From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri May 1 05:11:47 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] UPDATE - Scary News about Poet Craig Arnold; please pass on. Message-ID: <549576.57140.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >From the Facebook Group "Find Craig Arnold" -- 4/30 11:08 EST: The coordinated efforts of the United States and Japanese government have resulted in a widened and extended search for poet Craig Arnold. We, Craig's family, are enormously grateful for these continued efforts. TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE HELPING US KEEP FAITH WITH CRAIG ARNOLD: RIGHT NOW THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF INFORMATION BEING DISTRIBUTED ON THE INTERNET. THIS FACEBOOK GROUP IS THE ONLY SITE ASSOCIATED WITH CRAIG'S FAMILY. WE ARE BEING FULLY SUPPORTED BY THE U.S. AND JAPANESE GOVERNMENT, AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO US THAT THE AUTHORITIES ARE ABLE TO FOCUS ON CRAIG'S SEARCH. WE WILL CONTINUE TO POST ACCURATE AND UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION ABOUT CRAIG, HIS WHEREABOUTS, AND THE EFFORTS BEING MADE TO FIND HIM. IN THE MEANTIME, PLEASE KEEP BOTH CRAIG AND THE SEARCHERS WHO ARE MAKING GREAT EFFORT TO FIND HIM IN YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS. 4/30 9:20 PM EST: Link to the NPR audio: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103675357 http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=7848&post=29155&uid=74254019683#/group.php?gid=74254019683 _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/543c245b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 11:40:01 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, Anny. I?see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your group. I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a used bookstore in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended last Saturday. I'll have to see if I can find that?same Senghor?poem in my book and compare it to the version put up on Ezra. I can't call it translating but a process I've gone thru in the past is to take 3 previously translated versions (or?more versions, if available), along with the poem in its original language, and then using three?versions and the orginal, I put together (or build)?a fourth version selecting bits and pieces of the three, while consulting the original for guidance on?structure, sound and sense (as much I can make out, that is), and often putting in my own words and phrases along the way,?those elements I believe, based on my judgment and scant evidence I've gleaned from the original, that?will make this new or?'amalgamated translation' the better?poem. This older poem is not about translating per se, but it's related: In Another Language The poem I'll read for you is in a language not our own, you will hear and be lost in an alien land not unlike love itself where those we ask for directions can only shrug and point to town. There is nothing to know or follow, though when I mouth these words you may be moved no less for lack of meaning, something about a river, the shadow of a sparrow upon the wind, or fish just under the surface. Don't try to understand any more than you would ponder a bowl of soup, for it doesn't matter if these are words of a recipe or a psalm. The tongues cut from an old pair of shoes, a shell's ear buried in sand, all the more beautiful for what's left unsaid or that we are unable to say aloud in the vocabulary of lips, grammar of our arms. A child singing beneath a willow like rain or words under wings of geese rising off the lake, hear this as you would hear water running over stones, with as few words as you can make out, like hand, like two, like sleep. - Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider wrote: Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole wrote: Very cool. Anny Ballardini wrote: And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured translator on /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to Paolo Ruffilli for most interesting poetry. Best wishes, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ? -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/800eb603/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 12:02:33 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels Message-ID: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britain on Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post ? held by such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth and Ted Hughes ? has gone to a woman. (from article)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/12f80c70/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 12:12:02 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Broadsided Message-ID: <8CB988EB2DB6108-158-240@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Site that produces downloadable (pdf) broadsides... http://www.broadsidedpress.org/ Their tagline: "Streets look miserable every day /?for lack of?what is found there." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/ab4475a2/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:44:44 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905010944j343a040bvaf7b414dd7219aeb@mail.gmail.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8027767.stm Carol Ann Duffy has been named as the new Poet Laureate, the first woman to be appointed in the 341-year history of the post. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/1363d2fb/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:45:18 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> I should have looked at the list before sending in mine... On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books > > Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britainon Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post ? held by > such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth and Ted Hughes? has gone to a woman. (from article) > ------------------------------ > Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start > now! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/efb0f608/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:58:39 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com> <49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org> <6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905010958n2cca2e4en1bfe9ecfb5b139cc@mail.gmail.com> It's a good poem. It reminded me of when I was a child and I had to make the meaning of the words out. And to learn and understand when *they* were angry or happy, that had more to do with facial expressions and gestures. On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:40 PM, wrote: > I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, Anny. > > I see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your group. > I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a used bookstore > in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended last Saturday. > I'll have to see if I can find that same Senghor poem in my book and > compare it to the version put up on Ezra. > > I can't call it translating but a process I've gone thru in the past is > to take 3 previously translated versions (or more versions, if available), > along with the poem in its original language, and then using three versions > > and the orginal, I put together (or build) a fourth version selecting bits > and > pieces of the three, while consulting the original for guidance > on structure, > sound and sense (as much I can make out, that is), and often putting > in my own words and phrases along the way, those elements I believe, > based on my judgment and scant evidence I've gleaned from the original, > that will make this new or 'amalgamated translation' the better poem. > > This older poem is not about translating per se, but it's related: > > In Another Language > > > The poem I'll read for you > is in a language not our own, > you will hear and be lost > in an alien land not unlike love itself > where those we ask for directions > can only shrug and point to town. > There is nothing to know or follow, > though when I mouth these words > you may be moved no less for lack of meaning, > something about a river, the shadow > of a sparrow upon the wind, or fish > just under the surface. Don't try > to understand any more than you would ponder > a bowl of soup, for it doesn't matter > if these are words of a recipe or a psalm. > The tongues cut from an old pair of shoes, > a shell's ear buried in sand, > all the more beautiful for what's left unsaid > or that we are unable to say aloud > in the vocabulary of lips, grammar > of our arms. A child singing beneath a willow > like rain or words under wings of geese > rising off the lake, hear this > as you would hear water running over stones, > with as few words as you can make out, > like *hand*, like *two*, like *sleep*. > - > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 4:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > > Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole wrote: >> >>> Very cool. >>> >>> Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> >>>> And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured translator on >>>> /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ >>>> http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html >>>> >>>> Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to Paolo Ruffilli >>>> for most interesting poetry. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, Anny >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Anny Ballardini >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>> star! >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tad Richards >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start > now! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/8bde45ee/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 13:11:44 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a wide range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday life. She succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year term. The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering figure in English literature today and a superb poet.? - I know it's typical bureaucratic?hyperbole, but do you think it's possible to be a?'towering figure' in any nation's?literature by writing "witty poems...many to do with the?minutiae of everyday life"? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels I should have looked at the list before sending in mine... On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britain on Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post ? held by such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth and Ted Hughes ? has gone to a woman. (from article)? Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue .it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/64e8fe82/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 1 13:18:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905011018o346b0eb8r2a37e960ba0cb192@mail.gmail.com> It seems a cranky tower from here... Umberto Saba in Italy, graced by the dust of time that has settled on his writings. On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 7:11 PM, wrote: > What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: > > Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a wide > range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday life. She > succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year term. > > The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering figure in > English literature today and a superb poet.? > - > I know it's typical bureaucratic hyperbole, but do you think it's possible > to be a 'towering figure' in any nation's literature by writing "witty > poems...many to do with the minutiae of everyday life"? > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:45 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > I should have looked at the list before sending in mine... > > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books >> >> Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britainon Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post ? held by >> such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth and Ted Hughes? has gone to a woman. (from article) >> ------------------------------ >> Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start >> now! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start > now! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/e2d6a9b7/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Fri May 1 13:39:50 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM, wrote: > What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: > > Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a wide > range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday life. She > succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year term. > > The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering figure in > English literature today and a superb poet.? > - > I know it's typical bureaucratic hyperbole, but do you think it's possible > to be a 'towering figure' in any nation's literature by writing "witty > poems...many to do with the minutiae of everyday life"? > Finnegan > Not so different from Wendy Cope, who rejected the post (wants it abolished) or from Philip Larkin (also rejected it), who many consider the finest English poet of the second half of the last century - or, for that matter, from Emily Dickinson. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/badd8b46/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 1 13:40:19 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Qarrtsiluni Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905011040i38c52a77v886eba4294ba3691@mail.gmail.com> http://qarrtsiluni.com/2009/05/01/call-for-submissions-economy/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/d9cce4bd/attachment.html From editor at pavementsaw.org Fri May 1 13:44:36 2009 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: musicians with poem books Message-ID: <114027.64566.qm@web45602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> sorry this is so late, 3rd time sending! One of our authors was in the Silver Jews: Chris Stroffolino Lee Ranaldo and Thurston Moore of Sonic Y Damon K from Galaxie 500 Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --- On Fri, 5/1/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 1 > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 2:09 PM > Send New-Poetry mailing list > submissions to > ??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > ??? new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ??? new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ???1. Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Anny > Ballardini) > ???2. Bidart awarded LA Times Book Prize (jforjames@aol.com) > ???3. Graywolf editor's notes (jforjames@aol.com) > ???4. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > (TheOldMole) > ???5. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Michael > Snider) > ???6. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Anny > Ballardini) > ???7. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Bob > Grumman) > ???8. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Anny > Ballardini) > ???9. UPDATE - Scary News about Poet Craig > Arnold;??? please pass on. > ? ? ? (amy king) > ? 10. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (jforjames@aol.com) > ? 11. Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels (jforjames@aol.com) > ? 12. Broadsided (jforjames@aol.com) > ? 13. Carol Ann Duffy (Anny Ballardini) > ? 14. Re: Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels (Anny > Ballardini) > ? 15. Re: Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra (Anny Ballardini) > ? 16. Re: Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels (jforjames@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:10:25 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured > translator on *Ezra: > an online journal of translations* > http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > > Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to > Paolo Ruffilli for > most interesting poetry. > > Best wishes, Anny > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/be361201/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:20:19 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Bidart awarded LA Times Book Prize > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB97DFD5BCCB1C-BA0-5F9@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > http://www.latimes.com/extras/bookprizes/ > > Poetry > Frank Bidart, Watching the Spring Festival: Poems > (Farrar, Straus and Giroux) > http://www.fsgpoetry.com/fsg/2009/04/frank-bidart-wins-los-angeles-times-book-prize-for-poetry-.html > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/3aff5f29/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:26:47 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Graywolf editor's notes > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB97E0BCC1C546-BA0-65C@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > Also from the FSG blog, some posts by Graywolf editor Fiona > McCrae: > > http://www.fsgpoetry.com/ > > "Every quarter the staff likes to get a report on the > permissions activity for the period. It???s fascinating > to look at the poems and poets that are most in demand: Tony > Hoagland, Dana Gioia, Natasha Tretheway, Linda Gregg, Eamon > Grennan, Claudia Rankine, Nick Flynn, Katie Ford. If I had > to come up with one quality that unites the most requested > poems, it???s clarity. When we are selecting our poets, > clarity is not a quality that we have in the front of our > minds. Instead, I think we are looking at originality, > complexity, innovation. Perhaps some of our more opaque > poets need to read in the context of their other poems: the > collection as a whole teaches the reader how to fully > understand the work. Or perhaps they need more time to > filter into the wider cultural currents." > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/5b042dbc/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:06:50 -0400 > From: TheOldMole > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: <49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Very cool. > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured > translator on > > /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ > > http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > > > > Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to > Paolo Ruffilli > > for most interesting poetry.. > > > > Best wishes, Anny > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give > birth to a > > dancing star! > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >??? > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:27:14 -0400 > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > > Very cool. > > > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > >> And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the > featured translator on /Ezra: > >> an online journal of translations/ > >> http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > >> > >> Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality > and to Paolo Ruffilli for > >> most interesting poetry. > >> > >> Best wishes, Anny > >> > >> -- > >> Anny Ballardini > >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > >> http://www..fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to > give birth to a dancing > >> star! > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Tad Richards > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/4cc5299e/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:37:07 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > > Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > > >> Very cool. > >> > >> Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> > >>> And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the > featured translator on > >>> /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ > >>> http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > >>> > >>> Thank you to Peter Thompson for his > hospitality and to Paolo Ruffilli for > >>> most interesting poetry. > >>> > >>> Best wishes, Anny > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Anny Ballardini > >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one > to give birth to a dancing > >>> star! > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Tad Richards > >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >> > >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/ec69328a/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:42:31 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: <49FA1B47.7020208@nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > New-Poetry's Number One! > > --Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:56:52 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70904301356p1c35a35bn16aa87ebb89a3b4b@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > nah, > Number 1: Bob Grumman > > Number 1+1+1 : James Finnegan > > Number 1+the World: Amy King > > Number 1=1: Tad Richards > > Number 1-1+1=1: David Graham > > Number 1+music: Michael Snider > > Number 1rhyming1scanning1: R. S. (Sam) Gwynn > > Number 1+Comps: Jeff Newberry > > Number 1+Comps+Jeff Newberry: Al Maginnes > > Number 1+... > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > New-Poetry's Number One! > > > > --Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090430/b823a264/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 02:11:47 -0700 (PDT) > From: amy king > Subject: [New-Poetry] UPDATE - Scary News about Poet Craig > Arnold; > ??? please pass on. > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Message-ID: <549576.57140.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >From the Facebook Group "Find Craig Arnold" -- > > > > > > 4/30 11:08 EST: The coordinated efforts of the United > States and > Japanese government have resulted in a widened and extended > search for > poet Craig Arnold. We, Craig's family, are enormously > grateful for > these continued efforts. > > > > > > TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE HELPING US KEEP > FAITH WITH CRAIG ARNOLD: RIGHT NOW THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF > INFORMATION > BEING DISTRIBUTED ON THE INTERNET. THIS FACEBOOK GROUP IS > THE ONLY SITE > ASSOCIATED WITH CRAIG'S FAMILY. WE ARE BEING FULLY > SUPPORTED BY THE > U.S. AND JAPANESE GOVERNMENT, AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO > US THAT THE > AUTHORITIES ARE ABLE TO FOCUS ON CRAIG'S SEARCH. WE WILL > CONTINUE TO > POST ACCURATE AND UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION ABOUT CRAIG, HIS > WHEREABOUTS, > AND THE EFFORTS BEING MADE TO FIND HIM. IN THE MEANTIME, > PLEASE KEEP > BOTH CRAIG AND THE SEARCHERS WHO ARE MAKING GREAT EFFORT TO > FIND HIM IN > YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS. > > > > 4/30 9:20 PM EST:? Link to the NPR audio:? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103675357 > > > > http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=7848&post=29155&uid=74254019683#/group.php?gid=74254019683 > > > > _______ > > > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > > > > > ? ? ? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/543c245b/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 11:40:01 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, > Anny. > > I?see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your > group. > I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a used > bookstore > in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended last > Saturday. > I'll have to see if I can find that?same Senghor?poem in my > book and > compare it to the version put up on Ezra. > > I can't call it translating but a process I've gone thru in > the past is > to take 3 previously translated versions (or?more versions, > if available), > along with the poem in its original language, and then > using three?versions > and the orginal, I put together (or build)?a fourth version > selecting bits and > pieces of the three, while consulting the original for > guidance on?structure, > sound and sense (as much I can make out, that is), and > often putting > in my own words and phrases along the way,?those elements I > believe, > based on my judgment and scant evidence I've gleaned from > the original, > that?will make this new or?'amalgamated translation' the > better?poem. > > This older poem is not about translating per se, but it's > related: > > In Another Language > > > > The poem I'll read for you > is in a language not our own, > you will hear and be lost > in an alien land not unlike love itself > where those we ask for directions > can only shrug and point to town.. > There is nothing to know or follow, > though when I mouth these words > you may be moved no less for lack of meaning, > something about a river, the shadow > of a sparrow upon the wind, or fish > just under the surface. Don't try > to understand any more than you would ponder > a bowl of soup, for it doesn't matter > if these are words of a recipe or a psalm. > The tongues cut from an old pair of shoes, > a shell's ear buried in sand, > all the more beautiful for what's left unsaid > or that we are unable to say aloud > in the vocabulary of lips, grammar > of our arms. A child singing beneath a willow > like rain or words under wings of geese > rising off the lake, hear this > as you would hear water running over stones, > with as few words as you can make out, > like hand, like two, like sleep. > - > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 4:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > > > > Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider > wrote: > > Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > Very cool. > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > > > > And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured > translator on /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ > http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > > Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to > Paolo Ruffilli for most interesting poetry. > > Best wishes, Anny > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing star! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ? > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing star! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/800eb603/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 12:02:33 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books > > Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britain on > Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post > ??? held by such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth > and Ted Hughes ??? has gone to a woman. (from > article)?? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/12f80c70/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 12:12:02 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Broadsided > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB988EB2DB6108-158-240@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Site that produces downloadable (pdf) broadsides... > http://www.broadsidedpress.org/ > > Their tagline: "Streets look miserable every day /?for lack > of?what is found there." > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/ab4475a2/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:44:44 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70905010944j343a040bvaf7b414dd7219aeb@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8027767.stm > > Carol Ann Duffy has been named as the new Poet Laureate, > the first woman to > be appointed in the 341-year history of the post. > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/1363d2fb/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:45:18 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > I should have looked at the list before sending in mine... > > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, > wrote: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books > > > > Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of > Britainon > Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post > ? held by > > such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth and Ted > Hughes? > has gone to a woman. (from article) > > ------------------------------ > > Join ChristianMingle..com? FREE! Meet Christian > Singles in your area. Start > > now! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/efb0f608/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:58:39 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Message-ID: > ??? <4b65c2d70905010958n2cca2e4en1bfe9ecfb5b139cc@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > It's a good poem. It reminded me of when I was a child and > I had to make the > meaning of the words out. And to learn and understand when > *they* were angry > or happy, that had more to do with facial expressions and > gestures. > > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:40 PM, > wrote: > > > I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, > Anny. > > > > I see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your > group. > > I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a > used bookstore > > in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended > last Saturday. > > I'll have to see if I can find that same Senghor poem > in my book and > > compare it to the version put up on Ezra. > > > > I can't call it translating but a process I've gone > thru in the past is > > to take 3 previously translated versions (or more > versions, if available), > > along with the poem in its original language, and then > using three versions > > > > and the orginal, I put together (or build) a fourth > version selecting bits > > and > > pieces of the three, while consulting the original for > guidance > > on structure, > > sound and sense (as much I can make out, that is), and > often putting > > in my own words and phrases along the way, those > elements I believe, > > based on my judgment and scant evidence I've gleaned > from the original, > > that will make this new or 'amalgamated translation' > the better poem. > > > > This older poem is not about translating per se, but > it's related: > > > > In Another Language > > > > > > The poem I'll read for you > > is in a language not our own, > > you will hear and be lost > > in an alien land not unlike love itself > > where those we ask for directions > > can only shrug and point to town. > > There is nothing to know or follow, > > though when I mouth these words > > you may be moved no less for lack of meaning, > > something about a river, the shadow > > of a sparrow upon the wind, or fish > > just under the surface. Don't try > > to understand any more than you would ponder > > a bowl of soup, for it doesn't matter > > if these are words of a recipe or a psalm. > > The tongues cut from an old pair of shoes, > > a shell's ear buried in sand, > > all the more beautiful for what's left unsaid > > or that we are unable to say aloud > > in the vocabulary of lips, grammar > > of our arms. A child singing beneath a willow > > like rain or words under wings of geese > > rising off the lake, hear this > > as you would hear water running over stones, > > with as few words as you can make out, > > like *hand*, like *two*, like *sleep*. > > - > > > > Finnegan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anny Ballardini > > Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 4:37 pm > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > > > >? Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider > wrote: > > > >> Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve > it! > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > >> > >>> Very cool. > >>> > >>> Anny Ballardini wrote: > >>> > >>>>? And Peter Thompson has made my day! > I am the featured translator on > >>>> /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ > >>>> http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > >>>> > >>>> Thank you to Peter Thompson for his > hospitality and to Paolo Ruffilli > >>>> for most interesting poetry. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes, Anny > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Anny Ballardini > >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in > one to give birth to a dancing > >>>> star! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>>> http://wiz.cath..vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Tad Richards > >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column > today! > >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >>> > >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give > birth to a dancing > > star! > > > >? _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian > Singles in your area. Start > > now! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz..cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/8bde45ee/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 13:11:44 -0400 > From: jforjames@aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: > > > Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty > poems on a wide range of topics, many of them to do with the > minutiae of everyday life. She succeeds Andrew Motion, who > has just completed his 10-year term. > > > > The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy > ???a towering figure in English literature today and a > superb poet.??? > - > I know it's typical bureaucratic??hyperbole, but do you > think it's possible to be a??'towering figure' in any > nation's??literature by writing "witty poems...many to do > with the??minutiae of everyday life"? > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:45 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > > > I should have looked at the list before sending in mine... > > > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, > wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/europe/02poet.html?ref=books > > Carol Ann Duffy was named poet laureate of Britain on > Friday, the first time in its 341-year history that the post > ??? held by such poets as Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth > and Ted Hughes ??? has gone to a woman. (from > article)?? > > Join ChristianMingle.com?? FREE! Meet Christian Singles > in your area. Start now! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot..com/ > http://www.fieralingue > .it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing star! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ew-Poetry mailing list > ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/64e8fe82/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 1 > ***************************************** > From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri May 1 16:45:03 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Call For Papers--2010 Charles Olson Conference In-Reply-To: <12697787.1241203182078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12697787.1241203182078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <648208b60905011345g290ce8f9qcaf53fcc14bed1d1@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jami macarty Date: Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:39 PM Subject: Call For Papers--2010 Charles Olson Conference To: Charles Olson wants you! Please see the CFA below (and attached) for the June 2010 Charles Olson Conference. And, please also, kindly, circulate far and wide--and wider. You're grand! Thanks very much! JM ___________________________________________________________________________ CHARLES OLSON CENTENARY CONFERENCE June 4-6, 2010 Simon Fraser University Vancouver, British Columbia One hundred years after his birth, and fifty years after The New American Poetry anthology transformed the landscape of contemporary poetry, Charles Olson, arguably one of the most influential figures in twentieth century literature, remains a puzzlingly marginalized figure. As Ben Friedlander writes in Olson's Collected Prose, it is "as if the unread Olson were the necessary 3/4 submerged berg making possible the 1/4 ice floe." In the spirit of bringing Olson back into the polis--and delving into the "3/4 submerged" portion of this "maximal" figure---the Charles Olson Centenary Conference seeks new readings of Olson's poetry, poetics, and his influence on twentieth and twenty-first century literature and culture. Topics to be addressed could include (but are not limited to): ? Black Mountain College reconsidered ? The New Canadian Poetry? Olson north of the border ? Olson, economics, and democracy ? Olson, geography, and the spatial turn ? Olson and American history ? Olson and the archive ? Olson / Melville / Shakespeare ? Olson and Mexico ? Olson, Women, and the Feminine ? Olson and his contemporaries ? Olson and 21st century poetry ? Olson's influences/Olson's influence ? Poetry as research ? Poetry and the polis ? The politics of poetic form Please submit abstracts of 250-500 words to Stephen Collis at olson-conference@sfu.ca by October 1 2009. More information and conference updates will be available at http://www.sfu.ca/olson-conference. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/0df6b840/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri May 1 16:56:41 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49FB6209.3010901@opus40.org> I always wanted to teach a course on Poets Who Were National Heroes. I'd have included Burns, Neruda, probably Yevtushenko, Havel and Senghor. jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, Anny. > > I see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your group. > I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a used bookstore > in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended last Saturday. > I'll have to see if I can find that same Senghor poem in my book and > compare it to the version put up on Ezra. > > I can't call it translating but a process I've gone thru in the past is > to take 3 previously translated versions (or more versions, if > available), > along with the poem in its original language, and then using > three versions > and the orginal, I put together (or build) a fourth version selecting > bits and > pieces of the three, while consulting the original for guidance > on structure, > sound and sense (as much I can make out, that is), and often putting > in my own words and phrases along the way, those elements I believe, > based on my judgment and scant evidence I've gleaned from the original, > that will make this new or 'amalgamated translation' the better poem. > > This older poem is not about translating per se, but it's related: > > In Another Language > > > The poem I'll read for you > is in a language not our own, > you will hear and be lost > in an alien land not unlike love itself > where those we ask for directions > can only shrug and point to town. > There is nothing to know or follow, > though when I mouth these words > you may be moved no less for lack of meaning, > something about a river, the shadow > of a sparrow upon the wind, or fish > just under the surface. Don't try > to understand any more than you would ponder > a bowl of soup, for it doesn't matter > if these are words of a recipe or a psalm. > The tongues cut from an old pair of shoes, > a shell's ear buried in sand, > all the more beautiful for what's left unsaid > or that we are unable to say aloud > in the vocabulary of lips, grammar > of our arms. A child singing beneath a willow > like rain or words under wings of geese > rising off the lake, hear this > as you would hear water running over stones, > with as few words as you can make out, > like /hand/, like /two/, like /sleep/. > - > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 4:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra > > Thank you! Yes, that is quite a writeup! > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michael Snider > > wrote: > > Quite a writeup they gave you Anny - you deserve it! > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > Very cool. > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > And Peter Thompson has made my day! I am the featured > translator on /Ezra: an online journal of translations/ > http://ezratranslation.com/Spring_2009.html > > Thank you to Peter Thompson for his hospitality and to > Paolo Ruffilli for most interesting poetry. > > Best wishes, Anny > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing star! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Join ChristianMingle.com^? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. > Start now! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 1 20:46:55 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49FB97FF.90409@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: > > Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a > wide range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday > life. She succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year > term. > > The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering > figure in English literature today and a superb poet.? > - > I know it's typical bureaucratic hyperbole, but do you think it's > possible to be a 'towering figure' in any nation's literature by > writing "witty poems...many to do with the minutiae of everyday life"? > Finnegan Needless to say, I laughed out loud at that. I think Wordsworth was a towering figure in English literature but no laureate since. I know nothing about Duffy--which, sorry, suggests to me she isn't doing anything toweringly interesting. Because, if she were, my friends in poetry would be telling me about it. And, of course, because--if she were--she would certainly not have been up for the post she's been given. Back to being--Bob From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 21:10:06 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Snider Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM, wrote: What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a wide range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday life. She succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year term. The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering figure in English literature today and a superb poet.? - I know it's typical bureaucratic?hyperbole, but do you think it's possible to be a?'towering figure' in any nation's?literature by writing "witty poems...many to do with the?minutiae of everyday life"? Finnegan Not so different from Wendy Cope, who rejected the post (wants it abolished) or?from Philip Larkin (also rejected it), who many consider the finest English poet of the second half of the last century - or, for that matter, from Emily Dickinson. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/13faae2a/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 21:21:02 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB98DB648C9DD2-1344-1992@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> Let's try that again... Michael, I don't want to make too much of that unfortunate juxtaposition?of 'towering'?with 'witty... minutiae', but it did strike me as funny. Wendy Cope was the poet who that complained her poems were all over the web without permission (and payment). Clearly a towering figure. Besides his wittier ones, Larkin wrote a number?many great poems:?his best were either aloof and foreboding or biting and?satirical. Not a towering figure but a figure worth reckoning with Dickinson was of course not the 'Emily Dickinson' in her own lifetime so she's an odd case from the start. But I'd say her oeuvre and rep was made not on the witty little ones, but the strange psycho-philosophical?lyrics that to this day drop one's jaw. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Michael Snider Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM, wrote: What do people think about this snip from the NYT article: Ms. Duffy, 53, is known for writing accessible, often witty poems on a wide range of topics, many of them to do with the minutiae of everyday life. She succeeds Andrew Motion, who has just completed his 10-year term. The culture secretary, Andy Burnham, called Ms. Duffy ?a towering figure in English literature today and a superb poet.? - I know it's typical bureaucratic?hyperbole, but do you think it's possible to be a?'towe ring figure' in any nation's?literature by writing "witty poems...many to do with the?minutiae of everyday life"? Finnegan Not so different from Wendy Cope, who rejected the post (wants it abolished) or?from Philip Larkin (also rejected it), who many consider the finest English poet of the second half of the last century - or, for that matter, from Emily Dickinson. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/08ea1a19/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 1 21:35:31 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> From: jforjames@aol.com << Not so different from Wendy Cope, who rejected the post (wants it abolished) or from Philip Larkin (also rejected it), who many consider the finest English poet of the second half of the last century - or, for that matter, from Emily Dickinson. >> As a point of information, Wendy Cope didn't reject the post, since she was never offered it. (Apart from anything else, she doesn't have much of a body of work behind her.) Some time ago, she said she wouldn't accept it if she were offered it. (I could say the same thing.) As to Larkin, I suspect he had to be offered it (even though the Powers That Be knew he'd turn it down). And now we have Carol Anne Duffy for ten years ... :-((((( (Oh well, at the worst, she's a better poet than Andrew Motion. Which, admittedly, isn't saying much.) U.A.Fanthorpe must be spinning in her grave. Possible women laureates? Anne Stevenson (or is she Technically American?) Libby Houston Liz Lochead -- Robin From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 1 21:44:31 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> Robin, you are quoting Michael, and?not me. But carry on...as always insightful and entertaining. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels From: jforjames@aol.com? ? <>? ? As a point of information, Wendy Cope didn't reject the post, since she was never offered it. (Apart from anything else, she doesn't have much of a body of work behind her.)? ? Some time ago, she said she wouldn't accept it if she were offered it. (I could say the same thing.)? ? As to Larkin, I suspect he had to be offered it (even though the Powers That Be knew he'd turn it down).? ? ? And now we have Carol Anne Duffy for ten years ...? ? ? :-(((((? ? ? (Oh well, at the worst, she's a better poet than Andrew Motion. Which, admittedly, isn't saying much.)? ? U.A.Fanthorpe must be spinning in her grave.? ? ? Possible women laureates?? ? Anne Stevenson (or is she Technically American?)? Libby Houston? Liz Lochead? ? ? -- Robin? ? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/edafb062/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 1 22:07:18 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would be on Fanthorpe. Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 1 23:57:47 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8C B9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6- 1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.s ysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. > > But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. > > (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so > dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) > > ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money > would be on Fanthorpe. > > Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. > > Robin So, Robin, what living poet of all those eligible for the post would you deem towering? Any? I don't like the adjective for poets, myself. I'm not sure I can think of any American poet I'd call towering. My favorites weren't/aren't towering. In England maybe Marlowe, Shakespeare, Milton, Wordsworth and Yeats? None of them seem to me to tower like Beethoven or Wagner. Nor any painters. Except maybe Michelangelo. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 1 23:30:15 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D@RobinLaptopPC> From: "Bob Grumman" > So, Robin, what living poet of all those eligible for the post would you > deem towering? Derek Walcott Edwin Morgan Robin Hamilton From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri May 1 23:47:24 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net> <8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905012047j2a04ceb6g3f9da412748fd539@mail.gmail.com> For next UK Laureate, someone to watch: Jen Hadfield, 31 years old, Cheshire-born. She won the 2009 TS Eliot Prize for Poetry. Sarah Crown's brief clear review in *The Guardian* 25 March 2006, shows Hadfield's fine work: *"Almanacs*, by Jen Hadfield (Bloodaxe, ?7.95) Jen Hadfield revels in language, wielding words with a verve and zest reminiscent of Dylan Thomas. Nouns are recast as verbs and adverbs (a train "pitches boatly / on the rails"); alliteration, as in the description of a dancing girl "threshing in a sheaf of smoke, lanky and lovely as a bootlace", is rife. There's barely a poem that does not contain a treasurably offbeat image; pictures of a night "cankered with trees" or the way "In sun the moor turns harlequin and whisky sours" are worth savouring. In the central narrative sequence, "Lorelei's Lore", the larger-than-life characters - wayward, puckish Skerryman, vagrant Ghosty - leap and cavort through a dynamic north Scottish landscape. Seasons and weather are constantly on the move, and the vitality of the "racing sky / patched and manic" is translated into the poems, sending them dancing and snapping across the page. On occasion Hadfield's energy spills over into breathlessness, and her surge of adjectives and imagery, while gorgeous, can at points feel ungoverned. But ultimately, the vivid exuberance of her language wins you over. This is a refreshing and distinctive debut collection, full of promise." ------------------------------------------------------------ Best, Judy 2009/5/1 Robin Hamilton > From: "Bob Grumman" > > So, Robin, what living poet of all those eligible for the post would you >> deem towering? >> > > Derek Walcott > Edwin Morgan > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090501/9beabec0/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 1 23:47:43 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC><49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net> <8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: > Derek Walcott > Edwin Morgan > > Robin Hamilton ... also, of course, U.A.Fanthorpe, except she's dead. ... and Libby Houston. ... and of others of the the dear dead, Veronica Forrest-Thompson R. {Aside to Bob -- you might be interested in the original editions of Libby's _Stain Glass Raree Show_. R.} From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 06:52:25 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905012047j2a04ceb6g3f9da412748fd539@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8C B9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6- 1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.s ysops.aol.com><92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC><49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net><8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D @RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905012047j2a04ceb6g3f9da412748fd539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FC25E9.4000803@nut-n-but.net> Surely the next one will have to be a black muslim? --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 07:10:01 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8C B9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6- 1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.s ysops.aol.com><92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC><49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net><8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D @RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <49FC2A09.50605@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Derek Walcott ???? Yeeeks. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 07:13:18 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905012047j2a04ceb6g3f9da412748fd539@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8C B9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6- 1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.s ysops.aol.com><92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC><49FBC4BB.1000003@nut-n-but.net><8FDA32D5DE5F4AC5B3A9CE656970DE1D @RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905012047j2a04ceb6g3f9da412748fd539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FC2ACE.9030008@nut-n-but.net> Great to hear, for a change, about what a poet does with the language rather than what he says about his dog or spouse. --Bob From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 12:21:58 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49FC7326.7070901@ogbuji.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I'm always impressed by those who translate. Congrats, Anny. > > I see a Leopold Senghor poem is translated below your group. > I just picked up a Collected Poems of Senghor's in a used bookstore > in Waterville ME where I spent more than I intended last Saturday. > I'll have to see if I can find that same Senghor poem in my book and > compare it to the version put up on Ezra. Hi all, Stumbling back onto Anny's blog, and finding her translation pub (congrats, Anny) led me back to this list, which I haven't visited in ages, thanks to an oppressive workload. I do a bit of translating Senghor and C?saire myself, and I must say LaFrance's rendition is serviceable, but doesn't carry Senghor's sharpness. One of the things about those two poets is not just the mot juste, but also the right word *form*, sometimes outside grammar's covenant, but always styled to remarkable effect. I don't think that comes off in LaFrance's English. BTW, speaking of Ezra, poetry must be creeping back to its rightful place in my brain because a couple of days ago I followed my compulsion to writing: Only one poem for the implosion of Capital - http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/uogbuji/2009/04/only-one-poem-for-the-implosion-of-capital/ I hope to find more time to hang out with you lot this summer. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 12:24:51 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <49FB6209.3010901@opus40.org> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <49FB6209.3010901@opus40.org> Message-ID: <49FC73D3.20006@ogbuji.net> TheOldMole wrote: > I always wanted to teach a course on Poets Who Were National Heroes. I'd > have included Burns, Neruda, probably Yevtushenko, Havel and Senghor. Well, Biafra was a nation, if only for a few years until we were crushed, so I'd like to nominate Christopher Okigbo to your list. He also happens to be one of the greatest modern African poets, and IMO the greatest Nigerian one. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat May 2 12:33:55 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paolo Ruffilli and Ezra In-Reply-To: <49FC73D3.20006@ogbuji.net> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <49FB6209.3010901@opus40.org> <49FC73D3.20006@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <49FC75F3.1080703@opus40.org> I'll probably never teach the course, but I was shooting for one poem per continent (I notice I don't have an Asian on this list - I know I had one, trying to remember who). And there are two Eastern Europeans -- I think I settled on Havel rather than Yevtushenko, because I heard Y read in NY once (at Madison Square Garden!) and he was kinda awful. And no North American because there isn't one - we're not a culture that makes heroes of our poets. Bob Dylan comes closest. I would love to see some of your Senghor translations. And I would love it if someone with real academic standing would pick up this idea and run with it. Uche Ogbuji wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: > >> I always wanted to teach a course on Poets Who Were National Heroes. I'd >> have included Burns, Neruda, probably Yevtushenko, Havel and Senghor. >> > > Well, Biafra was a nation, if only for a few years until we were > crushed, so I'd like to nominate Christopher Okigbo to your list. He > also happens to be one of the greatest modern African poets, and IMO the > greatest Nigerian one. > > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 2 12:44:49 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] National Heroes In-Reply-To: <49FC75F3.1080703@opus40.org> References: <4b65c2d70904301210t62f8b429gdc030e7a3c8cf15e@mail.gmail.com><49FA04DA.2030700@opus40.org><6768ac830904301327p3ecab854i9efadaafcbeb09df@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70904301337t2a793bbu41a755b59f53aa4a@mail.gmail.com> <8CB988A298D784D-158-4A@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <49FB6209.3010901@opus40.org> <49FC73D3.20006@ogbuji.net> <49FC75F3.1080703@opus40.org> Message-ID: On an Indian page called National Heros, Rabrindranath Tagore is listed. Oddly enough, the page seems to be from a site on the sport of squash. But the heroes come from various fields. Tagore is listed as "Poet cum National Leader." http://www.ispsquash.com/Link_NationalHeros.htm ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 2, 2009, at 11:33 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > I'll probably never teach the course, but I was shooting for one > poem per continent (I notice I don't have an Asian on this list - I > know I had one, trying to remember who). And there are two Eastern > Europeans -- I think I settled on Havel rather than Yevtushenko, > because I heard Y read in NY once (at Madison Square Garden!) and > he was kinda awful. And no North American because there isn't one - > we're not a culture that makes heroes of our poets. Bob Dylan comes > closest. > > I would love to see some of your Senghor translations. > > And I would love it if someone with real academic standing would > pick up this idea and run with it. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/140b42ab/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat May 2 13:39:47 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> >But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this.< Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old BBC TV series Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a good slot on Radio 3 that gave air to a lot of poets. A long time ago. How about Katrina Porteous? best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. > > But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. > > (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so > dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) > > ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would be > on Fanthorpe. > > Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 2 13:55:13 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> Message-ID: Hey, I don't know nuthin' 'bout her poetry, but I'm delighted that she's got the sense to demand her butt of sack up front. Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:39 PM, David Bircumshaw < david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this.< >> > > Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old BBC TV series > Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a good slot on Radio 3 that > gave air to a lot of poets. A long time ago. > > How about Katrina Porteous? > > best > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" < > robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > > Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. >> >> But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. >> >> (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so >> dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) >> >> ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would be >> on Fanthorpe. >> >> Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. >> >> Robin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/12052419/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:07:25 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Piano Street Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905021107x1c7d19b9ld2a2dfac32550e6d@mail.gmail.com> Just a quick message to make sure you do not miss the opportunity to watch Leif Ove Andsnes? live performance of Rachmaninoff?s Piano Concerto no 3 (recorded February 2009 in Stockholm) which is freely available online until May 12. Our in-house blogger Patrick Jovell attended this amazing performance and writes a short comment about his own experience of this piano concerto. Read, watch and listen: http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/powerful-leif-ove-andsnes-plays-rach-3-1003/ Have a nice weekend! Best wishes, Johan Sandback Piano Street www.pianostreet.com -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/abb32242/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:25:51 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Piano Street In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905021107x1c7d19b9ld2a2dfac32550e6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905021107x1c7d19b9ld2a2dfac32550e6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll second that recommendation on the basis of his recording with the Oslo Phil. and having heard him play it with the NYP a few years back. And listening's quite enough. Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Just a quick message to make sure you do not miss the > opportunity to watch Leif Ove Andsnes? live performance of > Rachmaninoff?s Piano Concerto no 3 (recorded February 2009 in > Stockholm) which is freely available online until May 12. > > Our in-house blogger Patrick Jovell attended this amazing > performance and writes a short comment about his own > experience of this piano concerto. > Read, watch and listen: > > http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/powerful-leif-ove-andsnes-plays-rach-3-1003/ > > Have a nice weekend! > > Best wishes, > Johan Sandback > Piano Street > www.pianostreet.com > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/10c3cfa5/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat May 2 15:22:06 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" Message-ID: I'm in search of poems (and other writing) that has as its topic-- or as a significant theme-- the "idea" -- not so much ideas in general, but "the idea of the idea" ... what an idea is, how it works, how an idea came to one or was discovered. This probably seems pretty vague, but as some context: I am preparing for a keynote in which I am discussing the history of the concept of the idea from Plato through the transition to the idea as generating something new not revealing a pre-existing form and how that history is an important consideration when contemplating technology, education and creativity... I have a lot of philosophical, linguistic and etymological source material-- and some Dryden, Chaucer, Keats (negative capability) and Eliot (tradition and the individual talent)-- but am looking for a bit more. c From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 2 15:27:04 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tried Wallace Stevens? H "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > I'm in search of poems (and other writing) that has as its topic-- or > as a significant theme-- the "idea" -- not so much ideas in general, > but "the idea of the idea" ... what an idea is, how it works, how an > idea came to one or was discovered. This probably seems pretty vague, > but as some context: I am preparing for a keynote in which I am > discussing the history of the concept of the idea from Plato through > the transition to the idea as generating something new not revealing a > pre-existing form and how that history is an important consideration > when contemplating technology, education and creativity... > > I have a lot of philosophical, linguistic and etymological source > material-- and some Dryden, Chaucer, Keats (negative capability) and > Eliot (tradition and the individual talent)-- but am looking for a bit > more. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/74273ff7/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 15:49:00 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Chris Lott wrote: > I'm in search of poems (and other writing) that has as its topic-- or > as a significant theme-- the "idea" -- not so much ideas in general, > but "the idea of the idea" ... what an idea is, how it works, how an > idea came to one or was discovered. This probably seems pretty vague, > but as some context: I am preparing for a keynote in which I am > discussing the history of the concept of the idea from Plato through > the transition to the idea as generating something new not revealing a > pre-existing form and how that history is an important consideration > when contemplating technology, education and creativity... > > I have a lot of philosophical, linguistic and etymological source > material-- and some Dryden, Chaucer, Keats (negative capability) and > Eliot (tradition and the individual talent)-- but am looking for a bit > more. How about Baldassare Castaglione, Thomas Elyot, Marsilio Ficino and the other early European Platonists. The idea of idea was their bread and tea. More recently I've always thought that John Stuart Mill's "Idea of a University" is in itself as much an "Idea of the institution of ideas." -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 15:55:33 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> References: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <49FCA535.3080806@ogbuji.net> Uche Ogbuji wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > How about Baldassare Castaglione, Thomas Elyot, Marsilio Ficino and the > other early European Platonists. The idea of idea was their bread and > tea. I should say sometimes the "idea of idea" and sometimes "idea of Idea". In other words, like Plato they sometimes went a bit cargo-cult enthusiastic, though you'd be less tempted to ascribe to Plato shades of the pet-de-loup. (And despite that cheeky characterization I definitely had my adolescent period of cargo-cult enthusiasm for the generations of Platonists, and even though I'm more Epicurean in sensibility these days, I do have a soft spot for those old hierophants.) -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 17:30:01 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> I'm as interested in your subject, which seems to me to be epistemology, as I am in poetics, so have my theories that you will probably dislike as much as you do my poetics, Chris, but I thought I'd pipe in that I believe in innate concepts (which I call "urcepts") for circle, person, father, two and so forth, so wonder if in your reading you've come across any speculation as to the origins of a belief in ideas. I particularly wonder what the first idea might have been. Incidentally, thanks for simply mentioning your project--because it got me thinking about the ideas we have that are not innate, and how, according to my theory they are formed. I think they're simply generalities. An idea of pig is simply all one's memories of pigs in a big clot with all the differences between the pigs involved becoming effaced with time until all that's left is a kind of pig-universal. My newest thought is that the brain tags such universals, but I can't figure out how it recognizes them as such before tagging them. Which has nothing to do with your project, just me solipsissing away. Whee, Bob From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 2 16:28:06 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This one might be of use to you, Chris: Proverbs If it is a larger book you will not notice the themes art and nature are identical time as we know it lies on the cusp of human destiny war is an indeterminate sexual agitation people read murder mysteries and watch world news because they are tired and love death Cain rationalized and lied to God; we marked and pardoned him, gave him the first Zion in the land of Nod. The Preacher says: better that two fall into the ditch, sleeping together weather is a circumstance of time knowledge depends on the eyes if you are blind, no one can hear the wind in your throat the wife of patience is a man occupied time is an iron chasuble. Metaphor is fourteen eyes regarding a single stone no eye occupies the same space as any other eye every voice a man has perceives according to its own eye convexity is opulence; concavity despair Thus the seven eyes of God: man watching God's shadow on the cavern wall Therefore is is sometimes is and often is is not or not altogether but partially so this is language, a cup or a vessel: God's weather rain or a storm wind cradled along the land a band of sun gold from horizon to sky --Julia Keeler in *Open Letter* [2nd series, no. 4 (Spring 1973)] "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > I'm in search of poems (and other writing) that has as its topic-- or > as a significant theme-- the "idea" -- not so much ideas in general, > but "the idea of the idea" ... what an idea is, how it works, how an > idea came to one or was discovered. This probably seems pretty vague, > but as some context: I am preparing for a keynote in which I am > discussing the history of the concept of the idea from Plato through > the transition to the idea as generating something new not revealing a > pre-existing form and how that history is an important consideration > when contemplating technology, education and creativity... > > I have a lot of philosophical, linguistic and etymological source > material-- and some Dryden, Chaucer, Keats (negative capability) and > Eliot (tradition and the individual talent)-- but am looking for a bit > more. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/ce902bc5/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 2 16:30:22 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I have it on good authority that the first idea was "Wow!" followed closely by "Whoa!" Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I'm as interested in your subject, which seems to me to be epistemology, as > I am in poetics, so have my theories that you will probably dislike as much > as you do my poetics, Chris, but I thought I'd pipe in that I believe in > innate concepts (which I call "urcepts") for circle, person, father, two and > so forth, so wonder if in your reading you've come across any speculation as > to the origins of a belief in ideas. I particularly wonder what the first > idea might have been. > > Incidentally, thanks for simply mentioning your project--because it got me > thinking about the ideas we have that are not innate, and how, according to > my theory they are formed. I think they're simply generalities. An idea of > pig is simply all one's memories of pigs in a big clot with all the > differences between the pigs involved becoming effaced with time until all > that's left is a kind of pig-universal. My newest thought is that the brain > tags such universals, but I can't figure out how it recognizes them as such > before tagging them. Which has nothing to do with your project, just me > solipsissing away. > > Whee, Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/0f7400c6/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 2 16:31:17 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On May 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I particularly wonder what the first idea might have been. > ================== In the beginning was the Word. Gee, I thought all poets knew that. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/a4ffcd07/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Sat May 2 16:37:49 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> gotta admit I don't kow much aout her poetry either - I was just responding to the description. And "towering" is only hard if there are giants around. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Hey, I don't know nuthin' 'bout her poetry, but I'm delighted > that she's got the sense to demand her butt of sack up front. > > Hal > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:39 PM, David Bircumshaw < > david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this.< >>> >> >> Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old BBC TV series >> Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a good slot on Radio 3 that >> gave air to a lot of poets. A long time ago. >> >> How about Katrina Porteous? >> >> best >> >> >> >> >> >> David Bircumshaw >> Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" < >> robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < >> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels >> >> >> Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. >>> >>> But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. >>> >>> (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so >>> dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) >>> >>> ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would be >>> on Fanthorpe. >>> >>> Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/173cf83d/attachment.html From maryann at corbettdigital.net Sat May 2 16:50:11 2009 From: maryann at corbettdigital.net (maryann) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to some of her poems and articles about her over here: http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody knew it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that are being quoted in the recent articles. Cheers, Maryann Michael Snider wrote: > gotta admit I don't kow much aout her poetry either - I was just > responding to the description. And "towering" is only hard if there > are giants around. > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > > Hey, I don't know nuthin' 'bout her poetry, but I'm delighted > that she's got the sense to demand her butt of sack up front. > > Hal > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:39 PM, David Bircumshaw > > wrote: > > But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on > this.< > > > Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old > BBC TV series Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a > good slot on Radio 3 that gave air to a lot of poets. A long > time ago. > > How about Katrina Porteous? > > best > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > > Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > > Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. > > But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on > this. > > (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find > CAD's poetry so dull that I can't pay enough attention to > it to argue against it.) > > ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my > money would be on Fanthorpe. > > Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/db93cac6/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat May 2 17:00:44 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <648208b60905021400o29c3ddbduac5c769f660c04e@mail.gmail.com> Are words necessary for there to be an idea? First word, first thought? Doubt it. Probably more of a pictograph, which has to please BG! - Jim On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 3:31 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > > On May 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > I particularly wonder what the first idea might have been. > ================== > > > In the beginning was the Word. Gee, I thought all poets knew that. . . . > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/a2a93388/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Sat May 2 17:04:08 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905021404m1975be15pdf200ba444c9edec@mail.gmail.com> Thank you , Maryann. That's an impressive sonnet. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 4:50 PM, maryann wrote: > Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to some > of her poems and articles about her over here: > > http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 > > My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely > anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody knew > it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html > > The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that are > being quoted in the recent articles. > > Cheers, > Maryann > > Michael Snider wrote: > > gotta admit I don't kow much aout her poetry either - I was just responding > to the description. And "towering" is only hard if there are giants around. > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Hey, I don't know nuthin' 'bout her poetry, but I'm delighted >> that she's got the sense to demand her butt of sack up front. >> >> Hal >> >> "Anything is art if an artist says it is." >> --Marcel Duchamp >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:39 PM, David Bircumshaw < >> david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: >> >>> But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this.< >>>> >>> >>> Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old BBC TV >>> series Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a good slot on Radio 3 >>> that gave air to a lot of poets. A long time ago. >>> >>> How about Katrina Porteous? >>> >>> best >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Bircumshaw >>> Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" < >>> robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> >>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < >>> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels >>> >>> >>> Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. >>>> >>>> But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. >>>> >>>> (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so >>>> dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) >>>> >>>> ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would >>>> be on Fanthorpe. >>>> >>>> Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. >>>> >>>> Robin >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/4bd4e755/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 18:17:07 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <49FCC663.9050708@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > > > > On May 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I particularly wonder what the first idea might have been. >> ================== > > In the beginning was the Word. Gee, I thought all poets knew that. . . . Wouldn't that make "the beginning" the first idea? Actually, I believe pre-humans had ideas, and non-humans today do. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/4e0627bf/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 17:33:44 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> Message-ID: <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> maryann wrote: > Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to > some of her poems and articles about her over here: > > http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 > > My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely > anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody > knew it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html > > The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that > are being quoted in the recent articles. Hmmm. Yuck. Some people think John Ruskin's "pathetic fallacy" is any random anthropomorphic trope, but they're wrong. There is nothing wrong with anthropomorphic trope in general. The problem is when a characterization of an inanimate object is meant to carry the *entire* metaphorical force of the expression. *That* is what Ruskin rightly ridiculed, and *that* is how this sonnet offends in spades: ... and stare at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. ... hearing his youth in the distant Latin chanting of a train. Those are the most sophomoric bits to me, and it made it hard for me to appreciate anything else in the poem. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From uche at ogbuji.net Sat May 2 17:37:29 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <49FCBD19.90408@ogbuji.net> You know, on the other hand, it occurs to me that the most famous Poet Laureate, Tennyson, was the most pathetic of the pathetically fallacious, so maybe that's what they look for in the post. --Uche Uche Ogbuji wrote: > maryann wrote: >> Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to >> some of her poems and articles about her over here: >> >> http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 >> >> My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely >> anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody >> knew it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: >> >> http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html >> >> The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that >> are being quoted in the recent articles. > > Hmmm. Yuck. Some people think John Ruskin's "pathetic fallacy" is any > random anthropomorphic trope, but they're wrong. There is nothing wrong > with anthropomorphic trope in general. The problem is when a > characterization of an inanimate object is meant to carry the *entire* > metaphorical force of the expression. *That* is what Ruskin rightly > ridiculed, and *that* is how this sonnet offends in spades: > > ... and stare > at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. > > ... hearing his youth > in the distant Latin chanting of a train. > > Those are the most sophomoric bits to me, and it made it hard for me to > appreciate anything else in the poem. > > -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche From chris at chrislott.org Sat May 2 17:38:58 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob-- you may just be kidding, but I don't really dislike your poetics. In many ways I admire your project (to the extent I understand it), even if I think it's doooooomed... My only dislike it toward those who use attempts to create taxonomies to derive blindly from them valuey systems and hierarchies that are damaging and non-productive. But I lapse into that kind of thing sometimes myself, so it's hard for me to get too worked up about it. c On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I'm as interested in your subject, which seems to me to be epistemology, as > I am in poetics, so have my theories that you will probably dislike as much > as you do my poetics, Chris, but I thought I'd pipe in that I believe in > innate concepts (which I call "urcepts") for circle, person, father, two and > so forth, so wonder if in your reading you've come across any speculation as > to the origins of a belief in ideas. ?I particularly wonder what the first > idea might have been. > > Incidentally, thanks for simply mentioning your project--because it got me > thinking about the ideas we have that are not innate, and how, according to > my theory they are formed. ?I think they're simply generalities. ?An idea of > pig is simply all one's memories of pigs in a big clot with all the > differences between the pigs involved becoming effaced with time until all > that's left is a kind of pig-universal. ?My newest thought is that the brain > tags such universals, but I can't figure out how it recognizes them as such > before tagging them. ?Which has nothing to do with your project, just me > solipsissing away. > > Whee, Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Sat May 2 18:04:55 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905021504tb11cbb7v754342a60ca160a0@mail.gmail.com> This has always seemd to me to be an epistemological poem, from Rosanna Warren: Noon High summer. Plenitude. The granite knoll thrusts through gray soil at the hill crest. Drought: spring is fulfilled. I crouch on the warm skull of New Hampshire. Spikes of parched grass jut through the anthill at my feet, and the whole field grates with small oracles the cicadas scrape between thigh and wing. What do I hold at bay? The idea of harvest, days that ooze . . . From the valley rises the Interstate's purr, the whine of outboards from the lake, a child's voice quarreling. Someone's hammer raps the air, duet with its own knocked echo. Here is the precise dead heart of the living day, the hollow core, the pit around which light thickens, and we eat. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > Bob-- you may just be kidding, but I don't really dislike your > poetics. In many ways I admire your project (to the extent I > understand it), even if I think it's doooooomed... > > My only dislike it toward those who use attempts to create taxonomies > to derive blindly from them valuey systems and hierarchies that are > damaging and non-productive. But I lapse into that kind of thing > sometimes myself, so it's hard for me to get too worked up about it. > > c > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > I'm as interested in your subject, which seems to me to be epistemology, > as > > I am in poetics, so have my theories that you will probably dislike as > much > > as you do my poetics, Chris, but I thought I'd pipe in that I believe in > > innate concepts (which I call "urcepts") for circle, person, father, two > and > > so forth, so wonder if in your reading you've come across any speculation > as > > to the origins of a belief in ideas. I particularly wonder what the > first > > idea might have been. > > > > Incidentally, thanks for simply mentioning your project--because it got > me > > thinking about the ideas we have that are not innate, and how, according > to > > my theory they are formed. I think they're simply generalities. An idea > of > > pig is simply all one's memories of pigs in a big clot with all the > > differences between the pigs involved becoming effaced with time until > all > > that's left is a kind of pig-universal. My newest thought is that the > brain > > tags such universals, but I can't figure out how it recognizes them as > such > > before tagging them. Which has nothing to do with your project, just me > > solipsissing away. > > > > Whee, Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/98cbbbfc/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat May 2 18:23:24 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> Message-ID: <004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I do say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at the end conveys to US readers but coupling that with steam trains and litany, you might call it 'high cosiness'. Surprised it misses out The Archers. I've always found the piece reminds of that DH Lawrence poem about childhood, the Piano is it? David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: maryann To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to some of her poems and articles about her over here: http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody knew it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that are being quoted in the recent articles. Cheers, Maryann Michael Snider wrote: gotta admit I don't kow much aout her poetry either - I was just responding to the description. And "towering" is only hard if there are giants around. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Hey, I don't know nuthin' 'bout her poetry, but I'm delighted that she's got the sense to demand her butt of sack up front. Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:39 PM, David Bircumshaw wrote: But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this.< Not much to say, Rob. there's one Duffy poem, about the old BBC TV series Top of the Form, which I liked. She used to do a good slot on Radio 3 that gave air to a lot of poets. A long time ago. How about Katrina Porteous? best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels Sorry, Jim, I *was a bit unsure as to who I was picking up on. But if you think I'm bad, wait till the Birk chimes in on this. (I was hesitant about getting involved here, as I find CAD's poetry so dull that I can't pay enough attention to it to argue against it.) ... but if you could nominate a Recent Dead Poet, my money would be on Fanthorpe. Applying the 100 Years Rule, I suspect she'll be there. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/d9844e67/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 20:26:02 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <648208b60905021400o29c3ddbduac5c769f660c04e@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> <648208b60905021400o29c3ddbduac5c769f660c04e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FCE49A.7020508@nut-n-but.net> James Cervantes wrote: > Are words necessary for there to be an idea? First word, first > thought? Doubt it. Probably more of a pictograph, which has to > please BG! > > - Jim I agree. Or a smell--as the idea of The Enemy for an amoeba. . . . --Bob From mandolin at mikesnider.org Sat May 2 19:27:42 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCE49A.7020508@nut-n-but.net> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> <648208b60905021400o29c3ddbduac5c769f660c04e@mail.gmail.com> <49FCE49A.7020508@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905021627h3d31ed8dt309ebc611cc154ac@mail.gmail.com> Seems to me epistemology concerns the representation of sensation, or consciousness of sensation, rahther than sensation itself. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > James Cervantes wrote: > >> Are words necessary for there to be an idea? First word, first thought? >> Doubt it. Probably more of a pictograph, which has to please BG! >> >> - Jim >> > I agree. Or a smell--as the idea of The Enemy for an amoeba. . . . > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/9e497d53/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 20:40:06 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com> <8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com><49FC B203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <49FCE7E6.8040708@nut-n-but.net> David Bircumshaw wrote: > I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, > rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I > do say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at > the end conveys to US readers I was wondering about that. Wuzzit mean? (I thought the poem okay but nothing special.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/87007f58/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 20:43:31 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <49FCE8B3.4030401@nut-n-but.net> > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > But nobody's an artist unless **I** say so. --Bob Grumman From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat May 2 19:47:52 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCE8B3.4030401@nut-n-but.net> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> <49FCE8B3.4030401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <49FCDBA8.1000108@opus40.org> His newfound power is going to his head. Where do I send the application? Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> "Anything is art if an artist says it is." >> --Marcel Duchamp >> > But nobody's an artist unless **I** say so. > --Bob Grumman > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat May 2 19:50:22 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> oh dear, and welcome back, Uche. I'm a relative newcomer to NP, but recall Robin having talked so well of you, of your being on NP some time ago. I've been wanting to like Carol Duffy's poems, really really wanting to like them. But I do not. Without using poetry jargon, I'll say that her work's pedestrian and 'reaches' hard to do poetic things. I do not feel that she's mediocre *because* she is popular or *because* she writes simply; these are not qualities that militate against excellent poetry. She gives no fresh-beauty collidings of words and images, and a reader feels as if it's necessary to help her along somehow whilst reading her poems. The Latin chanting of a train perhaps theoretically could work, but it actually fails frightfully. None of its called-up images works happily with the others. Here is a train chanting, and one thinks of nuns with rosary beads saying "Hail Marys" whilst rounding the tracks towards Houston Station. The little engine that could [pray in Latin]. Just not an image that evokes much besides an imminent train crash or ruler-slaps and paddlings, or for us in the USA, Sally Field in *The Flying Nun* nuisancely flying round the tracks. If Duffy has had editors, and surely she has, then WHAT WERE THEY THINKING, besides ignoring their job as editors? Did they say to themselves: "Aha! Just what the young folk want--simple stuff that passes as poetry! YES! Work up a study guide or two, a few lovely syllabi to tuck into those deliciously heavy backpacks!" And some of the editors had to be saying: "Do not touch her 'common touch'---it's pure, it's her, it's them, it's The New Something!" Again, I will say what I always say: writing good poetry's damned difficult. I have done a good poem or two and can't figure out how I did them. All the rest of mine are crap, tho hardwon crap. And I don't get better at it. I just get more aware of how awful it is. But folks---I'm not applying to be a Poet Laureate of anybody's country! However, now I think I might just go ahead and apply. P'raps in 10 years, with a nice polished new double citizenship [USA and UK], I'll be recognised as writing the New Something poetry and be in line to demand 600 butts of sack. Best, Judy 2009/5/2 Uche Ogbuji > maryann wrote: > > Hello, new member here. We're amassing a fair collection of links to > > some of her poems and articles about her over here: > > > > http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=7440 > > > > My introduction to her was her sonnet "Prayer," which is widely > > anthologized. I figured it hadn't been mentioned here because everybody > > knew it, but in case I'm wrong, here's a link: > > > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/987.html > > > > The sonnet appeals to me much more than the sly and amusing pieces that > > are being quoted in the recent articles. > > Hmmm. Yuck. Some people think John Ruskin's "pathetic fallacy" is any > random anthropomorphic trope, but they're wrong. There is nothing wrong > with anthropomorphic trope in general. The problem is when a > characterization of an inanimate object is meant to carry the *entire* > metaphorical force of the expression. *That* is what Ruskin rightly > ridiculed, and *that* is how this sonnet offends in spades: > > ... and stare > at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. > > ... hearing his youth > in the distant Latin chanting of a train. > > Those are the most sophomoric bits to me, and it made it hard for me to > appreciate anything else in the poem. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/b908e290/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 22:46:19 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCDBA8.1000108@opus40.org> References: <49FCBB59.8030503@nut-n-but.net> <49FCE8B3.4030401@nut-n-but.net> <49FCDBA8.1000108@opus40.org> Message-ID: <49FD057B.6020206@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > His newfound power is going to his head. > > Where do I send the application? The application goes to my office in Manhattan. My name and "Empire State Building" on the envelope should get it there. The $500.00 fee should be sent directly to me in Port Charlotte, Florida 33952, though (1708 Hayworth Road). Cash or check. Mr. G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 2 22:51:00 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><458E787A 7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com><92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505 @RobinLaptopPC><4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162><6 768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com><49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FD0694.4040501@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > oh dear, and welcome back, Uche. I'm a relative newcomer to NP, but > recall Robin having talked so well of you, of your being on NP some > time ago. > > I've been wanting to like Carol Duffy's poems, really really wanting > to like them. But I do not. Without using poetry jargon, I'll say > that her work's pedestrian and 'reaches' hard to do poetic things. I > do not feel that she's mediocre *because* she is popular or *because* > she writes simply; these are not qualities that militate against > excellent poetry. > > She gives no fresh-beauty collidings of words and images, and a reader > feels as if it's necessary to help her along somehow whilst reading > her poems. The Latin chanting of a train perhaps theoretically could > work, but it actually fails frightfully. None of its called-up images > works happily with the others. Here is a train chanting, and one > thinks of nuns with rosary beads saying "Hail Marys" whilst rounding > the tracks towards Houston Station. The little engine that could > [pray in Latin]. Just not an image that evokes much besides an > imminent train crash or ruler-slaps and paddlings, or for us in the > USA, Sally Field in *The Flying Nun* nuisancely flying round the tracks. > > If Duffy has had editors, and surely she has, then WHAT WERE THEY > THINKING, besides ignoring their job as editors? Did they say to > themselves: "Aha! Just what the young folk want--simple stuff that > passes as poetry! YES! Work up a study guide or two, a few lovely > syllabi to tuck into those deliciously heavy backpacks!" And some of > the editors had to be saying: "Do not touch her 'common touch'---it's > pure, it's her, it's them, it's The New Something!" > > Again, I will say what I always say: writing good poetry's damned > difficult. > > I have done a good poem or two and can't figure out how I did them. > All the rest of mine are crap, tho hardwon crap. And I don't get > better at it. I just get more aware of how awful it is. > > But folks---I'm not applying to be a Poet Laureate of anybody's > country! However, now I think I might just go ahead and apply. > P'raps in 10 years, with a nice polished new double citizenship [USA > and UK], I'll be recognised as writing the New Something poetry and be > in line to demand 600 butts of sack. Yeeks, Judy, you think being recognized as "writing the New Something poetry" will get you anywhere with bigTime awards-bestowers?! --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat May 2 22:10:35 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FD0694.4040501@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> <49FD0694.4040501@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905021910q66c026cdu32be38f254428571@mail.gmail.com> You betcha, Bobbo! Damn straight! Full steam ahead [the little engine that could (read Latin)]! And all that rot and rubbish! I don't care if it's published and sanctioned and sanctified! I write what I write because I write, damn it! Don't you, too? Best, Judy 2009/5/2 Bob Grumman > Judy Prince wrote: > >> oh dear, and welcome back, Uche. I'm a relative newcomer to NP, but >> recall Robin having talked so well of you, of your being on NP some time >> ago. >> >> I've been wanting to like Carol Duffy's poems, really really wanting to >> like them. But I do not. Without using poetry jargon, I'll say that her >> work's pedestrian and 'reaches' hard to do poetic things. I do not feel >> that she's mediocre *because* she is popular or *because* she writes simply; >> these are not qualities that militate against excellent poetry. >> She gives no fresh-beauty collidings of words and images, and a reader >> feels as if it's necessary to help her along somehow whilst reading her >> poems. The Latin chanting of a train perhaps theoretically could work, but >> it actually fails frightfully. None of its called-up images works happily >> with the others. Here is a train chanting, and one thinks of nuns with >> rosary beads saying "Hail Marys" whilst rounding the tracks towards Houston >> Station. The little engine that could [pray in Latin]. Just not an image >> that evokes much besides an imminent train crash or ruler-slaps and >> paddlings, or for us in the USA, Sally Field in *The Flying Nun* nuisancely >> flying round the tracks. >> If Duffy has had editors, and surely she has, then WHAT WERE THEY >> THINKING, besides ignoring their job as editors? Did they say to >> themselves: "Aha! Just what the young folk want--simple stuff that passes >> as poetry! YES! Work up a study guide or two, a few lovely syllabi to tuck >> into those deliciously heavy backpacks!" And some of the editors had to be >> saying: "Do not touch her 'common touch'---it's pure, it's her, it's them, >> it's The New Something!" >> >> Again, I will say what I always say: writing good poetry's damned >> difficult. >> I have done a good poem or two and can't figure out how I did them. All >> the rest of mine are crap, tho hardwon crap. And I don't get better at it. >> I just get more aware of how awful it is. >> But folks---I'm not applying to be a Poet Laureate of anybody's country! >> However, now I think I might just go ahead and apply. P'raps in 10 years, >> with a nice polished new double citizenship [USA and UK], I'll be recognised >> as writing the New Something poetry and be in line to demand 600 butts of >> sack. >> > Yeeks, Judy, you think being recognized as "writing the New Something > poetry" will get you anywhere with bigTime awards-bestowers?! > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090502/5c3d59e5/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun May 3 01:54:34 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905010945w36ac9b09rf6718ca61c654169@mail.gmail.com><8CB9897095D2578-158-5B3@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <6768ac830905011039p16a8198ct3b07192902dba35@mail.gmail.com><8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC><8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC><4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162><6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com><49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net><004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> <49FCE7E6.8040708@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Duffy grew up in the industrial English Midlands in the 1950s and 60s ( as I did too) and the poem is really a set of ready-wrapped images of such a childhood. I've been asking myself whether I'm being too hard on it because I recognise the appeal of regresive emotional comforters. But I don't think I am: I recognise its insiduous appeal. I think the train's chanting is Latin because it is a steam engine i.e outmoded and somewhat remote like the sound of monks on a recording. The image is like the sound effects in Inspector Morse: snazzy tat. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 1:40 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels David Bircumshaw wrote: I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I do say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at the end conveys to US readers I was wondering about that. Wuzzit mean? (I thought the poem okay but nothing special.) --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/a90c95d7/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun May 3 02:44:53 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> <49FCE7E6.8040708@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905022344g137e6005m33b827a58fa39541@mail.gmail.com> Sorry to disagree with those who criticize this poem in a negative way. I find it quite emotional, deep, and having a life of its own. English poetry is studded by "prayers" as much as Italian "poetry" and poetry in general and since the very beginning, see the opening salute to the Muses. One of the fundamental prerequisites of a poet is humility. It is right from the beginning that you can separate the good from the bad. On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:54 AM, David Bircumshaw < david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > Duffy grew up in the industrial English Midlands in the 1950s and 60s ( > as I did too) and the poem is really a set of ready-wrapped images of such a > childhood. > I've been asking myself whether I'm being too hard on it because I > recognise the appeal of regresive emotional comforters. But I don't think I > am: I recognise its insiduous appeal. > I think the train's chanting is Latin because it is a steam engine i.e > outmoded and somewhat remote like the sound of monks on a recording. The > image is like the sound effects in Inspector Morse: snazzy tat. > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bob Grumman > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2009 1:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > David Bircumshaw wrote: > > I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, > rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I do > say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at the end > conveys to US readers > > I was wondering about that. Wuzzit mean? (I thought the poem okay but > nothing special.) > > --Bob > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/6cce013d/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun May 3 03:45:51 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905022344g137e6005m33b827a58fa39541@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> I agree with you that the poem is emotional, Anny, but I fear it's something of an emotional trap. Non-British readers probably wouldn't realise this about the Shipping Forecast which the last lines quote but in the 1950s and early 60s the BBC channel on which it is broadcast , nowadays BBC Radio 4, was then called 'the Home Service'. It was one of only three channels. People of Duffy's (or my) generation were among the last to grow up with radio as the main live intrusion of the big world outside and the litanical like recital of Shipping areas early in the morning bundles a whole set of fixed stereotyped responses. Prayer comes harder than that (other than the Lord's Prayer, which is a special case) best dave -- David Bircumshaw http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ---- Anny Ballardini wrote: > Sorry to disagree with those who criticize this poem in a negative way. I > find it quite emotional, deep, and having a life of its own. English poetry > is studded by "prayers" as much as Italian "poetry" and poetry in general > and since the very beginning, see the opening salute to the Muses. One of > the fundamental prerequisites of a poet is humility. It is right from the > beginning that you can separate the good from the bad. > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:54 AM, David Bircumshaw < > david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > Duffy grew up in the industrial English Midlands in the 1950s and 60s ( > > as I did too) and the poem is really a set of ready-wrapped images of such a > > childhood. > > I've been asking myself whether I'm being too hard on it because I > > recognise the appeal of regresive emotional comforters. But I don't think I > > am: I recognise its insiduous appeal. > > I think the train's chanting is Latin because it is a steam engine i.e > > outmoded and somewhat remote like the sound of monks on a recording. The > > image is like the sound effects in Inspector Morse: snazzy tat. > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Bob Grumman > > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2009 1:40 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > > > David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > > I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, > > rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I do > > say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at the end > > conveys to US readers > > > > I was wondering about that. Wuzzit mean? (I thought the poem okay but > > nothing special.) > > > > --Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun May 3 05:27:54 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <4b65c2d70905022344g137e6005m33b827a58fa39541@mail.gmail.com> <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905030227sf01fa1k90f40fce4c390622@mail.gmail.com> I can understand what you mean, David. thank you for clarifying. On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:45 AM, wrote: > I agree with you that the poem is emotional, Anny, but I fear it's > something of an emotional trap. > > Non-British readers probably wouldn't realise this about the Shipping > Forecast which the last lines quote but in the 1950s and early 60s the BBC > channel on which it is broadcast , nowadays BBC Radio 4, was then called > 'the Home Service'. It was one of only three channels. People of Duffy's (or > my) generation were among the last to grow up with radio as the main live > intrusion of the big world outside and the litanical like recital of > Shipping areas early in the morning bundles a whole set of fixed stereotyped > responses. > Prayer comes harder than that (other than the Lord's Prayer, which is a > special case) > > best > > dave > > > -- > David Bircumshaw > > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > ---- Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Sorry to disagree with those who criticize this poem in a negative way. I > > find it quite emotional, deep, and having a life of its own. English > poetry > > is studded by "prayers" as much as Italian "poetry" and poetry in general > > and since the very beginning, see the opening salute to the Muses. One of > > the fundamental prerequisites of a poet is humility. It is right from the > > beginning that you can separate the good from the bad. > > > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:54 AM, David Bircumshaw < > > david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > > > Duffy grew up in the industrial English Midlands in the 1950s and 60s > ( > > > as I did too) and the poem is really a set of ready-wrapped images of > such a > > > childhood. > > > I've been asking myself whether I'm being too hard on it because I > > > recognise the appeal of regresive emotional comforters. But I don't > think I > > > am: I recognise its insiduous appeal. > > > I think the train's chanting is Latin because it is a steam engine i.e > > > outmoded and somewhat remote like the sound of monks on a recording. > The > > > image is like the sound effects in Inspector Morse: snazzy tat. > > > > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > *From:* Bob Grumman > > > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views< > new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > > *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2009 1:40 AM > > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > > > > > > David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > > > > I'd forgotten about 'Prayer' - it's a very effective piece of kitsch, > > > rhythmically as well as in its projections of blurry sentiment. Note I > do > > > say 'effective' . I don't know how much the shipping forecast at the > end > > > conveys to US readers > > > > > > I was wondering about that. Wuzzit mean? (I thought the poem okay but > > > nothing special.) > > > > > > --Bob > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/678acfbe/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun May 3 06:08:19 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Oliver on the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905030308y302b612fy4e481807afbc44de@mail.gmail.com> This poem seems beautiful to me while listening to Out of the Night by Einaudi, it might change in other circumstances. In Blackwater Woods by Mary Oliver Look, the trees are turning their own bodies into pillars of light, are giving off the rich fragrance of cinnamon and fulfillment, the long tapers of cattails are bursting and floating away over the blue shoulders of the ponds, and every pond, no matter what its name is, is nameless now. Every year everything I have ever learned in my lifetime leads back to this: the fires and the black river of loss whose other side is salvation, whose meaning none of us will ever know. To live in this world you must be able to do three things: to love what is mortal; to hold it against your bones knowing your own life depends on it; and, when the time comes to let it go, to let it go. "In Blackwater Woods" by Mary Oliver, from *American Primitive*. ? Back Bay Books, 1983. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/9522eedc/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 3 07:37:56 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:51:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <49FD8214.1040000@nut-n-but.net> david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com wrote: > I agree with you that the poem is emotional, Anny, but I fear it's something of an emotional trap. > > Non-British readers probably wouldn't realise this about the Shipping Forecast which the last lines quote but in the 1950s and early 60s the BBC channel on which it is broadcast , nowadays BBC Radio 4, was then called 'the Home Service'. It was one of only three channels. People of Duffy's (or my) generation were among the last to grow up with radio as the main live intrusion of the big world outside and the litanical like recital of Shipping areas early in the morning bundles a whole set of fixed stereotyped responses. > Prayer comes harder than that (other than the Lord's Prayer, which is a special case) > > best > > dave I'm a little unclear here, Dave. Sounds to me like Duffy is doing what I think poets should do (at least some of the time) and I almost always try to do--pick accessible, emotionally-resonant images and make a poem out of them. For instance, I've more than once centered my boyhood treehut in poems. Very standard--but it seems to me it's not the iimages that count but how you use them. My problem with Duffy's poem is not that it isn't a good poem, but that I feel there are hundreds of poets around making poems as good as it, only a few of whom are getting the publicity and money for it that she is, and dozens making better ones, none of whom is getting any publicity and money for it. --Bob From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun May 3 11:30:01 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels References: <20090503084551.0UENN.759202.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <49FD8214.1040000@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Well, Bob, on the first matter I'd nod the head towards the ghost of I.A.Richards and 'Practical Criticism' and 'stock association ... ... while on the second, yes, it's true, there's always at least two or three in the chorus whose voices are just as good as the leads, if not better. best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels > david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com wrote: >> I agree with you that the poem is emotional, Anny, but I fear it's >> something of an emotional trap. >> >> Non-British readers probably wouldn't realise this about the Shipping >> Forecast which the last lines quote but in the 1950s and early 60s the >> BBC channel on which it is broadcast , nowadays BBC Radio 4, was then >> called 'the Home Service'. It was one of only three channels. People of >> Duffy's (or my) generation were among the last to grow up with radio as >> the main live intrusion of the big world outside and the litanical like >> recital of Shipping areas early in the morning bundles a whole set of >> fixed stereotyped responses. Prayer comes harder than that (other than >> the Lord's Prayer, which is a special case) >> >> best >> >> dave > I'm a little unclear here, Dave. Sounds to me like Duffy is doing what I > think poets should do (at least some of the time) and I almost always try > to do--pick accessible, emotionally-resonant images and make a poem out of > them. For instance, I've more than once centered my boyhood treehut in > poems. Very standard--but it seems to me it's not the iimages that count > but how you use them. My problem with Duffy's poem is not that it isn't a > good poem, but that I feel there are hundreds of poets around making poems > as good as it, only a few of whom are getting the publicity and money for > it that she is, and dozens making better ones, none of whom is getting any > publicity and money for it. > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 3 13:02:49 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> Message-ID: I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as arbitrary as it feels? c On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:43 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Your ear is probably better than mine. But how do you scan the second line? > Or the 6th without stressing the wrong syllables? > > Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 4/29/2009 11:02:35 AM Central Daylight Time, >> Opus40-01@opus40.org writes: >>> >>> Doesn't scan. >>> >>> Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > ? ? Letter of Resignation >>> > >>> >by William Baer >>> > >>> > >>> >Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, >>> >without qualm, scruple, or further delay, >>> >I hereby tender my formal resignation >>> >as your lover and future fianc?. >>> >The job provides too little satisfaction: >>> >too many hours of unneeded duress, >>> >a paucity of productive interaction, >>> >uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>> >Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: >>> >advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, >>> >my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, >>> >and benefits are few and far between. >>> >This document, I'm hopeful, underscores >>> >my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... >>> > >>> >"Letter of Resignation" by William Baer from /Bocage and Other >>> >Sonnets/. ? Texas Review Press, 2008. Reprinted with permission. (buy >>> >now >>> >) >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Anny Ballardini >>> >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a >>> >dancing star! >>> > >>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >>> -- >>> Tad Richards >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> Scans pretty well for me, at least as well as a Donne sonnet. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 13:10:51 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> Message-ID: <49FDD01B.2060201@opus40.org> I'm chicken. I know there are people here so much more qualified than I to undertake this. Chris Lott wrote: > I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on > the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as > arbitrary as it feels? > > c > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:43 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> Your ear is probably better than mine. But how do you scan the second line? >> Or the 6th without stressing the wrong syllables? >> >> Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 4/29/2009 11:02:35 AM Central Daylight Time, >>> Opus40-01@opus40.org writes: >>> >>>> Doesn't scan. >>>> >>>> Anny Ballardini wrote: >>>> >>>>> Letter of Resignation >>>>> >>>>> by William Baer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, >>>>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay, >>>>> I hereby tender my formal resignation >>>>> as your lover and future fianc?. >>>>> The job provides too little satisfaction: >>>>> too many hours of unneeded duress, >>>>> a paucity of productive interaction, >>>>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>>>> Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: >>>>> advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, >>>>> my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, >>>>> and benefits are few and far between. >>>>> This document, I'm hopeful, underscores >>>>> my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... >>>>> >>>>> "Letter of Resignation" by William Baer from /Bocage and Other >>>>> Sonnets/. ? Texas Review Press, 2008. Reprinted with permission. (buy >>>>> now >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Anny Ballardini >>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a >>>>> dancing star! >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tad Richards >>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>>> >>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> Scans pretty well for me, at least as well as a Donne sonnet. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 3 13:12:20 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scanned In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> Message-ID: I've never seen the experts agree on *any* specific scansion, I don't think. Which doesn't mean it's utterly arbitrary: if someone calls a 5 syllable foot an iamb they're just wrong. But there is so much disagreement about allowable substitutions (how loose is too loose); what individual ears hear as stress; matters of regional accents; changes of taste over time; etc., that scansion often *seems* purely arbitrary. Not to mention the many competing systems of gridding-out metrics. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 3, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on > the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as > arbitrary as it feels? > > c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/5212ed15/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 13:16:48 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Chris, I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that scansion depends upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's response to/interpretation of the poet's words? Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm OTTing about it here, and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so few folk recognise scansion's role as a wonderfully useful *variously-applied* medium. Best, Judy 2009/5/3 Chris Lott > I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on > the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as > arbitrary as it feels? > > c > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:43 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > Your ear is probably better than mine. But how do you scan the second > line? > > Or the 6th without stressing the wrong syllables? > > > > Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: > >> > >> In a message dated 4/29/2009 11:02:35 AM Central Daylight Time, > >> Opus40-01@opus40.org writes: > >>> > >>> Doesn't scan. > >>> > >>> Anny Ballardini wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Letter of Resignation > >>> > > >>> >by William Baer > >>> >< > http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,fw37,dv,gctn,8fn9,3hrs,fxvj> > >>> > > >>> >Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, > >>> >without qualm, scruple, or further delay, > >>> >I hereby tender my formal resignation > >>> >as your lover and future fianc?. > >>> >The job provides too little satisfaction: > >>> >too many hours of unneeded duress, > >>> >a paucity of productive interaction, > >>> >uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. > >>> >Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: > >>> >advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, > >>> >my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, > >>> >and benefits are few and far between. > >>> >This document, I'm hopeful, underscores > >>> >my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... > >>> > > >>> >"Letter of Resignation" by William Baer from /Bocage and Other > >>> >Sonnets/. ? Texas Review Press, 2008. Reprinted with permission. (buy > >>> >now > >>> >< > http://www.elabs7.com/c.html?rtr=on&s=fj6,fw37,dv,8k38,fopj,3hrs,fxvj>) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >-- > >>> >Anny Ballardini > >>> >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > >>> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > >>> >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > >>> >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > >>> >dancing star! > >>> > > >>> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > > >>> >_______________________________________________ > >>> >New-Poetry mailing list > >>> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > > >>> -- > >>> Tad Richards > >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >>> > >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > >> Scans pretty well for me, at least as well as a Donne sonnet. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > > Tad Richards > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/c02c6071/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 13:22:17 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scanned In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> Message-ID: <49FDD2C9.2000208@opus40.org> Yeah, but if you start with the premise of an accentual-syllabic line, can't you then chart the variations from that pattern? And at a certain point (which may change from reader to reader), aren't you going to say "too many variations -- this just doesn't scan"? Or "too many places where the accent wants to fall on the wrong syllable -- this just doesn't scan"? David Graham wrote: > I've never seen the experts agree on *any* specific scansion, I don't > think. Which doesn't mean it's utterly arbitrary: if someone calls a > 5 syllable foot an iamb they're just wrong. But there is so much > disagreement about allowable substitutions (how loose is too loose); > what individual ears hear as stress; matters of regional accents; > changes of taste over time; etc., that scansion often *seems* purely > arbitrary. Not to mention the many competing systems of gridding-out > metrics. . . . > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On May 3, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > >> I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on >> >> the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as >> >> arbitrary as it feels? >> >> >> c >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun May 3 13:31:19 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scanned Message-ID: My scansion is right. Yours is wrong. Kind of like God. **************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222376998x1201454298/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=M ay5309AvgfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/a3cd5206/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 3 13:33:26 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Scanned In-Reply-To: <49FDD2C9.2000208@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <49FDD2C9.2000208@opus40.org> Message-ID: All true, but it gets complicated fast, no? For the point at which I personally think "too many variations" is likely not the same point at which Robert Frost does, or Alexander Pope, or Richard Wilbur. There are moments in Frost's blank verse poems, for instance, where it seems that any line of oh, 9 to 13 syllables with a couple iambs in it, can "count." Plus the fact that educated ears nonetheless will frequently hear stress differently in any given line. I first came to these conclusions many years ago after I made a little post-graduate project of boning up on prosody, realizing that my MFA program required absolutely no attention to the subject. So I read many of the accepted major texts, and soon discovered (a) a great deal of certainty of tone, and (b) frequent disagreement, expert to expert, on just about EVERYTHING. Having said all this, I will, of course, defer to the actual experts among us (Sam?) on most matters. But that won't alter my opinion that the degree to which many prosodists sound sure of themselves is often in proportion to how highly contested things are. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 3, 2009, at 12:22 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Yeah, but if you start with the premise of an accentual-syllabic > line, can't you then chart the variations from that pattern? And at > a certain point (which may change from reader to reader), aren't > you going to say "too many variations -- this just doesn't scan"? > Or "too many places where the accent wants to fall on the wrong > syllable -- this just doesn't scan"? > > David Graham wrote: >> I've never seen the experts agree on *any* specific scansion, I >> don't think. Which doesn't mean it's utterly arbitrary: if >> someone calls a 5 syllable foot an iamb they're just wrong. But >> there is so much disagreement about allowable substitutions (how >> loose is too loose); what individual ears hear as stress; matters >> of regional accents; changes of taste over time; etc., that >> scansion often *seems* purely arbitrary. Not to mention the many >> competing systems of gridding-out metrics. . . . >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On May 3, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Chris Lott wrote: >> >>> I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to >>> agreement on >>> >>> the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as >>> >>> arbitrary as it feels? >>> >>> >>> c >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/29d05ea1/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun May 3 13:55:19 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Scanned Message-ID: I was lucky enough to attend an MFA program where we were put through the prosody wringer. But I know a lot of MFA students who were not. For the complete novice, I still recommend Paul Fussell's POETIC METER AND POETIC FORM. I haven't read it in years and would probably disagree with most of what he says now, but I don't think I ever wrote a paper in grad school (except for one on Marx) without having it close by. **************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222376998x1201454298/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=M ay5309AvgfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/e6d73d84/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun May 3 14:03:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Scanned In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <49FDD2C9.2000208@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905031103s4019450dq4d69968cfc50cfb7@mail.gmail.com> Since you mention your MFA I remember I could let my scanning pass only when (definitely cunning from my side) I googled till I found the poem to be examined, scanned by an authoritative voice and I included the source. I even had a problem with syllabic poems and at that point I showed I had consulted the dictionary word by word. (!!!) On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:33 PM, David Graham wrote: > All true, but it gets complicated fast, no? For the point at which I > personally think "too many variations" is likely not the same point at which > Robert Frost does, or Alexander Pope, or Richard Wilbur. There are moments > in Frost's blank verse poems, for instance, where it seems that any line of > oh, 9 to 13 syllables with a couple iambs in it, can "count." > Plus the fact that educated ears nonetheless will frequently hear stress > differently in any given line. > > I first came to these conclusions many years ago after I made a little > post-graduate project of boning up on prosody, realizing that my MFA program > required absolutely no attention to the subject. So I read many of the > accepted major texts, and soon discovered (a) a great deal of certainty of > tone, and (b) frequent disagreement, expert to expert, on just about > EVERYTHING. > > Having said all this, I will, of course, defer to the actual experts among > us (Sam?) on most matters. But that won't alter my opinion that the degree > to which many prosodists sound sure of themselves is often in proportion to > how highly contested things are. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On May 3, 2009, at 12:22 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > Yeah, but if you start with the premise of an accentual-syllabic line, > can't you then chart the variations from that pattern? And at a certain > point (which may change from reader to reader), aren't you going to say "too > many variations -- this just doesn't scan"? Or "too many places where the > accent wants to fall on the wrong syllable -- this just doesn't scan"? > > David Graham wrote: > > I've never seen the experts agree on *any* specific scansion, I don't > think. Which doesn't mean it's utterly arbitrary: if someone calls a 5 > syllable foot an iamb they're just wrong. But there is so much > disagreement about allowable substitutions (how loose is too loose); what > individual ears hear as stress; matters of regional accents; changes of > taste over time; etc., that scansion often *seems* purely arbitrary. Not > to mention the many competing systems of gridding-out metrics. . . . > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On May 3, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > > I'm curious about this-- can our resident experts come to agreement on > > the scansion of Baer's poem? Or is the whole process really as > > arbitrary as it feels? > > > c > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/4179903f/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 3 14:04:07 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Scanned In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <49FDD2C9.2000208@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:33 AM, David Graham wrote: > I read many of the > accepted major texts, and soon discovered (a) a great deal of certainty of > tone, and (b) frequent disagreement, expert to expert, on just about > EVERYTHING. This precisely echoes my own experience. I realize it's not COMPLETELY arbitrary, but so much so that I find it interesting when someone even bothers to note that a poem like Baer's scans (or not). c From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 3 14:06:27 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Hi, Chris, > I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that scansion depends > upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's response > to/interpretation of the poet's words? It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a poem and person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather meaningless, no? > Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed > only-one-way-of-reading authority. ?Yes, of course I'm OTTing about it here, > and do welcome hearing others' views. ?It's just that so few folk recognise > scansion's role as a wonderfully useful *variously-applied* medium. I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. What difference does it make? c From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun May 3 14:24:56 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scanned Message-ID: In a message dated 5/3/2009 12:12:33 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd@ripon.edu writes: > 've never seen the experts agree on *any* specific scansion, I don't > think. Which doesn't mean it's utterly arbitrary: if someone calls a 5 > syllable foot an iamb they're just wrong. But there is so much disagreement > about allowable substitutions (how loose is too loose); what individual ears > hear as stress; matters of regional accents; changes of taste over time; > etc., that scansion often *seems* purely arbitrary. Not to mention the many > competing systems of gridding-out metrics. . . . I just refuse to get into arguments about scansion. It's a silly practice anyway, trying to give some kind of poor visual equivalent of what we should hear. Yes, I teach it to my students, but I make them listen first. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/3e07994b/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 14:30:01 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031130o6281fa2bi2c5d95c471cf0f4d@mail.gmail.com> Yes, good points well taken, Chris. All I ever hear with disagreers au moment are wild debates about The Right Scan----whilst it seems obvious [I guess only to me] that the two different scans and many others are not only 'right' but must of necessity both be right. To answer your reasonable final question about what difference it makes about whether Baer's lines 2 and 6 scan to one or maybe not, my feeling's that it's like any discussion about poetic technique: well backgrounded awareness of the technique variously used, can open folk more widely to its uses. In this particular instance, my assumptions are that 1) Poetry is music; it's aural/oral on the page as well as when spoken; 2) Different sounds will be heard by different reader/hearers; 3) Some of those different hearings may yield fruitful discussion about the inevitable emphases of different interpretations of the words', stanza's, poem's, poet's meanings; 4) Much or most of the poem will be scanned similarly by most folk, helpfully urging them to consider together the power of the poem's 'music'; and, hence 5) The poets and readers/hearers can determine their own craft and creations as well as their renewed understandings of others'. As an added bonus, I may well let you know my own JUDY OL OLO Scanning System. But you'll have to show me that you care, Chris! Do you care? Best, Judy 2009/5/3 Chris Lott > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > Hi, Chris, > > I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that scansion depends > > upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's response > > to/interpretation of the poet's words? > > It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a poem and > person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather > meaningless, no? > > > Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed > > only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm OTTing about it > here, > > and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so few folk > recognise > > scansion's role as a wonderfully useful *variously-applied* medium. > > I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe > lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. What > difference does it make? > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/df2a1c63/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 14:29:58 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't get in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? Chris Lott wrote: > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Hi, Chris, >> I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that scansion depends >> upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's response >> to/interpretation of the poet's words? >> > > It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a poem and > person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather > meaningless, no? > > >> Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed >> only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm OTTing about it here, >> and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so few folk recognise >> scansion's role as a wonderfully useful *variously-applied* medium. >> > > I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe > lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. What > difference does it make? > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From maryann at corbettdigital.net Sun May 3 15:21:05 2009 From: maryann at corbettdigital.net (maryann) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <200905031526.n43FQfa2012584@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200905031526.n43FQfa2012584@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <49FDEEA1.90705@corbettdigital.net> Speaking as one who's simply eager to find more good poetry I don't know yet, I'd like to ask Bob, or anybody else, to name some names of the poets writing better poems than Duffy.( For the record, I agree with Bob that "Prayer" uses resonant images admirably.) I'm an American and find it difficult (and lately, expensive) to purchase UK-published books), so I 'd appreciate recommendations before I plunk down cash. Maryann Bob wrote: > I'm a little unclear here, Dave. Sounds to me like Duffy is doing what > I think poets should do (at least some of the time) and I almost always > try to do--pick accessible, emotionally-resonant images and make a poem > out of them. For instance, I've more than once centered my boyhood > treehut in poems. Very standard--but it seems to me it's not the > iimages that count but how you use them. > My problem with Duffy's poem is not that it isn't a good poem, but that > I feel there are hundreds of poets around making poems as good as it, > only a few of whom are getting the publicity and money for it that she > is, and dozens making better ones, none of whom is getting any publicity > and money for it. > > --Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/0b9a8ece/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 16:01:55 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031301s789730c9gf6a7d5c1f68b3a32@mail.gmail.com> Dear Worthless Guy, Can you give me [thank you; me is Judy] details about this fascinating leading statement in Wiki re William Baer? "He also received brief fame when his obituary was prematurely published by the New York Times due to a hoax by his students. 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't > get in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. > > I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth > discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? > > > > > Chris Lott wrote: > >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince >> wrote: >> >> >>> Hi, Chris, >>> I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that scansion depends >>> upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's response >>> to/interpretation of the poet's words? >>> >>> >> >> It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a poem and >> person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather >> meaningless, no? >> >> >> >>> Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed >>> only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm OTTing about it >>> here, >>> and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so few folk >>> recognise >>> scansion's role as a wonderfully useful *variously-applied* medium. >>> >>> >> >> I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe >> lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. What >> difference does it make? >> >> c >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/52dceba5/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 3 16:24:28 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't get > in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. > > I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth > discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area of interest. More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their interpretation? Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 3 18:23:39 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <49FDEEA1.90705@corbettdigital.net> References: <200905031526.n43FQfa2012584@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <49FDEEA1.90705@corbettdigital.net> Message-ID: <49FE196B.9040905@nut-n-but.net> > Speaking as one who's simply eager to find more good poetry I don't > know yet, I'd like to ask Bob, or anybody else, to name some names of > the poets writing better poems than Duffy.( For the record, I agree > with Bob that "Prayer" uses resonant images admirably.) > > I'm an American and find it difficult (and lately, expensive) to > purchase UK-published books), so I 'd appreciate recommendations > before I plunk down cash. First off, Maryann, I have to tell you (to be very snippity) that I spoke of people /making/ better poems than Duffy--because many of the best poems today (in my opinion) are only partly written. As many at New-Poetry know, I'm a fierce advocate of visual poetry, contending that a good many of the best poems created today are by visual poets. Those among them I count an order of magnitude better than Duffy, at least, are Scott Helmes, K. S. Ernst, Carol Stetser, Guy R. Beining, John Vieira. A special case is John M. Bennett who is not only a terrific visual poet but (again, for me) a terrific solitextual (solely textual) poet, though very peculiar. Michael Basinski. Lots of others, including me. There are also some very interesting language poets, such as p. inman and Clark Coolidge, who seem to me better than Duffy. I'm not up on sound poets, but suspect there are a lot of good ones since they seem paralleling visual poets. Turning to conventional poets, I would probably rate Heaney above Duffy. Wilbur, for sure. Even Ashbury is. As well as our own Mike Snider, and some others who post to New-Poetry. I'd prefer not to name New-Poetry names (even though no one here would think a zero-sum game were under way if I did). I think any standard anthology will expose you to conventional poets you'll like as well or better than Duffy. I see lots of conventional poems I like better than those of hers I've seen but didn't like enough to remember their authors' names. Remember, I'm a partisan, so you needn't take my position too seriously. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/8a324637/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 17:32:29 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905031301s789730c9gf6a7d5c1f68b3a32@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031301s789730c9gf6a7d5c1f68b3a32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FE0D6D.2090406@opus40.org> Looks like I'm worthless again there. I don't know this story at all. But it sounds interesting. Paul Krassner of The Realist once published an obituary for Lenny Bruce when Lenny was still alive. Then a couple of years later, when Paul wrote a piece for one of the 70s rock magazines -- Cheetah, I think -- they ran a little black-edged sidebar lamenting Paul's untimely death just before the article was published. Paul was not amused. Judy Prince wrote: > Dear Worthless Guy, > > Can you give me [thank you; me is Judy] details about this fascinating > leading statement in Wiki re William Baer? > > "He also received brief fame when his obituary was prematurely > published by the New York Times > due to a hoax by his > students. > > 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > > > Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines > don't get in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some > difference if they do. > > I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth > discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? > > > > > Chris Lott wrote: > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince > > wrote: > > > Hi, Chris, > I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that > scansion depends > upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's > response > to/interpretation of the poet's words? > > > > It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a > poem and > person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather > meaningless, no? > > > > Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed > only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm > OTTing about it here, > and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so > few folk recognise > scansion's role as a wonderfully useful > *variously-applied* medium. > > > > I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe > lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. > What > difference does it make? > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 17:44:29 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> Message-ID: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: without qualm, scruple, or further delay I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY And line 6 hits me as >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the question of whole rhyme, I can scan uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the middle that take up too much room. As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those lines to make them sound better to my ear. Chris Lott wrote: > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't get >> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. >> >> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? > > Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it > is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact > that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at > least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area > of interest. > > More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and > still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in > question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could > be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless > part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their > interpretation? > > Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even > if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 17:52:42 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FE0D6D.2090406@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031301s789730c9gf6a7d5c1f68b3a32@mail.gmail.com> <49FE0D6D.2090406@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031452w6cd2f0bbvd7d5de2dab027268@mail.gmail.com> Certainly the measure of one's character is in one's response to one's published obit, nah? Hence, my curi-oh-see-tay about William Baer's possible response. Thanks, Ole Mole, we know you are not worthless, well for the most part at least, and we like you especially when you say funny things. Best, Judy who asks you to stay tuned for the next post of mine..... 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > Looks like I'm worthless again there. I don't know this story at all. But > it sounds interesting. > > Paul Krassner of The Realist once published an obituary for Lenny Bruce > when Lenny was still alive. Then a couple of years later, when Paul wrote a > piece for one of the 70s rock magazines -- Cheetah, I think -- they ran a > little black-edged sidebar lamenting Paul's untimely death just before the > article was published. Paul was not amused. > > Judy Prince wrote: > >> Dear Worthless Guy, >> >> Can you give me [thank you; me is Judy] details about this fascinating >> leading statement in Wiki re William Baer? >> >> "He also received brief fame when his obituary was prematurely published >> by the New York Times due >> to a hoax by his students. >> >> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > >> >> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >> don't get in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some >> difference if they do. >> >> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >> >> >> >> >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Judy Prince >> > > wrote: >> >> Hi, Chris, >> I keep wondering why it's such a well hidden secret that >> scansion depends >> upon the scanner for the scanner's ear and eye and brain's >> response >> to/interpretation of the poet's words? >> >> >> It's not a secret. But it means that when person A posts a >> poem and >> person B says "it doesn't scan" then person B's response is rather >> meaningless, no? >> >> >> Fiercesome battles have ensued about scansion and its supposed >> only-one-way-of-reading authority. Yes, of course I'm >> OTTing about it here, >> and do welcome hearing others' views. It's just that so >> few folk recognise >> scansion's role as a wonderfully useful >> *variously-applied* medium. >> >> >> I'm still looking for the wonderfully useful part, I guess. Maybe >> lines 2 and 6 of Baer's poems scan to one or maybe they don't. >> What >> difference does it make? >> >> c >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -- Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/db28b7c7/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 3 18:18:24 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> References: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: Do you mean Newman's "Idea of the University"? Or does the piece have an alternate title? The only thing I can find that looks close is Mill's "Inaugural Address to St. Andrews University" c On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > > How about Baldassare Castaglione, Thomas Elyot, Marsilio Ficino and the > other early European Platonists. ?The idea of idea was their bread and > tea. ?More recently I've always thought that John Stuart Mill's "Idea of > a University" is in itself as much an "Idea of the institution of ideas." From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 18:53:02 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has noted, Mole. Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to deliver an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd chosen an 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's satire with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky and bumpy. A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at something akin to it: An Applicant by Sylvia Plath First, are you our sort of a person? Do you wear A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, A brace or a hook, Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then How can we give you a thing? Stop crying. Open your hand. Empty? Empty. Here is a hand To fill it and willing To bring teacups and roll away headaches And do whatever you tell it. Will you marry it? It is guaranteed To thumb shut your eyes at the end And dissolve of sorrow. We make new stock from the salt. I notice you are stark naked. How about this suit---- Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. Will you marry it? It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof Against fire and bombs through the roof. Believe me, they'll bury you in it. Now your head, excuse me, is empty. I have the ticket for that. Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. Well, what do you think of that ? Naked as paper to start But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, In fifty, gold. A living doll, everywhere you look. It can sew, it can cook, It can talk, talk , talk. It works, there is nothing wrong with it. You have a hole, it's a poultice. You have an eye, it's an image. My boy, it's your last resort. Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. ------------------------------------ 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but > these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: > > without qualm, scruple, or further delay > > I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: > > withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY > > but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like > > withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY > > And line 6 hits me as > > >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, > > -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I > remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the > question of whole rhyme, > > I can scan > > uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. > > but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the middle > that take up too much room. > > As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had the > wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those lines > to make them sound better to my ear. > > > > > Chris Lott wrote: > >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> >>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't >>> get >>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. >>> >>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>> >> >> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >> of interest. >> >> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >> interpretation? >> >> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/adda6d0a/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun May 3 19:03:30 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." - Jim On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has > noted, Mole. > Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to deliver > an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd chosen an > 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's satire > with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky and > bumpy. > A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at something > akin to it: > > An Applicant by Sylvia Plath > > First, are you our sort of a person? > Do you wear > A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, > A brace or a hook, > Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, > > Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then > How can we give you a thing? > Stop crying. > Open your hand. > Empty? Empty. Here is a hand > > To fill it and willing > To bring teacups and roll away headaches > And do whatever you tell it. > Will you marry it? > It is guaranteed > > To thumb shut your eyes at the end > And dissolve of sorrow. > We make new stock from the salt. > I notice you are stark naked. > How about this suit---- > > Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. > Will you marry it? > It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof > Against fire and bombs through the roof. > Believe me, they'll bury you in it. > > Now your head, excuse me, is empty. > I have the ticket for that. > Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. > Well, what do you think of that ? > Naked as paper to start > > But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, > In fifty, gold. > A living doll, everywhere you look. > It can sew, it can cook, > It can talk, talk , talk. > > It works, there is nothing wrong with it. > You have a hole, it's a poultice. > You have an eye, it's an image. > My boy, it's your last resort. > Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. > > ------------------------------------ > > 2009/5/3 TheOldMole > >> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but >> these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >> >> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >> >> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >> >> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >> >> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >> >> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >> >> And line 6 hits me as >> >> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >> >> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >> question of whole rhyme, >> >> I can scan >> >> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >> >> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the middle >> that take up too much room. >> >> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had >> the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those >> lines to make them sound better to my ear. >> >> >> >> >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines don't >>>> get >>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they do. >>>> >>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>> >>> >>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >>> of interest. >>> >>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>> interpretation? >>> >>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>> >>> c >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/0ce4e583/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 3 19:18:14 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Jim, I don't get your first point re imaginative power vs scansion, and I think we'd agree to disagree about your using 'craft' to mean unsuccessful 'art'. Explain, please! Best, Judy 2009/5/3 James Cervantes > A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. > More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as > "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." > - Jim > > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has >> noted, Mole. >> Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to deliver >> an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd chosen an >> 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's satire >> with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky and >> bumpy. >> A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at something >> akin to it: >> >> An Applicant by Sylvia Plath >> >> First, are you our sort of a person? >> Do you wear >> A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, >> A brace or a hook, >> Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, >> >> Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then >> How can we give you a thing? >> Stop crying. >> Open your hand. >> Empty? Empty. Here is a hand >> >> To fill it and willing >> To bring teacups and roll away headaches >> And do whatever you tell it. >> Will you marry it? >> It is guaranteed >> >> To thumb shut your eyes at the end >> And dissolve of sorrow. >> We make new stock from the salt. >> I notice you are stark naked. >> How about this suit---- >> >> Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. >> Will you marry it? >> It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof >> Against fire and bombs through the roof. >> Believe me, they'll bury you in it. >> >> Now your head, excuse me, is empty. >> I have the ticket for that. >> Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. >> Well, what do you think of that ? >> Naked as paper to start >> >> But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, >> In fifty, gold. >> A living doll, everywhere you look. >> It can sew, it can cook, >> It can talk, talk , talk. >> >> It works, there is nothing wrong with it. >> You have a hole, it's a poultice. >> You have an eye, it's an image. >> My boy, it's your last resort. >> Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole >> >>> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but >>> these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >>> >>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >>> >>> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >>> >>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >>> >>> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >>> >>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >>> >>> And line 6 hits me as >>> >>> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >>> >>> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >>> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >>> question of whole rhyme, >>> >>> I can scan >>> >>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>> >>> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the middle >>> that take up too much room. >>> >>> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had >>> the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those >>> lines to make them sound better to my ear. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Lott wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >>>>> don't get >>>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they >>>>> do. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >>>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >>>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >>>> of interest. >>>> >>>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>>> interpretation? >>>> >>>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>>> >>>> c >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Tad Richards >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/28648c5b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun May 3 19:42:48 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> Crusoe on the Mountain Gathering Faggots He gets dead sage and stalks of weeds mostly. Oleander can kill a fire, they say. The length of valley below is green where the grapes are. The small farms of wheat tiny. And two separate cows. Then the sea. Here?s a terraced mountain abandoned to bracken and furze and not even that. If there was water once, there isn?t now. Rock and hammering sun. He tastes all of it again and again, his madeleine. He followed that clue so long it grew faint. Which must account for his happiness in this wrong terrain. ?Jack Gilbert, The Dance Most of All (Knopf, 2009) ? ? ? ? Sarah Robinson Publicist Alfred A. Knopf 1745 Broadway, 21st floor New York, NY 10019 Ph: 212-572-2018 Fax: 212-940-7307 srobinson@randomhouse.com ? Celebrate Poetry Month with a poem a day! Click here to sign up for a free daily e-mail during the month of April: http://poem-a-day.knopfdoubleday.com/ ? -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From uche at ogbuji.net Sun May 3 20:08:42 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905022344g137e6005m33b827a58fa39541@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <004229C2961E4E89848BBF13A6238585@SN037832120162> <49FCE7E6.8040708@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70905022344g137e6005m33b827a58fa39541@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FE320A.1060705@ogbuji.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Sorry to disagree with those who criticize this poem in a negative way. > I find it quite emotional, deep, and having a life of its own. English > poetry is studded by "prayers" as much as Italian "poetry" and poetry in > general and since the very beginning, see the opening salute to the > Muses. One of the fundamental prerequisites of a poet is humility. It is > right from the beginning that you can separate the good from the bad. There can be good and bad poems on prayer, just as there can be good and bad poems on pepto bismol and swine flu. As a gesture indicating my lack of malice towards poems on prayer, I offer a great poem on prayer: Hopkins' "Candle Indoors". There are many good and great poems on prayer. I chose that one precisely because it's so well known. http://plagiarist.com/poetry/6136/ -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Join me at STC09: * http://www.semantic-conference.com * http://friendfeed.com/stc09 From uche at ogbuji.net Sun May 3 20:11:10 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Oliver on the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905030308y302b612fy4e481807afbc44de@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905030308y302b612fy4e481807afbc44de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FE329E.1070900@ogbuji.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > This poem seems beautiful to me while listening to Out of the Night by > Einaudi, it might change in other circumstances. It's classic Mary Oliver, which is beautiful, subtle and rich. She's probably my favorite contemporary poet on the topic of nature. --Uche > In Blackwater Woods > > by Mary Oliver > > > Look, the trees > are turning > their own bodies > into pillars > > of light, > are giving off the rich > fragrance of cinnamon > and fulfillment, > > the long tapers > of cattails > are bursting and floating away over > the blue shoulders > > of the ponds, > and every pond, > no matter what its > name is, is > > nameless now. > Every year > everything > I have ever learned > > in my lifetime > leads back to this: the fires > and the black river of loss > whose other side > > is salvation, > whose meaning > none of us will ever know. > To live in this world > > you must be able > to do three things: > to love what is mortal; > to hold it > > against your bones knowing > your own life depends on it; > and, when the time comes to let it go, > to let it go. > > "In Blackwater Woods" by Mary Oliver, from /American Primitive/. ? Back > Bay Books, 1983. Reprinted with permission. (buy now > ) > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Join me at STC09: * http://www.semantic-conference.com * http://friendfeed.com/stc09 From jforjames at aol.com Sun May 3 20:34:26 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> The text of the file that was sent, said this: Tuesday, May 12th, 7:00pm A TRIBUTE TO JACK GILBERT? Honoring an American poet, on the occasion of the Knopf publication of his new book, The Dance Most of All. Featuring Jack Gilbert with Linda Gregg, Jim Finnegan, Mary Karr, Henry Lyman, Meghan O'Rourke, Gerald Stern, and others. Co-sponsored by the Academy of American Poets, the Creative Writing Program at New York University, Alfred A. Knopf, and Poets House.? Admission is free.? NYU Cantor Film Center 36 East 8th Street? New York, NY -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sun, 3 May 2009 7:42 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert Crusoe on the Mountain Gathering Faggots He gets dead sage and stalks of weeds mostly. Oleander can kill a fire, they say. The length of valley below is green where the grapes are. The small farms of wheat tiny. And two separate cows. Then the sea. Here?s a terraced mountain abandoned to bracken and furze and not even that. If there was water once, there isn?t now. Rock and hammering sun. He tastes all of it again and again, his madeleine. He followed that clue so long it grew faint. Which must account for his happiness in this wrong terrain. ? ?Jack Gilbert, The Dance Most of All (Knopf, 2009) ? ? ? ? Sarah Robinson Publicist Alfred A. Knopf 1745 Broadway, 21st floor New York, NY 100 19 Ph: 212-572-2018 Fax: 212-940-7307 srobinson@randomhouse.com ? Celebrate Poetry Month with a poem a day! Click here to sign up for a free daily e-mail during the month of April: http://poem-a-day.knopfdoubleday.com/ ? A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry [Image Removed] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090503/5afdcad1/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Sun May 3 20:45:41 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <49FE3AB5.1070003@ogbuji.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Do you mean Newman's "Idea of the University"? Or does the piece have > an alternate title? The only thing I can find that looks close is > Mill's "Inaugural Address to St. Andrews University" Oh deary me. Yes, that is all a mess. I do think I've managed to completely confuse a shorter work by Mill with Newman's "The Idea of a University". Yes, I know that's a doozy of a mix-up. I'm pretty sure what I have in mind is Mill, but looking around a bit just now, I can't pinpoint it. It is something I read at least twenty years ago, but I hadn't realized how badly my memory had mangled it. I plead Engineer brain. I'll keep trying to find the Mill essay I had in mind. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Join me at STC09: * http://www.semantic-conference.com * http://friendfeed.com/stc09 From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 3 20:46:27 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49FE3AE3.9050309@opus40.org> Way to go Jim! jforjames@aol.com wrote: > The text of the file that was sent, said this: > > Tuesday, May 12th, 7:00pm > A TRIBUTE TO JACK GILBERT > > Honoring an American poet, on the occasion of the Knopf publication of > his new book, /The Dance Most of All/. Featuring Jack Gilbert with > Linda Gregg, Jim Finnegan, Mary Karr, Henry Lyman, Meghan O'Rourke, > Gerald Stern, and others. > > Co-sponsored by the Academy of American Poets, the Creative Writing > Program at New York University, Alfred A. Knopf, and Poets House. > Admission is free. > NYU Cantor Film Center > 36 East 8th Street > New York, NY > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames@aol.com > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sun, 3 May 2009 7:42 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert > > Crusoe on the Mountain Ga thering Faggots > > > He gets dead sage and stalks of weeds mostly. > Oleander can kill a fire, they say. > The length of valley below is green > where the grapes are. The small farms > of wheat tiny. And two separate cows. > Then the sea. Here?s a terraced mountain > abandoned to bracken and furze and not > even that. If there was water once, > there isn?t now. Rock and hammering sun. > He tastes all of it again and again, > his madeleine. He followed that clue > so long it grew faint. Which must account > for his happiness in this wrong terrain. > > ?Jack Gilbert, /The Dance Most of All/ (Knopf, 2009) > > > > > Sarah Robinson > Publicist > Alfred A. Knopf > 1745 Broadway, 21st floor > New York, NY 10019 > Ph: 212-572-2018 > Fax: 212-940-7307 > srobinson@randomhouse.com > > Celebrate Poetry Month with a poem a day! > Click here to sign up for a free daily e-mail during the month of > April: _http://poem-a-day.knopfdoubleday.com/_ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 4 01:30:11 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Lucky bastard... wish I could be there. Gilbert is one of my favorite contemporary poets... c From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 4 01:31:00 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> Message-ID: That may have been tedious for you, but it was extremely valuable for me. Thanks! c On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 1:44 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but > these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 4 01:33:07 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F891AC.2010407@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has > noted, Mole. > Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to deliver an > um imaginative vehicle for it. ?And we guess that since he'd chosen an 'old' > 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's satire with the > 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. ?He didn't, and it's clunky and bumpy. > A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at something > akin to it: While the Plath poem is clearly superior, the Baer poem grew on me. Which was unexpected. c From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon May 4 02:39:09 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> Enjoy, and let us know how it went! Judy 2009/5/3 > The text of the file that was sent, said this: > > Tuesday, May 12th, 7:00pm > A TRIBUTE TO JACK GILBERT > Honoring an American poet, on the occasion of the Knopf publication of his > new book, *The Dance Most of All*. Featuring Jack Gilbert with Linda > Gregg, Jim Finnegan, Mary Karr, Henry Lyman, Meghan O'Rourke, Gerald Stern, > and others. > > Co-sponsored by the Academy of American Poets, the Creative Writing Program > at New York University, Alfred A. Knopf, and Poets House. > Admission is free. > NYU Cantor Film Center > 36 East 8th Street > New York, NY > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames@aol.com > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sun, 3 May 2009 7:42 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert > > Crusoe on the Mountain Ga thering Faggots > > > He gets dead sage and stalks of weeds mostly. > Oleander can kill a fire, they say. > The length of valley below is green > where the grapes are. The small farms > of wheat tiny. And two separate cows. > Then the sea. Here?s a terraced mountain > abandoned to bracken and furze and not > even that. If there was water once, > there isn?t now. Rock and hammering sun. > He tastes all of it again and again, > his madeleine. He followed that clue > so long it grew faint. Which must account > for his happiness in this wrong terrain. > > ?Jack Gilbert, *The Dance Most of All* (Knopf, 2009) > > > > > Sarah Robinson > Publicist > Alfred A. Knopf > 1745 Broadway, 21st floor > New York, NY 10019 > Ph: 212-572-2018 > Fax: 212-940-7307 > srobinson@randomhouse.com > > Celebrate Poetry Month with a poem a day! > Click here to sign up for a free daily e-mail during the month of April: * > http://poem-a-day.knopfdoubleday.com/* > > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/34b75e24/attachment.html From chan_jt at hotmail.com Mon May 4 03:20:19 2009 From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (Jill Chan) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Numinous: Spiritual Poetry, Issue 3 now online Message-ID: Numinous: Spiritual Poetry, Issue 3 now online Featuring new work by Tendai R. Mwanaka Annie Finch James Lineberger Peter Hughes Douglas Basford Peter Schwartz Ash Krafton Mary Belardi Erickson Jim Rioux http://numinousmagazine.wordpress.com Submissions open year-round Email: numinousmagazine@yahoo.com Thank you. J Chan editor _________________________________________________________________ Brrr... its getting cold out there? Find someone to light your fire this winter at Match.co.nz http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Enz%2Emsn%2Ecom%2Fchannel%2Findex%2Easpx%3Ftrackingid%3D1048628&_t=773568480&_r=nzWINDOWSliveMAILemailTAGLINES&_m=EXT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/2daaa8af/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon May 4 09:54:59 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] cultural producers invited. Message-ID: <185899.54001.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I just kicked off a Facebook group, ?Go Gay (or Not) & Make a Mess of the Mess We're In? that now has four hundred plus members, growing daily. The group began in response to Facebook's refusal to post an ad for a lesbian flick (read the history in the topics discussions). It has now morphed into a bastion of ways to open our cultural vat to evermore disarray and identity crises. Because everyone should have the right to live as 'wrongly' as they wanna (so long as they don't hurt anybody or threaten others' rights to safety, pursuit of happiness, making films, writing poetry, airbrushing photos, acting funny, etc). Please join us for discussions of exactly how we can combat injustice with mere voices - even electronic ones - and dialogue-at-odds and evens. Because if we don't talk and share freely, what would we have to say? The group is located here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=71799384711&ref=mf Thanks, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/d41958c3/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 4 10:31:41 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Lin Zhao, China Message-ID: <8CB9ADC2CCD5A5E-8EC-1536@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Lin Zhao, 36, was an imprisoned poetess who cut her flesh and wrote hundreds of pages in her own blood before being executed in 1968 for repeatedly criticizing the Communist Party. But the same passionate and charismatic Lin Zhao also was a fervent follower of Mao Zedong in the early days of the party. Sent to the countryside during the land-reform movement that resulted in the violent deaths of more than 2 million landlords and their families by 1952, Lin Zhao once placed a landlord in a vat of freezing water overnight, later telling her comrades that his screams made her feel ?cruel happiness.? A decade later, she had turned against the party. (more) http://features.csmonitor.com/books/2008/07/10/what-the-chinese-must-not-forget/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/6fa4561f/attachment.html From mykelmarsh at comcast.net Mon May 4 10:36:02 2009 From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh@comcast.net) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <49FE196B.9040905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <380548060.4361071241447762077.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Isn't the job of poet Laureate to be accessible to a nation? And being this maybe not the most cutting edge artist among her peers. Hopefully, no one is writing poetry to become poet laureate or any title. The poet laureate will never be the best poet, because there is no best poet, only the ones you like and the ones you don't, the ones that fit you or the ones that do not fit. The ones inspire, or that give you nothing. Poets are poets the audience is what will decide. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 3:23:39 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 > Speaking as one who's simply eager to find more good poetry I don't > know yet, I'd like to ask Bob, or anybody else, to name some names of > the poets writing better poems than Duffy.( For the record, I agree > with Bob that "Prayer" uses resonant images admirably.) > > I'm an American and find it difficult (and lately, expensive) to > purchase UK-published books), so I 'd appreciate recommendations > before I plunk down cash. First off, Maryann, I have to tell you (to be very snippity) that I spoke of people /making/ better poems than Duffy--because many of the best poems today (in my opinion) are only partly written. As many at New-Poetry know, I'm a fierce advocate of visual poetry, contending that a good many of the best poems created today are by visual poets. Those among them I count an order of magnitude better than Duffy, at least, are Scott Helmes, K. S. Ernst, Carol Stetser, Guy R. Beining, John Vieira. A special case is John M. Bennett who is not only a terrific visual poet but (again, for me) a terrific solitextual (solely textual) poet, though very peculiar. Michael Basinski. Lots of others, including me. There are also some very interesting language poets, such as p. inman and Clark Coolidge, who seem to me better than Duffy. I'm not up on sound poets, but suspect there are a lot of good ones since they seem paralleling visual poets. Turning to conventional poets, I would probably rate Heaney above Duffy. Wilbur, for sure. Even Ashbury is. As well as our own Mike Snider, and some others who post to New-Poetry. I'd prefer not to name New-Poetry names (even though no one here would think a zero-sum game were under way if I did). I think any standard anthology will expose you to conventional poets you'll like as well or better than Duffy. I see lots of conventional poems I like better than those of hers I've seen but didn't like enough to remember their authors' names. Remember, I'm a partisan, so you needn't take my position too seriously. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/51bd4c3d/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon May 4 12:04:29 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <49FE196B.9040905@nut-n-but.net> References: <200905031526.n43FQfa2012584@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <49FDEEA1.90705@corbettdigital.net> <49FE196B.9040905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905040904l23b38e4ag2f38b68032b1f15c@mail.gmail.com> Bob, if I wore hats I'd have to buy new ones! Thanks for that ? but I've got a lot of work to do to live up to it. On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Speaking as one who's simply eager to find more good poetry I don't know > yet, I'd like to ask Bob, or anybody else, to name some names of the poets > writing better poems than Duffy.( For the record, I agree with Bob that > "Prayer" uses resonant images admirably.) > > I'm an American and find it difficult (and lately, expensive) to purchase > UK-published books), so I 'd appreciate recommendations before I plunk down > cash. > > First off, Maryann, I have to tell you (to be very snippity) that I spoke > of people *making* better poems than Duffy--because many of the best poems > today (in my opinion) are only partly written. As many at New-Poetry know, > I'm a fierce advocate of visual poetry, contending that a good many of the > best poems created today are by visual poets. Those among them I count an > order of magnitude better than Duffy, at least, are Scott Helmes, K. S. > Ernst, Carol Stetser, Guy R. Beining, John Vieira. A special case is John > M. Bennett who is not only a terrific visual poet but (again, for me) a > terrific solitextual (solely textual) poet, though very peculiar. Michael > Basinski. Lots of others, including me. > > There are also some very interesting language poets, such as p. inman and > Clark Coolidge, who seem to me better than Duffy. I'm not up on sound > poets, but suspect there are a lot of good ones since they seem paralleling > visual poets. > > Turning to conventional poets, I would probably rate Heaney above Duffy. > Wilbur, for sure. Even Ashbury is. As well as our own Mike Snider, and > some others who post to New-Poetry. I'd prefer not to name New-Poetry > names (even though no one here would think a zero-sum game were under way if > I did). I think any standard anthology will expose you to conventional > poets you'll like as well or better than Duffy. I see lots of conventional > poems I like better than those of hers I've seen but didn't like enough to > remember their authors' names. > > Remember, I'm a partisan, so you needn't take my position too seriously. > > --Bob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/281ac1cc/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 4 12:15:02 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] 2009 Poets' Prize Message-ID: Ellen Bryant Voigt Wins 2009 Poets' Prize Ellen Bryant Voigt is the winner of the 2009 Poets' Prize of $3000. The prize is funded by and voted on by a committee of 22 American poets. Because of its complex nominating and voting procedures, the prize is awarded over a year after most other major awards are announced; this year books published in 2007 were eligible. Voigt won for Messenger: Selected Poems 1976-2006, published by W. W. Norton. In selecting Voigt's book, the prize committee considered over thirty books. The finalists were Marvin Bell for Mars Being Red (Copper Canyon), Kelly Cherry for Hazard and Prospect (LSU Press), and Mark Jarman for Epistles (Sarabande). Born in Virginia, Voigt was educated at Converse College and the University of Iowa. She has taught at M.I.T and Goddard College, and was the founder of the Warren Wilson College MFA Program for Writers, where she has taught since 1981. She served as Poet Laureate of Vermont from 1999 to 2003. She is the author of seven collections of poetry and The Flexible Lyric, a collection of critical essays. She currently resides in Cabot, Vermont. The Poets' Prize was established in 1988 by Frederick Morgan, Robert McDowell, and Louis Simpson. The first winner was Julia Randall, and the most recent was A. E. Stallings. The motto of the Poets' Prize is "We believe that there is no greater honor than to be awarded a prize by a jury of one's peers." The current chair of the Poets' Prize Committee, R. S. Gwynn, will preside at the award ceremony, which will take place at the Nicholas Roerich Museum at 319 West 107th Street in New York City at 7:00 p.m. on Thursday, May 21, 2009. The event is free and open to the public and will include readings of poems by the honoree and finalists with a reception following. Copies of Messenger will be available for purchase at the event. The link below lists all past winners: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poets'_Prize -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/7b548725/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:23:23 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Hi, Jim, I don't get your first point re imaginative power vs scansion, That was a false dichotomy, and also pointing out that neither was present in the poem in any masterful way. > and I think we'd agree to disagree about your using 'craft' to mean > unsuccessful 'art'. Explain, please! Unsuccessful art comes down to taste, I think. To some people, work by Miro is "unsuccessful art." Craft mimics art by using the same materials, though to obvious effect. All hard to define in any absolute way and I'm not going to even try. I'm certain you've been to arts & crafts fairs, where you know craft when you see it, and the same goes for art. - Jim > > 2009/5/3 James Cervantes > > A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. >> More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as >> "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." >> - Jim >> >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >>> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has >>> noted, Mole. >>> Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to deliver >>> an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd chosen an >>> 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's satire >>> with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky and >>> bumpy. >>> A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at something >>> akin to it: >>> >>> An Applicant by Sylvia Plath >>> >>> First, are you our sort of a person? >>> Do you wear >>> A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, >>> A brace or a hook, >>> Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, >>> >>> Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then >>> How can we give you a thing? >>> Stop crying. >>> Open your hand. >>> Empty? Empty. Here is a hand >>> >>> To fill it and willing >>> To bring teacups and roll away headaches >>> And do whatever you tell it. >>> Will you marry it? >>> It is guaranteed >>> >>> To thumb shut your eyes at the end >>> And dissolve of sorrow. >>> We make new stock from the salt. >>> I notice you are stark naked. >>> How about this suit---- >>> >>> Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. >>> Will you marry it? >>> It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof >>> Against fire and bombs through the roof. >>> Believe me, they'll bury you in it. >>> >>> Now your head, excuse me, is empty. >>> I have the ticket for that. >>> Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. >>> Well, what do you think of that ? >>> Naked as paper to start >>> >>> But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, >>> In fifty, gold. >>> A living doll, everywhere you look. >>> It can sew, it can cook, >>> It can talk, talk , talk. >>> >>> It works, there is nothing wrong with it. >>> You have a hole, it's a poultice. >>> You have an eye, it's an image. >>> My boy, it's your last resort. >>> Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole >>> >>>> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but >>>> these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >>>> >>>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >>>> >>>> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >>>> >>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >>>> >>>> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >>>> >>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >>>> >>>> And line 6 hits me as >>>> >>>> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >>>> >>>> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >>>> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >>>> question of whole rhyme, >>>> >>>> I can scan >>>> >>>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>>> >>>> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the >>>> middle that take up too much room. >>>> >>>> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had >>>> the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those >>>> lines to make them sound better to my ear. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris Lott wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >>>>>> don't get >>>>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they >>>>>> do. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >>>>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >>>>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>>>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >>>>> of interest. >>>>> >>>>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>>>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>>>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>>>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>>>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>>>> interpretation? >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>>>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>>>> >>>>> c >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tad Richards >>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>>> >>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/c347caa0/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:46:05 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Craft tends to be cheesier? Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:23 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Hi, Jim, I don't get your first point re imaginative power vs scansion, > > > That was a false dichotomy, and also pointing out that neither was present > in the poem in any masterful way. > > >> and I think we'd agree to disagree about your using 'craft' to mean >> unsuccessful 'art'. Explain, please! > > > Unsuccessful art comes down to taste, I think. To some people, work by > Miro is "unsuccessful art." Craft mimics art by using the same materials, > though to obvious effect. > > All hard to define in any absolute way and I'm not going to even try. I'm > certain you've been to arts & crafts fairs, where you know craft when you > see it, and the same goes for art. > > - Jim > > >> >> 2009/5/3 James Cervantes >> >> A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. >>> More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as >>> "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." >>> - Jim >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince < >>> jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has >>>> noted, Mole. >>>> Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to >>>> deliver an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd >>>> chosen an 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's >>>> satire with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky >>>> and bumpy. >>>> A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at >>>> something akin to it: >>>> >>>> An Applicant by Sylvia Plath >>>> >>>> First, are you our sort of a person? >>>> Do you wear >>>> A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, >>>> A brace or a hook, >>>> Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, >>>> >>>> Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then >>>> How can we give you a thing? >>>> Stop crying. >>>> Open your hand. >>>> Empty? Empty. Here is a hand >>>> >>>> To fill it and willing >>>> To bring teacups and roll away headaches >>>> And do whatever you tell it. >>>> Will you marry it? >>>> It is guaranteed >>>> >>>> To thumb shut your eyes at the end >>>> And dissolve of sorrow. >>>> We make new stock from the salt. >>>> I notice you are stark naked. >>>> How about this suit---- >>>> >>>> Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. >>>> Will you marry it? >>>> It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof >>>> Against fire and bombs through the roof. >>>> Believe me, they'll bury you in it. >>>> >>>> Now your head, excuse me, is empty. >>>> I have the ticket for that. >>>> Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. >>>> Well, what do you think of that ? >>>> Naked as paper to start >>>> >>>> But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, >>>> In fifty, gold. >>>> A living doll, everywhere you look. >>>> It can sew, it can cook, >>>> It can talk, talk , talk. >>>> >>>> It works, there is nothing wrong with it. >>>> You have a hole, it's a poultice. >>>> You have an eye, it's an image. >>>> My boy, it's your last resort. >>>> Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole >>>> >>>>> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but >>>>> these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >>>>> >>>>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >>>>> >>>>> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >>>>> >>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >>>>> >>>>> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >>>>> >>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >>>>> >>>>> And line 6 hits me as >>>>> >>>>> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >>>>> >>>>> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >>>>> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >>>>> question of whole rhyme, >>>>> >>>>> I can scan >>>>> >>>>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>>>> >>>>> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the >>>>> middle that take up too much room. >>>>> >>>>> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had >>>>> the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those >>>>> lines to make them sound better to my ear. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris Lott wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >>>>>>> don't get >>>>>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>>>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >>>>>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >>>>>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>>>>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >>>>>> of interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>>>>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>>>>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>>>>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>>>>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>>>>> interpretation? >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>>>>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>>>>> >>>>>> c >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tad Richards >>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>>>> >>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/33bab5ba/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon May 4 13:02:18 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> I'm pasting in the poem again so folks (including me) can see what I'm talking about Letter or Resignation Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, without qualm, scruple, or further delay, I hereby tender my formal resignation as your lover and future fianc?. The job provides too little satisfaction: too many hours of unneeded duress, a paucity of productive interaction, uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, and benefits are few and far between. This document, I'm hopeful, underscores my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right that lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of the rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." Here's how I'd scan line 2 - caps are metrical stress, not necessarily a strong speech stress. Metrical stress is always in reference only to other syllables in the foot, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the line WITH / out QUALM, | SCRUPle / or FURTH/er deLAY headless iambs are fairly common after a hypermetrical line like line 1 (used to be called a feminine ending, which I still prefer because it's linked to feminine rhyme. The same thing happens again in lines 3 and 4); 3rd foot trochaic substitutions are not unusual after a caesura; and then there's a final anapest. 3 substitutions in a single line, especially so early in a poem, before the pentameter has a chance to get going, seems a bit much to me, but Sam's right that the line wouldn't be metrically odd in Donne. In line 6, you've got to get the accent on MAny rather than TOO, which is certainly not an unusual choice, but Baer's first quatrain set up an expectation that feminine rhymes will be followed by headless iambs, so you have to untrain yourself. Once you do, though, the line is perfectly regular. too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS Remember "of" only needs to carry more weight than the second, nearly elided syllable of "hours." In this poem I think accepting the premise of a loose pentameter teaches you how to say the poem ? which is one of the values of metrical study and scansion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/b388aff9/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon May 4 13:12:02 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com> <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905041012u4c1ddaefua06bfcf8912eee01@mail.gmail.com> Indeed, yes on point one, Jim. Point two, if you'd initially meant 'craft' as technique, well that'd've been easy, but clearly you did not. I suspect, though, that a meaty debate about 'crafts' vs 'arts' wouldnae take off on NP---all of us far too jaded for it. Wish I could get some pragmatist-realist-art historian to jumpstart such a debate. Premise: Crafts are art. Problem is what happens when you switch subject w predicate noun: *Art is craft*. Artistotle wouldn't have be pleased by this lovely switch, and we'd call it a red herring, anyway. So let me begin again: Is any craft art? Is architecture art? Are sculptors artists? Was Alexander Calder [the third] an artist when he designed mobiles and stabiles but a craftsperson when he designed jewelry, toys, and lamps? Is this fundamentally a money and size debate, not a debate about the primary qualities of 'art' and 'crafts'? Is it a sexistly-loaded divide? Are handmade [often called oriental] rugs works of art, or are they crafted? Are their pattern-designers [in some instances separate from] artists, and their weavers craftspersons? Best, Judy who paints, illustrates, makes jewelry, and loves to debate 2009/5/4 James Cervantes > > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Hi, Jim, I don't get your first point re imaginative power vs scansion, > > > That was a false dichotomy, and also pointing out that neither was present > in the poem in any masterful way. > > >> and I think we'd agree to disagree about your using 'craft' to mean >> unsuccessful 'art'. Explain, please! > > > Unsuccessful art comes down to taste, I think. To some people, work by > Miro is "unsuccessful art." Craft mimics art by using the same materials, > though to obvious effect. > > All hard to define in any absolute way and I'm not going to even try. I'm > certain you've been to arts & crafts fairs, where you know craft when you > see it, and the same goes for art. > > - Jim > > >> >> 2009/5/3 James Cervantes >> >> A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. >>> More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as >>> "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." >>> - Jim >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince < >>> jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has >>>> noted, Mole. >>>> Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to >>>> deliver an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd >>>> chosen an 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's >>>> satire with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky >>>> and bumpy. >>>> A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at >>>> something akin to it: >>>> >>>> An Applicant by Sylvia Plath >>>> >>>> First, are you our sort of a person? >>>> Do you wear >>>> A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, >>>> A brace or a hook, >>>> Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, >>>> >>>> Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then >>>> How can we give you a thing? >>>> Stop crying. >>>> Open your hand. >>>> Empty? Empty. Here is a hand >>>> >>>> To fill it and willing >>>> To bring teacups and roll away headaches >>>> And do whatever you tell it. >>>> Will you marry it? >>>> It is guaranteed >>>> >>>> To thumb shut your eyes at the end >>>> And dissolve of sorrow. >>>> We make new stock from the salt. >>>> I notice you are stark naked. >>>> How about this suit---- >>>> >>>> Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. >>>> Will you marry it? >>>> It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof >>>> Against fire and bombs through the roof. >>>> Believe me, they'll bury you in it. >>>> >>>> Now your head, excuse me, is empty. >>>> I have the ticket for that. >>>> Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. >>>> Well, what do you think of that ? >>>> Naked as paper to start >>>> >>>> But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, >>>> In fifty, gold. >>>> A living doll, everywhere you look. >>>> It can sew, it can cook, >>>> It can talk, talk , talk. >>>> >>>> It works, there is nothing wrong with it. >>>> You have a hole, it's a poultice. >>>> You have an eye, it's an image. >>>> My boy, it's your last resort. >>>> Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole >>>> >>>>> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, but >>>>> these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >>>>> >>>>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >>>>> >>>>> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >>>>> >>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >>>>> >>>>> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >>>>> >>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >>>>> >>>>> And line 6 hits me as >>>>> >>>>> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >>>>> >>>>> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >>>>> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >>>>> question of whole rhyme, >>>>> >>>>> I can scan >>>>> >>>>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>>>> >>>>> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the >>>>> middle that take up too much room. >>>>> >>>>> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I had >>>>> the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework those >>>>> lines to make them sound better to my ear. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris Lott wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >>>>>>> don't get >>>>>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>>>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, it >>>>>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the fact >>>>>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>>>>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- area >>>>>> of interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>>>>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>>>>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>>>>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>>>>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>>>>> interpretation? >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>>>>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>>>>> >>>>>> c >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tad Richards >>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>>>> >>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/f9dbe228/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon May 4 13:16:06 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905041016r5bb7aca5k9f7560bd542cd691@mail.gmail.com> Cheese-spray definitely art, though. JP 2009/5/4 Halvard Johnson > Craft tends to be cheesier? > > Hal > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:23 PM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >>> Hi, Jim, I don't get your first point re imaginative power vs scansion, >> >> >> That was a false dichotomy, and also pointing out that neither was present >> in the poem in any masterful way. >> >> >>> and I think we'd agree to disagree about your using 'craft' to mean >>> unsuccessful 'art'. Explain, please! >> >> >> Unsuccessful art comes down to taste, I think. To some people, work by >> Miro is "unsuccessful art." Craft mimics art by using the same materials, >> though to obvious effect. >> >> All hard to define in any absolute way and I'm not going to even try. I'm >> certain you've been to arts & crafts fairs, where you know craft when you >> see it, and the same goes for art. >> >> - Jim >> >> >>> >>> 2009/5/3 James Cervantes >>> >>> A world of difference, no? There's no "imaginative power" vs. scansion. >>>> More like art vs. craft, I'd say. "Art" uses the same devices/elements as >>>> "craft," though "craft" doesn't make the leap into "art." >>>> - Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Judy Prince < >>>> jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, you've noted what at least one of our resident metrics experts has >>>>> noted, Mole. >>>>> Baer's poem's initially cute, but hasn't the imaginative power to >>>>> deliver an um imaginative vehicle for it. And we guess that since he'd >>>>> chosen an 'old' 'strict' form [sonnet], he might've strengthened his poem's >>>>> satire with the 'old' iambic pentameter scheme. He didn't, and it's clunky >>>>> and bumpy. >>>>> A friend notes that Sylvia Plath, tho, succeeded rather well at >>>>> something akin to it: >>>>> >>>>> An Applicant by Sylvia Plath >>>>> >>>>> First, are you our sort of a person? >>>>> Do you wear >>>>> A glass eye, false teeth or a crutch, >>>>> A brace or a hook, >>>>> Rubber breasts or a rubber crotch, >>>>> >>>>> Stitches to show something's missing? No, no? Then >>>>> How can we give you a thing? >>>>> Stop crying. >>>>> Open your hand. >>>>> Empty? Empty. Here is a hand >>>>> >>>>> To fill it and willing >>>>> To bring teacups and roll away headaches >>>>> And do whatever you tell it. >>>>> Will you marry it? >>>>> It is guaranteed >>>>> >>>>> To thumb shut your eyes at the end >>>>> And dissolve of sorrow. >>>>> We make new stock from the salt. >>>>> I notice you are stark naked. >>>>> How about this suit---- >>>>> >>>>> Black and stiff, but not a bad fit. >>>>> Will you marry it? >>>>> It is waterproof, shatterproof, proof >>>>> Against fire and bombs through the roof. >>>>> Believe me, they'll bury you in it. >>>>> >>>>> Now your head, excuse me, is empty. >>>>> I have the ticket for that. >>>>> Come here, sweetie, out of the closet. >>>>> Well, what do you think of that ? >>>>> Naked as paper to start >>>>> >>>>> But in twenty-five years she'll be silver, >>>>> In fifty, gold. >>>>> A living doll, everywhere you look. >>>>> It can sew, it can cook, >>>>> It can talk, talk , talk. >>>>> >>>>> It works, there is nothing wrong with it. >>>>> You have a hole, it's a poultice. >>>>> You have an eye, it's an image. >>>>> My boy, it's your last resort. >>>>> Will you marry it, marry it, marry it. >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> 2009/5/3 TheOldMole >>>>> >>>>>> Well, I claim a back seat to no one when it comes to worthlessness, >>>>>> but these are the lines that clunk on my ear a bit: >>>>>> >>>>>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay >>>>>> >>>>>> I can scan it as a 4-stress line easily enough: >>>>>> >>>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, or FUR//ther deLAY >>>>>> >>>>>> but when I try to get 5 stresses out of it, it comes out more like >>>>>> >>>>>> withOUT// qualm, SCRU//ple, OR//furTHER// deLAY >>>>>> >>>>>> And line 6 hits me as >>>>>> >>>>>> >too MA//ny HOURS //of UN//needED //durESS, >>>>>> >>>>>> -- I don't have any problem making "hours" a one-syllable word -- I >>>>>> remember we recently talked about an issue like this in regard to the >>>>>> question of whole rhyme, >>>>>> >>>>>> I can scan >>>>>> >>>>>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>>>>> >>>>>> but it feels clunky two me, with extra unstressed syllables in the >>>>>> middle that take up too much room. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I said, I'm no authority here. But if I'd written the poem (if I >>>>>> had the wit -- I do like most of the poem), I would have tried to rework >>>>>> those lines to make them sound better to my ear. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Lott wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, TheOldMole >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Speaking as the worthless guy, it makes no difference if the lines >>>>>>>> don't get >>>>>>>> in the way of your appreciation of the poem, some difference if they >>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder, though -- are there any elements of craft that are worth >>>>>>>> discussing, or is scansion the only worthless one? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Worthless might be putting it too harshly (about elements of craft, >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is CERTAINLY not applicable to you)... but in practical terms the >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> that scansion is so personalized makes it rather less valuable, or at >>>>>>> least moves it into a different-- and honestly more interesting-- >>>>>>> area >>>>>>> of interest. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More importantly, I wasn't as interested in an argument as I was (and >>>>>>> still am) in simply seeing how different people scan the lines in >>>>>>> question. I mean, since it was explicitly brought up... If that could >>>>>>> be done without arguing about right and wrong (that's the worthless >>>>>>> part), it would be very interesting. Anyone care to share their >>>>>>> interpretation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally, I think all elements of craft are worth discussing, even >>>>>>> if sometimes particular claims might be of dubious value. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> c >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tad Richards >>>>>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>>>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/64796bcf/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:41:03 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, gave me an idea for a screenplay: The Silence of the Headless Iambs. "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > I'm pasting in the poem again so folks (including me) can see what I'm > talking about > > > Letter or Resignation > > > > Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, > > without qualm, scruple, or further delay, > > I hereby tender my formal resignation > > as your lover and future fianc?. > > The job provides too little satisfaction: > > too many hours of unneeded duress, > > a paucity of productive interaction, > > uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. > > Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: > > advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, > > my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, > > and benefits are few and far between. > > This document, I'm hopeful, underscores > > my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... > > > > Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right that > lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of the > rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very > fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." > > > Here's how I'd scan line 2 - caps are metrical stress, not necessarily a > strong speech stress. Metrical stress is always in reference only to other > syllables in the foot, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the line > > > WITH / out QUALM, | SCRUPle / or FURTH/er deLAY > > > headless iambs are fairly common after a hypermetrical line like line 1 > (used to be called a feminine ending, which I still prefer because it's > linked to feminine rhyme. The same thing happens again in lines 3 and 4); > 3rd foot trochaic substitutions are not unusual after a caesura; and then > there's a final anapest. 3 substitutions in a single line, especially so > early in a poem, before the pentameter has a chance to get going, seems a > bit much to me, but Sam's right that the line wouldn't be metrically odd in > Donne. > > > > In line 6, you've got to get the accent on MAny rather than TOO, which is > certainly not an unusual choice, but Baer's first quatrain set up an > expectation that feminine rhymes will be followed by headless iambs, so you > have to untrain yourself. Once you do, though, the line is perfectly > regular. > > > too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS > > > Remember "of" only needs to carry more weight than the second, nearly > elided syllable of "hours." > > > In this poem I think accepting the premise of a loose pentameter teaches > you how to say the poem ? which is one of the values of metrical study and > scansion. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/78453682/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon May 4 14:02:08 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905041102i1fe183e2ka3d719a5916b7da7@mail.gmail.com> A Hal sonnet coming on........ 2009/5/4 Halvard Johnson > Ah, gave me an idea for a screenplay: The Silence of the Headless Iambs. > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> I'm pasting in the poem again so folks (including me) can see what I'm >> talking about >> >> >> Letter or Resignation >> >> >> >> Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, >> >> without qualm, scruple, or further delay, >> >> I hereby tender my formal resignation >> >> as your lover and future fianc?. >> >> The job provides too little satisfaction: >> >> too many hours of unneeded duress, >> >> a paucity of productive interaction, >> >> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >> >> Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: >> >> advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, >> >> my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, >> >> and benefits are few and far between. >> >> This document, I'm hopeful, underscores >> >> my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... >> >> >> >> Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right >> that lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of >> the rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very >> fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." >> >> >> Here's how I'd scan line 2 - caps are metrical stress, not necessarily a >> strong speech stress. Metrical stress is always in reference only to other >> syllables in the foot, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the line >> >> >> WITH / out QUALM, | SCRUPle / or FURTH/er deLAY >> >> >> headless iambs are fairly common after a hypermetrical line like line 1 >> (used to be called a feminine ending, which I still prefer because it's >> linked to feminine rhyme. The same thing happens again in lines 3 and 4); >> 3rd foot trochaic substitutions are not unusual after a caesura; and then >> there's a final anapest. 3 substitutions in a single line, especially so >> early in a poem, before the pentameter has a chance to get going, seems a >> bit much to me, but Sam's right that the line wouldn't be metrically odd in >> Donne. >> >> >> >> In line 6, you've got to get the accent on MAny rather than TOO, which is >> certainly not an unusual choice, but Baer's first quatrain set up an >> expectation that feminine rhymes will be followed by headless iambs, so you >> have to untrain yourself. Once you do, though, the line is perfectly >> regular. >> >> >> too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS >> >> >> Remember "of" only needs to carry more weight than the second, nearly >> elided syllable of "hours." >> >> >> In this poem I think accepting the premise of a loose pentameter teaches >> you how to say the poem ? which is one of the values of metrical study and >> scansion. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/5156a3aa/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon May 4 14:02:08 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905041102i1fe183e2ka3d719a5916b7da7@mail.gmail.com> A Hal sonnet coming on........ 2009/5/4 Halvard Johnson > Ah, gave me an idea for a screenplay: The Silence of the Headless Iambs. > > "Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> I'm pasting in the poem again so folks (including me) can see what I'm >> talking about >> >> >> Letter or Resignation >> >> >> >> Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, >> >> without qualm, scruple, or further delay, >> >> I hereby tender my formal resignation >> >> as your lover and future fianc?. >> >> The job provides too little satisfaction: >> >> too many hours of unneeded duress, >> >> a paucity of productive interaction, >> >> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >> >> Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: >> >> advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, >> >> my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, >> >> and benefits are few and far between. >> >> This document, I'm hopeful, underscores >> >> my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... >> >> >> >> Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right >> that lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of >> the rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very >> fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." >> >> >> Here's how I'd scan line 2 - caps are metrical stress, not necessarily a >> strong speech stress. Metrical stress is always in reference only to other >> syllables in the foot, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the line >> >> >> WITH / out QUALM, | SCRUPle / or FURTH/er deLAY >> >> >> headless iambs are fairly common after a hypermetrical line like line 1 >> (used to be called a feminine ending, which I still prefer because it's >> linked to feminine rhyme. The same thing happens again in lines 3 and 4); >> 3rd foot trochaic substitutions are not unusual after a caesura; and then >> there's a final anapest. 3 substitutions in a single line, especially so >> early in a poem, before the pentameter has a chance to get going, seems a >> bit much to me, but Sam's right that the line wouldn't be metrically odd in >> Donne. >> >> >> >> In line 6, you've got to get the accent on MAny rather than TOO, which is >> certainly not an unusual choice, but Baer's first quatrain set up an >> expectation that feminine rhymes will be followed by headless iambs, so you >> have to untrain yourself. Once you do, though, the line is perfectly >> regular. >> >> >> too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS >> >> >> Remember "of" only needs to carry more weight than the second, nearly >> elided syllable of "hours." >> >> >> In this poem I think accepting the premise of a loose pentameter teaches >> you how to say the poem ? which is one of the values of metrical study and >> scansion. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/5156a3aa/attachment-0001.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon May 4 14:10:00 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905041102i1fe183e2ka3d719a5916b7da7@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905041102i1fe183e2ka3d719a5916b7da7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905041110k53b1d2f9of4d976d66ac69e52@mail.gmail.com> I think it should be a musical, Hal, complete with a chorus line in black, eyeless masks. On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > A Hal sonnet coming on........ > > 2009/5/4 Halvard Johnson > > Ah, gave me an idea for a screenplay: The Silence of the Headless Iambs. >> >> "Anything is art if an artist says it is." >> --Marcel Duchamp >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Michael Snider wrote: >> >>> I'm pasting in the poem again so folks (including me) can see what I'm >>> talking about >>> >>> >>> Letter or Resignation >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, >>> >>> without qualm, scruple, or further delay, >>> >>> I hereby tender my formal resignation >>> >>> as your lover and future fianc?. >>> >>> The job provides too little satisfaction: >>> >>> too many hours of unneeded duress, >>> >>> a paucity of productive interaction, >>> >>> uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. >>> >>> Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: >>> >>> advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, >>> >>> my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, >>> >>> and benefits are few and far between. >>> >>> This document, I'm hopeful, underscores >>> >>> my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... >>> >>> >>> >>> Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right >>> that lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of >>> the rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very >>> fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." >>> >>> >>> Here's how I'd scan line 2 - caps are metrical stress, not necessarily a >>> strong speech stress. Metrical stress is always in reference only to other >>> syllables in the foot, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the line >>> >>> >>> WITH / out QUALM, | SCRUPle / or FURTH/er deLAY >>> >>> >>> headless iambs are fairly common after a hypermetrical line like line 1 >>> (used to be called a feminine ending, which I still prefer because it's >>> linked to feminine rhyme. The same thing happens again in lines 3 and 4); >>> 3rd foot trochaic substitutions are not unusual after a caesura; and then >>> there's a final anapest. 3 substitutions in a single line, especially so >>> early in a poem, before the pentameter has a chance to get going, seems a >>> bit much to me, but Sam's right that the line wouldn't be metrically odd in >>> Donne. >>> >>> >>> >>> In line 6, you've got to get the accent on MAny rather than TOO, which is >>> certainly not an unusual choice, but Baer's first quatrain set up an >>> expectation that feminine rhymes will be followed by headless iambs, so you >>> have to untrain yourself. Once you do, though, the line is perfectly >>> regular. >>> >>> >>> too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS >>> >>> >>> Remember "of" only needs to carry more weight than the second, nearly >>> elided syllable of "hours." >>> >>> >>> In this poem I think accepting the premise of a loose pentameter teaches >>> you how to say the poem ? which is one of the values of metrical study and >>> scansion. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/1166cbb7/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon May 4 14:32:19 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031016r80300a2i82e364ffe637751b@mail.gmail.com><49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org><49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org><7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> << From: Michael Snider ... Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right that lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of the rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." >> Following up Mike?s post ? I had (and have) several problems with this poem. My first reaction was, after reading the first four lines, it was pretty obvious what the rest of the poem would be in terms of stylistic register, and I ended up not being surprised. But that wasn't a metrical judgment ... Metrically, putting a five syllable word ? ?deliberation? ? in the first line, before the rhythm is established, is a risk (and I think fails) as the more syllables in a word, the wider *possible variety of stress. Once the rhythm is established, this can control how the word is pronounced. But at the beginning, but with no guidance? (And I don?t find it any easier to resolve after more than several rereadings.) I obviously have more difficulty than Sam and Mike in dealing with this poem, stemming from my inability to work out how to read it. (If you don?t know or can?t make sense of how a poem is meant to sound, it?s difficult to scan it. This may be my Scottish rather than American ear, as has been suggested backchannel.) I find it impossible to resolve lines 1, 3, 5 and 7 ? I simply can?t work out what the rhythm is supposed to be, and out-of-context, the lines would strike me as prose. Mike pointed to the number of anapests in the poem, and the final line of the octave does (for me) stray into the bounds of iambic territory, if you allow a line which has two anapestic substitutions out of five syllables: un CER | tain WORK | ing con DIT | ions, and END | less STRESS. This would in my book just work in the context of an overall iambic pattern. Line 6, however, which Mike reads: too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS I?d see, in contrast, as a headless iamb followed by three anapests, which in my book doth an anapestic line make: TOO | man y HOURS | of un NEED | ed du RESS We?re in Th?Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold territory here ? Then there?s the sestet, which charges off in a totally different metrical direction. I can?t resolve lines 9 and 11, but to my ear, the other four lines are (all too) regularly iambic. So having begun in metrical chaos, the poem resolves itself by settling into a solid iambic pattern, concluding with three unequivocal iambic lines, for the first time in the poem. Maybe this is what Baer is setting out to do? If so, it doesn?t work for me. Robin From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon May 4 14:50:46 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> References: <49FDE2A6.9030009@opus40.org> <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> Robin, I actually agree with much of what you say about the poem. I gave a scansion which depends on generously trusting Baer's IP intentions, and while I believe that for those lines it's a plausible scansion, I think you're correct that he never establishes a metrical norm which would support the number and kinds of variations he uses. There are too many substitutions, they come too soon, and the iambic norm apears too late. On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: > << > From: Michael Snider > ... > Line 1 has a headless iamb after a very early caesura, but Tad's right that > lines 2 and 6 are the difficult ones to speak as pentameter. Most of the > rest are pretty normal, especially for writers after Frost, who was very > fond of anapestic substitutions - though he just called it "loose iambics." > >> >>> > Following up Mike?s post ? > > I had (and have) several problems with this poem. > > My first reaction was, after reading the first four lines, it was pretty > obvious what the rest of the poem would be in terms of stylistic register, > and I ended up not being surprised. But that wasn't a metrical judgment > ... > > Metrically, putting a five syllable word ? ?deliberation? ? in the first > line, before the rhythm is established, is a risk (and I think fails) as > the > more syllables in a word, the wider *possible variety of stress. Once the > rhythm is established, this can control how the word is pronounced. But at > the beginning, but with no guidance? (And I don?t find it any easier to > resolve after more than several rereadings.) > > I obviously have more difficulty than Sam and Mike in dealing with this > poem, stemming from my inability to work out how to read it. (If you don?t > know or can?t make sense of how a poem is meant to sound, it?s difficult to > scan it. This may be my Scottish rather than American ear, as has been > suggested backchannel.) > > I find it impossible to resolve lines 1, 3, 5 and 7 ? I simply can?t work > out what the rhythm is supposed to be, and out-of-context, the lines would > strike me as prose. > > Mike pointed to the number of anapests in the poem, and the final line of > the octave does (for me) stray into the bounds of iambic territory, if you > allow a line which has two anapestic substitutions out of five syllables: > > un CER | tain WORK | ing con DIT | ions, and END | less STRESS. > > This would in my book just work in the context of an overall iambic > pattern. > Line 6, however, which Mike reads: > > too MA/ny HO/urs OF /unNEED/ed STRESS > > I?d see, in contrast, as a headless iamb followed by three anapests, which > in my book doth an anapestic line make: > > TOO | man y HOURS | of un NEED | ed du RESS > > We?re in Th?Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold territory here ? > > Then there?s the sestet, which charges off in a totally different metrical > direction. > > I can?t resolve lines 9 and 11, but to my ear, the other four lines are > (all > too) regularly iambic. > > So having begun in metrical chaos, the poem resolves itself by settling > into > a solid iambic pattern, concluding with three unequivocal iambic lines, for > the first time in the poem. > > Maybe this is what Baer is setting out to do? > > If so, it doesn?t work for me. > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/b3d561b1/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 4 16:05:35 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net><8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com><8CB9A6736B18EF4-C8-C 52@webmail-de20.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Enjoy, and let us know how it went! > > Judy And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 4 15:05:52 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmm... this is interesting stuff. And scansion is good for something new-- making me like a poem a lot less! It reminds me of the way one's ear becomes trained to understand audio production or a particular instrument and suddenly a whole lot of previously enjoyable music becomes less so-- or even unlistenable. I'm not sure one is the better for it (because I'm unconvinced that those refined pleasures are any *more* enjoyable-- in intensity or quality-- than the old ones), but that's something else again. I know it works in the opposite way, allowing one to get even more from a work than before. But more often it feels the opposite. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 4 16:34:46 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905040904l23b38e4ag2f38b68032b1f15c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200905031526.n43FQfa2012584@wiz.cath.vt.edu><49FDEEA1.90705@corbettdigital.net> <49FE196B.9040905@nut-n-but.net> <6768ac830905040904l23b38e4ag2f38b68032b1f15c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FF5166.9020608@nut-n-but.net> Michael Snider wrote: > Bob, if I wore hats I'd have to buy new ones! Thanks for that ? but > I've got a lot of work to do to live up to it. I just hope you won't have to live down to it, Mike (in view of some of the poets you're on my list with). all best, Bob From mandolin at mikesnider.org Mon May 4 15:44:38 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> Chris, I think more skillful handling of the meter would have made this a better poem (though never one for the ages). I'm not really a fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems to advocate in the lines "?The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. /?Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, /?And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows; ..."?- but here what ought to sound clever just sounds labored, and partly because the metrical irregularities of the work mke it hard just to say the thing intelligibly. Outside of a classroom, I don't think difficult scansion would make anyone like a fine poem less, but it can help to identify one possible source of unease with mediocre metrical poetry. Baer's written a lot better than this. On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > > Hmmm... this is interesting stuff. > > And scansion is good for something new-- making me like a poem a lot > less! It reminds me of the way one's ear becomes trained to understand > audio production or a particular instrument and suddenly a whole lot > of previously enjoyable music becomes less so-- or even unlistenable. > I'm not sure one is the better for it (because I'm unconvinced that > those refined pleasures are any *more* enjoyable-- in intensity or > quality-- than the old ones), but that's something else again. > > I know it works in the opposite way, allowing one to get even more > from a work than before. But more often it feels the opposite. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 4 16:16:33 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > > Outside of a classroom, I don't think difficult scansion would make > anyone like a fine poem less, but it can help to identify one possible > source of unease with mediocre metrical poetry. Baer's written a lot > better than this. The "fine poem" reasoning is bit circular if you include in that definition that the meter is well-wrought! I was thinking more of the potential "negatives" of having one's ear being more finely tuned... which clearly happens outside the classroom (as in this very discussion). Baer may have written better-- I know nothing of him-- but I'd grown to like this poem until the metrical problems were pointed out to me... c From halvard at gmail.com Mon May 4 16:36:34 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: When the meter's off, drivers can charge what they like. Hal "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Michael Snider > wrote: > > > > Outside of a classroom, I don't think difficult scansion would make > > anyone like a fine poem less, but it can help to identify one possible > > source of unease with mediocre metrical poetry. Baer's written a lot > > better than this. > > The "fine poem" reasoning is bit circular if you include in that > definition that the meter is well-wrought! I was thinking more of the > potential "negatives" of having one's ear being more finely tuned... > which clearly happens outside the classroom (as in this very > discussion). Baer may have written better-- I know nothing of him-- > but I'd grown to like this poem until the metrical problems were > pointed out to me... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/4aea431c/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon May 4 19:42:57 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FF7D81.3090409@opus40.org> It's always better to know more. I mean, unless it's about your significant other's extramural sex habits. Chris Lott wrote: > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> Outside of a classroom, I don't think difficult scansion would make >> anyone like a fine poem less, but it can help to identify one possible >> source of unease with mediocre metrical poetry. Baer's written a lot >> better than this. >> > > The "fine poem" reasoning is bit circular if you include in that > definition that the meter is well-wrought! I was thinking more of the > potential "negatives" of having one's ear being more finely tuned... > which clearly happens outside the classroom (as in this very > discussion). Baer may have written better-- I know nothing of him-- > but I'd grown to like this poem until the metrical problems were > pointed out to me... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 4 20:07:41 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of the Giants of poetry Message-ID: <8CB9B2CA4714B46-BB0-22DC@webmail-mh34.sysops.aol.com> http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/blog/2009/05/the_giants_have_a_poet_and_you.html Yes, one of the new Giants is a poet. ?It?s weird,? this yet-unnamed player said of his hobby. ?When I get bored I think about things, I think about life, and I write it down. I love rhyming.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/ef6819b4/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 4 20:30:17 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: References: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <8CB9B2FCC581BCD-BB0-23D1@webmail-mh34.sysops.aol.com> Not a poem but Charles Peirce's famous essay... http://www.peirce.org/writings/p119.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/1b26f371/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 4 20:45:27 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rich essays Message-ID: <8CB9B31EB4B6F74-BB0-247A@webmail-mh34.sysops.aol.com> http://www.bookslut.com/nonfiction/2009_05_014422.php Throughout her career as a poet, essayist, and activist, Adrienne Rich has been known for her progressive politics and sharp social critiques. In this new collection, A Human Eye: Essays on Art and Society, 1996 ? 2008, she turns her eye towards an examination of poetry and explores the purposes of art in times of extremity, noting art's ability ?to revive [the] human spirit, stimulate consciousness, [and] restore a brutalized humanity.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090504/b40a104e/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon May 4 21:22:37 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98D9DD629BC6-1344-1950@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <458E787A7CC9429F9F78C4AD9A33189B@RobinLaptopPC> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FF94DD.4040703@ogbuji.net> Judy Prince wrote: > oh dear, and welcome back, Uche. I'm a relative newcomer to NP, but > recall Robin having talked so well of you, of your being on NP some time > ago. I'd meant to respond to this bit of kindness. Thanks. I'm really happy to be back, and I hope I can hold off the hydra of a day job for a little while every day so I can stick around. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Join me at STC09: * http://www.semantic-conference.com * http://friendfeed.com/stc09 From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 5 01:15:01 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org><7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com><74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC><6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] From: "Michael Snider" > I'm not really a > fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems > to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. > / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream > in smoother Numbers flows; ..." Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: X / X / X / X / X /. But: Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / While: And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two iambs -- X X / / X / X / X /. Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. Just a thot ... Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 5 01:21:48 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for poems (and other writing) on "the idea" In-Reply-To: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> References: <49FCA3AC.9060300@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <49B67FD5D9844326997A6A9CEE575C66@RobinLaptopPC> From: "Uche Ogbuji" > Chris Lott wrote: >> I'm in search of poems (and other writing) that has as its topic-- or >> as a significant theme-- the "idea" -- not so much ideas in general, >> but "the idea of the idea" ... ... > How about Baldassare Castaglione, Thomas Elyot, Marsilio Ficino and the > other early European Platonists. The idea of idea was their bread and > tea. More recently I've always thought that John Stuart Mill's "Idea of > a University" is in itself as much an "Idea of the institution of ideas." I'd meant to pick up on this earlier, but the complex of writers Uche points to here [to whom I'd add Pico della Mirandola, naturally ] get versified by Edmund Spenser in the _Four Hymns_ (to Earthly and Heavenly Love and Beauty). Spenser's is trite stuff, and John Donne does it better -- Ben Jonson alleged that Donne said he wrote _The Anniversaries_ "about the Idea of a woman, and not as she was." Even in the Renaissance, the sense of "idea" (Christianised as the Thoughts of God) is slippery, mostly but not always corresponding to the Platonic Form. Later (with Locke? Uche?) the predominant modern sense of "concept" takes over. I'm better on the Renaissance period than I am on later material. But even there, it's been some considerable time since I've been involved with this. Robin From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 06:22:02 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy gets the laurels In-Reply-To: <49FF94DD.4040703@ogbuji.net> References: <8CB988D5F867534-158-1BE@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CB98DEABEB6588-1344-1A21@WEBMAIL-DY13.sysops.aol.com> <92F16E7E9E8D47C4B63000A11DFAF505@RobinLaptopPC> <4B56570FDBE84F4082BE9ED9C3296514@SN037832120162> <6768ac830905021337pe4abf9aga8a57149dbb24a6b@mail.gmail.com> <49FCB203.1060605@corbettdigital.net> <49FCBC38.1020600@ogbuji.net> <7db1d01b0905021650p3d58c05bga358552e4dfb0bef@mail.gmail.com> <49FF94DD.4040703@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050322i441eef5s5cc65bdcf6a99d12@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Uche. Oh well, if all you need is to dodge Hydra heads, easy enuff. Work, you see, is simply God's [substitute any word you like for God] excuse for glorifying our talents [of course that means showing/helping others to glorify their talents]. Yes, ALL of our talents.....and in the same job as you now labour so reluctantly and desperately [finances, you know, seem so um REAL, when we know of course that they're no more real than the reality-logic of the "animal spirits" (ie, animus) that drives investor folk to bleebup and blastdown the Dow et al every work day]. I'm not talking a shy, embarrassed, sneaking poetry-gorging moment or two at the screen. No, indeed! I'm talking about your risking all by Being Poetic Always at your workplace. Use it or lose it, Uche! Only you can do an UCHE POET thang all the time. Only you can do an UCHE POET thang therefore at work, in your UCHE POET style. Inimitably UCHE, you see. ENJOY! Judy 2009/5/4 Uche Ogbuji > Judy Prince wrote: > > oh dear, and welcome back, Uche. I'm a relative newcomer to NP, but > > recall Robin having talked so well of you, of your being on NP some time > > ago. > > I'd meant to respond to this bit of kindness. Thanks. I'm really happy > to be back, and I hope I can hold off the hydra of a day job for a > little while every day so I can stick around. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Join me at STC09: > * http://www.semantic-conference.com > * http://friendfeed.com/stc09 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/5842146f/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 5 08:38:25 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Oliver on the Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <49FE329E.1070900@ogbuji.net> References: <4b65c2d70905030308y302b612fy4e481807afbc44de@mail.gmail.com> <49FE329E.1070900@ogbuji.net> Message-ID: <4A003341.3050900@nut-n-but.net> Uche Ogbuji wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> This poem seems beautiful to me while listening to Out of the Night by >> Einaudi, it might change in other circumstances. >> > > It's classic Mary Oliver, which is beautiful, subtle and rich. She's > probably my favorite contemporary poet on the topic of nature. > > --Uche Strange the ways of taste. When I read that Duffy have become England's Poet Laureate, the first poet that jumped to my mind as her American equivalent was Mary Oliver. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/bb5f0201/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue May 5 08:31:48 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org><7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com><74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC><6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in public. Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is a cadence rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee in the previous line) David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... > [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] > > From: "Michael Snider" > >> I'm not really a >> fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems >> to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. >> / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream >> in smoother Numbers flows; ..." > > Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? > > The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense > > .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: X / > X / X / X / X /. > > But: > > Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows > > ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / > > While: > > And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows > > ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two > iambs -- X X / / X / X / X /. > > Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. > > > > Just a thot ... > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 09:02:09 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <6768ac830905050602i16d2141cv8759c652d6709052@mail.gmail.com> And Frost called it a "double iamb." Do the Augustans really deserve their reputaton for metrical regularity, or is it that their rhetorical strategies make them feel less ... excitable? On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:31 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote: > Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in public. > > Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is a cadence > rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee in the previous line) > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... > > >> ? ? ? ? ? [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] >> >> From: "Michael Snider" >> >>> I'm not really a >>> fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems >>> to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. >>> / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream >>> in smoother Numbers flows; ..." >> >> Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? >> >> ? ? ? ? The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense >> >> .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: ?X / >> X / X / X / X /. >> >> But: >> >> ? ? ? ? Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows >> >> ... begins with a trochiac substutution: ?/ X X / X / X / X / >> >> While: >> >> ? ? ? ? And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows >> >> ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two iambs >> -- ?X X / / X / X / X /. >> >> Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. >> >> ? ? ? >> >> Just a thot ... >> >> Robin >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 09:08:15 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <49FE103D.4030202@opus40.org><7db1d01b0905031553m433d22b9o5a034f8b7f91bceb@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905031603n3700e53y2903f32bb2b6b47@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com><648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com><74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC><6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. There was a young lad from Japan, Whose poetry just would not scan. When they said, "but the swing Doesn't go with the thing," He said "I know but I like to squeeze just as many words into the last line as I possibly can." David Bircumshaw wrote: > Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in public. > > Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is a > cadence rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee in the > previous line) > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... > > >> [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] >> >> From: "Michael Snider" >> >>> I'm not really a >>> fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems >>> to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. >>> / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream >>> in smoother Numbers flows; ..." >> >> Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? >> >> The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense >> >> .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: >> X / X / X / X / X /. >> >> But: >> >> Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows >> >> ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / >> >> While: >> >> And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows >> >> ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two >> iambs -- X X / / X / X / X /. >> >> Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. >> >> >> >> Just a thot ... >> >> Robin >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 10:46:38 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905031618i3e3c5c05o82ab49cf83726c05@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> If I had a Lesser Ionic, I certainly would not mention it in public. The shame of it all! Best, Judy 2009/5/5 David Bircumshaw > Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in public. > > Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is a cadence > rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee in the previous line) > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" < > robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... > > > > [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] >> >> From: "Michael Snider" >> >> I'm not really a >>> fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems >>> to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. >>> / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream >>> in smoother Numbers flows; ..." >>> >> >> Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? >> >> The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense >> >> .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: X / >> X / X / X / X /. >> >> But: >> >> Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows >> >> ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / >> >> While: >> >> And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows >> >> ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two iambs >> -- X X / / X / X / X /. >> >> Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. >> >> >> >> Just a thot ... >> >> Robin >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/67f95b5c/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 5 10:48:35 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, they got the lesser part right, anyway. And what happens if a trochaic substitution is made in the woods where no one can hear it scream? c From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 5 10:48:47 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, they got the lesser part right, anyway. And what happens if a trochaic substitution is made in the woods where no one can hear it scream? c From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 11:24:49 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions are emblematic of bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete with Bigger Iambic feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ scansion as a useful tool for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that Baer's poem didnae succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it didnae hew to iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and therefore came off sounding 'clunky'.] Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a false distinction between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we speak poetry the same way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. But I'm happy to hear others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. Best, Judy 2009/5/5 Chris Lott > Well, they got the lesser part right, anyway. > > And what happens if a trochaic substitution is made in the woods where > no one can hear it scream? > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/f4f1434a/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 11:37:59 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A005D57.50804@opus40.org> There can be more than one reason why a poem doesn't succeed. I thought the poem was clever, and I like clever, But form and content are closely allied, and if a poet is saying "I am clever," and his scansion is saying "I can't control meter," then that clunks up against the "I am clever" message, and knocks it askew. Judy Prince wrote: > Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. > > However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions are > emblematic of bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete > with Bigger Iambic feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. > > And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ scansion as a > useful tool for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that > Baer's poem didnae succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not > bcuz it didnae hew to iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern > and therefore came off sounding 'clunky'.] > > Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a false > distinction between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we > speak poetry the same way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. > But I'm happy to hear others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. > > Best, > > Judy > > 2009/5/5 Chris Lott > > > Well, they got the lesser part right, anyway. > > And what happens if a trochaic substitution is made in the woods where > no one can hear it scream? > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 12:06:21 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> References: <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> Judy, Natural-sounding speech, even a good imitation of very colloquial sppech, can be written in fairly strict meter by any moderately intelligent person who's worked hard enough, but it isn't natural speech. In metrical verse there's a dance between the rhythms of ordinary speech and the rhythm suggested by the meter, which is why we can speak of metrical promotion and demotion: in a metrical line, syllables unaccented in ordinary speech can be nudged by tthe meter to slightly greater prominence, and accented syllables can be nudged to slightly lesser prominence. The key words there are "nudged" and "slightly," but they make a big difference in the music of the line. In free verse, all bets are off. Some poets pause at the ends of their lines; some don't. Some chant their verses; some speak plainly. Some acknowledge white space; some don't. Some deliberately make oral performance of their poems nearly impossible. That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want to have at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem the way I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has heard the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. That's also a problem with metrical verse if the poet doesn't establish the meter well enough to guide the reader, which I think is the case with "Letter of Resignation." The poem has other problems, too, but that's the one as makes it hard to read. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. > However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions are emblematic of > bad coaching. ?Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete with Bigger Iambic > feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. > And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ scansion as a useful tool > for appreciating poetry. ?[NOT!] ?[The reason, BTW, that Baer's poem didnae > succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it didnae hew to > iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and therefore came off > sounding 'clunky'.] > Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? ?Or is there a false distinction > between [spoken] prose and poetry? ?I believe that we speak poetry the same > way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. ?But I'm happy to hear > others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. > Best, > Judy From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 12:07:48 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A005D57.50804@opus40.org> References: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <4A005D57.50804@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905050907p5ab5ca66gd98f136e1c79a059@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:37 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > But form and content are closely allied, and if a poet is saying "I am > clever," and his scansion is saying "I can't control meter," then that > clunks up against the "I am clever" message, and knocks it askew. > Well said, Old Mole From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 12:12:01 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> Well, if anyone is interested in my version of cleverness as revealed through rhyme and meter, I've just posted Episode XXII of Situations at Anny's site -- http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 This one also has a touch of poignancy, as we lose one of our main characters. Michael Snider wrote: > Judy, > > Natural-sounding speech, even a good imitation of very colloquial > sppech, can be written in fairly strict meter by any moderately > intelligent person who's worked hard enough, but it isn't natural > speech. In metrical verse there's a dance between the rhythms of > ordinary speech and the rhythm suggested by the meter, which is why we > can speak of metrical promotion and demotion: in a metrical line, > syllables unaccented in ordinary speech can be nudged by tthe meter to > slightly greater prominence, and accented syllables can be nudged to > slightly lesser prominence. The key words there are "nudged" and > "slightly," but they make a big difference in the music of the line. > > In free verse, all bets are off. Some poets pause at the ends of their > lines; some don't. Some chant their verses; some speak plainly. Some > acknowledge white space; some don't. Some deliberately make oral > performance of their poems nearly impossible. > > That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want to have > at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem the way > I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has heard > the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. > > That's also a problem with metrical verse if the poet doesn't > establish the meter well enough to guide the reader, which I think is > the case with "Letter of Resignation." The poem has other problems, > too, but that's the one as makes it hard to read. > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. >> However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions are emblematic of >> bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete with Bigger Iambic >> feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. >> And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ scansion as a useful tool >> for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that Baer's poem didnae >> succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it didnae hew to >> iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and therefore came off >> sounding 'clunky'.] >> Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a false distinction >> between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we speak poetry the same >> way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. But I'm happy to hear >> others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. >> Best, >> Judy >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 12:14:59 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> References: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050914n361a8dbftb908f8ffdf0eb1aa@mail.gmail.com> Just saw this, Mole----it's wonderful. JP 2009/5/5 TheOldMole > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. > > > There was a young lad from Japan, > Whose poetry just would not scan. > When they said, "but the swing > Doesn't go with the thing," > He said "I know but I like to squeeze just as many words into the last line > as I possibly can." > > > David Bircumshaw wrote: > >> Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in public. >> >> Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is a cadence >> rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee in the previous line) >> >> >> David Bircumshaw >> Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" < >> robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < >> new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... >> >> >> [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] >>> >>> From: "Michael Snider" >>> >>> I'm not really a >>>> fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - such as Pope seems >>>> to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense. >>>> / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And the smooth Stream >>>> in smoother Numbers flows; ..." >>>> >>> >>> Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? >>> >>> The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense >>> >>> .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic pentameter line: X / >>> X / X / X / X /. >>> >>> But: >>> >>> Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows >>> >>> ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / >>> >>> While: >>> >>> And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows >>> >>> ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting for two iambs >>> -- X X / / X / X / X /. >>> >>> Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just a thot ... >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/5faafc30/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 12:17:59 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050914n361a8dbftb908f8ffdf0eb1aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905050914n361a8dbftb908f8ffdf0eb1aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0066B7.3050802@opus40.org> ...and not original. Judy Prince wrote: > Just saw this, Mole----it's wonderful. > > JP > > 2009/5/5 TheOldMole > > > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. > > > There was a young lad from Japan, > Whose poetry just would not scan. > When they said, "but the swing > Doesn't go with the thing," > He said "I know but I like to squeeze just as many words into the > last line as I possibly can." > > > David Bircumshaw wrote: > > Ah, Rob, thank you so much for mentioning the Lesser Ionic in > public. > > Mind you, Saintsbury would probably say that in English it is > a cadence rather than a true subsitution (unlike the trochee > in the previous line) > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot > Revisited ... > > > [Sorry, I couldn't resist this.] > > From: "Michael Snider" > > > I'm not really a > fan of what one might call "onomatopoetic meter" - > such as Pope seems > to advocate in the lines " The Sound must seem an > Eccho to the Sense. > / Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows, / And > the smooth Stream > in smoother Numbers flows; ..." > > > Isn't there a concealed metrical joke here? > > The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense > > .... is an utterly orthodox Heroic (Couplet) iambic > pentameter line: X / X / X / X / X /. > > But: > > Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows > > ... begins with a trochiac substutution: / X X / X / X / X / > > While: > > And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows > > ... begins with a Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot substituting > for two iambs -- X X / / X / X / X /. > > Hardly orthodox, in Augustan terms. > > > > Just a thot ... > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard at gmail.com Tue May 5 12:19:30 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Precisely why I don't write in meter. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Michael Snider wrote: That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want to have > at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem the way > I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has heard > the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/4d433dcf/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 12:19:26 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050919w1f3bbfa7p255ea1f95918c7ee@mail.gmail.com> I didnae realise you were writing soft porn Bodice Rippers, Mole! Just read the last one of the series, and have to admit I didn't like it. Am I missing a lot by not having read the first 11 or so? JP 2009/5/5 TheOldMole > Well, if anyone is interested in my version of cleverness as revealed > through rhyme and meter, I've just posted Episode XXII of Situations at > Anny's site -- > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > This one also has a touch of poignancy, as we lose one of our main > characters. > > > Michael Snider wrote: > >> Judy, >> >> Natural-sounding speech, even a good imitation of very colloquial >> sppech, can be written in fairly strict meter by any moderately >> intelligent person who's worked hard enough, but it isn't natural >> speech. In metrical verse there's a dance between the rhythms of >> ordinary speech and the rhythm suggested by the meter, which is why we >> can speak of metrical promotion and demotion: in a metrical line, >> syllables unaccented in ordinary speech can be nudged by tthe meter to >> slightly greater prominence, and accented syllables can be nudged to >> slightly lesser prominence. The key words there are "nudged" and >> "slightly," but they make a big difference in the music of the line. >> >> In free verse, all bets are off. Some poets pause at the ends of their >> lines; some don't. Some chant their verses; some speak plainly. Some >> acknowledge white space; some don't. Some deliberately make oral >> performance of their poems nearly impossible. >> >> That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want to have >> at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem the way >> I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has heard >> the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. >> >> That's also a problem with metrical verse if the poet doesn't >> establish the meter well enough to guide the reader, which I think is >> the case with "Letter of Resignation." The poem has other problems, >> too, but that's the one as makes it hard to read. >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Judy Prince >> wrote: >> >> >>> Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. >>> However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions are emblematic >>> of >>> bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete with Bigger Iambic >>> feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. >>> And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ scansion as a useful >>> tool >>> for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that Baer's poem >>> didnae >>> succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it didnae hew to >>> iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and therefore came off >>> sounding 'clunky'.] >>> Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a false distinction >>> between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we speak poetry the >>> same >>> way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. But I'm happy to hear >>> others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. >>> Best, >>> Judy >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/07670fe2/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 12:24:55 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905050924v6d7baa39g248dd597c4919aa4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:12 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Well, if anyone is interested in my version of cleverness as revealed > through rhyme and meter, I've just posted Episode XXII of Situations at > Anny's site -- > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > This one also has a touch of poignancy, as we lose one of our main > characters. > Damn, Tad, how'd I miss this? And finding out about it just as lunch ends means I can't read the beginning until tonight! Work sucks! From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 5 12:28:59 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050919w1f3bbfa7p255ea1f95918c7ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But no one would want to miss out on the pudenda/Wallenda rhyme, of course! On 5/5/09 11:19 AM, "Judy Prince" wrote: > I didnae realise you were writing soft porn Bodice Rippers, Mole! ?Just read > the last one of the series, and have to admit I didn't like it. ?Am I missing > a lot by not having read the first 11 or so? > > JP -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/77c1686f/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 12:30:45 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905050919w1f3bbfa7p255ea1f95918c7ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <4A006551.1090307@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905050919w1f3bbfa7p255ea1f95918c7ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0069B5.7070503@opus40.org> Actually the first 21 -- but no, you probably wouldn't like them either. Judy Prince wrote: > I didnae realise you were writing soft porn Bodice Rippers, Mole! > Just read the last one of the series, and have to admit I didn't like > it. Am I missing a lot by not having read the first 11 or so? > > JP > > 2009/5/5 TheOldMole > > > Well, if anyone is interested in my version of cleverness as > revealed through rhyme and meter, I've just posted Episode XXII of > Situations at Anny's site -- > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > > This one also has a touch of poignancy, as we lose one of our main > characters. > > > Michael Snider wrote: > > Judy, > > Natural-sounding speech, even a good imitation of very colloquial > sppech, can be written in fairly strict meter by any moderately > intelligent person who's worked hard enough, but it isn't natural > speech. In metrical verse there's a dance between the rhythms of > ordinary speech and the rhythm suggested by the meter, which > is why we > can speak of metrical promotion and demotion: in a metrical line, > syllables unaccented in ordinary speech can be nudged by tthe > meter to > slightly greater prominence, and accented syllables can be > nudged to > slightly lesser prominence. The key words there are "nudged" and > "slightly," but they make a big difference in the music of the > line. > > In free verse, all bets are off. Some poets pause at the ends > of their > lines; some don't. Some chant their verses; some speak > plainly. Some > acknowledge white space; some don't. Some deliberately make oral > performance of their poems nearly impossible. > > That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want > to have > at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem > the way > I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has > heard > the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. > > That's also a problem with metrical verse if the poet doesn't > establish the meter well enough to guide the reader, which I > think is > the case with "Letter of Resignation." The poem has other > problems, > too, but that's the one as makes it hard to read. > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Judy Prince > > wrote: > > > Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. > However, as with any football team, trochaic substitutions > are emblematic of > bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete > with Bigger Iambic > feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. > And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to employ > scansion as a useful tool > for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that > Baer's poem didnae > succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it > didnae hew to > iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and > therefore came off > sounding 'clunky'.] > Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a > false distinction > between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we > speak poetry the same > way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. But I'm > happy to hear > others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. > Best, > Judy > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Tue May 5 12:36:15 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.co m> References: <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090505123105.039dbd28@earthlink.net> I think you underestimate free verse and overemphasize the authority of individual performances.Think of it as you would a musical performance. Each is different, sometimes wildly so, but the underlying structure remains for the next take. A good way to test this would be comparing performances of the same piece (classical, jazz, blues, whatever) by the same artist at different times, even if the performer is also the composer. For the record, when I read metrical verse I allow myself all the freedoms that you complain of for free verse. But I'm always aware of the underlying pattern. Mark At 12:06 PM 5/5/2009, you wrote: >Judy, > >Natural-sounding speech, even a good imitation of very colloquial >sppech, can be written in fairly strict meter by any moderately >intelligent person who's worked hard enough, but it isn't natural >speech. In metrical verse there's a dance between the rhythms of >ordinary speech and the rhythm suggested by the meter, which is why we >can speak of metrical promotion and demotion: in a metrical line, >syllables unaccented in ordinary speech can be nudged by tthe meter to >slightly greater prominence, and accented syllables can be nudged to >slightly lesser prominence. The key words there are "nudged" and >"slightly," but they make a big difference in the music of the line. > >In free verse, all bets are off. Some poets pause at the ends of their >lines; some don't. Some chant their verses; some speak plainly. Some >acknowledge white space; some don't. Some deliberately make oral >performance of their poems nearly impossible. > >That's actually the reason I choose to write in meter ? I want to have >at least a fighting chance of getting a reader to hear a poem the way >I mean it to sound, and with free verse, unless the reader has heard >the author read a particular poem, the odds ain't good. > >That's also a problem with metrical verse if the poet doesn't >establish the meter well enough to guide the reader, which I think is >the case with "Letter of Resignation." The poem has other problems, >too, but that's the one as makes it hard to read. > > > >On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > Good question, Chris, for which I have no answer. > > However, as with any football team, trochaic > substitutions are emblematic of > > bad coaching. Lesser Ionic feet simply cannot compete with Bigger Iambic > > feet; hence, they should not be allowed on the field. > > And that is precisely why Ole Mole needs to > employ scansion as a useful tool > > for appreciating poetry. [NOT!] [The reason, BTW, that Baer's poem didnae > > succeed is bcuz it lacked imaginative power---not bcuz it didnae hew to > > iambic pentameter or a nother metrical pattern and therefore came off > > sounding 'clunky'.] > > Is poetry spoken the way that we speak? Or is there a false distinction > > between [spoken] prose and poetry? I believe that we speak poetry the same > > way we speak prose [metrically-measured, natch]. But I'm happy to hear > > others' views, as mine are evidence-limited. > > Best, > > Judy > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 12:39:49 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905050919w1f3bbfa7p255ea1f95918c7ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905050939o86866d3i34bf1f4fb0a18ddc@mail.gmail.com> Hmmmm......female high-fliers, indeed! jp 2009/5/5 David Graham > But no one would want to miss out on the pudenda/Wallenda rhyme, of > course! > > > On 5/5/09 11:19 AM, "Judy Prince" wrote: > > I didnae realise you were writing soft porn Bodice Rippers, Mole! Just > read the last one of the series, and have to admit I didn't like it. Am I > missing a lot by not having read the first 11 or so? > > JP > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/a725e7ea/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:16:22 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Northern Ireland poet Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905051016r73f8bbc8l16501c036c325826@mail.gmail.com> _______________ ALONE IN THE BACK CAF?, a new chapbook by Paul Murphy, has been published by Survivors' Poetry in London, England. The chapbook was funded and sponsored by the Esm?e Fairbairn Foundation. Paul Murphy was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland in 1965. He studied at the University of Warwick, gaining a B.A. in Film and Literature. >From there he went to Queen?s University in Belfast to study for an M.A. on T.S.Eliot and the French philosopher Jacques Lacan. Murphy has been writer-in-residence at the Albert-Ludwig Universitat, Freiburg im Breisgau, in Baden-Wurtemburg, in Germany. He also writes philosophy and enjoys working on the interface between poetry and philosophy. Paul Murphy's previous book, IN THE LUXEMBOURG GARDENS, was published by the University of Salzburg Press, in Salzburg, Austria. Also, Murphy's book T.S. ELIOT'S POSTMODERNIST COMPLAINT was published by Postpressed in Australia (www.postpressed.com.au). Paul Murphy has read from his work in Paris, Cambridge, Galway and Belfast. He is at the moment writing an oral history of the Black Forest. The cost of Paul Murphy's ALONE IN THE BACK CAF? is ?4.00 (or $8.00) and may be ordered from Survivors' Poetry at http://survivorspoetry.com/SP_Shop/index.php?productID=141 ... or directly by postal mail to Survivors? Poetry, Studio 11, Bickerton House, 25-27 Bickerton Road, Archway, London, England, N19 5JT Survivors? Poetry, a British non-profit established in 1991, promotes the writing of survivors of traumatic distress. Survivors' Poetry is in a unique position to act on its vision of a society in which survivors can work towards emotional and mental stability through the discipline and truth to self that is a prerequisite for the imaginative expression in language of traumatic experiences. Survivors? Poetry actively supports and promotes the sheer linguistic talent that many survivors bring to their insight into their own condition and that of others. Respectfully, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 13:17:16 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090505123105.039dbd28@earthlink.net> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090505123105.039dbd28@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905051017m371797dby60ca89dc89cc4954@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I think you underestimate free verse and overemphasize the authority of > individual performances.Think of it as you would a musical performance. Each > is different, sometimes wildly so, but the underlying structure remains for > the next take. A good way to test this would be comparing performances of > the same piece (classical, jazz, blues, whatever) by the same artist at > different times, even if the performer is also the composer. > > For the record, when I read metrical verse I allow myself all the freedoms > that you complain of for free verse. But I'm always aware of the underlying > pattern. > > Mark > Mark, it's precisely because I do consider the music - and I am a musician as well - that I don't think free verse gives much guidance to reader as to how the piece should sound. Of course there are variations from performance to performance in music, even in tightly controlled things like string quartets, which result from the delberate intentions of the performers and not from lack of skill. And there are variations in my readings of my own poems, some of which depend on my mood, some on the reaction of any audience, some on the nature of the audience. I even change words on the fly sometimes. And I know that there will be readers like you, who, while aware of the metrical structure, will take what liberties they will. But composers have time signatures and tempi and harmonic structure and can mark a passage forte or fortissimo - and I've got meter and (usually) rhyme. I'm not looking for reproducibiilty or scripted control. I'm looking for a reasonable chance that some stranger readng one of my poems aloud will produce the sound of natural speech -- of what Wordsworth called "a man speaking to men" (and of course meaning a human being speaking to human beings - there were several female poets of whom Wordsworth thought highly) -- modulated by meter. The odds of managing something similar in free verse are much smaller. That is not a denigration of free verse. It just means that what I want to accomplish is unlikely to happen using free verse. From junction at earthlink.net Tue May 5 15:05:23 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905051017m371797dby60ca89dc89cc4954@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090505123105.039dbd28@earthlink.net> <6768ac830905051017m371797dby60ca89dc89cc4954@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090505144903.03acf8d0@earthlink.net> If I read you correctly, you're saying that writing good free verse requires more skill? A flattering thought, tho I think it's more a matter of different skills. For me the whole point of free verse is the discovery of form, or, if you will, boundaries. That includes the form of the music, which can only be discovered by a first several stumblings through. One has to learn the limits of how to read it. A lot can happen within a set of boundaries. So it may be that there are also different skills involved in the reading of free verse. One measure might be that many of us don't experience the difficulty you do. Much of the guidance you enumerate in music is pretty recent. How does what you say apply to medieval and much of renaissance music, where there are no time signatures, dynamic markings, or tempi, and harmonics are and were then subject to interpretation? Where we often have little idea which instruments were used, even, in the case of vocal music, what the presumed accompanying instruments played? Just curious. Mark At 01:17 PM 5/5/2009, you wrote: >On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I think you underestimate free verse and overemphasize the authority of > > individual performances.Think of it as you would a musical > performance. Each > > is different, sometimes wildly so, but the underlying structure remains for > > the next take. A good way to test this would be comparing performances of > > the same piece (classical, jazz, blues, whatever) by the same artist at > > different times, even if the performer is also the composer. > > > > For the record, when I read metrical verse I allow myself all the freedoms > > that you complain of for free verse. But I'm always aware of the underlying > > pattern. > > > > Mark > > > >Mark, it's precisely because I do consider the music - and I am a >musician as well - that I don't think free verse gives much guidance >to reader as to how the piece should sound. Of course there are >variations from performance to performance in music, even in tightly >controlled things like string quartets, which result from the >delberate intentions of the performers and not from lack of skill. And >there are variations in my readings of my own poems, some of which >depend on my mood, some on the reaction of any audience, some on the >nature of the audience. I even change words on the fly sometimes. > >And I know that there will be readers like you, who, while aware of >the metrical structure, will take what liberties they will. > >But composers have time signatures and tempi and harmonic structure >and can mark a passage forte or fortissimo - and I've got meter and >(usually) rhyme. I'm not looking for reproducibiilty or scripted >control. I'm looking for a reasonable chance that some stranger readng >one of my poems aloud will produce the sound of natural speech -- of >what Wordsworth called "a man speaking to men" (and of course meaning >a human being speaking to human beings - there were several female >poets of whom Wordsworth thought highly) -- modulated by meter. The >odds of managing something similar in free verse are much smaller. > >That is not a denigration of free verse. It just means that what I >want to accomplish is unlikely to happen using free verse. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 15:15:06 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090505144903.03acf8d0@earthlink.net> References: <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <7db1d01b0905050746o27487b2fj5ef216c0955b9ec2@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905050824q38a9c6efr5b43df272e878367@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905050906t62c6ddc4o82be37cf07f7c8e8@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090505123105.039dbd28@earthlink.net> <6768ac830905051017m371797dby60ca89dc89cc4954@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090505144903.03acf8d0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905051215o5ea37bfapf32882e4aa60c689@mail.gmail.com> Good questions, Mark, and they deserve better answers than I can give on a break at work. I'll answer a little later today. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > If I read you correctly, you're saying that writing good free verse requires > more skill? A flattering thought, tho I think it's more a matter of > different skills. > > For me the whole point of free verse is the discovery of form, or, if you > will, boundaries. That includes the form of the music, which can only be > discovered by a first several stumblings through. One has to learn the > limits of how to read it. A lot can happen within a set of boundaries. So it > may be that there are also different skills involved in the reading of free > verse. > > One measure might be that many of us don't experience the difficulty you do. > > Much of the guidance you enumerate in music is pretty recent. How does what > you say apply to medieval and much of renaissance music, where there are no > time signatures, dynamic markings, or tempi, and harmonics are and were then > subject to interpretation? Where we often have little idea which instruments > were used, even, in the case of vocal music, what the presumed accompanying > instruments played? Just curious. > > Mark > > At 01:17 PM 5/5/2009, you wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >> > I think you underestimate free verse and overemphasize the authority of >> > individual performances.Think of it as you would a musical performance. >> > Each >> > is different, sometimes wildly so, but the underlying structure remains >> > for >> > the next take. A good way to test this would be comparing performances >> > of >> > the same piece (classical, jazz, blues, whatever) by the same artist at >> > different times, even if the performer is also the composer. >> > >> > For the record, when I read metrical verse I allow myself all the >> > freedoms >> > that you complain of for free verse. But I'm always aware of the >> > underlying >> > pattern. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> >> Mark, it's precisely because I do consider the music - and I am a >> musician as well - that I don't think free verse gives much guidance >> to reader as to how the piece should sound. Of course there are >> variations from performance to performance in music, even in tightly >> controlled things like string quartets, which result from the >> delberate intentions of the performers and not from lack of skill. And >> there are variations in my readings of my own poems, some of which >> depend on my mood, some on the reaction of any audience, some on the >> nature of the audience. I even change words on the fly sometimes. >> >> And I know that there will be readers like you, who, while aware of >> the metrical structure, will take what liberties they will. >> >> But composers have time signatures and tempi and harmonic structure >> and can mark a passage forte or fortissimo - and I've got meter and >> (usually) rhyme. I'm not looking for reproducibiilty or scripted >> control. I'm looking for a reasonable chance that some stranger readng >> one of my poems aloud will produce the sound of natural speech -- of >> what Wordsworth called ?"a man speaking to men" (and of course meaning >> a human being speaking to human beings - there were several female >> poets of whom Wordsworth thought highly) -- modulated by meter. The >> odds of managing something similar in free verse are much smaller. >> >> That is not a denigration of free verse. It just means that what I >> want to accomplish is unlikely to happen using free verse. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue May 5 15:23:49 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] test Message-ID: test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/f868e6d6/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 15:25:04 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6768ac830905051225r73086ff8w3280ab8b67b3350b@mail.gmail.com> Did we pass? On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > test > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 5 15:29:00 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> References: <648208b60905040923s35828967h30f6aa6e427e78bd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:08 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. Baer might beg to differ. I also though the poem was (mildly) clever. I'm not completely sure how I benefit from hearing where his meter stumbled. But then there are a lot of things in life that I-- as opposed to what someone maintained recently-- find that knowing more is NOT an advantage beyond the theoretical. I'm still struck by how differently people scan the same lines, by how much of that divergence apparently comes from expectations they bring to the reading, and that even in this simple case there's not much in the way of agreement. All the readings given are plausible. None seem to match what I hear. And once I start looking for a particular pattern, it's easy to find it... any pretense of actually understanding the line as it would have been read/spoken were I not looking for those patterns is lost. c From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:59:13 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Have a wonderful evening, Jim! I know it will be a great event. Will anyone be filming it? It would great to post something like that on the web! Suzanne On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Judy Prince wrote: > >> Enjoy, and let us know how it went! >> >> Judy >> > And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the > Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/85274676/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 16:03:03 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: References: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> It seems that several things are going on in discussions about scansion, metrical systems, and 'the way we read or speak' poems, Chris. And because there're so many things that we 'think' we all understand and mean in the discussions, but in fact we do not all understand and mean, your questions may not've been answered yet. For now, and just as a beginning, I want to pick up on your main point, and one with which I agree: how differently people scan the same lines. The differences are evidenced in these recent scans of the same poem by Baer, just as I've previously observed differences with several highly qualified poets' scans of a poem. This with the strong proviso, of course, that one finds several poets agreeing on some lines and some phrases---but far fewer lines and phrases than I'd have thought. It's reasonable to assume, I believe, that these scans differences aren't new to this century or the last or the preceding ones, at least back to Pip Sidney and his sister Mary who 'established' iambic pentameter blank verse in the 1580s. I'll stop for now, and do hope that some of our resident metrics experts will chime in. Best, Judy 2009/5/5 Chris Lott > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:08 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. > > Baer might beg to differ. I also though the poem was (mildly) clever. > I'm not completely sure how I benefit from hearing where his meter > stumbled. But then there are a lot of things in life that I-- as > opposed to what someone maintained recently-- find that knowing more > is NOT an advantage beyond the theoretical. > > I'm still struck by how differently people scan the same lines, by how > much of that divergence apparently comes from expectations they bring > to the reading, and that even in this simple case there's not much in > the way of agreement. > > All the readings given are plausible. None seem to match what I hear. > And once I start looking for a particular pattern, it's easy to find > it... any pretense of actually understanding the line as it would have > been read/spoken were I not looking for those patterns is lost. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/00bec007/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 17:04:06 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041002l17a1b478sbb078c2793c1e857@mail.gmail.com> <74279957C13F42B695D2DF111F96E960@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> I'm not so sure there have been huge disagreements over the scansion of Baer's poem. Those of us who have criticized certain lines have all pretty much criticized the same lines. I suspect if I were to go over a poem line by line with, say, Mike Snider, we'd agree a lot more than we'd disagree as to matters of scansion. Judy Prince wrote: > It seems that several things are going on in discussions about > scansion, metrical systems, and 'the way we read or speak' poems, > Chris. And because there're so many things that we 'think' we all > understand and mean in the discussions, but in fact we do not all > understand and mean, your questions may not've been answered yet. > > For now, and just as a beginning, I want to pick up on your main > point, and one with which I agree: how differently people scan the > same lines. > > The differences are evidenced in these recent scans of the same poem > by Baer, just as I've previously observed differences with several > highly qualified poets' scans of a poem. This with the strong > proviso, of course, that one finds several poets agreeing on some > lines and some phrases---but far fewer lines and phrases than I'd have > thought. > > It's reasonable to assume, I believe, that these scans differences > aren't new to this century or the last or the preceding ones, at least > back to Pip Sidney and his sister Mary who 'established' iambic > pentameter blank verse in the 1580s. > > I'll stop for now, and do hope that some of our resident metrics > experts will chime in. > > Best, > > Judy > > > > > > 2009/5/5 Chris Lott > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:08 AM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. > > Baer might beg to differ. I also though the poem was (mildly) clever. > I'm not completely sure how I benefit from hearing where his meter > stumbled. But then there are a lot of things in life that I-- as > opposed to what someone maintained recently-- find that knowing more > is NOT an advantage beyond the theoretical. > > I'm still struck by how differently people scan the same lines, by how > much of that divergence apparently comes from expectations they bring > to the reading, and that even in this simple case there's not much in > the way of agreement. > > All the readings given are plausible. None seem to match what I hear. > And once I start looking for a particular pattern, it's easy to find > it... any pretense of actually understanding the line as it would have > been read/spoken were I not looking for those patterns is lost. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 17:20:32 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> References: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905051420o647d1c2ds510a89edd616fd15@mail.gmail.com> Mark Weiss wrote: ?If I read you correctly, you're saying that writing good free verse requires more skill? A flattering thought, tho I think it's more a matter of different skills. For me the whole point of free verse is the discovery of form, or, if you will, boundaries. That includes the form of the music, which can only be discovered by a first several stumblings through. One has to learn the limits of how to read it. A lot can happen within a set of boundaries. So it may be that there are also different skills involved in the reading of free verse. One measure might be that many of us don't experience the difficulty you do. Much of the guidance you enumerate in music is pretty recent. How does what you say apply to medieval and much of renaissance music, where there are no time signatures, dynamic markings, or tempi, and harmonics are and were then subject to interpretation? Where we often have little idea which instruments were used, even, in the case of vocal music, what the presumed accompanying instruments played? Just curious.? I agree that it?s different skills, but the skills vary in the shape of their learning curves. The curve for metrical poetry is, at first, much steeper than that for free verse. It?s easier to bullshit your way through an open mic or a beginning writing course if you write free verse, just because it?s so damned obvious when meter and/or rhyme are pushing you around. Once you?ve got a basic competence with formal verse, though, the bullshitting is probably easier for metrical poets. Getting past bullshitting is just plain hard no matter what kind of verse you make. But what I was talking about was not writing good poetry, but writing so as to have the best chance of conveying the music I intended to put in the poem. You suggest, of free verse, that ?the form of the music ? can only be discovered by a first several stumblings through.? Well, yes. That?s what I?m saying, or at least the beginning of it. The spoken performance of a free verse poem is underdetermined in comparison to that of a well-made metrical poem [see note at bottom]. That is not a value judgement - it just means there will be more variance in a set of performances of a given free verse poem than in a set of performances of a given metrical poem. That suits Hal?s purposes, so he writes free verse. It doesn?t suit mine, so I write metrical verse. The question becomes just how much variance is consonant with the intentions of the poet. Take a look at this poem in today?s Slate, by Lucas Howard ( http://www.slate.com/id/2217621/ ) and then listen to him read it. [ For those who don?t want navigate, here are the first few lines: Out of the broad, open land they come. Out of a coal seam's hundred-thousand tons of overburden, out of shit-reek barns and shearing pens, or down from the powder blue derrick platforms of howling Cyclone rigs they rung by rung descend. ?????- In his reading, there?s absolutely no audible indication of any break where there is no punctuation - no pause at all, for instance, between ?seam?s? and ?hundred -thousand tons.?] Now I like this poem, especially when I hear him read it. But suppose I didn?t have that recording. How would I know that such visual violence should be completely undetectable in performance? Looking at that poem, a reasonable performer might very well try to respect the author?s intention by respecting the author?s layout of the poem. This is a pretty extreme example, but it applies to almost all free verse - consider Sharon Olds? tick of breaking lines after a definite article. That?s not in her performances. And then Jorie Graham, who does expect layout to affect performance. Certainly people unfamiliar with the metrical tradition may bend metrical verse as they read aloud (mostly by banging on the beats and the rhymes), but the printed poem is not going to be so different from the spoken one as it is above. Finally, about music notation. Yes, it?s fairly recent. But your initial reference was to classical, jazz, and blues, all fairly recent themselves. The earlier music was taught by apprenticeship - notation (and even more recently recording) means I can learn to perform something without ever meeting another performer of the piece. That is the same kind of thing I mean when I say metrical poetry guides performances by strangers in ways unavailable to free verse. ??????- The promised note: The meter in ?Letter of Resignation? is not well-handled, and that, along with trans-Atlantic differences in the pronunciation of ?hour,? is the cause of the most extreme differences in scansion. Notice there are many substitutions in the Pope, as well, but Pope has created metrical expectations which guide the scansion. Baer didn?t, in that poem. Sorry for going on so long. From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 5 17:57:12 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate Message-ID: The Independent - Creative minds: the links between mental illness and creativity http://tinyurl.com/ccpj74 Even has allusions to some research, which is rare... c From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue May 5 18:51:19 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60905051551mafcc3a8uaed5eb41a2acb493@mail.gmail.com> "The theory is based on the idea that there is no clear dividing line between the healthy and the mentally ill." Which is what eventually led me to leave a post-MFA job as a psychiatric aide at a mental institution: the longer I was there, the less difference I saw between those committed and those employed in their care. A too simple expression of what the "locos" and most of the rest of us have in common is a tendency not to think in straight lines, employing associative powers instead. - Jim On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > The Independent - Creative minds: the links between mental illness and > creativity > http://tinyurl.com/ccpj74 > > Even has allusions to some research, which is rare... > > c > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/7dc61109/attachment.html From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue May 5 19:37:59 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited Message-ID: Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry using archaic metrics of the past? Someone is bound to say that art doesn't evolve-- and I disagree. Because art is based in consciousness and consciousness does evolve. Of course, if you want to make old metrical poetry, go ahead. But if you want to make something new, don't you agree it's best to use new tools? Wouldn't a new metrical framework give you the possibility of an entirely new conception of poetic rhythm? One that replaces inaccurate moribund terminologies with something more scientific? You can't measure the speed of light with a sundial. Or neutrinos in a bird bath. You can't even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe. New poetry, it seems to me, must be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead incarnate. Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music. But the written word is highly indeterminate of its performance. If that's okay with you (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then your political stance regarding the poem's performance is that you don't mind someone reading it in another way than you intended. But this should not be (in my opinion) a reason to write poetry in old metrical forms, as Michael S. indicates. This is a damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write poetry that encourages inattention in performance (and probably in composition too, since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic poetry. There is a third choice: conceive of the spoken word in the framework of a metric able to capture fine subtleties of rhythm, accent (amplitude) and intonation. Contemporary musical notation, for example. Then, when you understand what the spoken word looks like in notation, you can begin to play with rhythm, accent & intonation so that your words become (with good luck and a sufficient period of apprenticeship) art. Now, a trained musician may be required when it comes to perform your work accurately. Or someone with a good ear who has learned from the recording. Is that terrible? I don't think so. As an additional benefit, you can then donate your old metrics texts to the rare book room. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/46dc0c38/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 19:52:09 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6768ac830905051652l16e9b904ie4a92df31a67bae2@mail.gmail.com> I guess we didn't pass. But you'd fail in any serious discussion of evolution. The only sense in which art might be said to evolve is in response to market pressures - that what evolution is, you know, the differential survival of certain kinds information in response to environmental change, and by that measure the most highly evolved form of art is probably the sitcom or the slasher flick, and postmodernist poetry is an extreme adaptation to a very small niche - which, in evolutionary history, is a sure path to extinction. Be more careful with your metaphors. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry using > archaic metrics of the past?? Someone is bound to say that art doesn't > evolve-- and I disagree.? Because art is based in consciousness and > consciousness does evolve.? Of course, if you want to make old metrical > poetry, go ahead.? But if you want to make something new, don't you agree > it's best to use new tools?? Wouldn't a new metrical framework give you the > possibility of an entirely new conception of poetic rhythm?? One that > replaces inaccurate moribund terminologies with something more scientific? > You can't measure the speed of light with a sundial.? Or neutrinos in a bird > bath.? You can't even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe.? New poetry, it > seems to me, must be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead > incarnate. > > Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music.? But the written > word is highly indeterminate of its performance.? If that's okay with you > (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then your political > stance regarding the poem's performance is that you don't mind someone > reading it in another way than you intended.? But this should not be (in my > opinion) a reason to write poetry in old metrical forms, as Michael S. > indicates.? This is a damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write > poetry that encourages inattention in performance (and probably in > composition too, since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic > poetry. > > There is a third choice: conceive of the spoken word in the framework of a > metric able to capture fine subtleties of rhythm, accent (amplitude) and > intonation.? Contemporary musical notation, for example.? Then, when you > understand what the spoken word looks like in notation, you can begin to > play with rhythm, accent & intonation so that your words become (with good > luck and a sufficient period of apprenticeship) art.? Now, a trained > musician may be required when it comes to perform your work accurately.? Or > someone with a good ear who has learned from the recording.? Is that > terrible? > > I don't think so.? As an additional benefit, you can then donate your old > metrics texts to the rare book room. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 5 20:12:11 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A00D5DB.8070404@opus40.org> It's Michael's reason -- I don't think he meant to prescribe it for everyone. The only reasons for using the old metrical forms are (a) some people still like reading them, and (b) some people still like writing in them. But in any case, this discussion has never been about whether or not people should be allowed to write in a wide variety of forms, but whether when people do write in received forms, they should be assessed in part for their skill in adhering to those forms. Crisman Cooley wrote: > Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry > using archaic metrics of the past? Someone is bound to say that art > doesn't evolve-- and I disagree. Because art is based in > consciousness and consciousness does evolve. Of course, if you want > to make old metrical poetry, go ahead. But if you want to make > something new, don't you agree it's best to use new tools? Wouldn't a > new metrical framework give you the possibility of an entirely new > conception of poetic rhythm? One that replaces inaccurate moribund > terminologies with something more scientific? You can't measure the > speed of light with a sundial. Or neutrinos in a bird bath. You > can't even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe. New poetry, it seems > to me, must be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead > incarnate. > > Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music. But the > written word is highly indeterminate of its performance. If that's > okay with you (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then > your political stance regarding the poem's performance is that you > don't mind someone reading it in another way than you intended. But > this should not be (in my opinion) a reason to write poetry in old > metrical forms, as Michael S. indicates. This is a > damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write poetry that > encourages inattention in performance (and probably in composition > too, since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic poetry. > > There is a third choice: conceive of the spoken word in the framework > of a metric able to capture fine subtleties of rhythm, accent > (amplitude) and intonation. Contemporary musical notation, for > example. Then, when you understand what the spoken word looks like in > notation, you can begin to play with rhythm, accent & intonation so > that your words become (with good luck and a sufficient period of > apprenticeship) art. Now, a trained musician may be required when it > comes to perform your work accurately. Or someone with a good ear who > has learned from the recording. Is that terrible? > > I don't think so. As an additional benefit, you can then donate your > old metrics texts to the rare book room. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 20:21:13 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <4A00D5DB.8070404@opus40.org> References: <4A00D5DB.8070404@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905051721q478651e4nf036a087c75bb22e@mail.gmail.com> You're right, Tad. Mr. Cooley may be very good at what he does, and more power to him. Other people can write whatever they want and however they want. But when they tell me what I do is an archaism, and they do so using an analogy which displays their abysmal ignorance of both sides of that analogy, I am not favorably impressed. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:12 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > It's Michael's reason -- I don't think he meant to prescribe it for > everyone. > > The only reasons for using the old metrical forms are (a) some people still > like reading them, and (b) some people still like writing in them. But in > any case, this discussion has never been about whether or not people should > be allowed to write in a wide variety of forms, but whether when people do > write in received forms, they should be assessed in part for their skill in > adhering to those forms. > > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >> Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry using >> archaic metrics of the past? ?Someone is bound to say that art doesn't >> evolve-- and I disagree. ?Because art is based in consciousness and >> consciousness does evolve. ?Of course, if you want to make old metrical >> poetry, go ahead. ?But if you want to make something new, don't you agree >> it's best to use new tools? ?Wouldn't a new metrical framework give you the >> possibility of an entirely new conception of poetic rhythm? ?One that >> replaces inaccurate moribund terminologies with something more scientific? >> ?You can't measure the speed of light with a sundial. ?Or neutrinos in a >> bird bath. ?You can't even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe. ?New poetry, >> it seems to me, must be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead >> incarnate. >> Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music. ?But the written >> word is highly indeterminate of its performance. ?If that's okay with you >> (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then your political >> stance regarding the poem's performance is that you don't mind someone >> reading it in another way than you intended. ?But this should not be (in my >> opinion) a reason to write poetry in old metrical forms, as Michael S. >> indicates. ?This is a damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write >> poetry that encourages inattention in performance (and probably in >> composition too, since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic >> poetry. >> There is a third choice: conceive of the spoken word in the framework of a >> metric able to capture fine subtleties of rhythm, accent (amplitude) and >> intonation. ?Contemporary musical notation, for example. ?Then, when you >> understand what the spoken word looks like in notation, you can begin to >> play with rhythm, accent & intonation so that your words become (with good >> luck and a sufficient period of apprenticeship) art. ?Now, a trained >> musician may be required when it comes to perform your work accurately. ?Or >> someone with a good ear who has learned from the recording. ?Is that >> terrible? >> I don't think so. ?As an additional benefit, you can then donate your old >> metrics texts to the rare book room. >> ?------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 5 20:22:31 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/2009 6:38:31 PM Central Daylight Time, ccooley@overdomain.com writes: > Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry using > archaic metrics of the past? Someone is bound to say that art doesn't > evolve-- and I disagree. Because art is based in consciousness and > consciousness does evolve. Of course, if you want to make old metrical poetry, go > ahead. But if you want to make something new, don't you agree it's best to use > new tools? Wouldn't a new metrical framework give you the possibility of > an entirely new conception of poetic rhythm? One that replaces inaccurate > moribund terminologies with something more scientific? You can't measure > the speed of light with a sundial. Or neutrinos in a bird bath. You can't > even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe. New poetry, it seems to me, must > be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead incarnate. I totally agree. Saying something like "pyrrhic/spondee in the first two feet" is simple enough and very common ("On a high hill, truth stands . . .") so there's no need to drag out the old Greek terms. Plus, if you want to talk about a poem that is predominantly in a five-foot line, why confuse things by reducing it to four feet with a four-syllable foot? Makes no sense to me at all. One can do all English iambic scansion with the following feet: iamb, trochee, spondee, pyrrhic. When you get into triple meters you might trot out something like a bacchic, but it's hardly worth the trouble since triple meters have a way of going their own way with little regard to subtlety of substitution. I think a lot of the problem with scansion is that folks think that scansion has something to do with the words in a line. A word can be a single foot, part of a foot, or spread across two or more feet. "Percipacity prevailing" is a perfection good line of trochaic tetrameter acatalectic (i.e. complete).Why try to scan it as something that goes /uuu/uuu if /u/u/u/u accounts for the rest of the lines? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/148ae5dd/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 5 20:24:30 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/2009 6:38:31 PM Central Daylight Time, ccooley@overdomain.com writes: > Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music. But the written > word is highly indeterminate of its performance. If that's okay with you > (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then your political > stance regarding the poem's performance is that you don't mind someone reading > it in another way than you intended. But this should not be (in my > opinion) a reason to write poetry in old metrical forms, as Michael S. indicates. > This is a damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write poetry that > encourages inattention in performance (and probably in composition too, > since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic poetry. Prose poems can surely have rhythm but rarely meter, unless they were first written in meter and printed as prose, which has often happened (sections of Moby Dick for example).. But rhythm exists in a realm separate from meter, though meter also embraces rhythm. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/080a5167/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 5 20:30:15 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/2009 7:21:34 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin@mikesnider.org writes: > > You're right, Tad. Mr. Cooley may be very good at what he does, and > more power to him. Other people can write whatever they want and > however they want. But when they tell me what I do is an archaism, and > they do so using an analogy which displays their abysmal ignorance of > both sides of that analogy, I am not favorably impressed. > This is also true, witness the many people who have said that all I5 lines sound alike. Well, they don't. And this is their particular joy. But it has a lot more to do with skill with language than with the placing of accent--all kinds of sound patterns come into play. "I celebrate myself, and sing myself." Would anyone deny that this is a good line of I5 that tries to make a political/poetical statement in terms of what follows? WW knew what he was doing. Beginning an free verse poem (admittedly in revision) with a good line of I5 was his way of saying, "Ef you." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/499dfa56/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:35:49 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60905051735m54c2630ch81fb4ea05bacc66b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Why do contemporary poets insist on analyzing contemporary poetry using > archaic metrics of the past? Someone is bound to say that art doesn't > evolve-- and I disagree. Because art is based in consciousness and > consciousness does evolve. Of course, if you want to make old metrical > poetry, go ahead. But if you want to make something new, don't you agree > it's best to use new tools? Wouldn't a new metrical framework give you the > possibility of an entirely new conception of poetic rhythm? One that > replaces inaccurate moribund terminologies with something more scientific? > You can't measure the speed of light with a sundial. Or neutrinos in a bird > bath. You can't even play Beethoven on a shepherd's pipe. New poetry, it > seems to me, must be new music-- or it is the living comatose or dead > incarnate. > > Prose poems suggest that prose could be a kind of music. But the written > word is highly indeterminate of its performance. If that's okay with you > (as it seems to be to the writers of prose poems)-- then your political > stance regarding the poem's performance is that you don't mind someone > reading it in another way than you intended. But this should not be (in my > opinion) a reason to write poetry in old metrical forms, as Michael S. > indicates. This is a damned-if-you-do/n't choice I think: either write > poetry that encourages inattention in performance (and probably in > composition too, since we all have prose habits I'd guess) or write archaic > poetry. > > There is a third choice: conceive of the spoken word in the framework of a > metric able to capture fine subtleties of rhythm, accent (amplitude) and > intonation. Contemporary musical notation, for example. Then, when you > understand what the spoken word looks like in notation, you can begin to > play with rhythm, accent & intonation so that your words become (with good > luck and a sufficient period of apprenticeship) art. Now, a trained > musician may be required when it comes to perform your work accurately. Or > someone with a good ear who has learned from the recording. Is that > terrible? > > I don't think so. As an additional benefit, you can then donate your old > metrics texts to the rare book room. Thank you. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/154c1f5a/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:41:12 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60905051741v28c6181cx9bcaf20f7ae78da3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:30 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 5/5/2009 7:21:34 PM Central Daylight Time, > mandolin@mikesnider.org writes: > > > You're right, Tad. Mr. Cooley may be very good at what he does, and > more power to him. Other people can write whatever they want and > however they want. But when they tell me what I do is an archaism, and > they do so using an analogy which displays their abysmal ignorance of > both sides of that analogy, I am not favorably impressed. > > > This is also true, witness the many people who have said that all I5 lines > sound alike. Well, they don't. And this is their particular joy. But it > has a lot more to do with skill with language than with the placing of > accent--all kinds of sound patterns come into play. > > "I celebrate myself, and sing myself." > > Would anyone deny that this is a good line of I5 that tries to make a > political/poetical statement in terms of what follows? WW knew what he was > doing. Beginning an free verse poem (admittedly in revision) with a good > line of I5 was his way of saying, "Ef you." And you know this how? -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/45640466/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 20:58:03 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> References: <6768ac830905041150r5463804fg961b61f9f01b3a55@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> How many lines did you and the others actually scan? I think only a couple. But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me and Chris Lott. I write free verse, but would love to be able to do good blank verse. With the free verse, of course, I don't try to measure up lines with metrical schemes, but am always on the edge of 'hearing' a music to them, feeling the sounds' strong draw [as well as the urgency of internal rhymes, of wild-colliding images, and so forth, of course]. JP 2009/5/5 TheOldMole > I'm not so sure there have been huge disagreements over the scansion of > Baer's poem. Those of us who have criticized certain lines have all pretty > much criticized the same lines. I suspect if I were to go over a poem line > by line with, say, Mike Snider, we'd agree a lot more than we'd disagree as > to matters of scansion. > > Judy Prince wrote: > >> It seems that several things are going on in discussions about scansion, >> metrical systems, and 'the way we read or speak' poems, Chris. And because >> there're so many things that we 'think' we all understand and mean in the >> discussions, but in fact we do not all understand and mean, your questions >> may not've been answered yet. >> For now, and just as a beginning, I want to pick up on your main point, >> and one with which I agree: how differently people scan the same lines. >> The differences are evidenced in these recent scans of the same poem by >> Baer, just as I've previously observed differences with several highly >> qualified poets' scans of a poem. This with the strong proviso, of course, >> that one finds several poets agreeing on some lines and some phrases---but >> far fewer lines and phrases than I'd have thought. >> It's reasonable to assume, I believe, that these scans differences aren't >> new to this century or the last or the preceding ones, at least back to Pip >> Sidney and his sister Mary who 'established' iambic pentameter blank verse >> in the 1580s. >> I'll stop for now, and do hope that some of our resident metrics experts >> will chime in. >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> >> >> 2009/5/5 Chris Lott > >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:08 AM, TheOldMole > > wrote: >> > None of this is convincing me that scansion is a waste of time. >> >> Baer might beg to differ. I also though the poem was (mildly) clever. >> I'm not completely sure how I benefit from hearing where his meter >> stumbled. But then there are a lot of things in life that I-- as >> opposed to what someone maintained recently-- find that knowing more >> is NOT an advantage beyond the theoretical. >> >> I'm still struck by how differently people scan the same lines, by how >> much of that divergence apparently comes from expectations they bring >> to the reading, and that even in this simple case there's not much in >> the way of agreement. >> >> All the readings given are plausible. None seem to match what I hear. >> And once I start looking for a particular pattern, it's easy to find >> it... any pretense of actually understanding the line as it would have >> been read/spoken were I not looking for those patterns is lost. >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/cae2d547/attachment.html From locriansky at yahoo.com Tue May 5 21:34:41 2009 From: locriansky at yahoo.com (locriansky@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate In-Reply-To: <648208b60905051551mafcc3a8uaed5eb41a2acb493@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60905051551mafcc3a8uaed5eb41a2acb493@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <282849.45581.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you James! This is a most fascinating article and serves to validate many of my expressions on the differences between the aesthetics of mathematics and art. ? With different mental illnesses have different effects on creativity. The creativity needed to develop the theory of relativity, is, for example, very different from that required for producing surreal paintings, or poetry. Research is now homing in on whether the psychosis that is linked to different types of creativity comes through schizophrenia and schizotypy traits, through manic-depressive or cyclothymic traits, or traits associated with the autism and Asperger's disorders. A study at the University of Newcastle found significant differences between artistically creative people and mathematicians. While the artists showed schizotypy traits, mathematicians did not, and that fits in with the idea that mathematics and engineering, which require attention to detail, are closer to the autistic traits than to psychosis. ________________________________ From: James Cervantes To: Beverly Rainbolt ; Chris Lott ; David Graham ; Halvard Johnson ; Leslie Edwards ; Paul J Sampson Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 3:51:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate "The theory is based on the idea that there is no clear dividing line between the healthy and the mentally ill."??Which is what eventually led me to leave a post-MFA job as a psychiatric aide at a mental institution: the longer I was there, the less difference I saw between those committed and those employed in their care. ?A too simple expression of what the "locos" and most of the rest of us have in common is a tendency not to think in straight lines, employing associative powers instead. - Jim On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Chris Lott wrote: The Independent - Creative minds: the links between mental illness and creativity http://tinyurl.com/ccpj74 Even has allusions to some research, which is rare... c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/4b6e67b8/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 21:49:31 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] new book on evolution and literature Message-ID: <6768ac830905051849t1fdab2ccq58099c47bdcc6689@mail.gmail.com> It has a section titled Zeus to Seuss! http://www.nationalpost.com:80/arts/story.html?id=1562468 From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 21:59:24 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm a control freak Message-ID: <6768ac830905051859m360149b6mdc0fe6d5c62e7a20@mail.gmail.com> that's the title of the latest post at my blog, a distillation minus the rancor of my recent posts here: http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=647 From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 22:08:49 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > How many lines did you and the others actually scan? ?I think only a couple. > ?But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me and > Chris Lott. Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in scansion. From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 5 23:01:50 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> Since we haven't had several of us scan the entire poem, we won't know if that is true. And, my belief is that it doesn't matter which iambic pentametered poem we choose, it will be scanned differently, to a surprising degree, by each of us. Shall we take bets? Someone choose a poem [preferably NOT "Letter of Resignation"], and scan it, and others will follow suit. Best, Judy 2009/5/5 Michael Snider > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > How many lines did you and the others actually scan? I think only a > couple. > > But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me and > > Chris Lott. > > > Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of > lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know > the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in > scansion. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090505/8246c006/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Tue May 5 23:06:48 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> References: <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905052006y6313490bk4a8626c6717fad12@mail.gmail.com> I propose Robert Frost's "The Silken Tent" ( http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-silken-tent/ ) but it's my bedtime now, so I can't post a scansion till tomorrow,. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Since we haven't had several of us scan the entire poem, we won't know if > that is true. ?And, my belief is that it doesn't matter which iambic > pentametered poem we choose, it will be scanned differently, to a surprising > degree, by each of us. > Shall we take bets? ?Someone choose a poem [preferably NOT "Letter of > Resignation"], and scan it, and others will follow suit. > > Best, > Judy > 2009/5/5 Michael Snider >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince >> wrote: >> > How many lines did you and the others actually scan? ?I think only a >> > couple. >> > ?But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me >> > and >> > Chris Lott. >> >> >> Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of >> lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know >> the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in >> scansion. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 00:08:16 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830905041244j6728c690hd17db5a5c36e5b91@mail.gmail.com> <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A010D30.8080305@opus40.org> Judy Prince wrote: > Since we haven't had several of us scan the entire poem, we won't know > if that is true. And, my belief is that it doesn't matter which > iambic pentametered poem we choose, it will be scanned differently, to > a surprising degree, by each of us. > > Shall we take bets? Someone choose a poem [preferably NOT "Letter of > Resignation"], and scan it, and others will follow suit. > > Best, > > Judy Oh, why not beat a dead horse a little further? Dear [blank]: After much deliberation, without qualm, scruple, or further delay, I hereby tender my formal resignation as your lover and future fianc?. The job provides too little satisfaction: too many hours of unneeded duress, a paucity of productive interaction, uncertain working conditions, and endless stress. Pay-wise, I'm undervalued and disenchanted: advancement's slow, the bonus is routine, my "on-call" overtime is taken for granted, and benefits are few and far between. This document, I'm hopeful, underscores my deep regret. I'm very truly yours.... The first line's a little odd, so I'll save it for last. Lines 2 and 6 are the ones we've already discussed, So for the others. Line 3 has an extra syllable in the third foot, a feminine ending -- otherwise regular iambs: i HERE//by TEN//der my FOR//mal RES//igNAtion One could assign the extra unstressed syllable to the second foot. I wouldn't argue that -- I don't think it's important. 4th line scans as more or less regular I5 if you assume a truncated initial foot, and again an extra syllable in the third foot. Or you could scan it two trochaic substitutions in the first two feet. Either way you get two unaccented syllables together ("er and"). Since the alternative is painful (as YOUR lovER) I'd choose either of the first two versions. The 5th line has eleven syllables (feminine ending again) and every other syllable is stressed -- JOB, VIDES, LIT, SAT, FAC 7th line again has two unstressed syllables together ("of pro"), so again you'd have to choose between putting "of" in the second or third foot. I'd put it in the third, but either way, you have the two unstressed syllables together. then it's regular unstress-stress: DUC, IN, AC. 8th line has two pairs of unstressed syllables ("ing con," "tions and"), which you have to tuck in somewhere. I'd do it this way unCER//tain WORK//ing conDI//tions, and END//less stress. By this time we've pretty begun to accept that the guy likes those little hiccups of extra unstressed syllables, and we either accept them or we don't, I'm willing to. They don't torture my ear by making stresses fall on the wrong syllables. They're part of the poem's strategy. 9th line. Pay-wise is pretty much a spondee, but this is not a huge issue, If you want to make it iambic (pay-WISE) or even a trochaic inversion (PAY-wise) you can. None of those torture the scansion. Again you have the extra unstressed syllables, and again my choice would be to put it at the beginning of a foot - an anapestic substitution (ued and DIS)/ 10th line completely regular. VANCE, SLOW, BO, IS, TINE 11th line the extra syllable again (en for), otherwise every other syllable is stressed -- ON, OV, TIME, TAK, GRANT 12th regular - BEN, FITS, FEW, FAR, TWEEN 13th same - DOC, MENT, HOPE, UN, SCORE, and 14th DEEP, GRET, VER, TRU, YOURS Going back to the first line -- there's a wild hair because of that (blank). My suggestion is that the guy plan to mostly break up with girls with two syllable names: Dear BERtha: AFter MUCH deLIBeRAtion, All of these lines are regular enough -- the irregularities in the extra-syllable lines can be scanned one way or the other, but it comes out pretty much the same. I'm sure everyone would hear them differently, but I'm not so sure everyone would scan them differently. But I'm open to finding out. > > 2009/5/5 Michael Snider > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince > > wrote: > > How many lines did you and the others actually scan? I think > only a couple. > > But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least > with me and > > Chris Lott. > > > Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of > lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know > the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in > scansion. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 00:32:31 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905052006y6313490bk4a8626c6717fad12@mail.gmail.com> References: <4827294188F74CA29C3F96BEAEE1C485@RobinLaptopPC> <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905052006y6313490bk4a8626c6717fad12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0112DF.30109@opus40.org> And I'll try Mike's, although I suspect I'm the least qualified scansioneer here: She IS as IN a FIELD a SILken TENT At MIDday WHEN the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, SO that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, And ITS supPORTing CENtral CEDar POLE, That IS its PINnaCLE to HEAVenWARD And SIGniFIES the SUREness OF the SOUL, SEEMS to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINGle CORD, But STRICTly HELD by NONE, is LOOSEly BOUND By COUNTless SILKen TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT To EVery THING on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, And ONly BY one's GOing SLIGHTly TAUT IN the caPRIciousNESS of SUMmer AIR Is OF the SLIGHTest BONDage MADE aWARE. Trochaic substitutions in lines 4, 8, 13, otherwise completely regular alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, 5 of each to a line. It doesn?t sound metronomic, because there are such differences between the amounts of stress. ?In? in the first line and ?ness? in the 13^th are hardly stressed at all, for instance. But the stress is there, so that rhythmic variation is not an issue of scansion, I hear an tiny unpunctuated caesura after ?dew? in the third line, and a more pronounced unpunctuated caesura after ?guys? in the next ? others may not. Again, we may hear it differently, but that doesn?t mean we?d necessarily scan it differently. ?By? in line 10 wants to be a more pronounced nonstress, but the internal rhyme of BOUND-COUNT, and the enjambment, conspire to slap it down. Others may disagree with that, but again, it?s not a scansion issue. Michael Snider wrote: > I propose Robert Frost's "The Silken Tent" ( > http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-silken-tent/ ) but it's my bedtime > now, so I can't post a scansion till tomorrow,. > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Since we haven't had several of us scan the entire poem, we won't know if >> that is true. And, my belief is that it doesn't matter which iambic >> pentametered poem we choose, it will be scanned differently, to a surprising >> degree, by each of us. >> Shall we take bets? Someone choose a poem [preferably NOT "Letter of >> Resignation"], and scan it, and others will follow suit. >> >> Best, >> Judy >> 2009/5/5 Michael Snider >> >>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince >>> wrote: >>> >>>> How many lines did you and the others actually scan? I think only a >>>> couple. >>>> But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me >>>> and >>>> Chris Lott. >>>> >>> Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of >>> lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know >>> the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in >>> scansion. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 03:36:46 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> Judy here. I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, Mole, so will do the same: *The Silken Tent by Robert Frost* 1) SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT /u /u u/ u/ u/ 2) At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE uul uu/ u/ u/ 3) Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ 4) So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ 5) And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ 6) That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward uu u/ uu u/ uu 7) And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, u/ uu u/ uu u/ 8) Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ 9) But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND u/ uu u/ u/ u/ 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, u/ uu u/ u/ u/ 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT u/ uu u/ uu u/ 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR uu u/ uu u/ u/ 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. uu u/ u/ uu u/ i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest 1) t t i i i 2) a a i i 3) i i i i i 4) p i i i i 5) p i i i i 6) p i p i p 7) i p i p i 8) p i i i i 9) i p i i i 10) i i i i i 11) i p i i i 12) i p i p i 13) p i p i i 14) p i i p i -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/d8b15eda/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 08:55:00 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> I haven't read you scansion, yet, Judy, and I likely won't be able to until around 10 tonight. Here's mine: The Silken Tent She IS / as IN / a FIELD / a SIL/ken TENT At MID/day WHEN / the SUN/ny SUM/mer BREEZE Has DRIED / the DEW / and ALL / its ROPES / reLENT, So THAT / in GUYS / it GENT/ly SWAYS / at EASE, And ITS / supPOR/ting CENT/ral CED/ar POLE, That IS / its PIN/naCLE / to HEAV/enWARD And SIG/niFIES / the SURE/ness OF / the SOUL, SEEM to / owe NAUGHT / to AN/y SIN/gle CORD, But STRIC/tly HELD / by NONE, / is LOOSE/ly BOUND By COUNT/less / SIL/ken TIES / of LOVE / and THOUGHT To EV/ery THING / on EARTH / the COM/pass ROUND, And ON/ly BY / one's GO/ing / SLIGHT/ly TAUT IN the / capRI/ciousNESS / of SUM/mer AIR Is OF / the SLIGHT/est BOND/age MADE / aWARE. I confess I expected more substitutions, and especially an anapest or two - but only 2 initial trochees, which are so conventional that they aren't always considered substitutions, and nothing else. 68 feet of 70 straight iambs! I suppose the first foot might be inverted as well - it's certainly not a strong iamb - but we usually stress verbs anyway. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > > Judy here. ?I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, > Mole, so will do the same: > > The Silken Tent by Robert Frost > > ? ?1) ?SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT ? /u /u u/ u/ u/ > ?2) ?At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE ? uul uu/ u/ u/ > ?3) ?Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, ? u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?4) ?So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?5) ?And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?6) ?That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward ? uu u/ uu u/ uu > ?7) ?And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, ? u/ uu u/ uu u/ > ?8) ?Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?9) ?But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND ? u/ uu u/ u/ u/ > 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT ? u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ > 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, ? u/ uu u/ u/ u/ > 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT ? u/ uu u/ uu u/ > 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR ? uu u/ uu u/ u/ > 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. ? uu u/ u/ uu u/ > > i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest > > ?1) ?t t i i i > ?2) ?a a i i > ?3) ?i i i i i > ?4) ?p i i i i > ?5) ?p i i i i > ?6) ?p i p i p > ?7) ?i p i p i > ?8) ?p i i i i > ?9) ?i p i i i > 10) ?i i i i i > 11) ?i p i i i > 12) ?i p i p i > 13) ?p i p i i > 14) ?p i i p i > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 09:12:36 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited ... In-Reply-To: <4A0112DF.30109@opus40.org> References: <4A003A3F.3090002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051303u68434d3emf8e17ccf6a5ffeb1@mail.gmail.com> <4A00A9C6.4060107@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905051758n219c0d4fhbf1c26e933c82bff@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905051908j342ceeefs50f4a07b6a91b418@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905052001i469ae5b7of528f487f9156ccd@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905052006y6313490bk4a8626c6717fad12@mail.gmail.com> <4A0112DF.30109@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060612h4c025a2en7460ab112d6125ef@mail.gmail.com> I got a brief reprieve from work! Tad, we diifer only in the first foot of line 4, which I marked as an iamb. But the stress is so light on either syllable that it might well be marked as pyrrhic, so there's no meaningful disagreement between us here. Your discussion of the poem's rhythm is spot on. I gotta admit I expected SOME irregularity in the feet. Gonna go look at Judy's tent, now, and if my reprieve continues come back to your full scansion of the Baer. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:32 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > And I'll try Mike's, although I suspect I'm the least qualified scansioneer > here: > > She IS as IN a FIELD a SILken TENT > At MIDday WHEN the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE > Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, > SO that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, > And ITS supPORTing CENtral CEDar POLE, > That IS its PINnaCLE to HEAVenWARD > And SIGniFIES the SUREness OF the SOUL, > SEEMS to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINGle CORD, > But STRICTly HELD by NONE, is LOOSEly BOUND > By COUNTless SILKen TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT > To EVery THING on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, > And ONly BY one's GOing SLIGHTly TAUT > IN the caPRIciousNESS of SUMmer AIR > Is OF the SLIGHTest BONDage MADE aWARE. > > Trochaic substitutions in lines 4, 8, 13, otherwise completely regular > alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, 5 of each to a line. It > doesn?t sound metronomic, because there are such differences between the > amounts of stress. ?In? in the first line and ?ness? in the 13^th are hardly > stressed at all, for instance. But the stress is there, so that rhythmic > variation is not an issue of scansion, I hear an tiny unpunctuated caesura > after ?dew? in the third line, and a more pronounced unpunctuated caesura > after ?guys? in the next ? others may not. Again, we may hear it > differently, but that doesn?t mean we?d necessarily scan it differently. > ?By? in line 10 wants to be a more pronounced nonstress, but the internal > rhyme of BOUND-COUNT, and the enjambment, conspire to slap it down. Others > may disagree with that, but again, it?s not a scansion issue. > > > > Michael Snider wrote: >> >> I propose Robert Frost's "The Silken Tent" ( >> http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-silken-tent/ ) but it's my bedtime >> now, so I can't post a scansion till tomorrow,. >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Judy Prince >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Since we haven't had several of us scan the entire poem, we won't know if >>> that is true. ?And, my belief is that it doesn't matter which iambic >>> pentametered poem we choose, it will be scanned differently, to a >>> surprising >>> degree, by each of us. >>> Shall we take bets? ?Someone choose a poem [preferably NOT "Letter of >>> Resignation"], and scan it, and others will follow suit. >>> >>> Best, >>> Judy >>> 2009/5/5 Michael Snider >>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Judy Prince >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> How many lines did you and the others actually scan? ?I think only a >>>>> couple. >>>>> ?But, still, the issue's up in the air, apparently---at least with me >>>>> and >>>>> Chris Lott. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Judy, as the Old Mole Tad said, there are really only a couple of >>>> lines in "Letter of Resignation" that are truly problematic. You know >>>> the old saying "Hard cases make bad law"? The same is true in >>>> scansion. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 09:51:18 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060651i2f4a4be6te4295667b10e264b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > > Judy here. ?I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, > Mole, so will do the same: > > The Silken Tent by Robert Frost > > ? ?1) ?SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT ? /u /u u/ u/ u/ > ?2) ?At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE ? uul uu/ u/ u/ > ?3) ?Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, ? u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?4) ?So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?5) ?And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?6) ?That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward ? uu u/ uu u/ uu > ?7) ?And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, ? u/ uu u/ uu u/ > ?8) ?Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, ? uu u/ u/ u/ u/ > ?9) ?But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND ? u/ uu u/ u/ u/ > 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT ? u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ > 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, ? u/ uu u/ u/ u/ > 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT ? u/ uu u/ uu u/ > 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR ? uu u/ uu u/ u/ > 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. ? uu u/ u/ uu u/ > > i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest > > ?1) ?t t i i i > ?2) ?a a i i > ?3) ?i i i i i > ?4) ?p i i i i > ?5) ?p i i i i > ?6) ?p i p i p > ?7) ?i p i p i > ?8) ?p i i i i > ?9) ?i p i i i > 10) ?i i i i i > 11) ?i p i i i > 12) ?i p i p i > 13) ?p i p i i > 14) ?p i i p i > I got an unexpected break. Judy, I'm not a pyrrhicide, I'm really not - but I don't think it's possible for a native speaker of English to speak this poem as you've marked it. Unlike the French, we go up and down, and truly pyrrhic feet in English are rare enough that some prosodists do claim they don't exist. From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 09:57:21 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look at mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. Michael Snider wrote: > I haven't read you scansion, yet, Judy, and I likely won't be able to > until around 10 tonight. Here's mine: > > The Silken Tent > > She IS / as IN / a FIELD / a SIL/ken TENT > At MID/day WHEN / the SUN/ny SUM/mer BREEZE > Has DRIED / the DEW / and ALL / its ROPES / reLENT, > So THAT / in GUYS / it GENT/ly SWAYS / at EASE, > And ITS / supPOR/ting CENT/ral CED/ar POLE, > That IS / its PIN/naCLE / to HEAV/enWARD > And SIG/niFIES / the SURE/ness OF / the SOUL, > SEEM to / owe NAUGHT / to AN/y SIN/gle CORD, > But STRIC/tly HELD / by NONE, / is LOOSE/ly BOUND > By COUNT/less / SIL/ken TIES / of LOVE / and THOUGHT > To EV/ery THING / on EARTH / the COM/pass ROUND, > And ON/ly BY / one's GO/ing / SLIGHT/ly TAUT > IN the / capRI/ciousNESS / of SUM/mer AIR > Is OF / the SLIGHT/est BOND/age MADE / aWARE. > > I confess I expected more substitutions, and especially an anapest or > two - but only 2 initial trochees, which are so conventional that they > aren't always considered substitutions, and nothing else. 68 feet of > 70 straight iambs! I suppose the first foot might be inverted as well > - it's certainly not a strong iamb - but we usually stress verbs > anyway. > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Judy here. I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, >> Mole, so will do the same: >> >> The Silken Tent by Robert Frost >> >> 1) SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT /u /u u/ u/ u/ >> 2) At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE uul uu/ u/ u/ >> 3) Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 4) So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 5) And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 6) That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward uu u/ uu u/ uu >> 7) And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 8) Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 9) But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR uu u/ uu u/ u/ >> 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. uu u/ u/ uu u/ >> >> i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest >> >> 1) t t i i i >> 2) a a i i >> 3) i i i i i >> 4) p i i i i >> 5) p i i i i >> 6) p i p i p >> 7) i p i p i >> 8) p i i i i >> 9) i p i i i >> 10) i i i i i >> 11) i p i i i >> 12) i p i p i >> 13) p i p i i >> 14) p i i p i >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 10:04:34 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look at > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. > Tad, I saw that SO that. It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a pyrrhic. From halvard at gmail.com Wed May 6 10:04:42 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> Message-ID: Thanks for all the scansion stuff, guys and gals. My tired old eyes need to rest. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look at > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. > > > Michael Snider wrote: > >> I haven't read you scansion, yet, Judy, and I likely won't be able to >> until around 10 tonight. Here's mine: >> >> The Silken Tent >> >> She IS / as IN / a FIELD / a SIL/ken TENT >> At MID/day WHEN / the SUN/ny SUM/mer BREEZE >> Has DRIED / the DEW / and ALL / its ROPES / reLENT, >> So THAT / in GUYS / it GENT/ly SWAYS / at EASE, >> And ITS / supPOR/ting CENT/ral CED/ar POLE, >> That IS / its PIN/naCLE / to HEAV/enWARD >> And SIG/niFIES / the SURE/ness OF / the SOUL, >> SEEM to / owe NAUGHT / to AN/y SIN/gle CORD, >> But STRIC/tly HELD / by NONE, / is LOOSE/ly BOUND >> By COUNT/less / SIL/ken TIES / of LOVE / and THOUGHT >> To EV/ery THING / on EARTH / the COM/pass ROUND, >> And ON/ly BY / one's GO/ing / SLIGHT/ly TAUT >> IN the / capRI/ciousNESS / of SUM/mer AIR >> Is OF / the SLIGHT/est BOND/age MADE / aWARE. >> >> I confess I expected more substitutions, and especially an anapest or >> two - but only 2 initial trochees, which are so conventional that they >> aren't always considered substitutions, and nothing else. 68 feet of >> 70 straight iambs! I suppose the first foot might be inverted as well >> - it's certainly not a strong iamb - but we usually stress verbs >> anyway. >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince >> wrote: >> >> >>> Judy here. I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, >>> Mole, so will do the same: >>> >>> The Silken Tent by Robert Frost >>> >>> 1) SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT /u /u u/ u/ u/ >>> 2) At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE uul uu/ u/ u/ >>> 3) Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >>> 4) So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >>> 5) And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >>> 6) That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward uu u/ uu u/ uu >>> 7) And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, u/ uu u/ uu u/ >>> 8) Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >>> 9) But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >>> 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >>> 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >>> 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT u/ uu u/ uu u/ >>> 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR uu u/ uu u/ u/ >>> 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. uu u/ u/ uu u/ >>> >>> i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest >>> >>> 1) t t i i i >>> 2) a a i i >>> 3) i i i i i >>> 4) p i i i i >>> 5) p i i i i >>> 6) p i p i p >>> 7) i p i p i >>> 8) p i i i i >>> 9) i p i i i >>> 10) i i i i i >>> 11) i p i i i >>> 12) i p i p i >>> 13) p i p i i >>> 14) p i i p i >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/2fddc189/attachment.html From mykelmarsh at comcast.net Wed May 6 10:07:50 2009 From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh@comcast.net) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate In-Reply-To: <282849.45581.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <737446249.5265461241618870516.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Why do we label out of the norm thinking or behaving as mental illness? It may be that the human brain just has a broader range of normal than "normal" people can relate to. For example, culture is mostly driven by assertive extroverts who often view introverted people as abnormal. Madness is not a scientific term. It is defined by each culture and how people function within that culture, at least in the less severe margins. Unless you can examine someones brain chemistry or thinking patterns scientifically, you cannot with certainty say that they have mental illness. Suicide is not necessarily indicative of mental illness either. You would have to look at the circumstances surrounding each case to make that link. I think it would be more accurate to say that artists and innovative thinkers tend to think differently would be more accurate, even that they may tend toward the side of a scale that includes mental illness as its endpoint. But in a human society that creates wars, operates a system of wealth distribution that values greed above all, and has no problem enslaving half the worlds population to continue its excessive standard of living, I think to use the term madness to mean anything but a diagnosed disease that interferes with an individuals ability to live a functional life is a judgment about what is normal and what is abnormal which is subjective. Artists and poets may be the sane ones in a society that is mad. ----- Original Message ----- From: locriansky@yahoo.com To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 6:34:41 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate Thank you James! This is a most fascinating article and serves to validate many of my expressions on the differences between the aesthetics of mathematics and art. With different mental illnesses have different effects on creativity. The creativity needed to develop the theory of relativity, is, for example, very different from that required for producing surreal paintings, or poetry. Research is now homing in on whether the psychosis that is linked to different types of creativity comes through schizophrenia and schizotypy traits, through manic-depressive or cyclothymic traits, or traits associated with the autism and Asperger's disorders. A study at the University of Newcastle found significant differences between artistically creative people and mathematicians. While the artists showed schizotypy traits, mathematicians did not, and that fits in with the idea that mathematics and engineering, which require attention to detail, are closer to the autistic traits than to psychosis. From: James Cervantes To: Beverly Rainbolt ; Chris Lott ; David Graham ; Halvard Johnson ; Leslie Edwards ; Paul J Sampson Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 3:51:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [Cafe-Blue] Fuel for the mental illness and creativity debate " The theory is based on the idea that there is no clear dividing line between the healthy and the mentally ill." Which is what eventually led me to leave a post-MFA job as a psychiatric aide at a mental institution: the longer I was there, the less difference I saw between those committed and those employed in their care. A too simple expression of what the "locos" and most of the rest of us have in common is a tendency not to think in straight lines, employing associative powers instead. - Jim On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Chris Lott < chris@chrislott.org > wrote: The Independent - Creative minds: the links between mental illness and creativity http://tinyurl.com/ccpj74 Even has allusions to some research, which is rare... c _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/3049f2bc/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 10:14:09 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060651i2f4a4be6te4295667b10e264b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060651i2f4a4be6te4295667b10e264b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A019B31.3010309@opus40.org> Pinsky has some good things to say in "The Sounds of Poetry" on this issue. Michael Snider wrote: > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Judy here. I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, >> Mole, so will do the same: >> >> The Silken Tent by Robert Frost >> >> 1) SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT /u /u u/ u/ u/ >> 2) At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE uul uu/ u/ u/ >> 3) Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 4) So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 5) And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 6) That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward uu u/ uu u/ uu >> 7) And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 8) Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 9) But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR uu u/ uu u/ u/ >> 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. uu u/ u/ uu u/ >> >> i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest >> >> 1) t t i i i >> 2) a a i i >> 3) i i i i i >> 4) p i i i i >> 5) p i i i i >> 6) p i p i p >> 7) i p i p i >> 8) p i i i i >> 9) i p i i i >> 10) i i i i i >> 11) i p i i i >> 12) i p i p i >> 13) p i p i i >> 14) p i i p i >> >> > I got an unexpected break. > > Judy, I'm not a pyrrhicide, I'm really not - but I don't think it's > possible for a native speaker of English to speak this poem as you've > marked it. Unlike the French, we go up and down, and truly pyrrhic > feet in English are rare enough that some prosodists do claim they > don't exist. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 10:18:33 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060651i2f4a4be6te4295667b10e264b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060651i2f4a4be6te4295667b10e264b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A019C39.9010107@opus40.org> I have to agree with Mike. I don't see how you can give "seems" in line 8 or "held" in line 9 no stress at all -- I can't find a way to say the lines out loud without touching those syllables at least a little more strongly than those around them. And stress mirrors sense in both those cases -- "seems" and "held" are also more important words. Michael Snider wrote: > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > >> Judy here. I like your way of showing stressed and unstressed syllables, >> Mole, so will do the same: >> >> The Silken Tent by Robert Frost >> >> 1) SHE is AS in a FIELD a SILken TENT /u /u u/ u/ u/ >> 2) At midDAY when the SUNny SUMmer BREEZE uul uu/ u/ u/ >> 3) Has DRIED the DEW and ALL its ROPES reLENT, u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 4) So that in GUYS it GENTly SWAYS at EASE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 5) And its supPORting CENtral CEdar POLE, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 6) That is its PINnacle to HEAvenward uu u/ uu u/ uu >> 7) And SIGnifies the SUREness of the SOUL, u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 8) Seems to owe NAUGHT to ANy SINgle CORD, uu u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 9) But STRICTly held by NONE, is LOOsely BOUND u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 10) By COUNTless SILken TIES of LOVE and THOUGHT u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ >> 11) To EVery thing on EARTH the COMpass ROUND, u/ uu u/ u/ u/ >> 12) And ONly by one's GOing slightly TAUT u/ uu u/ uu u/ >> 13) In the caPRIciousness of SUMmer AIR uu u/ uu u/ u/ >> 14) Is of the SLIGHtest BONdage made aWARE. uu u/ u/ uu u/ >> >> i=iamb; t=trochee; p=pyrrhic; a=anapest >> >> 1) t t i i i >> 2) a a i i >> 3) i i i i i >> 4) p i i i i >> 5) p i i i i >> 6) p i p i p >> 7) i p i p i >> 8) p i i i i >> 9) i p i i i >> 10) i i i i i >> 11) i p i i i >> 12) i p i p i >> 13) p i p i i >> 14) p i i p i >> >> > I got an unexpected break. > > Judy, I'm not a pyrrhicide, I'm really not - but I don't think it's > possible for a native speaker of English to speak this poem as you've > marked it. Unlike the French, we go up and down, and truly pyrrhic > feet in English are rare enough that some prosodists do claim they > don't exist. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com Wed May 6 10:25:36 2009 From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (Jorgensen, Alexander) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 59, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <200905061104.n46B42a3021331@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <92154.4903.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thought would share this piece appearing in Otoliths. Hope you enjoy. ? http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2009/04/alexander-jorgensen-kalachakra-ritual.html ? I've a few more pieces yet to complete over the coming months and then will focus mostly on writing. ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/8a7911d2/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 11:18:49 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> Seeking poems and stories for a friend's forthcoming journal, a member from a nother list suggested, as well, that those listmembers read a poem by Lateef Hamlet from the [co-editor] friend's anthology, *Flowers of Hamlet*. My response to the poem, and then the poem: Sounds lovely. The poem sounds lovely, as well but I don't know any women hearts that act that way. The ones I know, and am, are mighty battlers with militia besetting the most benign citizen or foreign force, with aching charges day and night to bring the claimed spoils to its feet, breaking backs, earning bounty for its very life. Best, gentle Judy 2009/5/6 > > : > > The heart of a woman is the only country > > That I can enter without a passport. > > Where no policeman > > Asks me for my card > > Or searches my suitcase > > Full of contraband joys > > Forbidden poems > > And delicious sorrows. > > The heart of a woman is the only country > > That does not heap up heavy weapons > > Nor force its citizens to fights its wars . > > *Lateef Hamlet * > > * * > > * * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/861a7203/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Wed May 6 11:26:29 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com > References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, there's no way that the "she" in line one could be stressed--makes no sense rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative pattern. But it's a pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? Mark At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look at > > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. > > >Tad, I saw that SO that. > >It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >pyrrhic. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 11:30:50 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> He could probably find it, however, in the heart of a puppy. Judy Prince wrote: > Seeking poems and stories for a friend's forthcoming journal, a member > from a nother list suggested, as well, that those listmembers read a > poem by Lateef Hamlet from the [co-editor] friend's anthology, > *Flowers of Hamlet*. My response to the poem, and then the poem: > > > > Sounds lovely. The poem sounds lovely, as well but I don't > know any women hearts that act that way. The ones I know, and am, are > mighty battlers with militia besetting the most benign citizen or > foreign force, with aching charges day and night to bring the claimed > spoils to its feet, breaking backs, earning bounty for its very life. > > Best, > > gentle Judy > > 2009/5/6 > > : > > The heart of a woman is the only country > > That I can enter without a passport. > > Where no policeman > > Asks me for my card > > Or searches my suitcase > > Full of contraband joys > > Forbidden poems > > And delicious sorrows. > > The heart of a woman is the only country > > That does not heap up heavy weapons > > Nor force its citizens to fights its wars . > > *Lateef Hamlet * > > * * > > * * > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed May 6 11:42:53 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> "In guys" -- guy wires, not that this stirs something in the male breast -- does add something substantively descriptive. But otherwise I kinda agree with Mark. Mark Weiss wrote: > More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and > Judy, there's no way that the "she" in line one could be > stressed--makes no sense rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the > quantitative pattern. But it's a pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" > is only there to fill out the meter). The use of metaphor is > intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to heaven and > swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? > > Mark > > At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to >> look at >> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. >> > >> Tad, I saw that SO that. >> >> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >> pyrrhic. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 11:48:00 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> Indeed, 'tis so, moley ole Mole. A grown dog's a good bet for true love, too. Cats, tho, I'm not so sure. One wonders about dormice....... Judy 2009/5/6 TheOldMole > He could probably find it, however, in the heart of a puppy. > > Judy Prince wrote: > >> Seeking poems and stories for a friend's forthcoming journal, a member >> from a nother list suggested, as well, that those listmembers read a poem by >> Lateef Hamlet from the [co-editor] friend's anthology, *Flowers of Hamlet*. >> My response to the poem, and then the poem: >> >> >> >> Sounds lovely. The poem sounds lovely, as well but I don't know >> any women hearts that act that way. The ones I know, and am, are mighty >> battlers with militia besetting the most benign citizen or foreign force, >> with aching charges day and night to bring the claimed spoils to its feet, >> breaking backs, earning bounty for its very life. >> >> Best, >> >> gentle Judy >> >> 2009/5/6 >> : >> >> The heart of a woman is the only country >> >> That I can enter without a passport. >> >> Where no policeman >> >> Asks me for my card >> >> Or searches my suitcase >> >> Full of contraband joys >> >> Forbidden poems >> >> And delicious sorrows. >> >> The heart of a woman is the only country >> >> That does not heap up heavy weapons >> >> Nor force its citizens to fights its wars . >> >> *Lateef Hamlet * >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/52e10429/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 11:50:52 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060850p2aac4450h395ad009cf0073f3@mail.gmail.com> I dunno - my dog's pretty damned territorial. I think this kind of heart is found only in Care Bears. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Indeed, 'tis so, moley ole Mole. ?A grown dog's a good bet for true love, > too. ?Cats, tho, I'm not so sure. ?One wonders about dormice....... > Judy > > 2009/5/6 TheOldMole >> >> He could probably find it, however, in the heart of a puppy. >> >> Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>> Seeking poems and stories for a friend's forthcoming journal, a member >>> from a nother list suggested, as well, that those listmembers read a poem by >>> Lateef Hamlet from the [co-editor] friend's anthology, *Flowers of Hamlet*. >>> ?My response to the poem, and then the poem: >>> >>> >>> >>> Sounds lovely. ?The poem sounds lovely, as well but I don't know >>> any women hearts that act that way. ?The ones I know, and am, are mighty >>> battlers with militia besetting the most benign citizen or foreign force, >>> with aching charges day and night to bring the claimed spoils to its feet, >>> breaking backs, earning bounty for its very life. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> gentle Judy >>> >>> 2009/5/6 >>> ? ? : >>> >>> ? ?The heart of a woman is the only country >>> >>> ? ?That I can enter without a passport. >>> >>> ? ?Where no policeman >>> >>> ? ?Asks me for my card >>> >>> ? ?Or searches my suitcase >>> >>> ? ?Full of contraband joys >>> >>> ? ?Forbidden poems >>> >>> ? ?And delicious sorrows. >>> >>> ? ?The heart of a woman is the only country >>> >>> ? ?That does not heap up ?heavy weapons >>> >>> ? ?Nor force its citizens to fights its wars . >>> >>> ? ?*Lateef Hamlet * >>> >>> ? ?* * >>> >>> ? ?* * >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 12:01:53 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060901u26583dbfi85263122ef39343b@mail.gmail.com> What quantitative pattern, Mark? English doesn't have quantities in the classical sense, and Frost certainly never concerned himself with any meter but, as he put it, the choice of strict or loose iambics. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, > there's no way that the "she" in line one could be stressed--makes no sense > rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative pattern. But it's a > pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). > The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to > heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? > > Mark > > At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look >> > at >> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. >> > >> Tad, I saw that SO that. >> >> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >> pyrrhic. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 12:04:29 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060850p2aac4450h395ad009cf0073f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060850p2aac4450h395ad009cf0073f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905060904k47e404f6p2ee61551206bce3c@mail.gmail.com> ;-) possibly. BTW, Michael, I've chosen you to help me tell the NP world about the hilarious *Voted Best Commercial in Europe*, here to be seen on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FzgvXdQ9vE It's a propos of nothing.....and everything. JP 2009/5/6 Michael Snider > I dunno - my dog's pretty damned territorial. I think this kind of > heart is found only in Care Bears. > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > Indeed, 'tis so, moley ole Mole. A grown dog's a good bet for true love, > > too. Cats, tho, I'm not so sure. One wonders about dormice....... > > Judy > > > > 2009/5/6 TheOldMole > >> > >> He could probably find it, however, in the heart of a puppy. > >> > >> Judy Prince wrote: > >>> > >>> Seeking poems and stories for a friend's forthcoming journal, a member > >>> from a nother list suggested, as well, that those listmembers read a > poem by > >>> Lateef Hamlet from the [co-editor] friend's anthology, *Flowers of > Hamlet*. > >>> My response to the poem, and then the poem: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sounds lovely. The poem sounds lovely, as well but I don't know > >>> any women hearts that act that way. The ones I know, and am, are > mighty > >>> battlers with militia besetting the most benign citizen or foreign > force, > >>> with aching charges day and night to bring the claimed spoils to its > feet, > >>> breaking backs, earning bounty for its very life. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> gentle Judy > >>> > >>> 2009/5/6 > >>> : > >>> > >>> The heart of a woman is the only country > >>> > >>> That I can enter without a passport. > >>> > >>> Where no policeman > >>> > >>> Asks me for my card > >>> > >>> Or searches my suitcase > >>> > >>> Full of contraband joys > >>> > >>> Forbidden poems > >>> > >>> And delicious sorrows. > >>> > >>> The heart of a woman is the only country > >>> > >>> That does not heap up heavy weapons > >>> > >>> Nor force its citizens to fights its wars . > >>> > >>> *Lateef Hamlet * > >>> > >>> * * > >>> > >>> * * > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Tad Richards > >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >> > >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/8d2cc34d/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 12:09:24 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060909t2037bbd3o9b68dbe584cb86ff@mail.gmail.com> I like the poem a lot, myself. That penis thing's an ok joke, but he was comparing her to the tent, not the pole, and point is that her steadiness of soul, like that of pole, came from many connections to the world - the ties of love and thought in her which steady her soul in the way the tent's guy wires steady the pole. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > "In guys" -- guy wires, not that this stirs something in the male breast -- > does add something substantively descriptive. But otherwise I kinda agree > with Mark. > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, >> there's no way that the "she" in line one could be stressed--makes no sense >> rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative pattern. But it's a >> pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). >> The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to >> heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? >> >> Mark >> >> At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >>> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look >>> > at >>> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. >>> > >>> Tad, I saw that SO that. >>> >>> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >>> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >>> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >>> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >>> pyrrhic. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 12:21:11 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905060904k47e404f6p2ee61551206bce3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060850p2aac4450h395ad009cf0073f3@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905060904k47e404f6p2ee61551206bce3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905060921x521fe87fh110becce660906d3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > ;-) ?possibly. > BTW, Michael, I've chosen you to help me tell the NP world about the > hilarious *Voted Best Commercial in Europe*, here to be seen on YouTube: > ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FzgvXdQ9vE > It's a propos of nothing.....and everything. > JP > That is hilarious. You think it works? Do I have to write a sonnet about it? Wait - I did write a sonnet on the subject - though not at all funny (except perhaps through ineptitude - paradise and dice is pretty dicey rhyme) Call Me Frank Your mother and I were barely friends ? we met At college and we slept together twice That I remember. It was paradise! Oh, not the sex, it?s just I can?t forget We never, none of us, once felt regret For anything. No, we just rolled the dice And didn?t dream we?d have to sacrifice A thing ? when we crapped out we played roulette! I never wondered why she left. One fall She wasn?t there, and life went on. It does, You know, go on. And now you?re here, and I Can?t say what you should call me. Damn it all, She didn?t tell me, and she was right. She was. For now, just call me Frank. That?s not a lie. ------ For the record, the poem is a lie. I made it all up. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 6 12:28:55 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060909t2037bbd3o9b68dbe584cb86ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably one either like this sort of extended conceit or not, especially when it is so extravagant. I'm with Mike: it's a beautifully worked out analogy (Beloved as tent) that is as wild (silly?) as anything by Donne. It also works both formally (a one-sentence sonnet displaying the interconnectedness and fluency that it discusses) and thematically (a little meditation on the paradox of freedom-within-limitations in both love & art). On 5/6/09 11:09 AM, "Michael Snider" wrote: > I like the poem a lot, myself. That penis thing's an ok joke, but he > was comparing her to the tent, not the pole, and point is that her > steadiness of soul, like that of pole, came from many connections to > the world - the ties of love and thought in her which steady her soul > in the way the tent's guy wires steady the pole. > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> "In guys" -- guy wires, not that this stirs something in the male breast -- >> does add something substantively descriptive. But otherwise I kinda agree >> with Mark. >> >> Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>> More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, >>> there's no way that the "she" in line one could be stressed--makes no sense >>> rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative pattern. But it's a >>> pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). >>> The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to >>> heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >>>>> Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look >>>>> at >>>>> mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. >>>>> >>>> Tad, I saw that SO that. >>>> >>>> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >>>> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >>>> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >>>> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >>>> pyrrhic. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From junction at earthlink.net Wed May 6 12:32:27 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506123142.03dee438@earthlink.net> It's a tent. The guys are the ropes of the previous line. At 11:42 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >"In guys" -- guy wires, not that this stirs something in the male >breast -- does add something substantively descriptive. But >otherwise I kinda agree with Mark. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and >>Judy, there's no way that the "she" in line one could be >>stressed--makes no sense rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is >>the quantitative pattern. But it's a pretty silly poem (and that >>"in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). The use of metaphor >>is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to heaven and >>swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? >> >>Mark >> >>At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >>>On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >>> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look at >>> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. >>> > >>>Tad, I saw that SO that. >>> >>>It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter >>>is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths >>>of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference >>>beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a >>>pyrrhic. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Wed May 6 12:35:21 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060901u26583dbfi85263122ef39343b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> <6768ac830905060901u26583dbfi85263122ef39343b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506123336.03df0a00@earthlink.net> I don't have time to go through this. Not all stressed syllables are long, not all unstressed syllables are short. Length of syllable goes a long way to shaping the flow of any poem. At 12:01 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >What quantitative pattern, Mark? English doesn't have quantities in >the classical sense, and Frost certainly never concerned himself with >any meter but, as he put it, the choice of strict or loose iambics. > >On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, > > there's no way that the "she" in line one could be stressed--makes no sense > > rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative pattern. > But it's a > > pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out the meter). > > The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis pointing to > > heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? > > > > Mark > > > > At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look > >> > at > >> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. > >> > > >> Tad, I saw that SO that. > >> > >> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter > >> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths > >> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference > >> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a > >> pyrrhic. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Wed May 6 12:36:33 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060909t2037bbd3o9b68dbe584cb86ff@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060704i3b48bd98m447b7e2f6286f26@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090506111819.03dd5198@earthlink.net> <4A01AFFD.6060100@opus40.org> <6768ac830905060909t2037bbd3o9b68dbe584cb86ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090506123558.03df4218@earthlink.net> On ne discute pas... on ne badine pas... etc. At 12:09 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote: >I like the poem a lot, myself. That penis thing's an ok joke, but he >was comparing her to the tent, not the pole, and point is that her >steadiness of soul, like that of pole, came from many connections to >the world - the ties of love and thought in her which steady her soul >in the way the tent's guy wires steady the pole. > >On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > "In guys" -- guy wires, not that this stirs something in the male breast -- > > does add something substantively descriptive. But otherwise I kinda agree > > with Mark. > > > > Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > >> More interesting than the stress pattern (it's notably regular, and Judy, > >> there's no way that the "she" in line one could be > stressed--makes no sense > >> rhythmically or in terms of meaning) is the quantitative > pattern. But it's a > >> pretty silly poem (and that "in guys" is only there to fill out > the meter). > >> The use of metaphor is intriguing tho--"My love is like a penis > pointing to > >> heaven and swaying in the breeze." Think he scored? > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> At 10:04 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote: > >>> > >>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:57 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >>> > Mike -- I counted three, if memory serves -- haven't gone back to look > >>> > at > >>> > mine yet. I called SO that a trochee. > >>> > > >>> Tad, I saw that SO that. > >>> > >>> It's a don't care for me - as you said in your discussion, the meter > >>> is very regular and avoids being metronomic by varying the strengths > >>> of the stresses, and in some feet, including this one, the difference > >>> beteen stress and unstress is very subtle. I almost marked it a > >>> pyrrhic. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > -- > > Tad Richards > > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Wed May 6 14:26:23 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net><8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com><49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Thanks, Suzanne. I hope Jack is doing well enuf to attend. I'm not certain about filming or podcast. If so, I'll let everyone know, for sure. Jim F -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Burns Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert Have a wonderful evening, Jim!? I know it will be a great event.? Will anyone be filming it?? It would great to post something like that on the web! Suzanne On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: Judy Prince wrote: Enjoy, and let us know how it went! Judy And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/3539651c/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed May 6 15:52:36 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Craig Arnold News Message-ID: <731bb17a0905061252lb6d0d7clb2e40025e91efeeb@mail.gmail.com> http://www.localnews8.com/Global/story.asp?S=10314380&nav=menu554_2 CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - A group of trackers has picked up the trail of missing poet Craig Arnold on a tiny island in southern Japan. Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/79c4e041/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:50:41 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in the US last week, takes the first step towards what many consider to be the internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information that understands and responds to ordinary language in the same way a person does. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/c6c846c7/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:59:41 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] and again Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905061359v1d66248ai16d24c0601c3f389@mail.gmail.com> Did You Know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIDLIwlzkgY&NR=1 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/63b84d2c/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:28:18 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> Well, I like the name better than "Google." Wolfram Alpha is just geekie and techie enough. Wolfram Beta would have been a bust. - Jim On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in the US > last week, takes the first step towards what many consider to be the > internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information that understands and > responds to ordinary language in the same way a person does. > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/a29af113/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed May 6 21:02:00 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The New Life"/SPD Poetry Bestsellers March/April2009 In-Reply-To: <8CB9CC47066A193-628-1768@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> References: <224054.3127.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8CB9CC47066A193-628-1768@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> In the strange life of books, my?micro press (or intermittent press) has book on the SPD best seller list. Go figures! Finnegan Monday, May 4, 2009 SPD Poetry Best-sellers March/April 09 FACE by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) BREAKING POEMS by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) ZAATARDIVA by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) THE POETS GUIDE TO20THE BIRDS by J. Kitchen and T. Kooser, Eds. (Anhinga Press) THE SUMMER OF BLACK WIDOWS by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) LOBSTER WITH OL' DIRTY BASTARD by Michael Cirelli (Hanging Loose Press) LISA ROBERTSON'S MAGENTA SOUL WHIP by Lisa Robertson (Coach House Books) THE BATTLEFIELD WHERE THE MOON SAYS I LOVE YOU by Frank Stanford (Lost Roads Publishers) FALLING ANGELS: CUENTOS Y POEMAS by Olga Garcia Echeverria (Calaca Press/Chibcha Press) NATURAL LIGHT by Norma Cole (Libellum) UNDER FLAG [THIRD PRINTING] by Myung Mi Kim (Kelsey Street Press) NEW DEPTHS OF DEADPAN by Michael Gizzi (Burning Deck) DISASTER SUITES by Rob Halpern (Palm Press) IF THE DELTA WAS THE SEA by Dick Lourie (Hanging Loose Press) NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) COMPLETE MINIMAL POEMS by Aram Saroyan (Ugly Duckling Presse) SOME NOTES ON MY PROGRAMMING by Anselm Berrigan (Edge Books) AVERSIONS by Alfredo De Palchi (Xenos Books) BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY by D.A. Powell and David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) EUNOIA by Christian B?k (Coach House Books) OLD SHIRTS & NEW SKINS by Sherman Alexie20(American Indian Studies Center, UCLA) PUBLIC DOMAIN by M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) THE ALL-PURPOSE MAGICAL TENT by Lytton Sm ith (Nightboat Books) CLAMPDOWN by Jennifer Moxley (Flood Editions) PLUMMET by Christopher Nealon (Edge Books) THE NEW LIFE by Wally Swist (Plinth Books) THE SECRET OF WHITE by Barbara Tomash (Spuyten Duyvil) YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AM by Tao Lin (Action Books) SCAPE by Joshua Harmon (Black Ocean) PORTRAIT AND DREAM: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:21 PM 0 comments Links to this post Wednesday, April 29, 2009 Best Poem-In-Which-Every-Word-Is-Spelled-Wrong B ee Write a really good poem in which every word is really badly spelled! Win a $100 SPD Gift Certificate! Now everyone can get in on the action that will take place May 18th at the Crown Point Gallery in San Francisco when we have our Bee-In, a Spelling Bee to Benefit SPD. We realize that conceptual poets might have the edge in this competition, but feel that SPD readers and writers will be equal to the challenge. Two things that are true on the internet is that no one knows you are a dog and, with very little effort, everyone can spell. Hence the challenge to misspell, but with ?lan! Here?s the deal: Poem can be of any length but, you know, give us a break here, man. All words in the poem must be misspelled but must also be legible in some=2 0way or other. SPD staff will judge the entries. Email your poem to contest@spdbooks.org by May 18th, the day of the Bee-In, a Spelling Bee to Benefit SPD. Posted by Laura Moriarty at 3:31 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: Contests Tuesday, April 28, 2009 JUST IN! LOGOS AND LANGUAGE: A POST-JAZZ METAPHORICAL DIALOGUE by Steve Dalachinsky (RogueArt) DRIVING GRAVEL ROADS: 50 PROSE POEMS by Jim Johnson (Red Dragonfly Press) VERTEBRAE ROSARIES: 50 SONNETS by Philip Dacey (Red Dragonfly Press) THE FIRST LIGHT TOUCHES ME by Lyle Daggett (Red Dragonfly Press) THE EXTENDED WORDS: AN IMAGINARY DICTIONARY by Sid Gershgoren (Red Dragonfly Press) AMONG FRIENDS by Mary Lou Sanelli (Aequitas Books) LIGHT FROM A BULLET HOLE: POEMS NEW AND SELECTED, 1950-2008 by Ralph Salisbury (Silverfish Review Press) TEMPORARY BUNK by Lori Anderson Moseman (Swank Books) THE MISSING by Maurizio Cucchi (Agincourt Press) GOODBYE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE by James Sanders (BlazeVOX Books) SOMETHING TO EXCHANGE by Celia Gilbert (BlazeVOX Books) GEEK MAFIA: BLACK HAT BLUES by Rick Dakan (PM Press) HANGING LOOSE 94 edited by Robert Hershon, Dick Lourie, Mark Pawlak, and Ron Schreiber (Hanging Loose Press) MIDNIGHT HIGHWAY: A BRIGHT RIDE INSIDE A MAGICAL ROAD SHOW by Ken Wilkerson (Xenos Books) TRANSPARENCIES by Robert Edwards (Red Dragonfly Press) PETE'S GOLD by Luanne Armstrong (Ronsdale Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:11 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Mo nday, April 27, 2009 JUST IN! THE DANGEROUS SHIRT By Alberto R?os (Copper Canyon Press) TERM AS IN AFTERMATH by Alan Halsey (Ahadada Books) DEMOSTHENES' LEGACY by Jonathan Monroe (Ahadada Books) PITCH BLACK by Youme Landowne and Anthony Horton (Cinco Puntos Press) PRAYERS LIKE SHOES by Ruth Forman (Whit Press) TO HELL WITH SLEEP by Anselm Berrigan (Letter Machine Editions) ANOTHER RANDOM HEART by Sara Veglahn (Letter Machine Editions) THE RUSSIAN VERSION: SELECTED POEMS OF ELENA FANAILOVA by Elena Fanailova (Ugly Duckling Presse) I-5 by Summer Brenner (PM Press/Switchblade) THERE'S THE HAND AND THERE'S THE ARID CHAIR by Toma? alamun (Counterpath Press) THE KINGDOM OF POSSIBILITIES by Tim Mayo (Mayapple Press) PERFORMING WORLDS INTO BEING: NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN'S THEATER edited by Ann Elizabeth Armstrong, Kelli Lyon Johnson & William A. Wortman (Miami University Press) BEEN AND GONE by Julian Kornhauser (Marick Press) VISIONS FROM FINIS TERRAE: CHILEAN VOICES IN THE UNITED STATES edited by Pablo Arriar?n (Inter-American Dialogue/Marick Press) LIGHT LIGHT OR THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH by Harriet Zinnes (Marsh Hawk Press) FORT DAD by Stephen Paul Miller (Marsh Hawk Press) IN WAYS IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLD by Michael Rerick (Marsh Hawk Press) THE COMEBACK'S EXOSKELETON by Matthew Rotando (UpSet Press) STRANGER by Laura Sims (Fence Books) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:49 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Friday, April 17, 2009 JUST IN! FROM DAME QUICKLY by Jennifer20Scappettone (Litmus Press) THE RUST LIFE by Jack Crimmins (earthworm press & projects) STRANGE TERRAIN: A POETRY HANDBOOK FOR THE RELUCTANT READER by Alice B. Fogel (Hobblebush Books) SUBWAY MOON by Roy Nathanson (Buddy's Knife Jazz Edition) COMPOSITIONS FOR COMPUTER, VOLUME 1 by Joel Mellin (Kolourmeim Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:44 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Wednesday, April 15, 2009 FRANKLIN ROSEMONT SPD is saddened to learn of the passing of surrealist Franklin Rosemont. An obituary from the Chicago Surrealist Group is here. Posted by The Happy Intern at 10:34 AM 0 comments Links to this post Tuesday, April 14, 2009 SPD Archive, 1990 Here's Steve Dickison deciding if SPD can take on this case. As can be seen from his desk, Steve had many jobs at SPD?essentially three present-day positions in one. This is from the San Pab lo era (1986-1995). Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:49 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: SPD Archive Monday, April 13, 2009 JUST IN! BODY OF TEXT by David Ellingsen and Michael V. Smith (BookThug) TALKING MASKS (OEDIPUSSY) by Adam Seelig (BookThug) FACE by Melissa Buzzeo (BookThug) IN STEREO by Paul Hegedus (BookThug) SELF-PORTRAIT WITH CRAYON by Allison Benis White (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) TRUST by Liz Waldner (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) HORSE DANCE UNDERWATER by Helena Mesa (Cleveland State U Poetry Center)0ACHANT by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) SIDEWALK PORTRAIT by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) POEMS IN CONVERSATION AND A CONVERSATION by Elizabeth Alexander & Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon (Slapering Hol Press) THE DANCE OF THE DEMONS by Esther Singer Kreitman (The Feminist Press at CUNY) CITY OF WATER by Robert Thompson (Ahadada Books) WHAT ARE INTELLECTUALS GOOD FOR? by George Scialabba (Pressed Wafer) SIDEBROW 01 J. Snyder, J. Cleary & K. Leja, Eds. (Sidebrow) A MILLION IN PRIZES by Justin Marks (New Issues Poetry & Prose) HILARITY by Patty Seyburn (New Issues Poetry & Prose) Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:22 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Wednesday, April 8, 2009 JUST IN! Hurry Home Honey by Sawako Nakayasu (Burning Deck) World Ball Notebook by Sesshu Foster (City Lights) Zero at the Bone by Stacie Cassarino (New Issues Poetry & Prose) Dirt Angels by Donald Platt (New Issues Poetry & Prose) Islands Linked by Ocean by Lisa Linn Kanae (Bamboo Ridge Press) Dine-Rite: Breakfast Poems by Louis Daniel Brodsky (Time Being Books) Columbine: A True Crime Story, a Victim, the Killers and the Nation's Search for Answers by Jeff Kass (Ghost Road Press) Seaweed, Salmon, and Manzanita Cider: A California Indian Feast by Margaret Dubin and Sara-Larus Tolley (Heyday Books) Gospel by Samiya Bashir (Redbone20Press) Apology for the Book of Creatures by Dan Beachy-Quick (Ahsahta Press) Trillions & Trillions of Heartbeats by Meg Hamill (Resonant Books) Posted by The Happy Inte rn at 11:58 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Tuesday, April 7, 2009 SPD Archive, 1986 A sunny afternoon outside celebrating SPD's move to San Pablo Avenue. From left to right: Eileen Corder, Columbine Robinson, Nick Robinson, Lyn Hejinian snapshotting the photographer, Simone Fattal, and a suit. In the background is a barsign for The Bird, now known as The Albatross. And here's Kit Robinson on the same occasion dashingly cutting the ribbon with gardening shears. Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:27 PM 1 comments Links to this post Labels: SPD Archive SPD Archive, 1979 Season's Greetings from 1979! From left to right: David Bullen, Chuck Miller, Jeannetta Jones Miller, Jean Day with Casey Miller, and Nick Robinson. This photo was probably taken outside SPD's storefront on Shattuck, next to Serendipity Books. Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:48 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: SPD Archive BLOW-OUT VIDEOS! >From our Open House last weekend, shot by Oscar Bermeo: Posted by CLAY BANES at 2:59 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS, POEMS, VISITORS SPD Archive, 1978 The stunning cover of SPD's 1978 catalog. A mysterious neo-constructivist trend runs sporadically through SPD design history. This may be the only extant copy of this catalog, from way back when S PD was SBD: Serendipity Books Distribution. Posted by The Happy Intern at 2:30 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: SPD Archive Monday, April 6, 2009 PHOTOS BY OSCAR BERMEO Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:20 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS, VISITORS Friday, April 3, 2009 JUST IN! YOUNG REVOLUTIONARIES WHO ROCK by Dallas Jessup (Sutton Hart Press) THE HARDSHIP POST by Jehanne Dubrow (Three Candles Press) EXQUISITE CORPSE ANNUAL, NO. 1, 2009 edited by Andrei Codrescu and Mark Spitzer (Exquisite Corpse Annual/Chum Books) GETTING LOST IN A CITY LIKE THIS by Jack Anderson (Hanging Loose Press) THE KANSHI POEMS OF TAIGU RY?KAN by Taigu Ry?kan (Bottom Dog Press) FIRST BABY POEMS by Anne Waldman (BlazeVOX Books) IT MIGHT DO WELL WITH STRAWBERRIES by David Matlin (Marick Press) VARIATIONS ON A NATURAL THEME: A LOON YEAR by Hugh Hennedy (Hobblebush Books) IN THE ARENA: LIFE AND TIMES OF WILLIAM W. TREAT by Merle Drown (Hobblebush Books) IN SEARCH OF SMALL GODS by Jim Harrison (Copper Canyon Press) FUMBLING IN THE LIGHT by Sidney Hall Jr. (Hobblebush Books) VOLT: ART ON ART SPRING 2009 edited by Gillian Conoley (Volt) LEMON PEELED THE MOMENT BEFORE: NEW & SELECTED POEMS, 1967-2008 by Roger Mitchell (Ausable Press) THE MONSTER LOVES HIS LABYRINTH by Charles Simic (Ausable Press) AMORISCO by Zhaled Mattawa (Au sable Press) THE SKELETON OF THE CROW: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, 1980-2008 by Seido Ray Ronci (Ausable Press) MADE FL ESH by Craig Arnold (Ausable Press) Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:07 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM Small Press Distribution 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) Berkeley MAP ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS ? READINGS AT 2PM Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks & a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD Spring Open House! Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:40 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS JUST IN: JENNIFER MOXLEY'S CLAMPDOWN Jennifer Moxley's Clampdown captures a time of political despair and self-doubt. Our "so-called common ground" erodes where liberal thought, implicated in the systems it critiques, finds no traction and becomes the site of new divisions. Against the reality of distant wars, everyday pleasures?even love itself?become frayed by anxiety and shame. Likewise, the past and the future prove unstable, both close to oblivion in a "maddeningly quiescent landscape" of winter. Throughout Clampdown, Moxley responds to the evanescence of both life and art with all her poetic resources, at times declamatory and incisive, at others "freely espousing" and conversational. Post ed by CLAY BANES at 6:00 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Thursday, April 2, 2009 Handsome Young Men Really? ? SPD IN THE SF EXAMINER Posted by CLAY BANES at 12:42 PM 0 comments Links to this post Wednesday, April 1, 2009 SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM Small Press Distribution 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) Berkeley MAP ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS ? READINGS AT 2PM Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks, and a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD Spring Open House! Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:05 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS Friday, March 27, 2009 JUST IN! Plummet by Chris Nealon (Edge Books) Theogony by Douglas Rothschild (Subpress) Spell Albuqueque: Memoir of a "Difficult" Student by Tennessee Reed (AK Press) Map of the Hydrogen World by Steve Halle (Cracked Slab Books) Lightwall by Liliana Ursu (Zephyr Press) Extreme Positions by Stephen Bett (Spuyten Duyvil) Portland Noir edited by Kevin Sampsell (Akashic Books) Seattle Noir edited by Curt Colbert (Akashic Books) The Jook by Gary Phillips (PM Press/Switchblade) Legible Heavens by H.L. Hix (Etruscan P ress) Saint Joe's Passion by Jeremy Schraffenberger (Etruscan Press) A Poetics of Hiroshima by William Heyen (Etruscan Press) Songs of the Dead by Derrick Jensen (PM Press/Flashpoint) Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:07 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Wednesday, March 25, 2009 JUST IN! SONGS FOR TOMORROW: A COLLECTION OF POEMS 1960-2002 by Ko Un (Green Integer) POEMLAND by Chelsey Minnis (Wave Books) SUNNY WEDNESDAY by Noelle Kocot (Wave Books) UNION! by Ish Klein (Canarium Books) THE TANGLED LINE by Tod Marshall (Canarium Books) TAKE IT by Joshua Beckman (Wave Books) NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) LIGHT THICKENS by Elizabeth Biller Chapman (Ashland Poetry Press) INSEMINATING THE ELEPHANT by Lucia Perillo (Copper Canyon Press) THE CURVATURE OF BLUE by Lucille Lang Day (?erven? Barva Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:54 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Monday, March 23, 2009 JUST IN! Notes on Conceptualisms by Vanessa Place & Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse) Classification of a Spit Stain by Ellie Ga (Ugly Duckling Presse) Sometimes My Heart Pushes My Ribs by Ellen Kennedy (Muumuu House) Zero Summer by Andrew Demcak (BlazeVOX [books]) Nexus of Evil: Late Fragments, 1-7 by Andr? Spears (First Intensity Press) Delusions of Normality by J.P. Harpignies (Cool Grove Press) Journals from the Time of the Radar Dog by Pat Lawrence (BlazeVOX [books] ) Submissions by Jared Schickling (BlazeVOX [books]) Parataxis by Matt Hill (BlazeVOX [books]) DIS by Davis Schneiderman (BlazeVOX [books]) The Desense of Nonfense by Megan A. Volpert (BlazeVOX [books]) Astrometry Orgonon by Mark Lamoureux (BlazeVOX [books]) Bystander: An Irreality by mIEKAL aND (BlazeVOX [books]) String Parade by Jordan Stempleman (BlazeVOX [books]) For To by Skip Fox (BlazeVOX [books]) Theaters of the Tongue by Diana Adams (BlazeVOX [books]) Torched Verse Ends by Steven D. Schroeder (BlazeVOX [books]) Dead Letters by Alan May (BlazeVOX [books]) I Went Looking for You by Ruth Lepson (BlazeVOX [books]) Th?i B?nh: Great Peace by Kevin Bowen (Pressed Wafer) Alice Fantastic by Maggie Estep (Akashic Books) Of Mule and Man by Mike Farrell (Akashic Books) Posted by CLAY BANES at 11:43 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Friday, March 20, 2009 Small Press Distribution's New Lit Generation at=2 0City Lights 3/18 Pictures and video courtesy of the better-than-able Oscar Bermeo (whose own report of the night you can read here) ? See Oscar's full photo set here. ? Watch Oscar's video playlist here. Posted by CLAY BANES at 1:55 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS Wednesday, March 18, 2009 JUST IN! After-Dinner Declarations by Nicanor Parra (Host Publications) Face by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) German for Travelers: A Novel in 95 Lessons by Norah Labiner (Coffee House Press) Light, Moving by Carolyn Miller (Sixteen Rivers Press) The Spoils by Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press) Coal Mountain Elementary by Mark Nowak (Coffee House Press) Arena: On Anarchist Cinema edited by Richard Porton (PM PRess) Again by Lynne Knight (Sixteen Rivers Press) I Go To Some Hollow by Amina Cain (Les Figues Press) The Red Army Faction, A Documentary History: Volume 1: Projectiles for the People by J. Smith and Andr? Moncourt (PM Press) The 5th Inning by Ethelbert Miller (PM Press/Busboys and Poets) Portrait and Dream: New and Selected Poems by Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:27 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Thursday, March 12, 2009 suddenly spd is on facebook Posted by CLAY BANES at 5:45 PM 0 comments Links to this post JUST IN! BIG AMERICAN TRIP by Christian Peet (Shearman Books) BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY by D.A. Powe ll & David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY by Michael Heller (ahadada books) INFINITY BLUES by Ryan Adams (Akashic Books) RESISTANCE BEHIND BARS: THE STRUGGLES OF INCARCERATED WOMEN by Victoria Law (PM Press) TRAIN WRECK GIRL by Sean Carswell (Manic D Press) QUAKELAND by Francesca Lia Block (Manic D Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:33 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Tuesday, March 10, 2009 JUST IN! MAGDALENE=2 0& THE MERMAIDS by Elizabeth Kate Switaj (Paper Kite Press) THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING by Josie Kearns (Mayapple Press) TO BE HUNG FROM THE CEILING BY STRINGS OF VARYING LENGTHS by Rick Reid (Black Goat) SUCCESS: STORIES by David A. Taylor (Washington Writers' Publishing House) JOYCE CHO PLAYS by Joyce Cho (53rd State Press) THE TAO OF A WOMAN by Michele Ritterman (Skipping Stones Editions) ANDEAN EXPRESS by Juan de Recacoechea (Akashic Books) THE TORTURER'S WIFE by Thomas Glave (City Lights Publishers) WITH EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT: A PERSONAL ANTHOLOGY OF YIDDISH POETRY edited by Richard J. Fein (Host Publications) MATTERHORN: A NOVEL OF THE VIETNAM WAR by Karl Marlantes (El Le?n Literary Arts) UNDERWATER OVERGROUND/GAFFER TAPE by Citizen Fish (PM Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:21 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Monday, March 9, 2009 SPD Poetry Best-sellers January/February 09! BREAKING POEMS by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) FOUR LETTER WORDS by Truong Tran (Apogee Press) ZAATARDIVA by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) THE PLUM-STONE GAME by Kathleen Jesme (Ahsahta Press) COME TOGETHER: IMAGINE PEACE edited by Ann Smith, Larry Smith and Philip Metres (Bottom Dog Press) LYRIC POSTMODERNISMS: AN ANTHOLOGY OF CONTEMPORARY INNOVATIVE POETRIES edited by Reginald Shepherd (Counterpath Press) SHIMMING THE GLASS HOUSE by Helen Pruitt Wallace (Ashland Poetry Press) THE TREE OF NO by Sandy Florian (Action Books) ACTION KYLIE by Kevin Killian (ingirumimusnoct eetcomsumimurigni) EUNOIA by Christian B?k (Coach House Books) THE MAN SUIT by Zachary Schomburg (Black Ocean) THE TURNING by Maxine Chernoff (Apogee Press) ONEIROMANCE (AN EPITHALAMION) by Kathleen Rooney (Switchback Books) THE BUSINESS OF FANCYDANCING by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose) GIRL SCOUT NATION by Yedda Morrison (Displaced Press) MAXIMUM GAGA by Lara Glenum (Action Books) RAKING THE HOLLOW BONES by Bryan Tso Jones (Fairweather Books) THE SOUND MIRROR by Andrew Joron (Flood Editions) THE WHOLE MARIE by Barbara Maloutas (Ahsahta Press) THERE ARE BIRDS by John Taggart (Flood Editions) YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AM by Tao Lin (Action Books) AND HOW TO END IT by Brian Clements (Quale Press) NEWCOMER CAN'T SWIM by Renee Gladman (Kelsey Street Press) NIGHT SCENES by Lisa Jarnot (Flood Editions) PUBLIC DOMAIN by M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) PLEASE by Jericho Brown (New Issues Poetry & Prose) THE POETS GUIDE TO THE BIRDS edited by Judith Kitchen and Ted Kooser (Anhinga Press) TO AFTER THAT (TOAF) by Renee Gladman (Atelos) PETALS OF ZERO PETALS OF ONE by Andrew Zawacki (Talisman House) RADI OS by Ronald Johnson (Flood Editions) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:14 PM 0 comments Links to this post Older Posts Subscribe to: Posts (Atom) OUR WEBSITE Twitter Updates button from twittermysite Labels NEW BOOKS (54) VISITORS (28) Contests (14) POEMS (13)=2 0 BAD POETRY (12) EVENTS (11) SPD Archive (7) REVIEWS (5) NAIBA (2) NEIBA (2) PNBA (2) publishing (2) LA Festival of Books (1) NCIBA (1) Subscribe To Posts Atom Posts All Comments Contributors Tetra Zack Tuck Jeffrey Lependorf The Happy Intern Laura Moriarty CLAY BANES John Sakkis Brent Cunningham VISITS FROM EYEBALL HATRED Modern Americans {LIME TREE} "Exit, pursued by a bear." A Tonalist Notes An Upbeat Assessment of AWP ? VOWEL MOVERS Lorcaloca: SPD Bad Poem Contest: Results Top Sexy Celebrity Tarpaulin Sky News & Notes Intimacy Add-ons SWITCHBACK BOOKS ORGAN PLEASURE Pinch Pinch Press Silliman's Blog telephone : micawberesque : Ana Verse a handsome little sum pantaloons: THIS IS NOT christianpeet.com: New Work in Print: INTER, Vol. 1 Poetry In The Mind's Well WhimsyLand: Swimming Naked When Women Criticize ? ? amy king?s alias Just Words POETRY IS SO BORING Venepoetics the corporate library Expand this list ? Blog Archive May (3) April (18) March (23) February (9) January (2) December (8) November (16) October (25) September (29) August (27) July (10) ? Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449! by Anne Waldman (BlazeVOX Books) IT MIGHT DO WELL WITH STRAWBERRIES by David Matlin (Marick Press) VARIATIONS ON A NATURAL THEME: A LOON YEAR by Hugh Hennedy (Hobblebush Books) IN THE ARENA: LIFE AND TIMES OF WILLIAM W. TREAT by Merle Drown (Hobblebush Books) IN SEARCH OF SMALL GODS by Jim Harrison (Copper Canyon Press) FUMBLING IN THE LIGHT by Sidney Hall Jr. (Hobblebush Books) VOLT: ART ON ART SPRING 2009 edited by Gillian Conoley (Volt) LEMON PEELED THE MOMENT BEFORE: NEW & SELECTED POEMS, 1967-2008 by Roger Mitchell (Ausable Press) THE MONSTER LOVES HIS LABYRINTH by Charles Simic (Ausable Press) AMORISCO by Zhaled Mattawa (Au sable Press) THE SKELETON OF THE CROW: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, 1980-2008 by Seido Ray Ronci (Ausable Press) MADE FLESH by Craig Arnold (Ausable Press) Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:07 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM Small Press Distribution 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) Berkeley MAP ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS ? READINGS AT 2PM Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks & a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD Spring Open House! Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:40 AM 0 comments Links to this post =0 A Labels: EVENTS JUST IN: JENNIFER MOXLEY'S CLAMPDOWN Jennifer Moxley's Clampdown captures a time of political despair and self-doubt. Our "so-called common ground" erodes where liberal thought, implicated in the systems it critiques, finds no traction and becomes the site of new divisions. Against the reality of distant wars, everyday pleasures?even love itself?become frayed by anxiety and shame. Likewise, the past and the future prove unstable, both close to oblivion in a "maddeningly quiescent landscape" of winter. Throughout Clampdown, Moxley responds to the evanescence of both life and art with all her poetic resources, at times declamatory and incisive, at others "freely espousing" and conversational. Posted by CLAY BANES at 6:00 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Thursday, April 2, 2009 Handsome Young Men Really? ? SPD IN THE SF EXAMINER Posted by CLAY BANES at 12:42 PM 0 comments Links to this post Wednesday, April 1, 2009 SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM Small Press Distribution 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) Berkeley MAP ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS ? READINGS AT 2PM Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap Books,20Free Readings, Free Snacks, and a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD Spring Open House! Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:05 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS Friday, March 27, 2009 JUST IN! Plummet by Chris Nealon (Edge Books) Theogony by Douglas Rothschild (Subpress) Spell Albuqueque: Memoir of a "Difficult" Student by Tennessee Reed (AK Press) Map of the Hydrogen World by Steve Halle (Cracked Slab Books) Lightwall by Liliana Ursu (Zephyr Press) Extreme Positions by Stephen Bett (Spuyten Duyvil) Portland Noir edited by Kevin Sampsell (Akashic Books) Seattle Noir edited by Curt Colbert (Akashic Books) The Jook by Gary Phillips (PM Press/Switchblade) Legible Heavens by H.L. Hix (Etruscan Press) Saint Joe's Passion by Jeremy Schraffenberger (Etruscan Press) A Poetics of Hiroshima by William Heyen (Etruscan Press) Songs of the Dead by Derrick Jensen (PM Press/Flashpoint) Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:07 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Wednesday, March 25, 2009 JUST IN! SONGS FOR TOMORROW: A COLLECTION OF POEMS 1960-2002 by Ko Un (Green Integer) POEMLAND by Chelsey Minnis (Wave Books) SUNNY WEDNESDAY by Noelle Kocot (Wave Books) UNION! by Ish Klein (Canarium Books) THE TANGLED LINE by Tod Marshall (Canarium Books) TAKE IT by Joshua Beckman (Wave Books) NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) LIGHT THICKENS by Elizabeth Biller Chapman (Ashland Poetry Press) INSEMINATING THE ELEPHANT by Lucia Perillo (Copper Canyon Press) THE CURVATURE OF BLUE by Lucille Lang Day (?erven? Barva Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:54 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Monday, March 23, 2009 JUST IN! Notes on Conceptualisms by Vanessa Place & Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse) Classification of a Spit Stain by Ellie Ga (Ugly Duckling Presse) Sometimes My Heart Pushes My Ribs by Ellen Kennedy (Muumuu House) Zero Summer by Andrew Demcak (BlazeVOX [books]) Nexus of Evil: Late Fragments, 1-7 by Andr? Spears (First Intensity Press) Delusions of Normality by J.P. Harpignies (Cool Grove Press) Journals from the Time of the Radar Dog by Pat Lawrence (BlazeVOX [books]) Submissions by Jared Schickling (BlazeVOX [books]) Parataxis by Matt Hill (BlazeVOX [books]) DIS by Davis Schneiderman (BlazeVOX [books]) The Desense of Nonfense by Megan A. Volpert (BlazeVOX [books]) Astrometry Orgonon by Mark Lamoureux (BlazeVOX [books]) Bystander: An Irreality by mIEKAL aND (BlazeVOX [books]) String Parade by Jordan Stempleman (BlazeVOX [books]) For To by Skip Fox (BlazeVOX [books]) Theaters of the Tongue by Diana Adams (BlazeVOX [books]) Torched Verse Ends by Steven D. Schroeder (BlazeVOX [books]) Dead Letters by Alan May (BlazeVOX [books]) I Went Looking for You by Ruth Lepson (BlazeVOX [books]) Th?i B?nh: Great Peace by Kevin Bowen (Pressed Wafer) Alice Fantastic by Maggie Estep (Akashic Books) Of Mule and Man by Mike Farrell (Akashic Books) Posted by CLAY BANES at 11:43 AM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Friday, March 20, 2009 Small Press Distribution's New Lit Generation at=2 0City Lights 3/18 Pictures and video courtesy of the better-than-able Oscar Bermeo (whose own report of the night you can read here) ? See Oscar's full photo set here. ? Watch Oscar's video playlist here. Posted by CLAY BANES at 1:55 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: EVENTS Wednesday, March 18, 2009 JUST IN! After-Dinner Declarations by Nicanor Parra (Host Publications) Face by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) German for Travelers: A Novel in 95 Lessons by Norah Labiner (Coffee House Press) Light, Moving by Carolyn Miller (Sixteen Rivers Press) The Spoils by Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press) Coal Mountain Elementary by Mark Nowak (Coffee House Press) Arena: On Anarchist Cinema edited by Richard Porton (PM PRess) Again by Lynne Knight (Sixteen Rivers Press) I Go To Some Hollow by Amina Cain (Les Figues Press) The Red Army Faction, A Documentary History: Volume 1: Projectiles for the People by J. Smith and Andr? Moncourt (PM Press) The 5th Inning by Ethelbert Miller (PM Press/Busboys and Poets) Portrait and Dream: New and Selected Poems by Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:27 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Thursday, March 12, 2009 suddenly spd is on facebook Posted by CLAY BANES at 5:45 PM 0 comments Links to this post JUST IN! BIG AMERICAN TRIP by Christian Peet (Shearman Books) BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY by D.A. Powe ll & David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY by Michael Heller (ahadada books) INFINITY BLUES by Ryan Adams (Akashic Books) RESISTANCE BEHIND BARS: THE STRUGGLES OF INCARCERATED WOMEN by Victoria Law (PM Press) TRAIN WRECK GIRL by Sean Carswell (Manic D Press) QUAKELAND by Francesca Lia Block (Manic D Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:33 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Tuesday, March 10, 2009 JUST IN! MAGDALENE & THE MERMAIDS by Elizabeth Kate Switaj (Paper Kite Press) THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING by Josie Kearns (Mayapple Press) TO BE HUNG FROM THE CEILING BY STRINGS OF VARYING LENGTHS by Rick Reid (Black Goat) SUCCESS: STORIES by David A. Taylor (Washington Writers' Publishing House) JOYCE CHO PLAYS by Joyce Cho (53rd State Press) THE TAO OF A WOMAN by Michele Ritterman (Skipping Stones Editions) ANDEAN EXPRESS by Juan de Recacoechea (Akashic Books) THE TORTURER'S WIFE by Thomas Glave (City Lights Publishers) WITH EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT: A PERSONAL ANTHOLOGY OF YIDDISH POETRY edited by Richard J. Fein (Host Publications) MATTERHORN: A NOVEL OF THE VIETNAM WAR by Karl Marlantes (El Le?n Literary Arts) UNDERWATER OVERGROUND/GAFFER TAPE by Citizen Fish (PM Press) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:21 PM 0 comments Links to this post Labels: NEW BOOKS Monday, March 9, 2009 SPD Poetry Best-sellers January/February 09! BREAKING POEMS by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) FOUR LETTER WORDS by Truong Tran (Apogee Press) ZAATARDIVA by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) THE PLUM-STONE GAME by Kathleen Jesme (Ahsahta Press) COME TOGETHER: IMAGINE PEACE edited by Ann Smith, Larry Smith and Philip Metres (Bottom Dog Press) LYRIC POSTMODERNISMS: AN ANTHOLOGY OF CONTEMPORARY INNOVATIVE POETRIES edited by Reginald Shepherd (Counterpath Press) SHIMMING THE GLASS HOUSE by Helen Pruitt Wallace (Ashland Poetry Press) THE TREE OF NO by Sandy Florian (Action Books) ACTION KYLIE by Kevin Killian (ingirumimusnocteetcomsumimurigni) EUNOIA by Christian B?k (Coach House Books) THE MAN SUIT by Zachary Schomburg (Black Ocean) THE TURNING by Maxine Chernoff (Apogee Press) ONEIROMANCE (AN EPITHALAMION) by Kathleen Rooney (Switchback Books) THE BUSINESS OF FANCYDANCING by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose) GIRL SCOUT NATION by Yedda Morrison (Displaced Press) MAXIMUM GAGA by Lara Glenum (Action Books) RAKING THE HOLLOW BONES by Bryan Tso Jones (Fairweather Books) THE SOUND MIRROR by Andrew Joron (Flood Editions) THE WHOLE MARIE by Barbara Maloutas (Ahsahta Press) THERE ARE BIRDS by John Taggart (Flood Editions) YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AM by Tao Lin (Action Books) AND HOW TO END IT by Brian Clements (Quale Press) NEWCOMER CAN'T SWIM by Renee Gladman (Kelsey Street Press) NIGHT SCENES by Lisa Jarnot (Flood Editions) PUBLIC DOMAIN by M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) PLEASE by Jericho Brown (New Issues Poetry & Prose) THE POETS GUIDE TO THE BIRDS edited by Judith Kitchen and Ted Kooser (Anhinga Press) TO AFTER THAT (TOAF) by Renee Gladman (Atelos) PETALS OF ZERO PETALS OF ONE by Andrew Zawacki (Talisman House) RADI OS by Ronald Johnson (Flood Editions) Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:14 PM 0 comments Links to this post Older Posts Subscribe to: Posts (Atom) OUR WEBSITE Twitter Updates button from twittermysite Labels NEW BOOKS (54) VISITORS (28) Contests (14) POEMS (13) BAD POETRY (12) EVENTS (11) SPD Archive (7) REVIEWS (5) NAIBA (2) NEIBA (2) PNBA (2) publishing (2) LA Festival of Books (1) NCIBA (1) Subscribe To Posts Atom Posts All Comments Contributors Tetra Zack Tuck Jeffrey Lependorf The Happy Intern Laura Moriarty CLAY BANES John Sakkis Brent Cunningham VISITS FROM EYEBALL HATRED Modern Americans {LIME TREE} "Exit, pursued by a bear." A Tonalist Notes An Upbeat Assessment of AWP ? VOWEL MOVERS Lorcaloca: SPD Bad Poem Contest: Results Top Sexy Celebrity Tarpaulin Sky News & Notes Intimacy Add-ons SWITCHBACK BOOKS ORGAN PLEASURE Pinch Pinch Press Silliman's Blog telephone : micawberesque : Ana Verse a handsome little sum pantaloons: THIS IS NOT christianpeet.com: New Work in Print: INTER, Vol. 1 Poetry In The Mind's Well WhimsyLand: Swimming Naked When Women Criticize ? ? amy king?s alias Just Words POETRY IS SO BORING Venepoetics the corporate library Expand this list ? Blog Archive May (3) April (18) March (23) February (9) January (2) December (8) November (16) October (25) September (29) August (27) July (10) ? Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/1ca2f063/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Wed May 6 21:29:40 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The New Life"/SPD Poetry Bestsellers March/April2009 In-Reply-To: <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> References: <224054.3127.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8CB9CC47066A193-628-1768@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905061829p43d73957g98ba38dbf7aff9b3@mail.gmail.com> Hoopla! On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:02 PM, wrote: > In the strange life of books, my?micro press (or intermittent press) has > book on the SPD best seller list. > Go figures! > Finnegan > > Monday, May 4, 2009 > > SPD Poetry Best-sellers March/April 09 > > FACE by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > BREAKING POEMS by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > ZAATARDIVA by Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > THE POETS GUIDE TO20THE BIRDS by J. Kitchen and T. Kooser, Eds. (Anhinga > Press) > THE SUMMER OF BLACK WIDOWS by Sher man Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > LOBSTER WITH OL' DIRTY BASTARD by Michael Cirelli (Hanging Loose Press) > LISA ROBERTSON'S MAGENTA SOUL WHIP by Lisa Robertson (Coach House Books) > THE BATTLEFIELD WHERE THE MOON SAYS I LOVE YOU by Frank Stanford (Lost Roads > Publishers) > FALLING ANGELS: CUENTOS Y POEMAS by Olga Garcia Echeverria (Calaca > Press/Chibcha Press) > NATURAL LIGHT by Norma Cole (Libellum) > UNDER FLAG [THIRD PRINTING] by Myung Mi Kim (Kelsey Street Press) > NEW DEPTHS OF DEADPAN by Michael Gizzi (Burning Deck) > DISASTER SUITES by Rob Halpern (Palm Press) > IF THE DELTA WAS THE SEA by Dick Lourie (Hanging Loose Press) > NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > COMPLETE MINIMAL POEMS by Aram Saroyan (Ugly Duckling Presse) > SOME NOTES ON MY PROGRAMMING by Anselm Berrigan (Edge Books) > AVERSIONS by Alfredo De Palchi (Xenos Books) > BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY by D.A. Powell and David Trinidad (Turtle Point > Press) > EUNOIA by Christian B?k (Coach House Books) > OLD SHIRTS & NEW SKINS by Sherman Alexie (American Indian Studies Center, > UCLA) > PUBLIC DOMAIN by M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) > THE ALL-PURPOSE MAGICAL TENT by Lytton Sm ith (Nightboat Books) > CLAMPDOWN by Jennifer Moxley (Flood Editions) > PLUMMET by Christopher Nealon (Edge Books) > THE NEW LIFE by Wally Swist (Plinth Books) > THE SECRET OF WHITE by Barbara Tomash (Spuyten Duyvil) > YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AM by Tao Lin (Action Books) > SCAPE by Joshua Harmon (Black Ocean) > PORTRAIT AND DREAM: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Bill Berkson (Coffee House > Press) > > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:21 PM 0 comments Links to this post > > Wednesday, April 29, 2009 > > Best Poem-In-Which-Every-Word-Is-Spelled-Wrong B ee > > Write a really good poem in which every word is really badly spelled! > > Win a $100 SPD Gift Certificate! > > Now everyone can get in on the action that will take place May 18th at the > Crown Point Gallery in San Francisco when we have our Bee-In, a Spelling Bee > to Benefit SPD. > > We realize that conceptual poets might have the edge in this competition, > but feel that SPD readers and writers will be equal to the challenge. > > Two things that are true on the internet is that no one knows you are a dog > and, with very little effort, everyone can spell. Hence the challenge to > misspell, but with ?lan! > > Here?s the deal: > > Poem can be of any length but, you know, give us a break here, man. > All words in the poem must be misspelled but must also be legible in some > way or other. > SPD staff will judge the entries. > Email your poem to contest@spdbooks.org by May 18th, the day of the Bee-In, > a Spelling Bee to Benefit SPD. > > Posted by Laura Moriarty at 3:31 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: Contests > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > LOGOS AND LANGUAGE: A POST-JAZZ METAPHORICAL DIALOGUE by Steve Dalachinsky > (RogueArt) > DRIVING GRAVEL ROADS: 50 PROSE POEMS by Jim Johnson (Red Dragonfly Press) > VERTEBRAE ROSARIES: 50 SONNETS by Philip Dacey (Red Dragonfly Press) > THE FIRST LIGHT TOUCHES ME by Lyle Daggett (Red Dragonfly Press) > THE EXTENDED WORDS: AN IMAGINARY DICTIONARY by Sid Gershgoren (Red Dragonfly > Press) > AMONG FRIENDS by Mary Lou Sanelli (Aequitas Books) > LIGHT FROM A BULLET HOLE: POEMS NEW AND SELECTED, 1950-2008 by Ralph > Salisbury (Silverfish Review Press) > TEMPORARY BUNK by Lori Anderson Moseman (Swank Books) > THE MISSING by Maurizio Cucchi (Agincourt Press) > GOODBYE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE by James Sanders (BlazeVOX Books) > SOMETHING TO EXCHANGE by Celia Gilbert (BlazeVOX Books) > GEEK MAFIA: BLACK HAT BLUES by Rick Dakan (PM Press) > HANGING LOOSE 94 edited by Robert Hershon, Dick Lourie, Mark Pawlak, and Ron > Schreiber (Hanging Loose Press) > MIDNIGHT HIGHWAY: A BRIGHT RIDE INSIDE A MAGICAL ROAD SHOW by Ken Wilkerson > (Xenos Books) > TRANSPARENCIES by Robert Edwards (Red Dragonfly Press) > PETE'S GOLD by Luanne Armstrong (Ronsdale Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:11 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Monday, April 27, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > THE DANGEROUS SHIRT By Alberto R?os (Copper Canyon Press) > TERM AS IN AFTERMATH by Alan Halsey (Ahadada Books) > DEMOSTHENES' LEGACY by Jonathan Monroe (Ahadada Books) > PITCH BLACK by Youme Landowne and Anthony Horton (Cinco Puntos Press) > PRAYERS LIKE SHOES by Ruth Forman (Whit Press) > TO HELL WITH SLEEP by Anselm Berrigan (Letter Machine Editions) > ANOTHER RANDOM HEART by Sara Veglahn (Letter Machine Editions) > THE RUSSIAN VERSION: SELECTED POEMS OF ELENA FANAILOVA by Elena Fanailova > (Ugly Duckling Presse) > I-5 by Summer Brenner (PM Press/Switchblade) > THERE'S THE HAND AND THERE'S THE ARID CHAIR by Toma? alamun (Counterpath > Press) > THE KINGDOM OF POSSIBILITIES by Tim Mayo (Mayapple Press) > PERFORMING WORLDS INTO BEING: NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN'S THEATER edited by Ann > Elizabeth Armstrong, Kelli Lyon Johnson & William A. Wortman (Miami > University Press) > BEEN AND GONE by Julian Kornhauser (Marick Press) > VISIONS FROM FINIS TERRAE: CHILEAN VOICES IN THE UNITED STATES edited by > Pablo Arriar?n (Inter-American Dialogue/Marick Press) > LIGHT LIGHT OR THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH by Harriet Zinnes (Marsh Hawk > Press) > FORT DAD by Stephen Paul Miller (Marsh Hawk Press) > IN WAYS IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLD by Michael Rerick (Marsh Hawk Press) > THE COMEBACK'S EXOSKELETON by Matthew Rotando (UpSet Press) > STRANGER by Laura Sims (Fence Books) > Posted by < SPAN class=fn>The Happy Intern at 12:49 PM 0 comments Links to > this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Friday, April 17, 2009 > > < A name=6839126252643424570> > > JUST IN! > > FROM DAME QUICKLY by Jennifer Scappettone (Litmus Press) > THE RUST LIFE by Jack Crimmins (earthworm press & projects) > STRANGE TERRAIN: A POETRY HANDBOOK FOR THE RELUCTANT READER by Alice B. > Fogel (Hobblebush Books) > SUBWAY MOON by Roy Nathanson (Buddy's Knife Jazz Edition) > COMPOSITIONS FOR COMPUTER, VOLUME 1 by Joel Mellin (Kolourmeim Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:44 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Wednesday, April 15, 2009 > > FRANKLIN ROSEMONT > > SPD is saddened to learn of the passing of surrealist Franklin Rosemont. > > An obituary from the Chicago Surrealist Group is here. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 10:34 AM 0 comments Links to this post > > Tuesday, April 14, 2009 > > SPD Archive, 1990 > > Here's Steve Dickison deciding if SPD can take on this case. As can be seen > from his desk, Steve had many jobs at SPD?essentially three present-day > positions in one. This is from the San Pab lo era (1986-1995). > Posted by The Happy=2 0Intern at 3:49 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > > Monday, April 13, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > BODY OF TEXT by David Ellingsen and Michael V. Smith (BookThug) > TALKING MASKS (OEDIPUSSY) by Adam Seelig (BookThug) > FACE by Melissa Buzzeo (BookThug) > IN STEREO by Paul Hegedus (BookThug) > SELF-PORTRAIT WITH CRAYON by Allison Benis White (Cleveland State U Poetry > Center) > TRUST by Liz Waldner (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > HORSE DANCE UNDERWATER by Helena Mesa (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > CHANT by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > SIDEWALK PORTRAIT by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > POEMS IN CONVERSATION AND A CONVERSATION by Elizabeth Alexander & Lyrae Van > Clief-Stefanon (Slapering Hol Press) > THE DANCE OF THE DEMONS by Esther Singer Kreitman (The Feminist Press at > CUNY) > CITY OF WATER by Robert Thompson (Ahadada Books) > WHAT ARE INTELLECTUALS GOOD FOR? by George Scialabba (Pressed Wafer) > SIDEBROW 01 J. Snyder, J. Cleary & K. Leja, Eds. (Sidebrow) > A MILLION IN PRIZES by Justin Marks (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > HILARITY by Patty Seyburn (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:22 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Wednesday, April 8, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > Hurry Home Honey by Sawako Nakayasu (Burning20Deck) > World Ball Notebook by Sesshu Foster (City Lights) > Zero at the Bone by Stacie Cassarino (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > Dirt Angels by Donald Platt (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > Islands Linked by Ocean by Lisa Linn Kanae (Bamboo Ridge Press) > Dine-Rite: Breakfast Poems by Louis Daniel Brodsky (Time Being Books) > Columbine: A True Crime Story, a Victim, the Killers and the Nation's Search > for Answers by Jeff Kass (Ghost Road Press) > Seaweed, Salmon, and Manzanita Cider: A California Indian Feast by Margaret > Dubin and Sara-Larus Tolley (Heyday Books) > Gospel by Samiya Bashir (Redbone20Press) > Apology for the Book of Creatures by Dan Beachy-Quick (Ahsahta=2 0Press) > Trillions & Trillions of Heartbeats by Meg Hamill (Resonant Books) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:58 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Tuesday, April 7, 2009 > > SPD Archive, 1986 > > A sunny afternoon outside celebrating SPD's move to San Pablo Avenue. From > left to right: Eileen Corder, Columbine Robinson, Nick Robinson, Lyn > Hejinian snapshotting the photographer, Simone Fattal, and a suit. In the > background is a barsign for The Bird, now known as The Albatross. > > And here's Kit Robinson on the same occasion dashingly cutting the ribbon > with gardening shears. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:27 PM 1 comments Links to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > > SPD Archive, 1979 > > Season's Greetings from 1979! From left to right: David Bullen, Chuck > Miller, Jeannetta Jones Miller, Jean Day with Casey Miller, and Nick > Robinson. This photo was probably taken outside SPD's storefront on > Shattuck, next to Serendipity Books. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:48 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > > BLOW-OUT VIDEOS! > > From our Open House last weekend, shot by Oscar Bermeo: > > Posted by CLAY BANES at 2:59 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: EVENTS, POEMS, VISITORS > > SPD Archive, 1978 > > The stunning cover of SPD's 1978 catalog. A mysterious neo-constructivist > trend runs sporadically through SPD design history. This may be the only > extant copy of this catalog, from way back when SPD was SBD: Serendipity > Books Distribution. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 2:30 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > > Monday, April 6, 2009 > > PHOTOS BY OSCAR BERMEO > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:20 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: EVENTS, VISITORS > > Friday, April 3, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > YOUNG REVOLUTIONARIES WHO ROCK by Dallas Jessup (Sutton Hart Press) > THE HARDSHIP POST by Jehanne Dubrow (Three Candles Press) > EXQUISITE CORPSE ANNUAL, NO. 1, 2009 edited by Andrei Codrescu and Mark > Spitzer (Exquisite Corpse Annual/Chum Books) > GETTING LOST IN A CITY LIKE THIS by Jack Anderson (Hanging Loose Press) > THE KANSHI POEMS OF TAIGU RY?KAN by Taigu Ry?kan (Bottom Dog Press) > FIRST BABY POEMS by Anne Waldman (BlazeVOX Books) > IT MIGHT DO WELL WITH STRAWBERRIES by David Matlin (Marick Press) > VARIATIONS ON A NATURAL THEME: A LOON YEAR by Hugh Hennedy (Hobblebush > Books) > IN THE ARENA: LIFE AND TIMES OF WILLIAM W. TREAT by Merle Drown (Hobblebush > Books) > IN SEARCH OF SMALL GODS by Jim Harrison (Copper Canyon Press) > FUMBLING IN THE LIGHT by Sidney Hall Jr. (Hobblebush Books) > VOLT: ART ON ART SPRING 2009 edited by Gillian Conoley (Volt) > LEMON PEELED THE MOMENT BEFORE: NEW & SELECTED POEMS, 1967-2008 by Roger > Mitchell (Ausable Press) > THE MONSTER LOVES HIS LABYRINTH by Charles Simic (Ausable Press) > AMORISCO by Zhaled Mattawa (Au sable Press) > THE SKELETON OF THE CROW: NEW AND SELECT ED POEMS, 1980-2008 by Seido Ray > Ronci (Ausable Press) > MADE FLESH by Craig Arnold (Ausable Press) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:07 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! > CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? > ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! > Cheap Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks & a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD > Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:40 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: EVENTS > > JUST IN: JENNIFER MOXLEY'S CLAMPDOWN > > Jennifer Moxley's Clampdown captures a20time of political despair and > self-doubt. Our "so-called common ground" erodes where liberal thought, > implicated in the systems it critiques, finds no traction and becomes the > site of new divisions. Against the reality of distant wars, everyday > pleasures?even love itself?become frayed by anxiety and shame. Likewise, the > past and the future prove unstable, both close to oblivion in a "maddeningly > quiescent landscape" of winter. Throughout Clampdown, Moxley responds to the > evanescence of both life and art with all her poetic resources, at times > declamatory and incisive, at others "freely espousing" and conversational. > Posted by CLAY BANES at 6:00 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 > > Handsome Young Men > > Really? > > ? SPD IN THE SF EXAMINER > Posted by CLAY BANES at 12:42 PM 0 comments Links to this post > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 > > SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! > CLARK COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? > ALEX ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > 0A > Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! > Cheap Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks, and a Poetry Trading Post?It's the > SPD Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:05 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: EVENTS > > Friday, March 27, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > Plummet by Chris Nealon (Edge Books) > Theogony by Douglas Rothschild (Subpress) > Spell Albuqueque: Memoir of a "Difficult" Student by Tennessee Reed (AK > Press) > Map of the Hydrogen World by Steve Halle (Cracked Slab Books) > Lightwall by Liliana Ursu (Zephyr Press) Extreme Positions by Stephen Bett > (Spuyten Duyvil) > Portland Noir edited by Kevin Sampsell (Akashic Books) > Seattle Noir edited by Curt Colbert (Akashic Books) > The Jook by Gary Phillips (PM Press/Switchblade) > Legible Heavens by H.L. Hix (Etruscan Press) > Saint Joe's Passion by Jeremy Schraffenberger (Etruscan Press) > A Poetics of Hiroshima by William Heyen (Etruscan Press) > Songs of the Dead by Derrick Jensen (PM Press/Flashpoint) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:07 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Wednesday, March 25, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > SONGS FOR TOMORROW: A COLLECTION OF POEMS 1960-2002 by Ko Un (Green Integer) > POEMLAND by Chelsey Minnis (Wave Books) > SUNNY WEDNESDAY by Noelle Kocot (Wave Books) > UNION! by Ish Klein (Canarium Books) > THE TANGLED LINE by Tod Marshall (Canarium Books) > TAKE IT by Joshua Beckman (Wave Books) > NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > LIGHT THICKENS by Elizabeth Biller Chapman (Ashland Poetry Press) > INSEMINATING THE ELEPHANT by Lucia Perillo (Copper Canyon Press) > THE CURVATURE OF BLUE by Lucille Lang Day (?erven? Barva Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:54 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Monday, March 23, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > Notes on Conceptualisms by Vanessa Place & Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling > Presse) > Classification of a Spit Stain by Ellie Ga (Ugly Duckling Presse) > Sometimes My Heart Pushes My Ribs by Ellen Kennedy (Muumuu House) > Zero Summer by Andrew Demcak (BlazeVOX [books]) > Nexus of Evil: Late Fragments, 1-7 by Andr? Spears (First Intensity Press) > Delusions of Normality by J.P. Harpignies (Cool Grove Press) > Journals from the Time of the Radar Dog by Pat Lawrence (BlazeVOX [books]) > Submissions by Jared Schickling (BlazeVOX [books]) > Parataxis by Matt Hill (BlazeVOX [books]) > DIS by Davis Schneiderman (BlazeVOX [books]) > The Desense of Nonfense by Megan A. Volpert (BlazeVOX [books]) > Astrometry Orgonon by Mark Lamoureux (BlazeVOX [books]) > Bystander: An Irreality by mIEKAL aND (BlazeVOX [books]) > String Parade by Jordan Stempleman (BlazeVOX [books]) > For To by Skip Fox (BlazeVOX [books]) > Theaters of the Tongue by Diana=2 0Adams (BlazeVOX [books]) > Torched Verse Ends by Steven D. Schroeder (BlazeVOX [books]) > Dead Letters by Alan May (BlazeVOX [books]) > I Went Looking for You by Ruth Lepson (BlazeVOX [books]) > Th?i B?nh: Great Peace by Kevin Bowen (Pressed Wafer) > Alice Fantastic by Maggie Estep (Akashic Books) > Of Mule and Man by Mike Farrell (Akashic Books) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 11:43 AM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Friday, March 20, 2009 > > Small Press Distribution's New Lit Generation at=2 0City Lights 3/18 > > Pictures and video courtesy of the better-than-able Oscar Bermeo > (whose own report of the night you can read here) > ? See Oscar's full photo set here. > ? Watch Oscar's video playlist here. > Posted by CLAY BANES at 1:55 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: EVENTS > > Wednesday, March 18, 2009 > > JUST IN! > > After-Dinner Declarations by Nicanor Parra (Host Publications) > Face by Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > German for Travelers: A Novel in 95 Lessons by Norah Labiner (Coffee House > Press) > Light, Moving by Carolyn Miller (Sixteen Rivers Press) > The Spoils by Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press) > Coal Mountain Elementary by Mark Nowak (Coffee House Press) > Arena: On Anarchist Cinema edited by Richard Porton (PM PRess) > Again by Lynne Knight (Sixteen Rivers Press) > I Go To Some Hollow by Amina Cain (Les Figues Press) > The Red Army Faction, A Documentary History: Volume 1: Projectiles for the > People by J. Smith and Andr? Moncourt (PM Press ) > The 5th Inning by Ethelbert Miller (PM Press/Busboys and Poets) > Portrait and Dream: New and Selected Poems by Bill Berkson (Coffee House > Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:27 PM 0 comments Links to this post > Labels: NEW BOOKS > > Thursday, March 12, 2009 > > suddenly spd is on facebook > > Posted by CLAY BANES at 5:45 PM 0 comments Links to this post > > JUST IN! > > BIG AMERICAN TRIP by Christian Peet (Shearman Books) > BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY by D.A. Powe ll & David Trinidad (Turtle Point > Press) > TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY by Michael Heller (ahadada books)< > ... > > [Message clipped] > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Wed May 6 22:19:42 2009 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A02453E.7070802@medicine.nodak.edu> James Cervantes wrote: > Well, I like the name better than "Google." Wolfram Alpha is just > geekie and techie enough. Wolfram Beta would have been a bust. > > - Jim > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini > > wrote: > > The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in > the US last week, takes the first step towards what many consider > to be the internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information > that understands and responds to ordinary language in the same way > a person does. > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html > Why not Tungsten Alpha? Just as macho and easier to pronounce: "Tungsten is one of those elements with a symbol that doesn't seem to correlate to its name, or at least its English name. The symbol 'W' comes from the name wolfram, which you will find on German and certain other periodic tables. A man named Peter Woulfe determined that tungsten was a new substance, but the element's name doesn't derive from his name. Rather, it comes from the Swedish wolf rahm, which refers to the way the ore wolframite (Fe, Mn)WO4 intereferes with tin smelting, appearing to devour the metal." [from "Anne Marie's Chemistry Blog," 2001] Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac@medicine.nodak.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/502373ff/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Wed May 6 22:41:12 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The New Life"/SPD Poetry Bestsellers March/April2009 In-Reply-To: <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> References: <224054.3127.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8CB9CC47066A193-628-1768@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Liked all the white space in that. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:02 PM, wrote: > In the strange life of books, my micro press (or intermittent press) has > book on the SPD best seller list. > Go figures! > Finnegan > > Monday, May 4, 2009 SPD Poetry Best-sellers March/April 09 > > 1. FACE by > Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > 2. BREAKING POEMSby Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > 3. ZAATARDIVAby Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > 4. THE POETS GUIDE TO20THE BIRDSby J. Kitchen and T. Kooser, Eds. (Anhinga Press) > 5. THE SUMMER OF BLACK WIDOWSby Sher man Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > 6. LOBSTER WITH OL' DIRTY BASTARDby Michael Cirelli (Hanging Loose Press) > 7. LISA ROBERTSON'S MAGENTA SOUL WHIPby Lisa Robertson (Coach House Books) > 8. THE BATTLEFIELD WHERE THE MOON SAYS I LOVE YOUby Frank Stanford (Lost Roads Publishers) > 9. FALLING ANGELS: CUENTOS Y POEMASby Olga Garcia Echeverria (Calaca Press/Chibcha Press) > 10. NATURAL LIGHTby Norma Cole (Libellum) > 11. UNDER FLAG [THIRD PRINTING]by Myung Mi Kim (Kelsey Street Press) > 12. NEW DEPTHS OF DEADPANby Michael Gizzi (Burning Deck) > 13. DISASTER SUITESby Rob Halpern (Palm Press) > 14. IF THE DELTA WAS THE SEAby Dick Lourie (Hanging Loose Press) > 15. NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMSby Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > 16. COMPLETE MINIMAL POEMSby Aram Saroyan (Ugly Duckling Presse) > 17. SOME NOTES ON MY PROGRAMMINGby Anselm Berrigan (Edge Books) > 18. AVERSIONSby Alfredo De Palchi (Xenos Books) > 19. BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHYby D.A. Powell and David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) > 20. EUNOIAby Christian B?k (Coach House Books) > 21. OLD SHIRTS & NEW SKINSby Sherman Alexie (American Indian Studies Center, UCLA) > 22. PUBLIC DOMAINby M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) > 23. THE ALL-PURPOSE MAGICAL TENTby Lytton Sm ith (Nightboat Books) > 24. CLAMPDOWNby Jennifer Moxley (Flood Editions) > 25. PLUMMETby Christopher Nealon (Edge Books) > 26. THE NEW LIFEby Wally Swist (Plinth Books) > 27. THE SECRET OF WHITEby Barbara Tomash (Spuyten Duyvil) > 28. YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AMby Tao Lin (Action Books) > 29. SCAPE by Joshua Harmon (Black Ocean) > 30. PORTRAIT AND DREAM: NEW AND SELECTED POEMSby Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) > > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:21 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Wednesday, April 29, 2009 > > Best Poem-In-Which-Every-Word-Is-Spelled-Wrong B ee > > Write a really good poem in which every word is really badly spelled! > > Win a $100 SPD Gift Certificate! > > Now everyone can get in on the action that will take place May 18th at the > Crown Point Gallery in San Francisco when we have our Bee-In, a Spelling > Bee to Benefit SPD . > > We realize that conceptual poets might have the edge in this competition, > but feel that SPD readers and writers will be equal to the challenge. > > Two things that are true on the internet is that no one knows you are a dog > and, with very little effort, everyone can spell. Hence the challenge to > misspell, but with ?lan! > > Here?s the deal: > > 1. Poem can be of any length but, you know, give us a break here, man. > 2. All words in the poem must be misspelled but must also be legible in > some way or other. > 3. SPD staff will judge the entries. > 4. Email your poem to contest@spdbooks.org by May 18th, the day of the Bee-In, > a Spelling Bee to Benefit SPD > . > > Posted by Laura Moriarty at 3:31 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: Contests > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 JUST IN! > *LOGOS AND LANGUAGE: A POST-JAZZ METAPHORICAL DIALOGUE > * by Steve Dalachinsky (RogueArt) > *DRIVING GRAVEL ROADS: 50 PROSE POEMS > * by Jim Johnson (Red Dragonfly Press) > *VERTEBRAE ROSARIES: 50 SONNETS > * by Philip Dacey (Red Dragonfly Press) > *THE FIRST LIGHT TOUCHES ME > * by Lyle Daggett (Red Dragonfly Press) > *THE EXTENDED WORDS: AN IMAGINARY DICTIONARY > * by Sid Gershgoren (Red Dragonfly Press) > *AMONG FRIENDS > * by Mary Lou Sanelli (Aequitas Books) > *LIGHT FROM A BULLET HOLE: POEMS NEW AND SELECTED, 1950-2008 > * by Ralph Salisbury (Silverfish Review Press) > *TEMPORARY BUNK > * by Lori Anderson Moseman (Swank Books) > *THE MISSING > * by Maurizio Cucchi (Agincourt Press) > *GOODBYE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE > * by James Sanders (BlazeVOX Books) > *SOMETHING TO EXCHANGE > * by Celia Gilbert (BlazeVOX Books) > *GEEK MAFIA: BLACK HAT BLUES > * by Rick Dakan (PM Press) > *HANGING LOOSE 94 > * edited by Robert Hershon, Dick Lourie, Mark Pawlak, and Ron Schreiber > (Hanging Loose Press) > *MIDNIGHT HIGHWAY: A BRIGHT RIDE INSIDE A MAGICAL ROAD SHOW > * by Ken Wilkerson (Xenos Books) > *TRANSPARENCIES > * by Robert Edwards (Red Dragonfly Press) > *PETE'S GOLD > * by Luanne Armstrong (Ronsdale Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:11 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Monday, April 27, 2009 JUST IN! > *THE DANGEROUS SHIRT > * By Alberto R?os (Copper Canyon Press) > *TERM AS IN AFTERMATH > * by Alan Halsey (Ahadada Books) > *DEMOSTHENES' LEGACY > * by Jonathan Monroe (Ahadada Books) > *PITCH BLACK > * by Youme Landowne and Anthony Horton (Cinco Puntos Press) > *PRAYERS LIKE SHOES > * by Ruth Forman (Whit Press) > *TO HELL WITH SLEEP > * by Anselm Berrigan (Letter Machine Editions) > *ANOTHER RANDOM HEART > * by Sara Veglahn (Letter Machine Editions) > *THE RUSSIAN VERSION: SELECTED POEMS OF ELENA FANAILOVA > * by Elena Fanailova (Ugly Duckling Presse) > *I-5 * by Summer > Brenner (PM Press/Switchblade) > *THERE'S THE HAND AND THERE'S THE ARID CHAIR > * by Toma? alamun (Counterpath Press) > *THE KINGDOM OF POSSIBILITIES > * by Tim Mayo (Mayapple Press) > *PERFORMING WORLDS INTO BEING: NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN'S THEATER > * edited by Ann Elizabeth Armstrong, Kelli Lyon Johnson & William A. > Wortman (Miami University Press) > *BEEN AND GONE > * by Julian Kornhauser (Marick Press) > *VISIONS FROM FINIS TERRAE: CHILEAN VOICES IN THE UNITED STATES > * edited by Pablo Arriar?n (Inter-American Dialogue/Marick Press) > *LIGHT LIGHT OR THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH > * by Harriet Zinnes (Marsh Hawk Press) > *FORT DAD *by Stephen Paul Miller (Marsh Hawk Press) > *IN WAYS IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLD > * by Michael Rerick (Marsh Hawk Press) > *THE COMEBACK'S EXOSKELETON > * by Matthew Rotando (UpSet Press) > *STRANGER *by Laura Sims (Fence Books) > Posted by < SPAN class=fn>The Happy Intern at 12:49 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Friday, April 17, 2009 < A name=6839126252643424570> JUST IN! > *FROM DAME QUICKLY > * by Jennifer Scappettone (Litmus Press) > *THE RUST LIFE > * by Jack Crimmins (earthworm press & projects) > *STRANGE TERRAIN: A POETRY HANDBOOK FOR THE RELUCTANT READER > * by Alice B. Fogel (Hobblebush Books) > *SUBWAY MOON > * by Roy Nathanson (Buddy's Knife Jazz Edition) > *COMPOSITIONS FOR COMPUTER, VOLUME 1 > * by Joel Mellin (Kolourmeim Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:44 PM 0 > comments Links to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, April 15, 2009 FRANKLIN ROSEMONT SPD > is saddened to learn of the passing of surrealist Franklin Rosemont > . > > An obituary from the Chicago Surrealist Group is here > . > Posted by The Happy Intern at 10:34 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Tuesday, April 14, 2009 SPD Archive, 1990 Here's > Steve Dickison deciding if SPD can take on this case. As can be seen from > his desk, Steve had many jobs at SPD?essentially three present-day positions > in one. This is from the San Pab lo era (1986-1995). > Posted by The Happy=2 0Intern at 3:49 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > Monday, April 13, 2009 JUST IN! > *BODY OF TEXT > * by David Ellingsen and Michael V. Smith (BookThug) > *TALKING MASKS (OEDIPUSSY) > * by Adam Seelig (BookThug) > *FACE * by > Melissa Buzzeo (BookThug) > *IN STEREO > * by Paul Hegedus (BookThug) > *SELF-PORTRAIT WITH CRAYON > * by Allison Benis White (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *TRUST * by Liz > Waldner (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *HORSE DANCE UNDERWATER > * by Helena Mesa (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *CHANT * by > Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > *SIDEWALK PORTRAIT > * by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > *POEMS IN CONVERSATION AND A CONVERSATION > * by Elizabeth Alexander & Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon (Slapering Hol Press) > *THE DANCE OF THE DEMONS > * by Esther Singer Kreitman (The Feminist Press at CUNY) > *CITY OF WATER > * by Robert Thompson (Ahadada Books) > *WHAT ARE INTELLECTUALS GOOD FOR? > * by George Scialabba (Pressed Wafer) > *SIDEBROW 01 > * J. Snyder, J. Cleary & K. Leja, Eds. (Sidebrow) > *A MILLION IN PRIZES > * by Justin Marks (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *HILARITY *by Patty Seyburn (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:22 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, April 8, 2009 JUST IN! > *Hurry Home Honey > * by Sawako Nakayasu (Burning20Deck) > *World Ball Notebook > * by Sesshu Foster (City Lights) > *Zero at the Bone > * by Stacie Cassarino (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *Dirt Angels > * by Donald Platt (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *Islands Linked by Ocean > * by Lisa Linn Kanae (Bamboo Ridge Press) > *Dine-Rite: Breakfast Poems > * by Louis Daniel Brodsky (Time Being Books) > *Columbine: A True Crime Story, a Victim, the Killers and the Nation's > Search for Answers > * by Jeff Kass (Ghost Road Press) > *Seaweed, Salmon, and Manzanita Cider: A California Indian Feast > * by Margaret Dubin and Sara-Larus Tolley (Heyday Books) > *Gospel > * by Samiya Bashir (Redbone20Press) > *Apology for the Book of Creatures > * by Dan Beachy-Quick (Ahsahta=2 0Press) > *Trillions & Trillions of Heartbeats > * by Meg Hamill (Resonant Books) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:58 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Tuesday, April 7, 2009 SPD Archive, 1986 > A > sunny afternoon outside celebrating SPD's move to San Pablo Avenue. From > left to right: Eileen Corder, Columbine Robinson, Nick Robinson, Lyn > Hejinian snapshotting the photographer, Simone Fattal, and a suit. In the > background is a barsign for The Bird, now known as The Albatross. > > And > here's Kit Robinson on the same occasion dashingly cutting the ribbon with > gardening shears. > ** > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:27 PM 1 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > SPD Archive, 1979 > Season's > Greetings from 1979! From left to right: David Bullen, Chuck Miller, > Jeannetta Jones Miller, Jean Day with Casey Miller, and Nick Robinson. This > photo was probably taken outside SPD's storefront on Shattuck, next to > Serendipity Books. > ** > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:48 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > BLOW-OUT VIDEOS! From > our Open House last weekend, shot by Oscar Bermeo > : > > [image: Clark Coolidge reads for Small Press Distribution's 40th] [image: > Clark Coolidge reads for Small Press Distribution's 40th] [image: > Norma Cole] [image: > Graham Foust] [image: > Tennessee Reed] [image: > Erica Lewis] [image: > Andrea Lopez] [image: > Alex Espinoza] > Posted by CLAY BANES at 2:59 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS , POEMS, > VISITORS > SPD Archive, 1978 > > The stunning cover of SPD's 1978 catalog. A mysterious neo-constructivist > trend runs sporadically through SPD design history. This may be the only > extant copy of this catalog, from way back when SPD was SBD: Serendipity > Books Distribution. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 2:30 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > Monday, April 6, 2009 [image: SPD Open House 40th Anniversary Poetry > Blow-Out Photos by Oscar Bermeo] > [image: SPD Open House 40th Anniversary Poetry Blow-Out Photos by Oscar > Bermeo] > PHOTOS BY OSCAR BERMEO > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:20 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS , > VISITORS > Friday, April 3, 2009 JUST IN! > *YOUNG REVOLUTIONARIES WHO ROCK*by Dallas Jessup (Sutton Hart Press) > *THE HARDSHIP POST*by Jehanne Dubrow (Three Candles Press) > *EXQUISITE CORPSE ANNUAL, NO. 1, 2009*edited by Andrei Codrescu and Mark Spitzer (Exquisite Corpse Annual/Chum > Books) > *GETTING LOST IN A CITY LIKE THIS*by Jack Anderson (Hanging Loose Press) > *THE KANSHI POEMS OF TAIGU RY?KAN*by Taigu Ry?kan (Bottom Dog Press) > *FIRST BABY POEMS*by Anne Waldman (BlazeVOX Books) > *IT MIGHT DO WELL WITH STRAWBERRIES *by David Matlin (Marick Press) > *VARIATIONS ON A NATURAL THEME: A LOON YEAR*by Hugh Hennedy (Hobblebush Books) > *IN THE ARENA: LIFE AND TIMES OF WILLIAM W. TREAT*by Merle Drown (Hobblebush Books) > *IN SEARCH OF SMALL GODS*by Jim Harrison (Copper Canyon Press) > *FUMBLING IN THE LIGHT*by Sidney Hall Jr. (Hobblebush Books) > *VOLT: ART ON ART SPRING 2009*edited by Gillian Conoley (Volt) > *LEMON PEELED THE MOMENT BEFORE: NEW & SELECTED POEMS, 1967-2008*by Roger Mitchell (Ausable Press) > *THE MONSTER LOVES HIS LABYRINTH*by Charles Simic (Ausable Press) > *AMORISCO* by Zhaled Mattawa (Au sable Press) > *THE SKELETON OF THE CROW: NEW AND SELECT ED POEMS, 1980-2008*by Seido Ray Ronci (Ausable Press) > *MADE FLESH*by Craig Arnold (Ausable Press) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:07 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK > COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX > ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap > Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks & a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD > Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:40 AM 0 > comments Links to this post > > Labels: EVENTS > JUST IN: JENNIFER MOXLEY'S *CLAMPDOWN* [image: > CLAMPDO WN JENNIFER MOXLEY FLOOD EDITIONS]Jennifer > Moxley's *Clampdown*captures a20time of political despair and self-doubt. Our "so-called common > ground" erodes where liberal thought, implicated in the systems it > critiques, finds no traction and becomes the site of new divisions. Against > the reality of distant wars, everyday pleasures?even love itself?become > frayed by anxiety and shame. Likewise, the past and the future prove > unstable, both close to oblivion in a "maddeningly quiescent landscape" of > winter. Throughout *Clampdown*, Moxley responds to the evanescence of both > life and art with all her poetic resources, at times declamatory and > incisive, at others "freely espousing" and conversational. > Posted by CLAY BANES at 6:00 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Thursday, April 2, 2009 Handsome Young Men > Really? > > ? SPD IN THE SF EXAMINER > Posted by CLAY BANES at 12:42 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK > COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX > ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > 0A Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap > Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks, and a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD > Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:05 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > Labels: EVENTS > Friday, March 27, 2009 JUST IN! > *Plummet * by > Chris Nealon (Edge Books) > *Theogony *by Douglas Rothschild (Subpress) > *Spell Albuqueque: Memoir of a "Difficult" Student > * by Tennessee Reed (AK Press) > *Map of the Hydrogen World > * by Steve Halle (Cracked Slab Books) > *Lightwall > * by Liliana Ursu (Zephyr Press)* Extreme Positionsby Stephen Bett (Spuyten Duyvil) > Portland Noiredited by Kevin Sampsell (Akashic Books) > Seattle Noiredited by Curt Colbert (Akashic Books) > The Jook by > Gary Phillips (PM Press/Switchblade) > Legible Heavensby H.L. Hix (Etruscan Press) > Saint Joe's Passionby Jeremy Schraffenberger (Etruscan Press) > A Poetics of Hiroshimaby William Heyen (Etruscan Press) > Songs of the Deadby Derrick Jensen (PM Press/Flashpoint) > * > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:07 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, March 25, 2009 JUST IN! > *SONGS FOR TOMORROW: A COLLECTION OF POEMS 1960-2002 > * by Ko Un (Green Integer) > *POEMLAND *by Chelsey Minnis (Wave Books) > * > SUNNY WEDNESDAY > * by Noelle Kocot (Wave Books) > *UNION! * by > Ish Klein (Canarium Books) > *THE TANGLED LINE > * by Tod Marshall (Canarium Books) > *TAKE IT * by > Joshua Beckman (Wave Books) > *NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS > * by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > *LIGHT THICKENS > * by Elizabeth Biller Chapman (Ashland Poetry Press) > *INSEMINATING THE ELEPHANT > * by Lucia Perillo (Copper Canyon Press) > *THE CURVATURE OF BLUE > * by Lucille Lang Day (?erven? Barva Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:54 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Monday, March 23, 2009 JUST IN! Notes > on Conceptualismsby Vanessa Place & Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse) > Classification of a Spit Stainby Ellie Ga (Ugly Duckling Presse) > Sometimes My Heart Pushes My Ribsby Ellen Kennedy (Muumuu House) > Zero Summerby Andrew Demcak (BlazeVOX [books]) > Nexus of Evil: Late Fragments, 1-7by Andr? Spears (First Intensity Press) > Delusions of Normalityby J.P. Harpignies (Cool Grove Press) > Journals from the Time of the Radar Dogby Pat Lawrence (BlazeVOX [books]) > Submissionsby Jared Schickling (BlazeVOX [books]) > Parataxis by Matt Hill (BlazeVOX [books]) > DISby Davis Schneiderman (BlazeVOX [books]) > The Desense of Nonfenseby Megan A. Volpert (BlazeVOX [books]) > Astrometry Orgononby Mark Lamoureux (BlazeVOX [books]) > Bystander: An Irrealityby mIEKAL aND (BlazeVOX [books]) > String Paradeby Jordan Stempleman (BlazeVOX [books]) > For To by Skip Fox (BlazeVOX [books]) > Theaters of the Tongueby Diana=2 0Adams (BlazeVOX [books]) > Torched Verse Endsby Steven D. Schroeder (BlazeVOX [books]) > Dead Lettersby Alan May (BlazeVOX [books]) > I Went Looking for Youby Ruth Lepson (BlazeVOX [books]) > Th?i B?nh: Great Peaceby Kevin Bowen (Pressed Wafer) > Alice Fantasticby Maggie Estep (Akashic Books) > Of Mule and Manby Mike Farrell (Akashic Books) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 11:43 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Friday, March 20, 2009 Small Press Distribution's New Lit Generation > at=2 0City Lights 3/18 Pictures > and video courtesy of the better-than-able Oscar Bermeo > (whose own report of the night you can read here > ) [image: LAURA MORIARTY AND BRENT CUNNINGHAM SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION'S > NEW LIT GENERATION AT CITY LIGHTS BOOKSTORE] ? > See Oscar's full photo set here > . ? Watch Oscar's video playlist here > . > Posted by CLAY BANES at 1:55 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS > Wednesday, March 18, 2009 JUST IN! > *After-Dinner Declarations > * by Nicanor Parra (Host Publications) > *Face * by > Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > *German for Travelers: A Novel in 95 Lessons > * by Norah Labiner (Coffee House Press) > *Light, Moving > * by Carolyn Miller (Sixteen Rivers Press) > *The Spoils > * by Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press) > *Coal Mountain Elementary > * by Mark Nowak (Coffee House Press) > *Arena: On Anarchist Cinema > * edited by Richard Porton (PM PRess) > *Again * by > Lynne Knight (Sixteen Rivers Press) > *I Go To Some Hollow > * by Amina Cain (Les Figues Press) > *The Red Army Faction, A Documentary History: Volume 1: Projectiles for > the People > * by J. Smith and Andr? Moncourt (PM Press ) > *The 5th Inning > * by Ethelbert Miller (PM Press/Busboys and Poets) > *Portrait and Dream: New and Selected Poems > * by Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:27 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Thursday, March 12, 2009 suddenly spd is on facebook [image: > SPD FACEBOOK] > Posted by CLAY BANES at 5:45 PM 0 > comments Links to this post > > JUST IN! *BIG > AMERICAN TRIP > * by Christian Peet (Shearman Books) > *BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY > * by D.A. Powe ll & David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) > *TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY > * by Michael Heller (ahadada books)< > ... > > [Message clipped] > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/d250dad6/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 22:59:34 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The New Life"/SPD Poetry Bestsellers March/April2009 In-Reply-To: <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> References: <224054.3127.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8CB9CC47066A193-628-1768@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> <8CB9CC68FA92759-EB8-24B7@webmail-mh09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905061959m1b56e7dakf2f66bebde42825@mail.gmail.com> James, I love the piccies and lists [esp #28 title on first list, You Are A LIttle Bit Happier Than I Am], but didnae find your micro press's book on the SPD bestseller list. Help me out, please! BTW, whusupwidat long stretchy ISBN-looking thingie? Best, Judy 2009/5/6 > In the strange life of books, my micro press (or intermittent press) has > book on the SPD best seller list. > Go figures! > Finnegan > > Monday, May 4, 2009 SPD Poetry Best-sellers March/April 09 > > 1. FACE by > Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > 2. BREAKING POEMSby Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > 3. ZAATARDIVAby Suheir Hammad (Cypher Books) > 4. THE POETS GUIDE TO20THE BIRDSby J. Kitchen and T. Kooser, Eds. (Anhinga Press) > 5. THE SUMMER OF BLACK WIDOWSby Sher man Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > 6. LOBSTER WITH OL' DIRTY BASTARDby Michael Cirelli (Hanging Loose Press) > 7. LISA ROBERTSON'S MAGENTA SOUL WHIPby Lisa Robertson (Coach House Books) > 8. THE BATTLEFIELD WHERE THE MOON SAYS I LOVE YOUby Frank Stanford (Lost Roads Publishers) > 9. FALLING ANGELS: CUENTOS Y POEMASby Olga Garcia Echeverria (Calaca Press/Chibcha Press) > 10. NATURAL LIGHTby Norma Cole (Libellum) > 11. UNDER FLAG [THIRD PRINTING]by Myung Mi Kim (Kelsey Street Press) > 12. NEW DEPTHS OF DEADPANby Michael Gizzi (Burning Deck) > 13. DISASTER SUITESby Rob Halpern (Palm Press) > 14. IF THE DELTA WAS THE SEAby Dick Lourie (Hanging Loose Press) > 15. NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMSby Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > 16. COMPLETE MINIMAL POEMSby Aram Saroyan (Ugly Duckling Presse) > 17. SOME NOTES ON MY PROGRAMMINGby Anselm Berrigan (Edge Books) > 18. AVERSIONSby Alfredo De Palchi (Xenos Books) > 19. BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHYby D.A. Powell and David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) > 20. EUNOIAby Christian B?k (Coach House Books) > 21. OLD SHIRTS & NEW SKINSby Sherman Alexie (American Indian Studies Center, UCLA) > 22. PUBLIC DOMAINby M?nica de la Torre (Roof Books) > 23. THE ALL-PURPOSE MAGICAL TENTby Lytton Sm ith (Nightboat Books) > 24. CLAMPDOWNby Jennifer Moxley (Flood Editions) > 25. PLUMMETby Christopher Nealon (Edge Books) > 26. THE NEW LIFEby Wally Swist (Plinth Books) > 27. THE SECRET OF WHITEby Barbara Tomash (Spuyten Duyvil) > 28. YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AMby Tao Lin (Action Books) > 29. SCAPE by Joshua Harmon (Black Ocean) > 30. PORTRAIT AND DREAM: NEW AND SELECTED POEMSby Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) > > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:21 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Wednesday, April 29, 2009 > > Best Poem-In-Which-Every-Word-Is-Spelled-Wrong B ee > > Write a really good poem in which every word is really badly spelled! > > Win a $100 SPD Gift Certificate! > > Now everyone can get in on the action that will take place May 18th at the > Crown Point Gallery in San Francisco when we have our Bee-In, a Spelling > Bee to Benefit SPD . > > We realize that conceptual poets might have the edge in this competition, > but feel that SPD readers and writers will be equal to the challenge. > > Two things that are true on the internet is that no one knows you are a dog > and, with very little effort, everyone can spell. Hence the challenge to > misspell, but with ?lan! > > Here?s the deal: > > 1. Poem can be of any length but, you know, give us a break here, man. > 2. All words in the poem must be misspelled but must also be legible in > some way or other. > 3. SPD staff will judge the entries. > 4. Email your poem to contest@spdbooks.org by May 18th, the day of the Bee-In, > a Spelling Bee to Benefit SPD > . > > Posted by Laura Moriarty at 3:31 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: Contests > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 JUST IN! > *LOGOS AND LANGUAGE: A POST-JAZZ METAPHORICAL DIALOGUE > * by Steve Dalachinsky (RogueArt) > *DRIVING GRAVEL ROADS: 50 PROSE POEMS > * by Jim Johnson (Red Dragonfly Press) > *VERTEBRAE ROSARIES: 50 SONNETS > * by Philip Dacey (Red Dragonfly Press) > *THE FIRST LIGHT TOUCHES ME > * by Lyle Daggett (Red Dragonfly Press) > *THE EXTENDED WORDS: AN IMAGINARY DICTIONARY > * by Sid Gershgoren (Red Dragonfly Press) > *AMONG FRIENDS > * by Mary Lou Sanelli (Aequitas Books) > *LIGHT FROM A BULLET HOLE: POEMS NEW AND SELECTED, 1950-2008 > * by Ralph Salisbury (Silverfish Review Press) > *TEMPORARY BUNK > * by Lori Anderson Moseman (Swank Books) > *THE MISSING > * by Maurizio Cucchi (Agincourt Press) > *GOODBYE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE > * by James Sanders (BlazeVOX Books) > *SOMETHING TO EXCHANGE > * by Celia Gilbert (BlazeVOX Books) > *GEEK MAFIA: BLACK HAT BLUES > * by Rick Dakan (PM Press) > *HANGING LOOSE 94 > * edited by Robert Hershon, Dick Lourie, Mark Pawlak, and Ron Schreiber > (Hanging Loose Press) > *MIDNIGHT HIGHWAY: A BRIGHT RIDE INSIDE A MAGICAL ROAD SHOW > * by Ken Wilkerson (Xenos Books) > *TRANSPARENCIES > * by Robert Edwards (Red Dragonfly Press) > *PETE'S GOLD > * by Luanne Armstrong (Ronsdale Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:11 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Monday, April 27, 2009 JUST IN! > *THE DANGEROUS SHIRT > * By Alberto R?os (Copper Canyon Press) > *TERM AS IN AFTERMATH > * by Alan Halsey (Ahadada Books) > *DEMOSTHENES' LEGACY > * by Jonathan Monroe (Ahadada Books) > *PITCH BLACK > * by Youme Landowne and Anthony Horton (Cinco Puntos Press) > *PRAYERS LIKE SHOES > * by Ruth Forman (Whit Press) > *TO HELL WITH SLEEP > * by Anselm Berrigan (Letter Machine Editions) > *ANOTHER RANDOM HEART > * by Sara Veglahn (Letter Machine Editions) > *THE RUSSIAN VERSION: SELECTED POEMS OF ELENA FANAILOVA > * by Elena Fanailova (Ugly Duckling Presse) > *I-5 * by Summer > Brenner (PM Press/Switchblade) > *THERE'S THE HAND AND THERE'S THE ARID CHAIR > * by Toma? alamun (Counterpath Press) > *THE KINGDOM OF POSSIBILITIES > * by Tim Mayo (Mayapple Press) > *PERFORMING WORLDS INTO BEING: NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN'S THEATER > * edited by Ann Elizabeth Armstrong, Kelli Lyon Johnson & William A. > Wortman (Miami University Press) > *BEEN AND GONE > * by Julian Kornhauser (Marick Press) > *VISIONS FROM FINIS TERRAE: CHILEAN VOICES IN THE UNITED STATES > * edited by Pablo Arriar?n (Inter-American Dialogue/Marick Press) > *LIGHT LIGHT OR THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH > * by Harriet Zinnes (Marsh Hawk Press) > *FORT DAD *by Stephen Paul Miller (Marsh Hawk Press) > *IN WAYS IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLD > * by Michael Rerick (Marsh Hawk Press) > *THE COMEBACK'S EXOSKELETON > * by Matthew Rotando (UpSet Press) > *STRANGER *by Laura Sims (Fence Books) > Posted by < SPAN class=fn>The Happy Intern at 12:49 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Friday, April 17, 2009 < A name=6839126252643424570> JUST IN! > *FROM DAME QUICKLY > * by Jennifer Scappettone (Litmus Press) > *THE RUST LIFE > * by Jack Crimmins (earthworm press & projects) > *STRANGE TERRAIN: A POETRY HANDBOOK FOR THE RELUCTANT READER > * by Alice B. Fogel (Hobblebush Books) > *SUBWAY MOON > * by Roy Nathanson (Buddy's Knife Jazz Edition) > *COMPOSITIONS FOR COMPUTER, VOLUME 1 > * by Joel Mellin (Kolourmeim Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:44 PM 0 > comments Links to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, April 15, 2009 FRANKLIN ROSEMONT SPD > is saddened to learn of the passing of surrealist Franklin Rosemont > . > > An obituary from the Chicago Surrealist Group is here > . > Posted by The Happy Intern at 10:34 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Tuesday, April 14, 2009 SPD Archive, 1990 Here's > Steve Dickison deciding if SPD can take on this case. As can be seen from > his desk, Steve had many jobs at SPD?essentially three present-day positions > in one. This is from the San Pab lo era (1986-1995). > Posted by The Happy=2 0Intern at 3:49 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > Monday, April 13, 2009 JUST IN! > *BODY OF TEXT > * by David Ellingsen and Michael V. Smith (BookThug) > *TALKING MASKS (OEDIPUSSY) > * by Adam Seelig (BookThug) > *FACE * by > Melissa Buzzeo (BookThug) > *IN STEREO > * by Paul Hegedus (BookThug) > *SELF-PORTRAIT WITH CRAYON > * by Allison Benis White (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *TRUST * by Liz > Waldner (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *HORSE DANCE UNDERWATER > * by Helena Mesa (Cleveland State U Poetry Center) > *CHANT * by > Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > *SIDEWALK PORTRAIT > * by Rick Henry (BlazeVOX Books) > *POEMS IN CONVERSATION AND A CONVERSATION > * by Elizabeth Alexander & Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon (Slapering Hol Press) > *THE DANCE OF THE DEMONS > * by Esther Singer Kreitman (The Feminist Press at CUNY) > *CITY OF WATER > * by Robert Thompson (Ahadada Books) > *WHAT ARE INTELLECTUALS GOOD FOR? > * by George Scialabba (Pressed Wafer) > *SIDEBROW 01 > * J. Snyder, J. Cleary & K. Leja, Eds. (Sidebrow) > *A MILLION IN PRIZES > * by Justin Marks (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *HILARITY *by Patty Seyburn (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:22 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, April 8, 2009 JUST IN! > *Hurry Home Honey > * by Sawako Nakayasu (Burning20Deck) > *World Ball Notebook > * by Sesshu Foster (City Lights) > *Zero at the Bone > * by Stacie Cassarino (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *Dirt Angels > * by Donald Platt (New Issues Poetry & Prose) > *Islands Linked by Ocean > * by Lisa Linn Kanae (Bamboo Ridge Press) > *Dine-Rite: Breakfast Poems > * by Louis Daniel Brodsky (Time Being Books) > *Columbine: A True Crime Story, a Victim, the Killers and the Nation's > Search for Answers > * by Jeff Kass (Ghost Road Press) > *Seaweed, Salmon, and Manzanita Cider: A California Indian Feast > * by Margaret Dubin and Sara-Larus Tolley (Heyday Books) > *Gospel > * by Samiya Bashir (Redbone20Press) > *Apology for the Book of Creatures > * by Dan Beachy-Quick (Ahsahta=2 0Press) > *Trillions & Trillions of Heartbeats > * by Meg Hamill (Resonant Books) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 11:58 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Tuesday, April 7, 2009 SPD Archive, 1986 > A > sunny afternoon outside celebrating SPD's move to San Pablo Avenue. From > left to right: Eileen Corder, Columbine Robinson, Nick Robinson, Lyn > Hejinian snapshotting the photographer, Simone Fattal, and a suit. In the > background is a barsign for The Bird, now known as The Albatross. > > And > here's Kit Robinson on the same occasion dashingly cutting the ribbon with > gardening shears. > ** > Posted by The Happy Intern at 4:27 PM 1 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > SPD Archive, 1979 > Season's > Greetings from 1979! From left to right: David Bullen, Chuck Miller, > Jeannetta Jones Miller, Jean Day with Casey Miller, and Nick Robinson. This > photo was probably taken outside SPD's storefront on Shattuck, next to > Serendipity Books. > ** > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:48 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: SPD Archive > BLOW-OUT VIDEOS! From > our Open House last weekend, shot by Oscar Bermeo > : > > [image: Clark Coolidge reads for Small Press Distribution's 40th] [image: > Clark Coolidge reads for Small Press Distribution's 40th] [image: > Norma Cole] [image: > Graham Foust] [image: > Tennessee Reed] [image: > Erica Lewis] [image: > Andrea Lopez] [image: > Alex Espinoza] > Posted by CLAY BANES at 2:59 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS , POEMS, > VISITORS > SPD Archive, 1978 > > The stunning cover of SPD's 1978 catalog. A mysterious neo-constructivist > trend runs sporadically through SPD design history. This may be the only > extant copy of this catalog, from way back when SPD was SBD: Serendipity > Books Distribution. > Posted by The Happy Intern at 2:30 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > Labels: SPD Archive > Monday, April 6, 2009 [image: SPD Open House 40th Anniversary Poetry > Blow-Out Photos by Oscar Bermeo] > [image: SPD Open House 40th Anniversary Poetry Blow-Out Photos by Oscar > Bermeo] > PHOTOS BY OSCAR BERMEO > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:20 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS , > VISITORS > Friday, April 3, 2009 JUST IN! > *YOUNG REVOLUTIONARIES WHO ROCK*by Dallas Jessup (Sutton Hart Press) > *THE HARDSHIP POST*by Jehanne Dubrow (Three Candles Press) > *EXQUISITE CORPSE ANNUAL, NO. 1, 2009*edited by Andrei Codrescu and Mark Spitzer (Exquisite Corpse Annual/Chum > Books) > *GETTING LOST IN A CITY LIKE THIS*by Jack Anderson (Hanging Loose Press) > *THE KANSHI POEMS OF TAIGU RY?KAN*by Taigu Ry?kan (Bottom Dog Press) > *FIRST BABY POEMS*by Anne Waldman (BlazeVOX Books) > *IT MIGHT DO WELL WITH STRAWBERRIES *by David Matlin (Marick Press) > *VARIATIONS ON A NATURAL THEME: A LOON YEAR*by Hugh Hennedy (Hobblebush Books) > *IN THE ARENA: LIFE AND TIMES OF WILLIAM W. TREAT*by Merle Drown (Hobblebush Books) > *IN SEARCH OF SMALL GODS*by Jim Harrison (Copper Canyon Press) > *FUMBLING IN THE LIGHT*by Sidney Hall Jr. (Hobblebush Books) > *VOLT: ART ON ART SPRING 2009*edited by Gillian Conoley (Volt) > *LEMON PEELED THE MOMENT BEFORE: NEW & SELECTED POEMS, 1967-2008*by Roger Mitchell (Ausable Press) > *THE MONSTER LOVES HIS LABYRINTH*by Charles Simic (Ausable Press) > *AMORISCO* by Zhaled Mattawa (Au sable Press) > *THE SKELETON OF THE CROW: NEW AND SELECT ED POEMS, 1980-2008*by Seido Ray Ronci (Ausable Press) > *MADE FLESH*by Craig Arnold (Ausable Press) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:07 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK > COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX > ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap > Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks & a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD > Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 7:40 AM 0 > comments Links to this post > > Labels: EVENTS > JUST IN: JENNIFER MOXLEY'S *CLAMPDOWN* [image: > CLAMPDO WN JENNIFER MOXLEY FLOOD EDITIONS]Jennifer > Moxley's *Clampdown*captures a20time of political despair and self-doubt. Our "so-called common > ground" erodes where liberal thought, implicated in the systems it > critiques, finds no traction and becomes the site of new divisions. Against > the reality of distant wars, everyday pleasures?even love itself?become > frayed by anxiety and shame. Likewise, the past and the future prove > unstable, both close to oblivion in a "maddeningly quiescent landscape" of > winter. Throughout *Clampdown*, Moxley responds to the evanescence of both > life and art with all her poetic resources, at times declamatory and > incisive, at others "freely espousing" and conversational. > Posted by CLAY BANES at 6:00 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Thursday, April 2, 2009 Handsome Young Men > Really? > > ? SPD IN THE SF EXAMINER > Posted by CLAY BANES at 12:42 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 SPD's 4OTH ANNIVERSARY POETRY BLOW-OUT! CLARK > COOLIDGE ? NORMA COLE ? GRAHAM FOUST ? TENNESSEE REED ? ERICA LEWIS ? ALEX > ESPINOZA ? ANDREA LOPEZ > > Sunday, April 5, 2009, 12-4PM > Small Press Distribution > 1341 7TH Street (at Gilman) > Berkeley > MAP > > ? 20-50% OFF ALL BOOKS > ? READINGS AT 2PM > > 0A Brand new books by Clark Coolidge, Norma Cole, and Tennessee Reed! Cheap > Books, Free Readings, Free Snacks, and a Poetry Trading Post?It's the SPD > Spring Open House! > Posted by CLAY BANES at 10:05 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > Labels: EVENTS > Friday, March 27, 2009 JUST IN! > *Plummet * by > Chris Nealon (Edge Books) > *Theogony *by Douglas Rothschild (Subpress) > *Spell Albuqueque: Memoir of a "Difficult" Student > * by Tennessee Reed (AK Press) > *Map of the Hydrogen World > * by Steve Halle (Cracked Slab Books) > *Lightwall > * by Liliana Ursu (Zephyr Press)* Extreme Positionsby Stephen Bett (Spuyten Duyvil) > Portland Noiredited by Kevin Sampsell (Akashic Books) > Seattle Noiredited by Curt Colbert (Akashic Books) > The Jook by > Gary Phillips (PM Press/Switchblade) > Legible Heavensby H.L. Hix (Etruscan Press) > Saint Joe's Passionby Jeremy Schraffenberger (Etruscan Press) > A Poetics of Hiroshimaby William Heyen (Etruscan Press) > Songs of the Deadby Derrick Jensen (PM Press/Flashpoint) > * > Posted by The Happy Intern at 3:07 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Wednesday, March 25, 2009 JUST IN! > *SONGS FOR TOMORROW: A COLLECTION OF POEMS 1960-2002 > * by Ko Un (Green Integer) > *POEMLAND *by Chelsey Minnis (Wave Books) > * > SUNNY WEDNESDAY > * by Noelle Kocot (Wave Books) > *UNION! * by > Ish Klein (Canarium Books) > *THE TANGLED LINE > * by Tod Marshall (Canarium Books) > *TAKE IT * by > Joshua Beckman (Wave Books) > *NOW & THEN: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS > * by Robert Phillips (Ashland Poetry Press) > *LIGHT THICKENS > * by Elizabeth Biller Chapman (Ashland Poetry Press) > *INSEMINATING THE ELEPHANT > * by Lucia Perillo (Copper Canyon Press) > *THE CURVATURE OF BLUE > * by Lucille Lang Day (?erven? Barva Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 1:54 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Monday, March 23, 2009 JUST IN! Notes > on Conceptualismsby Vanessa Place & Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse) > Classification of a Spit Stainby Ellie Ga (Ugly Duckling Presse) > Sometimes My Heart Pushes My Ribsby Ellen Kennedy (Muumuu House) > Zero Summerby Andrew Demcak (BlazeVOX [books]) > Nexus of Evil: Late Fragments, 1-7by Andr? Spears (First Intensity Press) > Delusions of Normalityby J.P. Harpignies (Cool Grove Press) > Journals from the Time of the Radar Dogby Pat Lawrence (BlazeVOX [books]) > Submissionsby Jared Schickling (BlazeVOX [books]) > Parataxis by Matt Hill (BlazeVOX [books]) > DISby Davis Schneiderman (BlazeVOX [books]) > The Desense of Nonfenseby Megan A. Volpert (BlazeVOX [books]) > Astrometry Orgononby Mark Lamoureux (BlazeVOX [books]) > Bystander: An Irrealityby mIEKAL aND (BlazeVOX [books]) > String Paradeby Jordan Stempleman (BlazeVOX [books]) > For To by Skip Fox (BlazeVOX [books]) > Theaters of the Tongueby Diana=2 0Adams (BlazeVOX [books]) > Torched Verse Endsby Steven D. Schroeder (BlazeVOX [books]) > Dead Lettersby Alan May (BlazeVOX [books]) > I Went Looking for Youby Ruth Lepson (BlazeVOX [books]) > Th?i B?nh: Great Peaceby Kevin Bowen (Pressed Wafer) > Alice Fantasticby Maggie Estep (Akashic Books) > Of Mule and Manby Mike Farrell (Akashic Books) > Posted by CLAY BANES at 11:43 AM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Friday, March 20, 2009 Small Press Distribution's New Lit Generation > at=2 0City Lights 3/18 Pictures > and video courtesy of the better-than-able Oscar Bermeo > (whose own report of the night you can read here > ) [image: LAURA MORIARTY AND BRENT CUNNINGHAM SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION'S > NEW LIT GENERATION AT CITY LIGHTS BOOKSTORE] ? > See Oscar's full photo set here > . ? Watch Oscar's video playlist here > . > Posted by CLAY BANES at 1:55 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: EVENTS > Wednesday, March 18, 2009 JUST IN! > *After-Dinner Declarations > * by Nicanor Parra (Host Publications) > *Face * by > Sherman Alexie (Hanging Loose Press) > *German for Travelers: A Novel in 95 Lessons > * by Norah Labiner (Coffee House Press) > *Light, Moving > * by Carolyn Miller (Sixteen Rivers Press) > *The Spoils > * by Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press) > *Coal Mountain Elementary > * by Mark Nowak (Coffee House Press) > *Arena: On Anarchist Cinema > * edited by Richard Porton (PM PRess) > *Again * by > Lynne Knight (Sixteen Rivers Press) > *I Go To Some Hollow > * by Amina Cain (Les Figues Press) > *The Red Army Faction, A Documentary History: Volume 1: Projectiles for > the People > * by J. Smith and Andr? Moncourt (PM Press ) > *The 5th Inning > * by Ethelbert Miller (PM Press/Busboys and Poets) > *Portrait and Dream: New and Selected Poems > * by Bill Berkson (Coffee House Press) > Posted by The Happy Intern at 12:27 PM 0 > comments Links > to this post > > Labels: NEW BOOKS > Thursday, March 12, 2009 suddenly spd is on facebook [image: > SPD FACEBOOK] > Posted by CLAY BANES at 5:45 PM 0 > comments Links to this post > > JUST IN! *BIG > AMERICAN TRIP > * by Christian Peet (Shearman Books) > *BY MYSELF: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY > * by D.A. Powe ll & David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press) > *TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY > * by Michael Heller (ahadada books)< > ... > > [Message clipped] > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/766f6bdc/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed May 6 23:52:05 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women's Hearts In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905060921x521fe87fh110becce660906d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060818u7283b4bpc4c647ba4040e470@mail.gmail.com> <4A01AD2A.1030002@opus40.org> <7db1d01b0905060848y7758223bl11d43cc83f8ae208@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060850p2aac4450h395ad009cf0073f3@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0905060904k47e404f6p2ee61551206bce3c@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905060921x521fe87fh110becce660906d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905062052i152c64d3v7d49d4d387412fd2@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Michael, Your poem's a cameo of the emotion-conflict of our society's unmatured sexual beings [whom I assume all of us have been or are]. Liaisons, commitment, A CHILD......profound and lifelong emotional connections, as you subtly and unsubtly evoke. Does any child NOT [truly] want to know her/his father? Thanks, Judy 2009/5/6 Michael Snider > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > ;-) possibly. > > BTW, Michael, I've chosen you to help me tell the NP world about the > > hilarious *Voted Best Commercial in Europe*, here to be seen on YouTube: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FzgvXdQ9vE > > It's a propos of nothing.....and everything. > > JP > > > > That is hilarious. You think it works? Do I have to write a sonnet > about it? Wait - I did write a sonnet on the subject - though not at > all funny (except perhaps through ineptitude - paradise and dice is > pretty dicey rhyme) > > Call Me Frank > > > Your mother and I were barely friends ? we met > At college and we slept together twice > That I remember. It was paradise! > Oh, not the sex, it?s just I can?t forget > We never, none of us, once felt regret > For anything. No, we just rolled the dice > And didn?t dream we?d have to sacrifice > A thing ? when we crapped out we played roulette! > > I never wondered why she left. One fall > She wasn?t there, and life went on. It does, > You know, go on. And now you?re here, and I > Can?t say what you should call me. Damn it all, > She didn?t tell me, and she was right. She was. > For now, just call me Frank. That?s not a lie. > > ------ > For the record, the poem is a lie. I made it all up. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090506/bc6579bf/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu May 7 01:02:16 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905062202x4575f316laf0110564696918b@mail.gmail.com> A delayed congratulations. And hopefully we will follow the evening on our screens. Anny On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > Thanks, Suzanne. I hope Jack is doing well enuf to attend. > I'm not certain about filming or podcast. If so, I'll let everyone know, > for sure. > Jim F > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Burns > Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 3:59 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert > > Have a wonderful evening, Jim! I know it will be a great event. Will > anyone be filming it? It would great to post something like that on the > web! > > Suzanne > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Judy Prince wrote: >> >>> Enjoy, and let us know how it went! >>> >>> Judy >>> >> And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the >> Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/f7b3316f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu May 7 01:02:51 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905062202x4575f316laf0110564696918b@mail.gmail.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905062202x4575f316laf0110564696918b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905062202m7c4b3f9v157fb1848c78eb50@mail.gmail.com> Not that delayed... sorry for the double message. On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:02 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > A delayed congratulations. And hopefully we will follow the evening on our > screens. > > Anny > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > >> Thanks, Suzanne. I hope Jack is doing well enuf to attend. >> I'm not certain about filming or podcast. If so, I'll let everyone know, >> for sure. >> Jim F >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Suzanne Burns >> Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 3:59 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert >> >> Have a wonderful evening, Jim! I know it will be a great event. Will >> anyone be filming it? It would great to post something like that on the >> web! >> >> Suzanne >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>>> Enjoy, and let us know how it went! >>>> >>>> Judy >>>> >>> And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the >>> Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/94dcf8e0/attachment.html From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com Thu May 7 03:54:06 2009 From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (Jorgensen, Alexander) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New work appearing in Otoliths dedicated to Kathup Tsering Message-ID: <146135.589.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thought would share this piece appearing in Otoliths.?It is dedicated to an old friend currently residing in a refugee camp in Central Europe. ? http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2009/04/alexander-jorgensen-kalachakra-ritual.html ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/3e15267b/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 08:53:35 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com << Saying something like "pyrrhic/spondee in the first two feet" is simple enough and very common ("On a high hill, truth stands . . .") so there's no need to drag out the old Greek terms. >> The problem I have with this is that it implies two distinct feet, the pyrrhic and the spondee, neither of which in my book are either necessary nor exist in syllable-accent metre. [OK, I'm a fundamentalist when it comes to scansion, an Absolute Believer in ictus {or metrical stress} as a function of contrast rather than absolute stress.] The X X / / pattern in syllable-accent metre [and existing elsewhere] only *ever substitutes for two [sic] iambic feet, never either on their own. Sometimes more, as in: Annihilating all that's made To a green thought in a green shade. The reason I call it the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot is that's was what it was called when I first found it described by Joseph Malof -- my personal term for it is the Bugger Factor. As long as you allow the Bugger Factor, you only ever need four feet to describe any text in syllable-accent metre. << Plus, if you want to talk about a poem that is predominantly in a five-foot line, why confuse things by reducing it to four feet with a four-syllable foot? Makes no sense to me at all. >> See above. << One can do all English iambic scansion with the following feet: iamb, trochee, spondee, pyrrhic. >> Gugh!!! Wot, no anapests? (And who needs spondees and pyrrics anyway? The argument against those --leave aside the Bugger Factor -- is that you never *ever get two stressed or two unstressed syllables together where one or the other doesn't carry *some contrastive stress.) I should say that my comments in this area are restricted to that dialect of syllable-accent metre known as the iambic pentameter -- when you move into the Five (possible) English Metrical Languages -- Stress, Syllable-Accent, Qualitative, Syllabic, and Dypocic Metre, you're into a different ball-game. As to free verse, well .... I've been brooding {disconsolately, acerbically) on Mike Snider's comments on his blog, and for once, I'm totally at odds with Mike here. In sum, the crux of free verse is (obviously) where you end the line, and for me this is a conbination of syntactic and metrical units. Mike seems to look at this in narrowly metrical terms, and thus dismiss the control it's possible to exercise over the reading of a properly-constructed free-verse line. Babies and bathwater. Proviso: my own work is [I think] predominantly free-verse (with occasional asides into Marvellian octosyllabic quatrains) -- for all of me, scansion is for geeks. Robin ADDENDUM: Chris Lott, it seems to me, confuses the ability to scan a metrical line with the abilty to write a metrical line -- between 1350 and 1590, poets were quite happily writng entirely proper iambic poems without having the terms to describe it. Language precedes grammar. Mind you, Derrida would have denied this. I think. Insofar as I ever could get my head around what Derrida said. Having once {I kid you not} gone to the trouble of getting a medical note excusing me from reading post-structuralist literary theory. I'm reluctantly prepared to engage [hi Bob Grumman. come back, all is forgiven] with the New Historicism, either the UK [think Lever and the sonnets] or US varieties, but not, as you might say, "happily". Though what that's got to do with metrics, *I don't know. R. } From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu May 7 09:32:00 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: <4A02453E.7070802@medicine.nodak.edu> References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> <4A02453E.7070802@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <4A02E2D0.1040806@opus40.org> Unless it's marketed by Wolfram and Hart. Richard Wilsnack wrote: > James Cervantes wrote: >> Well, I like the name better than "Google." Wolfram Alpha is just >> geekie and techie enough. Wolfram Beta would have been a bust. >> >> - Jim >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini >> > wrote: >> >> The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in >> the US last week, takes the first step towards what many consider >> to be the internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information >> that understands and responds to ordinary language in the same >> way a person does. >> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html >> > > Why not Tungsten Alpha? Just as macho and easier to pronounce: > > "Tungsten is one of those elements with a symbol that doesn't seem to > correlate to its name, or at least its English name. The symbol 'W' > comes from the name wolfram, which you will find on German and certain > other periodic tables. A man named Peter Woulfe determined that > tungsten was a new substance, but the element's name doesn't derive > from his name. Rather, it comes from the Swedish wolf rahm, which > refers to the way the ore wolframite (Fe, Mn)WO4 intereferes with tin > smelting, appearing to devour the metal." [from "Anne Marie's > Chemistry Blog," 2001] > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac@medicine.nodak.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:45:35 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Duh, finding what you're looking for. What a drag. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > > > The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in the US >> last week, takes the first step towards what many consider to be the >> internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information that understands and >> responds to ordinary language in the same way a person does. >> >> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/069bbb8e/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:49:46 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: <4A02453E.7070802@medicine.nodak.edu> References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> <4A02453E.7070802@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <648208b60905070649q53d17d23v2ab0ec48d39e8520@mail.gmail.com> Oooh. I like Tungsten Alpha, though it might be best for a 300 yard long, platinum colored, windowless spaceship that measured space in syllables and was itself the only accent (or stress if you were unlucky enough to be nearby). - Jim On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Richard Wilsnack < rwilsnac@medicine.nodak.edu> wrote: > James Cervantes wrote: > > Well, I like the name better than "Google." Wolfram Alpha is just geekie > and techie enough. Wolfram Beta would have been a bust. > - Jim > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > >> The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in the US >> last week, takes the first step towards what many consider to be the >> internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information that understands and >> responds to ordinary language in the same way a person does. >> >> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html >> >> > Why not Tungsten Alpha? Just as macho and easier to pronounce: > > "Tungsten is one of those elements with a symbol that doesn't seem to > correlate to its name, or at least its English name. The symbol 'W' comes > from the name wolfram, which you will find on German and certain other > periodic tables. A man named Peter Woulfe determined that tungsten was a new > substance, but the element's name doesn't derive from his name. Rather, it > comes from the Swedish wolf rahm, which refers to the way the ore wolframite > (Fe, Mn)WO4 intereferes with tin smelting, appearing to devour the metal." > [from "Anne Marie's Chemistry Blog," 2001] > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac@medicine.nodak.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/f86e10d5/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:58:02 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Time of Wonders In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70905061350p6498f196u41d5a2abe3b17f3@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905061528g233980b7k13d308ecff1890d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905070658n2924a688se06b98fca8f7161@mail.gmail.com> No, like talking to a politician. - Jim On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Duh, finding what you're looking for. What a drag. > > Hal > > "My experience is what I agree to attend to." > --William James > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> >> The new system, Wolfram Alpha, showcased at Harvard University in the US >>> last week, takes the first step towards what many consider to be the >>> internet's Holy Grail ? a global store of information that understands and >>> responds to ordinary language in the same way a person does. >>> >>> >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/an-invention-that-could-change-the-internet-for-ever-1678109.html >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/a5aa81ed/attachment.html From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Thu May 7 10:11:39 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert In-Reply-To: <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> References: <0KIX00DJ4UBJ4729@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <8CB9A6000316AFB-448-4B13@webmail-dh34.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905032339w2accddfcxfc3e3378d33f252e@mail.gmail.com> <49FF4A8F.50304@nut-n-but.net> <8CB9C8F4B4D5610-510-10B2@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oy, I heard his health has been fragile. :-( I hope he is doing okay. They should film it for him at least. S On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 2:26 PM, wrote: > Thanks, Suzanne. I hope Jack is doing well enuf to attend. > I'm not certain about filming or podcast. If so, I'll let everyone know, > for sure. > Jim F > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Burns > Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 3:59 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tribute reading for Jack Gilbert > > Have a wonderful evening, Jim! I know it will be a great event. Will > anyone be filming it? It would great to post something like that on the > web! > > Suzanne > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Judy Prince wrote: >> >>> Enjoy, and let us know how it went! >>> >>> Judy >>> >> And wave a big banner that says, "NEW-POETRY, the only place on the >> Internet where the full range of contemporary American poetry is discussed." >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/4ffdeadb/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 10:12:38 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Metrics (continued) In-Reply-To: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4E01C4EC26064A348ED7713D6779B34A@RobinLaptopPC> ... I've realized that one reason I dislike the idea of "promotion" in the metrical analysis of syllable-accent verse isn't just that it necessitates a wrenching of natural speech rhythms, but that it's *unnecessary -- contrastive stress describes the phenomenon better. Occam's Razor. Bite it and see. Robin {I mean other than "promotion" referring to the way that the natural [i.e. normal spoken] stress can float around. R.} Incidentally, is "promotion" a stopped-at-the-frontier term for New Formalists? They aren't the only to use it, but they use it more than most. C3P0 From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 10:29:01 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scansion Revisited In-Reply-To: <4E01C4EC26064A348ED7713D6779B34A@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <4E01C4EC26064A348ED7713D6779B34A@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: > They aren't the only to use it, but they use it more than most. I thought of constructing this as the more grammatically correct: They aren't the only ones to use it, but they use it more than most ... but I preferred the metrical swing of the original version. Mid you, I didn't scan neither. R. From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu May 7 10:29:49 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Robin (and the rest of ya) > > I should say that my comments in this area are restricted to that dialect of > syllable-accent metre known as the iambic pentameter -- when you move into > the Five (possible) English Metrical Languages -- Stress, Syllable-Accent, > Qualitative, Syllabic, and Dypocic Metre, you're into a different ball-game. > Can ayone poit me to a good source (sources?) on qualitative meter? > ? ? ? As to free verse, well .... > > I've been brooding {disconsolately, acerbically) on Mike Snider's comments > on his blog, and for once, I'm totally at odds with Mike here. > > In sum, the crux of free verse is (obviously) where you end the line, and > for me this is a conbination of syntactic and metrical units. > > Mike seems to look at this in narrowly metrical terms, and thus dismiss the > control it's possible to exercise over the reading of a properly-constructed > free-verse line. > > Babies and bathwater. > Robin, I've been unclear. Seems to me you're exactly right on how the line break ought to function in free verse - I've been lamenting that so many poets, even well-known ad respected poets, don't seem use the line break that way. That piece by Howell in Slate ( http://www.slate.com/id/2217621/ ), for instance, is carefully organized on the page, and sounds good when he reads, but I see no connection between performance and layout, including line breaks. Maybe I'm missing something. > Proviso: ?my own work is [I think] predominantly free-verse (with occasional > asides into Marvellian octosyllabic quatrains) -- for all of me, scansion is > for geeks. > I write software for mathematical analysis of video imagery, I write sonnets and double refrain ballades, and I spend hours playing modal scales on my mandolin. Geek? Me? From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu May 7 10:51:14 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830905070751x6728a42ch85f5ecddc3a25e07@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > Robin (and the rest of ya) > >> >> I should say that my comments in this area are restricted to that dialect of >> syllable-accent metre known as the iambic pentameter -- when you move into >> the Five (possible) English Metrical Languages -- Stress, Syllable-Accent, >> Qualitative, Syllabic, and Dypocic Metre, you're into a different ball-game. >> > > Can ayone poit me to a good source (sources?) on qualitative meter? That is, if it's not just alternating stress/unstress patterns From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 11:27:18 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Can ayone poit me to a good source (sources?) on qualitative meter? Derrik Attridge early on (I think). His first book. The only (English) text in which it works (for me) is Clough's _Amours de Voyage_ Unnerving. And a raft of Sapphics (from Sidney via Southey) ... Odd that the Sapphic stanza works while nothing else does ... / X X / X for the fourth line. When I first encountered this -- Couper's "Lines Written in a Period Of Insanity" -- I thought the only explanation was that Couper was barking mad. Goes back (and before that) to, of all people, Issac Watts' "God disavouws / And Deity disowns me." Sidney did it first (in the Arcadia). > Robin, I've been unclear. Seems to me you're exactly right on how the > line break ought to function in free verse - I've been lamenting that > so many poets, even well-known ad respected poets, don't seem use the > line break that way. Well, free verse ... Who knows? Nobody's cracked the rationale behind free verse, but still, lots of us use it. So to uncrumple this much crumpled thing ... Tomorrow? What annoyed me about your blog comments was you seemed to sweep the problems under the carpet. I might be being unfair here ... Isn't there a consensus that the the crux of the problem of free verse -- how you tell the difference between free-verse and simply chopped-up prose -- turns on line-endings? Robin {There's also my personal opinion that more impotant than the difference between quantitative and qualitative is the degree to which you allow substitutions. Otherwise you could simply substitute stress for length. But this doesn't (or, historically, never has) worked. Mind you, there's the fight over the Classical Sapphic Stanza and the Englsih Sapphic stanza. Wot larks, Pip! R. } From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 11:35:45 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905070751x6728a42ch85f5ecddc3a25e07@mail.gmail.com> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC><6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830905070751x6728a42ch85f5ecddc3a25e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2A79934C2E2E4326A2625DF8D1B9FA06@RobinLaptopPC> From: "Michael Snider" >> Can ayone poit me to a good source (sources?) on qualitative meter? > > That is, if it's not just alternating stress/unstress patterns That's the crunch. *All English metres depend on a repeat pattern (with variations). Classical Quantitive metres depend on some sort of weird mathemnatical formula (and have to be *learned). So Ok, that's probably overstating it, and I'm willing to be enlightened. Robin. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 11:51:06 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Michael Snider" > I write software for mathematical analysis of video imagery, I write > sonnets and double refrain ballades, and I spend hours playing modal > scales on my mandolin. Geek? Me? I once (god help me) wrote 5000 lines of a Basic program to process exam results,. before I realized visicalc did it better. So if you're a geek, I'm a truly a Real Sad Geek. ... and I can't even play "If you'll tak the high road and I'll tak the low road" on a pennywhistle. Wish I could ... Robin (Quiche Eaters Rule, OK!) From chris at chrislott.org Thu May 7 12:51:39 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > ADDENDUM: > > Chris Lott, it seems to me, confuses the ability to scan a metrical line > with the abilty to write a metrical line -- between 1350 and 1590, poets > were quite happily writng entirely proper iambic poems without having the > terms to describe it. Do I? If that's what it sounded like, it's surely not something I meant to say or imply. Still, I'm not sure I agree, at least not in the sense that matters to me. I'm not interested in the theory of metrics... just how it works when reading. Those poets may not have had the language to describe it, but they certainly understood and used the meter, so I don't think it matters much to me if they had a specific terminology or not. At any rate, I'm really unconcerned with whether people can accidentally or intuitively write metrical lines. I'm interested in: a) as a practical matter, figuring out when the agreement ends and the subjective reading begins (pretty quickly, apparently), b) why I should care (I kind of get the picture, but it seems to be doing more harm than good), and c) how I can improve my scansion ability (for the most part I'm at a loss because of 'a' above). c From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu May 7 13:21:49 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> Chris -- I'm not so sure that there's been so much disagreement -- there was fairly general agreement on the Frost poem, and I think for the most part, disagreements will be minor. I think - can't guarantee it - that the negative effects of learning scansion will go away fairly quickly. Becoming aware of scansion may occasionally come between you and a poem you otherwise would have liked, but it may also help you to understand what bothers you about a poem you sort of don't like but aren't quite sure why, How to improve it? Start with the basics -- there are four basic groupings of stressed and unstressed syllables in English poetry, and every poem written in meter can be scanned using them. As Robin says, and as Robert Pinsky says, your ear will always hear one syllable stressed a little more than the other, even when you have two strong or two weak syllables back to back. If you see two different ways of scanning a line, assume the more regular one. Chris Lott wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > >> ADDENDUM: >> >> Chris Lott, it seems to me, confuses the ability to scan a metrical line >> with the abilty to write a metrical line -- between 1350 and 1590, poets >> were quite happily writng entirely proper iambic poems without having the >> terms to describe it. >> > > Do I? If that's what it sounded like, it's surely not something I > meant to say or imply. Still, I'm not sure I agree, at least not in > the sense that matters to me. I'm not interested in the theory of > metrics... just how it works when reading. Those poets may not have > had the language to describe it, but they certainly understood and > used the meter, so I don't think it matters much to me if they had a > specific terminology or not. > > At any rate, I'm really unconcerned with whether people can > accidentally or intuitively write metrical lines. I'm interested in: > > a) as a practical matter, figuring out when the agreement ends and the > subjective reading begins (pretty quickly, apparently), > > b) why I should care (I kind of get the picture, but it seems to be > doing more harm than good), and > > c) how I can improve my scansion ability (for the most part I'm at a > loss because of 'a' above). > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 7 18:36:40 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bryant Voigt Message-ID: EBV's new book can be previewed here: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Syntax-Rhythm-Thought/dp/1555975313 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/a897b53e/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 18:41:09 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> Message-ID: <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> Again, I couldn't resist, but just to be picky ... << From: "TheOldMole" ... > there are four basic groupings of stressed and unstressed syllables in > English poetry, and every poem written in meter can be scanned using them. >> This is only true of syllable-accent metre. Dipodic Metre (the metre of nursery rhymes and the ballads, and possibly John Crow Ransom -- and the New England Song Book and thus Emily Dickinson?) *needs three degrees of stress -- in Dipodic Metre, this is functional, not optional. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty dumpty had a great fall ... In the way that the mid-line break in (some) stress-metre(s), deriving ultimately from alliterative stress metre, is functional, whereas the caesura in an iambic pentameter line is an optional frill. This is a descriptive rather than a prescriptive statement -- bite it and see. Other than that, I'm entirely onside with Mole here. Robin [Functional vs optional -- think of the difference between the Italian/Petrarchan sonnet, where the octave/sestet break is functional, based on the rhyme scheme: abbaabba cdecde ... in contrast to (despite all that's said) the English/Shakespearean rhyme scheme, where the octave/sestet distinction is like a veriform appendix: abab cdcd efef gg R. ] From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 19:09:01 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mertre vs Metrics In-Reply-To: <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC><4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <575624A2ADFF472CA17350AEA1B6B1EF@RobinLaptopPC> It's probably too obvious to be worth saying, but the default assumptiom when discussing metrics is that we're talking about the syllable-accent iambic pentameter line. Admittedly, if you stick a pin in virtually any line of printed poetry published between 1590 and 1900, nineteen times out of twenty you'll be poking an iambic pentameter. But there was (and is) a world elsewhere. And that's even before we reach 1900 when Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams threw a fox into the hencoop. It runs differently, I suspect, in the US and the UK -- Robert Frost never spawned any metrical children (the New Formalists, as far as I can see, go back to Auden rather than Frost, which strikes me as singularly weird -- why did you cast off the yoke of empire in the first place?) whereas here Hardy begat Larkin, and free verse never became the only game in town. Robin [An analogy -- writing a sonnet is in some ways easy -- you know that you have to end after fourteen lines of more or less ten syllables. Difficult, like walking the high wire holding a pole to help your balance. But writing free verse, they take away the pole.. R. ] From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu May 7 19:51:45 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bryant Voigt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6768ac830905071651w4c672603n4b7de00434b5de97@mail.gmail.com> no preview :-( Have your read any of it, Sam? On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:36 PM, wrote: > EBV's new book can be previewed here: > > http://www.amazon.com/Art-Syntax-Rhythm-Thought/dp/1555975313 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 20:00:02 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC><6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51B9C4EA66214532B79A646365DF2DA2@RobinLaptopPC> << > / X X / X for the fourth line. >> Sorry. Obviously: / X X / / << > Mind you, there's the fight over the Classical Sapphic Stanza and the > English Sapphic stanza. >> There's quite a bit of blood on the carpet over this, and not just with metricists. Although the amount of venom that can be expended on metrical disagreements can be quite stunning. ... and this particular thread is singularly well-mannered. Nobody has yet posted (however much they may have been muttering it under their breath) Sua madre. But there was the stunning dismissal of Ezra Pound's (was it "Apparuit"?) by Eddie Marsh in 1910 -- "Not really a properly scanned Sapphic poem, dear boy." Just another thought. Robin [There's a weird slang phrase which crops up briefly in the 1890s, which may be somehow connected to Sua madre -- "Has your mother sold her mangle yet?" Or possibly not. It never seemed to gain much traction. Possibly because no one, even those who used it, seemed to know what it meant. R.] From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 20:23:25 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on mangles .... In-Reply-To: <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC><4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: << The Roman goes quicker to work: Tell me, my Tullia, does your mother know You're out: and has she sold her mangle yet? >> D'oh!!! Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 20:38:49 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Last Mangle In-Reply-To: References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC><4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org><0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <0C303B9ACD6A42199BFCBED7151FB732@RobinLaptopPC> "Has your mother sold her mangle yet?" Actually, the answer is simple -- it's semiotic backslang for, "You're wet behind the ears." Christ knows how even Partridge missed this. I highly suspect that this was never street cockney, but went straight from the brain of Thomas Hood to the pages of what passed for journalism in London in the 1890s. Elementary, my dear... Robin From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu May 7 20:53:21 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Robin Blaser (1925-2009) Message-ID: <788892.82429.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Charles Bernstein? wrote: Robin Blaser died this morning. <> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/f59b86a1/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 7 21:12:31 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BD429C13CB248DB9E6D23B008C413D8@RobinLaptopPC> Mike: > That piece by Howell in Slate ( > http://www.slate.com/id/2217621/ ), for instance, is carefully > organized on the page, and sounds good when he reads, but I see no > connection between performance and layout, including line breaks. > Maybe I'm missing something. On third reading, and ignoring the line-breaks as the poem is set out on the Slate page (I haven't heard it read), you could excavate a hell of a lot of iambic pentameter lines within it which the layout serves to conceal. Might that be the point? It was once suggested to me (by John Lucas) that about the only rationale for syllabics was to write an eleven-syllable line [or whatever], mostly to say, "Look at me! I'm not an iambic pentameter." This would go back to Pound and the idea that the problem with formal verse in general, and the iambic pentameter in particular, is not that it's too difficult to write but that it's too easy. Though Stevens wrote "Sunday Morning" not that long after Pound was gleefully dancing on the grave of the iamb, imagining he'd driven a stake through its heart. Robin From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu May 7 21:43:26 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot Revisited In-Reply-To: <5BD429C13CB248DB9E6D23B008C413D8@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <6768ac830905070729i4712446av53be738091a5a942@mail.gmail.com> <5BD429C13CB248DB9E6D23B008C413D8@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <6768ac830905071843y7c7df02necbe8d16e7104354@mail.gmail.com> Robin, there's a link on the Slate page to the audio, and from that sound it does seem pretty penty. I wonder if that's something people actually do - disguise their metrical poems to get them published. Would be weird. Sorry I haven't been more active in this today - been watching the kids (girls 9 and 13) while my fiancee is rehearsing with a swing band, and my brain just won't engage. They've just gone to bed a little while ago, and I think I'm gonna have to leave this till tomorrow after work. On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Mike: > >> That piece by Howell in Slate ( >> http://www.slate.com/id/2217621/ ), for instance, is carefully >> organized on the page, and sounds good when he reads, but I see no >> connection between performance and layout, including line breaks. >> Maybe I'm missing something. > > On third reading, and ignoring the line-breaks as the poem is set out on the > Slate page (I haven't heard it read), you could excavate a hell of a lot of > iambic pentameter lines within it which the layout serves to conceal. > > Might that be the point? > > It was once suggested to me (by John Lucas) that about the only rationale > for syllabics was to write an eleven-syllable line [or whatever], mostly to > say, "Look at me! ?I'm not an iambic pentameter." > > This would go back to Pound and the idea that the problem with formal verse > in general, and the iambic pentameter in particular, is not that it's too > difficult to write but that it's too easy. > > Though Stevens wrote "Sunday Morning" not that long after Pound was > gleefully dancing on the grave of the iamb, imagining he'd driven a stake > through its heart. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From junction at earthlink.net Thu May 7 22:30:26 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mertre vs Metrics In-Reply-To: <575624A2ADFF472CA17350AEA1B6B1EF@RobinLaptopPC> References: <25780E81C89D46D6A94E8C8B5016A4E3@RobinLaptopPC> <4A0318AD.4020307@opus40.org> <0B334EDCE4B8443A9646A77F173606A7@RobinLaptopPC> <575624A2ADFF472CA17350AEA1B6B1EF@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090507222824.039f1900@earthlink.net> >[An analogy -- writing a sonnet is in some ways easy -- you know >that you have to end after fourteen lines of more or less ten >syllables. Difficult, like walking the high wire holding a pole to >help your balance. But writing free verse, they take away the pole.. A propos that metaphor, a poem by the Cuban Eliseo Diego (1920-1994), my translation. THE ROPE DANCER'S RISKS There goes the rope dancer, imagining the luck and the wonders of air. He's not like us, his nature begins where the air's nature ends it's there that his imagination opens the festivities of another space in which he lives miraculously and every motion is filled with feeling and beauty. Although we see what the rope dancer's doing walking as we do on a path that's his alone: what does it matter that that path be strung above an imperious abyss if the abyss burn with the tiny yellows and violets blues and reds and sepias and purples of caps and bonnets and fortunate squares of lace. That each step of this intent rope dancer could easily be his last is what really matters, which is why it's measure and rhythm that guide his steps. The will also to venture onto what's now nothing but a thread of life with no hope of permanence except for the back and forth, the before and after, is another important distinction. And let's remember that he does it all for a glory so ephemeral even the indifference of the air is more stable, and that it's not from near-misses and broken bones that he earns his keep. Doubtless the rope dancer finds a recompense that we can't imagine. GET GOING! we tell the rope dancer, retiring to the sufficient support of our seats and the merciful earth: we pay for our tickets promptly and we're not about to leave. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090507/22f877af/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:55:24 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder on the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905072355g4a25ae1em68fbd93780de963e@mail.gmail.com> What Have I Learned by Gary Snyder What have I learned but the proper use for several tools? The moments between hard pleasant tasks To sit silent, drink wine, and think my own kind of dry crusty thoughts. ?the first Calochortus flowers and in all the land, it's spring. I point them out: the yellow petals, the golden hairs, to Gen. Seeing in silence: never the same twice, but when you get it right, you pass it on. "What Have I Learned" by Gary Snyder from *Axe Handles*. ? Shoemaker Hoard, 1983. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090508/81f5d63b/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri May 8 16:46:58 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bryant Voigt Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2009 6:52:21 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin@mikesnider.org writes: > > no preview :-( Have your read any of it, Sam? > I did read it. I've been an admirer of her work for years. Very honest and open poetry with a good respect for form. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090508/666d6435/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:22:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] concentration Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905081422t360bc6b2ge6ac64fbe3071971@mail.gmail.com> The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.? Milton http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/science/05tier.html?_r=2&emc=eta1 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090508/c977c658/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:43 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] on a light note Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905081500v2f61f493q8abbc30ac815e1b4@mail.gmail.com> Kenny Everett as Rod Stewart http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfVtycu6WVQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fefficiency-tech-loaded4th.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/0949a1e0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat May 9 05:54:32 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] global warming Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905090254r33736f4ft96adbdc9d86ec2ce@mail.gmail.com> ?*There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture from such a trifling investment of fact.*? -Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883) http://www.drroyspencer.com/2009/05/why-america-does-not-care-about-global-warming/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/d7bd2c19/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat May 9 07:22:41 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] global warming In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905090254r33736f4ft96adbdc9d86ec2ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70905090254r33736f4ft96adbdc9d86ec2ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905090422t859e701o3336081c2bf566f4@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Anny. A most fascinating read! As it happens, I'd just posted to a nother list something which's relevant to this. Here it is: 'Let me type in some wonderful words of scientist-philosopher Freeman Dyson in his semi-autobiographical *Disturbing the Universe*, after which I'll post what he quoted preceding his first chapter, "The Magic City", by poet Frank Thompson and by writer E. Nesbit:' "I am trying in this book to describe to people who are not scientists the way the human situation looks to somebody who is a scientist. Partly I shall be describing how science looks from the inside. Partly I shall be struggling with the ethical problems of war and peace, freedom and responsibility, hope and despair, as these are affected by science. These are all parts of a picture that must be seen as a whole in order to be understood. It makes no sense for me to separate science from technology, technology from ethics, or ethics from religion. I am talking here to unscientific people who ultimately have the responsibility for guiding the growth of science and technology into creative rather than destructive directions. If you, unscientific people, are to succeed in this task, you must understand the nature of the beast you are trying to control. This book is intended to help you understand. If you find it merely amusing or bewildering, it has failed in its purpose. But if you find none of it amusing or bewildering, it has failed even more completely. It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment. Science is no exception." 'Freeman Dyson grew up in England between two world wars, and now lives in USAmerica. Here're the quotes he gave before his first chapter:' "Oh England! Oh my lovely casual country! Serenity of meadowland in April--- Carelessly littered with fritillaries, Ladysmock, kingcups, cowslips, and wild apple!" Frank Thompson, 1943 "And there's a dreadful law here---it was made by mistake, but there it is---that if any one asks for machinery they have to have it and keep on using it." E. Nesbit, 1910 2009/5/9 Anny Ballardini > ?*There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale > returns of conjecture from such a trifling investment of fact.*? > -Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi (1883) > > > http://www.drroyspencer.com/2009/05/why-america-does-not-care-about-global-warming/ > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/a03d42cb/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat May 9 08:54:59 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Craig Arnold RIP: Poet fell to death from cliff Message-ID: <8CB9EBC7F0E5B22-370-264B@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12329871 Poet fell to death from cliff By Ben Fulton The Salt Lake Tribune Updated: 05/08/2009 10:32:09 PM MDT Craig Arnold, a renowned poet with Utah ties, has been missing from a small Japanese island since April 26. An extended search of the Japanese island Kuchino-erabu for traces of Craig Arnold had offered up hope the poet might be injured, but still alive, among one of the island's many crevices. That hope died Friday afternoon once a search team announced that a trail discovered the previous day showed signs that Arnold, 41, suffered a leg injury, then fell from a steep cliff to his death soon afterward. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/eb528bb4/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Sat May 9 11:07:01 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Craig Arnold RIP: Poet fell to death from cliff In-Reply-To: <8CB9EBC7F0E5B22-370-264B@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB9EBC7F0E5B22-370-264B@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB9ECEF0F6F72D-A18-2CE0@WEBMAIL-DZ07.sysops.aol.com> A real shame. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 8:54 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Craig Arnold RIP: Poet fell to death from cliff http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12329871 Poet fell to death from cliff By Ben Fulton The Salt Lake Tribune Updated: 05/08/2009 10:32:09 PM MDT Craig Arnold, a renowned poet with Utah ties, has been missing from a small Japanese island since April 26. An extended search of the Japanese island Kuchino-erabu for traces of Craig Arnold had offered up hope the poet might be injured, but still alive, among one of the island's many crevices. That hope died Friday afternoon once a search team announced that a trail discovered the previous day showed signs that Arnold, 41, suffered a leg injury, then fell from a steep cliff to his death soon afterward. The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/2adfc22f/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 9 11:13:30 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bryant Voigt Message-ID: Garrison Keillor informs me that it's Voigt's birthday today. I'm very glad to hear of her snagging the Poets' Prize. Well deserved. Her first prose collection, *The Flexible Lyric*, is a real gem, I think, and I look forward to her new one. Here's a favorite poem of hers, an early piece: For My Husband Is it a dream, the way we huddle over the board, our fingers touching the slick button? The Ouija stammers under so much doubt, finally reaches L, then O, pauses under its lettered heaven, and as it veers toward loss and the long past that lodges with us, you press toward love, and the disk stalls outside a cry is loosed from the bay, but you are looking for two swans on a glass lake, a decade of roses-- oh my lonely, my precious loaf, can't we say outloud the parent word, longing, whose sad head looms over any choice you make? --Ellen Bryant Voigt, The Forces of Plenty. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/34d26b76/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 9 11:57:50 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Unscientific survey Message-ID: I'm reading exams for my Poetry Aloud course, in which among other things I find out which poets appear to be student favorites, since one question asks them to interpret a poem of their choice. The winners, this term, appear to be: Patricia Smith Ron Koertge Lucille Clifton Patricia Smith visited our campus this term, so her popularity is not surprising. Ron Koertge surprised me a bit; we didn't officially study him, but students discovered his poems in one of our anthologies on their own. Possibly my first time teaching this course when no one selected Billy Collins, for whatever that's worth. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/3184897b/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat May 9 12:58:06 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Unscientific survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, BC's fifteen minutes (or is it fifteen seconds nowadays?) were up a while back. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:57 AM, David Graham wrote: > I'm reading exams for my Poetry Aloud course, in which among other things I > find out which poets appear to be student favorites, since one question asks > them to interpret a poem of their choice. > The winners, this term, appear to be: > > Patricia Smith > Ron Koertge > Lucille Clifton > > Patricia Smith visited our campus this term, so her popularity is not > surprising. Ron Koertge surprised me a bit; we didn't officially study him, > but students discovered his poems in one of our anthologies on their own. > > Possibly my first time teaching this course when no one selected Billy > Collins, for whatever that's worth. . . . > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/750d71fb/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:08:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Unscientific survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905091108p2abf9de1pc48de3b9ac632407@mail.gmail.com> I think I agree with Hal, he almost disappeared. He will be soon back. On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Ah, BC's fifteen minutes (or is it fifteen seconds nowadays?) > were up a while back. > > Hal > > "My experience is what I agree to attend to." > --William James > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:57 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> I'm reading exams for my Poetry Aloud course, in which among other things >> I find out which poets appear to be student favorites, since one question >> asks them to interpret a poem of their choice. >> The winners, this term, appear to be: >> >> Patricia Smith >> Ron Koertge >> Lucille Clifton >> >> Patricia Smith visited our campus this term, so her popularity is not >> surprising. Ron Koertge surprised me a bit; we didn't officially study him, >> but students discovered his poems in one of our anthologies on their own. >> >> Possibly my first time teaching this course when no one selected Billy >> Collins, for whatever that's worth. . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/10c98059/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:12:23 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bryant Voigt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905091112r3904ca35vdecac90fe8dc3a4a@mail.gmail.com> It's a beautiful poem. On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:13 PM, David Graham wrote: > Garrison Keillor informs me that it's Voigt's birthday today. > I'm very glad to hear of her snagging the Poets' Prize. Well deserved. > > Her first prose collection, *The Flexible Lyric*, is a real gem, I think, > and I look forward to her new one. > > Here's a favorite poem of hers, an early piece: > > *For My Husband* > > Is it a dream, > the way we huddle over the board, > our fingers touching the slick button? > The Ouija stammers under so much doubt, > finally reaches L, then O, > pauses under its lettered heaven, > and as it veers toward *loss* and the long past > that lodges with us, you press toward *love*, > and the disk stalls > outside > a cry is loosed from the bay, > but you are looking for two swans > on a glass lake, a decade of roses-- > oh my lonely, my precious loaf, > can't we say outloud the parent word, > *longing*, > whose sad head > looms over any choice you make? > > --Ellen Bryant Voigt, *The Forces of Plenty.* > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/72600ba2/attachment.html From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sat May 9 15:36:36 2009 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (cvoisine@nmsu.edu) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] my unofficial survey Message-ID: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> for my undergraduate poetry class: Mary Ruefle Eileen Myles in a dead heat. thanks for a chance to reexamine the examinations... Connie From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 9 17:58:48 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> References: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> Message-ID: <4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> I'd be curious who the best students wrote about, and/or what the oddest choices were. I would think the best would choose poets not covered , or much more than named, in any of his literature courses. Hmmm, just thought of a topic I as a teacher might assign: write an essay on some poet you like but doubt anyone else knows much about, and say why you like him, providing a sample poem with your commentary on it. Any of you teachers done anything like that? Ought-oh, I'm on a roll. How about assigning a class to write an essay on a poem they've been made to read in college they consider the pits, saying why. Would that be legal? --Bob From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 9 17:09:51 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> References: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> <4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> A pretty standard assignment for my intro classes is to do an analysis of a poem first published in the past 3 years. In part I do this because, over the years, I got so heartily tired of reading essays on "To An Athlete Dying Young" and "The Raven." In part I do it so that students get a tiny bit of experience in doing some research, discovering in the process that there are contemporary poets they might enjoy. And one side benefit: it almost entirely cuts out the chance of them turning in plagiarized essays. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 9, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I'd be curious who the best students wrote about, and/or what the > oddest > choices were. I would think the best would choose poets not covered , > or much more than named, in any of his literature courses. > > Hmmm, just thought of a topic I as a teacher might assign: write an > essay on some poet you like but doubt anyone else knows much about, > and say why you like him, providing a sample poem with your > commentary on it. Any of you teachers done anything like that? > > Ought-oh, I'm on a roll. How about assigning a class to write an > essay on a poem they've been made to read in college they consider > the pits, saying why. Would that be legal? > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/f6aeee4f/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 9 18:43:51 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> References: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu><4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A060727.2070407@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > A pretty standard assignment for my intro classes is to do an analysis > of a poem first published in the past 3 years. In part I do this > because, over the years, I got so heartily tired of reading essays on > "To An Athlete Dying Young" and "The Raven." In part I do it so that > students get a tiny bit of experience in doing some research, > discovering in the process that there are contemporary poets they > might enjoy. And one side benefit: it almost entirely cuts out the > chance of them turning in plagiarized essays. Unless they are one of the eight people reading my blog. . . . Your assignment sounds good to me. Made me think of a nasty in-class assignment (although it'd be a lot of work for the teacher): give each student a poem by the poet the student wrote an essay about to analyze. Students who didn't plagiarize ought to do much better than those who did. --Bob From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 9 17:53:36 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <4A060727.2070407@nut-n-but.net> References: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu><4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> <4A060727.2070407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8538F23B-8965-4638-A98A-B725810156E9@ripon.edu> 'Tis the season for teachers to tell plagiarism & cheating stories. . . . Students keep coming up with new ways to amaze, it seems. Couple years back I had a paper turned in, and the student didn't even bother to change the header. There it was: another course number, a different professor's name, and a date from the previous year. Which raises the perennial question of whether some students read their own papers, much less proofread them.... ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== > > Your assignment sounds good to me. Made me think of a nasty in- > class assignment (although it'd be a lot of work for the teacher): > give each student a poem by the poet the student wrote an essay > about to analyze. Students who didn't plagiarize ought to do much > better than those who did. > > --Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/ed37a6b7/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat May 9 18:02:08 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey Message-ID: In a message dated 5/9/2009 4:10:06 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd@ripon.edu writes: > > A pretty standard assignment for my intro classes is to do an analysis of > a poem first published in the past 3 years. In part I do this because, > over the years, I got so heartily tired of reading essays on "To An Athlete > Dying Young" and "The Raven." In part I do it so that students get a tiny > bit of experience in doing some research, discovering in the process that > there are contemporary poets they might enjoy. And one side benefit: it > almost entirely cuts out the chance of them turning in plagiarized essays. I have my students write two 500-word book reviews of books published in the last 25 years or so; they give brief oral presentations on the books. They also have two recitations of poems from the anthology (mine, of course) or poems at least 14 lines long. In my beginning class this semester I gave a total of ten assignments, ranging from free verse narratives, ballads, rap, blank verse monologues, sonnets, and repeating forms. I also give five-question reading quizzes over poems assigned as examples; we used the new (6th) edition of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology and John Whitworth's Writing Poetry. I generally switch the second book around and have also had success with Stephen Fry's The Ode Less Travelled and a couple of others. This was an exceptionally good class, and I've gone back to the practice of having them present their poems from the front of the class. There is no final exam, but they are bringing poems--any size, any shape, any genre--to the final. I also suggested that they try to write, just for fun, really bad poems as well, just to show that maybe they've learned the difference between bad and good. I gave them a couple that I'd recently entered in a bad poem competition as examples: The Pain in My Heart I was looking for something in the garage And I found your dusty golf-cart. Your old putter leans in the corner Like this lonely pain in my heart. In the closet your shirts still hang Like a memory that will not depart. Some of them have long collars like This longstanding pain in my heart. In the drawer I found a metal bracket That must be a spare part To something. It reminded me Of your loss, this pain in my heart. Wherever I look in the house I feel love's wounding dart, And it hurts me as sorely as Angina, the pain in my heart. The Road of Life The road of life is like a river That runs down to the sea. It forks and twists and tumbles And is not straight, you see. Those who wander down it Must wade in to their knees And make an uphill journey As slowly as they please. They must follow its direction signs And stop at every light. The current is against them >From early morn ?til night. When they reach its beginning, Its pure and lofty source, The road of life has ended And they are home, of course. The advanced poetry course in the fall retains the recitation and review requirements, but otherwise it's strictly a workshop. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/b18b44f3/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat May 9 18:09:19 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey Message-ID: In a message dated 5/9/2009 4:54:09 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd@ripon.edu writes: > > > 'Tis the season for teachers to tell plagiarism &cheating stories. . . . > > Students keep coming up with new ways to amaze, it seems. Couple years > back I had a paper turned in, and the student didn't even bother to change > the header. There it was: another course number, a different professor's > name, and a date from the previous year. > > > Which raises the perennial question of whether some students read their > own papers, much less proofread them.... > > > > > I had a creative writing student turn in Millay's "Love Is Not All" for a sonnet assignment. She'd made a few changes, including "Nor any tube for men about to sink," which I thought rather brilliant. When I confronted her, she first said she'd written it in the waiting room while her mother was dying. I pointed out that it was in our anthology. No response. Awhile later I got a phone call from her saying that actually her sister had written it. Now this second excuse may well have been true, and I have had many jollies thinking about the confrontation between the two that evening. That was when I decided to have all of my students sign and return a statement at the beginning of the semester that acknowledged that any act of plagiarism would result in an F in the course. Even with that, I've had a couple since. They're never very hard to track down, of course. Just Google a sentence or so and it'll come up on one of those "free" papers sites (most students are too cheap to actually pay for a paper). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/ee302d23/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sat May 9 19:52:27 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090509195203.039fc1e8@earthlink.net> This are hysterical. Thanks. At 06:02 PM 5/9/2009, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/9/2009 4:10:06 PM Central >Daylight Time, grahamd@ripon.edu writes: >> >>A pretty standard assignment for my intro >>classes is to do an analysis of a poem first >>published in the past 3 years. In part I do >>this because, over the years, I got so heartily >>tired of reading essays on "To An Athlete Dying >>Young" and "The Raven." In part I do it so >>that students get a tiny bit of experience in >>doing some research, discovering in the process >>that there are contemporary poets they might >>enjoy. And one side benefit: it almost >>entirely cuts out the chance of them turning in plagiarized essays. > > >I have my students write two 500-word book >reviews of books published in the last 25 years >or so; they give brief oral presentations on the >books. They also have two recitations of poems >from the anthology (mine, of course) or poems at >least 14 lines long. In my beginning class this >semester I gave a total of ten assignments, >ranging from free verse narratives, ballads, >rap, blank verse monologues, sonnets, and >repeating forms. I also give five-question >reading quizzes over poems assigned as examples; >we used the new (6th) edition of Poetry: A >Pocket Anthology and John Whitworth's Writing >Poetry. I generally switch the second book >around and have also had success with Stephen >Fry's The Ode Less Travelled and a couple of >others. This was an exceptionally good class, >and I've gone back to the practice of having >them present their poems from the front of the >class. There is no final exam, but they are >bringing poems--any size, any shape, any >genre--to the final. I also suggested that they >try to write, just for fun, really bad poems as >well, just to show that maybe they've learned >the difference between bad and good. I gave >them a couple that I'd recently entered in a bad poem competition as examples: > >The Pain in My Heart > >I was looking for something in the garage >And I found your dusty golf-cart. >Your old putter leans in the corner >Like this lonely pain in my heart. > >In the closet your shirts still hang >Like a memory that will not depart. >Some of them have long collars like >This longstanding pain in my heart. > >In the drawer I found a metal bracket >That must be a spare part >To something. It reminded me >Of your loss, this pain in my heart. > >Wherever I look in the house >I feel love's wounding dart, >And it hurts me as sorely as >Angina, the pain in my heart. > >The Road of Life > >The road of life is like a river >That runs down to the sea. >It forks and twists and tumbles >And is not straight, you see. > >Those who wander down it >Must wade in to their knees >And make an uphill journey >As slowly as they please. > >They must follow its direction signs >And stop at every light. >The current is against them > >From early morn ???til night. > >When they reach its beginning, >Its pure and lofty source, >The road of life has ended >And they are home, of course. > >The advanced poetry course in the fall retains >the recitation and review requirements, but >otherwise it's strictly a workshop. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/ab5961cf/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Sat May 9 20:02:40 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> References: <50852.75.161.57.47.1241897796.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu><4A05FC98.7050509@nut-n-but.net> <6AEDB015-BBEA-46B6-88EA-4158CB606199@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CB9F19C4EEABC3-A6C-38BF@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> I like this idea. Might start using it in my classes too instead of just saying over and over, "You should read the stuff being published today." -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 5:09 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey A pretty standard assignment for my intro classes is to do an analysis of a poem first published in the past 3 years. ?In part I do this because, over the years, I got so heartily tired of reading essays on "To An Athlete Dying Young" and "The Raven." ?In part I do it so that students get a tiny bit of experience in doing some research, discovering in the process that there are contemporary poets they might enjoy. ?And one side benefit: ?it almost entirely cuts out the chance of them turning in plagiarized essays. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 9, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: I'd be curious who the best students wrote about, and/or what the oddest choices were.? I would think the best would choose poets not covered , or much more than named, in any of his literature courses. Hmmm, just thought of a topic I as a teacher might assign: write an essay on some poet you like but doubt anyone else knows much about, and say why you like him, providing a sample poem with your commentary on it.? Any of you teachers done anything like that? Ought-oh, I'm on a roll.? How about assigning a class to write an essay on a poem they've been made to read in college they consider the pits, saying why.? Would that be legal? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/80999016/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Sat May 9 20:06:14 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> In my argument based research class (I'm still trying to figure out how I got stuck with this one) I give an MLA exam early on and I hcange some of the questions every semester. This spring one little dear submitted an exam with the answers to last semester's questions on it. -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In a message dated 5/9/2009 4:54:09 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd@ripon.edu writes: 'Tis the season for teachers to tell plagiarism &cheating stories. . . . Students keep coming up with new ways to amaze, it seems.? Couple years back I had a paper turned in, and the student didn't even bother to change the header.? There it was:? another course number, a different professor's name, and a date from the previous year. Which raises the perennial question of whether some students read their own papers, much less proofread them.... I had a creative writing student turn in Millay's "Love Is Not All" for a sonnet assignment.? She'd made a few changes, including "Nor any tube for men about to sink," which I thought rather brilliant. When I confronted her, she first said she'd written it in the waiting room while her mother was dying.? I pointed out that it was in our anthology.? No response.? Awhile later I got a phone call from her saying that actually her sister had written it.? Now this second excuse may well have been true, and I have had many jollies thinking about the confrontation between the two that evening. That was when I decided to have all of my students sign and return a statement at the beginning of the semester that acknowledged that any act of plagiarism would result in an F in the course.? Even with that, I've had a couple since.? They're never very hard to track down, of course.? Just Google a sentence or so and it'll come up on one of those "free" papers sites (most students are too cheap to actually pay for a paper). _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/023dd603/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 9 22:07:44 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A. J. Kennedy Poem in Free Lunch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A0636F0.9040503@nut-n-but.net> I've been getting copies of Free Lunch for years. It's a magazine going out free to anyone editor Ron Offen considers a serious poet, which could be anyone since it includes me. The latest issue includes quite a few pretty good poems, many from name poets like Dick Allen, Billy Collins, David Wagoner, Ron Koertge, Lyn Lifshin and X. J. Kennedy. Whether you like their poems or not, seems to me they should be commended for contributing to /Free Lunch./ Kennedy's poem, though conventional (as are all the poems in /Free Lunch/), is right up my alley. I quote it as a follow-up to Sam's hilarious two bad poems. ADVICE FROM A PRO "In poetry it's gravity Knocks 'em dead," said Mimi Kavity In the Kaiserplatz Cafe As the waiter ran out To fetch more Guinness stout. "Take my /Rehearsal of Cormorants/, Been good for five grants. You screwed up bad, you dork," (Stabbing with fork Her truffle salad) "Writing that silly ballad. These are serious days And it's seriousness that pays. Now there's my 'Abortion In the Deep Freeze'-- Has a marvelous start: 'Hunched in your plastic bag, You have my eyes, I see.' Jeez Christmas now, that's art. Be important. Speak To Everyslob. Technique Went out with Tennyson. Why polish? That's artsy-fartsy. Keep it rough, Keep telling how it's tough To be human. And screw rhyme. Who's got time? Whatever you do No epigrams, no Light stuff. Plenty of sensual words Like blood, shit, tits, turds. Throw in heavy themes And write, write, write reams. The future can figure out which To keep or ditch." She gave a shout, "Herr Ober! Where's that fucking stout!" --Bob I vowed to make my work intensely sober. / / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090509/ea9749e1/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Sat May 9 21:35:36 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A. J. Kennedy Poem in Free Lunch In-Reply-To: <4A0636F0.9040503@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A0636F0.9040503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6768ac830905091835x2f49c1d9vc7869a2ccd377d92@mail.gmail.com> I want to be X J Kennedy when I grow up. I've loved his poems for years - "First Confession" ends Where Sunday in seraphic light I knelt, as full of grace as most, And stuck my tongue out at the priest: A fresh roost for the Holy Ghost. That's after bribing his girl to pee, "That I might spy her instruments." On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I've been getting copies of Free Lunch for years.? It's a magazine going out > free to anyone editor Ron Offen considers a serious poet, which could be > anyone since it includes me.? The latest issue includes quite a few pretty > good poems, many from name poets like Dick Allen, Billy Collins, David > Wagoner, Ron Koertge, Lyn Lifshin and X. J. Kennedy.? Whether you like their > poems or not, seems to me they should be commended for contributing to Free > Lunch. > > Kennedy's poem, though conventional (as are all the poems in Free Lunch), is > right up my alley.? I quote it as a follow-up to Sam's hilarious two bad > poems. > > ADVICE FROM A PRO > > "In poetry it's gravity > Knocks 'em dead," said Mimi Kavity > In the Kaiserplatz Cafe > As the waiter ran out > To fetch more Guinness stout. > "Take my Rehearsal of Cormorants, > Been good for five grants. > You screwed up bad, you dork," > (Stabbing with fork > Her truffle salad) > "Writing that silly ballad. > These are serious days > And it's seriousness that pays. > Now there's my 'Abortion > In the Deep Freeze'-- > Has a marvelous start: > 'Hunched in your plastic bag, > You have my eyes, I see.' > Jeez Christmas now, that's art. > Be important.? Speak > To Everyslob.? Technique > Went out with Tennyson.? Why polish? > That's artsy-fartsy.? Keep it rough, > Keep telling how it's tough > To be human.? And screw rhyme. > Who's got time? > Whatever you do > No epigrams, no > Light stuff.? Plenty of sensual words > Like blood, shit, tits, turds. > Throw in heavy themes > And write, write, write reams. > The future can figure out which > To keep or ditch." > She gave a shout, > "Herr Ober! > Where's that fucking stout!" > > --Bob > > I vowed to make my work intensely sober. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 9 23:14:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A. J. Kennedy Poem in Free Lunch--corrected In-Reply-To: <6768ac830905091835x2f49c1d9vc7869a2ccd377d92@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A0636F0.9040503@nut-n-but.net> <6768ac830905091835x2f49c1d9vc7869a2ccd377d92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0646B1.4090102@nut-n-but.net> Michael Snider wrote: > I want to be X J Kennedy when I grow up. I've loved his poems for > years - "First Confession" ends > > Where Sunday in seraphic light > I knelt, as full of grace as most, > And stuck my tongue out at the priest: > A fresh roost for the Holy Ghost. > > > > That's after bribing his girl to pee, "That I might spy her instruments." > Yeah, he's done some dandies. Corrected version of his poem below (I stuck my signature in the wrong place: >> ADVICE FROM A PRO >> >> "In poetry it's gravity >> Knocks 'em dead," said Mimi Kavity >> In the Kaiserplatz Cafe >> As the waiter ran out >> To fetch more Guinness stout. >> "Take my Rehearsal of Cormorants, >> Been good for five grants. >> You screwed up bad, you dork," >> (Stabbing with fork >> Her truffle salad) >> "Writing that silly ballad. >> These are serious days >> And it's seriousness that pays. >> Now there's my 'Abortion >> In the Deep Freeze'-- >> Has a marvelous start: >> 'Hunched in your plastic bag, >> You have my eyes, I see.' >> Jeez Christmas now, that's art. >> Be important. Speak >> To Everyslob. Technique >> Went out with Tennyson. Why polish? >> That's artsy-fartsy. Keep it rough, >> Keep telling how it's tough >> To be human. And screw rhyme. >> Who's got time? >> Whatever you do >> No epigrams, no >> Light stuff. Plenty of sensual words >> Like blood, shit, tits, turds. >> Throw in heavy themes >> And write, write, write reams. >> The future can figure out which >> To keep or ditch." >> She gave a shout, >> "Herr Ober! >> Where's that fucking stout!" >> >> I vowed to make my work intensely sober. >> >> --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:53:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> References: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905100053v5b44ac69ufa6909417f4d2ea7@mail.gmail.com> This gives me the shivers, not specifically what Al Maginnes writes, but the entire story on plagiarism. My high school students do the same and I inevitably compare them with me when I was their age. I would have been terrified to do something like that, not only, such an attitude shows me a complete lack of pride. Some so-called contemporary poets also recycle and steal wherever and whenever they can, and _really/fundamentally_ what is it worth? What for? To impress ___me___??? Don't they have a little soul somewhere that tells them they are not learning anything /progressing/devolping? They are stuck in their little black putrid ditch of ignorance. On the other hand, and going back to school, with the teachers they sometimes have, what can you expect from those students ... I usually read in class a paper published by a university: http://www.google.it/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=w33&ei=C4YGSsWmFsjDsgbT4qWsCA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=plagiarism+university+of&spell=1 but the idea of having them sign a statement where they will receive a 2 (our evaluation goes from 1 to 10) could be a good idea. I will have to keep it in mind at the beginning of next year. On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 2:06 AM, wrote: > In my argument based research class (I'm still trying to figure out how I > got stuck with this one) I give an MLA exam early on and I hcange some of > the questions every semester. This spring one little dear submitted an exam > with the answers to last semester's questions on it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 6:09 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey > > In a message dated 5/9/2009 4:54:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > grahamd@ripon.edu writes: > > > > 'Tis the season for teachers to tell plagiarism &cheating stories. . . . > > Students keep coming up with new ways to amaze, it seems. Couple years > back I had a paper turned in, and the student didn't even bother to change > the header. There it was: another course number, a different professor's > name, and a date from the previous year. > > > Which raises the perennial question of whether some students read their own > papers, much less proofread them.... > > > > > > I had a creative writing student turn in Millay's "Love Is Not All" for a > sonnet assignment. She'd made a few changes, including "Nor any *tube*for men about to sink," which I thought rather brilliant. When I confronted > her, she first said she'd written it in the waiting room while her mother > was dying. I pointed out that it was in our anthology. No response. > Awhile later I got a phone call from her saying that actually her *sister*had written it. Now this second excuse may well have been true, and I have > had many jollies thinking about the confrontation between the two that > evening. > > That was when I decided to have *all* of my students sign and return a > statement at the beginning of the semester that acknowledged that *any*act of plagiarism would result in an F in the course. Even with that, I've > had a couple since. They're never very hard to track down, of course. Just > Google a sentence or so and it'll come up on one of those "free" papers > sites (most students are too cheap to actually *pay* for a paper). > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > *The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/485495c5/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 09:13:45 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905100053v5b44ac69ufa6909417f4d2ea7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905100053v5b44ac69ufa6909417f4d2ea7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A06D309.2010202@nut-n-but.net> But, Anny, what is formal education except compulsory plagiarism? The teacher says ABC, and the pupil writes ABC. Or, in the few best classes, applies ABC. My attitude is pretty horrible. It is that if you have the . . . wrong genes, like I do, you--well, compose mathematical poems, after going your own failing way through school. If you don't, then you produce ABCs all your life. Bad Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 09:50:14 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><6768ac830905060555q42433fe4k724c1c1f6f91bd05@mail.gmail .com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Who gets to say what ISN'T art? --Bob G. From halvard at gmail.com Sun May 10 10:20:14 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Anyone (unlike Duchamp) without a sense of humor. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: Halvard Johnson wrote: "Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Who gets to say what ISN'T art? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/b3781362/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun May 10 10:29:11 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge Message-ID: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6256746.ece The Sunday TimesMay 10, 2009 Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge The dossier recounts a sexual harassment claim against Walcott, 79, when he taught at Harvard in the 1980s. The poet was reprimanded following the allegation that he tried to pressure a female student into sleeping with him. Another harassment claim against Walcott dating from 1996 has also reemerged, sparking a heated debate at Oxford. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/5f4f7bb1/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 10 11:05:49 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> Not a lovely portrait of a person contending for a Very Political and Academic appointment. More's the pity for this uncareful apparently sexist poet whose work is stellar. Judy 2009/5/10 > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6256746.ece > The Sunday TimesMay 10, 2009 > Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge > > The dossier recounts a sexual harassment claim against Walcott, 79, when he > taught at Harvard in the 1980s. > > The poet was reprimanded following the allegation that he tried to pressure > a female student into sleeping with him. > > Another harassment claim against Walcott dating from 1996 has also > reemerged, sparking a heated debate at Oxford. > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/8432a3dd/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun May 10 12:04:16 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090510115839.03b36528@earthlink.net> What's shocking to me is that he's been nominated. Not a particularly interesting poet, despite all the ballyhoo. The powerful ratifying the powerful. Since the university's interest in the appointment is its own prestige, I'd expect that the appointment's in trouble. Mark At 11:05 AM 5/10/2009, you wrote: >Not a lovely portrait of a person contending for >a Very Political and Academic appointment. >? More's the pity for this uncareful apparently >sexist poet whose work is stellar. > >Judy > >2009/5/10 <jforjames@aol.com> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6256746.ece >The Sunday TimesMay 10, 2009 >Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge > >The dossier recounts a sexual harassment claim >against Walcott, 79, when he taught at Harvard in the 1980s. > >The poet was reprimanded following the >allegation that he tried to pressure a female student into sleeping with him. > >Another harassment claim against Walcott dating >from 1996 has also reemerged, sparking a heated debate at Oxford. > > >---------- >A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. >See >yours in just 2 easy steps! > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/3f035f44/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 10 12:05:18 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1564AD6A-78E5-4AA4-879C-E83A1C3BCC2B@ripon.edu> No comment on the merits of the Walcott case(s), but I do hope that, with the passing of that generation of professors, this sort of teacherly exploitation of students may finally grow less common, and certainly less routinely winked-at. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/756fa43c/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 16:18:47 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org><4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Anyone (unlike Duchamp) without a sense of humor. > > > Hal Okay, Hal, let's not ask Duchamp (whom I know was mostly jester though I am not sure his biggest joke wasn't that he was an artist underneath the camouflage) who gets to say what is not art but all those who take what he said seriously, and there are a good many of them. (By the way, my blog with your Ives poem in it got twice as many visits as any of my other recent blogs--almost twenty people!) --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 10 15:22:36 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr511f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com> ok hurry up and give us your blog link, Bob. I wanna read this Halvardian Personpiece! Judy 2009/5/10 Bob Grumman > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> >> Anyone (unlike Duchamp) without a sense of humor. >> >> >> Hal >> > Okay, Hal, let's not ask Duchamp (whom I know was mostly jester though I am > not sure his biggest joke wasn't that he was an artist underneath the > camouflage) who gets to say what is not art but all those who take what he > said seriously, and there are a good many of them. > (By the way, my blog with your Ives poem in it got twice as many visits as > any of my other recent blogs--almost twenty people!) > > --Bob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/2587e839/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 16:33:30 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <1564AD6A-78E5-4AA4-879C-E83A1C3BCC2B@ripon.edu> References: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> <1564AD6A-78E5-4AA4-879C-E83A1C3BCC2B@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A073A1A.2090406@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > No comment on the merits of the Walcott case(s), but I do hope that, > with the passing of that generation of professors, this sort of > teacherly exploitation of students may finally grow less common, and > certainly less routinely winked-at. I tend to suspect that human nature will prevent that--or the mirror defect of opportunistic students using sex to get grades, or lies to get civil court awards. But I may be biased since my maternal grandfather married a girl in the high school class he taught (before becoming a doctor). --Bob G. From halvard at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:15:30 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Hey, that's cool (the Ives part)--even without smearing it with Alpo, eh? Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> >> Anyone (unlike Duchamp) without a sense of humor. >> >> >> Hal >> > Okay, Hal, let's not ask Duchamp (whom I know was mostly jester though I am > not sure his biggest joke wasn't that he was an artist underneath the > camouflage) who gets to say what is not art but all those who take what he > said seriously, and there are a good many of them. > (By the way, my blog with your Ives poem in it got twice as many visits as > any of my other recent blogs--almost twenty people!) > > --Bob > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/255a13ca/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun May 10 16:39:01 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge Message-ID: In a message dated 5/10/2009 2:34:02 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net writes: > > But I may be biased since my maternal grandfather married a girl in the > high school class he taught (before becoming a doctor). > > --Bob G. > > This was not uncommon in an earlier day'; it happened with one of my high school teachers, and they are still wed. Cultural norms have shifted in some strange ways, haven't they/ There's a good dvd version of Mamet's Oleanna that takes up some of these issues, which are often more complex than they seem at first glance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/eb8b4de8/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 10 17:18:33 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <4A06D309.2010202@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> <4b65c2d70905100053v5b44ac69ufa6909417f4d2ea7@mail.gmail.com> <4A06D309.2010202@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > But, Anny, what is formal education except compulsory plagiarism? ?The > teacher says ABC, and the pupil writes ABC. ?Or, in the few best classes, > applies ABC. But does it have to be that way? Sometimes I don't think so, or I wouldn't make it in my work in higher ed... but much of the time I feel just this way. And the sad part is that's what many teachers, students and administration alike want. The plagiarism issue has deep roots, though. And I know David G will likely accuse me of golden age-ism in believing that it's worse now, but I believe it is, if only because it's so much easier to follow up on the impulse than it once was. I'm more concerned, though, with the re-use and re-cycling and remixing as art forms. Not because I disagree that they are, but because along with a lot of other trends it is coming (to some degree) at the expense of the kind of making that demands sustained, deep attention. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 18:23:16 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr511f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net><4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr511f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > ok hurry up and give us your blog link, Bob. I wanna read this > Halvardian Personpiece! > > Judy Hey, Judy, Hal posted the thing here--and later I posted it at my blog and gave the link here. For not paying attention, you're going to have to do a search for it. My blog is called "po-X-cetera." The entry date would be sometime around a week ago. (Ha ha, that means you may accidentally see some of my other entries while hunting for it.) --Bob From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun May 10 17:39:24 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com> <4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net> <4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr511f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com> <4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> Sounds a bit like professional jealousy, Bob, rather than Judy-punishment. Post the relevant portion of your blog, then, and let us see how magnanimous you are. Best, yoo know hoo 2009/5/10 Bob Grumman > Judy Prince wrote: > >> ok hurry up and give us your blog link, Bob. I wanna read this Halvardian >> Personpiece! >> >> Judy >> > Hey, Judy, Hal posted the thing here--and later I posted it at my blog and > gave the link here. For not paying attention, you're going to have to do a > search for it. My blog is called "po-X-cetera." The entry date would be > sometime around a week ago. (Ha ha, that means you may accidentally see > some of my other entries while hunting for it.) > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090510/e3bda36d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 18:51:33 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: References: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com><4b65c2d70905100053v5b44ac69ufa69094 17f4d2ea7@mail.gmail.com><4A06D309.2010202@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A075A75.4070801@nut-n-but.net> > I'm more concerned, though, with the re-use and re-cycling and > remixing as art forms. Not because I disagree that they are, but > because along with a lot of other trends it is coming (to some degree) > at the expense of the kind of making that demands sustained, deep > attention. > > c > Haw, I just recycled a Shakespeare sonnet. Think of all the variations in music by the best composers. All art is recycling. I sympathize with your complaint, Chris, but it reduces to the age-old complaint that too many in any discipline are too lazy or untalented to try to do anything demanding. --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 19:01:27 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SILKEN TENT scanned In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org> <4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but.net><4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net><7 db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr511f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com><4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A075CC7.2080908@nut-n-but.net> Hey, I just posted Hal's poem, Judy, and said who wrote it, where I got it and that I liked it. I think I said that anyone familiar with Ives's music should like it. I'm really busy and my computer seems to be dying, probably of over-eating, so it's a bit of a nuisance for me to find the blog entry and re-post. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 10 18:02:18 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my unofficial survey In-Reply-To: <4A075A75.4070801@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CB9F1A44C1D492-A6C-38D0@WEBMAIL-DG13.sim.aol.com> <4A06D309.2010202@nut-n-but.net> <4A075A75.4070801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: The argument might reduce to that, but isn't the same as what I am suggesting. That's the problem with reductions-- they very rarely resemble or have much in common with what they are reduced from. Like compost. It can be useful in the right context, but I won't be eating it. Like I said, I'm not in any way against recycling and remixing-- in fact I promote it heavily when wearing my professional hat, and defend it against those who claim there is no art there-- but in the same way that technology facilitates plagiarism (but doesn't cause it), the technology of remix enables a shallow kind of engagement that often comes at the expense of going "deep." A trend I find lamentable. There can be an artistry in remixing and riffing, but the mere presence of that technique doesn't necessarily mean the artistry is there. c On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> I'm more concerned, though, with the re-use and re-cycling and >> remixing as art forms. Not because I disagree that they are, but >> because along with a lot of other trends it is coming (to some degree) >> at the expense of the kind of making that demands sustained, deep >> attention. >> >> c >> > > Haw, I just recycled a Shakespeare sonnet. ?Think of all the variations in > music by the best composers. ?All art is recycling. ?I sympathize with your > complaint, Chris, but it reduces to the age-old complaint that too many in > any discipline are too lazy or untalented to try to do anything demanding. > > --Bob > > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 21:20:56 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Facebook In-Reply-To: <4A075CC7.2080908@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org><4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but .net><4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr5 11f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com><4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> <4A075CC7.2080908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A077D78.3000906@nut-n-but.net> I finally got around to signing onto Facebook. But I think I screwed up. I was clicking people I thought I knew thinking that was the way to accept them as facebook friends, but now believe I was rejecting them. So, no offense intended if this means people will get notices saying I screened them off my facebook list, or I'm not on their list, or whatever happens. Eventually, I accepted all the people I didn't know, after all--but the ones I really wanted on my list, New-Poetry people, mainly, were gone. Who knows, maybe that meant I'd accepted them after all. These here new-fangled things! --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun May 10 20:28:32 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Facebook In-Reply-To: <4A077D78.3000906@nut-n-but.net> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org><4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but .net><4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr5 11f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com><4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> <4A075CC7.2080908@nut-n-but.net> <4A077D78.3000906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A077130.2000207@opus40.org> I accepted your invite. So we're connected. Bob Grumman wrote: > I finally got around to signing onto Facebook. But I think I screwed > up. I was clicking people I thought I knew thinking that was the way > to accept them as facebook friends, but now believe I was rejecting > them. So, no offense intended if this means people will get notices > saying I screened them off my facebook list, or I'm not on their list, > or whatever happens. > > Eventually, I accepted all the people I didn't know, after all--but > the ones I really wanted on my list, New-Poetry people, mainly, were > gone. Who knows, maybe that meant I'd accepted them after all. > > > These here new-fangled things! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 10 23:37:41 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Facebook In-Reply-To: <4A077130.2000207@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0905060036u7dad8324la2b39d25220e2b16@mail.gmail.com><4A019741.9030707@opus40.org><4A06DB96.7060807@nut-n-but .net><4A0736A7.1040107@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101222r1afbbc5fr5 11f86579934a4d7@mail.gmail.com><4A0753D4.9080002@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0905101439l3fbe23a9p131248d3ddb4152a@mail.gmail.com> <4A075CC7.2080908@nut-n-but.net><4A077D78.3000906@nut-n-but.net> <4A077130.2000207@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A079D85.7000302@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > I accepted your invite. So we're connected. > Aw, Mole, we wuz alwuz connected, however peculyorly. --Bob From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:34:41 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am looking forward to the day when this kind of behavior is no longer winked at or indulged just because the man in question is Mr. Famous Poet who is accustomed to having everyone kiss up to his reputation and thinks it is his privilege to have his fun at the expense of his students. I'd find it refreshing if Oxford could have the cajunas just say "no" to Derek Walcott-- seriously, I think it would be good for him to hear someone say "no" and have that be final. I honestly don't think his situation is remotely comparable to a teacher falling in love with and marrying a student. Walcott really was notorious for specifically this kind of ongoing bullying. Sorry to sound axe grindy. I'm tired of having to be "polite" about these issues and I am sick to death of people who throw around the "Oh we must not cave into political correctness!" argument to completely shut down discussion anytime someone tries to bring up the other point of view and do something about this shit for a change. Its oppressive and it silences people. This crap truly makes me furious. Suzanne On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 4:39 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2009 2:34:02 PM Central Daylight Time, > bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net writes: > > > But I may be biased since my maternal grandfather married a girl in the > high school class he taught (before becoming a doctor). > > --Bob G. > > > This was not uncommon in an earlier day'; it happened with one of my high > school teachers, and they are still wed. Cultural norms have shifted in some > strange ways, haven't they/ There's a good dvd version of Mamet's * > Oleanna* that takes up some of these issues, which are often more complex > than they seem at first glance. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/34b9e78e/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Mon May 11 09:32:46 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090510115839.03b36528@earthlink.net> References: <8CB9F92D2597BA0-1220-46A9@webmail-md04.sysops.aol.com><7db1d01b0905100805w7c22d759r25a7300e69537d78@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20090510115839.03b36528@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CBA0541AADF0A2-1748-5EDB@WEBMAIL-DC16.sysops.aol.com> This is hardly news. My grudge against Walcott stems from his visit to Fayetteville Arkansas in the mid 80s. After acting like a total shit to everyone, he left and wrote a poem called "The Arkansas Testament" in which he basically accused everyone in Fayetteville of racism. Not true from anything I saw. Al -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge What's shocking to me is that he's been nominated. Not a particularly interesting poet, despite all the ballyhoo. The powerful ratifying the powerful. Since the university's interest in the appointment is its own prestige, I'd expect that the appointment's in trouble. Mark At 11:05 AM 5/10/2009, you wrote: Not a lovely portrait of a person contending for a Very Political and Academic appointment. ?? More's the pity for this uncareful apparently sexist poet whose work is stellar. Judy 2009/5/10 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6256746.ece The Sunday TimesMay 10, 2009 Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge The dossier recounts a sexual harassment claim against Walcott, 79, when he taught at Harvard in the 1980s. The poet was reprimanded following the allegation that he tried to pressure a female student into sleeping with him. Another harassment claim against Walcott dating from 1996 has also reemerged, sparking a heated debate at Oxford. A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/9447d317/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 11 13:12:06 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cats & Bulldogs Message-ID: <8CBA072BEC338F6-15FC-BA1@mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com> http://www.cprw.com/Misc/cats.htm The true low point of the evening was the response of the speakers to a prompt regarding the poetry critics? role as gatekeeper. McLane immediately denied the authority, as might be expected. Burt argued that critics were ?really like a cat??an outdoor cat, he noted?who brings odds and ends, dead birds, mice, etc., to the back door as if to say, ?Look what I found!? Kirsch opined then, ?But sometimes critics have to be like a bulldog.? (A review of ?Critical Contexts,? a roundtable on contemporary poetry criticism hosted by the Woodberry Poetry Room at Harvard University on Monday, March 30th, 2009. ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/d70bed1d/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 11 20:52:58 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile Message-ID: <8CBA0B320E7608A-96C-20D2@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Kleinzahler relishes the lingo of Mob barbarism. "Anastasia got whacked because he was too dangerous," he writes. "The Gallo brothers made the hit." When big brother first relays the details of his doomed embezzlement scam, the poet reacts with pleasure at seeing him "so cheerful and excited". Kleinzahler himself has gained the reputation of someone willing to "hit" potential rivals in the poetry racket (read more) http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/apr/18/august-kleinzahler-poetry-interview -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/e00b0797/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Mon May 11 21:01:59 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: <8CBA0B320E7608A-96C-20D2@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA0B320E7608A-96C-20D2@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBA0B46335F6F4-878-35FF@Webmail-mg16.sim.aol.com> What a badass. He terrifies me, just terrifies me. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 8:52 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile Kleinzahler relishes the lingo of Mob barbarism. "Anastasia got whacked because he was too dangerous," he writes. "The Gallo brothers made the hit." When big brother first relays the details of his doomed embezzlement scam, the poet reacts with pleasure at seeing him "so cheerful and excited". Kleinzahler himself has gained the reputation of someone willing to "hit" potential rivals in the poetry racket (read more) http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/apr/18/august-kleinzahler-poetry-interview A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/bc4de1b3/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 11 21:17:21 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile Message-ID: Poetry thugs. Franz Wright, et al. Bukowski. Corso. Dickey. It always generates the pub. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/b471afa9/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 11 21:27:18 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> The article does address this issue, incidentally: "Others have wondered whether Kleinzahler, whose father worked in real estate and sent his son to the elite Horace Mann school in New York, assumes a bad-boy mask shaped for the authentically pock-marked features of Charles Bukowski or Gregory Corso. To Kirsch, the 'roughneck persona' 'appears to be 'the product of a persistent American neurosis about poetry and art being unmasculine. To compensate for their presumed loss of masculine status, certain writers make alcohol and fighting part of their literary persona.' " ------------------ For my money, Kleinzahler's a frequently excellent poet, though one I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care for in person--to judge by his interviews, reviews, essays, etc. Not that that combination is such a rarity, of course. I'm fairly certain I would have hated Miles Davis if I'd ever crossed his path. . . . In any case, all the "thug" blather does tend to obscure what a varied, often delicate lyricist he can be. Uneven, in my view, but that's hardly a deal breaker: so was Whitman. I'd say that, like W. C. Williams or Robert Frost, to pick two obvious examples, the public persona Kleinzahler presents is less interesting than the poems themselves. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 11, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: > Poetry thugs. Franz Wright, et al. Bukowski. Corso. Dickey. It > always generates the pub. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/2891f6b2/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 11 21:34:16 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> References: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CBA0B8E5D04AE9-96C-22AD@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Charles Ives too was obsessed with possibilty of an effete (or sissy, as he might say)?quality creeping into his music. So at times compensated with dissonant ompahpah bombast. Finnegan The article does address this issue, incidentally: "Others have wondered whether Kleinzahler, whose father worked in real estate and sent his son to the elite Horace Mann school in New York, assumes a bad-boy mask shaped for the authentically pock-marked features of Charles Bukowski or Gregory Corso. To Kirsch, the 'roughneck persona' 'appears to be 'the product of a persistent American neurosis about poetry and art being unmasculine. To compensate for their presumed loss of masculine status, certain writers make alcohol and fighting part of their literary persona.' " ------------------ -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 9:27 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile The article does address this issue, incidentally: "Others have wondered whether Kleinzahler, whose father worked in real estate and sent his son to the elite Horace Mann school in New York, assumes a bad-boy mask shaped for the authentically pock-marked features of Charles Bukowski or Gregory Corso. To Kirsch, the 'roughneck persona' 'appears to be 'the product of a persistent American neurosis about poetry and art being unmasculine. To compensate for their presumed loss of masculine status, certain writers make alcohol and fighting part of their literary persona.' " ------------------ For my money, Kleinzahler's a frequently excellent poet, though one I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care for in person--to judge by his interviews, reviews, essays, etc. Not that that combination is such a rarity, of course. ? I'm fairly certain I would have hated Miles Davis if I'd ever crossed his path. . . . In any case, all the "thug" blather does tend to obscure what a varied, often delicate lyricist he can be. ?Uneven, in my view, but that's hardly a deal breaker: ?so was Whitman. ? I'd say that, like W. C. Williams or Robert Frost, to pick two obvious examples, the public persona Kleinzahler presents is less interesting than the poems themselves.? ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On May 11, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: Poetry thugs.? Franz Wright, et al.? Bukowski.? Corso.? Dickey.? It always generates the pub. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/7bd4fdb4/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 11 23:00:46 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> Suzanne Burns wrote: > I am looking forward to the day when this kind of behavior is no > longer winked at or indulged just because the man in question is Mr. > Famous Poet who is accustomed to having everyone kiss up to his > reputation and thinks it is his privilege to have his fun at the > expense of his students. I'd find it refreshing if Oxford could have > the cajunas just say "no" to Derek Walcott-- seriously, I think it > would be good for him to hear someone say "no" and have that be final. > > I honestly don't think his situation is remotely comparable to a > teacher falling in love with and marrying a student. Walcott really > was notorious for specifically this kind of ongoing bullying. > > Sorry to sound axe grindy. I'm tired of having to be "polite" about > these issues and I am sick to death of people who throw around the "Oh > we must not cave into political correctness!" argument to completely > shut down discussion anytime someone tries to bring up the other point > of view and do something about this shit for a change. Its oppressive > and it silences people. This crap truly makes me furious. > > Suzanne Sounds to me you're the one trying to shut down conversation, Suzanne. There are two sides to every story. I don't know beans about Walcott except that he's a severely over-rated poet. I do know that there is a complex continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction and that it's rarely easy to fix blame, if blame is merited, in most portions of it. I further believe that whether Walcott gets the position should depend on his knowledge of poetry--unless he's a criminal. And now I'll really step into it--I doubt he's been guilty of anything but boorish behavior that any healthy woman should have been able to handle. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 11 22:26:34 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pro university press and journal Message-ID: <8CBA0C03455CAA0-96C-24E4@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> http://www.vqronline.org/blog/2009/05/09/the-future-of-university-presses-and-journals-a-manifesto/ University presidents need to see what articulate ambassadors they have in their journals and presses, what tangible, enduring records they present of the variety and vigor of their sponsoring institutions. University presses, for example, first published Eugene O?Neill?s Long Day?s Journey into Night (Yale), Eudora Welty?s One Writer?s Beginnings (Harvard), and James M. MacPherson?s Battle Cry of Freedom (Oxford). I identify these books so strongly with their presses and, by extension, their universities, that it is impossible for me to think of, say, A River Runs Through It without remembering Norman Maclean?s history with the University of Chicago or to re-read Rita Dove?s Thomas and Beulah without remembering how Gerald Costanzo, then a professor at Carnegie-Mellon, had hand-picked her for CMU Press to publish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/3561b275/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 11 22:29:53 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> References: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Kleinzahler has a long, long way to go before he earns the right to be an asshole that Miles Davis enjoyed... I picked up _Green Sees Things in Waves_ a long time ago, before Kleinzahler started puffing himself up with regularity. After that experience I was mystified when people started up with the acclaim. I still am. c From junction at earthlink.net Mon May 11 22:43:49 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20090511222230.039e2070@earthlink.net> I'm with Suzanne here. These incidents weren't about the "complex continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction," they were about a professor hitting on students over whom he had authority, and they've made their feelings about the events amply clear. At the very least he could have kept his fly zipped until they were no longer his students. Mark At 11:00 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote: >Suzanne Burns wrote: >>I am looking forward to the day when this kind of behavior is no >>longer winked at or indulged just because the man in question is >>Mr. Famous Poet who is accustomed to having everyone kiss up to his >>reputation and thinks it is his privilege to have his fun at the >>expense of his students. I'd find it refreshing if Oxford could >>have the cajunas just say "no" to Derek Walcott-- seriously, I >>think it would be good for him to hear someone say "no" and have that be final. >> >>I honestly don't think his situation is remotely comparable to a >>teacher falling in love with and marrying a student. Walcott >>really was notorious for specifically this kind of ongoing bullying. >>Sorry to sound axe grindy. I'm tired of having to be "polite" >>about these issues and I am sick to death of people who throw >>around the "Oh we must not cave into political correctness!" >>argument to completely shut down discussion anytime someone tries >>to bring up the other point of view and do something about this >>shit for a change. Its oppressive and it silences people. This >>crap truly makes me furious. >> >>Suzanne >Sounds to me you're the one trying to shut down conversation, Suzanne. >There are two sides to every story. I don't know beans about >Walcott except that he's a severely over-rated poet. I do know that >there is a complex continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction >and that it's rarely easy to fix blame, if blame is merited, in most >portions of it. >I further believe that whether Walcott gets the position should >depend on his knowledge of poetry--unless he's a criminal. And now >I'll really step into it--I doubt he's been guilty of anything but >boorish behavior that any healthy woman should have been able to handle. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Mon May 11 23:00:05 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CBA0C4E2E23BE6-96C-261F@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Bob, I don't' think any woman (healthy or unhealthy) should have to 'handle' sexual advances from someone in a superior position (as in teacher-student relationship). Sexual advances by a bosses toward lower-level employees often result in high-dollar?lawsuits in workplace environments. Corpoartions now buy Employment Practices Liability (EPL) insurance against the high-cost of these suits. Most boards?are less than?tolerant of bosses or managers, successful as?they may be in business matters, who trigger these kinds of lawsuits. If two adults in a working situation have feelings for one another, it's incumbent upon the one the superior position to take a step back and to get a few details squared away first. Starting with a meeting in front of a neutral third party whereby both parties assert to the third party their?mutual?feelings and both assert that nothing is being traded for sexual favors.?That conversation should be documented. Then, assuming there are no legal or institutional policies in the way of their relaitonship, they can go forth and act freely according to their desires. Finnegan, CPCU Risk Management Professional -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge Suzanne Burns wrote:? > I am looking forward to the day when this kind of behavior is no > longer winked at or indulged just because the man in question is Mr. > Famous Poet who is accustomed to having everyone kiss up to his > reputation and thinks it is his privilege to have his fun at the > expense of his students. I'd find it refreshing if Oxford could have > the cajunas just say "no" to Derek Walcott-- seriously, I think it > would be good for him to hear someone say "no" and have that be final.? >? > I honestly don't think his situation is remotely comparable to a > teacher falling in love with and marrying a student. Walcott really > was notorious for specifically this kind of ongoing bullying. >? > Sorry to sound axe grindy. I'm tired of having to be "polite" about > these issues and I am sick to death of people who throw around the "Oh > we must not cave into political correctness!" argument to completely > shut down discussion anytime someone tries to bring up the other point > of view and do something about this shit for a change. Its oppressive > and it silences people. This crap truly makes me furious.? >? > Suzanne? Sounds to me you're the one trying to shut down conversation, Suzanne. There are two sides to every story. I don't know beans about Walcott except that he's a severely over-rated poet. I do know that there is a complex continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction and that it's rarely easy to fix blame, if blame is merited, in most portions of it. I further believe that whether Walcott gets the position should depend on his knowledge of poetry--unless he's a criminal. And now I'll really step into it--I doubt he's been guilty of anything but boorish behavior that any healthy woman should have been able to handle.? ? --Bob? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090511/058b9a82/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 12 00:06:22 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A08F5BE.8020604@opus40.org> Don't forget Fearing -- "Rat-a-tat-tat/Said Louie's gat." Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: > Poetry thugs. Franz Wright, et al. Bukowski. Corso. Dickey. It > always generates the pub. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue May 12 02:11:55 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: <4A08F5BE.8020604@opus40.org> References: <4A08F5BE.8020604@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905112311g2c8bbe6ek793d03e62d3fa9e1@mail.gmail.com> If he thinks he is not a sissy posing with his big fat cat in his lap, white furniture, pastel color sofa... only because he is wearing an old man's hat... I anyhow did not know his family's history. On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 6:06 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > Don't forget Fearing -- "Rat-a-tat-tat/Said Louie's gat." > > Rsgwynn1@cs.com wrote: > >> Poetry thugs. Franz Wright, et al. Bukowski. Corso. Dickey. It always >> generates the pub. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/9e3bf6fa/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue May 12 03:29:39 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] French Dictionary Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905120029p26c2e4aam2257bf4a1c26bddb@mail.gmail.com> http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/c206c1d5/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 12 04:15:03 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20090511222230.039e2070@earthlink.net> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20090511222230.039e2070@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <70664E059A6B4F9DBEFA865357C8A388@RobinLaptopPC> What's not been mentioned in this thread is the way in which the attack on Walcott is part of an organised campaign, and not for the first time. Similar attacks surfaced in _The Chonicle of Higher Education_ in the wake of the award of the Nobel Prize to Walcott, and later when the suggestion emerged that he might deliver Obama's Inaugural Poem. The current campaign began with a bang towards the end of April when several hundred copies of a dossier were mailed out anonymously, mostly to Oxford academics but also to at least some newaspapers, since the first article which appeared, by John Walsh in the Independent on 28th April, clearly draws, though no mention is made of this, so much for journalistic integrity, on the dossier which contained photocopied pages from a work called _The Lecherous Professor_. The latest article on the issue is in the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/11/smear-walcott-oxford-professor-poetry. A more contextualised version of events, with bit of content which isn't noted in the restricted range of material drawn on in the way the issue is usually dealt with, can be found in Bruce King's biography of Walcott. The issue of sexual harassment per se isn't the only one here, and is difficult to engage with since the events have been overlaid by such a large amount of distortion, spin, exaggeration, and misreporting which begins as early as the original articles in the Harvard Crimson in 1982 which form the basis of the pages in _The Lecherous Professor_ which in turn ... Among other things, a fascinating example of the technique of Swiftboating. Robin Hamilton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 3:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge > I'm with Suzanne here. These incidents weren't about the "complex > continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction," they were about a > professor hitting on students over whom he had authority, and they've made > their feelings about the events amply clear. At the very least he could > have kept his fly zipped until they were no longer his students. > > Mark From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Tue May 12 04:17:25 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> >> Suzanne >> > Sounds to me you're the one trying to shut down conversation, Suzanne. > There are two sides to every story. Of course there are two sides to every story, Bob, and no I am not trying to shut down the conversation. I am responding specifically to the people at Oxford who have said they don't want to discuss this and have referred to this as political correctness or prudery at at work. I also happen to know this particular case well and the problem is precisely that it has not been discussed and it has been swept under the carpet for years because nobody in the academy wanted to step on Wolcott's Nobel-scented toes. It took one student who actually had herself wired so as to record the harassment to finally have this addressed as harassment and bring the matter to into the light; he *admitted* to the harassment and said it was just fine in his book. So please, discuss away, Bob! That is exactly my point. But please don't expect the other side that has kept silent for years to continue to keep silent, or complain that their speaking up is somehow the problem in the discussion. I'm just not following your logic there, and I fail to see how my expression of disgust really affects you. It's an inherently contentious subject, so yeah, if you bring it up people are going to have strong feelings. I fall on the side of expressing them. And please, for the sake of avoiding straw men only, don't compare apples to oranges. This isn't the case of a professor who married a student; I think it should be obvious that I am personally discussing the specific egregious case refrred to in the subject line. (If you really want to talk about professor's who marry students, I will agree with you there; if you want to say that therefore the subject of sexual harassment should not be addressed or dismiss thia case's importance, my response is "Huh? who's silencing who?") This is a professor who has been quite frankly famous for years for not just "bad behaviour" but bad behaviour that violates other peoples' rights. I'm not at all surprised that this is coming up. Cheers, Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/860799a1/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 12 05:26:52 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> From: Suzanne Burns << It took one student who actually had herself wired so as to record the harassment to finally have this addressed as harassment and bring the matter to into the light; he *admitted* to the harassment and said it was just fine in his book. >> Suzaanne, What evidence have you for the above statement? It sounds to me like a distorted version of the events at Harvard in 1981/82. Incidentally, Walcott *didn't" "admit" to "harassment" -- this is one of the earliest distortions to appear in the narrative. What he is said to have said (as recounted by an Assistant Dean of Harvard to the anonymous student who brought the complaint, who read the student's account of a conversation with Walcott to him over the telephone, of something which happened six months earlier) is to agree that the student's account of the conversation was accurate. Walcott seems (I say "seems", as we don't have his account of the events) to have agreed that the student's account of the conversation was correct. The student seems to have taken notes at the time, otherwise I find it difficult to understand the precise detail given of events and dialogue that far in the past, in her account. I doubt that Walcott took similar notes. Incidentally, another distortion, Walcott was never asked by Harvard to "write a letter of apology" (nor did he, as such a letter *would have been an admission of guilt). The student asked that Walcott be instructed to write her such a letter in her intial submission to the Harvard authorities, so the "letter of apology" features as part of the accusation, not of the judgement. When Walcott returned to his own faculty at Boston University after his time at Harvard, he offered to resign. His offer was turned down. << ... please don't expect the other side that has kept silent for years to continue to keep silent, or complain that their speaking up is somehow the problem in the discussion. >> The other side has hardly "kept silent", as a perfunctory Web search would indicate. The issue recurs all too frequently, and has been dealt with, with ever-increasing embellishments, since 1982. Indeed, the alleged "silence" over the matter is one of the tropes used by the Anonymous Students of Oxford. What is equally at issue is to what degree the narrative of Walcott-the-serial-sexual-predator is one which is deliberately constructed. I'd agree that some of the heat generated is because of the reluctance of many to accept at face value the version of events propounded by Walcott's detractors. I'm glad this discussion has come up, as the other side of the coin is that the actual factual basis of the Walcott Harassment Narrative is so rarely challenged. << But please don't expect the other side that has kept silent for years to continue to keep silent, or complain that their speaking up is somehow the problem in the discussion. >> See above. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 12 08:18:06 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <8CBA0C4E2E23BE6-96C-261F@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-bu t.net> <8CBA0C4E2E23BE6-96C-261F@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A0968FE.60503@nut-n-but.net> And we get a nation enslaved to the wishes of the hyer-offendable. Sorry, I don't like it. I'd prefer a free country where employees who don't like a boss or students who don't like a teacher go elsewhere. And that's all I'm going to say about it here. I'm worse about politics and religion than I am about poetics. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 12 07:22:24 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Walcott has now withdrawn from the election. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/12/walcott-oxford-poetry-professor So it goes ... Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 12 07:41:45 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net><55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: The final paragraph of the Guardian article, quoting Walcott: "What happened 20 years ago I have never commented upon and have never given my side of what happened," he said of the allegations. "That will continue to be the case." This has been Walcott's consistent stance, and look what happens. I really *do hope this issue doesn't stop here, and someone probes the details of this latest campaign, which included not just the anonymous circulation of pages photocopied from a book, but a (partially-disavowed) parallel campaign of a privately-circulated email that surfaced in a blog, originally with names included, but rapidly seeing the names removed at the request of one of the two people whose name was originally attached to the letter. It's pretty obvious that in Walcott's case, responding to smear tactics by a dignified silence doesn't work, and the only result will be that the next attack will be even more extreme. It will be interesting to see if the mainstream media devote as much attention to this side of the business as they've done to the accusations themselves. Some proper investigative journalism needed here, in my opinion. Robin Hamilton From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 12 08:46:38 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905120546m4663e302ied59d9e147247906@mail.gmail.com> It's not difficult to see that both sides have some merit in the Walcott situation: 1) Robin's perspective that Walcott hasn't been afforded, in effect, either due process or objective media representation, some of which may be because of his own motivations; and 2) re the 'smear' campaign: "It was an ethical campaign being conducted in an unethical way, and now it's had dire consequences," said Oxford English lecturer Peter D McDonald, one of Mehrotra's nominators alongside Amit Chaudhuri and Tariq Ali, of the smear campaign. "The people who are behind that campaign ought to reflect [on what they've done]."Best, Judy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/1656ee32/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue May 12 09:11:23 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net><55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A09757B.1020803@opus40.org> Good thing they never tried to give any honors to Dylan Thomas. Robin Hamilton wrote: > The final paragraph of the Guardian article, quoting Walcott: > > "What happened 20 years ago I have never commented upon and have never > given my side of what happened," he said of the allegations. "That > will continue to be the case." > > This has been Walcott's consistent stance, and look what happens. > > I really *do hope this issue doesn't stop here, and someone probes the > details of this latest campaign, which included not just the anonymous > circulation of pages photocopied from a book, but a > (partially-disavowed) parallel campaign of a privately-circulated > email that surfaced in a blog, originally with names included, but > rapidly seeing the names removed at the request of one of the two > people whose name was originally attached to the letter. > > It's pretty obvious that in Walcott's case, responding to smear > tactics by a dignified silence doesn't work, and the only result will > be that the next attack will be even more extreme. > > It will be interesting to see if the mainstream media devote as much > attention to this side of the business as they've done to the > accusations themselves. > > Some proper investigative journalism needed here, in my opinion. > > Robin Hamilton > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From editor at pavementsaw.org Tue May 12 09:14:13 2009 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge Message-ID: <438592.82607.qm@web45615.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Short poem Nice kitty, Auggie Kleinzahler. Mines fluffier. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:29:32 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Robin, If Walcott has not been afforded due process-- and you make a very convincing argument-- then I would agree with you that proper journalism is called for. I'd like to see that happen, and if I have been misled about any of the facts, then I would be happy to stand corrected. I think though that it is worth saying that one thing that adds gasoline to this fire are the years of institutions ignoring the issue because it is easy to do so. If we want to avoid these shit storms, one effective way to deal with it is to face the issue early on instead of sweeping the victims under the carpet. This was one reason why the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church reached such massive proportions-- years and years of nobody wanting to deal with the issue or question the authority of priests effectively turned it into a power keg. In the case of Walcott, the issue has been avoided for a very long time-- I live in Boston, and I have many friends who attended BU's program back when I was in my twenties, and have heard them talk about their experiences. It was a hostile environment for a lot of women. This was a situation that was allowed over the course of many years to get completely out of control. I am not willing to dismiss the people who have complained about his persistent advances-- or people who take issue with sexual harrassment in general-- as "hyper-offendable," nor do I feel that there only recourse should be to just to silently somewhere else. That is so offensive. Who exactly is "hyper-offendable" here? People have rights, and yes, sometimes you do have to risk offending someone by saying "That's enough. You can't treat people this way." A big part of the problem is that in the early stages, nobody wanted to risk offending Derek Walcott. If this changes, I think that's a good thing. *"What happened 20 years ago I have never commented upon and have never given my side of what happened," he said of the allegations. "That will continue to be the case." This has been Walcott's consistent stance, and look what happens.* I think there comes a point when it is time to say that it is time for him to talk about it, which might involve actiually reflecting on how other people feel, and the option of avoiding it maybe is no longer an option. This is the problem with privilege in general (whit privilege, male privilege, etc.) is that those who are on the privileged side often view it as their right to ignore the whole matter. Is that truly a right? Suzanne On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: > Walcott has now withdrawn from the election. > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/12/walcott-oxford-poetry-professor > > So it goes ... > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/23405a7e/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 12 14:05:14 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net><55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC><4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> Suzanne: First, I should say that I'm in agreement with you that sexual harassment should be treated seriously, and has been, probably still is, all too often brushed under the carpet. That said, snips will indicate that I think what you say is part of a larger (and perhaps different) issue rather than specific to Walcott, and not an attempt to ignore points you are making. "Robin, If Walcott has not been afforded due process-- and you make a very convincing argument-- then I would agree with you that proper journalism is called for. I'd like to see that happen, and if I have been misled about any of the facts, then I would be happy to stand corrected." Right away, we're up against a problem -- do you mean due process over the 1981 incident, or due process in the way this has been subsequently exploited? I have no way of knowing what actually happened in 1981 and 1982 at Harvard, but I can (which is admittedly easier) document how it has been increasingly distorted. Also, it's perhaps worth noting that at the time, the reaction of Walcott's colleagues at Boston was indignation that a mark he had awarded had been overturned, and the refusal, despite several letters, of the Harvard authorities to even discuss this. There's also the student who wrote to the Harvard Crimson at the time drawing attention to the fact that only two lecturers, both black, had ever been accused of sexual harassment in a predominantly white faculty, and suggesting that when accusations were made against a white lecturer, the students were leant on to withdraw them. And a writer to the New York Times who identified herself as a feminist, but nevertheless pointed out that allowing the complainant anonymity but publishing Walcott's name meant that he ended up smeared with no recourse. I'm not saying any of these reactions were right or wrong, but drawing attention to how what was even in 1982 an already complicated *set of issues has, over the course of time, been narrowed down to Walcott-the-Sexual-Predator. It would be nice to get even some of the original issues clear -- even what he was originally accused off, and what eventuated. Was he accused and convicted of sexual harassment, or was he admonished for improper conduct? It starts murky, and it gets murkier as time passes. "I think there comes a point when it is time to say that it is time for him to talk about it, which might involve actiually reflecting on how other people feel, and the option of avoiding it maybe is no longer an option. This is the problem with privilege in general (whit privilege, male privilege, etc.) is that those who are on the privileged side often view it as their right to ignore the whole matter. Is that truly a right?" I'm inclined to agree. But it's a bit late. Maybe at the time he should have made a stronger challenge. But then, as the Harvard Due Process then seemed to consist of confronting him with the accusations, noting his reply, passing the material upstairs for judgement and then passing the judgement back down, ex cathedra, it's difficult to see *how he could have challenged it other than (as he did) saying he disagreed. I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old Fury ... Robin From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue May 12 15:05:57 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] the graduate Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905121205pb01857fxf37838e62c03cfcc@mail.gmail.com> a moment of revival http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/05/11/movies/1194839868271/critics-picks-the-graduate.html?8dpc -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/d7d324dd/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Tue May 12 15:53:40 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Assembling in the eternal network Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905121253w31dd7bd7t685a85eec84d53ca@mail.gmail.com> _______________ "NONE OF THE ABOVE : Assembling, Collaborating and Publishing in the Eternal Network" A CALL FOR PARTICIPATION, to poets and artists ... In an ambitious assembling-style project, Minnesota Center for Book Arts invites any and all to send 125 copies of anything that will fit into a 9" x 12" envelope. This project is in conjunction with MCBA?s upcoming exhibition "None of the Above : Assembling, Collaborating and Publishing in the Eternal Network." An assembling project represents the ultimate in democratic art. Everything submitted will be included in the publication (or series of publications, depending on how many people participate). In return for your efforts, you receive a selection of 89 different works created by others who participate. What to send? Any means of expression is fine (paper, CDs, stickers, popsicle sticks) but it can be no larger than 8.5" x 11" (21.6 cm x 27.9 cm) and 1/8" thick (.3 cm). It can be folded, stitched, crushed, flattened, etc. Shrunk-via-shrink-ray submissions are okay. If you need a theme, submissions will be compiled in publications titled "None of the Above." How?s that for clear direction? How many to send? Submit 125 copies. 89 of these will go to other participants. Additional copies will be archived, distributed to donors/volunteers, and a small number will be sold as a fundraiser for MCBA. What else to send? So that we can send you your copy of the publication, include a sheet of paper with your name and postal address. Also include $5 in U.S. funds ? checks payable to Minnesota Center for Book Arts ? to cover the cost of envelopes and postage. Where to send ... "None of the Above," c/o Minnesota Center for Book Arts, 1011 Washington Avenue South, Suite 100, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55415 Deadlines: If we receive submissions by August 21, 2009, they will be displayed as part of the associated exhibition. To be included in the publication, submissions must be received no later than October 24, 2009. A special collating event will occur at MCBA on Saturday, October 24, 2009. For those who would like to participate, you may bring your 125 copies that evening rather than mailing. Then there is no fee. Please e-mail Jeff Rathermel, MCBA?s Artistic Director, at jrathermel@mnbookarts.org by October 16, 2009 if you will be participating. Arrive at 7:00 p.m., assembly lines commence at 7:30 p.m. Yours for the poetry of assembling, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ From cheekc at muohio.edu Tue May 12 17:28:01 2009 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net><55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC><4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> Obama to host poetry party at White House Consolidating his reputation for cool, the US president has invited writers and musicians to perform Obama is fond of poetry. He said on the campaign trail no one should graduate from university without having read poetry and has been spotted with a copy of works from the Nobel Prize-winning poet Derek Walcott in his back pocket. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/12/obama-poetry-jam-white-house o my xx cc On May 12, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Suzanne: > > First, I should say that I'm in agreement with you that sexual > harassment > should be treated seriously, and has been, probably still is, all > too often > brushed under the carpet. > > That said, snips will indicate that I think what you say is part of > a larger > (and perhaps different) issue rather than specific to Walcott, and > not an > attempt to ignore points you are making. > > "Robin, If Walcott has not been afforded due process-- and you make > a very > convincing argument-- then I would agree with you that proper > journalism is > called for. I'd like to see that happen, and if I have been misled > about > any of the facts, then I would be happy to stand corrected." > > Right away, we're up against a problem -- do you mean due process > over the > 1981 incident, or due process in the way this has been subsequently > exploited? > > I have no way of knowing what actually happened in 1981 and 1982 at > Harvard, > but I can (which is admittedly easier) document how it has been > increasingly > distorted. > > Also, it's perhaps worth noting that at the time, the reaction of > Walcott's > colleagues at Boston was indignation that a mark he had awarded had > been > overturned, and the refusal, despite several letters, of the Harvard > authorities to even discuss this. There's also the student who > wrote to the > Harvard Crimson at the time drawing attention to the fact that only > two > lecturers, both black, had ever been accused of sexual harassment in a > predominantly white faculty, and suggesting that when accusations > were made > against a white lecturer, the students were leant on to withdraw > them. And > a writer to the New York Times who identified herself as a > feminist, but > nevertheless pointed out that allowing the complainant anonymity but > publishing Walcott's name meant that he ended up smeared with no > recourse. > > I'm not saying any of these reactions were right or wrong, but drawing > attention to how what was even in 1982 an already complicated *set > of issues > has, over the course of time, been narrowed down to > Walcott-the-Sexual-Predator. > > It would be nice to get even some of the original issues clear -- > even what > he was originally accused off, and what eventuated. Was he accused > and > convicted of sexual harassment, or was he admonished for improper > conduct? > It starts murky, and it gets murkier as time passes. > > "I think there comes a point when it is time to say that it is time > for him > to talk about it, which might involve actiually reflecting on how > other > people feel, and the option of avoiding it maybe is no longer an > option. > This is the problem with privilege in general (whit privilege, male > privilege, etc.) is that those who are on the privileged side often > view it > as their right to ignore the whole matter. Is that truly a right?" > > I'm inclined to agree. But it's a bit late. Maybe at the time he > should > have made a stronger challenge. But then, as the Harvard Due > Process then > seemed to consist of confronting him with the accusations, noting > his reply, > passing the material upstairs for judgement and then passing the > judgement > back down, ex cathedra, it's difficult to see *how he could have > challenged > it other than (as he did) saying he disagreed. > > I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old Fury ... > > Robin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/2d12289a/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 12 18:40:46 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meanwhile In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-bu t.net><55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC><4A220F2E52C 547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A09FAEE.1010308@nut-n-but.net> I've made my debut as a blogger at http://www.schoolwidefundamentals.com/TeacherBlogs.aspx. My next blog will reveal the Truth about Derek. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:38:04 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Live Journal by Peter Ganick Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905121438m4b6cc40enf58ce82f840865ee@mail.gmail.com> [http://pganickz.livejournal.com/] With my thank you to Peter Ganick for having accepted my: AND ONE FOR THE FATHER -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/7654baf0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:40:11 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meanwhile In-Reply-To: <4A09FAEE.1010308@nut-n-but.net> References: <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A09FAEE.1010308@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905121440w61f2082l8d8c92d6a04ec237@mail.gmail.com> I like that balloon might as well read all the words that follow... :-) On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I've made my debut as a blogger at > http://www.schoolwidefundamentals.com/TeacherBlogs.aspx. My next blog > will reveal the Truth about Derek. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/1cf14b1c/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 12 20:16:54 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: References: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A0A1176.3090406@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Kleinzahler has a long, long way to go before he earns the right to be > an asshole that Miles Davis enjoyed... You're SUCH a beastly negative fellow, Chris!!! --BenignBob From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue May 12 19:15:40 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meanwhile In-Reply-To: <4A09FAEE.1010308@nut-n-but.net> References: <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A09FAEE.1010308@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <648208b60905121615t4e11705bk53379d07ca65cd28@mail.gmail.com> The reading aloud lead article leads one to have hope - the one, at any rate. I used to have my college freshmen read aloud - each one a paragraph when it was obvious they hadn't read the assignment - and it was so depressing I discontinued the effort. - Jim On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I've made my debut as a blogger at > http://www.schoolwidefundamentals.com/TeacherBlogs.aspx. My next blog > will reveal the Truth about Derek. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/24d79f97/attachment.html From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Tue May 12 19:31:31 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> Message-ID: Here are some letters from the other side of the fence-- worth reading and considering: http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2009/05/movement-to-stop-derek-walcotts.html I don't plan on posting more about this here-- I fear going off topic on this poetry listserv honestly, and I don't think the issue is going to wrap up here. WOM-PO has a lively and heartfelt discussion of course. Cheers all, Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/b623353b/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 12 20:54:40 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kleinzahler profile In-Reply-To: <4A0A1176.3090406@nut-n-but.net> References: <1CBB8402-F95E-43F8-ACF4-898911DFC6B9@ripon.edu> <4A0A1176.3090406@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I know, I'm wallowing in hypocrisy. But I'd be open to someone sharing a Kleinzahler poem or two that they really like... sometimes that's all that it takes. I've got plenty of room on my bookshelf :) c On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: >> >> Kleinzahler has a long, long way to go before he earns the right to be >> an asshole that Miles Davis enjoyed... > > You're SUCH a beastly negative fellow, Chris!!! > > --BenignBob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue May 12 23:25:53 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <8CBA0C4E2E23BE6-96C-261F@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <8CBA0C4E2E23BE6-96C-261F@FWM-D07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0905122025w5e2486c8j76eebc394c40ec09@mail.gmail.com> Well said, and I wish these corporation processes to stop such difficult situations were published and practiced in every workplace, James. We're talking about, as you've correctly emphasised, power positions----not gender. I've known as many female as male colleagues who've misused their positions of authority in sexual instances, as well as male-male and female-female situations. So let's at last be keen to know the fundamental problem: it is in taking advantage, whether knowingly or not [an important point to realise in the realm of oft-confusing sexual 'politics'], of one's relatively more powerful position. This which seems so evident to us as a group looking at one news-startling instance, may not seem so evident to us if we ourselves are becoming 'involved'. It is human to feel that some other compelling feeling than 'authority' is the actual foundation for the liaison. Yes, there are sexual predators, yes there are aggressive abusers of power, but there are, equally, many folk who are 'caught' in a tangle they haven't been prepared for and which may damage their career and their lives unalterably. Judy's mantra repeated: More information is nearly always helpful. So many people in workplaces would benefit from the ideas you've stated here. Best, Judy 2009/5/11 > Bob, > I don't' think any woman (healthy or unhealthy) should have to 'handle' > sexual advances from someone in a superior position (as in teacher-student > relationship). Sexual advances by a bosses toward lower-level employees > often result in high-dollar lawsuits in workplace environments. Corpoartions > now buy Employment Practices Liability (EPL) insurance against the high-cost > of these suits. Most boards are less than tolerant of bosses or managers, > successful as they may be in business matters, who trigger these kinds of > lawsuits. > > If two adults in a working situation have feelings for one another, it's > incumbent upon the one the superior position to take a step back and to get > a few details squared away first. Starting with a meeting in front of a > neutral third party whereby both parties assert to the third party > their mutual feelings and both assert that nothing is being traded for > sexual favors. That conversation should be documented. Then, assuming there > are no legal or institutional policies in the way of their relaitonship, > they can go forth and act freely according to their desires. > Finnegan, CPCU > Risk Management Professional > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:00 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty > edge > > Suzanne Burns wrote: > > I am looking forward to the day when this kind of behavior is no > longer > winked at or indulged just because the man in question is Mr. > Famous Poet > who is accustomed to having everyone kiss up to his > reputation and thinks > it is his privilege to have his fun at the > expense of his students. I'd > find it refreshing if Oxford could have > the cajunas just say "no" to Derek > Walcott-- seriously, I think it > would be good for him to hear someone say > "no" and have that be final. > > > > I honestly don't think his situation is remotely comparable to a > > teacher falling in love with and marrying a student. Walcott really > was > notorious for specifically this kind of ongoing bullying. > > > Sorry to sound axe grindy. I'm tired of having to be "polite" about > > these issues and I am sick to death of people who throw around the "Oh > we > must not cave into political correctness!" argument to completely > shut > down discussion anytime someone tries to bring up the other point > of view > and do something about this shit for a change. Its oppressive > and it > silences people. This crap truly makes me furious. > > > > Suzanne > Sounds to me you're the one trying to shut down conversation, Suzanne. > There are two sides to every story. I don't know beans about Walcott except > that he's a severely over-rated poet. I do know that there is a complex > continuum of male/female socio-sexual interaction and that it's rarely easy > to fix blame, if blame is merited, in most portions of it. I further believe > that whether Walcott gets the position should depend on his knowledge of > poetry--unless he's a criminal. And now I'll really step into it--I doubt > he's been guilty of anything but boorish behavior that any healthy woman > should have been able to handle. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090512/844582ab/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed May 13 01:21:14 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905122221p55d94c53lacc6b15c28a81e58@mail.gmail.com> I am sorry, Susan, I did not take part in this thread. I do have personal issues, and they are personal. I do not know W's story. About the Wom-po, and as usual, my favorite input is by Ellen Moody. On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Suzanne Burns wrote: > Here are some letters from the other side of the fence-- worth reading and > considering: > > > http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2009/05/movement-to-stop-derek-walcotts.html > > I don't plan on posting more about this here-- I fear going off topic on > this poetry listserv honestly, and I don't think the issue is going to wrap > up here. WOM-PO has a lively and heartfelt discussion of course. > > Cheers all, > > Suzanne > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090513/fc793893/attachment.html From atelierjewelweed at gmail.com Wed May 13 01:25:24 2009 From: atelierjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905122221p55d94c53lacc6b15c28a81e58@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A08E65E.6090201@nut-n-but.net> <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> <4b65c2d70905122221p55d94c53lacc6b15c28a81e58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am sorry, Susan, I did not take part in this thread. I do have personal > issues, and they are personal. I do not know W's story. About the Wom-po, > and as usual, my favorite input is by Ellen Moody. Ellen really is amazing, isn't she? :-) Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090513/2e3ade65/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed May 13 01:53:05 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sex pest file gives Oxford poetry race a nasty edge In-Reply-To: References: <55637DA42EAB4240AD13E8E589354874@RobinLaptopPC> <4A220F2E52C547DBAF04BED5EB852FB1@RobinLaptopPC> <47E0A1BA13CE4F17948C958997D72CBC@RobinLaptopPC> <35F14713-F266-4814-B1F5-289FE8BC8A1E@muohio.edu> <4b65c2d70905122221p55d94c53lacc6b15c28a81e58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905122253k1bb5d7adgca7e2a003d1ea295@mail.gmail.com> I often said she is my "hero" I don't know if she likes the masculinization of the gender in her case... On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Suzanne Burns wrote: > > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I am sorry, Susan, I did not take part in this thread. I do have personal >> issues, and they are personal. I do not know W's story. About the Wom-po, >> and as usual, my favorite input is by Ellen Moody. > > > Ellen really is amazing, isn't she? :-) > > Suzanne > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090513/110084c1/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Wed May 13 10:34:12 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Breakthrough in Berlin Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905130734l27551575w9902a72057fa6c@mail.gmail.com> _______________ BREAKTHROUGH IN BERLIN Saturday the 27th of June 2009 CALL FOR PROJECTS ... ** Description "Breakthrough" proposes an experimental, interdisciplinary event constructing a new field of research & play. "Breakthrough" signals the skewed extension & plain rupture with a series of earlier actions [in London, Bergen, Berlin] exploring the material basis of technology & expanding on the practice of life coding. The term "breakthrough" describes a sudden shift in understanding or technologies, & finally a clearing (Lichtung), an entry into unknown & unmapped territories. An enclosure is breached allowing access to another, totally unforeseen state or space. Communication is thus implied, a new form of exchange, perhaps between two otherwise unconnected domains, between the living & the dead, between many worlds. What does the sheer possibility of a "breakthrough" imply for communication between the past & the future? "Breakthrough," as event, signals a change in direction, a pointing towards new ways of actively describing & creating the world. Within a complex mise en scene of workshops, lectures & performances, diverse artists & poets, theorists, researchers, & hackers collaborate in the creation of a "breakthrough" which can rupture the enclosure of scientific rationalism & enlightenment without recourse to named magic. http://www.piksel.no/2009/05/breakthrough-saturday-27th-june-2009-call-for-projects-berlin http://www.1010.co.uk/ ** Call for projects/actions: "Breakthrough" calls for projects which perform, describe & construct (in process) a rupture or breaking through of the projects of rationalism & endeavour of past or future intention. Projection & play with time space co-ordinate points is encouraged. Potential actions or investigations could very well extend into ... practical endophysics, sound & radio wave transitions, diagrammatic formation, clustering & islanding, simulations coding & exploration, biologic interface, crashing, brain writing, construction, environmental steganography, data forensics, escape hatch literature, novel geometry description, life coding, poetry coding, interrupt theatre, sexual coding, amateur radio astronomy, etc. "Breakthrough" will be prepared within a three day workshop in Berlin, towards the construction of a one day event distributed across the city of Berlin, & maintained with a strict scheduling & interrupt system backbone (micro-FM and Internet). Please submit short messages of intent to m@1010.co.uk by the 29th of May 2009. http://www.1010.co.uk/ "Breakthrough" is supported by Hauptstadtkulturfonds, Berlin 2009 http://www.hauptstadtkulturfonds.berlin.de/ ** Postscript: Byrne: "I do not want to get a long half-hour involvement about Faraday cages, diodes, or transistors & so on. Ken, in very simple language & very shortly, have you been able to break this thing technically?" Attwood: "Technically, no." [Voices From The Tapes. Peter Bander. 1973] ______________________________________________ a m b i t : networking media arts in scotland Multi-dimensionally, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ From seamascain at gmail.com Wed May 13 12:28:41 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Haiku Foundation Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905130928g4acee40ah40d63ffcd08169a6@mail.gmail.com> _______________ THE HAIKU FOUNDATION http://www.thehaikufoundation.org Dear Friends: The Haiku Foundation, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to archive the accomplishments of the first century of haiku in English and to create greater opportunities for its second, was chartered in the state of Virginia, USA, on 6 January 2009. It is a volunteer organization primarily designed to create and implement projects centered around haiku. Most haiku organizations have privileged the poet and her needs: education, publication, socialization. The Haiku Foundation instead seeks to foster the growth of haiku itself. This is where poets come when they want to give back. We are pleased to announce the public unveiling of our website. We hope you will visit it often and with pleasure. Please tell us how it serves you, and how it might serve you in the future. And most of all, we welcome your participation. Please join us to help us realize our goals. Jim Kacian The Haiku Foundation http://www.thehaikufoundation.org ... The Foundation appears to invite participation by a wide diversity of poets. And, it's web-site includes various examples by Marijan Cekolj, David Cobb, James W. Hackett, Jack Kerouac, Ezra Pound, and Richard Wright among other unexpected authors of haiku. In minimum, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ From skip at louisiana.edu Wed May 13 15:12:45 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Delta Blues In-Reply-To: <6f1e9ee40905130928g4acee40ah40d63ffcd08169a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1877F16F814A4CB489836CE48F43E124@win.louisiana.edu> If anyone would like a copy of my recent book, Delta Blues, please send your snail mail address to: skip@louisiana.edu From chris at chrislott.org Wed May 13 16:45:57 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Delta Blues In-Reply-To: <1877F16F814A4CB489836CE48F43E124@win.louisiana.edu> References: <6f1e9ee40905130928g4acee40ah40d63ffcd08169a6@mail.gmail.com> <1877F16F814A4CB489836CE48F43E124@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I certainly would! Chris Lott UAF CDE PO Box 756700 Fairbanks, AK 99775 Thank you! c On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > If anyone would like a copy of my recent book, Delta Blues, please send your > snail mail address to: > > skip@louisiana.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jforjames at aol.com Wed May 13 22:53:23 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] White House Poetry Jam Message-ID: <8CBA2564833C0C2-12F4-28BE@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/12/AR2009051203955.html?hpid=moreheadlines With White House Poetry Jam, a New Era Is Spoken For By DeNeen L. Brown Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, May 13, 2009 Perhaps for the first time ever, the White House jammed and slammed last night. Poets and playwrights, actors and musicians packed the ornate East Room, delivering cool jazz and glorious spoken-word poetry, sprinkling a bit of hip-hop and a bit of the heroic couplet. And through it all, the president and the first lady watched -- and applauded. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090513/b3e2e88e/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu May 14 03:15:56 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ah, les savants! Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905140015u5446d7e8s9bd2ccb8269bab6e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13489714 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/1369844b/attachment.html From browning at splitthisrock.org Thu May 14 05:54:00 2009 From: browning at splitthisrock.org (browning) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deadline Extended to June 30: Split This Rock Call for Panel Proposals, Workshops, Etc. In-Reply-To: <788892.82429.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D72714E9B0940238F31367735E62966@SBLAPTOP> Dear Friends, We've extended the deadline for proposals for panels, workshops, and sundry exciting festival events. Please spread the word - and send us your fabulous ideas. Thanks! The "Call" is below, for your convenience, with a link to the full guidelines. - Split This Rock Team ** Call for Proposals: Split This Rock Poetry Festival 2010 Split This Rock Poetry Festival: Poems of Provocation & Witness invites poets, writers, activists, and all concerned citizens to Washington, DC, March 10-13, 2010 for four days of poetry, community building, and creative transformation as our country continues to grapple with two wars, a crippling economic crisis, and other social and environmental ills. The festival will feature readings, workshops, panel discussions, youth programming, film, activism -- opportunities to imagine a way forward, hone our community and activist skills, and celebrate the many ways that poetry can act as an agent for social change. We invite you to send proposals for panel discussions, group readings, roundtable discussions, workshops, and small-scale performances on a range of topics at the intersection of poetry and social change. Possibilities are endless. Challenge us. NEW DEADLINE: June 30, 2009. Details and guidelines are online at: www.splitthisrock.org/documents/2010_panel_proposals.doc Discussion and community building are at the heart of Split This Rock. We value diversity, creativity, and new ideas. Check out last year's schedule for inspiration: www.splitthisrock.org/schedule.html . Please join us! Help Split This Rock Spread the Word Forward this email, post it on your blog, send a message to all your Facebook friends. We are a grassroots movement and need your help to reach a wide variety of poets and poetry lovers. Thanks! ** Sarah Browning Co-Director Split This Rock Poetry Festival c/o Institute for Policy Studies 1112 16th Street, NW, Suite 600 Washington, DC 20036 browning@splitthisrock.org www.splitthisrock.org 202-787-5210 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/df67de0c/attachment.html From chan_jt at hotmail.com Thu May 14 05:59:26 2009 From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (Jill Chan) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] These Hands Are Not Ours (Earl of Seacliff Art Workshop, 2009) available Message-ID: Dear All, My third book, These Hands Are Not Ours, published by Earl of Seacliff Art Workshop, is now available for pre-order. It will be released in early June 2009. Jill Chan's These Hands Are Not Ours, her third book of poetry, explores the deep and sometimes uncanny relationships between our human experiences and our wider, more tenuous though, at times, no less ambiguous experiences of the divine. These poems are written in an almost subliminal language filled with beautiful tension and silent immensity. Perhaps we are never created until we are brave enough to be made. Until these hands are not ours but the sky?s, we claim too much of the night, the love, its making. (excerpt from 'Claim') Jill Chan grew up in Manila, Philippines. She has a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry. In 1994, she migrated to New Zealand. Her poems have appeared in Poetry New Zealand, JAAM, Trout, Takahe, Asia and Pacific Writers Network, MiPOesias, Tears in the Fence, foam:e, and New Zealand Poetry Sound Archive. Her two previous collections, The Smell of Oranges, and Becoming Someone Who Isn't, were published by Earl of Seacliff Art Workshop. She is the editor of Poetry Sz: demystifying mental illness, and Numinous: Spiritual Poetry. Please mention that you learned about These Hands Are Not Ours through the author when you order your copy via the link below: http://www.earlofseacliff.co.nz/TheseHands.htm Thank you very much. Cheers Jill _________________________________________________________________ Find a way to cure that travel bug MSN NZ Travel http://travel.msn.co.nz/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/079ba72a/attachment.html From artsandfetters at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:53:42 2009 From: artsandfetters at gmail.com (Arts & Fetters Info) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] call for submissions to Arts & Fetters Message-ID: <656778310905140953q76eacaa2pfc65d7fcb0867a2b@mail.gmail.com> an ongoing community project abbreviating 'great works' into ten words each. http://www.artsandfetters.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/73436032/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Thu May 14 13:19:23 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy in Dublin, Ireland Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905141019g56452e7bl4cea55a93195ee59@mail.gmail.com> _______________ Dublin Writers Festival http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com Dear Administrators, Once again the Dublin Writers Festival has excluded Irish-language writers from any meaningful participation in the Festival events and activities. This behaviour by the organizers is shameful, offensive, and imperious. Indeed, I call for a boycott of the Dublin Writers Festival. It is my intention to urge writers, artists, and other citizens (in Ireland, Britain, the U.S. and other countries) to withdraw any and all support from the Festival and its activities. I urge an earthquake of a protest campaign until there is a constructive remedy to this imperiousness! For creative diversity in Ireland, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain 323 Fourth Street, Cloquet, Minnesota, U.S.A., 55720 - 2051 Phone (in North America) : 218.879.8628 _______________ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Gabriel Rosenstock Date: Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:51 AM Subject: Dublin Festival Farce To: info@dublinwritersfestival.com Dublin Writers Festival http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com Greetings! I had hoped that the days of literary and linguistic apartheid were well over. Seemingly not. It would appear that your festival has boycotted Irish-language writers. How sad. Pathetic, really, given the fact that an anthology of contemporary Irish-language poetry and prose, AMANAIRIS, has appeared in Slovenian and was recently launched in the National Library, Dublin, and reported below in the Slovenian press. http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=s&id=1389165 Mise, gan m?r?n measa agam oraibh, Gabriel Rosenstock _______________ Boycott and protest against the Dublin Writers Festival! S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain _______________ From Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu Thu May 14 13:24:50 2009 From: Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu (Sigauke, Emmanuel) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy in Dublin, Ireland In-Reply-To: <6f1e9ee40905141019g56452e7bl4cea55a93195ee59@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f1e9ee40905141019g56452e7bl4cea55a93195ee59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8AB6AE105E0CE34EA7047DA0D6F0A9712102B77486@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> Can we blog about this, Seamus? Can we site you? Emmanuel www.vasigauke.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of S?amas Cain Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 10:19 AM To: New-Poetry E-list Cc: info@dublinwritersfestival.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy in Dublin, Ireland _______________ Dublin Writers Festival http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com Dear Administrators, Once again the Dublin Writers Festival has excluded Irish-language writers from any meaningful participation in the Festival events and activities. This behaviour by the organizers is shameful, offensive, and imperious. Indeed, I call for a boycott of the Dublin Writers Festival. It is my intention to urge writers, artists, and other citizens (in Ireland, Britain, the U.S. and other countries) to withdraw any and all support from the Festival and its activities. I urge an earthquake of a protest campaign until there is a constructive remedy to this imperiousness! For creative diversity in Ireland, S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain 323 Fourth Street, Cloquet, Minnesota, U.S.A., 55720 - 2051 Phone (in North America) : 218.879.8628 _______________ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Gabriel Rosenstock Date: Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:51 AM Subject: Dublin Festival Farce To: info@dublinwritersfestival.com Dublin Writers Festival http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com Greetings! I had hoped that the days of literary and linguistic apartheid were well over. Seemingly not. It would appear that your festival has boycotted Irish-language writers. How sad. Pathetic, really, given the fact that an anthology of contemporary Irish-language poetry and prose, AMANAIRIS, has appeared in Slovenian and was recently launched in the National Library, Dublin, and reported below in the Slovenian press. http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=s&id=1389165 Mise, gan m?r?n measa agam oraibh, Gabriel Rosenstock _______________ Boycott and protest against the Dublin Writers Festival! S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain _______________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Thu May 14 13:32:26 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review Message-ID: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include them. (excerpt) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/0acf1338/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu May 14 13:36:13 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? In-Reply-To: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I've not heard from or about Vernon for some time. Is he alright? Does anyone have his snail mail address? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/3dd6f47b/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Thu May 14 13:42:36 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy in Dublin, Ireland In-Reply-To: <8AB6AE105E0CE34EA7047DA0D6F0A9712102B77486@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> References: <6f1e9ee40905141019g56452e7bl4cea55a93195ee59@mail.gmail.com> <8AB6AE105E0CE34EA7047DA0D6F0A9712102B77486@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40905141042j2ed50da4u704de258fc2400b5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Emmanuel, Yes, blog away! And yes, cite me as you wish! Many thanks! S?amas _______ On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Sigauke, Emmanuel wrote: > Can we blog about this, Seamus? Can we site you? > > Emmanuel > www.vasigauke.blogspot.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of S?amas Cain > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 10:19 AM > To: New-Poetry E-list > Cc: info@dublinwritersfestival.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Controversy in Dublin, Ireland > > _______________ > > > Dublin Writers Festival > http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com > > Dear Administrators, > > Once again the Dublin Writers Festival has excluded Irish-language > writers from any meaningful participation in the Festival events and > activities. ?This behaviour by the organizers is shameful, offensive, > and imperious. ?Indeed, I call for a boycott of the Dublin Writers > Festival. ?It is my intention to urge writers, artists, and other > citizens (in Ireland, Britain, the U.S. and other countries) to > withdraw any and all support from the Festival and its activities. ?I > urge an earthquake of a protest campaign until there is a constructive > remedy to this imperiousness! > > For creative diversity in Ireland, > > S?amas Cain > http://alazanto.org/seamascain > > 323 Fourth Street, > Cloquet, Minnesota, > U.S.A., > 55720 - 2051 > > Phone (in North America) : 218.879.8628 > > _______________ > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Gabriel Rosenstock > Date: Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:51 AM > Subject: Dublin Festival Farce > To: info@dublinwritersfestival.com > > Dublin Writers Festival > http://www.dublinwritersfestival.com > > Greetings! > > I had hoped that the days of literary and linguistic apartheid were > well over. ?Seemingly not. ?It would appear that your festival has > boycotted Irish-language writers. ?How sad. ?Pathetic, really, given > the fact that an anthology of contemporary Irish-language poetry and > prose, AMANAIRIS, has appeared in Slovenian and was recently launched > in the National Library, Dublin, and reported below in the Slovenian > press. > > http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=s&id=1389165 > > Mise, gan m?r?n measa agam oraibh, > > Gabriel Rosenstock > > _______________ > > Boycott and protest against the Dublin Writers Festival! > > S?amas Cain > http://alazanto.org/seamascain > > _______________ > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu May 14 14:19:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905141119x133d9431y1e8ab41179e72d23@mail.gmail.com> Dear Skip, I don't know if this is still his address: "Vernon Frazer" , let us know if everything is all right. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > > > I?ve not heard from or about Vernon for some time. Is he alright? Does > anyone have his snail mail address? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/5532fb4a/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu May 14 15:17:14 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905141119x133d9431y1e8ab41179e72d23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It no longer works. Hmmm. Still not worried, but it's been 6-8 months since he's posted, right??? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:20 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? Dear Skip, I don't know if this is still his address: "Vernon Frazer" , let us know if everything is all right. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Skip Fox wrote: I've not heard from or about Vernon for some time. Is he alright? Does anyone have his snail mail address? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/9e474aed/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu May 14 15:33:25 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70905141119x133d9431y1e8ab41179e72d23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905141233s30e30184w8bd5a694fcfc1ce3@mail.gmail.com> He has this address on his site: vernonfrazer2002@yahoo.com http://www.unlikelystories.org/old/frazer.html On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > It no longer works. Hmmm. Still not worried, but it?s been 6-8 months > since he?s posted, right??? > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:20 PM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Vernon Frazer's address? > > > > Dear Skip, > > I don't know if this is still his address: > "Vernon Frazer" , > > let us know if everything is all right. > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > > > > I?ve not heard from or about Vernon for some time. Is he alright? Does > anyone have his snail mail address? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090514/109feb44/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 15 10:16:28 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel profile Message-ID: <8CBA37EDFAD9DCD-C54-26C5@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> When I played it, there was a woman?s voice, a young woman?s voice sounding deeply aroused, saying: ?Frederick Seidel . . . Frederick Seidel . . . you think you?re going to live. You think you?re going to live. But you?re not. You?re not going to live. You?re not going to live. . . .? All this extraordinary, suggestive heavy breathing, getting, in the tone of it, more and more intensely sexual, more gruesome, and then this sort of explosion of sound from this woman, and: ?You?re . . . not . . . going . . . to . . . live.? ? more... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12Seidel-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/9b56e66c/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Fri May 15 10:28:31 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last night conducted the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked at one time), Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George Gershwin in a film), Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said on those two), and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: > http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm > > John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine > Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe > Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan > Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy > of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry > Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same > year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and > Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include > them. > (excerpt) > > ------------------------------ > Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/a16a3711/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 15 11:24:12 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Campion brings Keats to Canne Message-ID: <8CBA38855C9C4D2-1770-41E8@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> ? Jane Campion's latest film, on show at Cannes, portrays the passionate affair between the Romantic poet John Keats and his teenaged love Fanny Brawne but is not a biopic, the New Zealand-born director said... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/15/AR2009051501247.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/02927ce3/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 15 11:25:54 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Campion brings Keats to Cannes (do over with silent s) In-Reply-To: <8CBA38855C9C4D2-1770-41E8@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA38855C9C4D2-1770-41E8@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBA38892BE10AA-1770-41FD@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> Jane Campion's latest film, on show at Cannes, portrays the passionate affair between the Romantic poet John Keats and his teenaged love Fanny Brawne but is not a biopic, the New Zealand-born director said... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/15/AR2009051501247.html An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/50d21b2b/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri May 15 11:58:33 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> You do have your Burt Reynolds moments. - Jim On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last night > conducted > the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked at > one time), > Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George Gershwin > in a film), > Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said on > those two), > and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. > > Hal > > "My experience is what I agree to attend to." > --William James > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: > >> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm >> >> John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine >> Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe >> Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan >> Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy >> of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry >> Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same >> year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and >> Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include >> them. >> (excerpt) >> >> ------------------------------ >> Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/89c57021/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 15 11:58:39 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] photographs Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905150858w2abc0ffap2e220c587346f755@mail.gmail.com> http://www.viewpictures.co.uk -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/a9d363b6/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 15 12:10:34 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> Also your Ursula Andress's ones, :-) On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > You do have your Burt Reynolds moments. > - Jim > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last night >> conducted >> the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked at >> one time), >> Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George Gershwin >> in a film), >> Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said on >> those two), >> and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. >> >> Hal >> >> "My experience is what I agree to attend to." >> --William James >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: >> >>> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm >>> >>> John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine >>> Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe >>> Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan >>> Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy >>> of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry >>> Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same >>> year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and >>> Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include >>> them. >>> (excerpt) >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/11a5630d/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Fri May 15 12:23:27 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll take whatever moments I can get. Hal "My experience is what I agree to attend to." --William James Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Also your Ursula Andress's ones, :-) > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You do have your Burt Reynolds moments. >> - Jim >> >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last >>> night conducted >>> the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked at >>> one time), >>> Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George Gershwin >>> in a film), >>> Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said >>> on those two), >>> and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "My experience is what I agree to attend to." >>> --William James >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm >>>> >>>> John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine >>>> Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe >>>> Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan >>>> Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy >>>> of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry >>>> Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same >>>> year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and >>>> Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include >>>> them. >>>> (excerpt) >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/c3a7bc94/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 15 13:13:46 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Marion K. Stocking RIP Message-ID: <8CBA397A43A09E6-12DC-250@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> Longtime editor of the Beloit Poetry Journal... http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/bangornews/obituary.aspx?n=marion-kingston-stocking&pid=127281335 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/ca246c38/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri May 15 13:53:44 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60905151053i89e92fag12ae990c06bec963@mail.gmail.com> Heh. Thanks for that one Anny. Lynda will enjoy it also. - Jim On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Also your Ursula Andress's ones, :-) > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You do have your Burt Reynolds moments. >> - Jim >> >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last >>> night conducted >>> the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked at >>> one time), >>> Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George Gershwin >>> in a film), >>> Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said >>> on those two), >>> and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "My experience is what I agree to attend to." >>> --William James >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm >>>> >>>> John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine >>>> Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe >>>> Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan >>>> Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy >>>> of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry >>>> Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same >>>> year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and >>>> Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include >>>> them. >>>> (excerpt) >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/e0ae857a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 15 13:54:13 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel profile In-Reply-To: <8CBA37EDFAD9DCD-C54-26C5@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBA37EDFAD9DCD-C54-26C5@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905151054ubdc8f42qfbdeda2551f5ce46@mail.gmail.com> Thank you James, and with a perfect reading by the Author. On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:16 PM, wrote: > When I played it, there was a woman?s voice, a young woman?s voice sounding > deeply aroused, saying: ?Frederick Seidel . . . Frederick Seidel . . . you > think you?re going to live. You think you?re going to live. But you?re not. > You?re not going to live. You?re not going to live. . . .? All this > extraordinary, suggestive heavy breathing, getting, in the tone of it, more > and more intensely sexual, more gruesome, and then this sort of explosion of > sound from this woman, and: ?You?re . . . not . . . going . . . to . . . > live.? ? > > more... > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12Seidel-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all > > > > ------------------------------ > *An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/d1acf8ae/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri May 15 14:00:03 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Giorno review In-Reply-To: <648208b60905151053i89e92fag12ae990c06bec963@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBA2D1150B4A1E-1424-1759@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com> <648208b60905150858i67a36e1ey76fae28eb69c9d2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70905150910k267dedf0n9e6a8ce38c7f636f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60905151053i89e92fag12ae990c06bec963@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70905151100v5babd0fds75c4893ab9fdef67@mail.gmail.com> You are having fun over there! I will be missing you all this summer! On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 7:53 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Heh. Thanks for that one Anny. Lynda will enjoy it also. > - Jim > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Also your Ursula Andress's ones, :-) >> >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Cervantes < >> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> You do have your Burt Reynolds moments. >>> - Jim >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> 1936--also the birth year of Halvard Johnson, David Zinman (who last >>>> night conducted >>>> the New York Philharmonic), Eva Hess (for whom Hal's wife Lynda worked >>>> at one time), >>>> Alan Alda (son of the famous Robert Alda, who once played George >>>> Gershwin in a film), >>>> Ursula Andress (who was a 10), Dennis Hopper, Robert Redford (nuff said >>>> on those two), >>>> and . . . oh, yes . . . Burt Reynolds, John McCain, and Steve Reich. >>>> >>>> Hal >>>> >>>> "My experience is what I agree to attend to." >>>> --William James >>>> >>>> Halvard Johnson >>>> ================ >>>> halvard@gmail.com >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://gcadvocate.org/index.php/view/00444/Reality-is-very-haunting.htm >>>>> >>>>> John Giorno is the most important poet you?ve never heard of. Elaine >>>>> Showalter calls him the father of performance poetry, though Cristin O?Keefe >>>>> Aptowicz?s definitive history of slam mentions him not at all, save Dan >>>>> Nester listing him as an influence in his Introduction. The American Academy >>>>> of Poets has a single poem by Giorno in their archive, though the Poetry >>>>> Foundation has no listing for him at all. Giorno was born in 1936, the same >>>>> year as June Jordan, C.K. Williams, and two years after Amiri Baraka and >>>>> Audre Lorde?but his name is absent from the poetry anthologies that include >>>>> them. >>>>> (excerpt) >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090515/480461f6/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri May 15 14:14:23 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:52:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] litmag watch: locuspoint Message-ID: <8CBA3A01BBDD357-12DC-578@MBLK-M12.sysops.aol.com> A collaborativ