Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of Détente for Creative-Wri ting Programs

[Mark Weiss]

Re: first paragraph: Nope.

As far as I know, MFAs or their equivalent only exist in 
English-speaking countries and are only entrenched in this one. 
You're apparently more optimistic about our literary culture than I am.

You may note that I've avoided ad homina. You might want to do the same.

At 11:37 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, angry at the Official Verse
>Culture stifling all those poor writers who would've been great if
>they'd just not been subjected to the brainwashing of the moribund
>literary elite. Poor wilting flowers all.
>
>Just as you maintain that whether X was a good teacher or not is
>beside the point, so is the fact that places without creative writing
>programs have a thriving literature... because places with them do
>too.
>
>I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue myself... not because of
>creative writing programs in particular, but because the good teachers
>in those programs and everywhere else in higher ed are working in a
>broken system. One from which there is no real escape and which will
>suffer no revolution.
>
>c
>
>On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an official
> > literary culture.
> >
> > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it or
> > misread it. I have proofreading to do.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
> >>
> >> As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free.
> >>
> >> Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach
> >> someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past
> >> writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least
> >> it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than
> >> trying TO teach someone to write good poems.
> >>
> >> And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of
> >> paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they
> >> weren't really capable of doing so in the first place.
> >>
> >> c
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a
> >> > Rimbaud,
> >> > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own.
> >> >
> >> > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss<junction at earthlink.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to
> >> >> > write.
> >> >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite
> >> >> > accomplishment.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me...
> >> >>
> >> >> c
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