From elemenope_productions Mon Nov 2 16:32:41 2009 From: elemenope_productions (R Dillon) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:32:41 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of Whitman's Halloween Country In-Reply-To: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Found out there in the Heartland Speedicut writes: Saturday, October, 31, 2009 4:40 PM Oh North Dakota If parking your car for the night involves an extension cord You might live in North Dakota If you have ever refused to buy something because it's "too spendy", You might live in North Dakota If your local Dairy Queen is closed from November through March, You might live in North Dakota. If someone in a store offers you assistance, and they don't work there, You might live in North Dakota. If you think that ketchup is a little too spicy, You might live in North Dakota. If you see people wearing hunting clothes at social events, You might live in North Dakota. If you design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit, You might live in North Dakota. If you know all 4 seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter and road construction, you might live in North Dakota. If you consider Fargo exotic, You might live in North Dakota. _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmetres Tue Nov 3 12:09:15 2009 From: pmetres (Philip Metres) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:09:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] what do you think about this version of Sandburg's "Autumn Harvest"? Message-ID: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32YY2J18eU Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com "Those of us who had imagination circuits built can look in someone's face and see stories there; to everyone else, a face will be just a face." Kurt Vonnegut "...it doesn't matter whether we act or we write--the main thing isn't fame, glamour, or the things I dreamed about, it's knowing how to endure. I know how to shoulder my cross and I have faith. I have faith and it's not so painful for me, and when I think about my calling, I'm not afraid of life." Nina, from Chekhov's "Seagull" From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 12:11:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:11:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of Whitman's Halloween Country In-Reply-To: References: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911030911n22a3952fs1831e08bf3d939f7@mail.gmail.com> :-) Richard, I thought of you yesterday. Can you remember the title of a book by W. Burroughs where there is a shooting at the beginning and the protagonist then goes on with his life for the entire book and just around the last page the description of the shooting is repeated and we understand that the protagonist had died right there? I need it for a quotation and I don't have the book here. Thank you, Anny On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:32 PM, R Dillon wrote: > ** > ** > *Found out there in the Heartland* > ** > ** > ** > *Speedicut * writes: > > > > > > Saturday, October, 31, 2009 4:40 PM > Oh North Dakota If parking your car for the night involves an extension > cord You might > live in North Dakota > > If you have ever refused to buy something because it's "too spendy", > You might live in North Dakota > > If your local Dairy Queen is closed from November through March, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If someone in a store offers you assistance, and they don't work there, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If you think that ketchup is a little too spicy, You might live in > North Dakota. > > If you see people wearing hunting clothes at social events, You might > live in North Dakota. > > > If you design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If you know all 4 seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter and road > construction, you might live in North Dakota. > > If you consider Fargo exotic, > You might live in North Dakota. > > ------------------------------ > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 12:14:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:14:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] what do you think about this version of Sandburg's "Autumn Harvest"? In-Reply-To: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> References: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911030914x25afd2c9p6e663f4b28310b92@mail.gmail.com> Lovely. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Philip Metres wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32YY2J18eU > > Philip Metres > Associate Professor > Department of English > John Carroll University > 20700 N. Park Blvd > University Heights, OH 44118 > phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) > fax: (216) 397-1723 > http://www.philipmetres.com > http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com > > "Those of us who had imagination circuits built can look in someone's face > and see stories there; to everyone else, a face will be just a face." Kurt > Vonnegut > > "...it doesn't matter whether we act or we write--the main thing isn't > fame, glamour, or the things I dreamed about, it's knowing how to endure. I > know how to shoulder my cross and I have faith. I have faith and it's not > so painful for me, and when I think about my calling, I'm not afraid of > life." Nina, from Chekhov's "Seagull" > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha Tue Nov 3 13:39:30 2009 From: obodooha (Obododimma Oha) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:39:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70910291203i6487f384ka7745d83e5a66976@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Anny. The short essay is now available at http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/Editorial/5476383-184/S(H)IBBOLETH:_Deity_of_deities_.csp The editor, in his wisdom, changed the original title to "Deity of deities." You can also read other essays in my column indicated under "Related Articles" on that page. Regards, Obododimma. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > We'll be waiting to read your work! > Have a nice day you all, beautiful sunshine here... > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> Wonderful! Thanks, Anny. I have just mailed an article to NEXT, a Nigerian >> newspaper in which I have a column called "S(h)ibboleth". The article, >> incidentally, is about the "worship" of the computer and the Web, and does >> make an excursus to how it was in the early days in my country. I will share >> the article with you on Tuesday (when it is published), for the terms of my >> agreement with NEXT forbid publishing my article elsewhere. >> >> >> >> Wishing you and other Netizens a lovely weekend and happy anniversary, >> >> Obododimma. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> to the Internet! >>> 40 years old today, :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>> Giovenale >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >> >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604; >> +234 808 264 8060. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 13:57:33 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:57:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Immortality these days probably has mostly to do with being enshrined in academia. Frost will be around for a long time because so many careers are invested in him and because he's easy for a certain kind of teacher to teach to a certain kind of student. Let me be clear: I like Kyger's poetry, but I don't think it's going to change any lives. I think Ron is way too nice about The Four Quartets, which I reread recently, but Frost I find truly intolerable. "Mending Wall" probably isn't about rural New England rectitude and unfriendliness so much as his neighbor not wanting Frost specifically on his land--the guy had probably read the poems. My feelings about Frost are probably colored by having spent four years living in rural New England, though even as a child I was mystified by his appeal (like every middle class family in America, we had a Frost collection in the house). Frost was a poseur. His experience of rural life didn't begin until he was in his late twenties and was punctuated by years in the UK and years as a professor living in a college town. But he turned himself into the voice of the New England countyside, and honed an image that was less than it seemed. It wouldn't matter if he'd managed to carry it off. His poetry seems to me to reek of insincerity. How could anybody take Stopping By Woods seriously? But hey, we're talking about taste here. Unlike Ron, I don't care much what other people read, though I do tend to ask them why. Best, Mark At 03:25 PM 10/31/2009, you wrote: >Exhibit A: > >"And several of Friedlander?s implicit & >explicit value judgments strike me as perfectly >reasonable ? Four Quartets is an unforgivably >turgid, even stupid piece of writing, Joanne >Kyger?s poetry will prove far 'more lasting' >than that of Robert Frost, Lowell is for the >most part unbearable (and some of Duncan is likewise). . . . " > >Exhibit B, later in the same post: > >"A history of recent writing that is >idiosyncratic to the point of seeming arbitrary >isn?t just to drive on the wrong side of the >road, but to leave the road entirely, plowing >through back yards & fields alike." > >============== > >It's not clear from these snippets, but what Ron >Silliman is getting exercised about is Ben >Friedlander calling Marianne Moore the "center" of Modernism. > >That is not a question that keeps me up nights, >whatever my answer to it might be. But as to >Joanne Kyger's work lasting (or "lasting") >longer than Robert Frost's, well, I'd take that wager. > >The full post is here, under Wednesday 10/28/09: >http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 3 14:02:28 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:02:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote and I like Eliot pretty well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Tue Nov 3 14:08:15 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:08:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I don't care that much about Frost, but he's fun to play with. *Thirteen Variations on a Line by Robert Frost* ?Whose woods these are I think I know.? 1. I think I know whose timberland this is. 2. I know, I think, to whom these woods belong. 3. Betcha I know whose weald that is. 4. According to my mode of thinking, I have pertinent knowledge regarding the identity of the personage yon forest attaches to. 5. My current speculations suggest that I am cognizant of the proprietary state of that particular grove of tall woody plants. 6. That specific clump of potential planks, laths and boards is the property of a human being I have the capability of knowing. 7. The ownership of that forest is known to me. 8. This bosque, the very Such-ness of which now presents itself to me with such immediacy and terror that I stop dead in my tracks to, with all humility, gape open-mouthed at their individual Zusammenkeit, is held, in perpetuity or until hell freezes over, by One whose ownership of them is totally and forever beyond question. 9. The tract of trees in question is legally among the possessions of one whose name is not unknown to me. 10. Ed Becker is the name of the guy who owns this woody acreage, having inherited it from his father, Horace Becker, who bought it off a man named Edwards, whose family lived on it for seven generations prior, the house in which they lived falling into disrepair and local disrepute, gradually succumbing to winter and summer upheavals and falling slowly back into the earth from which nearly three centuries before it had, most laboriously, been raised up. 11. Know I think I are these woods whose. 12. That copse is chattel to a party whose ownership of said copse, withal, is not to be lightly questioned, at least by . . . yr humble servant. 13. Someone I know deludes himself with the idea that he owns this stand, this matrix of mixed growth?elm, oak, fir, maple, birch?and tangles of vine and bush, hospice to squirrel and fox and deer among the larger animals resident here, mouse and vole and termite, among the smaller, leaving yet room for birds, bees, and insects of all stripe, slugs and worms and ants?both red and black? flies, mosquitoes, gnats, down to the smallest of beings breeding in the sheen of moisture lodged however temporarily upon a single fallen leaf. *return to S H A M P O O 13 * ?When a man rides a long time in wild regions he feels the desire for a city.? --Italo Calvino Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:02 PM, wrote: > Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some > teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four > Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote > and I like Eliot pretty well. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 14:18:55 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:18:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some on the list probably know about my discovery of Frost's revised version. He corrected the inversion and the hideous rhyme in the second line (worthy of Edgar Guest), and found the last line he'd been looking for. So, the beginning and the end: I think I know whose woods these are, But they aint here, they're over thar. The woods are silent, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep. I guess I shoulda brung the jeep. He never did figure out what to do with the Grandma Moses stuff in between. I hope this is helpful. Mark Weiss At 02:08 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Oh, I don't care that much about Frost, but he's fun to play with. > >Thirteen Variations on a Line by Robert Frost > > ?Whose woods these are I think I know.? > >1. I think I know whose timberland this is. > >2. I know, I think, to whom these woods belong. > >3. Betcha I know whose weald that is. > >4. According to my mode of thinking, I have pertinent knowledge > regarding the identity of the personage yon forest attaches to. > >5. My current speculations suggest that I am cognizant of > the proprietary state of that > particular grove of tall woody plants. > >6. That specific clump of potential planks, laths and boards > is the property of a human being I > have the capability of knowing. > >7. The ownership of that forest is known to me. > >8. This bosque, the very Such-ness of which now presents itself to > me with such immediacy and terror that I stop dead in my tracks > to, with all humility, gape open-mouthed at their individual > Zusammenkeit, is held, in perpetuity or until hell > freezes over, by One whose ownership of them is totally and > forever beyond question. > >9. The tract of trees in question is legally among the possessions > of one whose name is not unknown to me. > >10. Ed Becker is the name of the guy who owns this woody acreage, > having inherited it from his father, Horace Becker, who bought > it off a man named Edwards, whose family lived on it for > seven generations prior, the house in which they lived falling > into disrepair and local disrepute, gradually succumbing > to winter and summer upheavals and falling slowly > back into the earth from which nearly three centuries before > it had, most laboriously, been raised up. > >11. Know I think I are these woods whose. > >12. That copse is chattel to a party whose ownership of said copse, > withal, is not to be lightly questioned, at least > by . . . yr humble servant. > >13. Someone I know deludes himself with the idea that he owns > this stand, this matrix of mixed growth?elm, oak, fir, > maple, birch?and tangles of vine and bush, hospice > to squirrel and fox and deer among the larger > animals resident here, mouse and vole and termite, among > the smaller, leaving yet room for birds, bees, and insects > of all stripe, slugs and worms and ants?both red and black? > flies, mosquitoes, gnats, down to the smallest > of beings breeding in the sheen > of moisture lodged however > temporarily upon > a single > fallen > leaf. > >return >to S H A M P O O > 13 >?When a man rides a long time in wild >regions he feels the desire for a city.? > --Italo Calvino > > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:02 PM, ><AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote: >Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have >him or as good as some teachers who haven't read >him very carefully think either. As for the Four >Quartets, I think I like them better than almost >anything else Eliot wrote and I like Eliot pretty well. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 14:22:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:22:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70910291203i6487f384ka7745d83e5a66976@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911031122v47217a17ke83a72d77362130@mail.gmail.com> This is a great article! And yes, never talked enough of the wisdom of editors of smaller newspapers or such... Congratulations, I once read that if per chance they were able to bring Leonardo back to life again, he would die right there because he would not have the needed antibodies. And yes, he would be astounded, I think he never thought of a visual singing communicating machine, although he foresaw planes, divers and submarines. But then he was the poet who worked for the Lord and couldn't but comply to the various lords' needs. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Hi Anny. The short essay is now available at > http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/Editorial/5476383-184/S(H)IBBOLETH:_Deity_of_deities_.csp > > > The > editor, in his wisdom, changed the original title to "Deity of deities." > > You can also read other essays in my column indicated under "Related > Articles" on that page. > > Regards, > Obododimma. > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> We'll be waiting to read your work! >> Have a nice day you all, beautiful sunshine here... >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: >> >>> Wonderful! Thanks, Anny. I have just mailed an article to NEXT, a >>> Nigerian newspaper in which I have a column called "S(h)ibboleth". The >>> article, incidentally, is about the "worship" of the computer and the Web, >>> and does make an excursus to how it was in the early days in my country. I >>> will share the article with you on Tuesday (when it is published), for the >>> terms of my agreement with NEXT forbid publishing my article elsewhere. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wishing you and other Netizens a lovely weekend and happy anniversary, >>> >>> Obododimma. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Anny Ballardini < >>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> to the Internet! >>>> 40 years old today, :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Anny Ballardini >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>> star! >>>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>>> Giovenale >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604; >>> +234 808 264 8060. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > http://udude.wordpress.com/ > > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604; > +234 808 264 8060. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 14:35:35 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:35:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Claude Levi Strauss Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911031135h7bc5e2b1uf9fbfcab6963977e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/europe/04levistrauss.html?hp 100, still sorry, still this reaches me as a surprise. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 14:49:18 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:49:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly Message-ID: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> For Immediate Release????????????????????????????????????November 2, 2009??Why Weren?t Any Women Invited To?Publishers Weekly?s Weenie Roast? ?Publishers Weekly?recently announced their Best Books Of 2009 list. Of their top ten, chosen by editorial staff, no books written by women were included. Quoted in?The Huffington Post,?PW?confidently admitted that they're ?not the most politically correct" choices. This statement comes in a year in which new books appeared by writers such as?Lorrie Moore,?Margaret Atwood,?Alice Munro,?Mavis Gallant,Rita Dove,?Heather McHugh?and?Alicia Ostriker.???The absence made me nearly speechless.? said writer Cate Marvin, cofounder of the newly launched national literary organization WILLA (Women In Letters And Literary Arts), which, since August, has attracted close to 5400 members on their?Facebook?web page, including many major and emerging women writers. ?It continues to surprise me that?literary editors?are so comfortable with their bias toward male writing, despite the great and obvious contributions that women authors make to our contemporary literary culture.??WILLA?s other cofounder, Erin Belieu, Director Of The?Creative Writing Program?at?Florida State University, asked, ?So is the flipside here that including women authors on the list would just have been an empty, politically correct gesture? When?PW?s editors tell us they?re not worried about ?political correctness,? that?s code for???your concerns as a feminist aren?t legitimate.? They know they?re being blatantly sexist, but it looks like they feel good about that. I, on the other hand, have heard from a?whole lot of people?writers and readers--who don?t feel good about it at all.??PW also did a Top 100 list and, of the authors included, only 29 were women. The WILLA Advisory Board is in the process of putting together a list titled ?Great Books?Published By Women In 2009.? This will be posted to the organization?s Facebook page and website. A WILLA Wiki has also been started for people to share their nominations for?Great Books?By Women in 2009. Press release to follow.?WILLA was founded to bring increased attention to women?s literary accomplishments and to question the American literary establishment?s historical slow-footedness in recognizing and rewarding women writer?s achievements. WILLA is about to launch their website and is in the process of planning their first national conference to be held next year.?(Note: until recently, WILLA went under the acronym WILA, with one ?L.? If you?re interested in the organization, please?Google?WILA with one ?L? to see background on how this group was originally formed.)?For more information contact:?Erin Belieuebelieu at fsu.edu(850) 559-4030?Cate Marvincatemarvin at gmail.com(718) 749-8613 _______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 3 18:15:00 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:15:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: In a message dated 11/3/2009 1:03:08 PM Central Standard Time, AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > > > Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some > teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four > Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote and I > like Eliot pretty well. > I'd say that anyone who's read "A Servant to Servants" should know that Frost's the real thing. That one and about fifty others. He was personally something of a jerk, but what poet isn't? I, too, dislike it (The Four Quartets), which rather states the obvious for me anyway. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:40:49 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:40:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Your bringing up (I think it was you) the 4 quartets got me to start rereading them (or "it?"), and I found what I read much better than I remembered it as being, Mark. I found it excellent. Got sidetracked, left it, then forgot to come back. (I do that all the time with all kinds of reading material, but will go back to Eliot soon.) On the other hand, I continue to consider "Stopping by the Woods" one of the best poems ever by anybody, and probably better than the 4 quartets. But I'm a sucker for poems about snow. I rate Emerson's about the "frolic architecture of the snow" very high, too. --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:47:07 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:47:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:59:48 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:59:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF0D204.6090309@nut-n-but.net> Amazing, but to me a good thing: a list no one at PW felt compelled to put a book by a woman on. Why must it be assumed that the choices were sexist, that the editorial staff didn't sincerely pick the books they thought were the ten best? Why in the world would they be sexist? Out of curiosity: how many women are on the PW editorial staff? I would admit that it seems odd to me that such a list would have nothing by a woman on it, but I once flipped a coin that came up heads fourteen times in a row. Bad Bob, getting himself stupidly in trouble again--but, hey, maybe now PW's list will have something by ME on it! From junction Tue Nov 3 19:58:45 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:58:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Whittier's "Snowbound"? At 07:40 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Your bringing up (I think it was you) the 4 quartets got me to start >rereading them (or "it?"), and I found what I read much better than >I remembered it as being, Mark. I found it excellent. Got >sidetracked, left it, then forgot to come back. (I do that all the >time with all kinds of reading material, but will go back to Eliot >soon.) On the other hand, I continue to consider "Stopping by the >Woods" one of the best poems ever by anybody, and probably better >than the 4 quartets. >But I'm a sucker for poems about snow. I rate Emerson's about the >"frolic architecture of the snow" very high, too. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From junction Tue Nov 3 20:00:18 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:00:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Apparently not quite universal. At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, >is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should >think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From mandolin Tue Nov 3 21:03:56 2009 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:03:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.com> Not much is universal, but IMNSHO Frost has no American rivals, and only Yeats in 20th century English. And he's quite disruptive, in his way. The Road Not Taken gets read at way too many commencements - especially considering that he's telling what lies he's going to tell. >From Mending Wall it's the neighbor who gets quoted, but it's clear the poem's speaker has more than doubts about the good neighbor good fences thing. And in Death of the Hired Man, "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, They have to take you in" is spoken in a kind of despairing voice when Frost reads it. True, The Gift Outright sucks on many levels - On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Apparently not quite universal. > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >> >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. ?Someone did! >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" ?Yeeks, all it is, is a >> moment spent watching snow come down. ?Universal, I should think. ?If he was >> faking it, he was Very Odd. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 21:07:28 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly -- Only Male Content Prized In-Reply-To: <4AF0D204.6090309@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <467981.16901.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Using statistics alone, there should be a high likelihood that half of the selections would be by women since women are certainly writing and getting published. ?But are you saying that the staff only values the writing of men then "naturally"? ?That not one woman wrote a book worthy of a top ten position? ?The *best* writing, according to PW, is only by men. ?That's not sexist? ? The grossest answer is their excuse, that they weren't being "politically correct." Because it would take some sort of false leveling for them to find women's writing to "stand out from the rest," as they put it. ? Upon reviewing the content of these PW "prized" novels, we learn that actually only novels that deal with male protagonists and how men live, fight, grow, are adventurous, are celebrated, etc is really the only stuff that's noteworthy. Let's see: Publishers Weekly?announced their Top 10 picks for 2009. These are the books that they thought "stood out from the rest." PW admits that they're not "the most politically correct" choices -- the list doesn't include any female authors -- but, to the editors, they were the best among the top 100 that they had chosen. You can read their reviews for the books?on their site.We want to know what you think. Is something missing? Do you think this is great, or totally off-base?? The Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science?by Richard Holmes (Pantheon) PRIMARILY ABOUT MALE PROTAGONISTS FOCUSED ON MOSTLY MALE SCIENTISTS: Holmes, author of a much-admired biography of Coleridge, focuses on prominent British scientists of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, including the astronomer William Herschel and his accomplished assistant and sister, Caroline; Humphrey Davy, a leading chemist and amateur poet; and Joseph Banks, whose journal of a youthful voyage to Tahiti was a study in sexual libertinism. Holmes?s biographical approach makes his obsessive protagonists (Davy?s self-experimenting with laughing gas is an epic in itself) the prototypes of the Romantic genius absorbed in a Promethean quest for knowledge.? Await Your Reply?by Dan Chaon (Ballantine) AGAIN, MOSTLY MALE PROTAGONISTS: Eighteen-year-old Lucy Lattimore, her parents dead, flees her stifling hometown with charismatic high school teacher George Orson, soon to find herself enmeshed in a dangerous embezzling scheme. Meanwhile, Miles Chesire is searching for his unstable twin brother, Hayden, a man with many personas who?s been missing for 10 years and is possibly responsible for the house fire that killed their mother. Ryan Schuyler is running identity-theft scams for his birth father, Jay Kozelek, after dropping out of college to reconnect with him, dazed and confused after learning he was raised thinking his father was his uncle.? Big Machine?by Victor LaValle (Spiegel & Grau) AGAIN, THE MALE REALITY WINS:Gritty, mostly honest-hearted ex-heroin addict protagonist Ricky Rice takes a chance on an anonymous note delivered to him at the cruddy upstate New York bus depot where he works as a porter.? Cheever: A Life?by Blake Bailey (Knopf) ALL ABOUT A MAN: In this overlong but always entertaining biography, composed with a novelist?s eye, Bailey, biographer of Richard Yates and editor of two volumes of Cheever?s work for Library of America (also due in March), was given access to unpublished portions of Cheever?s famous journals and to family members and friends. A Fiery Peace in a Cold War: Bernard Schriever and the Ultimate Weapon?by Neil Sheehan (Random House)AHEM, SERIOUS MALE REALITIES, WAR AND "REAL WORLD" SHIT: The military-industrial complex proves an unlikely arena for plucky individualism in this history of the men who built America?s intercontinental ballistic missile program in the 1950s and ?60s. Sheehan paints air force Gen. Bernard Schriever and his colorful band of military aides, civilian patrons, defense intellectuals and aerospace entrepreneurs as a guerrilla insurgency fighting Pentagon red tape, and a hostile air force brass, led by Strategic Air Command honcho Curtis LeMay, who advocated megatonnage bomber planes over ICBMs.? In Other Rooms, Other Wonders?by Daniyal Mueenuddin (Norton) In eight beautifully crafted, interconnected stories, Mueenuddin explores the cutthroat feudal society in which a rich Lahore landowner is entrenched. Jeff in Venice, Death in Varanasi?by Geoff Dyer (Pantheon)WHOA, MANLY ADVENTURE Two 40-ish men seeking love and existential meaning are the protagonists of these highly imaginative twin novellas, written in sensuous, lyrical prose brimming with colorful detail. Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon?by David Grann (Doubleday) MORE ON MEN AND THEIR ADVENTUROUS EXPLORING NATURES In 1925, renowned British explorer Col. Percy Harrison Fawcett embarked on a much publicized search to find the city of Z, site of an ancient Amazonian civilization that may or may not have existed. Fawcett, along with his grown son Jack, never returned, but that didn?t stop countless others, including actors, college professors and well-funded explorers from venturing into the jungle to find Fawcett or the city. Among the wannabe explorers is Grann, a staff writer for the?New Yorker, who has bad eyes and a worse sense of direction.? Shop Class as Soulcraft?by Matthew B. Crawford (Penguin Press)THIS LIST SHOULD BE CALLED, "HOW MEN LIVE" Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls manual competence, the ability to work with one's hands. Stitches?by David Small (Norton)AND HOW BOYS GROW UP TO BECOME MEN In this profound and moving memoir, Small, an award-winning children?s book illustrator, uses his drawings to depict the consciousness of a young boy. The story starts when the narrator is six years old and follows him into adulthood, with most of the story spent during his early adolescence. Read more at:?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/ipublishers-weeklyi-top-1_n_338608.html --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Bob Grumman ?wrote: Amazing, but to me a good thing: a list no one at PW felt compelled to put a book by a woman on.? Why must it be assumed that the choices were sexist, that the editorial staff didn't sincerely pick the books they thought were the ten best?? Why in the world would they be sexist?? Out of curiosity: how many women are on the PW editorial staff?? I would admit that it seems odd to me that such a list would have nothing by a woman on it, but I once flipped a coin that came up heads fourteen times in a row. Bad Bob, getting himself stupidly in trouble again--but, hey, maybe now PW's list will have something by ME on it! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 21:31:50 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:31:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to look at Williams and Stevens among his contemporaries. Throw in Harte Crane, Lorine Niedecker, Oppen. A generation younger, Olson, Creeley. I could go on--Spicer, Blaser, Wieners--but it would get contentious. At 09:03 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Not much is universal, but IMNSHO Frost has no American rivals, and >only Yeats in 20th century English. And he's quite disruptive, in his >way. The Road Not Taken gets read at way too many commencements - >especially considering that he's telling what lies he's going to tell. > >From Mending Wall it's the neighbor who gets quoted, but it's clear >the poem's speaker has more than doubts about the good neighbor good >fences thing. And in Death of the Hired Man, "Home is the place where, >when you have to go there, They have to take you in" is spoken in a >kind of despairing voice when Frost reads it. > >True, The Gift Outright sucks on many levels - > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Apparently not quite universal. > > > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! > >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, is a > >> moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should > think. If he was > >> faking it, he was Very Odd. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > Forthcoming in November 2009. > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 3 21:32:40 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:32:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: I find Frost the equal of Williams on almost every level. I'd place him below Stevens and both of them below Eliot. Crane is problematic for me, but probably finally not the equal of Williams or Frost in the end. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Tue Nov 3 21:42:36 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:42:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet Message-ID: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> I'm with Mike Snider about Frost--a very great poet, among the best of his century, easily as good as (for instance) Eliot or Williams. Sam mentioned "A Servant to Servants" and "about fifty others." Yes indeed. "Home Burial" is as good as "The Waste Land." But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in his groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one does not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." Frost had his sententious side, yes, just as Whitman, Eliot, Pound and every other notable poet also had their lapses. Jarrell again: "any poet has written enough bad poetry to scare away anybody." But if you hate "Stopping By Woods," well, there are plenty of poems quite unlike it. And if you think "The Road Not Taken" is a tedious bit of commencement-day platitude, well, you haven't been reading very carefully. I'm surprised at how many smart readers misread that one. And so many others worth attending to: "The Housekeeper" is as strange and creepy and psychologically complex as anything by Poe or Melville. "The Black Cottage" is a marvel that should be at least as famous as "Home-Burial." "A Hundred Collars" is positively Chekhovian. And so on. . . . Years ago on another list Mark Richardson, co-editor of the Library of America edition of Frost, offered the following list of "first-rate (or simply provocative) but seldom anthologized poems" by Frost: "In Hardwood Groves" "Good Hours" "A Servant to Servants" "The Housekeeper" "An Old Man's Winter Night" "The Cow in Apple Time" "The Vanishing Red" "A Star in a Stone Boat" "A Boundless Moment" "Two Look at Two" "Goodbye and Keep Cold" "The Freedom of the Moon" "The Lovely Shall Be Choosers" "The Birthplace" "The Strong Are Saying Nothing" "In Dives Dive" "November" "Too Anxious For Rivers" "A Cliff Dwelling" "A Cabin in the Clearing" "Peril of Hope" "Our Doom to Bloom" Among "uncollected" poems: "The Parlor Joke" "Winter has beaten summer in fight . . ." "Let's Not Think" ====================== And if you're interested in praise and argument and explanation, there's a lot of good criticism out there, too. Richard Poirier's *Frost: The Work of Knowing* is for my money the best single thing on Frost in the scholarly vein, making a real case for Frost's intellectual complexity. Jarrell's essays are also extremely good, especially his one on "Home Burial." And William Pritchard's book on Frost, and and and. . . . There have also been enough biographical treatments correcting and complicating Lawrance Thompson's hatchet-job biography that the tiresome repetition of the myth of Frost as simply "a bad man" really ought to be retired for good. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 21:45:27 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:45:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm immune to levels. At 09:32 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I find Frost the equal of Williams on almost every level. I'd place >him below Stevens and both of them below Eliot. Crane is problematic >for me, but probably finally not the equal of Williams or Frost in the end. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From junction Tue Nov 3 21:52:17 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:52:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree with you? I've read all of Frost. It was always there. Mostly when poets (as opposed to taxonomists or teachers) talk about great poets they mean poets useful to their own practice. I really don't care if Frost is useful for anyone else's practice, tho I'd guess there aren't too many for whom he is. Williams is another matter, so much so that poets contend about which understanding of Williams is more useful, and his children are legion. Lorine Niedecker simply knocks me out. As you say, not much point to this discussion. The unwashed remain unwashed, whoever we think they are. Mark At 09:42 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I'm with Mike Snider about Frost--a very great poet, among the best >of his century, easily as good as (for instance) Eliot or >Williams. Sam mentioned "A Servant to Servants" and "about fifty >others." Yes indeed. "Home Burial" is as good as "The Waste Land." > >But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone >who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, >pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual >chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in >his groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one >does not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." > >Frost had his sententious side, yes, just as Whitman, Eliot, Pound >and every other notable poet also had their lapses. Jarrell again: >"any poet has written enough bad poetry to scare away anybody." > >But if you hate "Stopping By Woods," well, there are plenty of poems >quite unlike it. And if you think "The Road Not Taken" is a tedious >bit of commencement-day platitude, well, you haven't been reading >very carefully. I'm surprised at how many smart readers misread >that one. And so many others worth attending to: "The Housekeeper" >is as strange and creepy and psychologically complex as anything by >Poe or Melville. "The Black Cottage" is a marvel that should be at >least as famous as "Home-Burial." "A Hundred Collars" is positively >Chekhovian. And so on. . . . > >Years ago on another list Mark Richardson, co-editor of the Library >of America edition of Frost, offered the following list of >"first-rate (or simply provocative) but seldom anthologized poems" by Frost: > >"In Hardwood Groves" >"Good Hours" >"A Servant to Servants" >"The Housekeeper" >"An Old Man's Winter Night" >"The Cow in Apple Time" >"The Vanishing Red" >"A Star in a Stone Boat" >"A Boundless Moment" >"Two Look at Two" >"Goodbye and Keep Cold" >"The Freedom of the Moon" >"The Lovely Shall Be Choosers" >"The Birthplace" >"The Strong Are Saying Nothing" >"In Dives Dive" >"November" >"Too Anxious For Rivers" >"A Cliff Dwelling" >"A Cabin in the Clearing" >"Peril of Hope" >"Our Doom to Bloom" > >Among "uncollected" poems: > >"The Parlor Joke" >"Winter has beaten summer in fight . . ." >"Let's Not Think" >====================== > >And if you're interested in praise and argument and explanation, >there's a lot of good criticism out there, too. Richard Poirier's >*Frost: The Work of Knowing* is for my money the best single thing >on Frost in the scholarly vein, making a real case for Frost's >intellectual complexity. Jarrell's essays are also extremely good, >especially his one on "Home Burial." And William Pritchard's book on >Frost, and and and. . . . There have also been enough biographical >treatments correcting and complicating Lawrance Thompson's >hatchet-job biography that the tiresome repetition of the myth of >Frost as simply "a bad man" really ought to be retired for good. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Tue Nov 3 21:59:24 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:59:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would > agree with you? ============== Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to include you, Mark. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 22:02:20 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:02:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> Message-ID: So you think that anyone who's undecided will agree with you if only they understand? I think my other points were more interesting, but c'est la vie. At 09:59 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would >>agree with you? >============== > >Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least >interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect >that to include you, Mark. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From chris Tue Nov 3 22:33:39 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:33:39 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 22:46:45 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:46:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CF0B.3030 207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Apparently not quite universal. > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, >> is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should >> think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. >> >> --Bob G. I was going by the rational definition of "universal" as "embracing a major part or the greatest portion (as of mankind)." I meant mankind, which would universally be taken as clear--except by rabbits. So, tell me how Frost might not have been writing about his having once been sincerely entranced, as most people, are by falling snow. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 22:55:51 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:55:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AF0FB47.2060909@nut-n-but.net> > But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone > who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, > pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual > chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in his > groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one does > not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." That's ridiculous. You have to quote AND kneel. Aside from that, why is no one, at this of all discussion groups, not saying what differentiates Frost from all his contemporaries in this country is his formal craftsmanship, and that counts. "Stopping by Woods" is almost impossible good from the point of view of formal craftsmanship. It may use more standard formal poetic devices successfully than any poem in English--however a few of them may fail for the over-fastidious. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 23:05:16 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:05:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF0FD7C.7090900@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Whittier's "Snowbound"? I did read that once, but can't remember what I thought of it except that I didn't hate it. And, of course, I should have said that I was a sucker for just about anything with snow in it. From junction Tue Nov 3 23:08:49 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:08:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030 207@nut-n-but.net> <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: You have my permission to like the poem, Bob. At 10:46 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Apparently not quite universal. >> >>At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >>>I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >>>As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it >>>is, is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I >>>should think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. >>> >>>--Bob G. >I was going by the rational definition of "universal" as "embracing >a major part or the greatest portion (as of mankind)." I meant >mankind, which would universally be taken as clear--except by >rabbits. So, tell me how Frost might not have been writing about >his having once been sincerely entranced, as most people, are by falling snow. > >--Bob G. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 23:25:47 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, well, men's interests are featured at the top. ?You don't have to think about it! ?It's a no-brainer. ?In fact, sexism has primarily and historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining -- and that's exactly the point: ?this type of shit doesn't get called out and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that it's blatant or anything. ?We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can be disinterested. ?If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. ?Of course, we may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that "reality" - business as usual. ? And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that would "interest" you. ?Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? ?Are you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered 'interests"? ?Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's "interests" - correct? ? And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't "meaty" enough for you - why not? ?I bet if the top ten books were by all women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" ?But where's the "meat" to please here? ?I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. ? --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 3 23:43:53 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:43:53 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The bottom line is that I expect a list of "10 Best" to be the 10 Best books the author(s) could think of, regardless of gender. An abstract attachment to gender-balancing is unimportant to me unless it comes down, in the end, to the quality of the books. I have no more interest in creating a 50% split than I do creating a 100% share either way. It just seems to me that arguing in the abstract leads nowhere. If you think books are missing from the list that should be there, then why not tell us what they are? That would be an actual argument based on-- well-- books rather than a prediction of what might have happened (or not) based on a mathematical prediction. Maybe it's merely happenstance that the list was all male. Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's sexism, conscious or not. Maybe it's something in between. But the "should be" argument is incomplete, at least as far as you are making it. You are claiming the list must be biased by the numbers, but that doesn't mean it's biased in any meaningful sense of the term. So, yes, it isn't very interesting without more facts, just as abstract arguments about poetry are far less interesting than arguments about poems. Is it really wholly implausible that the honest-to-goodness 10 best books the writer read, regardless of the author's identity, happened to be written by men? Is it even terribly unlikely? I haven't read all the books on the list, but I have read 6 of them and can't think of a book written by a woman in the last year that I could honestly say was better. My problem is with the automatic case that a list of best books must be gender-balanced rather than assessed based on quality. If the assessment is based on quality and books were overlooked, I'd love to know what they are (in part so I can read them), because that changes the whole thing from an abstract theoretical supposition to something that can be chewed on. That's the meat. Incidentally, I doubt I would've noticed if the list had been composed of all women authors. I certainly wouldn't have thought it was a conspiracy. My reading over the last year has been, by a quick reckoning, about 40% women authors on average (definitely more than a third, definitely not as much as half), with many more female poet than male poets, but significantly fewer-- way fewer-- fiction and non-fiction authors. When I did the "fine fifteen" challenge a few months ago-- creating a list in 15 minutes (off the top of one' head) of the 15 books that stuck with me most-- the novels and short fiction lists had, by a mathematical analysis, too many males. The poetry list had 4/10 female authors. I don't happen to think that makes me a sexist. What I know for sure is that I'd have been lying if I artificially "balanced" the lists rather than honestly listing the books that were most important to me. c On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:25 PM, amy king wrote: > Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, > well, men's interests are featured at the top. You don't have to think > about it! It's a no-brainer. In fact, sexism has primarily and > historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining > -- and that's exactly the point: this type of shit doesn't get called out > and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women > (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point > it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that > it's blatant or anything. We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can > be disinterested. If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. Of course, we > may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as > representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that > "reality" - business as usual. > > And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that > would "interest" you. Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? Are > you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly > by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered > 'interests"? Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult > for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are > mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's > "interests" - correct? > > And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing > Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't > "meaty" enough for you - why not? I bet if the top ten books were by all > women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't > find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and > widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" But where's the > "meat" to please here? I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't > "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. > > > --- On *Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott * wrote: > > > This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books > that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, > there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. > > Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least > those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. > > c > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 00:29:24 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You called for a naming of names - what makes the six books by men you've read "better" than the any of the "40%" of books by women you've read recently? ?And have you read the "50,000" those ten were gleaned from? ?What are you basing your judgment of "better" on? ?The content? ?The writing styles? ?That Cheever's life is more interesting to you than, I don't know what you've read, Atwood's The Year of the Flood? ? What interests you isn't going to be posted and published prominently. ?But PW's reviews editors, plural, do have a responsibility to represent women's writing as being "of note" on a list that promotes the sales of books. ?Otherwise, we resort to the old economic model: ?men's tastes dictate where the money goes: ?back into men's pockets. ? Even if that means "artificially" considering what, beyond these mostly-male editors views, woman's book meets their "very best" criteria - and closely examining just what that criteria is. ?From first glance, it seems the primary criteria is that the content of these books must be about men's lives. ? "The titles, whittled down from the more than 50,000 volumes considered this year, were picked by the?PW?reviews editors to reflect the very best of 2009. Here,?PW?reviews the 10 books." And yes, going back to statistics again, because if we assume that half of the 50000 books are by women and that about half of the reading population is women, then at least a few of the "very best" books should be by women (I understand you don't like speculations based on statistics, alas) - so you're going to tell me that out of 50000 books published this year, not one woman writer wrote a book worthy of the top 10 "very best"? ?Based on what criteria do men write "better" books of note than even well known, long standing female authors? ?So it goes, yet again, this list teaches me and other readers that only men write "the very best" out of 50,000 books published this year. ?And yet, reading the summaries of these ten books, I can knock at least half of them off as books I would most likely not purchase and read - the war book, the feudal system book, the Cheever book (sorry!), the one about the dude heroin addict (I've known enough of them in real life that romanticizing their "struggle" just pisses me off), and the one about the British explorer. ?Call me biased, call me a "content" queen, but those stories of male angst and overcoming nature and the art of war just don't interest me greatly and, even if written in eloquent lovely prose, would certainly not make my list of "very best." ?I'd go out on a limb and speculate that a number of other women feel similarly. ?And yet, approx. 50% of the reading/writing population doesn't get a consideration in this list? ? Oh damn - I resorted to considering half of the population again via statistics. You see, I can't wrap my mind around how the "universal" male experience is all about ignoring statistics and calling those "kinds" of stories the "very best" when it comes to lists like this. ? For you, it's about what's "better" and more "interesting" to you - but what has historically been defined as "better" or "the very best" has been dominated by men's tastes, and many women have learned to conform to those tastes, backing off and shutting up even as lists reinforcing our inequality proliferates (or just our inability to write "the very best"), because what's "better" has been taught to us by a system that has always prominently featured and valued male writing -- just ask the literary canon, which has consequently tokenized women's words - "You'll make the list, girls - just not as high up! ?Your writing just isn't as good!". ?But according to who - what is "better" for you, Chris? ?Shall the male version of "better" always dominate top ten lists? ? And no surprise here of the "reviews editors" who chose "the very best" books - wonder what criteria for "best" would say about the realities and stories that "interested" them in their hunt for "the very best": SENIOR REVIEWS EDITORS Sarah F. Gold Mark Rotella REVIEWS EDITORS Peter Cannon ASSOCIATE REVIEWS EDITORS Jonathan Segura Marc Schultz --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: The bottom line is that I expect a list of "10 Best" to be the 10 Best books the author(s) could think of, regardless of gender. An abstract attachment to gender-balancing is unimportant to me unless it comes down, in the end, to the quality of the books. I have no more interest in creating a 50% split than I do creating a 100% share either way. It just seems to me that arguing in the abstract leads nowhere. If you think books are missing from the list that should be there, then why not tell us what they are? That would be an actual argument based on-- well-- books rather than a prediction of what might have happened (or not) based on a mathematical prediction. Maybe it's merely happenstance that the list was all male. Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's sexism, conscious or not. Maybe it's something in between. But the "should be" argument is incomplete, at least as far as you are making it. You are claiming the list must be biased by the numbers, but that doesn't mean it's biased in any meaningful sense of the term. So, yes, it isn't very interesting without more facts, just as abstract arguments about poetry are far less interesting than arguments about poems. Is it really wholly implausible that the honest-to-goodness 10 best books the writer read, regardless of the author's identity, happened to be written by men? Is it even terribly unlikely? I haven't read all the books on the list, but I have read 6 of them and can't think of a book written by a woman in the last year that I could honestly say was better. My problem is with the automatic case that a list of best books must be gender-balanced rather than assessed based on quality. If the assessment is based on quality and books were overlooked, I'd love to know what they are (in part so I can read them), because that changes the whole thing from an abstract theoretical supposition to something that can be chewed on. That's the meat. Incidentally, I doubt I would've noticed if the list had been composed of all women authors. I certainly wouldn't have thought it was a conspiracy. My reading over the last year has been, by a quick reckoning, about 40% women authors on average (definitely more than a third, definitely not as much as half), with many more female poet than male poets, but significantly fewer-- way fewer-- ?fiction and non-fiction authors. When I did the "fine fifteen" challenge a few months ago-- creating a list in 15 minutes (off the top of one' head) of the 15 books that stuck with me most-- the novels and short fiction lists had, by a mathematical analysis, too many males. The poetry list had 4/10 female authors. I don't happen to think that makes me a sexist. What I know for sure is that I'd have been lying if I artificially "balanced" the lists rather than honestly listing the books that were most important to me. c On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:25 PM, amy king wrote: Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, well, men's interests are featured at the top. ?You don't have to think about it! ?It's a no-brainer. ?In fact, sexism has primarily and historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining -- and that's exactly the point: ?this type of shit doesn't get called out and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that it's blatant or anything. ?We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can be disinterested. ?If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. ?Of course, we may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that "reality" - business as usual. ? And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that would "interest" you. ?Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? ?Are you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered 'interests"? ?Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's "interests" - correct? ? And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't "meaty" enough for you - why not? ?I bet if the top ten books were by all women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" ?But where's the "meat" to please here? ?I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. ? --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 06:30:51 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:30:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. From r_loden Wed Nov 4 07:05:58 2009 From: r_loden (Rachel Loden) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 04:05:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Nowak, Reid Gomez, and Rachel Loden on Class/War at Small Press Traffic in SF Message-ID: Mark Nowak, Reid Gomez, and Rachel Loden (with special guest Harsha Ram) on Class/War A reading with two (!) multimedia presentations Saturday, November 7 Small Press Traffic California College of the Arts San Francisco Campus Timken Hall 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, CA 7:30 p.m. http://www.sptraffic.org/html/events.htm Info: smallpresstraffic at gmail.com Mark Nowak is the author of Coal Mountain Elementary (Coffee House Press, 2009) and Shut Up Shut Down (Coffee House Press, 2004). He designs and facilitates ?poetry dialogues? with Ford autoworkers in the United States and South Africa (through the UAW and NUMSA), striking clerical workers (through AFSCME 3800), Muslim/Somali nurses and healthcare workers (through Rufaidah), and others. Reid G?mez is an urban raised Navajo from the Rock formerly known as Potrero Hill. She was the winner of the 1995 Astrea Lesbian Writers award and is the author of California Wasn?t Good For Us. She is currently finishing her novel, Urban Nizh?n?. Rachel Loden?s second full-length book, Dick of the Dead, was published by Ahsahta Press in May 2009. She is also the author of Hotel Imperium (Georgia), which was named one of the ten best poetry books of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle. Harsha Ram is Associate Professor of Slavic and Comparative Literatures at UC Berkeley and author of The Imperial Sublime: A Russian Poetics of Empire (University of Wisconsin Press, 2003). His most recent work is on the literary dialogue between Russia and Georgia and he has an ongoing interest in the relationship between poetry and political power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 06:57:40 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:57:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF16C34.9080809@nut-n-but.net> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 4 08:30:45 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:30:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] for the best single-authored monograph on American periodicals Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911040530j7e70455if2bf4b29fb104e04@mail.gmail.com> *>From:* Ellen Garvey [mailto:ellengarvey at earthlink.net] *>Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:43 PM The Research Society for American Periodicals is pleased to announce a $1,500 book prize for the best single-authored monograph on American periodicals by a pre-tenure, senior, or independent scholar published by an academic press between January 1, 2007 and December 1, 2009. The prize will be awarded at the American Literature Association (ALA) conference in San Francisco, CA, May 27-30, 2010. Books will be judged by a peer review of three scholars chosen by the RSAP Advisory Board. Applicants should submit a registration form (see details, below) and THREE hard copies of their book to Jean Lee Cole, Department of English, Loyola University Maryland, 4501 N. Charles St., Baltimore, MD. 21210, by December 1, 2009. The winner and two honorable mentions will be notified by January 15, 2010 and will be recognized at an RSAP-sponsored panel/event at ALA. Applicants to the EBSCOhost-RSAP prize must be current members of RSAP when they submit their books. *To join the Research Society for American Periodicals, and to download a copy of the prize registration form, please consult the Society?s web site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~ellengarvey/index1.html *(Note that joining the RSAP-L list does not constitute joining RSAP). Ellen Gruber Garvey, Ph.D. Professor Department of English New Jersey City University Visit the Research Society for American Periodicals website at: http://home.earthlink.net/~ellengarvey/index1.html email: ellengarvey at earthlink.net -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 4 08:55:04 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:55:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> You're operating on the assumption that the PW editors would either consciously set out to be sexist -- hmm, we have contempt for women, so let's eliminate all the women authors from consideration -- or they would have no sexist bias at all. Bob Grumman wrote: > I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would > commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to > antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? > > Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care > what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books > of the year? > > I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any > collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or > philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of > less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on > previous lists? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 09:01:01 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Bob, Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist act? ?That's the beauty of sexism: ?it's about enacting the long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. ?It can be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. ?You can study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. ?And of course, economics can offer you statistical evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. ?Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. ?But I guess I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. ?Here's another shocker: ?even I, and other women, can be sexist. ?We learn it well and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. ? It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! ?But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how their picks for the best books came to be all by men! ?They were just innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. ?And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are all about men and their lives. ? ? As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. ?You'll have to do your own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San Francisco today! But one more for the road: Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the boundaries of contemporary poetics? ?Did he intentionally edit a book in which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" innovators are mostly male? ?Either way you slice it... CONTEMPORARY POETICS "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, for the Twenty-First Century" Edited by?Louis Armand ISBN?0-8101-2359-2?(paperback). 384pp. Publisher:?Northwestern University Press, Evanston. http://nupress.northwestern.edu Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics of the contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the historical advent of?concrete poetry?to the current technopoetics of cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a mere marker of present-day?literary activity, their work addresses the limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with?Stephane Mallarme?in the late nineteenth century--that engages concretely with what it means to be contemporary. Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to?Wallace Stevens?and?Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete poetics" to the "codework" of?Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the field." --Michael Golston "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin CONTENTS 1. END GAME Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents 2. PRECURSORS Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing Michel Delville & Andrew Norris:?Frank Zappa,?Captain Beefheart, and the?Secret History?of?Maximalism 3. CONJUNCTIONS Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being Keston Sutherland: Vagueness DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found 4. CURSORS Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium Darren Tofts:?Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework Alan Sondheim: Codeworld 5.?TRANSPOSITIONS Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics and the Differential Text Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the Other.?www.litterariapragensia.com _______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm? --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act.? PW is completely commercial.? They don't want to antagonize their female writers.? What was their motive? Aside from that, so what?? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think? are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way.? Can anyone provide it????Was any collection of poetry on it?? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it?? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500?? Does PW make up such a list every year?? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 10:24:50 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:24:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not given to political correctness (or any other kind of correctness), but I have to agree. Changes in the status of women in the US, and in the way women's issues are considered, have been dramatic but far from complete. The unconscious or semiconscious biases that we all carry with us are persistent, a matter of generations of awareness for change to happen. In this regard sexism is like racism--change in the laws, difficult as it is, is the easy part. Awareness of our racial attitudes is the ongoing internal and social dialogue. Men and women--certainly straight men and women--will always indulge in crude jokes among themselves--it's how we comfort ourselves about the irreducible difficulties of living together. Censoring such behavior won't work and is probably beside the point--think of it as a carnavalesque time-out. What has to happen--what's been happening very slowly--is a change in our own awarenesses during the hard work of daily life. It's incomprehensible to me that the compilers of the list, having compiled it, don't appear to have asked themselves "where are the women?" This isn't a matter of setting quotas, but of awareness. One might still compile the same list, but I think an explanation for the absence would be inevitable. The American avant garde--hey, let's not argue about the term--has been until recently something of a boy's club. Nonetheless, Armand's book is shocking. Couldn't he have solicited an article about Alice Notley or Rochelle Owens if none was spontaneously offered? How could an editor be so lazy? At the very least, as with the PW list, an explanation is in order. My Cuban anthology would seem to under-represent women. It's a different culture, and the book tries to map what has been, not what one would hope had been. I deal with the discrepancy near the beginning of my introduction--how could one not? It's uncomfortable to do so, but less uncomfortable than not doing so. Doesn't this come down to a piece of "the unexamined life is not worth living? Best, Mark At 09:01 AM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a >sexist act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the >long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you >"mean" to or not. It can be intentional in that men can do so to >protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn >to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. You can >study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. And >of course, economics can offer you statistical evidence that you may >just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets favored - >women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men >do. Men statistically move higher faster in specific >industries. But I guess I'm just using stats again where no one >intended to be sexist. Here's another shocker: even I, and other >women, can be sexist. We learn it well and are often coerced to >parrot it to please men. > >It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to >be repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't >mean it! But that examination typically falls in the laps of those >damned feminists because why should the mostly male reviews editors >at PW have to wonder how their picks for the best books came to be >all by men! They were just innocently picking "the very best!" no >matter what *their* criteria were. And as I said, the main criteria >seems to be that the books' contents are all about men and their lives. > >As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do >your own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way >to San Francisco today! > >But one more for the road: > >Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the >boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a >book in which so few women are represented or was it just that his >"very best" innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... > > >CONTEMPORARY POETICS > >"Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & >Practice, for the Twenty-First Century" > >Edited by Louis Armand > >ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. > >Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. > >http://nupress.northwestern.edu > >Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of >literary study--a field that in fact shares territory with >philology, aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even >cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of critical writings that, >taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics of the >contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and >distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of >what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the >historical advent of concrete poetry to the current technopoetics of >cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own >time, as a mere marker of present-day literary activity, their work >addresses the limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with >Stephane Mallarme in the late nineteenth century--that engages >concretely with what it means to be contemporary. > >Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the >textual apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's >critical-historical treatment of "writing after" Bernstein and other >proponents of language poetry, provides an itinerary of contemporary >poetics in terms of both theory and practice. The other essays >consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the histories or >prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to >Wallace Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more >strictly theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement >with rhetoric, prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; >"cursors," which points to the open possibilities of invention, from >Augusto de Campos's "concrete poetics" to the "codework" of Alan >Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining the limits of poetic >invention by way of technology. > >"An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of >contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in >the field." --Michael Golston > >"Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several >others easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin > >CONTENTS > >1. END GAME >Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? >Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents > >2. PRECURSORS >Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek >Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism >Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated >Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As >DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing >Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and >the Secret History of Maximalism > >3. CONJUNCTIONS >Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being >Keston Sutherland: Vagueness >DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & >Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes >Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found > >4. CURSORS >Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto >Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium >Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext >Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics >J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life >McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework >Alan Sondheim: Codeworld > >5. TRANSPOSITIONS >Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext >Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap >Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage >Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations >Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital >Poetics and the Differential Text > >Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural >Theory in the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His >books include Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: >Discourses of the Other. >www.litterariapragensia.com > >_______ > >NEW BOOK > >Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm > >--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: > >From: Bob Grumman >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM > >I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would >commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want >to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? > >Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly >care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten >best books of the year? > >I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any >collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or >philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of >less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on >previous lists? > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From alexdickow9 Wed Nov 4 11:55:15 2009 From: alexdickow9 (Alexander Dickow) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] bias In-Reply-To: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Definitely a biased list. The most interesting writers currently writing happen to be women, especially in poetry. Go look at the online journals and count the names: I think the conclusion is inevitable. But none of them, or very few, would be likely to be placed on lists like the one under discussion, since most of them don't have widespread institutional recognition. With a few exceptions, obviously. But I think I'm with Bad Bob when it comes to institutionally constructed lists like this one. Speaking of this, I REALLY need a reviewer of a book of poetry by a woman, for an issue of Ekleksographia I'm putting together. Two-four double-spaced pages, on short notice (within two-three weeks maximum). A connection to France is preferable, but not required. Any takers? I'd be grateful.... Back to lurking (and working), Amicalement, Alex "Still Here" Dickow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Wed Nov 4 12:10:09 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:10:09 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] bias In-Reply-To: <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Definitely a biased list. The most interesting writers currently writing > happen to be women, especially in poetry. I think I agree, at least when it comes to poetry. Not that ALL the most interesting writers of contemporary poetry are women, but many of them are. Scanning online journals doesn't really reinforce that point, though-- as far as I can tell women and men are both represented in significant numbers. But it's that word "especially" that subtly references the very problem... recognizing that the proportions vary... and then when you put together a list that mixes genres, the mathematics change considerably. c From cvoisine Wed Nov 4 12:26:39 2009 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:26:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate response to modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that modernism was attempting to address and grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism involved with the modernist quandary which was, in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as every lyric poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this subjectivity is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of the commentator and not of the station? disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a remedy has been the recent solution; many post-modern techniques depend upon it. As another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing the problem of point of view that way. Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private sensibility while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of a broader world. Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of personal experience, but the emphasis is on the casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an intense and personal voice. Thus we understand something about "the human condition" without relying on confession; a particular personality is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I crave. Connie On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham wrote: > > On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree with > you? > > ============== > > Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least > interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to > include you, Mark. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 14:19:34 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:19:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tomorrow_and_Friday=3A__Ana_Bo=C5=BEi?= =?utf-8?q?=C4=8Devi=C4=87_and_Amy_King_-_November_5th_and_6th_-_San_Franc?= =?utf-8?q?isco=2C_CA?= Message-ID: <940333.71599.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thursday, November 5, 3:30 pm @ the Poetry Center -- HUM 512, SFSU, free ~? Friday, November 6, 7:00 pm @ the Green Arcade -- 1680 Market (at Gough), free http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/eventCalendar.html ~~ Ana Bo?i?evi? emigrated to NYC from Croatia in 1997. Her first book of poetry isStars of the Night Commute (Tarpaulin Sky Press, Fall 2009). She's also the author of new chapbooks The Stars on the 7:18 to Penn (Dusie Press) and God, Sebastian, Amy (Flying Guillotine Press), as well as Document (Octopus Books, 2007) and Morning News (Kitchen Press, 2006). For more, visit http://nightcommute.org. Amy King is the author of I?m the Man Who Loves You andAntidotes for an Alibi, both from Blazevox Books, The People Instruments (Pavement Saw Press), and forthcoming, Slaves to Do These Things and I Want to Make You Safe. She moderates the Poetics List and the Women?s Poetry Listserv (WOMPO), and teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College. For more info, http://amyking.org. ? Together, they curate The Stain of Poetry: A Reading Series in Brooklyn, NY - http://stainofpoetry.com ___________ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 4 14:25:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:25:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911041125q2c12c46by488870ba10274653@mail.gmail.com> I erroneously sent this answer to the Buffalo... I should be more careful: I would like to highlight the following by Amy King: Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. This is a piercing analysis that can be applied to infinite kinds of suppression. We have all experimented the hypocrisy of those who have not committed the act nor insulted directly - in closed circuits since when we were children - and with their detached and superior candor have increased our feeling of estrangement. I am sure that you are following me here with personal experiences. Foucault analyzes the 'social discourse' as much as he can, and both Foucault and Derrida are highly attentive to the dynamics that accompany easy statements, and to their disastrous results. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:01 PM, amy king wrote: > Bob, > > Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist > act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running > favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can > be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also > be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are > conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, > theater, art, etc. And of course, economics can offer you statistical > evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets > favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. > Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. But I guess > I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. Here's > another shocker: even I, and other women, can be sexist. We learn it well > and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. > > It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be > repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! > But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists > because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how > their picks for the best books came to be all by men! They were just > innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. > And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are > all about men and their lives. > > As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do your own > research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San Francisco > today! > > But one more for the road: > > Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the > boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a book in > which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" > innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... > > > CONTEMPORARY POETICS > > "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, > for the Twenty-First Century" > > Edited by Louis Armand > > ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. > > Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. > > http://nupress.northwestern.edu > > Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary > study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, aesthetics,cultural > theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of > critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics > of the contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and distinguished > theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of what might constitute > "contemporary poetics," ranging from the historical advent of concrete > poetry to the current technopoetics of cyberspace. Concerned with a > poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a mere marker of present-day literary > activity, their work addresses the limits of a writing > "practice"--beginning with Stephane Mallarme in the late nineteenth > century--that engages concretely with what it means to be contemporary. > > Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual > apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of > "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides > an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. > The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the > histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to Wallace > Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly > theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, > prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points > to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete > poetics" to the "codework" of Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," > defining the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. > > "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of > contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the > field." --Michael Golston > > "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others > easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin > > CONTENTS > > 1. END GAME > Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? > Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents > > 2. PRECURSORS > Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek > Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism > Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated > Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As > DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing > Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and the Secret > History of Maximalism > > 3. CONJUNCTIONS > Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being > Keston Sutherland: Vagueness > DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & > Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes > Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found > > 4. CURSORS > Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto > Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium > Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext > Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics > J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life > McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework > Alan Sondheim: Codeworld > > 5. TRANSPOSITIONS > Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext > Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap > Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage > Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations > Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics > and the Differential Text > > Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in > the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include > Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the > Other. www.litterariapragensia.com > > _______* > > NEW BOOK > > Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm * > > --- On *Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman * wrote: > > > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM > > > I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a > sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize > their female writers. What was their motive? > > Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what > the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the > year? > > I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection > of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any > book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make > up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 14:47:51 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:47:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.co m> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >one way i have come to think of frost (having >spent the summer reintroducing myself to his >work) is that his is an alternate response to >modernism. he was there, he heard the problems >that modernism was attempting to address and >grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism >involved with the modernist quandary which was, >in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private >experiential space that risks?as every lyric >poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming >solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal >confession (a series of events) and/or a >particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. >To be accountable for this subjectivity is the >honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >the commentator and not of the station? >disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a >remedy has been the recent solution; many >post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, >is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing >the problem of point of view that way. > >Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) >through a combination of directness and >excision, to sustain a complex and even private >sensibility while cracking this self open to >encompass the affairs of a broader world. >Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >personal experience, but the emphasis is on the >casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an >intense and personal voice. Thus we understand >something about "the human condition" without >relying on confession; a particular personality >is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > >To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to >tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic >lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded >in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing >specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a >philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > > >Connie > > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham ><grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: > >On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Do you really think that if only they >>understood everyone would agree with you? >============== > >Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to >"anyone who's at least interested in the >possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to include you, Mark. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Wed Nov 4 14:55:48 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:55:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose lifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" Pound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by Frost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." On 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having >> spent the summer reintroducing myself to his >> work) is that his is an alternate response to >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems >> that modernism was attempting to address and >> grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism >> involved with the modernist quandary which was, >> in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private >> experiential space that risks?as every lyric >> poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming >> solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal >> confession (a series of events) and/or a >> particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. >> To be accountable for this subjectivity is the >> honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >> the commentator and not of the station? >> disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a >> remedy has been the recent solution; many >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, >> is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing >> the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) >> through a combination of directness and >> excision, to sustain a complex and even private >> sensibility while cracking this self open to >> encompass the affairs of a broader world. >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the >> casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an >> intense and personal voice. Thus we understand >> something about "the human condition" without >> relying on confession; a particular personality >> is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to >> tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic >> lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded >> in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing >> specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a >> philosophical largeness, one that I crave. >> >> >> Connie >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From cvoisine Wed Nov 4 15:17:23 2009 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:17:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de80911041217i47783226o66479668640599b3@mail.gmail.com> i adore stevens... c On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic > monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > > one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer >> reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate response to >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that modernism was attempting >> to address and grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism involved with >> the modernist quandary which was, in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as >> every lyric poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too >> reliant on the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular >> sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this subjectivity >> is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of the commentator and >> not of the station? disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a remedy has >> been the recent solution; many post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate >> the speaker, managing the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of >> directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private sensibility >> while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of a broader world. >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of personal experience, but the >> emphasis is on the casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an intense and >> personal voice. Thus we understand something about "the human condition" >> without relying on confession; a particular personality is not the subject >> of these kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to tackle some of these issues >> of the post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded in rural >> New England, also avoid a narrowing specificity of autobiography, thus >> achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I crave. >> >> >> Connie >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham < >> grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: >> >> On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree >>> with you? >>> >> ============== >> >> Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least >> interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to >> include you, Mark. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Connie Voisine >> Associate Professor of English >> New Mexico State University >> cvoisine at nmsu.edu >> 575-646-2027 >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Wed Nov 4 15:19:38 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:19:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911041219t32445c09leb69d2496e3c08a@mail.gmail.com> Mark, a huge 'ditto' to all that you and Amy wrote [below]. Sexism, racism, ageism, classism---pervade all of us. Hence, for example, I've internalised sexism; that is, as a female, I'm sexist against myself and other females [as well as males]. It would seem, then, that all of us would be wise to be open to pointings-out---without feeling the stigma of their being personal pointings-out. As well, we all can become, increasingly, aware of our reactions, and open to various ways of creatively counteracting them. Best, Judy 2009/11/4 Mark Weiss > I'm not given to political correctness (or any other kind of correctness), > but I have to agree. Changes in the status of women in the US, and in the > way women's issues are considered, have been dramatic but far from complete. > The unconscious or semiconscious biases that we all carry with us are > persistent, a matter of generations of awareness for change to happen. In > this regard sexism is like racism--change in the laws, difficult as it is, > is the easy part. Awareness of our racial attitudes is the ongoing internal > and social dialogue. > > Men and women--certainly straight men and women--will always indulge in > crude jokes among themselves--it's how we comfort ourselves about the > irreducible difficulties of living together. Censoring such behavior won't > work and is probably beside the point--think of it as a carnavalesque > time-out. What has to happen--what's been happening very slowly--is a change > in our own awarenesses during the hard work of daily life. > > It's incomprehensible to me that the compilers of the list, having compiled > it, don't appear to have asked themselves "where are the women?" This isn't > a matter of setting quotas, but of awareness. One might still compile the > same list, but I think an explanation for the absence would be inevitable. > > The American avant garde--hey, let's not argue about the term--has been > until recently something of a boy's club. Nonetheless, Armand's book is > shocking. Couldn't he have solicited an article about Alice Notley or > Rochelle Owens if none was spontaneously offered? How could an editor be so > lazy? > > At the very least, as with the PW list, an explanation is in order. My > Cuban anthology would seem to under-represent women. It's a different > culture, and the book tries to map what has been, not what one would hope > had been. I deal with the discrepancy near the beginning of my > introduction--how could one not? It's uncomfortable to do so, but less > uncomfortable than not doing so. > > Doesn't this come down to a piece of "the unexamined life is not worth > living? > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 09:01 AM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist >> act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running >> favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can >> be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also >> be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are >> conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, >> theater, art, etc. And of course, economics can offer you statistical >> evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets >> favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. >> Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. But I guess >> I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. Here's >> another shocker: even I, and other women, can be sexist. We learn it well >> and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. >> >> It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be >> repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! >> But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists >> because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how >> their picks for the best books came to be all by men! They were just >> innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. >> And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are >> all about men and their lives. >> >> As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do your >> own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San >> Francisco today! >> >> But one more for the road: >> >> Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the >> boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a book in >> which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" >> innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... >> >> >> CONTEMPORARY POETICS >> >> "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, >> for the Twenty-First Century" >> >> Edited by Louis Armand >> >> ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. >> >> Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. >> >> http://nupress.northwestern.edu >> >> >> Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary >> study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, >> aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume >> gathers a body of critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate >> a possible poetics of the contemporary. In these essays, the most >> interesting and distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the >> contours of what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the >> historical advent of concrete poetry to the current technopoetics of >> cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a >> mere marker of present-day literary activity, their work addresses the >> limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with Stephane Mallarme in the late >> nineteenth century--that engages concretely with what it means to be >> contemporary. >> >> Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual >> apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of >> "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides >> an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. >> The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the >> histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to >> Wallace Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly >> theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, >> prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points >> to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete >> poetics" to the "codework" of Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining >> the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. >> >> "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of >> contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the >> field." --Michael Golston >> >> "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others >> easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin >> >> CONTENTS >> >> 1. END GAME >> Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? >> Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents >> >> 2. PRECURSORS >> Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek >> Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism >> Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated >> Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As >> DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing >> Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and the >> Secret History of Maximalism >> >> 3. CONJUNCTIONS >> Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being >> Keston Sutherland: Vagueness >> DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & >> Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes >> Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found >> >> 4. CURSORS >> Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto >> Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium >> Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext >> Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics >> J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life >> McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework >> Alan Sondheim: Codeworld >> >> 5. TRANSPOSITIONS >> Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext >> Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap >> Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage >> Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations >> Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics >> and the Differential Text >> >> Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in >> the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include >> Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the >> Other. www.litterariapragensia.com >> >> >> _______ >> >> NEW BOOK >> >> Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm >> >> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM >> >> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a >> sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize >> their female writers. What was their motive? >> >> Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care >> what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of >> the year? >> >> I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any >> collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy >> on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? >> Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip Wed Nov 4 15:35:20 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:35:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Frost's narrative poems previous to 1936 are some of the best of the century. Stevens, by the way, did something very like the dramatic monologue: "Comedian in Letter C" and "Le Monocle. . . ." (Maybe the listener was not as delineated as in Browning, but perhaps--though without the "you"--as much as in Eliot's "Prufrock.") I closely looked through Stevens' letters once to see if he ever spoke of other writer only in glowing terms. There was one: Marianne Moore. From derekmotion Wed Nov 4 17:34:42 2009 From: derekmotion (Derek Motion) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:34:42 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry - Blog Battle to the Death Message-ID: <8F8A48F3-9CAD-4F58-A9A1-6F56457A3C5D@aapt.net.au> Does the poetry world need more bloggers, or more quality bloggers (ie. less)? I am currently attempting to defeat another Australian poet, & force him to abandon his blog forever. You can help me to win this contest by leaving a comment here: http://typingspace.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/motion-silences-curnow-blog-battle/ Of course I know that by drawing your attention to this, I am also drawing your attention to Curnow's blog, & you may decide his is infinitely superior. This is a tiny risk I am willing to take. His entry is located here: http://ncurnow.blogspot.com/2009/10/curnow-vs-motion-blog-battle.html I will trust you to make the right decision. regards Derek Motion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 4 20:41:49 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:41:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> For me Frost is beyond taste or preference. I consider it a kind of critical blindspot not to recognize the greatness in Frost, no matter one's predilections. Dramatic monologues don't need to be resorted to, do they. They are a type of pome, like the formal meditation: Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose ifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" ound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by rost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." n 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > one way i have come to think of frost (having > spent the summer reintroducing myself to his > work) is that his is an alternate response to > modernism. he was there, he heard the problems > that modernism was attempting to address and > grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism > involved with the modernist quandary which was, > in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the > tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private > experiential space that risks?as every lyric > poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming > solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal > confession (a series of events) and/or a > particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. > To be accountable for this subjectivity is the > honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of > the commentator and not of the station? > disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a > remedy has been the recent solution; many > post-modern techniques depend upon it. As > another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, > is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing > the problem of point of view that way. > > Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) > through a combination of directness and > excision, to sustain a complex and even private > sensibility while cracking this self open to > encompass the affairs of a broader world. > Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of > personal experience, but the emphasis is on the > casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an > intense and personal voice. Thus we understand > something about "the human condition" without > relying on confession; a particular personality > is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > > To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to > tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic > lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded > in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing > specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a > philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > > > Connie > > =================================================== avid Graham rahamd at ripon.edu ome Page: ttp://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: ttp://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html =================================================== ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 21:02:16 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:02:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I have a few of those religious beliefs, too, and those who don't accept them are doomed to outer darkness. But I try not to say that too often, or people might think me a bit self-righteous. Of course I could say what I truly believe, that anything beyond a mild admiration for Frost reflects a critical blindspot. What did the guy say? "Now you must change your life." Mark At 08:41 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >For me Frost is beyond taste or preference. I >consider it a kind of critical blindspot not to >recognize the greatness in Frost, no matter one's predilections. >Dramatic monologues don't need to be resorted >to, do they. They are a type of pome, like the >formal meditation: Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour. >Finnegan > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Graham >To: NewPoetry >Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:55 pm >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet > > >I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose >lifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" >Pound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. > >Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by >Frost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." > > >On 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without > resorting to dramatic monologues, > > > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > > > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having > >> spent the summer reintroducing myself to his > >> work) is that his is an alternate response to > >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems > >> that modernism was attempting to address and > >> grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism > >> involved with the modernist quandary which was, > >> in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the > >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private > >> experiential space that risks???as every lyric > >> poet from Keats on down has noted???becoming > >> solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal > >> confession (a series of events) and/or a > >> particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. > >> To be accountable for this subjectivity is the > >> honorable thing to do, a ??these are the views of > >> the commentator and not of the station?? > >> disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a > >> remedy has been the recent solution; many > >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As > >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, > >> is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing > >> the problem of point of view that way. > >> > >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) > >> through a combination of directness and > >> excision, to sustain a complex and even private > >> sensibility while cracking this self open to > >> encompass the affairs of a broader world. > >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of > >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the > >> casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an > >> intense and personal voice. Thus we understand > >> something about "the human condition" without > >> relying on confession; a particular personality > >> is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > >> > >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to > >> tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic > >> lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded > >> in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing > >> specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a > >> philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > >> > >> > >> Connie > >> > >> > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >==================================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 4 21:26:42 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:26:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF237E2.70907@opus40.org> Why should dramatic monologues be considered something one has to resort to? Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic > monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer >> reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate >> response to modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that >> modernism was attempting to address and grew weary (as i see it) with >> the romanticism involved with the modernist quandary which was, in >> the end, a problem of subjectivity--the tendency of the lyric to >> inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as every lyric poet >> from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too reliant on >> the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular >> sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this >> subjectivity is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >> the commentator and not of the station? disclaimer. Formal >> self-consciousness as a remedy has been the recent solution; many >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As another strategy, >> fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, >> managing the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of >> directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private >> sensibility while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of >> a broader world. Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the casting of thought, >> ideas made vibrant by an intense and personal voice. Thus we >> understand something about "the human condition" without relying on >> confession; a particular personality is not the subject of these >> kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to tackle some of these >> issues of the post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while >> grounded in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing specificity of >> autobiography, thus achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I >> crave. >> >> >> Connie >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham >> <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: >> >> On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>> Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would >>> agree with you? >> ============== >> >> Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least >> interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect >> that to include you, Mark. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Connie Voisine >> Associate Professor of English >> New Mexico State University >> cvoisine at nmsu.edu >> 575-646-2027 >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University > of California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction Wed Nov 4 21:48:57 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:48:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <4AF237E2.70907@opus40.org> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> <4AF237E2.70907@opus40.org> Message-ID: Because the sand is so nice there. It's really a matter of what kind of dramatic monologue. Frost's seem to me dependent on cliched period stage setting. They're illustrator art. I don't like Edwin Arlington Robinson, or Masters, either. And I know that Frost, when he's on, is a lot better than they are, but they share a taste for the illustrative. But hey, mine is definitely a minority opinion. Why should anyone care this much that one poet doesn't like one of their heroes? We've really got to the point that we're merely trading assertions. Should be time to go on to something else. Mark At 09:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >Why should dramatic monologues be considered something one has to resort to? > >Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> >>Check out Stevens, then, who does it without >>resorting to dramatic monologues, >> >>At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >> >>>one way i have come to think of frost (having >>>spent the summer reintroducing myself to his >>>work) is that his is an alternate response to >>>modernism. he was there, he heard the problems >>>that modernism was attempting to address and >>>grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism >>>involved with the modernist quandary which >>>was, in the end, a problem of >>>subjectivity--the tendency of the lyric to >>>inhabit a private experiential space that >>>risks?as every lyric poet from Keats on down >>>has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too reliant >>>on the personal confession (a series of >>>events) and/or a particular sensibility as the >>>anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this >>>subjectivity is the honorable thing to do, a >>>?these are the views of the commentator and >>>not of the station? disclaimer. Formal >>>self-consciousness as a remedy has been the >>>recent solution; many post-modern techniques >>>depend upon it. As another strategy, >>>fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to >>>dislocate the speaker, managing the problem of point of view that way. >>> >>>Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) >>>through a combination of directness and >>>excision, to sustain a complex and even >>>private sensibility while cracking this self >>>open to encompass the affairs of a broader >>>world. Through a quality of reserve, we get an >>>echo of personal experience, but the emphasis >>>is on the casting of thought, ideas made >>>vibrant by an intense and personal voice. Thus >>>we understand something about "the human >>>condition" without relying on confession; a >>>particular personality is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. >>> >>>To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to >>>tackle some of these issues of the >>>post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, >>>while grounded in rural New England, also >>>avoid a narrowing specificity of >>>autobiography, thus achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I crave. >>> >>> >>>Connie >>> >>> >>>On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham >>><grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: >>> >>>On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>>>Do you really think that if only they >>>>understood everyone would agree with you? >>>============== >>> >>>Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to >>>"anyone who's at least interested in the >>>possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to include you, Mark. >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>>David Graham >>>grahamd at ripon.edu >>> >>>Home Page: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>>Poetry Library: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> >>>========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Connie Voisine >>>Associate Professor of English >>>New Mexico State University >>>cvoisine at nmsu.edu >>>575-646-2027 >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>Forthcoming in November 2009. >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 22:09:00 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:09:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AF241CC.7040709@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > You're operating on the assumption that the PW editors would either > consciously set out to be sexist -- hmm, we have contempt for women, > so let's eliminate all the women authors from consideration -- or they > would have no sexist bias at all. > Nah, I am assuming that the PW editors would either consciously behave in a manner that Amy considers sexist or they would not. I further claim that the victory of feminism in just about all aspects of American culture makes it highly unlikely that they would do this. As for degrees of sexist bias, no healthy person is without sexist bias, but I don't think some normal degree of sexist bias makes one a sexist. I also believe that one can do something that feminists will consider sexist without being a sexist. What is most to the main point here, though, is that I see no way Amy can automatically assume the PW editors are sexists--unless there is some validated record of their agreeing to spurn female authors this time around, or the like. In other words, there is no way to tell whether or not they sincerely believed all ten of the best books published this year were by men or not. Of course, as I'm sure feminists would argue, the editors' belief, sincere or not, was wrong, and therefore sexist. In that case, however, the feminists need to do more than simply call the PW editors sexist. They have to compare books by women they thought better than one or more books in the PW top ten and show how the women's books were indeed better. For me--as it seems to me for Chris--imputing immorality to the editors seems . . . well, not as bad as a white using bad black slang, but an uncivilized way to go. If you think crappo books were on the list, name them and say why they are crappo; if you think superior books were not on the list, name them and say why they are superior. Incidentally, can anyone list the books the PW editors chose. I know of the Cheever biography, that's all. I'd hate to think a biography of a second-rater like he might be one of the year's ten best books, but it's possible. Note: I have no idea what the ten best books of 2009 might be. I don't keep track of publication dates. I remain confident that more books never mentioned in PW will seem to later generations top ten books than those on the PW list. To repeat a thought I've posted here more than once: why not a list of the top ten books of 1999? When people have had time to read more of the books of that year and think about them? Now for some fun, kids, to try to reverse the mood of this thread, here's a Great Idea: find out how tall the authors of the top ten PW books are. I'll bet they're all over six feet tall! No, wait. They're probably all under five feet seven. It would be interesting if they were all about the same height, something the PW editors couldn't be expected to know. I had this idea because twenty or more years ago I read a pop psychology article about a researcher who had studied successful men and women and found that the most successful men (by his standards--money and status, primarily) were generally between six one and six three, the women generally tall, also, although I forget the range--probably something like between five seven and five nine. Two thinks comic about this: I was at the time six two-and-a-half. And the deep thinkers in the article attributed the survey's findings to people's being indoctrinated from their early years on that tall people are superior to short people. No hint that anyone wondered if maybe there was some reasonable link between tallness (like its being a sign, in general, of good health and superior physical strength) and success. Yes, I do believe that being my height (but not too much taller) is an advantage; but so are certain other heights. And, of course, of course, of course, there are many many many other attributes that probably contribute to success, like perfect pitch, etc. And it takes all kinds. Shorties can do things tall people can't, for instance. Hmmm, have I just started a new fracas? No matter: all the studies show that people who start fracases are superior to those who deplore them. --Bob From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 22:24:40 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:24:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens In-Reply-To: <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu><4D33BC2D-ACF2 -48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> Considering how many fans Stevens has here, and unfans Logan has, I'm surprised no one has brought up Logan's silly (though at times interesting) take on Stevens in the latest but one issue of /The New Criterion./ I was especially amused by Logan's condescension toward what he considers Stevens's pretensions as a philosopher. As if Stevens wasn't ten times more subtle and astute a thinker about philosophy than Logan. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Wed Nov 4 22:29:33 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 22:29:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/2009 9:10:57 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Of course, as I'm sure feminists would argue, the editors' belief, > sincere or not, was wrong, and therefore sexist. In that case, however, > the feminists need to do more than simply call the PW editors sexist. > They have to compare books by women they thought better than one or more > books in the PW top ten and show how the women's books were indeed better. According to the latest New York Times Book Review I read, the most influential author (whose sales are apparently booming) in the last year was . . . Ayn Rand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Wed Nov 4 23:18:20 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 23:18:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/2009 8:02:48 PM Central Standard Time, junction at earthlink.net writes: > > > Yeah, I have a few of those religious beliefs, > too, and those who don't accept them are doomed > to outer darkness. But I try not to say that too > often, or people might think me a bit self-righteous. > > Of course I could say what I truly believe, that > anything beyond a mild admiration for Frost reflects a critical blindspot. > > What did the guy say? "Now you must change your life." > > Mark > For Frost, there are rabid admirers, admirers, mild admirers, and denigrators. I place myself in the second category. For what he staked out as his "territory" (both geographical and aesthetic) he succeeded as well as anyone has. It may have been a modest claim, to some minds, but it tells me a lot about what it has meant to be human in places (both geographically and personally) where I haven't personally ventured. Should we ask for more from a poet? If we should, what? That "guy" you mention was, after all, one of the most sycophantic poetic spongers who ever lived. He did write some great poems, to be sure, but to compare him to Frost on the matter of ethos is going to have him come up on the short side. I don't see RMR as any effective counterpoint to RLF. Frost was a pro and freely admitted it; Rilke kept trying to promote himself as some kind of enlightened amateur. Right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 4 23:23:11 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:23:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF241CC.7040709@nut-n-but.net> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> <4AF241CC.7040709@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF2532F.6030304@opus40.org> >> > > Nah, I am assuming that the PW editors would either consciously behave > in a manner that Amy considers sexist or they would not. True -- in fact a tautology -- but pointless. \ > I also believe that one can do something that feminists will consider > sexist without being a sexist. > Working from the theory that what do women know about sexism? We men > will decide what's sexist and what's not. > What is most to the main point here, though, is that I see no way Amy > can automatically assume the PW editors are sexists--unless there is > some validated record of their agreeing to spurn female authors this > time around, or the like. She can certainly make that assumption on the basis of initial evidence. > In other words, there is no way to tell whether or not they sincerely > believed all ten of the best books published this year were by men or > not. This is a ridiculous standard. By this standard, one could never assert racism, sexism or any other form of prejudice/. > > Of course, as I'm sure feminists would argue, the editors' belief, > sincere or not, was wrong, and therefore sexist. That's a huge and unfounded leap. I don't think it's reasonable to assert that feminists believe that wrong always equals sexist/ > In that case, however, the feminists need to do more than simply call > the PW editors sexist. They have to compare books by women they > thought better than one or more books in the PW top ten and show how > the women's books were indeed better. You can't even convince Mark that Frost is more than mediocre. There's no way to conclusively demonstrate that one book is better than another. A more reasonable test would be to compare this list with other lists made by the same editors in the past and look for a pattern. If they're just as likely to make lists with a preponderance of women, then you'd have a decent argument that this was just a statistical anomaly. Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction Wed Nov 4 23:44:47 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:44:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a whole other set of criteria. Frost was by all accounts a first class sonofabitch, especially to those who loved him, but hey, he's dead. All that's left is the poetry. Same for Rilke. Sappho seems to have had a thing for girls who may have been younger than our age of consent. Shakespeare--ok, we don't know much about Shakespeare's private life. How about all those greats who were devout fascists? You get my drift. For reasons that are opaque to us those they treated badly stuck around Rilke and Frost. I'd rather read Rilke, tho. At 11:18 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/4/2009 8:02:48 PM Central Standard Time, >junction at earthlink.net writes: >> >> >>Yeah, I have a few of those religious beliefs, >>too, and those who don't accept them are doomed >>to outer darkness. But I try not to say that too >>often, or people might think me a bit self-righteous. >> >>Of course I could say what I truly believe, that >>anything beyond a mild admiration for Frost reflects a critical blindspot. >> >>What did the guy say? "Now you must change your life." >> >>Mark > >For Frost, there are rabid admirers, admirers, mild admirers, and >denigrators. I place myself in the second category. For what he >staked out as his "territory" (both geographical and aesthetic) he >succeeded as well as anyone has. It may have been a modest claim, >to some minds, but it tells me a lot about what it has meant to be >human in places (both geographically and personally) where I haven't >personally ventured. Should we ask for more from a poet? If we >should, what? > >That "guy" you mention was, after all, one of the most sycophantic >poetic spongers who ever lived. He did write some great poems, to >be sure, but to compare him to Frost on the matter of ethos is going >to have him come up on the short side. I don't see RMR as any >effective counterpoint to RLF. Frost was a pro and freely admitted >it; Rilke kept trying to promote himself as some kind of enlightened >amateur. Right. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 5 01:45:15 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:45:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens In-Reply-To: <4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> <4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> That's a Good Bob now. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Considering how many fans Stevens has here, and unfans Logan has, I'm > surprised no one has brought up Logan's silly (though at times interesting) > take on Stevens in the latest but one issue of *The New Criterion.* I was > especially amused by Logan's condescension toward what he considers > Stevens's pretensions as a philosopher. As if Stevens wasn't ten times more > subtle and astute a thinker about philosophy than Logan. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 5 01:37:54 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:37:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction In-Reply-To: <4AF2532F.6030304@opus40.org> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org><4AF241CC.7040709@nut-n-but.net> <4AF2532F.6030304@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AF272C2.5030006@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > >>> >> >> Nah, I am assuming that the PW editors would either consciously >> behave in a manner that Amy considers sexist or they would not. > True -- in fact a tautology -- but pointless. One of us doesn't know what a tautology is. Amy believes there is something called a sexism, and something not. So your desire to bring in some sort of continuum is irrelevant. The argument is about whether the editors are sexist or not sexist, not about what degree of sexism they practiced, if any. > >> I also believe that one can do something that feminists will consider >> sexist without being a sexist. > >> Working from the theory that what do women know about sexism? We men >> will decide what's sexist and what's not. No. Women have nothing to do with it. I'm working under the assumption that /feminists/ can err. And under the further implied assumption that many of them are extremists who will tend to find just about anything sexist, like a ratio of 6 to 5 in favor of males in an anthology. Or the possibility that women /may/ not have the innate potential to do certain kinds of science as well as men do, and that the possibility should be investigated. > > > >> What is most to the main point here, though, is that I see no way Amy >> can automatically assume the PW editors are sexists--unless there is >> some validated record of their agreeing to spurn female authors this >> time around, or the like. > She can certainly make that assumption on the basis of initial evidence. Not rationally. > > >> In other words, there is no way to tell whether or not they sincerely >> believed all ten of the best books published this year were by men or >> not. > This is a ridiculous standard. By this standard, one could never > assert racism, sexism or any other form of prejudice. You seem to have left out one way you can indeed do that: find some record in which one of them confesses to having hated women all his life and was now getting back at them. Or the like. By your standard, one could never be absolved of any form of (serious) racism. > > > >> >> Of course, as I'm sure feminists would argue, the editors' belief, >> sincere or not, was wrong, and therefore sexist. > That's a huge and unfounded leap. I don't think it's reasonable to > assert that feminists believe that wrong always equals sexist. I'm saying that if an action results in an injury to women, some feminists will claim it was sexist. Amy seemed to have something along those lines--about unintended sexism. > > > > >> In that case, however, the feminists need to do more than simply call >> the PW editors sexist. They have to compare books by women they >> thought better than one or more books in the PW top ten and show how >> the women's books were indeed better. > > You can't even convince Mark that Frost is more than mediocre. There's > no way to conclusively demonstrate that one book is better than > another. A more reasonable test would be to compare this list with > other lists made by the same editors in the past and look for a > pattern. If they're just as likely to make lists with a preponderance > of women, then you'd have a decent argument that this was just a > statistical anomaly. > I think you can show beyond reasonable doubt (in most cases) that one author is better than another. Frost is better than James Whitcomb Riley. That a few irrationals will disagree is beside the point. Not that Mark is irrational to prefer Stevens to Frost--certainly, some races are too close to call. And all important competitions are extremely complex--too complex to make simple yes/no's to. One needs to define "best," for one thing. For instance, I think Cummings was a more important poet than Stevens, but not as good a poet. Also, if you're going to accuse the PW editors of sexist choices, it seems to me you have to show at least one instance of a book by a male that made the PW top ten that is more inferior to a book by a female not on the list than Mark thinks Frost is to Rilke or whoever it is he thinks superior to Frost. It's not enough to find a book by a female that seems only slightly better to most observers than one of the male-written books, because the "mistake" the editors made in choosing the latter would be too minimal to count as sexist--it seems to me. Calling Richard Wilbur superior to Denise Levertov should not be considered sexist; calling Rod McKuen superior to her could be--but should NOT be called a sexist opinion, but a /wrong/ opinion. That's my main thrust: distinguish the aesthetically effective from the aesthetically not as good to determine the aesthetic competence of an evaluator, not to determine his moral standing. And with that, I'm out of this debate. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 5 07:03:24 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:03:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu><36cb1de809110 40926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com><4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF2BF0C.7060708@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > That's a Good Bob now. > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Considering how many fans Stevens has here, and unfans Logan has, > I'm surprised no one has brought up Logan's silly (though at times > interesting) take on Stevens in the latest but one issue of /The > New Criterion./ I was especially amused by Logan's condescension > toward what he considers Stevens's pretensions as a philosopher. > As if Stevens wasn't ten times more subtle and astute a thinker > about philosophy than Logan. > > --Bob G. > That's not what I heard from Logan's nurse: she says he burst into tears after he read what I'd said about him. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 5 07:35:28 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:35:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911041125q2c12c46by488870ba10274653@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net><309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4b65c2d70911041125q2c12c46by488870ba10274653@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF2C690.6060105@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I erroneously sent this answer to the Buffalo... I should be more careful: > > I would like to highlight the following by Amy King: > > > Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a > sexist act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the > long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" > to or not. It can be intentional in that men can do so to protect > their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn to favor > the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. You can study the > realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. > > This is a piercing analysis that can be applied to infinite kinds of > suppression. Exactly. Unfortunately, it can also be applied to infinite kinds of non-suppression. For example, Joe's farting when Lucy-Ann was reading her poem to the group was sexist, regardless of whether or not he intended it as a criticism of her poem only, rather than as an insult directed against women and all they stand for. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 5 07:42:34 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:42:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AF2C83A.30408@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > >>> >> >> Nah, I am assuming that the PW editors would either consciously >> behave in a manner that Amy considers sexist or they would not. > True -- in fact a tautology -- but pointless. One of us doesn't know what a tautology is. Amy believes there is something called a sexism, and something not. So your desire to bring in some sort of continuum is irrelevant. The argument is about whether the editors are sexist or not sexist, not about what degree of sexism they practiced, if any. > >> I also believe that one can do something that feminists will consider >> sexist without being a sexist. > >> Working from the theory that what do women know about sexism? We men >> will decide what's sexist and what's not. No. Women have nothing to do with it. I'm working under the assumption that /feminists/ can err. And under the further implied assumption that many of them are extremists who will tend to find just about anything sexist, like a ratio of 6 to 5 in favor of males in an anthology. Or the possibility that women /may/ not have the innate potential to do certain kinds of science as well as men do, and that the possibility should be investigated. > > > >> What is most to the main point here, though, is that I see no way Amy >> can automatically assume the PW editors are sexists--unless there is >> some validated record of their agreeing to spurn female authors this >> time around, or the like. > She can certainly make that assumption on the basis of initial evidence. Not rationally. > > >> In other words, there is no way to tell whether or not they sincerely >> believed all ten of the best books published this year were by men or >> not. > This is a ridiculous standard. By this standard, one could never > assert racism, sexism or any other form of prejudice. You seem to have left out one way you can indeed do that: find some record in which one of them confesses to having hated women all his life and was now getting back at them. Or the like. By your standard, one could never be absolved of any form of (serious) racism. > > > >> >> Of course, as I'm sure feminists would argue, the editors' belief, >> sincere or not, was wrong, and therefore sexist. > That's a huge and unfounded leap. I don't think it's reasonable to > assert that feminists believe that wrong always equals sexist. I'm saying that if an action results in an injury to women, some feminists will claim it was sexist. Amy seemed to have something along those lines--about unintended sexism. > > > > >> In that case, however, the feminists need to do more than simply call >> the PW editors sexist. They have to compare books by women they >> thought better than one or more books in the PW top ten and show how >> the women's books were indeed better. > > You can't even convince Mark that Frost is more than mediocre. There's > no way to conclusively demonstrate that one book is better than > another. A more reasonable test would be to compare this list with > other lists made by the same editors in the past and look for a > pattern. If they're just as likely to make lists with a preponderance > of women, then you'd have a decent argument that this was just a > statistical anomaly. > I think you can show beyond reasonable doubt (in most cases) that one author is better than another. Frost is better than James Whitcomb Riley. That a few irrationals will disagree is beside the point. Not that Mark is irrational to prefer Stevens to Frost--certainly, some races are too close to call. And all important competitions are extremely complex--too complex to make simple yes/no's to. One needs to define "best," for one thing. For instance, I think Cummings was a more important poet than Stevens, but not as good a poet. Also, if you're going to accuse the PW editors of sexist choices, it seems to me you have to show at least one instance of a book by a male that made the PW top ten that is more inferior to a book by a female not on the list than Mark thinks Frost is to Rilke or whoever it is he thinks superior to Frost. It's not enough to find a book by a female that seems only slightly better to most observers than one of the male-written books, because the "mistake" the editors made in choosing the latter would be too minimal to count as sexist--it seems to me. Calling Richard Wilbur superior to Denise Levertov should not be considered sexist; calling Rod McKuen superior to her could be--but should NOT be called a sexist opinion, but a /wrong/ opinion. That's my main thrust: distinguish the aesthetically effective from the aesthetically not as good to determine the aesthetic competence of an evaluator, not to determine his moral standing. And with that, I'm out of this debate. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Thu Nov 5 07:52:29 2009 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 06:52:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wherever the truth may be Message-ID: Don't know about you, but I've been enjoying re-reading Frost the past few days. Neither Out Far Nor In Deep The people along the sand All turn and look one way. They turn their back on the land. They look at the sea all day. As long as it takes to pass A ship keeps raising its hull; The wetter ground like glass Reflects a standing gull. The land may vary more; But wherever the truth may be--- The water comes ashore, And the people look at the sea. They cannot look out far. They cannot look in deep. But when was that ever a bar To any watch they keep? --Robert Frost David Graham Grahamd at Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz From GrahamD Thu Nov 5 08:17:26 2009 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:17:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Someone he had to obey Message-ID: <759D267F-B63A-4AE6-8C6E-BC2C47A63CB1@ripon.edu> THE DRAFT HORSE With a lantern that wouldn't burn In too frail a buggy we drove Behind too heavy a horse Through a pitch-dark limitless grove. And a man came out of the trees And took our horse by the head And reaching back to his ribs Deliberately stabbed him dead. The ponderous beast went down With a crack of a broken shaft. And the night drew through the trees In one long invidious draft. The most unquestioning pair That ever accepted fate And the least disposed to ascribe Any more than we had to to hate, We assumed that the man himself Or someone he had to obey Wanted us to get down And walk the rest of the way. --Robert Frost David Graham Grahamd at Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz From GrahamD Thu Nov 5 08:26:43 2009 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:26:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finalities besides the grave Message-ID: <3BF5C30B-F283-4E4D-8065-96C198AA5D35@ripon.edu> The Impulse It was too lonely for her there, And too wild, And since there were but two of them, And no child, And work was little in the house, She was free, And followed where he furrowed field, Or felled tree. She rested on a log and tossed The fresh chips, With a song only to herself On her lips. And once she went to break a bough Of black alder. She strayed so far she scarcely heard When he called her ? And didn't answer ? didn't speak ? Or return. She stood, and then she ran and hid In the fern. He never found her, though he looked Everywhere, And he asked at her mother's house Was she there. Sudden and swift and light as that The ties gave, And he learned of finalities Besides the grave. --Robert Frost, fr. "The Hill Wife" David Graham Grahamd at Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Thu Nov 5 08:34:35 2009 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:34:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <8C1E81E9-63D7-4DBE-B5E1-1B7888BDEFAF@ripon.edu> A Mood Apart Once down on my knees to growing plants I prodded the earth with a lazy tool In time with a medley of sotto chants; But becoming aware of some boys from school I stopped my song and almost heart, For any eye is an evil eye That looks in onto a mood apart. --Robert Frost David Graham Grahamd at Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 5 09:07:32 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:07:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some of it In-Reply-To: <3BF5C30B-F283-4E4D-8065-96C198AA5D35@ripon.edu> References: <3BF5C30B-F283-4E4D-8065-96C198AA5D35@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AF2DC24.70300@opus40.org> *Some of It * Robert Frost?s ?The Most of It,? as rewritten by Gregory Corso I just figured out that for ten years now the universe has been my job I drove a cab through the trash-strewn streets of New York looking for multitudes to smash but when I honked my horn all that came back was its own goddam mocking echo I ran it off some cliff across in the Adirondacks and as I hurtled toward the rocky lake I cried out Life! Life! Life! and all I wanted back was not some goddam echo but a girl waif with stringy hair shouting Death! Death! across the seat while I kept screaming Life! Life! not because I meant it just to keep the dialogue going looking for love in contradiction. If I had a girl, I'd drive off a cliff with her crash into the scree on the other side, splash into the rotting water I'd let her swim for a while but that might prove me too human maybe I'd rut her like a great buck pushing the crumpled water with my stallion fury and land pouring like a waterfall and stumble through the rocks with horny tread, and leave her as I hit the underbrush and that would be all. Graham, David wrote: > > > The Impulse > > > It was too lonely for her there, > And too wild, > And since there were but two of them, > And no child, > And work was little in the house, > She was free, > And followed where he furrowed field, > Or felled tree. > She rested on a log and tossed > The fresh chips, > With a song only to herself > On her lips. > And once she went to break a bough > Of black alder. > She strayed so far she scarcely heard > When he called her ? > And didn't answer ? didn't speak ? > Or return. > She stood, and then she ran and hid > In the fern. > He never found her, though he looked > Everywhere, > And he asked at her mother's house > Was she there. > Sudden and swift and light as that > The ties gave, > And he learned of finalities > Besides the grave. > --Robert Frost, fr. "The Hill Wife" > > David Graham > Grahamd at Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 5 09:11:32 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:11:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephen King poem in Playboy Message-ID: <4AF2DD14.4090208@opus40.org> Marge Simpson's appearance as its cover girl has attracted a frenzy of media attention, but this month's edition of Playboy magazine contains another, almost equally unexpected celebrity appearance: from author Stephen King , making a very rare outing as a poet. "When travelling to the heart of darkness, terror is not an emotion ? it's a destination," writes King in the issue, out now, before launching into The Bone Church . Told by a man in a bar, the poem is the story of an ill-fated expedition into a jungle. "There were thirty-two of us went into that greensore / and only three who rose above it," writes King. "We were thirty days in the green, and only one of us came out." The team is killed off, variously, by snakes, leeches ("Dorrance tried to kiss him back to life / and sucked from his throat a leech as big as / a hothouse tomato") and fevers, until three finally arrive at the bone church, "a million years of bone and tusk, / a whited sepulchre of eternity, a thrashpit of prongs / such as you'd see if hell burned dry to the slag of its cauldron". Things, unsurprisingly enough, don't end well, as "mammoths from the dead age when man / was not" start to thunder past in "endless convulsions of tumbling death". -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 5 09:52:33 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:52:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet Message-ID: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From almaginnes Thu Nov 5 10:11:26 2009 From: almaginnes (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:11:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> I was robbed! I misspelled "caesura" and was counted wrong. Shoulda proof read. Complete brain fart on a couple of otehr wquestions. I blame it on teaching a fiction workshop right now. -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:52 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Thu Nov 5 10:11:55 2009 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:11:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> Message-ID: <648208b60911050711v4e5bbc42ybc7463b439c766d1@mail.gmail.com> If you'd called it "quizette," you'd be open to the sexist charge. - Jim On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:52 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan Thu Nov 5 10:20:42 2009 From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:20:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <019e01ca5e2b$89f06c00$9dd14400$@edu> The Old Mole wrote: I was robbed! Me too. I answered "poetic foot" when the literalist quiz would only accept "foot." Bill Morgan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 5 10:24:16 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:24:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AF2EE20.3070905@opus40.org> I got one wrong. For "poem that tells a story" I put "ballad" instead of "narrative." almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > I was robbed! I misspelled "caesura" and was counted wrong. Shoulda > proof read. Complete brain fart on a couple of otehr wquestions. I > blame it on teaching a fiction workshop right now. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TheOldMole > Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:52 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet > > http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ > > -- Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 5 10:29:43 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:29:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <4AF2EE20.3070905@opus40.org> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> <4AF2EE20.3070905@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911050729q3feb33e4rf269b011ac23a885@mail.gmail.com> I even messed up the one in Italian. No way I will ever succeed with quizzes. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > I got one wrong. For "poem that tells a story" I put "ballad" instead of > "narrative." > > almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > >> I was robbed! I misspelled "caesura" and was counted wrong. Shoulda proof >> read. Complete brain fart on a couple of otehr wquestions. I blame it on >> teaching a fiction workshop right now. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: TheOldMole >> Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:52 am >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet >> >> http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing >> Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb Thu Nov 5 10:51:53 2009 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:51:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911050729q3feb33e4rf269b011ac23a885@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org><8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com><4AF2EE20.3070905@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70911050729q3feb33e4rf269b011ac23a885@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC2C47073D432A-A0AC-ACCC@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> Very fun Tad! I missed two. Millicent Presale for my book Woman on a Shaky Bridge opens Oct. 20th. Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 7:29 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet I even messed up the one in Italian. No way I will ever succeed with quizzes. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 PM, TheOldMole wrote: I got one wrong. For "poem that tells a story" I put "ballad" instead of "narrative." almaginnes at aol.com wrote: I was robbed! I misspelled "caesura" and was counted wrong. Shoulda proof read. Complete brain fart on a couple of otehr wquestions. I blame it on teaching a fiction workshop right now. -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:52 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 5 11:27:28 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:27:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu><36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com><4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> URL FYI... The sovereign ghost of Wallace Stevens http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/The-sovereign-ghost-of-Wallace-Stevens-4283 -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens That's a Good Bob now. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: Considering how many fans Stevens has here, and unfans Logan has, I'm surprised no one has brought up Logan's silly (though at times interesting) take on Stevens in the latest but one issue of The New Criterion. I was especially amused by Logan's condescension toward what he considers Stevens's pretensions as a philosopher. As if Stevens wasn't ten times more subtle and astute a thinker about philosophy than Logan. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 5 12:02:57 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:02:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <8CC2C47073D432A-A0AC-ACCC@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> <8CC2C4160A7D145-1350-4B34@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> <4AF2EE20.3070905@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70911050729q3feb33e4rf269b011ac23a885@mail.gmail.com> <8CC2C47073D432A-A0AC-ACCC@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: As you were, all you quizlings. Hal ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose at all.? --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Millicent wrote: > Very fun Tad! > > I missed two. > > Millicent > > Presale for my book Woman on a Shaky Bridge opens Oct. 20th. > Finishing Line Press > http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm > > http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com > Facebook/MillB > http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 7:29 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet > > I even messed up the one in Italian. No way I will ever succeed with > quizzes. > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> I got one wrong. For "poem that tells a story" I put "ballad" instead of >> "narrative." >> >> almaginnes at aol.com wrote: >> >>> I was robbed! I misspelled "caesura" and was counted wrong. Shoulda >>> proof read. Complete brain fart on a couple of otehr wquestions. I blame it >>> on teaching a fiction workshop right now. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: TheOldMole >>> Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:52 am >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet >>> >>> http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing >>> Careers Examiner column today! >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 5 12:29:54 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:29:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: <8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu><36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com><4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> <8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Speaking of Stevens, and I'm not making this up, tomorrow morning at about 8:30AM someone who has traveled from Alaska with a bronze bust of Wallace Stevens in her luggage will meet me in the lobby of a hotel near the airport. She will pass me bust of Stevens' head, possibly bubblewrapped, which I will tuck away in the crook of my arm like a running back taking a handoff, and then try to depart through the front doors of the hotel as nonchalantly as possible. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens URL FYI... The sovereign ghost of Wallace Stevens http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/The-sovereign-ghost-of-Wallace-Stevens-4283 -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan on Stevens That's a Good Bob now. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: Considering how many fans Stevens has here, and unfans Logan has, I'm surprised no one has brought up Logan's silly (though at times interesting) take on Stevens in the latest but one issue of The New Criterion. I was especially amused by Logan's condescension toward what he considers Stevens's pretensions as a philosopher. As if Stevens wasn't ten times more subtle and astute a thinker about philosophy than Logan. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 5 12:46:27 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:46:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> <4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> <8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Next up, Alfredo Garcia. Hal ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose at all.? --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wrote: Speaking of Stevens, and I'm not making this up, tomorrow morning at about > 8:30AM someone who has traveled from Alaska with a bronze bust of Wallace > Stevens in her luggage will meet me in the lobby of a hotel near the > airport. She will pass me bust of Stevens' head, possibly bubblewrapped, > which I will tuck away in the crook of my arm like a running back taking a > handoff, and then try to depart through the front doors of the hotel as > nonchalantly as possible. > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip Thu Nov 5 13:14:32 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:14:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets in Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the poets in Donald Allen's 1962 anthology: The New American Poets. We were lovers of Olson, Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O'Hara, et al. Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept The Palm at the End of the Mind next to my chair in the living room. Since my poetics and the poetics of everyone there was very different than Stevens', I said that it was a "guilty pleasure." Nearly every other person there had the same volume readily at hand on a daily basis and also felt it a "guilty pleasure" (as though we were being untrue to our school). I'm not sure if the extent of Stevens' appeal and the significance of his work (even as an influence on those you'd not suspect of reading him deeply) is really known. On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me if I had a guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they laughed. . . . I thought better and said Sandburg (showing that a poet needn't be overtly profound to attract my attention and admiration) and they laughed again. I think they meant best selling writers or television shows. Gad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 5 13:17:15 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:17:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu><36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com><4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com><8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com><8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC2C5B565BF1C0-9518-5166@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> By the way, if anyone is close to Hartford CT, Saturday night is our annual Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash and lecture, this year featuring Marjorie Perloff... http://www.stevenspoetry.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens Next up, Alfredo Garcia. Hal ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose at all.? --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wrote: Speaking of Stevens, and I'm not making this up, tomorrow morning at about 8:30AM someone who has traveled from Alaska with a bronze bust of Wallace Stevens in her luggage will meet me in the lobby of a hotel near the airport. She will pass me bust of Stevens' head, possibly bubblewrapped, which I will tuck away in the crook of my arm like a running back taking a handoff, and then try to depart through the front doors of the hotel as nonchalantly as possible. Finnegan _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 5 13:32:48 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:32:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> <4AF24578.2000109@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911042245t3e5ccc26w7ac377eb0dcd3d82@mail.gmail.com> <8CC2C4C001F03D6-8110-3720@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911051032n65f7dfddyce5e8829e58b1a12@mail.gmail.com> lu_(i)_vely! On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Next up, Alfredo Garcia. > > Hal > > ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose > at all.? > --John Cage > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wrote: > > Speaking of Stevens, and I'm not making this up, tomorrow morning at >> about 8:30AM someone who has traveled from Alaska with a bronze bust of >> Wallace Stevens in her luggage will meet me in the lobby of a hotel near the >> airport. She will pass me bust of Stevens' head, possibly bubblewrapped, >> which I will tuck away in the crook of my arm like a running back taking a >> handoff, and then try to depart through the front doors of the hotel as >> nonchalantly as possible. >> Finnegan >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 5 13:54:37 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:54:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> References: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Let's see, my copy is right there next to *Gertrude Stein Remembered*. It's the Library of America "collected." The smaller volumes seem to have migrated. Hal ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose at all.? --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets in > Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the poets in Donald > Allen?s 1962 anthology: *The New American Poets*. We were lovers of Olson, > Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O?Hara, et al. > > > > Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept *The Palm at the > End of the Mind* next to my chair in the living room. Since my poetics and > the poetics of everyone there was very different than Stevens?, I said that > it was a ?guilty pleasure.? Nearly every other person there had the same > volume readily at hand on a daily basis and also felt it a ?guilty pleasure? > (as though we were being untrue to our school). > > > > I?m not sure if the extent of Stevens? appeal and the significance of his > work (even as an influence on those you?d not suspect of reading him deeply) > is really known. > > > > On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me if I had a > guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they laughed. . . . I thought > better and said Sandburg (showing that a poet needn?t be overtly profound to > attract my attention and admiration) and they laughed again. I think they > meant best selling writers or television shows. Gad. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Nov 5 14:22:06 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 14:22:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bring me the head of Wallace Stevens Message-ID: Where is Warren Oates now that we really need him? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Thu Nov 5 14:28:41 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:28:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> References: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Robert Duncan was the recipient of the Wallace Stevens medal, I think it's called, at UCONN. Holly presented the award. There must have been some cash involved--it's a long flight from California to Storrs, CN. He delivered a lecture to a crowd of at least 500, beginning with a disclaimer--that he'd barely read Stevens before preparing his talk. A lot of very good close reading and explication of the music. I wish I could be more specific. In those days among Black Mountain types Stevens was the other guy. I doubt too many of them (us) learned a lot of our craft from him. Duncan played the academic game beautifully, at the speech and afterwards at the reception. He was witty without wickedness. Then a few of us retired to Harvey Bialy's place and got stoned, and Duncan became an utterly charming three year old. I love Stevens. If I had to name a favorite poem it would probably be Idea of Order at Key West, but maybe the best poem of pure American defiance is Ploughing on Sunday--better than the Declaration of Independence. Mark At 01:14 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets in >Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the poets in >Donald Allen's 1962 anthology: The New American Poets. We were >lovers of Olson, Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O'Hara, et al. > >Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept The Palm at >the End of the Mind next to my chair in the living room. Since my >poetics and the poetics of everyone there was very different than >Stevens', I said that it was a "guilty pleasure." Nearly every other >person there had the same volume readily at hand on a daily basis >and also felt it a "guilty pleasure" (as though we were being untrue >to our school). > >I'm not sure if the extent of Stevens' appeal and the significance >of his work (even as an influence on those you'd not suspect of >reading him deeply) is really known. > >On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me if >I had a guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they laughed. >. . . I thought better and said Sandburg (showing that a poet >needn't be overtly profound to attract my attention and admiration) >and they laughed again. I think they meant best selling writers or >television shows. Gad. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Thu Nov 5 14:47:15 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:47:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> Message-ID: I was also robbed. They docked my grade for writing "rhyme scheme" instead of "end rhyme." Geez, these teachers! ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 5, 2009, at 8:52 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip Thu Nov 5 14:50:05 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:50:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Creeley began with Stevens (and Hart Crane). He never seemed to get Olson involved (nor Charlie Parker). I wish I'd been at Storrs then. Butterick sounds like he was in part behind this. (I wrote the secondary bibliog. on Creeley, Dorn, and Duncan, G.K. Hall 1989 or so.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 1:29 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure Robert Duncan was the recipient of the Wallace Stevens medal, I think it's called, at UCONN. Holly presented the award. There must have been some cash involved--it's a long flight from California to Storrs, CN. He delivered a lecture to a crowd of at least 500, beginning with a disclaimer--that he'd barely read Stevens before preparing his talk. A lot of very good close reading and explication of the music. I wish I could be more specific. In those days among Black Mountain types Stevens was the other guy. I doubt too many of them (us) learned a lot of our craft from him. Duncan played the academic game beautifully, at the speech and afterwards at the reception. He was witty without wickedness. Then a few of us retired to Harvey Bialy's place and got stoned, and Duncan became an utterly charming three year old. I love Stevens. If I had to name a favorite poem it would probably be Idea of Order at Key West, but maybe the best poem of pure American defiance is Ploughing on Sunday--better than the Declaration of Independence. Mark At 01:14 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets in >Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the poets in >Donald Allen's 1962 anthology: The New American Poets. We were >lovers of Olson, Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O'Hara, et al. > >Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept The Palm at >the End of the Mind next to my chair in the living room. Since my >poetics and the poetics of everyone there was very different than >Stevens', I said that it was a "guilty pleasure." Nearly every other >person there had the same volume readily at hand on a daily basis >and also felt it a "guilty pleasure" (as though we were being untrue >to our school). > >I'm not sure if the extent of Stevens' appeal and the significance >of his work (even as an influence on those you'd not suspect of >reading him deeply) is really known. > >On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me if >I had a guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they laughed. >. . . I thought better and said Sandburg (showing that a poet >needn't be overtly profound to attract my attention and admiration) >and they laughed again. I think they meant best selling writers or >television shows. Gad. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames Thu Nov 5 16:44:03 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:44:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com><70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <8CC2C783A3CA8CA-236C-F449@webmail-m041.sysops.aol.com> Duncan is listed on our site, 1972, as the UConn Wallace Stevens Program speaker... http://www.stevenspoetry.org/stevensuconnprogram.htm It's interesting to know that the event was more of lecture at one point. Since I've been attending, last 10 years or so, it's been more of a straight reading, with a little bit of Stevens' poetry or anecdotes about him thrown in for good measure. Sometime ago they divided the program up into a day at UConn Storrs campus and the next day in Hartford for an afternoon reading recently settling on either Classical Magnet school or the Arts Academy, where middle and high school students are encouraged to attend. For a few years they tried to use The Hartford corporate headquarters for the readings, including a space in the building called the Wallace Stevens Theatre. But attracting corporate employees to the readings proved to be difficult. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure Robert Duncan was the recipient of the Wallace Stevens medal, I think it's called, at UCONN. Holly presented the award. There must have been some cash involved--it's a long flight from California to Storrs, CN. He delivered a lecture to a crowd of at least 500, beginning with a disclaimer--that he'd barely read Stevens before preparing his talk. A lot of very good close reading and explication of the music. I wish I could be more specific. In those days among Black Mountain types Stevens was the other guy. I doubt too many of them (us) learned a lot of our craft from him. Duncan played the academic game beautifully, at the speech and afterwards at the reception. He was witty without wickedness. Then a few of us retired to Harvey Bialy's place and got stoned, and Duncan became an utterly charming three year old. I love Stevens. If I had to name a favorite poem it would probably be Idea of Order at Key West, but maybe the best poem of pure American defiance is Ploughing on Sunday--better than the Declaration of Independence. Mark At 01:14 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets in >Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the poets in >Donald Allen's 1962 anthology: The New American Poets. We were >lovers of Olson, Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O'Hara, et al. > >Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept The Palm at >the End of the Mind next to my chair in the living room. Since my >poetics and the poetics of everyone there was very different than >Stevens', I said that it was a "guilty pleasure." Nearly every other >person there had the same volume readily at hand on a daily basis >and also felt it a "guilty pleasure" (as though we were being untrue >to our school). > >I'm not sure if the extent of Stevens' appeal and the significance >of his work (even as an influence on those you'd not suspect of >reading him deeply) is really known. > >On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me if >I had a guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they laughed. >. . . I thought better and said Sandburg (showing that a poet >needn't be overtly profound to attract my attention and admiration) >and they laughed again. I think they meant best selling writers or >television shows. Gad. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Thu Nov 5 16:53:39 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:53:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure In-Reply-To: <8CC2C783A3CA8CA-236C-F449@webmail-m041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2C54B8A9C73A-8110-4A14@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> <70CA123BE07F4B26A3468F8DBA443095@win.louisiana.edu> <8CC2C783A3CA8CA-236C-F449@webmail-m041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Duncan did about half and half. He was a wonderful if strange reader--his spacing within lines and line breaks were very precise and supposed to approximate rests of different lengths as in music. He would mouth the count under his breath. "The light foot hears you and the brightness begins [two three] god-step at the margins of thought" etc. At 04:44 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >Duncan is listed on our site, 1972, as the UConn Wallace Stevens >Program speaker... >http://www.stevenspoetry.org/stevensuconnprogram.htm >It's interesting to know that the event was more of lecture at one point. >Since I've been attending, last 10 years or so, it's been more of a >straight reading, with a little bit of Stevens' poetry or anecdotes >about him thrown in for good measure. >Sometime ago they divided the program up into a day at UConn Storrs >campus and the next day in Hartford for an afternoon reading recently settling >on either Classical Magnet school or the Arts Academy, where middle >and high school students are encouraged to attend. For a few years >they tried to use The Hartford corporate headquarters for the >readings, including a space in the building called the Wallace >Stevens Theatre. But attracting corporate employees to the readings >proved to be difficult. > > > >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 2:28 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens, a guilty pleasure > >Robert Duncan was the recipient of the Wallace Stevens medal, I >think it's called, at UCONN. Holly presented the award. There must >have been some cash involved--it's a long flight from California to >Storrs, CN. He delivered a lecture to a crowd of at least 500, >beginning with a disclaimer--that he'd barely read Stevens before >preparing his talk. A lot of very good close reading and explication >of the music. I wish I could be more specific. In those days among >Black Mountain types Stevens was the other guy. I doubt too many of >them (us) learned a lot of our craft from him. > >Duncan played the academic game beautifully, at the speech and >afterwards at the reception. He was witty without wickedness. Then a >few of us retired to Harvey Bialy's place and got stoned, and Duncan >became an utterly charming three year old. > >I love Stevens. If I had to name a favorite poem it would probably >be Idea of Order at Key West, but maybe the best poem of pure >American defiance is Ploughing on Sunday--better than the >Declaration of Independence. > >Mark > >At 01:14 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: > >A couple decades ago I was with a number of experimental poets > in >Southern Ohio. Most of us had been heavily influence by the > poets in >Donald Allen's 1962 anthology: The New American Poets. We > were >lovers of Olson, Dorn, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, O'Hara, et al. > > > >Talking about poets, I happened to mention that I kept The Palm > at >the End of the Mind next to my chair in the living room. Since > my >poetics and the poetics of everyone there was very different > than >Stevens', I said that it was a "guilty pleasure." Nearly > every other >person there had the same volume readily at hand on a > daily basis >and also felt it a "guilty pleasure" (as though we > were being untrue >to our school). > > > >I'm not sure if the extent of Stevens' appeal and the > significance >of his work (even as an influence on those you'd not > suspect of >reading him deeply) is really known. > > > >On a side note, my graduate class (Pound/Eliot seminar) asked me > if >I had a guilty pleasure and I told them Stevens . . . they > laughed. >. . . I thought better and said Sandburg (showing that a > poet >needn't be overtly profound to attract my attention and > admiration) >and they laughed again. I think they meant best > selling writers or >television shows. Gad. > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >Forthcoming in November 2009. >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Thu Nov 5 18:12:51 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:12:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see that you get a different quiz if you take it again. This time they called "slant rhyme" incorrect; the correct answer was "near rhyme." On 11/5/09 1:47 PM, "David Graham" wrote: > I was also robbed. They docked my grade for writing "rhyme scheme" instead of > "end rhyme." Geez, these teachers! > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 5, 2009, at 8:52 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ >> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Nov 5 18:42:01 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:42:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry quizlet Message-ID: In a message dated 11/5/2009 1:48:00 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > I was also robbed. They docked my grade for writing "rhyme scheme" > instead of "end rhyme." Geez, these teachers! > > > > > Yeah, I got a 95 too because of that one. I put "scheme." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Nov 5 18:43:03 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:43:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry quizlet Message-ID: In a message dated 11/5/2009 5:13:09 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > I see that you get a different quiz if you take it again. This time they > called "slant rhyme" incorrect; the correct answer was "near rhyme." > I think you can grant yourself a check on that one, David! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb Thu Nov 5 18:47:28 2009 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:47:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Woman on a Shaky Bridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC2C89763339D2-33DC-14883@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> This flyer is to announce to friends and acquaintances that my poetry collection from Finishing Line Press, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, is coming out this winter?an appropriate time to turn inward and consider the creative arts and reflect on what is truly important to you, what inspires you, perhaps a time to appreciate life through my poems about jazz and Eastern Europe and women everywhere who are on shaky bridges of their own. ?Start reading Woman on a Shaky Bridge and before the hour is up, you?re likely to read it through to the end. You will, however, remember it for the rest of your life. Between these covers, Millicent Borges Accardi has gathered sixteen poems that blaze with passion, outrage, wisdom, wit, grief, and love that reckons with the grimmest possible truth? ?David Huddle, award-wining writer of The Story of a Million Years. Excerpt For John, For Coltrane This is romance of the reed, brutal, and all the while background ballads play. They say he looked ten years older than the music; they say the music used his body more than love. The music made changes, war--made trying harder than a man ought to into just silence, made it seem just for the silence of it all. He wanted to grab the tail of the night; he wanted to take it home and wrap its arms around his sound until it screamed. But the night, the night was timid, timid as the softest notes he knew how to play. And the night came in long, longer than he ever wanted it to. Thank you! Millicent Borges Accardi Order online at www.finishinglinepress.com and click on ?new releases? NOTES: Millicent?s writing awards include grants from the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Barbara Deming, and the California Arts Council, as well as artist residencies at Yaddo, Jentel, Vermont Studio, Fundaci?n Valpara?so in Spain and, this past September, Milkwood in the Czech Republic. Recent publications include New Letters, Tampa Review, Nimrod and Wallace Stevens Journal, but over 50 literary publications as well as a number of anthologies have featured her work, most notably, Boomer Girls (University of Iowa Press). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 5 19:40:39 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:40:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?poet_as_fl=C3=A2neur?= Message-ID: <8CC2C90E5F4958D-265C-7BC1@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> http://www.brooklynrail.org/2009/11/books/poetry-the-poet-of-post-modern-life POETRY: The Poet of Post-modern Life by John Yau Escape from Combray Rick Snyder Ugly Duckling, 2009 In his seminal essay, ?The Painter of Modern Life,? Charles Baudelaire defined the modern artist, or fl?neur, as a ?solitary individual endowed with an active imagination.? This figure was a detached but passionate individual walking through the city, carried along by its tumultuous crowds, observing but unobserved. There have been many fl?neurs and derivative wannabes since then, but only the best of them have added something new to Baudelaire?s original conception. In his quietly charged, laconic poems, Rick Snyder adds something solid and useful to the long rich history of the poet walking alone in the city. And by some measure, he is just hitting his stride. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 5 19:50:16 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:50:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Woman on a Shaky Bridge In-Reply-To: <8CC2C89763339D2-33DC-14883@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2C89763339D2-33DC-14883@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC2C923D7B1FE3-265C-7DD0@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Congrats on the book, Millicent. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Millicent To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 6:47 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Woman on a Shaky Bridge This flyer is to announce to friends and acquaintances that my poetry collection from Finishing Line Press, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, is coming out this winter?an appropriate time to turn inward and consider the creative arts and reflect on what is truly important to you, what inspires you, perhaps a time to appreciate life through my poems about jazz and Eastern Europe and women everywhere who are on shaky bridges of their own. ?Start reading Woman on a Shaky Bridge and before the hour is up, you?re likely to read it through to the end. You will, however, remember it for the rest of your life. Between these covers, Millicent Borges Accardi has gathered sixteen poems that blaze with passion, outrage, wisdom, wit, grief, and love that reckons with the grimmest possible truth? ?David Huddle, award-wining writer of The Story of a Million Years. Excerpt For John, For Coltrane This is romance of the reed, brutal, and all the while background ballads play. They say he looked ten years older than the music; they say the music used his body more than love. The music made changes, war--made trying harder than a man ought to into just silence, made it seem just for the silence of it all. He wanted to grab the tail of the night; he wanted to take it home and wrap its arms around his sound until it screamed. But the night, the night was timid, timid as the softest notes he knew how to play. And the night came in long, longer than he ever wanted it to. Thank you! Millicent Borges Accardi Order online at www.finishinglinepress.com and click on ?new releases? NOTES: Millicent?s writing awards include grants from the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Barbara Deming, and the California Arts Council, as well as artist residencies at Yaddo, Jentel, Vermont Studio, Fundaci?n Valpara?so in Spain and, this past September, Milkwood in the Czech Republic. Recent publications include New Letters, Tampa Review, Nimrod and Wallace Stevens Journal, but over 50 literary publications as well as a number of anthologies have featured her work, most notably, Boomer Girls (University of Iowa Press). _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 Thu Nov 5 21:33:00 2009 From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:33:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Objectivists/BMC/Stevens Message-ID: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Fascinating to hear that Duncan gave the WS Memorial Lecture (which is what *I* think it was called but I'd have to look it up) at UConn--I hadn't known that. Perhaps an even more unlikely choice, on the surface, was Louis Zukofsky in 1971, again surely George Butterick's doing. (Butterick probably couldn't have talked Olson into doing it, had he lived, but I bet he could have gotten Creeley.) The recording--close to 90 minutes--is on PennSound. I once used that occasion as the launch pad for an essay on some of the unlikely convergences between Zukofsky and Stevens, in a context, light years ago, when there was a lot of critical debate around Marjorie Perloff's "Pound/Stevens: Whose Era?" essay. (Interesting to see, Finnegan, that Marjorie is the featured speaker at this year's WS celebration. It's been a very, very long time, I think, since she held to the thesis of that essay that suggested one somehow had to "choose" between WS and EP as competing centers of modernism.) I played with the idea of extending it into a more general look at Stevens' surprising importance to a number of writers in the "other" tradition: Carl Rakosi, it turns out, and, as Skip says, Creeley. That became one of the many things I never got around to. But Mark Scroggins, eventually Zukofsky's biography, wrote a diss on LZ and Stevens. (Cornell, 1993, for anyone who's interested.) Still, who'da thought that Stevens was Susan Howe's favorite poet (which, she says, he is)? Alan From junction Fri Nov 6 02:17:07 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:17:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Objectivists/BMC/Stevens In-Reply-To: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> References: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: David Franks, then an MFA candidate at Johns Hopkins, where I was an undergrad, managed to get Creeley invited to read. This was in 1966. J. Hillis Miller gave the introduction. It was traditional at Hopkins to try to annihilate visiting scholars and readers with learned, hostile commentary or by overwhelming them with lengthy commentary. Miller tried the latter. He began by admitting that until asked to do the intro he had never read Creeley. He then proceeded to lecture for an hour on the apparent, to him, influence of Stevens. This didn't sit particularly well with Bob, who spoke almost as long, and somewhat scathingly, about the lack of influence of Stevens on his work and the overwhelming importance of Williams. Interesting side-note--Miller must already have been writing about Williams, as his Williams book came out later that year. Nobody, I think, owns Stevens. And he's had very little influence on the practice of younger poets, tho he's pretty universally admired. He's not so easy to replicate. Mark At 09:33 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >Fascinating to hear that Duncan gave the WS Memorial Lecture (which >is what *I* think it was called but I'd have to look it up) at >UConn--I hadn't known that. Perhaps an even more unlikely choice, >on the surface, was Louis Zukofsky in 1971, again surely George >Butterick's doing. (Butterick probably couldn't have talked Olson >into doing it, had he lived, but I bet he could have gotten >Creeley.) The recording--close to 90 minutes--is on PennSound. > >I once used that occasion as the launch pad for an essay on some of >the unlikely convergences between Zukofsky and Stevens, in a >context, light years ago, when there was a lot of critical debate >around Marjorie Perloff's "Pound/Stevens: Whose Era?" >essay. (Interesting to see, Finnegan, that Marjorie is the featured >speaker at this year's WS celebration. It's been a very, very long >time, I think, since she held to the thesis of that essay that >suggested one somehow had to "choose" between WS and EP as competing >centers of modernism.) I played with the idea of extending it into >a more general look at Stevens' surprising importance to a number of >writers in the "other" tradition: Carl Rakosi, it turns out, and, as >Skip says, Creeley. That became one of the many things I never got >around to. But Mark Scroggins, eventually Zukofsky's biography, >wrote a diss on LZ and Stevens. (Cornell, 1993, for anyone who's interested.) > >Still, who'da thought that Stevens was Susan Howe's favorite poet >(which, she says, he is)? > >Alan > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From cheekc Fri Nov 6 09:53:18 2009 From: cheekc (cris cheek) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:53:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] post _ moot, CFP reminder. Deadline approaching November 20. Message-ID: <1D2B93EA-F5CE-498F-9F1A-60CF1FB81192@muohio.edu> Call for creative proposals papers / performances / presentations (deadline November 20th). post _ moot: a 2nd convocation of unorthodox cultural and poetic practices April 22-25, 2010, Miami University of Ohio The second Post-Moot Convocation, an international conference to be held at Miami in spring of 2010 to foster creative exchange among poets in the early transnational 21st Century, will present papers / performances / presentations on a range of contemporary issues in poetics. Topics will likely include but will not be restricted to (we welcome other formulations): - ecopoetics - issues of writing and power - postconceptualist poetics - performance and performance writing - spatiality - the book as object - poetic economies - sound / noise - versions - state of lyric - signifying on older poetic traditions - translation - electronic archives Proposals (we do not need a conventional abstract) should take account of the fact that upwards of 50 people are likely to be included in the program. In other words we can consider presentations that have extended duration, but we hope not to get into exhaustive parallel paneling and hope for proposals of between 15-25 mins on average. We have a variety of presentation / performance venues available, dependent upon proposals. We can host work by participants unable to attend in person. We look forwards to hearing from you: the post _ moot collective (Maria Auxiliadora Alvarez, Tammy Brown, cris cheek, WIlliam R. Howe, Cathy Wagner) please respond to: postmoot at gmail.com ps post _ moot 1 occurred in 2006, with generous participation from Michael Basinski, Brian Brown, Peter Castaldo, Rachel Chase, cris cheek, Pete Drummond, Steph Elstro, Alan Golding, K. Lorraine Graham, Kevin R. Hollo, William R. Howe, jUStin katKO, Claire Keys, Steven Paul Lansky, Kirsten Lavers, Mel Nichols, Tom Orange, Camille Paloque- Berges, Nicole Proctor, Linda Russo, Rod Smith, Joshua Strauss, Rodrigo Toscano, Keith Tuma, Mark Wallace, Leigh Waltz, Tyrone Williams, Aaron Yandrich. post _ moot featured readings; screenings; book launches; a bookateria; curated digital stations; papers; panel discussions and performances -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Nov 6 10:27:20 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:27:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses Message-ID: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> One mark of the continuing "importance" of Wallace Stevens is surely the wide range of poets who have claimed him. Or part of him. There are several Stevenses to choose from, it strikes me. There's the rowdy hoo-hooer of many Harmonium poems, the poet who wrote "Bantams in Pine-Woods," "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," and so forth. There's the plainer but still very strange poet of the same period who wrote things like "The Death of a Soldier," "Earthy Anecdote," "On the Road Home," or "The Snow Man." There's the orientalist/imagist Stevens of "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird" and similar pieces. The cubist poet of "Man With a Blue Guitar." Then the meditative poet of the long blank verse meditations (not my personal favorite Stevens) of his very long middle period. And finally the "Rock" poet, who wrote those wonderful, odd old-age poems near the end. Others will slice the pie differently, but the point remains: there's a lot of ways to do it. Stevens's variety doesn't get as much notice as, say, Williams's does, but maybe it should. You know something's up when Robert Bly, James Merrill, and John Ashbery all can be considered Stevensian. In a more limited but similar way, I wish more readers would take notice of the variety Frost was capable of. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Fri Nov 6 11:23:32 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:23:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Objectivists/BMC/Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: Influence = replication? Who knew? Hal ?The highest purpose is to have no purpose at all.? --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > David Franks, then an MFA candidate at Johns Hopkins, where I was an > undergrad, managed to get Creeley invited to read. This was in 1966. J. > Hillis Miller gave the introduction. It was traditional at Hopkins to try to > annihilate visiting scholars and readers with learned, hostile commentary or > by overwhelming them with lengthy commentary. Miller tried the latter. He > began by admitting that until asked to do the intro he had never read > Creeley. He then proceeded to lecture for an hour on the apparent, to him, > influence of Stevens. This didn't sit particularly well with Bob, who spoke > almost as long, and somewhat scathingly, about the lack of influence of > Stevens on his work and the overwhelming importance of Williams. Interesting > side-note--Miller must already have been writing about Williams, as his > Williams book came out later that year. > > Nobody, I think, owns Stevens. And he's had very little influence on the > practice of younger poets, tho he's pretty universally admired. He's not so > easy to replicate. > > Mark > > At 09:33 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: > >> Fascinating to hear that Duncan gave the WS Memorial Lecture (which is >> what *I* think it was called but I'd have to look it up) at UConn--I hadn't >> known that. Perhaps an even more unlikely choice, on the surface, was Louis >> Zukofsky in 1971, again surely George Butterick's doing. (Butterick >> probably couldn't have talked Olson into doing it, had he lived, but I bet >> he could have gotten Creeley.) The recording--close to 90 minutes--is on >> PennSound. >> >> I once used that occasion as the launch pad for an essay on some of the >> unlikely convergences between Zukofsky and Stevens, in a context, light >> years ago, when there was a lot of critical debate around Marjorie Perloff's >> "Pound/Stevens: Whose Era?" essay. (Interesting to see, Finnegan, that >> Marjorie is the featured speaker at this year's WS celebration. It's been a >> very, very long time, I think, since she held to the thesis of that essay >> that suggested one somehow had to "choose" between WS and EP as competing >> centers of modernism.) I played with the idea of extending it into a more >> general look at Stevens' surprising importance to a number of writers in the >> "other" tradition: Carl Rakosi, it turns out, and, as Skip says, Creeley. >> That became one of the many things I never got around to. But Mark >> Scroggins, eventually Zukofsky's biography, wrote a diss on LZ and Stevens. >> (Cornell, 1993, for anyone who's interested.) >> >> Still, who'da thought that Stevens was Susan Howe's favorite poet (which, >> she says, he is)? >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Fri Nov 6 11:34:56 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:34:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Objectivists/BMC/Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: I'll rephrase. There's very little influence that i can see on the techne of the poems of younger poets. More on habits of mind, perhaps. Stevens is sui generis. At 11:23 AM 11/6/2009, you wrote: >Influence = replication? Who knew? > >Hal > >"The highest purpose is to have no purpose >at all." > --John Cage > > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > >On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >David Franks, then an MFA candidate at Johns Hopkins, where I was an >undergrad, managed to get Creeley invited to read. This was in 1966. >J. Hillis Miller gave the introduction. It was traditional at >Hopkins to try to annihilate visiting scholars and readers with >learned, hostile commentary or by overwhelming them with lengthy >commentary. Miller tried the latter. He began by admitting that >until asked to do the intro he had never read Creeley. He then >proceeded to lecture for an hour on the apparent, to him, influence >of Stevens. This didn't sit particularly well with Bob, who spoke >almost as long, and somewhat scathingly, about the lack of influence >of Stevens on his work and the overwhelming importance of Williams. >Interesting side-note--Miller must already have been writing about >Williams, as his Williams book came out later that year. > >Nobody, I think, owns Stevens. And he's had very little influence on >the practice of younger poets, tho he's pretty universally admired. >He's not so easy to replicate. > >Mark > >At 09:33 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: >Fascinating to hear that Duncan gave the WS Memorial Lecture (which >is what *I* think it was called but I'd have to look it up) at >UConn--I hadn't known that. Perhaps an even more unlikely choice, >on the surface, was Louis Zukofsky in 1971, again surely George >Butterick's doing. (Butterick probably couldn't have talked Olson >into doing it, had he lived, but I bet he could have gotten >Creeley.) The recording--close to 90 minutes--is on PennSound. > >I once used that occasion as the launch pad for an essay on some of >the unlikely convergences between Zukofsky and Stevens, in a >context, light years ago, when there was a lot of critical debate >around Marjorie Perloff's "Pound/Stevens: Whose Era?" >essay. (Interesting to see, Finnegan, that Marjorie is the featured >speaker at this year's WS celebration. It's been a very, very long >time, I think, since she held to the thesis of that essay that >suggested one somehow had to "choose" between WS and EP as competing >centers of modernism.) I played with the idea of extending it into >a more general look at Stevens' surprising importance to a number of >writers in the "other" tradition: Carl Rakosi, it turns out, and, as >Skip says, Creeley. That became one of the many things I never got >around to. But Mark Scroggins, eventually Zukofsky's biography, >wrote a diss on LZ and Stevens. (Cornell, 1993, for anyone who's interested.) > >Still, who'da thought that Stevens was Susan Howe's favorite poet >(which, she says, he is)? > >Alan > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >Forthcoming in November 2009. >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From skip Fri Nov 6 12:25:49 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:25:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses In-Reply-To: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5CC1746A76E044CE980365B2C637B027@win.louisiana.edu> Of the Stevenses David mentioned, I check the box before "All of the above." -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:27 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses One mark of the continuing "importance" of Wallace Stevens is surely the wide range of poets who have claimed him. Or part of him. There are several Stevenses to choose from, it strikes me. There's the rowdy hoo-hooer of many Harmonium poems, the poet who wrote "Bantams in Pine-Woods," "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," and so forth. There's the plainer but still very strange poet of the same period who wrote things like "The Death of a Soldier," "Earthy Anecdote," "On the Road Home," or "The Snow Man." There's the orientalist/imagist Stevens of "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird" and similar pieces. The cubist poet of "Man With a Blue Guitar." Then the meditative poet of the long blank verse meditations (not my personal favorite Stevens) of his very long middle period. And finally the "Rock" poet, who wrote those wonderful, odd old-age poems near the end. Others will slice the pie differently, but the point remains: there's a lot of ways to do it. Stevens's variety doesn't get as much notice as, say, Williams's does, but maybe it should. You know something's up when Robert Bly, James Merrill, and John Ashbery all can be considered Stevensian. In a more limited but similar way, I wish more readers would take notice of the variety Frost was capable of. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Nov 6 12:52:48 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:52:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses too In-Reply-To: <5CC1746A76E044CE980365B2C637B027@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I'd agree, pretty much, except for the really long meditations, "Ordinary Evening in New Haven" and such. I just never seem to get around to revisiting them. Tempting to say that none ever wished they were longer, except I suppose that that's not true for many readers. My blind spot, I know. I feel the same way about late Henry James, a sure-fire cure for insomnia if ever there was one. ==================== On 11/6/09 11:25 AM, "Skip Fox" wrote: > Of the Stevenses David mentioned, I check the box before ?All of the above.? > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:27 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses > > > > One mark of the continuing "importance" of Wallace Stevens is surely the wide > range of poets who have claimed him. > > > > Or part of him. There are several Stevenses to choose from, it strikes me. > There's the rowdy hoo-hooer of many Harmonium poems, the poet who wrote > "Bantams in Pine-Woods," "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," and so forth. There's > the plainer but still very strange poet of the same period who wrote things > like "The Death of a Soldier," "Earthy Anecdote," "On the Road Home," or "The > Snow Man." There's the orientalist/imagist Stevens of "Thirteen Ways of > Looking at a Blackbird" and similar pieces. The cubist poet of "Man With a > Blue Guitar." Then the meditative poet of the long blank verse meditations > (not my personal favorite Stevens) of his very long middle period. And > finally the "Rock" poet, who wrote those wonderful, odd old-age poems near the > end. > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Fri Nov 6 17:48:12 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:48:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses In-Reply-To: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> References: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC2D4A5AE833A8-6914-27400@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> I'll take this opportunity to plug the recent anthology I co-edited with Dennis Barone. Which has a wide variety of poets ranging from the formally inclined to the radically innovative, hitting all the stops in between... http://www.uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2009-fall/barone.htm A couple weeks ago we did a group reading at St. Joseph College for the anthology and I read a lovely poem by Lorine Niedecker called "Wallace Stevens." It was one of the many poems we missed as we were collecting poems for the book. Oh well, a New & Expanded Edition someday. Of late, prompted by that funny-if-it-wasn't-sad statement posted by Paul Zukofsky re rights to Louis' works, I've been reading a collection of shorter Zukofsky poems and Niedecker (Complete Condensery, Jargon Press) who almost entirely writes short poems. My feeling is that Niedecker is the much better poet of the two. Zukofsky's work, across the board, feels slight compared to hers. I found Niedecker's "Wallace Stevens" in the Complete Condensery, a book I only recently acquired. I had The Granite Pail, a selected edition edited by Cid Corman, and the poem wasn't in that book. Lesson: I should have upgraded to the complete poems earlier on. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:27 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses One mark of the continuing "importance" of Wallace Stevens is surely the wide range of poets who have claimed him. Or part of him. There are several Stevenses to choose from, it strikes me. There's the rowdy hoo-hooer of many Harmonium poems, the poet who wrote "Bantams in Pine-Woods," "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," and so forth. There's the plainer but still very strange poet of the same period who wrote things like "The Death of a Soldier," "Earthy Anecdote," "On the Road Home," or "The Snow Man." There's the orientalist/imagist Stevens of "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird" and similar pieces. The cubist poet of "Man With a Blue Guitar." Then the meditative poet of the long blank verse meditations (not my personal favorite Stevens) of his very long middle period. And finally the "Rock" poet, who wrote those wonderful, odd old-age poems near the end. Others will slice the pie differently, but the point remains: there's a lot of ways to do it. Stevens's variety doesn't get as much notice as, say, Williams's does, but maybe it should. You know something's up when Robert Bly, James Merrill, and John Ashbery all can be considered Stevensian. In a more limited but similar way, I wish more readers would take notice of the variety Frost was capable of. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Nov 6 21:58:04 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:58:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses In-Reply-To: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> References: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AF4E23C.5010709@nut-n-but.net> > Others will slice the pie differently, but the point remains: there's > a lot of ways to do it. Stevens's variety doesn't get as much notice > as, say, Williams's does, but maybe it should. You know something's > up when Robert Bly, James Merrill, and John Ashbery all can be > considered Stevensian. I (also a big fan of Stevens's) pretty much agree with what you've said, David--but am not so sure about the last sentence. My first thought is that the fact that many poets are considered Stevensian is because the few dominant critics of our time like Vendler know (and admire) Stevens, but don't know many other poets, so tend to find Stevensian things in almost any poet they write about. But I do it, too! I find more Roethke than Stevens in burstnorm poets--and, naturally, lots of Cummings in just about all burstnorm poets, including language poets who refuse to admit any influence of him. I find very little Cummings in conventional poets' work. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Nov 6 22:15:51 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:15:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses In-Reply-To: <8CC2D4A5AE833A8-6914-27400@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> References: <53A11AB0-9209-4EED-A8D2-F1B3BDA3BD7A@ripon.edu> <8CC2D4A5AE833A8-6914-27400@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AF4E667.4050603@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > I'll take this opportunity to plug the recent anthology I co-edited > with Dennis Barone. Which has a wide variety of poets ranging from > the formally inclined to the radically innovative, hitting all the > stops in between... What "radically innovative" poems do you have, James? Dennis, I would consider mildly innovative. I'm confident you have no visual poets, not that I think you should since I can't recall any of them who has done a visual poem having to do with or influenced by Wally. I, as you know, have done five or more poems intentionally in his mode, but only one is innovative, and it is not a visual poem. (It's a cryptographic poem, something I may be the only one in the world to have done, as I define it; but it's so specialized I don't think anyone else /should/ do it--I was able to make less than ten specimens of it. "Cryptographiku for Wallace Stevens," though, is a masterpiece. It may be in Anny's Poets' Corner.) Sorry, but when one has no publicity department but oneself, what is one to do? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Nov 6 22:29:26 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:29:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Objectivists/BMC/Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <4AF3448A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: <4AF4E996.5060204@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Influence = replication? Who knew? > > Hal Sorry to ruin your day, Hal, but I agree with you this time. > > The higest purpose is to attempt to bring others down to your > intellectual level by claiming that ?the highest purpose is to have no > purpose at all.?--Bob Grumman I hope that makes up for it. --Bob From by.tjmst Fri Nov 6 23:27:06 2009 From: by.tjmst (BY TJMST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 05:27:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] re:Business ethics :=fun and fellowship at the Osogbo Rotary intercity meeting of D9125 -news from Rtn Gbemi TIJANI MST Message-ID: <5908b9b20911062027k39104565ta0c9488674327ba7@mail.gmail.com> IN SPITE OF THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL MESS BARRISTER ? ROTARIAN, OLOWOGBOYEGA OYEBADE,PHD Lauded the 4 ?WAY TESTAS TIMELESSLY EFFECTIVE BUSINESS ETHICS The 1st of the NTERCITY MEETING of the new D9125 held at Heritage Hotels ,Osogbo for the South West states in Nigeria,Kwara,Ondo,Ekiti,Osun,Oyo under the affable and dynamic leadership of DG Dr Kazeem Mustapha was full of fellowship and fun. Four PDGS many AGs club presidents and active Rotarians gorgeously graced the event to share their experience on Rotary membership development and rules for recruiting and retaining quality. The keynote speaker was well chosen not only for his galaxy of credentials as one would come across an ex-executive governor,Dr Oyegun in the God's own coming Nigeria in the second Republic A Rotarian, an educator and a Barrister & Solicitor,Dr Olowogboyega Oyebade presented a challenging and erudite lecture on BUSINESS ETHICS..Dr Oyebade critically reviewed local and global financial mess not mainly due to the economic meltdown but due to large scale infection of the ethics in the professions and asked if Rotarians are or have been involved too!. His current statistics showed that individuals were as vulnerable as well -known corporate consulting organizations presenting misleading financial analysis to their clientele, abusing opportunities afforded by the information age. Digital stealing is now common because companies and their employees have fallen to any of the philosophical schools of ethics that persuade or catalyze corruption by chance or by choice or by necessity. Religious convictions do however moderate people' morality in business. For instance Islamic banks charge no interest, a Confucian will not be profit driven while a Quaker is a fair deal driver in business ethics. Prior to presenting the 4 -WAY TEST authored by Herbert Taylor in 1944 and adopted by Rotary International as a Rule and Road Test applicable for any decision or policy -making impact by groups in the society or school or corporate actions the speaker amplified the internationality of the topic by tracing the historical development of business ethics and x-ray the social contract theory, the Quality Control Movement and socio -cultural factors affecting corporate business missions from the Early philosophical scholars? theories to the 80s,90s to the helm of globalization in this 21st Century - - an era soaked with luculian and utilitarian values yet cleansable with the Rotary ethics of the 4 -WAY TEST. Is it the truth? Is it fair to all concerned? Will it build goodwill and better friendship? Will it be beneficial to all concerned?? As if in a tacitly socially critically reflecting moments.--.the membership development presentation section was both salacious as well as serious.One PGD even remarked at the end of the meeting that the gorgeous and agile female Rotarians that attended were mistaken for hotel staff. Lots of jokes were cracked as the DG called notable and diligent Rotarians to report their assignments.DGE ,Rtn Obafunso Ogunkeye presented the strategic plan for membership development shared at The Rotary Institute at Seychelles. The slides of dead and about to be resuscitated clubs in the five states were interesting and lively rendered by DG's special Aides and AGs.Incentives were promised by the DG ,Dr Kazeem .Mustapha for fruitful development. Evidently almost eight clubs might reemerge in the south west zone alone before this Rotary year ends..AGS Bimbo Makanjuola aka KABILA,Odetoyinbo,Adetuberu and their associates were commended accordingly. The meeting reinvigorated everybody to be a better Rotarian in whatever capacity they find themselves. Rtn Gbemisoye Tijani MST RC of Oluyole Estate,Ibadan D91 - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Sat Nov 7 00:26:28 2009 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 00:26:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry quizlet In-Reply-To: References: <4AF2E6B1.3050202@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830911062126j3e70443h57b37074d96a96cc@mail.gmail.com> I made the same "error," David On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:47 PM, David Graham wrote: > I was also robbed. ?They docked my grade for writing "rhyme scheme" instead > of "end rhyme." ?Geez, these teachers! > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > On Nov 5, 2009, at 8:52 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > http://quizlet.com/test/925956/ > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jbalizsprince Sat Nov 7 04:06:59 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 04:06:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re:Business ethics :=fun and fellowship at the Osogbo Rotary intercity meeting of D9125 -news from Rtn Gbemi TIJANI MST In-Reply-To: <5908b9b20911062027k39104565ta0c9488674327ba7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5908b9b20911062027k39104565ta0c9488674327ba7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911070106uebf79d9mfc0753d428580916@mail.gmail.com> "[G]orgeous and agile female Rotarians", Gbemisoye? Best, Judy 2009/11/6 BY TJMST > IN SPITE OF THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL MESS > BARRISTER ? ROTARIAN, OLOWOGBOYEGA OYEBADE,PHD > Lauded the 4 ?WAY TESTAS TIMELESSLY EFFECTIVE BUSINESS ETHICS > The 1st of the NTERCITY MEETING of the new D9125 held at Heritage Hotels > ,Osogbo for the South West states in Nigeria,Kwara,Ondo,Ekiti,Osun,Oyo under > the affable and dynamic leadership of DG Dr Kazeem Mustapha was full of > fellowship and fun. Four PDGS many AGs club presidents and active Rotarians > gorgeously graced the event to share their experience on Rotary membership > development and rules for recruiting and retaining quality. > The keynote speaker was well chosen not only for his galaxy of credentials > as one would come across an ex-executive governor,Dr Oyegun in the God's > own coming Nigeria in the second Republic > A Rotarian, an educator and a Barrister & Solicitor,Dr Olowogboyega Oyebade > presented a challenging and erudite lecture on BUSINESS ETHICS..Dr Oyebade > critically reviewed local and global financial mess not mainly due to the > economic meltdown but due to large scale infection of the ethics in the > professions and asked if Rotarians are or have been involved too!. His > current statistics showed that individuals were as vulnerable as well > -known corporate consulting organizations presenting misleading financial > analysis to their clientele, abusing opportunities afforded by the > information age. Digital stealing is now common because companies and their > employees have fallen to any of the philosophical schools of ethics that > persuade or catalyze corruption by chance or by choice or by necessity. > Religious convictions do however moderate people' morality in business. For > instance Islamic banks charge no interest, a Confucian will not be profit > driven while a Quaker is a fair deal driver in business ethics. Prior to > presenting the 4 -WAY TEST authored by Herbert Taylor in 1944 and adopted by > Rotary International as a Rule and Road Test applicable for any decision or > policy -making impact by groups in the society or school or corporate > actions the speaker amplified the internationality of the topic by tracing > the historical development of business ethics and x-ray the social > contract theory, the Quality Control Movement and socio -cultural factors > affecting corporate business missions from the Early philosophical scholars? > theories to the 80s,90s to the helm of globalization in this 21st Century - > - an era soaked with luculian and utilitarian values yet cleansable with the > Rotary ethics of the 4 -WAY TEST. > Is it the truth? > Is it fair to all concerned? > Will it build goodwill and better friendship? > Will it be beneficial to all concerned?? > As if in a tacitly socially critically reflecting moments.--.the membership > development presentation section was both salacious as well as serious.One > PGD even remarked at the end of the meeting that the gorgeous and agile > female Rotarians that attended were mistaken for hotel staff. Lots of jokes > were cracked as the DG called notable and diligent Rotarians to report their > assignments.DGE ,Rtn Obafunso Ogunkeye presented the strategic plan for > membership development shared at The Rotary Institute at Seychelles. The > slides of dead and about to be resuscitated clubs in the five states were > interesting and lively rendered by DG's special Aides and AGs.Incentives > were promised by the DG ,Dr Kazeem .Mustapha for fruitful development. > Evidently almost eight clubs might reemerge in the south west zone alone > before this Rotary year ends..AGS Bimbo Makanjuola aka > KABILA,Odetoyinbo,Adetuberu and their associates were commended accordingly. > The meeting reinvigorated everybody to be a better Rotarian in whatever > capacity they find themselves. > > Rtn Gbemisoye Tijani MST > RC of Oluyole Estate,Ibadan D91 > > > > - > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine Sat Nov 7 16:13:49 2009 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:13:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevenses and preferences Message-ID: <36cb1de80911071313j62fe4e3h7c6547171efb6c72@mail.gmail.com> > > i agree with david, that folks don't see frost as various--the dramatic > monologue is not how he is marked for me. I do believe that (especially > after reading stephen burt's heartfelt but missing it essay in the boston > review) he will have a revival--the way he is influenced by the ancients is > coming back into fashion. > > i will say that i have a few insomnia cures myself. Milosz, for instance, > though I acknowledge that he is a great poet. just one that i might still > grow into someday (as i have with frost). > connie > One mark of the continuing "importance" of Wallace Stevens is surely the > wide range of poets who have claimed him. > > > > Or part of him. There are several Stevenses to choose from, it strikes me. > There's the rowdy hoo-hooer of many Harmonium poems, the poet who wrote > "Bantams in Pine-Woods," "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," and so forth. There's > the plainer but still very strange poet of the same period who wrote things > like "The Death of a Soldier," "Earthy Anecdote," "On the Road Home," or > "The Snow Man." There's the orientalist/imagist Stevens of "Thirteen Ways > of Looking at a Blackbird" and similar pieces. The cubist poet of "Man With > a Blue Guitar." Then the meditative poet of the long blank verse > meditations (not my personal favorite Stevens) of his very long middle > period. And finally the "Rock" poet, who wrote those wonderful, odd old-age > poems near the end. > > > > Others will slice the pie differently, but the point remains: there's a > lot of ways to do it. Stevens's variety doesn't get as much notice as, say, > Williams's does, but maybe it should. You know something's up when Robert > Bly, James Merrill, and John Ashbery all can be considered Stevensian. > > > > In a more limited but similar way, I wish more readers would take notice of > the variety Frost was capable of. > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > Poetry Library: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Sun Nov 8 18:21:20 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:21:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] new Karr memoir Message-ID: <8CC2EE1508E2527-2E60-1E34B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2009/11/08/self_destruction_sobriety_and_the_light_of_catholicism/ A drinking life After a scarred childhood, years of self-destruction before sobriety and the light of Catholicism Before she wrote her first memoir, Mary Karr was already a poet. If every word matters to a prose writer, to a poet the words matter that much more. Take ?Lit,?? Karr?s dazzling new memoir, which picks up her story just after a harrowing small-town Texas childhood and adolescence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Mon Nov 9 09:56:03 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:56:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wayne Miller interviewed on after long busynes blog Message-ID: <8CC2F63E498C68E-2E60-263D0@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> http://ericedits.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/interview-with-a-poet-wayne-miller/ WM: ?What Night Says to the Empty Boat? began with a couple drafty lyric poems that were failing because they were too sentimental and/or could too easily be read as autobiographical. In each of them, I found myself wanting to distance the speaker from the emotional content, so I switched from first to third person. But then I found that a random ?he? in a poem didn?t seem particularly distanced?a reader could quite easily still read that ?he? as me. So I switched one of the poems to ?she.? At that point, I thought, hmm, what if those ?he?s? and that ?she? know each other; in other words, what if they?re characters. Then I decided that if pronouns without antecedents are annoying in prose, they?re probably at least as annoying in poetry (T.S Eliot notwithstanding), so I gave them names?based loosely on three particular people I knew. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Mon Nov 9 11:33:40 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:33:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berlin Wall Poems Message-ID: <731bb17a0911090833n2dd4a0eqaa257ad7b4ff7795@mail.gmail.com> Op-Ed | Poetry What Fell Apart, What Came Together Twenty years ago tomorrow, the Berlin Wall came down. The Op-Ed [New York Times] editors asked nine poets ? Eastern European, American, Russian and German ? to write new works inspired by that event. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/08/opinion/08berlinpoems.html ==== I haven't read these closely, but I do like the pieces by Yusef Komunyakaa and Marie Howe. I'd post them, but the poems are .jpegs, so I can't cut and paste. Best, Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha Mon Nov 9 15:00:26 2009 From: obodooha (Obododimma Oha) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:00:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berlin Wall Poems In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0911090833n2dd4a0eqaa257ad7b4ff7795@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0911090833n2dd4a0eqaa257ad7b4ff7795@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good share. Thanks. Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Op-Ed | Poetry What Fell Apart, What Came Together > Twenty years ago tomorrow, the Berlin Wall came down. The Op-Ed [New York > Times] editors asked nine poets ? Eastern European, American, Russian and > German ? to write new works inspired by that event. > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/08/opinion/08berlinpoems.html > > ==== > > I haven't read these closely, but I do like the pieces by Yusef Komunyakaa > and Marie Howe. I'd post them, but the poems are .jpegs, so I can't cut and > paste. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Mon Nov 9 16:00:55 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:00:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Motion has been accused of shamelessly 'ripping off' a military historian's book Message-ID: <8CC2F96DD6616D1-2F20-38DC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226410/Former-Poet-Laureate-ripped-military-historians-book-Remembrance-poem.html Ex-poet laureate Sir Andrew Motion says: 'I feel OK about it' Sir Andrew Motion has been accused of shamelessly 'ripping off' a military historian's book for his Remembrance Sunday poem. The poem, An Equal Voice, was published as a tribute to war veterans and described as a 'found' poem rather than an original work. The former poet laureate said he had 'stitched together' the words of several generations of shellshocked soldiers from the First World War to the present day. 'It's a poem by them, orchestrated by me,' he said in his introduction to the work. But he was accused of plagiarism and 'shameless burglary' by military historian Ben Shephard. Mr Shephard said most of the Motion poem was copied from his own book, A War Of Nerves, about the history of medical psychiatry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip Mon Nov 9 16:37:22 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:37:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: <8CC2EE1508E2527-2E60-1E34B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: When I was editing a little mag maybe a dozen years ago, young poets often sent me mss. with the circled "c" for copyright sign. Since that time, I've often told students that such was the sign of a novice (worried about nonexistent chance of theft, overly infatuated with their own phrasing, not knowing it's already "copyrighted," etc.) Who would plagiarize poetry? I wondered. Yet I've heard of a few cases, twice of students in college-level creative writing classes at different schools. Any idea how prevalent it is? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Mon Nov 9 17:00:04 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:00:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? Message-ID: I remember some years back Neal Bowers wrote a book called WORDS FOR THE TAKING about discovering that someone was plagiarizing his poems and publishing the plagiarisms. Bowers spent a lot of time and money tracking down this guy and never got any sort of satisfaction in the end. I've had two students plagiarize in twenty years of teaching creative writing. One gave me Auden's "Musee de Beaux Arts"; the other gave me some of the lyrics to some popular song. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 9 17:22:16 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:22:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911091422h2772f4a2jd5229862a085cfa7@mail.gmail.com> I know that the great boastful god, Umberto Eco, was sued several times for having illegally used the writings of other people. I do not know about the outcome of such suits. I do not know what you think, but when I read The Name of the Rose I thought he had simply put into a longer prose Borges' writings. What I know (I will keep all the names secret so that I can tell the story) that Professor Elaine - who loved only boys and criticized girls' composing, was offered by Charlotte a longish poem [Professor Elaine and all of us had to read and review it], well my critique was great, I really got into it - with its obscure shade hanging/dooming over it. Then here comes Professor Elaine in her stabbing at women outfit - who destroyed it line by line - I felt I was sinking under the sink seen my enthusiastic approach, to which Charlotte naively said: "I am sorry, I am sure I should have mentioned that it is by Antonin Artaud!" :-) On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 11:00 PM, wrote: > I remember some years back Neal Bowers wrote a book called WORDS FOR THE > TAKING about discovering that someone was plagiarizing his poems and > publishing the plagiarisms. Bowers spent a lot of time and money tracking > down this guy and never got any sort of satisfaction in the end. I've had > two students plagiarize in twenty years of teaching creative writing. One > gave me Auden's "Musee de Beaux Arts"; the other gave me some of the lyrics > to some popular song. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon Nov 9 17:32:19 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:32:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/9/2009 3:37:56 PM Central Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: > > > When I was editing a little mag maybe a dozen years ago, young poets often > sent me mss. with the circled ?c? for copyright sign. Since that time, I? > ve often told students that such was the sign of a novice (worried about > nonexistent chance of theft, overly infatuated with their own phrasing, not > knowing it?s already ?copyrighted,? etc.) Who would plagiarize poetry? I > wondered. Yet I?ve heard of a few cases, twice of students in college-level > creative writing classes at different schools. > > > > Any idea how prevalent it is? > > > Oh, you should read Neal Bowers's book on his own unhappy experience, Words for the Taking. A strange story. Being stalked for one's own work. Here is a discussion board with some links to eratosphere.com concerning the plagiarizing of a sonnet by David Anthony. I've had two cases of students plagiarizing poetry over the years, one of them a really bad dead baby poem off the internet and another a Millay sonnet slightly altered ("Love isn't all, it isn't food or drink . . . Nor any tube (as in inner tube) to men about to sink). The former student quickly confessed; the latter tried to claim she'd asked her sister to write a sonnet because she didn't have time herself. This story was probably a lie, but if it was true I wish I'd been there for the sisterly confrontation later that day. I now make all of my students, in lit and/or creative writing, read and sign a statement in which they acknowledge that any act of plagiarism will result in an F in the course. I don't much like doing this on the first day of classes, but as far as I'm concerned it's just a statement of policy that they must understand. Also cuts down on the "I didn't know" defense, for I keep their signatures on file. And I have had a couple (in lit classes) who have still tried to get by and have failed, in both senses of the term. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon Nov 9 17:33:33 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:33:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:00:33 PM Central Standard Time, AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > > I remember some years back Neal Bowers wrote a book called WORDS FOR THE > TAKING about discovering that someone was plagiarizing his poems and > publishing the plagiarisms. Bowers spent a lot of time and money tracking down > this guy and never got any sort of satisfaction in the end. I've had two > students plagiarize in twenty years of teaching creative writing. One gave me > Auden's "Musee de Beaux Arts"; the other gave me some of the lyrics to some > popular song. > Al, at least one of your plagiarists had some ambition! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Mon Nov 9 17:47:17 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:47:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? Message-ID: You know if she'd chosen a less well known Auden poem--there must be hundreds I don't know--she might have gotten away with it. Or were you talking about the guy with the MTV song? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Nov 9 18:00:55 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:00:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My favorite plagiarist: There was a legendary student at a school I once taught at in Chicago who for a term paper stole a master's thesis from the library, ripped the covers off, replaced them with a cover bearing her name and submitted it just as she'd found it in the library. Now, there's a time-saver. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 4:47 PM, wrote: > You know if she'd chosen a less well known Auden poem--there must be > hundreds I don't know--she might have gotten away with it. Or were you > talking about the guy with the MTV song? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Mon Nov 9 18:25:19 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:25:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagiarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've probably been fooled a time or two, I imagine, with students turning in a roommate's poem as their own, or the like. It may not alter the final grade much, for the obvious reason. And it's conceivable that someone has slipped by me an obscure poem from some journal. Probably less and less likely in these Google days. One thing I regularly do is look at their drafts, all of which are turned in. It's pretty hard to fake a *good* poem, at any rate, by cooking up the initial and intermediate drafts, I am confident. But who knows? If I've been fooled, by definition I don't know it. We who teach all have stories. A few years back a student turned in a short story to me that her friend had turned in to me the previous semester. That's often the case with plagiarists: if you're dumb enough to attempt it, you just may be dumb enough not to inquire which professor your friend wrote the story for. . . . One of my favorite anecdotes concerns the student at another school who turned in a plagiarized story. It was lifted from the most obscure journal imaginable, and the writer was (then) almost unknown. Sounds like a recipe for successful plagiarism, right? Well, as it happens, this student had the colossal bad luck to be taking a creative writing course taught by the author's spouse (different last name). ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Mon Nov 9 20:16:33 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:16:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash 2009 Message-ID: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> See some pix at the blog... http://wallacestevens.wordpress.com/ There was a recording done of Marjorie's talk, and I'll post a link to it as soon as it's available. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Mon Nov 9 23:11:54 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:11:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] hasta la vista Message-ID: I'm off to California and Mexico for a month in the very early hours of Wednesday. A million details to take care of tomorrow, so this is goodbye till December 10. Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 10 01:17:17 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:17:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagiarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911092217o61f8f888v95f4631968c4590c@mail.gmail.com> Ah, this is a really funny one! On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 12:25 AM, David Graham wrote: > I've probably been fooled a time or two, I imagine, with students turning > in a roommate's poem as their own, or the like. It may not alter the final > grade much, for the obvious reason. And it's conceivable that someone has > slipped by me an obscure poem from some journal. Probably less and less > likely in these Google days. > > One thing I regularly do is look at their drafts, all of which are turned > in. It's pretty hard to fake a *good* poem, at any rate, by cooking up the > initial and intermediate drafts, I am confident. > > But who knows? If I've been fooled, by definition I don't know it. > > We who teach all have stories. A few years back a student turned in a > short story to me that her friend had turned in to me the previous semester. > That's often the case with plagiarists: if you're dumb enough to attempt > it, you just may be dumb enough not to inquire which professor your friend > wrote the story for. . . . > > One of my favorite anecdotes concerns the student at another school who > turned in a plagiarized story. It was lifted from the most obscure journal > imaginable, and the writer was (then) almost unknown. Sounds like a recipe > for successful plagiarism, right? Well, as it happens, this student had the > colossal bad luck to be taking a creative writing course taught by the > author's spouse (different last name). > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 10 01:18:12 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:18:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] hasta la vista In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911092218p7f71bbebn45c148e24cca1a1d@mail.gmail.com> Poor Mark, you do have a stressful and repetitive life... On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:11 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm off to California and Mexico for a month in the very early hours of > Wednesday. A million details to take care of tomorrow, so this is goodbye > till December 10. > > Mark > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Tue Nov 10 02:02:11 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:02:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] hasta la vista In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911092302k7bdcfd81pc338f31e9fcb8f57@mail.gmail.com> Hasta la vista, Mark----you lucky man! Enjoy! Judy 2009/11/9 Mark Weiss > I'm off to California and Mexico for a month in the very early hours of > Wednesday. A million details to take care of tomorrow, so this is goodbye > till December 10. > > Mark > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Tue Nov 10 02:26:22 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:26:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash 2009 In-Reply-To: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Thank you so much, James! [BTW, I hadn't known we had such a dapper listmanager.] 'Friends & Enemies' of Stevens is a lovely name, and I appreciate your posting of a Stevens aphorism: ?Poetry is a pheasant disappearing in the brush.? May I post another wonderful Adagia quote to the one that you've offered: "A poem is a meteor." I look forward to the link for Marjorie Perloff's recorded talk. Best, Judy 2009/11/9 > See some pix at the blog... > http://wallacestevens.wordpress.com/ > > There was a recording done of Marjorie's talk, and I'll post a link to it > as soon as it's available. > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 03:01:52 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:01:52 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Being at the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival recently, I had the opportunity to resolve a question in my mind -- how does Philip Levine's poetry sound? (Some may remember a thread on New Poetry some time ago as to why Philip Levine ended his lines where he did, which illustrated a radical divide between English and American hearings of his work.) Follows a brief report, which may be of interest to the list. ************************ Aldeburgh now officially over -- Philip Levine was the last, a reading. Smashing stuff, and his rhythms make perfect sense when he reads. Got him to sign his book, and exchanged a few -- very few -- words. ME: I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your lines don't end on the page the way they do when you read them. PL: That's right. pause PL: It's meant to be that way. pause PL: I picked it up from Yeats. ME: (doubtfully) I'd have thought Whitman. PL: (frostily) Easter 1916. ME: (incredulously) But that's in three stress lines. PL: (even more frostily). That's right. I used to write in seven foot lines ... End of conversation. A man of few words, but a really excellent poet. ************************************** Robin Hamilton From Opus40-01 Tue Nov 10 05:49:11 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:49:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagiarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF94527.1040107@opus40.org> Tobias Wolff's new novel turns on the plagiarism of a short story. David Graham wrote: > I've probably been fooled a time or two, I imagine, with students > turning in a roommate's poem as their own, or the like. It may not > alter the final grade much, for the obvious reason. And it's > conceivable that someone has slipped by me an obscure poem from some > journal. Probably less and less likely in these Google days. > > One thing I regularly do is look at their drafts, all of which are > turned in. It's pretty hard to fake a *good* poem, at any rate, by > cooking up the initial and intermediate drafts, I am confident. > > But who knows? If I've been fooled, by definition I don't know it. > > We who teach all have stories. A few years back a student turned in > a short story to me that her friend had turned in to me the previous > semester. That's often the case with plagiarists: if you're dumb > enough to attempt it, you just may be dumb enough not to inquire which > professor your friend wrote the story for. . . . > > One of my favorite anecdotes concerns the student at another school > who turned in a plagiarized story. It was lifted from the most > obscure journal imaginable, and the writer was (then) almost unknown. > Sounds like a recipe for successful plagiarism, right? Well, as it > happens, this student had the colossal bad luck to be taking a > creative writing course taught by the author's spouse (different last > name). > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 06:34:40 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:34:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > Being at the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival recently, I had the opportunity to > resolve a question in my mind -- how does Philip Levine's poetry sound? > > (Some may remember a thread on New Poetry some time ago as to why Philip > Levine ended his lines where he did, which illustrated a radical divide > between English and American hearings of his work.) > > Follows a brief report, which may be of interest to the list. > > ************************ > > Aldeburgh now officially over -- Philip Levine was the last, a reading. > Smashing stuff, and his rhythms make perfect sense when he reads. > > Got him to sign his book, and exchanged a few -- very few -- words. > > ME: I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your lines don't > end on > the page the way they do when you read them. > > PL: That's right. > > pause > > PL: It's meant to be that way. I'd love to know the rationale. The only way he could do something few others haven't been doing for a hundred years? --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 06:53:57 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:53:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF95455.5070705@nut-n-but.net> Actually, I thought of a rationale for ignoring the lineation in one's poetry when reading it aloud (like Levine does): you'd be performing a sort of counterpuntal variation on the written version. Cummings, by the way, ignored his lineation, but I think not intentionally--or maybe just to show he was above petty rules. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 07:22:50 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:22:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> >> ME: I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your lines don't end >> on >> the page the way they do when you read them. >> >> PL: That's right. >> >> pause >> >> PL: It's meant to be that way. > I'd love to know the rationale. The only way he could do something few > others haven't been doing for a hundred years? > > --Bob I would too, Bob. I had a bit of a sense that he was giving me just as much information I needed, and no more, to work it out for myself, and if I couldn't, too bad. Roger Collett, who was also at Aldeburgh but not present at The Encounter, said it was probably that he'd been asked the question so often, he was bored rigid with it. Dunno. I'd have liked to ask a few or several more questions, but he was busy signing books and I didn't want to be more pushy than I had been already. (I'd earlier managed to get on the wrong side of a Romany poet when I mentioned the Winchester Confessions of 1615-16, but that's another story.) Anyway, I only managed to find a poem in the text with his last poem, "The Two" I think, and covered the page with slash marks. Result was I couldn't really take that particular poem in. Going to have to go back to it and look at my pencilings and think about "Easter 1916" in this context. But I only got back yesterday evening and I've been busy on other things since. Bottom line is that the rhythms were there, no question, so in the earlier thread, all you Americans were hearing something which none of us Brits could, but which was certainly there. Dunno whether now I'll be able to read the poems "properly" from the page -- I've had the experience before, oddly enough with among others years ago Tom Paulin who was also on the platform at Aldeburgh, when the rhythms only made sense after I'd heard the poems read. But in Tom's case, afterwards I could go back to the text and see what was there. Think I may have to find some recordings of Levine reading, on the Web. Usually (for me) this particular problem occurs when the poet is working within a very narrow range of local intonation. I think it's why I find Williams virtually impossible to read, while I have no trouble with Stevens or Pound. Tom Paulin I think was referring to something like this when he pointed to "the clitoral tick of an accent" in one of his poems. It's a sort of uncompromising stance to take vis a vis the reader, but there you are. Robin From atelierjewelweed Tue Nov 10 09:43:46 2009 From: atelierjewelweed (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:43:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2EE1508E2527-2E60-1E34B@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I once had a more somewhat well-known poet plagiarize me once and publish the results. This was ages ago when I was still a grad student. I was outraged and demoralized when I found out, but did nothing about it because I really did not want to be the MFA student drama queen. It is *very* hard to complain about this sort of thing without seeming petty. It did become clear to me over time though that this person "borrowed" heavily from at least one other poet, and really did suffer from a major lack of faith in her own work. My respect for her plummeted, but I walked away and kept walking. That said, I also knew a fellow grad student who I felt was way overly sensitive to any possibility that people were copying from her in the way you describe, Skip. It took weird proportions. I have to cut her some slack-- if she got ripped off once, maybe it was just hard to recover from. There but for the grace of God go I. Suzanne On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > When I was editing a little mag maybe a dozen years ago, young poets > often sent me mss. with the circled ?c? for copyright sign. Since that time, > I?ve often told students that such was the sign of a novice (worried about > nonexistent chance of theft, overly infatuated with their own phrasing, not > knowing it?s already ?copyrighted,? etc.) Who would plagiarize poetry? I > wondered. Yet I?ve heard of a few cases, twice of students in college-level > creative writing classes at different schools. > > > > Any idea how prevalent it is? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Tue Nov 10 09:58:47 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:58:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC302D70F3F4E0-1E68-4232@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Levine, from essays of his I've read, seems very proud that he cut his poetic teeth under the tutelage of Ivor Winters & John Berryman, who taught him prosody. Most contemporary poets de-emphasize the linebreak in their readings, don?t they? There's that early recording of Yeats reciting "Lake Isle of Innisfree" where Yeats makes a point a stressing the line's integrity, by saying he's going to read verse, like was verse (a rough paraphrase). Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:01 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind Being at the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival recently, I had the opportunity to resolve a question in my mind -- how does Philip Levine's poetry sound? (Some may remember a thread on New Poetry some time ago as to why Philip Levine ended his lines where he did, which illustrated a radical divide between English and American hearings of his work.) Follows a brief report, which may be of interest to the list. ************************ Aldeburgh now officially over -- Philip Levine was the last, a reading. Smashing stuff, and his rhythms make perfect sense when he reads. Got him to sign his book, and exchanged a few -- very few -- words. ME: I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your lines don't end on the page the way they do when you read them. PL: That's right. pause PL: It's meant to be that way. pause PL: I picked it up from Yeats. ME: (doubtfully) I'd have thought Whitman. PL: (frostily) Easter 1916. ME: (incredulously) But that's in three stress lines. PL: (even more frostily). That's right. I used to write in seven foot lines ... End of conversation. A man of few words, but a really excellent poet. ************************************** Robin Hamilton _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 10:13:29 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:13:29 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <8CC302D70F3F4E0-1E68-4232@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <8CC302D70F3F4E0-1E68-4232@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <508C919D159C46F38CE61C28D540A304@RobinLaptopPC> Levine, from essays of his I've read, seems very proud that he cut his poetic teeth under the tutelage of Ivor Winters & John Berryman, who taught him prosody. He spoke earlier about his admiration for Berryman as a teacher, but didn't say much about Berryman's effect on his own poetry. Most contemporary poets de-emphasize the linebreak in their readings, don?t they? It was more than this, and Levine seemed to agree -- that the line endings on the page actually ran counter to the way he read. It was easy to lineate from his reading, but as far as I could make out at the time (and obviously I'm going to have to look again at what I annotated) ... Well, I sure as hell couldn't see any relation. Maybe he was lineating in syllabics on the page and reading to the verse rhythms itself. Syllabics as such, after all, have absolutely zilch rhythm. Robin There's that early recording of Yeats reciting "Lake Isle of Innisfree" where Yeats makes a point a stressing the line's integrity, by saying he's going to read verse, like was verse (a rough paraphrase). Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 10 10:43:09 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:43:09 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So, let me see if I've got this right: Philip Levine is an asshole and for no good reason at all refuses to break his lines the way he intends them to be read (and the way he himself reads them)? Good to know. c From grahamd Tue Nov 10 11:02:32 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:02:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees fools everywhere he looks. I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. Not sure what you're getting at with the Whitman reference. Every one of Walt's lines is end-stopped. As far as my ears can tell, poets who in public reading don't respect their own linebreaks and typography are legion. I'd have to study her recordings with book in hand to be sure, but my recollection is that even Denise Levertov, who made rather a fetish of treating the printed poem as a "score" for oral performance, didn't always follow her own theories in practice. Williams and his famous Variable Foot may be the most notable case. I can't hear any relation between his theory, his typography, and the way he read the poems aloud. Levine's one of the best elders we have right now, in my pigheaded opinion. I've been reading his latest book, *News of the World*, and have been impressed by what a fertile old age he's having. On 11/10/09 2:01 AM, "Robin Hamilton" wrote: > Being at the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival recently, I had the opportunity to > resolve a question in my mind -- how does Philip Levine's poetry sound? > > (Some may remember a thread on New Poetry some time ago as to why Philip > Levine ended his lines where he did, which illustrated a radical divide > between English and American hearings of his work.) > > Follows a brief report, which may be of interest to the list. > > ************************ > > Aldeburgh now officially over -- Philip Levine was the last, a reading. > Smashing stuff, and his rhythms make perfect sense when he reads. > > Got him to sign his book, and exchanged a few -- very few -- words. > > ME: I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your lines don't end on > the page the way they do when you read them. > > PL: That's right. > > pause > > PL: It's meant to be that way. > > pause > > PL: I picked it up from Yeats. > > ME: (doubtfully) I'd have thought Whitman. > > PL: (frostily) Easter 1916. > > ME: (incredulously) But that's in three stress lines. > > PL: (even more frostily). That's right. I used to write in seven foot > lines ... > > End of conversation. > > A man of few words, but a really excellent poet. > > ************************************** > > Robin Hamilton > > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From jeff.newberry Tue Nov 10 11:25:25 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:25:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody Message-ID: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Graham wrote: > >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off > easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees > fools everywhere he looks. > > I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many > years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and > is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. > > A Theory of Prosody Philip Levine When Nellie, my old pussy cat, was still in her prime, she would sit behind me as I wrote, and when the line got too long she'd reach one sudden black foreleg down and paw at the moving hand, the offensive one. The first time she drew blood I learned it was poetic to end a line anywhere to keep her quiet. After all, many morn- ings she'd gotten to the chair long before I was even up. Those nights I couldn't sleep she'd come and sit in my lap to calm me. So I figured I owed her the short cat line. She's dead now almost nine years, and before that there was one during which she faked attention and I faked obedience. Isn't that what it's about? pretending there's an alert cat who leaves nothing to chance. *New and Selected Poems*, Knopf (1992) Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 11:26:01 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:26:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net> A thought struck me, Robin: the idea that a given poem might be lineationally indeterminant--so organic that its lineation changes from reading to reading so one can only print one version of it. In that case, though, the poet should footnote it or something. Or maybe put some Latin in from of it as in music (e.g. "allegro"). Print it maybe as prose with instructions to the reader to insert lineation at his disgression . . . --Bob From wwmorgan Tue Nov 10 11:40:30 2009 From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:40:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003f01ca6224$84925e10$8db71a30$@edu> What a fun poem! Thanks, Jeff. Bill Morgan From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:25 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Graham wrote: >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees fools everywhere he looks. I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. A Theory of Prosody Philip Levine When Nellie, my old pussy cat, was still in her prime, she would sit behind me as I wrote, and when the line got too long she'd reach one sudden black foreleg down and paw at the moving hand, the offensive one. The first time she drew blood I learned it was poetic to end a line anywhere to keep her quiet. After all, many morn- ings she'd gotten to the chair long before I was even up. Those nights I couldn't sleep she'd come and sit in my lap to calm me. So I figured I owed her the short cat line. She's dead now almost nine years, and before that there was one during which she faked attention and I faked obedience. Isn't that what it's about- pretending there's an alert cat who leaves nothing to chance. New and Selected Poems, Knopf (1992) Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Tue Nov 10 11:41:57 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:41:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Sacks paintings, with embedded text (Rilke, Celan, etc) Message-ID: <8CC303BDA569B40-1E68-6099@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> http://www.petersacks.com/home Someone called this art exhibit to my attention. A full-color catalog in pdf online. Sacks is a poet and he's married to Jorie Graham, I believe. He teaches at Harvard. But he paints in Normandy, according to the catalog. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 10 11:43:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:43:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: <003f01ca6224$84925e10$8db71a30$@edu> References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> <003f01ca6224$84925e10$8db71a30$@edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911100843u6a1aaf2amf3398fe29398452d@mail.gmail.com> I'd say that it is so graceful that it is true. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Bill Morgan wrote: > What a fun poem! Thanks, Jeff. > > > > Bill Morgan > > > > *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:25 AM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Graham wrote: > > >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off > easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees > fools everywhere he looks. > > I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many > years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and > is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. > > > > A Theory of Prosody > Philip Levine > > When Nellie, my old pussy > cat, was still in her prime, > she would sit behind me > as I wrote, and when the line > got too long she'd reach > one sudden black foreleg down > and paw at the moving hand, > the offensive one. The first > time she drew blood I learned > it was poetic to end > a line anywhere to keep her > quiet. After all, many morn- > ings she'd gotten to the chair > long before I was even up. > Those nights I couldn't sleep > she'd come and sit in my lap > to calm me. So I figured > I owed her the short cat line. > She's dead now almost nine years, > and before that there was one > during which she faked attention > and I faked obedience. > Isn't that what it's about? > pretending there's an alert cat > who leaves nothing to chance. > > *New and Selected Poems*, Knopf (1992) > > > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 11:45:27 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:45:27 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02B2C48981134DAE9B40AEB77F900CEE@RobinLaptopPC> > >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off > easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees > fools everywhere he looks. A bit like how he described Berryman as a teacher, then, David -- "He didn't play favourites. He murdered everyone." > I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many > years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and > is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. Ah, syllabics ... But I'd have thought Winters' precepts would have lead to a more obviously formal prosody. > Not sure what you're getting at with the Whitman reference. Every one of > Walt's lines is end-stopped. Ouch, yeah ... The minute I said it ... I could have bitten my tongue. Mostly I was completely thrown by the Yeats reference, and said the first thing that came into my head. So he'd have been justified in freezing me off completely at that point. But he had the decency to elaborate at least a little and point to Easter 1916. I still don't quite understand this, but tying in with what I thought he said afterwards, about previously writing in seven foot lines, maybe he saw Yeats as a way out of strict syllabics. SNIP > Levine's one of the best elders we have right now, in my pigheaded > opinion. > I've been reading his latest book, *News of the World*, and have been > impressed by what a fertile old age he's having. Yeah, he and Geoffrey Hill were easily the high points for me, a sense that this was the real thing, what we should be measuring ourselves against, not in a competitive sense but simply because this is more worthwhile than much around. Maybe it's something to do with age, a quality of majesty not possessed by mere striplings of sixty, let alone the children barely older than forty, But it made me want to write again, rather than being so overwhelmed I'd want to give up. Poetry as, to repeat myself, a *worthwhile discipline. Robin From skip Tue Nov 10 11:48:10 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:48:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <508C919D159C46F38CE61C28D540A304@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <56B445EC5A6741F6A026732A443E12EB@win.louisiana.edu> Lineation need only agree with the reading of the poem if (a "small if" this time) the text is seen as a score for ear and breath over, say, eye and mind, or any of the cognitive/perceptual combinations one can intuit while writing. Interestingly, Charles Olson claimed the page was a score for the reading of the poem and praised the typewriter since it created a regularity within which that score might be maintained as it is played. Yet, according to Nathaniel Mackey (who wrote his doctorate on Olson) and to my ear, Olson does not read the text in the manner he implies (2-inch space = twice as long a pause as a 1-inch space, etc.). Whereas Duncan (who insisted his second-to-last book be set in proportional font so that it corresponded to his conception on the typewriter) followed the lineation to the extent that he kept time with a single arm as he read. (Robert Bertholf encouraged Duncan to allow him to have his last book set--maybe doing it himself--using a series of grids to replicate in proportional font what Duncan had typed in non-proportional. Duncan saw and approved this typesetting on his deathbed. . . . To some poets it's incredibly important.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:13 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind Levine, from essays of his I've read, seems very proud that he cut his poetic teeth under the tutelage of Ivor Winters & John Berryman, who taught him prosody. He spoke earlier about his admiration for Berryman as a teacher, but didn't say much about Berryman's effect on his own poetry. Most contemporary poets de-emphasize the linebreak in their readings, don't they? It was more than this, and Levine seemed to agree -- that the line endings on the page actually ran counter to the way he read. It was easy to lineate from his reading, but as far as I could make out at the time (and obviously I'm going to have to look again at what I annotated) ... Well, I sure as hell couldn't see any relation. Maybe he was lineating in syllabics on the page and reading to the verse rhythms itself. Syllabics as such, after all, have absolutely zilch rhythm. Robin There's that early recording of Yeats reciting "Lake Isle of Innisfree" where Yeats makes a point a stressing the line's integrity, by saying he's going to read verse, like was verse (a rough paraphrase). Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 11:50:46 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:50:46 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> >A thought struck me, Robin: the idea that a given poem might be >lineationally indeterminant--so organic that its lineation changes from >reading to reading so one can only print one version of it. In that case, >though, the poet should footnote it or something. Or maybe put some Latin >in from of it as in music (e.g. "allegro"). Print it maybe as prose with >instructions to the reader to insert lineation at his disgression . . . > > --Bob I'm not sure that was quite it, Bob. The poems he read when I wasn't frantically trying to fit his voice to the lines on the page had a pretty powerful, strong rhythm. And the rhythm of "The Two", where I was marking the text, didn't seem arbitrary as what you say above might seem to suggest, simply at total variance with the lineation on the page. D'uh!!! Robin From halvard Tue Nov 10 11:51:14 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:51:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Jeff. Enjoyed it. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off >> easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees >> fools everywhere he looks. >> >> I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many >> years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and >> is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. >> >> > > A Theory of Prosody > Philip Levine > > When Nellie, my old pussy > cat, was still in her prime, > she would sit behind me > as I wrote, and when the line > got too long she'd reach > one sudden black foreleg down > and paw at the moving hand, > the offensive one. The first > time she drew blood I learned > it was poetic to end > a line anywhere to keep her > quiet. After all, many morn- > ings she'd gotten to the chair > long before I was even up. > Those nights I couldn't sleep > she'd come and sit in my lap > to calm me. So I figured > I owed her the short cat line. > She's dead now almost nine years, > and before that there was one > during which she faked attention > and I faked obedience. > Isn't that what it's about? > pretending there's an alert cat > who leaves nothing to chance. > > *New and Selected Poems*, Knopf (1992) > > > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 11:52:40 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:52:40 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > So, let me see if I've got this right: Philip Levine is an asshole and > for no good reason at all refuses to break his lines the way he > intends them to be read (and the way he himself reads them)? The short answer to that, Chris, would simply be , "No." Further than that, I'd be repeating myself. Robin From chris Tue Nov 10 12:58:38 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:58:38 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The only part of my synopsis that hasn't been confirmed in this very thread is my suspicion that there's no good reason for his refusal to set the lines as he would read them. So, what's the point of his doing that? Why not attempt to convey to readers what he means? c On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> So, let me see if I've got this right: Philip Levine is an asshole and >> for no good reason at all refuses to break his lines the way he >> intends them to be read (and the way he himself reads them)? > > The short answer to that, Chris, would simply be , "No." > > Further than that, I'd be repeating myself. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 13:12:08 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:12:08 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7AAE8A5C6A3547C09C2D54030CA5E5E4@RobinLaptopPC> > The only part of my synopsis that hasn't been confirmed in this very > thread is my suspicion that there's no good reason for his refusal to > set the lines as he would read them. So, what's the point of his doing > that? Why not attempt to convey to readers what he means? > > c Having heard him read, Chris, I'm pretty much convinced that he's a poet of enormous authority and competence, so I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, and is doing it for what [seems to him] is a good reason. The poem Jeff posted, at the end plays its final joke, lapsing into "natural" lineation -- "See, I can do it." It's not the case of some lamebrain who simply can't tell the difference between poetry and chopped-up prose. I think David's point about his earlier syllabics may be pointing the way. Also, I'm still baffled by the earlier complete split between the Brits and the Yanks on this list (who otherwise differ quite considerably among themselves). Says something, though quite what I don't know. Anyway, I want to go further. now to see if there are any readings of his on the Web. Or anyone point to these, save me the trouble of searching them out? Robin From editor Tue Nov 10 13:14:12 2009 From: editor (Roger Collett) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:14:12 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind References: <02B2C48981134DAE9B40AEB77F900CEE@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <038001ca6231$9c3d19d0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Rob, I thought of syllabics at Aldeburgh, but on a quick scan couldn't see any pattern Could just be me, but. Roger Collett Arrowhead Press http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." Jules de Gaultier ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind >> >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you got off >> easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and (b) sees >> fools everywhere he looks. > > A bit like how he described Berryman as a teacher, then, David -- "He didn't > play favourites. He murdered everyone." > >> I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for many >> years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor Winters and >> is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. > > Ah, syllabics ... But I'd have thought Winters' precepts would have lead to > a more obviously formal prosody. > >> Not sure what you're getting at with the Whitman reference. Every one of >> Walt's lines is end-stopped. > > Ouch, yeah ... The minute I said it ... I could have bitten my tongue. > Mostly I was completely thrown by the Yeats reference, and said the first > thing that came into my head. So he'd have been justified in freezing me > off completely at that point. But he had the decency to elaborate at least > a little and point to Easter 1916. I still don't quite understand this, but > tying in with what I thought he said afterwards, about previously writing in > seven foot lines, maybe he saw Yeats as a way out of strict syllabics. > > SNIP > >> Levine's one of the best elders we have right now, in my pigheaded >> opinion. >> I've been reading his latest book, *News of the World*, and have been >> impressed by what a fertile old age he's having. > > Yeah, he and Geoffrey Hill were easily the high points for me, a sense that > this was the real thing, what we should be measuring ourselves against, not > in a competitive sense but simply because this is more worthwhile than much > around. Maybe it's something to do with age, a quality of majesty not > possessed by mere striplings of sixty, let alone the children barely older > than forty, > > > > But it made me want to write again, rather than being so overwhelmed I'd > want to give up. Poetry as, to repeat myself, a *worthwhile discipline. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 13:43:09 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:43:09 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <038001ca6231$9c3d19d0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> References: <02B2C48981134DAE9B40AEB77F900CEE@RobinLaptopPC> <038001ca6231$9c3d19d0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Message-ID: > Rob, > > I thought of syllabics at Aldeburgh, but on a quick scan couldn't see any > pattern > Could just be me, but. > > Roger Collett I distrust syllabics so much -- a nasty, alien, unEnglish form -- that I'm probably the last person to get involved in this area. Can't see the point other than that any constraint, no matter how random or trivial, can sometimes be helpful in the generation of a poem. (I would of course except the Sapphic stanza from this stricture, in either of its Englished varieties. Who was it mentioned Cowper's "Lines Written in a Period of Insanity" at Aldeburgh, but seemed to be describing Isaac Watt's "The Day of Judgement: An Ode"? Oh god, it was Geoffrey Hill!!! Surely he wouldn't have got that wrong, would he? Would he?) [Oh, as an aside to Bob Grumman, I also began drafting my second ever visual poem in a moment of acute boredom during one of the other sessions at Aldeburgh. Which just goes to show you can't be too careful.] Robin From editor Tue Nov 10 14:10:23 2009 From: editor (Roger Collett) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:10:23 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind References: <02B2C48981134DAE9B40AEB77F900CEE@RobinLaptopPC><038001ca6231$9c3d19d0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Message-ID: <03b901ca6239$75cce2a0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Mentioned syllabics in passing to my in-house poetry editor and she recoiled in horror!!! Mind you, what an American would class as a syllable would not necessarily be what a British person would, so where do you get any count from? I seem to remember that the lines were around eleven syllables long, but not consistently so. Unfortunately we don't possess a copy here. Anyway this could descend into a pedantic discourse, again!! Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind >> Rob, >> >> I thought of syllabics at Aldeburgh, but on a quick scan couldn't see any pattern >> Could just be me, but. >> >> Roger Collett > > I distrust syllabics so much -- a nasty, alien, unEnglish form -- that I'm probably the last > person to get involved in this area. Can't see the point other than that any constraint, no > matter how random or trivial, can sometimes be helpful in the generation of a poem. > > (I would of course except the Sapphic stanza from this stricture, in either of its Englished > varieties. Who was it mentioned Cowper's "Lines Written in a Period of Insanity" at > Aldeburgh, but seemed to be describing Isaac Watt's "The Day of Judgement: An Ode"? Oh god, > it was Geoffrey Hill!!! Surely he wouldn't have got that wrong, would he? Would he?) > > [Oh, as an aside to Bob Grumman, I also began drafting my second ever visual poem in a moment > of acute boredom during one of the other sessions at Aldeburgh. Which just goes to show you > can't be too careful.] > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris Tue Nov 10 14:22:36 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:22:36 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <7AAE8A5C6A3547C09C2D54030CA5E5E4@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <7AAE8A5C6A3547C09C2D54030CA5E5E4@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > The poem Jeff posted, at the end plays its final joke, lapsing into > "natural" lineation -- "See, I can do it." > > It's not the case of some lamebrain who simply can't tell the difference > between poetry and chopped-up prose. Oh, I'm not saying that at all. I'm a big fan of Levine's work! I just don't understand the point of choosing to create a text that doesn't attempt to represent the intention of the reading. I could understand if there were some technical limitation or if there was no way to represent the reading style, but in this case Levine chooses to essentially misrepresent and then gets huffy when the little people ask the obvious question. I'm just curious why.. c From grahamd Tue Nov 10 14:24:54 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: Here's a sample poem from Levine's new book, *News of the World*. If anyone's interested, several more can be read on the book's Amazon page, using the "Look Inside" feature: http://www.amazon.com/News-World-Poems-Philip-Levine/dp/0307272230/ref=sr_1_ 1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257880994&sr=1-1 Before the War Seeing his mother coming home he kneels behind a parked car, one hand over his mouth to still his breathing. She passes, climbs the stairs, and again the street is his. We're in an American city, Toledo, sometime in the last century, though it could be Buffalo or Flint, the places are the same except for the names. At eight or nine, even at eleven, kids are the same, without an identity, without a soul, things with bad teeth and bad clothes. We could give them names, we could name the mother Gertrude, and give her a small office job typing?bills of lading eight hours a day, five and a half days a week. We could give her dreams of marriage to the boss who's already married, but we don't because she loathes him. It's her son, Sol, she loves, the one still hiding with one knee down on the concrete drawing the day's last heat. He's got feelings. Young as he is he can feel heat, cold, pain, just as a dog would and like a dog he'll answer to his name. Go ahead, call him, "Hey, Solly, Solly boy, come here!" He doesn't bark, he doesn't sit, he doesn't beg or extend one paw in a gesture of submission. He accepts his whole name, even as a kid he stands and faces us, just as eleven years from now he'll stand and face his death flaming toward him on a bridge- head at?Remagen?while Gertrude goes on typing mechanically into the falling winter night. --Philip Levine. News of the World. Knopf, 2009. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 14:29:32 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:29:32 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <03b901ca6239$75cce2a0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> References: <02B2C48981134DAE9B40AEB77F900CEE@RobinLaptopPC><038001ca6231$9c3d19d0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> <03b901ca6239$75cce2a0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Message-ID: <22E572F534BC4F098C7D108F316B5FB0@RobinLaptopPC> > Mentioned syllabics in passing to my in-house poetry editor and she > recoiled in horror!!! Rabbits are allergic to them. As are dormice. > Mind you, what an American would class as a syllable would not necessarily > be what a British person would, so where do you get any count from? I seem > to remember that the lines were around eleven syllables long, but not > consistently so. Unfortunately we don't possess a copy here. Anyway this > could descend into a pedantic discourse, again!! Interesting about the eleven syllables, Roger. John Lucas once said, if I'm remembering correctly, that the only point of syllabics was to have an eleven syllable line in order to avoid the iambic pentameter. Me, I'm trying to draft a 300 word proposal for a paper to be delivered at a conference on lexicography next summer, so don't have time to count my fingers at the moment. And why do you so rudely adduce the word "pedantic"? R. From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 14:31:13 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:31:13 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><7AAE8A5C6A3547C09C2D54030CA5E5E4@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: > I'm just curious why.. > > c Me too, Chris. I'm beginning to suspect that if there is an answer, I won't be the one to come up with it. Robin From skip Tue Nov 10 14:31:33 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:31:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics In-Reply-To: <03b901ca6239$75cce2a0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Message-ID: <9AA31A3D0E4F469BA15062FA14406A4F@win.louisiana.edu> "Syllabics. The random. The trivial." I hear. But I wonder what is not trivial and why? Iambic pentameter echoes the beating of the heart, no doubt, or tread of walking feet. Who says and why? Do they need an organic basis as an excuse to propose an arbitrary constraint? And how are syllabics or i-p any less arbitrary than a painter stretching a canvas a certain height and width? And rhyme schemes are completely arbitrary: every 40 syllables or whatever . . . structural rhyme being the predominate conception against which all else is gauged. How arbitrary is that? Another point, such constrictions are not simply generative, they can be instrumental, the size and shapes of bones over which muscles are stretched, the cavity filled an organ, flesh of one flesh. I wanted to write "the feedback is continuous," but feel that makes it seems too separable from the presence which it might become. I.e., I am not at all against the arbitrary. From skip Tue Nov 10 14:47:20 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:47:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <03b901ca6239$75cce2a0$6601a8c0@ROCKY> Message-ID: <477352BA1C954FCBB095A42BFC3BAF27@win.louisiana.edu> Pedantry would be following, lock-step, the iamb. :) "A pedant is someone who knows more than you do," someone once wrote. From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 14:57:06 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:57:06 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics In-Reply-To: <9AA31A3D0E4F469BA15062FA14406A4F@win.louisiana.edu> References: <9AA31A3D0E4F469BA15062FA14406A4F@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: There's random and random, Skip. English as a language is isochronic between stresses, which is what the iambic and other syllable-accent lines grow out of, not beating hearts nor stamping feet. It's also rhyme-poor compared with virtually any other language, which is why rhymes in it have such power. Some arbitrarinesses are less arbitrary than others, as some infinities are larger or smaller than their neighbours. Then there's the bite-it-and-see principle. Why does the Sapphic stanza uniquely succeed in English while *no other classical metrical form does, despite the efforts of poets from Sidney to Longfellow through Tennyson, and points between and after? It does and they don't, but damned if I can say why. Other than that the final / X X / / line of the Sapphic stanza gives a powerful closure. The ghost of the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot looms there, the metrical equivalent of the Nuclear Option. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Fox" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics > "Syllabics. The random. The trivial." I hear. But I wonder what is not > trivial and why? Iambic pentameter echoes the beating of the heart, no > doubt, or tread of walking feet. Who says and why? Do they need an organic > basis as an excuse to propose an arbitrary constraint? And how are > syllabics > or i-p any less arbitrary than a painter stretching a canvas a certain > height and width? And rhyme schemes are completely arbitrary: every 40 > syllables or whatever . . . structural rhyme being the predominate > conception against which all else is gauged. How arbitrary is that? > > Another point, such constrictions are not simply generative, they can be > instrumental, the size and shapes of bones over which muscles are > stretched, > the cavity filled an organ, flesh of one flesh. I wanted to write "the > feedback is continuous," but feel that makes it seems too separable from > the > presence which it might become. > > I.e., I am not at all against the arbitrary. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 15:01:10 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:01:10 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <477352BA1C954FCBB095A42BFC3BAF27@win.louisiana.edu> References: <477352BA1C954FCBB095A42BFC3BAF27@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: From: "Skip Fox" > Pedantry would be following, lock-step, the iamb. :) It was tried in English between 1560 and 1580 and the result was so gawd awful appalling that it was never tried again. Quoth the pedant. From skip Tue Nov 10 16:40:39 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:40:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Some infinities are larger than others." I like that! Are some finitudes larger than some infinities? Are infinities definite or indefinite? Odd or even? Etc. I take your point with the iamb. By the way, I don't make the case about heart beats or foot treads. These are somewhat silly arguments by a few neo-Formalists to whom I'd say making a pictorial form with text--whether of a thing or in any form conducive to the piece . . . and in any manner(breath/sight/etc.)--is not more arbitrary in a text-based culture than, say, rhyming every 30 syllables. But yes, the "organic" cause for meter is in the language itself. But the language has many causes: words look different on the page (Bernadette Mayer has an exercise of writing a "good looking line," with regard to nothing else), or how letters have semantic value (comparing sex scenes, say "u" with "e" in Christian Bok's "Eunoia" immediately shows this), etc. That is, the language has many (probably finite, but beyond our knowing) directives and constraints might work with, against, in energetic opposition to, in artistic apposition against (etc.) these directives. And, of course, unlike the instance you site, notions of the arbitrary are commonly quite arbitrary themselves, not to mention unconsidered in extremis. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:57 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics There's random and random, Skip. English as a language is isochronic between stresses, which is what the iambic and other syllable-accent lines grow out of, not beating hearts nor stamping feet. It's also rhyme-poor compared with virtually any other language, which is why rhymes in it have such power. Some arbitrarinesses are less arbitrary than others, as some infinities are larger or smaller than their neighbours. Then there's the bite-it-and-see principle. Why does the Sapphic stanza uniquely succeed in English while *no other classical metrical form does, despite the efforts of poets from Sidney to Longfellow through Tennyson, and points between and after? It does and they don't, but damned if I can say why. Other than that the final / X X / / line of the Sapphic stanza gives a powerful closure. The ghost of the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot looms there, the metrical equivalent of the Nuclear Option. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Fox" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind / Syllabics > "Syllabics. The random. The trivial." I hear. But I wonder what is not > trivial and why? Iambic pentameter echoes the beating of the heart, no > doubt, or tread of walking feet. Who says and why? Do they need an organic > basis as an excuse to propose an arbitrary constraint? And how are > syllabics > or i-p any less arbitrary than a painter stretching a canvas a certain > height and width? And rhyme schemes are completely arbitrary: every 40 > syllables or whatever . . . structural rhyme being the predominate > conception against which all else is gauged. How arbitrary is that? > > Another point, such constrictions are not simply generative, they can be > instrumental, the size and shapes of bones over which muscles are > stretched, > the cavity filled an organ, flesh of one flesh. I wanted to write "the > feedback is continuous," but feel that makes it seems too separable from > the > presence which it might become. > > I.e., I am not at all against the arbitrary. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip Tue Nov 10 16:52:28 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic plagarism . . .???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Over the years, I've dealt with plenty of plagiarism and even one of a creative assignment (not in a creative writing class), but my favorite story (probably apocryphal, I'm sorry to say) is of one of my colleagues who assigned a short story. The student "wrote" Poe's "The Black Cat" and turned it in. My colleague called the student in, gave him a copy of Poe's collected stories turned to the appropriate page and asked him to read as she quoted his plagiarized paper. A few sentences in, the student supposedly turned to my colleague and, in a shocked voice, asked, "Don't that give you the willies?" The problem? My colleagues veracity sadly to say. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 10 18:12:28 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:12:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2009 1:33:36 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > Seeing his mother coming home > he kneels behind a parked car, > one hand over his mouth to still > his breathing. She passes, climbs > the stairs, and again the street is his. > We're in an American city, Toledo, > sometime in the last century, though > it could be Buffalo or Flint, > the places are the same except > for the names. At eight or nine, > even at eleven, kids are the same, > without an identity, without a soul, > things with bad teeth and bad clothes. > We could give them names, we could > name the mother Gertrude, and give her > a small office job typing bills of lading > eight hours a day, five and a half > days a week. We could give her > dreams of marriage to the boss > who's already married, but we > don't because she loathes him. > It's her son, Sol, she loves, > the one still hiding with one knee > down on the concrete drawing > the day's last heat. He's got feelings. > Young as he is he can feel heat, > cold, pain, just as a dog would > and like a dog he'll answer > to his name. Go ahead, call him, > "Hey, Solly, Solly boy, come here!" > He doesn't bark, he doesn't sit, > he doesn't beg or extend one paw > in a gesture of submission. > He accepts his whole name, even > as a kid he stands and faces us, > just as eleven years from now > he'll stand and face his death > flaming toward him on a bridge- > head at Remagen while Gertrude > goes on typing mechanically > into the falling winter night. > > > -- This guy really knows how to write a Phil Levine poem! Who is he? Oh, never mind . . . Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Tue Nov 10 18:16:51 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:16:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0911101516x4226fcbfpcf1b3f691a25cd01@mail.gmail.com> Sam-- You are just blind to "his kind" of poetry. Jeff Newberry On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2009 1:33:36 PM Central Standard Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > > Seeing his mother coming home > he kneels behind a parked car, > one hand over his mouth to still > his breathing. She passes, climbs > the stairs, and again the street is his. > We're in an American city, Toledo, > sometime in the last century, though > it could be Buffalo or Flint, > the places are the same except > for the names. At eight or nine, > even at eleven, kids are the same, > without an identity, without a soul, > things with bad teeth and bad clothes. > We could give them names, we could > name the mother Gertrude, and give her > a small office job typing bills of lading > eight hours a day, five and a half > days a week. We could give her > dreams of marriage to the boss > who's already married, but we > don't because she loathes him. > It's her son, Sol, she loves, > the one still hiding with one knee > down on the concrete drawing > the day's last heat. He's got feelings. > Young as he is he can feel heat, > cold, pain, just as a dog would > and like a dog he'll answer > to his name. Go ahead, call him, > "Hey, Solly, Solly boy, come here!" > He doesn't bark, he doesn't sit, > he doesn't beg or extend one paw > in a gesture of submission. > He accepts his whole name, even > as a kid he stands and faces us, > just as eleven years from now > he'll stand and face his death > flaming toward him on a bridge- > head at Remagen while Gertrude > goes on typing mechanically > into the falling winter night. > > > -- > This guy really knows how to write a Phil Levine poem! Who is he? > > Oh, never mind . . . > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 10 18:31:00 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:31:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:17:13 PM Central Standard Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: > > Sam-- > > You are just blind to "his kind" of poetry. > > Jeff Newberry I am not! There a lot of Levine poems I like, and I like this one, too. But he does go over and over the same ground, you must admit. He's the Michael Moore of poetry (or Michael Moore is the Phil Levine of documentary film). Actually, if I'd seen this without having ever seen another P. L. poem, I would have said, "Hey, this is my kind of guy." As to your comments that I am "blind to" Levine's poetry, or to most any kind of poetry for that matter, I suggest, Jeff, that you peruse the contents of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology and Contemporary American Poetry. I would also like to tell you where to file your ignorant and insulting comment, but, this being a public list, propriety must prevail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Tue Nov 10 18:33:23 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:33:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry Message-ID: <731bb17a0911101533t6b155af3ued09f076cf110b63@mail.gmail.com> Sam, I'm so sorry. I was having a dig at Bob, who's always screaming about "his kind" of poetry. I actually agree with you about Levine. Again, man, I'm so very sorry. I didn't mean to insult you. Best, Jeff Newberry On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 6:31 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:17:13 PM Central Standard Time, > jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: > > > Sam-- > > You are just blind to "his kind" of poetry. > > Jeff Newberry > > > > I am not! There a lot of Levine poems I like, and I like this one, too. > But he does go over and over the same ground, you must admit. He's the > Michael Moore of poetry (or Michael Moore is the Phil Levine of documentary > film). Actually, if I'd seen this without having ever seen another P. L. > poem, I would have said, "Hey, this is my kind of guy." > > As to your comments that I am "blind to" Levine's poetry, or to most any > kind of poetry for that matter, I suggest, Jeff, that you peruse the > contents of *Poetry: A Pocket Anthology* and *Contemporary American Poetry > *. > > I would also like to tell you where to file your ignorant and insulting > comment, but, this being a public list, propriety must prevail. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 10 18:34:24 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: Poet fight! Poet fight! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor Tue Nov 10 18:56:36 2009 From: editor (=?iso-8859-1?Q?e=B7ratio?=) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:56:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Joy Trailer, Must see Message-ID: <112b36145fa946bb7ae8b46e025b416a.squirrel@webmail1.web.com> Big Joy Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g4S4tcQEKE Brought to you by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino (by way of Lord Jack Foley) From halvard Tue Nov 10 19:52:28 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:52:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <7AAE8A5C6A3547C09C2D54030CA5E5E4@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: My guess is that Levine likes the look of those lines, and that it has little or nothing to do with the sound. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > I'm just curious why.. >> >> c >> > > Me too, Chris. I'm beginning to suspect that if there is an answer, I > won't be the one to come up with it. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 10 20:00:24 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:00:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:35:02 PM Central Standard Time, AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > > Poet fight! Poet fight! > None at all. Jeff and I understand where we're coming from! Besides, I'm too old to fight other poets, though I might be able to go a couple of rounds with Phil. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Tue Nov 10 20:18:18 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:18:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0911101718g107fc204s46abdddf0c722e26@mail.gmail.com> Someone told me an (anecdotal? apocryphal?) story that Levine was reading at a small college in--Michigan, I think--and that after the reading, some snooty academic stereotype asked him a question that somehow belittled Levine's work. I don't know what the question was--in the story I heard, it was about how limited the narrative mode is or something along those lines. In the story, Levine challenges the guy to fight. I doubt there's any truth to that, but I'll bet Sam could take me and Phil. Jeff Newberry On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:00 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:35:02 PM Central Standard Time, > AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > > > Poet fight! Poet fight! > > > None at all. Jeff and I understand where we're coming from! Besides, I'm > too old to fight other poets, though I might be able to go a couple of > rounds with Phil. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 10 20:20:20 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:20:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine Message-ID: Well, Levine is 80 now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 20:26:29 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:26:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFA12C5.7070600@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Graham > wrote: > > >From what I've heard (mainly from former students of Levine), you > got off > easy, Robin! He's a man who (a) doesn't suffer fools gladly, and > (b) sees > fools everywhere he looks. > > I haven't paid much attention to his prosody of late, but yes, for > many > years he wrote extensively in syllabics. He studied under Yvor > Winters and > is apt to be vain about his prosodic knowledge, too. > > > > A Theory of Prosody > Philip Levine > > When Nellie, my old pussy > cat, was still in her prime, > she would sit behind me > as I wrote, and when the line > got too long she'd reach > one sudden black foreleg down > and paw at the moving hand, > the offensive one. The first > time she drew blood I learned > it was poetic to end > a line anywhere to keep her > quiet. After all, many morn- > ings she'd gotten to the chair > long before I was even up. > Those nights I couldn't sleep > she'd come and sit in my lap > to calm me. So I figured > I owed her the short cat line. > She's dead now almost nine years, > and before that there was one > during which she faked attention > and I faked obedience. > Isn't that what it's about? > pretending there's an alert cat > who leaves nothing to chance. > > /New and Selected Poems/, Knopf (1992) I like this poem a lot, but he's just saying lineation (stopping a line of poetry at the most aesthetically appropriate place to stop it) doesn't matter. Maybe not for him, but in the hands of one who knows how to use it, it's the one major poetic device free verse brought us. I don't condemn him for having this attitude--he has his tool kit, I have mine. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 20:37:55 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:37:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC>< 4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> A thought struck me, Robin: the idea that a given poem might be >> lineationally indeterminant--so organic that its lineation changes >> from reading to reading so one can only print one version of it. In >> that case, though, the poet should footnote it or something. Or >> maybe put some Latin in from of it as in music (e.g. "allegro"). >> Print it maybe as prose with instructions to the reader to insert >> lineation at his disgression . . . >> >> --Bob > > I'm not sure that was quite it, Bob. The poems he read when I wasn't > frantically trying to fit his voice to the lines on the page had a > pretty powerful, strong rhythm. And the rhythm of "The Two", where I > was marking the text, didn't seem arbitrary as what you say above > might seem to suggest, simply at total variance with the lineation on > the page. > > D'uh!!! I wasn't saying this was Levine's intention but trying to find a rationale for not pausing at the end of each line of poetry in a reading. Quick question: I haven't yet read all the posts to this thread but my impression is that those in the thread seem to think lineation has to do with getting the sound of a poem right only. It's a helluva lot more than that. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 21:45:23 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:45:23 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Quick question: I haven't yet read all the posts to this thread but my > impression is that those in the thread seem to think lineation has to do > with getting the sound of a poem right only. It's a helluva lot more than > that. > > --Bob Accepted, Bob, as a general point, and realising that I hadn't taken account of the points Skip made in his latest post and was thinking too narrowly. This is all very well, but when I asked Levine about this, he not only said it was intended but that it came from his reading of Yeats, and specifically "Easter 1916". How does that fit (assuming he wasn't simply having me on)? -- he was very clear about this. It was very specific, and he seemed to agree when I gulped that Yeats used a three-stress line there. So it has to do with sound, surely? And the ending of "A Theory of Prosody" (which I too like, incidentally) relaxes back into what is (for me) the norm of unrhymed lineation. Come to think of it, the last seven lines in that poem each have three stong beats, a la "Easter 1916" (as does Auden's "September 1, 1939" which nods at that Yeats poem in its rhythm). D'uh! again. Robin From robin.hamilton2 Tue Nov 10 21:52:12 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:52:12 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: <4AFA12C5.7070600@nut-n-but.net> References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com> <4AFA12C5.7070600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: << I like this poem a lot, but he's just saying lineation (stopping a line of poetry at the most aesthetically appropriate place to stop it) doesn't matter. Maybe not for him, but in the hands of one who knows how to use it, it's the one major poetic device free verse brought us. I don't condemn him for having this attitude--he has his tool kit, I have mine. --Bob G. >> Bob, Bob, that's reducing the poem to a bare conceptual statement. There's a helluva lot more to it than that. And anyway, he's *not saying that lineation doesn't matter -- it matters to the cat (and by extension, Levine), just matters in a different way than we expect. It's not arbitrary unless the cat is simply a box of dice, which it isn't or Levine would have used that as his image. Robin From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 22:01:02 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:01:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0911101533t6b155af3ued09f076cf110b63@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0911101533t6b155af3ued09f076cf110b63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFA28EE.9040807@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Sam, > > I'm so sorry. I was having a dig at Bob, who's always screaming about > "his kind" of poetry. Not quite always, Jeff. And if I want to make a point about, say, Sam's anthology's not representing the range of poetry he implies it does, what's wrong with referring to "my kind of poetry" since most everyone here knows what that is instead of "visual, sound, mathematical, infraverbal, cryptographic, computer, etc. poetry," and why shouldn't I be allowed to, and who else is going to if not I? Note: I don't really know that none of these kinds of poetry are represented in his book, just strongly suspect they are not. --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 22:03:40 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:03:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC>< 4AF99419.7010505@nut-n-but.net><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFA298C.3010700@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Quick question: I haven't yet read all the posts to this thread but >> my impression is that those in the thread seem to think lineation has >> to do with getting the sound of a poem right only. It's a helluva >> lot more than that. >> >> --Bob > > Accepted, Bob, as a general point, and realising that I hadn't taken > account of the points Skip made in his latest post and was thinking > too narrowly. > > This is all very well, but when I asked Levine about this, he not only > said it was intended but that it came from his reading of Yeats, and > specifically "Easter 1916". > > How does that fit (assuming he wasn't simply having me on)? -- he was > very clear about this. It was very specific, and he seemed to agree > when I gulped that Yeats used a three-stress line there. > > So it has to do with sound, surely? > > And the ending of "A Theory of Prosody" (which I too like, > incidentally) relaxes back into what is (for me) the norm of unrhymed > lineation. > > Come to think of it, the last seven lines in that poem each have three > stong beats, a la "Easter 1916" (as does Auden's "September 1, 1939" > which nods at that Yeats poem in its rhythm). > > D'uh! again. > > Robin Right, Robin--but I was leaving Levine again for the general subject of lineation, as I believe many in the thread have. Also, though, Levine may have had reasona not related to sound for his way of reading. --Bob From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 10 22:27:45 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:27:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2009 9:00:50 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Not quite always, Jeff. And if I want to make a point about, say, Sam's > anthology's not representing the range of poetry he implies it does, > what's wrong with referring to "my kind of poetry" since most everyone > here knows what that is instead of "visual, sound, mathematical, > infraverbal, cryptographic, computer, etc. poetry," and why shouldn't I > be allowed to, and who else is going to if not I? Note: I don't really > know that none of these kinds of poetry are represented in his book, > just strongly suspect they are not. > > --Bob > Bob, instead of always strongly suspecting, why don't you just look at the books? I admit that I have only three or four examples of the type of poetry you're always talking about, for the fact that anthologies have to be typeset rather than photographically reproduced makes presenting them a problem. Besides, "visual" poetry is always going to on the fringes of the poetic canon, given the simple fact that it can't really be appreciated outside of an art gallery, where even the picture-gazers are going to ask, "Why is this stuff in here and not in a book?" Anyway, I have poems by Herbert, cummings, Swenson, and Chappell that have strong visual components, and I have written and published a couple myself. So, Bob, how can you make any kind of point about anthologies you admit that you haven't looked at? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 10 22:28:59 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:28:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine & Prosody In-Reply-To: References: <731bb17a0911100825t3f01a2a3s35a5eece8b035734@mail.gmail.com><4AFA12C5.7070600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFA2F7B.904@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > I like this poem a lot, but he's just saying lineation (stopping a > line of poetry at the most aesthetically appropriate place to stop it) > doesn't matter. Maybe not for him, but in the hands of one who knows > how to use it, it's the one major poetic device free verse brought > us. I don't condemn him for having this attitude--he has his tool > kit, I have mine. > > --Bob G. >>> > > Bob, Bob, that's reducing the poem to a bare conceptual statement. No, it isn't, Robin--it's saying what the poem is saying about lineation. What the poem is also saying is another matter. > There's a helluva lot more to it than that. > > And anyway, he's *not saying that lineation doesn't matter -- it > matters to the cat (and by extension, Levine), just matters in a > different way than we expect. It's not arbitrary unless the cat is > simply a box of dice, which it isn't or Levine would have used that as > his image. > > Robin I would partly agree with you--but that cat's idea of lineation is a mite limited, wouldn't you say? And the cat isn't writing the poem, he is. --Bob From jforjames Tue Nov 10 22:35:26 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:35:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC30972451190C-8114-7BF@webmail-m003.sysops.aol.com> Don't most poets repeat themselves to a large extent either in vested style or pet subject matter? I don't think Levine, irracible as he may be, would even disagree with you. To me the ur-Levine poem is as good as nth-Levine poem. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:17:13 PM Central Standard Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: Sam-- You are just blind to "his kind" of poetry. Jeff Newberry I am not! There a lot of Levine poems I like, and I like this one, too. But he does go over and over the same ground, you must admit. He's the Michael Moore of poetry (or Michael Moore is the Phil Levine of documentary film). Actually, if I'd seen this without having ever seen another P. L. poem, I would have said, "Hey, this is my kind of guy." As to your comments that I am "blind to" Levine's poetry, or to most any kind of poetry for that matter, I suggest, Jeff, that you peruse the contents of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology and Contemporary American Poetry. I would also like to tell you where to file your ignorant and insulting comment, but, this being a public list, propriety must prevail. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 11 07:24:00 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:24:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFAACE0.90207@nut-n-but.net> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2009 9:00:50 PM Central Standard Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >> Not quite always, Jeff. And if I want to make a point about, say, Sam's >> anthology's not representing the range of poetry he implies it does, >> what's wrong with referring to "my kind of poetry" since most everyone >> here knows what that is instead of "visual, sound, mathematical, >> infraverbal, cryptographic, computer, etc. poetry," and why shouldn't I >> be allowed to, and who else is going to if not I? Note: I don't really >> know that none of these kinds of poetry are represented in his book, >> just strongly suspect they are not. >> >> --Bob > > Bob, instead of always /strongly suspecti/ng, why don't you just > /look/ at the books? I admit that I have only three or four examples > of the type of poetry you're always talking about, for the fact that > anthologies have to be typeset rather than photographically reproduced > makes presenting them a problem. Besides, "visual" poetry is always > going to on the fringes of the poetic canon, given the simple fact > that it can't really be appreciated outside of an art gallery, where > even the picture-gazers are going to ask, "Why is this stuff in here > and not in a book?" Anyway, I have poems by Herbert, cummings, > Swenson, and Chappell that have strong visual components, and I have > written and published a couple myself. > > So, Bob, how can you make /any/ kind of point about anthologies you > admit that you haven't looked at? By knowing the tastes and breadth of poetry knowledge of the editor, by knowing what is almost always published in mainstream anthologies, by having read about it, by not having heard from anyone that "my kind of stuff" is in your anthology. And what you say in defense of the range of your anthology suggests I am right. Hardly any visual poetry, and no contemporary visual poetry (unless Chappell, with whom I'm unfamiliar, is alive), and you don't mention any of the other kinds of poetry I mentioned. And your scanting of visual poetry as a fringe sort of art no would appreciate except in an art gallery certainly suggests rather strongly that it's not "your kind of stuff." Also without looking at your anthology I know it's a good one for the (valuable) kind of thing it does. I would add that, of course, I as usual exaggerated for polemical effect, but not by much: implying, for instance, that you had no visual poetry in your anthology instead of a token amount. Final word, a question: would you consider yourself unable to say anything about an anthology of contemporary poetry I published until you'd looked at it? ----Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Wed Nov 11 09:57:32 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:57:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry Message-ID: In a message dated 11/11/2009 6:23:51 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Final word, a question: would you consider yourself unable to say anything > about an anthology of contemporary poetry I published until you'd looked > at it? > > ----Bob > > > Dah, yeah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 10:07:13 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:07:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine: So Sorry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFAD321.4070409@opus40.org> One is always able to say something -- I could make certain general predictions about a Grumman anthology before reading it, but I'd keep those predictions to myself until I'd had a chance to test them out against the real thing. Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/2009 6:23:51 AM Central Standard Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >> >> Final word, a question: would you consider yourself unable to say >> anything about an anthology of contemporary poetry I published until >> you'd looked at it? >> >> ----Bob >> >> > > > Dah, yeah. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris Wed Nov 11 11:47:26 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:47:26 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > I wasn't saying this was Levine's intention but trying to find a rationale > for not pausing at the end of each line of poetry in a reading. I can buy the idea that the poet intends so many different potential readings that the lineation is no longer intended to provide any significant clue to the reading-- it even fits in with my long-supposed idea that most poets nowadays don't write for reading (aloud) at all and that line breaks are only occasionally meaningful in any sense beyond the visual-- but it seems rare that anyone wants to agree (or admit to) that because even free verse poets tend to publicly bow down before the unit of the line as a defense against charges of randomness, lack of art, etc... c From robin.hamilton2 Wed Nov 11 12:17:14 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:17:14 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> > but it seems rare that anyone wants > to agree (or admit to) that because even free verse poets tend to > publicly bow down before the unit of the line as a defense against > charges of randomness, lack of art, etc... > > c i think this is an argument *within the bounds of free verse, Chris, rather than free verse vs. metrical verse (and Levine's citing of "Easter 1916" suggests that if there is a metrical component involved, it would be stress metrics rather than syllable-accent metrics) ... But this whole thing is becoming bleeding ridiculous. Doesn't someone have contact with Levine, or know someone who does, so we could ask him directly about this? I wish now I had been a bit more obnoxious at Aldeburgh, and pushed the matter further, rather than politely withdrawing and letting him carry on signing books. Just goes to show that when it comes to metrics, politeness is a self-defeating virtue. Robin (who is in a filthy mood as he's typing this with one finger while on the phone for the tenth time in two weeks trying to get his PayPal account sorted out. Oh bloody hell, two fingers now, since the phone call timed out on me for the *third time* on this current attempt, as I was passed from one adviser to another. *Not a happy camper, me. :-(((( R.) From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 11 12:28:43 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:28:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine In-Reply-To: <8CC30972451190C-8114-7BF@webmail-m003.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC30972451190C-8114-7BF@webmail-m003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911110928h4a289b0ave61c08026a933856@mail.gmail.com> I am with those who praise Levine, so much so that I recycled right there the poem David sent over. On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:35 AM, wrote: > Don't most poets repeat themselves to a large extent either in vested style > or pet subject matter? I don't think Levine, irracible as he may be, would > even disagree with you. > To me the ur-Levine poem is as good as nth-Levine poem. > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:31 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine > > In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:17:13 PM Central Standard Time, > jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: > > > Sam-- > > You are just blind to "his kind" of poetry. > > Jeff Newberry > > > > I am not! There a lot of Levine poems I like, and I like this one, too. > But he does go over and over the same ground, you must admit. He's the > Michael Moore of poetry (or Michael Moore is the Phil Levine of documentary > film). Actually, if I'd seen this without having ever seen another P. L. > poem, I would have said, "Hey, this is my kind of guy." > > As to your comments that I am "blind to" Levine's poetry, or to most any > kind of poetry for that matter, I suggest, Jeff, that you peruse the > contents of *Poetry: A Pocket Anthology* and *Contemporary American Poetry > *. > > I would also like to tell you where to file your ignorant and insulting > comment, but, this being a public list, propriety must prevail. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Wed Nov 11 12:31:45 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:31:45 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > i think this is an argument *within the bounds of free verse, Chris, rather > than free verse vs. metrical verse (and Levine's citing of "Easter 1916" > suggests that if there is a metrical component involved, it would be stress > metrics rather than syllable-accent metrics) ... I understand this is a discussion within the realm of free verse... but in my experience (and I defer to the much greater experience on this list), free verse poets tend to talk about the line as a fundamental unit of the poem, that lineation really means something, that the break aren't arbitrary, etc etc etc. But in my experience *reading* free verse, it seems that the line break really doesn't mean that much that often, at least not in terms of being an indicator how a poem is meant to be read. Some of the time it feels arbitrary, sometimes there are obvious rhetorical effects... but most of the time it appears to be a visual concern. And certainly listening to poets read tends to confirm that opinion-- few seem to read the poems as if the line breaks mean anything. I don't have a problem with any of them, but when a poet tries to have his/her cake and eat it too, maintaining that the breaks have meaning beyond the visual, but without any support in the metrics or the way he/she reads the poem... that seems a bit like the poet just screwing with the audience. c From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 12:41:26 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:41:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> Why is it so odd a concept that poetry is both aural and visual, and that each of these receives a different emphasis depending on whether one is dealing with the words on a page or the words spoken? And if Philip Levine has his own idiosyncratic relationship to his own words and likes to play those balances off each other, that doesn't make him crazy, nor does it mean everyone has to follow his example, any more than we all have to follow Bob Grumman's. Or...wait a second...do we? Chris Lott wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> I wasn't saying this was Levine's intention but trying to find a rationale >> for not pausing at the end of each line of poetry in a reading. >> > > I can buy the idea that the poet intends so many different potential > readings that the lineation is no longer intended to provide any > significant clue to the reading-- it even fits in with my > long-supposed idea that most poets nowadays don't write for reading > (aloud) at all and that line breaks are only occasionally meaningful > in any sense beyond the visual-- but it seems rare that anyone wants > to agree (or admit to) that because even free verse poets tend to > publicly bow down before the unit of the line as a defense against > charges of randomness, lack of art, etc... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris Wed Nov 11 12:52:29 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:52:29 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> Message-ID: There's nothing wrong with it, but unless you move in the direction of some kind of true visual poetry, doesn't it seem that the effect/meaning of the visual component of breaking lines ala Levine (and many others, I know) is so miniscule as to be nearly non-existent? I mean, making all the lines approximately the same length isn't making much of a visual statement and it comes at the cost of readers having any idea how the composer of the poem plans for the poem to be read. If poetry is written for the ear (and it doesn't have to be, of course, but Levine does print his work and tirelessly read it) then shouldn't the cues that are intended for the ear/reading only be sacrificed in order to gain, well, something? Don't get me wrong... I like free verse poetry more than any other form... except maybe the prose poem. But if Levine's line breaks mean nothing for me as a reader/aurally and the visual effect that I am seeing is all there is (meaning: it ain't much), then why not write it as a prose poem? Or why not write it in a way that assumes the aural reading *matters*? And that might be the crux of it-- maybe the aural aspect really just doesn't matter. But if that's the case, Levine and others could do a heck of a lot more visually than present a uniform block. c On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:41 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Why is it so odd a concept that poetry is both aural and visual, and that > each of these receives a different emphasis depending on whether one is > dealing with the words on a page or the words spoken? And if Philip Levine > has his own idiosyncratic relationship to his own words and likes to play > those balances off each other, that doesn't make him crazy, nor does it mean > everyone has to follow his example, any more than we all have to follow Bob > Grumman's. > > Or...wait a second...do we? > > Chris Lott wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I wasn't saying this was Levine's intention but trying to find a >>> rationale >>> for not pausing at the end of each line of poetry in a reading. >>> >> >> I can buy the idea that the poet intends so many different potential >> readings that the lineation is no longer intended to provide any >> significant clue to the reading-- it even fits in with my >> long-supposed idea that most poets nowadays don't write for reading >> (aloud) at all and that line breaks are only occasionally meaningful >> in any sense beyond the visual-- but it seems rare that anyone wants >> to agree (or admit to) that because even free verse poets tend to >> publicly bow down before the unit of the line as a defense against >> charges of randomness, lack of art, etc... >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard Wed Nov 11 13:01:37 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:01:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: One might note here that one problem students often have reading, say, Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, to read lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather than reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts of sentences that people would actually say. Once students read sentences rather than lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > > > i think this is an argument *within the bounds of free verse, Chris, > rather > > than free verse vs. metrical verse (and Levine's citing of "Easter 1916" > > suggests that if there is a metrical component involved, it would be > stress > > metrics rather than syllable-accent metrics) ... > > I understand this is a discussion within the realm of free verse... > but in my experience (and I defer to the much greater experience on > this list), free verse poets tend to talk about the line as a > fundamental unit of the poem, that lineation really means something, > that the break aren't arbitrary, etc etc etc. > > But in my experience *reading* free verse, it seems that the line > break really doesn't mean that much that often, at least not in terms > of being an indicator how a poem is meant to be read. Some of the time > it feels arbitrary, sometimes there are obvious rhetorical effects... > but most of the time it appears to be a visual concern. And certainly > listening to poets read tends to confirm that opinion-- few seem to > read the poems as if the line breaks mean anything. > > I don't have a problem with any of them, but when a poet tries to have > his/her cake and eat it too, maintaining that the breaks have meaning > beyond the visual, but without any support in the metrics or the way > he/she reads the poem... that seems a bit like the poet just screwing > with the audience. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 13:06:56 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:06:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which means I probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but shouldn't there be room for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs radically from the melody of "I Got Rhythm," does that invalidate the melody? We're talking about one poet -- Philip Levine -- and while I can't speak for Levine, I can theorize about a hypothetical poet who's made certain decisions about line breaks which he is sure enough about that he'll commit them to publication, but who can still be curious enough about alternatives to try them out when he has the chance. Chris Lott wrote: > There's nothing wrong with it, but unless you move in the direction of > some kind of true visual poetry, doesn't it seem that the > effect/meaning of the visual component of breaking lines ala Levine > (and many others, I know) is so miniscule as to be nearly > non-existent? I mean, making all the lines approximately the same > length isn't making much of a visual statement and it comes at the > cost of readers having any idea how the composer of the poem plans for > the poem to be read. If poetry is written for the ear (and it doesn't > have to be, of course, but Levine does print his work and tirelessly > read it) then shouldn't the cues that are intended for the ear/reading > only be sacrificed in order to gain, well, something? > > Don't get me wrong... I like free verse poetry more than any other > form... except maybe the prose poem. But if Levine's line breaks mean > nothing for me as a reader/aurally and the visual effect that I am > seeing is all there is (meaning: it ain't much), then why not write it > as a prose poem? Or why not write it in a way that assumes the aural > reading *matters*? > > And that might be the crux of it-- maybe the aural aspect really just > doesn't matter. But if that's the case, Levine and others could do a > heck of a lot more visually than present a uniform block. > > c > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:41 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> Why is it so odd a concept that poetry is both aural and visual, and that >> each of these receives a different emphasis depending on whether one is >> dealing with the words on a page or the words spoken? And if Philip Levine >> has his own idiosyncratic relationship to his own words and likes to play >> those balances off each other, that doesn't make him crazy, nor does it mean >> everyone has to follow his example, any more than we all have to follow Bob >> Grumman's. >> >> Or...wait a second...do we? >> >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bob Grumman >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I wasn't saying this was Levine's intention but trying to find a >>>> rationale >>>> for not pausing at the end of each line of poetry in a reading. >>>> >>>> >>> I can buy the idea that the poet intends so many different potential >>> readings that the lineation is no longer intended to provide any >>> significant clue to the reading-- it even fits in with my >>> long-supposed idea that most poets nowadays don't write for reading >>> (aloud) at all and that line breaks are only occasionally meaningful >>> in any sense beyond the visual-- but it seems rare that anyone wants >>> to agree (or admit to) that because even free verse poets tend to >>> publicly bow down before the unit of the line as a defense against >>> charges of randomness, lack of art, etc... >>> >>> c >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 13:13:14 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:13:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4AFAFEBA.9010301@opus40.org> Creeley's been criticized for just the reverse of Levine -- stopping dead at the end of each line while reading aloud. Halvard Johnson wrote: > One might note here that one problem students often have reading, say, > Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, to read > lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather than > reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts of sentences > that people would actually say. Once students read sentences rather than > lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." > > Hal > > ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without > it.? > --Claude L?vi-Strauss > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Chris Lott > wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Robin Hamilton > > wrote: > > > > i think this is an argument *within the bounds of free verse, > Chris, rather > > than free verse vs. metrical verse (and Levine's citing of > "Easter 1916" > > suggests that if there is a metrical component involved, it > would be stress > > metrics rather than syllable-accent metrics) ... > > I understand this is a discussion within the realm of free verse... > but in my experience (and I defer to the much greater experience on > this list), free verse poets tend to talk about the line as a > fundamental unit of the poem, that lineation really means something, > that the break aren't arbitrary, etc etc etc. > > But in my experience *reading* free verse, it seems that the line > break really doesn't mean that much that often, at least not in terms > of being an indicator how a poem is meant to be read. Some of the time > it feels arbitrary, sometimes there are obvious rhetorical effects... > but most of the time it appears to be a visual concern. And certainly > listening to poets read tends to confirm that opinion-- few seem to > read the poems as if the line breaks mean anything. > > I don't have a problem with any of them, but when a poet tries to have > his/her cake and eat it too, maintaining that the breaks have meaning > beyond the visual, but without any support in the metrics or the way > he/she reads the poem... that seems a bit like the poet just screwing > with the audience. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard Wed Nov 11 13:21:21 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:21:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFAFEBA.9010301@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFAFEBA.9010301@opus40.org> Message-ID: He's been criticized by *some* for doing that, but not by me. The effect he achieved thereby, as I recall from some of his early readings, was to make each word and/or phrase seem produced under great stress, even agony sometimes. Quite remarkable, and probably what drew me to his early work (*For Love*, for starters), not to mention into the writing of poetry myself. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Creeley's been criticized for just the reverse of Levine -- stopping dead > at the end of each line while reading aloud. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> One might note here that one problem students often have reading, say, >> Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, to read >> lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather than >> reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts of sentences >> that people would actually say. Once students read sentences rather than >> lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." >> >> Hal >> >> ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without >> it.? >> --Claude L?vi-Strauss >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Chris Lott > chris at chrislott.org>> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Robin Hamilton >> > > wrote: >> > >> > i think this is an argument *within the bounds of free verse, >> Chris, rather >> > than free verse vs. metrical verse (and Levine's citing of >> "Easter 1916" >> > suggests that if there is a metrical component involved, it >> would be stress >> > metrics rather than syllable-accent metrics) ... >> >> I understand this is a discussion within the realm of free verse... >> but in my experience (and I defer to the much greater experience on >> this list), free verse poets tend to talk about the line as a >> fundamental unit of the poem, that lineation really means something, >> that the break aren't arbitrary, etc etc etc. >> >> But in my experience *reading* free verse, it seems that the line >> break really doesn't mean that much that often, at least not in terms >> of being an indicator how a poem is meant to be read. Some of the time >> it feels arbitrary, sometimes there are obvious rhetorical effects... >> but most of the time it appears to be a visual concern. And certainly >> listening to poets read tends to confirm that opinion-- few seem to >> read the poems as if the line breaks mean anything. >> >> I don't have a problem with any of them, but when a poet tries to have >> his/her cake and eat it too, maintaining that the breaks have meaning >> beyond the visual, but without any support in the metrics or the way >> he/she reads the poem... that seems a bit like the poet just screwing >> with the audience. >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Wed Nov 11 13:31:11 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:31:11 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:06 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which means I > probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but shouldn't there be room > for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs radically from the melody of > "I Got Rhythm," ?does that invalidate the melody? Yes there should be room. And as someone who has pretty much every recording Parker ever made and has memorized them all, of course it doesn't invalidate the melody. But Levine seems to be doing precisely the opposite-- creating uniform lines that provide little visual texture while sacrificing the intent of the reading that he himself demonstrates. Quite the opposite of Parker! If the reason for Levine's line breaks is visual (as it apparently is since he doesn't in any way account for them in his reading), then it's pretty bland. If he does intend his poems to be read and the line breaks to have some meaning, I'm not getting the point of being purposefully misleading. I think, all things considered, his breaks are actually pretty meaningless and his getting huffy about them is probably because admitting that would be distasteful. I'd be more satisfied with an answer of "it's an intuitive thing, I just like them there, and I try to make my lines relatively uniform visually" (which would be close to my answer except that I generally use breaks intuitively except for occasional deliberate examples... but I admit to that freely) than I am with what strikes me as, well, a BS answer (so far anyway). I'm not looking to string Levine up though :) c From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 13:51:27 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:51:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFB07AF.6030502@opus40.org> Opposite isn't always opposite -- in either case the artist is taking something fixed, and saying "No, it's not necessarily fixed." There are other reasons for lineation besides making a visual pattern on the page. There's the inner aural quality, the sounds we make to ourselves, and there's the foregrounding and backgrounding of words, and the suggestion of different relationships between words than the purely syntactical. And all of these choices can be second guessed by the poet as he/she reads. Chris Lott wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:06 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which means I >> probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but shouldn't there be room >> for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs radically from the melody of >> "I Got Rhythm," does that invalidate the melody? >> > > Yes there should be room. And as someone who has pretty much every > recording Parker ever made and has memorized them all, of course it > doesn't invalidate the melody. But Levine seems to be doing precisely > the opposite-- creating uniform lines that provide little visual > texture while sacrificing the intent of the reading that he himself > demonstrates. Quite the opposite of Parker! > > If the reason for Levine's line breaks is visual (as it apparently is > since he doesn't in any way account for them in his reading), then > it's pretty bland. If he does intend his poems to be read and the line > breaks to have some meaning, I'm not getting the point of being > purposefully misleading. I think, all things considered, his breaks > are actually pretty meaningless and his getting huffy about them is > probably because admitting that would be distasteful. I'd be more > satisfied with an answer of "it's an intuitive thing, I just like them > there, and I try to make my lines relatively uniform visually" (which > would be close to my answer except that I generally use breaks > intuitively except for occasional deliberate examples... but I admit > to that freely) than I am with what strikes me as, well, a BS answer > (so far anyway). > > I'm not looking to string Levine up though :) > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From skip Wed Nov 11 14:12:50 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The bases for lineation are Legion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <18A2F9D05F8349FFA28D746AF86772A4@win.louisiana.edu> I'd not support Levine's poetry. But if he is lax with what we think important, esp. lineation & melody, he's far from alone. Too much contemporary poetry seems (not just "sounds like") like a warm bath, one might contend when looking at such poets. Such poets "sprawl" in Olson's terminology. But it might be somewhat narrow to assume there are only two main reasons to lineate a poem: eye or ear. I could conceive of doing it by idea, delaying or completing idea's "nut" (or doing a thousand other things with idea like "idea-rhyme,' as people write about with Creeley.)Indeed, Eliot seems to do this often--and it need not be done to the exclusion to of the other two. (If Dickinson was writing in the last century this might have been a major consideration for her.) Or you could do it by any other mental concept either alone or with eye and/or ear. I.e.: eye alone, ear alone, both together, either or both in combination with any conceptual basis, or multiples of these, etc. AND the basis might be continually shifting, albeit slightly. (Different for different poets/poems/periods of writing?) In fact there seem to be so many possible factors that an intuitive artist might be negotiating among a number of these at any given instant. To be obedient to a given standard is fine, but to believe it is the only viable one (or only one of a viable few) might significantly limit one's view if not practice. Not that one sprawl. From chris Wed Nov 11 14:19:10 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:19:10 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB07AF.6030502@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB07AF.6030502@opus40.org> Message-ID: I feel a bit resistant to some of this conversation because we've so quickly left any examples of actual poems behind. I agree with Tad and Skip in principle, but how do you see it applying to the (an) actual poem? How are Levine's breaks contributing to-- or working in the manner of-- any of the theories being posed here? There must be volumes of books that considers the line and line breaks in these ways... any suggestions? I appreciate the discussion that's happened here. c From jbalizsprince Wed Nov 11 15:50:25 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911111250w4ce3a417g400c1b0c9fb57446@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Chris and Tad, both whom I rather agree with about Levine as well as line endings. Bear with me as I write out what I mean. Jazz lovers and performers understand well the freedom of inspired play---the expectation of instant changes with other musicians deftly done only after years of practice. That sometimes-inspiration-of-the-moment, born of genius and experience, is what The Best poets do. Hence, I can 'get' Tad's wish to allow for a poet's varied spoken readings of her/his own [published] lines. However, wouldn't the poet be able to vary her/his interpretations no matter how the lines ended? So Levine's leaving himself the freedom to variously interpret his lines is cool. The problem is that his readers are left with no clues as to how the poet might want his words heard/read. Hence, my fundamental agreeing with Chris about Philip Levine's choice to read aloud that which seems to readers at odds with the poems as written. So much previous-centuried poetry conformed to strict syllable and/or rhythm as well as rhyme forms, and these governed line endings [e.g., Old Greek, Old English, Middle English, Chinese, and Japanese]. We can conjecture the reasons for these rigid forms: 1) concision of thought ["distilled" beauty, wisdom, and surprise/recognition of figures], and 2) musicality. Both concision of thought and musicality enhanced the speakers' and hearers' memory of the words, which were spoken and/or sung well before they were committed to paper with brush or quill. The divide between prose and poetry likely turns most on concision and musicality. Yes, a prose piece can be concise and musical, and a poem can be rambling and unmusical....but we have until very recently held firmly to concision and musicality as characteristics of poetry and as distinct from prose. My feeling about most [though not all] of Philip Levine's poems is that they are written as prose with slightly shorter lines and slightly varied line lengths. If he sounds 'poetic' while reading his works aloud, as Robin has suggested, then he has, apparently, a gift for musicality [rhythm]---as is the case with many talented prose writers. Should he, or must he bottle his 'poems' into short, recognisable, somewhat regular-length lines in order for his poems to be poetry? Depends how far along the continuum of concision and the continuum of musicality you want poets to be. The poetry that most delights me is that which blows my mind with surprising-fresh figures revealed concisely and musically. Best, Judy 2009/11/11 Chris Lott > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:06 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which means I > > probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but shouldn't there be > room > > for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs radically from the melody > of > > "I Got Rhythm," does that invalidate the melody? > > Yes there should be room. And as someone who has pretty much every > recording Parker ever made and has memorized them all, of course it > doesn't invalidate the melody. But Levine seems to be doing precisely > the opposite-- creating uniform lines that provide little visual > texture while sacrificing the intent of the reading that he himself > demonstrates. Quite the opposite of Parker! > > If the reason for Levine's line breaks is visual (as it apparently is > since he doesn't in any way account for them in his reading), then > it's pretty bland. If he does intend his poems to be read and the line > breaks to have some meaning, I'm not getting the point of being > purposefully misleading. I think, all things considered, his breaks > are actually pretty meaningless and his getting huffy about them is > probably because admitting that would be distasteful. I'd be more > satisfied with an answer of "it's an intuitive thing, I just like them > there, and I try to make my lines relatively uniform visually" (which > would be close to my answer except that I generally use breaks > intuitively except for occasional deliberate examples... but I admit > to that freely) than I am with what strikes me as, well, a BS answer > (so far anyway). > > I'm not looking to string Levine up though :) > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 11 16:09:04 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:09:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CC312A5596FBBA-867C-5421@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Look on the page may not seem reason enough, but a number of poets I admire try to have regular blocky look to the poem, and the line has to fall in line to get that look sometimes. Jack Gilbert is one example. He has a notion about the poem being compact and squared off in the way that Romanesque sculpture was designed compactly so that if were one were dropped and rolled down the cathedral steps no arms would be broken off. I don't know if this is true or not...but it made for good explanation of his regularly shaped blocky layout. I'm on side that breaking lines is an idiosyncratic choice or in some cases mere arbitrary. I don't believe there is an objective (right way) to break a line. And further most good poems could be broken in countless other ways and not suffer for it so much that we'd call the alt-lineated versions bad poems. There is look mythologizing (sometimes to point of whole metaphysical systems) about 'the line' in contemporary poetry. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind There's nothing wrong with it, but unless you move in the direction of ome kind of true visual poetry, doesn't it seem that thewe ffect/meaning of the visual component of breaking lines ala Levine and many others, I know) is so miniscule as to be nearly on-existent? I mean, making all the lines approximately the same ength isn't making much of a visual statement and it comes at the ost of readers having any idea how the composer of the poem plans for he poem to be read. If poetry is written for the ear (and it doesn't ave to be, of course, but Levine does print his work and tirelessly ead it) then shouldn't the cues that are intended for the ear/reading nly be sacrificed in order to gain, well, something? Don't get me wrong... I like free verse poetry more than any other orm... except maybe the prose poem. But if Levine's line breaks mean othing for me as a reader/aurally and the visual effect that I am eeing is all there is (meaning: it ain't much), then why not write it s a prose poem? Or why not write it in a way that assumes the aural eading *matters*? And that might be the crux of it-- maybe the aural aspect really just oesn't matter. But if that's the case, Levine and others could do a eck of a lot more visually than present a uniform block. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Wed Nov 11 16:26:48 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:26:48 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <8CC312A5596FBBA-867C-5421@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <8CC312A5596FBBA-867C-5421@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:09 PM, wrote: > Look on the page may not seem reason enough, but a number of poets I admire > try to have regular blocky look to the poem, and the line > has to fall in line to get that look sometimes.?Jack Gilbert is one example. > He has a notion?about the poem being compact and squared off > in the way that Romanesque sculpture was?designed compactly?so that if were > one were?dropped and rolled down the cathedral steps > no arms would be broken off. I don't know if this is true or not...but it > made for good explanation of his regularly shaped blocky layout. I don't know why but that makes a lot more sense with Gilbert's poetry, though to my recollection he's actually *less* uniform (generally) than Levine! c From bobgrumman Wed Nov 11 18:01:42 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:01:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4 AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC>< 4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><8588D9F01E7043C0AF1F7ACBA4191A1A@Rob inLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > One might note here that one problem students often have reading, say, > Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, to read > lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather than > reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts of sentences > that people would actually say. Once students read sentences rather than > lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." > > Hal Right, once they mistake it for prose, they connect to it. No matter that the whole point of poetry and the other arts is to give us something that is not real life. Yet it may still be good for students to read poetry as though it were prose--at first; later, perhaps, they can relearn it as poetry. --Bob From bobgrumman Wed Nov 11 18:06:50 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:06:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which means > I probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but shouldn't there > be room for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs radically from > the melody of "I Got Rhythm," does that invalidate the melody? > > We're talking about one poet -- Philip Levine -- and while I can't > speak for Levine, I can theorize about a hypothetical poet who's made > certain decisions about line breaks which he is sure enough about that > he'll commit them to publication, but who can still be curious enough > about alternatives to try them out when he has the chance. I think I've said about the same thing. Here, I think, is another area in which robin sadly let us down. He needs to have attended /many/ readings in which Levine read the same poems from his oeuvre and determined if he always broke his lines at the same place. Or was each reading different? Or many of them different. But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote, as I suggested in another post to this thread. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Wed Nov 11 18:10:54 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:10:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Duh, I should have known that Bob G could tell me what the whole point of poetry and art is. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> One might note here that one problem students often have reading, say, >> Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, to read >> lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather than >> reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts of sentences >> that people would actually say. Once students read sentences rather than >> lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." >> >> Hal >> > Right, once they mistake it for prose, they connect to it. No matter that > the whole point of poetry and the other arts is to give us something that is > not real life. Yet it may still be good for students to read poetry as > though it were prose--at first; later, perhaps, they can relearn it as > poetry. > > --Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 11 18:17:29 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:17:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The bases for lineation are Legion In-Reply-To: <18A2F9D05F8349FFA28D746AF86772A4@win.louisiana.edu> References: <18A2F9D05F8349FFA28D746AF86772A4@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4AFB4609.30400@nut-n-but.net> Skip Fox wrote: > I'd not support Levine's poetry. But if he is lax with what we think > important, esp. lineation & melody, he's far from alone. Too much > contemporary poetry seems (not just "sounds like") like a warm bath, one > might contend when looking at such poets. Such poets "sprawl" in Olson's > terminology. > > But it might be somewhat narrow to assume there are only two main reasons to > lineate a poem: eye or ear. I could conceive of doing it by idea . . . Absolutely (especially if we add "image" to "idea"). To me, by far the most important virtue of lineation. E.g., Williams's using a line break to divide "wheelbarrow" into two powerful extra images that fit the context of the poem. The best at this way of using lineation of those poets I know was Cummings, inventor--as far as I've been able to find out--of the intra-syllabic line break. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Wed Nov 11 18:24:44 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:24:44 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <1984421C201344858B8C459EA0BB876C@RobinLaptopPC> << Here, I think, is another area in which robin sadly let us down. He needs to have attended many readings in which Levine read the same poems from his oeuvre and determined if he always broke his lines at the same place. Or was each reading different? Or many of them different. But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote, as I suggested in another post to this thread. --Bob Hey, c'mon Bob, I'm only human! (Well, almost.) And I did originally try to get to hear Levine at Aldeburgh three years ago, around the time this came up on the original thread, but he was a no-show, and his poems were read by I think Sharon Olds, which didn't count. But I plead guilty to not doing what I intended, which was to search out Levine reading on-line. Bob's point about needing to hear, or at least that it would be useful to have, Levine reading the same poem more than once is a valid one. But later -- I've just this minute discovered the current (god help us) entry on John Hall (he who later morphs into "Sam Hall" of Damn Your Eyes fame) in the Dictionary of National Biography, and intend to treat myself to a little harmless enjoyment by eviscerating it. Anything which includes the following statement is positively asking for it. Anyone manage to count the number of misapprehensions the following passage contains? I can identify three already: "The Memoirs of the right villainous Jack Hall, penn'd from his mouth some time before his death, published in 1708 and reaching its fourth edition by 1714, was actually no such thing, using the saleability of his name to top and tail a highly generalized parody of the conventions of the true-life crime genre." Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Wed Nov 11 18:35:32 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:35:32 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> << Duh, I should have known that Bob G could tell me what the whole point of poetry and art is. Hal >> I'm entirely with Bob on this one -- hearing students read blank verse as prose, completely ignoring the line-endings, is cringe-making. Stopping at the end of each line to inhale, as if you'd just climbed up the side of a large mountain, is certainly bad, but blank-verse-as-prose is much, much worse. I once had a blank verse poem (blank verse, I stress, not free verse, but your authentic iambic pent) printed in a magazine as prose. I was just a little ... upset. They wouldn't have done it to Wallace Stevens. Well, maybe they would -- there is no sounding the depths of human ignorance and folly. Robin From halvard Wed Nov 11 18:50:19 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:50:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> <32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: When you hear an acted performance of Shakespeare, you can hear where the blank verse line endings are? Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > << > Duh, I should have known that Bob G could tell me what the whole point of > poetry > and art is. > > Hal > >> >>> > I'm entirely with Bob on this one -- hearing students read blank verse as > prose, completely ignoring the line-endings, is cringe-making. Stopping at > the end of each line to inhale, as if you'd just climbed up the side of a > large mountain, is certainly bad, but blank-verse-as-prose is much, much > worse. > > I once had a blank verse poem (blank verse, I stress, not free verse, but > your authentic iambic pent) printed in a magazine as prose. I was just a > little ... upset. They wouldn't have done it to Wallace Stevens. Well, > maybe they would -- there is no sounding the depths of human ignorance and > folly. > > Robin > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 11 19:18:35 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:18:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2 FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net><32F15B42C1 DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4AFB545B.6050709@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > When you hear an acted performance of Shakespeare, you can hear where the > blank verse line endings are? > > Hal Only if the play is competently directed and acted--which, I suppose, may be possible in England. --Bob G. From jforjames Wed Nov 11 19:34:23 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:34:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org><4AFB07AF.6030502@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CC314703D6BF6C-867C-8B15@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> One recent title (short treatise really) on the line... Finally, no particular line is valuable except inasmuch as it performs a dramatic function in relationship to other lines in a particular poem: one kind of line ending becomes powerful because of its relationship to other kinds of line endings.?James Longenbach, The Art of the Poetic Line (Graywolf 2008) John Hollander said Milton?s enjambments ?annotate? his syntax. ?James Longenbach, The Art of the Poetic Line -- Of all poetic techniques, the line break would be fertile ground for some scientific/statistical study: Crank a few thousand poems (random / single author) through a program that would count and identify... Average number of syllables before l.b.? Average number of words before l.b.? What parts of speech are most often broken on? How often is natural phrase split v. left whole? How often endstopped v. enjambed? Etc. I don't know what such a study will tell us...but I look forward to hearing a statistically-mind scholar's conclusions. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind I feel a bit resistant to some of this conversation because we've so uickly left any examples of actual poems behind. I agree with Tad and kip in principle, but how do you see it applying to the (an) actual oem? How are Levine's breaks contributing to-- or working in the anner of-- any of the theories being posed here? There must be volumes of books that considers the line and line breaks n these ways... any suggestions? I appreciate the discussion that's happened here. c ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 11 19:36:06 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:36:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net><32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC31474177D8EC-867C-8B6D@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: Robin Hamilton Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind When you hear an acted performance of Shakespeare, you can hear where the blank verse line endings are? Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: << Duh, I should have known that Bob G could tell me what the whole point of poetry and art is. Hal I'm entirely with Bob on this one -- hearing students read blank verse as prose, completely ignoring the line-endings, is cringe-making. Stopping at the end of each line to inhale, as if you'd just climbed up the side of a large mountain, is certainly bad, but blank-verse-as-prose is much, much worse. I once had a blank verse poem (blank verse, I stress, not free verse, but your authentic iambic pent) printed in a magazine as prose. I was just a little ... upset. They wouldn't have done it to Wallace Stevens. Well, maybe they would -- there is no sounding the depths of human ignorance and folly. Robin _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Wed Nov 11 19:44:33 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:44:33 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net><32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: << When you hear an acted performance of Shakespeare, you can hear where the blank verse line endings are? Hal >> Maybe, maybe not, but I sure as hell can tell the difference between an actor trained to *take account of* the fact that Shakespeare is written in blank verse, not prose, and one who isn't. And I'd probably notice (and cringe) if somehow a syllable was lost. This doesn't matter in prose, it matters a lot in (blank) verse, *regardless of how much or how little attention you give to the ends of the lines. And good actors know these things, even if they don't necessarily have the terminology to discuss it. I was co-directing _Hamlet_ once, years ago, with final-year drama student actors, which meant they were virtually up to professional standards, when the kid playing Hamlet came to me with a worry about how to speak Hamlet's speech to Horatio: "Not a whit, we defy augury: there's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all: since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes?" He had no trouble at all with the blank verse, he had no trouble with the prose, but he just couldn't work out how to *speak those particular lines. We worked it out eventually (though I was reduced to scanning the passage and trying to figure out how it related stress-metrics, though that wasn't what I said to the actor. More, when I'd at last and painfully worked it out for myself, "Hit the stresses here, here, and here,") and he went away satisfied. For better or worse. Dunno what he learned, but I sure as hell learned something. I'd read the play before, more than once even, but I'd never before noticed that the rhythm of that passage fits neither the norm of the blank verse in the play nor of the prose. But then, I wasn't going to have to stand on stage and speak the lines before an audience, and he was. (Admittedly, he was a better than competent actor, though not the best I've worked with. Maybe the second or third best. Most aren't that good, but some are.) You can fudge on the page, you can fudge when reading silently, you can even fudge when giving a poetry reading or standing at the lectern, but you sure as hell can't fudge on the boards. The stage can be a very unforgiving platform on occasion. Robin "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy." ***************************** I'm entirely with Bob on this one -- hearing students read blank verse as prose, completely ignoring the line-endings, is cringe-making. Stopping at the end of each line to inhale, as if you'd just climbed up the side of a large mountain, is certainly bad, but blank-verse-as-prose is much, much worse. I once had a blank verse poem (blank verse, I stress, not free verse, but your authentic iambic pent) printed in a magazine as prose. I was just a little ... upset. They wouldn't have done it to Wallace Stevens. Well, maybe they would -- there is no sounding the depths of human ignorance and folly. Robin From jforjames Wed Nov 11 19:46:40 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:46:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <8CC31474177D8EC-867C-8B6D@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net><32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC31474177D8EC-867C-8B6D@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC3148BB89BC6C-867C-8E0C@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> That email got away from me... I was going to add that I saw this quote in a couple of the L?vi-Strauss obits, and I immediately thought of Robinson Jeffers. A number of Jeffers' poems are base on a similar theme. Of couse the philosophical side of me wants to know if there's such a thing as 'world' without humankind? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: halvard at gmail.com; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 7:36 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: Robin Hamilton Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind When you hear an acted performance of Shakespeare, you can hear where the blank verse line endings are? Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Wed Nov 11 19:50:00 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:50:00 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <8CC31474177D8EC-867C-8B6D@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net><32F15B42C1DF466DB9E3DB9CC2E25D55@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC31474177D8EC-867C-8B6D@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <25E95F1FB97A4190B1918E8047A47C39@RobinLaptopPC> ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss "The human race is one that I'll not win." -- final line from a poem in iambic pentameter. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 19:56:53 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:56:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> No one has a duty to indicate anything in his books. Bob Grumman wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: >> My disagreement at this point is going to become inchoate, which >> means I probably don't belong in this discussion at all, but >> shouldn't there be room for interpretation? If Charlie Parker departs >> radically from the melody of "I Got Rhythm," does that invalidate >> the melody? >> >> We're talking about one poet -- Philip Levine -- and while I can't >> speak for Levine, I can theorize about a hypothetical poet who's made >> certain decisions about line breaks which he is sure enough about >> that he'll commit them to publication, but who can still be curious >> enough about alternatives to try them out when he has the chance. > I think I've said about the same thing. Here, I think, is another > area in which robin sadly let us down. He needs to have attended > /many/ readings in which Levine read the same poems from his oeuvre > and determined if he always broke his lines at the same place. Or was > each reading different? Or many of them different. But if he > considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to indicate > that in his books--with some kind of footnote, as I suggested in > another post to this thread. > > --Bob > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 19:57:44 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:57:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFB4256.8040200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFB5D88.2070106@opus40.org> Hal -- if I'd only known you needed the information, I could have told you. For a price, of course. Halvard Johnson wrote: > Duh, I should have known that Bob G could tell me what the whole point > of poetry > and art is. > > Hal > > ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without > it.? > --Claude L?vi-Strauss > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > One might note here that one problem students often have > reading, say, > Shakespeare is that they tend, especially when reading aloud, > to read > lines as though the endings indicate some sort of pause rather > than > reading them as lines to be spoken as though they were parts > of sentences > that people would actually say. Once students read sentences > rather than > lines in Shakespeare they start to "get it." > > Hal > > Right, once they mistake it for prose, they connect to it. No > matter that the whole point of poetry and the other arts is to > give us something that is not real life. Yet it may still be good > for students to read poetry as though it were prose--at first; > later, perhaps, they can relearn it as poetry. > > --Bob > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd Wed Nov 11 20:41:49 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:41:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <26077523-0856-43DD-BE22-EC6A20CEB57D@ripon.edu> On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote ----------------------- It's not bad enough that we get grief from our family and blank stares from people at parties when they learn we write poetry? It's not enough that we have to endure people on airplanes who say, after noticing we're reading the latest Phil Levine book, "oh, I always hated poetry in school"? Now we also have *duties*? Sheesh. I'm going into another line of work. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 11 21:10:41 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:10:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <26077523-0856-43DD-BE22-EC6A20CEB57D@ripon.edu> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> <26077523-0856-43DD-BE22-EC6A20CEB57D@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AFB6EA1.5070109@opus40.org> f u cn rd ths u cn gt a gd jb. David Graham wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to >> indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote > ----------------------- > > It's not bad enough that we get grief from our family and blank stares > from people at parties when they learn we write poetry? It's not > enough that we have to endure people on airplanes who say, after > noticing we're reading the latest Phil Levine book, "oh, I always > hated poetry in school"? > > Now we also have *duties*? > > Sheesh. I'm going into another line of work. . . . > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman Thu Nov 12 06:42:59 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:42:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com> <4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org><4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> <4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > No one has a duty to indicate anything in his books. True, unless he cares about communication, which seems to me the main function of books, although I'm sure Halvard can set me straight on that. From bobgrumman Thu Nov 12 06:53:31 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:53:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <26077523-0856-43DD-BE22-EC6A20CEB57D@ripon.edu> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911092326m41609acas10d333dcd9a72c77@mail.gmail.com><4AF94FD0.9000503@nut-n-but.net> <2FFB8308C56443D2B9E5B6501A455515@RobinLaptopPC><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> <26077523-0856-43DD-BE22-EC6A20CEB57D@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AFBF73B.7090606@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to >> indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote > ----------------------- > > It's not bad enough that we get grief from our family and blank stares > from people at parties when they learn we write poetry? It's not > enough that we have to endure people on airplanes who say, after > noticing we're reading the latest Phil Levine book, "oh, I always > hated poetry in school"? > > Now we also have *duties*? > > Sheesh. I'm going into another line of work. . . . You guys certainly have a limited definition of "duty." One of mine is "function arising from your choice of activity." Or what you owe a craft, or owe people you're doing something for, or owe yourself if you want some sort of sense of satisfaction anything goes won't give you. I would certainly add that poets have a duty to himself to have fun making his poems. I would add, too, that all your duties ideally should be ones you've chosen to try to fulfill, not ones others have forced on you. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 Thu Nov 12 07:53:02 2009 From: opus40-01 (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:53:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind Message-ID: <380-220091141212532884@M2W126.mail2web.com> If your duties are the ones you've chosen to fulfill, then an outsider -- even Bob Grumman -- should not be able to fault you for not choosing the duty of explaining your philosophy of lineation. Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:53:31 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind David Graham wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> But if he considers himself a jazz lineator, I feel he has a duty to >> indicate that in his books--with some kind of footnote > ----------------------- > > It's not bad enough that we get grief from our family and blank stares > from people at parties when they learn we write poetry? It's not > enough that we have to endure people on airplanes who say, after > noticing we're reading the latest Phil Levine book, "oh, I always > hated poetry in school"? > > Now we also have *duties*? > > Sheesh. I'm going into another line of work. . . . You guys certainly have a limited definition of "duty." One of mine is "function arising from your choice of activity." Or what you owe a craft, or owe people you're doing something for, or owe yourself if you want some sort of sense of satisfaction anything goes won't give you. I would certainly add that poets have a duty to himself to have fun making his poems. I would add, too, that all your duties ideally should be ones you've chosen to try to fulfill, not ones others have forced on you. --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From bobgrumman Thu Nov 12 08:45:06 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:45:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <380-220091141212532884@M2W126.mail2web.com> References: <380-220091141212532884@M2W126.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <4AFC1162.7060809@nut-n-but.net> opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote: > If your duties are the ones you've chosen to fulfill, then an outsider -- > even Bob Grumman -- should not be able to fault you for not choosing the > duty of explaining your philosophy of lineation. If you choose to publish poetry, you are implicitly choosing to communicate. One of the duties of communication is clarity--which is something an outsider can appropriately remind you of. And that's it for me on duty. From halvard Thu Nov 12 09:55:18 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:55:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close Encounters of the Poetic Kind In-Reply-To: <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC> <4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> <4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Sure will, Bob. Communication is one of many possible functions of books. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: > >> No one has a duty to indicate anything in his books. >> > > True, unless he cares about communication, which seems to me the main > function of books, although I'm sure Halvard can set me straight on that. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 12 10:07:46 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:07:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the swine vaccine Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911120707x35da2530v2e978dc3ad9656aa@mail.gmail.com> from another list, I watched it almost till the end, take care and no vaccines... http://www.disinfo.com/2009/11/spanish-doctor-reveals-important-information-about-swine-flu/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 12 10:14:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:14:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor's Seduction, Stories of Love and Art Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911120714pe4ff02dq6dd68b306e8c84ce@mail.gmail.com> Friends and neighbors! Here's news of Lynda's upcoming book! Please pass it along. *Spuyten Duyvil Announces the pre-publication Sale of Lynda Schor's Seduction, Stories of Love and Art a new and rare collection of tales of extraordinary madness.* Purchase a pre-publication copy and support Spuyten Duyvil's endeavors to bring extraordinary innovative literature and poetry to the reading public. Pre-publication copies are $16 + $2.50 postage and handling per copy. Please make checks out to: TNT Printworks Send order to: TNT Printworks 42 St. Johns Pl. Gdn Apt. Brooklyn, N.Y. 11217 Deadline: December 31 Books should arrive by February 15, 2010 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Thu Nov 12 10:45:25 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:45:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the swine vaccine In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911120707x35da2530v2e978dc3ad9656aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not poetry, I realize, but one might also take a look at the information being put out by the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization, if one wants a fuller account of the issue. http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/en/ http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1FLU/ Snopes.com also has a helpful page sorting out some of the rumors and conspiracy theories. I didn't find any reference there to Teresa Forcades, the Spanish nun. But I expect she may show up at some point. http://www.snopes.com/medical/swineflu/info.asp On 11/12/09 9:07 AM, "Anny Ballardini" wrote: > from another list, I watched it almost till the end, take care and no > vaccines... > http://www.disinfo.com/2009/11/spanish-doctor-reveals-important-information-ab > out-swine-flu/ > -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 12 11:35:47 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:35:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorianne Laux Message-ID: <8CC31CD52478847-25B4-11113@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> http://media.www.redandblack.com/media/storage/paper871/news/2009/11/12/OutAbout/Poet-Dorianne.Laux.Inspired.By.The.Outside.World-3829534.shtml Dorianne Laux inspired by the outside world KATHLEEN DAILEY Issue date: 11/12/09 Section: Out & About Many consider poetry to be an art of the past, but there are many successful modern poets who continue to influence our world. Dorianne Laux is one such poet. She will host a poetry reading in the Classic City from her collection of published poems, including works from her latest book "Facts about the Moon" and several new poems from her upcoming book "The Book of Men." Laux officially began her career as a published poet in 1982 when one of her poems was published in the San Diego Poets Press, but she has been writing poetry since her childhood. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Thu Nov 12 12:13:43 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:13:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorianne Laux In-Reply-To: <8CC31CD52478847-25B4-11113@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC31CD52478847-25B4-11113@webmail-d036.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0911120913n3dbc53c8td90ff6d9d9894859@mail.gmail.com> She's reading with a close friend of mine, Heather Matesich Cousins, whose book, *somethign in the Potato Room*, won the Kore Press First Book Prize. Info on *Something in the Potato Room* is available here: http://www.korepress.org/bios/Heathercousins.htm I'm not sure why the Red & Black doesn't mention her. Best, Jeff Newberry On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:35 AM, wrote: > > http://media.www.redandblack.com/media/storage/paper871/news/2009/11/12/OutAbout/Poet-Dorianne.Laux.Inspired.By.The.Outside.World-3829534.shtml > Dorianne Laux inspired by the outside world > KATHLEEN DAILEY > Issue date: 11/12/09 Section: Out & About > > Many consider poetry to be an art of the past, but there are many > successful modern poets who continue to influence our world. Dorianne Laux > is one such poet. She will host a poetry reading in the Classic City from > her collection of published poems, including works from her latest book > "Facts about the Moon" and several new poems from her upcoming book "The > Book of Men." > > Laux officially began her career as a published poet in 1982 when one of > her poems was published in the San Diego Poets Press, but she has been > writing poetry since her childhood. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 12 12:32:32 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:32:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba Message-ID: My Strange Amoeba Notwithstanding its ability to reproduce by simply separating part of itself from itself and sending it off to pre-school, it wasn't all that different from other simple life forms, say clarinetists or performers on the oud. It's not a question of bricolage or muscle thumb, but rather watching where one falls. Nervous improvisations in adjacent precincts. The constant lap of water on the shore. Aromatherapy, one option we'd given no thought to . . . until yesterday, that is. Playing near the edges of one's world, one finds, even there, mandatory vaccinations. Relatively fixed, in this most neurotic of worlds, despite our most fraudulent endeavors, we await our ends with just precisely the right amount of equanimity. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 12 12:58:11 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:58:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the line et al In-Reply-To: References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net><4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Who has read this book? I bought it and then promptly lost track of it among my piles of unread materia literaria. Something about the line discussion made me think of it, but it may not be pertinent... http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=15381 The Scissors of Meter concerns itself with the ways we read poetry. In it, Donald Wesling elaborates his influential theory of grammetrics, which argues that syntax and meter, like a pair of scissors, work together to separate lines of poetry into distinct units of meaning. The first part of the book provides a critique of modern theories of meter and poetic form, which the author believes are limited by errors of logical typing, false analogy with other languages or other arts like music, and ethical assumptions, as well as an inability to be interpretive. Subsequent chapters present the theory of grammetrics and demonstrate its usefulness by applying it to fourteen diverse poems. Wesling demonstrates that the reintroduction of metrics into the humanities allows for grammetrical readings of a variety of poetic styles, such as traditional verse, free verse, and prose poems, from diverse historical eras. Donald Wesling is Professor of English, University of California, San Diego. A randomly googled review here.. http://www.arsversificandi.net/backissues/vol1/reviews/odonnell.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 12 13:40:24 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> I always enjoy Hal's sonnets. Halvard Johnson wrote: > My Strange Amoeba > > Notwithstanding its ability to reproduce by simply > separating part of itself from itself and sending it off > to pre-school, it wasn't all that different from other > simple life forms, say clarinetists or performers on > > the oud. It's not a question of bricolage or muscle > thumb, but rather watching where one falls. Nervous > improvisations in adjacent precincts. The constant > lap of water on the shore. Aromatherapy, one > > option we'd given no thought to . . . until yesterday, > that is. Playing near the edges of one's world, one > finds, even there, mandatory vaccinations. Relatively > fixed, in this most neurotic of worlds, despite our > > most fraudulent endeavors, we await our ends with > just precisely the right amount of equanimity. > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 12 13:41:28 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:41:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the line et al In-Reply-To: <8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906@nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net><4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> <8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> A term like grammetrics was invented by someone other than Bob Grumman? jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Who has read this book? I bought it and then promptly lost track of > it among my piles of unread materia literaria. > Something about the line discussion made me think of it, but it may > not be pertinent... > > http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=15381 > The Scissors of Meter concerns itself with the ways we read poetry. In > it, Donald Wesling elaborates his influential theory of grammetrics, > which argues that syntax and meter, like a pair of scissors, work > together to separate lines of poetry into distinct units of meaning. > > The first part of the book provides a critique of modern theories of > meter and poetic form, which the author believes are limited by errors > of logical typing, false analogy with other languages or other arts > like music, and ethical assumptions, as well as an inability to be > interpretive. > > Subsequent chapters present the theory of grammetrics and demonstrate > its usefulness by applying it to fourteen diverse poems. Wesling > demonstrates that the reintroduction of metrics into the humanities > allows for grammetrical readings of a variety of poetic styles, such > as traditional verse, free verse, and prose poems, from diverse > historical eras. > > Donald Wesling is Professor of English, University of California, San > Diego. > > A randomly googled review here.. > http://www.arsversificandi.net/backissues/vol1/reviews/odonnell.html > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince Thu Nov 12 15:19:53 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:19:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the line et al In-Reply-To: <4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com> <4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org> <4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net> <4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> <8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911121219l7eef40cdu4b2910ae1fff93b1@mail.gmail.com> ;-) hoo-ha, Mole! Judy Grammax [grammar + syntax, pared/paired] ^ ^ u 2009/11/12 TheOldMole > A term like grammetrics was invented by someone other than Bob Grumman? > > jforjames at aol.com wrote: > >> Who has read this book? I bought it and then promptly lost track of it >> among my piles of unread materia literaria. >> Something about the line discussion made me think of it, but it may not be >> pertinent... >> http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=15381 >> The Scissors of Meter concerns itself with the ways we read poetry. In it, >> Donald Wesling elaborates his influential theory of grammetrics, which >> argues that syntax and meter, like a pair of scissors, work together to >> separate lines of poetry into distinct units of meaning. >> The first part of the book provides a critique of modern theories of >> meter and poetic form, which the author believes are limited by errors of >> logical typing, false analogy with other languages or other arts like music, >> and ethical assumptions, as well as an inability to be interpretive. >> Subsequent chapters present the theory of grammetrics and demonstrate its >> usefulness by applying it to fourteen diverse poems. Wesling demonstrates >> that the reintroduction of metrics into the humanities allows for >> grammetrical readings of a variety of poetic styles, such as traditional >> verse, free verse, and prose poems, from diverse historical eras. >> Donald Wesling is Professor of English, University of California, San >> Diego. >> >> A randomly googled review here.. >> http://www.arsversificandi.net/backissues/vol1/reviews/odonnell.html >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 12 18:02:57 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:02:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba In-Reply-To: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> References: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> Message-ID: That's a big plus for me, Tad. Thanks. Hal ?The world began without the human race and will certainly end without it.? --Claude L?vi-Strauss Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > I always enjoy Hal's sonnets. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> My Strange Amoeba >> >> Notwithstanding its ability to reproduce by simply >> separating part of itself from itself and sending it off >> to pre-school, it wasn't all that different from other >> simple life forms, say clarinetists or performers on >> >> the oud. It's not a question of bricolage or muscle >> thumb, but rather watching where one falls. Nervous >> improvisations in adjacent precincts. The constant >> lap of water on the shore. Aromatherapy, one >> >> option we'd given no thought to . . . until yesterday, >> that is. Playing near the edges of one's world, one >> finds, even there, mandatory vaccinations. Relatively >> fixed, in this most neurotic of worlds, despite our >> >> most fraudulent endeavors, we await our ends with >> just precisely the right amount of equanimity. >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 12 19:49:00 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:49:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba In-Reply-To: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> References: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFCACFC.2050203@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > I always enjoy Hal's sonnets. But, as this one proves, his forte is the haiku. --Bob From bobgrumman Thu Nov 12 19:58:03 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:58:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the line et al In-Reply-To: <4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906 @nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net><4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org> <4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net> <8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4AFCAF1B.4030801@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > A term like grammetrics was invented by someone other than Bob Grumman? I might have been surprised at that myself, but recently I came across an even clumsier term someone other than I invented: "metaphor." Seems like there may be dozens, even hundreds, of wacked-out neologizers in the field. --Bob From jforjames Thu Nov 12 20:20:48 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:20:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba In-Reply-To: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> References: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CC3216A9BFC7D6-3810-1BAF2@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> I like this one too. It reminds of the work of some of those Eastern European poets, particularly before the fall of The Wall, who would wrte about several things at once in q poem, often as cover for a subtext that was pointedly socio-political and thus off limits to write about overtly. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Thu, Nov 12, 2009 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Strange Amoeba I always enjoy Hal's sonnets. Halvard Johnson wrote: > My Strange Amoeba > > Notwithstanding its ability to reproduce by simply > separating part of itself from itself and sending it off > to pre-school, it wasn't all that different from other > simple life forms, say clarinetists or performers on > > the oud. It's not a question of bricolage or muscle > thumb, but rather watching where one falls. Nervous > improvisations in adjacent precincts. The constant > lap of water on the shore. Aromatherapy, one > > option we'd given no thought to . . . until yesterday, > that is. Playing near the edges of one's world, one > finds, even there, mandatory vaccinations. Relatively > fixed, in this most neurotic of worlds, despite our > > most fraudulent endeavors, we await our ends with > just precisely the right amount of equanimity. > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Nov 14 10:29:52 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:29:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry on Lineation In-Reply-To: <4AFCACFC.2050203@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AFC5698.20404@opus40.org> <4AFCACFC.2050203@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFECCF0.4030306@nut-n-but.net> Geocities recently deleted my old blog so I have a new one at http://poeticks.com The entry for yesterday has a sonnet of mine about my continuing persona, Poem. I use it to discuss various functions of the line-break. --Bob From anny.ballardini Sat Nov 14 17:00:43 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:00:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million for writing this book Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/15book.html?_r=1&hp none less by Sarah Palin not Bob Gruman, as we all thought. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Nov 14 20:24:53 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:24:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My New Blog In-Reply-To: <4AFCAF1B.4030801@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC2FBA9365BA07-F90-51B1@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com><038982836FBD46EDBA695D27037AC6EB@RobinLaptopPC><4AFA1573.20906 @nut-n-but.net><4AFAF746.4070405@opus40.org><4AFAFD40.9050406@opus40.org> <4AFB438A.4050303@nut-n-but.net><4AFB5D55.600@opus40.org><4AFBF4C3.10106@nut-n-but.net><8CC31D8D50AA906-74A0-5C17@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com><4AFC56D8.8050102@opus40.org> <4AFCAF1B.4030801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AFF5865.80604@nut-n-but.net> Geocities recently dismantled my blog. I had it backed-up but it is no longer on the Internet. No big deal--hardly anyone ever visited it. And now I have another blog. It's at http://poeticks.com. I call it to your attention because yesterday I did an entry on lineation that features a new sonnet of mine. --Bob From bobgrumman Sun Nov 15 06:47:47 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:47:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/15book.html?_r=1&hp > > > none less by Sarah Palin not Bob Gruman, > as we all thought. Actually, I'm writing it for her--but only for three million. --Bob GruMMan From anny.ballardini Sun Nov 15 07:51:56 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:51:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911150451qd102c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Bob! In this unpredictable world you are a certainty. Thank you for this. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/15book.html?_r=1&hp < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/15book.html?_r=1&hp> >> >> >> none less by Sarah Palin not Bob Gruman, >> as we all thought. >> > Actually, I'm writing it for her--but only for three million. > > --Bob GruMMan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Sun Nov 15 12:33:03 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:33:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lark Ascending, recordings online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> ----Original Message----- From: Nancyrbogen at cs.com To: Nancyrbogen at cs.com Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 7:47 am Dear Friends, As you may know, I was the head of , a small NYC-based performance group, which gave 30+ programs over the course of its 11-year existence. The Lark has ceased to exist, and one of these days, its archive will be housed in the Music Library of the University of North Texas. In advance of this, I have decided to offer selected Lark readings on the website of the Twickenham Press as free downloads to anyone who would like to have them. Please help yourself and pass the word along, most especially to students! Here is a list of what you will find there: The Great Debate in Hell (Books I and II of Paradise Lost) and the complete Samson Agonistes, both with full casts of professional actors coached by me, plus "Lycidas," the "Nativity Ode," and "l'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso"; 6 women poets of Shakespeare's time; Whitman's "When Lilacs Last in the Door-yard Bloom'd"; Canto IV of Childe Harold's Pilgrimage; and TS Eliot's "Portrait of a Lady." BTW, these make wonderful Xmas gifts. Just download the file of a work or files of works you want onto your Desktop, copy the file or files onto a dvd or cd, put the disk or disks in a case and affix Xmas gift labels, and you'll have something that will be a joy and blessing forever. You can listen and/or acquire as many files as you want. Begin by going to: http://www.twickenhampress.com and clicking on the icon labeled: Literary Downloads To listen: click on the mp3 icons under Audio Previews in the left column under the logo. To download an mp3 file that you want onto a pc, you should have IE version 7. Go to the bottom of an entry in the center column (just above the solid line). Right-click on the mp3 icon. This will bring up a menu, from which you should choose . Indicate a location like your Desktop. Once the mp3 icon is on your Desktop or wherever you have designated it to be, just drag it onto the Windows Media Player icon or another such program to play whenever you wish. To burn the mp3 file onto a cd, open Nero or Roxio or whatever program you use and drag the mp3 icon into it, load a disk into your tray, hit copy etc. etc. To download it onto a mac, you should have Firefox or Safari and pretty much follow the same procedure. If you have any problems, write or call me. Enjoy, Nancy Bogen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Sun Nov 15 14:32:01 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:32:01 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Listmember's Publication In-Reply-To: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Judy Prince has just been published in The Nervous Breakdown: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ Robin Hamilton From uche Sun Nov 15 14:37:50 2009 From: uche (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:37:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Nervous Breakdown now has a poetry section Message-ID: I've long been a contributor to an arts and culture site called The Nervous Breakdown. The site has been growing at a pridigious rate, and we recently underwent a major makeover, in which we introduced additional sections, including a section for poetry, of which I am one of the editors. http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/category/poetry/ We'll be publishing new material weekly. This week Buddy Wakefield is the featured poet, and our very own Judy Prince contributed her poem "Werner von Braun as a St. Kildan Bird". http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/jprince/2009/11/werner-von-braun-as-a-st-kildan-bird/ -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sun Nov 15 17:14:14 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:14:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Archie loves Robert Message-ID: http://www.loc.gov/poetry/archiecomic.html "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org From jforjames Sun Nov 15 19:21:56 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:21:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Message-ID: <8CC3469F0B9B330-3A78-A18@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf/2009/11/nonfiction_review_lit.html "Lit" begins with Karr at late adolescence, meandering in and out of college, teaching writing at a group home for mentally disabled women and studying poetry with Etheridge Knight, who urges her to connect with her authentic experience in her poetry. But the heart of "Lit" concerns her marriage to poet Michael Milburn (thinly disguised as Warren Whitbread, the last name connoting his wealthy, wasp family), who she meets at graduate school. The marriage takes a beating from her alcoholism and his remoteness, but together they produce a son, Dev, who is her reason for staying alive during her darkest hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Sun Nov 15 19:26:17 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:26:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keith Waldrop profile Message-ID: <8CC346A8BE155FA-3A78-AEA@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.projo.com/news/content/artsun-Waldrop_11-15-09_6RG7VKU_v42.1b88abb.html The 76-year-old professor?s latest book, ?Transcendental Studies: A Trilogy,? is one of five finalists for this year?s National Book Award for poetry. It includes material that is 20 years old, some of it published previously in France. Waldrop shrugs. ?I don?t always have an idea of what I?m doing,? he says. ?I put things down and I often have no idea what it will be a part of. At some point I say, well, I have this and I have that.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Sun Nov 15 21:26:24 2009 From: GrahamD (David Graham) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:26:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the blurb Message-ID: Do you ever buy a book just based on a blurb? In a used bookstore earlier today I found these words on the back of *The Ecstasy of Capitulation," a book of poems by Daniel Borzutsky, a poet previously unknown to me: "After I first read Daniel Borzutzky?s poems in magazines, I became a hellhound on his trail, pursuing him over the oceans (he was in Turkey at the time) until I ran him to earth and shook more poems out of him. I wanted my students to read those poems and to write like Borzutzky, yeah, but, more importantly, to think like him. There?s a divine foolishness to these poems, a knuckleheaded clarity that allows the poet to ask ?Are Nudists Nuts? (the question of our time, to my way of thinking) and to say ?We approve of intersections but are opposed to streets in general? and ?Out with mayors, in with majordomos? and ?We have too many potholes. They should be filled with violets, or ideas.? The title of this book not only describes it but recommends it?far too many poetry books today are about the capitulation of ecstasy. I love these poems. Daniel Borzutzky for president.? --David Kirby I bought the book just to have that blurb in my possession. Of course, the poems can't possibly live up to it, but I suspect I'll like at least some of them enough to justify the three dollars I forked over. David Kirby for president. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb Sun Nov 15 21:33:09 2009 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:33:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the blurb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC347C4553AFE0-1A3C-7A16@webmail-m100.sysops.aol.com> Now THAT is a blurb. I was stunned over the lovely, undeserving one David Huddle kindly gave me for my chapbook. . . But, I would have bought Daniel Borzutzky too! Millicent Presale for my book Woman on a Shaky Bridge opens Oct. 20th. Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the blurb Do you ever buy a book just based on a blurb? In a used bookstore earlier today I found these words on the back of *The Ecstasy of Capitulation," a book of poems by Daniel Borzutsky, a poet previously unknown to me: "After I first read Daniel Borzutzky?s poems in magazines, I became a hellhound on his trail, pursuing him over the oceans (he was in Turkey at the time) until I ran him to earth and shook more poems out of him. I wanted my students to read those poems and to write like Borzutzky, yeah, but, more importantly, to think like him. There?s a divine foolishness to these poems, a knuckleheaded clarity that allows the poet to ask ?Are Nudists Nuts? (the question of our time, to my way of thinking) and to say ?We approve of intersections but are opposed to streets in general? and ?Out with mayors, in with majordomos? and ?We have too many potholes. They should be filled with violets, or ideas.? The title of this book not only describes it but recommends it?far too many poetry books today are about the capitulation of ecstasy. I love these poems. Daniel Borzutzky for president.? --David Kirby I bought the book just to have that blurb in my possession. Of course, the poems can't possibly live up to it, but I suspect I'll like at least some of them enough to justify the three dollars I forked over. David Kirby for president. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Sun Nov 15 21:47:50 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:47:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the blurb Message-ID: For three bucks I might bite. More than that I'd have to read some of the poems at least. Which reminds me (guiltily) of the blurb I have promised and not delivered. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 16 01:04:46 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:04:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keith Waldrop profile In-Reply-To: <8CC346A8BE155FA-3A78-AEA@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC346A8BE155FA-3A78-AEA@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911152204n53b7d538wde75daa0c21878e2@mail.gmail.com> I liked him a lot, especially for the words James quoted, and then underneath goes the comment by an unidentified *singer 1959*: like he said( i don,t kow what i,m doing sometimes( so make him a professor at brown!! I am tempted to report it as Abuse. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:26 AM, wrote: > > http://www.projo.com/news/content/artsun-Waldrop_11-15-09_6RG7VKU_v42.1b88abb.html > The 76-year-old professor?s latest book, ?Transcendental Studies: A > Trilogy,? is one of five finalists for this year?s National Book Award for > poetry. > It includes material that is 20 years old, some of it published previously > in France. > > Waldrop shrugs. > > ?I don?t always have an idea of what I?m doing,? he says. ?I put things > down and I often have no idea what it will be a part of. At some point I > say, well, I have this and I have that.? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Mon Nov 16 13:01:54 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:01:54 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Listmember's Publication In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think I read this poem here at some point in the not-too-distant past. Excellent! c On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Judy Prince has just been published in The Nervous Breakdown: > > ? ? ? http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > Robin Hamilton > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris Mon Nov 16 16:18:45 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:18:45 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911150451qd102c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911150451qd102c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's amazing anyone would pay $1 for that book. This kind of strange paradox-- in which a talentless or stupid or horribly venal or massively under-qualified person becomes famous despite those very traits being so obvious-- must pop up a lot in places where more people go on to real fame. Doesn't happen much with people from Alaska, so it's all very surreal, disturbing and mystifying. c From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 16 17:14:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:14:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911150451qd102c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com> I agree with every word you wrote. It is depressing. And it is our daily life. Once it was the life of the fittest, now it is the life of the what? There are a lot of interests that play behind the shoulders of the lady, she is a puppet in the hands of some strong manipulators, and while I am typing this, I am wondering if they are Alaskan at all. Poor my States. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > It's amazing anyone would pay $1 for that book. This kind of strange > paradox-- in which a talentless or stupid or horribly venal or > massively under-qualified person becomes famous despite those very > traits being so obvious-- must pop up a lot in places where more > people go on to real fame. Doesn't happen much with people from > Alaska, so it's all very surreal, disturbing and mystifying. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Mon Nov 16 17:52:34 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:52:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911150451qd102c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911161452o5fa6872fi648becafe9e21729@mail.gmail.com> I think I'm stating the obvious when I say that if Palin were not an immensely attractive female, she wouldn't have got McCain's [and other politicos before him] nod and a meaningless vetting. Another obvious statement: Palin knows, as do all females, that attractiveness can garner power. One more: She will find out, and she may already have figured it out, that as she ages her power and [seemingly political] popularity will diminish. Thoroughly Democrat, I acknowledge that some have major deficiencies, but I can recall few national Republicans who have drawn my respect in 40 years. Republicans' maneuvering Palin forward is, I feel, equal to their transparent despising of voters when they played the race card during Dukakis' run. Plus ca change.... Best, Judy 2009/11/16 Chris Lott > It's amazing anyone would pay $1 for that book. This kind of strange > paradox-- in which a talentless or stupid or horribly venal or > massively under-qualified person becomes famous despite those very > traits being so obvious-- must pop up a lot in places where more > people go on to real fame. Doesn't happen much with people from > Alaska, so it's all very surreal, disturbing and mystifying. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Mon Nov 16 19:42:41 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:42:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Listmember's Publication In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911161642k764100b8h7698921dcce667c@mail.gmail.com> You did, indeed, Chris---the very same poem with minor changes and a different title. I appreciate your most kind response! Best, Judy 2009/11/16 Chris Lott > I think I read this poem here at some point in the not-too-distant past. > > Excellent! > > c > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > Judy Prince has just been published in The Nervous Breakdown: > > > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > > > Robin Hamilton > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ciccariello Mon Nov 16 19:56:38 2009 From: ciccariello (Peter) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:56:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Listmember's Publication In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0911161642k764100b8h7698921dcce667c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC3430D1EBB5C4-3A74-1D16E@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0911161642k764100b8h7698921dcce667c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8f3fdbad0911161656y70cff7darf7dbe3dd069a19ad@mail.gmail.com> "let go and walk space", indeed... Wonderful Judy! - Peter >> >> c >> >> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Robin Hamilton >> wrote: >> > Judy Prince has just been published in The Nervous Breakdown: >> > >> > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >> > >> > > -- http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ http://uncommonvision.blogspot.com/ http://poemsfromprovidence.blogspot.com/ http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ You can find my art and writing updates on Twitter https://twitter.com/ciccariello -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 06:32:07 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:32:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70911150451qd102 c5cke31440a80bd5fbb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0289B7.7030909@nut-n-but.net> > > It's amazing anyone would pay $1 for that book. This kind of strange > paradox-- in which a talentless or stupid or horribly venal or > massively under-qualified person becomes famous despite those very > traits being so obvious-- must pop up a lot in places where more > people go on to real fame. Doesn't happen much with people from > Alaska, so it's all very surreal, disturbing and mystifying. > > c > Why should one be upset that another celebrity air-headed political figure gets a good publishing deal but not that her equivalents in poetry do. --Bob G -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hudson.jade Tue Nov 17 10:54:56 2009 From: hudson.jade (Jade Hudson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:54:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The End Times Message-ID: <943e8fc0911170754i1fafadm684a27758aa0eefb@mail.gmail.com> Heed the signs friends! The deadline for ToxicPoetry.com's Second Exhibition of MP3 poetry cometh! On November 28th we will close our concrete-reinforced doors to construct the anticipated, second, online exhibition. Many thanks to those who have already contributed most excellent work to our cause! For those of you who have not yet discovered salvation, ToxicPoetry.com is an independent, online press for international, experimental, mp3 poems. We publish out of a nuclear bunker in Ohio, but the joyous din of our e-book-style publication is enjoyed in a multitude of other countries. Our primary objective is to showcase our artists. Therefore, our issues are distributed for free. Don't believe it? Check *this* out: Exhibition 1 Interested? Visit our Contribution Page for specific submission instructions. Be sure to E-mail questions or comments to editors at toxicpoetry.com Taste our Formidable Substance blog , post to it, 'tis a command. ToxicPoetry.com (everything else is simply a waste) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 17 11:31:51 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:31:51 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4B0289B7.7030909@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com> <4B0289B7.7030909@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: First, because Palin's book deal is far beyond anything *any* poet is getting. Second, because she could actually have an impact on our lives. But most importantly, I'm really not that upset at the book deal in general-- many clown write books. Everyone seems to be focused on Palin, while I was just noting the strange feeling of having the class dunce emerge as an operative or one's geeky classmate turn into a billionaire. It doesn't happen very often (ever, as far as I know) with people from Alaska, so it's a new kind of unreality. c On Tue, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> It's amazing anyone would pay $1 for that book. This kind of strange >> paradox-- in which a talentless or stupid or horribly venal or >> massively under-qualified person becomes famous despite those very >> traits being so obvious-- must pop up a lot in places where more >> people go on to real fame. Doesn't happen much with people from >> Alaska, so it's all very surreal, disturbing and mystifying. >> >> c > > Why should one be upset that another celebrity air-headed political figure > gets a good publishing deal but not that her equivalents in poetry do. > > --Bob G > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd Tue Nov 17 11:41:29 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:41:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky Message-ID: Here's an example of the work of Daniel Borzutzky, the poet that, as I noted the other day, David Kirby blurbed so highly. Are Nudists Nuts? after Elton R. Shaw, ?Are Nudists Nuts,? Sex: Sane Sex Standards, June 1935 King Saul was a nut. He stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel. Jesus was probably a nut. Disciples were nuts. When they were fishing they were often nude. They saw nothing improper in disrobing because in some occupation snudity was common. Isaiah was a nut. The Lord told Isaiah to be a nudist and he was one for three years. The Lord told Isaiah to loose the sackcloth off his loins and the shoes off his feet and Isaiah did so, going naked and barefoot. Thus by the prophet walking naked and barefoot three years was the shameful captivity of Egypt and Ethiopia prefigured. Early Christians were nuts. Historians of the early church tell us that in the outdoor ceremonies the rite of baptism was administered to candidates in the nude. Also, the nude bodies of early Christians were oiled during purification ceremonies. Many outstanding ministers of our day are nuts. The outstanding pioneer in German nudism was a Lutheran Minister. The nudists are not nuts. The nuts are the people who are slaves to the Superstitions of the obscenity of the human body. According to one nut, members of a tribe accustomed to nudity, when made to assume clothing for the first time, exhibit as much confusion as would a European compelled to strip in public. Another nut adds that nothing would make for avoidance of potbellies and other acquired deformities as nudity would. What good are clothes? Clothing tends to make men bad. Judge B. Linsey wishes the day might come when we might strip every stitch from our bodies anywhere at anytime without shame. The human body in action, as in a graceful dance, or in athletic exercise, brings elements of esthetic enjoyment to the spectator. Nudists are nuts. Let?s take them to Africa and let them run around with baboons and monkeys. What is a nut? When you?ve bats in your belfry, if your comprenezvous rope is cut. If you?ve nobody home in the top of your dome then your head is not a head; it?s a nut. --Daniel Borzutzky. The Ecstasy of Capitulation. BlazeVOX [books], 2007. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes Tue Nov 17 12:10:36 2009 From: almaginnes (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:10:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC35C003C70236-A04-7CE7@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Well, I can see why Kirby likes him. Not sure it works for me. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 11:41 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky Here's an example of the work of Daniel Borzutzky, the poet that, as I noted the other day, David Kirby blurbed so highly. Are Nudists Nuts? after Elton R. Shaw, ?Are Nudists Nuts,? Sex: Sane Sex Standards, June 1935 King Saul was a nut. He stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel. Jesus was probably a nut. Disciples were nuts. When they were fishing they were often nude. They saw nothing improper in disrobing because in some occupation snudity was common. Isaiah was a nut. The Lord told Isaiah to be a nudist and he was one for three years. The Lord told Isaiah to loose the sackcloth off his loins and the shoes off his feet and Isaiah did so, going naked and barefoot. Thus by the prophet walking naked and barefoot three years was the shameful captivity of Egypt and Ethiopia prefigured. Early Christians were nuts. Historians of the early church tell us that in the outdoor ceremonies the rite of baptism was administered to candidates in the nude. Also, the nude bodies of early Christians were oiled during purification ceremonies. Many outstanding ministers of our day are nuts. The outstanding pioneer in German nudism was a Lutheran Minister. The nudists are not nuts. The nuts are the people who are slaves to the Superstitions of the obscenity of the human body. According to one nut, members of a tribe accustomed to nudity, when made to assume clothing for the first time, exhibit as much confusion as would a European compelled to strip in public. Another nut adds that nothing would make for avoidance of potbellies and other acquired deformities as nudity would. What good are clothes? Clothing tends to make men bad. Judge B. Linsey wishes the day might come when we might strip every stitch from our bodies anywhere at anytime without shame. The human body in action, as in a graceful dance, or in athletic exercise, brings elements of esthetic enjoyment to the spectator. Nudists are nuts. Let?s take them to Africa and let them run around with baboons and monkeys. What is a nut? When you?ve bats in your belfry, if your comprenezvous rope is cut. If you?ve nobody home in the top of your dome then your head is not a head; it?s a nut. --Daniel Borzutzky. The Ecstasy of Capitulation. BlazeVOX [books], 2007. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 12:42:00 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:42:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> I meant to say that I applauded the blurb you quoted, David, because it did a good job of letting a potential reader know what was inside. But, yow, was I wrong. Naturally, I assumed that poetry was inside. I guess you need more than a blurb, even an accurate one as this book's, to always be right about what's in a book. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 12:47:19 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:47:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com><4B0289B7.7030909@nut-n-but.ne t> Message-ID: <4B02E1A7.7040904@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > First, because Palin's book deal is far beyond anything *any* poet is > getting. There are a lot of poets getting too much, and that's the problem, not how much too much. > Second, because she could actually have an impact on our > lives. > Not on mine. But I don't live in feebdom, only have to travel in it from time to time. > But most importantly, I'm really not that upset at the book deal in > general-- many clowns write books. Everyone seems to be focused on > Palin, while I was just noting the strange feeling of having the class > dunce emerge as an operative or one's geeky classmate turn into a > billionaire. It doesn't happen very often (ever, as far as I know) > with people from Alaska, so it's a new kind of unreality. Okay, but it happens all the time with politicians, very few if any aren't morons. --Bob From chris Tue Nov 17 13:52:57 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:52:57 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4B02E1A7.7040904@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70911161414r7a59a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com> <4B02E1A7.7040904@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Second, because she could actually have an impact on our >> lives. >> > > Not on mine. ?But I don't live in feebdom, only have to travel in it from > time to time. I don't know... if you live in the US and Palin becomes President (or some other high-ranking office), she will likely have an impact on your life. > Okay, but it happens all the time with politicians, very few if any aren't > morons. Not from here it doesn't. c From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 17 15:08:40 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:08:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> References: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911171208o2063f6e5y7f3a3475f71e0837@mail.gmail.com> It works with me. He could have gone even further, like showing how tied we are still to the French Court with spotted nudity, part of a leg, an arm, part of a hand, the graceful poses, but that might be material for French philosophers rather than for poets. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I meant to say that I applauded the blurb you quoted, David, because it did > a good job of letting a potential reader know what was inside. But, yow, > was I wrong. Naturally, I assumed that poetry was inside. I guess you need > more than a blurb, even an accurate one as this book's, to always be right > about what's in a book. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 15:11:27 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:11:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70911161414r7a59 a291w124a70ac1ee656c@mail.gmail.com><4B02E1A7.7040904@nut-n-but.net > Message-ID: <4B03036F.9040705@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >>> Second, because she could actually have an impact on our >>> lives. >>> >>> >> Not on mine. But I don't live in feebdom, only have to travel in it from >> time to time. >> > > I don't know... if you live in the US and Palin becomes President (or > some other high-ranking office), she will likely have an impact on > your life. > Not a significant one. Only artists and what I call verosophers (seekers of consequential truths--scientists, historians, philosophers) are capable of having a significant effect on me. As for politicians, the difference between what one of them tries to force me to do and what another does (and they are all nothing but trivila would-be slave-masters) is, in the final analysis, trivial. Some might gain the temporary power to do great physical or even mortal harm to me, but for those of us with functioning minds that's a small matter--and we can generally low-profile our way to various safe havens under their attention, as I've managed to do for many years. To put it in the simplest terms. > >> Okay, but it happens all the time with politicians, very few if any aren't morons. >> > > Not from here it doesn't. > > My "okay" was in agreement with the Alaska part of your opinion. Not from Port Charlotte, either, I might add. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 17 15:50:09 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:50:09 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] someone who could command a reported $5 million forwriting this book In-Reply-To: <4B03036F.9040705@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4B03036F.9040705@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Fair enough. I see the government as having a pretty significant effect on my life-- and that of my family. c On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > > Second, because she could actually have an impact on our > lives. > > > > Not on mine. ?But I don't live in feebdom, only have to travel in it from > time to time. > > > I don't know... if you live in the US and Palin becomes President (or > some other high-ranking office), she will likely have an impact on > your life. > > > Not a significant one.? Only artists and what I call verosophers (seekers of > consequential truths--scientists, historians, philosophers) are capable of > having a significant effect on me.? As for politicians, the difference > between what one of them tries to force me to do and what another does (and > they are all nothing but trivila would-be slave-masters) is, in the final > analysis, trivial.? Some might gain the temporary power to do great physical > or even mortal harm to me, but for those of us with functioning minds that's > a small matter--and we can generally low-profile our way to various safe > havens under their attention, as I've managed to do for many years. > > To put it in the simplest terms. > > > > Okay, but it happens all the time with politicians, very few if any aren't > morons. > > > Not from here it doesn't. > > > > My "okay" was in agreement with the Alaska part of your opinion.? Not from > Port Charlotte, either, I might add. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 16:52:32 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:52:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B03036F.9040705@nut-n-but.ne t> Message-ID: <4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.net> At poeticks.com I have a poem that all of you who are politically correct will take to be horrendously racist, I'm sure--but I, its author, do not. Unfortuantely, I don't take it to be much of a poem, either, but I feel I was after something somewhat interesting. --Bob G. From jforjames Tue Nov 17 18:13:17 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:13:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> References: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CC35F2AE40B6B2-3670-928D@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> I meant to say that I applauded the blurb you quoted, David, because it did a good job of letting a potential reader know what was inside -- The best method for knowing what is inside a book is to open it. Anyone who buys a book solely on the basis of blurb copy, is nuts. I won't judge Borzutky by this one poem, but that sample isn't encouraging. It's not ultra-talk poetry; it's more like a whacky essay-poem. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky I meant to say that I applauded the blurb you quoted, David, because it did a good job of letting a potential reader know what was inside. But, yow, was I wrong. Naturally, I assumed that poetry was inside. I guess you need more than a blurb, even an accurate one as this book's, to always be right about what's in a book. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 17 19:25:11 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:25:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: <8CC35F2AE40B6B2-3670-928D@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> References: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> <8CC35F2AE40B6B2-3670-928D@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B033EE7.9030309@nut-n-but.net> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > I meant to say that I applauded the blurb you quoted, David, > because it did a good job of letting a potential reader know what > was inside > > > -- > The best method for knowing what is inside a book is to open it. > Anyone who buys a book solely on the basis of blurb copy, is nuts. Depends on the blurb. I wouldn't have bought this one on the basis of the blurb but would have examined it more closely. However, had the blurber stated that the texts within were lineated prose opinions and provided at least one sample of an entire text, I believe I would have gotten enough information about the book to decide whether or not to buy it. The influences on the author would have helped, too. Etc. A blurb needn't be hype. It can actually be informative, as mine always are. > I won't judge Borzutky by this one poem, but that sample isn't > encouraging. It's not ultra-talk poetry; it's more like a whacky > essay-poem. > Finnegan If this sample David presented is characteristic of the book, the book is a collection of opinions, not poems. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 17 20:15:53 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:15:53 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Daniel Borzutzky In-Reply-To: <4B033EE7.9030309@nut-n-but.net> References: <4B02E068.7090003@nut-n-but.net> <8CC35F2AE40B6B2-3670-928D@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> <4B033EE7.9030309@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > I won't judge Borzutky by this one poem, but that sample isn't encouraging. > It's not ultra-talk poetry; it's more like a whacky essay-poem. > Finnegan > > If this sample David presented is characteristic of the book, the book is a > collection of opinions, not poems. A collection of whacky essays? Sound OK to me! c From uche Wed Nov 18 00:07:24 2009 From: uche (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:07:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > At poeticks.com I have a poem that all of you who are politically correct > will take to be horrendously racist, I'm sure--but I, its author, do not. > Unfortuantely, I don't take it to be much of a poem, either, but I feel I > was after something somewhat interesting. > I don't kow what "politically correct" means, but me? I lean toward Me'Shell Ndege'Ocello for that sort of thing, especially _Peace Beyond Passion_. I generally have to be moved before I can be shocked. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 18 09:20:15 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:20:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry Message-ID: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> As a follow up to Judy's poem about Werner Von Braun as a St. Kilda's bird, I found this article.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/nov/18/simon-armitage-tim-dee-bird-poems Simon Armitage and Tim Dee's top 10 bird poems >From nursery rhyme to Baudelaire, the birdwatcher and the poet spot literature's finest flights of fancy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 18 09:34:03 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:34:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> Wild Swans at Coole? Rime of the Ancient Mariner? Williams' sparrow? I would agree with Windhover at the top of the list. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > As a follow up to Judy's poem about Werner Von Braun as a St. Kilda's > bird, I found this article.... > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/nov/18/simon-armitage-tim-dee-bird-poems > > Simon Armitage and Tim Dee's top 10 bird poems > > From nursery rhyme to Baudelaire, the birdwatcher and the poet spot > literature's finest flights of fancy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames Wed Nov 18 13:03:08 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:03:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> Hurt Hawks -I- The broken pillar of the wing jags from the clotted shoulder, The wing trails like a banner in defeat, No more to use the sky forever but live with famine And pain a few days: cat nor coyote Will shorten the week of waiting for death, there is game without talons. He stands under the oak-bush and waits The lame feet of salvation; at night he remembers freedom And flies in a dream, the dawns ruin it. He is strong and pain is worse to the strong, incapacity is worse. The curs of the day come and torment him At distance, no one but death the redeemer will humble that head, The intrepid readiness, the terrible eyes. The wild God of the world is sometimes merciful to those That ask mercy, not often to the arrogant. You do not know him, you communal people, or you have forgotten him; Intemperate and savage, the hawk remembers him; Beautiful and wild, the hawks, and men that are dying, remember him. -II- I'd sooner, except the penalties, kill a man than a hawk; but the great redtail Had nothing left but unable misery >From the bone too shattered for mending, the wing that trailed under his talons when he moved. We had fed him six weeks, I gave him freedom, He wandered over the foreland hill and returned in the evening, asking for death, Not like a beggar, still eyed with the old Implacable arrogance. I gave him the lead gift in the twilight. What fell was relaxed, Owl-downy, soft feminine feathers; but what Soared: the fierce rush: the night-herons by the flooded river cried fear at its rising Before it was quite unsheathed from reality. Robinson Jeffers -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry Wild Swans at Coole? Rime of the Ancient Mariner? Williams' sparrow? I would agree with Windhover at the top of the list. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > As a follow up to Judy's poem about Werner Von Braun as a St. Kilda's > bird, I found this article.... > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/nov/18/simon-armitage-tim-dee-bird-poems > > Simon Armitage and Tim Dee's top 10 bird poems > > From nursery rhyme to Baudelaire, the birdwatcher and the poet spot > literature's finest flights of fancy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan Wed Nov 18 13:23:10 2009 From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:23:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> My ornithologist colleague, Dale Birkenholz and I have given three presentations for the local Audubon Society and the general public, all of them featuring bird poems. I'll paste in below the program for one of them. You'll see that several of the candidates mentioned here are on the program. Bill Morgan The John Wesley Powell Chapter of the National Audubon Society presents Words Take Wing: The Poet as Ornithologist Some Classic and Contemporary Poems about Birds Take Two Bill Morgan and Dale Birkenholz October 18, 2006 7:00 PM Studio 222 108 E. Market Street Bloomington, Illinois I. Birds as transcendent beings, symbols, mysteries, prophets, portents, messengers, etc. Thomas Hardy, "The Darkling Thrush" Gerard Manley Hopkins, "The Windhover" Robert Frost, "The Oven Bird" Bill Morgan, "Among Goldfinches" Judith Valente, "Leonardo's Notebook" II. Poets as Naturalists/Observers of Bird Life Emily Dickinson, "A Bird came down the Walk" David Wagoner, "Nuthatch" Kathryn Kerr, "Song of Songs" William Stafford, "Gulls at Cannon Beach" John Heath-Stubbs, "The Starling" Ardis L. Stewart, "The Bird-bander" Mary Oliver, "Hawk" Bill Morgan, "The Colors of Knowing" Lucia Cordell Getsi, "Living in Trees" Walt Whitman, "The Dalliance of the Eagles" III. Epilogue: Three Poems for 'The Year of the Raptor' Robinson Jeffers, "Vulture" Kathryn Kerr, "Spring Equinox" Robinson Jeffers, "Hurt Hawks" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 18 13:37:05 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:37:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com><4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org><8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> Message-ID: <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> The very idea of a bird is a symbol and a suggestion to the poet. A bird seems to be at the top of the scale, so vehement and intense his life. . . The beautiful vagabonds, endowed with every grace, masters of all climes, and knowing no bounds -- how many human aspirations are realized in their free, holiday-lives -- and how many suggestions to the poet in their flight and song! ?John Burroughs (1837 ? 1921, American naturalist and essayist) -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 18 14:00:26 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:00:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911181100l5fb2b030t32b0d6d512ba59ae@mail.gmail.com> I have always loved birds. And it was with great disappointment that I had to fight off pigeons from my window when I first entered this apartment. A heavy landing, I'd say. On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:37 PM, wrote: > > The very idea of a bird is a symbol and a suggestion to the poet. A bird > seems to be at the top of the scale, so vehement and intense his life. . > . The beautiful vagabonds, endowed with every grace, masters of all climes, > and knowing no bounds -- how many human aspirations are realized in their > free, holiday-lives -- and how many suggestions to the poet in their flight > and song! > > ?John Burroughs (1837 ? 1921, American naturalist and essayist) > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 18 15:35:36 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:35:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.n et> Message-ID: <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > At poeticks.com I have a poem that all of > you who are politically correct will take to be horrendously > racist, I'm sure--but I, its author, do not. Unfortuantely, I > don't take it to be much of a poem, either, but I feel I was after > something somewhat interesting. > > > I don't kow what "politically correct" means, but me? I lean toward > Me'Shell Ndege'Ocello for that sort of thing, especially _Peace Beyond > Passion_. I generally have to be moved before I can be shocked. I'm ignorant of "Me'Shell ndege'Ocello"--can you provide details? My poem's intentions are confused. To shock the politically correct (those Americans who are automatically offended by anything anyone could take to insult some minority) was one aim, but a very minor one. Won't get into what else I think I was trying for until I do a better job with the poem, if I return to it. I will say that I do always try to move a reader, and that I was trying (very unsuccessfully) to pull off a standard Iowa plaintext epiphany at the end of the poem, one de-victimizing the apparent victim of the poem. Thanks for the feedback. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Wed Nov 18 17:31:12 2009 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:31:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem, home: An Anthology of Ars Poetica Message-ID: <648208b60911181431i53c90d9yb0518ec35197a1f9@mail.gmail.com> poem, home: An Anthology of Ars Poetica PRE-ORDER FOR NOVEMBER 2009 RELEASE http://wordpainting.com/authors/shop.shtml The title says it all (well, almost all, the rest of the story is at the website that houses the full project. Includes poems by: Kelli Russell Agodon, Flor Aguilera, Karren L. Alenier, Sandra Alland, C. J. Allen, Ivan Arguelles, Anny Ballardini, Gary Barwin, Annette Basalyga, Rick Benjamin, John M. Bennett, Maxianne Berger, F .J. Bergmann, Cliff Bernier, Gregory Betts, Celia Bland, Dean Blehert, Helen Boettcher, Peter Boyle, Allen Braden, Therese L. Broderick, Mary Buchinger, Ana Buigues, Mike Burwell, Mair?ad Byrne, Nick Carb?, Cathy Carlisi, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, James Cervantes, Joel Chace, Ellen Cole, Ed Coletti, Jennifer Compton, Anne Coray, Alison Croggon, Del Ray Cross, Craig Czury, Yoko Danno, Lucille Lang Day, Denise Duhamel, Patrick Dunagan, Riccardo Duranti, Paul Dutton, Susanne Dyckman, Lynnell Edwards, Dan Featherston, Annie Finch, Thomas Fink, Alan Halsey, Sharon Harris, Lola Haskins, Nellie Hill, Nathan Hoks, Paul Hoover, Mikhail Horowitz, Ray Hsu, Halvard Johnson, Jill Jones, Adrianne Kalfopoulou, Bhanu Kapil, W. B. Keckler, Karl Kempton, Kit Kennedy, Tracy Koretsky, Greg Kosmicki, Gary Leising, Amy Lemmon, Lyn Lifshin, Diane Lockward, Rupert Mallin, Dr. Pamela McClure, Dr. D. H. Melhem, Hillary Mellon, Paul Mitchell, Carley Moore, Daniel Thomas Moran, Maggie Morley, Richard Newman, Angela O'Donnell, Shin Yu Pai, Helen Pavlin, Jonathan Penton, Alice Pero, Patrick Phillips, Paul Pines, Kevin Prufer, Chelsea Rathburn, Susan Rich, Cynthia Ris, Kim Roberts, Jay Rogoff, Kate Schapira, Barry Schwabsky, Derek Sheffield, Shoshauna Shy, Sue Stanford, Lucien Suel, Rod Summers, Eileen Tabios, Elaine Terranova, Heather Thomas, David Tipton, Juanita Torrence-Thompson, William Trowbridge, Priscilla Uppal, Katherine Varnes, Jeanne Wagner, Amy Watkins, Scott Watson, Melissa Weinstein, Carol Clark Williams, Jacquie Williams, Ernie Wormwood, Mark Young, and Andrena Zawinski. Edited by Jennifer Hill and Dan Waber 230 pages, $11.50 (includes shipping) -- Jim, among the names above ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 18 21:33:50 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:33:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.n et> <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> The explanation is kinda more offensive than the poem. Bob Grumman wrote: > Uche Ogbuji wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Bob Grumman >> > wrote: >> >> At poeticks.com I have a poem that all of >> you who are politically correct will take to be horrendously >> racist, I'm sure--but I, its author, do not. Unfortuantely, I >> don't take it to be much of a poem, either, but I feel I was >> after something somewhat interesting. >> >> >> I don't kow what "politically correct" means, but me? I lean toward >> Me'Shell Ndege'Ocello for that sort of thing, especially _Peace >> Beyond Passion_. I generally have to be moved before I can be shocked. > I'm ignorant of "Me'Shell ndege'Ocello"--can you provide details? > > My poem's intentions are confused. To shock the politically correct > (those Americans who are automatically offended by anything anyone > could take to insult some minority) was one aim, but a very minor > one. Won't get into what else I think I was trying for until I do a > better job with the poem, if I return to it. I will say that I do > always try to move a reader, and that I was trying (very > unsuccessfully) to pull off a standard Iowa plaintext epiphany at the > end of the poem, one de-victimizing the apparent victim of the poem. > > Thanks for the feedback. > > --Bob G. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From uche Wed Nov 18 22:56:12 2009 From: uche (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:56:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net> <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I'm ignorant of "Me'Shell ndege'Ocello"--can you provide details? > She is a black, gay bassist and singer/songwriter who's known for her genre-bending as well as for her quite provocative songs and song lyrics. _Peace Beyond Passion_ was one of her albums especially noted for its in-your-face quality (by 90's standards). For my part her lyrics along aren't as titillating as they are for mainstream critics, but her overall presentation is indeed very affecting and thus heightens the message of the lyrics. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 19 06:28:31 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:28:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.n et><4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4B052BDF.50409@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > The explanation is kinda more offensive than the poem. Oh? How so? --Bob From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 19 09:21:49 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:21:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds on the Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911190621j37fa48e6q2886125e514a7532@mail.gmail.com> I do not know where I read this poem before, but I love it: Diagnosis by Sharon Olds By the time I was six months old, she knew something was wrong with me. I got looks on my face she had not seen on any child in the family, or the extended family, or the neighborhood. My mother took me in to the pediatrician with the kind hands, a doctor with a name like a suit size for a wheel: Hub Long. My mom did not tell him what she thought in truth, that I was Possessed. It was just these strange looks on my face? he held me, and conversed with me, chatting as one does with a baby, and my mother said, She?s doing it now! Look! She?s doing it now! and the doctor said, What your daughter has is called a sense of humor. Ohhh, she said, and took me back to the house where that sense would be tested and found to be incurable. "Diagnosis" by Sharon Olds, from *One Secret Thing*. ? Random House, Inc., 2009. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 19 10:21:05 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:21:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA Message-ID: <8CC37430C086B98-D1C-162F3@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> http://www.telegram.com/article/20091119/NEWS/911190833/1011 In many ways, O?Hara is to Grafton what Jack Kerouac is to Lowell and Stanley Kunitz is to Worcester ? or at least he should be. That is why the Worcester County Poetry Association will celebrate O?Hara?s poetry and legacy at 7 tonight in the gallery at the Worcester Art Museum, 55 Salisbury St. Poets Alan Feldman and Gerrit Lansing will be reading. In addition, members of O?Hara?s family will be in attendance. Prior to the event, there will be absinthe tasting at 5:30 p.m. in the caf?. Cost is $10 museum admission and free to WAM members. At this celebration, WCPA will announce that one of its annual prizes will be renamed ?The Frank O?Hara Prize.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 19 10:26:14 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:26:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA In-Reply-To: <8CC37430C086B98-D1C-162F3@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC37430C086B98-D1C-162F3@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911190726m54d365c9ta6b34adb1a324aa4@mail.gmail.com> There is no way I can drink absinthe! I know this is not poetry... sorry. On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:21 PM, wrote: > http://www.telegram.com/article/20091119/NEWS/911190833/1011 > > In many ways, O?Hara is to Grafton what Jack Kerouac is to Lowell and > Stanley Kunitz is to Worcester ? or at least he should be. That is why the > Worcester County Poetry Association will celebrate O?Hara?s poetry and > legacy at 7 tonight in the gallery at the Worcester Art Museum, 55 Salisbury > St. > > Poets Alan Feldman and Gerrit Lansing will be reading. In addition, members > of O?Hara?s family will be in attendance. Prior to the event, there will be > absinthe tasting at 5:30 p.m. in the caf?. Cost is $10 museum admission and > free to WAM members. > > At this celebration, WCPA will announce that one of its annual prizes will > be renamed ?The Frank O?Hara Prize.? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 19 10:39:48 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:39:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911190726m54d365c9ta6b34adb1a324aa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC37430C086B98-D1C-162F3@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70911190726m54d365c9ta6b34adb1a324aa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC3745A93929D8-D1C-167BA@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> I've never had it...I like the color of it though. The drink has had a following among literary and visual artists... http://www.the-night.net/absinthe/adrinkers.htm In the 80s I drove thru Grafton MA (or close to it on Route 140) many times. I never realized it was O'Hara's hometown. I would have veered off the main road and tried to find his home. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:26 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA There is no way I can drink absinthe! I know this is not poetry... sorry. On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:21 PM, wrote: http://www.telegram.com/article/20091119/NEWS/911190833/1011 In many ways, O?Hara is to Grafton what Jack Kerouac is to Lowell and Stanley Kunitz is to Worcester ? or at least he should be. That is why the Worcester County Poetry Association will celebrate O?Hara?s poetry and legacy at 7 tonight in the gallery at the Worcester Art Museum, 55 Salisbury St. Poets Alan Feldman and Gerrit Lansing will be reading. In addition, members of O?Hara?s family will be in attendance. Prior to the event, there will be absinthe tasting at 5:30 p.m. in the caf?. Cost is $10 museum admission and free to WAM members. At this celebration, WCPA will announce that one of its annual prizes will be renamed ?The Frank O?Hara Prize.? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 19 11:28:36 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:28:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA In-Reply-To: <8CC3745A93929D8-D1C-167BA@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC37430C086B98-D1C-162F3@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70911190726m54d365c9ta6b34adb1a324aa4@mail.gmail.com> <8CC3745A93929D8-D1C-167BA@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911190828h748b1761va7cd63f5a8b7070f@mail.gmail.com> I did try it, it is very sweet. I think that on that page they do not mention Charles Baudelaire, or am I confusing him this time with Rimbaud? On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:39 PM, wrote: > I've never had it...I like the color of it though. The drink has had a > following among literary and visual artists... > http://www.the-night.net/absinthe/adrinkers.htm > > In the 80s I drove thru Grafton MA (or close to it on Route 140) many > times. I never realized it was O'Hara's hometown. I would have veered off > the main road and tried to find his home. > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:26 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA > > There is no way I can drink absinthe! I know this is not poetry... sorry. > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:21 PM, wrote: > >> http://www.telegram.com/article/20091119/NEWS/911190833/1011 >> >> In many ways, O?Hara is to Grafton what Jack Kerouac is to Lowell and >> Stanley Kunitz is to Worcester ? or at least he should be. That is why the >> Worcester County Poetry Association will celebrate O?Hara?s poetry and >> legacy at 7 tonight in the gallery at the Worcester Art Museum, 55 Salisbury >> St. >> >> Poets Alan Feldman and Gerrit Lansing will be reading. In addition, >> members of O?Hara?s family will be in attendance. Prior to the event, there >> will be absinthe tasting at 5:30 p.m. in the caf?. Cost is $10 museum >> admission and free to WAM members. >> >> At this celebration, WCPA will announce that one of its annual prizes will >> be renamed ?The Frank O?Hara Prize.? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 19 11:30:17 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:30:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem, home: An Anthology of Ars Poetica In-Reply-To: <648208b60911181431i53c90d9yb0518ec35197a1f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60911181431i53c90d9yb0518ec35197a1f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911190830g44d7f0a8l5a24b85de0b0fe74@mail.gmail.com> thanks James, yes, do pre-order or order, Dan Waber and Jennifer Hill deserve it. On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:31 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > poem, home: An Anthology of Ars Poetica > PRE-ORDER FOR NOVEMBER 2009 RELEASE > > http://wordpainting.com/authors/shop.shtml > > The title says it all (well, almost all, the rest of the story is at the > website that houses the full project. > Includes poems by: Kelli Russell Agodon, Flor Aguilera, Karren L. Alenier, > Sandra Alland, C. J. Allen, Ivan Arguelles, Anny Ballardini, Gary Barwin, > Annette Basalyga, Rick Benjamin, John M. Bennett, Maxianne Berger, F .J. > Bergmann, Cliff Bernier, Gregory Betts, Celia Bland, Dean Blehert, Helen > Boettcher, Peter Boyle, Allen Braden, Therese L. Broderick, Mary Buchinger, > Ana Buigues, Mike Burwell, Mair?ad Byrne, Nick Carb?, Cathy Carlisi, Wendy > Taylor Carlisle, James Cervantes, Joel Chace, Ellen Cole, Ed Coletti, > Jennifer Compton, Anne Coray, Alison Croggon, Del Ray Cross, Craig Czury, > Yoko Danno, Lucille Lang Day, Denise Duhamel, Patrick Dunagan, Riccardo > Duranti, Paul Dutton, Susanne Dyckman, Lynnell Edwards, Dan Featherston, > Annie Finch, Thomas Fink, Alan Halsey, Sharon Harris, Lola Haskins, Nellie > Hill, Nathan Hoks, Paul Hoover, Mikhail Horowitz, Ray Hsu, Halvard Johnson, > Jill Jones, Adrianne Kalfopoulou, Bhanu Kapil, W. B. Keckler, Karl Kempton, > Kit Kennedy, Tracy Koretsky, Greg Kosmicki, Gary Leising, Amy Lemmon, Lyn > Lifshin, Diane Lockward, Rupert Mallin, Dr. Pamela McClure, Dr. D. H. > Melhem, Hillary Mellon, Paul Mitchell, Carley Moore, Daniel Thomas Moran, > Maggie Morley, Richard Newman, Angela O'Donnell, Shin Yu Pai, Helen Pavlin, > Jonathan Penton, Alice Pero, Patrick Phillips, Paul Pines, Kevin Prufer, > Chelsea Rathburn, Susan Rich, Cynthia Ris, Kim Roberts, Jay Rogoff, Kate > Schapira, Barry Schwabsky, Derek Sheffield, Shoshauna Shy, Sue Stanford, > Lucien Suel, Rod Summers, Eileen Tabios, Elaine Terranova, Heather Thomas, > David Tipton, Juanita Torrence-Thompson, William Trowbridge, Priscilla > Uppal, Katherine Varnes, Jeanne Wagner, Amy Watkins, Scott Watson, Melissa > Weinstein, Carol Clark Williams, Jacquie Williams, Ernie Wormwood, Mark > Young, and Andrena Zawinski. > > Edited by Jennifer Hill and Dan Waber > > 230 pages, $11.50 (includes shipping) > > > -- Jim, among the names above > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Thu Nov 19 11:49:21 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:49:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara native son of Grafton MA In-Reply-To: <8CC3745A93929D8-D1C-167BA@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I lived in Worcester in the 1970s. Nice to know that the Worcester County Poetry Association is still active. They did great work promoting poetry in the schools, hosting readings, holding poetry contests, and so forth. It was a terrific place to be when I was just out of college & looking for poetic community. Pretty much every prominent poet of the day came through on reading tours, often repeatedly. I remember Robert Bly remarking once that, whenever the family coffers got a little low, his kids would say to him, "Daddy, isn't it time to go to Worcester?" There are a lot of schools in Worcester (Holy Cross, Clark U, Worcester Polytech, Anna Maria, Assumption, Worcester State, etc.), but the WCPA was very much a grass roots operation, unaffiliated with any academic institution. Grafton's a suburb of Worcester. In addition to O'Hara and Kunitz, Worcester can claim Elizabeth Bishop, Charles Olson, and (most wonderfully) Robert Benchley. Ernest Lawrence Thayer also wrote "Casey at the Bat" in Worcester. . . . On 11/19/09 9:39 AM, "jforjames at aol.com" wrote: > In the 80s I drove thru Grafton MA (or close to it on Route 140) many times. I > never realized it was O'Hara's hometown. I would have veered off the main road > and tried to find his home. > > Finnegan -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Thu Nov 19 12:55:13 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:55:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.n et> <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> Message-ID: <795061.336.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> And doesn't invest much faith in the power of what words can actually do, aside from shock. Of course, it takes more effort to complicate than it does to mock, but the effects of the former aren't so immediate and short-lived. _______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm ----- Original Message ---- From: TheOldMole To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:33:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior The explanation is kinda more offensive than the poem. Bob Grumman wrote: > Uche Ogbuji wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> At poeticks.com I have a poem that all of >> you who are politically correct will take to be horrendously >> racist, I'm sure--but I, its author, do not. Unfortuantely, I >> don't take it to be much of a poem, either, but I feel I was >> after something somewhat interesting. >> >> >> I don't kow what "politically correct" means, but me? I lean toward Me'Shell Ndege'Ocello for that sort of thing, especially _Peace Beyond Passion_. I generally have to be moved before I can be shocked. > I'm ignorant of "Me'Shell ndege'Ocello"--can you provide details? > > My poem's intentions are confused. To shock the politically correct (those Americans who are automatically offended by anything anyone could take to insult some minority) was one aim, but a very minor one. Won't get into what else I think I was trying for until I do a better job with the poem, if I return to it. I will say that I do always try to move a reader, and that I was trying (very unsuccessfully) to pull off a standard Iowa plaintext epiphany at the end of the poem, one de-victimizing the apparent victim of the poem. > > Thanks for the feedback. > > --Bob G. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________ From amyhappens Thu Nov 19 14:07:36 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:07:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tomorrow_--_Friday=2C_final_Stain_reading?= =?utf-8?q?_of_2009_--_Lily_Brown=2C_D=C3=A9Lana_R=2EA=2E_Dameron=2C_Dorot?= =?utf-8?q?hea_Lasky=2C_Akilah_Oliver=2C_Lytton_Smith_and_Joshua_Marie_Wil?= =?utf-8?q?kinson!?= Message-ID: <372743.59532.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Friday, join us for the final Stain reading of 2009 with an owl-star lineup: Lily Brown, D?Lana R.A. Dameron, Dorothea Lasky, Akilah Oliver, Lytton Smith and Joshua Marie Wilkinson! Lily Brown is from Massachusetts and currently lives in Chicago and in Athens, where she is a student in the Ph.D. program at UGA. She holds an M.F.A. from Saint Mary?s College, and her poems have appeared or will appear in Fence, Pleiades, Denver Quarterly, 26, Handsome, and Tarpaulin Sky, among other journals. She is the author of two chapbooks, The Renaissance Sheet, published by Octopus Books, and Old with You, published by Kitchen Press. A third chapbook, Museum Armor, is forthcoming from Doublecross Press. D?Lana R.A. Dameron holds a B.A. in history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and has a strong interest in the intersections of history and literature. Her first book of poems How God Ends Us won the 2008 South Carolina Poetry Book prize, selected by Elizabeth Alexander. She has received fellowships from the Cave Canem foundation and Soul Mountain and is a member of the Carolina African American Writer?s Collective. Dameron, a native of Columbia, South Carolina, currently resides in New York City. More at www.delanadameron.com. Dorothea Lasky is the author of AWE (Wave Books, 2007) and Black Life (Wave Books, 2010). Her chapbooks include Tourmaline (Transmission Press, 2008), The Hatmaker?s Wife (Braincase Press, 2006), Art (H_NGM_N Press, 2006), and Alphabets and Portraits (Anchorite Press, 2005). She has been educated at Washington University, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, and Harvard University. Currently, she studies creativity and education at the University of Pennsylvania. Akilah Oliver is the author of A Toast in the House of Friends (Coffee House Press, 2009), The Putterer?s Notebook (Belladonna, 2007), (a)August (Yo-Yo Labs, 2006), and the she said dialogues: flesh memory (Smokeproof/Erudite Fangs, 2009). She is the recipient of the PEN Beyond Margins Award, and her poetry with collaborator Ambrose Bye and Anne Waldman can be heard on the new CD, Matching Half. Oliver has been artist-in-residence at Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center in Los Angeles, was curator for the Poetry Project?s Monday Night Reading Series, co-founder of the avant-garde feminist performance group The Sacred Naked Nature Girls, and is on the faculty of the Summer Writing Program at Naropa University. She currently lives and teaches in Brooklyn. Lytton Smith?s debut collection The All-Purpose Magical Tent (Nightboat Books, 2009) was selected by Terrance Hayes for the Nightboat Prize. His chapbook, Monster Theory, was chosen by Kevin Young for a Poetry Society of America Chapbook Fellowship and published in 2008. His poems and reviews have appeared in American Letters & Commentary, The Atlantic, Bateau, The Believer, Boston Review, Colorado Review, Denver Quarterly, Ninth Letter, Tin House, Verse, and the anthology All That Mighty Heart: London Poems. Joshua Marie Wilkinson has two new books out: The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth (Tupelo, 2009), and 12?12: Conversations in 21st Poetry & Poetics (coedited by Christina Mengert; Iowa, 2009). He lives in Andersonville, Chicago and Athens, Georgia. at 7 PM on Friday, November 20th Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bozicevic ~ For more information, visit http://stainofpoetry.com/ Amy King, Curator, Stain of Poetry Reading Series Ana Bozicevic, Curator, Stain of Poetry Reading Series and Program ______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm From jforjames Thu Nov 19 16:24:29 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:24:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com><4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org><8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com><029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> The Owl Downhill I came, hungry, and yet not starved, Cold, yet had heat within me that was proof Against the north wind; tired, yet so that rest Had seemed the sweetest thing under a roof. Then at the inn I had food, fire, and rest, Knowing how hungry, cold, and tired was I. All of the night was quite barred out except An owl's cry, a most melancholy cry. Shaken out long and clear upon the hill No merry note, nor cause of merriment, But one telling me plain what I escaped And others could not, that night, as in I went. And salted was my food, and my repose, Salted and sobered too, by the bird's voice Speaking for all who lay under the stars, Soldiers and poor, unable to rejoice. --Edward Thomas - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Nov 19 17:54:38 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:54:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Chance to Feel Morally Superior In-Reply-To: <795061.336.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b65c2d70911141400k4fd24de6p4dd023ca5d705c3d@mail.gmail.com><4AFFEA63.6070903@nut-n-but.net><4B031B20.2000200@nut-n-but.net> <4B045A98.80905@nut-n-but.net> <4B04AE8E.8040405@opus40.org> <795061.336.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B05CCAE.40706@nut-n-but.net> amy king wrote: > And doesn't invest much faith in the power of what words can actually do, aside from shock. I admit to unsympathetically feeling others should be as superior to words as I am. However, you seem to have missed that I said causing shock was only a small aim of my words. > > > Of course, it takes more effort to complicate than it does to mock, but the effects of the former aren't so immediate and short-lived. You've lost me here. Mocking can be pretty complicated. Its effects can be pretty long-lasting , too: Aristophanes is still a force in literature, for instance. --Bob From Opus40-01 Thu Nov 19 16:58:57 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:58:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com><4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org><8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com><029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> OWLS That woman who breeds owls for hunting trained to bring her trophies carcasses with delicate bones was once herself a burrowing gopher engaged in furtive sorties till guile transformed her as few have been before she left no sign of her former existence but she knew where the trails led could see the subterranean patterns of deception could set her birds at the mouth of each escape route she knew each scream by pitch when surprise turned to terror which bone had been snapped --Tad Richards jforjames at aol.com wrote: > The Owl > > > Downhill I came, hungry, and yet not starved, > Cold, yet had heat within me that was proof > Against the north wind; tired, yet so that rest > Had seemed the sweetest thing under a roof. > > Then at the inn I had food, fire, and rest, > Knowing how hungry, cold, and tired was I. > All of the night was quite barred out except > An owl's cry, a most melancholy cry. > > Shaken out long and clear upon the hill > No merry note, nor cause of merriment, > But one telling me plain what I escaped > And others could not, that night, as in I went. > > And salted was my food, and my repose, > Salted and sobered too, by the bird's voice > Speaking for all who lay under the stars, > Soldiers and poor, unable to rejoice. > > --Edward Thomas > > > > > > - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini Fri Nov 20 09:36:41 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:36:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Raymond_Carver=92s_Life_and_Storie?= =?windows-1252?q?s?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911200636x7943959bw445c208b0724f243@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/books/review/King-t.html?_r=1&hp -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Nov 20 10:18:25 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:18:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com><4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org><8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com><029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> Message-ID: <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Nice owls, Tad! I think among contemporary Americans, at least, Brendan Galvin must be our bird-po laureate. All his books contain poems on birds, and I believe he's collected some from various books into a single collection, too (title escaping me). Here's one on the American eagle. I love that it's set in the town dump: Seeing for Ourselves town dump There are people so big in the brain they can't find anything, the dumpkeeper believes, and he won't help, so whatever you see you'll have to see for yourself. Conditioned by the logo, don't look for a senatorial mane or a jaundiced eye, lethally alert. Gulls will part the air, given time enough, and head east and west on sudden errands. Down that corridor, with the same black matter-of-fact as crowflight, only bigger and mottled underneath, and raggedy the way things always turn out in home-made America: one immature bald eagle, late from a hacking cage, or with luck and no trace of DDT, a wild shell. That it looks tired is only understatement. It can overtake a pintail, though it's here for the rats and a dumped mess of bass. That it's here at all is democratic, since we all come down to this meadow where the breeze from our overkill obliterates bloodlines. The dumpkeeper won't say if he's proud to be its camarado, just that he hasn't seen it, but knows if we do it'll snatch us out of the tanglefoot of ourselves. --Brendan Galvin. Sky and Island Light. LSU Press, 1996. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 19, 2009, at 3:58 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > OWLS > > > That woman who breeds > > owls for hunting > > trained to bring her trophies > > carcasses > > with delicate bones > > > was once herself > > a burrowing gopher > > engaged in > > furtive sorties till > > guile transformed her > > > as few have been before > > she left no > > sign of her former > > existence but > > she knew where the trails led > > > could see the > > subterranean > > patterns of deception > > could set her birds > > at the mouth > > of each escape route > she knew each scream by pitch > > when surprise turned > > to terror > > which bone had been snapped > > > > > --Tad Richards > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Fri Nov 20 10:19:50 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:19:50 -0900 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_Raymond_Carver=92s_Life_and_Stories?= In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911200636x7943959bw445c208b0724f243@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70911200636x7943959bw445c208b0724f243@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Annie. I'm excited about both of these books by and about Carver. I own all of his published work, but what I've seen so far confirms King's take-- Lish ultimately did more harm than good... but who knows how it would have turned out if Carver hadn't allowed it. And I have to say, the more non-horror writing I see of Stephen King's, the more my respect grows. Most of his fiction just isn't my thing, but pieces like this review are an entirely different animal. c On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/books/review/King-t.html?_r=1&hp > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd Fri Nov 20 10:27:04 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:27:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Crow Songs In-Reply-To: <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com><4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org><8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com><029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Message-ID: And here's one of my own birdpoems, published a while back in Jim Cervantes's *Salt River Review*: Crow Songs 1. Crow Feast As I climb from sleep?s cave this morning crows are already on the job, jabbering over a splay of flesh and feathers on the lawn (pigeon, probably)?dead with no better memorial. Tomorrow some rain, and the lawn will be clean, crows still yakking in the high oaks, frat-boy laughter, feathers gleaming like gun barrels. Just big flapping dung beetles, really, doing their appointed work, boisterous yet no-nonsense, too, like nurses joshing of this-and-that while rinsing bed pans. I could never love a bird? those dinosaur claws and eyes pitiless as stones. But these creatures are all dark flash and tinted windows, mobsters of my morning, high-rollers of the windy streets. Yes, they?ve got style, these oily apparitions, and they draw me close like blood spilling from a limousine door. 2. Apostrophe to the Crows Obviously, you?ve escaped from the corners of a Rembrandt drawing, flying raggedly over the marsh, squawking crude jests in Dutch, airing your matter of fact contempt for the squirrels, those French exhibitionists with their plumy tails. I?m surprised Rembrandt never painted you close up as he did that side of beef?he would have savored your glossy depth, ugly functional faces, your disdain for every propriety. For you?re the dogs of the air, every flock a mongrel pack, every morsel an argument, every stunning cloud equally easy to ignore. No, you?re not beautiful, yet still you stake your claim on beauty?s tidy landscape, you artists of trash bin and road kill. You sweep the sky clean as cobblestones with your shiny wings, you solve the mind-body problem entirely with a proverb and a dirty joke. You leave nothing unscorned or unsaid when night departs and reveals, once again, the power of ugly wit. Raucous hungover grandfathers, you?re always headed elsewhere in skeptic fury, yet somehow every morning you fill our massive walnut with ancient satire and wild ease. --David Graham. Salt River Review, Vol. II, No. 1 Winter, 1999-2000. http://www.poetserv.org/SRR7/graham_1.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Fri Nov 20 11:26:03 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:26:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911200826i1e077c92l49bae471190a8dd5@mail.gmail.com> Lovely, David. I perked up entirely with "sudden errands" and just kept on enjoying the music and figures and grand-plain descriptions. Best, Judy 2009/11/20 David Graham > Nice owls, Tad! > > I think among contemporary Americans, at least, Brendan Galvin must be our > bird-po laureate. All his books contain poems on birds, and I believe he's > collected some from various books into a single collection, too (title > escaping me). > > Here's one on the American eagle. I love that it's set in the town dump: > > *Seeing for Ourselves* > > * * > > * **town dump* > > > > There are people so big in the brain > > they can't find anything, > > the dumpkeeper believes, > > and he won't help, so whatever > > you see you'll have to see > > for yourself. Conditioned by the logo, > > don't look for a senatorial mane > > or a jaundiced eye, lethally alert. > > Gulls will part the air, given > > time enough, and head east > > and west on sudden errands. > > Down that corridor, with the same > > black matter-of-fact as crowflight, > > only bigger and mottled underneath, > > and raggedy the way things > > always turn out in home-made > > America: one immature bald eagle, > > late from a hacking cage, > > or with luck and no trace of DDT, > > a wild shell. That it looks tired > > is only understatement. > > It can overtake a pintail, > > though it's here for the rats > > and a dumped mess of bass. > > That it's here at all > > is democratic, since we all > > come down to this meadow > > where the breeze from our overkill > > obliterates bloodlines. The dumpkeeper > > won't say if he's proud > > to be its camarado, just that he > > hasn't seen it, but knows if we do > > it'll snatch us out of the tanglefoot > > of ourselves. > > > > --Brendan Galvin. *Sky and Island Light*. LSU Press, 1996. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 19, 2009, at 3:58 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > OWLS > > > That woman who breeds > > owls for hunting > > trained to bring her trophies > > carcasses > > with delicate bones > > > was once herself > > a burrowing gopher > > engaged in > > furtive sorties till > > guile transformed her > > > as few have been before > > she left no > > sign of her former > > existence but > > she knew where the trails led > > > could see the > > subterranean > > patterns of deception > > could set her birds > > at the mouth > > of each escape route > she knew each scream by pitch > > when surprise turned > > to terror > > which bone had been snapped > > > > > --Tad Richards > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Fri Nov 20 11:28:46 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:28:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Crow Songs In-Reply-To: References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911200828u4b045346g24af923017d64cfc@mail.gmail.com> You got me, especially with the joshing nurses---and every line thereafter rolls out fresh standout emotion-tied figures. Best, Judy 2009/11/20 David Graham > And here's one of my own birdpoems, published a while back in Jim > Cervantes's *Salt River Review*: > > > *Crow Songs* > > > > 1. *Crow Feast* > > > > As I climb from sleep?s cave this morning > > crows are already on the job, jabbering > > over a splay of flesh and feathers on the lawn > > (pigeon, probably)?dead with no better memorial. > > Tomorrow some rain, and the lawn will be clean, > > crows still yakking in the high oaks, frat-boy laughter, > > feathers gleaming like gun barrels. Just big > > flapping dung beetles, really, doing their > > appointed work, boisterous yet no-nonsense, too, > > like nurses joshing of this-and-that while rinsing > > bed pans. I could never love a bird? > > those dinosaur claws and eyes pitiless as stones. > > But these creatures are all dark flash > > and tinted windows, mobsters of my morning, > > high-rollers of the windy streets. > > Yes, they?ve got style, these oily apparitions, > > and they draw me close like blood > > spilling from a limousine door. > > > > > > 2. *Apostrophe to the Crows* > > > > Obviously, you?ve escaped from the corners > > of a Rembrandt drawing, flying raggedly > > over the marsh, squawking crude jests > > in Dutch, airing your matter of fact contempt > > for the squirrels, those French exhibitionists > > with their plumy tails. I?m surprised > > Rembrandt never painted you close up > > as he did that side of beef?he would have savored > > your glossy depth, ugly functional faces, > > your disdain for every propriety. For you?re > > the dogs of the air, every flock a mongrel pack, > > every morsel an argument, every stunning cloud > > equally easy to ignore. No, you?re not > > beautiful, yet still you stake your claim > > on beauty?s tidy landscape, you artists > > of trash bin and road kill. You sweep the sky > > clean as cobblestones with your shiny wings, > > you solve the mind-body problem entirely > > with a proverb and a dirty joke. You leave > > nothing unscorned or unsaid when night departs > > and reveals, once again, the power of ugly wit. > > Raucous hungover grandfathers, you?re always > > headed elsewhere in skeptic fury, yet somehow > > every morning you fill our massive walnut > > with ancient satire and wild ease. > > > --David Graham. *Salt River Review*, Vol. II, No. 1 Winter, 1999-2000. > > http://www.poetserv.org/SRR7/graham_1.html > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Fri Nov 20 12:35:07 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:35:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Axiomatic Sonnet Message-ID: Axiomatic Sonnet While we can all take inspiration from those disabled dolphins, being laid down as a general axiom is not the pleasure that it used to be. My rule is "Do not start to run until you know what it is you are chasing, or what it is that is chasing you." Stet. Or did I mean to say, "Stat"? While the rising tide lifts all boats, it is ax- iomatic that not all boats are equally seaworthy and that those of the poor more often tend to choose sinking to swimming when they're down to their last two options. Her closed, convex body cuddled close to his while in his ear she whispered, "Tithonus rising drives away the night, and hoar-frost flees the meadows." Adopting an axiom, of course, is no laughing matter, especially when living in a country without universal health care, where stitches in time don't save nine, where oil and water sometimes mix, where some- thing ventured doesn't necessarily gain much at all, if anything. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Fri Nov 20 13:13:29 2009 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:13:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems are for the Birds Message-ID: <731bb17a0911201013h110f60e6k9de65fb1298ff098@mail.gmail.com> Here's a bird poem that came to mind . . . All aflutter, Jeff Newberry Hurt Hawks Robinson Jeffers I The broken pillar of the wing jags from the clotted shoulder, The wing trails like a banner in defeat, No more to use the sky forever but live with famine And pain a few days: cat nor coyote Will shorten the week of waiting for death, there is game without talons. He stands under the oak-bush and waits The lame feet of salvation; at night he remembers freedom And flies in a dream, the dawns ruin it. He is strong and pain is worse to the strong, incapacity is worse. The curs of the day come and torment him At distance, no one but death the redeemer will humble that head, The intrepid readiness, the terrible eyes. The wild God of the world is sometimes merciful to those That ask mercy, not often to the arrogant. You do not know him, you communal people, or you have forgotten him; Intemperate and savage, the hawk remembers him; Beautiful and wild, the hawks, and men that are dying, remember him. II I'd sooner, except the penalties, kill a man than a hawk; but the great redtail Had nothing left but unable misery >From the bone too shattered for mending, the wing that trailed under his talons when he moved. We had fed him six weeks, I gave him freedom, He wandered over the foreland hill and returned in the evening, asking for death, Not like a beggar, still eyed with the old Implacable arrogance. I gave him the lead gift in the twilight. What fell was relaxed, Owl-downy, soft feminine feathers; but what Soared: the fierce rush: the night-herons by the flooded river cried fear at its rising Before it was quite unsheathed from reality. -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalopytown Fri Nov 20 14:31:08 2009 From: jalopytown (Aaron Anstett) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:31:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems are for the Birds Message-ID: <422039.76768.qm@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "Linnets," of course, by Larry Levis, from The Afterlife. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Fri Nov 20 19:05:24 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:05:24 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Reminds me of Unalaska where, at times, Bald Eagles are a nuisance bird, perching on dumpsters, ripping open trash bags and scavenging all around town... c On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:18 AM, David Graham wrote: > Nice owls, Tad! > I think among contemporary Americans, at least, Brendan Galvin must be our > bird-po laureate. ?All his books contain poems on birds, and I believe he's > collected some from various books into a single collection, too (title > escaping me). > Here's one on the American eagle. ?I love that it's set in the town dump: > > Seeing for Ourselves > > > > ???? town dump > > > > There are people so big in the brain > > they can't find anything, > > the dumpkeeper believes, > > and he won't help, so whatever > > you see you'll have to see > > for yourself. Conditioned by the logo, > > don't look for a senatorial mane > > or a jaundiced eye, lethally alert. > > Gulls will part the air, given > > time enough, and head east > > and west on sudden errands. > > Down that corridor, with the same > > black matter-of-fact as crowflight, > > only bigger and mottled underneath, > > and raggedy the way things > > always turn out in home-made > > America: one immature bald eagle, > > late from a hacking cage, > > or with luck and no trace of DDT, > > a wild shell. That it looks tired > > is only understatement. > > It can overtake a pintail, > > though it's here for the rats > > and a dumped mess of bass. > > That it's here at all > > is democratic, since we all > > come down to this meadow > > where the breeze from our overkill > > obliterates bloodlines. The dumpkeeper > > won't say if he's proud > > to be its camarado, just that he > > hasn't seen it, but knows if we do > > it'll snatch us out of the tanglefoot > > of ourselves. > > > > --Brendan Galvin.? Sky and Island Light.? LSU Press, 1996. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > On Nov 19, 2009, at 3:58 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > OWLS > > > That woman who breeds > > owls for hunting > > trained to bring her trophies > > carcasses > > with delicate bones > > > was once herself > > a burrowing gopher > > engaged in > > furtive sorties till > > guile transformed her > > > as few have been before > > she left no > > sign of her former > > existence but > > she knew where the trails led > > > could see the > > subterranean > > patterns of deception > > could set her birds > > at the mouth > > of each escape route > she knew each scream by pitch > > when surprise turned > > to terror > > which bone had been snapped > > > > > --Tad Richards > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin Fri Nov 20 21:03:57 2009 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:03:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <6768ac830911201803l324444b1k7279613ff10a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> more owls Anthony Hecht, "The End Of The Weekend" A dying firelight slides along the quirt Of the cast iron cowboy where he leans Against my father's books. The lariat Whirls into darkness. My girl in skin tight jeans Fingers a page of Captain Marriat Inviting insolent shadows to her shirt. We rise together to the second floor. Outside, across the lake, an endless wind Whips against the headstones of the dead and wails In the trees for all who have and have not sinned. She rubs against me and I feel her nails. Although we are alone, I lock the door. The eventual shapes of all our formless prayers: This dark, this cabin of loose imaginings, Wind, lip, lake, everything awaits The slow unloosening of her underthings And then the noise. Something is dropped. It grates against the attic beams. I climb the stairs Armed with a belt. A long magnesium shaft Of moonlight from the dormer cuts a path Among the shattered skeletons of mice. A great black presence beats its wings in wrath. Above the boneyard burn its golden eyes. Some small grey fur is pulsing in its grip. Richard Wilbur, "A Barred Owl" The warping night-air having brought the boom Of an owl's voice into her darkened room, We tell the wakened child that all she heard Was an odd question from a forest bird, Asking of us, if rightly listened to, "Who cooks for you?" and then "Who cooks for you?" Words, which can make our terrors bravely clear, Can also thus domesticate a fear, And send a small child back to sleep at night Not listening for the sound of stealthy flight Or dreaming of some small thing in a claw Borne up to some dark branch and eaten raw. On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 7:05 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > Reminds me of Unalaska where, at times, Bald Eagles are a nuisance > bird, perching on dumpsters, ripping open trash bags and scavenging > all around town... > > c > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:18 AM, David Graham wrote: >> Nice owls, Tad! >> I think among contemporary Americans, at least, Brendan Galvin must be our >> bird-po laureate. ?All his books contain poems on birds, and I believe he's >> collected some from various books into a single collection, too (title >> escaping me). >> Here's one on the American eagle. ?I love that it's set in the town dump: >> >> Seeing for Ourselves >> >> >> >> ???? town dump >> >> >> >> There are people so big in the brain >> >> they can't find anything, >> >> the dumpkeeper believes, >> >> and he won't help, so whatever >> >> you see you'll have to see >> >> for yourself. Conditioned by the logo, >> >> don't look for a senatorial mane >> >> or a jaundiced eye, lethally alert. >> >> Gulls will part the air, given >> >> time enough, and head east >> >> and west on sudden errands. >> >> Down that corridor, with the same >> >> black matter-of-fact as crowflight, >> >> only bigger and mottled underneath, >> >> and raggedy the way things >> >> always turn out in home-made >> >> America: one immature bald eagle, >> >> late from a hacking cage, >> >> or with luck and no trace of DDT, >> >> a wild shell. That it looks tired >> >> is only understatement. >> >> It can overtake a pintail, >> >> though it's here for the rats >> >> and a dumped mess of bass. >> >> That it's here at all >> >> is democratic, since we all >> >> come down to this meadow >> >> where the breeze from our overkill >> >> obliterates bloodlines. The dumpkeeper >> >> won't say if he's proud >> >> to be its camarado, just that he >> >> hasn't seen it, but knows if we do >> >> it'll snatch us out of the tanglefoot >> >> of ourselves. >> >> >> >> --Brendan Galvin.? Sky and Island Light.? LSU Press, 1996. >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> On Nov 19, 2009, at 3:58 PM, TheOldMole wrote: >> >> OWLS >> >> >> That woman who breeds >> >> owls for hunting >> >> trained to bring her trophies >> >> carcasses >> >> with delicate bones >> >> >> was once herself >> >> a burrowing gopher >> >> engaged in >> >> furtive sorties till >> >> guile transformed her >> >> >> as few have been before >> >> she left no >> >> sign of her former >> >> existence but >> >> she knew where the trails led >> >> >> could see the >> >> subterranean >> >> patterns of deception >> >> could set her birds >> >> at the mouth >> >> of each escape route >> she knew each scream by pitch >> >> when surprise turned >> >> to terror >> >> which bone had been snapped >> >> >> >> >> --Tad Richards >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From c.a.b.daly Sat Nov 21 02:06:56 2009 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:06:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <6768ac830911201803l324444b1k7279613ff10a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <4B0405DB.5030201@opus40.org> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> <6768ac830911201803l324444b1k7279613ff10a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: came across excerpts from Norma Cole's excellent bird poems in her new selected from City Lghts earlier this evening -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From by.tjmst Sat Nov 21 05:16:01 2009 From: by.tjmst (BY TJMST) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:16:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] CIVIC EDUCATION CONCERN -THE WITS IN AXIOMATIC SONNET REVIEWED BY HALVARD JOHNSON Message-ID: <5908b9b20911210216t6563796cjf7fa89c2fd06f64a@mail.gmail.com> civic concern briefs 201109 from GBEMISOYE TIJANI ONLINE BYLINE; GBEMI TIJANI MST [image: rationale for continuing civic education & poetry]** *Rationale for continuing CIVIC education & poetry* I'm a Rotarian ?or better still should say I would like to be a fruitful Rotarian by replicating clubs like the torus plant as a tool for community participation & development, mingling with poets, pastors, pilots and diverse professionals committed to a better world locally & globally. There ?s enough evidence by philanthropists as well as charity organizations that *reckon with the reality of unequal ribs* status since creation till modern capitalistic and welfare democracies and aren?t turn ?off with t*he imperfections of the citizen?s docility* at *their rulers crude selfish governance*. *Who?s to blame about this gap in civic responsibility? * I hope the world peoples should be prepared to share and learn how timely to dispense equity issues especially in developing democracies. Life style of the rich and the poor are incredibly widening beyond millennium development goals (MDGs) hitherto actualized bridging. *Universal health care and sanitation are rare but very crucial to enjoy effective living*. Maybe we should be enthused to learn beyond our traditional legal advocates. Poets too ? as unacknowledged legislators of the world by their wisdom can infuse development activism in individualists which can catalyze desired change rather than unbridled technical or constitutional review that might not engender any symbiotic peaceful dimensions in the polity. I could imagine the creativity that will be fired and the entrepreneurship that will be harvested beyond shareholders dividends if the banks facilitate viable customers project ?idea rather than lazily watching customers accounts they have no input till he propose business of banking with them. If micro financiers can perform appropriately as titled they shouldn?t have been operating on an epileptic mode depending on which government policy. Why should interest rates be beyond 9%.? In Nigeria they are even hasher than commercial peers with higher capitalization. If he mass media can also inform as it is and press dispassionately towards endogenous development ?they will be supporting the credence of TRANSPARENT INTERNATIONAL and other corruption surveillance organizations which Biodun Jeyifo of Harvard University has been annotating in The Nigerian Guardian On Sunday Series.IIif all adults in position of service or production and the arts are up and doing - how beautiful and wise if we know what governance and follower ship are?.I wholeheartedly buy the wits integral in the* Axiomatic Sonnet* reviewed by Halvard Johnson in The New Poetry of Friday 20 November 2009(Message 1) I liken it to the warning of a microbiologist ?it?s not enough to have the microscope one has to learn how to use it functionally in detail. Here?s an excerpt depicting the applicability of civility, decorum and creativity to the process and actors in governance no mater where they are.-also as Eric Rowe had written more than 30 years back from Nottingham Univrsity. Axiomatic Sonnet While we can all take inspiration from those disabled dolphins, being laid down as a general axiom is not the pleasure that it used to be. My rule is "Do not start to run until you know what it is you are chasing, or what it is that is chasing you." Stet. Or did I mean to say, "Stat"? While the rising tide lifts all boats, it is ax- iomatic that not all boats are equally seaworthy and that those of the poor more often tend to choose sinking to swimming when they're down to their last two options. Her closed, convex body cuddled close to his while in his ear she whispered, "Tithonus rising drives away the night, and hoar-frost flees the meadows." Adopting an axiom, of course, is no laughing matter, especially when living in a country without universal health care, where stitches in time don't save nine, where oil and water sometimes mix, where some- thing ventured doesn't necessarily gain much at all, if anything.? There are not just creative brain sin Nigeria and Africa as a continent there are also exportable professions who are Africans. There are a lot more undiscovered ?who aren?t yet been privileged to be educated or again who haven?t even step to the polytechnic and any of the Ivory Towers in the present dispensation. Education for health, contemporary economics, and health reporting across the years, health communication consultancy training & job experience have inspired/informed me that this world is full of* realistic needlessly inevitable inequality*. Mass media news & UN *expert research data, inappropriate manpower* confirmed that both the led & leaders are needlessly responsible for *citizenship nonchalance & leadership apathy.* Consequently, *chronic corruption* in the people & public officers led to poverty of good governance & often a state of anomy.* But the western nations can?t be totally exonerated from this widespread ethical decadence at the corporate and individual levels* .Local and global expositions of these cases divulged at the Rotary Intercity conference by the key notes speaker DR Barrister Olowogboyega Oyebade lends credence to this organizational cankerworm. Philosophically x ?rayed by Rotarians at Osogbo,Heritage Hotel, October 31st2009. There?s a way out since erosion of traditional mores and decadence of professional ethics are international issues compounded by breakthrough in the cyberspace. But should the internet overpower us? As Isaac Asimov writes in MIND OVER MATTER ?the robot shouldn?t outsmart man ?its inventor from the word :?Go. Modern man can use the internet to serve him for maximum personal and psychologically healthy social development? I have in mind the cyberspace as a global library that require some literacy than the static hard book museum . The rat race too contributed immensely to this civic malaise. Individual freedom and *boundlessly expanding propensities to possess* without family or legal query abets consumerism, digital stealing, armed robbery and group violence, gansteerism. Opulence without altruistic spirit to give back to society via humanitarian actions and passion for patriotic service are gaining ground without remorse of the anonymous *nouveau riche* excepting the likes of Melinda & Bill Gates. Above all - lack of dynamic civic literacy in the citizens and continuing cross ?sector *civic education of leaders in ethics not just skills or knowledge update* are negatively reinforcing incongruous leadership practices in all sectors and at all levels-politicians, bankers inclusive.! .*People?s conscience are easily been compromised for pittance & their future are indefinitely mortgaged beyond instant repair*. Human Rights are trampled on in terms of basic amenities that are not in place and human rights components are not implied nor informed nor developed to guaranty child?s, patient?s ,customers and the less privileged 's individuality,health,education,freedom, access to legal aid as indicated in The UN Declarations of The Rights Of The Child and The Physicians Oath Declaration of Geveva adopted by the 2nd World Medical Assembly, September 1948. More info pending by the Convener CIVIC PRODUCTIVITY INITIATIVE www.civicconcern.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Sat Nov 21 12:01:15 2009 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:01:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Zen "I" & poetry Message-ID: <648208b60911210901l606f9950ob2c847bde203bcab@mail.gmail.com> I thought the following was nicely put: C.T.: "How do you regard the presence of an identifiable speaker in your own poems? In much contemporary American poetry, the 'I' is seen as a persona, a character invented by the poet to function as a stand-in. In a poem, who are you?" SR: "That's funny! I just heard Roshi ask, 'Who are you?' - a very difficult koan! The truth is that I really don't know. The short answer is that 'I' is me; but the ongoing question is still, 'Who am I?' And I can't tell you. When asked, 'What time is it?' Yogi Berra said, 'You mean now?' I think that's a pretty good response to the question 'Who am I?' 'You mean now?' I'm not trying to be evasive. Small self appears and disappears. There is no fixed self. The 'I' in one poem is not necessarily the 'I' in a different one. Strictly speaking, the 'I' - and 'I' - is an invention, a fiction, a narrative in response to innumerable conditions and circumstances." - from an interview by Chase Twitchell with Seido Ray Ronci, Tricycle, Winter 2009 -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Nov 21 12:04:10 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:04:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Zen "I" & poetry In-Reply-To: <648208b60911210901l606f9950ob2c847bde203bcab@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60911210901l606f9950ob2c847bde203bcab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My answer to all CT's questions is Mu. Hal "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > I thought the following was nicely put: > > C.T.: > > "How do you regard the presence of an identifiable speaker in your own > poems? In much contemporary American poetry, the 'I' is seen as a persona, > a character invented by the poet to function as a stand-in. In a poem, who > are you?" > > > SR: > > "That's funny! I just heard Roshi ask, 'Who are you?' - a very difficult > koan! The truth is that I really don't know. The short answer is that 'I' > is me; but the ongoing question is still, 'Who am I?' And I can't tell you. > > > When asked, 'What time is it?' Yogi Berra said, 'You mean now?' I think > that's a pretty good response to the question 'Who am I?' 'You mean now?' > I'm not trying to be evasive. Small self appears and disappears. There is > no fixed self. The 'I' in one poem is not necessarily the 'I' in a > different one. Strictly speaking, the 'I' - and 'I' - is an invention, a > fiction, a narrative in response to innumerable conditions and > circumstances." > > > - from an interview by Chase Twitchell with Seido Ray Ronci, Tricycle, > Winter 2009 > > -- Jim > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Nov 21 14:36:21 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:36:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3690842E755F-1898-76DB@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> <6768ac830911201803l324444b1k7279613ff10a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911211136w9f9b70bv305ae0e994a4e3ec@mail.gmail.com> I am the proud editor of a beautiful Bird Poem: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3239 and Evelyn Posamentier's page if you wish to read more: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=261 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Nov 21 15:28:14 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:28:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] For the Birds: Best Bird Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911211136w9f9b70bv305ae0e994a4e3ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC367161ABC521-2978-3517@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <029101ca687c$2ee58e70$8cb0ab50$@edu> <8CC369542751CBD-1898-814F@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com> <8CC3775D04497AA-4EA0-2BA2@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <4B05BFA1.9080400@opus40.org> <0049AEA4-D979-413F-9497-4B10E0448F53@ripon.edu> <6768ac830911201803l324444b1k7279613ff10a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70911211136w9f9b70bv305ae0e994a4e3ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911211228p4f7ea8bcp3b1519228113be40@mail.gmail.com> And another bird poem: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3242 this time by Nuri Gene-Cos: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=364 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Sat Nov 21 15:47:25 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:47:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kunitz's house in Worcester Message-ID: <8CC3902F77F48B4-7C64-DF50@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com> http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091121/NEWS/911210307/-1/NEWSMAP WORCESTER ? Their paths might never have crossed if it hadn't been for a gut feeling Carol Stockmal had about the house on Woodford Street. Worcester natives Carol and Gregory Stockmal took one look at the stucco building back in 1979 and bought it on the spot, with a down payment of $50. Then about five years later, their lives would change forever when an older man ? Stanley Kunitz of Provincetown, a former U.S. poet laureate ? stood on the street, recalling his home as a teenager in the early 1900s. Now, Carol Stockmal, 58, has donated the couple's 20 years of correspondence with Kunitz to Clark University, following the death of her husband last year. The collection will be housed in the university library. It has about 210 individual pieces and is valued at about $30,000, college officials said. Among the most valuable pieces in the collection is a signed draft version of Kunitz's poem "My Mother's Pears," which Kunitz dedicated to the Stockmals, according to the university. The pear tree that he and his mother planted when he lived in the house remains to this day. The Stockmals would send a box of fresh pears to Kunitz and his wife each year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Sat Nov 21 15:52:36 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:52:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keith Waldrop wins Nat'l Book Award Message-ID: <8CC3903B0DC4933-7C64-DFF6@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com> http://www.projo.com/news/content/WALDROP_BOOK_AWARD_11-20-09_4PGH2O3_v18.3a61eec.html PROVIDENCE ? Professor Keith Waldrop skipped his Thursday class, but he had a good excuse. The night before he won the National Book Award for poetry for his experimental work, ?Transcendental Studies: A Trilogy,? published by University of California Press. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Nov 21 17:01:15 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:01:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Migrant Spaces in Transatlantic Perspective Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911211401m8aa6bd9rb0633b360d3bb5d6@mail.gmail.com> Tales of Transit Narrative Migrant Spaces in Transatlantic Perspective 1830-1954 International conference Felix Archive Antwerp, Belgium *new date: 9-12 June, 2010* *extended deadline: 15 December, 2009* Conference Theme Tales of Transit will bring together insights and methodologies from migration and maritime history, translation studies and literary studies, and confront these with the rich but largely underexplored archive of transatlantic migrant narratives. In view of the opening of the Red Star Line Museum in Antwerp, Tales of Transit takes the city as its starting point to rethink transatlantic migration. We encourage contributions offering comparative perspectives on migrants traveling through well-known as well as lesser known ports in Europe, Africa and the Americas. The focus may be broadened to include mainland cities functioning as nodal points for migration flows or border crossing points on the frontier between states or regions. Overall, the stress lies on how such liminal spaces are narrated or visualized in testimonies or fiction: How vital are these sites for the migrant?s tale? Do such loci affirm or rather subvert the migrants? aspirations and hopes? Does the perspective shift in accordance with the linguistic medium or audience expectations and, if so, in what ways? Contributions may address any of the above questions in relation to the Atlantic migration flows that came into force roughly from the 1830s onwards, as a consequence of unsettled conditions in Europe and elsewhere. The year 1954, when the Ellis Island Immigration Station closed, was selected as an appropriate terminus ad quem, indicating the transition from steamers to planes as the dominant mode of transatlantic transportation. Suggested Thematic Areas ? Language and translation ? Migration as business ? Iconography of migration ? Archiving testimonies A more detailed description of the theme can be found on the conference website: http://www.talesoftransit.eu. Keynote Speakers ? Matthew Frye Jacobson (Yale University) ? Nancy K. Miller (City University of New York) ? Adam Walaszek (Jagiellonian University Krakow) ? Werner Sollors (Harvard University) TBC Organizing Institutions ? Ghent University Association Research Group on Literature in Translation ? Faculty of Translation Studies, Ghent University College ? Institute of Jewish Studies, University of Antwerp ? Leuven Research Group on Literary Relations and Postnational Identities ? Lessius University College Department of Applied Language Studies ? Roosevelt Study Center, Middelburg ? Red Star Line Museum, Antwerp Guidelines for Submission and Presentation Paper proposals in English of no more than 300 words can be submitted to michael.boyden at hogent.be or liselotte.vandenbussche at hogent.be by *December 15, 2009*. The academic committee will evaluate the abstracts and send out notifications of acceptance by the end of the calendar year. Each participant will be given 20 minutes to present, followed by 10 minutes of discussion. A selection of papers will be published in the conference proceedings. Congress Fees Participants are expected to pay a conference fee of 60 EUR (88 USD), which covers the academic program, congress documentation, coffee breaks, a reception in the Antwerp city hall and an exclusive guided tour of the Red Star Line Museum (http://www.redstarline.be). The student rate is 30 EUR or 44 USD. Accommodation and City The conference site (http://www.felixarchief.be) is located in a former warehouse in the heart of the historical harbor, on walking distance from the city?s main attractions. Special hotel rates for conference participants are being negotiated. Details will be posted on the conference website. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Sat Nov 21 18:45:16 2009 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:45:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Zen "I" & poetry In-Reply-To: References: <648208b60911210901l606f9950ob2c847bde203bcab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60911211545g2c523078pc0741c8595e63d5a@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > My answer to all CT's questions is Mu. > > Hal > > "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a > factory or a truck passing by a music school?" > --John Cage > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I thought the following was nicely put: >> >> C.T.: >> >> "How do you regard the presence of an identifiable speaker in your own >> poems? In much contemporary American poetry, the 'I' is seen as a persona, >> a character invented by the poet to function as a stand-in. In a poem, who >> are you?" >> >> >> SR: >> >> "That's funny! I just heard Roshi ask, 'Who are you?' - a very difficult >> koan! The truth is that I really don't know. The short answer is that 'I' >> is me; but the ongoing question is still, 'Who am I?' And I can't tell you. >> >> >> When asked, 'What time is it?' Yogi Berra said, 'You mean now?' I think >> that's a pretty good response to the question 'Who am I?' 'You mean now?' >> I'm not trying to be evasive. Small self appears and disappears. There is >> no fixed self. The 'I' in one poem is not necessarily the 'I' in a >> different one. Strictly speaking, the 'I' - and 'I' - is an invention, a >> fiction, a narrative in response to innumerable conditions and >> circumstances." >> >> >> - from an interview by Chase Twitchell with Seido Ray Ronci, Tricycle, >> Winter 2009 >> >> -- Jim >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Nov 22 11:55:07 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:55:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Axiomatic Sonnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.com> You've been reading John Ashbery, what a voice he has, and that was Convex Mirror. Wonderful. On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Axiomatic Sonnet > > While we can all take inspiration from those disabled dolphins, > being laid down as a general axiom is not the pleasure that it used > to be. My rule is "Do not start to run until you know what it is > you are chasing, or what it is that is chasing you." Stet. Or did > > I mean to say, "Stat"? While the rising tide lifts all boats, it is ax- > iomatic that not all boats are equally seaworthy and that those > of the poor more often tend to choose sinking to swimming when > they're down to their last two options. Her closed, convex body > > cuddled close to his while in his ear she whispered, "Tithonus rising > drives away the night, and hoar-frost flees the meadows." Adopting > an axiom, of course, is no laughing matter, especially when living > in a country without universal health care, where stitches in time > > don't save nine, where oil and water sometimes mix, where some- > thing ventured doesn't necessarily gain much at all, if anything. > > > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Nov 22 12:07:51 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:07:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] again Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911220907k3efaa353kcd7412aa44fd2cb1@mail.gmail.com> On the first page of the New York Times, again: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/11/22/us/politics/20091122-PALIN_4.html you see what the difference between Sarah Palin and me is, I would be ashamed if I had to do what she does, ashamed deep inside. I need a motivation that has gone through a lot of questions and rethinking. It is probable that one of her advisers has read Debord's The Society of the Spectacle. Obstinate and inclement, the sanguine lady. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sun Nov 22 22:46:27 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:46:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Axiomatic Sonnet In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Surprised, Anny? I've been dipping into Ashbery here and there since the 70s anyway. A few minutes with Ashbery's work is as effective as a shot of adrenaline right into the heart. Just like that great scene in Pulp Fiction. Hal "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > You've been reading John Ashbery, what a voice he has, and that was Convex > Mirror. Wonderful. > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Axiomatic Sonnet >> >> While we can all take inspiration from those disabled dolphins, >> being laid down as a general axiom is not the pleasure that it used >> to be. My rule is "Do not start to run until you know what it is >> you are chasing, or what it is that is chasing you." Stet. Or did >> >> I mean to say, "Stat"? While the rising tide lifts all boats, it is ax- >> iomatic that not all boats are equally seaworthy and that those >> of the poor more often tend to choose sinking to swimming when >> they're down to their last two options. Her closed, convex body >> >> cuddled close to his while in his ear she whispered, "Tithonus rising >> drives away the night, and hoar-frost flees the meadows." Adopting >> an axiom, of course, is no laughing matter, especially when living >> in a country without universal health care, where stitches in time >> >> don't save nine, where oil and water sometimes mix, where some- >> thing ventured doesn't necessarily gain much at all, if anything. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Sun Nov 22 23:01:51 2009 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:01:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: I've been dipping into Ashbery here and there since the 70s anyway. A few minutes with Ashbery's work is as effective as a shot of adrenaline right into the heart. Just like that great scene in Pulp Fiction. Hal ================= I like this way of putting it. Anyone else feel like naming their own personal adrenaline poets? Not always the same thing as the poets we think are "great," I'd suggest, just the ones that reliably make us reach for pen or keyboard. For me the list varies a lot year to year, sometimes morning to night. But the old reliables for me, year after year, would definitely include Neruda and Whitman. In recent years, O'Hara and Goldbarth, too. A long list of others at various times, often as brief infatuations. A couple years back I channeled Ashbery, even, for several months (proof of which can be seen at Jim C's *Salt River Review*: http://www.poetserv.org/SRR31/graham.html) Robert Frost is a great poet but not, for me, much of an adrenaline shot. Dickinson, too. I love her work but can't use it much. Ditto Bishop, Williams, and many others. No one would know it to read my work, but I love Stevens and went through a serious Marianne Moore phase. And some have faded, alas, in their powers. Bly and Levertov were my first big loves, back in college, but neither one jolts me too often these days. Whereas Levine still does, and Roethke. . . . ================================ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================== -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3573 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 06:06:24 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 06:06:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.c om> <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <4B0A6CB0.1040701@nut-n-but.net> > I like this way of putting it. Anyone else feel like naming their own personal adrenaline poets? Not always the same thing as the poets we think are "great," I'd suggest, just the ones that reliably make us reach for pen or keyboard. For me, John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes, Marton Koppany. Sometimes Geof Huth and Karl Kempton. Formerly Stevens and Cummings. Each still does at times, but not so much. Then there are the prize announcements that James loves to pass on that have the opposite effect. . . . --Bob G. From AlMaginnes Mon Nov 23 08:14:19 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:14:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets Message-ID: Charles Wright and Levine both make me want to write when I read them. They are my most reliable sources of adrenaline. Others come and go. I finally figured out that some writers I love, such as Levis, encourage my worst tendencies as a poet, so I have to watch any surge of inspiration while I'm reading him--and I'm always reading him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 10:19:30 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:19:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets--What Do You Get From Them? In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.c om> <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> A poet who gives me an adrenaline boost usually does it by using some technique I've never used and think has potential. Only rarely will a poet treat some subject that makes me want to treat the same subject or a related one. I'm curious how other poets use the poetry that influences them. --Bob From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 10:22:33 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:22:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets That Make One Want to Parody Them In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.c om> <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <4B0AA8B9.2030003@nut-n-but.net> A different class of poets, those who provide a kind of oppositional adrenaline, as Lorie Graham did for me once. Several others. Or perhaps a whole class of poets or pseudo-poets. --Bob G. From halvard Mon Nov 23 10:40:46 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:40:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets--What Do You Get From Them? In-Reply-To: <4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> <4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: The same way that a car with a dead battery uses what's coming through the jump cable. Hal "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > A poet who gives me an adrenaline boost usually does it by using some > technique I've never used and think has potential. Only rarely will a poet > treat some subject that makes me want to treat the same subject or a related > one. I'm curious how other poets use the poetry that influences them. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Mon Nov 23 10:50:29 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:50:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets That Make One Want to Parody Them In-Reply-To: <4B0AA8B9.2030003@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On 11/23/09 9:22 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > A different class of poets, those who provide a kind of oppositional > adrenaline, as Lorie Graham did for me once. Several others. Or > perhaps a whole class of poets or pseudo-poets. > > --Bob G. ========== I feel the same way about Rob Silliman and W. L. Merwin. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 Mon Nov 23 10:58:09 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:58:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets That Make One Want to Parody Them Message-ID: In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:50:44 AM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > On 11/23/09 9:22 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > > >A different class of poets, those who provide a kind of oppositional > >adrenaline, as Lorie Graham did for me once. Several others. Or > >perhaps a whole class of poets or pseudo-poets. > > > >--Bob G. > > ========== > > > I feel the same way about Rob Silliman and W. L. Merwin. > Not to mention Philip Levin and Phyllis Levine. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 11:19:10 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:19:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets That Make One Want to Parody Them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0AB5FE.9000405@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > > On 11/23/09 9:22 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > > >> A different class of poets, those who provide a kind of oppositional >> adrenaline, as Lorie Graham did for me once. Several others. Or >> perhaps a whole class of poets or pseudo-poets. >> >> --Bob G. >> > > ========== > > > I feel the same way about Rob Silliman and W. L. Merwin. You mean, you've parodied them? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 11:35:29 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:35:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets--What Do You Get From Them? In-Reply-To: References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college><4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B0AB9D1.3000909@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > The same way that a car with a dead battery uses what's > coming through the jump cable. > > Hal Hal, we already know that you have no idea why or how anything happens, or even what it is that happens. No need to continually remind us. --Bob From jforjames Mon Nov 23 12:49:31 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:49:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles Message-ID: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> http://guerrillagirlsontour.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-books-of-2009.html POETRY Carrie Olivia Adams, Intervening Absence Kim Addonizio, Lucifer at the Starlite Deborah Ager, Midnight Voices Rae Armantrout, Versed Jessica Bozek, The Bodyfeel Lexicon Ana Bozicevic, Stars of the Night Commute Brigitte Byrd, Song of a Living Room Teresa Cader, A History of Hurricanes Gabrielle Calvocoressi, Apocalyptic Swing Kara Candito, Taste of Cherry Andrea Cohen, Long Divison Norma Cole, Where Shadows Will Gillian Conoley, The Plot Genie Rita Dove ,Sonata Mulattica Kate Durbin, The Ravenous Audience Robin Ekiss, The Mansion of Happiness Sarah Gambito, Delivered Amy Gerstler, Dearest Creature Kate Greenstreet,The Last 4 Things Marilyn Hacker, Names Leslie Harrison, Displacement Brenda Hillman, Practical Water Janet Holmes, The ms of m y kin Julie Kane, Jazz Funeral Bhanu Kapil, Humanimal Jesse Lee Kercheval, Cinema Muto Myung Mi Kim, Penury Amy King, Slaves to do These Things Ish Klein, Union! Noelle Kocot, Sunny Wednesday Jennifer Kronovet, Awayward Rachel Levitsky, Neighbor Rachel Loden, Dick of the Dead Dana Teen Lomax, Disclosure Barbara Maloutas, The Whole Marie Sabrina Orah Mark, Tsim Tsum Jen McCreary, :ab ovo: Karyna McGlynn, I Have to Go Back to 1994 and Kill a Girl Nicole Mauro, The Contortions Helena Mesa, Horse Dance Underwater Chelsey Minnis, Poemland Mel Nichols, Catalytic Exteriorization Phenomenon Hoa Nguyen, Hecate Lochia Lisa Olstein, Lost Alphabet Alicia Ostriker, The Book of Seventy Gaile Parkin, Baking Cakes In Kigali Carol Peters, Sixty Some Kiki Petrosino, Fort Red Border Marie Ponsot, Easy Lisa Robertson, Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip Sophie Robinson, a Kim Rosenfield, re: evolution Lee Ann Roripaugh, On the Cusp of a Dangerous Year Lisa Samuels, Tomorrowland Laurie Sandell, The Impostor's Daughter (Graphic Novel) Sarah Sarai, The Future is Happy Sandra Simonds, Warsaw Bikini Carmen Gimenez Smith, Odalisqued in Pieces Pamela Sneed, KONG Alison Stine, Ohio Violence Terese Svoboda ,Weapons Grade Stacy Szymaszek, Hyperglossia Michelle Taransky, Barn Burned, Then Eleanor Ross Taylor, Captive Voices Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon, Open Interval Catherine Wagner, My New Job Anne Waldman, Manatee/Humanity Liz Waldner, Trust Susan Wheeler, Assorted Poems Dara Wier, Selected Poems Allison Benis White, Self-Portrait with Crayon Rebecca Wolff, The King Karena Youtz, The Shape is Space Rachel Zucker, Museum of Accidents -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Mon Nov 23 12:50:58 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:50:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Britten and Auden characters in new Alan Bennett play Message-ID: <8CC3A7CA587853B-3DE0-14E60@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/arts/20iht-lon20.html Mr. Bennett in fact gives us two plays. The text being rehearsed in front of us tells of a (fictional) visit in 1972 in Oxford between the onetime artistic collaborators Auden, who would die the next year, and Britten that finds room within it for the competing attentions of a rent boy (Stephen Wight), whom Auden has hired for a frolicsome bit of fellatio, and of Humphrey Carpenter (Adrian Scarborough), both men?s real-life biographer, who is on hand to dispense important bits of narrative and raise questions about ?the shortcomings of great men.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Nov 23 15:28:08 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:28:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: And none dare call them sexist? Hal "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM, wrote: > > http://guerrillagirlsontour.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-books-of-2009.html > POETRY > Carrie Olivia Adams, Intervening Absence > Kim Addonizio, Lucifer at the Starlite > Deborah Ager, Midnight Voices > Rae Armantrout, Versed > Jessica Bozek, The Bodyfeel Lexicon > Ana Bozicevic, Stars of the Night Commute > Brigitte Byrd, Song of a Living Room > Teresa Cader, A History of Hurricanes > Gabrielle Calvocoressi, Apocalyptic Swing > Kara Candito, Taste of Cherry > Andrea Cohen, Long Divison > Norma Cole, Where Shadows Will > Gillian Conoley, The Plot Genie > Rita Dove ,Sonata Mulattica > Kate Durbin, The Ravenous Audience > Robin Ekiss, The Mansion of Happiness > Sarah Gambito, Delivered > Amy Gerstler, Dearest Creature > Kate Greenstreet,The Last 4 Things > Marilyn Hacker, Names > Leslie Harrison, Displacement > Brenda Hillman, Practical Water > Janet Holmes, The ms of m y kin > Julie Kane, Jazz Funeral > Bhanu Kapil, Humanimal > Jesse Lee Kercheval, Cinema Muto > Myung Mi Kim, Penury > Amy King, Slaves to do These Things > Ish Klein, Union! > Noelle Kocot, Sunny Wednesday > Jennifer Kronovet, Awayward > Rachel Levitsky, Neighbor > Rachel Loden, Dick of the Dead > Dana Teen Lomax, Disclosure > Barbara Maloutas, The Whole Marie > Sabrina Orah Mark, Tsim Tsum > Jen McCreary, :ab ovo: > Karyna McGlynn, I Have to Go Back to 1994 and Kill a Girl > Nicole Mauro, The Contortions > Helena Mesa, Horse Dance Underwater > Chelsey Minnis, Poemland > Mel Nichols, Catalytic Exteriorization Phenomenon > Hoa Nguyen, Hecate Lochia > Lisa Olstein, Lost Alphabet > Alicia Ostriker, The Book of Seventy > Gaile Parkin, Baking Cakes In Kigali > Carol Peters, Sixty Some > Kiki Petrosino, Fort Red Border > Marie Ponsot, Easy > Lisa Robertson, Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip > Sophie Robinson, a > Kim Rosenfield, re: evolution > Lee Ann Roripaugh, On the Cusp of a Dangerous Year > Lisa Samuels, Tomorrowland > Laurie Sandell, The Impostor's Daughter (Graphic Novel) > Sarah Sarai, The Future is Happy > Sandra Simonds, Warsaw Bikini > Carmen Gimenez Smith, Odalisqued in Pieces > Pamela Sneed, KONG > Alison Stine, Ohio Violence > Terese Svoboda ,Weapons Grade > Stacy Szymaszek, Hyperglossia > Michelle Taransky, Barn Burned, Then > Eleanor Ross Taylor, Captive Voices > Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon, Open Interval > Catherine Wagner, My New Job > Anne Waldman, Manatee/Humanity > Liz Waldner, Trust > Susan Wheeler, Assorted Poems > Dara Wier, Selected Poems > Allison Benis White, Self-Portrait with Crayon > Rebecca Wolff, The King > Karena Youtz, The Shape is Space > Rachel Zucker, Museum of Accidents > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 23 15:36:17 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:36:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911231236u114f4c2cm257c4f206646520@mail.gmail.com> If you go to the following: http://willalist.wikia.com/wiki/The_WILLA_List_Wiki you will find the new additions, i.e.: me, too! C'on Hal, this is only for Girls, you Boys, you always play around with your ball. On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > And none dare call them sexist? > > Hal > > "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a > factory or a truck passing by a music school?" > --John Cage > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM, wrote: > >> >> http://guerrillagirlsontour.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-books-of-2009.html >> POETRY >> Carrie Olivia Adams, Intervening Absence >> Kim Addonizio, Lucifer at the Starlite >> Deborah Ager, Midnight Voices >> Rae Armantrout, Versed >> Jessica Bozek, The Bodyfeel Lexicon >> Ana Bozicevic, Stars of the Night Commute >> Brigitte Byrd, Song of a Living Room >> Teresa Cader, A History of Hurricanes >> Gabrielle Calvocoressi, Apocalyptic Swing >> Kara Candito, Taste of Cherry >> Andrea Cohen, Long Divison >> Norma Cole, Where Shadows Will >> Gillian Conoley, The Plot Genie >> Rita Dove ,Sonata Mulattica >> Kate Durbin, The Ravenous Audience >> Robin Ekiss, The Mansion of Happiness >> Sarah Gambito, Delivered >> Amy Gerstler, Dearest Creature >> Kate Greenstreet,The Last 4 Things >> Marilyn Hacker, Names >> Leslie Harrison, Displacement >> Brenda Hillman, Practical Water >> Janet Holmes, The ms of m y kin >> Julie Kane, Jazz Funeral >> Bhanu Kapil, Humanimal >> Jesse Lee Kercheval, Cinema Muto >> Myung Mi Kim, Penury >> Amy King, Slaves to do These Things >> Ish Klein, Union! >> Noelle Kocot, Sunny Wednesday >> Jennifer Kronovet, Awayward >> Rachel Levitsky, Neighbor >> Rachel Loden, Dick of the Dead >> Dana Teen Lomax, Disclosure >> Barbara Maloutas, The Whole Marie >> Sabrina Orah Mark, Tsim Tsum >> Jen McCreary, :ab ovo: >> Karyna McGlynn, I Have to Go Back to 1994 and Kill a Girl >> Nicole Mauro, The Contortions >> Helena Mesa, Horse Dance Underwater >> Chelsey Minnis, Poemland >> Mel Nichols, Catalytic Exteriorization Phenomenon >> Hoa Nguyen, Hecate Lochia >> Lisa Olstein, Lost Alphabet >> Alicia Ostriker, The Book of Seventy >> Gaile Parkin, Baking Cakes In Kigali >> Carol Peters, Sixty Some >> Kiki Petrosino, Fort Red Border >> Marie Ponsot, Easy >> Lisa Robertson, Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip >> Sophie Robinson, a >> Kim Rosenfield, re: evolution >> Lee Ann Roripaugh, On the Cusp of a Dangerous Year >> Lisa Samuels, Tomorrowland >> Laurie Sandell, The Impostor's Daughter (Graphic Novel) >> Sarah Sarai, The Future is Happy >> Sandra Simonds, Warsaw Bikini >> Carmen Gimenez Smith, Odalisqued in Pieces >> Pamela Sneed, KONG >> Alison Stine, Ohio Violence >> Terese Svoboda ,Weapons Grade >> Stacy Szymaszek, Hyperglossia >> Michelle Taransky, Barn Burned, Then >> Eleanor Ross Taylor, Captive Voices >> Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon, Open Interval >> Catherine Wagner, My New Job >> Anne Waldman, Manatee/Humanity >> Liz Waldner, Trust >> Susan Wheeler, Assorted Poems >> Dara Wier, Selected Poems >> Allison Benis White, Self-Portrait with Crayon >> Rebecca Wolff, The King >> Karena Youtz, The Shape is Space >> Rachel Zucker, Museum of Accidents >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Mon Nov 23 15:48:47 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:48:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <746624.99286.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> It was started in response to PW's all male list. If one isn't sexist, then neither is the other. Enjoy! ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 12:28:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles And none dare call them sexist? Hal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Nov 23 16:59:56 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:59:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911231236u114f4c2cm257c4f206646520@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70911231236u114f4c2cm257c4f206646520@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, just kidding around, Anny, Amy. Lists are just lists, and I don't hold much with 'em, as Huck might have said. Hal "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > If you go to the following: > http://willalist.wikia.com/wiki/The_WILLA_List_Wiki > > you will find the new additions, i.e.: me, too! > C'on Hal, this is only for Girls, you Boys, you always play around with > your ball. > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> And none dare call them sexist? >> >> Hal >> >> "Which is more musical, a truck passing by a >> factory or a truck passing by a music school?" >> --John Cage >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM, wrote: >> >>> >>> http://guerrillagirlsontour.blogspot.com/2009/11/best-books-of-2009.html >>> POETRY >>> Carrie Olivia Adams, Intervening Absence >>> Kim Addonizio, Lucifer at the Starlite >>> Deborah Ager, Midnight Voices >>> Rae Armantrout, Versed >>> Jessica Bozek, The Bodyfeel Lexicon >>> Ana Bozicevic, Stars of the Night Commute >>> Brigitte Byrd, Song of a Living Room >>> Teresa Cader, A History of Hurricanes >>> Gabrielle Calvocoressi, Apocalyptic Swing >>> Kara Candito, Taste of Cherry >>> Andrea Cohen, Long Divison >>> Norma Cole, Where Shadows Will >>> Gillian Conoley, The Plot Genie >>> Rita Dove ,Sonata Mulattica >>> Kate Durbin, The Ravenous Audience >>> Robin Ekiss, The Mansion of Happiness >>> Sarah Gambito, Delivered >>> Amy Gerstler, Dearest Creature >>> Kate Greenstreet,The Last 4 Things >>> Marilyn Hacker, Names >>> Leslie Harrison, Displacement >>> Brenda Hillman, Practical Water >>> Janet Holmes, The ms of m y kin >>> Julie Kane, Jazz Funeral >>> Bhanu Kapil, Humanimal >>> Jesse Lee Kercheval, Cinema Muto >>> Myung Mi Kim, Penury >>> Amy King, Slaves to do These Things >>> Ish Klein, Union! >>> Noelle Kocot, Sunny Wednesday >>> Jennifer Kronovet, Awayward >>> Rachel Levitsky, Neighbor >>> Rachel Loden, Dick of the Dead >>> Dana Teen Lomax, Disclosure >>> Barbara Maloutas, The Whole Marie >>> Sabrina Orah Mark, Tsim Tsum >>> Jen McCreary, :ab ovo: >>> Karyna McGlynn, I Have to Go Back to 1994 and Kill a Girl >>> Nicole Mauro, The Contortions >>> Helena Mesa, Horse Dance Underwater >>> Chelsey Minnis, Poemland >>> Mel Nichols, Catalytic Exteriorization Phenomenon >>> Hoa Nguyen, Hecate Lochia >>> Lisa Olstein, Lost Alphabet >>> Alicia Ostriker, The Book of Seventy >>> Gaile Parkin, Baking Cakes In Kigali >>> Carol Peters, Sixty Some >>> Kiki Petrosino, Fort Red Border >>> Marie Ponsot, Easy >>> Lisa Robertson, Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip >>> Sophie Robinson, a >>> Kim Rosenfield, re: evolution >>> Lee Ann Roripaugh, On the Cusp of a Dangerous Year >>> Lisa Samuels, Tomorrowland >>> Laurie Sandell, The Impostor's Daughter (Graphic Novel) >>> Sarah Sarai, The Future is Happy >>> Sandra Simonds, Warsaw Bikini >>> Carmen Gimenez Smith, Odalisqued in Pieces >>> Pamela Sneed, KONG >>> Alison Stine, Ohio Violence >>> Terese Svoboda ,Weapons Grade >>> Stacy Szymaszek, Hyperglossia >>> Michelle Taransky, Barn Burned, Then >>> Eleanor Ross Taylor, Captive Voices >>> Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon, Open Interval >>> Catherine Wagner, My New Job >>> Anne Waldman, Manatee/Humanity >>> Liz Waldner, Trust >>> Susan Wheeler, Assorted Poems >>> Dara Wier, Selected Poems >>> Allison Benis White, Self-Portrait with Crayon >>> Rebecca Wolff, The King >>> Karena Youtz, The Shape is Space >>> Rachel Zucker, Museum of Accidents >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Mon Nov 23 17:18:09 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:18:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles - Great Women Writers of 2009: Give Thanks In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70911231236u114f4c2cm257c4f206646520@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <485017.10367.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I know, Hal! Except lists are referenced, be it by the casual reader going to get a recommendation from Oprah or PW or by librarians acquiring books to finish off the year's budget or by publishers who pay Barnes and Noble to list them among their "top" whatever genre books. Lists, despite how beyond them we are, aren't beyond everyone and money goes into pockets & books/authors get readership, thanks to lists. Yet another: Great Women Writers of 2009: Give Thanks Thanksgiving is here and I want to give thanks to five women writers who in 2009 excited, enlivened, and energized me through their great books. Maybe these books did not make the male-dominated Publisher's Weekly List of Top Ten Books of 2009 but they made my top ten list in a year in which to date I have reviewed 380 books on www.readallday.org. These five writers worked magic for me. I sat down with each of their books and did not get up again until the last page was turned. These were the kind of books that left my mouth open in exhilaration, my heart pounding with satisfaction, and my fingers itchy to write about how great they were. My only regret was that there were not more pages in each book to consume and enjoy. For me, great writing is defined by a writer being fearless, engaging, original, and sincere. All of these books were all of that, and more. 1) Ruins by Achy Obejas is a beautifully written, heart-wrenching novel about the dignity of one man in the face of harsh daily deprivations and the slow deterioration of his dreams. Set in Cuba in 1994, it tells the story of Usnavy, a man fated to live his life under the shadow of the United States and yet determined to live as a proud Cuban and to hold faith in the revolution that Che Guevara promised. 2) Alice Fantastic by Maggie Estep is a charming and down-dirty story about lucky and plucky Alice, her clumsy sister Eloise, and their dog rescuing, ex-junkie mother. The novel presents the hilarious and heartbreaking ways people intertwine, overlap and just plain run over each other in the acts of love, friendship, sex, and gambling, and all other necessary acts of resistance. 3) How To Paint a Dead Man by Sarah Hall presents the stories of four very different and yet mysteriously intertwined characters. They have each suffered a devastating loss of some kind and they cope in different ways, and against currents of misunderstanding, loathing, fear, and wavering self-examination. The novel is utterly life affirming with its exploration of why and how we humans go on living despite the withering bouts of pain we must endure. 4) For Grace Received by Valeria Parrella is a collection of short stories about the grace that occurs when ordinary life meets extraordinary action. Her characters are from all walks of life in Naples. What they all share is the desire to break out of their conscripted box of duties and expectations and reach up into the universe of possibility, finding new delight in, or needed relief from, their daily existence. 5) The Thing Around Your Neck by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is a collection of short stories that celebrates the determination and endurance of women circumscribed by tradition or poverty or custom to move beyond their defined slots in life and find a new place and a new definition for themselves. By challenging long-held beliefs, these women are able to reveal new possibilities and undeniable truths, bridging the Nigeria they are rooted in and the new world (either literally or figuratively) that will set them free. Follow Nina Sankovitch on Twitter: www.twitter.com/readallday http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nina-sankovitch/great-women-writers-of-20_b_367460.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Nov 23 18:21:55 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:21:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: <746624.99286.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> <746624.99286.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0B1913.9030209@nut-n-but.net> amy king wrote: > > It was started in response to PW's all male list. If one isn't > sexist, then neither is the other. Enjoy! It's more sexist than PW's list because (as a reaction to the PW list and because of its extreme length), it clearly intentionally excludes males as males whereas the PW editors claim sincerely to considered themselves ignoring gender in choosing their six bests. On the other hand, it is also obviously a joke, so not sexist. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Mon Nov 23 19:40:46 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:40:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles In-Reply-To: <4B0B1913.9030209@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC3A7C71FD09F4-3DE0-14DEF@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> <746624.99286.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0B1913.9030209@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <348108.49781.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That clears it up. Thanks for your reductive help, Bob. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 3:21:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Guerilla Girls list of best 2009 poetry titles amy king wrote: > > >>It was started in response to PW's all male list. If one isn't sexist, >then neither is the other. Enjoy! It's more sexist than PW's list because (as a reaction to the PW list and because of its extreme length), it clearly intentionally excludes males as males whereas the PW editors claim sincerely to considered themselves ignoring gender in choosing their six bests. On the other hand, it is also obviously a joke, so not sexist. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Tue Nov 24 11:23:30 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:23:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hamilton Stone Review: Call for work Message-ID: *Hamilton Stone Review* is currently seeking work for its February 2010 issue. Please send contributions (along with short bios) in the form of .doc or .rtf attachments as well as (to be on the safe side) in the body of your message. And please be sure to include ?HSR20 submission from [your name]? in your subject line. For fiction, send your contribution to Lynda Schor at lynda.schor at gmail.com. For nonfiction, send your contribution to Reamy Jansen at reamyjj at gmail.com . For poetry, send your contribution to Roger Mitchell at hsrpoetryroger at gmail.com . And, if you will, pass this notice along. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 24 08:08:12 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:08:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just like one of Philip Dick's short stories Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911240508s24dab995nfb21efb776b80581@mail.gmail.com> Francisco said he never saw the signs. He lost sense of time. He was prepared, he said, to remain in the subway system forever. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/nyregion/24runaway.html?hp -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Mon Nov 23 12:11:14 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:11:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrenaline Poets--What Do You Get From Them? In-Reply-To: <4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70911220855s3afc2f34g7670ee75505c8959@mail.gmail.c om> <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8DB0E@URANIUM.ripon.college> <4B0AA802.1090505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B0AC232.6080904@opus40.org> I would agree with Bob here -- there are poets who do things with words that I often can't even exactly describe, but who send me on a search for my own things. Ashbery is one. Surprisingly perhaps, since I can't imagine many people would use him for adrenaline, Strand is another. Bob Grumman wrote: > A poet who gives me an adrenaline boost usually does it by using some > technique I've never used and think has potential. Only rarely will a > poet treat some subject that makes me want to treat the same subject > or a related one. I'm curious how other poets use the poetry that > influences them. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames Tue Nov 24 15:04:09 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:04:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Costa Poetry Award nominees Message-ID: <8CC3B586B71058D-2F70-14C2E@webmail-m028.sysops.aol.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/6645310/Clive-James-nominated-for-Costa-book-award.html Despite first having his verse published more than half a century ago, James, 71, has never been formally recognised for his poetry in Britain. His third anthology, Angels of Elsinore, is competing for the 2009 Costa Poetry Award against collections by Christopher Reid, who edited Letters of Ted Hughes in 2007, South African Katharine Kilalea and Ruth Padel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Tue Nov 24 15:14:51 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:14:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cattulus quoting hedge fund manager Message-ID: <8CC3B59E99CA76D-2F70-14FC8@webmail-m028.sysops.aol.com> City boss 'shocked woman with vile email? quoting Latin poet Mark Lowe, a multi-millionaire financier at the centre of a sex discrimination case, sent a ?vile? email to a young woman seeking work experience in which he quoted a first century Latin poet, a tribunal has heard http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6639390/City-boss-shocked-woman-with-vile-email-quoting-Latin-poet.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 25 14:15:24 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:15:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elmslie's Warhol recovered Message-ID: <8CC3C1AC66E9732-3100-1E521@webmail-d081.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/11/25/2009-11-25_pulitzer_kin_hit_in_pop_art_scam.html Words never failed poet Kenward Elmslie, but his driver apparently did. Cops say former chauffeur James Biear ripped off the 80-year-old grandson of newspaper magnate Joseph Pulitzer, stealing an Andy Warhol painting worth $220,000, a $64,000 sketch and family heirlooms from Elmslie's Greenwich Village home, police said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 25 16:23:21 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:23:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Geoffrey Gatza and his exceptional yearly appointment for Thanksgiving Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911251323t3e309cfax27a1f3bcb3a2864b@mail.gmail.com> Having trouble viewing this email? Click here BlazeVOX [books] *Happy Thanksgiving 2009* *Dear BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK,* Please be our guest to this years Thanksgiving Menu Poem. Our guest this year is C. D. Wright. Grab a seat and unfold your napkin, you're in for a treat :-) *Sincerely,* Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] Thanksgiving 2009 *Thanksgiving Menu Poem : guest of honor C. D. Wright. * [image: tk09]Welcome to the ninth installment of the Thanksgiving Menu Poem. This is a concept poem structured around the thanksgiving meal I would cook for everyone I could invite to honor a great poet. This year, the guest of honor is C. D. Wright. It is very easy to honor C. D. Wright; her poetry moves a culture. Her cool poetic manner of gathering phrases that open into pristine abstractions close in on the unfolding human spirit. In mysterious ways the reader understands more than is spoken. The mind fills in, individually to the reader, the gaps that make the whole construct form. Her work has touched me in wonderful ways. There is a look of emerald wisdom in her eye that makes me believe she could tell us what happens beyond death. But I am glad she has never spoiled that surprise. This year the theme is fun. With the new Obama years I feel like I would like to access the wonder and spectacle of a happy day, and what better feeling than joy for this day of celebration. However, in that ideal of fun I did not want to loose the rigor that goes into this poem series. There is a balance between the work of Wright, the choice of menu and the interplay of poem. I am a trained chef and I have the ability to prepare this meal and if you come over with a few dollars, I'll prepare this for you :-) Be sure to come back next year for David Shapiro as Guest of Honor and for 2011 when we will honor both Paul Hoover and Maxine Chernoff! Come early and stay late :-) Read below or read the PDF HERE Love, Geoffrey Gatza Event Info: Online Now http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm BlazeVOX [books] BlazeVOX [books] presents innovative fictions and wide ranging fields of contemporary poetry. [image: fall09]Be sure to check out our full catalog http://www.blazevox.org/catalog.htm And BlazeVOX 2k9 Fall 2009 http://www.blazevox.org Forward email [image: Safe Unsubscribe] This email was sent to british-poets at jiscmail.ac.uk by editor at blazevox.org. Update Profile/Email Address| Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy . Email Marketing by BlazeVOX [books] | 303 Bedford Ave | Buffalo | NY | 14216 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Thu Nov 26 14:33:41 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:33:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ubuntu, and Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: <8CC3CE67EAF99D9-8CC4-859E@webmail-d013.sysops.aol.com> One of the sayings in our country is Ubuntu - the essence of being human. Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a human being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness. You can't be human all by yourself, and when you have this quality - Ubuntu - you are known for your generosity. We think of ourselves far too frequently as just individuals, separated from one another, whereas you are connected and what you do affects the whole world. When you do well, it spreads out; it is for the whole of humanity. - Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2008 Quote found on Earth & Pragmatism blog... http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Nov 26 15:11:42 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:11:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ubuntu, and Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <8CC3CE67EAF99D9-8CC4-859E@webmail-d013.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC3CE67EAF99D9-8CC4-859E@webmail-d013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Only connect. --E.M. Forster or somebody Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, wrote: > One of the sayings in our country is Ubuntu - the essence of being human. > Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a human > being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness. You can't be > human all by yourself, and when you have this quality - Ubuntu - you are > known for your generosity. > > We think of ourselves far too frequently as just individuals, separated > from one another, whereas you are connected and what you do affects the > whole world. When you do well, it spreads out; it is for the whole of > humanity. > > - Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2008 > Quote found on Earth & Pragmatism blog... > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Nov 26 15:33:09 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:33:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ubuntu, and Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: <8CC3CE67EAF99D9-8CC4-859E@webmail-d013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911261233y195794b4n2d42478bf4e44c7a@mail.gmail.com> Onto the context. --Slanowickz Arthur "We drink directly from the bottle" George Timothy Clooney On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Only connect. > > --E.M. Forster or somebody > > Hal > > "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." > --Robert Ashley > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, wrote: > >> One of the sayings in our country is Ubuntu - the essence of being >> human. Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a >> human being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness. You can't >> be human all by yourself, and when you have this quality - Ubuntu - you are >> known for your generosity. >> >> We think of ourselves far too frequently as just individuals, separated >> from one another, whereas you are connected and what you do affects the >> whole world. When you do well, it spreads out; it is for the whole of >> humanity. >> >> - Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2008 >> Quote found on Earth & Pragmatism blog... >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa Fri Nov 27 03:52:17 2009 From: oedipa (karen) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 00:52:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ubuntu, and Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70911261233y195794b4n2d42478bf4e44c7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC3CE67EAF99D9-8CC4-859E@webmail-d013.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70911261233y195794b4n2d42478bf4e44c7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's also the name for a wicked solid Linux install.... But yeah, the origin isn't lost on me. Happy Thanksgiving. -your resident lurker and occasional participant k On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Onto the context. > > --Slanowickz Arthur > > "We drink directly from the bottle" > George Timothy Clooney > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> Only connect. >> >> --E.M. Forster or somebody >> >> Hal >> >> "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Robert Ashley >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, wrote: >>> >>> One of the sayings in our country is Ubuntu - the essence of being human. >>> Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a human >>> being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness. You can't be >>> human all by yourself, and when you have this quality - Ubuntu - you are >>> known for your generosity. >>> >>> We think of ourselves far too frequently as just individuals, separated >>> from one another, whereas you are connected and what you do affects the >>> whole world. When you do well, it spreads out; it is for the whole of >>> humanity. >>> >>> -?Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2008 >>> Quote found on Earth & Pragmatism blog... >>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k From grahamd Fri Nov 27 17:31:02 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:31:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" Message-ID: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> The Meaning of "It" All poetry is personal. All poetry is experimental poetry. All experiments are failed experiments. The experiment was a success but the surgeon died. All confessional poetry is admissible, the doctor said. The lawyer said he was losing his patience. The defense maintained that it is admissible as evidence but not as sex. The jury debated the meaning of "it." The philosopher debated the meaning of it. The judge threw out the confession, saying confessions are invariably exaggerated. All exaggerations are true. No evidence is confessional. Poetry is evidence of sex. Sex is exaggeration. Confession is to sex as belching is to a fine meal in a friendly home when you are two middle-aged couples who have forgotten their lines. No evidence is required. Sex is not evidence. All sex is personal. All politics is impersonal. Sex is impersonal politics. I'm confessin' that I love you. Do you [word or words missing here] love me too? -- David Lehman. Blog: The Best American Poetry. 11/26/09. http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2009/11/the-meaning-of-it.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Fri Nov 27 19:05:47 2009 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:05:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" In-Reply-To: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> References: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> Has Lehman been reading Halvard Johnson? - Jim On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:31 PM, David Graham wrote: > *The Meaning of "It"* > > > > All poetry is personal. All poetry is experimental poetry. All > experiments are failed experiments. The experiment was a success but the > surgeon died. All confessional poetry is admissible, the doctor said. The > lawyer said he was losing his patience. The defense maintained that it is > admissible as evidence but not as sex. The jury debated the meaning of "it." > The philosopher debated the meaning of it. The judge threw out the > confession, saying confessions are invariably exaggerated. All exaggerations > are true. No evidence is confessional. Poetry is evidence of sex. Sex is > exaggeration. Confession is to sex as belching is to a fine meal in a > friendly home when you are two middle-aged couples who have forgotten their > lines. No evidence is required. Sex is not evidence. All sex is personal. > All politics is impersonal. Sex is impersonal politics. I'm confessin' that > I love you. Do you [word or words missing here] love me too? > > > > --* David Lehman. *Blog: *The Best American Poetry.* 11/26/09. > > > http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2009/11/the-meaning-of-it.html > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Fri Nov 27 19:14:20 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:14:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" In-Reply-To: <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> References: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B106B5C.9010107@opus40.org> Everyone should. James Cervantes wrote: > Has Lehman been reading Halvard Johnson? > > - Jim > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:31 PM, David Graham > wrote: > > *The Meaning of "It"* > > > > All poetry is personal. All poetry is experimental poetry. All > experiments are failed experiments. The experiment was a success > but the surgeon died. All confessional poetry is admissible, the > doctor said. The lawyer said he was losing his patience. The > defense maintained that it is admissible as evidence but not as > sex. The jury debated the meaning of "it." The philosopher debated > the meaning of it. The judge threw out the confession, saying > confessions are invariably exaggerated. All exaggerations are > true. No evidence is confessional. Poetry is evidence of sex. Sex > is exaggeration. Confession is to sex as belching is to a fine > meal in a friendly home when you are two middle-aged couples who > have forgotten their lines. No evidence is required. Sex is not > evidence. All sex is personal. All politics is impersonal. Sex is > impersonal politics. I'm confessin' that I love you. Do you [word > or words missing here] love me too? > > > > --/ David Lehman. /Blog: /The Best American Poetry./ 11/26/09. > > http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2009/11/the-meaning-of-it.html > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard Fri Nov 27 21:18:08 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:18:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" In-Reply-To: <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> References: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Certainly doesn't appear so. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 6:05 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Has Lehman been reading Halvard Johnson? > > - Jim > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:31 PM, David Graham wrote: > >> *The Meaning of "It"* >> >> >> >> All poetry is personal. All poetry is experimental poetry. All >> experiments are failed experiments. The experiment was a success but the >> surgeon died. All confessional poetry is admissible, the doctor said. The >> lawyer said he was losing his patience. The defense maintained that it is >> admissible as evidence but not as sex. The jury debated the meaning of "it." >> The philosopher debated the meaning of it. The judge threw out the >> confession, saying confessions are invariably exaggerated. All exaggerations >> are true. No evidence is confessional. Poetry is evidence of sex. Sex is >> exaggeration. Confession is to sex as belching is to a fine meal in a >> friendly home when you are two middle-aged couples who have forgotten their >> lines. No evidence is required. Sex is not evidence. All sex is personal. >> All politics is impersonal. Sex is impersonal politics. I'm confessin' that >> I love you. Do you [word or words missing here] love me too? >> >> >> >> --* David Lehman. *Blog: *The Best American Poetry.* 11/26/09. >> >> >> http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2009/11/the-meaning-of-it.html >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Fri Nov 27 21:18:46 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:18:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" In-Reply-To: <4B106B5C.9010107@opus40.org> References: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu> <648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com> <4B106B5C.9010107@opus40.org> Message-ID: Now yer talkin', Tad. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 6:14 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Everyone should. > > James Cervantes wrote: > >> Has Lehman been reading Halvard Johnson? >> >> - Jim >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:31 PM, David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu>> wrote: >> >> *The Meaning of "It"* >> >> >> All poetry is personal. All poetry is experimental poetry. All >> experiments are failed experiments. The experiment was a success >> but the surgeon died. All confessional poetry is admissible, the >> doctor said. The lawyer said he was losing his patience. The >> defense maintained that it is admissible as evidence but not as >> sex. The jury debated the meaning of "it." The philosopher debated >> the meaning of it. The judge threw out the confession, saying >> confessions are invariably exaggerated. All exaggerations are >> true. No evidence is confessional. Poetry is evidence of sex. Sex >> is exaggeration. Confession is to sex as belching is to a fine >> meal in a friendly home when you are two middle-aged couples who >> have forgotten their lines. No evidence is required. Sex is not >> evidence. All sex is personal. All politics is impersonal. Sex is >> impersonal politics. I'm confessin' that I love you. Do you [word >> or words missing here] love me too? >> >> >> --/ David Lehman. /Blog: /The Best American Poetry./ 11/26/09. >> >> >> http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2009/11/the-meaning-of-it.html >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Nov 27 21:42:52 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:42:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Meaning of "It" In-Reply-To: References: <2F09D2D0-E329-45CA-B6B7-71ABBBB723C6@ripon.edu><648208b60911271605j35c3d144odcb1d05467f1a181@mail.gmail.com><4B106B5 C.9010107@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4B108E2C.9080709@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Now yer talkin', Tad. > > Hal Well, better than reading Lehman, that's for sure. --Bob From anny.ballardini Sat Nov 28 17:12:44 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:12:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 132. Every poet is really Narcissus. Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911281412k3a0c1e2brb35da2518145d4f@mail.gmail.com> Some selected thoughts by Karl Wilhelm Friedrich Schlegel, with my wish for a peaceful weekend. 4. There is so much poetry and yet there is nothing more rare than a poem! This is due to the vast quantity of poetical sketches, studies, fragments, tendencies, ruins, and raw materials. 7. My essay on the study of Greek poetry is a mannered prose hymn to the objective quality in poetry. The worst thing about it, it seems to me, is the complete lack of necessary irony; and the best, the confident assumption that poetry is infinitely valuable ?as if that were a settled thing. 12. One of two things is usually lacking in the so-called Philosophy of Art: either philosophy or art. 20. A classical text must never be entirely comprehensible. But those who are cultivated and who cultivate themselves must always want to learn more from it. 21. Just as a child is only a thing which wants to become a human being, so a poem is only a product of nature which wants to become a work of art. 27. The critic is a reader who ruminates. Therefore he ought to have more than one stomach. 28. Feeling (for a particular art, science, person, etc.) is divided spirit, is self-restriction: hence a result of self-creation and self-destruction. 42. [...] Only poetry can also reach the heights of philosophy in this way, and only poetry does not restrict itself to isolated ironical passages, as rhetoric does. There are ancient and modern poems that are pervaded by the divine breath of irony throughout and informed by a truly transcendental buffoonery. Internally: the mood that surveys everything and rises infinitely above all limitations, even above its own art, virtue, or genius; externally, in its execution: the mimic style of an averagely gifted Italian buffo. 44. You should never appeal to the spirit of the ancients as if to an authority. It's a peculiar thing with spirits: they don't let themselves be grabbed by the hand and shown to others. Spirits reveal themselves only to spirits. Probably here too the best and shortest way would be to prove one's possession of the only true belief by doing good works. 47. Whoever desires the infinite doesn't know what he desires. But one can't turn this sentence around. 51. To use wit as an instrument for revenge is as shameful as using art as a means for titillating the senses. 54. There are writers who drink the absolute like water; and books in which even the dogs refer to the infinite. 60. All the classical poetical genres have now become ridiculous in their rigid purity. 65. Poetry is republican speech: a speech which is its own law and end unto itself, and in which all the parts are free citizens and have the right to vote. 68. How many authors are there among writers? Author means creator. 70. People who write books and imagine that their readers are the public and that they must educate it soon arrive at the point not only of despising their so-called public but of hating it. Which leads absolutely nowhere. 73. What is lost in average, good, or even first-rate translations is precisely the best part. 85. Every honest author writes for nobody or everybody. Whoever writes for some particular group does not deserve to be read. 86. The function of criticism, people say, is to educate one's readers! Whoever wants to be educated, let him educate himself. This is rude: but it can't be helped. 91. The ancients are not the Jews, Christians, or English of poetry. They are not an arbitrarily chosen artistic people of God; nor do they have the only true saving aesthetic faith; nor do they have a monopoly on poetry. 98. The following are universally valid and fundamental laws of written communication: (i) one should have something to communicate; (2) one should have somebody to whom one wants to communicate it; (3) one should really be able to communicate it and share it with somebody, not simply express oneself. Otherwise it would be wiser to keep silent. 100. The poetry of one writer is termed philosophical, of another philological, of a third, rhetorical, etc. But what then is poetical poetry? 108. Beautiful is what is at once charming and sublime. 115. That the nobility of patriotic hymns is not desecrated by being well paid for is proved by the Greeks and Pindar. But that money alone isn't enough is shown by the English, who have tried to imitate the ancients in this respect at any rate. So that beauty can't really be bought and sold in England, even if virtue can. 121. An idea is a concept perfected to the point of irony, an absolute synthesis of absolute antitheses, the continual self-creating interchange of two conflicting thoughts. An ideal is at once idea and fact.[...] 123. Isn't poetry the noblest and worthiest of the arts for this, among other reasons: that in it alone drama becomes possible? 128. Nothing is more pitiful than to sell oneself to the devil for nothing; for example, to write lascivious poems that aren't even very good. 132. Every poet is really Narcissus. [AW] 145. Considered as a poet, Homer is very moral because he is so natural and yet so poetical. But as a moralist, as the ancients often viewed him, despite the protestations of older and better philosophers, he is for that very reason quite immoral. 150. Tacitus's Agricola is a classically magnificent, historical canonization of a consular economist. According to the way of thinking that predominates in the book, man's greatest mission is to triumph by permission of the emperor. 152. Cicero was a great virtuoso of urbanity who wanted to be an orator, and, yes, even a philosopher, and who could have been a very brilliant antiquarian, man of letters, and polyhistorian of old Roman virtue and old Roman festivity. 156. Comic wit is a mixture of epic and iambic. Aristophanes is simultaneously Homer and Archilochus. 157. Ovid is in many ways similar to Euripides. The same power to move, the same rhetorical brilliance and often inopportune ingenuity, the same dawdling fullness, vanity, and thinness. 158. The best in Martial is what looks like Catullus. 162. In investigating ancient Greek mythology, hasn't too little attention been paid to the human instinct for making analogies and antitheses? The Homeric world of gods is a simple variation of the Homeric world of men, while the Hesiodic world, lacking the principle of heroic contrast, splits up into several opposing races of gods. In that old remark of Aristotle that one gets to know people through their gods, one finds not only the self-illuminating subjectivity of all theology, but also the more incomprehensible innate spiritual dualism of man. 167. Almost all criticisms of art are too general or too specific. The critics should look for the golden mean here, in their own productions, and not in the works of the poets. 169. Proving things a priori conveys a blissful tranquillity, whereas observation always remains something partial and incomplete. Aristotle made the world as round as a ball by pure abstraction: he didn't leave the slightest corner sticking out or in. For the same reason he also drew the comets into the atmosphere of the earth and made short shrift of the true solar systems of the Pythagoreans. How long will our astronomers, looking through Herschelian telescopes, have to labor before returning to so definitely clear and spherical a view of the world? [AW] 172. One can say that it's a distinguishing mark of poetical genius to know a great deal more than he knows he knows. [AW] 173. There's nothing ornamental about the style of the real poet: everything is a necessary hieroglyph. [AW] 174. Poetry is music for the inner ear, and painting for the inner eye; but faint music, evanescent painting. [AW] 175. Some people prefer to look at paintings with closed eyes, so as not to disturb their imagination. [AW] 178. If any work of German painting is worthy of being displayed in the forecourt of Raphael's temple, then certainly Albrecht Diirer and Holbein would be much closer to the inner sanctum than the scholarly Mengs.[AW] 179. Don't criticize the limited artistic taste of the Dutch. In the first place, they know exactly what they want. Secondly, they have created their own genres for themselves. Can either of these statements be made about the dilettantism of the English? 180. Greek sculpture is extremely modest wherever the purity of the sublime is concerned. In the nude figures of gods and heroes, for example, earthly necessity is suggested in only the most discreet way. But it is, of course, incapable of false delicacy and therefore displays the bestial lusts of the satyrs without any kind of concealment. Everything must remain true to its kind. Because of their shapes, these untamable creatures were outcasts from humanity to begin with. Similarly it was perhaps not merely a sensual but a moral refinement that created the hermaphrodites. Since sensuality had somehow happened to move off in that direction, people imagined specific beings originally created for the purpose. [AW] 182. To have a Diderot describe an art exhibition for you is a truly imperial luxury. [AW] 183. Hogarth painted ugliness and wrote about beauty. [AW] 185. The thing itself can make us forget about its size: it wasn't felt to be improper that Olympian Jove couldn't stand up because he would have smashed the roof in; and Hercules carved on a stone still appears to be superhumanly large. Only dimensions that are scaled down may be deceptive. When something is ordinary, a colossal treatment only serves, as it were, to multiply its ordinariness. [AW] 187. No medicine is more powerful against base lust than the worship of beauty. Hence all higher sculpture is chaste, no matter what the subject; it purifies the senses, as tragedy, according to Aristotle, purifies the passions. Its chance effects are irrelevant in this respect, because even a Vestal virgin can arouse lust in filthy souls. [AW] 190. Nature at its flattest and most monotonous is the best teacher of a landscape painter. Consider the wealth of Dutch art that comes under this heading. Poverty makes one thrifty: there comes from it a sense of frugality that is gladdened by even the slightest hint of higher life in nature. When later during his travels the artist gets to know romantic scenes, they make an even greater impression on him. The imagination too has its antitheses: the greatest painter of horrific wastelands, Salvator Rosa, was born in Naples. [AW] 194. To prove that ancient coins are genuine, numismatists look for socalled noble rust [verd-antique]. The art of counterfeiting has managed to imitate everything except this minting of time. There's also noble rust on people, heroes, philosophers, poets. Miiller is a superb numismatist of humanity. [AW] 205. They have a habit of calling themselves Criticism. They write coldly, superficially, pretentiously, and beyond all measure vapidly. Nature, feeling, nobility, and greatness of spirit simply don't exist for them, and yet they act as if they could summon these things to appear before their judgment-stools. Imitations of the outdated French fashion of society verses are the furthest reaches of their lukewarm admiration. For them correctness is equivalent to virtue. Taste is their idol: a fetish that can only be worshipped joylessly. Who doesn't recognize in this portrait the priests of the temple of belles lettres who have the same sex as those of Cybele? [AW] 206. A fragment, like a miniature work of art, has to be entirely isolated from the surrounding world and be complete in itself like a porcupine. 211. To disrespect the masses is moral; to honor them, lawful. 212. Perhaps no people deserves freedom, but that is a matter for the forum dei. 220. [...] Of course, philosophy will only be healthy when it no longer expects and counts on getting brilliant ideas, when it's able to make continuous progress, relying, naturally, on enthusiastic energy and brilliant art. but also on a sure method. [...] 238. There is a kind of poetry whose essence lies in the relation between ideal and real, and which therefore, by analogy to philosophical jargon, should be called transcendental poetry. It begins as satire in the absolute difference of ideal and real, hovers in between as elegy, and ends as idyll with the absolute identity of the two. But just as we wouldn't think much of an uncritical transcendental philosophy that doesn't represent the producer along with the product and contain at the same time within the system of transcendental thoughts a description of transcendental thinking: so too this sort of poetry should unite the transcendental raw materials and preliminaries of a theory of poetic creativity?often met with in modern poets ?with the artistic reflection and beautiful selfmirroring that is present in Pindar, in the lyric fragments of the Greeks, in the classical elegy, and, among the moderns, in Goethe. In all its descriptions, this poetry should describe itself, and always be simultaneously poetry and the poetry of poetry. 239. The fondness of Alexandrian and Roman poets for difficult and unpoetical themes is really a result of their grand conception that all things are subject matter for poetry, though this is something that was by no means a conscious artistic intention, but a historical tendency of their works. And behind the confusion of all the artistic genres by the poetical eclectics of late antiquity there lies the demand that there should be only One Poetry and One Philosophy. 243. The mirage of a former golden age is one of the greatest obstacles to approximating the golden age that still lies in the future. If there once was a golden age, then it wasn't really golden. Gold can't rust or decompose: it emerges victoriously genuine from all attempts to alloy or decompose it. If the golden age won't last always and forever, then it might as well never begin, since it will only be good for composing elegies about its loss. [AW] 249. The poetizing philosopher, the philosophizing poet, is a prophet. A didactic poem should be and tends to become prophetic. 250. Whoever has imagination, or pathos, or a gift for mimicry ought to be able to learn poetry like any other mechanical art. Imagination consists of both enthusiasm and invention; pathos, of soul and passion; and mimicry, of penetration and expression. 252. A real aesthetic theory of poetry would begin with the absolute ntithesis *of *the eternally unbridgeable gulf between art and raw beauty. It would describe their struggle and conclude with the perfect harmony of artistic and natural poetry. This is to be found only among the ancients and would in itself constitute nothing but a more elevated history of the spirit of classical poetry. But a philosophy of poetry as such would begin with the independence of beauty, with the proposition that beauty is and should be distinct from truth and morality, and that it has the same rights as these: something that?for those who are able to understand it at all?follows from the proposition 1 = 1. It would waver between the union and the division of philosophy and poetry, between poetry and practice, poetry as such and the genres and kinds of poetry; and it would conclude with their complete union. Its beginning would provide the principles of pure poetics; its middle the theory of the particular, characteristically modern types of poetry: the didactic, the musical, the rhetorical in a higher sense, etc. The keystone would be a philosophy of the novel, the rough outlines of which are contained in Plato's political theory. Of course, to the ephemeral, unenthusiastic dilettantes, who are ignorant of the best poets of all types, this kind of poetics would seem very much like a book of trigonometry to a child who just wants to draw pictures. Only a man who knows or possesses a subject can make use of the philosophy of that subject; only he will be able to understand what that philosophy means and what it's attempting to do. But philosophy can't inoculate someone with experience and sense, or pull them out of a hat ?and it shouldn't want to do so. To those who knew it already, philosophy of course brings nothing new; but only through it does it become knowledge and thereby assume a new form. 253. In the nobler and more original sense of the word correct? meaning a conscious main and subordinate development of the inmost and most minute aspects of a work in line with the spirit of the whole, the practical reflection of the artist?there probably is no modern poet more correct than Shakespeare. Similarly, he is also systematic as no other poet is: sometimes because of those antitheses that bring into picturesque contrast individuals, masses, even worlds; sometimes through musical symmetry on the same great scale, through gigantic repetitions and refrains; often by a parody of the letter and an irony on the spirit of romantic drama; and always through the most sublime and complete individuality and the most variegated portrayal of that individuality, uniting all the degrees of poetry, from the most carnal imitation to the most spiritual characterization. 255. The more poetry becomes science, the more it also becomes art. If poetry is to become art, if the artist is to have a thorough understanding and knowledge of his ends and means, his difficulties and his subjects, then the poet will have to philosophize about his art. If he is to be more than a mere contriver and artisan, if he is to be an expert in his field and understand his fellow citizens in the kingdom of art, then he will have to become a philologist as well. 256. The basic error of sophistic aesthetics is to consider beauty merely as something given, as a psychological phenomenon. Of course, beauty isn't simply the empty thought of something that should be created, but at the same time the thing itself, one of the human spirit's original ways of acting: not simply a necessary fiction, but also a fact, that is, an eternally transcendental one. 259. A. You say that fragments are the real form of universal philosophy. The form is irrelevant. But what can such fragments do and be for the greatest and most serious concern of humanity, for the perfection of knowledge? B. Nothing but a Lessingean salt against spiritual sloth, perhaps a cynical *lanx satura *in the style of old Lucilius or Horace, or even the *fermenta cognitionis* *for a critical philosophy, marginal glosses to the text of the age. 262. Every good human being is always progressively becoming God. To become God, to be human, to cultivate oneself are all expressions that mean the same thing. 283. Whoever seeks will doubt. But a genius discloses unabashedly and confidently what he sees going on in himself, because he isn't embarrassed to describe himself and so in turn his description isn't embarrassed by him. On the contrary, his perception and the thing perceived seem to harmonize and unite freely into a single work. When we speak of the outer world, when we describe real objects, then we act as the genius does. Without genius none of us would even exist at all. Genius is necessary for all things. But what is usually called genius, is the genius of genius. [N] 308. The thinker needs precisely the same sort of light as the painter: bright, without direct sunshine or blinding reflections, and, wherever possible, falling straight down from above. 325. Just as Simonides called poetry a talking picture, and painting a mute poem, so might one say that history is philosophy in the state of becoming, and philosophy completed history. But Apollo, who neither speaks nor keeps silent but intimates, no longer is worshipped; and wherever a Muse shows herself, people immediately want to carry her off to be cross-examined. 330. Many people have spirit or feeling or imagination. But because singly these qualities can only manifest themselves as fleeting, airy shapes, nature has taken care to bond them chemically to some common earthly matter. To discover this bond is the unremitting task of those who have the greatest capacity for sympathy, but it requires a great deal of practice in intellectual chemistry as well. The man who could discover an infallible reagent for every beautiful quality in human nature would reveal to us a new world. As in the vision of the prophet, the endless field of broken and dismembered humanity would suddenly spring into life. [S] from *Philosophical Fragments *by Friedrich Schlegel, translated by Peter Firchow, Minneapolis, London, University of Minnesota Press, 1971. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sat Nov 28 18:25:48 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:25:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] 132. Every poet is really Narcissus. Message-ID: If memory serves, I once wrote a poem about this. Annie can tell you where to find excerpts. Great weekend! I caught a fish! I shall eat it soon! Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Nov 28 19:06:03 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:06:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review at my Blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B11BAEB.70309@nut-n-but.net> Poeticks.com is where. JoAnne Growney's poetry is what I review. It's the kind of poetry I'm supposed to be denouncing every chance I get, but I review it very favorably. --Bob From anny.ballardini Sun Nov 29 03:34:11 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:34:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 132. Every poet is really Narcissus. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911290034w763aae66k57909d32323e30ae@mail.gmail.com> And it will be a great poem forever, From The Narcissiad: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=185 You can find your page on the main index under Gwynn, R.S.: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content and please, my name is Anny, thank you, Anny On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:25 AM, wrote: > If memory serves, I once wrote a poem about this. Annie can tell you where > to find excerpts. > > Great weekend! I caught a fish! I shall eat it soon! > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afilreis Sun Nov 29 13:38:05 2009 From: afilreis (Al Filreis) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:38:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] having trouble posting to this list Message-ID: <00C36D17-55A9-4598-9534-739CC8377FA4@writing.upenn.edu> Dear New Poetry friends: I'm still having trouble posting to this listserv. - Al Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania on the web: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis blog: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/blog PoemTalk: http://www.poemtalk.org get your daily Al: http://bit.ly/1UCfRp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Nov 29 13:41:32 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:41:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] having trouble posting to this list In-Reply-To: <00C36D17-55A9-4598-9534-739CC8377FA4@writing.upenn.edu> References: <00C36D17-55A9-4598-9534-739CC8377FA4@writing.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911291041u29ae7f9bs95d0ce1328f3cafb@mail.gmail.com> I received your mail. If this can help. Best wishes, Anny On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Al Filreis wrote: > Dear New Poetry friends: > > I'm still having trouble posting to this listserv. > > - Al > > Al Filreis > Kelly Professor > Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House > Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing > University of Pennsylvania > > on the web: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > blog: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/blog > PoemTalk: http://www.poemtalk.org > get your daily Al: http://bit.ly/1UCfRp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Mon Nov 30 11:43:29 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:43:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems Message-ID: For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Nov 30 11:52:23 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:52:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Prime example: Ron Silliman's "Sunset Debris" in *The Age of Huts*. Too long to read in its entirety, but reading several pages will have them in stitches. Guaranteed. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:43 AM, David Graham wrote: > For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read > some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it > might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around > posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention > "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? > > I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've > forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb Mon Nov 30 12:00:38 2009 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:00:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC3FF5C667FAAB-216C-24CAE@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> Hi Merwin has the poem, "Modern" where each line is a question: Are you modern is the first tree that comes to mind modern does it have modern leaves Millicent Presale for my book Woman on a Shaky Bridge closes soon! Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:43 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Nov 30 12:06:30 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:06:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, don't forget *Hamlet. *Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:43 AM, David Graham wrote: > For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read > some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it > might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around > posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention > "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? > > I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've > forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 30 12:11:22 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:11:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911300911m8f6c4b7j3ccb717408d8708e@mail.gmail.com> Exactly, especially rhetorical questions. On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Oh, don't forget *Hamlet. > > * > Hal > > "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." > --Robert Ashley > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:43 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read >> some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it >> might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around >> posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention >> "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? >> >> I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've >> forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/ >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 Mon Nov 30 12:19:55 2009 From: opus40-01 (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:19:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems Message-ID: <380-2200911130171955906@M2W144.mail2web.com> Nancy Willard's "Questions my Son Asked Me, Answers I Never Gave Him" is a great one that doesn't quite fit your category, but might be worth tossing into the mix. What about "Blowing in the Wind"? Original Message: ----------------- From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:43:29 -0600 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From rwilsnac Mon Nov 30 13:40:49 2009 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:40:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: <380-2200911130171955906@M2W144.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200911130171955906@M2W144.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <4B1411B1.9030104@medicine.nodak.edu> Original Message: > ----------------- > From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu > Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:43:29 -0600 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems > > > For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some > excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it might > be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but > not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School > Children"--but what are some other favorites? > > I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've > forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. A famous prose-poem is Thomas Wolfe's opening words of _Look Homeward, Angel_/: "...a stone, a leaf, an unfound door; of a stone, a leaf, a door. And of all the forgotten faces. Naked and alone we came into exile. In her dark womb we did not know our mother's face; from the prison of her flesh we come into the unspeakable and incommunicable prison of this earth. Which of us has known his brother? Which of us has looked into his father's heart? Which of us has not remained forever prison-pent? Which of us is not forever a stranger and alone? O waste of loss, in the hot mazes, lost, among bright stars on this most weary unbright cinder, lost! Remembering speechlessly we seek the great forgotten language, the lost lane-end into heaven, a stone, a leaf, an unfound door. Where? When? O lost, and by the wind grieved, ghost, come back again." /Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 30 15:15:52 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:15:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] portraits of power Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911301215u57191829l125abab1d6f22749@mail.gmail.com> here they all are, one after the other, comment by the photographer: http://www.newyorker.com/online/multimedia/2009/12/07/091207_audioslideshow_platon platon by the way. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Nov 30 15:23:07 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:23:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from yesterday's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911301223g17531d24od768e8ea7c48bb78@mail.gmail.com> Excerpt by Mark Twain After all these years I can picture that old time to myself now, just as it was then: the white town drowsing in the sunshine of a summer's morning; the streets empty, or pretty nearly so; one or two clerks in front of the Water Street stores, with their splint-bottomed chairs tilted back against the wall, chins on breasts, hats slouched over their faces, asleep ? with shingle-shavings enough around to show what broke them down; a sow and litter of pigs loafing along the sidewalk, doing a good business in water-melon rinds and seeds; two or three lonely little freight piles scattered about the "levee;" a pile of "skids" on the slope of the stone-paved wharf, and the fragrant town drunkard asleep in the shadow of them; two or three wood flats at the head of the wharf, but nobody to listen to the peaceful lapping of the wavelets against them; the great Mississippi, the majestic, the magnificent Mississippi, rolling its mile-wide tide along, shining in the sun; the dense forest away on the other side; the "point" above town, and the "point" below, bounding the river-glimpse and turning it into a sort of sea, and withal a very still and brilliant and lonely one. Presently a film of dark smoke appears above one of those remote "points;" instantly a negro drayman, famous for his quick eye and prodigious voice, lifts up the cry, "S-t-e-a-m-boat a-comin'!" and the scene changes! The town drunkard stirs, the clerks wake up, a furious clatter of drays follows, every house and store pours out a human contribution, and all in a twinkling the dead town is alive and moving. Excerpt from *Life on the Mississippi* by Mark Twain, ? 1883 by Samuel Clemens. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afilreis Mon Nov 30 16:59:17 2009 From: afilreis (Al Filreis) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:59:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] PoemTalk on Vachel Lindsay Message-ID: <80468665-7847-4FD7-A2C2-05B18903BC31@writing.upenn.edu> Today we are releasing PoemTalk episode #26, a discussion of Vachel Lindsay's "The Congo" (part one) with Aldon Neilsen, Michelle Taransky and Charles Bernstein: http://www.poemtalk.org Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania on the web: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis blog: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/blog PoemTalk: http://www.poemtalk.org get your daily Al: http://bit.ly/1UCfRp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian_tuney Mon Nov 30 17:30:18 2009 From: brian_tuney (Brian Hawkins) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:30:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <518926.6683.qm@web34205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Two more Yeatses spring to mind: the one that ends "What would they say / did their Catullus walk that way?" and the magnificent No Second Troy ending "Was there another Troy for her to burn?" Brian --- On Tue, 1/12/09, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems To: "NewPoetry" Received: Tuesday, 1 December, 2009, 3:43 AM Last minute query on question poems For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some ?excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* ?and it occurred to me it might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but not answering--questions. ?Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________________________________________ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb Mon Nov 30 17:52:51 2009 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:52:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems In-Reply-To: <518926.6683.qm@web34205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC4026FA9124B7-5B4C-443B@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> Here's the text for the Merwin poem (if it's not too late) What is Modern Are you modern is the first tree that comes to mind modern does it have modern leaves who is modern after hours at the glass door of the drug store or within sound of the airport or passing the animal pound where once a week they gas the animals who is modern in bed when was modern born who first was pleased to feel modern who first claimed the word as a possession saying I'm modern as someone might say I'm a champion or I'm famous or even as some would say I'm rich or I love the sound of the clarinet yes so do I do you like classical or modern did modern begin to be modern was there a morning when it was there for the first time completely modern is today modern the modern sun rising over the modern roof of the modern hospital revealing the modern water tanks and aerials of the modern horizon and modern humans one after the other solitary and without speaking buying the morning paper on the way to work W.S. Merwin from Opening the Hand 1983 (Copper Canyon Press) Millicent Hurry, presale for my poetry book Woman on a Shaky Bridge ends Dec. 6th!!! Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm -----Original Message----- From: Brian Hawkins To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems Two more Yeatses spring to mind: the one that ends "What would they say / did their Catullus walk that way?" and the magnificent No Second Troy ending "Was there another Troy for her to burn?" Brian --- On Tue, 1/12/09, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems To: "NewPoetry" Received: Tuesday, 1 December, 2009, 3:43 AM For an exercise in my poetry workshop later today I'm planning to read some excerpts from Neruda's *Book of Questions,* and it occurred to me it might be nice to take a few other examples of poems that center around posing--but not answering--questions. Of course I'm planning to mention "Among School Children"--but what are some other favorites? I've no doubt that the assembled experts here can remind me of some I've forgotten, not to mention introducing me to ones I don't know. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes Mon Nov 30 18:18:26 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:18:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Last minute query on question poems Message-ID: Here's one my wife sent me today. ?Questionnaire? (a poem by Wendell Berry) 1. How much poison are you willing to eat for the success of the free market and global trade? Please name your preferred poisons. 2. For the sake of goodness, how much evil are you willing to do? Fill in the following blanks with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred. 3. What sacrifices are you prepared to make for culture and civilization? Please list the monuments, shrines, and works of art you would most willingly destroy. 4. In the name of patriotism and the flag, how much of our beloved land are you willing to desecrate? List in the following spaces the mountains, rivers, towns, farms you could most readily do without. 5. State briefly the ideas, ideals, or hopes, the energy sources, the kinds of security, for which you would kill a child. Name, please, the children whom you would be willing to kill. ----Wendell Berry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Mon Nov 30 21:18:27 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:18:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Philosophy of Wallace Stevens talk, Dec. 3, 1pm, Tunxis CC In-Reply-To: <8CC3F817DB4B369-11D8-D6AD@webmail-m084.sysops.aol.com> References: <70b6586e0911230233n7a710ca6s237884887fb583b6@mail.gmail.com> <8CC3F817DB4B369-11D8-D6AD@webmail-m084.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC4043B38A1D52-4F40-10558@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> The Tunxis Humanities Department and Tunxis Philosophy Club Present: Proof & Possibility A Series of Talks in Philosophy and the History of Ideas Thursday, Dec. 3rd @ 1p.m. Founders Hall Part 1: Philosophy of the Supreme Fiction: In and Beyond the Metaphysics of Wallace Stevens Hartford's most noted poet and once one of its more prominent insurance executives, Wallace Stevens, has often been studied for the philosophical character of his work. Considered a true American heir to the English Romantic poets, Stevens was also influenced by philosophers as diverse as Nietzsche and such pillars of American pragmatism as Ralph Waldo Emerson and George Santayana. So invested, in fact, is Stevens's verse in the problems of epistemology?the study of knowledge and how, to what extent and how validly we can obtain it?and metaphysics ?the study of first principles and what is finally most real?that his poetic output has been freshly examined in the light of current philosophical trends with each new decade. However, the unique way that Stevens understood the interaction between the imagination and reality stubbornly resists dissection by logicians or diehard rationalists. In discussing what might be called his metaphysics?what he named "a supreme fiction"?Stevens was reluctant to limit it to poetry. However, even as he set out to address its qualities ?"It Must Be Abstract," "It Must Change," and "It Must Give Pleasure"?he offered an insurance-style disclaimer: "As soon as I start to rationalize, I lose the poetry of the idea." Come join James Finnegan, poet, thinker, founder of The Friends and Enemies of Wallace Stevens organization, and insurance executive, for a fascinating hour and a half?over a provided light lunch?to explore the common ground of poetry and philosophy, with Hartford's local treasure Stevens as our guide and muse. James Finnegan?s poems have appeared in Ploughshares, Poetry East, The Southern Review, The Virginia Quarterly Review and other literary magazines. With Dennis Barone he edited Visiting Wallace: Poems Inspired by the Life and Work of Wallace Stevens (U. of Iowa Press, 2009). He currently serves as president of The Friends & Enemies of Wallace Stevens, a Hartford area arts organization that supports the cultural legacy of Wallace Stevens and promotes poetry in the community. He founded an internet discussion listserv called the NewPoetry List, and he blogs aphoristic ars poetica at usrprache (http://ursprache.blogspot.com/). Mr. Finnegan works in the field of financial institutions risk management for Lee & Mason Financial Services, Inc. *UPCOMING* Thursday, February 18th ? Part 2 Don't Fear the Future: Democratic Transhumanism and Empowerment through Technology James T. Hughes, PhD, bioethicist and sociologist at Trinity College and Executive Director of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET) Questions? Contact Jesse Abbot jabbot at txcc.commnet.edu ? 860.255.3623 http://tunxis.commnet.edu/ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ciccariello Sun Nov 15 13:47:03 2009 From: ciccariello (Peter) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:47:03 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fascinating video of "A Book About Death" Message-ID: <8f3fdbad0911151218r23bc0813rdb86b3abcecad2c0@mail.gmail.com> Amazing film/slide show by Brazilian artist, Angela Ferrara, for "A Book About Death" Conceived by Matthew Rose. http://abookaboutdeath.blogspot.com/ -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ http://uncommonvision.blogspot.com/ http://poemsfromprovidence.blogspot.com/ http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ You can find my art and writing updates on Twitter https://twitter.com/ciccariello -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions Mon Nov 2 16:32:41 2009 From: elemenope_productions (R Dillon) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:32:41 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of Whitman's Halloween Country In-Reply-To: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Found out there in the Heartland Speedicut writes: Saturday, October, 31, 2009 4:40 PM Oh North Dakota If parking your car for the night involves an extension cord You might live in North Dakota If you have ever refused to buy something because it's "too spendy", You might live in North Dakota If your local Dairy Queen is closed from November through March, You might live in North Dakota. If someone in a store offers you assistance, and they don't work there, You might live in North Dakota. If you think that ketchup is a little too spicy, You might live in North Dakota. If you see people wearing hunting clothes at social events, You might live in North Dakota. If you design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit, You might live in North Dakota. If you know all 4 seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter and road construction, you might live in North Dakota. If you consider Fargo exotic, You might live in North Dakota. _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmetres Tue Nov 3 12:09:15 2009 From: pmetres (Philip Metres) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:09:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] what do you think about this version of Sandburg's "Autumn Harvest"? Message-ID: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32YY2J18eU Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com "Those of us who had imagination circuits built can look in someone's face and see stories there; to everyone else, a face will be just a face." Kurt Vonnegut "...it doesn't matter whether we act or we write--the main thing isn't fame, glamour, or the things I dreamed about, it's knowing how to endure. I know how to shoulder my cross and I have faith. I have faith and it's not so painful for me, and when I think about my calling, I'm not afraid of life." Nina, from Chekhov's "Seagull" From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 12:11:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:11:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of Whitman's Halloween Country In-Reply-To: References: <200910311700.n9VH03QZ002532@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911030911n22a3952fs1831e08bf3d939f7@mail.gmail.com> :-) Richard, I thought of you yesterday. Can you remember the title of a book by W. Burroughs where there is a shooting at the beginning and the protagonist then goes on with his life for the entire book and just around the last page the description of the shooting is repeated and we understand that the protagonist had died right there? I need it for a quotation and I don't have the book here. Thank you, Anny On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:32 PM, R Dillon wrote: > ** > ** > *Found out there in the Heartland* > ** > ** > ** > *Speedicut * writes: > > > > > > Saturday, October, 31, 2009 4:40 PM > Oh North Dakota If parking your car for the night involves an extension > cord You might > live in North Dakota > > If you have ever refused to buy something because it's "too spendy", > You might live in North Dakota > > If your local Dairy Queen is closed from November through March, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If someone in a store offers you assistance, and they don't work there, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If you think that ketchup is a little too spicy, You might live in > North Dakota. > > If you see people wearing hunting clothes at social events, You might > live in North Dakota. > > > If you design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit, You > might live in North Dakota. > > If you know all 4 seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter and road > construction, you might live in North Dakota. > > If you consider Fargo exotic, > You might live in North Dakota. > > ------------------------------ > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 12:14:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:14:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] what do you think about this version of Sandburg's "Autumn Harvest"? In-Reply-To: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> References: <20091103120915.CZA58313@mirapoint.jcu.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911030914x25afd2c9p6e663f4b28310b92@mail.gmail.com> Lovely. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Philip Metres wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32YY2J18eU > > Philip Metres > Associate Professor > Department of English > John Carroll University > 20700 N. Park Blvd > University Heights, OH 44118 > phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) > fax: (216) 397-1723 > http://www.philipmetres.com > http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com > > "Those of us who had imagination circuits built can look in someone's face > and see stories there; to everyone else, a face will be just a face." Kurt > Vonnegut > > "...it doesn't matter whether we act or we write--the main thing isn't > fame, glamour, or the things I dreamed about, it's knowing how to endure. I > know how to shoulder my cross and I have faith. I have faith and it's not > so painful for me, and when I think about my calling, I'm not afraid of > life." Nina, from Chekhov's "Seagull" > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha Tue Nov 3 13:39:30 2009 From: obodooha (Obododimma Oha) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:39:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70910291203i6487f384ka7745d83e5a66976@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Anny. The short essay is now available at http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/Editorial/5476383-184/S(H)IBBOLETH:_Deity_of_deities_.csp The editor, in his wisdom, changed the original title to "Deity of deities." You can also read other essays in my column indicated under "Related Articles" on that page. Regards, Obododimma. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > We'll be waiting to read your work! > Have a nice day you all, beautiful sunshine here... > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> Wonderful! Thanks, Anny. I have just mailed an article to NEXT, a Nigerian >> newspaper in which I have a column called "S(h)ibboleth". The article, >> incidentally, is about the "worship" of the computer and the Web, and does >> make an excursus to how it was in the early days in my country. I will share >> the article with you on Tuesday (when it is published), for the terms of my >> agreement with NEXT forbid publishing my article elsewhere. >> >> >> >> Wishing you and other Netizens a lovely weekend and happy anniversary, >> >> Obododimma. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> to the Internet! >>> 40 years old today, :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>> Giovenale >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >> >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604; >> +234 808 264 8060. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 13:57:33 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:57:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Immortality these days probably has mostly to do with being enshrined in academia. Frost will be around for a long time because so many careers are invested in him and because he's easy for a certain kind of teacher to teach to a certain kind of student. Let me be clear: I like Kyger's poetry, but I don't think it's going to change any lives. I think Ron is way too nice about The Four Quartets, which I reread recently, but Frost I find truly intolerable. "Mending Wall" probably isn't about rural New England rectitude and unfriendliness so much as his neighbor not wanting Frost specifically on his land--the guy had probably read the poems. My feelings about Frost are probably colored by having spent four years living in rural New England, though even as a child I was mystified by his appeal (like every middle class family in America, we had a Frost collection in the house). Frost was a poseur. His experience of rural life didn't begin until he was in his late twenties and was punctuated by years in the UK and years as a professor living in a college town. But he turned himself into the voice of the New England countyside, and honed an image that was less than it seemed. It wouldn't matter if he'd managed to carry it off. His poetry seems to me to reek of insincerity. How could anybody take Stopping By Woods seriously? But hey, we're talking about taste here. Unlike Ron, I don't care much what other people read, though I do tend to ask them why. Best, Mark At 03:25 PM 10/31/2009, you wrote: >Exhibit A: > >"And several of Friedlander?s implicit & >explicit value judgments strike me as perfectly >reasonable ? Four Quartets is an unforgivably >turgid, even stupid piece of writing, Joanne >Kyger?s poetry will prove far 'more lasting' >than that of Robert Frost, Lowell is for the >most part unbearable (and some of Duncan is likewise). . . . " > >Exhibit B, later in the same post: > >"A history of recent writing that is >idiosyncratic to the point of seeming arbitrary >isn?t just to drive on the wrong side of the >road, but to leave the road entirely, plowing >through back yards & fields alike." > >============== > >It's not clear from these snippets, but what Ron >Silliman is getting exercised about is Ben >Friedlander calling Marianne Moore the "center" of Modernism. > >That is not a question that keeps me up nights, >whatever my answer to it might be. But as to >Joanne Kyger's work lasting (or "lasting") >longer than Robert Frost's, well, I'd take that wager. > >The full post is here, under Wednesday 10/28/09: >http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 3 14:02:28 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:02:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote and I like Eliot pretty well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Tue Nov 3 14:08:15 2009 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:08:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I don't care that much about Frost, but he's fun to play with. *Thirteen Variations on a Line by Robert Frost* ?Whose woods these are I think I know.? 1. I think I know whose timberland this is. 2. I know, I think, to whom these woods belong. 3. Betcha I know whose weald that is. 4. According to my mode of thinking, I have pertinent knowledge regarding the identity of the personage yon forest attaches to. 5. My current speculations suggest that I am cognizant of the proprietary state of that particular grove of tall woody plants. 6. That specific clump of potential planks, laths and boards is the property of a human being I have the capability of knowing. 7. The ownership of that forest is known to me. 8. This bosque, the very Such-ness of which now presents itself to me with such immediacy and terror that I stop dead in my tracks to, with all humility, gape open-mouthed at their individual Zusammenkeit, is held, in perpetuity or until hell freezes over, by One whose ownership of them is totally and forever beyond question. 9. The tract of trees in question is legally among the possessions of one whose name is not unknown to me. 10. Ed Becker is the name of the guy who owns this woody acreage, having inherited it from his father, Horace Becker, who bought it off a man named Edwards, whose family lived on it for seven generations prior, the house in which they lived falling into disrepair and local disrepute, gradually succumbing to winter and summer upheavals and falling slowly back into the earth from which nearly three centuries before it had, most laboriously, been raised up. 11. Know I think I are these woods whose. 12. That copse is chattel to a party whose ownership of said copse, withal, is not to be lightly questioned, at least by . . . yr humble servant. 13. Someone I know deludes himself with the idea that he owns this stand, this matrix of mixed growth?elm, oak, fir, maple, birch?and tangles of vine and bush, hospice to squirrel and fox and deer among the larger animals resident here, mouse and vole and termite, among the smaller, leaving yet room for birds, bees, and insects of all stripe, slugs and worms and ants?both red and black? flies, mosquitoes, gnats, down to the smallest of beings breeding in the sheen of moisture lodged however temporarily upon a single fallen leaf. *return to S H A M P O O 13 * ?When a man rides a long time in wild regions he feels the desire for a city.? --Italo Calvino Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:02 PM, wrote: > Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some > teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four > Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote > and I like Eliot pretty well. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 14:18:55 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:18:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some on the list probably know about my discovery of Frost's revised version. He corrected the inversion and the hideous rhyme in the second line (worthy of Edgar Guest), and found the last line he'd been looking for. So, the beginning and the end: I think I know whose woods these are, But they aint here, they're over thar. The woods are silent, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep. I guess I shoulda brung the jeep. He never did figure out what to do with the Grandma Moses stuff in between. I hope this is helpful. Mark Weiss At 02:08 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Oh, I don't care that much about Frost, but he's fun to play with. > >Thirteen Variations on a Line by Robert Frost > > ?Whose woods these are I think I know.? > >1. I think I know whose timberland this is. > >2. I know, I think, to whom these woods belong. > >3. Betcha I know whose weald that is. > >4. According to my mode of thinking, I have pertinent knowledge > regarding the identity of the personage yon forest attaches to. > >5. My current speculations suggest that I am cognizant of > the proprietary state of that > particular grove of tall woody plants. > >6. That specific clump of potential planks, laths and boards > is the property of a human being I > have the capability of knowing. > >7. The ownership of that forest is known to me. > >8. This bosque, the very Such-ness of which now presents itself to > me with such immediacy and terror that I stop dead in my tracks > to, with all humility, gape open-mouthed at their individual > Zusammenkeit, is held, in perpetuity or until hell > freezes over, by One whose ownership of them is totally and > forever beyond question. > >9. The tract of trees in question is legally among the possessions > of one whose name is not unknown to me. > >10. Ed Becker is the name of the guy who owns this woody acreage, > having inherited it from his father, Horace Becker, who bought > it off a man named Edwards, whose family lived on it for > seven generations prior, the house in which they lived falling > into disrepair and local disrepute, gradually succumbing > to winter and summer upheavals and falling slowly > back into the earth from which nearly three centuries before > it had, most laboriously, been raised up. > >11. Know I think I are these woods whose. > >12. That copse is chattel to a party whose ownership of said copse, > withal, is not to be lightly questioned, at least > by . . . yr humble servant. > >13. Someone I know deludes himself with the idea that he owns > this stand, this matrix of mixed growth?elm, oak, fir, > maple, birch?and tangles of vine and bush, hospice > to squirrel and fox and deer among the larger > animals resident here, mouse and vole and termite, among > the smaller, leaving yet room for birds, bees, and insects > of all stripe, slugs and worms and ants?both red and black? > flies, mosquitoes, gnats, down to the smallest > of beings breeding in the sheen > of moisture lodged however > temporarily upon > a single > fallen > leaf. > >return >to S H A M P O O > 13 >?When a man rides a long time in wild >regions he feels the desire for a city.? > --Italo Calvino > > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:02 PM, ><AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote: >Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have >him or as good as some teachers who haven't read >him very carefully think either. As for the Four >Quartets, I think I like them better than almost >anything else Eliot wrote and I like Eliot pretty well. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 14:22:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:22:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70910291203i6487f384ka7745d83e5a66976@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70910300634u88254f7t56cee99491225343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911031122v47217a17ke83a72d77362130@mail.gmail.com> This is a great article! And yes, never talked enough of the wisdom of editors of smaller newspapers or such... Congratulations, I once read that if per chance they were able to bring Leonardo back to life again, he would die right there because he would not have the needed antibodies. And yes, he would be astounded, I think he never thought of a visual singing communicating machine, although he foresaw planes, divers and submarines. But then he was the poet who worked for the Lord and couldn't but comply to the various lords' needs. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Hi Anny. The short essay is now available at > http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/Editorial/5476383-184/S(H)IBBOLETH:_Deity_of_deities_.csp > > > The > editor, in his wisdom, changed the original title to "Deity of deities." > > You can also read other essays in my column indicated under "Related > Articles" on that page. > > Regards, > Obododimma. > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> We'll be waiting to read your work! >> Have a nice day you all, beautiful sunshine here... >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: >> >>> Wonderful! Thanks, Anny. I have just mailed an article to NEXT, a >>> Nigerian newspaper in which I have a column called "S(h)ibboleth". The >>> article, incidentally, is about the "worship" of the computer and the Web, >>> and does make an excursus to how it was in the early days in my country. I >>> will share the article with you on Tuesday (when it is published), for the >>> terms of my agreement with NEXT forbid publishing my article elsewhere. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wishing you and other Netizens a lovely weekend and happy anniversary, >>> >>> Obododimma. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Anny Ballardini < >>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> to the Internet! >>>> 40 years old today, :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Anny Ballardini >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>> star! >>>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>>> Giovenale >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604; >>> +234 808 264 8060. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > http://udude.wordpress.com/ > > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604; > +234 808 264 8060. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Nov 3 14:35:35 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:35:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Claude Levi Strauss Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911031135h7bc5e2b1uf9fbfcab6963977e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/europe/04levistrauss.html?hp 100, still sorry, still this reaches me as a surprise. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 14:49:18 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:49:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly Message-ID: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> For Immediate Release????????????????????????????????????November 2, 2009??Why Weren?t Any Women Invited To?Publishers Weekly?s Weenie Roast? ?Publishers Weekly?recently announced their Best Books Of 2009 list. Of their top ten, chosen by editorial staff, no books written by women were included. Quoted in?The Huffington Post,?PW?confidently admitted that they're ?not the most politically correct" choices. This statement comes in a year in which new books appeared by writers such as?Lorrie Moore,?Margaret Atwood,?Alice Munro,?Mavis Gallant,Rita Dove,?Heather McHugh?and?Alicia Ostriker.???The absence made me nearly speechless.? said writer Cate Marvin, cofounder of the newly launched national literary organization WILLA (Women In Letters And Literary Arts), which, since August, has attracted close to 5400 members on their?Facebook?web page, including many major and emerging women writers. ?It continues to surprise me that?literary editors?are so comfortable with their bias toward male writing, despite the great and obvious contributions that women authors make to our contemporary literary culture.??WILLA?s other cofounder, Erin Belieu, Director Of The?Creative Writing Program?at?Florida State University, asked, ?So is the flipside here that including women authors on the list would just have been an empty, politically correct gesture? When?PW?s editors tell us they?re not worried about ?political correctness,? that?s code for???your concerns as a feminist aren?t legitimate.? They know they?re being blatantly sexist, but it looks like they feel good about that. I, on the other hand, have heard from a?whole lot of people?writers and readers--who don?t feel good about it at all.??PW also did a Top 100 list and, of the authors included, only 29 were women. The WILLA Advisory Board is in the process of putting together a list titled ?Great Books?Published By Women In 2009.? This will be posted to the organization?s Facebook page and website. A WILLA Wiki has also been started for people to share their nominations for?Great Books?By Women in 2009. Press release to follow.?WILLA was founded to bring increased attention to women?s literary accomplishments and to question the American literary establishment?s historical slow-footedness in recognizing and rewarding women writer?s achievements. WILLA is about to launch their website and is in the process of planning their first national conference to be held next year.?(Note: until recently, WILLA went under the acronym WILA, with one ?L.? If you?re interested in the organization, please?Google?WILA with one ?L? to see background on how this group was originally formed.)?For more information contact:?Erin Belieuebelieu at fsu.edu(850) 559-4030?Cate Marvincatemarvin at gmail.com(718) 749-8613 _______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Nov 3 18:15:00 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:15:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: In a message dated 11/3/2009 1:03:08 PM Central Standard Time, AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > > > Frost is not nearly as bad as Mark would have him or as good as some > teachers who haven't read him very carefully think either. As for the Four > Quartets, I think I like them better than almost anything else Eliot wrote and I > like Eliot pretty well. > I'd say that anyone who's read "A Servant to Servants" should know that Frost's the real thing. That one and about fifty others. He was personally something of a jerk, but what poet isn't? I, too, dislike it (The Four Quartets), which rather states the obvious for me anyway. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:40:49 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:40:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Your bringing up (I think it was you) the 4 quartets got me to start rereading them (or "it?"), and I found what I read much better than I remembered it as being, Mark. I found it excellent. Got sidetracked, left it, then forgot to come back. (I do that all the time with all kinds of reading material, but will go back to Eliot soon.) On the other hand, I continue to consider "Stopping by the Woods" one of the best poems ever by anybody, and probably better than the 4 quartets. But I'm a sucker for poems about snow. I rate Emerson's about the "frolic architecture of the snow" very high, too. --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:47:07 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:47:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 19:59:48 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:59:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF0D204.6090309@nut-n-but.net> Amazing, but to me a good thing: a list no one at PW felt compelled to put a book by a woman on. Why must it be assumed that the choices were sexist, that the editorial staff didn't sincerely pick the books they thought were the ten best? Why in the world would they be sexist? Out of curiosity: how many women are on the PW editorial staff? I would admit that it seems odd to me that such a list would have nothing by a woman on it, but I once flipped a coin that came up heads fourteen times in a row. Bad Bob, getting himself stupidly in trouble again--but, hey, maybe now PW's list will have something by ME on it! From junction Tue Nov 3 19:58:45 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:58:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Whittier's "Snowbound"? At 07:40 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Your bringing up (I think it was you) the 4 quartets got me to start >rereading them (or "it?"), and I found what I read much better than >I remembered it as being, Mark. I found it excellent. Got >sidetracked, left it, then forgot to come back. (I do that all the >time with all kinds of reading material, but will go back to Eliot >soon.) On the other hand, I continue to consider "Stopping by the >Woods" one of the best poems ever by anybody, and probably better >than the 4 quartets. >But I'm a sucker for poems about snow. I rate Emerson's about the >"frolic architecture of the snow" very high, too. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From junction Tue Nov 3 20:00:18 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:00:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Apparently not quite universal. At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, >is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should >think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From mandolin Tue Nov 3 21:03:56 2009 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:03:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.com> Not much is universal, but IMNSHO Frost has no American rivals, and only Yeats in 20th century English. And he's quite disruptive, in his way. The Road Not Taken gets read at way too many commencements - especially considering that he's telling what lies he's going to tell. >From Mending Wall it's the neighbor who gets quoted, but it's clear the poem's speaker has more than doubts about the good neighbor good fences thing. And in Death of the Hired Man, "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, They have to take you in" is spoken in a kind of despairing voice when Frost reads it. True, The Gift Outright sucks on many levels - On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Apparently not quite universal. > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >> >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. ?Someone did! >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" ?Yeeks, all it is, is a >> moment spent watching snow come down. ?Universal, I should think. ?If he was >> faking it, he was Very Odd. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 21:07:28 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:07:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly -- Only Male Content Prized In-Reply-To: <4AF0D204.6090309@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <467981.16901.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Using statistics alone, there should be a high likelihood that half of the selections would be by women since women are certainly writing and getting published. ?But are you saying that the staff only values the writing of men then "naturally"? ?That not one woman wrote a book worthy of a top ten position? ?The *best* writing, according to PW, is only by men. ?That's not sexist? ? The grossest answer is their excuse, that they weren't being "politically correct." Because it would take some sort of false leveling for them to find women's writing to "stand out from the rest," as they put it. ? Upon reviewing the content of these PW "prized" novels, we learn that actually only novels that deal with male protagonists and how men live, fight, grow, are adventurous, are celebrated, etc is really the only stuff that's noteworthy. Let's see: Publishers Weekly?announced their Top 10 picks for 2009. These are the books that they thought "stood out from the rest." PW admits that they're not "the most politically correct" choices -- the list doesn't include any female authors -- but, to the editors, they were the best among the top 100 that they had chosen. You can read their reviews for the books?on their site.We want to know what you think. Is something missing? Do you think this is great, or totally off-base?? The Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science?by Richard Holmes (Pantheon) PRIMARILY ABOUT MALE PROTAGONISTS FOCUSED ON MOSTLY MALE SCIENTISTS: Holmes, author of a much-admired biography of Coleridge, focuses on prominent British scientists of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, including the astronomer William Herschel and his accomplished assistant and sister, Caroline; Humphrey Davy, a leading chemist and amateur poet; and Joseph Banks, whose journal of a youthful voyage to Tahiti was a study in sexual libertinism. Holmes?s biographical approach makes his obsessive protagonists (Davy?s self-experimenting with laughing gas is an epic in itself) the prototypes of the Romantic genius absorbed in a Promethean quest for knowledge.? Await Your Reply?by Dan Chaon (Ballantine) AGAIN, MOSTLY MALE PROTAGONISTS: Eighteen-year-old Lucy Lattimore, her parents dead, flees her stifling hometown with charismatic high school teacher George Orson, soon to find herself enmeshed in a dangerous embezzling scheme. Meanwhile, Miles Chesire is searching for his unstable twin brother, Hayden, a man with many personas who?s been missing for 10 years and is possibly responsible for the house fire that killed their mother. Ryan Schuyler is running identity-theft scams for his birth father, Jay Kozelek, after dropping out of college to reconnect with him, dazed and confused after learning he was raised thinking his father was his uncle.? Big Machine?by Victor LaValle (Spiegel & Grau) AGAIN, THE MALE REALITY WINS:Gritty, mostly honest-hearted ex-heroin addict protagonist Ricky Rice takes a chance on an anonymous note delivered to him at the cruddy upstate New York bus depot where he works as a porter.? Cheever: A Life?by Blake Bailey (Knopf) ALL ABOUT A MAN: In this overlong but always entertaining biography, composed with a novelist?s eye, Bailey, biographer of Richard Yates and editor of two volumes of Cheever?s work for Library of America (also due in March), was given access to unpublished portions of Cheever?s famous journals and to family members and friends. A Fiery Peace in a Cold War: Bernard Schriever and the Ultimate Weapon?by Neil Sheehan (Random House)AHEM, SERIOUS MALE REALITIES, WAR AND "REAL WORLD" SHIT: The military-industrial complex proves an unlikely arena for plucky individualism in this history of the men who built America?s intercontinental ballistic missile program in the 1950s and ?60s. Sheehan paints air force Gen. Bernard Schriever and his colorful band of military aides, civilian patrons, defense intellectuals and aerospace entrepreneurs as a guerrilla insurgency fighting Pentagon red tape, and a hostile air force brass, led by Strategic Air Command honcho Curtis LeMay, who advocated megatonnage bomber planes over ICBMs.? In Other Rooms, Other Wonders?by Daniyal Mueenuddin (Norton) In eight beautifully crafted, interconnected stories, Mueenuddin explores the cutthroat feudal society in which a rich Lahore landowner is entrenched. Jeff in Venice, Death in Varanasi?by Geoff Dyer (Pantheon)WHOA, MANLY ADVENTURE Two 40-ish men seeking love and existential meaning are the protagonists of these highly imaginative twin novellas, written in sensuous, lyrical prose brimming with colorful detail. Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon?by David Grann (Doubleday) MORE ON MEN AND THEIR ADVENTUROUS EXPLORING NATURES In 1925, renowned British explorer Col. Percy Harrison Fawcett embarked on a much publicized search to find the city of Z, site of an ancient Amazonian civilization that may or may not have existed. Fawcett, along with his grown son Jack, never returned, but that didn?t stop countless others, including actors, college professors and well-funded explorers from venturing into the jungle to find Fawcett or the city. Among the wannabe explorers is Grann, a staff writer for the?New Yorker, who has bad eyes and a worse sense of direction.? Shop Class as Soulcraft?by Matthew B. Crawford (Penguin Press)THIS LIST SHOULD BE CALLED, "HOW MEN LIVE" Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls manual competence, the ability to work with one's hands. Stitches?by David Small (Norton)AND HOW BOYS GROW UP TO BECOME MEN In this profound and moving memoir, Small, an award-winning children?s book illustrator, uses his drawings to depict the consciousness of a young boy. The story starts when the narrator is six years old and follows him into adulthood, with most of the story spent during his early adolescence. Read more at:?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/ipublishers-weeklyi-top-1_n_338608.html --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Bob Grumman ?wrote: Amazing, but to me a good thing: a list no one at PW felt compelled to put a book by a woman on.? Why must it be assumed that the choices were sexist, that the editorial staff didn't sincerely pick the books they thought were the ten best?? Why in the world would they be sexist?? Out of curiosity: how many women are on the PW editorial staff?? I would admit that it seems odd to me that such a list would have nothing by a woman on it, but I once flipped a coin that came up heads fourteen times in a row. Bad Bob, getting himself stupidly in trouble again--but, hey, maybe now PW's list will have something by ME on it! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 21:31:50 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:31:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030207@nut-n-but.net> <6768ac830911031803x27e65d1bh535209e6e7daa3ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to look at Williams and Stevens among his contemporaries. Throw in Harte Crane, Lorine Niedecker, Oppen. A generation younger, Olson, Creeley. I could go on--Spicer, Blaser, Wieners--but it would get contentious. At 09:03 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Not much is universal, but IMNSHO Frost has no American rivals, and >only Yeats in 20th century English. And he's quite disruptive, in his >way. The Road Not Taken gets read at way too many commencements - >especially considering that he's telling what lies he's going to tell. > >From Mending Wall it's the neighbor who gets quoted, but it's clear >the poem's speaker has more than doubts about the good neighbor good >fences thing. And in Death of the Hired Man, "Home is the place where, >when you have to go there, They have to take you in" is spoken in a >kind of despairing voice when Frost reads it. > >True, The Gift Outright sucks on many levels - > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Apparently not quite universal. > > > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! > >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, is a > >> moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should > think. If he was > >> faking it, he was Very Odd. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > Forthcoming in November 2009. > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From AlMaginnes Tue Nov 3 21:32:40 2009 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:32:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog Message-ID: I find Frost the equal of Williams on almost every level. I'd place him below Stevens and both of them below Eliot. Crane is problematic for me, but probably finally not the equal of Williams or Frost in the end. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Tue Nov 3 21:42:36 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:42:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet Message-ID: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> I'm with Mike Snider about Frost--a very great poet, among the best of his century, easily as good as (for instance) Eliot or Williams. Sam mentioned "A Servant to Servants" and "about fifty others." Yes indeed. "Home Burial" is as good as "The Waste Land." But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in his groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one does not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." Frost had his sententious side, yes, just as Whitman, Eliot, Pound and every other notable poet also had their lapses. Jarrell again: "any poet has written enough bad poetry to scare away anybody." But if you hate "Stopping By Woods," well, there are plenty of poems quite unlike it. And if you think "The Road Not Taken" is a tedious bit of commencement-day platitude, well, you haven't been reading very carefully. I'm surprised at how many smart readers misread that one. And so many others worth attending to: "The Housekeeper" is as strange and creepy and psychologically complex as anything by Poe or Melville. "The Black Cottage" is a marvel that should be at least as famous as "Home-Burial." "A Hundred Collars" is positively Chekhovian. And so on. . . . Years ago on another list Mark Richardson, co-editor of the Library of America edition of Frost, offered the following list of "first-rate (or simply provocative) but seldom anthologized poems" by Frost: "In Hardwood Groves" "Good Hours" "A Servant to Servants" "The Housekeeper" "An Old Man's Winter Night" "The Cow in Apple Time" "The Vanishing Red" "A Star in a Stone Boat" "A Boundless Moment" "Two Look at Two" "Goodbye and Keep Cold" "The Freedom of the Moon" "The Lovely Shall Be Choosers" "The Birthplace" "The Strong Are Saying Nothing" "In Dives Dive" "November" "Too Anxious For Rivers" "A Cliff Dwelling" "A Cabin in the Clearing" "Peril of Hope" "Our Doom to Bloom" Among "uncollected" poems: "The Parlor Joke" "Winter has beaten summer in fight . . ." "Let's Not Think" ====================== And if you're interested in praise and argument and explanation, there's a lot of good criticism out there, too. Richard Poirier's *Frost: The Work of Knowing* is for my money the best single thing on Frost in the scholarly vein, making a real case for Frost's intellectual complexity. Jarrell's essays are also extremely good, especially his one on "Home Burial." And William Pritchard's book on Frost, and and and. . . . There have also been enough biographical treatments correcting and complicating Lawrance Thompson's hatchet-job biography that the tiresome repetition of the myth of Frost as simply "a bad man" really ought to be retired for good. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 21:45:27 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:45:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm immune to levels. At 09:32 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I find Frost the equal of Williams on almost every level. I'd place >him below Stevens and both of them below Eliot. Crane is problematic >for me, but probably finally not the equal of Williams or Frost in the end. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From junction Tue Nov 3 21:52:17 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:52:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree with you? I've read all of Frost. It was always there. Mostly when poets (as opposed to taxonomists or teachers) talk about great poets they mean poets useful to their own practice. I really don't care if Frost is useful for anyone else's practice, tho I'd guess there aren't too many for whom he is. Williams is another matter, so much so that poets contend about which understanding of Williams is more useful, and his children are legion. Lorine Niedecker simply knocks me out. As you say, not much point to this discussion. The unwashed remain unwashed, whoever we think they are. Mark At 09:42 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >I'm with Mike Snider about Frost--a very great poet, among the best >of his century, easily as good as (for instance) Eliot or >Williams. Sam mentioned "A Servant to Servants" and "about fifty >others." Yes indeed. "Home Burial" is as good as "The Waste Land." > >But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone >who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, >pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual >chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in >his groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one >does not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." > >Frost had his sententious side, yes, just as Whitman, Eliot, Pound >and every other notable poet also had their lapses. Jarrell again: >"any poet has written enough bad poetry to scare away anybody." > >But if you hate "Stopping By Woods," well, there are plenty of poems >quite unlike it. And if you think "The Road Not Taken" is a tedious >bit of commencement-day platitude, well, you haven't been reading >very carefully. I'm surprised at how many smart readers misread >that one. And so many others worth attending to: "The Housekeeper" >is as strange and creepy and psychologically complex as anything by >Poe or Melville. "The Black Cottage" is a marvel that should be at >least as famous as "Home-Burial." "A Hundred Collars" is positively >Chekhovian. And so on. . . . > >Years ago on another list Mark Richardson, co-editor of the Library >of America edition of Frost, offered the following list of >"first-rate (or simply provocative) but seldom anthologized poems" by Frost: > >"In Hardwood Groves" >"Good Hours" >"A Servant to Servants" >"The Housekeeper" >"An Old Man's Winter Night" >"The Cow in Apple Time" >"The Vanishing Red" >"A Star in a Stone Boat" >"A Boundless Moment" >"Two Look at Two" >"Goodbye and Keep Cold" >"The Freedom of the Moon" >"The Lovely Shall Be Choosers" >"The Birthplace" >"The Strong Are Saying Nothing" >"In Dives Dive" >"November" >"Too Anxious For Rivers" >"A Cliff Dwelling" >"A Cabin in the Clearing" >"Peril of Hope" >"Our Doom to Bloom" > >Among "uncollected" poems: > >"The Parlor Joke" >"Winter has beaten summer in fight . . ." >"Let's Not Think" >====================== > >And if you're interested in praise and argument and explanation, >there's a lot of good criticism out there, too. Richard Poirier's >*Frost: The Work of Knowing* is for my money the best single thing >on Frost in the scholarly vein, making a real case for Frost's >intellectual complexity. Jarrell's essays are also extremely good, >especially his one on "Home Burial." And William Pritchard's book on >Frost, and and and. . . . There have also been enough biographical >treatments correcting and complicating Lawrance Thompson's >hatchet-job biography that the tiresome repetition of the myth of >Frost as simply "a bad man" really ought to be retired for good. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Tue Nov 3 21:59:24 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:59:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would > agree with you? ============== Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to include you, Mark. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Tue Nov 3 22:02:20 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:02:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> Message-ID: So you think that anyone who's undecided will agree with you if only they understand? I think my other points were more interesting, but c'est la vie. At 09:59 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would >>agree with you? >============== > >Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least >interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect >that to include you, Mark. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From chris Tue Nov 3 22:33:39 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:33:39 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <807383.75050.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 22:46:45 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:46:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CF0B.3030 207@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Apparently not quite universal. > > At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >> I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >> As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it is, >> is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I should >> think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. >> >> --Bob G. I was going by the rational definition of "universal" as "embracing a major part or the greatest portion (as of mankind)." I meant mankind, which would universally be taken as clear--except by rabbits. So, tell me how Frost might not have been writing about his having once been sincerely entranced, as most people, are by falling snow. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 22:55:51 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:55:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4AF0FB47.2060909@nut-n-but.net> > But it's futile to argue such stuff. I would suggest, for anyone > who's at least interested in the possibility of being persuaded, > pulling off the collected poems and wandering about beyond the usual > chestnuts and lightning-rod pieces. As Jarrell said of Whitman in his > groundbreaking re-evaluation, to demonstrate his excellence "one does > not need to praise or explain or argue, one merely needs to quote." That's ridiculous. You have to quote AND kneel. Aside from that, why is no one, at this of all discussion groups, not saying what differentiates Frost from all his contemporaries in this country is his formal craftsmanship, and that counts. "Stopping by Woods" is almost impossible good from the point of view of formal craftsmanship. It may use more standard formal poetic devices successfully than any poem in English--however a few of them may fail for the over-fastidious. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Nov 3 23:05:16 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:05:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: References: <4AF0CD91.4090009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF0FD7C.7090900@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Whittier's "Snowbound"? I did read that once, but can't remember what I thought of it except that I didn't hate it. And, of course, I should have said that I was a sucker for just about anything with snow in it. From junction Tue Nov 3 23:08:49 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:08:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Silliman's blog In-Reply-To: <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> References: <4AF0CF0B.3030 207@nut-n-but.net> <4AF0F925.1000107@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: You have my permission to like the poem, Bob. At 10:46 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Apparently not quite universal. >> >>At 07:47 PM 11/3/2009, you wrote: >>>I guess I meant Al as the one championing the 4 Quartets. Someone did! >>>As for Frost's sincerity in "Stopping by Woods?" Yeeks, all it >>>is, is a moment spent watching snow come down. Universal, I >>>should think. If he was faking it, he was Very Odd. >>> >>>--Bob G. >I was going by the rational definition of "universal" as "embracing >a major part or the greatest portion (as of mankind)." I meant >mankind, which would universally be taken as clear--except by >rabbits. So, tell me how Frost might not have been writing about >his having once been sincerely entranced, as most people, are by falling snow. > >--Bob G. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From amyhappens Tue Nov 3 23:25:47 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, well, men's interests are featured at the top. ?You don't have to think about it! ?It's a no-brainer. ?In fact, sexism has primarily and historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining -- and that's exactly the point: ?this type of shit doesn't get called out and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that it's blatant or anything. ?We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can be disinterested. ?If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. ?Of course, we may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that "reality" - business as usual. ? And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that would "interest" you. ?Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? ?Are you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered 'interests"? ?Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's "interests" - correct? ? And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't "meaty" enough for you - why not? ?I bet if the top ten books were by all women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" ?But where's the "meat" to please here? ?I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. ? --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Tue Nov 3 23:43:53 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:43:53 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <664948.62327.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The bottom line is that I expect a list of "10 Best" to be the 10 Best books the author(s) could think of, regardless of gender. An abstract attachment to gender-balancing is unimportant to me unless it comes down, in the end, to the quality of the books. I have no more interest in creating a 50% split than I do creating a 100% share either way. It just seems to me that arguing in the abstract leads nowhere. If you think books are missing from the list that should be there, then why not tell us what they are? That would be an actual argument based on-- well-- books rather than a prediction of what might have happened (or not) based on a mathematical prediction. Maybe it's merely happenstance that the list was all male. Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's sexism, conscious or not. Maybe it's something in between. But the "should be" argument is incomplete, at least as far as you are making it. You are claiming the list must be biased by the numbers, but that doesn't mean it's biased in any meaningful sense of the term. So, yes, it isn't very interesting without more facts, just as abstract arguments about poetry are far less interesting than arguments about poems. Is it really wholly implausible that the honest-to-goodness 10 best books the writer read, regardless of the author's identity, happened to be written by men? Is it even terribly unlikely? I haven't read all the books on the list, but I have read 6 of them and can't think of a book written by a woman in the last year that I could honestly say was better. My problem is with the automatic case that a list of best books must be gender-balanced rather than assessed based on quality. If the assessment is based on quality and books were overlooked, I'd love to know what they are (in part so I can read them), because that changes the whole thing from an abstract theoretical supposition to something that can be chewed on. That's the meat. Incidentally, I doubt I would've noticed if the list had been composed of all women authors. I certainly wouldn't have thought it was a conspiracy. My reading over the last year has been, by a quick reckoning, about 40% women authors on average (definitely more than a third, definitely not as much as half), with many more female poet than male poets, but significantly fewer-- way fewer-- fiction and non-fiction authors. When I did the "fine fifteen" challenge a few months ago-- creating a list in 15 minutes (off the top of one' head) of the 15 books that stuck with me most-- the novels and short fiction lists had, by a mathematical analysis, too many males. The poetry list had 4/10 female authors. I don't happen to think that makes me a sexist. What I know for sure is that I'd have been lying if I artificially "balanced" the lists rather than honestly listing the books that were most important to me. c On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:25 PM, amy king wrote: > Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, > well, men's interests are featured at the top. You don't have to think > about it! It's a no-brainer. In fact, sexism has primarily and > historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining > -- and that's exactly the point: this type of shit doesn't get called out > and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women > (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point > it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that > it's blatant or anything. We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can > be disinterested. If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. Of course, we > may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as > representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that > "reality" - business as usual. > > And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that > would "interest" you. Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? Are > you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly > by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered > 'interests"? Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult > for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are > mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's > "interests" - correct? > > And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing > Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't > "meaty" enough for you - why not? I bet if the top ten books were by all > women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't > find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and > widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" But where's the > "meat" to please here? I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't > "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. > > > --- On *Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott * wrote: > > > This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books > that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, > there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. > > Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least > those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. > > c > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 00:29:24 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You called for a naming of names - what makes the six books by men you've read "better" than the any of the "40%" of books by women you've read recently? ?And have you read the "50,000" those ten were gleaned from? ?What are you basing your judgment of "better" on? ?The content? ?The writing styles? ?That Cheever's life is more interesting to you than, I don't know what you've read, Atwood's The Year of the Flood? ? What interests you isn't going to be posted and published prominently. ?But PW's reviews editors, plural, do have a responsibility to represent women's writing as being "of note" on a list that promotes the sales of books. ?Otherwise, we resort to the old economic model: ?men's tastes dictate where the money goes: ?back into men's pockets. ? Even if that means "artificially" considering what, beyond these mostly-male editors views, woman's book meets their "very best" criteria - and closely examining just what that criteria is. ?From first glance, it seems the primary criteria is that the content of these books must be about men's lives. ? "The titles, whittled down from the more than 50,000 volumes considered this year, were picked by the?PW?reviews editors to reflect the very best of 2009. Here,?PW?reviews the 10 books." And yes, going back to statistics again, because if we assume that half of the 50000 books are by women and that about half of the reading population is women, then at least a few of the "very best" books should be by women (I understand you don't like speculations based on statistics, alas) - so you're going to tell me that out of 50000 books published this year, not one woman writer wrote a book worthy of the top 10 "very best"? ?Based on what criteria do men write "better" books of note than even well known, long standing female authors? ?So it goes, yet again, this list teaches me and other readers that only men write "the very best" out of 50,000 books published this year. ?And yet, reading the summaries of these ten books, I can knock at least half of them off as books I would most likely not purchase and read - the war book, the feudal system book, the Cheever book (sorry!), the one about the dude heroin addict (I've known enough of them in real life that romanticizing their "struggle" just pisses me off), and the one about the British explorer. ?Call me biased, call me a "content" queen, but those stories of male angst and overcoming nature and the art of war just don't interest me greatly and, even if written in eloquent lovely prose, would certainly not make my list of "very best." ?I'd go out on a limb and speculate that a number of other women feel similarly. ?And yet, approx. 50% of the reading/writing population doesn't get a consideration in this list? ? Oh damn - I resorted to considering half of the population again via statistics. You see, I can't wrap my mind around how the "universal" male experience is all about ignoring statistics and calling those "kinds" of stories the "very best" when it comes to lists like this. ? For you, it's about what's "better" and more "interesting" to you - but what has historically been defined as "better" or "the very best" has been dominated by men's tastes, and many women have learned to conform to those tastes, backing off and shutting up even as lists reinforcing our inequality proliferates (or just our inability to write "the very best"), because what's "better" has been taught to us by a system that has always prominently featured and valued male writing -- just ask the literary canon, which has consequently tokenized women's words - "You'll make the list, girls - just not as high up! ?Your writing just isn't as good!". ?But according to who - what is "better" for you, Chris? ?Shall the male version of "better" always dominate top ten lists? ? And no surprise here of the "reviews editors" who chose "the very best" books - wonder what criteria for "best" would say about the realities and stories that "interested" them in their hunt for "the very best": SENIOR REVIEWS EDITORS Sarah F. Gold Mark Rotella REVIEWS EDITORS Peter Cannon ASSOCIATE REVIEWS EDITORS Jonathan Segura Marc Schultz --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: The bottom line is that I expect a list of "10 Best" to be the 10 Best books the author(s) could think of, regardless of gender. An abstract attachment to gender-balancing is unimportant to me unless it comes down, in the end, to the quality of the books. I have no more interest in creating a 50% split than I do creating a 100% share either way. It just seems to me that arguing in the abstract leads nowhere. If you think books are missing from the list that should be there, then why not tell us what they are? That would be an actual argument based on-- well-- books rather than a prediction of what might have happened (or not) based on a mathematical prediction. Maybe it's merely happenstance that the list was all male. Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's sexism, conscious or not. Maybe it's something in between. But the "should be" argument is incomplete, at least as far as you are making it. You are claiming the list must be biased by the numbers, but that doesn't mean it's biased in any meaningful sense of the term. So, yes, it isn't very interesting without more facts, just as abstract arguments about poetry are far less interesting than arguments about poems. Is it really wholly implausible that the honest-to-goodness 10 best books the writer read, regardless of the author's identity, happened to be written by men? Is it even terribly unlikely? I haven't read all the books on the list, but I have read 6 of them and can't think of a book written by a woman in the last year that I could honestly say was better. My problem is with the automatic case that a list of best books must be gender-balanced rather than assessed based on quality. If the assessment is based on quality and books were overlooked, I'd love to know what they are (in part so I can read them), because that changes the whole thing from an abstract theoretical supposition to something that can be chewed on. That's the meat. Incidentally, I doubt I would've noticed if the list had been composed of all women authors. I certainly wouldn't have thought it was a conspiracy. My reading over the last year has been, by a quick reckoning, about 40% women authors on average (definitely more than a third, definitely not as much as half), with many more female poet than male poets, but significantly fewer-- way fewer-- ?fiction and non-fiction authors. When I did the "fine fifteen" challenge a few months ago-- creating a list in 15 minutes (off the top of one' head) of the 15 books that stuck with me most-- the novels and short fiction lists had, by a mathematical analysis, too many males. The poetry list had 4/10 female authors. I don't happen to think that makes me a sexist. What I know for sure is that I'd have been lying if I artificially "balanced" the lists rather than honestly listing the books that were most important to me. c On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:25 PM, amy king wrote: Such a biased list may not be so "interesting" to you, Chris, because, well, men's interests are featured at the top. ?You don't have to think about it! ?It's a no-brainer. ?In fact, sexism has primarily and historically "interested" women mostly, though very few find it entertaining -- and that's exactly the point: ?this type of shit doesn't get called out and noted very often because it's typically only seen as a bias by women (though there are some men for whom that isn't true), and when women point it out, we're told we're just "assuming" sexism is playing a hand, not that it's blatant or anything. ?We're told there's no "meat" and, yawn, men can be disinterested. ?If I press it, then I'm a just boring you. ?Of course, we may default here to the long-running "universal" male experience as representing all of the human race and just continue to live with that "reality" - business as usual. ? And now you've called me to debate what books might be better, because that would "interest" you. ?Have you read any books by women lately, Chris? ?Are you also in agreement that the books of note in the world today are mostly by men and about men's perceptions of their mostly male-centered 'interests"? ?Because when you're making lists that libraries may consult for acquisition purposes, you want to make sure the books acquired are mostly written by men and are about the traditional topics of men's "interests" - correct? ? And of course, publicly recognizing that these editors, representing Publishers Weekly, are irresponsible in making such a biased list isn't "meaty" enough for you - why not? ?I bet if the top ten books were by all women, you'd be wondering how the hell it was possible the editors didn't find a single book "of note" by a man to place on this featured and widely-read list -- "Good god! Are the editors all women??" ?But where's the "meat" to please here? ?I'm sorry to have posted a story that doesn't "interest" you, Chris -- but not really. ? --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Chris Lott wrote: This would be more interesting if some suggestion were made as to books that should be on the list rather than assuming that, because of statistics, there should be and the editors of PW must be sexist. Of course any list is fodder for argument and discussion, but at least those arguments and discussions would have some meat on their bones. c _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 06:30:51 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:30:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. From r_loden Wed Nov 4 07:05:58 2009 From: r_loden (Rachel Loden) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 04:05:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Nowak, Reid Gomez, and Rachel Loden on Class/War at Small Press Traffic in SF Message-ID: Mark Nowak, Reid Gomez, and Rachel Loden (with special guest Harsha Ram) on Class/War A reading with two (!) multimedia presentations Saturday, November 7 Small Press Traffic California College of the Arts San Francisco Campus Timken Hall 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, CA 7:30 p.m. http://www.sptraffic.org/html/events.htm Info: smallpresstraffic at gmail.com Mark Nowak is the author of Coal Mountain Elementary (Coffee House Press, 2009) and Shut Up Shut Down (Coffee House Press, 2004). He designs and facilitates ?poetry dialogues? with Ford autoworkers in the United States and South Africa (through the UAW and NUMSA), striking clerical workers (through AFSCME 3800), Muslim/Somali nurses and healthcare workers (through Rufaidah), and others. Reid G?mez is an urban raised Navajo from the Rock formerly known as Potrero Hill. She was the winner of the 1995 Astrea Lesbian Writers award and is the author of California Wasn?t Good For Us. She is currently finishing her novel, Urban Nizh?n?. Rachel Loden?s second full-length book, Dick of the Dead, was published by Ahsahta Press in May 2009. She is also the author of Hotel Imperium (Georgia), which was named one of the ten best poetry books of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle. Harsha Ram is Associate Professor of Slavic and Comparative Literatures at UC Berkeley and author of The Imperial Sublime: A Russian Poetics of Empire (University of Wisconsin Press, 2003). His most recent work is on the literary dialogue between Russia and Georgia and he has an ongoing interest in the relationship between poetry and political power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Nov 4 06:57:40 2009 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:57:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF16C34.9080809@nut-n-but.net> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 4 08:30:45 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:30:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] for the best single-authored monograph on American periodicals Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911040530j7e70455if2bf4b29fb104e04@mail.gmail.com> *>From:* Ellen Garvey [mailto:ellengarvey at earthlink.net] *>Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:43 PM The Research Society for American Periodicals is pleased to announce a $1,500 book prize for the best single-authored monograph on American periodicals by a pre-tenure, senior, or independent scholar published by an academic press between January 1, 2007 and December 1, 2009. The prize will be awarded at the American Literature Association (ALA) conference in San Francisco, CA, May 27-30, 2010. Books will be judged by a peer review of three scholars chosen by the RSAP Advisory Board. Applicants should submit a registration form (see details, below) and THREE hard copies of their book to Jean Lee Cole, Department of English, Loyola University Maryland, 4501 N. Charles St., Baltimore, MD. 21210, by December 1, 2009. The winner and two honorable mentions will be notified by January 15, 2010 and will be recognized at an RSAP-sponsored panel/event at ALA. Applicants to the EBSCOhost-RSAP prize must be current members of RSAP when they submit their books. *To join the Research Society for American Periodicals, and to download a copy of the prize registration form, please consult the Society?s web site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~ellengarvey/index1.html *(Note that joining the RSAP-L list does not constitute joining RSAP). Ellen Gruber Garvey, Ph.D. Professor Department of English New Jersey City University Visit the Research Society for American Periodicals website at: http://home.earthlink.net/~ellengarvey/index1.html email: ellengarvey at earthlink.net -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 4 08:55:04 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:55:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> References: <642039.93957.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4AF187B8.1070500@opus40.org> You're operating on the assumption that the PW editors would either consciously set out to be sexist -- hmm, we have contempt for women, so let's eliminate all the women authors from consideration -- or they would have no sexist bias at all. Bob Grumman wrote: > I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would > commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to > antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? > > Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care > what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books > of the year? > > I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any > collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or > philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of > less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on > previous lists? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 09:01:01 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Bob, Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist act? ?That's the beauty of sexism: ?it's about enacting the long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. ?It can be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. ?You can study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. ?And of course, economics can offer you statistical evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. ?Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. ?But I guess I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. ?Here's another shocker: ?even I, and other women, can be sexist. ?We learn it well and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. ? It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! ?But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how their picks for the best books came to be all by men! ?They were just innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. ?And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are all about men and their lives. ? ? As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. ?You'll have to do your own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San Francisco today! But one more for the road: Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the boundaries of contemporary poetics? ?Did he intentionally edit a book in which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" innovators are mostly male? ?Either way you slice it... CONTEMPORARY POETICS "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, for the Twenty-First Century" Edited by?Louis Armand ISBN?0-8101-2359-2?(paperback). 384pp. Publisher:?Northwestern University Press, Evanston. http://nupress.northwestern.edu Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics of the contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the historical advent of?concrete poetry?to the current technopoetics of cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a mere marker of present-day?literary activity, their work addresses the limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with?Stephane Mallarme?in the late nineteenth century--that engages concretely with what it means to be contemporary. Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to?Wallace Stevens?and?Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete poetics" to the "codework" of?Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the field." --Michael Golston "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin CONTENTS 1. END GAME Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents 2. PRECURSORS Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing Michel Delville & Andrew Norris:?Frank Zappa,?Captain Beefheart, and the?Secret History?of?Maximalism 3. CONJUNCTIONS Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being Keston Sutherland: Vagueness DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found 4. CURSORS Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium Darren Tofts:?Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework Alan Sondheim: Codeworld 5.?TRANSPOSITIONS Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics and the Differential Text Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the Other.?www.litterariapragensia.com _______ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm? --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a sexist act.? PW is completely commercial.? They don't want to antagonize their female writers.? What was their motive? Aside from that, so what?? What intelligent reader could possibly care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think? are the ten best books of the year? I missed the list, by the way.? Can anyone provide it????Was any collection of poetry on it?? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it?? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500?? Does PW make up such a list every year?? What was on previous lists? --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 10:24:50 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:24:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not given to political correctness (or any other kind of correctness), but I have to agree. Changes in the status of women in the US, and in the way women's issues are considered, have been dramatic but far from complete. The unconscious or semiconscious biases that we all carry with us are persistent, a matter of generations of awareness for change to happen. In this regard sexism is like racism--change in the laws, difficult as it is, is the easy part. Awareness of our racial attitudes is the ongoing internal and social dialogue. Men and women--certainly straight men and women--will always indulge in crude jokes among themselves--it's how we comfort ourselves about the irreducible difficulties of living together. Censoring such behavior won't work and is probably beside the point--think of it as a carnavalesque time-out. What has to happen--what's been happening very slowly--is a change in our own awarenesses during the hard work of daily life. It's incomprehensible to me that the compilers of the list, having compiled it, don't appear to have asked themselves "where are the women?" This isn't a matter of setting quotas, but of awareness. One might still compile the same list, but I think an explanation for the absence would be inevitable. The American avant garde--hey, let's not argue about the term--has been until recently something of a boy's club. Nonetheless, Armand's book is shocking. Couldn't he have solicited an article about Alice Notley or Rochelle Owens if none was spontaneously offered? How could an editor be so lazy? At the very least, as with the PW list, an explanation is in order. My Cuban anthology would seem to under-represent women. It's a different culture, and the book tries to map what has been, not what one would hope had been. I deal with the discrepancy near the beginning of my introduction--how could one not? It's uncomfortable to do so, but less uncomfortable than not doing so. Doesn't this come down to a piece of "the unexamined life is not worth living? Best, Mark At 09:01 AM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a >sexist act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the >long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you >"mean" to or not. It can be intentional in that men can do so to >protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn >to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. You can >study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. And >of course, economics can offer you statistical evidence that you may >just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets favored - >women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men >do. Men statistically move higher faster in specific >industries. But I guess I'm just using stats again where no one >intended to be sexist. Here's another shocker: even I, and other >women, can be sexist. We learn it well and are often coerced to >parrot it to please men. > >It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to >be repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't >mean it! But that examination typically falls in the laps of those >damned feminists because why should the mostly male reviews editors >at PW have to wonder how their picks for the best books came to be >all by men! They were just innocently picking "the very best!" no >matter what *their* criteria were. And as I said, the main criteria >seems to be that the books' contents are all about men and their lives. > >As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do >your own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way >to San Francisco today! > >But one more for the road: > >Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the >boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a >book in which so few women are represented or was it just that his >"very best" innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... > > >CONTEMPORARY POETICS > >"Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & >Practice, for the Twenty-First Century" > >Edited by Louis Armand > >ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. > >Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. > >http://nupress.northwestern.edu > >Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of >literary study--a field that in fact shares territory with >philology, aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even >cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of critical writings that, >taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics of the >contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and >distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of >what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the >historical advent of concrete poetry to the current technopoetics of >cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own >time, as a mere marker of present-day literary activity, their work >addresses the limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with >Stephane Mallarme in the late nineteenth century--that engages >concretely with what it means to be contemporary. > >Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the >textual apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's >critical-historical treatment of "writing after" Bernstein and other >proponents of language poetry, provides an itinerary of contemporary >poetics in terms of both theory and practice. The other essays >consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the histories or >prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to >Wallace Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more >strictly theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement >with rhetoric, prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; >"cursors," which points to the open possibilities of invention, from >Augusto de Campos's "concrete poetics" to the "codework" of Alan >Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining the limits of poetic >invention by way of technology. > >"An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of >contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in >the field." --Michael Golston > >"Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several >others easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin > >CONTENTS > >1. END GAME >Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? >Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents > >2. PRECURSORS >Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek >Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism >Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated >Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As >DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing >Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and >the Secret History of Maximalism > >3. CONJUNCTIONS >Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being >Keston Sutherland: Vagueness >DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & >Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes >Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found > >4. CURSORS >Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto >Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium >Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext >Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics >J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life >McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework >Alan Sondheim: Codeworld > >5. TRANSPOSITIONS >Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext >Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap >Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage >Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations >Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital >Poetics and the Differential Text > >Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural >Theory in the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His >books include Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: >Discourses of the Other. >www.litterariapragensia.com > >_______ > >NEW BOOK > >Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm > >--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: > >From: Bob Grumman >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM > >I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would >commit a sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want >to antagonize their female writers. What was their motive? > >Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly >care what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten >best books of the year? > >I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any >collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or >philosophy on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of >less than 500? Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on >previous lists? > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From alexdickow9 Wed Nov 4 11:55:15 2009 From: alexdickow9 (Alexander Dickow) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] bias In-Reply-To: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Definitely a biased list. The most interesting writers currently writing happen to be women, especially in poetry. Go look at the online journals and count the names: I think the conclusion is inevitable. But none of them, or very few, would be likely to be placed on lists like the one under discussion, since most of them don't have widespread institutional recognition. With a few exceptions, obviously. But I think I'm with Bad Bob when it comes to institutionally constructed lists like this one. Speaking of this, I REALLY need a reviewer of a book of poetry by a woman, for an issue of Ekleksographia I'm putting together. Two-four double-spaced pages, on short notice (within two-three weeks maximum). A connection to France is preferable, but not required. Any takers? I'd be grateful.... Back to lurking (and working), Amicalement, Alex "Still Here" Dickow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris Wed Nov 4 12:10:09 2009 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:10:09 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] bias In-Reply-To: <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200911041231.nA4CVr9x029198@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <276125.60846.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Definitely a biased list. The most interesting writers currently writing > happen to be women, especially in poetry. I think I agree, at least when it comes to poetry. Not that ALL the most interesting writers of contemporary poetry are women, but many of them are. Scanning online journals doesn't really reinforce that point, though-- as far as I can tell women and men are both represented in significant numbers. But it's that word "especially" that subtly references the very problem... recognizing that the proportions vary... and then when you put together a list that mixes genres, the mathematics change considerably. c From cvoisine Wed Nov 4 12:26:39 2009 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:26:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate response to modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that modernism was attempting to address and grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism involved with the modernist quandary which was, in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as every lyric poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this subjectivity is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of the commentator and not of the station? disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a remedy has been the recent solution; many post-modern techniques depend upon it. As another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing the problem of point of view that way. Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private sensibility while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of a broader world. Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of personal experience, but the emphasis is on the casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an intense and personal voice. Thus we understand something about "the human condition" without relying on confession; a particular personality is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I crave. Connie On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham wrote: > > On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree with > you? > > ============== > > Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least > interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to > include you, Mark. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens Wed Nov 4 14:19:34 2009 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:19:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tomorrow_and_Friday=3A__Ana_Bo=C5=BEi?= =?utf-8?q?=C4=8Devi=C4=87_and_Amy_King_-_November_5th_and_6th_-_San_Franc?= =?utf-8?q?isco=2C_CA?= Message-ID: <940333.71599.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thursday, November 5, 3:30 pm @ the Poetry Center -- HUM 512, SFSU, free ~? Friday, November 6, 7:00 pm @ the Green Arcade -- 1680 Market (at Gough), free http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/eventCalendar.html ~~ Ana Bo?i?evi? emigrated to NYC from Croatia in 1997. Her first book of poetry isStars of the Night Commute (Tarpaulin Sky Press, Fall 2009). She's also the author of new chapbooks The Stars on the 7:18 to Penn (Dusie Press) and God, Sebastian, Amy (Flying Guillotine Press), as well as Document (Octopus Books, 2007) and Morning News (Kitchen Press, 2006). For more, visit http://nightcommute.org. Amy King is the author of I?m the Man Who Loves You andAntidotes for an Alibi, both from Blazevox Books, The People Instruments (Pavement Saw Press), and forthcoming, Slaves to Do These Things and I Want to Make You Safe. She moderates the Poetics List and the Women?s Poetry Listserv (WOMPO), and teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College. For more info, http://amyking.org. ? Together, they curate The Stain of Poetry: A Reading Series in Brooklyn, NY - http://stainofpoetry.com ___________ NEW BOOK Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm From anny.ballardini Wed Nov 4 14:25:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:25:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70911041125q2c12c46by488870ba10274653@mail.gmail.com> I erroneously sent this answer to the Buffalo... I should be more careful: I would like to highlight the following by Amy King: Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, theater, art, etc. This is a piercing analysis that can be applied to infinite kinds of suppression. We have all experimented the hypocrisy of those who have not committed the act nor insulted directly - in closed circuits since when we were children - and with their detached and superior candor have increased our feeling of estrangement. I am sure that you are following me here with personal experiences. Foucault analyzes the 'social discourse' as much as he can, and both Foucault and Derrida are highly attentive to the dynamics that accompany easy statements, and to their disastrous results. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:01 PM, amy king wrote: > Bob, > > Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist > act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running > favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can > be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also > be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are > conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, > theater, art, etc. And of course, economics can offer you statistical > evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets > favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. > Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. But I guess > I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. Here's > another shocker: even I, and other women, can be sexist. We learn it well > and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. > > It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be > repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! > But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists > because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how > their picks for the best books came to be all by men! They were just > innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. > And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are > all about men and their lives. > > As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do your own > research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San Francisco > today! > > But one more for the road: > > Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the > boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a book in > which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" > innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... > > > CONTEMPORARY POETICS > > "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, > for the Twenty-First Century" > > Edited by Louis Armand > > ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. > > Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. > > http://nupress.northwestern.edu > > Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary > study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, aesthetics,cultural > theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume gathers a body of > critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate a possible poetics > of the contemporary. In these essays, the most interesting and distinguished > theorists in the field renegotiate the contours of what might constitute > "contemporary poetics," ranging from the historical advent of concrete > poetry to the current technopoetics of cyberspace. Concerned with a > poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a mere marker of present-day literary > activity, their work addresses the limits of a writing > "practice"--beginning with Stephane Mallarme in the late nineteenth > century--that engages concretely with what it means to be contemporary. > > Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual > apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of > "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides > an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. > The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the > histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to Wallace > Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly > theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, > prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points > to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete > poetics" to the "codework" of Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," > defining the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. > > "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of > contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the > field." --Michael Golston > > "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others > easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin > > CONTENTS > > 1. END GAME > Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? > Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents > > 2. PRECURSORS > Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek > Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism > Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated > Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As > DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing > Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and the Secret > History of Maximalism > > 3. CONJUNCTIONS > Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being > Keston Sutherland: Vagueness > DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & > Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes > Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found > > 4. CURSORS > Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto > Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium > Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext > Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics > J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life > McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework > Alan Sondheim: Codeworld > > 5. TRANSPOSITIONS > Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext > Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap > Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage > Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations > Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics > and the Differential Text > > Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in > the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include > Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the > Other. www.litterariapragensia.com > > _______* > > NEW BOOK > > Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm * > > --- On *Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman * wrote: > > > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM > > > I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a > sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize > their female writers. What was their motive? > > Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care what > the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of the > year? > > I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any collection > of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy on it? Any > book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? Does PW make > up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 14:47:51 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:47:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.co m> References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >one way i have come to think of frost (having >spent the summer reintroducing myself to his >work) is that his is an alternate response to >modernism. he was there, he heard the problems >that modernism was attempting to address and >grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism >involved with the modernist quandary which was, >in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private >experiential space that risks?as every lyric >poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming >solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal >confession (a series of events) and/or a >particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. >To be accountable for this subjectivity is the >honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >the commentator and not of the station? >disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a >remedy has been the recent solution; many >post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, >is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing >the problem of point of view that way. > >Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) >through a combination of directness and >excision, to sustain a complex and even private >sensibility while cracking this self open to >encompass the affairs of a broader world. >Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >personal experience, but the emphasis is on the >casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an >intense and personal voice. Thus we understand >something about "the human condition" without >relying on confession; a particular personality >is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > >To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to >tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic >lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded >in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing >specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a >philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > > >Connie > > >On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham ><grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: > >On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Do you really think that if only they >>understood everyone would agree with you? >============== > >Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to >"anyone who's at least interested in the >possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to include you, Mark. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From grahamd Wed Nov 4 14:55:48 2009 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:55:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose lifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" Pound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by Frost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." On 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having >> spent the summer reintroducing myself to his >> work) is that his is an alternate response to >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems >> that modernism was attempting to address and >> grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism >> involved with the modernist quandary which was, >> in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private >> experiential space that risks?as every lyric >> poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming >> solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal >> confession (a series of events) and/or a >> particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. >> To be accountable for this subjectivity is the >> honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >> the commentator and not of the station? >> disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a >> remedy has been the recent solution; many >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, >> is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing >> the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) >> through a combination of directness and >> excision, to sustain a complex and even private >> sensibility while cracking this self open to >> encompass the affairs of a broader world. >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the >> casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an >> intense and personal voice. Thus we understand >> something about "the human condition" without >> relying on confession; a particular personality >> is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to >> tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic >> lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded >> in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing >> specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a >> philosophical largeness, one that I crave. >> >> >> Connie >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From cvoisine Wed Nov 4 15:17:23 2009 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:17:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de80911041217i47783226o66479668640599b3@mail.gmail.com> i adore stevens... c On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic > monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > > one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer >> reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate response to >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that modernism was attempting >> to address and grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism involved with >> the modernist quandary which was, in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as >> every lyric poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too >> reliant on the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular >> sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this subjectivity >> is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of the commentator and >> not of the station? disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a remedy has >> been the recent solution; many post-modern techniques depend upon it. As >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate >> the speaker, managing the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of >> directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private sensibility >> while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of a broader world. >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of personal experience, but the >> emphasis is on the casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an intense and >> personal voice. Thus we understand something about "the human condition" >> without relying on confession; a particular personality is not the subject >> of these kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to tackle some of these issues >> of the post-romantic lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded in rural >> New England, also avoid a narrowing specificity of autobiography, thus >> achieving a philosophical largeness, one that I crave. >> >> >> Connie >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM, David Graham < >> grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: >> >> On Nov 3, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Do you really think that if only they understood everyone would agree >>> with you? >>> >> ============== >> >> Nope. I made some suggestions addressed to "anyone who's at least >> interested in the possibility of being persuaded." I didn't expect that to >> include you, Mark. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Connie Voisine >> Associate Professor of English >> New Mexico State University >> cvoisine at nmsu.edu >> 575-646-2027 >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince Wed Nov 4 15:19:38 2009 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:19:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly In-Reply-To: References: <4AF165EB.5000302@nut-n-but.net> <309924.34696.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0911041219t32445c09leb69d2496e3c08a@mail.gmail.com> Mark, a huge 'ditto' to all that you and Amy wrote [below]. Sexism, racism, ageism, classism---pervade all of us. Hence, for example, I've internalised sexism; that is, as a female, I'm sexist against myself and other females [as well as males]. It would seem, then, that all of us would be wise to be open to pointings-out---without feeling the stigma of their being personal pointings-out. As well, we all can become, increasingly, aware of our reactions, and open to various ways of creatively counteracting them. Best, Judy 2009/11/4 Mark Weiss > I'm not given to political correctness (or any other kind of correctness), > but I have to agree. Changes in the status of women in the US, and in the > way women's issues are considered, have been dramatic but far from complete. > The unconscious or semiconscious biases that we all carry with us are > persistent, a matter of generations of awareness for change to happen. In > this regard sexism is like racism--change in the laws, difficult as it is, > is the easy part. Awareness of our racial attitudes is the ongoing internal > and social dialogue. > > Men and women--certainly straight men and women--will always indulge in > crude jokes among themselves--it's how we comfort ourselves about the > irreducible difficulties of living together. Censoring such behavior won't > work and is probably beside the point--think of it as a carnavalesque > time-out. What has to happen--what's been happening very slowly--is a change > in our own awarenesses during the hard work of daily life. > > It's incomprehensible to me that the compilers of the list, having compiled > it, don't appear to have asked themselves "where are the women?" This isn't > a matter of setting quotas, but of awareness. One might still compile the > same list, but I think an explanation for the absence would be inevitable. > > The American avant garde--hey, let's not argue about the term--has been > until recently something of a boy's club. Nonetheless, Armand's book is > shocking. Couldn't he have solicited an article about Alice Notley or > Rochelle Owens if none was spontaneously offered? How could an editor be so > lazy? > > At the very least, as with the PW list, an explanation is in order. My > Cuban anthology would seem to under-represent women. It's a different > culture, and the book tries to map what has been, not what one would hope > had been. I deal with the discrepancy near the beginning of my > introduction--how could one not? It's uncomfortable to do so, but less > uncomfortable than not doing so. > > Doesn't this come down to a piece of "the unexamined life is not worth > living? > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 09:01 AM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> Do you really think people have to intend to be sexist to commit a sexist >> act? That's the beauty of sexism: it's about enacting the long-running >> favoritism of men and men's interests, whether you "mean" to or not. It can >> be intentional in that men can do so to protect their interests; it can also >> be unconscious in that we learn to favor the male viewpoint and are >> conditioned to it. You can study the realities of that in literature, >> theater, art, etc. And of course, economics can offer you statistical >> evidence that you may just dismiss out of hand but still evidences who gets >> favored - women still don't make the same pay for the same work that men do. >> Men statistically move higher faster in specific industries. But I guess >> I'm just using stats again where no one intended to be sexist. Here's >> another shocker: even I, and other women, can be sexist. We learn it well >> and are often coerced to parrot it to please men. >> >> It takes more effort to exam how a bias came to be and continues to be >> repeated than it does to be dismissive and say, Well, they didn't mean it! >> But that examination typically falls in the laps of those damned feminists >> because why should the mostly male reviews editors at PW have to wonder how >> their picks for the best books came to be all by men! They were just >> innocently picking "the very best!" no matter what *their* criteria were. >> And as I said, the main criteria seems to be that the books' contents are >> all about men and their lives. >> >> As for your questions, Bob, I haven't the time. You'll have to do your >> own research on this one now as I am packing and making my way to San >> Francisco today! >> >> But one more for the road: >> >> Does Louis Armand really think that so few women are redefining the >> boundaries of contemporary poetics? Did he intentionally edit a book in >> which so few women are represented or was it just that his "very best" >> innovators are mostly male? Either way you slice it... >> >> >> CONTEMPORARY POETICS >> >> "Redefining the Boundaries of Contemporary Poetics, in Theory & Practice, >> for the Twenty-First Century" >> >> Edited by Louis Armand >> >> ISBN 0-8101-2359-2 (paperback). 384pp. >> >> Publisher: Northwestern University Press, Evanston. >> >> http://nupress.northwestern.edu >> >> >> Exploring the boundaries of one of the most contested fields of literary >> study--a field that in fact shares territory with philology, >> aesthetics,cultural theory, philosophy, and even cybernetics--this volume >> gathers a body of critical writings that, taken together, broadly delineate >> a possible poetics of the contemporary. In these essays, the most >> interesting and distinguished theorists in the field renegotiate the >> contours of what might constitute "contemporary poetics," ranging from the >> historical advent of concrete poetry to the current technopoetics of >> cyberspace. Concerned with a poetics that extends beyond our own time, as a >> mere marker of present-day literary activity, their work addresses the >> limits of a writing "practice"--beginning with Stephane Mallarme in the late >> nineteenth century--that engages concretely with what it means to be >> contemporary. >> >> Charles Bernstein's Swiftian satire of generative poetics and the textual >> apparatus, together with Marjorie Perloff's critical-historical treatment of >> "writing after" Bernstein and other proponents of language poetry, provides >> an itinerary of contemporary poetics in terms of both theory and practice. >> The other essays consider "precursors," recognizable figures within the >> histories or prehistories of contemporary poetics, from Kafka and Joyce to >> Wallace Stevens and Kathy Acker; "conjunctions," in which more strictly >> theoretical and poetical texts enact a concerted engagement with rhetoric, >> prosody, and the vicissitudes of "intelligibility"; "cursors," which points >> to the open possibilities of invention, from Augusto de Campos's "concrete >> poetics" to the "codework" of Alan Sondheim; and "transpositions," defining >> the limits of poetic invention by way of technology. >> >> "An epoch-defining collection of manifestos and essays: its list of >> contributors reads as a who's who of current important theorists in the >> field." --Michael Golston >> >> "Puts a number of excellent essays back in print and makes several others >> easily available for the first time." --Craig Dworkin >> >> CONTENTS >> >> 1. END GAME >> Charles Bernstein: How Empty is my Bread Pudding? >> Marjorie Perloff: After Language Poetry: Modernity & its Discontents >> >> 2. PRECURSORS >> Kevin Nolan: Getting Past Odradek >> Donald F Theall: The Avant-Garde & the Wake of Radical Modernism >> Bob Perelman: Doctor Williams's Position, Updated >> Simon Critchley: Wallace Stevens and the Infinite Evasion of As >> DJ Huppatz: Corporeal Poetics: Kathy Acker's Writing >> Michel Delville & Andrew Norris: Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and the >> Secret History of Maximalism >> >> 3. CONJUNCTIONS >> Ricardo Nirenberg: Metaphor: The Colour of Being >> Keston Sutherland: Vagueness >> DJ Huppatz, Nicole Tomlinson & Julian Savage: AND & >> Bruce Andrews: Readings Notes >> Bruce Andrews: Lost and Found >> >> 4. CURSORS >> Augusto de Campos: Concrete Poetry: A Manifesto >> Augusto de Campos: Questionnaire of the Yale Symposium >> Darren Tofts: Epigrams, Particle Theory and Hypertext >> Gregory L Ulmer: Image Heuretics >> J. Hillis Miller: The Poetics of Cyberspace: Two Ways to Get a Life >> McKenzie Wark: From Hypertext to Codework >> Alan Sondheim: Codeworld >> >> 5. TRANSPOSITIONS >> Louis Armand: Techno-Poetics in the Vortext >> Steve McCaffery: Parapoetics and the Architectural Leap >> Allen Fisher: Traps or Tools and Damage >> Steve McCaffery: Discontinued Meditations >> Marjorie Perloff: Screening the Page / Paging the Screen: Digital Poetics >> and the Differential Text >> >> Louis Armand is director of the Centre for Critical & Cultural Theory in >> the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include >> Solicitations: Essays on Criticid Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the >> Other. www.litterariapragensia.com >> >> >> _______ >> >> NEW BOOK >> >> Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm >> >> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> From: Bob Grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Women Don't Write Good Books - Publishers Weekly >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:30 AM >> >> I still want to know, Amy, why in the world the PW editors would commit a >> sexist act. PW is completely commercial. They don't want to antagonize >> their female writers. What was their motive? >> >> Aside from that, so what? What intelligent reader could possibly care >> what the stasguards at Publishers Weekly think are the ten best books of >> the year? >> >> I missed the list, by the way. Can anyone provide it? Was any >> collection of poetry on it? Was any work of serious science or philosophy >> on it? Any book by an unknown author or in an edition of less than 500? >> Does PW make up such a list every year? What was on previous lists? >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > Forthcoming in November 2009. > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip Wed Nov 4 15:35:20 2009 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:35:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Frost's narrative poems previous to 1936 are some of the best of the century. Stevens, by the way, did something very like the dramatic monologue: "Comedian in Letter C" and "Le Monocle. . . ." (Maybe the listener was not as delineated as in Browning, but perhaps--though without the "you"--as much as in Eliot's "Prufrock.") I closely looked through Stevens' letters once to see if he ever spoke of other writer only in glowing terms. There was one: Marianne Moore. From derekmotion Wed Nov 4 17:34:42 2009 From: derekmotion (Derek Motion) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:34:42 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry - Blog Battle to the Death Message-ID: <8F8A48F3-9CAD-4F58-A9A1-6F56457A3C5D@aapt.net.au> Does the poetry world need more bloggers, or more quality bloggers (ie. less)? I am currently attempting to defeat another Australian poet, & force him to abandon his blog forever. You can help me to win this contest by leaving a comment here: http://typingspace.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/motion-silences-curnow-blog-battle/ Of course I know that by drawing your attention to this, I am also drawing your attention to Curnow's blog, & you may decide his is infinitely superior. This is a tiny risk I am willing to take. His entry is located here: http://ncurnow.blogspot.com/2009/10/curnow-vs-motion-blog-battle.html I will trust you to make the right decision. regards Derek Motion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames Wed Nov 4 20:41:49 2009 From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:41:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> For me Frost is beyond taste or preference. I consider it a kind of critical blindspot not to recognize the greatness in Frost, no matter one's predilections. Dramatic monologues don't need to be resorted to, do they. They are a type of pome, like the formal meditation: Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose ifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" ound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by rost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." n 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic monologues, At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > one way i have come to think of frost (having > spent the summer reintroducing myself to his > work) is that his is an alternate response to > modernism. he was there, he heard the problems > that modernism was attempting to address and > grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism > involved with the modernist quandary which was, > in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the > tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private > experiential space that risks?as every lyric > poet from Keats on down has noted?becoming > solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal > confession (a series of events) and/or a > particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. > To be accountable for this subjectivity is the > honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of > the commentator and not of the station? > disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a > remedy has been the recent solution; many > post-modern techniques depend upon it. As > another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, > is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing > the problem of point of view that way. > > Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) > through a combination of directness and > excision, to sustain a complex and even private > sensibility while cracking this self open to > encompass the affairs of a broader world. > Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of > personal experience, but the emphasis is on the > casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an > intense and personal voice. Thus we understand > something about "the human condition" without > relying on confession; a particular personality > is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > > To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to > tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic > lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded > in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing > specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a > philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > > > Connie > > =================================================== avid Graham rahamd at ripon.edu ome Page: ttp://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: ttp://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html =================================================== ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction Wed Nov 4 21:02:16 2009 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:02:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2BD046AD313F-22D0-2264A@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I have a few of those religious beliefs, too, and those who don't accept them are doomed to outer darkness. But I try not to say that too often, or people might think me a bit self-righteous. Of course I could say what I truly believe, that anything beyond a mild admiration for Frost reflects a critical blindspot. What did the guy say? "Now you must change your life." Mark At 08:41 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: >For me Frost is beyond taste or preference. I >consider it a kind of critical blindspot not to >recognize the greatness in Frost, no matter one's predilections. >Dramatic monologues don't need to be resorted >to, do they. They are a type of pome, like the >formal meditation: Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour. >Finnegan > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Graham >To: NewPoetry >Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:55 pm >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost as a great poet > > >I love the anecdote about Pound and Williams, lifelong friendds whose >lifelong aesthetic argument eventually turned into shorthand: "Caviar!" >Pound would say. "Bread!" Williams would reply. > >Frost and Stevens were less friendly, so their version (as reported by >Frost) became "bric-a-brac" vs. "subjects." > > >On 11/4/09 1:47 PM, "Mark Weiss" ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without > resorting to dramatic monologues, > > > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > > > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having > >> spent the summer reintroducing myself to his > >> work) is that his is an alternate response to > >> modernism. he was there, he heard the problems > >> that modernism was attempting to address and > >> grew weary (as i see it) with the romanticism > >> involved with the modernist quandary which was, > >> in the end, a problem of subjectivity--the > >> tendency of the lyric to inhabit a private > >> experiential space that risks???as every lyric > >> poet from Keats on down has noted???becoming > >> solipsistic, or too reliant on the personal > >> confession (a series of events) and/or a > >> particular sensibility as the anchor of a poem. > >> To be accountable for this subjectivity is the > >> honorable thing to do, a ??these are the views of > >> the commentator and not of the station?? > >> disclaimer. Formal self-consciousness as a > >> remedy has been the recent solution; many > >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As > >> another strategy, fracturing or fragmentation, > >> is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, managing > >> the problem of point of view that way. > >> > >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) > >> through a combination of directness and > >> excision, to sustain a complex and even private > >> sensibility while cracking this self open to > >> encompass the affairs of a broader world. > >> Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of > >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the > >> casting of thought, ideas made vibrant by an > >> intense and personal voice. Thus we understand > >> something about "the human condition" without > >> relying on confession; a particular personality > >> is not the subject of these kinds of lyric poems. > >> > >> To me, lately, this is a appealing tactic to > >> tackle some of these issues of the post-romantic > >> lyric. Robert Frost's speakers, while grounded > >> in rural New England, also avoid a narrowing > >> specificity of autobiography, thus achieving a > >> philosophical largeness, one that I crave. > >> > >> > >> Connie > >> > >> > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >==================================================== > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). Forthcoming in November 2009. http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland From Opus40-01 Wed Nov 4 21:26:42 2009 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:26:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost as a great poet In-Reply-To: References: <75A424C3-6B59-45A4-BE24-C199102781AB@ripon.edu> <4D33BC2D-ACF2-48D3-99BF-0CF44E5DC0DA@ripon.edu> <36cb1de80911040926l29353babob7d4040d0027cd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF237E2.70907@opus40.org> Why should dramatic monologues be considered something one has to resort to? Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Check out Stevens, then, who does it without resorting to dramatic > monologues, > > At 12:26 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: > >> one way i have come to think of frost (having spent the summer >> reintroducing myself to his work) is that his is an alternate >> response to modernism. he was there, he heard the problems that >> modernism was attempting to address and grew weary (as i see it) with >> the romanticism involved with the modernist quandary which was, in >> the end, a problem of subjectivity--the tendency of the lyric to >> inhabit a private experiential space that risks?as every lyric poet >> from Keats on down has noted?becoming solipsistic, or too reliant on >> the personal confession (a series of events) and/or a particular >> sensibility as the anchor of a poem. To be accountable for this >> subjectivity is the honorable thing to do, a ?these are the views of >> the commentator and not of the station? disclaimer. Formal >> self-consciousness as a remedy has been the recent solution; many >> post-modern techniques depend upon it. As another strategy, >> fracturing or fragmentation, is an attempt to dislocate the speaker, >> managing the problem of point of view that way. >> >> Frost (and certain Eastern European poets) through a combination of >> directness and excision, to sustain a complex and even private >> sensibility while cracking this self open to encompass the affairs of >> a broader world. Through a quality of reserve, we get an echo of >> personal experience, but the emphasis is on the casting of thought, >> ideas made vibrant by an intense and personal voice. Thus we >> understand something about "the human condition" without relying on >> confession; a particular personality is not the subject of these >> kinds of lyric poems. >> >> To me, lately, this is a appeali