Re: [New-Poetry] Re:An Era of Détente for Creat ive-Wri ting Programs

[Mark Weiss]

I'm not sure that it's any more hypocritical than a doctor 
complaining about his profession (they all do), a teacher complaining 
about the uselessness of most schools (they mostly do), etc. Perhaps 
the reason that those in other professions tolerate widespread 
criticism from within is that no one doubts the usefulness of what 
they set out to do, regardless of the shortcomings of the 
institutions they work in.

Meanwhile, you might consider that all of us much-proclaimers didn't 
begin to much-proclaim out of some weird coincidence.

At 08:01 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:

>Mark, I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying below.  I 
>was complaining about what a hypocritical blowhard a poet like 
>August Kleinzahler is, who happily accepts cushy teaching gigs and 
>reading invitations from the very institutions he then sneers at so 
>self-righteously. Mostly, it seems, without much familiarity with 
>the life of a regular faculty member in such a program.
>
>Apart from that, concerning the value of MFA programs and the 
>much-proclaimed but little-illustrated "bureaucratization of poetry" 
>you keep mentioning, we should probably just agree to disagree at this point.
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
><mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
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>Poetry Library:
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>==========================================
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>
>
>
>On Jul 2, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>>Are you saying all these things would make him a better poet?
>>
>>A lot of people seem to enjoy their MFA experience, and a lot of 
>>people fatten at the trough. Neither is particularly problematic. 
>>It's the bureaucratization of poetry that's the problem, and it's 
>>an ongoing disaster. Somewbody quoted Richard Hugo. Not to speak 
>>ill of the dead, but where did he come off teaching people how not to write?
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>At 12:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
>>>Yes.  While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's 
>>>irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by 
>>>someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing 
>>>system while shouldering no institutional commitments or 
>>>responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or 
>>>freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty committee; 
>>>never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of 
>>>recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or 
>>>search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting 
>>>writers' series which provides the blowhard in question the 
>>>platform for such lofty dismissals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, 
>>><<mailto:AlMaginnes at aol.com>mailto:AlMaginnes at aol.com><mailto:AlMaginnes at aol.com>AlMaginnes at aol.com 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real 
>>>>if he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money.
>
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