;??? Views"
??? <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <A32B0029-1B74-44B5-8C64-2FD6C066CBC2@myuw.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Sep 10, 2009, at 6:22 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> i was actually thinking of criminals as tradesmen in a sort of???
>> informal guild (much like "the johnsons" of USAmerican vagabond???
>> culture prior to WWII), which is to say, my take on cant does sort? 
>> of? include what you're talking about.
>
> There's an overlap, certainly, and the hierarchy of vagabonds found? 
> in Awdrey's _Fraternity of Vagabonds_ and Harman's _Caveat for? 
> Common Cursitors_ in the 1560s might be at least partly modeled on? 
> the craft guilds.? But the OED (for what it's worth in this area)? 
> gives CANT v3 as the language of thieves and vagabonds going back to? 
> Harman in 1567, and doesn't cite a use of the strictly tradesman? 
> meaning till Ben Jonson in 1625.? Why (among other reasons) I prefer? 
> to use jargon as the term for trade cant used by lawyers and cobblers.
I think that's the reason Maurer used "jargon" in "language of the? 
underworld" if I recall correctly. I like the term cant tho and will? 
plead archaism happily in trying to revive the term.

> Mostly, there is a continuity between the cant which appears in? 
> Copland in 1530 and street speech in New York at least as late as? 
> 1850 -- some words change, as morts morph into blowens, but some,? 
> like "cove" for a man, could have been spoken on the Street any time? 
> between 1530 and 1900.
>
> After 1900 ...? Well, nothing lasts forever.
>
But there is still in the US a presence at least into the nineteen? 
thirties and here i think both Jack Black and David Maurer are? 
informative. Beyond that I'm not enough of a cultural linguistics wonk? 
to know if there is reasonable source material, but I do know that? 
Jack Black's "You Can't Win" was a considerable influence on William? 
S. Burroughs, so there's an influence lasting into the nineteen? 
eighties at least.
{SNIP}
> A Song made by a Flash Cove the Evening before his Execution.
>
> My blowen came here t'other night,
> She fetch'd us a jorum of diddle,
> To the prisoners it gave great delight,
> And we hopp'd it away to the fiddle.
> But our trade of diving doth fail,
> My blowen has chang'd habitations;
> For now she pads in the gaol,
> And laughs at the flats of the nation.
> But at length the dull-gown's-man comes in
> And tips me soft tales of repentance,
> When on him I do cast my brow,
> I care not one fig for his sentence.
> By th' gullet I'll be ty'd very tight
> To-morrow:-my blowen pray for us,
> My peepers will be hid from the light,
> The tumbler shoves off, so I morris.
>
> Thing is, this is, though Mount doesn't know it, two stanzas from? 
> "John Sheppard's Lament," supposedly composed by Jack Sheppard and? 
> printed the day after his execution in London in 1728, over sixty? 
> years and 3,000 miles away from where Mount was hanged in turn.???
> Even in England, the text gets pretty rapidly detached from Sheppard? 
> and usually appears as "The Bowman Prig's Farewell."
>
> It's difficult to know who to trust in this area.? Julie Coleman and? 
> Jonathan Green, both of whom I have an enormous admiration for,? 
> blithely dismiss Copland's "Highway to the Spital House" of 1530 as? 
> mostly doggerel, only of interest for the six lines of cant near the? 
> end.? When I read the poem, my jaw dropped -- Copland seems to be? 
> able to present vagabonds speaking in at least three different? 
> registers, and to be acutely aware of the difference.
>
I think there may be a tradition of "gallow's laments" that's worth? 
pursuing although again I'm well outside an area of even autodidactic? 
knowledge on this point. Of particular note tho might be the fiddle? 
tune "mcpherson's lament" which folk history among celtic folk? 
musicians holds was debuted on the gallows by the famous fiddler James? 
McPherson right before he was hanged for robbery sometime in the 18th? 
century. I've always marvelled that if this was true? there were? 
people in attendance at the performance who retained the piece well? 
enough to pass it along into the folk music tradition. It makes sense? 
that it would be, as it's a peculiar and lovely piece of music, but? 
I've always thought there had to be something more to that story and I? 
wonder if this sort of mythmaking might play into the general culture? 
from which all this material emerged.
>
>
> It would be nice to have more of the work already done, but I've? 
> realised for some time that I'm going to have to re-edit _Musa? 
> Pedestris_ from the ground up.? Farmer's work was crucial when it? 
> was printed, but it's a crying shame that it's *still the key text? 
> in this area.? When I'm not consumed by admiration for Farmer, I? 
> could happily strangle him.
>
>> I don't know for sure because my? french isn't good enough and i? 
>> can't find my copy of the book anyway,? but isn't there a link to? 
>> british st giles greek in the Les Miserables? section on the? 
>> thieves cant of 18th c. paris?
>
> I'll have to chase this further -- I'd put it to one side while I? 
> got on with other things -- but almost certainly there would be.???
> Hugo's informant here (and the model for Vautrin and Valjean) was? 
> Eugene Vidocq, and when Vidocq wasn't being a criminal or catching? 
> them, he passed his time writing on French cant (in _Les Voleurs_).

At the same time, again, I'm not sure the master of crime is ALL that? 
reliable of a source. There's enough boasting and wild happenstance in? 
his autobiography to make one question just how much of his "criminal? 
background" is exaggeration. At least for me. Maybe scholars on the? 
field have a different view, but I've always looked at Vidocq with? 
narrowed eyes.

> Coincidentally enough, the canting terms used by English card sharps? 
> get documented before Harman's _Caveat_ (1567), in Gilbert Walker's? 
> _A manifest detection of the most vyle and detestable use of dice? 
> play_ in 1552.? Robert Greene in his coney-catching pamphlets of the? 
> early 1590s manages to mash the two traditions together, just to? 
> muddy the waters even further, but the specific card-sharping terms? 
> tend to drop out of use pretty quickly.
At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by? 
magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a? 
short section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's? 
"The Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one? 
of the few early sources on performance magic. There's also an? 
explicit interest among magician's in their own writing with card? 
cheats and conmen beginning with the French magician Robert Houdin's? 
Les Tricheries des Grecques and continuing into the twentieth century? 
with Dai Vernon's obsession and fascination with card sharps in the? 
americas, going so far as to track down a lot of working sharps to? 
learn their sleights, and which is seen in the obsessions of current? 
performers like Ricky Jay and Simon Lovell who have both written books? 
on historical and contemporary conmen, and Harry Anderson who? 
practically built a career out of playing a criminal from the 30s/40s.
? 


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:02:35 -0700
From: Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;??? Views"
??? <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <F5FA06DC-D15D-48FB-9F46-871ABA09CBC4@myuw.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

urdu and hindi too.
On Sep 10, 2009, at 8:22 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:

> To muddy the waters a bit, a "language," and which dialects it? 
> contains, is often defined politically, a process that continues.? 
> Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are mutually understandable and? 
> syntactically identical. As I've been told, the same could be said? 
> for Ukrainian/Russian. Auvergnat is a French dialect only because? 
> the French say so. Several of the Sicilian dialects are no more? 
> intelligible to a Tuscan than Portuguese, but they're dialects of? 
> Italian. Literate Arabs everywhere read the same dialect, but? 
> Lebanese and Moroccans are mutually unintelligible.
>
> Robin, how is Geordie dealt with? To my ear it's a lot closer to? 
> Glaswegian than to London, but it's on the other side of the Tweed.? 
> (speaking of unintelligible.)
>
> Mark
>
> At 06:02 AM 9/10/2009, you wrote:
>> Ouch!? I seem to be (quite justly) hoist with my own petard here.???
>> I'll work through what Jason says, indicating agreement,? 
>> disagreement, qualification, whatever.
>>
>> This is going to be mostly off the top of my head, unless otherwise? 
>> stated.
>>
>>
>>> as i understand it: language is a large amorphous body of? 
>>> interrelated and largely interintelligible forms of communication
>>
>> Agreed, mostly, that what defines a language is the limits of its? 
>> inter-intelligibility.? But even that statement has to be qualified? 
>> slightly -- (geographically) extreme forms of Chinese, as I? 
>> understand it, aren't necessarily mutually intelligible in the? 
>> spoken form, though they may be written identically, but it still? 
>> makes sense to talk about the (one) Chinese language.? (As well as? 
>> of course individual forms of it such as Mandarin, etc,)
>>
>> To a certain much more minor extent, this even applies in current? 
>> English(es) -- Standard English(es) spoken in London, Leicester,? 
>> and New York will be mutually intelligible (often) but pronounced? 
>> differently, despite being written the same.
>>
>> But that later case is a language/accent difference rather than a? 
>> language/dialect one.
>>
>> Also, of course, what we mean by (the) English (Language) shifts in? 
>> the course of time in various ways.? What form of English are the? 
>> Mercian, West Saxon and Northumbrian forms of English spoken in the? 
>> eighth century in what's now known as the British Isles forms *of?
>>
>> Um ...? What I mean is that before roughly Caxton and the? 
>> introduction of printing to England in the 15thC, what we might? 
>> mean by "standard English" differs from what can be taken from the? 
>> term later -- is there or is there not a norm to diverge from????
>> (Added to which, British English, or possibly even more narrowly? 
>> English-Spoken-In-England is [or was] unusual in being defined by a? 
>> non-geographic norm -- according to Caxton (was it?), the English? 
>> spoken London (presumably by courtiers rather than plebs) and the? 
>> universities of Oxford and Cambridge, later a (social, not? 
>> geographical) standard which emerged via the (English) public? 
>> school system and Oxbridge. Though whether this still applies in? 
>> any meaningful sense in the UK, leave alone elsewhere ...
>>
>> So yeah, as a working point, I'm prepared to accept that what? 
>> distinguishes one language from another is whether or not the two? 
>> are mutually intelligible.? With caveats and qualifications.
>>
>>> that is defined? by a minimum set of syntactic rules, a shared? 
>>> lexicon, and certain? morphemic, phonetic, and semantic rules.
>>
>> I'd give a different weight of importance to most of the above in? 
>> defining what is or is not the core common element of what? 
>> constitues a language --
>> syntactic rules having easily the most weight, phonetic elements? 
>> having the least.? (See above on accent vs. dialect.)? The idea of? 
>> a shared lexicon is trickier, not least because different? 
>> individual speakers of the language will have different breadths of? 
>> lexis.? Mostly I'd feel it's a matter of degree -- at what point do? 
>> the differences become such that it makes more sense to talk about? 
>> a different language or dialect than to think in terms of variation? 
>> within a single language?
>>
>> In one sense, there's a truth in the statement that current English? 
>> and German and Dutch are simply variants of a single Germanic? 
>> language.? It may be true, but (other than historically) it isn't a? 
>> particularly *useful observation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:44:08 +0100
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;??? Views"
??? <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <0E785877B4E542C7B930BD43E25FA13D@RobinLaptopPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
??? reply-type=response

> I think that's the reason Maurer used "jargon" in "language of the 
> underworld" if I recall correctly. I like the term cant tho and will 
> plead archaism happily in trying to revive the term.

Thanks for the tip -- I've ordered _You Can't Win_, but Maurer is going to 
have to wait till I get to a library, given the price.? It's possible that 
he used "jargon", as this is (with "argot") the French term. Alice Becker-Ho 
(the widow of Guy Debord) entitles her book on the influence of Romany on 
cant throughout Europe and elsewhere,? _Les princes du jargon_.

? ? SNIP

> I think there may be a tradition of "gallow's laments" that's worth 
> pursuing although again I'm well outside an area of even autodidactic 
> knowledge on this point.

This would go back to at least "Johnny Armstrong's Last Goodnight", written 
maybe not that long after he was hanged by whichever James of Scotland was 
running the place in 1530.? And they crop up from I think the 17thC in 
English broadsides.? But Jack Sheppard's farewell is, I think, the first in 
cant, and influences the later "The Night Before Larry Was Stretched", the 
one which is always noticed.? Somewhere there's a reference to Larry being 
"sung to the tune of the hundreds of Drury," the first line of the Sheppard 
ballad.

(Though Larry raises yet *another issue, which possibly links to black 
American speech.? "De nite afore Larry was stretched / De boys dey all paid 
him a visit ..."? Deeply strange, and part of the pattern of all six of the 
Newgate-style ballads being sung in Dublin in the 1790s.? But nowhere else, 
as far as I can make out, is this particular way of transcribing Dublin 
speech of the time to be found.)

[Vidocq]

> At the same time, again, I'm not sure the master of crime is ALL that 
> reliable of a source. There's enough boasting and wild happenstance in 
> his autobiography to make one question just how much of his "criminal 
> background" is exaggeration. At least for me. Maybe scholars on the? field 
> have a different view, but I've always looked at Vidocq with? narrowed 
> eyes.

Oh agreed, I'm not sure just how far I'd trust Vidocq, even in the early 
books that he didn't disavow.? But regardless, Hugo and Balzac took him, if 
not at face value, at least as a source.? And he gets translated into 
English less than a year after the Memoirs come out in French, in 1829. 
Whereupon Doctor William Maginn tangentially gets into the act.

> At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by 
> magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a? short 
> section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's? "The 
> Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one? of the 
> few early sources on performance magic.

Hm ... I'd better have a look at that.? _The Art of Juggling or 
Legerdemaine_ (1612), possibly by Samuel Rowlands, I think deals with the 
overlap between card sharps and tricksters generally.

Robin 




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:40:00 +0100
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] was Polemic now dialect
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;??? Views"
??? <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <FEE785CAAE48411F914D866F43702A40@RobinLaptopPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
??? reply-type=response

Jason:

>> At the same time, a lot of this stuff was, I think, preserved by 
>> magicians. I think some of that comes from the fact that there is a 
>> short section on legerdemain in Reginald Scot's 1584 expose of fraud's 
>> "The Discoverie of Witchcraft" which, I think for a long time, was one 
>> of the few early sources on performance magic.
>
> Hm ... I'd better have a look at that.? _The Art of Juggling or 
> Legerdemaine_ (1612), possibly by Samuel Rowlands, I think deals with the 
> overlap between card sharps and tricksters generally.
>
> Robin

This has been tickling my brain since you mentioned it, as I thought there 
might be a connection.? There is.? Turns out Samuel Rid (not Rowlands) 
lifted most of his material in _The Art of Juggling_ from Reginald Scot. 
This is pointed out in Arthur F. Kinney's, _Rogues, Vagabonds, & sturdy 
beggars_ which reprints the Rid text: "[Scot] was copied word-for-word into 
much of this pamphlet." (p. 263).

? ? ? ? http://books.google.com/books?id=uRrXGUXmNm8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=rogues,+vagabonds+and+sturdy+beggars&lr=&ei=dBiqSt7WHZKUyQTWiJWKCg#v=onepage&q=rid&f=false

Bloody typical!

Robin





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 07:15:25 -0400
From: Jade Hudson <hudson.jade@gmail.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toxic Call for Submissions
To: british-irish-poets <BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@jiscmail.ac.uk>,
??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, poetics.list@gmail.com,
??? WRYTING-L@listserv.wvu.edu
Message-ID:
??? <943e8fc0909110415p602221c1ua0deb33bee893570@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Poets,
This is the first call for submissions to ToxicPoetry.com's second
exhibition. We are a newly established,? independent press for experimental,
international mp3 poetry. If you would like to submit, check our site for
instructions: http://site.toxicpoetry.com/Submissions.php Additionally, you
might want to check out our last exhibition. Here's a link:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/bc2498b9#/bc2498b9/1

We hope that those seeking publication for their experimental mp3 poetry
will considers us.

Happy Submissions.

Best,

Jade Hudson

ToxicPoetry Co-editor & Webmaster



Nathan Kinsman

ToxicPoetry Co-editor
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:16:37 -0400
From: jforjames@aol.com
Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Korean French Connection
To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <8CC0109FDC774A4-9910-ADC5@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2009/09/135_51667.html



French poet and critic Claude Mouchard did not recognize Korean literature until some Korean students in his class at Paris VIII University showed him a poem translated in French in 1997. 



Mouchard introduced the work, ``The Tomb at the Top'' by Cho Chong-kwon, in the 80th issue of the literary quarterly ``Po&sie'' (from the word ``poesie'' which means poetry in French), where he works as an editor. 



His journal featured the poetry of 12 Korean poets in the 1999 summer edition titled ``Poesie sud-coreens.'' It was the first time for the journal to exclusively focus on one country's poetry in depth.

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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23
******************************************
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From edmundhardy at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 19 08:11:10 2009
From: edmundhardy at hotmail.com (Edmund Hardy)
Date: Sat Sep 19 06:17:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Last Drop: Versions of August Stramm
In-Reply-To: <200909151600.n8FG03nB014938@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200909151600.n8FG03nB014938@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <COL102-W1477698AC4A5294BF6A9C3BADF0@phx.gbl>






 

12 versions
by Alistair Noon of poems by August Stramm, accompanied by an essay 'Blood, Flesh and a Packet
of Tissues: Putting August Stramm into English', from which these lines from Ernst Jandl serve as a summation:





he august stramm
abridged very
the
german poem



him august stramm
the first world war
abridged ?






 

Download the free ebook: 

http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2009/09/alistair-noons-last-drop-versions-of.html



?Intercapillary Editions?: lustre of the unsupportable 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 10:42:03 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 19 08:48:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Job opening at The Missouri Review
In-Reply-To: <4AB3E539.5040607@hfa.umass.edu>
References: <4AB3E539.5040607@hfa.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <8CC074E7C9202ED-14E0-200D@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com>

Job opening at The Missouri Review



*From:* litmagslji@yahoogroups.com [mailto:litmagslji@yahoogroups.com] 
On Behalf Of *Earl, Dedra S.
Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:41 PM
To:* litmagslji@yahoogroups.com
Subject:* [litmagslji] Missouri Review job opening
Hi Guys!
We wanted to let you know about a job opportunity at The Missouri 
eview. Our former managing editor, Richard Sowienski, accepted a 
enure-track position at another university so we need to hire a 
eplacement. I?m posting the description and application details. Feel 
ree to contact me if you have any additional questions.?Dedra Earl 
earld@missouri.edu <mailto:earld@missouri.edu>)
LECTURER/MANAGING EDITOR--Seeking a person with literary or other 
rofessional publication editing and management experience to assume the 
anaging Editor position at The Missouri Review, a not-for-profit 
iterary magazine based at the University of Missouri. This is a 
on-tenure track, 12-month academic position, reporting to the Editor in 
hief. Terminal degree required. Candidate must possess excellent 
ritten and verbal communication skills as well as strong project and 
taff management experience. Prefer an individual with budget 
evelopment and oversight experience, prior teaching experience, a broad 
nowledge of literature and literary publishing and experience working 
ffectively in diverse environments. Demonstrated success at securing 
rant funding and an entrepreneurial spirit considered a plus. Salary 
ommensurate with experience. Review of applications will begin October 
, 2009.
RESPO
NSIBILITIES
Shepherd 4 issues of The Missouri Review per year, print & digital 
ersions, through all phases of production.
Teach one course--Internship in Publishing--one semester per year and 
upervise/mentor interns throughout the year.
Will have administrative responsibility for daily office operations and 
taff supervision, including coordinating undergraduate and graduate 
tudents and volunteer editorial staff.
Will write, or collaborate in writing, annual proposals to NEA, state 
rts council and other granting entities as well as oversee all 
rant-funded activities. Should seek new grant sources as opportunities 
rise.
Working with a designated graduate assistant, will oversee audio/video 
roduction of issue contents, author readings and various other digital 
edia projects as well as annual writing and digital media competitions.
Serves as senior reader on manuscript submissions and will work with 
taff on circulation development, budgets, marketing and fundraising 
ctivities. May solicit authors/artists for editorial submissions.
Working closely with editor/director, will develop departmental policy 
nd administer said policies.
Responsible for negotiating contracts with authors, artists and other 
endors as needed.
Represent department at local and national industry-related 
onferences/events and other public relations duties as required.
*To apply:*
Send CV/resume, list of references, official transcripts and statement 
f editorial philosophy to:
Managing Editor Search
The Missouri Review
357 McReynolds Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65211
OR by=2
0e-mail to:
MorganR@missouri.edu <mailto:MorganR@missouri.edu> AND cc: 
arlD@missouri.edu <mailto:EarlD@missouri.edu>. Include *?Managing 
ditor Search?* in the subject line.
The University of Missouri is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action 
mployer. To request ADA accommodations, please contact Dedra Earl at 
573) 884-8851.
Dedra Earl
he Missouri Review
hone: 573-884-8851
ax: 573-884-4671

______________________________________________
fa-alum mailing list
fa-alum@english.umass.edu
ttps://list.umass.edu/mailman/listinfo/mfa-alum

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From jon at wordforword.info  Sat Sep 19 16:27:17 2009
From: jon at wordforword.info (Jonathan Minton)
Date: Sat Sep 19 14:33:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Word For/Word #15
Message-ID: <024a01ca3967$95a89ab0$c0f9d010$@info>

I?m pleased to announce that Word For/Word #15 is online at 

 

www.wordforword.info

 

with poetry and visuals by,

 

Cindy Savett, Brooklyn Copeland, Mg Roberts, Marthe Reed, Joshua Butts,
Marcia Arrieta, Nicole Zdeb, Julius Kalamarz, Trina Burke, Shelly Taylor,
Susan Slaviero, Matthew Klane, Trey Moody, Debra Kaufman, Elizabeth Zuba,
Francis Raven, John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes, Keith Nathan Brown, John Moore
Williams, Jeff Crouch, Diana Magall?n Mario Cervantes, Kristin Hayter Carol
Stetser, Andrew Topel K.S. Ernst, Sheila E. Murphy Irving Weiss, Peter
Schwartz, Ray Lam, and Nico Vassilakis,

 

plus essays, reviews, and a section on contemporary political poetry edited
by Tom Hibbard. 

 

Cheers!

Jonathan Minton

www.wordforword.info

 

+ + + +

 

?Manifesto for Ghosts,? by Susan Slaviero

 

What connects us is the mechanoid process, a feel for mathematica and
puppetry.

 

Bio(r)evolution is a viscous spider.

We sicken & weave in our cocoons.

 

Mutant. Erotica. Terror. These pixels are haunted. We are riblocked in this
circular citadel.  Some might say we are filaments, a spot on the macula,
synaptic disruption.

 

[No virus was ever this pretty.]

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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 17:00:02 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 19 15:06:20 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry out of print at Washington Post
Message-ID: <8CC07834A59A617-5238-4A7A@webmail-d040.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091703143.html
The Poetry Vanishing From the Print Post's Pages
Saturday, September 19, 2009 



Poets had gotten used to not being considered part of the "Arts" by The Post, e.g., the Sept. 13 Fall Arts Preview: Art -- Film -- Music -- Theater -- Dance. After all, we had the Literary Calendar on a Book World page and the marvelous Poet's Choice column: an actual poem in each Sunday's paper that acted as a small window into another way of seeing, amid the journalistic and opinion pieces. Now the stand-alone Book World is gone, and in its place are a few reviews in the Outlook section and a sadly foreshortened Literary Calendar. Poet's Choice is only on the Web, with a bare reference on Page B8. 

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 17:20:37 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat Sep 19 15:26:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Word For/Word #15
In-Reply-To: <024a01ca3967$95a89ab0$c0f9d010$@info>
References: <024a01ca3967$95a89ab0$c0f9d010$@info>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909191420o32540e9fle58cac68dd370b09@mail.gmail.com>

I first opened the following by Raven:
http://www.wordforword.info/vol15/Raven.htm

excellent!

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Jonathan Minton <jon@wordforword.info>wrote:

>  I?m pleased to announce that *Word For/Word* #15 is online at
>
>
>
> www.wordforword.info
>
>
>
> with poetry and visuals by,
>
>
>
> Cindy Savett, Brooklyn Copeland, Mg Roberts, Marthe Reed, Joshua Butts,
> Marcia Arrieta, Nicole Zdeb, Julius Kalamarz, Trina Burke, Shelly Taylor,
> Susan Slaviero, Matthew Klane, Trey Moody, Debra Kaufman, Elizabeth Zuba,
> Francis Raven, John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes, Keith Nathan Brown, John Moore
> Williams, Jeff Crouch, Diana Magall?n Mario Cervantes, Kristin Hayter Carol
> Stetser, Andrew Topel K.S. Ernst, Sheila E. Murphy Irving Weiss, Peter
> Schwartz, Ray Lam, and Nico Vassilakis,
>
>
>
> plus essays, reviews, and a section on contemporary political poetry edited
> by Tom Hibbard.
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Jonathan Minton
>
> www.wordforword.info
>
>
>
> + + + +
>
>
>
> *?Manifesto for Ghosts,? by Susan Slaviero*
>
>
>
> What connects us is the mechanoid process, a feel for mathematica and
> puppetry.
>
> * *
>
> *Bio(r)evolution is a viscous spider.*
>
> *We sicken & weave in our cocoons.*
>
>
>
> Mutant. Erotica. Terror. These pixels are haunted. We are riblocked in this
> circular citadel.  Some might say we are filaments, a spot on the macula,
> synaptic disruption.
>
>
>
> [No virus was ever this pretty.]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 13:05:58 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep 20 11:11:55 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Glamour
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909201005g4840710dwdfe2b05510f3b5dc@mail.gmail.com>

His father, James Wright, though a canonical American poet and, like his
son, a Pulitzer
Prize<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/pulitzer_prizes/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier>winner,
would probably be less frequently mentioned in reviews of the son?s
books if he weren?t so present, as absence, in the son?s poems. Franz Wright
is uningratiating, bumptiously witty, inexhaustibly joyless and routinely
surprising.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/20/books/review/Fried-t.html?_r=1



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 13:22:28 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep 20 11:28:33 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] 10 pages on Jung and much more on The New York Times
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909201022u237ccf96kd20b081a465fb917@mail.gmail.com>

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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 17:54:42 2009
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun Sep 20 16:00:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Incorporating a Poem by James Tate
Message-ID: <f160a1210909201454l325336derc3982a48022b037d@mail.gmail.com>

Sonnet Incorporating a Poem by James Tate

They didn't have much trouble teaching the ape
to write poems: first they strapped him into the chair,
then tied the pencil around his hand (the paper had already
been nailed down). Then Dr. Bluespire leaned over
his shoulder and whispered into his ear: "You look like
a god sitting there. Why don't you try writing something?"

The ape, deep in thought, swatted idly at his ear, thinking
Bluespire's buzzing was that of a mosquito. The pencil
he held seemed archaic, too crude an instrument for his
thoughts. Bluespire had always been a pest, wanting the ape
to do this and do that. Always jotting down notes, as though
anything he learned from his observations might somehow
advance his race, his species. As though humanity might
somehow be saved from its fate by just any old ape.



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
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From hudson.jade at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 12:51:08 2009
From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson)
Date: Mon Sep 21 10:56:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] ToxicPoetry Exhibition 2 SECOND CALL
Message-ID: <943e8fc0909210951x7927db7dr577606e5d587403b@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Poets,
>From the bottoms of our polluted hearts, we thank those who have willingly
gifted us with quality works. As for those who have not, we extend our
greatest of welcomes. Time to be considered for the second exhibition of
www.ToxicPoetry.com <http://www.toxicpoetry.com/> is fleeting (the deadline
is Sept. 28). For those of you who have not heard of our endeavor, we are a
press dedicated to publishing e-books, more *specifically*, cool
e-books  riddled
with exceptional experimental, international, mp3 poetry.
We make it a priority to treat artists as equals. Whether you are a well
known artist or a beginner, we guarantee we'll listen to every second of
what you send.

What are you waiting for? Pummel us with audacious audio!

Here's a link to our submission page:
http://site.toxicpoetry.com/Submissions.php
Or e-mail us at editors@toxicpoetry.com if you have questions.
ToxicToasts,
Jade Hudson - Co-editor & Webmaster
Nathan Kinsman- Co-editor
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 15:29:50 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep 21 13:35:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] For the many of us who live in Paris...
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909211229l3bbcb12cuadeeaea17fcfcfe2@mail.gmail.com>

 *Cause Announcement* from *Biblioth?ques Sans
Fronti?res<http://apps.facebook.com/causes/93503?m=b2495702>
*

Mercredi 7 octobre 2009 ? partir de 19h30
Le Grand Parquet, 21 rue du D?partement, 75018 Paris
M?tro La Chapelle

Showcase de Kristo Numpuby
Rencontre lecture avec Gaston Kelman
Diner camerounais offert

Pr?vente 20 euros - sur place: 25 euros
R?servations au 01.43.25.75.61 ou sur info@bibliosansfrontieres.org


Le CLAC est une biblioth?que/Centre culturel de r?f?rence ? Yaound?, cr?? il
y a deux ans. Dot? d?un fonds de 2000 ouvrages et d?une collection de DVD,
il favorise l?acc?s ? l?information et la lecture pour les jeunes de ce
quartier populaire.

Le CLAC, qui fonctionne depuis deux ans sans ressources financi?res
ext?rieures, s?est impos? comme une structure culturelle de premier plan ?
Yaound?.

Afin de l?appuyer dans cette dynamique, Biblioth?ques Sans Fronti?res monte
un programme de d?veloppement et de renforcement des comp?tences du CLAC.
L?extension de l?espace biblioth?que, la formation du personnel, la cr?ation
d?un espace multim?dia et d?un atelier reprographie doit permettre
d?am?liorer les services propos?s aux usagers, d?augmenter le nombre de
b?n?ficiaires du centre et de d?velopper de nouvelles sources de revenus qui
garantiront ? terme l?autonomie financi?re du CLAC.

Ce projet est soutenu par le Minist?re de la Culture et de la Communication
fran?ais.

Venez nombreux !

L'?quipe de Biblioth?ques Sans Fronti?res

View Announcement on
Facebook<http://apps.facebook.com/causes/posts/301300?m=b2495702>|
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a Comment <http://apps.facebook.com/causes/posts/301300?m=b2495702> | Go to
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Causes Address: PO Box 492, Berkeley, CA 94708 United States

Tip: Add "no-reply@causes.com" to your address book to make sure you don't
miss any opportunities to change the world.



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Sep 21 16:38:18 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep 21 14:44:16 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Summit in South Carolina
Message-ID: <8CC091295D1A2E0-2890-1563A@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.dailygamecock.com/the-mix/poetry-an-art-of-risk-taking-1.524088



Poetry an ?art of risk-taking?
Summit attracts both well-known, emerging writers 
By Sierra Kelly
The Daily Gamecock


Monday, September 21, 2009

?
Sierra Kelly/ The Daily Gamecock 

V

arying levels of poets, faculty and students came together to celebrate their art at the Poets Summit on Saturday. 
The sixth annual Poet?s Summit, held Saturday at the Columbia Museum of Art, rendered audiences inspired by the captivating poetry and the creative open-mic performances.


The event brought poets and the community together for an unforgettable day of literature.
Charlene Spearen, the associate director of SC Poetry Initiative, said Poet?s Summit was a visionary idea from Kwame Dawes, who first shared his idea with her when she was in graduate school.


?Kwame explained that South Carolina did not have a central core organization or any type of entity that could bring together those citizens in our state that are interested in poetry via writing poetry, via sharing news, putting into news about poetry,? Spearen said. ?It was through that seed that the Poetry Initiative began.?


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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 01:29:17 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon Sep 21 23:34:59 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch the video:
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909212229t51d22256k1f7a0715d496f759@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6208721/Sand-artist-Kseniya-Simonova-winner-of-Ukraines-Got-Talent-becomes-internet-hit.html

Sand artist Kseniya Simonova, winner of Ukraine's Got Talent, becomes
internet hit

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 22 10:40:29 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep 22 08:46:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch the video:
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909212229t51d22256k1f7a0715d496f759@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <587964.85498.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

That was pretty incredible, Anny!
Thanks for posting,
Amy

_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch the video:
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 1:29 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6208721/Sand-artist-Kseniya-Simonova-winner-of-Ukraines-Got-Talent-becomes-internet-hit.html


Sand artist Kseniya Simonova, winner of Ukraine's Got Talent, becomes internet hit

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html

I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



      
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 22 11:00:17 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue Sep 22 09:05:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Wilbur interview
Message-ID: <C6DE50B1.88E8%grahamd@ripon.edu>

        Latest interview at the "How a Poem Happens" blog is with Richard
Wilbur:


http://howapoemhappens.blogspot.com/

My favorite Wilburian moment:

     Q: Was this poem finished or abandoned?

     A:  Finished.

The archives are worth browsing, too:  previous interviews with many poets
well known & otherwise.
-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================



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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 22 11:53:48 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue Sep 22 10:01:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUB
Message-ID: <646282.83471.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUBFALL 2009Please mark your calendars!?+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Dates & readers:Oct 3: Zhang Er & Trey SagerZhang Er, born in Beijing, is the author of three collections of poetry in Chinese and six chapbooks in English translation. Her recent selected poems are?So Translating Rivers and Cities?and?Verses on Bird. She teaches at The Evergreen State College in Washington.?Trey Sager?is the author of?The Weeds, a collaboration with artist Munro Galloway, and?O New York. He is an assistant fiction editor at?Fence?magazine and runs the blog The Pudgie Report. Currently he is writing a book of autobiographical stories called?Oedipus Breast.Oct 10: Laura Moriarty & Paul Foster JohnsonLaura Moriarty?s?A Semblance: Selected & New Poetry 1975-2007?came out in 2007, as did the chapbook?An Air Force. Her long essay poem?A Tonalist?is forthcoming next spring. She has taught at Mills
 College and Naropa University among other places & is currently Deputy Director of Small Press Distribution.?Paul Foster Johnson?s first collection of poetry,?Refrains/Unworkings, was published in 2008. From 2003 to 2006, he curated the Experiments and Disorders reading series at Dixon Place. He is an editor at Litmus Press and currently lives in New York.Oct 17: Keith Waldrop & John KeeneKeith Waldrop?s most recent books are?Transcendental Studies,?Several Gravities, and?Baudelaire?s Paris Spleen. He teaches at Brown University and, with Rosemarie Waldrop, edits Burning Deck Press.?John Keene?is the author of?Annotations?and, with artist Christopher Stackhouse, the poetry collection?Seismosis. Honors include a 2005 Whiting Foundation Award in Fiction and Poetry. He is Associate Professor of English and African American Studies at Northwestern University.Oct 24: Catherine Wagner & Amy King -- this is the event that will be held at 310
 Bowery instead:Catherine Wagner?s new book,?My New Job, is forthcoming. She is also the author of?Macular Hole?and?Miss America.?Recent chapbooks include?Articulate How,?Hole in the Ground, and?Bornt. She is a faculty member in the MA program in creative writing at Miami University in Ohio.?Amy King?is the author of?I?m the Man Who Loves You,?Antidotes for an Alibi, and?The People Instruments. Forthcoming, Slaves to Do These Things and I Want to Make You Safe. ?Please visit http://amyking.org for more.Oct 31: Kim Lyons & James BelflowerKim Lyons? recent books of poetry are?Phototherapique?and?Saline. New work is in the magazines?Aufgabe?(including an essay on Bernadette Mayer?s work),?Effing, and?EOAGH.?She hosts the fall 2009 Zinc Bar reading series.?James Belflower?s first book of poems,?Commuter, is forthcoming in fall of 2009. He is the author of?And Also a Fountain, a collaborative e-chap with Anne Heide and J.
 Michael Martinez. He curates?potlatchpoetry.org, a website dedicated to the gifting and exchange of poetry resources.Nov 7: Mary Burger & Stefani BarberMary Burger?s books include?A Partial Handbook for Navigators?and?Sonny. A collection of prose works,?Then Go On, is forthcoming. She lives in Oakland and studies landscape architecture.?Stefani Barber?is the author of?Non Eligible Respondent?and her work has appeared in various journals and anthologies, including?Tripwire,?Kenning, and?Step into a World: A Global Anthology of New Black Literature. She is currently an associate producer at Dateline NBC.Nov 14: Laura Elrick & Jesse SeldessLaura Elrick?is the author of the books?sKincerity?and?Fantasies in Permeable Structures. Audio pieces and the video-poem ?Stalk? can be accessed online at Pennsound. She currently lives and works in Brooklyn.?Jesse Seldess?is the author of?Who Opens. Jesse lives with his wife, the artist Leonie
 Weber, in Karlsruhe, Germany, where he continues to edit?Antennae, a journal of experimental writing and language-based music and performance scores.Nov 21: Evelyn Reilly & Cathy EisenhowerEvelyn Reilly?s most recent book is?Styrofoam. She is currently working on?Material Science, an exploration of the language of siteless architectural forms. Other works include?Fervent Remnants of Reflective Surfaces?and?Hiatus.?Cathy Eisenhower?lives and works in Washington, D.C. She is the author of?clearing without reversal?and?would with and.. She is translating the selected poems of Argentine poet Diana Bellessi and is an editor of the forthcoming journal?Women in and Beyond the Global.All readings* take place at:?Bowery Poetry Club308 BoweryNew York, New York 10012Ph: 212-614-0505Price: 6 dollars
Event days/times: Saturdays, 4-6 pm?
*Except for the reading on Saturday, Oct 24, which will take place at 310 Bowery instead.?




_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.


      
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From seamascain at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 12:14:20 2009
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Tue Sep 22 10:19:58 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy & Debate
Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40909220914v23710e02l7eae25be74573282@mail.gmail.com>

_______________


On Tuesday, September 22, 2009, IMRAM, the annual Irish-language
literary festival, will present an evening of controversy & debate on
the issue of "Tradition and/or Innovation."

This debate will take place at 7:00 p.m. in the Irish Writers' Centre,
19 Parnell Square in Dublin, Ireland.  Admission is free.

PUBLIC LECTURE & DEBATE

Does the Irish language have a modern literary culture?  Or, have
universities limited literary discussion to folkloric texts that have
little to say to urban readers?  Can poetry & literature in Irish
survive if the rural Gaeltacht dies?  Can a modern literary culture
emerge from an urban creolized form of Irish?

Has the Irish-language become the prisoner of sociologists,
anthropologists, government bureaucrats & educators who have
constricted & suffocated the possibilities to such an extent that the
very survival of the language itself has been called into question?

Will literary innovation ever be tolerated in Ireland?

These are the questions that Tom?s Mac S?om?in raises in his IMRAM
talk, "An D?chas agus an Nua" (Tradition & Innovation).  D?ith? ?
h?g?in, Professor of Folklore at University College Dublin, will reply
to the lecture, & IMRAM invites all with a serious interest in Irish
poetry & literature to join in this crucial debate.

Tuesday,
22 September 2009,
7:00 p.m.,
IRISH WRITERS' CENTRE,
19 Parnell Square,
Dublin, Ireland

Free admission

For additional information about the IMRAM Festival, go to ...

http://www.poetryireland.ie/whats-on/imram.html

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-IRISH-LANGUAGE-LITERATURE-FESTIVAL

http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMRAM-FEILE-LITRIOCHTA-GAEILGE

Questions may be put to
Liam Carson, Director of
IMRAM Festival at ...

liamog62@mac.com

Books featured at
the IMRAM Festival
may be purchased
from ...

Connolly Books,
connollybooks@eircom.net
43 East Essex Street,
Dublin 2, Ireland

beir bua,

S?amas Cain
http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain
http://alazanto.org/seamascain

_______________

From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 20:09:00 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 22 18:14:50 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur fellowship for McHugh
Message-ID: <8CC09F92FEA9879-1658-BE6B@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113081143

September 22, 2009 


Poet Heather McHugh mines words for contradictions and double meanings, offering the reader an expansive, fresh perspective on themes like love and mortality. 



McHugh was recently rewarded a MacArthur fellowship for her efforts. The so-called genius grant comes with a $500,000 honorarium, which, the poet says, she will use to pay more attention to her work.


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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 20:11:45 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 22 18:17:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2009
Message-ID: <8CC09F991DD95DF-1658-BEE5@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com>


http://shelf-life.ew.com/2009/09/22/the-best-american-poetry-2009/

That editor (in this case, David Wagoner; in previous years, everyone from John Ashbery to Rita Dove) provides an essay that explains the reasoning that went behind his or her selections. The series editor, poet David Lehman, also always adds his valuable two cents, usually dilating upon the state of poetry in the culture. In The Best American Poetry 2009, Lehman discusses the use of poetry in the previous season of Mad Men (did you know Don Draper?s reading habits caused an upsurge in sales for the poetry of Frank O?Hara?).



But Lehman?s particular theme this year is the state of poetry criticism, and he doesn?t hold back: ?Poetry criticism at its worst today,? Lehman asserts, ?is mean in spirit and spiteful in intent,? and he goes on from there to apply an especially vigorous flogging to the critic William Logan, who is sort of the Louis C.K. of poetry criticism, and who has written, for example, that reading the work of C.K. Williams is ?like watching a dog eat its own vomit.?
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 20:16:49 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 22 18:22:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: About Quotations: Poetry
In-Reply-To: <16.3B.24541.38229BA4@service05>
References: <16.3B.24541.38229BA4@service05>
Message-ID: <8CC09FA472A5BC9-1658-BFE0@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com>

http://quotations.about.com/cs/moretypes/a/bls_poetry.htm?nl=1


-----Original Message-----
From: Simran Khurana - About.com Quotations Guide <newsletters@about.com>
To: jforjames@aol.com
Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 4:14 pm
Subject: About Quotations: Poetry










 

?? Quotations 











In the Spotlight | More Topics | 







?

from Simran Khurana 
Poetry resonates with expression. It is a medium to explore the diversity of language and culture. Great poets like Keats, Emerson, and Emily Dickinson influenced society with their passionate poetry. Even today, these poets inspire us. Get into the minds of famous poets with these quotes.









?
In the Spotlight 











Poetry Quotes 
Poets carve an image with words. Here is a collection of quotes from many famous poets. Feel the emotion contained in the words; and your heart will yearn for more.

? 





???



?????? More Topics 





Oscar Wilde 
The Wild Side of Oscar Wilde 

Elizabeth Barrett Browning 
Power Packed Quotes 

Robert Frost 
A Breath of Fresh Air 

Ralph Waldo Emerson 
Short and Sufficient 

Alexander Pope 
The Articulate Quote-Maker 

Ovid 
The Romantic Roman 

Emily Dickinson 
Enigmatic Emily Dickinson 









Edgar Allan Poe 
Edgar Allen Poe described poetry as, "I would define, in brief, the poetry of words as the rhythmical creation of beauty. Its sole arbiter is taste."=2
0His words ring true as you read each of his famous quotes.

? 



Victor Hugo 
French poet Victor Hugo shot to fame with his poetry collection Odes et Ballades. The multi talented Victor Hugo also wrote classics like Les Miserables and The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

? 







?
Sponsored Links 















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From seamascain at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 13:09:03 2009
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Wed Sep 23 11:14:35 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] ... the poetry of pneumatic drills
Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40909231009p6b065aadw827065d449ce66ec@mail.gmail.com>

_______________


On Saturday the 26th of September 2009, at 7:30 p.m., in the
Centre for Contemporary Arts, 350 Sauchiehall Street in Glasgow, Scotland ...

Ce?l 'S Craic will present an evening of words & music.

Poetry from Maoilios Caimbeul, Mark Goodwin, M?ire Holmes & Aifric MacAodha ...

Also Margaret Callan & Alasdair C. Whyte ...

plus traditional Music & Song, & a

C?ilidh with the Pneumatic Drills!

For more information write to

michelle.ceol@googlemail.com

This event is sponsored by

Comhairle nan Leabhraichean

(the Gaelic Books Council) as part of

the Cuairt nam B?rd 2009 festival!

Admission is ?8 (?5) ...

For more information about the

Centre for Contemporary Arts,

go to ...

http://cca-glasgow.com/home

For more information about

Comhairle nan Leabhraichean

(the Gaelic Books Council)

go to ...

https://lsh507.securepod.com/gaelicbooks.org/merchantmanager/

Ch? sinn ann thu!

S?amas Cain
http://www.saorsainn.net

_______________

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 14:40:22 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 23 12:45:48 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: About Quotations: Poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CC09FA472A5BC9-1658-BFE0@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com>
References: <16.3B.24541.38229BA4@service05>
	<8CC09FA472A5BC9-1658-BFE0@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909231140q1c8124bl42a7f396de363091@mail.gmail.com>

*Edgar Allan Poe *
I would define, in brief, the Poetry of words as the Rhythmical Creation of
Beauty. Its sole arbiter is Taste.

*Robert Browning *
God is the perfect poet, Who in his person acts his own creations.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:16 AM, <jforjames@aol.com> wrote:

> http://quotations.about.com/cs/moretypes/a/bls_poetry.htm?nl=1
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simran Khurana - About.com Quotations Guide <newsletters@about.com>
> To: jforjames@aol.com
> Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 4:14 pm
> Subject: About Quotations: Poetry
>
>     [image: About.com] <http://www.about.com/>    *Quotations *   *In the
> Spotlight <http://webmail.aol.com/28200/aol/en-us/Suite.aspx#a> *| *More
> Topics <http://webmail.aol.com/28200/aol/en-us/Suite.aspx#c> *| *<http://webmail.aol.com/28200/aol/en-us/Suite.aspx#e>
> *    from *Simran Khurana*
> Poetry resonates with expression. It is a medium to explore the diversity
> of language and culture. Great poets like Keats, Emerson, and Emily
> Dickinson influenced society with their passionate poetry. Even today, these
> poets inspire us. Get into the minds of famous poets with these quotes.
>
>
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-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 16:41:46 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 23 14:47:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] I and Thou: The Book as Community: The 15th Annual New
	Jersey Book Arts Symposium November 6, 2009
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909231341i6e6f6a74g14e1017bc497822f@mail.gmail.com>

I and Thou: The Book as Community: The 15th Annual New Jersey Book Arts
Symposium November 6, 2009

In Ich und Du, usually translated as I and Thou, Martin Buber famously
proposed that people address existence in two ways: that of the "I" towards
an "It", towards an object that is separate in itself, which we either use
or experience; and that of the ?I? towards ?Thou?, in which we move into
existence in a relationship without bounds. One of Buber?s major themes is
that human life finds its meaningfulness in relationships. All of our
relationships, Buber contends, bring us ultimately into relationship with
God, who is the Eternal Thou.

Taking inspiration from Martin Buber, the theme of the 2009 Book Arts
Symposium will be the idea of the book as community. While bracketing the
transcendent signifier (though not overlooking the fact that The Book has a
long history of symbolizing Divine agency in many religions), I and Thou:
The Book as Community will look at how books, book-making, and book-art help
to find/found meaningfulness in relationships, or how the ?it? of the book
and the ritualized book-making process inspire and support inter-personal
relationships that transcend simplistic, functionally or ideologically based
social determination.

Symposium ?09, ?I and Thou: The Book as Community,? will look at three
categories of interaction between book and community. While articulated
separately, these categories are dynamic, reflexive and inter-dependent.

The first category is defined by interactions between book-makers /
book-making / book-art and pre-defined communities. ?I and Thou? will
explore how social identities are valorized through book-art. One important
aspect of this category is how the concerns of community, and perhaps the
implicit pull toward the ?boundlessness? Buber describes, influence and
condition the work of artists.

The second category is defined by the relationship of work and culture
within self-selected book-worker communities, or among groups of individuals
who make books or book-art. We will focalize this category through New
Jersey communities, The Women?s Studio Workshop, The Printmaking Council of
New Jersey and The Book Arts Roundtable.
The third category will consider the international network of book artists
as an instance of what anthropologist, Victor Turner, famously defined as a
?communitas?: an unstructured community where all members are equal and in
which there abides an intense community spirit, the feeling of great social
equality, solidarity, and togetherness. Since ?I and Thou? is the fifteenth
annual meeting of the New Jersey Book Arts Symposium, itself a highly
collaborative phenomenon, the event will model
collaborative/interactive/communal creativity.

Presenters and Panelists
Sarah Stengle, Karen Guancione, Tiffany Ludwig, Renee Piechocki, Warren
Lehrer, Judith Sloan, Margot Lovejoy, Ken Montgomery, Esther Smith, Ann
Kalmbach, Tatana Kellner, Karen McDermott, Linda Helm Krapf, Judith K.
Brodsky, Amanda Thackray

Tentative Schedule
8:40: Workshop: Sarah Stengle will teach attendees how to construct a
kaleidocycle
Kaleidocycles are unique faceted objects that rotate inward on themselves
presenting sequential hexagonal pages.? Artist Sarah Stengle will teach a
workshop on how to design your own, with image and text, from a single
rectangle of heavy paper. They can be folded and assembled in a matter of
minutes - if one is willing to resort to scotch tape. Assembling
kaleidocycles with PVA glue and hidden tabs requires a bit of planning and
finesse, and the workshop will conclude with tips and techniques for
producing a more enduring and aesthetic project. The basic pattern appears
in Doris Schattschneider?s book Kaleidocycles.

9:30: Welcome: Mark Winston, Assistant Chancellor and Director,
Newark-Rutgers University

9:40: Introduction: Karen Guancione will introduce the Symposium theme and
discuss her ongoing project in the cultural center in Patzuaro, Mexico

Artists Presentations: 10:00-12:00
Two Girls Working: Tiffany Ludwig and Renee Piechocki: collaboratively
explore issues of female cultural construction. Their "Trappings" project
openly explored the relationship of women to power within the construction
of personal identity. Trappings: Stories of Women, Power and Clothing was
published by Rutgers University Press in October 2007;
Margot Lovejoy: has developed interactive community projects for decades
(including ?Turns? which was featured in the Whitney Biennial and most
recently ?Confess?);
Ken Montgomery: is a multi-disciplinary artist who has created ?The Ministry
of Lamination? (?a private Soundation created in 1994 to celebrate
creativity by supporting dedicated cultural workers playing in the marginal
fringe sound art noise field?).
Warren Lehrer and Judith Sloan: creators of ?Crossing the Blvd,? which tells
the stories of recent immigrants ?strangers, neighbors, and aliens in a new
America.?

12:00-2:00 Lunch

1:00 Lunch seminar (Esther Smith / The Paper Bride)

The Paper Bride: Wedding DIY from Pop-the-Question to Tie-The-Knot and
Happily-Ever-After is the third book in Esther K Smith?s series for Random
House imprint, Potter Craft. Illustrated by book artist Liz Zanis, the book
features Purgatory Pie Press founder Dikko Faust?s handset typography,
projects made by Stephanie Brody Letterman, Bryan Baker, and Susan
Happersett, and Esther and Dikko?s 1980 wedding photos by book arts legend,
Richard Minsky. The Symposium will get a sneak preview of the book to be
released in 2010 and see letterpress originals that went into its design.

2:00: Open Mike (forum for announcements)

2:15 - 3:30: Panel (New Jersey Book Artists Communities)

Tatana Kellner, Ann Kalmbach: Women?s Studio Workshop,
Karen McDermott: Book Arts Roundtable
Linda Helm Krapf: Printmaking Council of New Jersey

Judith K. Brodsky (Summation)
3:30 Exhibition: ?I and Thou? Opening: Amanda Thackray, curator

3:30: Book Artists Jam
**********************************************************************************
Information:
The New Jersey Book Arts Symposium is held annually at the John Cotton Dana
Library on the campus of Rutgers University, Newark. Admissions is limited
so it is wise to call ahead to make a reservation. The cost of admission is
$45 for the general public, $15 for Rutgers staff. The cost of admission
entitles you to attend morning and afternoon sessions, to participate in the
workshop, and the book artists? jam, and to a quite spectacular lunch at
Stonsby Commons.
Rutgers students are admitted to all book arts activities free of charge.
To make reservations, please call Chris Ingram at 973 353-5222; or write to
her at cingram@andromeda.rutgers.edu
For further information about the Symposium, contact Michael Joseph at
mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 20:59:15 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Wed Sep 23 19:04:41 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] I and Thou: The Book as Community: The 15th Annual 
	New Jersey Book Arts Symposium November 6, 2009
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909231341i6e6f6a74g14e1017bc497822f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909231341i6e6f6a74g14e1017bc497822f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909231759v63cea91ft2d55d1a0da8e820d@mail.gmail.com>

I was especially struck by this; in paper craft (free online at
moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html), there's a paper fortune teller (aka cootie
catcher); but I'd love to try this!
Kaleidocycles are unique faceted objects that rotate inward on themselves
presenting sequential hexagonal pages.? Artist Sarah Stengle will teach a
workshop on how to design your own, with image and text, from a single
rectangle of heavy paper. They can be folded and assembled in a matter of
minutes - if one is willing to resort to scotch tape. Assembling
kaleidocycles with PVA glue and hidden tabs requires a bit of planning and
finesse, and the workshop will conclude with tips and techniques for
producing a more enduring and aesthetic project. The basic pattern appears
in Doris Schattschneider?s book Kaleidocycles.

-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 06:04:39 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep 24 04:10:00 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] I and Thou: The Book as Community: The 15th Annual 
	New Jersey Book Arts Symposium November 6, 2009
In-Reply-To: <f3cd389f0909231759v63cea91ft2d55d1a0da8e820d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909231341i6e6f6a74g14e1017bc497822f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f3cd389f0909231759v63cea91ft2d55d1a0da8e820d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909240304w9aed7bci2e2aa1749d71c297@mail.gmail.com>

A very interesting poem. I would like to quote:

free adj. Not imprisoned, not under
tion; able to choose v. To give free
to; to unlock or disentangle to give
freedom n. The condition
being free; political
lancer n. One

Fortune Teller, from Paper Craft by Catherine Daly


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Catherine Daly <c.a.b.daly@gmail.com>wrote:

> I was especially struck by this; in paper craft (free online at
> moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html), there's a paper fortune teller (aka cootie
> catcher); but I'd love to try this!
> Kaleidocycles are unique faceted objects that rotate inward on themselves
> presenting sequential hexagonal pages.? Artist Sarah Stengle will teach a
> workshop on how to design your own, with image and text, from a single
> rectangle of heavy paper. They can be folded and assembled in a matter of
> minutes - if one is willing to resort to scotch tape. Assembling
> kaleidocycles with PVA glue and hidden tabs requires a bit of planning and
> finesse, and the workshop will conclude with tips and techniques for
> producing a more enduring and aesthetic project. The basic pattern appears
> in Doris Schattschneider?s book Kaleidocycles.
>
> --
> All best,
> Catherine Daly
> c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 12:19:38 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (anny.ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep 24 10:24:56 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Waging Peace
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909240919h3dd5cf85g72bd585877a6c491@mail.gmail.com>

http://voiceseducation.org/content/waging-peace



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 14:28:50 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu Sep 24 12:34:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free Poetry Books
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909241128q843c03as92ca604d5132762b@mail.gmail.com>

http://newpagesblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/free-poetry-books.html

on NewPages Blog

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 15:18:57 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu Sep 24 13:24:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free Poetry Books
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909241128q843c03as92ca604d5132762b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909241128q843c03as92ca604d5132762b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60909241218o41978a43v9ab5ba55d6b35a40@mail.gmail.com>

Hal should tell this guy about Vida Loca books.
- a Vida Loca poet

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com
> wrote:

> http://newpagesblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/free-poetry-books.html
>
> on NewPages Blog
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf
http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/
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From junction at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 24 17:13:04 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Thu Sep 24 15:18:37 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] query
Message-ID: <E1Mqvcw-0006Jf-Mj@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Anyone know the source for Groucho's famous declaration "I would not 
join any club that would have someone like me for a member?"

Best,

Mark

From amanda at surkont.com  Thu Sep 24 19:13:36 2009
From: amanda at surkont.com (Amanda Surkont)
Date: Thu Sep 24 17:25:31 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free Poetry Books
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909241128q843c03as92ca604d5132762b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <461526.6279.qm@web1203.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://www.origamipoems.com/another... .

--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini@gmail.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free Poetry Books
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 2:28 PM

http://newpagesblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/free-poetry-books.html

on NewPages Blog

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html

I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 20:09:01 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 24 18:14:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	Fwd: UC Press eNews for J Finnegan - September 23, 2009
In-Reply-To: <0.0.0.A1F.1CA3C9B8CAFC0AA.0@tnews-cxvi.tailorednews.com>
References: <0.0.0.A1F.1CA3C9B8CAFC0AA.0@tnews-cxvi.tailorednews.com>
Message-ID: <8CC0B8B855E3AA2-3180-20587@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: UC Press eNews <enews@enews.ucpress.edu>
To: J Finnegan <jforjames@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 23, 2009 6:16 pm
Subject: UC Press eNews for J Finnegan - September 23, 2009


































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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 20:12:39 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 24 18:18:01 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] new digs for Poets House
Message-ID: <8CC0B8C06FD070A-3180-2061D@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/books/25poetry.html?hpw



In its new location Poets House has a rent-free lease through 2069 from the Battery Park City Authority. Poets House raised the money for construction of the interior, $11 million, from public and private sources, including $3.5 million from the city. 



?There has been an upswing in the appetite for poetry,? said Kate D. Levin, New York City?s cultural affairs commissioner. With the advent of poetry slams and spoken-word events, she added, poetry has ?moved away from an association with a rarefied crowd to a more populist world and the Poets House folks are tapped into that.? Poets House is among the first cultural organizations to open downtown since 9/11. 




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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 24 20:33:58 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu Sep 24 18:39:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: query 
In-Reply-To: <E1Mqvcw-0006Jf-Mj@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1Mqvcw-0006Jf-Mj@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01E6A5DE-FA50-4B4D-96B2-A14ACEC168BD@ripon.edu>

I don't have a definitive answer, but Wikiquote has the following  
entry on this item:

I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T  
WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".
Telegram to the Friar's Club of Beverly Hills to which he belonged, as  
recounted in Groucho and Me (1959), p. 321
[Variant:] "Please accept my resignation. I don?t care to belong to  
any club that will have me as a member".
As quoted in The Groucho Letters (1967) by Arthur Sheekman. The  
sentiment predates Groucho, however; it likely originated with John  
Galsworthy, The Forsyte Saga, chapter II: Old Jolyon is said to  
despise the club that took him as a member after another refused him  
because he was in trade.

So I suppose that the book Groucho & Me could be checked, anyway. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 24, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Mark Weiss wrote:

> Anyone know the source for Groucho's famous declaration "I would not  
> join any club that would have someone like me for a member?"
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From junction at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 25 00:54:18 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Thu Sep 24 22:59:50 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: query 
In-Reply-To: <01E6A5DE-FA50-4B4D-96B2-A14ACEC168BD@ripon.edu>
References: <E1Mqvcw-0006Jf-Mj@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<01E6A5DE-FA50-4B4D-96B2-A14ACEC168BD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <E1Mr2pL-0000eZ-10@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ta, David.

At 08:33 PM 9/24/2009, you wrote:
>I don't have a definitive answer, but Wikiquote has the following 
>entry on this item:
>
>    * I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. 
> I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME 
> AS A MEMBER".
>        * Telegram to the 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friars_Club_of_Beverly_Hills>Friar's 
> Club of Beverly Hills to which he belonged, as recounted in Groucho 
> and Me (1959), p. 321
>    * [Variant:] "Please accept my resignation. I don't care to 
> belong to any club that will have me as a member".
>        * As quoted in The Groucho Letters (1967) by Arthur 
> Sheekman. The sentiment predates Groucho, however; it likely 
> originated with John Galsworthy, The Forsyte Saga, chapter II: Old 
> Jolyon is said to despise the club that took him as a member after 
> another refused him because he was in trade.
>
>So I suppose that the book Groucho & Me could be checked, anyway. . . .
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
><mailto:grahamd@ripon.edu>grahamd@ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
><http://web.me.com/drjazz>http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
>Poetry Library:
><http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>==========================================
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 24, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>>Anyone know the source for Groucho's famous declaration "I would 
>>not join any club that would have someone like me for a member?"
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 03:09:28 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 25 01:14:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] vispo as a consequence of textpo
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909250009i1ece65f3wf69587d251b02ba9@mail.gmail.com>

http://wordforword.info/vol15/Vassilakis.htm

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 11:21:53 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 25 09:29:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Today's Almanac
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909250821u577d6be5sf26d3a0a3cf8c42d@mail.gmail.com>

 Once in a While

by Mark Perlberg<http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,ictg,dv,afoy,39gg,3hrs,fxvj>

Mother was agitated all morning.
A call had come from her brother Harold,
who was spoken of only in whispers
and despised by those with a talent
for never changing their minds.
But Mother loved him.

Somehow I learned that my uncle
had forged checks and spent time in prison.
And I knew he played the saxophone
in small jazz bands.

In late afternoon the doorbell rang.

My uncle stood in the hall.
A tall man slightly stooped, he shook snow
from his long brown overcoat. He had a high
hooked nose and wavy brown hair
that fell across his forehead,
and he carried packages wrapped in Christmas paper.

My stepfather signaled: disappear.

In early evening Uncle Harold
knocked on my door with a gift for me:
jazz records, the first I'd seen.

Fats Waller beaming from the album cover
is clearer to me now than my uncle's face.
"I can't give you anything but love, baby."

A mourning sax backing Lee Wiley:
"Once in a while, will you give just
one little thought to me?"

At first light my uncle was gone,
His footprints vanishing in a fresh fall of snow.

"Once in a While" by Mark Perlberg, from *Waiting for the Alchemist*. ?
Louisiana State University Press, 2009. Reprinted with permission.
(buy now<http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,ictg,dv,lo46,it3p,3hrs,fxvj>)






-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Sep 25 16:15:44 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Fri Sep 25 14:21:21 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] he didn't really get poetry
Message-ID: <8CC0C3418846CC3-18C8-73FC@webmail-m076.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2009/sep/25/poetry-nicholson-baker-adam-foulds



At a recent event at the South Bank, Kazuo Ishiguro confessed to a packed audience that he didn't really get poetry. I couldn't help but nod along with a vague sense of relief and sadness. Relief because I felt exactly the same way, and sadness because that wasn't always the case. In my late teens and very early 20s I read little but poetry, yet over the succeeding 12 years I've only read one collection ? WG Sebald's For Years Now ? in its entirety, and that was more a case of completism than appreciation of sparse, blank verse. 

However, just a few weeks ago, a sequence of unrelated events sent me seeking out those thin collections gathering dust on the bottom shelves of my bookcases, cracking their meagre spines to see what I'd been missing. After all those years, I'd begun to get poetry again.
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 16:19:32 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri Sep 25 14:24:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Doctorow's quotes
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909251319h1f6deb5dkfa026fa997d9b5bc@mail.gmail.com>

"Writing is a socially acceptable form of schizophrenia."
E.L. Doctorow

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/12584.E_L_Doctorow

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 04:20:39 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat Sep 26 02:25:39 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Piano Street's Classical Piano Blog
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909260120u25720e47v914674ea5ef89b59@mail.gmail.com>

Chinese pianist, 22-year-old Yuja Wang thrilled international audiences with
her opening performance alongside conductor Claudio Abbado at the Lucerne
Festival on August 12.

*Unique Webcast from Lucerne in August 2009: *
 http://www.medici.tv/#/performance/613/ (free sign up)

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Sep 26 12:46:43 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 26 10:51:50 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chicago School
Message-ID: <8CC0CE00FE2BBF2-4890-E3B8@webmail-m036.sysops.aol.com>


Several bloggers posit (& debate the provenance and aptness?of) the label: New Chicago School...

http://www.digitalemunction.com/2009/09/08/guest-post-the-new-chicago-school-of-poetry-by-kent-johnson/#more-2860



http://samizdatblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/new-chicago-school.html



http://www.irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/



http://adamfieled.blogspot.com/2009/09/kent-johnsons-very-familiar-proposal.html
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Sep 26 14:17:21 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 26 12:22:34 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia
Message-ID: <8CC0CECB9577BCC-4890-EC9A@webmail-m036.sysops.aol.com>



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113161603

--

Love Among the?Ruins

Robert?Browning

I.

Where the quiet-coloured end of evening smiles,
Miles and miles
On the solitary pastures where our sheep
Half-asleep
Tinkle homeward thro' the twilight, stray or stop
As they crop--
Was the site once of a city great and gay,
(So they say)
Of our country's very capital, its prince
Ages since
Held his court in, gathered councils, wielding far
Peace or war.

II.
Now,--the country does not even boast a tree,
As you see,
To distinguish slopes of verdure, certain rills
>From the hills
Intersect and give a name to, (else they run
Into one)
Where the domed and daring palace shot its spires
Up like fires
O'er the hundred-gated circuit of a wall
Bounding all,
Made of marble, men might march on nor be pressed,
Twelve abreast.

III.
And such plenty and perfection, see, of grass
Never was!
Such a carpet as, this summer-time, o'erspreads
And embeds
Every vestige of the city, guessed alone,
Stock or stone--
Where a multitude of men breathed joy and woe
Long ago;
Lust of glory pricked their hearts up, dread of shame
Struck them tame;
And that glory and that shame alike, the gold
Bought and sold.

IV.
Now,--the single little turret that remains
On the plains,
By the caper overrooted, by the gourd
Overscored,
While the patching houseleek's head of blossom winks
Through the chinks--
Marks the basement whence a tower in ancient time
Sprang sublime,
And a burning ring, all round, the chariots traced
As they raced,
And the monarch and his minions and his dames
Viewed the games.

V.
And I know, while thus the quiet-coloured eve
Smiles to leave
To their folding, all our many-tinkling fleece
In such peace,
And the slopes and rills in undistinguished grey
Melt away--
That a girl with eager eyes and yellow hair
Waits me there
In the turret whence the charioteers caught soul
For the goal,
When the king looked, where she looks now, breathless, dumb
Till I come.

VI.
But he looked upon the city, every side,
Far and wide,
All the mountains topped with temples, all the glades'
Colonnades,
All the causeys, bridges, aqueducts,--and then,
All the men!
When I do come, she will speak not, she will stand,
Either hand
On my shoulder, give her eyes the first embrace
Of my face,
Ere we rush, ere we extinguish sight and speech
Each on each.

VII.
In one year they sent a million fighters forth
South and North,
And they built their gods a brazen pillar high
As the sky,
Yet reserved a thousand chariots in full force--
Gold, of course.
Oh heart! oh blood that freezes, blood that burns!
Earth's returns
For whole centuries of folly, noise and sin!
Shut them in,
With their triumphs and their glories and the rest!
Love is best.



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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 15:17:36 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:22:23 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Smoking Poet
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909271217l86957bfi66bb6e6953f694d@mail.gmail.com>

Zinta Aistars sent a message to the members of THE SMOKING POET.

--------------------
Subject: Call for Submissions (Winter 2009-2010 Issue) and the Discussion Board

THE SMOKING POET: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS ? WINTER 2009-2010

http://www.facebook.com/l/71476;thesmokingpoet.net/

THE SMOKING POET publishes flash fiction; fiction; nonfiction; poetry;
feature author; feature poet; book and cigar reviews. We publish work
that ignites our imagination, inflames our passion, leaves us with a
smoky aftertaste. The Smoking Poet also shares an extensive list of
links and resources for writers and the cigar aficionado.

Submissions open year round. Send with category in subject line:
poetry to Zinta Aistars; fiction/non-fiction and cigar reviews to J.
Conrad Guest. Suggestions for ?A Good Cause? to Lorena Audra Rutens, A
Good Cause editor. For book reviews, please query first.

For full submission guidelines and contact information, visit:

http://www.facebook.com/l/71476;thesmokingpoet.net/

Winter 2009-2010 Issue Deadline: November 30, 2009

Please send your submission to thesmokingpoet@gmail.com . We look
forward to reading your best work!

Meanwhile ?

On The Smoking Poet discussion board: ?Can a Book Move You to Action??

Can a book move you to action? Has reading a book ever made you jump
up from your comfortable old armchair and act upon what you have just
read? Maybe it was an exceptionally good book. It could have just as
easily have been an exceptionally vile book. Maybe your action was
good ... or not so good. Share your own story of when the pen, the
keystroke, was indeed so mighty that it got you thinking, got you
moving.

Post your response here:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=11982&uid=6062444980



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 15:20:28 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:25:15 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Almanac
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909271220p14520416rf54d61a4c4504333@mail.gmail.com>

 The Wild Swans At Coole

by William Butler
Yeats<http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,3eb5,htn1,3hrs,fxvj>

The trees are in their autumn beauty,
The woodlands paths are dry,
Under the October twilight the water
Mirrors a still sky;
Upon the brimming water among the stones
Are nine-and-fifty swans.

The nineteenth autumn has come upon me
Since I first made my count;
I saw, before I had well finished,
All suddenly mount
And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
Upon their clamorous wings.

I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
And now my heart is sore.
All's changed since I, hearing at twilight,
The first time on this shore
The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
Trod with a lighter tread.

Unwearied still, lover by lover,
They paddle in the cold
Companionable streams or climb the air;
Their hearts have not grown old;
Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
Attend upon them still.

But now they drift on the still water,
Mysterious, beautiful;
Among what rushes will they build,
By what lake's edge or pool
Delight men's eyes when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?

"The Wild Swans at Coole" by W.B. Yeats, from *Collected Poems*. Public
domain. (buy now<http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,e0lv,dt33,3hrs,fxvj>)



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Sep 27 18:45:25 2009
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun Sep 27 16:50:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Almanac
In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70909271220p14520416rf54d61a4c4504333@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b65c2d70909271220p14520416rf54d61a4c4504333@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABFEB05.7010204@opus40.org>

Still a wonder.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>
>     The Wild Swans At Coole
>
> by William Butler Yeats 
> <http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,3eb5,htn1,3hrs,fxvj>
>
> The trees are in their autumn beauty,
> The woodlands paths are dry,
> Under the October twilight the water
> Mirrors a still sky;
> Upon the brimming water among the stones
> Are nine-and-fifty swans.
>
> The nineteenth autumn has come upon me
> Since I first made my count;
> I saw, before I had well finished,
> All suddenly mount
> And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
> Upon their clamorous wings.
>
> I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
> And now my heart is sore.
> All's changed since I, hearing at twilight,
> The first time on this shore
> The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
> Trod with a lighter tread.
>
> Unwearied still, lover by lover,
> They paddle in the cold
> Companionable streams or climb the air;
> Their hearts have not grown old;
> Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
> Attend upon them still.
>
> But now they drift on the still water,
> Mysterious, beautiful;
> Among what rushes will they build,
> By what lake's edge or pool
> Delight men's eyes when I awake some day
> To find they have flown away?
>
> "The Wild Swans at Coole" by W.B. Yeats, from /Collected Poems/. 
> Public domain. (buy now 
> <http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,e0lv,dt33,3hrs,fxvj>)
>
>
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep 27 23:29:53 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun Sep 27 21:34:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wild Swans at Coole
In-Reply-To: <4ABFEB05.7010204@opus40.org>
References: <4b65c2d70909271220p14520416rf54d61a4c4504333@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABFEB05.7010204@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <873E0EAB-1C32-4AC0-B454-1095611BFCE7@ripon.edu>

Yes.  In grad school I wrote a paper on this poem, looking at Yeats's  
manuscript revisions.  As with many of his poems, the first drafts  
were really awful, wooden in both music and idea.   But he just kept  
hammering away until it lifted off.  I have always chosen to take that  
fact as inspiring, since my *own* first drafts are often  
wooden. . . .  In other words, I'm just like Yeats!

As I recall, he also changed the order of the stanzas fairly late in  
the game.  I believe that the wondrous final stanza was buried in the  
middle somewhere; but I'd have to check that.  There's a fascinating  
book titled *Yeats at Work* that is about his revisions--don't know if  
it's still in print.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




On Sep 27, 2009, at 5:45 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Still a wonder.
>
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>>
>>
>>    The Wild Swans At Coole
>>
>> by William Butler Yeats <http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,3eb5,htn1,3hrs,fxvj 
>> >
>>
>> The trees are in their autumn beauty,
>> The woodlands paths are dry,
>> Under the October twilight the water
>> Mirrors a still sky;
>> Upon the brimming water among the stones
>> Are nine-and-fifty swans.
>>
>> The nineteenth autumn has come upon me
>> Since I first made my count;
>> I saw, before I had well finished,
>> All suddenly mount
>> And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
>> Upon their clamorous wings.
>>
>> I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
>> And now my heart is sore.
>> All's changed since I, hearing at twilight,
>> The first time on this shore
>> The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
>> Trod with a lighter tread.
>>
>> Unwearied still, lover by lover,
>> They paddle in the cold
>> Companionable streams or climb the air;
>> Their hearts have not grown old;
>> Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
>> Attend upon them still.
>>
>> But now they drift on the still water,
>> Mysterious, beautiful;
>> Among what rushes will they build,
>> By what lake's edge or pool
>> Delight men's eyes when I awake some day
>> To find they have flown away?
>>
>> "The Wild Swans at Coole" by W.B. Yeats, from /Collected Poems/.  
>> Public domain. (buy now <http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,idp9,dv,e0lv,dt33,3hrs,fxvj 
>> >)
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
>> dancing star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!
> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner
>
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 23:32:38 2009
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Sun Sep 27 21:37:24 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wild Swans at Coole
In-Reply-To: <873E0EAB-1C32-4AC0-B454-1095611BFCE7@ripon.edu>
References: <4b65c2d70909271220p14520416rf54d61a4c4504333@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABFEB05.7010204@opus40.org>
	<873E0EAB-1C32-4AC0-B454-1095611BFCE7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <f3cd389f0909272032l7ca24c8and44f6bcfeee338e7@mail.gmail.com>

my grad school joyce and yeats course:  the yeats portion was all about
revision (with an editing viewpoint) (joyce was about scholarly editing)
-- 
All best,
Catherine Daly
c.a.b.daly@gmail.com
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From r_loden at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 28 05:29:16 2009
From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden)
Date: Mon Sep 28 03:34:03 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kevin Killian and Rachel Loden at Kepler's Books,
	Menlo Park CA
Message-ID: <F2A119CBC3E2442BA7022ADD10516BD5@GlassCastle>

Please come check us out if you're in the area and say hello!

 

Thursday, October 8

Kevin Killian and Rachel Loden

Kepler's Books

1010 El Camino Real

Menlo Park, CA

7:30 p.m.

Free

http://www.keplers.com/event/poetry-kevin-killian-rachel-loden

Info: (650) 324-4321

 

Kevin Killian has written two novels, Shy (1989) and Arctic Summer (1997), a
book of memoirs, Bedrooms Have Windows (1990), two books of stories, Little
Men (1996) and I Cry Like a Baby (2001) and two books of poetry, Argento
Series (2001), and Action Kylie (2008). With Lew Ellingham, Killian has
written often on the life and work of the American poet Jack Spicer
[1925-65] and with Peter Gizzi has edited My Vocabulary Did This To Me: The
Collected Poetry of Jack Spicer (2008) for Wesleyan University Press. For
the San Francisco Poets Theater Killian has written thirty plays, including
Stone Marmalade (1996, with Leslie Scalapino), The American Objectivists
(2001, with Brian Kim Stefans), and Often (also 2001, with Barbara Guest).
New projects include Screen Tests, an edition of Killian's film writing, and
Impossible Princess, a new fiction collection forthcoming from City Lights
Books in November. A new novel Spreadeagle will appear in the spring.

 

Rachel Loden is the author of Dick of the Dead, which came out in May and
has already been called "oddly sublime" and "intoxicating" by the Poetry
Project Newsletter and "expansive and whimsical" by the Brooklyn Rail. Her
first book, Hotel Imperium, was selected as one of the ten best poetry books
of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle, which called it "quirky and
beguiling." It was also shortlisted for the Bay Area Book Reviewers Award.
Loden has published four chapbooks, including The Last Campaign and The
Richard Nixon Snow Globe. Her work has appeared in New American Writing, The
Paris Review, Jacket, two editions of the Best American Poetry series, and
many other magazines and anthologies. She has received a Pushcart Prize, a
Fellowship in Poetry from the California Arts Council, and a grant from the
Fund for Poetry, and her work is forthcoming in the &NOW Awards: The Best
Innovative Writing.

 

http://keplers.com/bookstore-location-map-driving-directions-contact-and-par
king

 

Kepler's is located on El Camino Real between Santa Cruz Avenue and
Ravenswood, one mile north of Stanford University in Menlo Park. An
underground parking garage off Santa Cruz Avenue provides free parking. The
Menlo Park Cal Train station is located behind the bookstore, making for
convenient, green travel. 

 

 

 

 

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From david.weinstock at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 20:49:46 2009
From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock)
Date: Mon Sep 28 18:54:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Query--A scene in a 19th (?) Century Novel
Message-ID: <437b1e3a0909281749o7e3e7cbbl6a2b03f3317f9909@mail.gmail.com>

For a talk I am giving on Saturday, I am desperately trying to remember
where I read the following scene. I could have sworn it was in Jane Austen,
but nobody else remembers it there.

In the scene, a gentleman (rich, eligible) comes to visit two older ladies
-- sisters? maiden aunts?  Both of them want to thank him for something he
has given them -- a case of claret?--but both feel that you can't just come
out and SAY anything so unsubtle as "Thanks for the wine!"

So both of them go on to utter sentences which contain such deeply hidden
references to their gratitude that nobody can possibly have understood.

I know I'm not making this up, but where did I read it?

Thanks for any help you can give.

David W.
A lurker
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Sep 28 21:23:06 2009
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com)
Date: Mon Sep 28 19:28:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Query--A scene in a 19th (?) Century Novel
Message-ID: <d40.4f46e170.37f2bb7a@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/28/2009 7:50:05 PM Central Daylight Time, 
david.weinstock@gmail.com writes: 
> 
> For a talk I am giving on Saturday, I am desperately trying to remember 
> where I read the following scene. I could have sworn it was in Jane Austen, 
> but nobody else remembers it there.
> 
> In the scene, a gentleman (rich, eligible) comes to visit two older ladies 
> -- sisters? maiden aunts?  Both of them want to thank him for something he 
> has given them -- a case of claret?--but both feel that you can't just 
> come out and SAY anything so unsubtle as "Thanks for the wine!"
> 
> So both of them go on to utter sentences which contain such deeply hidden 
> references to their gratitude that nobody can possibly have understood.
> 
> I know I'm not making this up, but where did I read it?
> 
> Thanks for any help you can give.
> 
> David W.
> A lurker
> 
> 
Sounds straight out of Cranford, Gaskell's novels, but I can't place it.
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 07:46:26 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue Sep 29 05:50:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Health & Illness
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909290446w4c27e591i8619692d09ec407b@mail.gmail.com>

"*Until now I always felt a stranger in this town, and that I'd no concern
with you people. But now that I've seen what I have seen, I know that I
belong here whether I want it or not. This business is everybody's business*
."

from* The Plague* by Albert Camus

* *

*HEALTH & ILLNESS*

*(Poetic Works on Health & Illness in Human Experience)*

The body as a text or network of texts - as a sign, a signified or a
signifier, as a myth - articulated and performed by the self , the I, or by
instinct, and read variously by the other, the I, the we, the subject, or
the object, achieves complexity especially when set in illness and health
narratives. The languages of the body in such contexts, as configured in
cultural works, especially through a poetic insight, would be undoubtedly
useful in trying to understand how health related to the vegetal, animal or
human world is art and/or science, or how possible contaminations between
science and art can transfer to scientific art, or artistic science by
considering psychology and sociology as sciences of the behavior
respectively of the single and of the many, religion and philosophy as
sciences of the mind or of the metaphysical, medicine and biology as
manifest sciences of the body.

Poetic works that feature, interrogate, or probe health/illness
representations in culture and society are hereby invited for publication on
the Poets? Corner. The editors, Obododimma Oha and Anny Ballardini, are
particularly interested in artwork that presents illness and health in
unusual but inspiring modes with the aim of shedding light on the nature of
both. Unusual and intuitive readings should become tools to dismantle the
spiraling maelstrom of malady or to forge a consciousness to enlighten the
human being in the acceptance of what is if and whenever change or
improvement is impossible. Poetry should rise to the height of medical
science as an assistant, an advisor, or as the healer, be it at a physical
or metaphysical level.

Welcome are works that seek to present poetic languages of the mentally
challenged, the aphasic, the traumatized, the schizophrenic, as well as any
kind of disease, be it infectious like AIDS, or ?generational? like cancer,
be it connected with what is usually seen as a seasonal minor collapse like
viral influenza, or with accidents that change the lives of the victims.

The present contextualization could broaden to include the idea of a nation
as a single community, a constitutional body characterized by illnesses or
healthy states. It could also visualize, and still not be limited to,
various economic systems with their dangerous trends/breaths sweeping away
hopes or bringing in new ambitious projects, be them healthy or ill. The
same history of art or literary criticism could be reviewed under the lens
of variables that determine the health or the illness of the category.

Visual artwork, poems, poetic fiction, poetic nonfiction, and photographs to
be submitted for consideration should go beyond the traditional mimetic to
narrate distortions, out-of-the-body experiences, virtual thrills and/or
gratuitous hallucinations.

Visual works and photographs are to be saved in JPEG format; texts, which
should not have rigid formatting, in Word. All submissions should be emailed
to the editors anny.ballardini@gmail.com and obodooha@gmail.com by December
1, 2009 with "Health & Illness" in the Subject line.




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Tue Sep 29 14:21:33 2009
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Tue Sep 29 12:26:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Thanks, Bro, for the Wine
In-Reply-To: <200909291600.n8TG04YK028090@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200909291600.n8TG04YK028090@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <EF18438A-9D88-4173-A53D-DD608FC0A62F@verizon.net>


On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:00 AM, David W. wrote:

>  where did I read it?
>
> Sounds totally Jamesian (Henry, that is) -- one of his stories?

Barry
From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 29 14:26:00 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue Sep 29 12:32:07 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Thanks, Bro, for the Wine
In-Reply-To: <EF18438A-9D88-4173-A53D-DD608FC0A62F@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C6E7BB68.8B02%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It does sound rather Jamesean.  On the other hand, here's what my colleague
in 19th C. British lit had to say when I inquired:

"I don?t remember the scene, but if it?s in Jane Austen I think it would
have to be Emma. The women would be the Bates ladies, and I?d imagine that
the man would be Mr. Knightly. Could the gift possibly be apples instead of
wine?"


 


On 9/29/09 1:21 PM, "Barry Spacks" <barry.spacks@verizon.net> wrote:

> 
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:00 AM, David W. wrote:
> 
>>  where did I read it?
>> 
>> Sounds totally Jamesian (Henry, that is) -- one of his stories?
> 
> Barry

-- 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Sep 29 19:02:43 2009
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com)
Date: Tue Sep 29 17:07:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
Message-ID: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>

I admit that the cases aren't quite the same morally/legally/ethically, but 
it does seem to me that a lot of Hollywood celebrities have rallied around 
Roman Polanski, basically saying that his artistic contributions outweigh 
his personal failings.  This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to the 
case against Pound.  The subsequent furor over his receipt of the Bollingen was 
very intense.  Are artists somehow exempt from the moral laws that govern 
the hoi poilloi?
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 19:28:36 2009
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue Sep 29 17:33:04 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0909291628y6bdc6630re4e3033452ffe20@mail.gmail.com>

That's an interesting question, Sam, and one that's likely to cause debate.


I suppose, for me at least, the quick answer is "No."  Of course, the cases
and contexts are different, as well.  Pound is sent up for treason, Polanski
for child abuse.  Does one crime outweigh the other?  Pound's support of the
Italian fascists vs. Polanksi's taking advantage of a 13-year-old girl:  in
Pound's case, his later release from St. Elizabeth's (I think it was Robert
Frost who spoke up for him, among others) underscores the nature of his
crime, no?  He disagreed with the U.S., and he actively (apparently) tried
to oppose the U.S.'s mission in Italy.  Polanski, on the other, hand,
molested a child, a crime that doesn't seem governed by context (of course,
I know that in certain cultures . . . blah blah blah).

Perhaps the debate here lies in the nature of the crimes and not in the
criminals themselves?

Food for thought.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:02 PM, <Rsgwynn1@cs.com> wrote:

> I admit that the cases aren't quite the same morally/legally/ethically, but
> it does seem to me that a lot of Hollywood celebrities have rallied around
> Roman Polanski, basically saying that his artistic contributions outweigh
> his personal failings.  This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to the
> case against Pound.  The subsequent furor over his receipt of the Bollingen
> was very intense.  Are artists somehow exempt from the moral laws that
> govern the *hoi poilloi*?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that
is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and
experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar
needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 29 19:32:36 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep 29 17:37:06 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
Message-ID: <E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von Karajan 
and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by artists. The 
question in the two cases you bring up should be whether an average 
anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the law. Pound's 
treason would never have been considered serious enough to be a 
capital offense if he hadn't been famous, and, given his fame, he 
owed his life to that fame. It took away and also gave. The same may 
be true in Polanski's case. His offense seems to me worse than 
Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only a 14 year old, say, has 
the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given consent), but it was a 
very long time ago and there's been no repetition. The question 
really is whether anyone in that circumstances should have to spend 
what will probably be the rest of his life in prison.

Mark

At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:
>I admit that the cases aren't quite the same 
>morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot of 
>Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, basically 
>saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his personal 
>failings.  This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to the case 
>against Pound.  The subsequent furor over his receipt of the 
>Bollingen was very intense.  Are artists somehow exempt from the 
>moral laws that govern the hoi poilloi?
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep 29 20:36:11 2009
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue Sep 29 17:40:40 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back From Vacation
Message-ID: <4AC2A7FB.4070603@nut-n-but.net>

I decided to take time off from New-Poetry.  Interestingly, several 
times I quite missed it, mainly when I had things I thought might be of 
interest to the group--even nice things.  What finally got me to return 
with this is a request I got today to submit a 250-word mini-essay on 
some book I consider a bad book to /American Book Review./  This shows 
there iz peoples out there as mean-spirited as I!  

I'm looking forward to participating, but haven't decided on a book to 
write about.  First one I thought of was Camille Paglia's.  I haven't 
read it, nor do I have a copy of it, but as my good friends at 
New-Poetry know, that wouldn't stop me.  But now I'm wondering if any of 
you have any candidates.  I seriously thought it might be fun to find 
out which books everyone else thinks truly bad.  /ABR/ is interested in 
all sorts of books, including novels, but here I think the focus should 
be on books of, or about, poetry. 

Meanwhile, I'll be on vacation from New-Poetry again--but just (I hope) 
for a little while): I'll be in the hospital tomorrow for an out-patient 
surgical procedure.  Further news about this on Thursday--unless I'm 
kept at the hospital, which may well happen, even if everything goes 
well.  So, I won't be posting to this thread again for a while.

--Bob
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 29 20:22:26 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 29 18:27:10 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>


Mark,

But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by Italian fascists had he not be famous. 

So I don't know that his fame can?take all the blame.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound



This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von Karajan and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by artists. The question in the two cases you bring up should be whether an average anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the law. Pound's treason would never have been considered serious enough to be a capital offense if he hadn't been famous, and, given his fame, he owed his life to that fame. It took away and also gave. The same may be true in Polanski's case. His offense seems to me worse than Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only a 14 year old, say, has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given consent), but it was a very long time ago and there's been no repetition. The question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should have to spend what will probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
?
Mark?
?
At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>I admit that the cases aren't quite the same >morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot of >Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, basically >saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his personal >failings. This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to the case >against Pound. The subsequent furor over his receipt of the >Bollingen was very intense. Are artists somehow exempt from the >moral laws that govern the hoi poilloi??
>_______________________________________________?
>New-Poetry mailing list?
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?

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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 29 20:35:39 2009
From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss)
Date: Tue Sep 29 18:40:10 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I was saying that his fame cut both ways.

Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski 
skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking. 
Tho it's still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about 
enforcement of that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, 
but skipping out, the crime for which he's been pursued--if there 
weren't a publicity reward at the end. The shame of it is that 
skipping carries a lot heavier penalty than the rape itself.

Mark

At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:
>Mark,
>But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by 
>Italian fascists had he not be famous.
>So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.
>Finnegan
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
>Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>
>This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von 
>Karajan and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by 
>artists. The question in the two cases you bring up should be 
>whether an average anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the 
>law. Pound's treason would never have been considered serious enough 
>to be a capital offense if he hadn't been famous, and, given his 
>fame, he owed his life to that fame. It took away and also gave. The 
>same may be true in Polanski's case. His offense seems to me worse 
>than Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only a 14 year old, say, 
>has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given consent), but it 
>was a very long time ago and there's been no repetition. The 
>question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should have 
>to spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.
>
>Mark
>
>At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:
> >I admit that the cases aren't quite the 
> same >morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot 
> of >Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, 
> basically >saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his 
> personal >failings. This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to 
> the case >against Pound. The subsequent furor over his receipt of 
> the >Bollingen was very intense. Are artists somehow exempt from 
> the >moral laws that govern the hoi poilloi?
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> ><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 29 20:37:44 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Tue Sep 29 18:42:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
Message-ID: <A1B2342B-ABE4-45EC-B75B-7B7E344B4426@myuw.net>

I really don't get why this is so hard for people. The aesthetic  
accomplishments of an artist have no impact on estimations of their  
character, and their moral turpitude very rarely undermines the value  
of their work. One can acknowledge that Roman Polanski is a piece of  
shit rapist asshole and at the same time acknowledge that Chinatown is  
a great film. At the same time, one can recognize that Ezra Pound was  
an insane antisemitic fascist and recognize the importance of his work  
to 20th century english language literature.

On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote:

> I admit that the cases aren't quite the same morally/legally/ 
> ethically, but
> it does seem to me that a lot of Hollywood celebrities have rallied  
> around
> Roman Polanski, basically saying that his artistic contributions  
> outweigh
> his personal failings.  This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar  
> to the
> case against Pound.  The subsequent furor over his receipt of the  
> Bollingen was
> very intense.  Are artists somehow exempt from the moral laws that  
> govern
> the hoi poilloi?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 29 20:55:33 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 29 19:00:08 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge goes to Newark
Message-ID: <8CC0F7FD96AC0D7-39B0-1E3E4@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-15/1254186909280920.xml&coll=1

Newark gets the words: It's hosting renowned poetry festival
Tuesday, September 29, 2009 
Peggy McGlone
STAR-LEDGER STAFF



Newark was selected yesterday as host for the Geraldine R. Dodge Foundation's signature poetry festival next fall, a decision one official said will shine a light on the state's largest city as "a major cultural capital."



Although the foundation previously announced the 2010 festival would be canceled for financial reasons, Dodge decided to resurrect the popular event -- the largest poetry gathering in the country -- and present it in a new urban location.


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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Sep 29 21:06:57 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 29 19:11:32 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com><E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net><8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>


If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser offenses serving harder time.



Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound



I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
?
Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking. Tho it's still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about enforcement of that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, but skipping out, the crime for which he's been pursued--if there weren't a publicity reward at the end. The shame of it is that skipping carries a lot heavier penalty than the rape itself.?
?
Mark?
?
At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>Mark,?
>But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by >Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>Finnegan?
>?
>?
>-----Original Message-----?
>From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>?
>This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von >Karajan and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by >artists. The question in the two cases you bring up should be >whether an average anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the >law. Pound's treason would never have been considered serious enough >to be a capital offense if he hadn't been famous, and, given his >fame, he owed his life to that fame. It took away and also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's case. His offense seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been no repetition. The >question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should have >to spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
>?
>Mark?
>?
>At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
> >I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same >morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of >Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, > basically >saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal >failings. This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the case >against Pound. The subsequent furor over his receipt of > the >Bollingen was very intense. Are artists somehow exempt from > the >moral laws that govern the hoi poilloi??
> >_______________________________________________?
> >New-Poetry mailing list?
> ><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>?
>_______________________________________________?
>New-Poetry mailing list?
><mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>_______________________________________________?
>New-Poetry mailing list?
>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?

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From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 29 21:18:48 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Tue Sep 29 19:23:19 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com><E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net><8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>

my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to  
reject the plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.

On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:

>
> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served  
> his time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for  
> lesser offenses serving harder time.
>
>
>
> Finnegan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>
>
>
> I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
> ?
> Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski  
> skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking.  
> Tho it's still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about  
> enforcement of that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious,  
> but skipping out, the crime for which he's been pursued--if there  
> weren't a publicity reward at the end. The shame of it is that  
> skipping carries a lot heavier penalty than the rape itself.?
> ?
> Mark?
> ?
> At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>> Mark,?
>> But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech  
>> by >Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>> So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>> Finnegan?
>> ?
>> ?
>> -----Original Message-----?
>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>> ?
>> This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von  
>> >Karajan and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by  
>> >artists. The question in the two cases you bring up should be  
>> >whether an average anonymous soul should feel the full weight of  
>> the >law. Pound's treason would never have been considered serious  
>> enough >to be a capital offense if he hadn't been famous, and,  
>> given his >fame, he owed his life to that fame. It took away and  
>> also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's case. His offense  
>> seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only  
>> a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old,  
>> given consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been  
>> no repetition. The >question really is whether anyone in that  
>> circumstances should have >to spend what will! probably be the rest  
>> of his life in prison.?
>> ?
>> Mark?
>> ?
>> At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>> I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same >morally/legally/ 
>>> ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of >Hollywood  
>>> celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, > basically  
>>> >saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal  
>>> >failings. This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the  
>>> case >against Pound. The subsequent furor over his receipt of >  
>>> the >Bollingen was very intense. Are artists somehow exempt from >  
>>> the >moral laws that govern the hoi poilloi??
>>> _______________________________________________?
>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>> ?
>> _______________________________________________?
>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>> _______________________________________________?
>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
> ?
> _______________________________________________?
> New-Poetry mailing list?
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Tue Sep 29 22:30:04 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue Sep 29 20:34:29 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
	<31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>

yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
Salon: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
> my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to reject the
> plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his
>> time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser offenses
>> serving harder time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finnegan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>>
>>
>>
>> I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
>> ?
>> Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski
>> skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking. Tho it's
>> still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about enforcement of
>> that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, but skipping out, the
>> crime for which he's been pursued--if there weren't a publicity reward at
>> the end. The shame of it is that skipping carries a lot heavier penalty than
>> the rape itself.?
>> ?
>> Mark?
>> ?
>> At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>
>>> Mark,?
>>> But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by
>>> >Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>>> So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>>> Finnegan?
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> -----Original Message-----?
>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>>> ?
>>> This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von >Karajan
>>> and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by >artists. The
>>> question in the two cases you bring up should be >whether an average
>>> anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the >law. Pound's treason
>>> would never have been considered serious enough >to be a capital offense if
>>> he hadn't been famous, and, given his >fame, he owed his life to that fame.
>>> It took away and also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's case. His
>>> offense seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm done. Only
>>> a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given
>>> consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been no repetition.
>>> The >question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should have >to
>>> spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
>>> ?
>>> Mark?
>>> ?
>>> At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>
>>>> I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same
>>>> >morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of
>>>> >Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, > basically
>>>> >saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal >failings.
>>>> This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the case >against Pound.
>>>> The subsequent furor over his receipt of > the >Bollingen was very intense.
>>>> Are artists somehow exempt from > the >moral laws that govern the hoi
>>>> poilloi??
>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>
>>> ?
>>> _______________________________________________?
>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>> _______________________________________________?
>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>
>> ?
>> _______________________________________________?
>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
From obodooha at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 03:15:00 2009
From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha)
Date: Wed Sep 30 01:19:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Fogged Clarity-October Issue
In-Reply-To: <7a492c3d0909292027g1c132d36tecb117008328b58f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7a492c3d0909292027g1c132d36tecb117008328b58f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a24092720909300015y4000bfd8ic21c53fb283426a0@mail.gmail.com>

October 2009 Issue of *FoggedClarity: An Arts Review*, published.


www.foggedclarity.com

enjoy

-- 
Executive Editor, "Fogged Clarity"
www.foggedclarity.com

Ben Evans



-- 
Obododimma Oha
http://udude.wordpress.com/

Dept. of English
University of Ibadan
Nigeria

&

Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies
University of Ibadan

Phone: +234 803 333 1330;
           +234 805 350 6604;
           +234 808 264 8060.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 30 03:50:53 2009
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Wed Sep 30 01:55:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
	<31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>
	<6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A8EA8E8-757D-4BB5-847C-4D502C14BFC6@myuw.net>

There are better, less sexist articles at salon about the matter. best  
we leave this conversation aside before i start foaming at the mouth  
and calling you names. my opinions on this matter are all voiced at  
wetasphalt.com if you're curious.

as a matter of law and public policy however, that "the victim wants  
this stopped" is irrelevant.

On Sep 29, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

> yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
> Salon: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net>  
> wrote:
>> my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to  
>> reject the
>> plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served  
>>> his
>>> time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser  
>>> offenses
>>> serving harder time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Finnegan
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
>>> ?
>>> Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski
>>> skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my  
>>> thinking. Tho it's
>>> still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about  
>>> enforcement of
>>> that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, but skipping  
>>> out, the
>>> crime for which he's been pursued--if there weren't a publicity  
>>> reward at
>>> the end. The shame of it is that skipping carries a lot heavier  
>>> penalty than
>>> the rape itself.?
>>> ?
>>> Mark?
>>> ?
>>> At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>
>>>> Mark,?
>>>> But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech  
>>>> by
>>>>> Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>>>> So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>>>> Finnegan?
>>>> ?
>>>> ?
>>>> -----Original Message-----?
>>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>>>> ?
>>>> This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von  
>>>> >Karajan
>>>> and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by >artists.  
>>>> The
>>>> question in the two cases you bring up should be >whether an  
>>>> average
>>>> anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the >law. Pound's  
>>>> treason
>>>> would never have been considered serious enough >to be a capital  
>>>> offense if
>>>> he hadn't been famous, and, given his >fame, he owed his life to  
>>>> that fame.
>>>> It took away and also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's  
>>>> case. His
>>>> offense seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm  
>>>> done. Only
>>>> a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old,  
>>>> given
>>>> consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been no  
>>>> repetition.
>>>> The >question really is whether anyone in that circumstances  
>>>> should have >to
>>>> spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
>>>> ?
>>>> Mark?
>>>> ?
>>>> At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>>
>>>>> I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same
>>>>>> morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of
>>>>>> Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, >  
>>>>>> basically
>>>>>> saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal  
>>>>>> >failings.
>>>>> This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the case  
>>>>> >against Pound.
>>>>> The subsequent furor over his receipt of > the >Bollingen was  
>>>>> very intense.
>>>>> Are artists somehow exempt from > the >moral laws that govern  
>>>>> the hoi
>>>>> poilloi??
>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>
>>> ?
>>> _______________________________________________?
>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Wed Sep 30 08:01:51 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed Sep 30 06:06:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <4A8EA8E8-757D-4BB5-847C-4D502C14BFC6@myuw.net>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
	<31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>
	<6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A8EA8E8-757D-4BB5-847C-4D502C14BFC6@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <6768ac830909300501y6a7e0cfbp6e9ee33f01909d85@mail.gmail.com>

Call me anything you like. The victim's complaint is with  the sexism
inherent in the law and policy and culture which makes every
investigation of such crimes a further invasion of the victim's life
and character. She - like many others - says it was the trial and not
the perp which wrecked her life, and she doesn't want it to happen
again.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:50 AM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
> There are better, less sexist articles at salon about the matter. best we
> leave this conversation aside before i start foaming at the mouth and
> calling you names. my opinions on this matter are all voiced at
> wetasphalt.com if you're curious.
>
> as a matter of law and public policy however, that "the victim wants this
> stopped" is irrelevant.
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Michael Snider wrote:
>
>> yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
>> Salon:
>> http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to reject
>>> the
>>> plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
>>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his
>>>> time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser
>>>> offenses
>>>> serving harder time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finnegan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
>>>> ?
>>>> Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski
>>>> skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking. Tho
>>>> it's
>>>> still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about enforcement
>>>> of
>>>> that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, but skipping out,
>>>> the
>>>> crime for which he's been pursued--if there weren't a publicity reward
>>>> at
>>>> the end. The shame of it is that skipping carries a lot heavier penalty
>>>> than
>>>> the rape itself.?
>>>> ?
>>>> Mark?
>>>> ?
>>>> At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark,?
>>>>> But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>>>>>
>>>>> So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>>>>> Finnegan?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> -----Original Message-----?
>>>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von >Karajan
>>>>> and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by >artists. The
>>>>> question in the two cases you bring up should be >whether an average
>>>>> anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the >law. Pound's treason
>>>>> would never have been considered serious enough >to be a capital
>>>>> offense if
>>>>> he hadn't been famous, and, given his >fame, he owed his life to that
>>>>> fame.
>>>>> It took away and also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's case.
>>>>> His
>>>>> offense seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm done.
>>>>> Only
>>>>> a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given
>>>>> consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been no
>>>>> repetition.
>>>>> The >question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should
>>>>> have >to
>>>>> spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> Mark?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of
>>>>>>> Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, > basically
>>>>>>> saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal
>>>>>>> >failings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the case >against
>>>>>> Pound.
>>>>>> The subsequent furor over his receipt of > the >Bollingen was very
>>>>>> intense.
>>>>>> Are artists somehow exempt from > the >moral laws that govern the hoi
>>>>>> poilloi??
>>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
From obodooha at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 08:36:39 2009
From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha)
Date: Wed Sep 30 06:40:57 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <4A8EA8E8-757D-4BB5-847C-4D502C14BFC6@myuw.net>
References: <d24.54ffdd95.37f3ec13@cs.com>
	<E1MsmBV-00081e-HO@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F7B38C26D29-25A4-65F0@webmail-d062.sysops.aol.com>
	<E1MsnAX-0002MN-4C@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CC0F817138B22A-39B0-1E618@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com>
	<31B31F3B-282D-4B4E-9CE2-307F5A8BFE68@myuw.net>
	<6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A8EA8E8-757D-4BB5-847C-4D502C14BFC6@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <a24092720909300536t4d537127x8d514a7cd2444d44@mail.gmail.com>

"Foaming at the mouth and calling you names...." Impressive expression.
Effectively graphic. I'm sure it was written in good faith, Michael. I was
greatly amused on reading it. I have to be careful and be sure I don't
literally do that when I'm angry!

-- Obododimma.


On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:

> There are better, less sexist articles at salon about the matter. best we
> leave this conversation aside before i start foaming at the mouth and
> calling you names. my opinions on this matter are all voiced at
> wetasphalt.com if you're curious.
>
> as a matter of law and public policy however, that "the victim wants this
> stopped" is irrelevant.
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Michael Snider wrote:
>
>  yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
>> Salon:
>> http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
>>
>>> my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to reject
>>> the
>>> plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
>>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his
>>>> time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser
>>>> offenses
>>>> serving harder time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finnegan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>
>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was saying that his fame cut both ways.?
>>>> ?
>>>> Gwyn McVay just pointed out at WOMPO details I'd forgotten: Polanski
>>>> skipped out on a 90 day sentence. Really. That changes my thinking. Tho
>>>> it's
>>>> still true that no jurisdiction anywhere would worry about enforcement
>>>> of
>>>> that kind of trivia--not the rape, which was serious, but skipping out,
>>>> the
>>>> crime for which he's been pursued--if there weren't a publicity reward
>>>> at
>>>> the end. The shame of it is that skipping carries a lot heavier penalty
>>>> than
>>>> the rape itself.?
>>>> ?
>>>> Mark?
>>>> ?
>>>> At 08:22 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark,?
>>>>> But Pound wouldn't have been given a pulpit for treasonous speech by
>>>>>
>>>>>> Italian fascists had he not be famous.?
>>>>>>
>>>>> So I don't know that his fame can take all the blame.?
>>>>> Finnegan?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> -----Original Message-----?
>>>>> From: Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net>?
>>>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 7:32 pm?
>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> This is, of course, a recurrent problem. From Gesualdo to Von >Karajan
>>>>> and beyond there's no shortage of criminal behavior by >artists. The
>>>>> question in the two cases you bring up should be >whether an average
>>>>> anonymous soul should feel the full weight of the >law. Pound's treason
>>>>> would never have been considered serious enough >to be a capital
>>>>> offense if
>>>>> he hadn't been famous, and, given his >fame, he owed his life to that
>>>>> fame.
>>>>> It took away and also gave. The >same may be true in Polanski's case.
>>>>> His
>>>>> offense seems to me worse >than Pound's (there actually was harm done.
>>>>> Only
>>>>> a 14 year old, say, >has the right to sleep with a 13 year old, given
>>>>> consent), but it >was a very long time ago and there's been no
>>>>> repetition.
>>>>> The >question really is whether anyone in that circumstances should
>>>>> have >to
>>>>> spend what will! probably be the rest of his life in prison.?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> Mark?
>>>>> ?
>>>>> At 07:02 PM 9/29/2009, you wrote:?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I admit that the cases aren't quite the > same
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> morally/legally/ethically, but it does seem to me that a lot > of
>>>>>>> Hollywood celebrities have rallied around Roman Polanski, > basically
>>>>>>> saying that his artistic contributions outweigh his > personal
>>>>>>> >failings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This reaction strikes me as vaguely similar to > the case >against
>>>>>> Pound.
>>>>>> The subsequent furor over his receipt of > the >Bollingen was very
>>>>>> intense.
>>>>>> Are artists somehow exempt from > the >moral laws that govern the hoi
>>>>>> poilloi??
>>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>> <mailto:New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> _______________________________________________?
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list?
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu?
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Obododimma Oha
http://udude.wordpress.com/

Dept. of English
University of Ibadan
Nigeria

&

Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies
University of Ibadan

Phone: +234 803 333 1330;
           +234 805 350 6604;
           +234 808 264 8060.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 30 09:14:23 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 30 07:18:45 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <970089.74986.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Interesting article, especially in that the author is claiming Polanski's victim is 'raped' by the media each time the case receives more attention...?
Amy

_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.

--- On Tue, 9/29/09, Michael Snider <mandolin@mikesnider.org> wrote:

From: Michael Snider <mandolin@mikesnider.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 10:30 PM

yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
Salon: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net> wrote:
> my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to reject the
> plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his
>> time.?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser offenses
>> serving harder time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finnegan
>>
>>



      
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 30 10:59:56 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 30 09:04:18 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha?  Who?  Larry Levis??
Message-ID: <691650.48253.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

How have I never stumbled across Larry Levis until my 38th year? ?Is it because he didn't belong to any particular "school"? ?Maybe I've just been living in the New York box....?
The poems I've been reading in his posthumous book, edited by his friend and former teacher, Philip Levine, ELEGY, are worth diving into. ?Just ordered WINTER STARS, supposed to be a step up from Elegy. ?Take a look at "Anastasia and Sandman" (tho the stanza breaks are off, I believe) from Elegy:
http://poemhunter.com/poem/anastasia-sandman/
Enjoy,
Amy

_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a review copy, please email me directly.


      
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 12:16:26 2009
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed Sep 30 10:20:46 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
In-Reply-To: <691650.48253.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <691650.48253.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60909300916g651c0601xafd9094342117d33@mail.gmail.com>

Levis has been in the poetry firmament since, oh, 1970 or so.  But you were
only . . .  you weren't.
- Jim

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How have I never stumbled across Larry Levis until my 38th year?  Is it
> because he didn't belong to any particular "school"?  Maybe I've just been
> living in the New York box....?
> The poems I've been reading in his posthumous book, edited by his friend
> and former teacher, Philip Levine, ELEGY, are worth diving into.  Just
> ordered WINTER STARS, supposed to be a step up from Elegy.  Take a look at
> "Anastasia and Sandman" (tho the stanza breaks are off, I believe) from
> Elegy:
>
> http://poemhunter.com/poem/anastasia-sandman/
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Amy
>
> _______*
>
> NEW BOOK
>
> Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm -- For a
> review copy, please email me directly.*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 30 12:22:02 2009
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed Sep 30 10:26:22 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
In-Reply-To: <648208b60909300916g651c0601xafd9094342117d33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6E8EFDA.8B6A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Levis's first couple books struck me very favorably at the time, and he was
certainly a "hot" poet back when I was in grad school, lo these several
decades ago.  But I can't read the early work much now; it seems fatally
infected with the lamest aspects of 70s period style, a gauzy pretentious
surrealism of the stones-and-bones school.

But he got much better as he developed.  I like *Elegy*, but think *Winter
Stars* is his best single book.


On 9/30/09 11:16 AM, "James Cervantes" <cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote:

> Levis has been in the poetry firmament since, oh, 1970 or so. ?But you were
> only . . . ?you weren't.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> How have I never stumbled across Larry Levis until my 38th year? ?Is it
>> because he didn't belong to any particular "school"? ?Maybe I've just been
>> living in the New York box....?
>> The poems I've been reading in his posthumous book, edited by his friend and
>> former teacher, Philip Levine, ELEGY, are worth diving into. ?Just ordered
>> WINTER STARS, supposed to be a step up from Elegy. ?Take a look at "Anastasia
>> and Sandman" (tho the stanza breaks are off, I believe) from Elegy:
>> 
>> http://poemhunter.com/poem/anastasia-sandman/
>> 
>> Enjoy,
>> 
>> Amy
>> 
>> _______
>> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd@ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
====================================================



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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Wed Sep 30 13:21:29 2009
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Wed Sep 30 11:25:51 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
In-Reply-To: <C6E8EFDA.8B6A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <648208b60909300916g651c0601xafd9094342117d33@mail.gmail.com>
	<C6E8EFDA.8B6A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4AC34D46.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu>

For those interested, I have written an overview of Larry Levis's poetry that has appeared in _Blackbird_, among other publications:

http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v3n2/nonfiction/byrne_e/recover.htm



--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Faculty Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/english/faculty/byrne.php
Personal Blog:
http://edwardbyrnepoet.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/
VPR Editor's Blog:
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 30 14:47:57 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 30 12:52:17 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
In-Reply-To: <4AC34D46.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <79479.95696.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


Thank you, Edward! ?Printing it now...
Amy

_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm?
--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Edward Byrne <Edward.Byrne@valpo.edu> wrote:

From: Edward Byrne <Edward.Byrne@valpo.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 1:21 PM

For those interested, I have written an overview of Larry Levis's poetry that has appeared in _Blackbird_, among other publications:

http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v3n2/nonfiction/byrne_e/recover.htm



--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Faculty Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/english/faculty/byrne.php
Personal Blog:
http://edwardbyrnepoet.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/
VPR Editor's Blog:
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



      
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 15:27:08 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 30 13:31:27 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back From Vacation
In-Reply-To: <4AC2A7FB.4070603@nut-n-but.net>
References: <4AC2A7FB.4070603@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909301227p6a4905efjd5252e87a45daf33@mail.gmail.com>

I think we all missed you, and please take care with those H.
A bad book of Poetry? I will have to think about it.

Till soon and let us know how you are doing, Anny


On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>  I decided to take time off from New-Poetry.  Interestingly, several times
> I quite missed it, mainly when I had things I thought might be of interest
> to the group--even nice things.  What finally got me to return with this is
> a request I got today to submit a 250-word mini-essay on some book I
> consider a bad book to *American Book Review.*  This shows there iz
> peoples out there as mean-spirited as I!
>
> I'm looking forward to participating, but haven't decided on a book to
> write about.  First one I thought of was Camille Paglia's.  I haven't read
> it, nor do I have a copy of it, but as my good friends at New-Poetry know,
> that wouldn't stop me.  But now I'm wondering if any of you have any
> candidates.  I seriously thought it might be fun to find out which books
> everyone else thinks truly bad.  *ABR* is interested in all sorts of
> books, including novels, but here I think the focus should be on books of,
> or about, poetry.
>
> Meanwhile, I'll be on vacation from New-Poetry again--but just (I hope) for
> a little while): I'll be in the hospital tomorrow for an out-patient
> surgical procedure.  Further news about this on Thursday--unless I'm kept at
> the hospital, which may well happen, even if everything goes well.  So, I
> won't be posting to this thread again for a while.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 30 15:30:53 2009
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed Sep 30 13:35:13 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Reading this Saturday: Compton, Gordon, King
Message-ID: <154283.50300.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>




--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Jeremy Czerw ?wrote:


This Saturday is the last fall event of the Saturday Poets Series at the
Grand Central branch of The New York Public Library.


Grand Central Branch Library
135 East 46 Street, New York NY
Saturday, October 3 @ 2 PM
Free and open to the public
blog: http://grandcentralpoets.blogspot.com


Our readers are Shanna Compton, Nada Gordon and Amy King

Shanna Compton is the author of For Girls (& Others) (Bloof Books, 2008),
Down Spooky (Winnow, 2005), GAMERS (Soft Skull, 2004), and several
chapbooks. Her poems and essays have appeared widely, including Best
American Poetry 2005, McSweeney's, the Poetry Foundation website, and the
forthcoming Flarf anthology. Recent poems and an essay may be found in the
tenth anniversary issue of LIT. She blogs desultorily at shannacompton.com.

Nada Gordon's books include V. Imp., Are Not Your Lowing Heifers Sleeker
Than Night-Swollen Mushrooms, Swoon (with Gary Sullivan) and Foriegn Bodi,
and Folly (2007). Visit her blog at http://ululate.blogspot.com

Amy King is the author of I?m the Man Who Loves You and Antidotes for an
Alibi, and forthcoming, I Want to Make You Safe and Slaves to Do These
Things. She teaches English and Creative Writing at Nassau Community College
and curates the Brooklyn-based reading series, The Stain of Poetry. For more
information, please visit http://amyking.org.




      
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 16:14:55 2009
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed Sep 30 14:19:12 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Reading this Saturday: Compton, Gordon, King
In-Reply-To: <154283.50300.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <154283.50300.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b65c2d70909301314w399278c2g31fb5846322ec1a4@mail.gmail.com>

What an incredible trio!


On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:30 PM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 9/30/09, Jeremy Czerw * wrote:
>
>
>
> This Saturday is the last fall event of the Saturday Poets Series at the
> Grand Central branch of The New York Public Library.
>
>
> Grand Central Branch Library
> 135 East 46 Street, New York NY
> Saturday, October 3 @ 2 PM
> Free and open to the public
> blog: http://grandcentralpoets.blogspot.com
>
>
> Our readers are Shanna Compton, Nada Gordon and Amy King
>
> Shanna Compton is the author of For Girls (& Others) (Bloof Books, 2008),
> Down Spooky (Winnow, 2005), GAMERS (Soft Skull, 2004), and several
> chapbooks. Her poems and essays have appeared widely, including Best
> American Poetry 2005, McSweeney's, the Poetry Foundation website, and the
> forthcoming Flarf anthology. Recent poems and an essay may be found in the
> tenth anniversary issue of LIT. She blogs desultorily at shannacompton.com
> .
>
> Nada Gordon's books include V. Imp., Are Not Your Lowing Heifers Sleeker
> Than Night-Swollen Mushrooms, Swoon (with Gary Sullivan) and Foriegn Bodi,
> and Folly (2007). Visit her blog at http://ululate.blogspot.com
>
> Amy King is the author of I?m the Man Who Loves You and Antidotes for an
> Alibi, and forthcoming, I Want to Make You Safe and Slaves to Do These
> Things. She teaches English and Creative Writing at Nassau Community
> College
> and curates the Brooklyn-based reading series, The Stain of Poetry. For
> more
> information, please visit http://amyking.org.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From mandolin at mikesnider.org  Wed Sep 30 18:42:52 2009
From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed Sep 30 16:47:09 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
In-Reply-To: <970089.74986.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <6768ac830909291930g28c97f1en8f39bb67e11c0e79@mail.gmail.com>
	<970089.74986.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6768ac830909301542l5c121641x5d694d9827982a06@mail.gmail.com>

I do want to make clear that I have no sympathy for Polanski in this.
Mike

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:14 AM, amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Interesting article, especially in that the author is claiming Polanski's
> victim is 'raped' by the media each time the case receives more
> attention...
> Amy
>
> _______*
>
> NEW BOOK
>
> Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3..htm -- For a
> review copy, please email me directly.*
>
> --- On *Tue, 9/29/09, Michael Snider <mandolin@mikesnider.org>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Snider <mandolin@mikesnider.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polanski vs. Pound
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" <
> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 10:30 PM
>
> yes -- and the victim wants this stopped as well. There's a piece at
> Salon:
> http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/28/polanski_justice/index.html
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jason Quackenbush <jfq@myuw.net<http://mc/compose?to=jfq@myuw.net>>
> wrote:
> > my understanding is that his fear was that the judge was going to reject
> the
> > plea bargain and give him a few years in Chino.
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, jforjames@aol.com<http://mc/compose?to=jforjames@aol.com>wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If only?a 90-day stretch,?more reason Polanski should have served his
> >> time..?If?only in sympathy for the millions incarcerated?for lesser
> offenses
> >> serving harder time.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Finnegan
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep 30 20:46:01 2009
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep 30 18:50:36 2009
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
In-Reply-To: <79479.95696.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CC1047AF1C3223-3120-5EF5@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com>


Larry Levis was one of the first poets I ever heard read. He was teaching at the University of Missouri at the time, I believe.

He was just making a name for himself and the poem I remember most from that first encounter was "Linnets.

A long, postmo piece that reminds me of Mark Strand's work, now that I reread it. A few years latter he was beginning to 

become famous and I remember hearing him read a poem "My Story in the Late Style of Fire," in which Billie Holiday's 

presence haunts the confessional monologue. I was young, but to me Levis was hip and cool and smart and a real poet.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: amy king <amyhappens@yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??








Thank you, Edward! ?Printing it now....



Amy


_______

NEW BOOK

Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm?;

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Edward Byrne <Edward.Byrne@valpo.edu> wrote:


From: Edward Byrne <Edward..Byrne@valpo.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wha? Who? Larry Levis??
To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 1:21 PM


For those interested, I have written an overview of Larry Levis's poetry that has appeared in _Blackbird_, among other publications:

http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v3n2/nonfiction/byrne_e/recover.htm



--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Faculty Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/english/faculty/byrne.php
Personal Blog:
http://edwardbyrnepoet.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/
VPR Editor's Blog:
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry













_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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