Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of Détente for Creative-Wri ting Programs

[Mark Weiss]

Anny: I wasn't talking about poets on the list. I go to dozens of 
readings a year--often several a week--and read or glance through 
hundreds of new books. There are some very good writers out there, 
but there's also a mob of not-so-good to awful, all licensed to 
teach. Very few of them have an education, or a commitment, like yours.

There's never been any shortage of mentors, but they haven't always 
expected to be paid for mentoring.

Bob Grumman says: "The only thing I see wrong with the MFA program is 
that it's pretty much a closed shop.  To make a living doing anything 
related to poetry, you (with some exceptions) need the 
MFA.  Credentials get you teaching positions, not 
accomplishments.  That's what's wrong."  They also get you jobs in 
publishing. I agree with him, except that I take issue with "the only 
thing I see wrong." With professionalization comes standardization. 
There are a great many programs in the country, and there are, 
broadly speaking, different tendencies in poetry being taught, but 
the products of whatever tendency already show signs of standardization.

There's also been an adaptation of critical language from other 
disciplines, which in itself is fine, though it does tend to restrict 
the discussion of literature to those with specialist educations. The 
assumption seems to be that the audience for poetry and for the 
discussion of poetry is a university audience. Others are excluded 
from the dialogue. So the audience becomes in fact increasingly a 
university audience.

But this would happen anyway as more and more poets become academics. 
One writes from and to one's environment. If writers increasingly 
live and work in a similar environment other environments become less 
visible and are less served.

This may be less of a problem in major metropolitan areas. At 
Columbia, where I did some of my undergraduate and most of my 
graduate work (none of it in creative writing), I think we were all 
aware that New York was the larger reality. Contrast this with UC 
Irvine, where most of the faculty live in a neighborhood entirely 
owned by the university. They buy their houses from the university 
and sell them back at a fixed margin. Otherwise the faculty couldn't 
afford to live in the area. Or think about places like Texas A&M or 
Penn State, where the university is the only industry. These aren't 
traditional factory towns--the faculty are both more privileged than 
the rest of the population, with which they have little in common, 
and far more mobile, with less commitment to the local. "Home" is an 
academic discipline, which may often require transfers to other 
bases, where the culture will be more similar than not.

The days of the MFA-professor are at any rate numbered. I'm guessing 
that over the course of the next decade the creative PhD will have 
taken over as a requirement, further debasing the currency.

Mark







At 03:12 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote:
>I logically already said what I think, which opposes Mark's 
>obstinate defense of a wild natural literary development. Dickinson 
>was a genius but she did not have to work eight hours every day and 
>had time to read and write. In other terms, she had the possibility 
>of outlining her own MFA [or whatever you wish to call it].
>
>Maybe Mark did not consider the fact that people [the majority of 
>simple human beings who still have empathic feelings towards 
>humanity at large, see Pina Bausch's interview on 
><http://ubu.com>ubu.com] feel the need to share responsibilities and 
>burdens - which eat down our daily time, besides the fact that they 
>also have a consciousness and tend to educate those who are younger, 
>by applying their own experience and creeds [which is obviously the 
>wrongest thing to do because each generation has to develop their 
>own parameters].
>
>He alludes to the fact that he does not want to offend anybody, 
>which can easily brought back to the fact that he does not like how 
>some people on this list write.
>
>I think he is leveling down all "my" ["my" in inverted commas 
>because it could be "our" if you agree with me] attempts at being in 
>a literary community in a too simple way, and that he has 
>misunderstood my involvement with my MFA, and my studies at large. I 
>spent years studying German, French, and I gave Spanish a good part 
>of my time. I was very surprised in a poetry translation course to 
>notice that I had greater access to the Spanish language [my very 
>last language] than the person who wanted to translate from this 
>language and to the intrinsic wish of the Author when approached. I 
>naturally studied these languages by following conservative courses 
>with grammar, books and teachers / professors. As you all know, 
>languages disappear if they are not continuously practiced, but if 
>for example someone asks me to translate a text - it might take me 
>some time - but I still have the keys to access them and will for 
>the length of my life.
>
>But logically, as Paul Muldoon said to Colbert, his mother told him 
>over and over again to go out and get a job. In front of this, I 
>have absolutely nothing to say.
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Judy Prince 
><<mailto:jbalizsprince at googlemail.com>jbalizsprince at googlemail.com> wrote:
>"An official literary culture tends to exclude."  And plenty of 
>MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy 
>and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly point 
>out, Mark, is largely a USA thing.
>
>One of my mantras:  Few situations are not helped by more information.
>
>Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding 
>"official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we 
>may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have 
>discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to develop it 
>and open further networked doors to others.
>
>Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing 
>giants?  Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always 
>done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious 
>few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson 
>and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] a similar 
>excluding conservative mix.
>
>Am I backing MFA programmes?  Yes.
>
>Would I like to see other options?  Most definitely.  As just one 
>example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary 
>schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, 
>as well as public and private libraries, encourage poetry-writing 
>groups.  One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and 
>Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses.
>
>As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with 
>mentors.  Nice, that.
>
>Best,
>
>Judy
>
>
>2009/7/2 Mark Weiss <<mailto:junction at earthlink.net>junction at earthlink.net>
>
>An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an 
>official literary culture.
>
>
><snip>
>
>
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>--
>Anny Ballardini
><http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
><http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
>Friedrich Nietzsche
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