Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of Détente for Creative-Wri ting Programs

[Chris Lott]

Is surmising you are a Bernsteinian an ad hominem? If so, I apologize.
It's just that, with respect, you sound just like him. Of course his
contention about the "OVC" is a bit questionable now that he teaches
in the academy or hypocritically sucks at the academy's teat,
depending on one's perspective.

I'm optimistic about literary culture because there's so much vitality
there in this country as well as others. One can always argue there
would be more without MFA programs, but it's awfully hard to prove. On
the other hand, one can point to writers from within and without that
are doing amazing things, thus these endless debates.

c

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Re: first paragraph: Nope.
>
> As far as I know, MFAs or their equivalent only exist in English-speaking
> countries and are only entrenched in this one. You're apparently more
> optimistic about our literary culture than I am.
>
> You may note that I've avoided ad homina. You might want to do the same.
>
> At 11:37 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, angry at the Official Verse
>> Culture stifling all those poor writers who would've been great if
>> they'd just not been subjected to the brainwashing of the moribund
>> literary elite. Poor wilting flowers all.
>>
>> Just as you maintain that whether X was a good teacher or not is
>> beside the point, so is the fact that places without creative writing
>> programs have a thriving literature... because places with them do
>> too.
>>
>> I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue myself... not because of
>> creative writing programs in particular, but because the good teachers
>> in those programs and everywhere else in higher ed are working in a
>> broken system. One from which there is no real escape and which will
>> suffer no revolution.
>>
>> c
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an
>> > official
>> > literary culture.
>> >
>> > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it
>> > or
>> > misread it. I have proofreading to do.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >> As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free.
>> >>
>> >> Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach
>> >> someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past
>> >> writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least
>> >> it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than
>> >> trying TO teach someone to write good poems.
>> >>
>> >> And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of
>> >> paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they
>> >> weren't really capable of doing so in the first place.
>> >>
>> >> c
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a
>> >> > Rimbaud,
>> >> > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own.
>> >> >
>> >> > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to
>> >> >> > write.
>> >> >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite
>> >> >> > accomplishment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> c
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