From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Wed Jul 1 08:54:31 2009 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?e=B7ratio?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:27 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a noun sing =?iso-8859-1?q?e=B7ratio_12_=B7_2009__a_noun_sing_e?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=B7ratio_12_=B7_2009__?= a noun sing =?iso-8859-1?q?e=B7ratio_12_2009?= Message-ID: <60382.74.73.225.219.1246452871.squirrel@webmail1.web.com> e? a noun sing e?ratio 12 ?2009 with poetry by David Chikhladze, Gautam Verma, David Rushmer, Anne Fitzgerald, Mary Ann Sullivan, Ruth Lepson, Virginia Konchan, Sandra Huber, Paige H. Taggart, Marcia Arrieta, Sean Patrick Hill, Travis Macdonald, Mark Lamoureux, Camille Martin, Nathan Thompson, Philip Byron Oakes, Cyril Wong, and Derek Henderson E?ratio ? Issue 12.pdf http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/ edited by gregory vincent st. thomasino e? From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 10:49:30 2009 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin Message-ID: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> i'm new to the list. can't find Merwin's 7 liner ... he wrote a beautiful homage to Berryman, ?2nd stanza: ? don't lose your arrogance yet he said you can do that when you're older lose it to soon and you may merely replace it with vanity --- On Tue, 6/30/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 60, Issue 40 To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 2:27 PM Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to ??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at ??? new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Tiny (Graham, David) ???2. Re: Tiny (Halvard Johnson) ???3. RE: Tiny (Skip Fox) ???4. Tny review (Skip Fox) ???5. Re: Tiny (Anny Ballardini) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:58:27 -0500 From: "Graham, David" Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: <979EE10C-92B4-41BB-A51D-30AACD3DD7C6@ripon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think not.? But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to? more concise form if you can. David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" ? wrote: > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > Hal > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David ? > wrote: > W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > > Elegy > > Who would I show it to > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/9b646b36/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:04:05 -0500 From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tiny To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" More concise Merwin: Who'd I show't to? Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Graham, David wrote: > I think not.? But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to more > concise form if you can. > > > > David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > Hal > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David < > GrahamD@ripon.edu> wrote: > >> W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. >> >> Elegy >> >> >> Who would I show it to >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/780bb7e9/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:04:08 -0500 From: "Skip Fox" Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Tiny To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views'" ??? Message-ID: <5DF4C1419CDF40CBAE8850285D9DBCAD@win.louisiana.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elegy Who . . .how . . to -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Graham, David Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:58 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny I think not.? But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to more concise form if you can. David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: Now you're confusing concision with brevity. Hal On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David < GrahamD@ripon.edu> wrote: W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. Elegy Who would I show it to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/c30626b7/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:05:58 -0500 From: "Skip Fox" Subject: [New-Poetry] Tny review To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views'" ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A warm bath with words. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/6450bf76/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:08:35 +0200 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tiny To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? <4b65c2d70906301308m3e34e16dg2c849a91335eb391@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ELEGY.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 238284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/e505edde/ELEGY.jpg ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 60, Issue 40 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/8aa6660e/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 10:54:22 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80AEBCF9-C5BC-448D-A4B4-BE50EFDC4B8C@ripon.edu> David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, "stephen russell" wrote: > > i'm new to the list. can't find Merwin's 7 liner ... he wrote a > beautiful homage to Berryman, > 2nd stanza: > > don't lose your arrogance yet he said > you can do that when you're older > lose it to soon and you may > merely replace it with vanity > > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > wrote: > > From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 60, Issue 40 > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 2:27 PM > > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Tiny (Graham, David) > 2. Re: Tiny (Halvard Johnson) > 3. RE: Tiny (Skip Fox) > 4. Tny review (Skip Fox) > 5. Re: Tiny (Anny Ballardini) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:58:27 -0500 > From: "Graham, David" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <979EE10C-92B4-41BB-A51D-30AACD3DD7C6@ripon.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think not. But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to > more concise form if you can. > > > > David Graham > Grahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" > wrote: > > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > > > Hal > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David > > wrote: > > W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > > > > Elegy > > > > Who would I show it to > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/9b646b36/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:04:05 -0500 > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > More concise Merwin: > > Who'd I show't to? > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Graham, David > wrote: > > > I think not. But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down > to more > > concise form if you can. > > > > > > > > David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu > > ------------------------ > > Home page: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" > wrote: > > > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > > > Hal > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David < > > GrahamD@ripon.edu> wrote: > > > >> W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > >> > >> Elegy > >> > >> > >> Who would I show it to > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/5bb48d5f/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 10:57:25 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's seven words, not seven lines. Poem is below. David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, "stephen russell" wrote: > > i'm new to the list. can't find Merwin's 7 liner ... he wrote a > beautiful homage to Berryman, > 2nd stanza: > > don't lose your arrogance yet he said > you can do that when you're older > lose it to soon and you may > merely replace it with vanity > > --- > > > > Elegy > > > > Who would I show it to > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/c099a37c/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jul 1 11:00:52 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin Message-ID: still one of my favorite poems by Merwin. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/82285fb3/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 11:01:26 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Welcome aboard, Stephen. Our friend David sometimes carries brevity to the heights of nullity. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files@yahoo.com> wrote: > > i'm new to the list. can't find Merwin's 7 liner ... he wrote a beautiful > homage to Berryman, > 2nd stanza: > > don't lose your arrogance yet he said > you can do that when you're older > lose it to soon and you may > merely replace it with vanity > > --- On *Tue, 6/30/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu < > new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu>* wrote: > > > From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu < > new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 60, Issue 40 > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 2:27 PM > > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Tiny (Graham, David) > 2. Re: Tiny (Halvard Johnson) > 3. RE: Tiny (Skip Fox) > 4. Tny review (Skip Fox) > 5. Re: Tiny (Anny Ballardini) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:58:27 -0500 > From: "Graham, David" > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > > > Message-ID: <979EE10C-92B4-41BB-A51D-30AACD3DD7C6@ripon.edu > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think not. But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to > more concise form if you can. > > > > David Graham > Grahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" > > > wrote: > > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > > > Hal > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David > > > > wrote: > > W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > > > > Elegy > > > > Who would I show it to > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/9b646b36/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:04:05 -0500 > From: Halvard Johnson > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > More concise Merwin: > > Who'd I show't to? > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Graham, David > > wrote: > > > I think not. But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to more > > concise form if you can. > > > > > > > > David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu > > ------------------------ > > Home page: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" > > wrote: > > > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > > > Hal > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David < > > > > GrahamD@ripon.edu> > wrote: > > > >> W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > >> > >> Elegy > >> > >> > >> Who would I show it to > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/780bb7e9/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:04:08 -0500 > From: "Skip Fox" > > > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > > > > Message-ID: <5DF4C1419CDF40CBAE8850285D9DBCAD@win.louisiana.edu > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Elegy > > > > Who . . .how . . to > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] > On Behalf Of Graham, David > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:58 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny > > > > I think not. But feel free to edit Merwin's seven word poem down to more > concise form if you can. > > > > > > > > David Graham > > Grahamd@Ripon.edu > > ------------------------ > > Home page: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > > On Jun 30, 2009, at 2:50 PM, "Halvard Johnson" > > wrote: > > Now you're confusing concision with brevity. > > Hal > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Graham, David < > > > GrahamD@ripon.edu> > wrote: > > W. S. Merwin is hard to top in the concision department. > > > > Elegy > > > > Who would I show it to > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/c30626b7/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:05:58 -0500 > From: "Skip Fox" > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Tny review > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > A warm bath with words. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/6450bf76/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:08:35 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tiny > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: > <4b65c2d70906301308m3e34e16dg2c849a91335eb391@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part > -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: ELEGY.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 238284 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090630/e505edde/ELEGY.jpg > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 60, Issue 40 > ****************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/b24fa5f8/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 11:07:26 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: confusing concision with brevity: W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: References: <278084.63608.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Yes. Again, sorry for firing another blank. Big thick fingers, tiny > iPod touchscreen .... David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:02 AM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > Welcome aboard, Stephen. Our friend David sometimes carries brevity > to the heights of nullity. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:49 AM, stephen russell > wrote: > > i'm new to the list. can't find Merwin's 7 liner ... he wrote a > beautiful homage to Berryman, > 2nd stanza: > > don't lose your arrogance yet he said > you can do that when you're older > lose it to soon and you may > merely replace it with vanity > > --- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/02e60bbc/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Jul 1 11:10:47 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Titles In-Reply-To: <200907011308.n61D8RrO001228@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200907011308.n61D8RrO001228@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2009, at 6:08 AM, Bob wrote: > > How about > > Not Yet Titled > NOT YET TITLED An untitled "tiny," all on its own; who needs the poem? demurely, SPX > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 11:23:17 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of Merwin, and the deathless argument about whether anyone besides other poets read poetry, I've had numerous nonpoets try to engage me in conversation about the recent Bill Moyers interview with WSM. But I have not seen it yet. Anyone? David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:01 AM, "AlMaginnes@aol.com" wrote: > still one of my favorite poems by Merwin. > > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/8a26f0ff/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 11:33:45 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for_Creativ?= =?utf-8?q?e-Writing_Programs?= References: <6850C4B2-CBFE-4C0E-954A-5D51499C5717@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <638771CA-C5F8-4C3A-BD6E-AC7B28092AD5@ripon.edu> Begin forwarded message: > > More on the neverending MFA debate. > > David Graham > Grahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Begin forwarded message: > > >> >> http://chronicle.com/free/v55/i40/40programera.htm >> ? An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/78f931a4/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jul 1 11:36:30 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin Message-ID: I listened to the first half (I didn't think I needed to watch two guys leaning over a table talking) while I was working the other morning. I enjoyed it although I sometimes find Moyers' questions a little cloying. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/7733613a/attachment.html From millb at aol.com Wed Jul 1 11:41:30 2009 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBC87989CD62DB-3818-7B07@webmail-stg-m06.sysops.aol.com> Is the interview available somewhere online? Millicent -----Original Message----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin I listened to the first half (I didn't think I needed to watch two guys leaning over a table talking) while I was working the other morning. I enjoyed it although I sometimes find Moyers' questions a little cloying. ? ? Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/436df2d3/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jul 1 11:46:08 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: <8CBC87989CD62DB-3818-7B07@webmail-stg-m06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBC87989CD62DB-3818-7B07@webmail-stg-m06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06262009/profile.html David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:42 AM, "Millicent" wrote: > Is the interview available somewhere online? > > Millicent > > ----- From halvard at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 11:47:52 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry. When Moyers takes on poetry, I get . . . well, all yucky feeling, not to put too fine a point on it. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Graham, David wrote: > Speaking of Merwin, and the deathless argument about whether anyone besides > other poets read poetry, I've had numerous nonpoets try to engage me in > conversation about the recent Bill Moyers interview with WSM. > > But I have not seen it yet. Anyone? > > David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:01 AM, "AlMaginnes@aol.com" > wrote: > > still one of my favorite poems by Merwin. > > ------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipesfor the grill. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/dcb89cae/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 1 13:25:08 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of =?UTF-8?B?RMOpdGVudGUgZm9yIENyZWE=?= =?UTF-8?B?dGl2ZS1Xcml0aW5nIFByb2dyYW1z?= In-Reply-To: <638771CA-C5F8-4C3A-BD6E-AC7B28092AD5@ripon.edu> References: <6850C4B2-CBFE-4C0E-954A-5D51499C5717@ripon.edu> <638771CA-C5F8-4C3A-BD6E-AC7B28092AD5@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4B9BF4.8060206@opus40.org> Do people think that before there were creative writing programs, nobody tried to write like Hemingway, or Eliot, or Edward Thomas, or Dickens? Or that because there were no creative writing programs for singers over the workshop era, no one tried to sing like Merle Haggard? Graham, David wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> >> More on the neverending MFA debate. >> >> David Graham >> Grahamd@Ripon.edu >> ------------------------ >> Home page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> >>> >>> http://chronicle.com/free/v55/i40/40programera.htm >>> ? An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Wed Jul 1 14:35:14 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] public service announcement Message-ID: REMEMBER: Cell Phone Numbers Go Public next month. REMINDER.... all cell phone numbers are being released to telemarketing companies and you will start to receive sales calls. ..YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR THESE CALLS Even if the message is saved on your phone, you will be charged for the minutes to listen to it. To prevent this, call the following number from your cell phone: 1-888-382-1222 It is the National DO NOT CALL list. It will only take a minute of your time. It blocks your number for five (5) years. You must call from the cell phone number you want to have blocked. You cannot call from a different phone number. HELP OTHERS BY PASSING THIS ON TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS.. It takes about 20 seconds. From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Jul 1 16:03:56 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Merwin with Moyers In-Reply-To: <200907011600.n61G06rO004796@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200907011600.n61G06rO004796@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E54F99F-CA8B-4362-9BB6-5CEF2A4A4926@verizon.net> On Jul 1, 2009, at 9:00 AM, David Graham wrote: > > But I have not seen it yet. Anyone? > Haven't yet but will get to it via poor man's Tyvo. Somebody else on the list asked about availability. Out here in Southern California it plays again on July 3rd and 10th at 9 p.m. on KCET. This URL may take you to your local re-broadcast times: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/about/airdates.html on on, SPX From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 1 16:10:44 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_Fwd:_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for_Creative-Writi?= =?utf-8?Q?ng_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4B9BF4.8060206@opus40.org> References: <6850C4B2-CBFE-4C0E-954A-5D51499C5717@ripon.edu><638771CA-C5F8-4C3A-BD6E-AC7B28092AD5@ripon.edu> <4A4B9BF4.8060206@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CBC89F2698FBC1-398-12F8@WEBMAIL-DZ18.sysops.aol.com> A different question, if anyone knows: Given that there has been?boom in MFA Creative Writing programs, both on-campus and non-residency type programs, have their matriculation numbers dropped off noticeably (become a bust)?in the current recessionary period? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs Do people think that before there were creative writing programs, nobody tried to write like Hemingway, or Eliot, or Edward Thomas, or Dickens? Or that because there were no creative writing programs for singers over the workshop era, no one tried to sing like Merle Haggard?? ? Graham, David wrote:? >? >? > Begin forwarded message:? >? >>? >> More on the neverending MFA debate. >>? >> David Graham? >> Grahamd@Ripon.edu ? >> ------------------------? >> Home page:? >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz? >>? >> Begin forwarded message:? >>? >>? >>>? >>> http://chronicle.com/free/v55/i40/40programera.htm? >>> ? An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------? >? > _______________________________________________? > New-Poetry mailing list? > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? > ? -- Tad Richards? Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!? http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Career s-Examiner? ? http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/? http://opusforty.blogspot.com/? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/192b7d43/attachment.html From danthomasglass at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:11:37 2009 From: danthomasglass at gmail.com (Dan Glass) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] public service announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/cell411.asp On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > REMEMBER: Cell Phone Numbers Go Public next month. > > REMINDER.... all cell phone numbers are being released to telemarketing > companies and you will start to receive sales calls. > > ..YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR THESE CALLS Even if the message is saved > on your phone, you will be charged for the minutes to listen to it. > > To prevent this, call the following number from your cell phone: > 1-888-382-1222 > It is the National DO NOT CALL list. It will only take a minute of your > time. It blocks your number for five (5) years. You must call from the > cell phone number you want to have blocked. You cannot call from a > different phone number. > HELP OTHERS BY PASSING THIS ON TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS.. It takes about 20 > seconds. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/b8ec6d52/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jul 1 16:47:31 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Fwd:=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20for=20Creative-Writing=20Programs?= Message-ID: I would shred and burn every poem I've ever written if I could sing like Merle haggard. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/f941e21e/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 17:14:17 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_Fwd=3A_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creativ?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e=2DWriting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <8CBC89F2698FBC1-398-12F8@WEBMAIL-DZ18.sysops.aol.com> References: <6850C4B2-CBFE-4C0E-954A-5D51499C5717@ripon.edu> <638771CA-C5F8-4C3A-BD6E-AC7B28092AD5@ripon.edu> <4A4B9BF4.8060206@opus40.org> <8CBC89F2698FBC1-398-12F8@WEBMAIL-DZ18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907011414v6b74f139x11f8705bc276d823@mail.gmail.com> Wondering that myself. Maybe someone with access to AWP info could shed light on that. Their conferences seem to be as healthy as ever. - Jim On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:10 PM, wrote: > A different question, if anyone knows: Given that there has been boom in > MFA Creative Writing programs, both on-campus and non-residency type > programs, have their matriculation numbers dropped off noticeably (become a > bust) in the current recessionary period? > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TheOldMole > Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2009 1:25 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing > Programs > > Do people think that before there were creative writing programs, nobody > tried to write like Hemingway, or Eliot, or Edward Thomas, or Dickens? Or > that because there were no creative writing programs for singers over the > workshop era, no one tried to sing like Merle Haggard? > > Graham, David wrote: > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > >> > >> More on the neverending MFA debate. >> > >> David Graham > >> Grahamd@Ripon.edu > > >> ------------------------ > >> Home page: > >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >> > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> > >>> > >>> http://chronicle.com/free/v55/i40/40programera.htm > >>> ? An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > Save energy, paper and money -- *get the Green Toolbar > .* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/58e358d1/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 1 17:28:53 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] two performance poets in the news Message-ID: <8CBC8AA1173182A-11E0-B02@WEBMAIL-DF12.sysops.aol.com> Poet Nathan Richardson discusses poetry, performance and publishing June 30, 11:58 PM http://www.examiner.com/x-14609-Richmond-Books-Examiner~y2009m6d30-Poet-Nathan-Richardson-discusses-poetry-performance-and-publishing 'Professor Arturo' Pfister brings his poetry home to New Orleans by Susan Larson, Book editor, The Times-Picayune Wednesday July 01, 2009, 4:00 AM http://www.nola.com/books/index.ssf/2009/07/professor_arturo_pfister_bring.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/4ee806fe/attachment.html From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 17:37:47 2009 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] OBITUARY -SPECIAL ETERNAL SOJOURN ANNOUNCEMENT -THE JACOP OF IWO ROA SLEEPS OFF-PA GA ADELAKUN Message-ID: <5908b9b20907011437y675d7fd5s4f7fe0f6c4659a98@mail.gmail.com> ...WATCH OUT FOR WHY GOOD PEOPLE QUICKLY DIES EVEN AT 78! WHY EVIL PEOPLE LIVE LONGER...excerpts from al\n Islamic preacher's memorial sermon....The angels will be attracting the good people to come to heaven whereas earthly people will want good people to live as long as they are agile enough to witness several generations.On the other hand the heavenly angels will be pushing back the evil people to stay on earth the more so that they will have enough time to prepare for their hellish abode.More interesting and anatomically shocking news from full reflections prior to and after Daddy ADELAKUN'S PASSAGE -1932 -2009.hE'S A RETIREE OF 1ST TELEVISION STATION IN AFRICA-THE THEN WNBS/WNTV -now NATIONAL TELEVISION AUTHORITY.-GBEMI TIJANI MST P.S TEARS GALORE FROM ALL & SUNDRY....ALMOST 1000 FAITHHFULS,MOURNERS AND RELATIONS turned up at the previously low -keyed prayer -which turned out to be a copiously attended FIDAU.The low and the high ,the busy banker and the thouroughly engaged pastors attended.Even though Papa had directed that nothing beyond this Fidau should be done after his demise and he should be buried in an islamic cemetry.What baffled everybody is the freshness of the skin -showing no RIGOR MORTIS -several hours after his mere cell death. His ALJAANA IS ASSURE D -He's a rare muslim.Tolerant with a christian spouse across the years.If any muslim or christian faithful could practice JUST 25% OF THE HOLY QURAN OR THE BIBLE -the world will be better than hitherto.Besides interpersonal and human love will be sustained beyond tit-for tat UTILITARIAN LOVE that prevails in todays materialistic life.ADIEU PA ADELAKUN -ALIAS G.A.G.A. G.A.WE MISSED YOU GREATLY.You re a rare father,resplendently steadfast muslim,highly fecund with fruits of the spirit-amplified in Ga 5 22.Even islamic cleric remarked this virtue of the sleeping giant of IWO ROAD. sUCH FOUR QUALITIES THAT CHARACTERISED HIS LIFE WERE patience,love,humility,consistency in regarding the high & the low.Often he greets first before you bow down.He 's very selfless.He never arrogate himself to anything.He believes everything is for a time and nothing will be carried beyond planet earth. He rarely used the Jeep automobile thats 's freighted for him and his spouse for social outings.He's an epitome of SIMPLICITYAND MORAAL UPRIGHTNESS.hE'S ALOS MISSED AS A FUTURE ROTARY COMMUNITY CORPS FOR HIS INDLEIBLE COMMUNITY SERVICE AND EASY EMPATHY IN INFRASTRUCTURAL LACCK IN FOR MRS RUTH OYINLOYE ADELAKUN THE CHIEF MOURNER,THE ADELAKUN FAMILY,GRANDCHILDREN, AT 12 GBADAMOSI AVENUE IBADAN & FRIENDS LOCALLY & IN GEORGIA ATLANTA USA. GBEMI TIJANI MST1ST JULY 2009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/1a5e3252/attachment.html From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 18:06:49 2009 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] DADDY G.A 'S PASSAGE PREVIEW TO LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE JACOB OF IWO ROAD -IBADAN Message-ID: <5908b9b20907011506y3bc37e4epf3b59f652df53267@mail.gmail.com> OBITUARY -SPECIAL ETERNAL SOJOURN ANNOUNCEMENT -THE JACOP OF IWO ROA SLEEPS OFF-PA GA ADELAKUN WATCH OUT FOR WHY GOOD PEOPLE QUICKLY DIES EVEN AT 78! WHY EVIL PEOPLE LIVE LONGER...excerpts from al\n Islamic preacher's memorial sermon....The angels will be attracting the good people to come to heaven whereas earthly people will want good people to live as long as they are agile enough to witness several generations. On the other hand the heavenly angels will be pushing back the evil people to stay on earth the more so that they will have enough time to prepare for their hellish abode. More interesting and anatomically shocking news from full reflections prior to and after Daddy ADELAKUN'S PASSAGE -1932 -2009.hE'S A RETIREE OF 1ST TELEVISION STATION IN AFRICA-THE THEN WNBS/WNTV -now NATIONAL TELEVISION AUTHORITY.-GBEMI TIJANI MST P.S TEARS GALORE FROM ALL & SUNDRY....ALMOST 1000 FAITHHFULS,MOURNERS AND RELATIONS turned up at the previously low -keyed prayer -which turned out to be a copiously attended FIDAU.The low and the high ,the busy banker and the thoroughly engaged pastors attended. Even though Papa had directed that nothing beyond this Fidau should be done after his demise and he should be buried in an Islamic cemetry.What baffled everybody is the freshness of the skin -showing no RIGOR MORTIS -several hours after his mere cell death. His ALJAANA IS ASSURED D -He's a rare Muslim. Tolerant with a Christian spouse across the years. If any Muslim or Christian faithful could practice JUST 25% OF THE HOLY QURAN OR THE BIBLE -the world will be better than hitherto. Besides interpersonal and human love will be sustained beyond tit-for tat UTILITARIAN LOVE that prevails in today?s materialistic life. ADIEU PA ADELAKUN -ALIAS G.A.G.A. G.A.WE MISSED YOU GREATLY. You re a rare father, resplendently steadfast Muslim, highly fecund with fruits of the spirit-amplified in Ga 5 22.Even Islamic cleric remarked this virtue of the sleeping giant of IWO ROAD. SUCH FOUR QUALITIES THAT CHARACTERISED HIS LIFE WERE patience, love, humility, consistency in regarding the high & the low. Often he greets first before you bow down. He?s very selfless. He never arrogate himself to anything. He believes everything is for a time and nothing will be carried beyond planet earth. He rarely used the Jeep automobile that?s freighted for him and his spouse for social outings. He?s an epitome of SIMPLICITYAND MORAAL UPRIGHTNESS. He?s also MISSED AS A FUTURE ROTARY COMMUNITY CORPS FOR HIS INDELIBLE COMMUNITY SERVICE AND EASY EMPATHY IN INFRASTRUCTURAL LACK IN THE COMMUNITY. FOR MRS RUTH OYINLOYE ADELAKUN THE CHIEF MOURNER, THE ADELAKUN FAMILY, GRANDCHILDREN, AT 12 GBADAMOSI AVENUE IBADAN & FRIENDS LOCALLY & IN GEORGIA ATLANTA USA. GBEMI TIJANI MST1ST JULY 2009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/7627ddeb/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 1 21:07:21 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Muldoon and Colbert Message-ID: <8CBC8C895F9E81C-598-184C@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> I'm probably the only one who missed this, but Paul Muldoon was given the Colbert treatment... http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/231220/june-18-2009/paul-muldoon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/386288ce/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 1 21:53:14 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Writing_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4C130A.8020701@opus40.org> I'd hold out for George Jones. AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > I would shred and burn every poem I've ever written if I could sing > like Merle haggard. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes > for the grill. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jul 1 22:21:46 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Fwd:=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20for=20Creative-Writing=20Programs?= Message-ID: You have a point. Back in 90 I saw George, Merle and Conway Twitty play a show. They each did 40 minutes almost to the second. And, Lord, did those fat women love Conway. Probably the skinny women too, but the ones around us were all plus size waving their Conway nighties that you could buy right there in the hallway. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090701/79bbf6c0/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 1 23:42:04 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Writing_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4C2C8C.60406@opus40.org> Another friend of mine reported seeing the same show. Conway doesn't get the respect he deserves as a stylist. AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > You have a point. Back in 90 I saw George, Merle and Conway Twitty > play a show. They each did 40 minutes almost to the second. And, Lord, > did those fat women love Conway. Probably the skinny women too, but > the ones around us were all plus size waving their Conway nighties > that you could buy right there in the hallway. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes > for the grill. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 2 01:01:40 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Muldoon and Colbert In-Reply-To: <8CBC8C895F9E81C-598-184C@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBC8C895F9E81C-598-184C@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A4C3F34.4080400@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I'm probably the only one who missed this, but Paul Muldoon was given > the Colbert treatment... You think /I/ didn't miss it, Jim? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/c461c9d8/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 2 01:04:35 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Writing_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4C130A.8020701@opus40.org> References: <4A4C130A.8020701@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4C3FE3.6020300@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > I'd hold out for George Jones. I'd be content to merely have kept the voice I had when I was twelve. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 07:30:11 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Muldoon and Colbert In-Reply-To: <4A4C3F34.4080400@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBC8C895F9E81C-598-184C@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> <4A4C3F34.4080400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907020430xcf950bbs7058b2b09693f9ad@mail.gmail.com> Don't tell anybody, but I did find a way to watch the video - from here: http://rauanklassnik.blogspot.com/2009/06/colbert-muldoon.html Our supreme superb Italy has cut out even the possibility of watching Colbert. I think I have no more words. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > I'm probably the only one who missed this, but Paul Muldoon was given the > Colbert treatment... > > You think *I* didn't miss it, Jim? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/d7a96786/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 09:58:26 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W/S/Merwin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40907020658x666f840buaf33c2334daeaec6@mail.gmail.com> David Graham, I saw/heard the entirety of the Bill Moyers' interview with W.S. Merwin. There were four or five instances in which Merwin declined to answer a question, remarking simply that he had no answer ... he had no answer to the specific question. I thought this was quite refreshingly different. (Bill Moyers seemed embarrassed each time this happened; but why?) Bestwishes, S?amas ________ On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Graham, David wrote: > Speaking of Merwin, and the deathless argument about whether anyone > besides other poets read poetry, I've had numerous nonpoets try to engage me > in conversation about the recent Bill Moyers interview with WSM. > > But I have not seen it yet. Anyone? > > David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:01 AM, "AlMaginnes@aol.com" > wrote: > > still one of my favorite poems by Merwin. > > ------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipesfor the grill. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- S?amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/09a492ad/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 11:09:16 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 18, Summer 2009, Now Online! Message-ID: * Hamilton Stone Review*, Issue 18, Summer 2009, Now Online! Poetry by CL Bledsoe, James Grabill, Libby Hart, Nicholas Karavatos, Kathleen Kenny, Sandy McIntosh, Rodney Nelson, and David Woodward. Fiction by Miriam N. Kotzin, Jen Micharlski, Charles Rammelkamp, Grant Tracey, and Joyce Yarrow. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html Submissions: *Hamilton Stone Review *is published three times a year: in June, October, and February. Poetry submissions to *Hamilton Stone Review* are temporarily closed. Fiction submissions may be sent to Lynda Schor at lyndaschor@gmail.com, and nonfiction to Reamy Jansen at reamyjj@gmail.com. No snail mail submissions, please, and it's a good idea to include your work in both the message and an attachment. Please put "HSR submission from [your name]" in your subject line. PLEASE SEND THIS ALONG TO OTHERS Thank you. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/3272d485/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 11:36:16 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Fwd:=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20for=20Creative-Writing=20Programs?= Message-ID: Interesting take on things. I guess it would have been too much to expect that poetry would be discussed in the review. A thought--one reason writing programs are kicked around so much might be the attitude of some faculty and students who seem inclined to agree with critics like McGrath. This gives us the ugly spectacle on someone like Neal Bowers who teaches creative writing for thirty years in a university, then, safely retried, writes a nasty essay about creative writing programs and publishes it in Poetry. as Doc Holliday says in Wyatt Earp, "I myself was a den-tist. I was proud to be den-tist. I did not hide the fact that I was a den-tist." maybe we need a little more of that sort of attitude. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/73027bd2/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 11:49:46 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative-Wri?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <664DB434-65BC-4CDA-86C7-553AABBBC185@ripon.edu> Good points. There's also the phenomenon of the interview with this or that Big Name, who generally takes MFA program money in the form of reading honoraria, the occasional residency, and once in a blue moon a one-semester gilded visiting professorship where the BN gives a couple readings and maybe teaches a workshop. Then tells the interviewer all about the corruption and uselessness of the MFA system, and how writers desperately need to get out into Real Life. . . . At least before his prose catapulted him into best-sellerdom, Robert Bly used to be one of the worst culprits in this biting-the-hand-that- fed-him routine. Usually doesn't mention his own creative writing degree, either. More recently August Kleinzahler has been busy trotting out the cliches in this regard. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:36 AM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > Interesting take on things. I guess it would have been too much to > expect that poetry would be discussed in the review. > > A thought--one reason writing programs are kicked around so much > might be the attitude of some faculty and students who seem > inclined to agree with critics like McGrath. This gives us the ugly > spectacle on someone like Neal Bowers who teaches creative writing > for thirty years in a university, then, safely retried, writes a > nasty essay about creative writing programs and publishes it in > Poetry. as Doc Holliday says in Wyatt Earp, "I myself was a den- > tist. I was proud to be den-tist. I did not hide the fact that I > was a den-tist." maybe we need a little more of that sort of attitude. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/1b02ee76/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 11:51:51 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:30 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Writing=20Programs?= Message-ID: True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/43a50eba/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 11:58:43 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't trust people who refuse to take grant money, or universities that return appropriated funds to their states' legislatures. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 10:51 AM, wrote: > True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if he > practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. > > ------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipesfor the grill. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/db3ddb1b/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 12:09:18 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative-Wri?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing system while shouldering no institutional commitments or responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty committee; never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting writers' series which provides the blowhard in question the platform for such lofty dismissals. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if > he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or > grant money. > > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/fcc9a34c/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 12:40:03 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fogged Clarity [on behalf of Ben Evans] Message-ID: <45562.84999.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The July Issue of the arts review Fogged Clarity (http://www.foggedclarity.com) is up: 3 short films An interview and poetry from Pulitzer Prize finalist Bruce Smith Short fiction from Ryan McCarl and Claire Foster, Poetry and readings from Michael Tyrell and Linda Nemec Foster The music of "The Horse's Ha" An essay by T.S. Eliot scholar Benjamin Lockerd And much more All free and beautiful at www.foggedclarity.com -- Executive Editor, "Fogged Clarity" http://www.foggedclarity.com Ben Evans -- Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ July 2009 Table of Contents Fiction Ryan McCarl The Day-TraderClaire Foster Hurricane Season Poetry Bruce Smith DEVOTION: RED ROOF INNDEVOTION: AL GREENMichael Tyrell The GardenNixonLinda Nemec Foster The Anonymous Woman Describes the RoomateJanuary, 2003Hillary Bartholomew Dali?s Last DreamTobi Cogswell Getting Off the Bus Visual Brandon T. David A Little SecretMichael Fragstein A Wet DayForgetFrancis Raven The World Without Us is BeautifulAesthetic RejectionJulia Haw The Nine Day Wonder Polemics Benjamin Lockerd Religion, Dawson, and T.S. Eliot Aural The Horse?s Ha Of the Cathmawr Yards Interviews Bruce Smith The poet on his life and workJames Elkington On, Of the Cathmawr Yards -- Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/998c7b6a/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 13:02:29 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? Message-ID: How would you scan this line? But our love it was stronger by far than the love c From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Thu Jul 2 13:05:05 2009 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ee01c9fb37$3f21c2c0$bd654840$@edu> But our LOVE/it was STRONG/er by FAR/than the LOVE How would you scan this line? But our love it was stronger by far than the love c _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu Jul 2 13:09:57 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4CE9E5.7070009@opus40.org> Anapestic tetrameter -- regular. Chris Lott wrote: > How would you scan this line? > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 13:19:03 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta Message-ID: Sonnet: La Malcontenta Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/577c90a9/attachment.html From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 13:48:05 2009 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:__[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for_Creative-Writing_P?= =?utf-8?Q?rograms?= In-Reply-To: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> I teach in a community college so the MFA gig looks impossibly sweet and unattainable to me (one day I will post my long and bitter ran about this). In hte reading series I run, I make it a point to only get folks who want to be there. Anyone who acts like a CC is beneath htem goes off hte list immeditely. I might add that over the years, we've had some pretty impressive folks--three Kinglsy Tufts winners, one Pulitzer winner, many others with major prizes and publications.? One of the beauties of my campus is that with hte exception of me and one or two others, thsoe prizes and honros mean nothing, so readers are judged on their ability ot connect with the students.? As ot should be. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs Yes. ?While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing system while shouldering no institutional commitments or responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty committee; never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting writers' series which provides the blowhard in question the platform for such lofty dismi ssals.? ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/64e7f68a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 14:25:48 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907021125j2a3faf64yb4abeee1014ef07f@mail.gmail.com> Jaysoos, Hal. I would change the title. Malcontenta has a naughty hue, something close to stubborn and proud, never satisfied, disobedient. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Sonnet: La Malcontenta > > Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, > who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each > other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, > waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little > > towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her > wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she > tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, > and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, > > but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over > night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids > but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't > eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? > > The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." > It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/54e1683f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 14:34:31 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> <8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907021134x419f52e7q8556ed285469e28a@mail.gmail.com> I really don't know if my mail last night made it to the list, it was late, I was sleepy, I saved to send it today, but could not find it any more. I wanted to say, and I said that _even if I sweated all I could sweat, I loved my MFA program, and as soon as I finished it, I asked Bill Lavender if I could do it all over again. I also took two extra courses which were regularly graded. I loved all the courses except one but because of the professor. We had no feeling one for the other. It hasn't physically taken me anywhere, as a matter I am still here doing the absolutely same things. I am terribly sorry it ended, I feel void, as if I did not have an ideal any more. I paid for my MFA, for my books, trips and everything. I am proud of myself. I feel it gave me just so much that I cannot even know which words to use to describe what I feel. My best, Anny On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:48 PM, wrote: > I teach in a community college so the MFA gig looks impossibly sweet and > unattainable to me (one day I will post my long and bitter ran about this). > In hte reading series I run, I make it a point to only get folks who want to > be there. Anyone who acts like a CC is beneath htem goes off hte list > immeditely. I might add that over the years, we've had some pretty > impressive folks--three Kinglsy Tufts winners, one Pulitzer winner, many > others with major prizes and publications. One of the beauties of my campus > is that with hte exception of me and one or two others, thsoe prizes and > honros mean nothing, so readers are judged on their ability ot connect with > the students. As ot should be. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 12:09 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs > > Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome to be > lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who skims off the > cream of the university creative writing system while shouldering no > institutional commitments or responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore > lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty > committee; never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of > recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or search > committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting writers'20series > which provides the blowhard in question the platform for such lofty > dismissals. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > > True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if he > practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. > > ------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipesfor the grill. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Finding the best videos just got easier. Try the NEW Truveo.com > . > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/22075a42/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 14:38:47 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907021125j2a3faf64yb4abeee1014ef07f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70907021125j2a3faf64yb4abeee1014ef07f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestion, Anny. I know what the word means. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Jaysoos, Hal. > I would change the title. Malcontenta has a naughty hue, something close to > stubborn and proud, never satisfied, disobedient. > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Sonnet: La Malcontenta >> >> Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, >> who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each >> other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, >> waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little >> >> towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her >> wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she >> tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, >> and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, >> >> but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over >> night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids >> but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't >> eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? >> >> The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." >> It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/00bc92b8/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 15:01:40 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70907021125j2a3faf64yb4abeee1014ef07f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907021201x5b1762beq7d2313d0889818ef@mail.gmail.com> Ok, then I understood it right. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion, Anny. I know what the word means. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > >> Jaysoos, Hal. >> I would change the title. Malcontenta has a naughty hue, something close >> to stubborn and proud, never satisfied, disobedient. >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> Sonnet: La Malcontenta >>> >>> Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, >>> who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each >>> other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, >>> waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little >>> >>> towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her >>> wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she >>> tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, >>> and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, >>> >>> but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over >>> night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids >>> but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't >>> eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? >>> >>> The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." >>> It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> >> > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/cc441ce0/attachment.html From obodooha at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 15:08:18 2009 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The July Issue, past contributors In-Reply-To: <7a492c3d0907010959i57668fa7q18782d4457dc3711@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a492c3d0907010959i57668fa7q18782d4457dc3711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *The July Issue of the arts review Fogged Clarity (www.foggedclarity.com) is up. * This month the journal features: *3 short films* *An interview and poetry from Pulitzer Prize finalist Bruce Smith* *Short fiction from Ryan McCarl and Claire Foster *, *Poetry and readings from Michael Tyrelland Linda Nemec Foster * *The music of "The Horse's Ha *" *An essay by T.S. Eliot scholar Benjamin Lockerd* And much more *All free and beautiful at www.foggedclarity.com* -- Executive Editor, "Fogged Clarity" www.foggedclarity.com Ben Evans -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/966b6e6a/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 2 15:15:16 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for_Creative-Writing_Pr?= =?utf-8?Q?ograms?= In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907021134x419f52e7q8556ed285469e28a@mail.gmail.com> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu><8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70907021134x419f52e7q8556ed285469e28a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBC96090EEABAB-98C-EA4@webmail-mf08.sysops.aol.com> Richard Hugo's? early and good defense of Creative Writing programs?(from The Triggering Town)....? http://adilegian.com/hugodefensecreativewriting.htm "A good creative-writing teacher can save a good writer a lot of time. Writing is tough, and many wrong paths can be taken. If we are doing our job, creative-writing teachers are performing a necessary negative function. And if we are good teachers, we should be teaching the writer ways of doing that for himself all his writing life. We teach how not to write and we teach writers to teach themselves how not to write. When we teach how to write, the student had best be on guard." -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs I really don't know if my mail last night made it to the list, it was late, I was sleepy, I saved to send it today, but could not find it any more. I wanted to say, and I said that _even if I sweated all I could sweat, I loved my MFA program, and as soon as I finished it, I asked Bill Lavender if I could do it all over again. I also took two extra courses which were regularly graded. I loved all the courses except one but because of the professor. We had no feeling one for the other. It hasn't physically taken me anywhere, as a matter I am still here doing the absolutely same things. I am terribly sorry it ended, I feel void, as if I did not have an ideal an y more. I paid for my MFA, for my books, trips and everything. I am proud of myself. I feel it gave me just so much that I cannot even know which words to use to describe what I feel. My best, Anny On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:48 PM, wrote: I teach in a community college so the MFA gig looks impossibly sweet and unattainable to me (one day I will post my long and bitter ran about this). In hte reading series I run, I make it a point to only get folks who want to be there. Anyone who acts like a CC is beneath htem goes off hte list immeditely. I might add that over the years, we've had some pretty impressive folks--three Kinglsy Tufts winners, one Pulitzer winner, many others with major prizes and publications.? One of the beauties of my campus is that with hte exception of me and one or two others, thsoe prizes and honros mean nothing, so readers are judged on their ability ot connect with the students.? As ot should be. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs Yes. ?While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing system while shouldering no institutional commitments or responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a department or fa culty committee; never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting writers'20series which provides the blowhard in question the platform for such lofty dismissals.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/89643374/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 15:33:51 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: <04ee01c9fb37$3f21c2c0$bd654840$@edu> Message-ID: That's how I have it. I never sweat these things down further, letting the rest ride in the ear. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Morgan Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:05 PM To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? But our LOVE/it was STRONG/er by FAR/than the LOVE How would you scan this line? But our love it was stronger by far than the love c _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jul 2 16:21:18 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/2/2009 12:02:58 PM Central Daylight Time, chris@chrislott.org writes: > How would you scan this line? > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c Anapestic tetrameter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/9a3ffeec/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 16:29:12 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> <8CBC954634B3EFC-1790-D5C@WEBMAIL-MB11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907021329k39cd9a7qd0d632f3c29170f2@mail.gmail.com> Hear, Hear, to both of youse. Been there, done that. Ask some of the members of this list. I won't berate the spoiled brats of MFAdom, but I'm glad to be clear of even the most trifle engagement with the hypocrisy you point out. - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:48 PM, wrote: > I teach in a community college so the MFA gig looks impossibly sweet and > unattainable to me (one day I will post my long and bitter ran about this). > In hte reading series I run, I make it a point to only get folks who want to > be there. Anyone who acts like a CC is beneath htem goes off hte list > immeditely. I might add that over the years, we've had some pretty > impressive folks--three Kinglsy Tufts winners, one Pulitzer winner, many > others with major prizes and publications. One of the beauties of my campus > is that with hte exception of me and one or two others, thsoe prizes and > honros mean nothing, so readers are judged on their ability ot connect with > the students. As ot should be. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 12:09 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Writing Programs > > Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome to be > lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who skims off the > cream of the university creative writing system while shouldering no > institutional commitments or responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore > lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty > committee; never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of > recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or search > committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting writers'20series > which provides the blowhard in question the platform for such lofty > dismissals. > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/1a0e6cff/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 16:29:44 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How 'bout something sappy with a Tweedy-Bird reference in it? Like "I thought I saw a pussy cat?" On second thought, why don't I save up for a lobotomy? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:39 PM To: Anny Ballardini Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta Thanks for the suggestion, Anny. I know what the word means. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Jaysoos, Hal. I would change the title. Malcontenta has a naughty hue, something close to stubborn and proud, never satisfied, disobedient. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Sonnet: La Malcontenta Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/47a260a6/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 16:45:22 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative-Writ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ing_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <648208b60907021329k39cd9a7qd0d632f3c29170f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83AC414616764DE5B549D04E74299E01@win.louisiana.edu> Re: easy M.F.A. teaching jobs . . . There are different types of programs of course. Where I teach we have a creative writing concentration at the MA and PhD levels, but all of us teach at least sophomore surveys and well as upper-division major-figures courses as well as seminars. A strictly graduate-level workshop in a genre can be expected every 2-3 years. Undergraduate workshops every semester, and combined graduate-undergraduate workshops ever 1 to 2 years. Not to mention committee work, advising, search committees, etc. I?m sure there is a wide spectrum of the kinds of teaching and professional duties in creative writing programs from ones like ours (University of Louisiana at Lafayette) to writer-in-residence positions at Stanford. (By the way, I have no credentials reflecting creative writing. I got a ?straight? literature Ph.D. specializing in twentieth-century American lit.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/c0924690/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 16:57:05 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Writing=20Programs?= Message-ID: Don't get me wrong. if some benighted program asked me to come and teach two whole classes a semester, or even three, for what I'm making now (not that much all you prospective employers!), I'd be there in a heartbeat. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/cd646243/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu Jul 2 17:08:28 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6768ac830907021408m3d6976d5teadcb559956d9031@mail.gmail.com> I'll join the consensus, but look at this: But our love, it was stronger far than that. Now it's straight IP without a word change until the 3rd foot of the old and the 4th foot of the new line. Context! On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 7/2/2009 12:02:58 PM Central Daylight Time, > chris@chrislott.org writes: > > How would you scan this line? > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > > Anapestic tetrameter. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > [] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/e24468d4/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu Jul 2 17:10:18 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: <6768ac830907021408m3d6976d5teadcb559956d9031@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830907021408m3d6976d5teadcb559956d9031@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830907021410q3b187590s996949873e7de8aa@mail.gmail.com> Hmm -- what happened to the carriage returns? I'll join the consensus, but look at this: But our love, it was stronger far than that. Now it's straight IP without a word change until the 3rd foot of the old and the 4th foot of the new line. Context! On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > I'll join the consensus, but look at this: But our love, it was stronger far > than that. Now it's straight IP without a word change until the 3rd foot of > the old and the 4th foot of the new line. Context! On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at > 4:21 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 7/2/2009 12:02:58 PM Central Daylight > Time, > chris@chrislott.org writes: > > How would you scan this line? > > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > > Anapestic > tetrameter. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry > mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > [] [] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/b887aff0/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu Jul 2 17:10:32 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: <6768ac830907021410q3b187590s996949873e7de8aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <6768ac830907021408m3d6976d5teadcb559956d9031@mail.gmail.com> <6768ac830907021410q3b187590s996949873e7de8aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6768ac830907021410w14a71aeo1ce44581ad305567@mail.gmail.com> I give up. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Hmm -- what happened to the carriage returns? I'll join the consensus, but > look at this: But our love, it was stronger far than that. Now it's straight > IP without a word change until the 3rd foot of the old and the 4th foot of > the new line. Context! On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Michael Snider wrote: >> I'll join the consensus, but look at this: But our love, it was stronger > far > than that. Now it's straight IP without a word change until the 3rd > foot of > the old and the 4th foot of the new line. Context! On Thu, Jul 2, > 2009 at > 4:21 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 7/2/2009 12:02:58 PM Central > Daylight > Time, > chris@chrislott.org writes: > > How would you scan this > line? > > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > > > Anapestic > tetrameter. > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry > mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > [] > [] [] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/eee2ebaf/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 17:28:03 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: <04ee01c9fb37$3f21c2c0$bd654840$@edu> Message-ID: Right in there with the ear mites and the Eremites? Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > That's how I have it. I never sweat these things down further, letting the > rest ride in the ear. > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Morgan > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:05 PM > To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? > > But our LOVE/it was STRONG/er by FAR/than the LOVE > > > > How would you scan this line? > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/cacaa9a7/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 17:21:28 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions, Skip. They've been filed. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > How ?bout something sappy with a Tweedy-Bird reference in it? Like ?I > thought I saw a pussy cat?? > > > > On second thought, why don?t I save up for a lobotomy? > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Halvard Johnson > *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:39 PM > *To:* Anny Ballardini > *Cc:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: La Malcontenta > > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Anny. I know what the word means. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jaysoos, Hal. > I would change the title. Malcontenta has a naughty hue, something close to > stubborn and proud, never satisfied, disobedient. > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Sonnet: La Malcontenta > > Nowadays, she is away a lot, away from home, from her kids, > who've learned to deal, to take care of themselves and each > other. She loads her little truck with her wares and drives off, > waving into the rear-view mirror. She tweets them from little > > towns in the countryside where she (on good days) sells her > wares, comes back empty. Her oldest son in Afghanistan, she > tweets him too. He always says, "im ok mom," but she wonders, > and wonders how he could be. She voted for Obama too, > > but now she wonders. On the road a lot and sometimes over > night if the truck isn't empty, she'd like to be home with her kids > but business is business, and if she doesn't sell, the kids don't > eat. There are men . . . well, yes, there have to be men, right? > > The kid in Afghanistan, he tweets her with "hey mom im dyng." > It's the last one. She tweets him a hug and a kiss. > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/68329010/attachment.html From ccooley at overdomain.com Thu Jul 2 17:47:43 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 61, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <200907021848.n62ImbrP030251@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200907021848.n62ImbrP030251@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Can anyone tell me how to determine the sales ranking of books by title on Amazon? Thanks! Crisman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/6ca8b00e/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:03:06 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 4: The Urn In-Reply-To: <648208b60906301452g62dcf2bdu5e7d48ff632efa5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No sudden intake of breath, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/06f497a6/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 18:03:51 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Are you saying all these things would make him a better poet? A lot of people seem to enjoy their MFA experience, and a lot of people fatten at the trough. Neither is particularly problematic. It's the bureaucratization of poetry that's the problem, and it's an ongoing disaster. Somewbody quoted Richard Hugo. Not to speak ill of the dead, but where did he come off teaching people how not to write? Mark At 12:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome >to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who >skims off the cream of the university creative writing system while >shouldering no institutional commitments or responsibilities--never >teaching big sophomore lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing >a department or faculty committee; never advising or counseling >students; never writing letters of recommendation; never serving on >institutional task forces or search committees; and, of course, >never organizing the visiting writers' series which provides the >blowhard in question the platform for such lofty dismissals. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd@ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, >AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > >>True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if >>he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. >> >> >>---------- >>Make your summer sizzle with >>fast and >>easy recipes for the grill. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:13:12 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <648208b60906301452g62dcf2bdu5e7d48ff632efa5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AE88ADDA8BB4F698D587C9C2C283E52@win.louisiana.edu> Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by Berrigan, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Mayer especially, like O'Hara's "Meditations in an Emergency," "In Memory of My Feelings," or Berrigan's "Tambourine Life" or "So Going Around Cities," or Mayer's The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters, etc. Favorite titles anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/abdcf5b9/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu Jul 2 18:16:59 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for___?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4D31DB.10409@opus40.org> I don't even understand the question. He was hired to do the job because he had credentials as a poet and he impressed someone in his job interview, same as anyone else who teaches anything, By all accounts, he was good at his job. Mark Weiss wrote: > Are you saying all these things would make him a better poet? > > A lot of people seem to enjoy their MFA experience, and a lot of > people fatten at the trough. Neither is particularly problematic. It's > the bureaucratization of poetry that's the problem, and it's an > ongoing disaster. Somewbody quoted Richard Hugo. Not to speak ill of > the dead, but where did he come off teaching people how not to write? > > Mark > > At 12:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's irksome >> to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by someone who >> skims off the cream of the university creative writing system while >> shouldering no institutional commitments or responsibilities--never >> teaching big sophomore lit classes or freshman comp; never chairing a >> department or faculty committee; never advising or counseling >> students; never writing letters of recommendation; never serving on >> institutional task forces or search committees; and, of course, never >> organizing the visiting writers' series which provides the blowhard >> in question the platform for such lofty dismissals. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, >> AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: >> >>> True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real if >>> he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or >>> grant money. >>> >>> >>> ---------- >>> Make your summer sizzle with >>> fast and >>> easy recipes for the grill. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:18:09 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__Creative-Wri?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8FB3BF8C23374FD99D38086D0ABDBFF4@win.louisiana.edu> By the way, I think everyone on university faculty is expected to write letters of recommendation. (In the M.F.A. world these are some of the most creative.) :) From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu Jul 2 18:19:00 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <1AE88ADDA8BB4F698D587C9C2C283E52@win.louisiana.edu> References: <1AE88ADDA8BB4F698D587C9C2C283E52@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - "The Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The Comedian as the Letter C." Skip Fox wrote: > > Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by > Berrigan, Ashbery, O?Hara, and Mayer especially, like O?Hara?s > ?Meditations in an Emergency,? ?In Memory of My Feelings,? or > Berrigan?s ?Tambourine Life? or ?So Going Around Cities,? or Mayer?s > /The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters/, etc. > > Favorite titles anyone? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From halvard at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:23:40 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> References: <1AE88ADDA8BB4F698D587C9C2C283E52@win.louisiana.edu> <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> Message-ID: I kind of like Sonnet LVIII by what'shisname. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:19 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - "The > Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The Comedian as > the Letter C." > > Skip Fox wrote: > >> >> Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by >> Berrigan, Ashbery, O?Hara, and Mayer especially, like O?Hara?s ?Meditations >> in an Emergency,? ?In Memory of My Feelings,? or Berrigan?s ?Tambourine >> Life? or ?So Going Around Cities,? or Mayer?s /The Desires of Mothers to >> Please Others in Letters/, etc. >> >> Favorite titles anyone? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/a561ba12/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:30:09 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7221370363C84B76BEC79B2277A18B25@win.louisiana.edu> I think the NY School of poets read Stevens well. Esp. Ashbery. An interesting thesis might even propose that Stevens' titling (esp. the ones you mentioned) influenced the NY Poets' titles. The NY School just torqued them with a wilder humor. The ones you mentioned are all lushly descriptive (like "Sea Surface" for the description of the world itself, which also established the bounds of the poem in one sense) or very "smart" (I'm trying to avoid the term "intellectual") (as "The Palm" is at mind's end as both world and self, tree and hand, the actual and fortune's fleshy sign). Beautiful examples. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:19 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - "The Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The Comedian as the Letter C." Skip Fox wrote: > > Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by > Berrigan, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Mayer especially, like O'Hara's > "Meditations in an Emergency," "In Memory of My Feelings," or > Berrigan's "Tambourine Life" or "So Going Around Cities," or Mayer's > /The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters/, etc. > > Favorite titles anyone? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:37:08 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__Creative-Wri?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <8FB3BF8C23374FD99D38086D0ABDBFF4@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <120B3191671240958CA3584301539606@win.louisiana.edu> "There's such a blast of mediocre poetry these days," I've told grad students, "you have to pay someone to read the stuff. That's why they invented the M.F.A." I don't believe it, of course. I think this is a remarkable time in terms of highly intelligent and artistic writing. Great time to be alive. A new world to open with every good, new writer. (Of course, a lot of people learning means a great variety in terms of quality.) From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:41:19 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: <04ee01c9fb37$3f21c2c0$bd654840$@edu> Message-ID: <648208b60907021541wc8b5940x22be74018fbd6ec@mail.gmail.com> Or, dem bones . . . - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Right in there with the ear mites and the Eremites? > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> That's how I have it. I never sweat these things down further, letting the >> rest ride in the ear. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Morgan >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:05 PM >> To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? >> >> But our LOVE/it was STRONG/er by FAR/than the LOVE >> >> >> >> How would you scan this line? >> >> But our love it was stronger by far than the love >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/c4dd6736/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:45:09 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <7221370363C84B76BEC79B2277A18B25@win.louisiana.edu> References: <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> <7221370363C84B76BEC79B2277A18B25@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <648208b60907021545p30faef2dm7e4a62e888bca410@mail.gmail.com> Or, in a totally different direction: titles bigger (in any respect) than the poems themselves. - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > I think the NY School of poets read Stevens well. Esp. Ashbery. An > interesting thesis might even propose that Stevens' titling (esp. the ones > you mentioned) influenced the NY Poets' titles. The NY School just torqued > them with a wilder humor. > > The ones you mentioned are all lushly descriptive (like "Sea Surface" for > the description of the world itself, which also established the bounds of > the poem in one sense) or very "smart" (I'm trying to avoid the term > "intellectual") (as "The Palm" is at mind's end as both world and self, > tree > and hand, the actual and fortune's fleshy sign). Beautiful examples. > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:19 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title > > Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - > "The Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The > Comedian as the Letter C." > > Skip Fox wrote: > > > > Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by > > Berrigan, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Mayer especially, like O'Hara's > > "Meditations in an Emergency," "In Memory of My Feelings," or > > Berrigan's "Tambourine Life" or "So Going Around Cities," or Mayer's > > /The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters/, etc. > > > > Favorite titles anyone? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/79f5e779/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:50:43 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <648208b60907021545p30faef2dm7e4a62e888bca410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In a way Ashbery's "Variations, Calypso and Fugue on a Theme of Ella Wheeler Wilcox" is much greater than the poem which does, however, go on for several pages. (Brilliant to have included in his Selected.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of James Cervantes Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:45 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title Or, in a totally different direction: titles bigger (in any respect) than the poems themselves. - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Skip Fox wrote: I think the NY School of poets read Stevens well. Esp. Ashbery. An interesting thesis might even propose that Stevens' titling (esp. the ones you mentioned) influenced the NY Poets' titles. The NY School just torqued them with a wilder humor. The ones you mentioned are all lushly descriptive (like "Sea Surface" for the description of the world itself, which also established the bounds of the poem in one sense) or very "smart" (I'm trying to avoid the term "intellectual") (as "The Palm" is at mind's end as both world and self, tree and hand, the actual and fortune's fleshy sign). Beautiful examples. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:19 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - "The Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The Comedian as the Letter C." Skip Fox wrote: > > Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by > Berrigan, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Mayer especially, like O'Hara's > "Meditations in an Emergency," "In Memory of My Feelings," or > Berrigan's "Tambourine Life" or "So Going Around Cities," or Mayer's > /The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters/, etc. > > Favorite titles anyone? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/083ac0e3/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Jul 2 18:55:09 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why can't I post from home? Only the office. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So I get to listen to everyone over a weekend (which is great) but can never respond (which might be good for others on the list), but it leaves me chomping at a virtual bit. Part of the divine plan? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/00c71f4e/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:55:56 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: References: <648208b60907021545p30faef2dm7e4a62e888bca410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907021555o4b6d937v83b5c8e645fce433@mail.gmail.com> Ditto, and for me it's because he did better with the variations aspect than the fugue. - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > In a way Ashbery?s ?Variations, Calypso and Fugue on a Theme of Ella > Wheeler Wilcox? is much greater than the poem which *does*, however, go on > for several pages. (Brilliant to have included in his *Selected*.) > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *James Cervantes > *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:45 PM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title > > > > Or, in a totally different direction: titles bigger (in any respect) than > the poems themselves. > > > > - Jim > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > > I think the NY School of poets read Stevens well. Esp. Ashbery. An > interesting thesis might even propose that Stevens' titling (esp. the ones > you mentioned) influenced the NY Poets' titles. The NY School just torqued > them with a wilder humor. > > The ones you mentioned are all lushly descriptive (like "Sea Surface" for > the description of the world itself, which also established the bounds of > the poem in one sense) or very "smart" (I'm trying to avoid the term > "intellectual") (as "The Palm" is at mind's end as both world and self, > tree > and hand, the actual and fortune's fleshy sign). Beautiful examples. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:19 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title > > Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? If so, I'll go with Stevens - > "The Palm at the End of the Mind," "Sea Surface Full of Clouds," "The > Comedian as the Letter C." > > Skip Fox wrote: > > > > Ted Berrigan wrote that titles should be tiny poems. I love those by > > Berrigan, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Mayer especially, like O'Hara's > > "Meditations in an Emergency," "In Memory of My Feelings," or > > Berrigan's "Tambourine Life" or "So Going Around Cities," or Mayer's > > /The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters/, etc. > > > > Favorite titles anyone? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/d207c36c/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:58:49 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why can't I post from home? Only the office. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60907021558j3fe594c8mb870136e8a42ba19@mail.gmail.com> Subscribed under a different address than home? Something your home isp puts in that the school network doesn't? - Jim On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > So I get to listen to everyone over a weekend (which is great) but can > never respond (which might be good for others on the list), but it leaves me > chomping at a virtual bit. Part of the divine plan? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/a7a1cb95/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu Jul 2 19:07:37 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How would you scan this line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6768ac830907021607n47491502x66cb9b9b7f14d37d@mail.gmail.com> one last try, since I haven't been able to reproduce the weirdness after restarting -- anapestic tetrameter, as others have said. But the words make anapests because of the whole line - the same words tweaked only after the 7th syllable make a perfectly regular IP line: But our love, it was stronger far than that. My apologies for all the noise On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 7/2/2009 12:02:58 PM Central Daylight Time, > chris@chrislott.org writes: > > How would you scan this line? > > But our love it was stronger by far than the love > > c > > Anapestic tetrameter. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 19:14:56 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I have a couple of friends who studied with Hugo and spoke of it as a life changing experience. He certainly had the credentials to be hired by a university--advanced degree, a couple of books with good publishers, and his subsequent career more than justified whatever gamble they took in hiring him from the business world. His book THE TRIGGERING TOWN may be the best book I've read yet about writing and teaching poetry. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/7365bb3e/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 2 20:37:54 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of the Small Poem. Chapter 5: The Title In-Reply-To: <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> References: <1AE88ADDA8BB4F698D587C9C2C283E52@win.louisiana.edu> <4A4D3254.3020607@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4D52E2.4080107@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > Are we allowed to mention Wilshberians? When haven't you, Mole? --Bob, a sometime Wilshberian From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 19:28:30 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: His credentials were better than Melville's or Dickinson's or for that matter Shakespeare's. Credentials are a bureaucratic necessity. Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to write. There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite accomplishment. Mark At 07:14 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >I have a couple of friends who studied with Hugo and spoke of it as >a life changing experience. He certainly had the credentials to be >hired by a university--advanced degree, a couple of books with good >publishers, and his subsequent career more than justified whatever >gamble they took in hiring him from the business world. His book THE >TRIGGERING TOWN may be the best book I've read yet about writing and >teaching poetry. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 20:01:52 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3AAn_Era_of_D=E9tente_for___Creat?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Mark, I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying below. I was complaining about what a hypocritical blowhard a poet like August Kleinzahler is, who happily accepts cushy teaching gigs and reading invitations from the very institutions he then sneers at so self- righteously. Mostly, it seems, without much familiarity with the life of a regular faculty member in such a program. Apart from that, concerning the value of MFA programs and the much- proclaimed but little-illustrated "bureaucratization of poetry" you keep mentioning, we should probably just agree to disagree at this point. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 2, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Are you saying all these things would make him a better poet? > > A lot of people seem to enjoy their MFA experience, and a lot of > people fatten at the trough. Neither is particularly problematic. > It's the bureaucratization of poetry that's the problem, and it's > an ongoing disaster. Somewbody quoted Richard Hugo. Not to speak > ill of the dead, but where did he come off teaching people how not > to write? > > Mark > > At 12:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's >> irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by >> someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing >> system while shouldering no institutional commitments or >> responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or >> freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty committee; >> never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of >> recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or >> search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting >> writers' series which provides the blowhard in question the >> platform for such lofty dismissals. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, >> AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: >> >>> True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real >>> if he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university >>> or grant money. >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/545ffc21/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 20:31:34 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hugo & triggering towns Message-ID: <086EC54A-2DC9-4F87-B531-171AE9CEA67E@ripon.edu> If the testimony of several generations of students is any indication, Hugo was not just a good teacher, but one of those rare presences who routinely changed lives. His essays about teaching and writing in *The Triggering Town* are some of the best things I've seen, and they certainly changed my life, even though I never studied under Hugo. In his essays Hugo managed to unite an appealing playfulness and irreverence about the process with utter seriousness about the art. He also offered solid nuts-and-bolts advice about craft without being too doctrinaire or prescriptive, something many powerful teachers cannot manage. "Writing Off the Subject" and the title essay of *The Triggering Town* can be read here: http://ualr.edu/rmburns/RB/hugosubj.html http://ualr.edu/rmburns/RB/hugotrig.html It's sad that Hugo's reputation as a poet seems to have faded a lot since he left the scene. His own poems remain stranger and more twisty than their reputation in some quarters would suggest. He reminds me of Frost in that regard. The Freaks at Spurgin Road Field The dim boy claps because the others clap. The polite word, handicapped, is muttered in the stands. Isn't it wrong, the way the mind moves back. One whole day I sit, contrite, dirt, L.A. Union Station, '46, sweating through last night. The dim boy claps because the others clap. Score, 5 to 3. Pitcher fading badly in the heat. Isn't it wrong to be or not be spastic? Isn't it wrong, the way the mind moves back. I'm laughing at a neighbor girl beaten to scream by a savage father and I'm ashamed to look. The dim boy claps because the others clap. The score is always close, the rally always short. I've left more wreckage than a quake. Isn't it wrong, the way the mind moves back. The afflicted never cheer in unison. Isn't it wrong, the way the mind moves back to stammering pastures where the picnic should have worked. The dim boy claps because the others clap. --Richard Hugo ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/e1c118eb/attachment.html From millb at aol.com Thu Jul 2 20:52:20 2009 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] OT Save the Libraries Message-ID: <8CBC98FA772527E-21A4-ABBD@webmail-stg-m06.sysops.aol.com> Greetings, One of my friends is leading a campaign to keep Bay Area (northern Calif) libraries open 5 days a week (rather than the 2-3 proposed days): Building and sustaining an effective library advocacy network through ongoing recruitment, clear structure and regular communication. Of course he's looking for moral support, but he's also looking for poems and stories about the impact of libraries (like how someone learned to read or how the library had a positive impact).?He is particularly looking for writers from the Bay Area or those with a connection to?Oakland/SF. If you have a real life story or poem on this topic to share, please send them to Patrick Camacho @ save-the-libraries@live.com?or you can send them to me and I will forward them to him.? Thanks in advance! Open Libraries Open Minds Blog: http://savethelibraries.spaces.live.com STL United We Serve STL Organizing for America ? Thanks! Millicent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/0ff4c18f/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 21:07:43 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hugo & triggering towns Message-ID: Hugo was one of my early poetic heroes and one of the poets who shows me something new each time I return to him. I reread all or part of MAKING CERTAIN IT GOES ON at least once a year. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/dc0aa8d2/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 21:09:14 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I guess I'm not sure what you mean by showing people how not to write. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/91758460/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 21:09:54 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_Re:An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for?= Creat ive-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure that it's any more hypocritical than a doctor complaining about his profession (they all do), a teacher complaining about the uselessness of most schools (they mostly do), etc. Perhaps the reason that those in other professions tolerate widespread criticism from within is that no one doubts the usefulness of what they set out to do, regardless of the shortcomings of the institutions they work in. Meanwhile, you might consider that all of us much-proclaimers didn't begin to much-proclaim out of some weird coincidence. At 08:01 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Mark, I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying below. I >was complaining about what a hypocritical blowhard a poet like >August Kleinzahler is, who happily accepts cushy teaching gigs and >reading invitations from the very institutions he then sneers at so >self-righteously. Mostly, it seems, without much familiarity with >the life of a regular faculty member in such a program. > >Apart from that, concerning the value of MFA programs and the >much-proclaimed but little-illustrated "bureaucratization of poetry" >you keep mentioning, we should probably just agree to disagree at this point. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd@ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Jul 2, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Are you saying all these things would make him a better poet? >> >>A lot of people seem to enjoy their MFA experience, and a lot of >>people fatten at the trough. Neither is particularly problematic. >>It's the bureaucratization of poetry that's the problem, and it's >>an ongoing disaster. Somewbody quoted Richard Hugo. Not to speak >>ill of the dead, but where did he come off teaching people how not to write? >> >>Mark >> >>At 12:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >>>Yes. While I don't teach in an MFA program, I imagine it's >>>irksome to be lectured on how cushy and safe one's life is by >>>someone who skims off the cream of the university creative writing >>>system while shouldering no institutional commitments or >>>responsibilities--never teaching big sophomore lit classes or >>>freshman comp; never chairing a department or faculty committee; >>>never advising or counseling students; never writing letters of >>>recommendation; never serving on institutional task forces or >>>search committees; and, of course, never organizing the visiting >>>writers' series which provides the blowhard in question the >>>platform for such lofty dismissals. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:51 AM, >>><mailto:AlMaginnes@aol.com>AlMaginnes@aol.com >>>wrote: >>> >>>>True. August Kleinzhaler might find "real life" a lot more real >>>>if he practiced what he preached and didn't take any university or grant money. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 21:12:23 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm quoting Hugo as cited a few steps back. To the effect that no one can teach someone how to write, but you can teach people how not to write. As I understood him, he was suggesting limits on the down side. Violation of writerly decorum has been one of the great forces in literature. It would be a shame to teach too much politeness. At 09:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >I guess I'm not sure what you mean by showing people how not to write. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 21:14:58 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I think he was referring to helping students not write shitty poems. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/70a9d9e2/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 21:38:27 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creat_ive-Wr?= =?iso-8859-1?q?i_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <62EB6333-7A19-4A96-B371-48D829AF67F2@ripon.edu> I see you don't agree with my offer of agreeing to disagree, Mark. Well, I can't agree with that. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm not sure that it's any more hypocritical than a doctor > complaining about his profession (they all do), a teacher > complaining about the uselessness of most schools (they mostly do), > etc. Perhaps the reason that those in other professions tolerate > widespread criticism from within is that no one doubts the > usefulness of what they set out to do, regardless of the > shortcomings of the institutions they work in. > > Meanwhile, you might consider that all of us much-proclaimers > didn't begin to much-proclaim out of some weird coincidence. > > At 08:01 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: > >> Mark, I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying below. >> I was complaining about what a hypocritical blowhard a poet like >> August Kleinzahler is, who happily accepts cushy teaching gigs and >> reading invitations from the very institutions he then sneers at >> so self-righteously. Mostly, it seems, without much familiarity >> with the life of a regular faculty member in such a program. >> >> Apart from that, concerning the value of MFA programs and the much- >> proclaimed but little-illustrated "bureaucratization of poetry" >> you keep mentioning, we should probably just agree to disagree at >> this point. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/d92d05a4/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 21:40:32 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "A good creative-writing teacher can save a good writer a lot of time. Writing is tough, and many wrong paths can be taken. If we are doing our job, creative-writing teachers are performing a necessary negative function. And if we are good teachers, we should be teaching the writer ways of doing that for himself all his writing life. We teach how not to write and we teach writers to teach themselves how not to write. When we teach how to write, the student had best be on guard." Right. I'm suggesting that while that might help make the incompetent acceptable it won't produce much new. There are no wrong paths, just paths explored with insufficient thoroughness. Students tend to try to write well. If they're going to find out what they have to say and how to say it they need to write worse. But that's a long process, too long for hiring and prize committees. Did you know that there are presses that charge for reading unsolicited manuscripts? And that people are willing to pay? Publication is a step up the job and salary ladder. For those with good manners. Mark At 09:14 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >I think he was referring to helping students not write shitty poems. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 21:42:46 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creat ive-Wr i ting Programs In-Reply-To: <62EB6333-7A19-4A96-B371-48D829AF67F2@ripon.edu> References: <032F46B4-5AF7-4D15-ADE1-A671C98DACD7@ripon.edu> <62EB6333-7A19-4A96-B371-48D829AF67F2@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm being a good boy. Notice that I'm not bringing up examples. At 09:38 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >I see you don't agree with my offer of agreeing to disagree, >Mark. Well, I can't agree with that. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd@ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>I'm not sure that it's any more hypocritical than a doctor >>complaining about his profession (they all do), a teacher >>complaining about the uselessness of most schools (they mostly do), >>etc. Perhaps the reason that those in other professions tolerate >>widespread criticism from within is that no one doubts the >>usefulness of what they set out to do, regardless of the >>shortcomings of the institutions they work in. >> >> >>Meanwhile, you might consider that all of us much-proclaimers >>didn't begin to much-proclaim out of some weird coincidence. >> >> >>At 08:01 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> >>>Mark, I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying >>>below. I was complaining about what a hypocritical blowhard a >>>poet like August Kleinzahler is, who happily accepts cushy >>>teaching gigs and reading invitations from the very institutions >>>he then sneers at so self-righteously. Mostly, it seems, without >>>much familiarity with the life of a regular faculty member in such a program. >>> >>> >>>Apart from that, concerning the value of MFA programs and the >>>much-proclaimed but little-illustrated "bureaucratization of >>>poetry" you keep mentioning, we should probably just agree to >>>disagree at this point. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 22:12:42 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to write. > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite > accomplishment. "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... c From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 22:17:13 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:14 PM, wrote: > I think he was referring to helping students not write shitty poems. Precisely. I think Hugo would actually agree with the thrust of Mark's argument were he alive to participate. In fact, I think the Hugo quote directly supports his essential contention. Weird. c From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 22:27:37 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a Rimbaud, or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to write. > > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite > > accomplishment. > >"Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 22:32:34 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20Creat=20ive-Wr=20i=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: Maybe some examples would help.As David pointed out there's plenty of vague criticism of writing programs out there, but very little that is specific or that holds much water on closer inspection. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/38c4e6c6/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 22:34:49 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: Rimbaud studied with Verlaine. Ginsberg was educated by Mark Van Doren and Lionel Trilling. Dickinson was a once in a century genius and there's no accounting for that. About Olson--well, I've never been able to read him with any pleasure, so my opinion is probably worthless. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/914309ea/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 22:39:44 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Studied with in a different context. We all learn from others. The MFA program is a very big change--an industry where before it was obsessin fed by casual contacts. At 10:34 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Rimbaud studied with Verlaine. Ginsberg was educated by Mark Van >Doren and Lionel Trilling. Dickinson was a once in a century genius >and there's no accounting for that. About Olson--well, I've never >been able to read him with any pleasure, so my opinion is probably worthless. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 22:44:15 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: How so? And what program did you attend? **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/9bafefd7/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu Jul 2 22:46:08 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for___?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4D70F0.9070302@opus40.org> A life-changing experience, as Al Maginnes testifies (at second hand) is more than the cultivation of a polite accomplishment, although there are worse things to cultivate. Hugo was by many accounts a great teacher. I'll second Al on The Triggering Town, my favorite as well. He was modest, as was Donald Justice, whom I can attest to as a great teacher, and described his accomplishments modestly. Paradigm shifts are pretty rare, and I would guess that paradigm shifting cannot be taught, but someone who has been taught not to get in his own way might have as good a shot as the next guy at shifting a paradim or two. Mark Weiss wrote: > His credentials were better than Melville's or Dickinson's or for that > matter Shakespeare's. Credentials are a bureaucratic necessity. > > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to > write. There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a > polite accomplishment. > > Mark > > At 07:14 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> I have a couple of friends who studied with Hugo and spoke of it as a >> life changing experience. He certainly had the credentials to be >> hired by a university--advanced degree, a couple of books with good >> publishers, and his subsequent career more than justified whatever >> gamble they took in hiring him from the business world. His book THE >> TRIGGERING TOWN may be the best book I've read yet about writing and >> teaching poetry. >> >> ---------- >> Make your summer sizzle with >> fast and easy >> recipes for the grill. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 2 22:49:19 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative-Wri?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24B48A2C-5B80-4CF6-9E23-01DE304CADC6@ripon.edu> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... > > c ==================== I suffered a paradigm shift once, but with proper diet & exercise I got over it. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/c8ec4b41/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 22:49:23 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:35 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I worked with Justice briefly. A terrific poet, a good teacher and, more important, a very nice man. My wife still speaks of him with great fondness because in the name-tag staring maw of AWP (she isn't a writer; we used to use AWP as a mini vacation) he spent some time talking to her and told her some great stories. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/06753da7/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 22:51:21 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I thoguth they came in twos--"pair a dime shifts." Something a working girl might toss on between clients. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/2794f2ef/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 23:12:59 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free. Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than trying TO teach someone to write good poems. And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they weren't really capable of doing so in the first place. c On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a Rimbaud, > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. > > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> > >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to >> > write. >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite >> > accomplishment. >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 23:15:22 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creat ive-Wr i ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In person, sure, but I'm not about to insult people in a public forum. Look, real simple. Some people get MFAs because they want to, with no expectations, but most, especially the younger cohort, hope for a career. The lucky ones get teaching or publishing careers and pass on what they've learned and reward writers whose work meets the criteria they've been taught. Almost no one who doesn't have an MFA gets in those doors. I know that's an oversimplification, but you get my drift. So the field narrows. This is equally true among the avant garde or whatever term you prefer. Diversity, risk-taking, tends to get lost. It's not a question of whether teaching in a university is real life. It's one kind of real life. Melville, speaking through Ishmael, says something like "A whale ship was my Harvard College." Worked for him, but nobody wants a literary culture in which all writers are sailors. Whether Hugo or Justice were nice people or good poets or great teachers is beside the point. I'm not criticizing them. The problem is systemic. It's not limited to literature, natch. Lots of trades that used to be un-degreed now require more and more paper. Seems to be the way the country's going. But that's just an inconvenience in other fields. There are no MFA programs in most of the world, by the way. I know most about Latin America. Literature seems to be thriving there despite the lack. At 10:32 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Maybe some examples would help.As David pointed out there's plenty >of vague criticism of writing programs out there, but very little >that is specific or that holds much water on closer inspection. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 23:18:46 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creat=20ive-Wr=20i=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: Well you convinced me, man. I'm going to hang out my lawyer/brain surgeon shingle Monday. Got to pay better and since I have a three day weekend I can read pretty much all I need to know about both fields. maybe I can even effect a paradigm change in brain surgery. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/2b5b2235/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 23:19:32 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an official literary culture. OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it or misread it. I have proofreading to do. Mark At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free. > >Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach >someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past >writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least >it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than >trying TO teach someone to write good poems. > >And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of >paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they >weren't really capable of doing so in the first place. > >c > >On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a Rimbaud, > > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. > > > > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > > >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to > >> > write. > >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite > >> > accomplishment. > >> > >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... > >> > >> c > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 23:20:13 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creat ive-Wr i ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't forget to wash your hands. At 11:18 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Well you convinced me, man. I'm going to hang out my lawyer/brain >surgeon shingle Monday. Got to pay better and since I have a three >day weekend I can read pretty much all I need to know about both >fields. maybe I can even effect a paradigm change in brain surgery. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 23:23:53 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creat=20ive-Wr=20i=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: You speak as if education is a form of brain washing--"the criteria they've been taught." For most education is ongoing. There are poems and poets I love now that I wouldn't have looked at twice in my grad school days--and many who I thought hung the moon back then who have fallen a notch or two in my eyes. The criteria changes all the time for those who are honestly engaged. Honestly, the more you go on about this, the less credible you sound. You're basically making the same tired arguments that have been made since the 70's. From a fan of paradigm shifts I would expect something a bit more original. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/09111053/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 2 23:24:33 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20=20Creat=20ive-Wr=20i=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: Nah. that's part of my radical new approach to surgery. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090702/39b64055/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 23:37:46 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, angry at the Official Verse Culture stifling all those poor writers who would've been great if they'd just not been subjected to the brainwashing of the moribund literary elite. Poor wilting flowers all. Just as you maintain that whether X was a good teacher or not is beside the point, so is the fact that places without creative writing programs have a thriving literature... because places with them do too. I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue myself... not because of creative writing programs in particular, but because the good teachers in those programs and everywhere else in higher ed are working in a broken system. One from which there is no real escape and which will suffer no revolution. c On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an official > literary culture. > > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it or > misread it. I have proofreading to do. > > Mark > > > > At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free. >> >> Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach >> someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past >> writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least >> it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than >> trying TO teach someone to write good poems. >> >> And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of >> paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they >> weren't really capable of doing so in the first place. >> >> c >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a >> > Rimbaud, >> > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. >> > >> > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to >> >> > write. >> >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite >> >> > accomplishment. >> >> >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... >> >> >> >> c >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From junction at earthlink.net Thu Jul 2 23:50:25 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: first paragraph: Nope. As far as I know, MFAs or their equivalent only exist in English-speaking countries and are only entrenched in this one. You're apparently more optimistic about our literary culture than I am. You may note that I've avoided ad homina. You might want to do the same. At 11:37 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, angry at the Official Verse >Culture stifling all those poor writers who would've been great if >they'd just not been subjected to the brainwashing of the moribund >literary elite. Poor wilting flowers all. > >Just as you maintain that whether X was a good teacher or not is >beside the point, so is the fact that places without creative writing >programs have a thriving literature... because places with them do >too. > >I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue myself... not because of >creative writing programs in particular, but because the good teachers >in those programs and everywhere else in higher ed are working in a >broken system. One from which there is no real escape and which will >suffer no revolution. > >c > >On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an official > > literary culture. > > > > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it or > > misread it. I have proofreading to do. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free. > >> > >> Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach > >> someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past > >> writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least > >> it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than > >> trying TO teach someone to write good poems. > >> > >> And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of > >> paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they > >> weren't really capable of doing so in the first place. > >> > >> c > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a > >> > Rimbaud, > >> > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. > >> > > >> > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to > >> >> > write. > >> >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite > >> >> > accomplishment. > >> >> > >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... > >> >> > >> >> c > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Thu Jul 2 23:59:24 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is surmising you are a Bernsteinian an ad hominem? If so, I apologize. It's just that, with respect, you sound just like him. Of course his contention about the "OVC" is a bit questionable now that he teaches in the academy or hypocritically sucks at the academy's teat, depending on one's perspective. I'm optimistic about literary culture because there's so much vitality there in this country as well as others. One can always argue there would be more without MFA programs, but it's awfully hard to prove. On the other hand, one can point to writers from within and without that are doing amazing things, thus these endless debates. c On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Re: first paragraph: Nope. > > As far as I know, MFAs or their equivalent only exist in English-speaking > countries and are only entrenched in this one. You're apparently more > optimistic about our literary culture than I am. > > You may note that I've avoided ad homina. You might want to do the same. > > At 11:37 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, angry at the Official Verse >> Culture stifling all those poor writers who would've been great if >> they'd just not been subjected to the brainwashing of the moribund >> literary elite. Poor wilting flowers all. >> >> Just as you maintain that whether X was a good teacher or not is >> beside the point, so is the fact that places without creative writing >> programs have a thriving literature... because places with them do >> too. >> >> I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue myself... not because of >> creative writing programs in particular, but because the good teachers >> in those programs and everywhere else in higher ed are working in a >> broken system. One from which there is no real escape and which will >> suffer no revolution. >> >> c >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an >> > official >> > literary culture. >> > >> > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore it >> > or >> > misread it. I have proofreading to do. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > >> > >> > At 11:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> >> As has already been mentioned, these poets weren't all teacher free. >> >> >> >> Further, I fail to see how Hugo's position that you can't teach >> >> someone to write good poems but you can help them avoid and get past >> >> writing crappy ones stands in the way of "paradigm shifts." At least >> >> it certainly seems more in line with what you appear to desire than >> >> trying TO teach someone to write good poems. >> >> >> >> And, really, if those who we assume capable of making that kind of >> >> paradigm shifting leap are squelched so easily then perhaps they >> >> weren't really capable of doing so in the first place. >> >> >> >> c >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mark Weiss >> >> wrote: >> >> > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a >> >> > Rimbaud, >> >> > or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. >> >> > >> >> > At 10:12 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Mark Weiss >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Again, you don't get paradigm shifts by teaching people how not to >> >> >> > write. >> >> >> > There's something at stake here beyond the cultivation of a polite >> >> >> > accomplishment. >> >> >> >> >> >> "Paradigm shifts?" Sweet Jesus deliver me... >> >> >> >> >> >> c >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> >> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri Jul 3 02:28:32 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?UTF-8?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more information. Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding "official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to develop it and open further networked doors to others. Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing giants? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] a similar excluding conservative mix. Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with mentors. Nice, that. Best, Judy 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an official > literary culture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/191f8838/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 03:12:07 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:36 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907030012o382f11a8l2720ecd343591c2c@mail.gmail.com> I logically already said what I think, which opposes Mark's obstinate defense of a wild natural literary development. Dickinson was a genius but she did not have to work eight hours every day and had time to read and write. In other terms, she had the possibility of outlining her own MFA [or whatever you wish to call it]. Maybe Mark did not consider the fact that people [the majority of simple human beings who still have empathic feelings towards humanity at large, see Pina Bausch's interview on ubu.com] feel the need to share responsibilities and burdens - which eat down our daily time, besides the fact that they also have a consciousness and tend to educate those who are younger, by applying their own experience and creeds [which is obviously the wrongest thing to do because each generation has to develop their own parameters]. He alludes to the fact that he does not want to offend anybody, which can easily brought back to the fact that he does not like how some people on this list write. I think he is leveling down all "my" ["my" in inverted commas because it could be "our" if you agree with me] attempts at being in a literary community in a too simple way, and that he has misunderstood my involvement with my MFA, and my studies at large. I spent years studying German, French, and I gave Spanish a good part of my time. I was very surprised in a poetry translation course to notice that I had greater access to the Spanish language [my very last language] than the person who wanted to translate from this language and to the intrinsic wish of the Author when approached. I naturally studied these languages by following conservative courses with grammar, books and teachers / professors. As you all know, languages disappear if they are not continuously practiced, but if for example someone asks me to translate a text - it might take me some time - but I still have the keys to access them and will for the length of my life. But logically, as Paul Muldoon said to Colbert, his mother told him over and over again to go out and get a job. In front of this, I have absolutely nothing to say. On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of MFA-gotten > folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy and practical use > in the programmes, which, as you rightly point out, Mark, is largely a USA > thing. > One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more information. > > Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding "official > literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we may as well be > finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have discovered their own > poetry-writing power will go on to develop it and open further networked > doors to others. > > Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing giants? > Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always done---and in > the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious few become recognised > for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from > [past? through? beyond?] a similar excluding conservative mix. > > Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. > > Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one example > of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary schools, middle > schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, as well as public and > private libraries, encourage poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, > like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of > poet-geniuses. > > As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with mentors. > Nice, that. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > >> An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an >> official literary culture. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/9a63f075/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 3 03:28:41 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for___Creative-Wr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?i_ting_Programs?= References: Message-ID: I like the notion that Rimbaud 'studied' with Verlaine, I guess you could call it that. Rimbaud was the star student in Latin composition at school, it ended there. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 3:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs Rimbaud studied with Verlaine. Ginsberg was educated by Mark Van Doren and Lionel Trilling. Dickinson was a once in a century genius and there's no accounting for that. About Olson--well, I've never been able to read him with any pleasure, so my opinion is probably worthless. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fbdd4438/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 07:45:51 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for__C?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?reative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4DEF6F.1090101@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a > Rimbaud, or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. This interests me. What are the facts. As far as I know, no visual poet came out of an MFA program. Some are PhDs, though. Many language poets came out of one MFA factory: SUNY, Buffalo. Now there are more langpo MFA programs. The only thing I see wrong with the MFA program is that it's pretty much a closed shop. To make a living doing anything related to poetry, you (with some exceptions) need the MFA. Credentials get you teaching positions, not accomplishments. That's what's wrong. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 07:56:35 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for__C?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?reative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4DF1F3.8060706@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an > official literary culture. DEVELOPING???? > > OK, it's been fun. I've said what I wanted to. You're free to ignore > it or misread it. I have proofreading to do. > > Mark --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 08:05:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for___?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creat_ive-Wr_i_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4DF3F0.40005@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Don't forget to wash your hands. > > At 11:18 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote: >> Well you convinced me, man. I'm going to hang out my lawyer/brain >> surgeon shingle Monday. Got to pay better and since I have a three >> day weekend I can read pretty much all I need to know about both >> fields. maybe I can even effect a paradigm change in brain surgery. In a free country, you'd be allowed to. In a free country, there'd still be brain surgeons with "proper credentials" to whom anyone would be free to go. In a free country, too, you would have been allowed to learn brain surgery on your own. Do you realize, by the way, that the way most phony doctors are caught is not through how they practice medicine but because some clerk checks their credentials--unsually because they don't like them, not because they did something medically suspect. In other words, the phonies get away with being doctors without "proper training"--sometimes for decades--until paperwork gets them. Why is that, do you suppose? --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 08:16:09 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, Dang, Chris, if you were the friend I thought you were, it would have been "Grummanian." --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 07:28:40 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I can't win. But in my defense, isn't this a sign that your taxonomy is taking root, in force if not in specific detail? c On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 4:16 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: >> >> Ah, I get it now. You are a Bernsteinian, > > Dang, Chris, if you were the friend I thought you were, it would have been > "Grummanian." > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 07:44:08 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for___?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creat_ive-Wr_i_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4DEF08.3020601@opus40.org> Mark Weiss wrote: > In person, sure, but I'm not about to insult people in a public forum. Actually, you already have, when you started out with your remark about feeding from the trough. > Whether Hugo or Justice were nice people or good poets or great > teachers is beside the point. I'm not criticizing them. The problem is > systemic. It's not limited to literature, natch. Lots of trades that > used to be un-degreed now require more and more paper. Seems to be the > way the country's going. But that's just an inconvenience in other > fields. The profession of teaching in a university has always required a certain amount of paper. My stepfather, the sculptor Harvey Fite, began teaching at Bard College in the 1930s without a degree, but he was unusual even then. Look, I've suffered from paper shortage. I lost a job at Marist College, where I had taught for many years and really anchored their creative writing program. When they finally got a full-time line for a creative writing specialist, the college's human resources department refused to even consider my application for the job, because I had entered the Iowa workshop as an undergraduate, and so was only able to get an MA in my three years there. That cost me a job, but it didn't stop me from writing. And as a writer, I have never had anyone ask me -- in Nashville, in Los Angeles, in New York, or in any of the little towns that produce small poetry journals -- for my c.v., or for what degrees I have. -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 09:01:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E0145.7050004@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > I can't win. But in my defense, isn't this a sign that your taxonomy > is taking root, in force if not in specific detail? > > c Not my taxonomy, which is systematic, but my typology--informal, ad hoc naming of objects with no attempt to indicate genealogy. "Wilshberia," for instance. But it's not mine. Literary typology has always been around. Literary taxonomy is very rare, though. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 08:04:26 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E0145.7050004@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E0145.7050004@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:01 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Not my taxonomy, which is systematic, but my typology--informal, ad hoc > naming of objects with no attempt to indicate genealogy. ?"Wilshberia," for > instance. ?But it's not mine. ?Literary typology has always been around. > ?Literary taxonomy is very rare, though. Right... but you are the only one doing this kind of thing I pay attention to. Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. c From obodooha at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 08:28:15 2009 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books By Obododimma Oha * http://x-pensiverrors.blogspot.com/2009/07/on-being-married-to-man-who-is-married.html * I have heard it said that an intellectual is a polygamist, for s/he may not just be wedded to a human being whose needs and desires must be given some consideration, but also be similarly attached to books, to academic activities, to the endless pursuit of knowledge. These two commitments do not always submit to each other peacefully and may become the cause of serious agony for the married intellectual. As it is for men who are academics, so it is for their female counterparts. Perhaps, viewed from the perspective of women who are academics, the conflicting demands are more intense in their own case than in the case of men who are academics. In spite of the changes brought into the family by gender sensitization in modern life, women still have to make the home, catering for their husbands and children. And this does not excuse them from living up to the demands of their jobs: as academics they still have to carry out research, read books, teach students, supervise projects, publish articles or books, and engage in other professional activities. Indeed, as Virginia Woolf writes in A Room of One?s Own the woman as a (literary artist) needs a space of her own, economic freedom, and freedom to use her mind, in order to function productively and meaningfully. It is certainly not an easy thing for her to have a ?room of her own? in the space of her husband when she functions as a scholar. As a male scholar, I imagine, therefore, that it is not very easy for my female colleagues. As a male scholar married to a woman and to my books, what does my ?polygamy? orchestrate for me in my family life? Am I not like the man invited by his chi and his father-in-law to work on their farms on the same day at the same time? If I ignore my father-in-law and decide to work on my chi?s farm, my father-in-law would be mad with me and withdraw his daughter (at least, as culturally permitted in the Igbo society in which I was born and raised). If I ignore my chi and decide to work on my father-in-law?s farm, my chi would also be mad with me and take my life. So, my tragedy is located somewhere between the possible loss of a wife and the loss of my life. And, being a faithful husband (oh yes I am!) I don?t want to lose my wife I swear, neither do I want to lose my life and leave her a widow! It is 2.00 am and I am in my study, working at the computer again, fighting back the hands of sleep that have been trying to shut my eyes for me. I have to finish reading an article sent to me for assessment and feed in my report on the e-page of an electronic journal. Deadlines are deadlines, especially for electronic gatekeepers. Moreover, I have to prove to the editor of the journal that scholars based in Africa as not as ?dead? as the world is made to believe. So, I am here, not really in my study anymore, but in cyberspace, mutually hallucinating with other cyborgs (thanks to Mel Gibson for that idea). I don?t know whether I am asleep or awake again, just as I can?t say whether I am really Here or There, whether I am real or unreal! Well, in my nowhereness, I see her on the screen of my laptop, first as a pop-up, then as an emoticon. She is snoring and her snores are angry words. A software now, she jumps out of the screen and gets installed on my mind the real computer. I am browsing my mind now, my laptop has vanished and my mind is saying to me ? Are you real? Are you really here? Are you really unreal? OK, she is your art now, she that you cannot browse. She is the message now the medium , she that cannot give you a deadline. Are you not just another brand of falsehood? Sometimes when she needs your attention, you have a book in your hand or you are sitting before a computer, and you must chase that idea through the paragraphs and pages of some fields of thought. Sometimes she is kept waiting in the bedroom, and you are trying to finish writing that article to beat a deadline. Sometimes the food kept for you on the dining table ? because you could not join the family at mealtime ? gets cold and you have to eat it quietly like a dog, afraid to complain, so as not to start a war. After all, if you didn?t want it cold, you should have come to eat it warm! Books and books and books everywhere. Books on the shelves. Books on the floor. Books on the table. Books in cartons. Books sitting on books. Books inside books, to mark where you have to return to, after angrily going to find out what she wants you to come and see. Books in the study. Books in the bedroom. Books and books and more books arriving. You cannot provide more money for weekend shopping, for you say the pay is low, the tax is high, and you have children?s fees to pay soon, but you can?t remove your eyes from books. You buy more and more books and smuggle them into the house! Sometimes you claim you got the books for free, even before she accuses you with her eyes. You keep buying books, sometimes three or four copies of the same book. Some copies for yourself; some copies for your students to borrow and disfigure through photocopying or sheer carelessness. This conference and that seminar and those workshops ? where you shop for ideas on how to stay away from her! Absentee husband, you nickname is Professor Awayness, for you are busy providing awareness away from her and the children. Sometimes a week. Sometimes two weeks. And when you are returning from this one, you are leaving for that one. Sometimes you trans-conference or trans-seminar, after all, what?s the point coming home to say you are leaving soon? And your way of thinking! Haven?t you been hardened by all those crazy ideas and tortured language that communicates them? So, what do we have here: a human who can really sleep when he is asleep, play when it is playtime, and do stupid things when fun demands it, without caring so much about what this or that theory says? You are discussing a point with her. Just a little argument and you take off as if you are in one of those crazy listserv debates, quoting this book and that book you have read. You see; that?s a symptom of the illness that I mentioned earlier! Can you similarly quote her, your wife? No, not all! Has she got quotable ideas? It is books that tell you what to do. It is books that are right enough decide a little exchange between a husband and a wife! Yes, she needs a husband, not necessarily an academic hero. But you think that being an academic hero counts much in satisfying those needs of hers. And that?s one problem: who determines her needs: you, your books, or she? She wants you to include her in your scheme of things, if not the main programme of your life. And you are uncomfortable about this, very. You think your academic life and pursuit could be hindered, if not ruined, by your focus on a human wife or family. Didn?t you even once whisper to yourself: a writer married is a writer marred? Another idea you picked from those crazy associates of yours, those apostles of aloneness! And now you have discovered another opportunity for keeping her lonely (or another opportunity has discovered you the ready tool!): the Internet, with all those blogs you must update, those emails you must read and respond to, those chats (sometimes three or four going on simultaneously), those skirmishes on listservs you must engage in, those downloads and uploads that increase the weight of your mental luggage. So, has she not suddenly become a widow, an ?Internet widow,? as Clifford Stoll calls it in Silicon Snake Oil? At the mention of the word ?widow?, I wake up and I am right on my feet. My wife opens the door of my study and walks in, fear written on her face. ?Why were you screaming?? ?Screaming? Did I scream?? ?Of course, you did! I came to find out what was wrong. And don?t you think it?s time for you to come to the bedroom and lie down?? And, suddenly, there?s an electricity outage. 4.00 am. Indeed, it is time to go to bed. -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/901fea47/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 08:37:47 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: At least Bob sticks around and jousts instead of tossing a few stink bombs and fluttering away. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/687ff3a6/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 09:56:16 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net><4A4E0145.7 050004@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E0E00.8070607@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:01 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Not my taxonomy, which is systematic, but my typology--informal, ad hoc >> naming of objects with no attempt to indicate genealogy. "Wilshberia," for >> instance. But it's not mine. Literary typology has always been around. >> Literary taxonomy is very rare, though. >> > > Right... but you are the only one doing this kind of thing I pay attention to. > > Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't > follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. > > c That's bad, Chris--it should push you to homicidal thoughts, not suicidal thoughts. I ignore it. Except to get annoyed that "School of Quietude," which is a name with no useful definition, gets all the publicity and discussion. My superior terms, whether you like them or not, get almost no discussion, except from visual poets who don't like my requirement that something called a "visual poem" have words in it to qualify as a poem--and who (insanely) believe that by making that requirement, I'm trying to stop people from making artworks with text but no words. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/73db29d8/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 09:42:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907030642l56d7bc1ak15c5538e4276f6f4@mail.gmail.com> I love this. What is funny about this writing is that this morning while swimming I had already thought several thoughts that Obododimma had written. No wife for me, but a strange life. I sometimes come home full of energy and of ideas to write and do and read, switch on the pc, sit down, and several hours later I get up and feel as if I didn't do anything, and the day is gone. Lists might be the dead of the Author, the same Internet might be, and yet, how much and how much more...? Have a nice weekend! Anny On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books > By > > Obododimma Oha > * > http://x-pensiverrors.blogspot.com/2009/07/on-being-married-to-man-who-is-married.html > * > I have heard it said that an intellectual is a polygamist, for s/he may not > just be wedded to a human being whose needs and desires must be given some > consideration, but also be similarly attached to books, to academic > activities, to the endless pursuit of knowledge. These two commitments do > not always submit to each other peacefully and may become the cause of > serious agony for the married intellectual. As it is for men who are > academics, so it is for their female counterparts. Perhaps, viewed from the > perspective of women who are academics, the conflicting demands are more > intense in their own case than in the case of men who are academics. In > spite of the changes brought into the family by gender sensitization in > modern life, women still have to make the home, catering for their husbands > and children. And this does not excuse them from living up to the demands of > their jobs: as academics they still have to carry out research, read books, > teach students, supervise projects, publish articles or books, and engage in > other professional activities. Indeed, as Virginia Woolf writes in A Room > of One?s Own the woman as a (literary artist) needs a space of her own, > economic freedom, and freedom to use her mind, in order to function > productively and meaningfully. It is certainly not an easy thing for her to > have a ?room of her own? in the space of her husband when she functions as a > scholar. As a male scholar, I imagine, therefore, that it is not very easy > for my female colleagues. > > As a male scholar married to a woman and to my books, what does my > ?polygamy? orchestrate for me in my family life? Am I not like the man > invited by his chi and his father-in-law to work on their farms on the same > day at the same time? If I ignore my father-in-law and decide to work on my > chi?s farm, my father-in-law would be mad with me and withdraw his daughter > (at least, as culturally permitted in the Igbo society in which I was born > and raised). If I ignore my chi and decide to work on my father-in-law?s > farm, my chi would also be mad with me and take my life. So, my tragedy is > located somewhere between the possible loss of a wife and the loss of my > life. And, being a faithful husband (oh yes I am!) I don?t want to lose my > wife I swear, neither do I want to lose my life and leave her a widow! > > It is 2.00 am and I am in my study, working at the computer again, fighting > back the hands of sleep that have been trying to shut my eyes for me. I have > to finish reading an article sent to me for assessment and feed in my report > on the e-page of an electronic journal. Deadlines are deadlines, especially > for electronic gatekeepers. Moreover, I have to prove to the editor of the > journal that scholars based in Africa as not as ?dead? as the world is made > to believe. So, I am here, not really in my study anymore, but in > cyberspace, mutually hallucinating with other cyborgs (thanks to Mel Gibson > for that idea). I don?t know whether I am asleep or awake again, just as I > can?t say whether I am really Here or There, whether I am real or unreal! > Well, in my nowhereness, I see her on the screen of my laptop, first as a > pop-up, then as an emoticon. She is snoring and her snores are angry words. > A software now, she jumps out of the screen and gets installed on my mind > the real computer. I am browsing my mind now, my laptop has vanished and my > mind is saying to me ? > > Are you real? Are you really here? Are you really unreal? OK, she is your > art now, she that you cannot browse. She is the message now the medium , she > that cannot give you a deadline. Are you not just another brand of > falsehood? Sometimes when she needs your attention, you have a book in your > hand or you are sitting before a computer, and you must chase that idea > through the paragraphs and pages of some fields of thought. Sometimes she is > kept waiting in the bedroom, and you are trying to finish writing that > article to beat a deadline. Sometimes the food kept for you on the dining > table ? because you could not join the family at mealtime ? gets cold and > you have to eat it quietly like a dog, afraid to complain, so as not to > start a war. After all, if you didn?t want it cold, you should have come to > eat it warm! > > Books and books and books everywhere. Books on the shelves. Books on the > floor. Books on the table. Books in cartons. Books sitting on books. Books > inside books, to mark where you have to return to, after angrily going to > find out what she wants you to come and see. Books in the study. Books in > the bedroom. Books and books and more books arriving. You cannot provide > more money for weekend shopping, for you say the pay is low, the tax is > high, and you have children?s fees to pay soon, but you can?t remove your > eyes from books. You buy more and more books and smuggle them into the > house! Sometimes you claim you got the books for free, even before she > accuses you with her eyes. You keep buying books, sometimes three or four > copies of the same book. Some copies for yourself; some copies for your > students to borrow and disfigure through photocopying or sheer > carelessness. > > This conference and that seminar and those workshops ? where you shop for > ideas on how to stay away from her! Absentee husband, you nickname is > Professor Awayness, for you are busy providing awareness away from her and > the children. Sometimes a week. Sometimes two weeks. And when you are > returning from this one, you are leaving for that one. Sometimes you > trans-conference or trans-seminar, after all, what?s the point coming home > to say you are leaving soon? > > And your way of thinking! Haven?t you been hardened by all those crazy > ideas and tortured language that communicates them? So, what do we have > here: a human who can really sleep when he is asleep, play when it is > playtime, and do stupid things when fun demands it, without caring so much > about what this or that theory says? You are discussing a point with her. > Just a little argument and you take off as if you are in one of those crazy > listserv debates, quoting this book and that book you have read. You see; > that?s a symptom of the illness that I mentioned earlier! Can you similarly > quote her, your wife? No, not all! Has she got quotable ideas? It is books > that tell you what to do. It is books that are right enough decide a little > exchange between a husband and a wife! > > Yes, she needs a husband, not necessarily an academic hero. But you think > that being an academic hero counts much in satisfying those needs of hers. > And that?s one problem: who determines her needs: you, your books, or she? > She wants you to include her in your scheme of things, if not the main > programme of your life. And you are uncomfortable about this, very. You > think your academic life and pursuit could be hindered, if not ruined, by > your focus on a human wife or family. Didn?t you even once whisper to > yourself: a writer married is a writer marred? Another idea you picked from > those crazy associates of yours, those apostles of aloneness! > > And now you have discovered another opportunity for keeping her lonely (or > another opportunity has discovered you the ready tool!): the Internet, with > all those blogs you must update, those emails you must read and respond to, > those chats (sometimes three or four going on simultaneously), those > skirmishes on listservs you must engage in, those downloads and uploads that > increase the weight of your mental luggage. So, has she not suddenly become > a widow, an ?Internet widow,? as Clifford Stoll calls it in Silicon Snake > Oil? > > At the mention of the word ?widow?, I wake up and I am right on my feet. My > wife opens the door of my study and walks in, fear written on her face. > ?Why were you screaming?? > ?Screaming? Did I scream?? > ?Of course, you did! I came to find out what was wrong. And don?t you think > it?s time for you to come to the bedroom and lie down?? > And, suddenly, there?s an electricity outage. 4.00 am. Indeed, it is time > to go to bed. > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > http://udude.wordpress.com/ > > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604; > +234 808 264 8060. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5c556069/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 10:04:39 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907030642l56d7bc1ak15c5538e4276f6f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70907030642l56d7bc1ak15c5538e4276f6f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907030704s25e3244uba77457dc1d9712a@mail.gmail.com> All too familiar, isn't it? But bless that savior outage! - Jim On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I love this. What is funny about this writing is that this morning while > swimming I had already thought several thoughts that Obododimma had written. > No wife for me, but a strange life. I sometimes come home full of energy and > of ideas to write and do and read, switch on the pc, sit down, and several > hours later I get up and feel as if I didn't do anything, and the day is > gone. Lists might be the dead of the Author, the same Internet might be, and > yet, how much and how much more...? > > Have a nice weekend! > Anny > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> >> On Being Married to a Man Who Is Married to Books >> By >> >> Obododimma Oha >> * >> http://x-pensiverrors.blogspot.com/2009/07/on-being-married-to-man-who-is-married.html >> * >> I have heard it said that an intellectual is a polygamist, for s/he may >> not just be wedded to a human being whose needs and desires must be given >> some consideration, but also be similarly attached to books, to academic >> activities, to the endless pursuit of knowledge. These two commitments do >> not always submit to each other peacefully and may become the cause of >> serious agony for the married intellectual. As it is for men who are >> academics, so it is for their female counterparts. Perhaps, viewed from the >> perspective of women who are academics, the conflicting demands are more >> intense in their own case than in the case of men who are academics. In >> spite of the changes brought into the family by gender sensitization in >> modern life, women still have to make the home, catering for their husbands >> and children. And this does not excuse them from living up to the demands of >> their jobs: as academics they still have to carry out research, read books, >> teach students, supervise projects, publish articles or books, and engage in >> other professional activities. Indeed, as Virginia Woolf writes in A Room >> of One?s Own the woman as a (literary artist) needs a space of her own, >> economic freedom, and freedom to use her mind, in order to function >> productively and meaningfully. It is certainly not an easy thing for her to >> have a ?room of her own? in the space of her husband when she functions as a >> scholar. As a male scholar, I imagine, therefore, that it is not very easy >> for my female colleagues. >> >> As a male scholar married to a woman and to my books, what does my >> ?polygamy? orchestrate for me in my family life? Am I not like the man >> invited by his chi and his father-in-law to work on their farms on the same >> day at the same time? If I ignore my father-in-law and decide to work on my >> chi?s farm, my father-in-law would be mad with me and withdraw his daughter >> (at least, as culturally permitted in the Igbo society in which I was born >> and raised). If I ignore my chi and decide to work on my father-in-law?s >> farm, my chi would also be mad with me and take my life. So, my tragedy is >> located somewhere between the possible loss of a wife and the loss of my >> life. And, being a faithful husband (oh yes I am!) I don?t want to lose my >> wife I swear, neither do I want to lose my life and leave her a widow! >> >> It is 2.00 am and I am in my study, working at the computer again, >> fighting back the hands of sleep that have been trying to shut my eyes for >> me. I have to finish reading an article sent to me for assessment and feed >> in my report on the e-page of an electronic journal. Deadlines are >> deadlines, especially for electronic gatekeepers. Moreover, I have to prove >> to the editor of the journal that scholars based in Africa as not as ?dead? >> as the world is made to believe. So, I am here, not really in my study >> anymore, but in cyberspace, mutually hallucinating with other cyborgs >> (thanks to Mel Gibson for that idea). I don?t know whether I am asleep or >> awake again, just as I can?t say whether I am really Here or There, whether >> I am real or unreal! Well, in my nowhereness, I see her on the screen of my >> laptop, first as a pop-up, then as an emoticon. She is snoring and her >> snores are angry words. A software now, she jumps out of the screen and gets >> installed on my mind the real computer. I am browsing my mind now, my laptop >> has vanished and my mind is saying to me ? >> >> Are you real? Are you really here? Are you really unreal? OK, she is your >> art now, she that you cannot browse. She is the message now the medium , she >> that cannot give you a deadline. Are you not just another brand of >> falsehood? Sometimes when she needs your attention, you have a book in your >> hand or you are sitting before a computer, and you must chase that idea >> through the paragraphs and pages of some fields of thought. Sometimes she is >> kept waiting in the bedroom, and you are trying to finish writing that >> article to beat a deadline. Sometimes the food kept for you on the dining >> table ? because you could not join the family at mealtime ? gets cold and >> you have to eat it quietly like a dog, afraid to complain, so as not to >> start a war. After all, if you didn?t want it cold, you should have come to >> eat it warm! >> >> Books and books and books everywhere. Books on the shelves. Books on the >> floor. Books on the table. Books in cartons. Books sitting on books. Books >> inside books, to mark where you have to return to, after angrily going to >> find out what she wants you to come and see. Books in the study. Books in >> the bedroom. Books and books and more books arriving. You cannot provide >> more money for weekend shopping, for you say the pay is low, the tax is >> high, and you have children?s fees to pay soon, but you can?t remove your >> eyes from books. You buy more and more books and smuggle them into the >> house! Sometimes you claim you got the books for free, even before she >> accuses you with her eyes. You keep buying books, sometimes three or four >> copies of the same book. Some copies for yourself; some copies for your >> students to borrow and disfigure through photocopying or sheer >> carelessness. >> >> This conference and that seminar and those workshops ? where you shop for >> ideas on how to stay away from her! Absentee husband, you nickname is >> Professor Awayness, for you are busy providing awareness away from her and >> the children. Sometimes a week. Sometimes two weeks. And when you are >> returning from this one, you are leaving for that one. Sometimes you >> trans-conference or trans-seminar, after all, what?s the point coming home >> to say you are leaving soon? >> >> And your way of thinking! Haven?t you been hardened by all those crazy >> ideas and tortured language that communicates them? So, what do we have >> here: a human who can really sleep when he is asleep, play when it is >> playtime, and do stupid things when fun demands it, without caring so much >> about what this or that theory says? You are discussing a point with her. >> Just a little argument and you take off as if you are in one of those crazy >> listserv debates, quoting this book and that book you have read. You see; >> that?s a symptom of the illness that I mentioned earlier! Can you similarly >> quote her, your wife? No, not all! Has she got quotable ideas? It is books >> that tell you what to do. It is books that are right enough decide a little >> exchange between a husband and a wife! >> >> Yes, she needs a husband, not necessarily an academic hero. But you think >> that being an academic hero counts much in satisfying those needs of hers. >> And that?s one problem: who determines her needs: you, your books, or she? >> She wants you to include her in your scheme of things, if not the main >> programme of your life. And you are uncomfortable about this, very. You >> think your academic life and pursuit could be hindered, if not ruined, by >> your focus on a human wife or family. Didn?t you even once whisper to >> yourself: a writer married is a writer marred? Another idea you picked from >> those crazy associates of yours, those apostles of aloneness! >> >> And now you have discovered another opportunity for keeping her lonely (or >> another opportunity has discovered you the ready tool!): the Internet, with >> all those blogs you must update, those emails you must read and respond to, >> those chats (sometimes three or four going on simultaneously), those >> skirmishes on listservs you must engage in, those downloads and uploads that >> increase the weight of your mental luggage. So, has she not suddenly become >> a widow, an ?Internet widow,? as Clifford Stoll calls it in Silicon Snake >> Oil? >> >> At the mention of the word ?widow?, I wake up and I am right on my feet. >> My wife opens the door of my study and walks in, fear written on her face. >> ?Why were you screaming?? >> ?Screaming? Did I scream?? >> ?Of course, you did! I came to find out what was wrong. And don?t you >> think it?s time for you to come to the bedroom and lie down?? >> And, suddenly, there?s an electricity outage. 4.00 am. Indeed, it is time >> to go to bed. >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >> >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604; >> +234 808 264 8060. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5878eb2a/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 10:24:58 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907030012o382f11a8l2720ecd343591c2c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70907030012o382f11a8l2720ecd343591c2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Anny: I wasn't talking about poets on the list. I go to dozens of readings a year--often several a week--and read or glance through hundreds of new books. There are some very good writers out there, but there's also a mob of not-so-good to awful, all licensed to teach. Very few of them have an education, or a commitment, like yours. There's never been any shortage of mentors, but they haven't always expected to be paid for mentoring. Bob Grumman says: "The only thing I see wrong with the MFA program is that it's pretty much a closed shop. To make a living doing anything related to poetry, you (with some exceptions) need the MFA. Credentials get you teaching positions, not accomplishments. That's what's wrong." They also get you jobs in publishing. I agree with him, except that I take issue with "the only thing I see wrong." With professionalization comes standardization. There are a great many programs in the country, and there are, broadly speaking, different tendencies in poetry being taught, but the products of whatever tendency already show signs of standardization. There's also been an adaptation of critical language from other disciplines, which in itself is fine, though it does tend to restrict the discussion of literature to those with specialist educations. The assumption seems to be that the audience for poetry and for the discussion of poetry is a university audience. Others are excluded from the dialogue. So the audience becomes in fact increasingly a university audience. But this would happen anyway as more and more poets become academics. One writes from and to one's environment. If writers increasingly live and work in a similar environment other environments become less visible and are less served. This may be less of a problem in major metropolitan areas. At Columbia, where I did some of my undergraduate and most of my graduate work (none of it in creative writing), I think we were all aware that New York was the larger reality. Contrast this with UC Irvine, where most of the faculty live in a neighborhood entirely owned by the university. They buy their houses from the university and sell them back at a fixed margin. Otherwise the faculty couldn't afford to live in the area. Or think about places like Texas A&M or Penn State, where the university is the only industry. These aren't traditional factory towns--the faculty are both more privileged than the rest of the population, with which they have little in common, and far more mobile, with less commitment to the local. "Home" is an academic discipline, which may often require transfers to other bases, where the culture will be more similar than not. The days of the MFA-professor are at any rate numbered. I'm guessing that over the course of the next decade the creative PhD will have taken over as a requirement, further debasing the currency. Mark At 03:12 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >I logically already said what I think, which opposes Mark's >obstinate defense of a wild natural literary development. Dickinson >was a genius but she did not have to work eight hours every day and >had time to read and write. In other terms, she had the possibility >of outlining her own MFA [or whatever you wish to call it]. > >Maybe Mark did not consider the fact that people [the majority of >simple human beings who still have empathic feelings towards >humanity at large, see Pina Bausch's interview on >ubu.com] feel the need to share responsibilities and >burdens - which eat down our daily time, besides the fact that they >also have a consciousness and tend to educate those who are younger, >by applying their own experience and creeds [which is obviously the >wrongest thing to do because each generation has to develop their >own parameters]. > >He alludes to the fact that he does not want to offend anybody, >which can easily brought back to the fact that he does not like how >some people on this list write. > >I think he is leveling down all "my" ["my" in inverted commas >because it could be "our" if you agree with me] attempts at being in >a literary community in a too simple way, and that he has >misunderstood my involvement with my MFA, and my studies at large. I >spent years studying German, French, and I gave Spanish a good part >of my time. I was very surprised in a poetry translation course to >notice that I had greater access to the Spanish language [my very >last language] than the person who wanted to translate from this >language and to the intrinsic wish of the Author when approached. I >naturally studied these languages by following conservative courses >with grammar, books and teachers / professors. As you all know, >languages disappear if they are not continuously practiced, but if >for example someone asks me to translate a text - it might take me >some time - but I still have the keys to access them and will for >the length of my life. > >But logically, as Paul Muldoon said to Colbert, his mother told him >over and over again to go out and get a job. In front of this, I >have absolutely nothing to say. > > > >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Judy Prince ><jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: >"An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of >MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy >and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly point >out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. > >One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more information. > >Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >"official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we >may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have >discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to develop it >and open further networked doors to others. > >Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >giants? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always >done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious >few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson >and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] a similar >excluding conservative mix. > >Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. > >Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one >example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, >as well as public and private libraries, encourage poetry-writing >groups. One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and >Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. > >As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >mentors. Nice, that. > >Best, > >Judy > > >2009/7/2 Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net> > >An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an >official literary culture. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 10:30:45 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that have been made for years. Which might hold some water if all these academic professors you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If you are as tuned into poetry as you claim to be you should be aware of the incredible diversity of styles out there. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/e08ee038/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 11:00:52 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for__?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think it's a question of my reading ability, though it's nice of you to suggest it. Possibly these old arguments hold some water. One of the huge changes in American society since WWII has been the enormous growth of the academic industry. Before then, even referring to it as an industry would have provoked laughter. Anybody out there have figures on what percentage of GDP we're talking about? MFA programs are a part of this, along with a fair number of other now overcredentialed fields. Here's an example from another area. My son just got a degree in physiotherapy in Britain. It took four years. Many of his classmates already had university degrees, but most were straight out of their secondary school honors years--like medical schools, physiotherapy programs in Britain don't require an undergraduate degree. In the US physio programs are now masters level and the doctorate has begun its takeover. The reasons have a lot to do with hierarchy within the medical professions. Enhanced credentialling means higher status. And of course it's a boon to universities. But the training in each country is identical, and Carlos can practice in the US. What's different about writing programs is that they replace a situation in which there was no credentialling and no defined career track. I'm not deriding the professors. I'm questioning the system in which they work and the likely outcome of the requirements of that system on them and an literary culture. Read it as a personal attack if you must, but that's not my intention. At 10:30 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that have >been made for years. Which might hold some water if all these >academic professors you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If you >are as tuned into poetry as you claim to be you should be aware of >the incredible diversity of styles out there. > >---------- >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 11:10:48 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for___Creative-Wri?= =?utf-8?q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it would require more than citing a bland poem or three, since mediocrity is the default mode of all poetry in every era. For decades now I've read many essays lamenting the sad state of contemporary poetry without finding one that did more than blow generalized smoke, or at best reiterate the eternal truth that genius remains rare. Donald Hall (a couple decades ago now) reminded us how these "poetry is dying" essays have always been with us, interestingly enough citing examples from the early 20th century by critics who could not recognize the greatness of the real geniuses writing at that time. Hall believes that what motivates such diatribes is often a Golden Age mentality. Poetry was always "better" back in some vaguely remembered prior era--an opinion that is hard to maintain if one actually hauls out the journals of 1918 or 1818, searching for the wheat amid all the chaff. David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz On Jul 3, 2009, at 9:31 AM, "AlMaginnes@aol.com" wrote: > Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that have > been made for years. Which might hold some water if all these > academic professors you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If you > are as tuned into poetry as you claim to be you should be aware of > the incredible diversity of styles out there. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5e25dc30/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 11:13:04 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907030813w278b307by80e5979f699d5d5f@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations to your son. Believe it or not, I also thought of going on a sabbatical and studying something similar to physiotherapy... which would undoubtedly lead me astray. Re.: Universities what you say might be true, even if generalizations mean very little. The U.S.A. are too big to be reduced to one concept. My Director of Studies was Bill Lavender, person whom I respect. The student - professor relationship worked perfectly for me. He is too smart and I could not cheat, nor did I want to cheat because I respected his intelligence. There are millions of students who cheat. When I find one I tell this person that what he thought was so supremely great is nothing but a backward step for him- herself. They rarely understand the complexity of this statement. Re.: New York. As an ex-New Yorkese, I have always thought that whatever happens in New York is the best. I think it has something to do with the air. Just to put it down plainly. On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I don't think it's a question of my reading ability, though it's nice of > you to suggest it. > > Possibly these old arguments hold some water. > > One of the huge changes in American society since WWII has been the > enormous growth of the academic industry. Before then, even referring to it > as an industry would have provoked laughter. Anybody out there have figures > on what percentage of GDP we're talking about? MFA programs are a part of > this, along with a fair number of other now overcredentialed fields. > > Here's an example from another area. My son just got a degree in > physiotherapy in Britain. It took four years. Many of his classmates already > had university degrees, but most were straight out of their secondary school > honors years--like medical schools, physiotherapy programs in Britain don't > require an undergraduate degree. In the US physio programs are now masters > level and the doctorate has begun its takeover. The reasons have a lot to do > with hierarchy within the medical professions. Enhanced credentialling means > higher status. And of course it's a boon to universities. But the training > in each country is identical, and Carlos can practice in the US. > > What's different about writing programs is that they replace a situation in > which there was no credentialling and no defined career track. > > I'm not deriding the professors. I'm questioning the system in which they > work and the likely outcome of the requirements of that system on them and > an literary culture. Read it as a personal attack if you must, but that's > not my intention. > > > At 10:30 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: > >> Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that have been >> made for years. Which might hold some water if all these academic professors >> you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If you are as tuned into poetry as >> you claim to be you should be aware of the incredible diversity of styles >> out there. >> >> ---------- >> Make your summer sizzle with < >> http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005>fast and easy >> recipes for the grill. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/3a080cdd/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 11:15:09 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907030815v40df9411i92718eaa04efde80@mail.gmail.com> and Eugenio Montale said: ... and lucky we are that we cannot go back to those [very dark] times! On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Graham, David wrote: > Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without illustration. > Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely assert it, that would > require some effort. Certainly it would require more than citing a bland > poem or three, since mediocrity is the default mode of all poetry in every > era. > > For decades now I've read many essays lamenting the sad state of > contemporary poetry without finding one that did more than blow generalized > smoke, or at best reiterate the eternal truth that genius remains rare. > > Donald Hall (a couple decades ago now) reminded us how these "poetry is > dying" essays have always been with us, interestingly enough citing examples > from the early 20th century by critics who could not recognize the greatness > of the real geniuses writing at that time. > > Hall believes that what motivates such diatribes is often a Golden Age > mentality. Poetry was always "better" back in some vaguely remembered prior > era--an opinion that is hard to maintain if one actually hauls out the > journals of 1918 or 1818, searching for the wheat amid all the chaff. > > > > > > David GrahamGrahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 9:31 AM, "AlMaginnes@aol.com" > wrote: > > Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that have been > made for years. Which might hold some water if all these academic professors > you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If you are as tuned into poetry as > you claim to be you should be aware of the incredible diversity of styles > out there. > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/8534c955/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 11:32:50 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Right, the amount of work required to demonstrate that poetry is either worse or better or more constrained in general than heretofore is simply inconceivable. There's surely more formulaic crap out there than before because there's more being written and published. Whether it represents a larger percentage of the whole is another matter. But wouldn't the burden of proof be on the new system, given that the English language has been efficiently filling libraries for a millennium before the advent of writing programs? Hall's formal education as a poet consisted of a couple of weeks at Bread Loaf, by the way. I'll try again. There are wonderful writers teaching in MFA programs and a lot of not so good writers. Some of their students will undoubtedly become wonderful writers and go on to teach, though few of them will have differentiated themselves enough from the pack by their mid-twenties for the superior quality of their presumed eventual output to be much of a hiring criterion. Even if every MFA was a great writer, however, the problem of the limitation of experience and audience would remain. You do realize that we're arguing about a very recent phenomenon. Iowa was all alone for a long time. In the sixties there was a growth spurt in the industry, but most programs are probably less than thirty years old. If I'm off by a decade it's still a very new thing. At 11:10 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without >illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely >assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it would >require more than citing a bland poem or three, since mediocrity is >the default mode of all poetry in every era. > >For decades now I've read many essays lamenting the sad state of >contemporary poetry without finding one that did more than blow >generalized smoke, or at best reiterate the eternal truth that >genius remains rare. > >Donald Hall (a couple decades ago now) reminded us how these "poetry >is dying" essays have always been with us, interestingly enough >citing examples from the early 20th century by critics who could not >recognize the greatness of the real geniuses writing at that time. > >Hall believes that what motivates such diatribes is often a Golden >Age mentality. Poetry was always "better" back in some vaguely >remembered prior era--an opinion that is hard to maintain if one >actually hauls out the journals of 1918 or 1818, searching for the >wheat amid all the chaff. > > > > > >David Graham >Grahamd@Ripon.edu >------------------------ >Home page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >On Jul 3, 2009, at 9:31 AM, >"AlMaginnes@aol.com" ><AlMaginnes@aol.com> wrote: > >>Like I said before, Mark, you're making the same arguments that >>have been made for years. Which might hold some water if all these >>academic professors you deride wrote the same kind of poetry. If >>you are as tuned into poetry as you claim to be you should be aware >>of the incredible diversity of styles out there. >> >> >>---------- >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 11:35:18 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907030813w278b307by80e5979f699d5d5f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4b65c2d70907030813w278b307by80e5979f699d5d5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Re.: New York. As an ex-New Yorkese, I have always thought that >whatever happens in New York is the best. I think it has something >to do with the air. Just to put it down plainly. Our air is certainly more complex than a lot of other air. From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 11:39:01 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70907030813w278b307by80e5979f699d5d5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907030839m371f1db5u408c988332c2866f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Re.: New York. As an ex-New Yorkese, I have always thought that whatever >> happens in New York is the best. I think it has something to do with the >> air. Just to put it down plainly. >> > > Our air is certainly more complex than a lot of other air. But other air is airier. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/7573c7ea/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 11:30:26 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?UTF-8?B?RMOpdGVudGUgZm9yICAgQ3JlYXRp?= =?UTF-8?B?dmUtV3JpIHRpbmcgUHJvZ3JhbXM=?= In-Reply-To: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> Graham, David wrote: > Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without > illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely > assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it would require > more than citing a bland poem or three, since mediocrity is the > default mode of all poetry in every era. > > > My classmates in the MFA program at Iowa included Marvin Bell, Mark Strand, Charles Wright, James Tate, Frank Chin, Lawson Inada, Michael S. Harper, and of course me. No L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E or vizpoets, but short of Wilshberia, it would be hard to find a cookie cutter that would stamp all of them out. And others who went in still different directions. Ken Rosen, dyspeptic and brilliant. George Keithley, author of a book-length poem on the Donner Party. A couple of poet laureates whose work could not be more different -- Mary Crow (Colorado), influenced by her Spanish-language translations as much by anything that happened at Iowa, and Edmund Skellings (Florida), who went through Iowa without absorbing any influences at all, and has remained an unregenerate formalist. -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 11:43:54 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E0E00.8070607@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E0E00.8070607@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Well, it's rare that a bad label makes me wish for more labels rather than none at all... The difference, I think, is that (as far as I can tell) you get-- or wholly believe you get, which is the same thing for this purpose-- Wilshberia/quietist/etc poetry and believe it to be largely inferior, a retread of a poetry long since worn out. Whereas I, for the most part, *don't* feel I get new poetry. It has to be easier to ignore something when you have rejected it than when you simply find it closed off to you *and* lorded over you at the very same time. And, while I'm mentioning that, I should have recognized you in something I bloggety-blogged recently lamenting the lack of teachers of new poetry, in the sense of those being willing to share specific examples and what they think of them, how they approach them and (to the extent possible) how the poem means to them. You are one of the few I've found who do this. Most are too caught up in arguing about poetics and poetry to pay attention to poems. c On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't > follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. > > c > > That's bad, Chris--it should push you to homicidal thoughts, not suicidal > thoughts.? I ignore it.? Except to get annoyed that "School of Quietude," > which is a name with no useful definition, gets all the publicity and > discussion.? My superior terms, whether you like them or not, get almost no > discussion, except from visual poets who don't like my requirement that > something called a "visual poem" have words in it to qualify as a poem--and > who (insanely) believe that by making that requirement, I'm trying to stop > people from making artworks with text but no words. From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 11:51:05 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for?= Creati ve-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> Message-ID: That would be circa 1962. A different world. How many MFAs or MAs in creative writing were granted that year (in the entire country), how many programs were there? At 11:30 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >Graham, David wrote: >>Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without >>illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than >>merely assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it >>would require more than citing a bland poem or three, since >>mediocrity is the default mode of all poetry in every era. >> >> >> >My classmates in the MFA program at Iowa included Marvin Bell, Mark >Strand, Charles Wright, James Tate, Frank Chin, Lawson Inada, >Michael S. Harper, and of course me. No L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E or vizpoets, >but short of Wilshberia, it would be hard to find a cookie cutter >that would stamp all of them out. And others who went in still >different directions. Ken Rosen, dyspeptic and brilliant. George >Keithley, author of a book-length poem on the Donner Party. A couple >of poet laureates whose work could not be more different -- >Mary Crow (Colorado), influenced by her Spanish-language >translations as much by anything that happened at Iowa, and Edmund >Skellings (Florida), who went through Iowa without absorbing any >influences at all, and has remained an unregenerate formalist. > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 11:53:00 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:38 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <648208b60907030839m371f1db5u408c988332c2866f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4b65c2d70907030813w278b307by80e5979f699d5d5f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60907030839m371f1db5u408c988332c2866f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yup. I travel frequently to Glasgow. Every time I get off the plane I think: wow, what's that taste? And then I realize that it's air. Like the experience of the desert--what are all those white things in the sky at night? At 11:39 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction@earthlink.net> wrote: > >Re.: New York. As an ex-New Yorkese, I have always thought that >whatever happens in New York is the best. I think it has something >to do with the air. Just to put it down plainly. > > >Our air is certainly more complex than a lot of other air. > > >But other air is airier. > >-- Jim >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 11:53:38 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907030853j6ccc5754kf53e32761e847c20@mail.gmail.com> W W wow what a class! On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:30 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > > Graham, David wrote: > >> Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without illustration. >> Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely assert it, that would >> require some effort. Certainly it would require more than citing a bland >> poem or three, since mediocrity is the default mode of all poetry in every >> era. >> >> >> >> > My classmates in the MFA program at Iowa included Marvin Bell, Mark Strand, > Charles Wright, James Tate, Frank Chin, Lawson Inada, Michael S. Harper, and > of course me. No L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E or vizpoets, but short of Wilshberia, it > would be hard to find a cookie cutter that would stamp all of them out. And > others who went in still different directions. Ken Rosen, dyspeptic and > brilliant. George Keithley, author of a book-length poem on the Donner > Party. A couple of poet laureates whose work could not be more different -- > Mary Crow (Colorado), influenced by her Spanish-language translations as > much by anything that happened at Iowa, and Edmund Skellings (Florida), who > went through Iowa without absorbing any influences at all, and has remained > an unregenerate formalist. > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5d6c6bfe/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 11:56:16 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= Message-ID: Specifically speaking of the MFA and art-- not the monetary aspects and other troubling areas already mentioned (credentialing)-- I guess I don't see the harm. I don't think the programs (in the main) are nearly as narrow as you make them out to be nor do I find it likely that typical activities on the way to a degree would squelch a writer who has what it takes to be of real significance in the sense of "paradigm changing" and quite likely to help the legions of those who just want to write and figure out how to write better. To feel your pain, I'd have to believe that there are fantastic artists going into the MFA programs who come out the other end having lost that fantasticity. There would have to be writers with the tools to really change the game who, after spending two years getting their degree, have been silenced or significantly debilitated. I find it highly unlikely, not least because if the MFA experience has that power over them, I can't see how they could ever change the game. And at the same time, the evidence that some come out able to write with a bit more facility and experience reading a bit more richly appears indisputable. Again, I'm talking apart from systemic issues, which I think go even deeper than we are talking about here, and which could well be objectionable for other reasons, but not limited to MFA programs in creative writing. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 13:04:28 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?UTF-8?B?RMOpdGVudGUgZm9yICAgQ3JlYXRp?= =?UTF-8?B?dmUtV3JpIHRpbmcgUHJvZ3JhbXM=?= In-Reply-To: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> Graham, David wrote: > Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without illustration. The fact that you can't name a single MFA grad (unless out of SUNY, Buffalo) who uses any technique that was not being widely used fifty years ago" doesn't illustrate it? The fact that no one can name an MFA program that seriously considers visual poetry, mathematical poetry, cyber poetry, sound poetry, etc. (although I'm sure there are a few), or name more than a few that teach language poetry does not illustrate the charge? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/817f6f55/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 13:25:33 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4DF689.4000801@nut-n-but.net ><4A4 E0E00.8070607@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Well, it's rare that a bad label makes me wish for more labels rather > than none at all... > > The difference, I think, is that (as far as I can tell) you get-- or > wholly believe you get, which is the same thing for this purpose-- > Wilshberia/quietist/etc poetry and believe it to be largely inferior, > a retread of a poetry long since worn out. > As I've said more than once, I truly admire what I call knownstream poetry. Basho is big in the book I'm sending you, for instance. Keats, Stevens, Yeats are big in my Of Manywhere-at-Once book. I admire Wilshberian poetry, which is a part but not the whole of knownstream poetry, at its best and even when it is only good. What I don't admire are those who ignore anything that isn't out of Wilshberia, especially those who claim to be terribly eclectic. But, I admit to having one problem as a poet with Wilshberians. I simply can't understand poets who are satisfied to do no more than imitate the received poetry of their time rather than make it new. I consider this a failing on my part. Yes, taking a received form and using it better than anyone else ever has, is as worthwhile as inventing a wholly new, effective form. So my brain tells me. But I am handicapped by a temperament that forces me to prefer the latter, so it's hard for me to listen to my brain. That people imitating, sometimes not well, make out so much better in the BigWorld than I do is something else that makes it hard for me fully to escape my bias. --Bob > Whereas I, for the most part, *don't* feel I get new poetry. > > It has to be easier to ignore something when you have rejected it than > when you simply find it closed off to you *and* lorded over you at the > very same time. > > And, while I'm mentioning that, I should have recognized you in > something I bloggety-blogged recently lamenting the lack of teachers > of new poetry, in the sense of those being willing to share specific > examples and what they think of them, how they approach them and (to > the extent possible) how the poem means to them. You are one of the > few I've found who do this. > > Most are too caught up in arguing about poetics and poetry to pay > attention to poems. > > c > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >> Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't >> follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. >> >> c >> >> That's bad, Chris--it should push you to homicidal thoughts, not suicidal >> thoughts. I ignore it. Except to get annoyed that "School of Quietude," >> which is a name with no useful definition, gets all the publicity and >> discussion. My superior terms, whether you like them or not, get almost no >> discussion, except from visual poets who don't like my requirement that >> something called a "visual poem" have words in it to qualify as a poem--and >> who (insanely) believe that by making that requirement, I'm trying to stop >> people from making artworks with text but no words. >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/50ed873a/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 12:23:34 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ti_ve-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E3086.10007@opus40.org> Yeah, sure, remind me how old I am. Mark Weiss wrote: > That would be circa 1962. A different world. How many MFAs or MAs in > creative writing were granted that year (in the entire country), how > many programs were there? > > At 11:30 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: > > >> Graham, David wrote: >>> Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without >>> illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than merely >>> assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it would >>> require more than citing a bland poem or three, since mediocrity is >>> the default mode of all poetry in every era. >>> >>> >>> >> My classmates in the MFA program at Iowa included Marvin Bell, Mark >> Strand, Charles Wright, James Tate, Frank Chin, Lawson Inada, Michael >> S. Harper, and of course me. No L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E or vizpoets, but >> short of Wilshberia, it would be hard to find a cookie cutter that >> would stamp all of them out. And others who went in still different >> directions. Ken Rosen, dyspeptic and brilliant. George Keithley, >> author of a book-length poem on the Donner Party. A couple of poet >> laureates whose work could not be more different -- Mary Crow >> (Colorado), influenced by her Spanish-language translations as much >> by anything that happened at Iowa, and Edmund Skellings (Florida), >> who went through Iowa without absorbing any influences at all, and >> has remained an unregenerate formalist. >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 13:29:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Specifically speaking of the MFA and art-- not the monetary aspects > and other troubling areas already mentioned (credentialing)-- I guess > I don't see the harm. I don't think the programs (in the main) are > nearly as narrow as you make them out to be nor do I find it likely > that typical activities on the way to a degree would squelch a writer > who has what it takes to be of real significance in the sense of > "paradigm changing" and quite likely to help the legions of those who > just want to write and figure out how to write better. > > To feel your pain, I'd have to believe that there are fantastic > artists going into the MFA programs who come out the other end having > lost that fantasticity. There would have to be writers with the tools > to really change the game who, after spending two years getting their > degree, have been silenced or significantly debilitated. I find it > highly unlikely, not least because if the MFA experience has that > power over them, I can't see how they could ever change the game. And > at the same time, the evidence that some come out able to write with a > bit more facility and experience reading a bit more richly appears > indisputable. > > Again, I'm talking apart from systemic issues, which I think go even > deeper than we are talking about here, and which could well be > objectionable for other reasons, but not limited to MFA programs in > creative writing. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Chris, you're forgetting the many first-rate poets whose careers are blocked because they never bothered with an MFA program. --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 12:42:20 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?UTF-8?B?RMOpdGVudGUgZm9yICAgQ3JlYXRp?= =?UTF-8?B?dmUtV3JpIHRpbmcgUHJvZ3JhbXM=?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> In a word, no. In the first place, I suspect it's not true. Marvin Bell tells me that for the last decade or so, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry has dominated the Iowa Workshop. I'm guessing that this is not all that rare in other programs. I'm also guessing that if there were no MFA programs, this would not have resulted in a vizpo explosion that would have edged out traditional forms. I would not be surprised if technical experimentation were encouraged more inside the academy than outside of it. Bob Grumman wrote: > Graham, David wrote: >> Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without illustration. > The fact that you can't name a single MFA grad (unless out of SUNY, > Buffalo) who uses any technique that was not being widely used fifty > years ago" doesn't illustrate it? The fact that no one can name an > MFA program that seriously considers visual poetry, mathematical > poetry, cyber poetry, sound poetry, etc. (although I'm sure there are > a few), or name more than a few that teach language poetry does not > illustrate the charge? > > --Bob G. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 12:42:33 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Crea?= ti ve-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4A4E3086.10007@opus40.org> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E2412.8090105@opus40.org> <4A4E3086.10007@opus40.org> Message-ID: My beard is also gray. At 12:23 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >Yeah, sure, remind me how old I am. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>That would be circa 1962. A different world. How many MFAs or MAs >>in creative writing were granted that year (in the entire country), >>how many programs were there? >> >>At 11:30 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >> >> >>>Graham, David wrote: >>>>Also, the "standardization" charge is meaningless without >>>>illustration. Furthermore, if one wanted to argue rather than >>>>merely assert it, that would require some effort. Certainly it >>>>would require more than citing a bland poem or three, since >>>>mediocrity is the default mode of all poetry in every era. >>>> >>>> >>>My classmates in the MFA program at Iowa included Marvin Bell, >>>Mark Strand, Charles Wright, James Tate, Frank Chin, Lawson Inada, >>>Michael S. Harper, and of course me. No L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E or >>>vizpoets, but short of Wilshberia, it would be hard to find a >>>cookie cutter that would stamp all of them out. And others who >>>went in still different directions. Ken Rosen, dyspeptic and >>>brilliant. George Keithley, author of a book-length poem on the >>>Donner Party. A couple of poet laureates whose work could not be >>>more different -- Mary Crow (Colorado), influenced by her >>>Spanish-language translations as much by anything that happened at >>>Iowa, and Edmund Skellings (Florida), who went through Iowa >>>without absorbing any influences at all, and has remained an >>>unregenerate formalist. >>> >>>-- >>>Tad Richards >>>Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>>http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 12:44:58 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for___Creative-W?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> Message-ID: <12C45079-BAE7-404C-8452-1FBA24B54EF9@ripon.edu> On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > I would not be surprised if technical experimentation were > encouraged more inside the academy than outside of it. > ================== That's certainly been my experience. The common reader has little tolerance for the avant garde. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/06a73f2b/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 12:48:13 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the new world Message-ID: <4A4E364D.3030401@opus40.org> From an interview with Chris Anderson, author of /Free: The Future of a Radical Price:/ Anderson: My own philosophy... is to give away all my words. I give away my writing, and I sell other stuff. So the writing is the free in the freemium equation....I don't really care about selling the book. I want to make sure all our interests are aligned. But what I care about is propagating my ideas. So why would I propagate my ideas? Well, I propagate my ideas, to be completely honest, to market myself, which I will then sell in various ways. I'll sell by having brand equity accrued to Wired--we'll make money through advertising. I give speeches--we'll make money that way. I have other side projects. I can use whatever celebrity I build in one domain in another domain. Then finally, I think a really interesting 21st-century model is one that we're starting to see in China, which I write about in one of the last chapters in the book. Piracy has rendered it impossible to sell content. So what they do is they use piracy--musicians or filmmakers or anyone--to create celebrity. Then they turn celebrity into money their own way. Some of them do endorsements. Some of them do ads. Some of them do corporate appearances. Some of them do store openings. So what they realize is that they're really in a celebrity monetization market. And I think in a very, very geeky, nonglamorous way I'm also in the celebrity monetization market, where I propagate my ideas using free as much as possible, and then find ways to turn that celebrity into money. I found a few. Some day I'll find more. Amazon.com: I wonder how that works with different kinds of writers. I think someone who can consult like you, that's a pretty obvious route. I think of a fiction writer and what the models are for someone like that-- Anderson: Obviously, for business book writers it's easier: speaking and consulting, board seats, and all that stuff. I don't do all of that, but some do. I think for fiction probably you would go to the music industry for example. So the analogy in music is, give away the recorded music to sell the performance, to sell the show, et cetera. And that works really, really well for those who want to perform. Not everybody wants to spend their life on the road, but for those who do--as you know, the Rolling Stones make 95 percent of their money from touring. I just saw a calculation yesterday that all of the Eagles' sales on iTunes over their entire history were the equivalent of two hours of revenue as a concert. Not even one whole concert, just two hours of that concert. So that is the model. The model is that you give away the abundance, that's the thing that can be distributed for free, and you sell the scarcity, and that's the thing that can't be distributed. So what would that mean for fiction authors? Well, you're not going to have a concert. With the exception of David Sedaris, I think very few authors are going to be able to get revenues that way. You know, I don't know what the--I mean is there merchandise analogy, is there a licensing analogy, how do you monetize celebrity? I'm not sure. Could this mean that in the future, poets will make more money than novelists? -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 13:04:15 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for___?= Creative-W ri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <12C45079-BAE7-404C-8452-1FBA24B54EF9@ripon.edu> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> <12C45079-BAE7-404C-8452-1FBA24B54EF9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: For poetry the common reader barely exists anymore. Outside the academy barely exists. At 12:44 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> I would not be surprised if technical experimentation were >> encouraged more inside the academy than outside of it. >================== > >That's certainly been my experience. The common reader has little >tolerance for the avant garde. > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd@ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 13:06:23 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Human Condition In-Reply-To: References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:32 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: Hall's formal education as a poet consisted of a couple of weeks at Bread Loaf, by the way. ============= Apparently you're unaware that Donald Hall held a Stegner Fellowship. In any case, though Hall himself did not earn an MFA and in fact published an essay calling for the abolishment of the MFA, he remains an odd duck to marshall in any anti-academe argument. As I believe Silliman and others have pointed out ad nauseum, Hall with his Harvard & Oxford degrees, his Stanford training, his long teaching career before he went free-lance, his many official and unofficial laurelings, his utterly establishment credentials & connections, is not an outsider in any way. Which doesn't prevent him from thriving while occasionally biting the hand that feeds him, of course--another illustration, incidentally, that academe is not as standardized and conformist as it's often taken to be. There's more tolerance in the academy for self-scolding than in many realms, as far as I can tell. If you like Hall's work, he illustrates the notion that there's a lot of good music yet to be written in C major, I suppose. If you don't, then he's is an illustration for mediocrity and standardization coming from the academic path. But in neither case is anything persuasive said about the supposed growing standardization of poetry in the post-WWII era. We await that argument. There are always period styles in poetry, of course. I remain unconvinced that the burgeoning of MFA programs has altered the mix much, in terms of standardization. Bob Perelman is not Lucille Clifton is not David Kirby is not Jorie Graham is not R. S. Gwynn is not Annie Finch is not Ellen Bryant Voigt is not Charles Bernstein is not Terrance Hayes--to pick a few names of teaching poets from the shelf in my study now. My historical reading has not convinced me that in pre-MFA times the journals were more wild and wooly and open to diversity of voice in any way that they aren't now. Just as I look at the very obvious diversity available in the academic world (Michael Harper and Keith Waldrop teaching for years at Brown, as one example) and have a hard time thinking what poetic styles or themes are actively excluded. In 1935 T. S. Eliot was publishing in the most visibly prestigious places and so forth, while W. C. Williams was still printed in tiny rags with circulations of 216. These days their heirs both have tenure at universities. Meanwhile, I weary of the fray, I confess. At least for this go- round. And I must soon move on to non-online life. But I would be interested to see if anyone might like to follow up on Chris Lott's excellent suggestion and pay some attention to poems. Why, here's one now. ?The Human Condition? ?of course. What else is there to write about? Somewhere this side of the smelting-fires, the sabers are being forged; and kingly broadswords, in a shower of sparks; and those wicked, twisty dagger blades the hillmen use; there is, after all, such devil-spawn apostasy to fight against: the tents to torch, the villages to turn to kindling. Somewhere else, another kind?a metaphoric kind? of conflagration fills the flesh: entire dynasties, and courts of law, and mothers? sleep, will sunder and snap like fat on the grill, as lust consumes its way across the borders of two young people?s lives, the way lust will, the way that joy in our sexual selves is zealous for completion . . . just as somewhere else, it?s the sudden combustion of godly light in a penitent?s breast that carries in it the vision of warrior seraphs and a grace so intense that it sears. . . . Worlds shake. There is gnashing, there are hosannas. Even so, if the ?condition? is ?human,? it also must attend to Neil losing at online poker tonight. And Chandra: totaling her acceptance and rejection slips. And Juddie Q: his regular connection, who he trusted, delivered a bag of product obviously cut with inferior goods from someone else?s dead-end hustle. And Della: rosining her bow; and thinking soon her chin will be cupped?we might say intimately cupped?and the strings will take her away on their boulevard into another world. And Dan: a week of committee meetings. Little things; little things. My grandparents came here from Russia and Poland over a century back now. Orthodox Jews are supposed to avoid all secular labor over the Sabbath?cooking, for instance, or even simply striking a light. And so one burner on the stove might be left on, at a minimum level, the way that earlier an ember might be saved for as long as possible through the night. ?kept low, and patient in case a greater flame was called for ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/0d9af3e2/attachment.html From rsillima at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 13:29:59 2009 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? Message-ID: <131967.24387.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. This is the problem with conflating any professional study of literature with MFA programs. Penn doesn't have an MFA program either, tho it's where both Bob Perelman & Charles Bernstein teach. And if langpo has dominated Iowa City, that's news to me. What Marvin probably means is that School of Quietude poetry was too boring to the students that the SoQ faculty at the time admitted, obviously a complicated situation. Bob Perelman teaching there one semester does not constitute domination, unless Bob is an even better teacher than I think he is. I've been as critical as anyone of the MFA-ification of poetry, but I do think that fact-based social thinking beats impression-based social thinking most all of the time. I do believe that SUNY-B has a decent hiring record for its PhDs in Poetics, which is a literature degree not a writing one. But the MFA programs that still get the most jobs for their students must be Iowa, U of Houston & Warren Wilson, no? I'd want to see the MLA/AWP stats on that before I go leaping in with generalizations. Ron Message: 1 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:45:51 -0500 From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <4A4DEF6F.1090101@nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a > Rimbaud, or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. This interests me. What are the facts. As far as I know, no visual poet came out of an MFA program. Some are PhDs, though. Many language poets came out of one MFA factory: SUNY, Buffalo. Now there are more langpo MFA programs. The only thing I see wrong with the MFA program is that it's pretty much a closed shop. To make a living doing anything related to poetry, you (with some exceptions) need the MFA. Credentials get you teaching positions, not accomplishments. That's what's wrong. --Bob From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 13:30:31 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=C3(c)tente=20f?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?or=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: If the work is really first rate, someone will see it and publish it. No one ever asks where I went to school when I submit work somewhere. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/0ae00f86/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 13:46:59 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for___?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?__Creative-W_ri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu> <4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> <12C45079-BAE7-404C-8452-1FBA24B54EF9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4E4413.6050305@opus40.org> I'm guessing this is an exaggeration as well. Did more people read James Russell Lowell than Robert Lowell? I don't know -- there were fewer literate people back then. And more people are in the academy than there used to be. The everyday reader is much more likely to have a college degree than he/she did three generations ago. Longfellow was probably more accessible to the common reader than Ron Silliman is, but the number of visitors to Silliman's page suggests to me that he may have more actual readers. We talk about slam poetry being outside the academy and then we somehow depoeticize it so we can continue to make our argument that there's no poetry outside the academy. In the 1940s, jazz went into what amounted to the academy -- an intellectual realm which narrowed its audience base a lot. At the same time, a new popular music, rhythm and blues, rose out of the ashes of the Swing Era, when jazz was America's popular music. And people tend to think of these as two armed camps, not communicating with each other. But this wasn't the case. Listen to Charlie Parker's "Now's the Time" and Paul Williams' "The Hucklebuck." Listen to rock 'n rollers like Red Prysock next to "Lester Leaps In." Listen to "Slim's Jam," where Slim Gaillard welcomes both R&B star Jack McVoutie and jazz great Charlie Yardbirdoroonie to the same jam session. And so it goes in poetry. Come to next year's Riverwood Poetry Festival, around and about Connecticut -- organized by slammers who have also come to love Wilshberian poetry -- people like Colin Haskins and Victoria Rivas -- in which slammers and school of quietudians and school of noisetudians mingle seamlessly, and to which Grummanians would be welcomed with delight. Contact Colin or Kathryn Kelly, or Mar Walker for the Wednesday Night Poetry Series in Bethel. None of the above are organized by academicians (unless you count Victoria's gig teaching math to middle schoolers) Mark Weiss wrote: > For poetry the common reader barely exists anymore. Outside the > academy barely exists. > > At 12:44 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: > > >> On Jul 3, 2009, at 11:42 AM, TheOldMole wrote: >> >>> I would not be surprised if technical experimentation were >>> encouraged more inside the academy than outside of it. >> ================== >> >> That's certainly been my experience. The common reader has little >> tolerance for the avant garde. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 14:54:37 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?UTF-8?B?RMOpdGVudGUgZm9yICAgQ3JlYXRp?= =?UTF-8?B?dmUtV3JpIHRpbmcgUHJvZ3JhbXM=?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> References: <1D0796DE-28EA-456D-B16F-9B93771C2AD7@ripon.edu><4A4E3A1C.5020004@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E34EC.6000307@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E53ED.1090303@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > In a word, no. In the first place, I suspect it's not true. Marvin > Bell tells me that for the last decade or so, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry > has dominated the Iowa Workshop. I'm guessing that this is not all > that rare in other programs. Well, no one mentioned names. But I've been using the term "acadominant" to describe language poetry for a decade or more. I am guessing that it is still very rare in other programs--if, not, hurray, I can change fifty years ago to thirty years ago when langpo techniques began being widely used. > > I'm also guessing that if there were no MFA programs, this would not > have resulted in a vizpo explosion that would have edged out > traditional forms. Never said it would have. It would just have possibly gotten a few visual poets properly published, and noticed by critics. > I would not be surprised if technical experimentation were encouraged > more inside the academy than outside of it. Where are all the innovative MFA poets, then? Except for the stray language poet, I don't know of any. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 14:59:48 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? In-Reply-To: <131967.24387.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <131967.24387.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> Ron Silliman wrote: > I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. It has the equivalent of one. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 13:58:58 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Chris, you're forgetting the many first-rate poets whose careers are blocked > because they never bothered with an MFA program. It's not impossible, but not too believable. Is there some kind of secret seal that MFA grads affix to their poetry? If their work was good, wouldn't it find its way out? And why would those excluded poets want to be members of the club that doesn't want them? To publish alongside those they believe to be mediocrities? c From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 14:06:49 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20An=20Era=20of=20D=E9tente=20for=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20=20Creative-Wri=20ting=20Programs?= Message-ID: I think you have a fairly narrow view of what is innovative, Bob. I would argue that any time a poet is doing something he or she was not previously capable of that innovation is taking place. By the way, I had a math teacher who once told me my grasp of numbers was inventive, but she wasn't complimenting me. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/bebdd4d9/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 15:11:08 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFJlOiBbTmV3LVBvZXRyeV0gQW4gRXJhIG9mIETDKGMpdGVudGUgZj0/SVNPLTg4NTktMT9RP29yPTIwQ3JlYXRpdmUtV3JpPTIwdGluZz0yMFByb2dyYW1zID89?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E57CC.7050201@nut-n-but.net> AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > If the work is really first rate, someone will see it and publish it. > No one ever asks where I went to school when I submit work somewhere. Nor will they be able to tell MFA poetry, whether by a genuine MFA or not, from--well, what I compose. Sure, some people think my work good enough to publish, but no paying publisher does. No university press, either (in bookform). I think the whole subject boils down to the incontestable fact that this country has a Poetry Establishment that is closed to all poetry except Wilshberian poetry and--now to a slowly increasing degree after years of careerist academic machinations, language poetry. The MFA programs are part of this. But it's nothing new. And establishments never prevail forever. I see signs that visual poetry will seep into the establishment as language poetry has. It's much more difficult because visual poetry requires a rarer kind of mind to appreciate than language poetry, a mind at home in both the visual and the verbal. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/6bfbe9eb/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 14:09:01 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E493D.7060103@opus40.org> My academic career was blocked by my lack of an MFA -- but then, it's also blocked by lack of a PhD, and it was most seriously blocked by being blacklisted for many years. My writing career has never been blocked by any such lack. Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Chris, you're forgetting the many first-rate poets whose careers are blocked >> because they never bothered with an MFA program. >> > > It's not impossible, but not too believable. Is there some kind of > secret seal that MFA grads affix to their poetry? If their work was > good, wouldn't it find its way out? > > And why would those excluded poets want to be members of the club that > doesn't want them? To publish alongside those they believe to be > mediocrities? > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 15:18:35 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Chris, you're forgetting the many first-rate poets whose careers are blocked >> because they never bothered with an MFA program. >> > > It's not impossible, but not too believable. Is there some kind of > secret seal that MFA grads affix to their poetry? If their work was > good, wouldn't it find its way out? > > And why would those excluded poets want to be members of the club that > doesn't want them? To publish alongside those they believe to be > mediocrities? > > c > Where could I get a university position teaching, Chris? Of course, you don't need an MFA necessarily, but the equivalent. And you would almost certainly be expected to be a Wilshberian more than anything else. As for blockage, how many non-MFAs are winning grants? Not counting the pre-MFAs like Merwin. Who is getting published in The New Yorker? I wouldn't have any idea, but would bet it's almost only MFAs or the equivalent. Whom do Logan and the other known critics discuss? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/33ceee01/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 14:14:36 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Celebrate the 4th on the 5th... Message-ID: <934197.78309.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> July 5th - Buckminster Fuller Performance SUNDAY, JULY 5th2-4:30pm 4th-floor lobbyMuseum of Contemporary Art220 East Chicago Avenue DURATIONAL PERFORMANCEinstigated by Jennifer Karmin & Ira S. Murfin This is a performance of a transcript of the video Buckminster Fuller Meets the Hippies in Golden Gate Park. You are invited to watch this performance for as long or as briefly as you like. You are also invited to be a performer in it. You may participate for as long or as briefly as you like, and return as often as you wish. FINAL DAY OF EXHIBITBuckminster Fuller: Starting with the Universe is a fascinating mix of utopian vision and organic pragmatism, combining models, sketches, and other artifacts -- many on view for the first time -- represent six decades of the artist's integrated approach to housing, transportation, communication, and cartography. The exhibition features numerous models of Fuller's projects including his famous geodesic dome. Fuller's extensive connections with Chicago are also highlighted through photographs and documents from his years spent living, teaching, and working in the city. FOR MORE, including -- "Waiting 4 the Bus", "Series A: Mary Kasimor and Carrie Hunter" on July 8th, "First Fridays at St. Paul's" and other items of intrigue, hit: http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ "God is a verb, not a noun." ????? "Truth is a tendency." --Buckminster Fuller http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5a1c50eb/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 14:18:19 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It was probably unfair of me to characterize you as having only contempt for the the "knownstream" (though I'm pretty sure a fair number of those who call themselves post-avant have nothing but contempt). And when you do share that you appreciate poems of the knownstream you don't lace that appreciation with backhanded insults. Anyway, you write: > But, I admit to having one problem as a poet with > Wilshberians. I simply can't understand poets who > are satisfied to do no more than imitate the > received poetry of their time But when it comes to post-avant poetry (or whatever, I'm going to use that term as a shorthand, as much as I dislike it), I simply can't understand it. Period. And I've tried pretty hard to do so and to be open-minded while doing it. I mean, really-- don't the vast majority of people who are interested in poetry *want* to find poems they can love and that resonate with them? I know I do. But there simply aren't many people on the inside of new poetry (the field, not the list) who talk about poems... they'd rather argue poetics. And most of the time the argumentation consists of demeaning and belittling the poetry those new to the post-avant are most likely to be familiar with. I'm sorry, but whatever the MFA club might be, it's nothing compared to the exclusiveness and hostility of the post-avant crowd. And then they wonder why more people don't read them and remain "stuck" in the knownstream? I know we disagree about the zero-sumness of appreciation and whether anything new is happening in the knownstream, but don't you see this? Some of the post avant crowd have been friendly-- Josh Corey comes to mind-- but it remains nearly impossible to find any of them talking about poems. And I know much can't be taught... but that doesn't mean nothing can be shared. And if people like me don't have any of the vocabulary to being understanding what's going on, where do we get it? I've had many years of people sharing with me what they see mainstream poems doing; I find almost nothing from the post avant crowd providing any equivalent. c On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > Well, it's rare that a bad label makes me wish for more labels rather > than none at all... > > The difference, I think, is that (as far as I can tell) you get-- or > wholly believe you get, which is the same thing for this purpose-- > Wilshberia/quietist/etc poetry and believe it to be largely inferior, > a retread of a poetry long since worn out. > > > As I've said more than once, I truly admire what I call knownstream poetry. > Basho is big in the book I'm sending you, for instance.? Keats, Stevens, > Yeats are big in my Of Manywhere-at-Once book.? I admire Wilshberian poetry, > which is a part but not the whole of knownstream poetry, at its best and > even when it is only good.? What I don't admire are those who ignore > anything that isn't out of Wilshberia, especially those who claim to be > terribly eclectic.? rather than make it > new.? I consider this a failing on my part.? Yes, taking a received form and > using it better than anyone else ever has, is as worthwhile as inventing a > wholly new, effective form.? So my brain tells me.? But I am handicapped by > a temperament that forces me to prefer the latter, so it's hard for me to > listen to my brain.? That people imitating, sometimes not well, make out so > much better in the BigWorld than I do is something else that makes it hard > for me fully to escape my bias. > > --Bob > > > Whereas I, for the most part, *don't* feel I get new poetry. > > It has to be easier to ignore something when you have rejected it than > when you simply find it closed off to you *and* lorded over you at the > very same time. > > And, while I'm mentioning that, I should have recognized you in > something I bloggety-blogged recently lamenting the lack of teachers > of new poetry, in the sense of those being willing to share specific > examples and what they think of them, how they approach them and (to > the extent possible) how the poem means to them. You are one of the > few I've found who do this. > > Most are too caught up in arguing about poetics and poetry to pay > attention to poems. > > c > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Chris Lott wrote: > > Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't > follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. > > c > > That's bad, Chris--it should push you to homicidal thoughts, not suicidal > thoughts.? I ignore it.? Except to get annoyed that "School of Quietude," > which is a name with no useful definition, gets all the publicity and > discussion.? My superior terms, whether you like them or not, get almost no > discussion, except from visual poets who don't like my requirement that > something called a "visual poem" have words in it to qualify as a poem--and > who (insanely) believe that by making that requirement, I'm trying to stop > people from making artworks with text but no words. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 14:24:15 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Your being circular, Bob. The only thing not having an MFA "blocks" is being a member of the MFA club, which surely isn't going to help one much if they want to work in academia, for obvious reasons. You won't find me disagreeing that our higher ed system is broken. But this isn't an aspect of poetry, but of the academic system in general. Where are you going to get any teaching position in anything in higher ed without having those credentials? c From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 14:27:23 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Actually, forget this post. I'm just not interested in the argument. I'm much more interested-- and have been for a long time-- in how I can figure out how some of these new poems work. I'm not looking for explication in the traditional sense. I'm also not excluding the possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to do so. c On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Your being circular, Bob. The only thing not having an MFA "blocks" is > being a member of the MFA club, which surely isn't going to help one > much if they want to work in academia, for obvious reasons. You won't > find me disagreeing that our higher ed system is broken. But this > isn't an aspect of poetry, but of the academic system in general. > Where are you going to get any teaching position in anything in higher > ed without having those credentials? > > c > From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 14:38:18 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_?= Creative-Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I for one resist talking on a list about any poems presented on a list, even if I love them, because then the absence of comment on other poems would be noted. Why would I want to risk hurting the feelings of anyone, especially people I like? What venue did you have in mind for the exchange you're talking about? Leave aside that I'm not sure which poetry you find opaque. I was talking to a new-minted MFA at U of Arizona. Turns out she'd never heard of Jack Spicer. Not that she didn't understand his work, but that she'd never heard of him. Or Armand Schwerner. Or John Wieners. I don't shock easily, but that shocked me. Similarly, in my world Lorine Niedecker has been read attentively and been a major influence since at least 1969 I think it was, when Jargon Society published a collected poems. It's only in the past maybe 5 years that the other side of the divide's caught on. Apparently Olson remains opaque to many, despite annotated editions. All it takes to read him is to start at the beginning of Maximus, with or without notes, and read to the end, aloud. Not all in one sitting. Hard for me to imagine anyone not being intrigued by the time they've reached the middle of the first book. She'd also never read Williams' Spring and All or Oppens' Of Being Numerous. Back to the beginning of that last paragraph. I think I would recognize the names of most of the poets taught at Arizona, and have almost certainly read at least a poem or two by each. Am I that much more curious than other folks, or does that curriculum get more circulation? Mark At 02:18 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >It was probably unfair of me to characterize you as having only >contempt for the the "knownstream" (though I'm pretty sure a fair >number of those who call themselves post-avant have nothing but >contempt). And when you do share that you appreciate poems of the >knownstream you don't lace that appreciation with backhanded insults. > >Anyway, you write: > > > But, I admit to having one problem as a poet with > > Wilshberians. I simply can't understand poets who > > are satisfied to do no more than imitate the > > received poetry of their time > >But when it comes to post-avant poetry (or whatever, I'm going to use >that term as a shorthand, as much as I dislike it), I simply can't >understand it. Period. And I've tried pretty hard to do so and to be >open-minded while doing it. I mean, really-- don't the vast majority >of people who are interested in poetry *want* to find poems they can >love and that resonate with them? I know I do. > >But there simply aren't many people on the inside of new poetry (the >field, not the list) who talk about poems... they'd rather argue >poetics. And most of the time the argumentation consists of demeaning >and belittling the poetry those new to the post-avant are most likely >to be familiar with. I'm sorry, but whatever the MFA club might be, >it's nothing compared to the exclusiveness and hostility of the >post-avant crowd. And then they wonder why more people don't read them >and remain "stuck" in the knownstream? > >I know we disagree about the zero-sumness of appreciation and whether >anything new is happening in the knownstream, but don't you see this? >Some of the post avant crowd have been friendly-- Josh Corey comes to >mind-- but it remains nearly impossible to find any of them talking >about poems. And I know much can't be taught... but that doesn't mean >nothing can be shared. And if people like me don't have any of the >vocabulary to being understanding what's going on, where do we get it? >I've had many years of people sharing with me what they see mainstream >poems doing; I find almost nothing from the post avant crowd providing >any equivalent. > >c > >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Chris Lott wrote: > > > > Well, it's rare that a bad label makes me wish for more labels rather > > than none at all... > > > > The difference, I think, is that (as far as I can tell) you get-- or > > wholly believe you get, which is the same thing for this purpose-- > > Wilshberia/quietist/etc poetry and believe it to be largely inferior, > > a retread of a poetry long since worn out. > > > > > > As I've said more than once, I truly admire what I call knownstream poetry. > > Basho is big in the book I'm sending you, for instance. Keats, Stevens, > > Yeats are big in my Of Manywhere-at-Once book. I admire > Wilshberian poetry, > > which is a part but not the whole of knownstream poetry, at its best and > > even when it is only good. What I don't admire are those who ignore > > anything that isn't out of Wilshberia, especially those who claim to be > > terribly eclectic. rather than make it > > new. I consider this a failing on my part. Yes, taking a > received form and > > using it better than anyone else ever has, is as worthwhile as inventing a > > wholly new, effective form. So my brain tells me. But I am handicapped by > > a temperament that forces me to prefer the latter, so it's hard for me to > > listen to my brain. That people imitating, sometimes not well, make out so > > much better in the BigWorld than I do is something else that makes it hard > > for me fully to escape my bias. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > Whereas I, for the most part, *don't* feel I get new poetry. > > > > It has to be easier to ignore something when you have rejected it than > > when you simply find it closed off to you *and* lorded over you at the > > very same time. > > > > And, while I'm mentioning that, I should have recognized you in > > something I bloggety-blogged recently lamenting the lack of teachers > > of new poetry, in the sense of those being willing to share specific > > examples and what they think of them, how they approach them and (to > > the extent possible) how the poem means to them. You are one of the > > few I've found who do this. > > > > Most are too caught up in arguing about poetics and poetry to pay > > attention to poems. > > > > c > > > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Bob > Grumman wrote: > > > > > > Chris Lott wrote: > > > > Well, except the whole post-avant/quietist thing, which I shouldn't > > follow because it literally pushes me to suicidal thoughts. > > > > c > > > > That's bad, Chris--it should push you to homicidal thoughts, not suicidal > > thoughts. I ignore it. Except to get annoyed that "School of Quietude," > > which is a name with no useful definition, gets all the publicity and > > discussion. My superior terms, whether you like them or not, get almost no > > discussion, except from visual poets who don't like my requirement that > > something called a "visual poem" have words in it to qualify as a poem--and > > who (insanely) believe that by making that requirement, I'm trying to stop > > people from making artworks with text but no words. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 14:48:45 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Chris: The kids who were raised on it for the most part don't have much background on how it got there. For the rest of us that background is seriously helpful There's a long tradition behind it that folks on the other side haven't for the most part been exposed to, and it's transnational. A good place to start would be the Rothenberg and Joris Poems for the Millennium, in two volumes. Don't skip the first volume, which runs to 1950--the foundations of much of what's followed is in it. And it's a lot of fun. Mark At 02:27 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >Actually, forget this post. I'm just not interested in the argument. >I'm much more interested-- and have been for a long time-- in how I >can figure out how some of these new poems work. > >I'm not looking for explication in the traditional sense. I'm also not >excluding the possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to do so. > >c > >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > > Your being circular, Bob. The only thing not having an MFA "blocks" is > > being a member of the MFA club, which surely isn't going to help one > > much if they want to work in academia, for obvious reasons. You won't > > find me disagreeing that our higher ed system is broken. But this > > isn't an aspect of poetry, but of the academic system in general. > > Where are you going to get any teaching position in anything in higher > > ed without having those credentials? > > > > c > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 14:58:30 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I for one resist talking on a list about any poems presented on a list, even > if I love them, because then the absence of comment on other poems would be > noted. Why would I want to risk hurting the feelings of anyone, especially > people I like? But isn't this list supposed to be about poetry? I'm not necessarily even talking about poems written by listmembers, where I could understand *part* of your caution-- better in that case (perhaps) to say nothing rather than something negative. But settings that aside, I don't see why it would be a problem to share poems one loves (or likes) and what they love or like about them, even if you felt it necessary not to do so with poems by people on the list. For that matter, I see this as a valuable activity even if the poems aren't post-avant/etc. > What venue did you have in mind for the exchange > you're talking about? There are many, but most obviously this list. And the poetry blogs. And the myriad places where the post-avant crowd talks mostly about everything but actual poems. > Leave aside that I'm not sure > which poetry you find opaque. Leaving out the whole flarf thing because I'm tired of looking at those poems and have yet to find many of them very funny... a lot of Bruce Andrews and Clark Coolidge makes no sense to me at all. Picking nearly at random, poems like: http://www.avecbooks.org/tensex.html and http://fence.fenceportal.org/v12n1/clarke.php baffle me. I figure there's something there, I just don't seem to have a way to get at it. c From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 15:05:35 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Chris Lott wrote: > Actually, forget this post. I'm just not interested in the argument. > I'm much more interested-- and have been for a long time-- in how I > can figure out how some of these new poems work. > > I'm not looking for explication in the traditional sense. I'm also not > excluding the possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to do so. > > c > I actually took a stab at this once, Chris -- http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/retallack.html But I didn't get very far. Bob Grumman, in his wonderful essay on MNMLST poetry, actually does tackle the question of what makes a good MNMLST poem and what's not so good, but I don't find his distinctions convincing. It's a terrific essay nonetheless, and I've used it in Creative Writing classes. -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 15:08:25 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? In-Reply-To: <131967.24387.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <131967.24387.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10A64B8B92124EF19F9F372C09A2ACC9@Dissertation> I like the concept of "fact-based social teaching." What are the socio-politico facts that lurk behind the late 20th century teachings of Bernstein at U Penn, and Glazier at SUNY? Hmmmmm. I think we all know. But who has the courage to say the emperor has no clothes? So glad we're in a new century, with entirely new theories a brewin' and a waitin' to bubble over. Gettin' weary of the same ole, same ole social manipulation. I say kiss the postmodern era goodbye, and announce an entirely new era of poetry.... one that boots postmodernism back to the 20th century where it belongs, and keeps it there. It's now the digital era of poetry. And there's a whole new socio-politico to be announced. There's no place for postmodern theories in digital poetry. It doesn't hold up logically. Mary Ann Sullivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? >I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. > > This is the problem with conflating any professional study of literature > with MFA programs. Penn doesn't have an MFA program either, tho it's where > both Bob Perelman & Charles Bernstein teach. > > And if langpo has dominated Iowa City, that's news to me. What Marvin > probably means is that School of Quietude poetry was too boring to the > students that the SoQ faculty at the time admitted, obviously a > complicated situation. Bob Perelman teaching there one semester does not > constitute domination, unless Bob is an even better teacher than I think > he is. > > I've been as critical as anyone of the MFA-ification of poetry, but I do > think that fact-based social thinking beats impression-based social > thinking most all of the time. I do believe that SUNY-B has a decent > hiring record for its PhDs in Poetics, which is a literature degree not a > writing one. But the MFA programs that still get the most jobs for their > students must be Iowa, U of Houston & Warren Wilson, no? I'd want to see > the MLA/AWP stats on that before I go leaping in with generalizations. > > Ron > > > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:45:51 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting > Programs > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <4A4DEF6F.1090101@nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> I'm sorry this bugs you. Let's try it another way. You don't get a >> Rimbaud, or a Ginsberg, or an Olson, or a Dickinson. Add your own. > This interests me. What are the facts. As far as I know, no visual > poet came out of an MFA program. Some are PhDs, though. Many language > poets came out of one MFA factory: SUNY, Buffalo. Now there are more > langpo MFA programs. > > The only thing I see wrong with the MFA program is that it's pretty much > a closed shop. To make a living doing anything related to poetry, you > (with some exceptions) need the MFA. Credentials get you teaching > positions, not accomplishments. That's what's wrong. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 15:11:28 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:40 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:05 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > > > I actually took a stab at this once, Chris -- > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/retallack.html > > But I didn't get very far. Interesting. I had a shiver of recognition reading the last lines: "I believe that all this adds something to the vocabulary of art. But I don't know how to judge it. I can't tell you if this is good stasis or mediocre stasis...le detritus juste, or the wrong scraps on the wall." That's pretty much how I feel about a lot of poems. And not in the traditional "the more I know, the more I know I don't know" sense. Even if one doesn't want to engage in judging poems, it seems like there's something missing if there's no way to even personally judge what is good from what is mediocre (flarf poetry exemplifies this problem). I'll be looking for Bob's essay. Is it online? c From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 15:17:10 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:05 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> >> I actually took a stab at this once, Chris -- >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/retallack.html >> >> But I didn't get very far. >> > > Interesting. I had a shiver of recognition reading the last lines: > > "I believe that all this adds something to the vocabulary of art. But > I don't know how to judge it. I can't tell you if this is good stasis > or mediocre stasis...le detritus juste, or the wrong scraps on the > wall." > > That's pretty much how I feel about a lot of poems. And not in the > traditional "the more I know, the more I know I don't know" sense. > Even if one doesn't want to engage in judging poems, it seems like > there's something missing if there's no way to even personally judge > what is good from what is mediocre (flarf poetry exemplifies this > problem). > > I'll be looking for Bob's essay. Is it online? > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 15:18:07 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > I'll be looking for Bob's essay. Is it online? > > c ==================== Sure is. Check out my page of Essay links for that one & others by a variety of poets: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html This might be a good time to remind people of the existence of my very wonderful online Poetry Library, and to solicit suggestions for further additions to the resources collected there. Main URL in my sig box below. Notice of dead links is also very welcome: the site is too large for me to police every link very often. (I did just verify that Bob's is still active.) ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/093d1d46/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 15:22:23 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> David doesn't have to be alone in blowing his own horn here. His Poetry Library is a national treasure. Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in front of your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? David Graham wrote: > > > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > >> I'll be looking for Bob's essay. Is it online? >> >> c > ==================== > > Sure is. Check out my page of Essay links for that one & others by a > variety of poets: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html > > This might be a good time to remind people of the existence of my very > wonderful online Poetry Library, and to solicit suggestions for > further additions to the resources collected there. Main URL in my > sig box below. > > Notice of dead links is also very welcome: the site is too large for > me to police every link very often. (I did just verify that Bob's is > still active.) > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 15:22:45 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > A good place to start would be the Rothenberg > and Joris Poems for the Millennium, in two volumes. > Don't skip the first volume, which runs to > 1950--the foundations of much of what's > followed is in it. And it's a lot of > fun. I've eyed this set before. sounds like it's time to pick it up. Tangentially, have you (and anyone else) seen the _American Hybrid_ anthology? I find the area it proposes to cover-- the porous borders between these poetries-- interesting, not least because I have hopes it will help me figure some of this out. c From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 15:23:23 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:17 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm Thanks Tad (and David)! c From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 15:26:22 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> Message-ID: <6BC96EA0-C82C-4A57-B35B-3B32B7A0199D@ripon.edu> On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:22 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in > front of your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? Don't know about others, but I'm waiting for my car to get fixed. . . . Maybe I should write a poem about it. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/0e435826/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 15:26:33 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> David -- has your site gotten too fancy, graphics-wise, or is it just me? I can't get past the front page of your essays section. Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:17 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm >> > > Thanks Tad (and David)! > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 15:27:31 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:22 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > David doesn't have to be alone in blowing his own horn here. His Poetry > Library is a national treasure. > > Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in front of > your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? Somewhat ironically, I'm hoping to dig myself out of the depression that some of these poetics discussions (not specifically here, it started-- as it often does-- with Silliman's blog) bring on. Kind of like a gambler who thinks just one more bet will take care of everything. I don't know how others manage to stay so detached (or appear that way) or even not care much that this divide exists, happy to be on one side or the other, not threatened or inadequate. I think I'll go outside for a while. c From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 15:31:07 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> Message-ID: I'm avoiding proofing another hundred pages of Spanish. At 03:22 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >David doesn't have to be alone in blowing his own horn here. His >Poetry Library is a national treasure. > >Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in >front of your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? > >David Graham wrote: >> >> >> >>On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Chris Lott wrote: >> >>>I'll be looking for Bob's essay. Is it online? >>> >>>c >>==================== >> >>Sure is. Check out my page of Essay links for that one & others by >>a variety of poets: >> >>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html >> >>This might be a good time to remind people of the existence of my >>very wonderful online Poetry Library, and to solicit suggestions >>for further additions to the resources collected there. Main URL >>in my sig box below. >> >>Notice of dead links is also very welcome: the site is too large >>for me to police every link very often. (I did just verify that >>Bob's is still active.) >> >> >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd@ripon.edu >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 15:31:17 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> Message-ID: I recommend looking at Cole Swensen's work in the past ten years, as well as the students of Jorie Graham b/w Jorie Graham, since both teach at Iowa, if you're looking for ways into very early work -- poetry writing life wise -- of young post-avant Iowa workshop grads. Cole Swensen basically picks the juice out of various pre-existing texts -- gardens, performance stances, opera, books of hours... The end product is appealing, but easily criticized by not being "necessary" -- i.e. forceful. She generally picks up something about art history again and again and again. This is why it is so common to find someone who is a former student of hers writing a mix of prose and poetry very closely tied to an original source in a very structurally unified way. Graham's influence was a little different. Stephen Burt writes a lot of about the influence of Mark Levine. I don't see it the same way, but I've never been to Iowa City. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 15:37:41 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry library In-Reply-To: <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> Message-ID: <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> Hmmm. The links work for me, Tad. Anyone else have problems? Essays page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:26 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > David -- has your site gotten too fancy, graphics-wise, or is it > just me? I can't get past the front page of your essays section. > > Chris Lott wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/38e9f0af/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Jul 3 15:38:20 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: There are poems I enjoy living with that I couldn't explain or understand in other terms but for some reason give me pleasure, keep me trying, whatever--a sense that tho I can't grasp it there's something there, an engendered trust in the poe,/poet. Sometimes I get the mechanics of it in the end. But finally a lot of poetry can't be understood in terms other than its own. Much of the language of critical theory attempts to deal with this, usually, as far as I can tell, without much success. Mark At 03:22 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > A good place to start would be the Rothenberg > > and Joris Poems for the Millennium, in two volumes. > > Don't skip the first volume, which runs to > > 1950--the foundations of much of what's > > followed is in it. And it's a lot of > > fun. > >I've eyed this set before. sounds like it's time to pick it up. > >Tangentially, have you (and anyone else) seen the _American Hybrid_ >anthology? I find the area it proposes to cover-- the porous borders >between these poetries-- interesting, not least because I have hopes >it will help me figure some of this out. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 16:46:21 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net><4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E6E1D.1030500@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Actually, forget this post. I'm just not interested in the argument. > I'm not really, either. But you're right that the problem is the system, not the MFA programs--certification counts (and and of course you can't get certified without some ability), but ability doesn't. And the absence of MFA (or equaivalent) blocks one from other things besides teaching positions. > I'm much more interested-- and have been for a long time-- in how I > can figure out how some of these new poems work. > > I'm not looking for explication in the traditional sense. I'm also not > excluding the possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to do so. > > c > Well, one problem is the visible critics, who ignore what you're calling post-avant. The other is that the few who write on the past-avant (I'm assuming language poetry, mainly) are like Gertrude Stein, just (for the most part) using hermetic prose to comment on hermetic poetry, or pretty much ignore aesthetics for politics or who knows what. Or write blurbery about it. I, too, have gone years trying to find writing on language poetry that would help me better appreciate it. I don't get a lot of it, though I've struggled to what seems an understanding of sorts of some of it. A problem is that many poets, especially my own visual poets, think themselves and their poetry superior to explication. So are rarely helpful. I really think I could have written a useful book for people like you regarding language poetry and would have enjoyed doing it, but my day job interfered--and my own career as a poet/critic. No time to get properly absorbed in it, then write about it. I've done better with the more accessible kinds of visio-textual art, mostly working from my knowledge as a visual poet. There's very little real criticism of it to intereact with and learn from. Sound poetry is another field I probably don't know any better than you do. Now, alas, you have me back to my old lament about there being no list of schools poetry. Such a list would indicate unknown territory and perhaps inspire a few more to explore it. Might even make a few grants-bestowers wonder if maybe they were missing something--rather than ignorantly assuming Wilshberia was the whole range of worthwhile poetry. A final problem, in my view, is the incredible passivity of poets of all schools. Except those who have made it, and the language poets. So very few willing to risk making boring fools of themselves like I do to advance their poetic causes. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 16:53:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E6FE5.40706@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > > > Chris Lott wrote: >> Actually, forget this post. I'm just not interested in the argument. >> I'm much more interested-- and have been for a long time-- in how I >> can figure out how some of these new poems work. >> >> I'm not looking for explication in the traditional sense. I'm also not >> excluding the possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to do so. >> >> c >> > I actually took a stab at this once, Chris -- > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/retallack.html > > But I didn't get very far. > > Bob Grumman, in his wonderful essay on MNMLST poetry, actually does > tackle the question of what makes a good MNMLST poem and what's not so > good, but I don't find his distinctions convincing. It's a terrific > essay nonetheless, and I've used it in Creative Writing classes. > It's on the Internet. And discusses mostly stuff I consider very accessible--no Clark Coolidge. But you've read it, I think, Chris. If not, it's mostly the kind of thing I've hit you with in conversations here about "lighght" and "tundra." The book I'll be sending you is similar but goes into more detail and treats many more specimens. Thanks again, Mole, for continuing to plug my essay. It may be taught in some MFA classes! I have heard of professors who have put it on their reading lists. --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 15:53:11 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry library In-Reply-To: <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> Got it working now. It was my fault. Great bunch of essays. Nothing by me. David Graham wrote: > Hmmm. The links work for me, Tad. Anyone else have problems? > > Essays page: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:26 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > >> David -- has your site gotten too fancy, graphics-wise, or is it just >> me? I can't get past the front page of your essays section. >> >> Chris Lott wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 15:53:52 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <648208b60907031253g550f7fddyeda3c0735e6b632a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > > Leaving out the whole flarf thing because I'm tired of looking at > those poems and have yet to find many of them very funny... a lot of > Bruce Andrews and Clark Coolidge makes no sense to me at all. > > Picking nearly at random, poems like: > http://www.avecbooks.org/tensex.html > and > http://fence.fenceportal.org/v12n1/clarke.php > > baffle me. I figure there's something there, I just don't seem to have > a way to get at it. "From A Cast of Tens" by David Bromige is Upstream poetry cloudily and done by fingers Officially in a room without hours thrown dice decadently cubed not stirred Cannot follow with parallel thus pencil's foreskin limply On the other foot Robin Clarke suspiciously Anglican drops chemistry. Period. One can wear any string. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/b820ddbe/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 17:01:11 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E7197.7010903@nut-n-but.net> > > Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in > front of your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? I thought of how lonely you'd feel sitting in front of your if nobody else did, Mole. --Bob From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 16:01:30 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:09:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: There's no place for postmodern theories in digital poetry. It doesn't hold up logically. Oh come on. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/546a21ca/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:02:48 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <777A5D6BC37B40E4A668EBBD1B089CAC@Dissertation> Al, Where do you want to go? Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:09:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: There's no place for postmodern theories in digital poetry. It doesn't hold up logically. Oh come on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fc00ea12/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 16:05:58 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? Message-ID: I was thinking away from nonsensical generalization. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/799f9d46/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:08:07 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D140F1A0C844FE1BA51B73EB911A8CE@Dissertation> Then join me. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? I was thinking away from nonsensical generalization. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/e1319355/attachment.html From rsillima at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 16:14:03 2009 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message: 3 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ron Silliman wrote: > I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. It has the equivalent of one. --Bob G. No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the MFA-type degree, in which many students receive precious little background as to the histories and politics of their various genre. It's only if you take such a broad view that any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of equation you are making is plausible. Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and how many other slam poets are teaching now? For a genre that has been allergic to reading, that is pretty amazing, frankly. The academy has complex and often problematic dynamics, but it should never be reduced to the kind of black/white analysis that has mostly been the case here. Says I with my high school diploma, Ron Silliman From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:17:16 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What about this fact? In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds political language in his code samples. Take this snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of comments in code: Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: 107). In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," which is often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political communication. It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry conferences. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Ron Silliman wrote: >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. > It has the equivalent of one. > > --Bob G. > > No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the MFA-type degree, in > which many students receive precious little background as to the histories > and politics of their various genre. It's only if you take such a broad > view that any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of equation > you are making is plausible. > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and how many other slam > poets are teaching now? For a genre that has been allergic to reading, > that is pretty amazing, frankly. > > The academy has complex and often problematic dynamics, but it should > never be reduced to the kind of black/white analysis that has mostly been > the case here. > > Says I with my high school diploma, > > Ron Silliman > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 16:20:15 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: In 1929 Faulkner wanted his publisher to use different colored ink to follow each character in the first section of The Sound and the Fury. His publisher abstained because of cost. Technology has made that possible now, but calling that a breakthrough seems to set the bar awfully low for breakthroughs. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/e40239d0/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:21:45 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98056E5D5483496AA53EF9873DE1AF25@Dissertation> Very low. Not too distributive is it? Mary Anbn ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In 1929 Faulkner wanted his publisher to use different colored ink to follow each character in the first section of The Sound and the Fury. His publisher abstained because of cost. Technology has made that possible now, but calling that a breakthrough seems to set the bar awfully low for breakthroughs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/f605ccfb/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:23:35 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm, This faulkner thing seems like a red herring to me. Anyone else smell fish? Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In 1929 Faulkner wanted his publisher to use different colored ink to follow each character in the first section of The Sound and the Fury. His publisher abstained because of cost. Technology has made that possible now, but calling that a breakthrough seems to set the bar awfully low for breakthroughs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/d475651e/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 16:27:01 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: Explain? It seems at least as relevant as this: Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: 107). In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," which is often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political communication. It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry conferences. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/7e8aeb26/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:29:28 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's now July. Almost the 4th of July. Happy Independence Day, for all us poets. May Day is WAY behind us. That's what I mean when I say boot postmodernism back to the 20th century where it belongs. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Explain? It seems at least as relevant as this: Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: 107). In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," which is often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political communication. It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry conferences. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/d8fa9db4/attachment.html From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Fri Jul 3 16:35:53 2009 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry library In-Reply-To: <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4E2553.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu> A great collection of essays and links. However, the links to essays appearing in _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ need a slight correction. If you could remove "english/" from each one, you will have a direct link to the essays. The disk space needed for storing VPR has grown tremendously since all issues are maintained in its archive; consequently, the university recently decided to move VPR out of the English department website and give it an independent location online. This change of address initially has caused some difficulties with many existing links around the Internet, but certainly it was necessary. Thanks, again, Ed -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu Home Page: http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 16:41:02 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital poets. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/5fb5519d/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:45:11 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided below. If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say in Ireland, read the book. In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds political language in his code samples. Take this snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of comments in code: Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: 107). In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," which is often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political communication. It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry conferences. Mary Ann SULLIVAN Avoidance? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital poets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/1cf70ed4/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jul 3 16:52:20 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:24:23 PM Central Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: > > > Hmmm, This faulkner thing seems like a red herring to me. Anyone else > smell fish? > > "My mother is a fish." Faulkner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fc8a29e4/attachment.html From rsillima at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 16:56:06 2009 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <851728.42335.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> And this has what to do with SUNY-Buffalo having or not having an MFA program? Puzzled & bemused, Ron --- On Fri, 7/3/09, SULLIVAN wrote: > From: SULLIVAN > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:17 PM > What about this fact? > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, > Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of > bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds > political language in his code samples.? Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation > of the use of comments in code: > > > ? ? ? ? ??? color="red">Happy May Day!? ? > ? (Glazier, 2002: 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the > word? "Comrade," which is often? associated with > Marxism.? Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the > working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, > 1932, 2002).? In instances like this, Glazier seems to > use his book as a venue for political communication. It > should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues > to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry > conferences. > > Mary Ann > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 > > From: Bob Grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? > > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > >? ? Views" > > Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > > > Ron Silliman wrote: > >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT > have an MFA program. > > It has the equivalent of one. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the > MFA-type degree, in which many students receive precious > little background as to the histories and politics of their > various genre. It's only if you take such a broad view that > any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of > equation you are making is plausible. > > > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and > how many other slam poets are teaching now? For a genre that > has been allergic to reading, that is pretty amazing, > frankly. > > > > The academy has complex and often problematic > dynamics, but it should never be reduced to the kind of > black/white analysis that has mostly been the case here. > > > > Says I with my high school diploma, > > > > Ron Silliman > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:56:48 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "My teacher is a whale." Melville ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:24:23 PM Central Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: Hmmm, This faulkner thing seems like a red herring to me. Anyone else smell fish? "My mother is a fish." Faulkner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/eef9ac58/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 16:57:49 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <851728.42335.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <851728.42335.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023E6ECD97CB43E296AF8EC37E365F88@Dissertation> Puzzles are good for the brain. Muses are good for the poet. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" ; "SULLIVAN" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" And this has what to do with SUNY-Buffalo having or not having an MFA program? Puzzled & bemused, Ron --- On Fri, 7/3/09, SULLIVAN wrote: > From: SULLIVAN > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:17 PM > What about this fact? > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, > Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of > bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds > political language in his code samples. Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation > of the use of comments in code: > > > color="red">Happy May Day! > (Glazier, 2002: 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the > word "Comrade," which is often associated with > Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the > working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, > 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to > use his book as a venue for political communication. It > should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues > to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry > conferences. > > Mary Ann > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 > > From: Bob Grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? > > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > > Views" > > Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > > > Ron Silliman wrote: > >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT > have an MFA program. > > It has the equivalent of one. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the > MFA-type degree, in which many students receive precious > little background as to the histories and politics of their > various genre. It's only if you take such a broad view that > any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of > equation you are making is plausible. > > > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and > how many other slam poets are teaching now? For a genre that > has been allergic to reading, that is pretty amazing, > frankly. > > > > The academy has complex and often problematic > dynamics, but it should never be reduced to the kind of > black/white analysis that has mostly been the case here. > > > > Says I with my high school diploma, > > > > Ron Silliman > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 17:01:33 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E71AD.9050400@opus40.org> Have I just been lazy and not following enough threads recently, or is Mary Ann Sullivan a new voice in these parts? If so, a welcome one. If not, sorry about not seeing your posts before, Mary Ann, very glad to be seeing them now. SULLIVAN wrote: > I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided below. > > If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say > in Ireland, read the book. > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno > Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into > poetry. > For example, he embeds political language in his code samples. Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of > comments in code: > > > Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: > 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," > which is > often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and > "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and > shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like > this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political > communication. > It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable > in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at > international e-poetry conferences. > > Mary Ann SULLIVAN > > > > > > > > Avoidance? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original > Message ----- > > *From:* AlMaginnes@aol.com > *To:* new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > > Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital > poets. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes > for the > grill. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 17:04:16 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <4A4E71AD.9050400@opus40.org> References: <4A4E71AD.9050400@opus40.org> Message-ID: Yoh, ole mole. Been here long enough to know what's going on. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > Have I just been lazy and not following enough threads recently, or is > Mary Ann Sullivan a new voice in these parts? If so, a welcome one. If > not, sorry about not seeing your posts before, Mary Ann, very glad to be > seeing them now. > > > SULLIVAN wrote: >> I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided below. >> If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say in >> Ireland, read the book. >> >> In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno >> Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into >> poetry. >> For example, he embeds political language in his code samples. Take this >> snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of >> comments in code: >> >> >> Happy May Day! (Glazier, 2002: >> 107). >> >> In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word "Comrade," which >> is >> often associated with Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and >> "May >> Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and >> shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002). In instances like >> this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political >> communication. >> It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as >> knowledgeable >> in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at >> international e-poetry conferences. >> >> Mary Ann SULLIVAN >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Avoidance? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original >> Message ----- >> >> *From:* AlMaginnes@aol.com >> *To:* new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> *Sent:* Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" >> >> Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital >> poets. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes >> for the >> grill. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 17:09:57 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative=2DWri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of MFA-gotten > folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy and practical use > in the programmes, which, as you rightly point out, Mark, is largely a USA > thing. > One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more information. > > Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding "official > literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we may as well be > finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have discovered their own > poetry-writing power will go on to develop it and open further networked > doors to others. > > Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing giants? > Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always done---and in > the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious few become recognised > for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from > [past? through? beyond?] a similar excluding conservative mix. > > Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. > > Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one example > of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary schools, middle > schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, as well as public and > private libraries, encourage poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, > like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of > poet-geniuses. > > As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with mentors. > Nice, that. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > >> An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an >> official literary culture. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fd6b1912/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 17:13:27 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4E7477.9070204@opus40.org> And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. Halvard Johnson wrote: > I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince > > > wrote: > > "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of > MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative > joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly > point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. > > One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more > information. > > Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding > "official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], > we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise > have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to > develop it and open further networked doors to others. > > Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing > giants? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has > always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a > precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a > Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] > a similar excluding conservative mix. > > Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. > > Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one > example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary > schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, > universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage > poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum > at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. > > As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with > mentors. Nice, that. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > > > An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're > developing an official literary culture. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 17:14:58 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry library In-Reply-To: <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> Message-ID: By all means, point me to anything you'd care to that's online, Tad. My site is perpetually in need of updating, of course. On 7/3/09 2:53 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > Got it working now. It was my fault. Great bunch of essays. Nothing by me. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 17:17:20 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=E9tente_for_Creative-Wri_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4E7477.9070204@opus40.org> References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> <4A4E7477.9070204@opus40.org> Message-ID: <2B2646920E2C4419AE30F87B100F5C47@Dissertation> Hang on, if you can. This one's going to be for the gipper. Signing off, to celebrate independence day, Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs > And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: >> I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. >> >> Hal >> >> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >> --Joseph Stalin >> >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >> "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of >> MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative >> joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly >> point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. >> >> One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more >> information. >> Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >> "official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], >> we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise >> have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to >> develop it and open further networked doors to others. >> Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >> giants? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has >> always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a >> precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a >> Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] >> a similar excluding conservative mix. >> Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. >> Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one >> example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >> schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, >> universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage >> poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum >> at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. >> As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >> mentors. Nice, that. >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > > >> >> An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're >> developing an official literary culture. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 3 17:20:53 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9tente_for_Crea?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tive-Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <2B2646920E2C4419AE30F87B100F5C47@Dissertation> References: <7db1d01b0907022328g3ddab1dew73dc0b18aceb84e1@mail.gmail.com> <4A4E7477.9070204@opus40.org> <2B2646920E2C4419AE30F87B100F5C47@Dissertation> Message-ID: <4A4E7635.4000401@opus40.org> On my way to the Hudson Valley Renegades game and fireworks afterwards. SULLIVAN wrote: > Hang on, if you can. > > This one's going to be for the gipper. > > Signing off, to celebrate independence day, > > Mary Ann > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" > To: ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting > Programs > > >> And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. >> >> Halvard Johnson wrote: >>> I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >>> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >>> --Joseph Stalin >>> >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> "An official literary culture tends to exclude." And plenty of >>> MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative >>> joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly >>> point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. >>> >>> One of my mantras: Few situations are not helped by more >>> information. >>> Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >>> "official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], >>> we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise >>> have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to >>> develop it and open further networked doors to others. >>> Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >>> giants? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has >>> always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a >>> precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a >>> Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] >>> a similar excluding conservative mix. >>> Am I backing MFA programmes? Yes. >>> Would I like to see other options? Most definitely. As just one >>> example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >>> schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, >>> universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage >>> poetry-writing groups. One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum >>> at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. >>> As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >>> mentors. Nice, that. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss >> > >>> >>> An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're >>> developing an official literary culture. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 17:24:29 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/09 3:14 PM, "Ron Silliman" wrote: > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and how many other slam poets > are teaching now? For a genre that has been allergic to reading, that is > pretty amazing, frankly. > > The academy has complex and often problematic dynamics, but it should never be > reduced to the kind of black/white analysis that has mostly been the case > here. -- Hear, hear. No one else might care, but I agree seldom enough with Ron Silliman that this seems like an occasion worth noting. Speaking of slam poets entering the academy, this past semester at Ripon College we had Patricia Smith come for a visit. She was terrific in every way, and in my Poetry Aloud class spoke quite eloquently about what slam poetry gave her, and why she has moved beyond it. She just accepted her first tenure-track teaching job, by the way. There are many things wrong with the academy, I'll be the first to concur. But as more and more people like Smith enter, it will inevitably alter the academy for the good, I believe. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 3 17:28:31 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Message-ID: Sorry. All that different colored font makes my eyes hurt. All that pretension makes my brain hurt. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/6b72d36d/attachment.html From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Jul 3 17:47:06 2009 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yawning. Dull indeed. Weren't YOU the one who made it red? Or should I, in this case, say read? Signing off for independence day. Remember, this one is gonna be for the gipper, Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" Sorry. All that different colored font makes my eyes hurt. All that pretension makes my brain hurt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/c3a3430e/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 18:52:11 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> > Ron Silliman wrote: > >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. >> > It has the equivalent of one. > > --Bob G. > > No, Bob, Does SUNY, Buffalo, give no masters in English? Surely they give BA's in English. My point is that they give some graduates some kind of document that is useful in going on in the business in a way your high school diploma and my belated BA from Cal State, Northridge would not. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/c8ce3024/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 18:02:44 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> References: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: CSUN has an MA in creative writing. Grads include Ara Shirinyan; faculty, poet Leilani Hall (who has a PhD). -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 3 18:03:27 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry library/Valparaiso In-Reply-To: <4A4E2553.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> <4A4E2553.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu> Message-ID: <660FDFF5-581A-40EE-B541-559392511F64@ripon.edu> Ed, thanks for the heads-up. I've corrected all the pages I could think of. This one, however, goes to an Error 404 page every time: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/grahamannabelles.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 3, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Edward Byrne wrote: > A great collection of essays and links. However, the links to > essays appearing in _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ need a slight > correction. If you could remove "english/" from each one, you will > have a direct link to the essays. > > The disk space needed for storing VPR has grown tremendously since > all issues are maintained in its archive; consequently, the > university recently decided to move VPR out of the English > department website and give it an independent location online. This > change of address initially has caused some difficulties with many > existing links around the Internet, but certainly it was necessary. > > Thanks, again, > Ed > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu > Home Page: > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > Blog: > http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu > VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/7bcb1018/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 18:03:29 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> References: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: CSUN has an MA in creative writing. Grads include Ara Shirinyan; faculty, poet Leilani Hall (who has a PhD). -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 3 19:16:10 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" In-Reply-To: References: <538135.43724.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4E913A.3030803@nut-n-but.net> Catherine Daly wrote: > CSUN has an MA in creative writing. Grads include Ara Shirinyan; > faculty, poet Leilani Hall (who has a PhD). Thanks, Catherine. That's close enough to having an MFA program for me. --Bob From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Fri Jul 3 23:12:56 2009 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry library/Valparaiso In-Reply-To: <660FDFF5-581A-40EE-B541-559392511F64@ripon.edu> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> <4A4E61A7.3010309@opus40.org> <4A4E2553.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu> <660FDFF5-581A-40EE-B541-559392511F64@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4E8262.7112.006E.1@valpo.edu> Hi, David: Apparently a few of the thousand or so pages were lost during the switch in addresses. Thanks for pointing this out. I have restored them from a saved version of the old address. This link should work now. Let me know. Cheers, Ed -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu Home Page: http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- >>> David Graham 7/3/2009 5:03 PM >>> Ed, thanks for the heads-up. I've corrected all the pages I could think of. This one, however, goes to an Error 404 page every time: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/grahamannabelles.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 3, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Edward Byrne wrote: > A great collection of essays and links. However, the links to > essays appearing in _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ need a slight > correction. If you could remove "english/" from each one, you will > have a direct link to the essays. > > The disk space needed for storing VPR has grown tremendously since > all issues are maintained in its archive; consequently, the > university recently decided to move VPR out of the English > department website and give it an independent location online. This > change of address initially has caused some difficulties with many > existing links around the Internet, but certainly it was necessary. > > Thanks, again, > Ed > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu > Home Page: > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > Blog: > http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu > VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 3 23:28:36 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I can't disagree with any of this... I'm careful always to note that I'm not looking for traditional teaching. I just think that the best way to bring poetry to life is by sharing poems. Anyway, this inability to explain poems that give you pleasure makes perfect sense. I wonder why it's a red flag to so many when that claim is made w/r/t a poem or poet they don't like? For instance, say that a James Wright poem gives you pleasure for some reason that you can't explain and many in the post-avant will do their best to eviscerate your parochialism. Seems to me that it's a reasonable explanation and, because it is so, negative poetics and the attempt to build one school up by tearing another down are diseased in their heart. It's that kind of hostility and unwillingness to accept their own terms when it isn't self-serving that gets me pissed off and angry at many post avant pundits. I don't like the unwritten rule that appears to read something like "your with us or your against us" and which apparently means I can like Eigner or Jack Gilbert, but not both... if I do, I'm somehow sucking the soul out of new poetry and selling my own at the same time. c On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > There are poems I enjoy living with that I couldn't explain or understand in > other terms but for some reason give me pleasure, keep me trying, > whatever--a sense that tho I can't grasp it there's something there, an > engendered trust in the poe,/poet. Sometimes I get the mechanics of it in > the end. But finally a lot of poetry can't be understood in terms other than > its own. Much of the language of critical theory attempts to deal with this, > usually, as far as I can tell, without much success. > > Mark > > At 03:22 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> > A good place to start would be the Rothenberg >> > and Joris Poems for the Millennium, in two volumes. >> > Don't skip the first volume, which runs to >> > 1950--the foundations of much of what's >> > followed is in it. And it's a lot of >> > fun. >> >> I've eyed this set before. sounds like it's time to pick it up. >> >> Tangentially, have you (and anyone else) seen the _American Hybrid_ >> anthology? I find the area it proposes to cover-- the porous borders >> between these poetries-- interesting, not least because I have hopes >> it will help me figure some of this out. >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 01:17:44 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:44 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I was really talking about "difficult" poetry, the kind that doesn't yield easily to understanding, that makes you search for how to read it. To put this in perspective, my mother told me that when she was in college, circa 1939, the class read a poem by Wallace Stevens to universal confusion, and the professor admitted that he didn't get it either and almost nobody did. Yesterday's difficult art is often today's staple. It's clearer, maybe, in the visual arts or music. Pollock doesn't present particular challenges any more, and a great deal of once-unplayable music is now taught to teenagers in conservatories. The culture simply no longer finds the work off-puttingly strange. The effort of learning how to read the poem can be what's most compelling. At 11:28 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: >I can't disagree with any of this... I'm careful always to note that >I'm not looking for traditional teaching. I just think that the best >way to bring poetry to life is by sharing poems. > >Anyway, this inability to explain poems that give you pleasure makes >perfect sense. I wonder why it's a red flag to so many when that claim >is made w/r/t a poem or poet they don't like? For instance, say that a >James Wright poem gives you pleasure for some reason that you can't >explain and many in the post-avant will do their best to eviscerate >your parochialism. > >Seems to me that it's a reasonable explanation and, because it is so, >negative poetics and the attempt to build one school up by tearing >another down are diseased in their heart. > >It's that kind of hostility and unwillingness to accept their own >terms when it isn't self-serving that gets me pissed off and angry at >many post avant pundits. I don't like the unwritten rule that appears >to read something like "your with us or your against us" and which >apparently means I can like Eigner or Jack Gilbert, but not both... if >I do, I'm somehow sucking the soul out of new poetry and selling my >own at the same time. > >c > >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > There are poems I enjoy living with that I couldn't explain or > understand in > > other terms but for some reason give me pleasure, keep me trying, > > whatever--a sense that tho I can't grasp it there's something there, an > > engendered trust in the poe,/poet. Sometimes I get the mechanics of it in > > the end. But finally a lot of poetry can't be understood in terms > other than > > its own. Much of the language of critical theory attempts to deal > with this, > > usually, as far as I can tell, without much success. > > > > Mark > > > > At 03:22 PM 7/3/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > >> > A good place to start would be the Rothenberg > >> > and Joris Poems for the Millennium, in two volumes. > >> > Don't skip the first volume, which runs to > >> > 1950--the foundations of much of what's > >> > followed is in it. And it's a lot of > >> > fun. > >> > >> I've eyed this set before. sounds like it's time to pick it up. > >> > >> Tangentially, have you (and anyone else) seen the _American Hybrid_ > >> anthology? I find the area it proposes to cover-- the porous borders > >> between these poetries-- interesting, not least because I have hopes > >> it will help me figure some of this out. > >> > >> c > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 01:46:59 2009 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 61, Issue 14 Message-ID: <829346.73154.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> sweet baby jesus: who, in what Shakespeare play, said, "kill the lawyers." ugh, i've been drinking. gots to read the entire thread before i can insult anyone. --- On Fri, 7/3/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 61, Issue 14 To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edDate: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:22 PM Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to ??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at ??? new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (SULLIVAN) ???2. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) ???3. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (Ron Silliman) ???4. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (SULLIVAN) ???5. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (SULLIVAN) ???6. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (TheOldMole) ???7. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (SULLIVAN) ???8. Re: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs ? ? ? (Halvard Johnson) ???9. Re: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs (TheOldMole) ? 10. Re: Poetry library (David Graham) ? 11. Re: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs (SULLIVAN) ? 12. Re: An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs (TheOldMole) ? 13. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (David Graham) ? 14. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (AlMaginnes@aol.com) ? 15. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (SULLIVAN) ? 16. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (Bob Grumman) ? 17. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (Catherine Daly) ? 18. Re: Poetry library/Valparaiso (David Graham) ? 19. Re: what I meant by "fact-free" (Catherine Daly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:45:11 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided? below.? If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say in Ireland, read the book. In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds political language in his code samples.? Take this snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of comments in code: ? ? ? ? ? ? Happy May Day!? ? ? (Glazier, 2002: 107). In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word? "Comrade," which is often? associated with Marxism.? Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002).? In instances like this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political communication. It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry conferences. Mary Ann SULLIVAN Avoidance?? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original Message ----- ? From: AlMaginnes@aol.com ? To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM ? Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" ? Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital poets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? _______________________________________________ ? New-Poetry mailing list ? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/1cf70ed4/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:52:20 EDT From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:24:23 PM Central Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: > > > Hmmm,? This faulkner thing seems like a red herring to me.? Anyone else > smell fish? > > "My mother is a fish." ? ? ???Faulkner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fc8a29e4/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:56:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" ??? , ??? SULLIVAN Message-ID: <851728.42335.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 And this has what to do with SUNY-Buffalo having or not having an MFA program? Puzzled & bemused, Ron --- On Fri, 7/3/09, SULLIVAN wrote: > From: SULLIVAN > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:17 PM > What about this fact? > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, > Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of > bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds > political language in his code samples.? Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation > of the use of comments in code: > > > ? ? ? ? ??? color="red">Happy May Day!? ? > ? (Glazier, 2002: 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the > word? "Comrade," which is often? associated with > Marxism.? Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the > working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, > 1932, 2002).? In instances like this, Glazier seems to > use his book as a venue for political communication. It > should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues > to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry > conferences. > > Mary Ann > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 > > From: Bob Grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? > > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > >? ? Views" > > Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > > > Ron Silliman wrote: > >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT > have an MFA program. > > It has the equivalent of one. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the > MFA-type degree, in which many students receive precious > little background as to the histories and politics of their > various genre. It's only if you take such a broad view that > any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of > equation you are making is plausible. > > > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and > how many other slam poets are teaching now? For a genre that > has been allergic to reading, that is pretty amazing, > frankly. > > > > The academy has complex and often problematic > dynamics, but it should never be reduced to the kind of > black/white analysis that has mostly been the case here. > > > > Says I with my high school diploma, > > > > Ron Silliman > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:56:48 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "My teacher is a whale." Melville ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: Rsgwynn1@cs.com ? To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:52 PM ? Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" ? In a message dated 7/3/2009 3:24:23 PM Central Daylight Time, msullivan@metrocast.net writes: ? ? Hmmm,? This faulkner thing seems like a red herring to me.? Anyone else smell fish? ? "My mother is a fish." ? ? ? ???Faulkner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? _______________________________________________ ? New-Poetry mailing list ? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/eef9ac58/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:57:49 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" ??? Message-ID: <023E6ECD97CB43E296AF8EC37E365F88@Dissertation> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; ??? reply-type=original Puzzles are good for the brain. Muses are good for the poet. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" ; "SULLIVAN" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" And this has what to do with SUNY-Buffalo having or not having an MFA program? Puzzled & bemused, Ron --- On Fri, 7/3/09, SULLIVAN wrote: > From: SULLIVAN > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 4:17 PM > What about this fact? > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, > Loss Pequeno Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of > bringing politics into poetry. For example, he embeds > political language in his code samples. Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation > of the use of comments in code: > > > color="red">Happy May Day! > (Glazier, 2002: 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the > word "Comrade," which is often associated with > Marxism. Note, too, the reference to "red" and "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the > working class and shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, > 1932, 2002). In instances like this, Glazier seems to > use his book as a venue for political communication. It > should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable in the field of digital poetry, and continues > to be the guest speaker at international e-poetry > conferences. > > Mary Ann > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:59:48 -0500 > > From: Bob Grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFAs at SUNY-Buffalo? > > To: rsillima@yahoo.com, > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > > Views" > > Message-ID: <4A4E5524.4000603@nut-n-but.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > > > Ron Silliman wrote: > >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT > have an MFA program. > > It has the equivalent of one. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > No, Bob, it was set up explicitly in opposition to the > MFA-type degree, in which many students receive precious > little background as to the histories and politics of their > various genre. It's only if you take such a broad view that > any going to college becomes suspect that the kind of > equation you are making is plausible. > > > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and > how many other slam poets are teaching now? For a genre that > has been allergic to reading, that is pretty amazing, > frankly. > > > > The academy has complex and often problematic > dynamics, but it should never be reduced to the kind of > black/white analysis that has mostly been the case here. > > > > Says I with my high school diploma, > > > > Ron Silliman > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:01:33 -0400 From: TheOldMole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: <4A4E71AD.9050400@opus40.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Have I just been lazy and not following enough threads recently, or is Mary Ann Sullivan a new voice in these parts? If so, a welcome one. If not, sorry about not seeing your posts before, Mary Ann, very glad to be seeing them now. SULLIVAN wrote: > I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided? below. > > If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say > in Ireland, read the book. > > In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno > Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into > poetry. > For example, he embeds political language in his code samples.? Take this > snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of > comments in code: > > >? ? ? ? ? ???Happy May Day!? ? ? (Glazier, 2002: > 107). > > In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word? "Comrade," > which is > often? associated with Marxism.? Note, too, the reference to "red" and > "May > Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and > shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002).? In instances like > this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political > communication. > It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as > knowledgeable > in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at > international e-poetry conferences. > > Mary Ann SULLIVAN > > > > > > > > Avoidance?? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original > Message ----- > >? ???*From:* AlMaginnes@aol.com >? ???*To:* new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >? ???*Sent:* Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM >? ???*Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > >? ???Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital >? ???poets. > >? ???------------------------------------------------------------------------ >? ???Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes >? ??? for the >? ???grill. > >? ???------------------------------------------------------------------------ >? ???_______________________________________________ >? ???New-Poetry mailing list >? ???New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >? ???http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >??? -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:04:16 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; ??? reply-type=response Yoh, ole mole. Been here long enough to know what's going on. Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" > Have I just been lazy and not following enough threads recently, or is > Mary Ann Sullivan a new voice in these parts? If so, a welcome one. If > not, sorry about not seeing your posts before, Mary Ann, very glad to be > seeing them now. > > > SULLIVAN wrote: >> I think I can't be more specific than the facts I've provided? below. >> If you need more facts than these, you'll need to, as they say in >> Ireland, read the book. >> >> In his book, Digital Poetics: The Making of e-Poetries, Loss Pequeno >> Glazier, (at SUNY) continues the tradition of bringing politics into >> poetry. >> For example, he embeds political language in his code samples.? Take this >> snippet of code that appears in his elementary explanation of the use of >> comments in code: >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ???Happy May Day!? ? ? (Glazier, 2002: >> 107). >> >> In the sample provided above Glazier also uses the word? "Comrade," which >> is >> often? associated with Marxism.? Note, too, the reference to "red" and >> "May >> Day," the latter being related to the struggle of the working class and >> shortening of the work day (Trachtenberg, 1932, 2002).? In instances like >> this, Glazier seems to use his book as a venue for political >> communication. >> It should be noted that Glazier is honored in the academy as >> knowledgeable >> in the field of digital poetry, and continues to be the guest speaker at >> international e-poetry conferences. >> >> Mary Ann SULLIVAN >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Avoidance?? That might be what you're doing here. ----- Original >> Message ----- >> >>? ???*From:* AlMaginnes@aol.com >>? ???*To:* new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>? ???*Sent:* Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM >>? ???*Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" >> >>? ???Nice avoidance of the issue. Is that what they teach you digital >>? ???poets. >> >>? ???------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>? ???Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes >>? ??? for the >>? ???grill. >> >>? ???------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>? ???_______________________________________________ >>? ???New-Poetry mailing list >>? ???New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>? ???http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:09:57 -0500 From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting ??? Programs To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > "An official literary culture tends to exclude."? And plenty of MFA-gotten > folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative joy and practical use > in the programmes, which, as you rightly point out, Mark, is largely a USA > thing. > One of my mantras:? Few situations are not helped by more information. > > Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding "official > literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], we may as well be > finding that MFA students who may not otherwise have discovered their own > poetry-writing power will go on to develop it and open further networked > doors to others. > > Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing giants? >? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has always done---and in > the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a precious few become recognised > for their poetic gifts; namely, a Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from > [past? through? beyond?] a similar excluding conservative mix. > > Am I backing MFA programmes?? Yes. > > Would I like to see other options?? Most definitely.? As just one example > of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary schools, middle > schools, high schools, city colleges, universities, as well as public and > private libraries, encourage poetry-writing groups.? One brilliant mentor, > like Philip Hobsbaum at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of > poet-geniuses. > > As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with mentors. >? Nice, that. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/7/2 Mark Weiss > >> An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're developing an >> official literary culture. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/fd6b1912/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:13:27 -0400 From: TheOldMole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting ??? Programs To: halvard@gmail.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & ??? Views" Message-ID: <4A4E7477.9070204@opus40.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. Halvard Johnson wrote: > I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince > > > wrote: > >? ???"An official literary culture tends to exclude."? And plenty of >? ???MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative >? ???joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly >? ???point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. > >? ???One of my mantras:? Few situations are not helped by more >? ???information.? > >? ???Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >? ???"official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], >? ???we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise >? ???have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to >? ???develop it and open further networked doors to others.? > >? ???Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >? ???giants?? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has >? ???always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a >? ???precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a >? ???Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] >? ???a similar excluding conservative mix.? > >? ???Am I backing MFA programmes?? Yes.? > >? ???Would I like to see other options?? Most definitely.? As just one >? ???example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >? ???schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, >? ???universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage >? ???poetry-writing groups.? One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum >? ???at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. > >? ???As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >? ???mentors.? Nice, that. > >? ???Best, > >? ???Judy > > >? ???2009/7/2 Mark Weiss ? ???> > >? ? ? ???An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're >? ? ? ???developing an official literary culture. > >? ? ? >? ??? > > >? ???_______________________________________________ >? ???New-Poetry mailing list >? ???New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >? ???http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >??? -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:14:58 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry library To: NewPoetry Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="US-ASCII" By all means, point me to anything you'd care to that's online, Tad.? My site is perpetually in need of updating, of course. On 7/3/09 2:53 PM, "TheOldMole" wrote: > Got it working now. It was my fault. Great bunch of essays. Nothing by me. -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:17:20 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting ??? Programs To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? , Message-ID: <2B2646920E2C4419AE30F87B100F5C47@Dissertation> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; ??? reply-type=response Hang on, if you can. This one's going to be for the gipper. Signing off, to celebrate independence day, Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs > And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: >> I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. >> >> Hal >> >> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--Joseph Stalin >> >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >>? ???"An official literary culture tends to exclude."? And plenty of >>? ???MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative >>? ???joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly >>? ???point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. >> >>? ???One of my mantras:? Few situations are not helped by more >>? ???information. >>? ???Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >>? ???"official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], >>? ???we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise >>? ???have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to >>? ???develop it and open further networked doors to others. >>? ???Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >>? ???giants?? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has >>? ???always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a >>? ???precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a >>? ???Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] >>? ???a similar excluding conservative mix. >>? ???Am I backing MFA programmes?? Yes. >>? ???Would I like to see other options?? Most definitely.? As just one >>? ???example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >>? ???schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, >>? ???universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage >>? ???poetry-writing groups.? One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum >>? ???at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. >>? ???As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >>? ???mentors.? Nice, that. >> >>? ???Best, >> >>? ???Judy >> >>? ???2009/7/2 Mark Weiss >? ???> >> >>? ? ? ???An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're >>? ? ? ???developing an official literary culture. >> >>? ? ? >> >>? ???_______________________________________________ >>? ???New-Poetry mailing list >>? ???New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>? ???http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:20:53 -0400 From: TheOldMole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting ??? Programs To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: <4A4E7635.4000401@opus40.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On my way to the Hudson Valley Renegades game and fireworks afterwards. SULLIVAN wrote: > Hang on, if you can. > > This one's going to be for the gipper. > > Signing off, to celebrate independence day, > > Mary Ann > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" > To: ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting > Programs > > >> And I've loved you since heaven knows when. There, I've said it again. >> >> Halvard Johnson wrote: >>> I know nothing of MFA programs. There I said it. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >>> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--Joseph Stalin >>> >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Judy Prince >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>? ???"An official literary culture tends to exclude."? And plenty of >>>? ???MFA-gotten folk have, like Anny Ballardini, found much creative >>>? ???joy and practical use in the programmes, which, as you rightly >>>? ???point out, Mark, is largely a USA thing. >>> >>>? ???One of my mantras:? Few situations are not helped by more >>>? ???information. >>>? ???Hence, at the understandable risk of a deepened/widened excluding >>>? ???"official literary culture" [I completely agree with Mark here], >>>? ???we may as well be finding that MFA students who may not otherwise >>>? ???have discovered their own poetry-writing power will go on to >>>? ???develop it and open further networked doors to others. >>>? ???Will those poets become---and grow---the fairly rare poem-writing >>>? ???giants?? Yes, in the same way that conservative training has >>>? ???always done---and in the opposite way of excluding many, of whom a >>>? ???precious few become recognised for their poetic gifts; namely, a >>>? ???Dickinson and a Shaksper who emerged from [past? through? beyond?] >>>? ???a similar excluding conservative mix. >>>? ???Am I backing MFA programmes?? Yes. >>>? ???Would I like to see other options?? Most definitely.? As just one >>>? ???example of many, I'd like to see childcare centers, elementary >>>? ???schools, middle schools, high schools, city colleges, >>>? ???universities, as well as public and private libraries, encourage >>>? ???poetry-writing groups.? One brilliant mentor, like Philip Hobsbaum >>>? ???at Belfast and Glasgow, can hone a generation of poet-geniuses. >>>? ???As another example, I see NP and other poetrylists as loaded with >>>? ???mentors.? Nice, that. >>> >>>? ???Best, >>> >>>? ???Judy >>> >>>? ???2009/7/2 Mark Weiss >>? ???> >>> >>>? ? ? ???An official literary culture tends to exclude. We're >>>? ? ? ???developing an official literary culture. >>> >>>? ? ? >>> >>>? ???_______________________________________________ >>>? ???New-Poetry mailing list >>>? ???New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>? ???http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:24:29 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what I meant by "fact-free" To: , NewPoetry Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="US-ASCII" On 7/3/09 3:14 PM, "Ron Silliman" wrote: > > Also, for the record, M.K. Asante, Tracie Morris and how many other slam poets > are teaching now? For a genre that has been allergic to reading, that is > pretty amazing, frankly. > > The academy has complex and often problematic dynamics, but it should never be > reduced to the kind of black/white analysis that has mostly been the case > here. -- Hear, hear.? No one else might care, but I agree seldom enough with Ron Silliman that this seems like an occasion worth noting. Speaking of slam poets entering the academy, this past semester at Ripon College we had Patricia Smith come for a visit.? She was terrific in every way, and in my Poetry Aloud class spoke quite eloquently about what slam poetry gave her, and why she has moved beyond it.? She just accepted her first tenure-track teaching job, by the way. There are many things wrong with the academy, I'll be the first to concur. But as more and more people like Smith enter, it will inevitably alter the academy for the good, I believe. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:28:31 EDT From: AlMaginnes@aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry. All that different colored font makes my eyes hurt. All that? pretension makes my brain hurt. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/6b72d36d/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:47:06 -0400 From: "SULLIVAN" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yawning.? Dull indeed. Weren't YOU the one who made it red?? Or should I, in this case, say read? Signing off for independence day. Remember, this one is gonna be for the gipper, Mary Ann ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: AlMaginnes@aol.com ? To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:28 PM ? Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" ? Sorry. All that different colored font makes my eyes hurt. All that pretension makes my brain hurt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? _______________________________________________ ? New-Poetry mailing list ? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/c3a3430e/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:52:11 -0500 From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: rsillima@yahoo.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & ??? Views" Message-ID: <4A4E8B9B.8050503@nut-n-but.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Ron Silliman wrote: >??? >> I hate to seem pedantic, but SUNY-Buffalo does NOT have an MFA program. >>? ??? > It has the equivalent of one. > > --Bob G. > > No, Bob, Does SUNY, Buffalo, give no masters in English?? Surely they give BA's in English.? My point is that they give some graduates some kind of document that is useful in going on in the business in a way your high school diploma and my belated BA from Cal State, Northridge would not. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/c8ce3024/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:02:44 -0700 From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 CSUN has an MA in creative writing.? Grads include Ara Shirinyan; faculty, poet Leilani Hall (who has a PhD). -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:03:27 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry library/Valparaiso To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &??? Views" ??? Message-ID: <660FDFF5-581A-40EE-B541-559392511F64@ripon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ed, thanks for the heads-up.? I've corrected all the pages I could? think of. This one, however, goes to an Error 404 page every time: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/grahamannabelles.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 3, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Edward Byrne wrote: > A great collection of essays and links. However, the links to? > essays appearing in _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ need a slight? > correction. If you could remove "english/" from each one, you will? > have a direct link to the essays. > > The disk space needed for storing VPR has grown tremendously since? > all issues are maintained in its archive; consequently, the? > university recently decided to move VPR out of the English? > department website and give it an independent location online. This? > change of address initially has caused some difficulties with many? > existing links around the Internet, but certainly it was necessary. > > Thanks, again, > Ed > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne@valpo.edu > Home Page: > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > Blog: > http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr@valpo.edu > VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/7bcb1018/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:03:29 -0700 From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what I meant by "fact-free" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 CSUN has an MA in creative writing.? Grads include Ara Shirinyan; faculty, poet Leilani Hall (who has a PhD). -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 61, Issue 14 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090703/a66d5255/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 04:40:52 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I was really talking about "difficult" poetry, the kind that doesn't yield > easily to understanding, that makes you search for how to read it. But why is that difference significant if, in the end, you are relying on a feeling that you can't explain? Regardless of the difficulty, you are pointing to a subjective, aesthetic opinion and saying it's sufficient. I agree. I just wonder why people want to pick and choose *when* it's sufficient. > To put this in perspective, my mother told me that when she was in college, > circa 1939, the class read a poem by Wallace Stevens to universal confusion, > and the professor admitted that he didn't get it either and almost nobody > did. Yesterday's difficult art is often today's staple. It's clearer, maybe, > in the visual arts or music. Pollock doesn't present particular challenges > any more, and a great deal of once-unplayable music is now taught to > teenagers in conservatories. The culture simply no longer finds the work > off-puttingly strange. Sure, I use various modern artists and free jazz as analogies all the time. You won't see me arguing with that. I just made this same kind of case on my blog, referencing bop and free jazz and how they were seen as non-musical, unplayable, unlistenable, etc. Now much of that is part of the mainstream scene. On the other hand, the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no guarantee it will continue to have value. Some things don't get absorbed, but just fade away. It does trouble me that I've been able to find my way inside of other kinds of new art far more readily than poetry. > The effort of learning how to read the poem can be what's most compelling. Maybe this is the most significant difference, because I'm not sure I agree. In the end, it's the reading of the poem that matters most to me, not how hard I worked to get to the point I could, or how hard I worked to create sufficient meaning given writing that is more the stuff of poems than actually being a poem. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 07:02:22 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 61, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <829346.73154.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <829346.73154.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4F36BE.5040208@nut-n-but.net> stephen russell wrote: > sweet baby jesus: who, in what Shakespeare play, said, "kill the > lawyers." ugh, i've been drinking. gots to read the entire thread > before i can insult anyone. > Jack Cade in 2 Henry VI --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/2fd560eb/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 07:10:11 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net><4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > I can't disagree with any of this... I'm careful always to note that > I'm not looking for traditional teaching. I just think that the best > way to bring poetry to life is by sharing poems. > > Anyway, this inability to explain poems that give you pleasure makes > perfect sense. I wonder why it's a red flag to so many when that claim > is made w/r/t a poem or poet they don't like? For instance, say that a > James Wright poem gives you pleasure for some reason that you can't > explain and many in the post-avant will do their best to eviscerate > your parochialism. > > Seems to me that it's a reasonable explanation and, because it is so, > negative poetics and the attempt to build one school up by tearing > another down are diseased in their heart. > > It's that kind of hostility and unwillingness to accept their own > terms when it isn't self-serving that gets me pissed off and angry at > many post avant pundits. I don't like the unwritten rule that appears > to read something like "your with us or your against us" and which > apparently means I can like Eigner or Jack Gilbert, but not both... if > I do, I'm somehow sucking the soul out of new poetry and selling my > own at the same time. > > c To each his own, Chris, but what you say about yourself, along with your stance toward taxonomy and terminology, etc., just identifies you as anti-intellectual. I believe that any poem that no one, after a reasonably long time, can explain the value of is no good. (I believe I can fairly easily explain the value of the James Wright poems I like.) I think some people rave over certain poems without being able to say why they're good because of extra-aesthetic delight over, say, their politics, or because a relative created it. This isn't to say that one can very much like an artwork for a long time without being able to pin down why, but one should eventually be able to. The universe is, ultimately, understandable (except for why it exists, which you simply have to accept). --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 07:52:46 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4F428E.4030900@nut-n-but.net> Chris, I can tell you that some jingle gives me pleasure because it rhymes. That it rhymes is an objective fact. Then I can tell you that human beings are designed to react with pleasure to repetition--unless it is too expected, which results in boredom. Why human beings react that way I can't explain. But an objective explanation can't be objective all the way down to the premise you derive it from. That doesn't make it wholly subjective. Wholly subjective, in this case, is "I like this jingle 'cause I like it. Can't explain why and don't have to." I would, by the way, agree you don't have to--unless you want to convince others you're not a solipsist. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 08:59:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry library In-Reply-To: <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5936.1090206@opus40.org> <4A4E5B69.5040903@opus40.org> <1785FE92-8817-45F7-8C54-E50A39C080EC@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907040559j5ee3530dv3e11bef22aa8a10a@mail.gmail.com> Everything works, if I may suggest, put the gray background also here: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Graham wrote: > Hmmm. The links work for me, Tad. Anyone else have problems? > Essays page: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Essays.html > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:26 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > David -- has your site gotten too fancy, graphics-wise, or is it just me? I > can't get past the front page of your essays section. > > Chris Lott wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/80ec8fc6/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 09:00:55 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] [POL] Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907040600i41d0a7aax98a3ea7a933acbb9@mail.gmail.com> Independence Day and Palin shows up. Talk of politics. The poetry community should learn from Lady Palin. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/f0d3b497/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 09:06:17 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's & others' essays online In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E567F.1030500@opus40.org> <4A4E5A6F.20701@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907040606hfef0953tc0b80221c6cfc1c2@mail.gmail.com> Poor Chris, thanks god there is Bob who shares/cares... :-) On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:22 AM, TheOldMole wrote: > > David doesn't have to be alone in blowing his own horn here. His Poetry > > Library is a national treasure. > > > > Hey, David, Mark, Bob, Chris -- what are you all doing sitting in front > of > > your computers at the start of a holiday weekend? > > Somewhat ironically, I'm hoping to dig myself out of the depression > that some of these poetics discussions (not specifically here, it > started-- as it often does-- with Silliman's blog) bring on. Kind of > like a gambler who thinks just one more bet will take care of > everything. > > I don't know how others manage to stay so detached (or appear that > way) or even not care much that this divide exists, happy to be on one > side or the other, not threatened or inadequate. > > I think I'll go outside for a while. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/c5f4e812/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jul 4 09:45:14 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berryman Message-ID: <07D0EB6A-3540-4816-8CE4-37B582A3C7D5@ripon.edu> Of 1826 I am the little man who smokes & smokes. I am the girl who does know better but. I am the king of the pool. I am so wise I had my mouth sewn shut. I am a government official & a goddamned fool. I am a lady who takes jokes. I am the enemy of the mind. I am the auto salesman and l?ve you. I am a teenage cancer, with a plan. I am the blackt-out man. I am the woman powerful as a zoo. I am two eyes screwed to my set, whose blind-- It is the Fourth of July. Collect: while the dying man, forgone by you creator, who forgives, is gasping 'Thomas Jefferson still lives' in vain, in vain, in vain. I am Henry Pussy-cat! My whiskers fly. --John Berryman. Dream Songs #22. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/21636c92/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jul 4 09:47:36 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Hicok Message-ID: Founder's day I introduced John Adams to the Pacific and likewise I am sure. The book by McCullough, not the book by Chinard. Carried it in December from Michigan where it's cold to California where it's not Michigan. America did not include Point Lobos when he was alive. America included horses and bloodletting and Jefferson, who died with Adams on the same Fourth of July. The Pacific is wide and deep and Adams was wide and deep, was fat and obstinate and wrote tender letters to his wife. Not the letters but the words were tender, not the words but their meaning, which was always that he missed her, always that he wanted nothing more than home in her arms. So I have made him travel again, as with Holland, as with France, years out of country but never out of hope. Brought him to hear the calliope of seals, to smell cypress and salt where the world's cracked open, is not ashamed to reveal its faults. And raised there the book with his face on the cover? powdered hair and pink cheeks, a chin hiding behind other chins? to be kissed by an ocean he never saw from this, the prow of the ship he dreamed. -- Bob Hicok. The Southern Review, 2004. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/cab8e088/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jul 4 09:59:34 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine/The Great Compromise Message-ID: <6E3D7718-0474-4976-8F58-DBA44C94BC05@ripon.edu> The Great Compromise I knew a girl who was almost a lady She had a way with all the men in her life Every inch of her blossomed in beauty And she was born on the fourth of July Well she lived in an aluminum house trailer And she worked in a juke box saloon And she spent all the money I give her Just to see the old man in the moon Chorus: I used to sleep at the foot of Old Glory And awake in the dawn's early light But much to my surprise When I opened my eyes I was a victim of the great compromise Well we'd go out on Saturday evenings To the drive-in on Route 41 And it was there that I first suspected That she was doin' what she'd already done She said "Johnny won't you get me some popcorn" And she knew I had to walk pretty far And as soon as I passed through the moonlight She hopped into a foreign sports car (Repeat chorus) Well you know I could have beat up that fellow But it was her that had hopped into his car Many times I'd fought to protect her But this time she was goin' too far Now some folks they call me a coward 'Cause I left her at the drive-in that night But I'd druther have names thrown at me Than to fight for a thing that ain't right (Repeat chorus) Now she writes all the fellows love letters Saying "Greetings, come and see me real soon" And they go and line up in the barroom And spend the night in that sick woman's room But sometimes I get awful lonesome And I wish she was my girl instead But she won't let me live with her And she makes me live in my head (Repeat chorus) --John Prine. Diamonds in the Rough. Atlantic Records, 1972. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/984d1592/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Jul 4 10:29:34 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine/The Great Compromise Message-ID: One of Prine's best. I used to teach this back when. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/4cadf67e/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 10:32:18 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not make one anti-Staten Island. Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > >> I can't disagree with any of this... I'm careful always to note that >> I'm not looking for traditional teaching. I just think that the best >> way to bring poetry to life is by sharing poems. >> >> Anyway, this inability to explain poems that give you pleasure makes >> perfect sense. I wonder why it's a red flag to so many when that claim >> is made w/r/t a poem or poet they don't like? For instance, say that a >> James Wright poem gives you pleasure for some reason that you can't >> explain and many in the post-avant will do their best to eviscerate >> your parochialism. >> >> Seems to me that it's a reasonable explanation and, because it is so, >> negative poetics and the attempt to build one school up by tearing >> another down are diseased in their heart. >> >> It's that kind of hostility and unwillingness to accept their own >> terms when it isn't self-serving that gets me pissed off and angry at >> many post avant pundits. I don't like the unwritten rule that appears >> to read something like "your with us or your against us" and which >> apparently means I can like Eigner or Jack Gilbert, but not both... if >> I do, I'm somehow sucking the soul out of new poetry and selling my >> own at the same time. >> >> c >> > To each his own, Chris, but what you say about yourself, along with your > stance toward taxonomy and terminology, etc., just identifies you as > anti-intellectual. I believe that any poem that no one, after a reasonably > long time, can explain the value of is no good. (I believe I can fairly > easily explain the value of the James Wright poems I like.) I think some > people rave over certain poems without being able to say why they're good > because of extra-aesthetic delight over, say, their politics, or because a > relative created it. This isn't to say that one can very much like an > artwork for a long time without being able to pin down why, but one should > eventually be able to. The universe is, ultimately, understandable (except > for why it exists, which you simply have to accept). > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/1e7c1457/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Jul 4 10:57:28 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine/The Great Compromise In-Reply-To: <6E3D7718-0474-4976-8F58-DBA44C94BC05@ripon.edu> References: <6E3D7718-0474-4976-8F58-DBA44C94BC05@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A4F6DD8.50602@opus40.org> The Power And The Glory By Phil Ochs Come and take a walk with me thru this green and growing land Walk thru the meadows and the mountains and the sand Walk thru the valleys and the rivers and the plains Walk thru the sun and walk thru the rain Here is a land full of power and glory Beauty that words cannot recall Oh her power shall rest on the strength of her freedom Her glory shall rest on us all (on us all) From Colorado, Kansas, and the Carolinas too Virginia and Alaska, from the old to the new Texas and Ohio and the California shore Tell me, who could ask for more? Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of her poor Only as free as the padlocked prison door Only as strong as our love for this land Only as tall as we stand David Graham wrote: > *The Great Compromise* > > I knew a girl who was almost a lady > She had a way with all the men in her life > Every inch of her blossomed in beauty > And she was born on the fourth of July > Well she lived in an aluminum house trailer > And she worked in a juke box saloon > And she spent all the money I give her > Just to see the old man in the moon > > Chorus: > I used to sleep at the foot of Old Glory > And awake in the dawn's early light > But much to my surprise > When I opened my eyes > I was a victim of the great compromise > > Well we'd go out on Saturday evenings > To the drive-in on Route 41 > And it was there that I first suspected > That she was doin' what she'd already done > She said "Johnny won't you get me some popcorn" > And she knew I had to walk pretty far > And as soon as I passed through the moonlight > She hopped into a foreign sports car > > (Repeat chorus) > > Well you know I could have beat up that fellow > But it was her that had hopped into his car > Many times I'd fought to protect her > But this time she was goin' too far > Now some folks they call me a coward > 'Cause I left her at the drive-in that night > But I'd druther have names thrown at me > Than to fight for a thing that ain't right > > (Repeat chorus) > > Now she writes all the fellows love letters > Saying "Greetings, come and see me real soon" > And they go and line up in the barroom > And spend the night in that sick woman's room > But sometimes I get awful lonesome > And I wish she was my girl instead > But she won't let me live with her > And she makes me live in my head > > (Repeat chorus) > > --John Prine. /Diamonds in the Rough. /Atlantic Records, 1972. > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Jul 4 11:06:12 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine/The Great Compromise In-Reply-To: <4A4F6DD8.50602@opus40.org> References: <6E3D7718-0474-4976-8F58-DBA44C94BC05@ripon.edu> <4A4F6DD8.50602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A4F6FE4.2020809@opus40.org> And here -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ob7cDBMc6g TheOldMole wrote: > The Power And The Glory > By Phil Ochs > Come and take a walk with me thru this green and growing land > Walk thru the meadows and the mountains and the sand > Walk thru the valleys and the rivers and the plains > Walk thru the sun and walk thru the rain > > Here is a land full of power and glory > Beauty that words cannot recall > Oh her power shall rest on the strength of her freedom > Her glory shall rest on us all (on us all) > > From Colorado, Kansas, and the Carolinas too > Virginia and Alaska, from the old to the new > Texas and Ohio and the California shore > Tell me, who could ask for more? > > Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of her poor > Only as free as the padlocked prison door > Only as strong as our love for this land > Only as tall as we stand > > > > > David Graham wrote: >> *The Great Compromise* >> >> I knew a girl who was almost a lady >> She had a way with all the men in her life >> Every inch of her blossomed in beauty >> And she was born on the fourth of July >> Well she lived in an aluminum house trailer >> And she worked in a juke box saloon >> And she spent all the money I give her >> Just to see the old man in the moon >> >> Chorus: >> I used to sleep at the foot of Old Glory >> And awake in the dawn's early light >> But much to my surprise >> When I opened my eyes >> I was a victim of the great compromise >> >> Well we'd go out on Saturday evenings >> To the drive-in on Route 41 >> And it was there that I first suspected >> That she was doin' what she'd already done >> She said "Johnny won't you get me some popcorn" >> And she knew I had to walk pretty far >> And as soon as I passed through the moonlight >> She hopped into a foreign sports car >> >> (Repeat chorus) >> >> Well you know I could have beat up that fellow >> But it was her that had hopped into his car >> Many times I'd fought to protect her >> But this time she was goin' too far >> Now some folks they call me a coward >> 'Cause I left her at the drive-in that night >> But I'd druther have names thrown at me >> Than to fight for a thing that ain't right >> >> (Repeat chorus) >> >> Now she writes all the fellows love letters >> Saying "Greetings, come and see me real soon" >> And they go and line up in the barroom >> And spend the night in that sick woman's room >> But sometimes I get awful lonesome >> And I wish she was my girl instead >> But she won't let me live with her >> And she makes me live in my head >> >> (Repeat chorus) >> >> --John Prine. /Diamonds in the Rough. /Atlantic Records, 1972. >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 12:20:30 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not > make one anti-Staten Island. > > Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother Point taken, Hal. Non-intellectual? --Bob From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jul 4 11:17:07 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid Message-ID: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John anthology, *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've given it a quick library skim, and it does look interesting. Will definitely check it out sometime. Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles- wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/2832836f/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sat Jul 4 11:21:55 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine/The Great Compromise Message-ID: Love this song. **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/c192b265/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 12:30:30 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I have a feeling we're talking past each other here. I'm not proposing that "the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no guarantee it will continue to have value." A species of the difficult is poetry written in a foreign language. I'm a translator. My Spanish is way too weak for what I undertake, but translators who are profoundly fluent report very much the same thing. All romance languages sound pretty to Germanic ears, but once one gets past that, in reading a poem in Spanish, even if one barely grasps its easiest layer of meaning, one senses the honesty of the effort and that there's something to be gained from going further. One falls in love, as with another human being, on the basis of what would appear to be insufficient evidence. As it happens, one gets fooled, but only occasionally. The poem, as one begins to translate, may turn out not even to be "about" what one thought it was. One discovers layers of meaning and artifice, one acquires the cultural knowledge that the poet demands of us. And eventually not so much an intellectual construct but a picture of the poem's structure and process emerge. This is a profoundly moving experience, and to the extent possible it's what one wants to convey to the reader. Some of the poems one falls in love with are exceptionally difficult even for native speakers. Virtually every lover of poetry in Latin America reveres Jose Lezama Lima's work, but very few would pretend to follow his drift through his complex patterning. But read it aloud and one finds all the richness of the language, and a hallucinatory world of half-glimpsed understandings. The poem demands of you that you come back to it again and again. It's a very long commitment. James Irby, without doubt the profoundest student and translator of Lezama's work (an incredible amount gets lost in translation nonetheless), has written 25 pages of notes on just the first four stanzas of one of the poems, Pensamientos en La Habana. And it changes one's life. I had an extraordinary experience with a short poem of Eliseo Diego, a perfect lyric. I fell in love with it because of its beauty of language and its strangeness. It wasn't until well after I translated it that I understood that in a very brief compass Eliseo was giving us the history of black people in Cuba. The cultural information involved kept thickening. I did an ok job, probably as good as can be done, but hey, it's not the original. Lezama, referring to this process (I use the word advisedly) of discovery, posited that "s?lo lo dif?cil es estimulante." Estimulante is a much more serious word in Spanish than its English cognate. It can be both adjective and noun, and can mean, for instance, the force that though the green fuse drives the flower. "The only true stimulant to growth is that which is difficult," or "only the difficult stimulates growth." Not difficulty for its own sake, but for the sake of growth, which is a process that occurs through the process of discovery. It goes without saying that not everything that appears difficult is stimulating. Difficulty can be worn as a mannerism, and some things turn out to be hollow. The mystery is what it is about a particular poem that makes us persist in the effort, what it is that makes us trust it, even if we have no idea what's going on. Mark At 04:40 AM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I was really talking about "difficult" poetry, the kind that doesn't yield > > easily to understanding, that makes you search for how to read it. > >But why is that difference significant if, in the end, you are relying >on a feeling that you can't explain? Regardless of the difficulty, you >are pointing to a subjective, aesthetic opinion and saying it's >sufficient. I agree. I just wonder why people want to pick and choose >*when* it's sufficient. > > > To put this in perspective, my mother told me that when she was in college, > > circa 1939, the class read a poem by Wallace > Stevens to universal confusion, > > and the professor admitted that he didn't get it either and almost nobody > > did. Yesterday's difficult art is often > today's staple. It's clearer, maybe, > > in the visual arts or music. Pollock doesn't present particular challenges > > any more, and a great deal of once-unplayable music is now taught to > > teenagers in conservatories. The culture simply no longer finds the work > > off-puttingly strange. > >Sure, I use various modern artists and free jazz as analogies all the >time. You won't see me arguing with that. I just made this same kind >of case on my blog, referencing bop and free jazz and how they were >seen as non-musical, unplayable, unlistenable, etc. Now much of that >is part of the mainstream scene. > >On the other hand, the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no >guarantee it will continue to have value. Some things don't get >absorbed, but just fade away. > >It does trouble me that I've been able to find my way inside of other >kinds of new art far more readily than poetry. > > > The effort of learning how to read the poem can be what's most compelling. > >Maybe this is the most significant difference, because I'm not sure I >agree. In the end, it's the reading of the poem that matters most to >me, not how hard I worked to get to the point I could, or how hard I >worked to create sufficient meaning given writing that is more the >stuff of poems than actually being a poem. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 12:54:28 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: You're right Bob. Recognizing that taxonomies have inherent limitations in terms of explanatory and predictive power and agreeing that subjective appraisals can be impossible to explain must mean I'm an anti-intellectual. I guess I'm just not intellectual enough to understand your reasoning. For someone as intellectual as yourself, Bob, I guess it's no problem to make vast leaps like "limitations" mean "worthless" and "some things being inexplicable" means "everything is." If believing that there are times that feeling the power or beauty of something is enough and that some of those experiences can't be productively explained to another and, most importantly, that it's OK for that to be the case, makes me anti-intellectual in your world, then so be it... it's an awfully tiny world in there. c From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 12:57:55 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4F428E.4030900@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F428E.4030900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I don't know who you are talking to Bob, as I've made none of these claims. All I've said is that there is a part of aesthetic experience that is inexplicable and that it strikes me as a bit hypocritical that where the line is drawn for that being a reasonable and sufficient position is often drawn in order to suit the agenda of the person doing the drawing. I can give all kinds of explanations why I like a poem, Bob, but in the end there will always be parts that remain inexplicable. You can talk about the repetition and the biology, but what about something that you find beautiful that I do not? It can't all be explained and sometimes reasonable people disagree. Does that make them anti-intellectual? c On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris, I can tell you that some jingle gives me pleasure because it rhymes. > ?That it rhymes is an objective fact. ?Then I can tell you that human beings > are designed to react with pleasure to repetition--unless it is too > expected, which results in boredom. Why human beings react that way I can't > explain. ?But an objective explanation can't be objective all the way down > to the premise you derive it from. ?That doesn't make it wholly subjective. > ?Wholly subjective, in this case, is "I like this jingle 'cause I like it. > ?Can't explain why and don't have to." ?I would, by the way, agree you don't > have to--unless you want to convince others you're not a solipsist. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 12:59:26 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Here's something non-intellectual for you Bob: fuck off. c (which stands for country bumpkin now) On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not >> make one anti-Staten Island. >> >> Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother > > Point taken, Hal. ?Non-intellectual? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 13:03:41 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I have a feeling we're talking past each other here. I'm not proposing that > "the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no > guarantee it will continue to have value." If you read what I wrote, I wasn't claiming that you did. I was agreeing with you, while pointing out the fact that knowing whether the difficulty one is facing now points to importance or ultimate obscurity can be difficult-- if not impossible-- to know. It appears to me that people get fooled all the time. In love and poetry. In the final reckoning, for me, knowing "what's going on" is interesting and even important, but ultimately less so than whether the poem moves me--whether I can love it-- or not. But then, what do I know-- I'm not a fancy big-city reader like Bob. c From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 13:15:24 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You seemed perplexed about how, and why, to read certain kinds of poems. I was trying to be helpful. Mark At 01:03 PM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > I have a feeling we're talking past each other here. I'm not proposing that > > "the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no > > guarantee it will continue to have value." > >If you read what I wrote, I wasn't claiming that you did. I was >agreeing with you, while pointing out the fact that knowing whether >the difficulty one is facing now points to importance or ultimate >obscurity can be difficult-- if not impossible-- to know. > >It appears to me that people get fooled all the time. In love and poetry. > >In the final reckoning, for me, knowing "what's going on" is >interesting and even important, but ultimately less so than whether >the poem moves me--whether I can love it-- or not. But then, what do I >know-- I'm not a fancy big-city reader like Bob. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 13:22:04 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:46 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You seemed perplexed about how, and why, to read certain kinds of poems. I > was trying to be helpful. And you have. It appears to me we are largely in agreement, right down to the understanding that sometimes there is an inexplicable aspect of affection, which can turn out in the long run to be in accord with others or not, and that sometimes the difficulty can be worth it and and a characteristic of an important poem and sometimes not. It just seemed to me a clarification was called for if you attributed the snippet you quoted from me as being *your* position. c From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 13:26:36 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid In-Reply-To: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> References: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> Swenson and St. John are poets-as-editors I can trust, though the reviewer seems to indicate there is no "hybrid.' Sounds like an interesting collection of work, however, though I can make no sense of reviewer-speak such as "Armantrout has found a happy medium in these poems between the need for recognizable meaning, sense-making, and the equal need for new meaning, making new senses." - Jim On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John anthology, > *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've given it a quick library > skim, and it does look interesting. Will definitely check it out sometime. > Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: > > > http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles-wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ > > *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/541584ad/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 13:28:51 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Makes sense to me, Bob. You can color me non-intellectual too. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not >> make one anti-Staten Island. >> >> Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother >> > Point taken, Hal. Non-intellectual? > > --Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/195261b7/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 13:30:37 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid In-Reply-To: <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> References: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm all for making a new census. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:26 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Swenson and St. John are poets-as-editors I can trust, though the reviewer > seems to indicate there is no "hybrid.' Sounds like an interesting > collection of work, however, though I can make no sense of reviewer-speak > such as "Armantrout has found a happy medium in these poems between the > need for recognizable meaning, sense-making, and the equal need for new > meaning, making new senses." > - Jim > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John anthology, >> *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've given it a quick library >> skim, and it does look interesting. Will definitely check it out sometime. >> Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: >> >> >> http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles-wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ >> >> *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/d093923f/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Jul 4 13:43:30 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid In-Reply-To: References: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4F94C2.6050802@opus40.org> Will Michelle Bachman be included in it? Halvard Johnson wrote: > I'm all for making a new census. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:26 PM, James Cervantes > > wrote: > > Swenson and St. John are poets-as-editors I can trust, though the > reviewer seems to indicate there is no "hybrid.' Sounds like an > interesting collection of work, however, though I can make no > sense of reviewer-speak such as "Armantrout has found a happy > medium in these poems between the need for recognizable meaning, > sense-making, and the equal need for new meaning, making new senses." > > - Jim > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, David Graham > wrote: > > Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John > anthology, *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've > given it a quick library skim, and it does look interesting. > Will definitely check it out sometime. > > Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: > > http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles-wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ > > *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 13:46:39 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid In-Reply-To: <4A4F94C2.6050802@opus40.org> References: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F94C2.6050802@opus40.org> Message-ID: <648208b60907041046p3b9350acm8ba1d558e4382cdd@mail.gmail.com> That twit? And why aren't people on Twitter called Twits? Or Tweetie Birds? - Jim On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:43 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Will Michelle Bachman be included in it? > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> I'm all for making a new census. >> >> Hal >> >> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >> --Joseph Stalin >> >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:26 PM, James Cervantes < >> cervantes.james@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> Swenson and St. John are poets-as-editors I can trust, though the >> reviewer seems to indicate there is no "hybrid.' Sounds like an >> interesting collection of work, however, though I can make no >> sense of reviewer-speak such as "Armantrout has found a happy >> medium in these poems between the need for recognizable meaning, >> sense-making, and the equal need for new meaning, making new senses." >> >> - Jim >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, David Graham > > wrote: >> >> Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John >> anthology, *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've >> given it a quick library skim, and it does look interesting. >> Will definitely check it out sometime. >> >> Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: >> >> >> http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles-wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ >> >> *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/69e89cef/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 13:47:52 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Hybrid In-Reply-To: <4A4F94C2.6050802@opus40.org> References: <546DF695-86CE-48C9-B271-0EF385B76B4C@ripon.edu> <648208b60907041026l1509b445h1865032c8eeb847@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F94C2.6050802@opus40.org> Message-ID: Let's compost her and put her to some good use. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:43 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Will Michelle Bachman be included in it? > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> I'm all for making a new census. >> >> Hal >> >> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >> --Joseph Stalin >> >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:26 PM, James Cervantes < >> cervantes.james@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> Swenson and St. John are poets-as-editors I can trust, though the >> reviewer seems to indicate there is no "hybrid.' Sounds like an >> interesting collection of work, however, though I can make no >> sense of reviewer-speak such as "Armantrout has found a happy >> medium in these poems between the need for recognizable meaning, >> sense-making, and the equal need for new meaning, making new senses." >> >> - Jim >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, David Graham > > wrote: >> >> Chris Lott mentioned the new Cole Swenson/David St. John >> anthology, *American Hybrid*. I haven't read it, though I've >> given it a quick library skim, and it does look interesting. >> Will definitely check it out sometime. >> >> Here's a review, from the July issue of *Gently Read Literature*: >> >> >> http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/self-fiction-gary-charles-wilkens-on-the-anthology-american-hybrid/ >> >> *Gently Read Literature*, by way, is always worth checking out. >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/a97be7d1/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 13:51:25 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In fact, a few hours after you recommended it I (in an act of extreme non- and anti-intellectualism) plunked down $75 for the Joris/Rothenberg anthology you recommended and started reading it last night! c On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You seemed perplexed about how, and why, to read certain kinds of poems. I > was trying to be helpful. > > Mark From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 13:57:39 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By coincidence, I just got off the phone with Jerry. He's off to Ireland in the morning. We talked of food, mostly. As is the case with any anthology, nobody agrees with it fully. I among others (I think you did too, Ron) took it to task for not representing Spicer. But it's an amazing accomplishment. Mark At 01:51 PM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >In fact, a few hours after you recommended it I (in an act of extreme >non- and anti-intellectualism) plunked down $75 for the >Joris/Rothenberg anthology you recommended and started reading it last >night! > >c > >On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > You seemed perplexed about how, and why, to read certain kinds of poems. I > > was trying to be helpful. > > > > Mark >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 14:05:39 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > As is the case with any anthology, nobody agrees with it fully. I among > others (I think you did too, Ron) took it to task for not representing > Spicer. But it's an amazing accomplishment. That angle will be covered with a copy of _My Vocabulary Did This to Me_... c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 15:43:12 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4FB0D0.5070201@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > You're right Bob. Recognizing that taxonomies have inherent > limitations in terms of explanatory and predictive power and agreeing > that subjective appraisals can be impossible to explain must mean I'm > an anti-intellectual. I guess I'm just not intellectual enough to > understand your reasoning. > > For someone as intellectual as yourself, Bob, I guess it's no problem > to make vast leaps like "limitations" mean "worthless" and "some > things being inexplicable" means "everything is." > > If believing that there are times that feeling the power or beauty of > something is enough and that some of those experiences can't be > productively explained to another and, most importantly, that it's OK > for that to be the case, makes me anti-intellectual in your world, > then so be it... it's an awfully tiny world in there. > > c You're being hypersensitive, Chris. This is the Internet. I was trying quickly to make a point. I should have said "not intellectual" or something. I'm as intuitive as anyone, in my opinion--but I think analyticality of equal importance. You seem not to. I tried to show why I think it is. I value you and respect your mind. I feel you have to put up with my sometime lack of tact, and over-haste to erupt against the Extremely Many in the poetry world who seem to me indifferent or hostile to the critical mind, and respect me enough not to feel I'm trivially trying to put you down, if you want to learn anything from me, as you seem to want to. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 16:03:48 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F428E.4030900@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4FB5A4.5030108@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > I don't know who you are talking to Bob, as I've made none of these > claims. All I've said is that there is a part of aesthetic experience > that is inexplicable and that it strikes me as a bit hypocritical that > where the line is drawn for that being a reasonable and sufficient > position is often drawn in order to suit the agenda of the person > doing the drawing. > > I can give all kinds of explanations why I like a poem, Bob, but in > the end there will always be parts that remain inexplicable. You can > talk about the repetition and the biology, but what about something > that you find beautiful that I do not? It can't all be explained and > sometimes reasonable people disagree. Does that make them > anti-intellectual? > > It's counter-productive to squabble over what I thought you were saying versus what you thought you were saying, Chris. I'll just say that I find everything in poems explicable except base emotions, as I tried to explain with my little text about rhymes. My theory of aesthetics explains two equally perceptive poetry engagents' differences in taste pretty much the way common sense does--as due to different background, difference final interests/ affections, etc. If you like peaches and I don't, you are bound to like a poem about peaches more than I. If you have better ears than I, you'll go for formal verse more than I (other things being equal). If I have an innate aptitude for math that you lack, mathematical poems will impress me more than they will you. I believe these things can be objectively determined, and even that poems can be objectively rated putting aside personal preferences. An obvious example would be the decision that a poem about peaches might be equal to one about pears even though You like peaches more than I and therefore prefer the first, and the opposite is true of the other. Just writing scatteredly. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 16:05:33 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net><4A4F814E.90 10906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4FB60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Here's something non-intellectual for you Bob: fuck off. > > c (which stands for country bumpkin now) > Oh, come on. Suggest a word. I only intended to mean not intellectual the way I consider myself. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Sat Jul 4 15:09:22 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A4FB60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4FB60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob: What you call "base emotion," which I agree stems from a world of experience and circumstances, is precisely what I was talking about. It's inexplicable in any productive sense of the term. At some point, many discussions of poetry come to this point of peaches or pears. When *you* say this, it's just logical. When *I* say this, I'm anti- and/or non- intellectual. It seems a pretty clear example of precisely the point I was trying to make, which is that where this kind of position is "allowed" is too often the point which best serves one's agenda. You've made yourself abundantly clear, Bob. I'm sure you meant being anti- and/or non-intellectual in the nicest way possible. It logically follows that my being non-intellectual and/or anti-intellectual makes it very difficult to learn anything from you. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 16:24:23 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net>< f160a1210907040732g76df3ae9sffb15979b92fa674@mail.gmail.com><4A4FB 60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4FBA77.5020006@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Bob: What you call "base emotion," which I agree stems from a world of > experience and circumstances, is precisely what I was talking about. > It's inexplicable in any productive sense of the term. At some point, > many discussions of poetry come to this point of peaches or pears. > When *you* say this, it's just logical. When *I* say this, I'm anti- > and/or non- intellectual. It seems a pretty clear example of precisely > the point I was trying to make, which is that where this kind of > position is "allowed" is too often the point which best serves one's > agenda. > > You've made yourself abundantly clear, Bob. I'm sure you meant being > anti- and/or non-intellectual in the nicest way possible. It logically > follows that my being non-intellectual and/or anti-intellectual makes > it very difficult to learn anything from you. > > c What it indicates, finally, is the value of rigorous definition of terms. I am pretty sure that what you mean by "intellectual" is vastly different from what I was talking about, and--I admit it--badly misusing "anti-intellectual" and "non-intellectual" to denote. Not sure what term I ought to have used. Will think about it. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 15:23:24 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4A4FBA77.5020006@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> < f160a1210907040732g76df3ae9sffb15979b92fa674@mail.gmail.com> <4A4FB 60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net> <4A4FBA77.5020006@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: How about "less analytically-inclined"? I have no idea if this is true, just suggesting what I think you meant. At 04:24 PM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >Chris Lott wrote: >>Bob: What you call "base emotion," which I agree stems from a world of >>experience and circumstances, is precisely what I was talking about. >>It's inexplicable in any productive sense of the term. At some point, >>many discussions of poetry come to this point of peaches or pears. >>When *you* say this, it's just logical. When *I* say this, I'm anti- >>and/or non- intellectual. It seems a pretty clear example of precisely >>the point I was trying to make, which is that where this kind of >>position is "allowed" is too often the point which best serves one's >>agenda. >> >>You've made yourself abundantly clear, Bob. I'm sure you meant being >>anti- and/or non-intellectual in the nicest way possible. It logically >>follows that my being non-intellectual and/or anti-intellectual makes >>it very difficult to learn anything from you. >> >>c >What it indicates, finally, is the value of rigorous definition of >terms. I am pretty sure that what you mean by "intellectual" is >vastly different from what I was talking about, and--I admit >it--badly misusing "anti-intellectual" and "non-intellectual" to >denote. Not sure what term I ought to have used. Will think about it. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 15:50:01 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907041250l41dbdeb8w61f0da51d456e5f2@mail.gmail.com> Poor Mark. But here I am. I understand your passion for the poet you are translating, which is what keeps poor souls like me stuck to the page to connect one word in a language to a similar word into another language. But if "Estimulante" is to be used as a noun, then you need the article. Since in your quotation there is no article, I can take it for granted that it is an adjective and within the context a predicate nominal. On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I have a feeling we're talking past each other here. I'm not proposing that > "the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no > guarantee it will continue to have value." > > A species of the difficult is poetry written in a foreign language. I'm a > translator. My Spanish is way too weak for what I undertake, but translators > who are profoundly fluent report very much the same thing. All romance > languages sound pretty to Germanic ears, but once one gets past that, in > reading a poem in Spanish, even if one barely grasps its easiest layer of > meaning, one senses the honesty of the effort and that there's something to > be gained from going further. One falls in love, as with another human > being, on the basis of what would appear to be insufficient evidence. As it > happens, one gets fooled, but only occasionally. The poem, as one begins to > translate, may turn out not even to be "about" what one thought it was. One > discovers layers of meaning and artifice, one acquires the cultural > knowledge that the poet demands of us. And eventually not so much an > intellectual construct but a picture of the poem's structure and process > emerge. This is a profoundly moving experience, and to the extent possible > it's what one wants to convey to the reader. > > Some of the poems one falls in love with are exceptionally difficult even > for native speakers. Virtually every lover of poetry in Latin America > reveres Jose Lezama Lima's work, but very few would pretend to follow his > drift through his complex patterning. But read it aloud and one finds all > the richness of the language, and a hallucinatory world of half-glimpsed > understandings. The poem demands of you that you come back to it again and > again. It's a very long commitment. James Irby, without doubt the > profoundest student and translator of Lezama's work (an incredible amount > gets lost in translation nonetheless), has written 25 pages of notes on just > the first four stanzas of one of the poems, Pensamientos en La Habana. And > it changes one's life. > > I had an extraordinary experience with a short poem of Eliseo Diego, a > perfect lyric. I fell in love with it because of its beauty of language and > its strangeness. It wasn't until well after I translated it that I > understood that in a very brief compass Eliseo was giving us the history of > black people in Cuba. The cultural information involved kept thickening. I > did an ok job, probably as good as can be done, but hey, it's not the > original. > > Lezama, referring to this process (I use the word advisedly) of discovery, > posited that "s?lo lo dif?cil es estimulante." Estimulante is a much more > serious word in Spanish than its English cognate. It can be both adjective > and noun, and can mean, for instance, the force that though the green fuse > drives the flower. "The only true stimulant to growth is that which is > difficult," or "only the difficult stimulates growth." Not difficulty for > its own sake, but for the sake of growth, which is a process that occurs > through the process of discovery. > > It goes without saying that not everything that appears difficult is > stimulating. Difficulty can be worn as a mannerism, and some things turn out > to be hollow. The mystery is what it is about a particular poem that makes > us persist in the effort, what it is that makes us trust it, even if we have > no idea what's going on. > > Mark > > > > At 04:40 AM 7/4/2009, you wrote: > >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> > I was really talking about "difficult" poetry, the kind that doesn't >> yield >> > easily to understanding, that makes you search for how to read it. >> >> But why is that difference significant if, in the end, you are relying >> on a feeling that you can't explain? Regardless of the difficulty, you >> are pointing to a subjective, aesthetic opinion and saying it's >> sufficient. I agree. I just wonder why people want to pick and choose >> *when* it's sufficient. >> >> > To put this in perspective, my mother told me that when she was in >> college, >> > circa 1939, the class read a poem by Wallace Stevens to universal >> confusion, >> > and the professor admitted that he didn't get it either and almost >> nobody >> > did. Yesterday's difficult art is often today's staple. It's clearer, >> maybe, >> > in the visual arts or music. Pollock doesn't present particular >> challenges >> > any more, and a great deal of once-unplayable music is now taught to >> > teenagers in conservatories. The culture simply no longer finds the work >> > off-puttingly strange. >> >> Sure, I use various modern artists and free jazz as analogies all the >> time. You won't see me arguing with that. I just made this same kind >> of case on my blog, referencing bop and free jazz and how they were >> seen as non-musical, unplayable, unlistenable, etc. Now much of that >> is part of the mainstream scene. >> >> On the other hand, the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no >> guarantee it will continue to have value. Some things don't get >> absorbed, but just fade away. >> >> It does trouble me that I've been able to find my way inside of other >> kinds of new art far more readily than poetry. >> >> > The effort of learning how to read the poem can be what's most >> compelling. >> >> Maybe this is the most significant difference, because I'm not sure I >> agree. In the end, it's the reading of the poem that matters most to >> me, not how hard I worked to get to the point I could, or how hard I >> worked to create sufficient meaning given writing that is more the >> stuff of poems than actually being a poem. >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090704/9fe7df7d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 4 16:56:48 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?__Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net><4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net>< f160a1210907040732g76df3ae9sffb15979b92fa674@mail.gmail.com><4A4FB 60D.1080407@nut-n-but.net><4A4FBA77.5020006@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A4FC210.80403@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > How about "less analytically-inclined"? I have no idea if this is > true, just suggesting what I think you meant. Yes, that may be it, Mark. I do realize one can be very intellectual (by most definitions) but not very analytical. Thanks, Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Jul 4 15:59:26 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3(c)tente_for_?= Creative- Wri ting Programs In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907041250l41dbdeb8w61f0da51d456e5f2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4b65c2d70907041250l41dbdeb8w61f0da51d456e5f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In Spanish a noun can appear without el or la, in which case it's translated as "a." Un or uno is understood. Happens all the time. I've run this particular instance past several native speakers, because it's such an important quotation. At 03:50 PM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >Poor Mark. But here I am. >I understand your passion for the poet you are >translating, which is what keeps poor souls like >me stuck to the page to connect one word in a >language to a similar word into another >language. But if "Estimulante" is to be used as >a noun, then you need the article. Since in your >quotation there is no article, I can take it for >granted that it is an adjective and within the context a predicate nominal. > >On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction@earthlink.net> wrote: >I have a feeling we're talking past each other >here. I'm not proposing that "the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no > >guarantee it will continue to have value." > >A species of the difficult is poetry written in >a foreign language. I'm a translator. My >Spanish is way too weak for what I undertake, >but translators who are profoundly fluent report >very much the same thing. All romance languages >sound pretty to Germanic ears, but once one gets >past that, in reading a poem in Spanish, even if >one barely grasps its easiest layer of meaning, >one senses the honesty of the effort and that >there's something to be gained from going >further. One falls in love, as with another >human being, on the basis of what would appear >to be insufficient evidence. As it happens, one >gets fooled, but only occasionally. The poem, as >one begins to translate, may turn out not even >to be "about" what one thought it was. One >discovers layers of meaning and artifice, one >acquires the cultural knowledge that the poet >demands of us. And eventually not so much an >intellectual construct but a picture of the >poem's structure and process emerge. This is a >profoundly moving experience, and to the extent >possible it's what one wants to convey to the reader. > >Some of the poems one falls in love with are >exceptionally difficult even for native >speakers. Virtually every lover of poetry in >Latin America reveres Jose Lezama Lima's work, >but very few would pretend to follow his drift >through his complex patterning. But read it >aloud and one finds all the richness of the >language, and a hallucinatory world of >half-glimpsed understandings. The poem demands >of you that you come back to it again and again. >It's a very long commitment. James Irby, without >doubt the profoundest student and translator of >Lezama's work (an incredible amount gets lost in >translation nonetheless), has written 25 pages >of notes on just the first four stanzas of one >of the poems, Pensamientos en La Habana. And it changes one's life. > >I had an extraordinary experience with a short >poem of Eliseo Diego, a perfect lyric. I fell in >love with it because of its beauty of language >and its strangeness. It wasn't until well after >I translated it that I understood that in a very >brief compass Eliseo was giving us the history >of black people in Cuba. The cultural >information involved kept thickening. I did an >ok job, probably as good as can be done, but hey, it's not the original. > >Lezama, referring to this process (I use the >word advisedly) of discovery, posited that "s?lo >lo dif?cil es estimulante." Estimulante is a >much more serious word in Spanish than its >English cognate. It can be both adjective and >noun, and can mean, for instance, the force that >though the green fuse drives the flower. "The >only true stimulant to growth is that which is >difficult," or "only the difficult stimulates >growth." Not difficulty for its own sake, but >for the sake of growth, which is a process that >occurs through the process of discovery. > >It goes without saying that not everything that >appears difficult is stimulating. Difficulty can >be worn as a mannerism, and some things turn out >to be hollow. The mystery is what it is about a >particular poem that makes us persist in the >effort, what it is that makes us trust it, even >if we have no idea what's going on. > >Mark > > > >At 04:40 AM 7/4/2009, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Mark >Weiss<junction@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I was really talking about "difficult" poetry, the kind that doesn't yield > > easily to understanding, that makes you search for how to read it. > >But why is that difference significant if, in the end, you are relying >on a feeling that you can't explain? Regardless of the difficulty, you >are pointing to a subjective, aesthetic opinion and saying it's >sufficient. I agree. I just wonder why people want to pick and choose >*when* it's sufficient. > > > To put this in perspective, my mother told me that when she was in college, > > circa 1939, the class read a poem by Wallace > Stevens to universal confusion, > > and the professor admitted that he didn't get it either and almost nobody > > did. Yesterday's difficult art is often > today's staple. It's clearer, maybe, > > in the visual arts or music. Pollock doesn't present particular challenges > > any more, and a great deal of once-unplayable music is now taught to > > teenagers in conservatories. The culture simply no longer finds the work > > off-puttingly strange. > >Sure, I use various modern artists and free jazz as analogies all the >time. You won't see me arguing with that. I just made this same kind >of case on my blog, referencing bop and free jazz and how they were >seen as non-musical, unplayable, unlistenable, etc. Now much of that >is part of the mainstream scene. > >On the other hand, the mere fact that something isn't accepted is no >guarantee it will continue to have value. Some things don't get >absorbed, but just fade away. > >It does trouble me that I've been able to find my way inside of other >kinds of new art far more readily than poetry. > > > The effort of learning how to read the poem can be what's most compelling. > >Maybe this is the most significant difference, because I'm not sure I >agree. In the end, it's the reading of the poem that matters most to >me, not how hard I worked to get to the point I could, or how hard I >worked to create sufficient meaning given writing that is more the >stuff of poems than actually being a poem. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Jul 5 07:30:55 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver Message-ID: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> This is in today's NY Times list of the most e-mailed articles: http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/travel/05oliver.html?em The Land and Words of Mary Oliver, the Bard of Provincetown BY half-past 5 on a morning in early May, the sun rising over Blackwater Pond had already brightened the pine woods. I stood in a wide natural path, carpeted with brown-red needles, that rises up the forested dune from the southwest side of the pond. In the high branches of the pines and beeches and honeysuckles, the birds were carrying on their racket ? warblers, goldfinches, woodpeckers, doves and chickadees. But on the sandy ground among the trunks, nothing moved. Perfect stillness. Could this have been where Mary Oliver had seen the deer? -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 08:29:15 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] our seas Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907050529v59f14e89ib6fa396b9306709e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6256445.ece How we are emptying our seas -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/6241019b/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 08:40:52 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> This is exceptional writing: At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled after a night of rain. I dip my cupped hands. I drink a long time. It tastes like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold into my body, waking the bones. I hear them deep inside me, whispering oh what is that beautiful thing that just happened? I just uploaded the Deer by Franz Marc on my blog: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:30 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > This is in today's NY Times list of the most e-mailed articles: > > http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/travel/05oliver.html?em > > > The Land and Words of Mary Oliver, the Bard of Provincetown > > > BY half-past 5 on a morning in early May, the sun rising over Blackwater > Pond had already brightened the pine woods. I stood in a wide natural path, > carpeted with brown-red needles, that rises up the forested dune from the > southwest side of the pond. In the high branches of the pines and beeches > and honeysuckles, the birds were carrying on their racket ? warblers, > goldfinches, woodpeckers, doves and chickadees. But on the sandy ground > among the trunks, nothing moved. Perfect stillness. Could this have been > where Mary Oliver had seen the deer? > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/736bea6d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 5 13:25:10 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > This is exceptional writing: > > At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled > after a night of rain. > I dip my cupped hands. I drink > a long time. It tastes > like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold > into my body, waking the bones. I hear them > deep inside me, whispering > oh what is that beautiful thing > that just happened? Sorry, Anny, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. I think James Wright did this sort of thing wonderfully well at times but that this is a weak imitation of what he did then. Maybe it's because what my bones say is rarely pleasant. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 12:40:48 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907050940w757b735ft53bab2edf387d2c@mail.gmail.com> but you do like Franz Marc, :-) On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> This is exceptional writing: >> >> At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled >> after a night of rain. >> I dip my cupped hands. I drink >> a long time. It tastes >> like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold >> into my body, waking the bones. I hear them >> deep inside me, whispering >> oh what is that beautiful thing >> that just happened? >> > Sorry, Anny, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. > I think James Wright did this sort of thing wonderfully well at times > but that this is a weak imitation of what he did then. Maybe > it's because what my bones say is rarely pleasant. > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/604bd1af/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 5 13:56:36 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907050940w757b735ft53bab2edf387d2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org><4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com><4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but .net> <4b65c2d70907050940w757b735ft53bab2edf387d2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A50E954.5070301@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > but you do like Franz Marc, :-) Very much! Is there a connection of Marc to the poem I missed? --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Jul 5 13:05:51 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A50DD6F.1030201@opus40.org> Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: >> This is exceptional writing: >> >> At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled >> after a night of rain. >> I dip my cupped hands. I drink >> a long time. It tastes >> like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold >> into my body, waking the bones. I hear them >> deep inside me, whispering >> oh what is that beautiful thing >> that just happened? > Sorry, Anny, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. > I think James Wright did this sort of thing wonderfully well at times > but that this is a weak imitation of what he did then. Maybe > it's because what my bones say is rarely pleasant. > --Bob > Arthritis? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 5 14:26:23 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50DD6F.1030201@opus40.org> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com><4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> <4A50DD6F.1030201@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A50F04F.9030108@nut-n-but.net> >> but that this is a weak imitation of what he did then. Maybe >> it's because what my bones say is rarely pleasant. >> --Bob >> > > Arthritis? Yeah. Pretty minor, most of the time. --Bob From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 14:14:03 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> >Sorry, _______, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. >I think _________ did ____________ wonderfully well at times >but that __________ is a weak imitation of what ____did then. I made a template for you, Bob! Just cut and paste the above into any thread in which someone on NewPoetry praises a poem. That way, you'll save yourself a few keystrokes. Feel free to plug in a few neologisms if the spirit moves you--bonus points if you can work in the word *mediocrity*. Best, Jeff "Madlibs" Newberry On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> This is exceptional writing: >> >> At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled >> after a night of rain. >> I dip my cupped hands. I drink >> a long time. It tastes >> like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold >> into my body, waking the bones. I hear them >> deep inside me, whispering >> oh what is that beautiful thing >> that just happened? >> > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/7d3212ff/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 14:18:57 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50E954.5070301@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70907050940w757b735ft53bab2edf387d2c@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E954.5070301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907051118o361b474dn44f9d266b12f5ced@mail.gmail.com> No, but to the article Tad sent over, ach you naughty boy, you did not do the homework... On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> but you do like Franz Marc, :-) >> > Very much! Is there a connection of Marc to the poem I missed? > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/937657b2/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 5 15:56:41 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org><4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com><4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but .net> <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A510579.4020407@nut-n-but.net> Fine, Jeff. Now make one for all the praisers, like David and Anny. And make one for yourself that you can use for your standard put-downs of me. Note that I at least tried to give some idea what I felt was wrong with the Oliver poem (which is probably better than mediocre, just not first-rate, for me). --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Jul 5 15:26:03 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A50FE4B.7070702@opus40.org> Jeff -- very funny. Jeff Newberry wrote: > > >Sorry, _______, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. > >I think _________ did ____________ wonderfully well at times > >but that __________ is a weak imitation of what ____did then. > > I made a template for you, Bob! > > Just cut and paste the above into any thread in which someone on > NewPoetry praises a poem. That way, you'll save yourself a few > keystrokes. Feel free to plug in a few neologisms if the spirit moves > you--bonus points if you can work in the word *mediocrity*. > > Best, > > Jeff "Madlibs" Newberry > > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > This is exceptional writing: > > At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled > after a night of rain. > I dip my cupped hands. I drink > a long time. It tastes > like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold > into my body, waking the bones. I hear them > deep inside me, whispering > oh what is that beautiful thing > that just happened? > > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; > and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular > people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate > and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 16:01:37 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4A50FE4B.7070702@opus40.org> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com> <4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com> <4A50FE4B.7070702@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907051301m5260299o184aabc48aeb0569@mail.gmail.com> I am wondering, Bob, are you an only child, or the youngest maybe? We always end up talking to you and about you, it doesn't matter where we start from. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:26 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Jeff -- very funny. > > Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> >> >Sorry, _______, but somebody's gotta be Mr. Negative around here. >> >I think _________ did ____________ wonderfully well at times >> >but that __________ is a weak imitation of what ____did then. >> I made a template for you, Bob! >> >> Just cut and paste the above into any thread in which someone on NewPoetry >> praises a poem. That way, you'll save yourself a few keystrokes. Feel free >> to plug in a few neologisms if the spirit moves you--bonus points if you can >> work in the word *mediocrity*. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff "Madlibs" Newberry >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Bob Grumman > bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net>> wrote: >> >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> This is exceptional writing: >> >> At Blackwater Pond the tossed waters have settled >> after a night of rain. >> I dip my cupped hands. I drink >> a long time. It tastes >> like stone, leaves, fire. It falls cold >> into my body, waking the bones. I hear them >> deep inside me, whispering >> oh what is that beautiful thing >> that just happened? >> >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/50da4b10/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 5 17:20:50 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] emailing Mary Oliver In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907051301m5260299o184aabc48aeb0569@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A508EEF.8040803@opus40.org><4b65c2d70907050540l47f7e669y4ca8734f31101194@mail.gmail.com><4A50E1F6.4060307@nut-n-but .net><731bb17a0907051114y706c25d7i30b6dc630fa69a23@mail.gmail.com><4A50FE4B.7070702@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70907051301m5260299o184aabc48aeb0569@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A511932.6060907@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am wondering, Bob, are you an only child, or the youngest maybe? We > always end up talking to you and about you, it doesn't matter where we > start from. If that's true (not sure it is), wouldn't it just be because I'm the oddball? Also, I hard don't never shut up. As for my sibs, I have two older brothers, and a sister a year younger than I. I'm definitely the oddball of the family, and even of the extended family (cousins, etc.). From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 5 21:40:01 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Bass interview Message-ID: <8CBCBF1D049633F-14A0-33AA@WEBMAIL-DZ40.sysops.aol.com> http://www.examiner.com/x-2696-Sacramento-Arts--Entertainment-Examiner~y2009m7d4-How-poetry-can-save-your-life-an-Interview-with-lesbian-poet-author-Ellen-Bass-Part-Two How poetry can save your life: an Interview with lesbian poet, author Ellen Bass (Part Two) July 4, 6:12 PM Before I could even ask Bass my first question, I told her that I had already fallen in love with her work, based simply on the three poems she included in her written interview.? I told her of my estrangement from my two younger sisters, how I thought if I emailed them her poems, especially "If You Knew," then maybe--maybe--they would call me, reach out to make a connection again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/f586944a/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 5 21:50:46 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why can't I post from home? Only the office. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CBCBF350C3FFB7-14A0-33FD@WEBMAIL-DZ40.sysops.aol.com> Hi Skip, back from a few days away from email. I'll have to look into this situation...If at home you're getting email forwarded from the subbed/edu account, but at home you're posting directly from the a different/unsubbed account that might explain it. Can you forward an email that didn't make?it to the list? Jim F? -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 6:55 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Why can't I post from home? Only the office. So I get to listen to everyone over a weekend (which is great) but can never respond (which might be good for others on the list), but it leaves me chomping at a virtual bit. Part of the divine plan? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/70c98c84/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 5 22:21:29 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Hicok In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBCBF79AC8AF8E-14A0-34CF@WEBMAIL-DZ40.sysops.aol.com> Nice imagery?at the close of this poem (a?talk poem, I note)... But the 'calliope of seals' and all those chins?(Adams' and the seals' and the prow of the boat as another chin, all lifted and lifting somehow; anyway that's how I saw it): ??????? Brought him to hear the calliope of seals, to smell cypress and salt where the world's cracked open, is not ashamed to reveal its faults. And raised there the book with his face on the cover? powdered hair and pink cheeks, a chin hiding behind other chins? to be kissed by an ocean he never saw from this, the prow of the ship he dreamed. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 9:47 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Hicok Founder's day ? I introduced John Adams to the Pacific and likewise I am sure. The book by McCullough, not the book by Chinard. Carried it in December from Michigan where it's cold to California where it's not Michigan. America did not include Point Lobos when he was alive. America included horses and bloodletting and Jefferson, who died with Adams on the same Fourth of July. The Pacific is wide and deep and Adams was wide and deep, was fat and obstinate and wrote tender letters to his wife. Not the letters but the words were tender, not the words but their meaning, which was always that he missed her, always that he wanted nothing more than home in her arms. So I have made him travel again, as with Holland, as with France, years out of country but never out of hope. Brought him to hear the calliope of seals, to smell cypress and salt where the world's cracked open, is not ashamed to reveal its faults. And raised there the book with his face on the cover? powdered hair and pink cheeks, a chin hiding behind other chins? to be kissed by an ocean he never saw from this, the prow of the ship he dreamed. ? -- Bob Hicok. The Southern Review, 2004. ? ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/0b7c7e95/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 5 23:24:36 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_An_Era_of_D=C3=A9tente_for____Creative-Wri_tin?= =?utf-8?Q?g_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBCC006C5C1114-14A0-365B@WEBMAIL-DZ40.sysops.aol.com> One of Hugo's teachers was Theodore Roethke. From his essay about teaching creative writing?I can imagine TR wouldn't have been shy about telling people how not to write. This the full Hugo quote... "A good creative-writing teacher can save a good writer a lot of time. Writing is tough, and many wrong paths can be taken. If we are doing our job, creative-writing teachers are performing a necessary negative function. And if we are good teachers, we should be teaching the writer ways of doing that for himself all his writing life. We teach how not to write and we teach writers to teach themselves how not to write. When we teach how to write, the student had best be on guard." I think it's sound advice for a creative writing teacher, in paraphrase: Be the best and most honest?critic ('We teach how not to write and...') you can be; but don't try to shape the writing into your image/ideal of what a writing should be doing ('When we teach how to write, the student had best be on guard.') Finnegan (alasMFAless) -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?tente for Creative-Wri ting Programs I'm quoting Hugo as cited a few steps back. To the effect that no one can teach someone how to write, but you can teach people how not to write. As I understood him, he was suggesting limits on the down side. Violation of writerly decorum has been one of the great forces in literature. It wo uld be a shame to teach too much politeness.? ? At 09:09 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:? >I guess I'm not sure what you mean by showing people how not to write.? >? >----------? >Make your summer sizzle with >fast and >easy recipes for the grill.? >_______________________________________________? >New-Poetry mailing list? >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/17b437c9/attachment.html From locriansky at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 01:18:57 2009 From: locriansky at yahoo.com (locriansky@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Crea?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tive-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <156194.95572.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Is this a private party or can anyone get in on this non-intellectual thing? Kaz ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: Bob Grumman Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 12:28:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri ting Programs Makes sense to me, Bob. You can color me non-intellectual too. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: Halvard Johnson wrote: > >Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not >>make one anti-Staten Island. >> >>Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother >>Point taken, Hal. ?Non-intellectual? > >--Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090705/e94eaebe/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Jul 6 03:59:39 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Era of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=C3=28c=29tente_for?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Creative-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <156194.95572.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> <156194.95572.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A51AEEB.5050303@opus40.org> What are your credentials? locriansky@yahoo.com wrote: > Is this a private party or can anyone get in on this non-intellectual > thing? > Kaz > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* Bob Grumman > *Cc:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2009 12:28:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri > ting Programs > > Makes sense to me, Bob. You can color me non-intellectual too. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not > make one anti-Staten Island. > > Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother > > Point taken, Hal. Non-intellectual? > > --Bob > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 09:29:22 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser selects Jean Nordhaus Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907060629w23916d71l1495e59d1211c664@mail.gmail.com> Welcome to American Life in Poetry. For information on permissions and usage, or to download a PDF version of the column, visit www.americanlifeinpoetry.org. ****************************** American Life in Poetry: Column 224 BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE, 2004-2006 Was Always Leaving by Jean Nordhaus I was always leaving, I was about to get up and go, I was on my way, not sure where. Somewhere else. Not here. Nothing here was good enough. It would be better there, where I was going. Not sure how or why. The dome I cowered under would be raised, and I would be released into my true life. I would meet there the ones I was destined to meet. They would make an opening for me among the flutes and boulders, and I would be taken up. That this might be a form of death did not occur to me. I only know that something held me back, a doubt, a debt, a face I could not leave behind. When the door fell open, I did not go through. American Life in Poetry is made possible by The Poetry Foundation ( www.poetryfoundation.org), publisher of Poetry magazine. It is also supported by the Department of English at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. Poem copyright (c)2008 by Jean Nordhaus, whose most recent book of poems is "Innocence," Ohio State University Press, 2006. Poem reprinted from "The Gettysburg Review," Vol. 21, no. 4, Winter, 2008, by permission of Jean Nordhaus and the publisher. Introduction copyright (c)2009 by The Poetry Foundation. The introduction's author, Ted Kooser, served as United States Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress from 2004-2006. We do not accept unsolicited manuscripts. ****************************** American Life in Poetry provides newspapers and online publications with a free weekly column featuring contemporary American poems. The sole mission of this project is to promote poetry: American Life in Poetry seeks to create a vigorous presence for poetry in our culture. There are no costs for reprinting the columns; we do require that you register your publication here and that the text of the column be reproduced without alteration. To discontinue your subscription to American Life in Poetry, please reply to this e-mail with the subject line 'unsubscribe.' -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090706/c13aa713/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Jul 6 15:10:55 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing during a time of the MFA mandarian/period style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <77513515601E40B9B64EDA725A791D72@win.louisiana.edu> The more I think about it, the more I realize it's a good thing I can't post from home. I'd spend too much time and waste that of too many others if I would have gotten involved this weekend on the MFA question. You might guess from my subject line that I agree with Mark, and I do, but I also agree with Chris. Not to take anything from Mark, but I've been around too long not to realize that remarkable achievements have been made in my own area without me having been quite aware. At the same time, I was "raised in poetry" when poets did not think about getting teaching jobs, and learned to write well outside (or later, inside and despite) universities. In fact, I was on the lamb from the F.B.I. when I began in 1969. But the CRUST of thought in the university-bred and/or -orientated writer is debilitating to watch (imagine what it would be like to be in the thrall of such thinking). Consider, for instance, one tiny custom which is so expected that it is remarked upon if omitted: the signing of books. Everyone signs books and everyone wants to have signed books. And there may be a number of good reasons, but most people (poets of all people!) have not usefully considered the action and what it might do. It's funny that when an author writes in one of my books I am less likely to (and I love to write in books). This is but a symptom. When an author signs a book it's value has shifted at least somewhat from text to artifact. All of a sudden its financial and/or sentimental value has the possibility of trumping the poetic value of those words speaking to us axs readers from the page, from the mind on the page, etc. I'm not saying anything about my writing in books I read, but about a change in value. One needn't look at it like that of course. (Jesse Glass calls the signature a little kiss at the front of the book, and that's nice.) But my real point is even more than a change in value for a specific text, but for an activity (poetry) where the participants of that activity (poets of all people!) do not consider their activities on the peripheries and in the presentation of that activity, probably holding the (again under-considered if considered at all) belief that such considerations (and we could talk about prizes, readings, etc., etc.) will not effect the central activity. I doubt if that's the case. Maybe at such a time (MFA uber-alles) it behooves us to continually consider all elements of our activity and leave the presumptions to empty-headed t.v. commentators and think-tank ideologues. And one of the reasons I love New Poetry is because we do that sort of thing daily. Skip Fox "Putting your poetry up for a prize is like entering your mother in a wet t-shirt contest." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090706/216c3b2c/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 15:22:25 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing during a time of the MFA mandarian/period style In-Reply-To: <77513515601E40B9B64EDA725A791D72@win.louisiana.edu> References: <77513515601E40B9B64EDA725A791D72@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: lam? or you were pursuing some sort of sheepskin-borne qualification in order to escape the feds? you were riding your woolly young pet around to evade the authorities? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Jul 6 15:33:32 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing during a time of the MFA mandarian/period style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4A3D2C08B83E4BD5A804174BA4992FC5@win.louisiana.edu> "lam," sorry. (Just wrote a novel with Dolly as a main character in it so . . .) . From munrop at sprynet.com Mon Jul 6 23:51:19 2009 From: munrop at sprynet.com (Peter Munro) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> Greetings, I've been lurking for a couple of years maybe. I tune in and out of your conversation as time permits. Thank you. I got engaged with the whole "MFA-bad / MFA-good / MFA-whatever" debate, following it more for the sake of the entertaining energy. Have things in here cooled off sufficiently for a newbie to ask what may be a foolish question? I hope so because here is my question: What is Wilshberian? I kept seeing such statements as this cropping up: > But, I admit to having one problem as a poet with > Wilshberians. I simply can't understand poets who > are satisfied to do . . . I can't remember who said that actual string. It was a quote within a post by my buddy, Guru Lott, The Occasionally Cranky. Could Wilshber possibly by Charles Algernon Wilshber who penned these immoral lines: "For the Thracian ships and the foreign faces, For the tongueless vigil, and all the pain Born of heroic spankings." I'm waiting to be edified. Thank you in advance. Peter Munro From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 02:32:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sketch to stage Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907062332k4919ced9l726241051019b692@mail.gmail.com> A slide show on the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/07/06/arts/design/20090706_MODERN_SLIDESHOW_index.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090707/f2a0c7a8/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Tue Jul 7 03:17:35 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jeff Newberry pantoum Message-ID: Maybe this was mentioned here and I missed it, but a nice piece of work, Jeff: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/newberrypantoum.html c From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 03:51:51 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jeff Newberry pantoum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907070051r68dcb98dkbe3d611e20cb528c@mail.gmail.com> Definitely. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Maybe this was mentioned here and I missed it, but a nice piece of work, > Jeff: > > http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/newberrypantoum.html > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090707/fe490daf/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jul 7 07:13:01 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> Message-ID: <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> > What is Wilshberian? I kept seeing such statements as this cropping up: Hi, Peter. "Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers whose interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of the contemporary continuum that runs from the formal verse of Richard WILbur through what I call Iowa Plaintext poetry, the main kind of establishment poetry, to the poetry of John aSHBERY. I coined it out of frustration with the editor of one of the "best" American poems of some year anthology who claimed to have covered the continuum of contemporary American poetry of that year by reading 37 (I think) magazines, and congratulating himself for appreciating both the poetry of Wilbur and that of Ashbery. It was obvious he knew nothing about visual, sound, language, performance, cyber, mathematical and all the other innovative poems being published elsewhere than in the university and mainstream commercial magazines. I admire the poetry of Wilbur; I don't think much of Ashbury's though I've liked passages out of some of his poems, and have written a hundred or more poems that would fit in somewhere in Wilshberia with little trouble. But I am also a fierce advocate of non-Wilshberian poetry, particularly of visual poetry, so am forever accusing people I think are unfair to it of narrowness--not for liking it, but for considering it the only important kind of contemporary poetry. --Bob From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 07:02:59 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jeff Newberry pantoum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0907070402s341f4098q200ad49d832cffa7@mail.gmail.com> Thanks very much, Chris. I appreciate the props. Best, Jeff On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Maybe this was mentioned here and I missed it, but a nice piece of work, > Jeff: > > http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/newberrypantoum.html > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090707/3a80c898/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Jul 7 09:14:43 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jeff Newberry pantoum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A534A43.8050508@opus40.org> Indeed. Chris Lott wrote: > Maybe this was mentioned here and I missed it, but a nice piece of work, Jeff: > > http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/newberrypantoum.html > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Jul 7 10:46:33 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> An excellent explanation, Bob. Henceforrrrrrthly, you can cut and paste it in when folks seem to misunderstand your stance[s]. I'd like to thank lurker [2 years--is that a record?!] Peter Munro for Charles Algernon Wilshber's immoral lines, especially: ". . . all the pain/ Born of heroic spankings." Best, Judy 2009/7/7 Bob Grumman > > What is Wilshberian? I kept seeing such statements as this cropping up: >> > Hi, Peter. "Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers > whose interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of > the contemporary continuum that runs from the formal verse of Richard WILbur > through what I call Iowa Plaintext poetry, the main kind of establishment > poetry, to the poetry of John aSHBERY. I coined it out of frustration with > the editor of one of the "best" American poems of some year anthology who > claimed to have covered the continuum of contemporary American poetry of > that year by reading 37 (I think) magazines, and congratulating himself for > appreciating both the poetry of Wilbur and that of Ashbery. It was obvious > he knew nothing about visual, sound, language, performance, cyber, > mathematical and all the other innovative poems being published elsewhere > than in the university and mainstream commercial magazines. I admire the > poetry of Wilbur; I don't think much of Ashbury's though I've liked passages > out of some of his poems, and have written a hundred or more poems that > would fit in somewhere in Wilshberia with little trouble. But I am also a > fierce advocate of non-Wilshberian poetry, particularly of visual poetry, so > am forever accusing people I think are unfair to it of narrowness--not for > liking it, but for considering it the only important kind of contemporary > poetry. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090707/397add8a/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jul 7 11:07:49 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net><4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2523AE50A2A04E72BDA5DD484597E833@RobinLaptopPC> "For the Thracian ships and the foreign faces, For the tongueless vigil, and all the pain Born of heroic spankings." << I'd like to thank lurker [2 years--is that a record?!] Peter Munro for Charles Algernon Wilshber's immoral lines, especially: ". . . all the pain/ Born of heroic spankings." Best, Judy >> The Thrashing ships, rowed through love's cross-currents, were hymned by some mute Virgil. R. From AlMaginnes at aol.com Tue Jul 7 17:14:51 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] promotional toot Message-ID: I have a poem in the fall issue of Southern Cultures. The issue is devoted to southern music. The issue will ship on August 20, but anyone wishing to pre-order a copy can hit this link: _http://www.southerncultures.org/content/subscribenow/_ (http://www.southerncultures.org/content/subscribenow/) For the two or three of you who have read my poems, I should say that the poem they are using is a reprint from my collection GHOST ALPHABET. Al **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090707/a5e443a5/attachment.html From munrop at sprynet.com Wed Jul 8 02:14:55 2009 From: munrop at sprynet.com (Peter Munro) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A54395F.409@sprynet.com> Greetings, Responding to my question, Bob kindly wrote: >> Hi, Peter. "Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and >> readers whose interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which >> is that part of the contemporary continuum that runs from the . . . Thanks Bob. I like the explanation and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your position. Forgive me if I am finally disappointed. I had hoped to explore the poems of this Wilshber person. Ah well. Thanks to Judy and Robin (and Bob) for welcoming noises. No, I don't think two years is a record for lurking, not even close. I'll probably fade back into lurkage. I just thought it best to let you all know that I was present and listening in. Peter From oedipa at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 03:52:22 2009 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I hate to admit it, but it does explain away the interests of about 85% of the grad students in the program I just finished with.... However, there still remains the other 15%. And who's to say the previous lot (not Lott) are folks to write off? What if they stumbled upon all those other poets one rainy day and decided to stop judging it all? Like we do with them? Then again, I entered my program at Umass in love with Roethke, Bishop, Dickinson and a few contemporaries like Ryan and Don Paterson. Yes, my list was already weird and got weirder once I went through the MFA thing. There's no answer I think. That's good right? Oh and hey Peter! k On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> What is Wilshberian? ?I kept seeing such statements as this cropping up: > > Hi, Peter. ?"Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers whose > interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of the > contemporary continuum that runs from the formal verse of Richard WILbur > through what I call Iowa Plaintext poetry, the main kind of establishment > poetry, to the poetry of John aSHBERY. ?I coined it out of frustration with > the editor of one of the "best" American poems of some year anthology who > claimed to have covered the continuum of contemporary American poetry of > that year by reading 37 (I think) magazines, and congratulating himself for > appreciating both the poetry of Wilbur and that of Ashbery. ?It was obvious > he knew nothing about visual, sound, language, performance, cyber, > mathematical and all the other innovative poems being published elsewhere > than in the university and mainstream commercial magazines. ?I admire the > poetry of Wilbur; I don't think much of Ashbury's though I've liked passages > out of some of his poems, and have written a hundred or more poems that > would fit in somewhere in Wilshberia with little trouble. ?But I am also a > fierce advocate of non-Wilshberian poetry, particularly of visual poetry, so > am forever accusing people I think are unfair to it of narrowness--not for > liking it, but for considering it the only important kind of contemporary > poetry. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Jul 8 03:53:12 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: <4A54395F.409@sprynet.com> References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0907070746i55b21f46nfbf5d8a7db4ec9bc@mail.gmail.com> <4A54395F.409@sprynet.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0907080053l3cb200b3rf7841df6cb2e419c@mail.gmail.com> Well, Peter, if you were a listmember of POETRYETC you could submit today [Wednesdays, always] a "snap[shot]" poem for us to comment on or ignore. Example: snap: Record For Lurking: Not Even Close [after Peter Munro] Best to let you all know I was present and listening in Thanks for the explanation Thoughtfulness of position Welcoming noises Forgive me, I am finally disappointed Had hoped to explore the poems Of this Wilshber person Ah well I'll probably fade back into lurkage Best, Judy 2009/7/8 Peter Munro > Greetings, > > Responding to my question, Bob kindly wrote: > >> Hi, Peter. "Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers >>> whose interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of >>> the contemporary continuum that runs from the . . . >>> >> Thanks Bob. I like the explanation and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of > your position. Forgive me if I am finally disappointed. I had hoped to > explore the poems of this Wilshber person. Ah well. > > Thanks to Judy and Robin (and Bob) for welcoming noises. No, I don't think > two years is a record for lurking, not even close. I'll probably fade back > into lurkage. I just thought it best to let you all know that I was present > and listening in. > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/689ddd38/attachment.html From oedipa at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 03:53:18 2009 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Oh, and I've been lurking for a good five years or so...with the occasional once a year posting. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:52 AM, karen wrote: > I hate to admit it, but it does explain away the interests of about > 85% of the grad students in the program I just finished with.... > However, there still remains the other 15%. ?And who's to say the > previous lot (not Lott) are folks to write off? ?What if they stumbled > upon all those other poets one rainy day and decided to stop judging > it all? ?Like we do with them? > > Then again, I entered my program at Umass in love with Roethke, > Bishop, Dickinson and a few contemporaries like Ryan and Don Paterson. > ?Yes, my list was already weird and got weirder once I went through > the MFA thing. > > There's no answer I think. ?That's good right? ?Oh and hey Peter! > > k > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> What is Wilshberian? ?I kept seeing such statements as this cropping up: >> >> Hi, Peter. ?"Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers whose >> interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of the >> contemporary continuum that runs from the formal verse of Richard WILbur >> through what I call Iowa Plaintext poetry, the main kind of establishment >> poetry, to the poetry of John aSHBERY. ?I coined it out of frustration with >> the editor of one of the "best" American poems of some year anthology who >> claimed to have covered the continuum of contemporary American poetry of >> that year by reading 37 (I think) magazines, and congratulating himself for >> appreciating both the poetry of Wilbur and that of Ashbery. ?It was obvious >> he knew nothing about visual, sound, language, performance, cyber, >> mathematical and all the other innovative poems being published elsewhere >> than in the university and mainstream commercial magazines. ?I admire the >> poetry of Wilbur; I don't think much of Ashbury's though I've liked passages >> out of some of his poems, and have written a hundred or more poems that >> would fit in somewhere in Wilshberia with little trouble. ?But I am also a >> fierce advocate of non-Wilshberian poetry, particularly of visual poetry, so >> am forever accusing people I think are unfair to it of narrowness--not for >> liking it, but for considering it the only important kind of contemporary >> poetry. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Jul 8 04:10:28 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker makes a query: Wilshberians? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4E3F0D.4090300@nut-n-but.net> <4A52C637.8010506@sprynet.com> <4A532DBD.1010609@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0907080110h743e450fv6596092a64e739bc@mail.gmail.com> LurkWelcome to you, as well, Karen. I'm a relatively new unlurker on NP and often forget which list I'm on at the moment. In fact, I nearly asked you to post one of your poems here, but don't think we do that on this list. Somebody will prolly tell me if that's true. Other poetry lists I'm on are POETRYETC, WOMPO, AND SHAKSPER. I highly value those lists as well as this one for various wonderful reasons. Just thought I'd mention it as it's rare-ish to hear from female persons on this list and POETRYETC and I don't know why. WOMPO's loaded with females. I appreciate your opinions, your telling a bit about yourself, and your poet preferences. Which poets do you like to read now that you've finished the MFA and gotten weirder? Best, Judy 2009/7/8 karen > Oh, and I've been lurking for a good five years or so...with the > occasional once a year posting. > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:52 AM, karen wrote: > > I hate to admit it, but it does explain away the interests of about > > 85% of the grad students in the program I just finished with.... > > However, there still remains the other 15%. And who's to say the > > previous lot (not Lott) are folks to write off? What if they stumbled > > upon all those other poets one rainy day and decided to stop judging > > it all? Like we do with them? > > > > Then again, I entered my program at Umass in love with Roethke, > > Bishop, Dickinson and a few contemporaries like Ryan and Don Paterson. > > Yes, my list was already weird and got weirder once I went through > > the MFA thing. > > > > There's no answer I think. That's good right? Oh and hey Peter! > > > > k > > > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > >> > >>> What is Wilshberian? I kept seeing such statements as this cropping > up: > >> > >> Hi, Peter. "Wilshberian" is my coinage for poets, critics and readers > whose > >> interest in poetry is confined to "Wilshberia," which is that part of > the > >> contemporary continuum that runs from the formal verse of Richard WILbur > >> through what I call Iowa Plaintext poetry, the main kind of > establishment > >> poetry, to the poetry of John aSHBERY. I coined it out of frustration > with > >> the editor of one of the "best" American poems of some year anthology > who > >> claimed to have covered the continuum of contemporary American poetry of > >> that year by reading 37 (I think) magazines, and congratulating himself > for > >> appreciating both the poetry of Wilbur and that of Ashbery. It was > obvious > >> he knew nothing about visual, sound, language, performance, cyber, > >> mathematical and all the other innovative poems being published > elsewhere > >> than in the university and mainstream commercial magazines. I admire > the > >> poetry of Wilbur; I don't think much of Ashbury's though I've liked > passages > >> out of some of his poems, and have written a hundred or more poems that > >> would fit in somewhere in Wilshberia with little trouble. But I am also > a > >> fierce advocate of non-Wilshberian poetry, particularly of visual > poetry, so > >> am forever accusing people I think are unfair to it of narrowness--not > for > >> liking it, but for considering it the only important kind of > contemporary > >> poetry. > >> > >> --Bob > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/9373a347/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 09:23:50 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our essential humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and sales. I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication world. Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has * nothing* to do with money. Best, Jeff Newberry Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/ed9684ea/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Wed Jul 8 10:18:22 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Without any intent to be a smartass, how does this idea of the place and work of poetry make it different than, say, blogging... which similarly exists in the interstices (except when it doesn't), yet has broad dissemination (or the potential), is independent of the yoke of publisher gatekeeping (except when it isn't), etc? Is there something special about the uselessness of poetry, that it is usually seen in the near single-valence of "art" or something, that distinguishes it? c From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 10:46:04 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> I don't know, Chris, but those are certainly good questions to ask. I suppose that poetry is different from blogging because blogging exists solely in a virtual space. Poetry still has a foothold (however tenuous) in the print world. I'm not sure that this distinction matter, however. Does this all go back to the way that we (maybe "I") think of *literature*? I'm still foolish enough to think that literature is unquantifiable--that there is something that happens beyond measurement. Of course, it's that very quality that makes poetry (and all art, for that matter) to fit into a consumer culture. Having said that, I like the idea of getting paid to write--though, these days, that a rare thing indeed. I like that I can purchase good books of poetry, much in the same way that I like that I can purchase a fine novel. But maybe we're discussing two separate issues here. Best, Jeff Newberry On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Without any intent to be a smartass, how does this idea of the place > and work of poetry make it different than, say, blogging... which > similarly exists in the interstices (except when it doesn't), yet has > broad dissemination (or the potential), is independent of the yoke of > publisher gatekeeping (except when it isn't), etc? > > Is there something special about the uselessness of poetry, that it is > usually seen in the near single-valence of "art" or something, that > distinguishes it? > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/f6b91f0c/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Wed Jul 8 11:14:27 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] e-mail address for Chris Lott In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89CF7731D6A44AFEB16D4601D09B04AB@win.louisiana.edu> Trying to get Chris's e-mail or snail mail address. Please send to skip@louisiana.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/71cde804/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 11:27:15 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Language shapes thinking Message-ID: <8CBCDF7B518E10F-17B8-4A89@WEBMAIL-MC02.sysops.aol.com> http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html Follow me to Pormpuraaw, a small Aboriginal community on the western edge of Cape York, in northern Australia. I came here because of the way the locals, the Kuuk Thaayorre, talk about space. Instead of words like "right," "left," "forward," and "back," which, as commonly used in English, define space relative to an observer, the Kuuk Thaayorre, like many other Aboriginal groups, use cardinal-direction terms ? north, south, east, and west ? to define space.1 This is done at all scales, which means you have to say things like "There's an ant on your southeast leg" or "Move the cup to the north northwest a little bit." One obvious consequence of speaking such a language is that you have to stay oriented at all times, or else you cannot speak properly. The normal greeting in Kuuk Thaayorre is "Where are you going?" and the answer should be something like " Southsoutheast, in the middle distance." If you don't know which way you're facing, you can't even get past "Hello." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/01915457/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:39:28 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907080839p1487c755m85d004ccf5da3120@mail.gmail.com> For one, Susan Schultz published her blog in a book titled Dementia, or My Mother's Dementia. On the other hand, the much I would like to agree with Jeremy Schmall's quotation [just to say: you see, I am on the right side], the many more examples I have of people who are exploiting poetry for their own businesses and careers. But idealistically Schmall is 90% right. The visual arts that have lately undergone a very strong shift: or you die or you succeed in terms of monetary support, have drastically fallen into the pit, the argument is again 90% right. Not to talk of the cinema, on the other hand we all know that cult movies are continuously produced, therefore any statement has to be taken within broad margins. Without generalizing by sectors why don't we consider the Person, the Artist. I know excellent and successful Poets who could fit the anti-globalism tag, and have been working hard intellectually to live in that narrow gap. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I don't know, Chris, but those are certainly good questions to ask. > > I suppose that poetry is different from blogging because blogging exists > solely in a virtual space. Poetry still has a foothold (however tenuous) in > the print world. I'm not sure that this distinction matter, however. > > Does this all go back to the way that we (maybe "I") think of *literature*? > I'm still foolish enough to think that literature is unquantifiable--that > there is something that happens beyond measurement. Of course, it's that > very quality that makes poetry (and all art, for that matter) to fit into a > consumer culture. Having said that, I like the idea of getting paid to > write--though, these days, that a rare thing indeed. I like that I can > purchase good books of poetry, much in the same way that I like that I can > purchase a fine novel. > > But maybe we're discussing two separate issues here. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > >> Without any intent to be a smartass, how does this idea of the place >> and work of poetry make it different than, say, blogging... which >> similarly exists in the interstices (except when it doesn't), yet has >> broad dissemination (or the potential), is independent of the yoke of >> publisher gatekeeping (except when it isn't), etc? >> >> Is there something special about the uselessness of poetry, that it is >> usually seen in the near single-valence of "art" or something, that >> distinguishes it? >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/6bc3f118/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 11:39:22 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bold, Cautious, True. Message-ID: <8CBCDF9655608B8-17B8-4B64@WEBMAIL-MC02.sysops.aol.com> http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=31916 MEMPHIS, TN.- The Dixon Gallery and Gardens invites you to explore newest exhibition, Bold, Cautious, True: Walt Whitman and American Art of the Civil War Era, which opens July 5 and continues through October 4, 2009. This landmark exhibition studies the poetics of American painting, sculpture, and graphic arts in the turbulent 1860?s. Featuring some of the most important American artists of the mid-nineteenth century, the exhibition reveals major shifts in ideas and attitudes that Walt Whitman?s poetry and prose anticipated and that the Civil War hurried into effect. And though the ?real? Civil War may not have made it in books, it will be fully realized at the Dixon through the arts of Bold, Cautious, True. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/892a040d/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:44:35 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907080844t6d8e2511s720a2392512bb059@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I don't know, Chris, but those are certainly good questions to ask. > > I suppose that poetry is different from blogging because blogging exists > solely in a virtual space. Poetry still has a foothold (however tenuous) in > the print world. I'm not sure that this distinction matter, however. > > Does this all go back to the way that we (maybe "I") think of *literature*? > I'm still foolish enough to think that literature is unquantifiable--that > there is something that happens beyond measurement. Of course, it's that > very quality that makes poetry (and all art, for that matter) to fit into a > consumer culture. Having said that, I like the idea of getting paid to > write--though, these days, that a rare thing indeed. I like that I can > purchase good books of poetry, much in the same way that I like that I can > purchase a fine novel. Vis a vis "literature"/poetry (or poem) or "literature"/fiction (or a short story or novel): makes me think of maize and elote, maize being the crop,elotethe "fruit" or ear of corn. Literature is just a collective noun and not a sacrosanct piece of art, such as a poem. In fiction, some novels are written as an object outside the considerations of marketplace, while others are written with movie or tv scripts in mind, complete with a surfeit of "cinematic" maneuvers and spaces for commercial breaks. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/bad9e7d0/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:47:01 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <648208b60907080844t6d8e2511s720a2392512bb059@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60907080844t6d8e2511s720a2392512bb059@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907080847g761e5e6aj20f7141d24732d72@mail.gmail.com> Some poems are written for express purposes too: greeting card verse, for example. And there's a trend in the young adult publishing world of novels in verse; unfortunately, none come to mind. Best, Jeff Newberry On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:44 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> I don't know, Chris, but those are certainly good questions to ask. >> >> I suppose that poetry is different from blogging because blogging exists >> solely in a virtual space. Poetry still has a foothold (however tenuous) in >> the print world. I'm not sure that this distinction matter, however. >> >> Does this all go back to the way that we (maybe "I") think of *literature >> *? I'm still foolish enough to think that literature is >> unquantifiable--that there is something that happens beyond measurement. Of >> course, it's that very quality that makes poetry (and all art, for that >> matter) to fit into a consumer culture. Having said that, I like the idea >> of getting paid to write--though, these days, that a rare thing indeed. I >> like that I can purchase good books of poetry, much in the same way that I >> like that I can purchase a fine novel. > > > Vis a vis "literature"/poetry (or poem) or "literature"/fiction (or a > short story or novel): makes me think of maize and elote, maize being the > crop, elote the "fruit" or ear of corn. Literature is just a collective > noun and not a sacrosanct piece of art, such as a poem. In fiction, some > novels are written as an object outside the considerations of marketplace, > while others are written with movie or tv scripts in mind, complete with a > surfeit of "cinematic" maneuvers and spaces for commercial breaks. > > -- Jim > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/b750ea37/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:48:08 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907080839p1487c755m85d004ccf5da3120@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a0907080746m6b6f163apf9a64c3f9f248fd2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70907080839p1487c755m85d004ccf5da3120@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907080848ld62b27cqb11563d7c0c5c223@mail.gmail.com> Good points, Anny. I'm still trying to figure out if "globalism" is such a bad thing. I suppose it depends on how you define that term--globalism. Best, Jeff Newberry On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > For one, Susan Schultz published her blog in a book titled Dementia, or My > Mother's Dementia. > > On the other hand, the much I would like to agree with Jeremy Schmall's > quotation [just to say: you see, I am on the right side], the many more > examples I have of people who are exploiting poetry for their own businesses > and careers. But idealistically Schmall is 90% right. The visual arts that > have lately undergone a very strong shift: or you die or you succeed in > terms of monetary support, have drastically fallen into the pit, the > argument is again 90% right. Not to talk of the cinema, on the other hand we > all know that cult movies are continuously produced, therefore any statement > has to be taken within broad margins. > > Without generalizing by sectors why don't we consider the Person, the > Artist. I know excellent and successful Poets who could fit the > anti-globalism tag, and have been working hard intellectually to live in > that narrow gap. > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> I don't know, Chris, but those are certainly good questions to ask. >> >> I suppose that poetry is different from blogging because blogging exists >> solely in a virtual space. Poetry still has a foothold (however tenuous) in >> the print world. I'm not sure that this distinction matter, however. >> >> Does this all go back to the way that we (maybe "I") think of *literature >> *? I'm still foolish enough to think that literature is >> unquantifiable--that there is something that happens beyond measurement. Of >> course, it's that very quality that makes poetry (and all art, for that >> matter) to fit into a consumer culture. Having said that, I like the idea >> of getting paid to write--though, these days, that a rare thing indeed. I >> like that I can purchase good books of poetry, much in the same way that I >> like that I can purchase a fine novel. >> >> But maybe we're discussing two separate issues here. >> >> Best, >> Jeff Newberry >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Chris Lott wrote: >> >>> Without any intent to be a smartass, how does this idea of the place >>> and work of poetry make it different than, say, blogging... which >>> similarly exists in the interstices (except when it doesn't), yet has >>> broad dissemination (or the potential), is independent of the yoke of >>> publisher gatekeeping (except when it isn't), etc? >>> >>> Is there something special about the uselessness of poetry, that it is >>> usually seen in the near single-valence of "art" or something, that >>> distinguishes it? >>> >>> c >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/f1eabf2a/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Wed Jul 8 11:54:41 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Language shapes thinking In-Reply-To: <8CBCDF7B518E10F-17B8-4A89@WEBMAIL-MC02.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBCDF7B518E10F-17B8-4A89@WEBMAIL-MC02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Now place those Kuuk indoors at night in an unfamiliar location and try it out. With no reference to sun or stars or the familiar, are they struck dumb? Do they suddenly explode into conversation if given a compass? Mark At 11:27 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/boroditsky09/boroditsky09_index.html > >Follow me to Pormpuraaw, a small Aboriginal >community on the western edge of Cape York, in >northern Australia. I came here because of the >way the locals, the Kuuk Thaayorre, talk about >space. Instead of words like "right," "left," >"forward," and "back," which, as commonly used >in English, define space relative to an >observer, the Kuuk Thaayorre, like many other >Aboriginal groups, use cardinal-direction terms >? north, south, east,, and west ? to define >space.1 This is done at all scaales, which means >you have to say things like "There's an ant on >your southeast leg" or "Move the cup to the >north northwest a little bit." One obvious >consequence of speaking such a language is that >you have to stay oriented at all times, or else >you cannot speak properly. The normal greeting >in Kuuk Thaayorre is "Where are you going?" and >the answer should be something like " >Southsoutheast, in the middle distance." If you >don't know which way you're facing, you can't even get past "Hello." > >---------- >Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. >Moviefone >brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 8 12:50:02 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F9696911E4A4336B2C17DECBC8267BA@SN037832120162> Unfortunately Jeff poetry is quite as susceptible to commodification as most other things. Performance poetry is certainly going that way here in the UK, successful mainstream poets certainly do quite well, despite their protestations to the contrary, and the result again is an increasingly homogenised product, while lower down the scale there is poetry as an adjunct to an academic career, and, less intellectually compromised, the invisible bards of the greeting cards. best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our essential humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and sales. I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication world. Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has nothing to do with money. Best, Jeff Newberry Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/bb711590/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 13:50:37 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <2F9696911E4A4336B2C17DECBC8267BA@SN037832120162> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <2F9696911E4A4336B2C17DECBC8267BA@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <731bb17a0907081050lc0b6179jed134f89b0911574@mail.gmail.com> David, I'm certain that it is. Your examples are perfect. And they raise interesting questions: is the greeting card versifier more intellectuall honest than the slam poet? I suppose my mind is wandering about a central question: what are the effects of commodification and production on poetry (or any other art)? Does capitalism itself question the notion of art? Indeed, all things being equal, what separates the guy drawing funny portraits on River Street in Savannah from the artist drawing a figure study in a classroom? That's probably a poor example. But I think that the example addresses something important. What happens to art if it is mass produced? Does mass production affect poetry the same way that it affects the visual arts? I mean--a new edition of Keats is one thing, but a reproduction of a Picasso masterpiece is something else--or is it? Good Lord, are huge questions. I suppose I should go grade essays in order to turn off my mind. -- Jeff "Deep Thoughts" Newberry *Do? That's the beauty of it. It doesn't do anything*. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, David Bircumshaw < david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > Unfortunately Jeff poetry is quite as susceptible to commodification as > most other things. Performance poetry is certainly going that way here in > the UK, successful mainstream poets certainly do quite well, despite their > protestations to the contrary, and the result again is an increasingly > homogenised product, while lower down the scale there is poetry as an > adjunct to an academic career, and, less intellectually compromised, the > invisible bards of the greeting cards. > > best > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jeff Newberry > *To:* NewPoetry > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:23 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > > Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly > unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and > capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the > most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually > expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding > horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation > of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really > think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our essential humanity. > After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very > existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. > Engaged and imaginative individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit > poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. > > > ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant > > This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not > sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, > however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because > globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and > sales. > > I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about > the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of > capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one > can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, > right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA > programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) > somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. > > Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write > outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish > reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same > time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication > world. > > Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). > I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production > and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber > music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a > master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make > her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. > > As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national > reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. > And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, > something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has > *nothing* to do with money. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/a3215637/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 14:26:50 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] dermatologist near 11439 Message-ID: <8CBCE10CB46C92C-1148-BAA@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BlueCross BlueShield card 0707.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 41996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/6703f333/BlueCrossBlueShieldcard0707.pdf From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 14:31:25 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] dermatologist near 11439 In-Reply-To: <8CBCE10CB46C92C-1148-BAA@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBCE10CB46C92C-1148-BAA@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBCE116F1DEB4C-1148-BED@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com> Sorry list, don't know how I did that...please delete. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/42e14afc/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 8 15:26:05 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com><731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com><2F9696911E4A4336B2C17DECBC8267BA@SN037832120162> <731bb17a0907081050lc0b6179jed134f89b0911574@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82A00739F3AA4AF1AFD466B899B23392@SN037832120162> I think too much about these matters, Jeff, to the point of pain, not because it's an abstract issue to me, but because it impinges on my actual life. Grading sounds a good refuge, I've taken to making my own books recently, it makes poetry a matter of doing something with one's hands, but the potential of capital to commodify is sufficient to annihilate poetry as an act of resistance. It's a question of whether there's enough money in it. One thing I have noticed a lot lately: as universities are mass-producing people who look to 'immaterial' productivity as a source of income there is a glut of would-be cultural managers some of whom are forced to descend to something as economically pinched as poetry as a field of control. Although there's not apparently so much money in it there is a sizeable market among middle-class would-be poets who provide good pickings in workshops, courses, etc and who aspire themselves to a kind of poetry that sublimates commodification: y'know, 'sensuousness', 'personal authenticity' etc. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic David, I'm certain that it is. Your examples are perfect. And they raise interesting questions: is the greeting card versifier more intellectuall honest than the slam poet? I suppose my mind is wandering about a central question: what are the effects of commodification and production on poetry (or any other art)? Does capitalism itself question the notion of art? Indeed, all things being equal, what separates the guy drawing funny portraits on River Street in Savannah from the artist drawing a figure study in a classroom? That's probably a poor example. But I think that the example addresses something important. What happens to art if it is mass produced? Does mass production affect poetry the same way that it affects the visual arts? I mean--a new edition of Keats is one thing, but a reproduction of a Picasso masterpiece is something else--or is it? Good Lord, are huge questions. I suppose I should go grade essays in order to turn off my mind. -- Jeff "Deep Thoughts" Newberry Do? That's the beauty of it. It doesn't do anything. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, David Bircumshaw wrote: Unfortunately Jeff poetry is quite as susceptible to commodification as most other things. Performance poetry is certainly going that way here in the UK, successful mainstream poets certainly do quite well, despite their protestations to the contrary, and the result again is an increasingly homogenised product, while lower down the scale there is poetry as an adjunct to an academic career, and, less intellectually compromised, the invisible bards of the greeting cards. best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our essential humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and sales. I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication world. Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has nothing to do with money. Best, Jeff Newberry Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/fe954f8c/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 16:59:21 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stain's Hunter College MFA Spectacular in a new space! Message-ID: <776481.16586.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hunter College MFA Spectacular in a new space! Banias, Colic, Funaro, Hoffman, Joblin & Kearns The Stain of Poetry: A Reading Series Saturday, July 11, 2009, 6:00pm - 8:00pm south 4th bar 90 South 4th Street at Berry St Brooklyn, NY (L Train to Bedford) In a Very Special Issue of Stain, we're test-driving a friendly new space in Williamsburg and celebrating Hunter's finest. Ari Banias has poems in recent or upcoming issues of Literary Imagination, EOAGH, The Cincinnati Review, Field, Aufgabe, The Portable Boog Reader, and elsewhere. He sometimes teaches writing and literature at Hunter College, and often sells books and hosts readings at Unnameable Books, in Prospect Heights. Danica Colic lives in Brooklyn and teaches writing at Hunter College, where she also received her MFA. Her poems have appeared in Terrain, RealPoetik, Arts & Letters, and Pebble Lake Review. Maya Funaro's chapbook Setting in Motion was released this spring by Fox Point Press. She completed her MFA in poetry at Hunter College in May of 2008. She holds a B.A. in Visual Art from Brown University and has studied printmaking, bookbinding and letterpress printing in Providence, Bologna and New York. Born and raised in South Jersey, she currently makes her home in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. Colie Hoffman lives and writes in New York, though she also calls North Carolina home. She received her MFA from Hunter College in 2009. Her work has appeared in Blood Orange Review, The Furnace Review and Obsidian. Alana Joblin grew up in Philadelphia. Prior to making New York City her home eight years ago, she earned her B.A. at Oberlin College, studying English and Religion, followed by seven months of writing poems in Israel's desert, as part of the Arad Arts Project. Alana earned her MFA in poetry at Hunter College, where she also teaches undergraduate creative writing. Her work has appeared in Quarterly West, Crab Orchard Review, Womens Collaborative Circle and RealPoetik. Caledonia Kearns lives in Brooklyn with her daughter and is the editor of two anthologies of Irish American women's writing. A proud graduate of Hunter College's MFA program, a selection of her poems were recently published in The New Haven Review. And we're proud to introduce you to South 4th Bar: http://www.south4thbar.com/, a laid-back neighborhood haunt supportive of local art! Excellent brews & cocktails await. South 4th Bar 90 South 4th St (between Wythe Ave & Berry St) Williamsburg, Brooklyn Take L to Bedford Ave or J, M, Z trains to Marcy Ave http://stainofpoetry.com _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/e0b61921/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 17:31:46 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser Message-ID: <8CBCE2AA168BEFD-F30-D34@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> A couple of weeks ago I heard Baron Wormser read at the Sunken Garden festival in Farmington CT. http://www.hillstead.org/activities/poetry.html It's a great venue when the weather is nice...The weather has not been kind to New England this past month. Lots of clouds and rain, and the night of the reading was no exception, drizzle off and on. The crowd thus? was crowded into a barn space rather than able to?lounge on?the spacious and lush Sunken Garden lawns. I arrived as the evening's?musical prelude was winding down and, with no seating left in the barn itself, I found a spot under a tree a short distance away from an open barndoor, in earshot but not in?direct eyeshot of the reader. I didn't really enjoy the poetry reading...but partly?it?could be that?I was in a gloomy (like the weather)?and tired state that evening. My main problem with the reading was that Wormser, for no apparent reason, read mostly poems that were in some way related to 'the writing life'. Not that there is anything wrong with that kind of poem. Most of us have written poems in this vein. But it seemed an odd choice to me to present so many?writerly poems together as the theme for an evening in front of an audience (mainly casual poetry fans) who have?come as much for the musical program prelude and?the?picnic-like?atmosphere, with?lawn chairs and blankets, food and beverage, as they?do for the poetry.?It might have been a better selection for a20reading before an MFA program audience or?at a summer writers conference. I'm not really deeply familiar with Wormser's?poetry, and I don't want to judge the whole of his oeuvre by the?sampling from that evening,?but the poems he read?all had an easy going?prose?style. Again not a uncommon thing to hear a poet?making good use of the prose resources, I just?wish I would have?heard?a few pieces that had real lyric drive or felt unmistakably?poetic in their language and mental movement. This poem was the best of the lot that night, I thought. It was funny and true... My Last Borders, or Poem Ending with a Homage to W. B. Yeats ? ? Once I read in a Borders Bookstore In a sea of shopping malls in New Jersey. A man sat in the first row and pawed over The poems he was going to read later during the open mic. He never looked up at me but snorted occasionally With vatic delight at his own precipitous genius. The espresso machine in the rear of the caf? Made troubled basso sounds like a dying cow. ? I read in the caf? because the "events area" Was hosting a talk on "Planning a Trust Fund." My books for sale were under a table on which a slide Projector sat and showed screens like "Your House-- Your Greatest Asset" and "Tomorrow Does Come." ? A woman in the third row (there were only three rows) Talked intermittently on a cell phone to someone named Yvette: "A re you really staying in a hotel, Yvette?" "You can get that much cheaper in Paramus." "I can't believe you're still seeing that loser." When people told her to be quiet, she said That she liked to talk and listen to poetry At the same time. She said it was "multi-sensory." After the reading she came up to me and told me She thought I was going to be a hick from Maine But I turned out to be a Jewish intellectual. She informed me that she was Jewish too that novelists were smarter Than poets and that she had been to Europe eight times. After the events director crawled under the Trust Planning Table and brought my latest title back to the caf?, She bought one of the two books that were sold that evening. ? How sad am I to do these readings? Just normal-aching-poet-sad? Delmore-Schwartz-cornered-by-the-abyss sad? Or cowardly? Afraid to be Sylvia-Plath-angry-sad And barge through death's sullen door, Sick of human idiocy, including my own? ? Later in the evening when I have repaired To the poetry section to gather my slender wits, I consult the oracle Yeats. He never drove on Interstates among convoys of 18-wheelers, Never searched asphalt acres for a parking space Around Christmas, never took a self-assertion seminar Or credit management workshop in a fluorescent warehouse. The chains of commerce never danced for him. ? He stood for the soul's exactions, the flawed Avid beauty of conscience. I read his poems=0 A And feel better, which is to say, sadder. ? ? 2008 Baron Wormser. http://www.phoenixbooks.biz/events222 -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/e6b6fdd0/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 8 17:42:22 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: <8CBCE2AA168BEFD-F30-D34@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBCE2AA168BEFD-F30-D34@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A5512BE.9030807@opus40.org> This one's still easy-going prose style to me. It's what I call Andy Rooney poetry -- hey, didja ever notice all the wryly amusing things that happen during a poetry reading? jforjames@aol.com wrote: > A couple of weeks ago I heard Baron Wormser read at the Sunken Garden > festival in Farmington CT. > http://www.hillstead.org/activities/poetry.html > It's a great venue when the weather is nice...The weather has not been > kind to New England this past month. > Lots of clouds and rain, and the night of the reading was no > exception, drizzle off and on. The crowd thus > was crowded into a barn space rather than able to lounge on the > spacious and lush Sunken Garden lawns. > I arrived as the evening's musical prelude was winding down and, with > no seating left in the barn itself, I found a spot > under a tree a short distance away from an open barndoor, in earshot > but not in direct eyeshot of the reader. > > I didn't really enjoy the poetry reading...but partly it could be > that I was in a gloomy (like the weather) and > tired state that evening. My main problem with the reading was that > Wormser, for no apparent reason, read mostly > poems that were in some way related to 'the writing life'. Not that > there is anything wrong with that kind of poem. Most > of us have written poems in this vein. But it seemed an odd choice to > me to present so many writerly poems > together as the theme for an evening in front of an audience (mainly > casual poetry fans) who have come as much > for the musical program p relude and the picnic-like atmosphere, > with lawn chairs and blankets, food and beverage, > as they do for the poetry. It might have been a better selection for a > reading before an MFA program audience > or at a summer writers conference. > > I'm not really deeply familiar with Wormser's poetry, and I don't want > to judge the whole of his oeuvre by the sampling > from that evening, but the poems he read all had an easy > going prose style. Again not a uncommon thing to hear > a poet making good use of the prose resources, I just wish I would > have heard a few pieces that had real lyric drive > or felt unmistakably poetic in their language and mental movement. > > This poem was the best of the lot that night, I thought. It was funny > and true... > > > My Last Borders, or > Poem Ending with a Homage to W. B. Yeats > > > Once I read in a Borders Bookstore > In a sea of shopping malls in New Jersey. > A man sat in the first row and pawed over > The poems he was going to read later during the open mic. > He never looked up at me but snorted occasionally > With vatic delight at his own precipitous genius. > The espresso machine in the rear of the caf? > Made troubled basso sounds like a dying cow. > > I read in the caf? because the "events area" > Was hosting a=2 0talk on "Planning a Trust Fund." > My books for sale were under a table on which a slide > Projector sat and showed screens like "Your House-- > Your Greatest Asset" and "Tomorrow Does Come." > > A woman in the third row (there were only three rows) > Talked intermittently on a cell phone to someone named Yvette: > "Are you really staying in a hotel, Yvette?" > "You can get that much cheaper in Paramus." > "I can't believe you're still seeing that loser." > =0 A > When people told her to be quiet, she said > That she liked to talk and listen to poetry > At the same time. She said it was "multi-sensory." > After the reading she came up to me and told me > She thought I was going to be a hick from Maine > But I turned out to be a Jewish intellectual. > She informed me that she was Jewish too that novelists were smarter > Than poets and that she had been to Europe eight times. > After the events director crawled under the Trust > 0A > Planning Table and brought my latest title back to the caf?, > She bought one of the two books that were sold that evening. > > How sad am I to do these readings? > Just normal-aching-poet-sad? > Delmore-Schwartz-cornered-by-the-abyss sad? > Or cowardly? Afraid to be Sylvia-Plath-angry-sad > And barge through death's sullen door, > Sick of human idiocy, including my own? > > Later in the evening when I have repaired > To the poetry section to gather my slender wits, > I consult the oracle Yeats. > He never drove on Interstates among convoys of 18-wheelers, > Never searched asphalt acres for a parking space > Around Christmas, never took a self-assertion seminar > Or credit management workshop in a fluorescent warehouse. > The chains of commerce never danced for him. > > He stood for=2 0the soul's exactions, the flawed > Avid beauty of conscience. I read his poems > And feel better, which is to say, sadder. > > > > ? 2008 Baron Wormser. > http://www.phoenixbooks.biz/events222 > > -- > Finnegan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 8 17:50:20 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: <4A5512BE.9030807@opus40.org> References: <8CBCE2AA168BEFD-F30-D34@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> <4A5512BE.9030807@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CBCE2D390F70FB-F30-E22@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> Tad, yes you're right...I didn't mean to suggest its style was different but it was the best of the ones presented of that style that evening. Sorry I missed your recent appearance in the Hartford area. How did that Sunday night event go at the Brewery? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser This one's still easy-going prose style to me. It's what I call Andy Rooney poetry -- hey, didja ever notice all the wryly amusing things that happen during a poetry reading?? ? jforjames@aol.com wrote:? > A couple of weeks ago I heard Baron Wormser read at the Sunken Garden > festival in Farmington CT.? > http://www.hillstead.org/activities/poetry.html? > It's a great venue when the weather is nice...The weather has not been > kind to New England this past month.? > Lots of clouds and rain, and the night of the reading was no > exception, drizzle off and on. The crowd thus > was crowded into a barn space rather than able to lounge on the > spacious and lush Sunken Garden lawns.? > I arrived as the evening's musical prelude was winding down and, with > no seating left in the barn itself, I found a spot? > under a tree a short distance away from an open barndoor, in earshot > but not in direct eyeshot of the reader.? >? > I didn't really enjoy the poetry reading...but partly it could be > that I was in a gloomy (like the weather) and=C 2 > tired state that evening. My main problem with the reading was that > Wormser, for no apparent reason, read mostly? > poems that were in some way related to 'the writing life'. Not that > there is anything wrong with that kind of poem. Most? > of us have written poems in this vein. But it seemed an odd choice to > me to present so many writerly poems? > together as the theme for an evening in front of an audience (mainly > casual poetry fans) who have come as much? > for the musical program p relude and the picnic-like atmosphere, > with lawn chairs and blankets, food and beverage,? > as they do for the poetry. It might have been a better selection for a > reading before an MFA program audience? > or at a summer writers conference.? >? > I'm not really deeply familiar with Wormser's poetry, and I don't want > to judge the whole of his oeuvre by the sampling? > from that evening, but the poems he read all had an easy > going prose style. Again not a uncommon thing to hear? > a poet making good use of the prose resources, I just wish I would > have heard a few pieces that had real lyric drive? > or felt unmistakably poetic in their language and mental movement.? >? > This poem was the best of the lot that night, I thought. It was funny > and true...? >? >? > My Last Borders, or? > Poem Ending with a Homage to W. B. Yeats? > > > Once I read in a Borders Bookstore? > In20a sea of shopping malls in New Jersey.? > A man sat in the first row and pawed over? > The poems he was going to read later during the open mic.? > He never looked up at me but snorted occasionally? > With vatic delight at his own precipitous genius.? > The espresso machine in the rear of the caf?? > Made troubled basso sounds like a dying cow.? > > I read in the caf? because the "events area"? > Was hosting a=2 0talk on "Planning a Trust Fund."? > My books for sale were under a table on which a slide? > Projector sat and showed screens like "Your House--? > Your Greatest Asset" and "Tomorrow Does Come."? > > A woman in the third row (there were only three rows)? > Talked intermittently on a cell phone to someone named Yvette:? > "Are you really staying in a hotel, Yvette?"? > "You can get that much cheaper in Paramus."? > "I can't believe you're still seeing that loser."? > =0 A? > When people told her to be quiet, she said? > That she liked to talk and listen to poetry? > At the same time. She said it was "multi-sensory."? > After the reading she came up to me and told me? > She thought I was going to be a hick from Maine? > But I turned out to be a Jewish intellectual.? > She informed me that she was Jewish too that novelists were smarter? > Than poets and that she had been to Europe eight times.? > After the events director crawled und er the Trust? > 0A? > Planning Table and brought my latest title back to the caf?,? > She bought one of the two books that were sold that evening.? > > How sad am I to do these readings?? > Just normal-aching-poet-sad?? > Delmore-Schwartz-cornered-by-the-abyss sad?? > Or cowardly? Afraid to be Sylvia-Plath-angry-sad? > And barge through death's sullen door,? > Sick of human idiocy, including my own?? > > Later in the evening when I have repaired? > To the poetry section to gather my slender wits,? > I consult the oracle Yeats.? > He never drove on Interstates among convoys of 18-wheelers,? > Never searched asphalt acres for a parking space? > Around Christmas, never took a self-assertion seminar? > Or credit management workshop in a fluorescent warehouse.? > The chains of commerce never danced for him.? > > He stood for=2 0the soul's exactions, the flawed? > Avid beauty of conscience. I read his poems? > And feel better, which is to say, sadder.? > > > > ? 2008 Baron Wormser.? > http://www.phoenixbooks.biz/events222? >? > --? > Finnegan? >? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------? > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > !? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------? >? > _______________________________________________?=0 A> New-Poetry mailing list? > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? > ? -- Tad Richards? Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!? http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner? ? http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/? http://opusforty.blogspot.com/? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/3d5add63/attachment.html From ccooley at overdomain.com Wed Jul 8 17:59:15 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: The Body Po(e)litic Message-ID: This conversation interests me for two reasons-- first, because it has an enormous impact on everyone who is working to make literary art (not in the pejorative sense, but in the sense of telling the truth, slant) and I guess that would include most people on this list; and second, because it is almost never discussed. All that, even though I "hate politics". But I've been reading Brecht recently, and I think he had a lot to say on this topic. Many people hated him (some still do) but I think they find him artistically rather hard to pin down with nasty labels like "Marxist", etc. He understood human beings-- a kind of timeless gift. I think even Brecht would be astonished at the voracity of the literary market today. By voracity I guess I mean that anything less than 50,000 volumes does not constitute a meal. It's interesting that this conversation is coming up now, just when the world is entering an economic depression, not yet widely recognized as such. I read the Schmall essay, and many of the comments that follow it. I agree with your comment Jeff that he says things like "globalism" w/o explaining, and seems to be fighting one large ill-defined dragon. I think the Nation mag defined globalism succinctly in their issue 4-5 years ago (I'm not a subscriber... my parents are :) that traced the ownership of world media to 7 companies. GE, Viacom, Disney, Time Warner, Murdoch... forget the other 2. They own every large TV station, radio station, book publisher, magazine & newspaper in Europe, Australia, and the US. I'm not sure to what extent this extends to the rest of the world. Anyone? Killing off fringe content (art, for example) is not a conspiracy, except a conspiracy of money. Money dictates that this must happen. However, there is in these media also a suppression of everything that might make advertisers uncomfortable, even if it might make money. And a promotion of status quo. Of course, that happened in Shakespeare's day too-- where Catholic heads that talked might end up on one of the pikes in London, etc. But the control today is much cleaner and more effective because it eliminates the possibility of martyrs: whatever doesn't please BOTH an EDITOR (acting on behalf of a corporate board, acting on behalf of their advertisers) and a SIGNIFICANT AUDIENCE doesn't get published. Martyrdom is not an option. You simply don't matter. This is powerful because it means an insufficient number of people will ever be influenced by the margin because the Big 7 (may be down to 5 or 6 today) OWN THE MEANS OF DISTRIBUTION. Not the means of production, which is now cheap & available. Anyone can put up a website, blog, print flyers, etc-- but these are all marginal productions with usually very small circulation and almost no effect. And I am sensitive to your pain David because I feel it too. Exceptions inspire me. Burning Man is an exception for visual art. (The music there is the most intolerable trance crap, however, with few exceptions. And I never heard a word of poetry. Except the found variety.) They created their own distribution of sorts and they make $15million per year. Commercialism and mercantilism are specifically banned. It is a thoughtful response to the exact question we're discussing. Slam is a good try in poetry. I like that the performers have some personally passionate thing to say, passionately. They turn to poetry for its enhanced rhetorical value. But the reference is more to hip-hop culture & its commoditization than to literature, or truth, or beauty, or great ideas from what I've heard. Fringe festivals are a good try in theatre, though I have to travel a long distance to find one (west coast, usa). I'm always hoping that somehow, a little art I've never heard will slip through unnoticed. I don't mean small presses, though I admit I don't read them much because I don't have time to have sift them myself. I want some posterity to do it. I truly appreciate the people on this list who don't mind sifting. I don't get paid for it, so it's impossible. >From my vantage point, the landscape looks like a dismal desert, with no meritocracy in sight. We have to overcome what Alexis de Toqueville called "the tyranny of the majority". There is, on the one hand, the polished, professional, truth-compromised, advertising-friendly media production; and on the other the unpracticed, unschooled, untalented crap. Where is the truth, told beautifully? Does anyone know of other exceptions? Literary art (let's say: dramatic scripts, poetry, novels) in the past 25 years that made it through to mass audiences (say, greater than 25,000)? Am I being ridiculous? Are there really too many to name? Am I a cultural ignorant, spinning theories of poverty in a world of plenty? It is difficult for me to tell. That's why I'm asking. Crisman Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:26:05 +0100 > From: "David Bircumshaw" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > I think too much about these matters, Jeff, to the point of pain, not > because it's an abstract issue to me, but because it impinges on my actual > life. > Grading sounds a good refuge, I've taken to making my own books recently, > it makes poetry a matter of doing something with one's hands, but the > potential of capital to commodify is sufficient to annihilate poetry as an > act of resistance. It's a question of whether there's enough money in it. > One thing I have noticed a lot lately: as universities are mass-producing > people who look to 'immaterial' productivity as a source of income there is > a glut of would-be cultural managers some of whom are forced to descend to > something as economically pinched as poetry as a field of control. Although > there's not apparently so much money in it there is a sizeable market among > middle-class would-be poets who provide good pickings in workshops, courses, > etc and who aspire themselves to a kind of poetry that sublimates > commodification: y'know, 'sensuousness', 'personal authenticity' etc. > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Newberry > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > > David, > > I'm certain that it is. Your examples are perfect. And they raise > interesting questions: is the greeting card versifier more intellectuall > honest than the slam poet? > > I suppose my mind is wandering about a central question: what are the > effects of commodification and production on poetry (or any other art)? > Does capitalism itself question the notion of art? Indeed, all things > being equal, what separates the guy drawing funny portraits on River Street > in Savannah from the artist drawing a figure study in a classroom? That's > probably a poor example. But I think that the example addresses something > important. > > What happens to art if it is mass produced? Does mass production affect > poetry the same way that it affects the visual arts? I mean--a new edition > of Keats is one thing, but a reproduction of a Picasso masterpiece is > something else--or is it? Good Lord, are huge questions. I suppose I > should go grade essays in order to turn off my mind. > > -- > Jeff "Deep Thoughts" Newberry > > Do? That's the beauty of it. It doesn't do anything. > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, David Bircumshaw < > david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > Unfortunately Jeff poetry is quite as susceptible to commodification as > most other things. Performance poetry is certainly going that way here in > the UK, successful mainstream poets certainly do quite well, despite their > protestations to the contrary, and the result again is an increasingly > homogenised product, while lower down the scale there is poetry as an > adjunct to an academic career, and, less intellectually compromised, the > invisible bards of the greeting cards. > > best > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Newberry > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:23 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > > > > Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and > utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between > production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where > it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must > continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a > receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive > manipulation of globalization?hat can flick us off autopilot and force us to > really think and use our imaginations?e-grounds us within our essential > humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe > whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly > imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative individuals?he very kind who > make up the tight-knit poetry world?otentially form a truly resistant body > politic. > > ?eremy Schmall at HTML Giant > > > This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am > not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, > however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because > globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and > sales. > > I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece > about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of > capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one > can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, > right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA > programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) > somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. > > Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to > write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books > establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At > the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger > publication world. > > Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not > sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of > thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is > the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected > university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her > college degree make her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of > a visual artist. > > As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a > national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. > And that compulsion has everything to do with something > unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That > compulsion has nothing to do with money. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/2125da23/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 8 18:19:47 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: <8CBCE2D390F70FB-F30-E22@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBCE2AA168BEFD-F30-D34@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> <4A5512BE.9030807@opus40.org> <8CBCE2D390F70FB-F30-E22@fwm-d32.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A551B83.7040402@opus40.org> It was great -- we all loved the Brewery - a terrific space. And since I can't play the guitar at the moment due to a torn rotator cuff, my friend Peter Lange came in from eastern CT and backed me up, which was all to the good, since he's a much much better guitar player than I am. BUT...you'll have another chance. I just agreed this afternoon to read on Tues. Aug 4 at Broad Street Books in Middletown. jforjames@aol.com wrote: > Tad, yes you're right...I didn't mean to suggest its style was > different but it was the best of the ones presented of that style that > evening. > > Sorry I missed your recent appearance in the Hartford area. How did > that Sunday night event go at the Brewery? > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: TheOldMole > Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:42 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser > > This one's still easy-going prose style to me. It's what I call Andy > Rooney poetry -- hey, didja ever notice all the wryly amusing things > that happen during a poetry reading? > > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > A couple of weeks ago I heard Baron Wormser read at the Sunken > Garden > festival in Farmington CT. > > http://www.hillstead.org/activities/poetry.html > > It's a great venue when the weather is nice...The weather has not > been > kind to New England this past month. > > Lots of clouds and rain, and the night of the reading was no > > exception, drizzle off and on. The crowd thus > was crowded into a > barn space rather than able to lounge on the > spacious and lush > Sunken Garden lawns. > > I arrived as the evening's musical prelude was w inding down and, > with > no seating left in the barn itself, I found a spot > > under a tree a short distance away from an open barndoor, in earshot > > but not in direct eyeshot of the reader. > > > > I didn't really enjoy the poetry reading...but partly it could be > > that I was in a gloomy (like the weather) and > > tired state that evening. My main problem with the reading was that > > Wormser, for no apparent reason, read mostly > > poems that were in some way related to 'the writing life'. Not that > > there is anything wrong with that kind of poem. Most > > of us have written poems in this vein. But it seemed an odd choice > to > me to present so many writerly poems > > together as the theme for an evening in front of an audience (mainly > > casual poetry fans) who have come as much > > for the musical program p relude and the picnic-like atmosphere, > > with lawn chairs and blankets, food and beverage, > > as they do for the poetry. It might have been a better selection for > a > reading before an MFA program audience > > or at a summer writers conference. > > > > I'm not really deeply familiar with Wormser's poetry, and I don't > want > to judge the whole of his oeuvre by the sampling > > from that evening, but the poems he read all had an easy > going > prose style. Again not a uncommon thing to hear > > a poet making good use=2 0of the prose resources, I just wish I > would > have heard a few pieces that had real lyric drive > > or felt unmistakably poetic in their language and mental movement. > > > > This poem was the best of the lot that night, I thought. It was > funny > and true... > > > > > > My Last Borders, or > > Poem Ending with a Homage to W. B. Yeats > > > > Once I read in a Borders Bookstore > > In a sea of shopping malls in New Jersey. > > A man sat in the first row and pawed over > > The poems he was going to read later during the open mic. > > He never looked up at me but snorted occasionally > > With vatic delight at his own precipitous genius. > > The espresso machine in the rear of the caf? > > Made troubled basso sounds like a dying cow. > > > I read in the caf? because the "events area" > > Was hosting a=2 0talk on "Planning a Trust Fund." > > My books for sale were under a table on which a slide > > Projector sat and showed screens like "Your House-- > > Your Greatest Asset" and "Tomorrow Does Come." > > > A woman in the third row (there were only three rows) > > Talked intermittently on a cell phone to someone named Yvette: > > "Are you really staying in a hotel, Yvette?" > > "You can get that much cheaper in Paramus." > > "I can't bel ieve you're still seeing that loser." > > =0 A > > When people told her to be quiet, she said > > That she liked to talk and listen to poetry > > At the same time. She said it was "multi-sensory." > > After the reading she came up to me and told me > > She thought I was going to be a hick from Maine > > But I turned out to be a Jewish intellectual. > > She informed me that she was Jewish too that novelists were smarter > > Than poets and that she had been to Europe eight times. > > After the events director crawled under the Trust > > 0A > > Planning Table and brought my latest title back to the caf?, > > She bought one of the two books that were sold that evening. > > > How sad am I to do these readings? > > Just normal-aching-poet-sad? > > Delmore-Schwartz-cornered-by-the-abyss sad? > > Or cowardly? Afraid to be Sylvia-Plath-angry-sad > > And barge through death's sullen door, > > Sick of human idiocy, including my own? > > > Later in the evening when I have repaired > > To the poetry section to gather my slender wits, > > I consult the oracle Yeats. > > He never drove on Interstates among convoys of 18-wheelers, > > Never searched asphalt acres for a parking space > > Around Christmas, never took a self-assertion seminar > > Or credit management workshop in a f luorescent warehouse. > > The chains of commerce never danced for him. > > > He stood for=2 0the soul's exactions, the flawed > > Avid beauty of conscience. I read his poems > > And feel better, which is to say, sadder. > > > > > ? 2008 Baron Wormser. > > http://www.phoenixbooks.biz/events222 > > > > -- > > Finnegan > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > > ! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 8 18:20:25 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: The Body Po(e)litic References: Message-ID: <500C488A0CC247718999D00826607D53@SN037832120162> I'm just listening to some of the big names in performance poetry here on the radio as I write: Mr Gee, Thick Richard, Scroobius Pip, Dockers MC etc. Now what comes out with them, at the top end, is seemingly 'radical', but the underside of this is a scene where people compete against each other in 1 or 2 minute slots, as if they were miming working at a fast food counter, and where the aim is to become a 'name', to 'make it', without which you are no-one. Appearance is overwhelmingly important. This concentration on competitive presence results in a style where speed is everything, to outflank the other, and a standardised 'radical' content cannot disguise the poverty of narrative language and the simple fact that these commodities exist solely to make the Small Businesses that perform them (the poets) money. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Crisman Cooley To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: The Body Po(e)litic This conversation interests me for two reasons-- first, because it has an enormous impact on everyone who is working to make literary art (not in the pejorative sense, but in the sense of telling the truth, slant) and I guess that would include most people on this list; and second, because it is almost never discussed. All that, even though I "hate politics". But I've been reading Brecht recently, and I think he had a lot to say on this topic. Many people hated him (some still do) but I think they find him artistically rather hard to pin down with nasty labels like "Marxist", etc. He understood human beings-- a kind of timeless gift. I think even Brecht would be astonished at the voracity of the literary market today. By voracity I guess I mean that anything less than 50,000 volumes does not constitute a meal. It's interesting that this conversation is coming up now, just when the world is entering an economic depression, not yet widely recognized as such. I read the Schmall essay, and many of the comments that follow it. I agree with your comment Jeff that he says things like "globalism" w/o explaining, and seems to be fighting one large ill-defined dragon. I think the Nation mag defined globalism succinctly in their issue 4-5 years ago (I'm not a subscriber... my parents are :) that traced the ownership of world media to 7 companies. GE, Viacom, Disney, Time Warner, Murdoch... forget the other 2. They own every large TV station, radio station, book publisher, magazine & newspaper in Europe, Australia, and the US. I'm not sure to what extent this extends to the rest of the world. Anyone? Killing off fringe content (art, for example) is not a conspiracy, except a conspiracy of money. Money dictates that this must happen. However, there is in these media also a suppression of everything that might make advertisers uncomfortable, even if it might make money. And a promotion of status quo. Of course, that happened in Shakespeare's day too-- where Catholic heads that talked might end up on one of the pikes in London, etc. But the control today is much cleaner and more effective because it eliminates the possibility of martyrs: whatever doesn't please BOTH an EDITOR (acting on behalf of a corporate board, acting on behalf of their advertisers) and a SIGNIFICANT AUDIENCE doesn't get published. Martyrdom is not an option. You simply don't matter. This is powerful because it means an insufficient number of people will ever be influenced by the margin because the Big 7 (may be down to 5 or 6 today) OWN THE MEANS OF DISTRIBUTION. Not the means of production, which is now cheap & available. Anyone can put up a website, blog, print flyers, etc-- but these are all marginal productions with usually very small circulation and almost no effect. And I am sensitive to your pain David because I feel it too. Exceptions inspire me. Burning Man is an exception for visual art. (The music there is the most intolerable trance crap, however, with few exceptions. And I never heard a word of poetry. Except the found variety.) They created their own distribution of sorts and they make $15million per year. Commercialism and mercantilism are specifically banned. It is a thoughtful response to the exact question we're discussing. Slam is a good try in poetry. I like that the performers have some personally passionate thing to say, passionately. They turn to poetry for its enhanced rhetorical value. But the reference is more to hip-hop culture & its commoditization than to literature, or truth, or beauty, or great ideas from what I've heard. Fringe festivals are a good try in theatre, though I have to travel a long distance to find one (west coast, usa). I'm always hoping that somehow, a little art I've never heard will slip through unnoticed. I don't mean small presses, though I admit I don't read them much because I don't have time to have sift them myself. I want some posterity to do it. I truly appreciate the people on this list who don't mind sifting. I don't get paid for it, so it's impossible. From my vantage point, the landscape looks like a dismal desert, with no meritocracy in sight. We have to overcome what Alexis de Toqueville called "the tyranny of the majority". There is, on the one hand, the polished, professional, truth-compromised, advertising-friendly media production; and on the other the unpracticed, unschooled, untalented crap. Where is the truth, told beautifully? Does anyone know of other exceptions? Literary art (let's say: dramatic scripts, poetry, novels) in the past 25 years that made it through to mass audiences (say, greater than 25,000)? Am I being ridiculous? Are there really too many to name? Am I a cultural ignorant, spinning theories of poverty in a world of plenty? It is difficult for me to tell. That's why I'm asking. Crisman Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:26:05 +0100 From: "David Bircumshaw" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic I think too much about these matters, Jeff, to the point of pain, not because it's an abstract issue to me, but because it impinges on my actual life. Grading sounds a good refuge, I've taken to making my own books recently, it makes poetry a matter of doing something with one's hands, but the potential of capital to commodify is sufficient to annihilate poetry as an act of resistance. It's a question of whether there's enough money in it. One thing I have noticed a lot lately: as universities are mass-producing people who look to 'immaterial' productivity as a source of income there is a glut of would-be cultural managers some of whom are forced to descend to something as economically pinched as poetry as a field of control. Although there's not apparently so much money in it there is a sizeable market among middle-class would-be poets who provide good pickings in workshops, courses, etc and who aspire themselves to a kind of poetry that sublimates commodification: y'know, 'sensuousness', 'personal authenticity' etc. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic David, I'm certain that it is. Your examples are perfect. And they raise interesting questions: is the greeting card versifier more intellectuall honest than the slam poet? I suppose my mind is wandering about a central question: what are the effects of commodification and production on poetry (or any other art)? Does capitalism itself question the notion of art? Indeed, all things being equal, what separates the guy drawing funny portraits on River Street in Savannah from the artist drawing a figure study in a classroom? That's probably a poor example. But I think that the example addresses something important. What happens to art if it is mass produced? Does mass production affect poetry the same way that it affects the visual arts? I mean--a new edition of Keats is one thing, but a reproduction of a Picasso masterpiece is something else--or is it? Good Lord, are huge questions. I suppose I should go grade essays in order to turn off my mind. -- Jeff "Deep Thoughts" Newberry Do? That's the beauty of it. It doesn't do anything. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, David Bircumshaw wrote: Unfortunately Jeff poetry is quite as susceptible to commodification as most other things. Performance poetry is certainly going that way here in the UK, successful mainstream poets certainly do quite well, despite their protestations to the contrary, and the result again is an increasingly homogenised product, while lower down the scale there is poetry as an adjunct to an academic career, and, less intellectually compromised, the invisible bards of the greeting cards. best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation of globalization?hat can flick us off autopilot and force us to really think and use our imaginations?e-grounds us within our essential humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative individuals?he very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry world?otentially form a truly resistant body politic. ?eremy Schmall at HTML Giant This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and sales. I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication world. Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has nothing to do with money. Best, Jeff Newberry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/ccb3f5d5/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 22:03:18 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Report: Baron Wormser Message-ID: <700983.62137.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I loved his memoir, The Road Washes Out in Spring, but when I checked out his poetry, discovered it wasn't for me.? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/cb824c7d/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 22:05:48 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] CFW - Call for Essays/Stories: Voices Through the Wall: Prisoners Write About Prisons [on behalf of Annie Finch] Message-ID: <151247.44008.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Call for Essays/StoriesVoices Through the Wall: Prisoners Write About Prisons???????????? The editors seek non-fiction essays and prose fiction by men and women currently incarcerated in American prisons. We believe that inmates constitute a rich but untapped intellectual and cultural resource.? We hope to create a collection that mines the experience and wisdom of inmates, in order to offer a better understanding of the prison?s place in society.? We seek authors who write with the authority that only incarceration can bring.? We want their voices to become part of a public dialogue about the prison system, its culture, the environment of today?s facilities, etc.?? We are open to many styles, but all submitted essays/prose must draw on first-hand experience.Some topics of interest to us are: conditions; coping; visions of a better way to operate (both personally and institutionally); self-reflection on the work of dealing with time inside; the challenges of physical and psychological survival; personal histories; what works and why it works; what doesn?t work and why it doesn?t work, etc. ?We are also very open to seeing what we hadn't looked for.? ?? Voices Through the Wall will showcase what the incarcerated have to offer to the public.? We value polished, quality writing that takes thoughtful positions even on the most passionately felt ideas. *** Word Limit: 5,000 words (approximately 15 double-spaced pages).? Please number pages.? Clearly composed handwritten manuscripts are also acceptable.? There is no reading fee. ?Authors should not send the sole copies of their work.? (Keep a copy of your own.)? Please include sufficient contact information (direct or through a program supervisor) so that we can inform authors of our decisions.? All contributors will be notified of results.? If possible, include postage (44-cent stamp) so we can mail our decision.? We cannot return manuscripts (which will be recycled). Program supervisors are encouraged to solicit high-quality work and submit essays together in a single mailing. The editors may request revisions of promising work. ***Send work to:??Voices Through the Wall?198 College Hill RoadClinton, NY 13323 Submission deadline: March 1, 2010 _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090708/ffdbd80d/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Jul 8 22:11:35 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] CFW - Call for Essays/Stories: Voices Through the Wall: Prisoners Write About Prisons [on behalf of Annie Finch] In-Reply-To: <151247.44008.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <151247.44008.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A5551D7.2060506@opus40.org> Get in touch with Janine Pommy Vega -- she might be able to help. She's done a lot of work in this area. amy king wrote: > > *Call for Essays/Stories* > > */Voices Through the Wall: Prisoners Write About Prisons/* > > > > The editors seek non-fiction essays and prose fiction by > men and women currently incarcerated in American prisons. We believe > that inmates constitute a rich but untapped intellectual and cultural > resource. We hope to create a collection that mines the experience > and wisdom of inmates, in order to offer a better understanding of the > prison?s place in society. We seek authors who write with the > authority that only incarceration can bring. We want their voices to > become part of a public dialogue about the prison system, its culture, > the environment of today?s facilities, etc. > > > *We are open to many styles, but all submitted /essays/prose must draw > on first-hand experience/.* > > Some topics of interest to us are: conditions; coping; visions of a > better way to operate (both personally and institutionally); > self-reflection on the work of dealing with time inside; the > challenges of physical and psychological survival; personal histories; > what works and why it works; what doesn?t work and why it doesn?t > work, etc. We are also very open to seeing what we hadn't looked for. > > > /Voices Through the Wall/ will showcase what the incarcerated have > to offer to the public. We value polished, quality writing that takes > thoughtful positions even on the most passionately felt ideas. > > > *** > > > Word Limit: 5,000 words (approximately 15 double-spaced pages). > Please number pages. Clearly composed handwritten manuscripts are > also acceptable. There is no reading fee. > > Authors should not send the sole copies of their work. (Keep a copy > of your own.) Please include sufficient contact information (direct > or through a program supervisor) so that we can inform authors of our > decisions. All contributors will be notified of results. If > possible, include postage (44-cent stamp) so we can mail our > decision. We cannot return manuscripts (which will be recycled). > > > Program supervisors are encouraged to solicit high-quality work and > submit essays together in a single mailing. > > > The editors may request revisions of promising work. > > > *** > > *Send work to:* > > * * > > ?Voices Through the Wall? > 198 College Hill Road > > Clinton, NY 13323 > > > *Submission deadline: March 1, 2010* > > > > > > > > _______ > > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 9 12:44:49 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baron Wormser Message-ID: <33919AA5-4DF8-43B1-8AAE-20AD2FDA084E@ripon.edu> I'll put in a good word for Baron Wormser, who is one of the most intelligent, quirky thinkers about poetics that I've met. His own poetry ranges pretty widely in subject and style, so he's hard to excerpt fairly. A lot of his work engages with Big Ideas, political and otherwise. But he also does lyrics, satire, narrative, and so forth. I do think his essays are particularly fine; and he's co-authored a couple of texts on teaching poetry that are well worth seeking out. A new-and-selected edition of his poems came out recently, but I haven't seen it yet. I also haven't yet read his memoir that Amy (I think) mentioned, but I do know something of his story, how he lived off the grid in rural Maine for many years. Here's a short poem that shows another mood/facet of his work. Opinion Halfway to work and Merriman already has told me What he thinks about the balanced budget, the Mets' Lack of starting pitching, the dangers of displaced Soviet nuclear engineers, soy products, and diesel cars. I look out the window and hope I'll see a swan. I hear they're bad-tempered but I love their necks And how they glide along so sovereignly. I never take the time to drive to a pond And spend an hour watching swans. What Would happen if I heeded the admonitions of beauty? When I look over at Merriman, he's telling Driscoll That the President doesn't know what he's doing With China. "China," I say out loud but softly. I go back to the window. It's started snowing. -- Baron Wormser, from Subject Matter (Sarabande Books). ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/ddda1c2c/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jul 9 13:12:39 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baron Wormser Message-ID: I like this poem better than the one in the review of the reading. I have one of his books but have never read a lot of Wormser. maybe the new and selected is a good place to start. **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/412a8930/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 9 13:25:57 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Judy Doyle to Retire from Curbstone Press Message-ID: <8CBCED17477A5A0-F6C-4E1@webmail-mh42.sysops.aol.com> http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6668709.html Judy Doyle to Retire from Curbstone Press By Judith Rosen -- Publishers Weekly, 7/1/2009 4:03:00 PM Curbstone Press cofounder Judy Doyle announced that she will formally retire from the publishing house that she and her late husband, Alexander (Sandy) Taylor, founded in the basement of their home in Willimantic, Conn., in 1975. Doyle had been on a leave of absence for the past seven months, while the board continued to oversee the day-to-day operations with staffers Bob Smith and Jantje Tielken. In a letter to friends of the press, board cochairs Paul Von Drasek and George Gibson praised Doyle as ?one of the pillars of independent literary publishing in America? and said that they expect to make a decision about Curbstone?s future path by the end of the summer. ?We have had productive conversations with potential partners,? they wrote. In the meantime, the 34-year-old press?s publishing program continues to move forward with distribution through Consortium. This fall Curbstone will publish only one book while it regroups, a reissue of its 2004 English translation of Wandering Star (Sept.) by Jean Marie Gustave Le Cl?zio, who was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature last year. The new edition has a redesigned cover and a foreword by Adam Gopnik. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/fd944be9/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jul 9 13:33:40 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <263993D7-5AB2-4A9D-99A2-DA3A147E7C28@ripon.edu> Wormser's really worth it, I think. Here's his web site, with a lot of info, including an archive of his poems, texts of his excellent lectures & essays, details about his textbooks, etc. http://www.baronwormser.com/ Buddhism It?s about not-about. I?ll start again And stop there?which is more like it. The Via Negativa goes Nowhere And that?s a lovely place?the empty lake In front of the barren hotel where some timeless, Karmic habitu?s look past one another. Better five minutes of Zen than A hundred books about Zen. Poems Are another story. They too inhabit No place gracefully, dwell Offhandedly in mini-eternities. They too welcome oblivion. Authorship?s A ruse but that fades. Sit still again. No nothing. You can feel it. Approximately. --Baron Wormser ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 9, 2009, at 1:12 PM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: > I like this poem better than the one in the review of the reading. > I have one of his books but have never read a lot of Wormser. maybe > the new and selected is a good place to start. > > Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/aa914cc8/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 13:59:44 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] CFW - Call for Essays/Stories: Voices Through the Wall: Prisoners Write About Prisons [on behalf of Annie Finch] Message-ID: <887292.26090.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you, Tad.? I'll pass the message along! --- On Wed, 7/8/09, TheOldMole wrote: Get in touch with Janine Pommy Vega -- she might be able to help. She's done a lot of work in this area. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/52ef06ee/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 14:23:57 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Message-ID: <954135.43568.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ And always reference this one for New York --? http://www.poetz.com/calendar/ But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other city / town poetry reading sites.? Perhaps my skills are lacking.? Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update my list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference when all seems complete!? That way, whenever intrepid poets travel, they'll be able to check the sites and see what's what in your town! Thanks, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/ada2c63b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 9 14:29:51 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: <263993D7-5AB2-4A9D-99A2-DA3A147E7C28@ripon.edu> References: <263993D7-5AB2-4A9D-99A2-DA3A147E7C28@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CBCEDA60F6CBF6-F6C-90D@webmail-mh42.sysops.aol.com> Another poem about poems??The one called "Opinion" was better. Finnega -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 1:33 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baron Wormser Wormser's really worth it, I think. Here's his web site, with a lot of info, including an archive of his poems, texts of his excellent lectures & essays, details about his textbooks, etc. http://www.baronwormser.com/ Buddhism It?s about not-about. I?ll start again And stop there?which is more like it. The Via Negativa goes Nowhere And that?s a lovely place?the empty lake In front of the barren hotel where some timeless, Karmic habitu?s look past one another. Better five minutes of Zen than A hundred books about Zen. Poems? Are another story. They too inhabit No place gracefully, dwell Offhandedly in mini-eternities. They too welcome oblivion. Authorship?s A ruse but that fades. Sit still again. No nothing. You can feel it. Approximately. --Baron Wormser ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 9, 2009, at 1:12 PM, AlMaginnes@aol.com wrote: I l ike this poem better than the one in the review of the reading. I have one of his books but have never read a lot of Wormser. maybe the new and selected is a good place to start. Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/80f04cb7/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Thu Jul 9 14:52:49 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <954135.43568.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <954135.43568.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A563C81.9080000@opus40.org> Poetz does Connecticut too - http://www.poetz.com/cgi-poetz/Calcium37.pl?CalendarName=connecticut&Op=ShowIt amy king wrote: > > I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- > http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ > > And always reference this one for New York -- > http://www.poetz.com/calendar/ > > But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other city > / town poetry reading sites. Perhaps my skills are lacking. > Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? > > Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update my > list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference when all > seems complete! That way, whenever intrepid poets travel, they'll be > able to check the sites and see what's what in your town! > > Thanks, > > Amy > > > > _______ > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 14:59:57 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Message-ID: <526043.23074.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thanks, Tad!? Will add it to the list.... --- On Thu, 7/9/09, TheOldMole wrote: Poetz does Connecticut too - http://www.poetz.com/cgi-poetz/Calcium37.pl?CalendarName=connecticut&Op=ShowIt amy king wrote: > > I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ > > And always reference this one for New York --? http://www.poetz.com/calendar/ > > But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other city / town poetry reading sites.? Perhaps my skills are lacking.? Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? > > Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update my list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference when all seems complete!? That way, whenever intrepid poets travel, they'll be able to check the sites and see what's what in your town! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/f7a2b8c0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 15:36:53 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baron Wormser In-Reply-To: <33919AA5-4DF8-43B1-8AAE-20AD2FDA084E@ripon.edu> References: <33919AA5-4DF8-43B1-8AAE-20AD2FDA084E@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907091236w3aec66e3q9fcbd740532bc844@mail.gmail.com> I look out the window and hope I'll see a swan. I hear they're bad-tempered but I love their necks And how they glide along so sovereignly. I never take the time to drive to a pond And spend an hour watching swans. I particularly like this passage on swans. I used to walk by a tiny lake where there were some swans. I remember I also did whatever I could to save one that had swollen a hook. I felt close to them. Then one day I passed closer and I thought they liked me because I felt they were part of my world, but it is true that they are bad-tempered. It is also true that I am quick, and nothing happened. On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:44 PM, David Graham wrote: > I'll put in a good word for Baron Wormser, who is one of the most > intelligent, quirky thinkers about poetics that I've met. His own poetry > ranges pretty widely in subject and style, so he's hard to excerpt fairly. > A lot of his work engages with Big Ideas, political and otherwise. But he > also does lyrics, satire, narrative, and so forth. > I do think his essays are particularly fine; and he's co-authored a couple > of texts on teaching poetry that are well worth seeking out. A > new-and-selected edition of his poems came out recently, but I haven't seen > it yet. > > I also > haven't yet read his memoir that Amy (I think) mentioned, but I do know something of his story, how he lived off the grid in rural Maine for many years. > > Here's a short poem that shows another mood/facet of his work. > > *Opinion* > > Halfway to work and Merriman already has told me > What he thinks about the balanced budget, the Mets' > Lack of starting pitching, the dangers of displaced > Soviet nuclear engineers, soy products, and diesel cars. > > I look out the window and hope I'll see a swan. > I hear they're bad-tempered but I love their necks > And how they glide along so sovereignly. > I never take the time to drive to a pond > > And spend an hour watching swans. What > Would happen if I heeded the admonitions of beauty? > When I look over at Merriman, he's telling Driscoll > That the President doesn't know what he's doing > With China. "China," I say out loud but softly. > I go back to the window. It's started snowing. > > -- Baron Wormser, from *Subject Matter* (Sarabande Books). > > > > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/31df0e71/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 21:14:08 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <526043.23074.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <526043.23074.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <583743.60520.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT: That's me. I do the blog, too, at www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com. JohnJ ________________________________ From: amy king To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 2:59:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Thanks, Tad! Will add it to the list.... --- On Thu, 7/9/09, TheOldMole wrote: > >Poetz does Connecticut too - > >http://www.poetz.com/cgi-poetz/Calcium37.pl?CalendarName=connecticut&Op=ShowIt > >amy king wrote: >> >> I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ >> >> And always reference this one for New York -- http://www.poetz.com/calendar/ >> > >> But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other city / town poetry reading sites. Perhaps my skills are lacking. Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? >> >> Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update my list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference when all seems complete! That way, whenever intrepid poets travel, they'll be able to check the sites and see what's what in your town! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/3f5961af/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 9 21:44:54 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <4A563C81.9080000@opus40.org> References: <954135.43568.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4A563C81.9080000@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CBCF1728426EAB-F44-31A5@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> You must have Poetry Flash, which covers the West Coast well. I've used it on trips to Cali. http://www.poetryflash.org/highlights_index.html Where is your list of calendars, Amy? I missed the link. Finnegan - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/5a9d6d59/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 9 22:34:22 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBCF1E11527337-F44-33C6@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> I like some of what Schmall is saying...though he could have crafted a better argument. Here are few quotes with my comments in parentheses... Dean Young put it during a poetry reading in Chicago last February, ?[Poets] are not a market, we?re a tribe.? [A tribe is not a good model for free minded and socially flexible individual.] The truly great promise of poetry?today, right now?is as a functioning site of resistance to globalization; and to be very clear, I don?t mean that poetry should be explicitly political, or anti- or pro-anything. Sloganeering is best left to pamphlets. [Pamphlets?...what century did we slip into?] I challenge anyone to read Noelle Kocot?s apocalyptic 33-page elegy, ?Poem for the End of Time,? and not come away from the experience utterly astonished as she weaves the political (?America your skull-shattered martyrs / Are fucked into God-symbols of music / Are fucked into Emerging Markets / Are fucked into frontiers slouching toward the rough beast / of Bloomberg?), with an intensely personal redefining of herself and ?neighborhood? following her husband?s death: [This is not 'explicitly political' poetry.?I must not know what political poetry is. I should say that I'm for explicitly political poetry as much as I'm for any form of political speech, including overt agit-prop.] In thinking about Schmall's essay, what I most want say about poetry, and the world of commodification, is that poetry,=2 0being based on one of?humankind's oldest &?simplest of?tools: language, will always be outside?(athwart)?commodification, because it is so old and so simple, based on just words, spoken or written, printed or pixilated, it's just organized signs we agree to make sense of (and in poetry's case, often we agree not to make certain sense of). If the whole world was a smoldering post-apocalyptic heap of rubble, people would still have poetry, because it's mouth and mind made, passed forward to ear and to eye, ever as it was and ever as it will be. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 9:23 am Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our essential humanity. After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative ind ividuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. ??????????? ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726).? I am not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism."? He sees globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and sales. I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about the way that production affects art.? If poetry is the opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, right?? Or maybe not right.? I am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write outside of the boundaries of commodity.? I realize that books establish reputations and make lucrative teaching careers attainable.? At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication world.? Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is?? I'm not sure).? I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber music?").? Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the french horn player?? Does her college degree make her "inauthentic"?? The same question could be asked of a visual artist.? As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program.? Nor do I have a national reputation.? I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so.? And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call "spiritual."? That compulsion has nothing to do with money.? Best, Jeff Newberry Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090709/e27ef8c3/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 9 22:43:03 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Jim Harrison on NewsHour with Jim Lehrer--Thursday, July 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBCF1F47D71D60-F44-3420@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Jim Harrison on NewsHour with Jim Lehrer--Thursday, July 9 Jim Harrison Interviewed on PBS?s The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer Thursday, July 9 ? ? Dear Friend, ? This Thursday, July 9, the The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer will feature poet and novelist Jim Harrison and his new book of poems, In Search of Small Gods. ? The interview can be seen on your local PBS station and on The NewsHour website: ?Poetry Series.? ? As a poet, Jim Harrison has been called an ?untrammelled renegade genius,? and In Search of Small Gods certainly proves the point. A starred review in Library Journal called the book ?highly recommended? and Booklist noted that Harrison is ?writing with more force and lucidity than ever.? ? I hope you enjoy the interview and welcome your thoughts and reactions to the broadcast. We also encourage you to forward this email to friends and post a comment on our Facebook page. ? Sincerely, ? Joseph Bednarik Copper Canyon Press poetry@coppercanyonpress.org ? ? To purchase books from Copper Canyon Press, and to read poems, reviews, and descriptions of Jim Harrison?s poetry titles, click on the titles below: ? In Search of Small Gods Hardback, $22 ? Braided Creek: A Conversation in Poetry (with Ted Kooser) Paperback, $15 ? The Shape of the Journey: New and Collected Poems Paperback, $20 ? Saving Dayli ght Paperback, $16 ? Letters to Yesenin Paperback, $12 ? ? For information on Jim Harrison?s fiction, visit Grove-Atlantic?s website. ? Please also check out the new and massive Jim Harrison: A Comprehensive Bibliography, just published by the University of Nebraska. ? ? ? ? ? Notice:? Copper Canyon Press loves poetry readers, and we occasionally send out email messages like this one to inform them about special events. If you know someone who would like to receive this email, please forward this message to them or send their address to poetry@coppercanyonpress.org and we?ll be happy to send it along. If you would like to not receive future email announcements, please send an email to poetry@coppercanyonpress.org with ?Remove? in the subject line. ? ? -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 10 00:52:12 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <583743.60520.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <526043.23074.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <583743.60520.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A56C8FC.1080801@opus40.org> And it's a really good job, John. The Connecticut poetry scene is excellent. John Jeffrey wrote: > Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT: That's me. I do the blog, too, at > www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com > . > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* amy king > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 9, 2009 2:59:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? > > > Thanks, Tad! Will add it to the list.... > > --- On *Thu, 7/9/09, TheOldMole //* wrote: > > > Poetz does Connecticut too - > > http://www.poetz.com/cgi-poetz/Calcium37.pl?CalendarName=connecticut&Op=ShowIt > > > amy king wrote: > > > > I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- > http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ > > > > And always reference this one for New York -- > http://www.poetz.com/calendar/ > > > > But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other > city / town poetry reading sites. Perhaps my skills are lacking. > Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? > > > > Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update > my list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference > when all seems complete! That way, whenever intrepid poets > travel, they'll be able to check the sites and see what's what in > your town! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 05:52:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <8CBCF1E11527337-F44-33C6@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com> <731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gmail.com> <8CBCF1E11527337-F44-33C6@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907100252o4ecb1bc3w7234aa40100573c5@mail.gmail.com> "In thinking about Schmall's essay, what I most want say about poetry,=2 0and the world of commodification, is that poetry, being based on one of humankind's oldest & simplest of tools: language, will always be outside (athwart) commodification, because it is so old and so simple, based on just words, spoken or written, printed or pixilated, it's just organized signs we agree to make sense of (and in poetry's case, often we agree not to make certain sense of). If the whole world was a smoldering post-apocalyptic heap of rubble, people would still have poetry, because it's mouth and mind made, passed forward to ear and to eye, ever as it was and ever as it will be." A quite reassuring statement. Derrida might not fully agree with Finnegan - nor Lacan, Deleuze and Guattari, and the entire post-French-species, but I tend to hope Finnegan is right especially thanks to the fact that we are consciously fighting with all available means to keep our eyes open and our ears clean. On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:34 AM, wrote: > I like some of what Schmall is saying...though he could have crafted a > better argument. > Here are few quotes with my comments in parentheses... > > Dean Young put it during a poetry reading in Chicago last February, > ?[Poets] are not a market, we?re a tribe.? > [A tribe is not a good model for free minded and socially flexible > individual.] > > The truly great promise of poetry?today, right now?is as a functioning site > of resistance to globalization; and to be very clear, I don?t mean that > poetry should be explicitly political, or anti- or pro-anything. > Sloganeering is best left to pamphlets. > [Pamphlets?...what century did we slip into?] > > I challenge anyone to read Noelle Kocot?s apocalyptic 33-page elegy, ?Poem > for the End of Time,? and not come away from the experience utterly > astonished as she weaves the political (?America your skull-shattered > martyrs / Are fucked into God-symbols of music / Are fucked into Emerging > Markets / Are fucked into frontiers slouching toward the rough beast / of > Bloomberg?), with an intensely personal redefining of herself and > ?neighborhood? following her husband?s death: > [This is not 'explicitly political' poetry. I must not know what political > poetry is. I should say that I'm for explicitly political poetry as much as > I'm for any form of political speech, including overt agit-prop.] > > In thinking about Schmall's essay, what I most want say about poetry,=2 > 0and the world of commodification, is that poetry, being based on one > of humankind's oldest & simplest of tools: language, will always be > outside (athwart) commodification, because it is so old and so simple, based > on just words, spoken or written, printed or pixilated, it's just organized > signs we agree to make sense of (and in poetry's case, often we agree not to > make certain sense of). If the whole world was a smoldering post-apocalyptic > heap of rubble, people would still have poetry, because it's mouth and mind > made, passed forward to ear and to eye, ever as it was and ever as it will > be. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 9:23 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > > Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing and utterly > unprofitable source of culture that exists in the gap between production and > capitalist appropriation; it is precisely in that gap where it can do the > most harm to the larger project of globalization, which must continually > expand both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a receding > horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the pervasive manipulation > of globalization?that can flick us off autopilot and force us to really > think and use our imaginations?re-grounds us within our ess ential humanity. > After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed tribe whose very > existence demands the full engagement of active, truly imaginative thinkers. > Engaged and imaginative individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit > poetry world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. > > > ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant > > This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am not > sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees globalism, > however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to poetry as well because > globalism is linked to capitalism, which is concerned with commodity and > sales. > > I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger piece about > the way that production affects art. If poetry is the opposite of > capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not supposed to, then one > can freely think about and produce poetry without worrying about selling it, > right? Or maybe not right. I am not one of those people who hate MFA > programs or who think that making a living off of writing (even poetry) > somehow "hurts" a poet or makes that poet disingenuous. > > Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to write > outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that books establish > reputations an d make lucrative teaching careers attainable. At the same > time, however, poetry is a relatively small player in the larger publication > world. > > Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm not sure). > I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind of thing--production > and value--in discussions of, say, classical music (or is the term "chamber > music?"). Does studying the french horn at a respected university with a > master teacher hurt the french horn player? Does her college degree make > her "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. > > As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a national > reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. > And that compulsion has everything to do with something unquantifiable, > something inner, something I might call "spiritual." That compulsion has > *nothing* to do with money. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/4502a3fa/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 10 08:11:07 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907100252o4ecb1bc3w7234aa40100573c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1247020037525.6b2d8a42-76d0-4a95-9d97-140e2baa3edd@google.com><731bb17a0907080623v3352e26fga6dbf3cb0470d825@mail.gma il.com><8CBCF1E11527337-F44-33C6@webmail-dx13.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70907100252o4ecb1bc3w7234aa40100573c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A572FDB.5030703@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > "In thinking about Schmall's essay, what I most want say about > poetry,=2 0and the world of commodification, is that poetry, being > based on one of humankind's oldest & simplest of tools: language, will > always be outside (athwart) commodification, because it is so old and > so simple, based on just words, spoken or written, printed or > pixilated, it's just organized signs we agree to make sense of (and in > poetry's case, often we agree not to make certain sense of). If the > whole world was a smoldering post-apocalyptic heap of rubble, people > would still have poetry, because it's mouth and mind made, passed > forward to ear and to eye, ever as it was and ever as it will be." > > A quite reassuring statement. Derrida might not fully agree with > Finnegan - nor Lacan, Deleuze and Guattari, and the entire > post-French-species, but I tend to hope Finnegan is right especially > thanks to the fact that we are consciously fighting with all available > means to keep our eyes open and our ears clean. > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:34 AM, > wrote: > > I like some of what Schmall is saying...though he could have > crafted a better argument. > Here are few quotes with my comments in parentheses... > > Dean Young put it during a poetry reading in Chicago last > February, ?[Poets] are not a market, we?re a tribe.? > [A tribe is not a good model for free minded and socially flexible > individual.] > > The truly great promise of poetry?today, right now?is as a > functioning site of resistance to globalization; and to be very > clear, I don?t mean that poetry should be explicitly political, or > anti- or pro-anything. Sloganeering is best left to pamphlets. > [Pamphlets?...what century did we slip into?] > > I challenge anyone to read Noelle Kocot?s apocalyptic 33-page > elegy, ?Poem for the End of Time,? and not come away from the > experience utterly astonished as she weaves the political > (?America your skull-shattered martyrs / Are fucked into > God-symbols of music / Are fucked into Emerging Markets / Are > fucked into frontiers slouching toward the rough beast / of > Bloomberg?), with an intensely personal redefining of herself and > ?neighborhood? following her husband?s death: > [This is not 'explicitly political' poetry. I must not know what > political poetry is. I should say that I'm for explicitly > political poetry as much as I'm for any form of political speech, > including overt agit-prop.] > > In thinking about Schmall's essay, what I most want say about > poetry,=2 0and the world of commodification, is that poetry, being > based on one of humankind's oldest & simplest of tools: language, > will always be outside (athwart) commodification, because it is so > old and so simple, based on just words, spoken or written, printed > or pixilated, it's just organized signs we agree to make sense of > (and in poetry's case, often we agree not to make certain sense > of). If the whole world was a smoldering post-apocalyptic heap of > rubble, people would still have poetry, because it's mouth and > mind made, passed forward to ear and to eye, ever as it was and > ever as it will be. > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > > To: NewPoetry > > Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 9:23 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Body Po(e)litic > > > Poetry, as it exists today, is a spontaneous, self-organizing > and utterly unprofitable source of culture that exists in the > gap between production and capitalist appropriation; it is > precisely in that gap where it can do the most harm to the > larger project of globalization, which must continually expand > both its productive and consumptive capabilities toward a > receding horizon. Anything that has the power to interrupt the > pervasive manipulation of globalization?that can flick us off > autopilot and force us to really think and use our > imaginations?re-grounds us within our ess ential humanity. > After all, we are a soft-skinned, flat-toothed, no-clawed > tribe whose very existence demands the full engagement of > active, truly imaginative thinkers. Engaged and imaginative > individuals?the very kind who make up the tight-knit poetry > world?potentially form a truly resistant body politic. > > > ?Jeremy Schmall at HTML Giant > > > This is from a larger essay (http://htmlgiant.com/?p=10726). I am > not sure exactly how Schmall is defining "globalism." He sees > globalism, however, as anathema to local culture, and thus to > poetry as well because globalism is linked to capitalism, which is > concerned with commodity and sales. > > I'm thinking about this issue because I'm working on a larger > piece about the way that production affects art. If poetry is the > opposite of capitalism, if poetry does not "sell" because it's not > supposed to, then one can freely think about and produce poetry > without worrying about selling it, right? Or maybe not right. I > am not one of those people who hate MFA programs or who think that > making a living off of writing (even poetry) somehow "hurts" a > poet or makes that poet disingenuous. > > Still, there's something to be said for the freedom poets have to > write outside of the boundaries of commodity. I realize that > books establish reputations an d make lucrative teaching careers > attainable. At the same time, however, poetry is a relatively > small player in the larger publication world. > > Clearly, my feelings are mixed about this issue (which is? I'm > not sure). I wonder why one never hears discussion of this kind > of thing--production and value--in discussions of, say, classical > music (or is the term "chamber music?"). Does studying the french > horn at a respected university with a master teacher hurt the > french horn player? Does her college degree make her > "inauthentic"? The same question could be asked of a visual artist. > > As I've said, I don't teach in an MFA program. Nor do I have a > national reputation. I write poetry because I'm compelled to do so. > And that compulsion has everything to do with something > unquantifiable, something inner, something I might call > "spiritual." That compulsion has /nothing/ to do with money. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > > Jeff Newberry > Everything is a commodity--i.e., something people exchange for other commodities, like affection, money and status. With art, the question we're really concerned with here is whether an artwork is designed mainly as a commodity to exchange for money or a commodity to exchange for the satisfaction of giving someone else aesthetic pleasure. (Whether it also becomes an economic commodity.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/17e2d4bb/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Fri Jul 10 10:17:39 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Santa Barbara Scene In-Reply-To: <200907100309.n6A39hrO001361@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200907100309.n6A39hrO001361@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Amy wrote: > > Please send me your poetry reading sites Here's the one for Santa Barbara: http://www.sbpoetry.net/ cheers, SPX From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 10:33:09 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Message-ID: <71624.4502.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Will add the blog too! --- On Thu, 7/9/09, John Jeffrey wrote: Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT:? That's me.? I do the blog, too, at www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/50c82cc3/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 10:53:40 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Message-ID: <709053.92534.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Finnegan, I do have that link - thanks for sending though!? I haven't posted the list yet -- I'll post it to my blog but will also send it to the listserves I've asked.? Still compiling, so please send! best, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Thu, 7/9/09, jforjames@aol.com wrote: You must have Poetry Flash, which covers the West Coast well. I've used it on trips to Cali. http://www.poetryflash.org/highlights_index.html Where is your list of calendars, Amy? I missed the link. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/65b8401b/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 11:07:57 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Santa Barbara Scene Message-ID: <105703.24706.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This is a list of readings coming up in Santa Barbara? Amy --- On Fri, 7/10/09, Barry Spacks wrote: On Jul 9, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Amy wrote: > > Please send me your poetry reading sites Here's the one for Santa Barbara: http://www.sbpoetry.net/ cheers, SPX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/82786aac/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 10 13:12:26 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <71624.4502.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <71624.4502.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A57767A.80702@opus40.org> Amy -- and you gotta hear John read sometime. I had the pleasure at the Riverwood festival. amy king wrote: > Will add the blog too! > > --- On *Thu, 7/9/09, John Jeffrey* wrote: > > > Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT: That's me. I do the blog, too, at > www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com > . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 13:18:07 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Santa Barbara Scene In-Reply-To: <105703.24706.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <105703.24706.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yeah, there's an "events" link All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 13:20:22 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Message-ID: <839563.51681.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> When he makes it to the NYC calendar or when I get to the CT calendar some visit some day! Cheers, A _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Fri, 7/10/09, TheOldMole wrote: From: TheOldMole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 1:12 PM Amy -- and you gotta hear John read sometime. I had the pleasure at the Riverwood festival. amy king wrote: > Will add the blog too! > > --- On *Thu, 7/9/09, John Jeffrey* wrote: > > >? ???Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT:? That's me.? I do the blog, too, at >? ???www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com >? ???. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/b3106719/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 13:30:24 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... Message-ID: <696988.60275.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> but poetry always stops me.? I mean I love fiction, I know fiction, but my attempts "devolve" into poetry .... Just wondering how common is this and what is the cause, doc?? So thought I'd ask a bunch of poets who might have the same itch, why can't you scratch it??? Why this hurdle in making the transition?? John Ashbery -- "...every time I sit down and try to write some fiction I end up writing a poem instead, so it gets continually postponed. In fact I often think it?s become for me a device for tricking myself into writing poetry." Kristy Bowen -- "While one of the coolest things about poetry for me is the ability to twist language in all sorts of ways, fiction depends far too much on meaning, on conveyance, to allow too much twisting or prodding before you lose your reader. Even in my own reading exploits, the point from which I enter a piece of fiction is entirely different from the state of mind in which I enter a poem. Anything can happen in a poem, jumps of logic, of image, of meaning, and I'm ..."? cont'd here:? http://tiny.cc/fiction502 http://tiny.cc/fiction502 Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/801e6c27/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 10 13:41:51 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... In-Reply-To: <696988.60275.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <696988.60275.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A577D5F.3020808@opus40.org> The only answer I can offer here is that I love all genres -- I'm driven to try to master all of them. Perhaps I have an unusual ability to compartmentalize my personality, which is not necessarily healthy in real life, but helps me as a writer. amy king wrote: > but poetry always stops me. I mean I love fiction, I know fiction, > but my attempts "devolve" into poetry .... > > > Just wondering how common is this and what is the cause, doc? So > thought I'd ask a bunch of poets who might have the same itch, why > can't you scratch it? Why this hurdle in making the transition? > > > John Ashbery -- "...every time I sit down and try to write some > fiction I end up writing a poem instead, so it gets continually > postponed. In fact I often think it?s become for me a device for > tricking myself into writing poetry." > > > Kristy Bowen -- "While one of the coolest things about poetry for me > is the ability to twist language in all sorts of ways, fiction depends > far too much on meaning, on conveyance, to allow too much twisting or > prodding before you lose your reader. Even in my own reading exploits, > the point from which I enter a piece of fiction is entirely different > from the state of mind in which I enter a poem. Anything can happen in > a poem, jumps of logic, of image, of meaning, and I'm ..." cont'd > here: http://tiny.cc/fiction502 > > http://tiny.cc/fiction502 > > > Amy > > _______ > > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 13:54:46 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... Message-ID: <701387.96368.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm just amazed by the seemingly-natural ability / reams of stories some have piled up in their noggins? ... I mean, I just read the interview with Annie Proulx in Paris Review; she touts having several lifetimes' worth of stories to write that she'll never get to... just roaming around in her head.? --- On Fri, 7/10/09, TheOldMole wrote: The only answer I can offer here is that I love all genres -- I'm driven to try to master all of them. Perhaps I have an unusual ability to compartmentalize my personality, which is not necessarily healthy in real life, but helps me as a writer. amy king wrote: > but poetry always stops me.? I mean I love fiction, I know fiction, but my attempts "devolve" into poetry .... > > > Just wondering how common is this and what is the cause, doc?? So thought I'd ask a bunch of poets who might have the same itch, why can't you scratch it????Why this hurdle in making the transition? > > John Ashbery -- "...every time I sit down and try to write some fiction I end up writing a poem instead, so it gets continually postponed. In fact I often think it?s become for me a device for tricking myself into writing poetry." > > > Kristy Bowen -- "While one of the coolest things about poetry for me is the ability to twist language in all sorts of ways, fiction depends far too much on meaning, on conveyance, to allow too much twisting or prodding before you lose your reader. Even in my own reading exploits, the point from which I enter a piece of fiction is entirely different from the state of mind in which I enter a poem. Anything can happen in a poem, jumps of logic, of image, of meaning, and I'm ..."? cont'd here:? http://tiny.cc/fiction502 > > http://tiny.cc/fiction502 > > > Amy > > _______ > > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/04ef70af/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 16:00:02 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... In-Reply-To: <4A577D5F.3020808@opus40.org> References: <696988.60275.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4A577D5F.3020808@opus40.org> Message-ID: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com> I write fiction, "flash fiction" is what some call it. Is it "poetic" fiction? I don't know. A couple of examples at: http://tatanacho.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/cone-of-uncertainty-and-rides/ http://www.online-tek.com/TTNC/James_Cervantes.htm - Jim On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 12:41 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > The only answer I can offer here is that I love all genres -- I'm driven to > try to master all of them. Perhaps I have an unusual ability to > compartmentalize my personality, which is not necessarily healthy in real > life, but helps me as a writer. > > amy king wrote: > >> but poetry always stops me. I mean I love fiction, I know fiction, but my >> attempts "devolve" into poetry .... >> >> >> Just wondering how common is this and what is the cause, doc? So thought >> I'd ask a bunch of poets who might have the same itch, why can't you scratch >> it? Why this hurdle in making the transition? >> >> John Ashbery -- "...every time I sit down and try to write some fiction I >> end up writing a poem instead, so it gets continually postponed. In fact I >> often think it?s become for me a device for tricking myself into writing >> poetry." >> >> >> Kristy Bowen -- "While one of the coolest things about poetry for me is >> the ability to twist language in all sorts of ways, fiction depends far too >> much on meaning, on conveyance, to allow too much twisting or prodding >> before you lose your reader. Even in my own reading exploits, the point from >> which I enter a piece of fiction is entirely different from the state of >> mind in which I enter a poem. Anything can happen in a poem, jumps of logic, >> of image, of meaning, and I'm ..." cont'd here: >> http://tiny.cc/fiction502 >> >> http://tiny.cc/fiction502 >> >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/d8c64c4f/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Fri Jul 10 16:27:53 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> Self Literacy. From Definitions for the New Millennium: The ability to accurate appraise your own written work. How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot's "a little grumbling in verse" in relation to The Waste Land qualify him for literacy or illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I wonder if I am literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much of the past 40 years. You? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/e98f78dc/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jul 10 16:36:56 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... Message-ID: I've written two unpublished novels and a double handful of short stories. I like writing fiction well enough but I've had zero success at it and it's never captivated me the way writing poems does. **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/971e126d/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Fri Jul 10 16:41:41 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] I want to write fiction but ... In-Reply-To: <701387.96368.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To paraphrase O'Hara, "Grace to be born and write as variously as possible." (Just thought of that.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/a4274791/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Fri Jul 10 17:25:56 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Santa Barbara In-Reply-To: <200907101600.n6AG05rO013672@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200907101600.n6AG05rO013672@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5DD12CF4-B538-4BFB-A9CE-2E6AA0AB1ED3@verizon.net> On Jul 10, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Amy wrote: > This is a list of readings coming up in Santa Barbara? It's a site including news of readings and other poetry matters. > SPX From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 10 18:46:58 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> Skip Fox wrote: > > *Self Literacy*. /From Definitions for the New Mill/ennium: The > ability to accurate appraise your own written work. > Is /Definitions for the New Millenium/ a book, Skip? I don't like the term, "self-literacy." A better one, for me, would be, self-objectivity"--but I don't like that, either. But I applaud the interest in what an attempt at a definition is being aimed at. > > > > How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot's "a little > grumbling in verse" in relation to /The Waste Land/ qualify him for > literacy or illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I > wonder if I am literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much > of the past 40 years. You? > I, too, have long tried to be (reasonably, since--yeah, perfect objectivity about anything is unlikely) objective about my self-objectivity, by whatever name. Some thoughts: 1. To wonder about how accurately you appraise your own work indicates /some/ self-objectivity. 2. To listen to adverse criticism of your work and /agree/ (sincerely) with it is another indication you have some self-objectivity. 3: Another indication: recognizing flaws in your work on your own. Especially of work others praise. (As with Eliot.) 4. I feel much better about a piece when I come upon it years after composing it and like it. Could be wrong, and realize that, but still believe I'm closer to being right about it than I'd be if I made the same judgement a week after composing it. 5. I think that the more elements of a piece you're aware of, and have evalulatory standards for, the more likely you'll be able to judge it reasonably well--your own piece or another's. 6. Still, I am never easy about how good a piece of mine is until one or more trusted colleagues show they think it good--by doing more than praising it such as critiquing it in such a way as to reveal their knowledge of it coincides reasonably well with yours. 7. Best is their being influenced by it enough to do works in emulation of it. 8. Unless best is the condemnation of colleagues you know for dolts. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/479c68ad/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 10 17:59:26 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> <4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org> Oh, lord. What's the weather like? Is hell freezing over? I agree with Grumman. Self-literacy is a horrible word. I kinda agree with him that self-objectivity is better, and kinda agree that it's not a great term either. But here is where Bob and I will seriously part company. I don't think a word is needed at all. Bob Grumman wrote: > Skip Fox wrote: >> >> *Self Literacy*. /From Definitions for the New Mill/ennium: The >> ability to accurate appraise your own written work. >> > Is /Definitions for the New Millenium/ a book, Skip? I don't like the > term, "self-literacy." A better one, for me, would be, > self-objectivity"--but I don't like that, either. But I applaud the > interest in what an attempt at a definition is being aimed at. >> >> How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot?s ?a little >> grumbling in verse? in relation to /The Waste Land/ qualify him for >> literacy or illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I >> wonder if I am literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much >> of the past 40 years. You? >> > I, too, have long tried to be (reasonably, since--yeah, perfect > objectivity about anything is unlikely) objective about my > self-objectivity, by whatever name. Some thoughts: > > 1. To wonder about how accurately you appraise your own work indicates > /some/ self-objectivity. > > 2. To listen to adverse criticism of your work and /agree/ (sincerely) > with it is another indication you have some self-objectivity. > > 3: Another indication: recognizing flaws in your work on your own. > Especially of work others praise. (As with Eliot.) > > 4. I feel much better about a piece when I come upon it years after > composing it and > like it. Could be wrong, and realize that, but still believe I'm > closer to being right about it than I'd be if I made the same > judgement a week after composing it. > > 5. I think that the more elements of a piece you're aware of, and have > evalulatory standards for, the more likely you'll be able to judge it > reasonably well--your own piece or another's. > > 6. Still, I am never easy about how good a piece of mine is until one > or more trusted colleagues show they think it good--by doing more than > praising it such as critiquing it in such a way as to reveal their > knowledge of it coincides reasonably well with yours. > > 7. Best is their being influenced by it enough to do works in > emulation of it. > > 8. Unless best is the condemnation of colleagues you know for dolts. > > --Bob > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 10 19:19:31 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > Oh, lord. What's the weather like? Is hell freezing over? I agree with > Grumman. Self-literacy is a horrible word. I kinda agree with him that > self-objectivity is better, and kinda agree that it's not a great term > either. But here is where Bob and I will seriously part company. I > don't think a word is needed at all. Brace yourself, Mole--I don't think a /permanent/ word, or term, is needed, either. But for the purposes of this conversation, something ad hoc is surely useful--and the attempt to find a good word or term for the "ability to appraise your own work" is a good conversation-starter. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/06081ef8/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 10 18:32:23 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org> <4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org> I can only quote Donald Justice, in a Workshop discussion over what "rhyme" meant. Justice said that rhyme referred to the last stressed syllable, and any unstressed syllables after it. Al Lee, speaking for the opposition, asked, "Well, then, what would you call correspondences before the stress?" Justice: "Just that. Correspondences before the stress." Bob Grumman wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: >> Oh, lord. What's the weather like? Is hell freezing over? I agree >> with Grumman. Self-literacy is a horrible word. I kinda agree with >> him that self-objectivity is better, and kinda agree that it's not a >> great term either. But here is where Bob and I will seriously part >> company. I don't think a word is needed at all. > Brace yourself, Mole--I don't think a /permanent/ word, or term, is > needed, either. But for the purposes of this conversation, something > ad hoc is surely useful--and the attempt to find a good word or term > for the "ability to appraise your own work" is a good > conversation-starter. > > --Bob > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 10 18:43:56 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Santa Barbara Message-ID: <942611.66172.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Added!? Thanks, A~ --- On Fri, 7/10/09, Barry Spacks wrote: On Jul 10, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Amy wrote: > This is a list of readings coming up in Santa Barbara? It's a site including news of readings and other poetry matters. > SPX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/c6debbe3/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 19:30:56 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> References: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com> <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <648208b60907101630h78a8a056l401682c445eb6bff@mail.gmail.com> No putzing around here: I'm a 100% failure at appraising my own work, though I am very very good at appraising the work of others, which I do in my function as editor, NOT as an online critic, which I would do If I were inclined as I don't give a fig about pobiz political considerations. Eliot is a perfect example of how one can do superb work independently of appraisal by "experts" or hisself. Tally-ho. - Jim p.s. - If you read the work of one Skip Fox, then From Definitions for the New Millennium would be self-defining. p.p.s. - Appraisingly: Skip Fox is the real deal. On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > > Self Literacy. From Definitions for the New Millennium: The ability to accurate appraise your own written work. > > > > How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot?s ?a little grumbling in verse? in relation to The Waste Land qualify him for literacy or illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I wonder if I am literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much of the past 40 years. You? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/cbac0597/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 10 21:58:51 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <648208b60907101630h78a8a056l401682c445eb6bff@mail.gmail.com> References: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com><50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> <648208b60907101630h78a8a056l401682c445eb6bff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A57F1DB.7090508@nut-n-but.net> James Cervantes wrote: > No putzing around here: I'm a 100% failure at appraising my own work It should be obvious what you need to do to become 100% successful, then. But how do you know how successful or unsuccessful you are unless you know how you /should/ appraise your work? One thing I've noticed with my stuff is that the pieces I like best seem mostly to turn out the pieces others like the best. --Bob > , though I am very very good at appraising the work of others, which I > do in my function as editor, NOT as an online critic, which I would do > If I were inclined as I don't give a fig about pobiz political > considerations. Eliot is a perfect example of how one can do superb > work independently of appraisal by "experts" or hisself. Tally-ho. > > - Jim > > p.s. - If you read the work of one Skip Fox, then From Definitions for > the New Millennium would be self-defining. > > p.p.s. - Appraisingly: Skip Fox is the real deal. > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Skip Fox > wrote: > > > > Self Literacy. From Definitions for the New Millennium: The ability > to accurate appraise your own written work. > > > > > > > > How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot?s ?a little > grumbling in verse? in relation to The Waste Land qualify him for > literacy or illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I > wonder if I am literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much > of the past 40 years. You? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090710/1b7d3e49/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sat Jul 11 06:12:43 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? In-Reply-To: <4A57767A.80702@opus40.org> References: <71624.4502.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4A57767A.80702@opus40.org> Message-ID: <94673.44096.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Mole. You, of course, were a wonderful mix of poetry and "what could possibly be next?" And then, "Ah, a sing along!" Always a welcome delight at a poetry reading, which too often turn into such lugubrious affairs. That night, though, was a good time. ________________________________ From: TheOldMole To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 1:12:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? Amy -- and you gotta hear John read sometime. I had the pleasure at the Riverwood festival. amy king wrote: > Will add the blog too! > > --- On *Thu, 7/9/09, John Jeffrey* wrote: > > > Dat ain't Poetz doin' CT: That's me. I do the blog, too, at > www.ctpoetnewsletter.blogspot.com > . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090711/1e3bdf8a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 09:46:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Trends That Will Affect Your Future by S. A. Schwartz Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907110646u4bbfed6ndda51557ac965af0@mail.gmail.com> http://www.explorejournal.com/article/S1550-8307(09)00049-4/fulltext One thing is clear from the start: as at the individual level, there is both a local and a nonlocal component, and at the social level this linkage exists as well. A portion lies within space-time, but there is also a portion that exists in the nonlocal energetic information domain. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090711/136518dc/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 13:16:36 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> References: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com> <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Eh, Skip! Now what's the term for being able to distinguish an "accurate" appraisal from one that's "inaccurate"? Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > *Self Literacy*. *From Definitions for the New Mill*ennium: The ability > to accurate appraise your own written work. > > > > How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot?s ?a little grumbling in > verse? in relation to *The Waste Land* qualify him for literacy or > illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I wonder if I am > literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much of the past 40 years. > You? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090711/3ab9c145/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 16:39:33 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chaparral--Summer, 2009 In-Reply-To: <906773.47109.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <906773.47109.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: one again, I am "and others" The summer issue of Chaparral is here! The new edition features an interview with Maggie Nelson and work by Dinah Lenney, Marsha de la O, Lynne Thompson, Leilani Hall, Gail Wronsky and others. http://www.chaparralpoetry.net/ -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 17:40:38 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: References: <648208b60907101300j179572fevc27b34f035ce9c3a@mail.gmail.com> <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907111440r1f547f3y6848444b0a732f2d@mail.gmail.com> It was: disaccurate the inaccurate, no that leaves you with a *dis-in* accurate the inaccurate, which leaves you with an *in* inaccurate the accurate, gets you just about there again Hal, I think there aren't any terms. On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Eh, Skip! Now what's the term for being able to distinguish an > "accurate" appraisal from one that's "inaccurate"? > > Hal > > "A paranoid is someone who knows a little > of what's going on." > --William S. Burroughs > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> *Self Literacy*. *From Definitions for the New Mill*ennium: The ability >> to accurate appraise your own written work. >> >> >> >> How many could we call self-literate? Would Eliot?s ?a little grumbling in >> verse? in relation to *The Waste Land* qualify him for literacy or >> illiteracy (or simply doing the Brit-low-ball). And I wonder if I am >> literate in this sense, and have wondered so for much of the past 40 years. >> You? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090711/25ad566b/attachment.html From hudson.jade at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 15:41:37 2009 From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ToxicPoetry.com Call for Submissions Message-ID: <943e8fc0907121241k6735ab72ndae784b4688bffb6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Poets, I have had the pleasure of taking part in the creation of a new independent online publication for experimental mp3 poetry ( www.toxicpoetry.com). We are in the process of constructing our first issue and are calling for submissions. Everyone who does mp3 format poetry is welcome to submit. Check out our guidelines at www.toxicpoetry.com Thank you, --Jade Hudson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090712/caebab07/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 12 19:52:25 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org><4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> <4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> That term 'self-literacy' is attrociously bad and if there are literate gods, won't gain traction. Self-objective is too broad. It could apply to the ability to evaluate your state of dress/psyche/driving/etc. Why not say descriptively, that he/she was contientious and clear-eye reviser of his/her own work. -----Original Message----- From: TheOldMole Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? I can only quote Donald Justice, in a Workshop discussion over what "rhyme" meant. Justice said that rhyme referred to the last stressed syllable, and any unstressed syllables after it. Al Lee, speaking for the opposition, asked, "Well, then, what would you call correspondences before the stress?"? Justice: "Just that. Correspondences before the stress."? ? Bob Grumman wrote:? > TheOldMole wrote:? >> Oh, lord. What's the weather like? Is hell freezing over? I agree >> with Grumman. Self-literacy is a horrible word. I kinda agree with >> him that self-objectivity is better, and kinda agree that it's not a >> great term either. But here is where Bob and I will seriously part >> company. I don't think a word is needed at all.? > Brace yourself, Mole--I don't think a /permanent/ word, or term, is > needed, either. But for the purposes of this conversation, something > ad hoc is surely useful--and the attempt to find a good word or term > for the "ability to appraise your own work" is a good > conversation-starter.? >? > --Bob? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------? >? > _______________________________________________? > New-Poetry mailing list? > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? > ? -- Tad Richards? Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!? http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner? ? http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/? http://opusforty.blogspot.com/? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090712/537aa70d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 12 21:15:29 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org><4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net><4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org> <8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > That term 'self-literacy' is attrociously bad and if there are > literate gods, won't gain traction. > Self-objective is too broad. It could apply to the ability to evaluate > your state of dress/psyche/driving/etc. > Why not say descriptively, that he/she was contientious and clear-eye > reviser of his/her own work. You're late to the thread, James. We've already agreed (me and Mole, and who else is there?) that we don't really need a name, and that neither term works too well. The real subject (I think) is how we can know ourselves to be conscientious and clear-eyed about our own work. Relatedly, how much can we trust others' opinions of it? Of course, the thing to do is just create and hope others like our "gifts" to them for the right reasons. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 12 20:18:12 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] David Orr review Thom Gunn's Selected Message-ID: <8CBD1668AEC9FAD-B3C-8DC@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/books/review/Orr-t.html Too Close to Touch By DAVID ORR Published: July 10, 2009 All poets, if they are any good,? Charles Simic has said, ?tend to stand apart from their literary age.? The key phrase here, of course, is ?if they are any good?; average poets don?t just stand within their age, they compose it. But we sometimes talk as if ?poets are exceptions not simply when they write well, but because they write at all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090712/61f11753/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 20:33:07 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu> <4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org> <4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> <4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org> <8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> <4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907121733y7051a34ayf1376134c64ab6ec@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bob, several other people were there, me among them. This mail to remind you that the Bible calls them "pearls"... On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 3:15 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > >> That term 'self-literacy' is attrociously bad and if there are literate >> gods, won't gain traction. >> Self-objective is too broad. It could apply to the ability to evaluate >> your state of dress/psyche/driving/etc. >> Why not say descriptively, that he/she was contientious and clear-eye >> reviser of his/her own work. >> > You're late to the thread, James. We've already agreed (me and Mole, and > who else is there?) that we don't really need a name, and that neither term > works too well. The real subject (I think) is how we can know ourselves to > be conscientious and clear-eyed about our own work. > > Relatedly, how much can we trust others' opinions of it? > > Of course, the thing to do is just create and hope others like our "gifts" > to them for the right reasons. > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/1419c234/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Jul 12 20:43:28 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net><4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org><4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net><4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org><8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> <4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CBD16A125D9B15-B3C-98E@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> Bob, I don't know that we can know if we're being conscientious and clear-eyed in our assessment of our own work. I think there have been a number of psychological studies published?related to the built-in?bias and inherent fallacies of self-assessment. If successive drafts (from the first to the last)?are available in a archive, comparisons could be?made and then, somewhat objectively, they might be assessed as better?in latter versions and then in the final form. There have been a few cases of critics and scholars criticizing the poet for certain late revisions (the Auden case comes to mind), particularly being?critical of changes to published poems. I wonder if any poem, which became known/canonical in its final form, was ever found to?have?a clearly?'better version', according to the argument/opinion of a scholar/critic than the poem that we know. Certainly in literary history some poet has written way past his best version. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Sun, Jul 12, 2009 9:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? jforjames@aol.com wrote:? > That term 'self-literacy' is attrociously bad and if there are > literate gods, won't gain traction.? > Self-objective is too broad. It could apply to the ability to evaluate > your state of dress/psyche/driving/etc.? > Why not say descriptively, that he/she was contientious and clear-eye > reviser of his/her own work.? You're late to the thread, James. We've already agreed (me and Mole, and who else is there?) that we don't really need a name, and that neither term works too well. The real subject (I think) is how we can know ourselves to be conscientious and clear-eyed about our own work.? ? Relatedly, how much can we trust others' opinions of it?? ? Of course, the thing to do is just create and hope others like our "gifts" to them for the right reasons.? ? --Bob? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090712/633cd154/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Jul 13 10:11:18 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Terms In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907121733y7051a34ayf1376134c64ab6ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <50E4B8410D1B4705815E82A9BA97410E@win.louisiana.edu><4A57C4E2.5020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A57B9BE.3090304@opus40.org><4A57CC83.5000504@nut-n-but.net> <4A57C177.4090301@opus40.org><8CBD162F0E75FA9-B3C-838@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com><4A5A8AB1.4010607@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70907121733y7051a34ayf1376134c64ab6ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBD1DAEC77DCC5-8AC-16D7@WEBMAIL-DZ28.sysops.aol.com> Related to new words and terms, have people noticed these sites?: Dictionary without borders/limits... http://www.wordnik.com/pages/about Keeping up with slang, patois, etc... http://www.urbandictionary.com/ Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Sun, Jul 12, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. And interesting concept? Dear Bob, several other people were there, me among them. This mail to remind you that the Bible calls them "pearls"... On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 3:15 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: jforjames@aol.com wrote: That term 'self-literacy' is attrociously bad and if there are literate gods, won't gain traction. Self-objective is too broad. It could apply to the ability to evaluate your state of dress/psyche/driving/etc. Why not say descriptively, that he/she was contientious and clear-eye reviser of his/her own work. You're late to the thread, James. ?We've already agreed (me and Mole, and who else is there?) that we don't really need a name, and that neither term works too well. ?The real subject (I think) is how we can know ourselves to be conscientious and clear-eyed about our own work. Relatedly, how much can we trust others' opinions of it? Of course, the thing to do is just create and hope others like our "gifts" to them for the right reasons. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/d43741fb/attachment.html From locriansky at yahoo.com Mon Jul 13 10:54:59 2009 From: locriansky at yahoo.com (locriansky@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Crea?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tive-_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <4A51AEEB.5050303@opus40.org> References: <4A4E4015.7040507@nut-n-but.net> <4A4E598B.8040908@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> <156194.95572.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A51AEEB.5050303@opus40.org> Message-ID: <120358.99868.qm@web112517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Darn ... I guess I will crawl back into exile. Kaz ----- Original Message ---- From: TheOldMole To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 12:59:39 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri ting Programs What are your credentials? locriansky@yahoo.com wrote: > Is this a private party or can anyone get in on this non-intellectual > thing? > Kaz > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* Bob Grumman > *Cc:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2009 12:28:51 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri > ting Programs > > Makes sense to me, Bob. You can color me non-intellectual too. > > Hal > > "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." > --Joseph Stalin > > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not > make one anti-Staten Island. > > Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother > > Point taken, Hal. Non-intellectual? > > --Bob > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Mon Jul 13 12:20:26 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The low-responsibility MFA program Message-ID: <8CBD1ECF70DEBA8-8C0-87B@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com> The low-responsibility MFA program: In these stressful times for young adults there is a?need for new kind of MFA program. The low-responsibility MFA program puts the student in control his/her MFA experience. Students are encouraged but not required to fall into a curriculum that involves any or none of the following pursuits? Getting a Tattoo: A Life-Long Accomplishment & Balancing One?s Piercings for Less Neck Pain The Tardy Muse: Strategies for Killing Time While Waiting for Inspiration. Couch-Surfing Across America in the Kerouac Style Libraries Are Labyrinths: Getting Lost in Stacks for Fun (Bring a Snack) Thrift-Store Bargains: A Good Eye for the Black Be?a?Green Ghost: No Car, No House, Means Minimal Environmental Impact (Carbon in Pencils is Okay) Portrait of An Artist: Mastering the Slouch, the Pout, and the Ability to Stare Into Space for Hours on End Weekly Playshops: The antiWorkshop for Playing With Words (Location & Time to Be Announced When The Spirit Moves) Teachers and assigned mentors will keep their distance so as not interfere with free-wheeling creativity of their students. Students will self-report their progress toward a degree and upon completion of their variable terms of study will optionally present ?some ideas that they had for poems? to the director. The director is authorized to grant degrees liberally and without prejudice in respect of the diversity of student experiences and the efforts they have not undertaken. =0 A Tuition will billed directly to parental or guardian credit cards. Sorry no refunds for early withdrawal or student?s inability to attend because there is no way to tell whether any student is around or not. Note: This school complies fully with ?non-interference policy? of The Federation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/a80c68f7/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 12:29:54 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The low-responsibility MFA program In-Reply-To: <8CBD1ECF70DEBA8-8C0-87B@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD1ECF70DEBA8-8C0-87B@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > Getting a Tattoo: A Life-Long Accomplishment & Balancing One?s Piercings for > Less Neck Pain http://ineradicablestain.com/skin-guidelines.html > The Tardy Muse: Strategies for Killing Time While Waiting for Inspiration. > Couch-Surfing Across America in the Kerouac Style > Libraries Are Labyrinths: Getting Lost in Stacks for Fun (Bring a Snack) > Thrift-Store Bargains: A Good Eye for the Black > Be?a?Green Ghost: No Car, No House, Means Minimal Environmental Impact > (Carbon in Pencils is Okay) http://www.lazyenvironmentalist.com/ > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From chris at chrislott.org Mon Jul 13 13:03:40 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5BNew=2DPoetry=5D_An_Era_of_D=C3=28c=29tente_for_Creative=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Wri_ting_Programs?= In-Reply-To: <120358.99868.qm@web112517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4A4F3893.8020409@nut-n-but.net> <4A4F814E.9010906@nut-n-but.net> <156194.95572.qm@web112510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4A51AEEB.5050303@opus40.org> <120358.99868.qm@web112517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you have the invisible code tattooed on your forehead that can be revealed in Bob's special light? c On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 6:54 AM, wrote: > > Darn ... I guess I will crawl back into exile. > > Kaz > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: TheOldMole > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 12:59:39 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri ting Programs > > What are your credentials? > > locriansky@yahoo.com wrote: >> Is this a private party or can anyone get in on this non-intellectual >> thing? >> Kaz >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Halvard Johnson >> *To:* Bob Grumman >> *Cc:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2009 12:28:51 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] An Era of D?(c)tente for Creative- Wri >> ting Programs >> >> Makes sense to me, Bob. You can color me non-intellectual too. >> >> Hal >> >> "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. >> Those who count the ballots decide everything." >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Joseph Stalin >> >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bob Grumman > > wrote: >> >> ? ? Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> ? ? ? ? Bob, Bob, Bob. Not wanting to live on Staten Island does not >> ? ? ? ? make one anti-Staten Island. >> >> ? ? ? ? Hal, rising to the defense of his Alaska brother >> >> ? ? Point taken, Hal. ?Non-intellectual? >> >> ? ? --Bob >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Jul 13 13:09:09 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <8CBD16A125D9B15-B3C-98E@WEBMAIL-DZ15.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I was dealing with the idea of "self literacy" not as a term (I don't like the terminology necessarily, but it's far better than "creative writing," language only a bureaucrat or drill sergeant could love) but as an idea. We speak about "musical literacy," "mathematical literacy" (wherewith Bob would take a rich pot of red ink to the lot of us), etc., as types of literacy. I was thinking of "self-literacy" more on a scale, though it may well be a type as well. (I'll avoid diving into the toxicity of dialectical thinking.) I'd said of our local paper, The Daily Advertiser, that one needn't be literate to read it, in fact one need barely be able to chew. We might easily think of a scale of literacy, from being unable to recognize your own name to, say, speed reading Finnigan's Wake while playing four master games of chess consecutively. Whatever. (Educators and neuro-linguists have words for this.) I found it ironic that many people (writers) for whom a high level of literacy is central to their world seem incapable of judging their own work. Is that interesting? Now the issue of who's to tell . . . Hmmm. Another story. And one that gives, perhaps, under-considered weight to the epistemological over the intuitive or ontological. Hmmm. I like what Bob said. That many people have picked the same poems as he would as his best. (That is not my experience, necessarily, except I could say my best reader, a fine writer, sees the same things as I do in both our works and usually in the works of others.) But need we have that objectivity machine screaming in our ears to the detriment of sounding ourselves in as honest a manner as possible? Might the idea of accurately appraising one's own work be worth an important place in our thinking without being totally distracted by a hall-monitor issue? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/5d145b17/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Jul 13 14:15:13 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] How might we accurately appraise, whatever the hell accuracy means? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And good self-appraisal is necessary for good revision. After all, what faith could we bring to the process of revision if we had no faith in our ability to appraise? How would we even know what way to go next? What life of words to live? Hmmm. I think my own inaccurate appraisals occurred mainly in the first ten years of writing. (Some perhaps in the first few hours of days after the composition of a new work, but this even seems less and less the case.) Those are the only two periods, it seems to me now (after 40 years). To the question of "How we might best appraise?" I have no certain answers. Here are a few speculations: 1. I know the ability to step aside from ego concerns, helps, as does trying to become less self-deceptive in one's entire life and thinking. (How is this done? Seeing the mechanisms of others and honestly inquiring into oneself. I must admit, I couldn't really do this to any satisfaction until old age.) 2. Having a large frame of reference: a lot of reading or a big mind with sufficient reading (i.e., how did Rimbaud do it at 17?). 3. Not being enthralled by the frame of reference. That is, trying to read others in their own terms (not in how well their logic holds up to Justice's, or their dry insight to Larkin's). As with others, this works with the self, only the possibility of self-deception increases with the latter. 4. In total trying to read others better and not get enamored or disgusted with superficialities, inconsequentials, etc. (This is why NewPoetry is of significant use.) 5. Learning to listen to the language. (I know, sounds hippy-dippy, but I mean it. When I write it feels as though I am within a luminous, fleshy presence at is both myself and not myself . . . perhaps the distinction is not worth the concern compared to what is going on under pen . . . and it seems in a way as though the language is writing itself. At such times, all words rhyme, every line contains the rest, including the entire text, in holograph, etc. That's what it feels like. And when I appraise in the midst of revision that's the world we are in, isn't it? I realize it might be different for, or expressed differently by you, but many of us probably have the sense of setting aside the concerns of the minimal creature to entertain a greater presence. Learning to listen to (or in) that, whatever it is, and to follow it as best we might.) Other ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/0eab15c5/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Jul 13 16:09:47 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Your city's / town's poetry reading calendar? - Last calls? Message-ID: <821245.26165.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm finishing up the list - if anyone has more to add, please send today! Thanks, Amy --- On Thu, 7/9/09, amy king? wrote: I found this great one for Chicago (updated daily) -- http://www.chicagopoetrycalendar.org/ But I recently discovered in my web searches a sad lack of other city / town poetry reading sites.? Perhaps my skills are lacking.? Portland, OR only has one site about the police making poetry...? Please send me your poetry reading sites so that I might update my list -- I'll post it here and on my blog for future reference when all seems complete!? That way, whenever intrepid poets travel, they'll be able to check the sites and see what's what in your town! Thanks, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/892c11d1/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 17:10:24 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The low-responsibility MFA program In-Reply-To: <8CBD1ECF70DEBA8-8C0-87B@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD1ECF70DEBA8-8C0-87B@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907131410t29e78a9fqf60c8a766bcb8c19@mail.gmail.com> That's terrific. Thanks! - Jim On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote: > The low-responsibility MFA program: > In these stressful times for young adults there is a?need for new kind of > MFA program. The low-responsibility MFA program puts the student in control > his/her MFA experience. Students are encouraged but not required to fall > into a curriculum that involves any or none of the following pursuits? > Getting a Tattoo: A Life-Long Accomplishment & Balancing One?s Piercings for > Less Neck Pain > The Tardy Muse: Strategies for Killing Time While Waiting for Inspiration. > Couch-Surfing Across America in the Kerouac Style > Libraries Are Labyrinths: Getting Lost in Stacks for Fun (Bring a Snack) > Thrift-Store Bargains: A Good Eye for the Black > Be?a?Green Ghost: No Car, No House, Means Minimal Environmental Impact > (Carbon in Pencils is Okay) > Portrait of An Artist: Mastering the Slouch, the Pout, and the Ability to > Stare Into Space for Hours on End > Weekly Playshops: The antiWorkshop for Playing With Words (Location & Time > to Be Announced When The Spirit Moves) > Teachers and assigned mentors will keep their distance so as not interfere > with free-wheeling creativity of their students. Students will self-report > their progress toward a degree and upon completion of their variable terms > of study will optionally present ?some ideas that they had for poems? to the > director. The director is authorized to grant degrees liberally and without > prejudice in respect of the diversity of student experiences and the efforts > they have not undertaken. > Tuition will billed directly to parental or guardian credit cards. Sorry no > refunds for early withdrawal or student?s inability to attend because there > is no way to tell whether any student is around or not. Note: This school > complies fully with ?non-interference policy? of The Federation. > > ________________________________ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, > celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 17:10:39 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A poem Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907131410h4213f6d9ue524a412258e34b@mail.gmail.com> Jeff Harrison writes on Antic View: http://anticview.blogspot.com/ A poem clarifies a mystery by stating it (and opening new mysteries that usurp the previous mystery's empery). A poem is the mystery of language, a mystery that cannot be clarified by any language outside poetry, nor any language outside a particular poem. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/d6584da0/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 17:16:31 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A poem In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907131410h4213f6d9ue524a412258e34b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70907131410h4213f6d9ue524a412258e34b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60907131416t303737ffn3f166680d0c474e4@mail.gmail.com> Well, that is sufficiently mysterious. Or is a poem really like a bit of that spongy gray stuff? - Jim On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Jeff Harrison writes on Antic View: > http://anticview.blogspot.com/ > > > A poem clarifies a mystery by stating it (and opening new mysteries that > usurp the previous mystery's empery). A poem is the mystery of language, a > mystery that cannot be clarified by any language outside poetry, nor any > language outside a particular poem. > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 17:28:41 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A poem In-Reply-To: <648208b60907131416t303737ffn3f166680d0c474e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70907131410h4213f6d9ue524a412258e34b@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60907131416t303737ffn3f166680d0c474e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907131428p4890d1e4ob61c17f57f891617@mail.gmail.com> I guess your question sort of answers, in a surgical way, your statement. On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:16 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Well, that is sufficiently mysterious. Or is a poem really like a bit > of that spongy gray stuff? > > - Jim > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Anny > Ballardini wrote: > > Jeff Harrison writes on Antic View: > > http://anticview.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > A poem clarifies a mystery by stating it (and opening new mysteries that > > usurp the previous mystery's empery). A poem is the mystery of language, > a > > mystery that cannot be clarified by any language outside poetry, nor any > > language outside a particular poem. > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/c7d3cb1b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Jul 13 20:56:54 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CBD2351D47E9D9-ED0-123@WEBMAIL-MA03.sysops.aol.com> (That is not my experience, necessarily, except I could say my best reader, a fine writer, sees the same things as I do in both our works and usually in the works of others.) - Skip, that's?an?experience of the concept of the 'ideal reader'. I don't think we should expect?congruent attention as a matter of course. I do believe in the 'law of errors' (emanating from Laplace or Poincare or?another mathematcian). All readings of poem are slightly off/wrong, yet taken as a group?and plotted as a whole set, the 'mean reading' will become evident as the best result and thus point to?the poem in?its perfect state. How this is done?in?the real world of literary judgment is not?well known.?? Finnegan? -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox Sent: Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? I was dealing with the idea of ?self literacy? not as a term (I don?t like the terminology necessarily, but it?s far better than ?creative writing,? language only a bureaucrat or drill sergeant could love) but as an idea. We speak about ?musical literacy,? ?mathematical literacy? (wherewith Bob would take a rich pot of red ink to the lot of us), etc., as types of literacy. I was thinking of ?self-literacy? more on a scale, though it may well be a type as well. (I?ll avoid diving into the toxicity of dialectical thin king.) I?d said of our local paper, The Daily Advertiser, that one needn?t be literate to read it, in fact one need barely be able to chew. We might easily think of a scale of literacy, from being unable to recognize your own name to, say, speed reading Finnigan?s Wake while playing four master games of chess consecutively. Whatever. (Educators and neuro-linguists have words for this.) I found it ironic that many people (writers) for whom a high level of literacy is central to their world seem incapable of judging their own work. Is that interesting? Now the issue of who?s to tell . . .? Hmmm. Another story. And one that gives, perhaps, under-considered weight to the epistemological over the intuitive or ontological. Hmmm. I like what Bob said. That many people have picked the same poems as he would as his best. (That is not my experience, necessarily, except I could say my best reader, a fine writer, sees the same things as I do in both our works and usually in the works of others.) But need we have that objectivity machine screaming in our ears to the detriment of sounding ourselves in as honest a manner as possible? Might the idea of accurately appraising one?s own work be worth an important place in our thinking without being totally distracted by a hall-monitor issue? _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090713/69facb0f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 08:53:22 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Film Journal Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907140553l7ed4932eu7b097ef40524a76e@mail.gmail.com> Hybridity, Borders and Margins in English-speaking Cinema ? First issue of FILM JOURNAL The 2009 issue of FILM JOURNAL, a new online journal with a distinguished advisory board, will go online in fall 2009. The theme of this issue is ?Hybridity, Borders and Margins in English-speaking Cinema.? We would particularly welcome contributions from Americanists. If you think you would be interested in submitting an article, please contact the two editors: melvynstokes@hotmail.com and Gilles.Menegaldo@univ-poitiers.fr The final deadline for submissions is 30 September 2009. For more information, see the journal website: www.ucl.ac.uk/silva/filmjournal -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/c10e791f/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Jul 14 10:18:33 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [Mfa-alum] MassPOP Seeking Applicants for Poet Residency Program In-Reply-To: <683e6faf229d16df898bf9bd0716ab0a.21547@e2ma.net> References: <683e6faf229d16df898bf9bd0716ab0a.21547@e2ma.net> Message-ID: <8CBD2A51A73F1BA-F50-956@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: mfapoetsandwriters@hfa.umass.edu To: mfa-alum@english.umass.edu Sent: Tue, Jul 14, 2009 9:31 am Subject: [Mfa-alum] MassPOP Seeking Applicants for Poet Residency Program This email was forwarded to mfa-alum@english.umass.edu by mfapoetsandwriters@hfa.umass.edu By receiving this message as a forward, you have not subscribed to future emails from this sender. If you wish to, click here to sign up. If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online. Dear Poets & Poetry Supporters, The Mass Poetry Outreach Project (MassPOP), the founding organization of the Massachusetts Poetry Festival, is pleased to announce the creation of what we hope is the first of many poetry outreach programs in Massachusetts. This fall, MassPOP will be coordinating a yearlong poet residency program for two poets that will serve the North Allston-Brighton area. This program will be composed of intensive teaching sessions at the Gardner Pilot Academy elementary school, a reading series at the Honan-Allston Library, and a partnership with a local letterpress studio, Firefly Press, in the creation of a commemorative printed product for students and the community.The program was made possible by a grant from the Harvard-Allston Partnership Fund and the BRA. We are now accepting applications for these two poet residencies in the North Allston-Brighton area. Each poet would work in the Gardner Pilot Academy elementary school for an intensive teaching period of three weeks either in the 4th grade in the fall of 2009 or the 5th grade in the spring of 2010. The ideal candidate would have a demonstrated dedication to the practice of poetry, high artistic merit, and teaching experience. They will be responsible for designing and implementing each class, for meeting and planning with the classroom teacher, as well as attending a training session with the coordinator for a total of 30 hours teaching time plus training/meeting time. Resident poets will be awarded a stipend of $2,500, a reading at the Honan-Allston library, and a commemorative broadside. Applicants should submit a cover letter detailing their artistic, teaching and multicultural experience, a resume, names and contact information of two references, and a five page writing sample by August 7th, 2009. Materials may be sent by email to: chloe@masspoetry.org. ? Massachusetts Poetry Festival http://masspoetry.org/ Office of Cultural Affairs & Special Events 375 Merrimack Street, Lowell, MA 01852 powered by _______________________________________________ Mfa-alum mailing list Mfa-alum@english.umass.edu https://list.umass.edu/mailman/listinfo/mfa-alum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/a84f796e/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Jul 14 10:27:07 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliot's refuge Message-ID: <8CBD2A64D551ED2-F50-9F2@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/8149342.stm Leading literary figures are calling for a seaside shelter in Kent, in which the poet TS Eliot sat, to be preserved. The Nayland Rock shelter on Margate seafront is where he went in 1921 while recovering from a nervous breakdown. He composed one of his most famous works, The Waste Land, in the shelter, which is the subject of an application for protection as a listed building. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/5faa31cd/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Jul 14 11:01:33 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kimiko Hahn, The Poetry of Science Message-ID: <8CBD2AB1C32662F-F50-C92@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/ July 14, 2009, 8:00 am The Poetry of Science By David Corcoran Kimiko Hahn is the author of eight collections of poetry, Distinguished Professor of creative writing at Queens College, celebrated for work that is at once ?sensual, lyrical, heartbreaking, intellectual and political.? So why are we writing about her on TierneyLab? Because that eighth collection, ?Toxic Flora,? to be published by Norton in 2010, is filled with poems inspired by articles in Science Times. ?I?m kind of a nut about clipping articles, a bit of a magpie,? she told me the other day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/2a548f9e/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Jul 14 11:10:20 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kimiko Hahn, The Poetry of Science In-Reply-To: <8CBD2AB1C32662F-F50-C92@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD2AB1C32662F-F50-C92@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A5C9FDC.90009@opus40.org> C. P. Snow would be proud. jforjames@aol.com wrote: > http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/ > > July 14, 2009, 8:00 am > The Poetry of Science > By David Corcoran > > Kimiko Hahn is the author of eight collections of poetry, > Distinguished Professor of creative writing at Queens College, > celebrated for work that is at once ?sensual, lyrical, heartbreaking, > intellectual and political.? So why are we writing about her on > TierneyLab? > > Because that eighth collection, ?Toxic Flora,? to be published by > Norton in 2010, is filled with poems inspired by articles in Science > Times. > ?I?m kind of a nut about clipping articles, a bit of a magpie,? she > told me the other day. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames at aol.com Tue Jul 14 13:06:24 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ruth Stone reviewed on Guardian site Message-ID: <8CBD2BC8D2E25CE-F50-13D2@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/11/ruth-stone-what-love-comes Frances Leviston The Guardian, Saturday 11 July 2009 What Love Comes To : New & Selected Poems by Ruth Stone 384pp , Bloodaxe, ?12? In "Connections", one of the new poems in this absorbing New and Selected, Ruth Stone describes the process of making those leaps that are central to her work: how the eye sees something that passes into the brain "Packet by packet / Along the ledge over the abyss / Between the lobes" to come back "freighted with the universe". This gives some suggestion of the scale on which Stone has been working for the past 50 years: at one end, something as tangible as a spider's web; at the other, the entire cosmos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/122b3455/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:52:06 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kimiko Hahn, The Poetry of Science In-Reply-To: <8CBD2AB1C32662F-F50-C92@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD2AB1C32662F-F50-C92@WEBMAIL-DZ14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Siri Von Reis already did that in The Love-Suicides at Sonezaki (Zoo Press, 2001). > > Because that eighth collection, ?Toxic Flora,? to be published by Norton in > 2010, is filled with poems inspired by articles in Science Times. > ?I?m kind of a nut about clipping articles, a bit of a magpie,? she told me > the other day. > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Jul 14 15:55:34 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? In-Reply-To: <8CBD2351D47E9D9-ED0-123@WEBMAIL-MA03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Law of Errors is lovely, like a blossom, the opening of a scope. I love real theory, the kind that feels like it has roots. And as theory, it's one view of what might be going on, and there seem to be as many as times of considerations, and even then they seem protean, alive. Our views (mine unformed but implied, yours with the lovely "plotted" "mean reading") are not mutually exclusive. Congruence can imply an umbilicus, a portal of agreements, a conduit through which many see(m) the same. Of course "sameness" is a construct itself, as Perry and Lord have shown with epic singers prior to the industrial revolution, if I remember a grad school reading, in the first chapter ofThe Singer of Tales, wasn't it? Again, I'm not so worried about an epistemology (though there is that, as they say) at the expense my own intuitive knowing/being. My "lying eyes," as they say. Thinking things out for and thru myself. Always sounding, even late in the day. If it sounds coy or flip, I'm sorry. But I'm a radical intuitionalist. "First thought . . . already too late," "Cut twice and then measure," etc. Ginsberg seems like a CPA, and so forth. skip -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 7:57 PM To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? (That is not my experience, necessarily, except I could say my best reader, a fine writer, sees the same things as I do in both our works and usually in the works of others.) - Skip, that's an experience of the concept of the 'ideal reader'. I don't think we should expect congruent attention as a matter of course. I do believe in the 'law of errors' (emanating from Laplace or Poincare or another mathematcian). All readings of poem are slightly off/wrong, yet taken as a group and plotted as a whole set, the 'mean reading' will become evident as the best result and thus point to the poem in its perfect state. How this is done in the real world of literary judgment is not well known. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox Sent: Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Self-literacy. An interesting concept? I was dealing with the idea of "self literacy" not as a term (I don't like the terminology necessarily, but it's far better than "creative writing," language only a bureaucrat or drill sergeant could love) but as an idea. We speak about "musical literacy," "mathematical literacy" (wherewith Bob would take a rich pot of red ink to the lot of us), etc., as types of literacy. I was thinking of "self-literacy" more on a scale, though it may well be a type as well. (I'll avoid diving into the toxicity of dialectical thinking.) I'd said of our local paper, The Daily Advertiser, that one needn't be literate to read it, in fact one need barely be able to chew. We might easily think of a scale of literacy, from being unable to recognize your own name to, say, speed reading Finnigan's Wake while playing four master games of chess consecutively. Whatever. (Educators and neuro-linguists have words for this.) I found it ironic that many people (writers) for whom a high level of literacy is central to their world seem incapable of judging their own work. Is that interesting? Now the issue of who's to tell . . . Hmmm. Another story. And one that gives, perhaps, under-considered weight to20the epistemological over the intuitive or ontological. Hmmm. I like what Bob said. That many people have picked the same poems as he would as his best. (That is not my experience, necessarily, except I could say my best reader, a fine writer, sees the same things as I do in both our works and usually in the works of others.) But need we have that objectivity machine screaming in our ears to the detriment of sounding ourselves in as honest a manner as possible? Might the idea of accurately appraising one's own work be worth an important place in our thinking without being totally distracted by a hall-monitor issue? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____ Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090714/3dcd263f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 07:44:38 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Urban dictionary Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907150444p7f2bc4e7r799980c1ab261b5a@mail.gmail.com> I just bumped into this one: http://www.urbandictionary.com/popular.php?character=A -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090715/8ac2e6eb/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 12:34:06 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907150934v12e6b5e4x80bac770803d9c37@mail.gmail.com> I would like to read the following article on The Muse, but by now my access has expired, is there anybody who does have one be so kind to copy and send it to me? http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/paj/v021/21.1allsopp.html I thank you very much. My email address: anny.ballardini@gmail.com -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090715/df52b0d2/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Wed Jul 15 13:17:29 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907150934v12e6b5e4x80bac770803d9c37@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70907150934v12e6b5e4x80bac770803d9c37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Coming to you privately! c On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I would like to read the following article on The Muse, but by now my access > has expired, is there anybody who does have one be so kind to copy and send > it to me? > http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/paj/v021/21.1allsopp.html > > I thank you very much. My email address: > anny.ballardini@gmail.com > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 15 13:30:53 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBD38923BEBE98-7C8-86B@webmail-dx02.sysops.aol.com> http://spdtoday.blogspot.com/2009/07/spd-poetry-bestsellers-mayjune-2009.html -----Original Message----- From: Clay@spdbooks.org To: jforjames@aol.com Sent: Tue, Jul 14, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 Here is the magic link. -- If you do not want to receive any more emails, this link To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link Forward a Message to Someone this link -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 13:55:04 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:53:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70907150934v12e6b5e4x80bac770803d9c37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907151055t3abe1edajdc9645062d411528@mail.gmail.com> THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH! Anny On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > Coming to you privately! > > c > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Anny > Ballardini wrote: > > > > I would like to read the following article on The Muse, but by now my > access > > has expired, is there anybody who does have one be so kind to copy and > send > > it to me? > > http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/paj/v021/21.1allsopp.html > > > > I thank you very much. My email address: > > anny.ballardini@gmail.com > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090715/3f5fc8d6/attachment.html From editor at pavementsaw.org Wed Jul 15 16:14:28 2009 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kimiko Hahn, The Poetry of Science In-Reply-To: <200907151600.n6FG05rO006422@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <812038.59634.qm@web45603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> But Zoo Press is out of business and so few copies made it out the door it will be like a whole new experience first appearing from Norton. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > Siri Von Reis already did that in The Love-Suicides at > Sonezaki (Zoo > Press, 2001). > > > > > > Because that eighth collection, ?Toxic Flora,? to > be published by Norton in > > 2010, is filled with poems inspired by articles in > Science Times. > > ?I?m kind of a nut about clipping articles, a bit > of a magpie,? she told me > > the other day. > > > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > From jforjames at aol.com Wed Jul 15 16:23:10 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Suheir Hammad on SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 In-Reply-To: <8CBD38923BEBE98-7C8-86B@webmail-dx02.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD38923BEBE98-7C8-86B@webmail-dx02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBD3A134CA4A70-15F0-A9C@WEBMAIL-DF10.sysops.aol.com> I noticed on this bestsellers list, 2 of top 4 places were held by Suheir Hammad, a poet new to me.?Here are few poems & clips?I found online... http://www.thescreamonline.com/poetry/poetry2-1/hammad/ http://www.cypherbooks.org/pr/gallery.html http://www.arabworldbooks.com/Literature/poetry15.htm She was part of the Def Poetry Jam circuit. -- Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 http://spdtoday.blogspot.com/2009/07/spd-poetry-bestsellers-mayjune-2009.html -----Original Message----- From: Clay@spdbooks.org To: jforjames@aol.com Sent: Tue, Jul 14, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 Here is the magic link. -- If you do not want to receive any more emails, this link To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link Forward a Message to Someone this link Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From chris at chrislott.org Wed Jul 15 16:59:44 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD POETRY BESTSELLERS MAY/JUNE 09 In-Reply-To: <8CBD38923BEBE98-7C8-86B@webmail-dx02.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD38923BEBE98-7C8-86B@webmail-dx02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I know it's very quietist or quietudionous or whatever the latest term is, but I was happy to see Sherman Alexie has a newish book out. Anyone read it? c From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Jul 15 18:08:00 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Guest edited by Amy King Message-ID: <652840.42308.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Guest edited by Amy King ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? ? Featuring work by: ? Diana Adams Cynthia Arrieu-King with Hillary Gravendyk Anny Ballardini ??????? Jeanne Marie Beaumont Dan Boehl ???? Alexander Dickow Linh Dinh ????? Tomas Ekstr?m Erica Miriam Fabri ??? Farrah Field Adam Fieled ? Annie Finch Ossian Foley ? Jennifer H. Fortin Maya Funaro Heather Green Niels Hav, trans. by P. K. Brask & Patrick Friesen Scott Hightower Dan Hoy ?????? Dorta Jagi?, trans. by Ana Bo?i?evi? Amy King ????? Tony Mancus Nicholas Manning ???? Miguel Murphy Gina Myers ?? Keith Newton Obododimma Oha ??? Daniela Olszewska Maya Pindyck ????????? Matthew Rotando Toma? ?alamun, trans. with Michael Thomas Taren ??????? Barry Schwabsky Evie Shockley ????????? Lytton Smith Sampson Starkweather ????? Rohith Sundararaman Chris Vitiello ? David Wolach ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? Future issues forthcoming curated by Pam Brown and Alan Halsey.? Also special theme issues, Oulipo, GLBT, Boston , Chicago?and Prague issues are in the works.? ? Please forward and enjoy responsibly.? ? ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090715/85612a98/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:26:37 2009 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kimiko Hahn, The Poetry of Science In-Reply-To: <812038.59634.qm@web45603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200907151600.n6FG05rO006422@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <812038.59634.qm@web45603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: or perhaps the journalists who strain after metaphors in the science pages of the NYT create a book of poetry each decade -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:23:01 2009 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] COMMENT ON OBAMA'S SPEECH IN GHANA -AFRICA DOESN'T NEED STRONG MEN BUT STRONG INSTITUTIONS Message-ID: <5908b9b20907151623l6d824e0ep80d44c7dd94a9cff@mail.gmail.com> *Obama?s Relevant Grasp* *of Africa?s Economically Pedestrian Democracies * *BY GBEMI TIJANI MST* LAST SATURDAY IN ACCRA President Barack Obama of the USA rightly said that Africa does not need strong men rather than strong institutions in the continent.This is a good observation of Africa's deteriorating political physiology since the post independence upheavals,coup d'etas ,military interventions and prolonged inpunity contrary to their initial matial announcements.Yes we do know that politics control everything on planet earth since Jesus 's Herodian time.Even when democratic power were regained via elections - vestiges of military -civilian politicians and chronicity of inordinate corruption make good governance and populist dividends elusive.However I opine the indefinitely postponable Canaan was also partly due to unpatriotic advisers as well aspoor human rights literacy in AFRICA.Consequently there 's always an impotent opposition as well as party monopoly despite -almost ONE PARTY IDENTITY actively dominating beyond a1st -term locus of power notwithstanding a mega party coalition! Nigeria had alomst 50 parties aspiring to put up a president prior to the 1999 election.Gradually this was lanced to about 19 & 12 prior to the 2003 & 2007 elections respectively.A needless poverty & subrule hasnot been fully bountiful let alone peaceful.The players have always been mixed -majority of recurring old politicians,their sons or grandsons and same recycled technocrats and military - turned politicians dominating the top tenure of presidency. In Nigeria - only few candidates that have passed through the priimaries were not military!Almost all candidates that have been contesting for ppresidency in the past10 years were ex - military heads of state -except the current Head of State,President Umaru Musa Yaraduah who's a ,former chemistry lecturer.Assuming elections are comparatively not perfect too elsewhere in advanced democracies -the African experience under post military tenure sequel to avalanche of coups hasn't been a fulfilling change though the leeches licking voraciously from these maximum malevolent rulers willsurely opine otherwise.Yet the global world economic indicators and each country's volume of trade earnings and per capital indices will reflect each state standard of living! Economic measurability prior to and through the global melt down cannot be hidden too long from the world economic assessors and the STOCK MARKET. Candidly speaking Africa's needless poverty or hitherto subsistent living is actuated by the perennial vulnerability of her democracies in the hands of. strong mafia rather than strong institutions that should have civically encourage participation and inspire endogenous development priorities.Obama didn't get it wrong. Soonest - avalanche of civic related non - profits including CRAIG ZELIZER 's social network initiative will presently intervene into this commonplace democratic robbery. As AFRICANS say the real owners of power will lick dividends expected from due political process and the thief will be caught JUST ON E BLESSED DAY!. The global climate of concern in CITIZEN PARTICIPATION AUGURS WELL AND PHILOSOPHICALLY WEALTHY to realize emancipation from this latent post colonial slavery. Though of course one possible guess of the secrets of positive outcome in their strategic designs for peace actions is partly due to their grasp of the roots of the problem ?mainly Human Rights neglect here or there and their mutuality of trainer - learner role reversal. Truly no egghead can theorize perfectly the sufferings of their clientele without the victims input.Todays experts are speedily learning effective participatory models testable locally as a continuing linking for global studies. I ?m optimistic of a world of effective living ?nearly egalitarian ?not exactly utopia Even Nigeria too will sonn wear a new aura ovelopment garment. This then it will be possible to remember to go on vacation to prevent psychological suffocation of the low & the high -in public & private work settings. As the scripture said each of the gifts endowed to us is for the benefit of all. Another fundamental issue is the problem of apathy to civic duties of Africans -Nigerians inclusive -especially the phobia of elections due to the military presence or outright intimidation. I doff my hat for Dr Kingsley M. of Sogas Strategies for describing this incongruous practice as lethal. Yes call it a civil virus. GBEMI TIJANI MST 15uly ,09 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/e7c3522c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 06:44:03 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Guest edited by Amy King In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907160344w196738d3g8bcf93f1cb9df309@mail.gmail.com> >From our own untiring Amy King, and I am happy and proud to say that I also have a couple of lines there: Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Guest edited by Amy King http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ Cover art by Orna Ben Shoshan Featuring work by: Diana Adams Cynthia Arrieu-King with Hillary Gravendyk Anny Ballardini Jeanne Marie Beaumont Dan Boehl Alexander Dickow Linh Dinh Tomas Ekstr?m Erica Miriam Fabri Farrah Field Adam Fieled Annie Finch Ossian Foley Jennifer H. Fortin Maya Funaro Heather Green Niels Hav, trans. by P. K. Brask & Patrick Friesen Scott Hightower Dan Hoy Dorta Jagi?, trans. by Ana Bo?i?evi? Amy King Tony Mancus Nicholas Manning Miguel Murphy Gina Myers Keith Newton Obododimma Oha Daniela Olszewska Maya Pindyck Matthew Rotando Toma? ?alamun, trans. with Michael Thomas Taren Barry Schwabsky Evie Shockley Lytton Smith Sampson Starkweather Rohith Sundararaman Chris Vitiello David Wolach http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ Future issues forthcoming curated by Pam Brown and Alan Halsey. Also special theme issues, Oulipo, GLBT, Boston , Chicago and Prague issues are in the works. Please forward and enjoy responsibly. http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/9f68021d/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 16 13:00:16 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Salt Message-ID: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> Troubles Swapped for Something Fresh http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/anth/9781844714711.htm now out from Salt, edited by Rupert Loydell, an anthology of 'Manifestos and Unmanifestos', including the likes of Peter Finch, Jackson MacLow, Sheila E Murphy, Scott Thurston, Nick Piombino, Alan Halsey, Gavin Selerie, Mario Petrucci and even me. Plus my late friend Brian Fewster who died without knowing of his inclusion. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/fde6d067/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 13:36:40 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Salt In-Reply-To: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> References: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907161036h18dbc938k85b4fedfcfbb885a@mail.gmail.com> Bravo! On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 7:00 PM, David Bircumshaw < david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > Troubles Swapped for Something Fresh > > http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/anth/9781844714711.htm > now out from > Salt, edited by Rupert Loydell, an anthology of 'Manifestos and > Unmanifestos', including the likes of Peter Finch, Jackson MacLow, Sheila E > Murphy, Scott Thurston, Nick Piombino, Alan Halsey, Gavin Selerie, Mario > Petrucci and even me. Plus my late friend Brian Fewster who died without > knowing of his inclusion. > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/5813041d/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 16 14:27:39 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dr. Kenneth Gorelick obit Message-ID: <8CBD45A3C3C6D94-838-3B83@WEBMAIL-MB18.sysops.aol.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/18/AR2009061803735.html At St. Elizabeths, he became interested in the use of literature, particularly poetry, as therapy. With Sister Arlene Hynes, he set up the first standardized training curriculum for poetry therapy, founded the Bibliotherapy Training Program at St. Elizabeths and served as its co-director and clinical supervisor. Dr. Gorelick was the director of continuing medical education for the D.C. Commission on Mental Health Services for 20 years, until 1999. He also co-directed the National Association for Poetry Therapy's Wordsworth Center for Poetry Therapy Training from 1994 to 2007 He was fascinated by the history of the nation's first federally funded mental health hospital. He founded its historical museum and often lectured on the topic, telling one workshop in 2005 that "St. Elizabeths was bedeviled by having to do too much for too many with too little." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/0aeefa3c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 14:45:06 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dr. Kenneth Gorelick obit In-Reply-To: <8CBD45A3C3C6D94-838-3B83@WEBMAIL-MB18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD45A3C3C6D94-838-3B83@WEBMAIL-MB18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907161145y68878c6bo5ca7f0209c9cd974@mail.gmail.com> Poor man, pax vobiscum On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:27 PM, wrote: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/18/AR2009061803735.html > > At St. Elizabeths, he became interested in the use of literature, > particularly poetry, as therapy. With Sister Arlene Hynes, he set up the > first standardized training curriculum for poetry therapy, founded the > Bibliotherapy Training Program at St. Elizabeths and served as its > co-director and clinical supervisor. Dr. Gorelick was the director of > continuing medical education for the D.C. Commission on Mental Health > Services for 20 years, until 1999. He also co-directed the National > Association for Poetry Therapy's Wordsworth Center for Poetry Therapy > Training from 1994 to 2007 > > He was fascinated by the history of the nation's first federally funded > mental health hospital. He founded its historical museum and often lectured > on the topic, telling one workshop in 2005 that "St. Elizabeths was > bedeviled by having to do too much for too many with too little." > > ------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/3f488447/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 16 15:11:44 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Failed to Include In-Reply-To: <652840.42308.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <994629.28053.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Cover art credit:? Orna Ben Shoshan, "The Burden of Happiness" --- On Wed, 7/15/09, amy king wrote: Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Guest edited by Amy King ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? ? Featuring work by: ? Diana Adams Cynthia Arrieu-King with Hillary Gravendyk Anny Ballardini ??????? Jeanne Marie Beaumont Dan Boehl ???? Alexander Dickow Linh Dinh ????? Tomas Ekstr?m Erica Miriam Fabri ??? Farrah Field Adam Fieled ? Annie Finch Ossian Foley ? Jennifer H. Fortin Maya Funaro Heather Green Niels Hav, trans. by P. K. Brask & Patrick Friesen Scott Hightower Dan Hoy ?????? Dorta Jagi?, trans. by Ana Bo?i?evi? Amy King ????? Tony Mancus Nicholas Manning ???? Miguel Murphy Gina Myers ?? Keith Newton Obododimma Oha ??? Daniela Olszewska Maya Pindyck ????????? Matthew Rotando Toma? ?alamun, trans. with Michael Thomas Taren ??????? Barry Schwabsky Evie Shockley ????????? Lytton Smith Sampson Starkweather ????? Rohith Sundararaman Chris Vitiello ? David Wolach ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? Future issues forthcoming curated by Pam Brown and Alan Halsey.? Also special theme issues, Oulipo, GLBT, Boston , Chicago?and Prague issues are in the works.? ? Please forward and enjoy responsibly.? ? ? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ ? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/42d61b25/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 16 15:11:58 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prime Time Poetry Message-ID: <8CBD4606D000BD9-16F4-1047@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> On Plumbline School blog, Tom Hunley's proposes an anthology... http://theplumblineschool.blogspot.com/2009/06/modest-book-proposal-norton-anthology.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/1a8fb1f0/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Jul 16 15:34:34 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Salt In-Reply-To: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> References: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <8CBD463952FFB1C-16F4-1173@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> Congrats, David. Poetry magazine has been paying attention to the manifesto too... Storming the Museum of IrrelevanceHas the manifesto outlived its usefulness? by Robert Archambeau http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/article.html?id=236880 Poetry Can Be Any Damn Thing It Wants Introduction to a collection of eight manifestos commemorating the centennial of Italian futurists. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/article.html?id=182834 FEB 2009 issue with 8 manifestos... http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/toc.html?issue=1141 Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Bircumshaw Sent: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Salt Troubles Swapped for Something Fresh http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/anth/9781844714711.htm now out from Salt, edited by Rupert Loydell, an anthology of 'Manifestos and Unmanifestos', including the likes of Peter Finch, Jackson MacLow, Sheila E Murphy, Scott Thurston, Nick Piombino, Alan Halsey, Gavin Selerie, Mario Petrucci and even me. Plus my late friend Brian Fewster who died without knowing of his inclusion. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/9cc0b953/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:09:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prime Time Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CBD4606D000BD9-16F4-1047@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD4606D000BD9-16F4-1047@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907161309m7a6324e9uc1411e42de58fdcf@mail.gmail.com> I agree with his choice of David Graham, Tony Hoagland, Bob Holman, Robert Pinsky, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Bob Dylan, ans several more, and then I would add my favorite poets, On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:11 PM, wrote: > On Plumbline School blog, Tom Hunley's proposes an anthology... > > http://theplumblineschool.blogspot.com/2009/06/modest-book-proposal-norton-anthology.html > > > > ------------------------------ > Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you > trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets > ! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/9558e31d/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Jul 16 17:39:21 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Events / Calendars -- complete but ... Message-ID: <279836.86494.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The permanent link for the Poetry Events / Calendars is here: http://amyking.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/poetry-events-calendars/ However, I will add the calendar to at least two more online venues such as Red Room and Goodreads, and perhaps others, once the calendar is a little more filled out.? I don't have time at the moment, but it seems there are a few major cities and small town series that have been omitted.? Please feel free to backchannel addt'l suggestions or post them in the comments to be added to the list.? Once I've added more over the next few days, I'll duplicate the listing for others who don't venture to my blog. Thanks to all who chipped in and provided links!? Hopefully this resource will serve those on the hunt for live poetry for a long time! Best, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/46418c78/attachment.html From locriansky at yahoo.com Thu Jul 16 21:43:00 2009 From: locriansky at yahoo.com (locriansky@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Failed to Include In-Reply-To: <994629.28053.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <994629.28053.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <985681.90186.qm@web112511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> That is a wonderful image! It belongs in the AVAM in Baltimore. Kaz ________________________________ From: amy king To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:11:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- Failed to Include Cover art credit:? Orna Ben Shoshan, "The Burden of Happiness" --- On Wed, 7/15/09, amy king wrote: > >Special Issue of Ekleksographia -- >Guest edited by Amy King >? >http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ >? >? >Featuring work by: >? >Diana Adams >Cynthia Arrieu-King with Hillary Gravendyk >Anny Ballardini ??????? >Jeanne Marie Beaumont >Dan Boehl ???? >Alexander Dickow >Linh Dinh ????? >Tomas Ekstr?m >Erica Miriam Fabri ??? >Farrah Field >Adam Fieled ? >Annie Finch >Ossian Foley ? >Jennifer H. Fortin >Maya Funaro >Heather Green >Niels Hav, trans. by P. K. Brask & Patrick Friesen >Scott Hightower >Dan Hoy ?????? >Dorta Jagi?, trans. by Ana Bo?i?evi? >Amy King ????? >Tony Mancus >Nicholas Manning ???? >Miguel Murphy >Gina Myers ?? >Keith Newton >Obododimma Oha ??? >Daniela Olszewska >Maya Pindyck ????????? >Matthew Rotando >Toma? ?alamun, trans. with Michael Thomas Taren ??????? >Barry Schwabsky >Evie Shockley ????????? >Lytton Smith >Sampson Starkweather ????? >Rohith Sundararaman >Chris Vitiello ? >David Wolach >? >http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ >? >Future issues forthcoming curated by Pam Brown and Alan Halsey.? Also special theme issues, Oulipo, GLBT, Boston , Chicago?and Prague issues are in the works.? >? >Please forward and enjoy responsibly.? >? >? http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/issuetwo/ >? > >_______ > >Amy's Alias >http://amyking.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090716/64600377/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 17 06:02:53 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Salt References: <4B4E59B70CFA4900B4EB25BD9794EE4D@SN037832120162> <8CBD463952FFB1C-16F4-1173@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: thank you James, Anny It's a rather attractively designed book, my copy came in the same post as the 4th edition of Tom Phillips' 'A Humument' and the New Directions' 'For the Fighting Spirit of the Walnut' so it was in rather good company. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/700cc228/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 11:32:46 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Obama urges 'new black mindset' Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907170832r3761a7a3l5157d9ed0aa5d793@mail.gmail.com> ' No one has written your destiny for you - your destiny is in your hands ? Barack Obama "Government programmes alone won't get our children to the promised land - we need a new mindset, a new set of attitudes," he said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8155077.stm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/e4b56334/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jul 17 12:24:34 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Prime Time Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70907161309m7a6324e9uc1411e42de58fdcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBD4606D000BD9-16F4-1047@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70907161309m7a6324e9uc1411e42de58fdcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3632B811-D8CC-44D9-9D5A-27FAD8FE8A8E@ripon.edu> Well, David Graham wishes that his poetry, not just his ultra-talk essay, were mentioned, but it's nice to be noticed at all. Thanks, Anny! This Plumbline blog is well worth a look, if you haven't seen it. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I agree with his choice of David Graham, Tony Hoagland, Bob Holman, > Robert Pinsky, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Bob Dylan, ans several more, > and then I would add my favorite poets, > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:11 PM, wrote: > On Plumbline School blog, Tom Hunley's proposes an anthology... > http://theplumblineschool.blogspot.com/2009/06/modest-book-proposal- > norton-anthology.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/d6a013be/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 12:45:39 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Prime Time Poetry In-Reply-To: <3632B811-D8CC-44D9-9D5A-27FAD8FE8A8E@ripon.edu> References: <8CBD4606D000BD9-16F4-1047@webmail-db03.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70907161309m7a6324e9uc1411e42de58fdcf@mail.gmail.com> <3632B811-D8CC-44D9-9D5A-27FAD8FE8A8E@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907170945s48cb3e51r4f646ea6a594e369@mail.gmail.com> I wish he had noticed me for something... even for my curls, whatever... *A Norton Anthology for blond curls* On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 6:24 PM, David Graham wrote: > Well, David Graham wishes that his poetry, not just his ultra-talk essay, > were mentioned, but it's nice to be noticed at all. Thanks, Anny! > This Plumbline blog is well worth a look, if you haven't seen it. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I agree with his choice of David Graham, Tony Hoagland, Bob Holman, Robert > Pinsky, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Bob Dylan, ans several more, and then I would > add my favorite poets, > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:11 PM, wrote: > >> On Plumbline School blog, Tom Hunley's proposes an anthology... >> >> http://theplumblineschool.blogspot.com/2009/06/modest-book-proposal-norton-anthology.html >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/8343c3b9/attachment.html From me at johnathonwilliams.com Fri Jul 17 12:58:40 2009 From: me at johnathonwilliams.com (Johnathon Williams) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry Message-ID: Hi all, Over at Linebreak, we've just launched a new project that we're pretty excited about. Swindle is a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry. Every hour or so, it scrapes the RSS feeds from a dozen poetry publications and posts links to all of the new poems out there. Updates are automatic; the only human involvement is in the selection of the feeds that Swindle targets. Right now, sources include The New Yorker, Poetry Magazine, and From the Fishouse, to name just a few. The site also includes handy buttons for reposting links to Twitter, if you're in to that kind of thing. Links remain on the site for a week before shuffling into oblivion. In concept, I suppose it's a little like Google News, if Google News had been built by a frustrated poet with only insomnia and a three- year-old book about web programming to guide him. At any rate, your thoughts and suggestions are welcome. We're particularly eager to add more sites to Swindle's index. Any poetry publication that produces a valid RSS feed is welcome. See it here: http://linebreak.org/swindle/ -- Johnathon From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Jul 17 13:47:40 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A60B93C.9000702@opus40.org> This is very cool. Johnathon Williams wrote: > Hi all, > > Over at Linebreak, we've just launched a new project that we're pretty > excited about. Swindle is a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry. > Every hour or so, it scrapes the RSS feeds from a dozen poetry > publications and posts links to all of the new poems out there. > Updates are automatic; the only human involvement is in the selection > of the feeds that Swindle targets. > > Right now, sources include The New Yorker, Poetry Magazine, and From > the Fishouse, to name just a few. The site also includes handy buttons > for reposting links to Twitter, if you're in to that kind of thing. > Links remain on the site for a week before shuffling into oblivion. > > In concept, I suppose it's a little like Google News, if Google News > had been built by a frustrated poet with only insomnia and a > three-year-old book about web programming to guide him. > > At any rate, your thoughts and suggestions are welcome. We're > particularly eager to add more sites to Swindle's index. Any poetry > publication that produces a valid RSS feed is welcome. > > See it here: > > http://linebreak.org/swindle/ > > -- Johnathon > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 17 14:04:35 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is pretty sweet. Would be much sweeter if there were a web feed (RSS, etc) c On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Johnathon Williams wrote: > Hi all, > > Over at Linebreak, we've just launched a new project that we're pretty > excited about. Swindle is a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry. Every > hour or so, it scrapes the RSS feeds from a dozen poetry publications and > posts links to all of the new poems out there. Updates are automatic; the > only human involvement is in the selection of the feeds that Swindle > targets. > > Right now, sources include The New Yorker, Poetry Magazine, and From the > Fishouse, to name just a few. The site also includes handy buttons for > reposting links to Twitter, if you're in to that kind of thing. Links remain > on the site for a week before shuffling into oblivion. > > In concept, I suppose it's a little like Google News, if Google News had > been built by a frustrated poet with only insomnia and a three-year-old book > about web programming to guide him. > > At any rate, your thoughts and suggestions are welcome. We're particularly > eager to add more sites to Swindle's index. Any poetry publication that > produces a valid RSS feed is welcome. > > See it here: > > http://linebreak.org/swindle/ > > -- Johnathon > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 17 15:51:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > This is pretty sweet. Would be much sweeter if there were a web feed (RSS, etc) > > c > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Johnathon > Williams wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Over at Linebreak, we've just launched a new project that we're pretty >> excited about. Swindle is a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry. Every >> hour or so, it scrapes the RSS feeds from a dozen poetry publications and >> posts links to all of the new poems out there. Updates are automatic; the >> only human involvement is in the selection of the feeds that Swindle >> targets. >> >> Right now, sources include The New Yorker, Poetry Magazine, and From the >> Fishouse, to name just a few. Gosh, that's sure enough to excite me. But just so Jeff and Chris won't jump on me for negativity, here's some boilerplate of mine I still (however futilely) consider constructive: what we need is a list of the schools of poetry. If we had one that established names for the various contemporary poetries out there, then (1) ideas with potential like this one might actually do more than guide Wilshberians to poetry they're already being exposed to everywhere and more, and (2) allow this operation possibly to mount a superior search engine, or just a decent index, to help Wilshberians avoid interesting . . . oops, I was going to be nice--to help browsers to poetry they are likely to like BUT maybe also connect them to poetry they're ignorant of but which might, based on their tastes, appeal to them--for instance, someone who likes "The Red Wheelbarrow" might be directed to /Modern Haiku/ and from there to mildly unconventional haiku, and so forth until he ends up looking at one of my early visual or mathematical haiku (which aren't that unconventional). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/3c5cbe06/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 17 14:48:21 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tough economy -- insight? Message-ID: <940828.3116.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I've got a few friends -- poet friends -- who have recently suffered the "lay off" axe.? While I suspect this axe is wielded to make more profits for stockholders and management (didn't JP Morgan just pull in a huge unpredicted spike in profit this quarter?), I know the concrete reality is that my friends are suffering and may for some time to come.? Profit increases are fun to brag about and buy yachts with, but finding enough cash to feed the landlord isn't so pleasant.? So I'm asking:? what would you do?? Any job insight advice?? What work/markets are still available to these poets, many with college degrees?? Where do you seek listings friendly to the poetically-inclined?? Know of any work available in NY?? (Feel free to backchannel on that last question, for I have some astute poet friends ready, smart, and quite able) Just wondering.? And if you have any stories -- inspiring or otherwise -- please do share~ Thanks, Amy ? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/e13328cc/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Fri Jul 17 15:02:24 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob: In my full anti/non-intellectual glory, I don't see the productive relevance of creating a typology of schools w/r/t the composition of Swindle, perhaps because I've yet to see any system that comes close to providing any predictability regarding what matters to me: will I enjoy a poem or not. That being said, I think the fact that someone is making an effort to create such an aggregation is a Good Thing... what content should be there is a worthwhile discussion, but I'll just note that changing or adding to that doesn't demand that we all buy the typologies you are selling. If you look at the site, you will see that there is a mechanism for publications/sites to participate, including an address for recommending a site for inclusion... c c On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > This is pretty sweet. Would be much sweeter if there were a web feed (RSS, > etc) > > c > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Johnathon > Williams wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Over at Linebreak, we've just launched a new project that we're pretty > excited about. Swindle is a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry. Every > hour or so, it scrapes the RSS feeds from a dozen poetry publications and > posts links to all of the new poems out there. Updates are automatic; the > only human involvement is in the selection of the feeds that Swindle > targets. > > Right now, sources include The New Yorker, Poetry Magazine, and From the > Fishouse, to name just a few. > > Gosh, that's sure enough to excite me.? But just so Jeff and Chris won't > jump on me for negativity, here's some boilerplate of mine I still (however > futilely) consider constructive: what we need is a list of the schools of > poetry.? If we had one that established names for the various contemporary > poetries out there, then (1) ideas with potential like this one might > actually do more than guide Wilshberians to poetry they're already being > exposed to everywhere and more, and (2) allow this operation possibly to > mount a superior search engine, or just a decent index, to help Wilshberians > avoid interesting . . . oops, I was going to be nice--to help browsers to > poetry they are likely to like BUT maybe also connect them to poetry they're > ignorant of but which might, based on their tastes, appeal to them--for > instance, someone who likes "The Red Wheelbarrow" might be directed to > Modern Haiku and from there to mildly unconventional haiku, and so forth > until he ends up looking at one of my early visual or mathematical haiku > (which aren't that unconventional). > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 17 18:05:18 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A60F59E.6030804@nut-n-but.net> > If you look at the site, you will see that there is a mechanism for > publications/sites to participate, including an address for > recommending a site for inclusion... > I was sure there would be. Fine. But I think your attitude toward labeling is short-sighted--just because you don't know what kind of poetry you like doesn't mean that others don't, and would profit from knowing where to go to find it. It still seems to me that anyone seriously interested in contemporary American (or world) Poetry would welcome a map of the entire scene. Being sprayed by poems wouldn't be enough, especially if the sprayer was only spraying a narrow mix of poems which somehow seems always to be the case in ventures like this. Plus, once labels become established, they needn't be visible--that is, the program can use them without sullying the eyes of people like you. You, for instance, could say you like Sherman Alexis's stuff, the program would determine what school his stuff was in (or, better, what school the specific poem of his you liked was in) and send you a list of the ten thousand poets doing the same kind of thing (oops, I mean, send the names of poets doing similar things) without telling you what I or anyone else was calling it. Cross indexing by publisher would be a good step, I suppose, but that would be labeling unless you went no further. To make it useful, you'd have make some kind of connection between all the publications with /New Yorker/ poems in them, for instance. And some magazines would publish more than one kind of poetry, to complicate matters. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/2854a8a5/attachment.html From millb at aol.com Fri Jul 17 17:31:09 2009 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chapbook news Message-ID: <8CBD53D08B0738C-3194-277A9@webmail-stg-m05.sysops.aol.com> Greetings, I am putting together a mailing list for my upcoming chapbook (which will be out in the very far future) and a few people mentioned that they would like to receive an?announcement.? If you are interested or know others who would be interested, please send mailing addresses to me?(back channel) in the next couple of days. Thanks ever so much. Millicent MillB@aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090717/a880b90c/attachment.html From Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu Sat Jul 18 09:35:42 2009 From: Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu (Sigauke, Emmanuel) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Issue of Munyori Lit Journal Message-ID: <8AB6AE105E0CE34EA7047DA0D6F0A971210AD88ED6@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> http://munyori.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 10:50:59 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bridging African through Economics - and - Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders Message-ID: <4b65c2d70907180750u2dc77d5fk1f7b85cc0935fd4c@mail.gmail.com> *Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders* *Next Weeklong Seminar * *Berlin, 14th ? 18th September, 2009* * * I am writing to announce the dates of two forthcoming programs being organised by the Institute for Cultural Diplomacy in Berlin this summer. ?*Bridging African through Economics*? will bring together participants from across the world to consider the role of economic interdependence in strengthening intercultural relations within the African continent and between Africa and other regions. The forthcoming Weeklong Seminar for ?*Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders*? will bring together individuals interested in exploring and supporting the European-Latin American relationship, and considering the role that cultural diplomacy can play in this process. I would be grateful if you could forward the text underneath this email to any students who you feel may be interested in attending. Kind regards, *Katharina M?ller* Managing Director Institute for Cultural Diplomacy (ICD) Keithstr?. 14 Berlin, Germany - 10787 Phone: 00.49.(0)30.2360-7680 Fax: 00.49.(0)30.2360-76811 cda@culturaldiplomacy.org www.culturaldiplomacy.org *Call for Applications* * * *Cultural Diplomacy in Africa: A Forum for Young Leaders* *?Bridging Africa through Economics?* *Berlin, 17th ? 21st August, 2009* * * *Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders* *Next Weeklong Seminar* *Berlin, 14th ? 18th September, 2009* * * The Institute for Cultural Diplomacy is currently accepting applications to the programs outlined above, taking place this summer in Berlin. *?Bridging African through Economics*? will bring together participants from across the world to consider the role of economic interdependence in strengthening intercultural relations within the African continent and between Africa and other regions. The program will focus on the following themes: ? The relationship between economic interdependence and peace and stability ? The facilitation of cultural exchange through economic bridges ? The role of young leaders in strengthening and supporting economic bridges The forthcoming Weeklong Seminar for ?*Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders*? will bring together individuals interested in exploring and supporting the European-Latin American relationship, and considering the role that cultural diplomacy can play in this process. The following themes will be considered in detail: ? The Presentation of Latin American Culture in Europe ? Integration and Immigration in the European-Latin American Relationship ? Economic Bridges between European and Latin America *Who can apply?* The programs are open to students and young professionals with an active interest in international relations. *What will the programs involve?* The programs will consist of lectures, seminars, workshops, and cultural activities in and around Berlin. The participants will meet with leading figures from the political, diplomatic, academic and civil society spheres to discuss the issues outlined above. Cultural excursions and entertainment will be planned to allow the participants to network with each other and experience Berlin?s vibrant cultural landscape. *What happens after the programs?* After completing the programs participants become Forum members. They are then supported by the ICD in conducting research, in organising and developing leadership initiatives, and are invited to join the ICD Online Forum where they can network with the other Young Leaders from around the world. *Where can I find more information?* Further information about ?Bridging Africa through Economics?, the next Weeklong Seminar for ?Cultural Diplomacy in Africa: A Forum for Young Leaders? can be found under: www.culturaldiplomacy.org/cda Enquiries should be addressed to cda@culturaldiplomacy.org Further information about the forthcoming Weeklong Seminar for ?Europe Meets Latin America: A Forum for Young Leaders? can be found under: www.culturaldiplomacy.org/emla Enquiries should be addressed to emla@culturaldiplomacy.org We look forward to your contact, *William Hern**?**d * Managing Director Institute for Cultural Diplomacy (ICD) Keithstr?. 14 Berlin, Germany - 10787 Phone: 00.49.(0)30.2360-7680 Fax: 00.49.(0)30.2360-76811 emla@culturaldiplomacy.org www.culturaldiplomacy.org -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090718/5f4c514a/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun Jul 19 00:53:37 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: <4A60F59E.6030804@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> <4A60F59E.6030804@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob, if the label doesn't help me tell what it is, then it's *particularly* useless in helping me find it :) I would welcome a map of poetry if I held out any hope that it could work. Maybe I'll yet see the light. But for now I don't believe, any more than a map of Tlon or a map of the human heart. Nor do I think it's necessary. There's a kind of analogy in the current music scene on the web about which I feel similarly. There are two services out there (among many) that will recommend music: Pandora and Last.FM. Very roughly, because neither is wholly bound to one method: Pandora has created a catalog of characteristics it uses to categorize music and make recommendations for music similar to something that a user indicates they like. Last.FM relies much more on the web of what people have indicated they like, regardless of characteristics. For me, Pandors provides much more "accurate" results in some objective sense, but Last.FM with all its human messiness provides much more "interesting" results. Pandora's approach can, in a limited but very real fashion, point me to, essentially, more of the same. Which isn't a bad thing. But Last.FM can capture the fact that someone demonstrates a felt but unexplicated and perhaps inexplicable connection between Nick Drake and Black Sabbath, something Pandora-- and no amount of classification based on more or less objective characteristics can ever do. So with poetry and typologies based on characteristics rather than recommendations and parallels based on emotion and personal aesthetic responses... c On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > If you look at the site, you will see that there is a mechanism for > publications/sites to participate, including an address for > recommending a site for inclusion... > > > I was sure there would be.? Fine.? But I think your attitude toward labeling > is short-sighted--just because you don't know what kind of poetry you like > doesn't mean that others don't, and would profit from knowing where to go to > find it. > > It still seems to me that anyone seriously interested in contemporary > American (or world) Poetry would welcome a map of the entire scene.? Being > sprayed by poems wouldn't be enough, especially if the sprayer was only > spraying a narrow mix of poems which somehow seems always to be the case in > ventures like this. > > Plus, once labels become established, they needn't be visible--that is, the > program can use them without sullying the eyes of people like you.? You, for > instance, could say you like Sherman Alexis's stuff, the program would > determine what school his stuff was in (or, better, what school the specific > poem of his you liked was in) and send you a list of the ten thousand poets > doing the same kind of thing (oops, I mean, send the names of poets doing > similar things) without telling you what I or anyone else was calling it. > > Cross indexing by publisher would be a good step, I suppose, but that would > be labeling unless you went no further.? To make it useful, you'd have make > some kind of connection between all the publications with New Yorker poems > in them, for instance.? And some magazines would publish more than one kind > of poetry, to complicate matters. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jul 19 07:37:27 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net><4A60F59E.6030804@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A630577.40100@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Bob, if the label doesn't help me tell what it is, then it's > *particularly* useless in helping me find it :) > I guess I erred in sloppy . . . labeling. I should not have used the label, "label," but the label, "/defined/ label," to indicate what is needed. No, I should have used /effectively/ defined label." As for music, do you really not think pop versus classical are helpful labels, or folk versus jazz? In poetry, "visual poetry" versus "Wilshberian poetry" wouldn't help you? I fear I think you are crazy, Chris. You're really coming out against names, which is coming out against words, which is coming out against communication. > I would welcome a map of poetry if I held out any hope that it could > work. Maybe I'll yet see the light. But for now I don't believe, any > more than a map of Tlon or a map of the human heart. > > Nor do I think it's necessary. There's a kind of analogy in the > current music scene on the web about which I feel similarly. There are > two services out there (among many) that will recommend music: Pandora > and Last.FM. Very roughly, because neither is wholly bound to one > method: Pandora has created a catalog of characteristics it uses to > categorize music and make recommendations for music similar to > something that a user indicates they like. Last.FM relies much more on > the web of what people have indicated they like, regardless of > characteristics. For me, Pandors provides much more "accurate" results > in some objective sense, but Last.FM with all its human messiness > provides much more "interesting" results. Pandora's approach can, in a > limited but very real fashion, point me to, essentially, more of the > same. Which isn't a bad thing. But Last.FM can capture the fact that > someone demonstrates a felt but unexplicated and perhaps inexplicable > connection between Nick Drake and Black Sabbath, something Pandora-- > and no amount of classification based on more or less objective > characteristics can ever do. > I don't see why not. > So with poetry and typologies based on characteristics rather than > recommendations and parallels based on emotion and personal aesthetic > responses... > Aesthetic responses to what? I just can't see why if one thinks long enough, one can't pin down what it is about a poem he likes, or dislikes. But then I'm a different kind of intellectual than you are. --Bob > c > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> If you look at the site, you will see that there is a mechanism for >> publications/sites to participate, including an address for >> recommending a site for inclusion... >> >> >> I was sure there would be. Fine. But I think your attitude toward labeling >> is short-sighted--just because you don't know what kind of poetry you like >> doesn't mean that others don't, and would profit from knowing where to go to >> find it. >> >> It still seems to me that anyone seriously interested in contemporary >> American (or world) Poetry would welcome a map of the entire scene. Being >> sprayed by poems wouldn't be enough, especially if the sprayer was only >> spraying a narrow mix of poems which somehow seems always to be the case in >> ventures like this. >> >> Plus, once labels become established, they needn't be visible--that is, the >> program can use them without sullying the eyes of people like you. You, for >> instance, could say you like Sherman Alexis's stuff, the program would >> determine what school his stuff was in (or, better, what school the specific >> poem of his you liked was in) and send you a list of the ten thousand poets >> doing the same kind of thing (oops, I mean, send the names of poets doing >> similar things) without telling you what I or anyone else was calling it. >> >> Cross indexing by publisher would be a good step, I suppose, but that would >> be labeling unless you went no further. To make it useful, you'd have make >> some kind of connection between all the publications with New Yorker poems >> in them, for instance. And some magazines would publish more than one kind >> of poetry, to complicate matters. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090719/4894b445/attachment.html From pencha at mbe.ocn.ne.jp Sun Jul 19 07:02:20 2009 From: pencha at mbe.ocn.ne.jp (pencha) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] One poem by Walter Daniel Message-ID: <1248001340.5196.2.camel@Debian-Walter.aestas.net> Deep bellows, bells clanging billions, trillions so told agoing repeated, broken over rocks and sacrifices, tolling knells broken over sacrifices and sails, brilliant voices dead men had, commanding the silence, whispering in darkness, so courageous, brigades the sea frightens, howling in darkness moans for autumnal flowers, ancient deities awoken at midnight, console us, voiceless crying, mimetic dying, waves, the menacing sea Best wishes, Walter Daniel From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jul 19 09:52:23 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] And Michael Blumenthal Message-ID: <5956B1FA-6981-4CA9-BE1C-4181EE397A48@ripon.edu> In heavy rotation at my house lately is Michael Blumenthal's new collection titled *And*, from BOA Editions. Has anyone else caught up with this one? Blumenthal's yet another mid-career poet I long been aware of but not too familiar with, until this book caught my eye, by way of a recommendation from David Kirby. It's really worth a look. Every poem's title begins with the word "and," and the poems are long-lined, expansive, free-associative, overstuffed. They carry titles like "And the Deep Abraxas of the Hills Shall Love You Too" and "And the Whole Country Seems to Laughing. At God Only Knows What." The predictable parallels with Whitman are apt enough, and before that, with Old Testament poetry. Blumenthal's doing what so many contemporary poets in the wake of Whitman have attempted--April Bernard and Stan Rice spring to mind, along with Gerald Stern and others--seeking an ecstatic, visionary sort of poetry that is firmly grounded in the gritty and mundane. Sacred revelations in the parking lot or at the ball game, dark nights of the soul while watching late night TV. The poems are a lot less gauzily abstract, say, than Charles Wright's, but the spiritual craving seems the same, as are the sly humor and oddball moments. Here's Linda Gregerson's blurb: "Brazen, humble, sly, disarming, stalwart, sweet: conjunction's fine continuo. These large-hearted poems take an all-embracing "and" for both motto and creed. More life! they sing, even as they survey the major and minor wreckage life has dealt us. More life is what they generate too, unspooling lines as beautifully cadenced and sustained as any I know. This And is a gift. " -Linda Gregerson And here is a sample poem: And the Self That Was My Old Self Is Still Within Me But it is sleepy sleepy, has taken too many antibiotics, does not, on occasion, recognize its own face in the mirror, yet still agrees with Schopenhauer, that even this, the worst of all possible worlds, doesn?t exempt us from the obligation to put things beautifully, that stylistic perfection, too, is a source of gratification. So what if things are not the way they used to be, huge missteps taken in every direction, wrong choices, unlikely alliances, friends not in the higest of places, but usually the lowest? The dogwoods and Eastern redbuds, nonetheless, are flowering once more, I have been poked and proddeed for weeks, seeking to identify the source of maladies and maledictions, and nothing whatsoever has been found at the root of thing, I am merely my old self in an achier, sloppier version, en route to the usual destinies: Zhivago, lumbago, back pain, angina?gaze shimmying towards the obits, birds once identified now nameless in the trees, and all I?m able to do about it is to keep calling my own name, listen to Andr?s Schiff playing The Goldberg Variations, keep turning my face towards the sun, waiting for someone, anyone, to call back. --Michael Blumenthal. And. BOA Editions, 2009. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090719/df338354/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jul 19 09:53:59 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] And Michael Blumenthal Again In-Reply-To: <5956B1FA-6981-4CA9-BE1C-4181EE397A48@ripon.edu> References: <5956B1FA-6981-4CA9-BE1C-4181EE397A48@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5242E81A-79DC-440D-B60C-22E77FA4435B@ripon.edu> And here's a review of Blumenthal, with more sample poems: http://www.forward.com/articles/105240/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Jul 19, 2009, at 9:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > In heavy rotation at my house lately is Michael Blumenthal's new > collection titled *And*, from BOA Editions. Has anyone else caught > up with this one? > > Blumenthal's yet another mid-career poet I long been aware of but > not too familiar with, until this book caught my eye, by way of a > recommendation from David Kirby. > > It's really worth a look. Every poem's title begins with the word > "and," and the poems are long-lined, expansive, free-associative, > overstuffed. They carry titles like "And the Deep Abraxas of the > Hills Shall Love You Too" and "And the Whole Country Seems to > Laughing. At God Only Knows What." > > The predictable parallels with Whitman are apt enough, and before > that, with Old Testament poetry. Blumenthal's doing what so many > contemporary poets in the wake of Whitman have attempted--April > Bernard and Stan Rice spring to mind, along with Gerald Stern and > others--seeking an ecstatic, visionary sort of poetry that is > firmly grounded in the gritty and mundane. Sacred revelations in > the parking lot or at the ball game, dark nights of the soul while > watching late night TV. The poems are a lot less gauzily abstract, > say, than Charles Wright's, but the spiritual craving seems the > same, as are the sly humor and oddball moments. > > Here's Linda Gregerson's blurb: > > "Brazen, humble, sly, disarming, stalwart, sweet: conjunction's > fine continuo. These large-hearted poems take an all-embracing > "and" for both motto and creed. More life! they sing, even as they > survey the major and minor wreckage life has dealt us. More life > is what they generate too, unspooling lines as beautifully cadenced > and sustained as any I know. This And is a gift. " -Linda Gregerson > > > > And here is a sample poem: > > > And the Self That Was My Old Self Is Still Within Me > > But it is sleepy sleepy, has taken too many antibiotics, does not, > on occasion, recognize its own face in the mirror, yet still agrees > with Schopenhauer, that even this, the worst of all possible worlds, > > doesn?t exempt us from the obligation to put things beautifully, > that stylistic perfection, too, is a source of gratification. So what > if things are not the way they used to be, huge missteps taken > > in every direction, wrong choices, unlikely alliances, friends > not in the higest of places, but usually the lowest? The dogwoods > and Eastern redbuds, nonetheless, are flowering once more, I > > have been poked and proddeed for weeks, seeking to identify > the source of maladies and maledictions, and nothing whatsoever > has been found at the root of thing, I am merely my old self > > in an achier, sloppier version, en route to the usual destinies: > Zhivago, lumbago, back pain, angina?gaze shimmying towards > the obits, birds once identified now nameless in the trees, and all > > I?m able to do about it is to keep calling my own name, listen > to Andr?s Schiff playing The Goldberg Variations, keep turning > my face towards the sun, waiting for someone, anyone, to call back. > > --Michael Blumenthal. And. BOA Editions, 2009. > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090719/5c2aacdb/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Jul 19 10:00:13 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] And Michael Blumenthal Again Message-ID: Thanks, David. Another book to snag my hard earned and dwindling dollars. **************Can love help you live longer? Find out now. (http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu slove00000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090719/0daa54cf/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sun Jul 19 13:45:14 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Swindle, a daily aggregator of contemporary poetry In-Reply-To: <4A630577.40100@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A60D628.1030403@nut-n-but.net> <4A60F59E.6030804@nut-n-but.net> <4A630577.40100@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Maybe I am crazy. But it's not names I have a problem with, it's coming up with characteristics upon which we can have enough agreement *and* enough specificity that the names are of any use. I can see no characteristics we can agree upon that would relate Nick Drake to Black Sabbath in a meaningful way with the specificity of agreed upon specifics that we can two pieces of music having, say, the same time signature. What we are talking about isn't like talking about jazz and rock. Or, if that's the breadth of naming you are looking at, then I reiterate that it functionally means almost nothing, in just the same way that telling me a song is a "jazz song" or a "folk song" has ZERO value to me, as it says very, very little about the song and NOTHING about whether it will be the kind of song I like. Do you see the problem? To get specific enough to be of any practical use demands agreement on characteristics that are at least melded with, if not wholly, matters of aesthetics. And, yes, music faces exactly the same problem with genre-- for example, do you know how many names for different types of jazz there are and how little agreement there is about which applies to which music? It's pretty easy to see when you participate in music communities and is just the kind of problem that "tagging" is meant to partially address. Calling something jazz, classic jazz, 50 jazz, bop, post-bop-- none of it helps me in any meaningful way. And why would I want to spend time fighting about definitions specific enough to allow me to know a song or poem before I hear it if I can just listen to the song or read the poem anyway? c On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 3:37 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > Bob, if the label doesn't help me tell what it is, then it's > *particularly* useless in helping me find it :) > > > I guess I erred in sloppy . . . labeling.? I should not have used the label, > "label," but the label, "defined label," to indicate what is needed.? No, I > should have used effectively defined label."? As for music, do you really > not think pop versus classical are helpful labels, or folk versus jazz?? In > poetry, "visual poetry" versus "Wilshberian poetry" wouldn't help you?? I > fear I think you are crazy, Chris.? You're reall