From munrop at sprynet.com Sat Aug 1 10:41:00 2009 From: munrop at sprynet.com (Peter Munro) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker offers invitation In-Reply-To: <618480.66676.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200907311600.n6VG04rP028911@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <618480.66676.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A7453FC.5040407@sprynet.com> Hi, I emerged a few weeks ago to say "hello" then disappeared into quiet again. Now I have a notice to give: I've had several poems published in the most recent Beloit Poetry Journal, featured at their website as well. Now, during the month of August, one of those poems will be the subject of a blog discussion hosted at their website. I invite you to go to the BPJ web site, read the poem, and then make comments at the blog if you are so moved. Links to the poem and to the blog can be found at: www.bpj.org To find the poem click on "Current Issue" for a table of contents with links. The blog is under "Poet's Forum". If you can tolerate Wilshberian poems, you might like these. Peter From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 1 13:37:35 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lurker offers invitation In-Reply-To: <4A7453FC.5040407@sprynet.com> References: <200907311600.n6VG04rP028911@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <618480.66676.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A7453FC.5040407@sprynet.com> Message-ID: Wilshberian with a touch of sole, I think you mean... that's a whole different category... c On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Peter Munro wrote: > > If you can tolerate Wilshberian poems, you might like these. From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 11:05:30 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ducks again Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908020805q6c5d9330jeeaf58d78707452c@mail.gmail.com> Ducks all over the place, Daniel Zimmerman just forwarded the following: This story just won NPR's Three-minute fiction contest: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106524469 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090802/d065d8a2/attachment.html From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 2 23:12:38 2009 From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (Jorgensen, Alexander) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Speech - Moria In-Reply-To: <200908021600.n72G04nB029446@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <586502.69309.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> New at Moria: ? http://www.moriapoetry.com/jorgensen870.html ? -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." --- On Mon, 8/3/09, new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: From: new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 62, Issue 2 To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:00 AM Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to ??? new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? new-poetry-request@wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at ??? new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. ducks again (Anny Ballardini) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:05:30 +0200 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: [New-Poetry] ducks again To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,??? Views" ??? Message-ID: ??? <4b65c2d70908020805q6c5d9330jeeaf58d78707452c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ducks all over the place, Daniel Zimmerman just forwarded the following: This story just won NPR's Three-minute fiction contest: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106524469 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090802/d065d8a2/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 62, Issue 2 ***************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090802/81e62aab/attachment.html From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 3 10:13:54 2009 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] D. A. Powell & Rachel Loden in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <586502.69309.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200908021600.n72G04nB029446@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <586502.69309.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2561C7C7D54F49A1980634D1F36A10EC@GlassCastle> Please come if you can and say hello! My first reading since the Pleistocene.... Thursday, August 6th at 7 p.m. D. A. Powell & Rachel Loden Reading from their new books, Chronic & Dick of the Dead Bookshop West Portal 80 West Portal Avenue San Francisco, CA 94127 415 564 8080 http://www.bookshopwestportal.com/ D. A. Powell is the author of Tea, Lunch and Cocktails. The latter was a finalist for the Lambda and the National Book Critics' Circle Awards. His most recent collection is Chronic (Graywolf, 2009). Together with David Trinidad and a cast of hundreds, Powell is also the author of By Myself: An Autobiography (Turtle Point, 2009). A former Briggs-Copeland lecturer in Poetry at Harvard University, Powell now teaches in the English Department at University of San Francisco. Rachel Loden is the author of Dick of the Dead, which came out in May. Her first book, Hotel Imperium, was selected as one of the ten best poetry books of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle, which called it "quirky and beguiling." It was also shortlisted for the Bay Area Book Reviewers Award. Honors include two appearances in the Best American Poetry series, a Pushcart Prize, a Fellowship in Poetry from the California Arts Council, and a grant from the Fund for Poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/30e414d7/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 10:15:30 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] D. A. Powell & Rachel Loden in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <2561C7C7D54F49A1980634D1F36A10EC@GlassCastle> References: <200908021600.n72G04nB029446@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <586502.69309.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2561C7C7D54F49A1980634D1F36A10EC@GlassCastle> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908030715l6519a22fte6eb0f6eb711f3e9@mail.gmail.com> Go Rachel Go! On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Rachel Loden wrote: > Please come if you can and say hello! My first reading since the > Pleistocene.... > > > > Thursday, August 6th at 7 p.m. > > > > D. A. Powell & Rachel Loden > > > > Reading from their new books, > > Chronic & Dick of the Dead > > > > Bookshop West Portal > > 80 West Portal Avenue > > San Francisco, CA 94127 > > 415 564 8080 > > > > http://www.bookshopwestportal..com/ > > > > D. A. Powell is the author of Tea, Lunch and Cocktails. The latter was a > > finalist for the Lambda and the National Book Critics' Circle Awards. > > His most recent collection is Chronic (Graywolf, 2009). Together with > > David Trinidad and a cast of hundreds, Powell is also the author of By > > Myself: An Autobiography (Turtle Point, 2009). A former Briggs-Copeland > > lecturer in Poetry at Harvard University, Powell now teaches in the > > English Department at University of San Francisco. > > > > Rachel Loden is the author of Dick of the Dead, which came out in May. Her > > first book, Hotel Imperium, was selected as one of the ten best poetry > books > > of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle, which called it "quirky and > > beguiling." It was also shortlisted for the Bay Area Book Reviewers Award. > > Honors include two appearances in the Best American Poetry series, a > > Pushcart Prize, a Fellowship in Poetry from the California Arts Council, > and > > a grant from the Fund for Poetry. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/3a2f11b2/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:20:47 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] D. A. Powell & Rachel Loden in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <2561C7C7D54F49A1980634D1F36A10EC@GlassCastle> References: <200908021600.n72G04nB029446@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <586502.69309.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2561C7C7D54F49A1980634D1F36A10EC@GlassCastle> Message-ID: Ah, those were the days. Hal On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Rachel Loden wrote: > Please come if you can and say hello! My first reading since the > Pleistocene.... > "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/acfd75cd/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Aug 3 11:44:03 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_my_birthday_and_there?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyBhIEZvZ+KApg==?= Message-ID: <494125.31062.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> August 3, 2009 ??--?? http://foggedclarity.com/ ? FICTION ? Caitlin Horrocks? ??????????? Dylan Brock??????????? ??????????? ? ? POETRY ? Scott Hightower??????????? Howie Good??????????? ??????????? Ana Bozicevic??????????? ??????????? Amy King??????????? ??????????? Niels Hav??????????? ??????????? Thax Douglas??????????? ??????????? Dawn Schout??????????? ??????????? ? ? VISUAL ? Patrick Gunderson Alexey Mamochkin??????????? Dominik Kruger??????????? ? ? POLEMICS ? Ryan McCarl??????????? ? ? AURAL ? White Pines??????????? ??????????? ? ? INTERVIEWS ? Danielle Evans??????????? Amy King & Michael Tyrell??????????? Joseph Scott??????????? ??????????? ? http://foggedclarity.com/ _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/278d2bb2/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:43:10 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New old lexicon: esp. for Bob G. Message-ID: My guess is that Grumman's great-grandfather probably wrote this lexicon: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03schott.html?_r=1 Amazing how much of this lingo is still with us. Not. Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/383fe95c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:51:44 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New old lexicon: esp. for Bob G. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908031051s59c6da97vc2ada2b9f48c8202@mail.gmail.com> Titmouse! On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > My guess is that Grumman's great-grandfather probably wrote > this lexicon: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03schott.html?_r=1 > > Amazing how much of this lingo is still with us. Not. > > Hal > > "A paranoid is someone who knows a little > of what's going on." > --William S. Burroughs > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/418c133a/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:00:40 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New old lexicon: esp. for Bob G. In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908031051s59c6da97vc2ada2b9f48c8202@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908031051s59c6da97vc2ada2b9f48c8202@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I deny everything, Anny. Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Titmouse! > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> My guess is that Grumman's great-grandfather probably wrote >> this lexicon: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03schott.html?_r=1 >> >> Amazing how much of this lingo is still with us. Not. >> >> Hal >> >> "A paranoid is someone who knows a little >> of what's going on." >> --William S. Burroughs >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/656072cd/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 3 15:51:17 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] New old lexicon: esp. for Bob G. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A773FB5.70504@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > My guess is that Grumman's great-grandfather probably wrote > this lexicon: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03schott.html?_r=1 > Probably so, Hal--at just about the time your great-grandfather was inventing nihilism. > Amazing how much of this lingo is still with us. Not. Yeah. Too bad no one has the power permanently to extirpate all strange words from the English language. --Bob From danthomasglass at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:42:59 2009 From: danthomasglass at gmail.com (Dan Glass) Date: Mon Aug 3 14:54:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] With + Stand 4: the Lisa Robertson Issue Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LisaRoberstonWS4call.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 155587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090803/bbbcd0f3/LisaRoberstonWS4call.pdf From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 15:43:21 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue Aug 4 13:56:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?I=E2=80=99m_at_The_Living_Room_but?= Message-ID: <508345.89623.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Seating is limited! ? ? Five sets of music & two readings: ? Samantha Farrell Strand of Oaks Karisa Wilson Amir Darzi Michael Tyrell Amy King Judson Claiborne ? ? Sunday, September 13, 2009 @ 9 pm ? The Living Room 154 Ludlow St. New York, NY 10002 ? ? INFO -- http://www.livingroomny.com/artist/fogged-clarity TICKETS -- http://foggedclarity.com/? ? ? ** I?ll be reading from my new book, Slaves to do These Things. _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090804/d6acc1f0/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 23:17:07 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Aug 4 21:30:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:48 PM Subject: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! To: Michael Cc: Michael *Part 1 of this year?s Big Bridge is now online!* * * http://www.bigbridge.org/ As usual, it includes balanced presentations of arts and genres, aesthetic approaches and socio-political statements, compact anthologies and stand-alone works. The issue opens with a collection of essays and examples of Slow Poetry, one of the leading contenders for the first major shift in 21st century art. Not a movement, but rather a means of approaching, rethinking, and appreciating virtually all modes and genres. A measure of the importance of this feature is that its URL got passed around before the issue officially went online. It thus officially appears after being mentioned in blogs, and even satirized by another group. In one way or another, we hope our features tend to be similarly ahead of the curve - at times going so far as to generate response before official publication. We do, however, try to present work that keeps response from distorting our environment, as we try to reclaim poetry from preconception. This issue?s anthology of poetry and fiction from South Africa, for instance, makes no attempt to fill in news stories or confirm simplifications of huge problems and unusual successes, but present a glimpse of the diversity of a complex nation?s poetry and the individuality of its writers. Standard features such as the continuing group statements in War Papers and another in the series of paintings by Jim Spitzer, judicious essays and terse reviews, short fiction and a suggestive sample of current little magazines published on paper in the digital age continue the scope of the magazine. A simplified table of contents appears below. This issue differs from its predecessors in several ways. It intersects with the ROCKPILE program of transcontinental readings lead by David Meltzer and Michael Rothenberg and including local participants. It also appears several months before the omnibus New Orleans anthology, which, in itself, is larger than everything else in the issue. Later this year, we will also add a compact, bi-lingual Anthology of Venezuelan Women poets, another tri-lingual Anthology of Galician writers and a few small contributions. We feel that dividing the issue up this way keeps the New Orleans feature from throwing the issue off balance and giving our readers some breathing room. Opening ROCKPILE at this time also gives us a chance to test the interaction of an annual magazine with an on-going project. Although we are adamant partisans in some areas, such as opposition to senseless wars in places the U.S. does not understand and where it does not belong, and in celebration of the history and resurrection of one of America?s greatest cities, we hope to maintain enough diversity to present some work that will appeal to nearly anyone who looks for progressive poetry on the web, and perhaps promote interchange between people with different ideas and orientations. At a time when economic crisis brings out the perennial name for boondoggles, we?d like to move as far away from being a bridge to nowhere as we can but rather see how close we can come to being a big bridge that can act as a focal point for the cyberbridges that lead everywhere. *CHAPBOOK * *A Time in Fragments* Poem by Clark Coolidge; Drawings by Nancy Victoria Davis *FEATURES, 1* *Slow Poetry* Edited by Dale Smith *Beauty Came Groveling Forward:* *Selected South African Poems and Stories* edited by Gary Cummiskey *All This Strangeness: A Garland for George Oppen* Edited by Eric Hoffman *Sephardic Proverbs* Collected and translated by Michael Castro * * *Post-Beat Anthology* Reprint from the Chinese anthology, with brief intro Edited by Vernon Frazer *as per Le Roman de la Rose, for example:* *An Anthology of Middle East Genocide* Edited by Arpine Konyalian Grenier * * *Charles Olson and the Nature of Destructive Humanism* by Craig Stormont * * *One Man Blues:* *Remembering Thomas Chapin* Reminiscense by Vernon Frazer * * *Excerpt from Autobiography* by David Bromige *The India Journals* by John Brandi *Genius and Heroin:* by Michael Largo * * *WAR PAPERS (3)* Poems and essays against war. *FEATURES, 2 - ONGOING:* * * *ROCKPILE* *ROCKPILE* is a collaboration between David Meltzer - poet, musician, essayist, and more - and Michael Rothenberg, poet, songwriter and editor of Big Bridge Press. In the tradition of the troubadour and with the spirit of collaboration, David and Michael will journey through eight U.S. cities and perform poetry, composed on the road, with local musicians and artists in each city. *ROCKPILE* will serve to educate, and preserve and create a history of collaboration and help to introduce as well as reinforce the tradition of the troubadour for all generations. The project will end with a final multimedia performance in San Francisco. Check out the *ROCKPILE* Website and Blog at http://bigbridge.org/rockpile/for complete gig dates, musician bios, on the road calendar, and ongoing interactive exchange! *ART* *Enigmas* paintings by Jim Spitzer * * *The Kingdom of Madison:* Photographs from Madison County, North Carolina by Rob Amberg * * *These Are My Angels* Paintings by Tasha Robbins *Lectura en Transito* Project Created and Directed by Carmen Gloria Berrios Set based on combination of public art and poetry from Santiago de Chile * * *Animal Night Photography* by Felicia Murray; notes by Louise Landes Levi * * *12 Collages * by John Brandi *FICTION* And *REVIEWS* * * *LITTLE MAGS* *Plastic** Ocean**, Green Dragon* and *Untamed Ink* * * *Still Coming to Big Bridge this Issue:* * * *FEATURES, 3* * * *Big Bridge New Orleans Sturm und Drang Anthology * edited by Dave Brinks and Bill Lavender Work by 30 artists and 90 writers *Perfiles de la Noche / Profiles of Night* Mujeres poetas de Venezuela/Women Poets of Venezuela A Selection from the Bi-lingual Anthology Original complete text selected and translated by Rowena Hill Co-edited by Pen de Venezuela and bid & co. Selection for online edition by Terri Carrion *A Tri-lingual Anthology of Galician Writers* Compiled, edited, and translated from Galician to Spanish by F.R. Lavandeira. Translated from Spanish to English by Terri Carrion. Continuation of a Retrospective of the Publication Work of Karl Young *http://www.bigbridge.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090804/6052d039/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 02:16:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 5 00:29:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908042316o534fdec1ldab5cc990db734c3@mail.gmail.com> WHAT AN ISSUE! So proud to be part of them all, Thank you Hal! Anny On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael > Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:48 PM > Subject: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! > To: Michael > Cc: Michael > > > *Part 1 of this year?s Big Bridge is now online!* > > * * > > http://www.bigbridge.org/ > > > > As usual, it includes balanced presentations of arts and genres, aesthetic > approaches and socio-political statements, compact anthologies and > stand-alone works. > > > > The issue opens with a collection of essays and examples of Slow Poetry, > one of the leading contenders for the first major shift in 21st century > art. Not a movement, but rather a means of approaching, rethinking, and > appreciating virtually all modes and genres. A measure of the importance of > this feature is that its URL got passed around before the issue officially > went online. It thus officially appears after being mentioned in blogs, and > even satirized by another group. In one way or another, we hope our features > tend to be similarly ahead of the curve - at times going so far as to > generate response before official publication. > > > > We do, however, try to present work that keeps response from distorting our > environment, as we try to reclaim poetry from preconception. This issue?s > anthology of poetry and fiction from South Africa, for instance, makes no > attempt to fill in news stories or confirm simplifications of huge problems > and unusual successes, but present a glimpse of the diversity of a complex > nation?s poetry and the individuality of its writers. > > > > Standard features such as the continuing group statements in War Papers and > another in the series of paintings by Jim Spitzer, judicious essays and > terse reviews, short fiction and a suggestive sample of current little > magazines published on paper in the digital age continue the scope of the > magazine. A simplified table of contents appears below. > > > > This issue differs from its predecessors in several ways. It intersects > with the ROCKPILE program of transcontinental readings lead by David Meltzer > and Michael Rothenberg and including local participants. > > > > It also appears several months before the omnibus New Orleans anthology, > which, in itself, is larger than everything else in the issue. Later this > year, we will also add a compact, bi-lingual Anthology of Venezuelan Women > poets, another tri-lingual Anthology of Galician writers and a few small > contributions. We feel that dividing the issue up this way keeps the New > Orleans feature from throwing the issue off balance and giving our readers > some breathing room. Opening ROCKPILE at this time also gives us a chance to > test the interaction of an annual magazine with an on-going project. > > > > Although we are adamant partisans in some areas, such as opposition to > senseless wars in places the U.S. does not understand and where it does not > belong, and in celebration of the history and resurrection of one of > America?s greatest cities, we hope to maintain enough diversity to present > some work that will appeal to nearly anyone who looks for progressive poetry > on the web, and perhaps promote interchange between people with different > ideas and orientations. > > > > At a time when economic crisis brings out the perennial name for > boondoggles, we?d like to move as far away from being a bridge to nowhere as > we can but rather see how close we can come to being a big bridge that can > act as a focal point for the cyberbridges that lead everywhere. > > > > > > > > *CHAPBOOK * > > > > *A Time in Fragments* > > Poem by Clark Coolidge; Drawings by Nancy Victoria Davis > > > > > > > > *FEATURES, 1* > > > > *Slow Poetry* > > Edited by Dale Smith > > > > *Beauty Came Groveling Forward:* > > *Selected South African Poems and Stories* > > edited by Gary Cummiskey > > > > *All This Strangeness: A Garland for George Oppen* > > Edited by Eric Hoffman > > > > *Sephardic Proverbs* > > Collected and translated by Michael Castro > > * * > > *Post-Beat Anthology* > > Reprint from the Chinese anthology, with brief intro > > Edited by Vernon Frazer > > > > *as per Le Roman de la Rose, for example:* > > *An Anthology of Middle East Genocide* > > Edited by Arpine Konyalian Grenier > > * * > > *Charles Olson and the Nature of Destructive Humanism* > > by Craig Stormont > > * * > > *One Man Blues:* > > *Remembering Thomas Chapin* > > Reminiscense by Vernon Frazer > > * * > > *Excerpt from Autobiography* > > by David Bromige > > > > *The India Journals* > > by John Brandi > > > > *Genius and Heroin:* > > by Michael Largo > > * * > > *WAR PAPERS (3)* > > Poems and essays against war. > > > > > > > > > > *FEATURES, 2 - ONGOING:* > > * * > > *ROCKPILE* > > > > *ROCKPILE* is a collaboration between David Meltzer - poet, musician, > essayist, > > and more - and Michael Rothenberg, poet, songwriter and editor of Big > Bridge Press. In the tradition of the troubadour and with the spirit of > collaboration, David and Michael will journey through eight U.S. cities > and perform poetry, composed on the road, with local musicians and artists > in each city. > > *ROCKPILE* will serve to educate, and preserve and create a history of > collaboration and help to introduce as well as reinforce the tradition of > the troubadour for all generations. > > The project will end with a final multimedia performance in San Francisco. > > Check out the *ROCKPILE* Website and Blog at > http://bigbridge.org/rockpile/ for complete gig dates, musician bios, on > the road calendar, and ongoing interactive exchange! > > > > > > > > *ART* > > > > *Enigmas* > > paintings by Jim Spitzer > > * * > > *The Kingdom of Madison:* > > Photographs from Madison County, North Carolina by Rob Amberg > > * * > > *These Are My Angels* > > Paintings by Tasha Robbins > > > > *Lectura en Transito* > > Project Created and Directed by Carmen Gloria Berrios > > Set based on combination of public art and poetry from Santiago de Chile > > * * > > *Animal Night Photography* > > by Felicia Murray; notes by Louise Landes Levi > > * * > > *12 Collages * > > by John Brandi > > > > > > > > *FICTION* > > > > And > > > > *REVIEWS* > > > > > > * * > > > > *LITTLE MAGS* > > > > *Plastic** Ocean**, Green Dragon* and *Untamed Ink* > > > > * * > > > > *Still Coming to Big Bridge this Issue:* > > > > * * > > *FEATURES, 3* > > * * > > *Big Bridge New Orleans Sturm und Drang Anthology > * > > edited by Dave Brinks and Bill Lavender > > Work by 30 artists and 90 writers > > > > *Perfiles de la Noche / Profiles of Night* > > Mujeres poetas de Venezuela/Women Poets of Venezuela > > A Selection from the Bi-lingual Anthology > > Original complete text selected and translated by Rowena Hill > > Co-edited by Pen de Venezuela and bid & co. > > Selection for online edition by Terri Carrion > > > > *A Tri-lingual Anthology of Galician Writers* > > Compiled, edited, and translated from Galician to Spanish by F.R. > Lavandeira. > > Translated from Spanish to English by Terri Carrion. > > > > > > Continuation of a Retrospective of the Publication Work of Karl Young > > > > > > *http://www.bigbridge.org* > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090805/0967522b/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Wed Aug 5 02:39:22 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Aug 5 00:52:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> Message-ID: If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and Prevallet's thoughts than before. I don't suspect it matters much, really, but still... c From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 06:33:55 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 5 04:47:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: the destruction of books In-Reply-To: <1249458300.4a79387c7ea0a@webmail.netspace.net.au> References: <1249458300.4a79387c7ea0a@webmail.netspace.net.au> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908050333n7c6ad195wed871b1217737367@mail.gmail.com> Forwarded by Max Richards: Hi Everyone I'm working on an essay about the destruction of books--not the infamous sort, where a culture is trying to be obliterated, but rather a more everyday sort, where books are pulped by publishers, estates are sent to the rubbish tip, newspapers or publishers get rid of old stock or want room for something else, booksellers destroying unsellable books, libraries 'making room' for something else and so on, usually to do with economic convenience or just what to do with grandfather's books. I'm looking simply for anecdotal stories about events that you know of, or someone told you (gossip is fine) and so on. If you have any stories about any level of 'throwing out the books', I'd like to read about them if you have a bit of time to write them down. I'm not looking to publish any of the stories, but if I did want to use something you wrote I'd seek your permission beforehand. all best to all Alan -- Alan Loney 6/47 Grant St, Malvern East VIC 3145, Australia +61 3 9571 6856 http://alanloney.blogspot.com http://www.electioeditions.com ----- End forwarded message ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090805/658ca5d0/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Wed Aug 5 12:41:46 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Wed Aug 5 10:55:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: the destruction of books In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908050333n7c6ad195wed871b1217737367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <028CF5C39D77435EBA40F3719F8D3913@win.louisiana.edu> Anny, Do we have a way of contacting Alan Loney? I know about Madison's rare book room (which has one of the best two collections of little literary magazines in English during the twentieth century) getting rid of all undergraduate, campus-funded literary magazines because of room. I'd have to check my records, but Clayton Eshleman. I believe, edited an undergraduate literary at Bloomington, which included pieces by Olson, Creeley, and others. The other major collection of literary magazines in English during the 20th cent. is Buffalo. Generally Buffalo's collection is better from 1976 to the present, whereas Madison's (based on the original Sukov collection) is best from 1900-1976. Felix Pollak, Madison's curator and poet, retired around 1976 and Bob Bertholf began as curator at Madison two years or so before. Little, literary magazines, by the way, contain a wealth of generally unindexed materials important to editors and scholars. End of lecture. (I guess I'm ramping up into teaching mode for the Fall semester.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:34 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: the destruction of books Forwarded by Max Richards: Hi Everyone I'm working on an essay about the destruction of books--not the infamous sort, where a culture is trying to be obliterated, but rather a more everyday sort, where books are pulped by publishers, estates are sent to the rubbish tip, newspapers or publishers get rid of old stock or want room for something else, booksellers destroying unsellable books, libraries 'making room' for something else and so on, usually to do with economic convenience or just what to do with grandfather's books. I'm looking simply for anecdotal stories about events that you know of, or someone told you (gossip is fine) and so on. If you have any stories about any level of 'throwing out the books', I'd like to read about them if you have a bit of time to write them down. I'm not looking to publish any of the stories, but if I did want to use something you wrote I'd seek your permission beforehand. all best to all Alan -- Alan Loney 6/47 Grant St, Malvern East VIC 3145, Australia +61 3 9571 6856 http://alanloney.blogspot.com http://www.electioeditions.com ----- End forwarded message ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090805/35d3d09f/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 6 18:03:20 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu Aug 6 15:11:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> Message-ID: <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share > with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and > Prevallet's thoughts than before. I've only read Smith's introduction. He doesn't seem to be saying much. Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so you should like what he says, Chris. I completely disagree with his belief that we are undeniably in "dark and stupid times." As someone who has always lived under the poverty line, I haven't noticed much change in my life. And I've read about the Depression and remember what my parents said about it. If these are dark times (all times are mostly stupid because most people are stupid), what were the Depression years? And, really, how many people died of starvation in America then? Remember that 75% of American workers had jobs. No one was dying of the Bubonic Plague or being executed by Inquisitors. In any case, for me, a poet's function is simply to make works of beauty out of words, not to Correct the World. Slow poetry seems to be environmentalistic propaganda. I wrote one such poem once, but think those really concerned should write essays. Slow poetry also seems to be the kind of poetry people like Geof Huth favor (and I like but am not too involved with)--poems hand-calligraphied into hand-made books that can't be opened and paged through quickly. Fine, but poetry has always been designed against speed-reading. Slow poetry seems from Smith to focus on the local, connect (I suppose) with the Common Man, avoid universals. I may read some of the /Big Bridge/ essays about slow poetry. My impression of it now is that it's as vague and useless a term as "school of quietude." So it will be widely discussed. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/30773511/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Aug 6 17:12:00 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu Aug 6 15:25:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> On Aug 6, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: >> >> If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share >> with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and >> Prevallet's thoughts than before. > I've only read Smith's introduction. He doesn't seem to be saying > much. Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so > you should like what he says, Chris. > > I completely disagree with his belief that we are undeniably in > "dark and stupid times." =============================== I completely agree with Bob on this point, and I must say that whenever I hear such notions as preface to yet another literary argument or "school," I always think of what Robert Frost said on the subject: "But speaking of ages, you will often hear it said that the age of the world we live in is particularly bad. I am impatient of such talk. We have no way of knowing that this age is one of the worst in the world's history. Arnold claimed the honor for the age before this. Wordsworth claimed it for the last but one. And so on back through literature. I say they claimed the honor for their ages. They claimed it rather for themselves. It is immodest of a man to think of himself as going down before the worst forces ever mobilized by God." --Robert Frost. "Letter to The Amherst Student." 25 March 1935. Frost is most shrewd when he notes "they claimed it rather for themselves," I'd say. As for what "slow poetry" might be, I don't know, either, and haven't made it very far through the prose, though I've enjoyed some of the poems. I like *my* notion of what "slow poetry" might be, which was expressed very beautifully in one of my favorite passages (I often quote it, sorry!) from Wendell Berry: "One of the great practical uses of the literary disciplines, of course, is to resist glibness--to slow language down and make it thoughtful. This accounts, particularly, for the influence of verse, in its formal aspect, within the dynamics of the growth of language: verse checks the merely impulsive flow of speech, subjects it to another pulse, to measure, to extralinguistic consideration; by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it admits into language the influence of the Muse and of musing." --Wendell Berry. (I'm away from my books now, but this passage is somewhere in *Standing By Words*). ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/2a483be9/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:12:47 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu Aug 6 15:25:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908061412r3f19ee6dy82f2c14d54c2cb49@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bob, I had already read the article before the issue came out. I might have already forgotten part of it, but I quoted both Dale Smith and Karl Young and said that my poetry conforms to their statements. So far so good, nothing terrible has happened, yet. What does not work too well, is that I also agree with you when you speak of the Depression, starvation, Bubonic plague, inquisition [ah, ..]. I don't have anything against environmental poetry, and find many of my concepts of beauty in nature, which I wish to safeguard as much as I can. On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share > with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and > Prevallet's thoughts than before. > > I've only read Smith's introduction. He doesn't seem to be saying much. > Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so you should like > what he says, Chris. > > I completely disagree with his belief that we are undeniably in "dark and > stupid times." As someone who has always lived under the poverty line, I > haven't noticed much change in my life. And I've read about the Depression > and remember what my parents said about it. If these are dark times (all > times are mostly stupid because most people are stupid), what were the > Depression years? And, really, how many people died of starvation in > America then? Remember that 75% of American workers had jobs. No one was > dying of the Bubonic Plague or being executed by Inquisitors. In any case, > for me, a poet's function is simply to make works of beauty out of words, > not to Correct the World. > > Slow poetry seems to be environmentalistic propaganda. I wrote one such > poem once, but think those really concerned should write essays. Slow > poetry also seems to be the kind of poetry people like Geof Huth favor (and > I like but am not too involved with)--poems hand-calligraphied into > hand-made books that can't be opened and paged through quickly. Fine, but > poetry has always been designed against speed-reading. Slow poetry seems > from Smith to focus on the local, connect (I suppose) with the Common Man, > avoid universals. > > I may read some of the *Big Bridge* essays about slow poetry. My > impression of it now is that it's as vague and useless a term as "school of > quietude." So it will be widely discussed. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/3d6106f9/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Thu Aug 6 17:43:28 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Thu Aug 6 15:56:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> Fresh from Muse discussions on WOMPO and The Best American Poetry, as well as threads on Form/Formalism, I'm most eager to slap the two bits together [muse, forms] and then have folks reveal the connections and mechanisms. BTW, I do not at all believe in The Muse. Where are you Bob Grumman and Barry SPAX?! Best, Judy 2009/8/6 David Graham > > > "by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it admits into language the > influence of the Muse and of musing." > > > --Wendell Berry. (I'm away from my books now, but this passage is > somewhere in *Standing By Words*). > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/66c05290/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:55:50 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 6 16:08:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Or as Snoopy always begins his story, "It was a dark and stupid night." Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 4:12 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Chris Lott wrote: > > If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share > with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and > Prevallet's thoughts than before. > > I've only read Smith's introduction. He doesn't seem to be saying much. > Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so you should like > what he says, Chris. > > I completely disagree with his belief that we are undeniably in "dark and > stupid times." > > =============================== > > I completely agree with Bob on this point, and I must say that whenever I > hear such notions as preface to yet another literary argument or "school," I > always think of what Robert Frost said on the subject: > > "But speaking of ages, you will often hear it said that the age of the > world we live in is particularly bad. I am impatient of such talk. We > have no way of knowing that this age is one of the worst in the world's > history. Arnold claimed the honor for the age before this. Wordsworth > claimed it for the last but one. And so on back through literature. I say > they claimed the honor for their ages. They claimed it rather for > themselves. It is immodest of a man to think of himself as going down > before the worst forces ever mobilized by God." > --Robert Frost. "Letter to *The Amherst Student." *25 March 1935. > > Frost is most shrewd when he notes "they claimed it rather for themselves," > I'd say. > > As for what "slow poetry" might be, I don't know, either, and haven't made > it very far through the prose, though I've enjoyed some of the poems. I > like *my* notion of what "slow poetry" might be, which was expressed very > beautifully in one of my favorite passages (I often quote it, sorry!) from > Wendell Berry: > > "One of the great practical uses of the literary disciplines, of course, is > to resist glibness--to slow language down and make it thoughtful. This > accounts, particularly, for the influence of verse, in its formal aspect, > within the dynamics of the growth of language: verse checks the merely > impulsive flow of speech, subjects it to another pulse, to measure, to > extralinguistic consideration; by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it > admits into language the influence of the Muse and of musing." > --Wendell Berry. (I'm away from my books now, but this passage is > somewhere in *Standing By Words*). > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/8ff1ae13/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 6 19:22:42 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu Aug 6 16:31:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908061412r3f19ee6dy82f2c14d54c2cb49@mail.gmail.com> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2><4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908061412r3f19ee6dy82f2c14d54c2cb49@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7B65C2.9060807@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Hi Bob, I had already read the article before the issue came out. I > might have already forgotten part of it, but I quoted both Dale Smith > and Karl Young and said that my poetry conforms to their statements. I think mine does, too, Anny. Except that I avoid overt political statements. I just don't think much of Smith's essay as a serious statement on poetics. Karl's is a different kettle of hsif. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Thu Aug 6 18:28:21 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu Aug 6 16:41:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share > with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and > Prevallet's thoughts than before. > > I've only read Smith's introduction.?? He doesn't seem to be saying much. > Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so you should like > what he says, Chris. Well, Bob-- us non-intellectual types never really get over our hard times, we just periodically forget to breathe. If I had more going on up in the ol' cranium I'd point out your usual straw man implications, but I can't get the lyrics of that song "If I only had a brain" to stop echoing around in that empty cavity... Still, I can make much more sense out of explanations of other slow movements such as Slow Food. Most of what Smith says makes literally no sense to me, or as much sense as this: "28 qw.% for oscillating [{}] pink" c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 6 19:45:31 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu Aug 6 16:53:38 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2><4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net><4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon .edu> <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7B6B1B.8030103@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Fresh from Muse discussions on WOMPO and The Best American Poetry, as > well as threads on Form/Formalism, I'm most eager to slap the two bits > together [muse, forms] and then have folks reveal the connections and > mechanisms. BTW, I do not at all believe in The Muse. Where are you > Bob Grumman and Barry SPAX?! > I've been bumbly lately. What's "The Muse," Judy? Tell us about him. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Thu Aug 6 18:46:54 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu Aug 6 16:59:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Fresh from Muse discussions The Muse as in the Goddess or the band or ?? I believe in the first two and probably a few more besides... c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 6 20:01:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu Aug 6 17:09:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Part 1 of this year's Big Bridge is now online! In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2><4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A7B6EC0.40301@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >> If anyone figures out what the hell "slow poetry" is, please share >> with this simpleton... I understand less after reading Smith and >> Prevallet's thoughts than before. >> >> I've only read Smith's introduction. He doesn't seem to be saying much. >> Certainly, he makes little effort to define or classify, so you should like >> what he says, Chris. >> > > Well, Bob-- us non-intellectual types never really get over our hard > times I wish you'd grant me the courtesy of acknowledging that I retracted my description of you as a "non-intellectual," Chris. You're definitely a verbal intellectual. The kind of intellectual I am, you're not, but I have pinned down what kind I am except that it's abstractly analytical and taxonomical. I sure can't agree Smith makes no sense. It's blurry sense but it's sense, for me. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/0473d5f5/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Thu Aug 6 21:59:20 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Thu Aug 6 20:12:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908061859q7b92ccc2t7fe8aed171311b02@mail.gmail.com> Do I hafta do ALL the work? You and Gog, oops, Bob---must be an American thing. Brits would understand the meaning of a capitalised proper noun and its pronoun. Or p'raps you haven't read Musa Pedestris.... The Judy 2009/8/6 Chris Lott > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > Fresh from Muse discussions > > The Muse as in the Goddess or the band or ?? > > I believe in the first two and probably a few more besides... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090806/ab3188a4/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Thu Aug 6 23:35:23 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu Aug 6 21:48:26 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908061859q7b92ccc2t7fe8aed171311b02@mail.gmail.com> References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908061859q7b92ccc2t7fe8aed171311b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: we're on the information superhighway and you expect us to pay attention to capitalization? what's next, punctuation`~ We americans know them muses came in a pack. Guess you meant the hotel... c On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Do I hafta do ALL the work? ?You and Gog, oops, Bob---must be an American > thing. ?Brits would understand the meaning of a capitalised proper noun and > its pronoun. > Or p'raps you haven't read Musa Pedestris.... > The Judy > 2009/8/6 Chris Lott From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri Aug 7 01:53:41 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Fri Aug 7 00:06:38 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark & stupid times In-Reply-To: References: <00e301ca156f$4347c2d0$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> <4A7B5328.8030801@nut-n-but.net> <4C1163E1-BE76-4927-B640-28A1EE8198D9@ripon.edu> <7db1d01b0908061443h72393dadvaf1cd96ef0bf1ffe@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908061859q7b92ccc2t7fe8aed171311b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908062253o4b5301f2x4a184405bb4c2e5a@mail.gmail.com> 'Ere's your 'ints, me duck; can be got in Google Books: >From MUSA PEDESTRIS by John S. Farmer Frisky Moll's Song [1724] >From priggs that snaffle the prancers strong, To you of the Peter Lay, I pray now listen awhile to my song, How my Boman he kicked away. He broke thro' all the rubbs in the whitt, And chivved his darbies in twain; But fileing of a rumbo ken, My Boman is snabbled again. I Frisky Moll, with my rum coll, Wou'd Grub in a bowzing ken; But ere for the scran he had tipt the cole, The Harman he came in. A famble, a tattle, and two popps, Had my Boman when he was ta'en; But had he not bouz'd in the diddle shops, He'd still been in Drury Lane. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best, The Judy aka Frisky Moll 2009/8/6 Chris Lott > we're on the information superhighway and you expect us to pay > attention to capitalization? what's next, punctuation`~ > > We americans know them muses came in a pack. Guess you meant the hotel... > > c > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Judy Prince > wrote: > > Do I hafta do ALL the work? You and Gog, oops, Bob---must be an American > > thing. Brits would understand the meaning of a capitalised proper noun > and > > its pronoun. > > Or p'raps you haven't read Musa Pedestris.... > > The Judy > > 2009/8/6 Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/2f76e15a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 09:24:50 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Aug 7 07:37:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Keillor's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908070624y7229c80cu5ef1b4d54bef6f65@mail.gmail.com> Not To Trouble You by Leonard Nathan Not to trouble you with love, I mean those adolescent dreams of great, of greater, or of greatest loving, let alone the crumbly personal kind?compared with, say, the public good or harder thoughts of death obliterating thoughts of love, or after- thoughts of love outgrown or love undone; and not to be ironic either, not to forget we come into the world alone and leave it so; and not to be claiming more than you can give, uncertain as I am what I require: something like love, I guess, whatever it is we've done without so long, so faithfully and with such tenderness. "Not To Trouble You" by Leonard Nathan, from *Ragged Sonnets*. ? Orchises Press, 2008. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/474dc69b/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 14:23:51 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Aug 7 12:36:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> Woodstock is on: http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp ! -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/44f009eb/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:17:29 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri Aug 7 14:30:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> Why address us, specifically? Do we look old or somethin'? Recently discovered factoid: Hal and I both owned VW buses named "Wolfgang." That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's acquaintance. Synchronicity, man. - Jim On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Woodstock is on: > http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp > > ! > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/dedc466c/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 7 17:54:47 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 7 16:07:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetrymattersnow.org video shorts Message-ID: <8CBE5C0D09B8D63-122C-8A1@WEBMAIL-DC13.sysops.aol.com> I ran across this site...short video features on contemporary poems/poets: http://poetrymattersnow.org/ like Gerald Stern: Still Burning http://poetrymattersnow.org/poetry/gerald-stern-still-burning/ Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/15396dd0/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:01:48 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri Aug 7 16:14:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Arf! Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Why address us, specifically? Do we look old or somethin'? > Recently discovered factoid: Hal and I both owned VW buses named > "Wolfgang." That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's > acquaintance. Synchronicity, man. > > - Jim > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > >> Woodstock is on: >> http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp >> >> ! >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/c7a77747/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Fri Aug 7 18:53:06 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri Aug 7 17:06:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the MUSE In-Reply-To: <200908071600.n77G05nA026709@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908071600.n77G05nA026709@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <75397E7B-0C78-4D9A-AE70-7B0C9B2B5D65@verizon.net> On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Judy-Judy wrote: > I do not at all believe in The Muse. Where are you Bob Grumman and > Barry SPAX?! > I take the word to mean "the force that drives the poem" which for me is essentially female in essence (no offense!). I had my say on Her years ago, to this effect: THE MUSE The Muse came pulling off her gown and nine feet tall she laid her down and I by her side a popinjay with nothing to say. Did she mean to stay? She smelled like flame, like starch on sweat, Like sperm; like shame; like a launderette. No one, she said, has loved me right. Day and night. Day and night. SPX > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090807/7c575798/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 02:25:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 8 00:38:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908072325l6e4eb635ge31876749ee0d748@mail.gmail.com> Cervantes, how do you know that I was talking to you? :-) on the other hand it would have been impossible for me to be there, and I can still 'remember' the importance of Woodstock. I could thus have addressed James Finnegan... On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Arf! > > Hal > > "A paranoid is someone who knows a little > of what's going on." > --William S. Burroughs > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM, James Cervantes > wrote: > >> Why address us, specifically? Do we look old or somethin'? >> Recently discovered factoid: Hal and I both owned VW buses named >> "Wolfgang." That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's >> acquaintance. Synchronicity, man. >> >> - Jim >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Woodstock is on: >>> http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp >>> >>> ! >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/b5ac2d99/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Aug 8 03:41:16 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat Aug 8 01:54:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the MUSE In-Reply-To: <75397E7B-0C78-4D9A-AE70-7B0C9B2B5D65@verizon.net> References: <200908071600.n77G05nA026709@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <75397E7B-0C78-4D9A-AE70-7B0C9B2B5D65@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908080041h5ab45bf0l62a3fd700db94eb7@mail.gmail.com> You well deserve a renaming, Barry. I much liked your muse poem. I'll call you Barely. Best, Frisky Moll 2009/8/7 Barry Spacks > > On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Judy-Judy wrote: > > I do not at all believe in The Muse. Where are you Bob Grumman and > Barry SPAX?! > > I take the word to mean "the force that drives the poem" which > for me is essentially female in essence (no offense!). > > I had my say on Her years ago, to this effect: > > THE MUSE > > The Muse came pulling off her gown > and nine feet tall she laid her down > and I by her side a popinjay > with nothing to say. Did she mean to stay? > > She smelled like flame, like starch on sweat, > Like sperm; like shame; like a launderette. > *No one*, she said, *has loved me right.* > * **Day and night. Day and night.* > * > * > *SPX > * > > * > > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/73baaed2/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 08:00:55 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat Aug 8 06:13:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908072325l6e4eb635ge31876749ee0d748@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70908072325l6e4eb635ge31876749ee0d748@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b60908080500x20a45c30g79b81b045097f9ff@mail.gmail.com> You're right! But I think Finnegan is too young to be part of "our" cohort, so my assumption was based on . . . ageism. Argh. Give me a "C." - Jim-the-Elder On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Cervantes, how do you know that I was talking to you? :-) > on the other hand it would have been impossible for me to be there, and I > can still 'remember' the importance of Woodstock. I could thus have > addressed James Finnegan... > > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Arf! >> >> Hal >> >> "A paranoid is someone who knows a little >> of what's going on." >> --William S. Burroughs >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM, James Cervantes < >> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Why address us, specifically? Do we look old or somethin'? >>> Recently discovered factoid: Hal and I both owned VW buses named >>> "Wolfgang." That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's >>> acquaintance. Synchronicity, man. >>> >>> - Jim >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini < >>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Woodstock is on: >>>> http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp >>>> >>>> ! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Anny Ballardini >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>> star! >>>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/8e7d08df/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 09:39:12 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 8 07:52:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: <648208b60908080500x20a45c30g79b81b045097f9ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d70908072325l6e4eb635ge31876749ee0d748@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908080500x20a45c30g79b81b045097f9ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908080639g32108806rf2195f72ea9a23d5@mail.gmail.com> the opposite, an A you got it right there that I was talking to you. On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 2:00 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > You're right! But I think Finnegan is too young to be part of "our" > cohort, so my assumption was based on . . . ageism. Argh. Give me a "C." > - Jim-the-Elder > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > >> Cervantes, how do you know that I was talking to you? :-) >> on the other hand it would have been impossible for me to be there, and I >> can still 'remember' the importance of Woodstock. I could thus have >> addressed James Finnegan... >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> Arf! >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "A paranoid is someone who knows a little >>> of what's going on." >>> --William S. Burroughs >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM, James Cervantes < >>> cervantes.james@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Why address us, specifically? Do we look old or somethin'? >>>> Recently discovered factoid: Hal and I both owned VW buses named >>>> "Wolfgang." That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's >>>> acquaintance. Synchronicity, man. >>>> >>>> - Jim >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini < >>>> anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Woodstock is on: >>>>> http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp >>>>> >>>>> ! >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Anny Ballardini >>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>>> star! >>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/fc8b7cb8/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 8 12:36:16 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 8 10:49:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] blogging thoughts about 'the game' Message-ID: <8CBE65D7C6E185D-180-1DA0@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> "That's just the way it is." I think we all hear and think this a lot. Unfair, messed-up, twisted situations seemingly out of our control, trapped in fucked-up systems, rules that don't help but hinder, entities bigger than any one us. Often we have little choice but to make the best of it... http://reblivingston.blogspot.com/2009/08/way.html I don't hate the po-biz. Parts of it are fun, and parts of it are shitty, and I find it pretty easy to keep myself more around the parts I like. It amuses me to regard it as a big game. In fact, here's a preliminary scoring system so you can keep track of who's winning. Let me know what else we need to add and how out of whack the point system is... "That's just the way it is." I think we all hear and think this a lot. Unfair, messed-up, twisted situations seemingly out of our control, trapped in fucked-up systems, rules that don't help but hinder, entities bigger than any one us. Often we have little choice but to make the best of it... http://reblivingston.blogspot.com/2009/08/way.html I don't hate the po-biz. Parts of it are fun, and parts of it are shitty, and I find it pretty easy to keep myself more around the parts I like. It amuses me to regard it as a big game. In fact, here's a preliminary scoring system so you can keep track of who's winning. Let me know what else we need to add and how out of whack the point system is... How to Win the Po-Biz Game... http://www.steveschroeder.info/2009/08/dont-hate-poet-hate-po-biz.html Which reminded me of an essay by W.H. Auden I had just been reading the night before. This sort of synchronicity doesn't happen too often, 50 or so readers of this website, so it was off to the scanner I went to take a picture of what good ole Wystan Hugh proposes. Here goes... http://www.danielnester.com/2009/08/wh-audens-daydream-college-for-bards.html I am more tired of people being fixated on drama. I think it would be so much more productive, that we would do much better to focus on the work of writing, editing, revising our poetry; to find venues for our poetry in print and performance; to establish and maintain communities of writers, artists, scholars, curators, independent publishers and booksellers; to produce publications and events which support the work of others and support the art; to mentor emerging artists... http://bjanepr.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/mfa-industrial-complex-alternatives/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/e6b9d91f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 14:54:21 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 8 13:07:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] blogging thoughts about 'the game' In-Reply-To: <8CBE65D7C6E185D-180-1DA0@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBE65D7C6E185D-180-1DA0@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908081154v49756127r3ca5081d46acfb43@mail.gmail.com> Very interesting. I simply published your post on my blog. One more point for W.H. Auden. On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, wrote: > "That's > just the way it is." I think we all hear and think this a lot. Unfair, > messed-up, twisted situations seemingly out of our control, trapped in > fucked-up systems, rules that don't help but hinder, entities bigger than > any one us. Often we have little choice but to make the best of it... > http://reblivingston.blogspot.com/2009/08/way.html > > I don't hate the po-biz. Parts of it are fun, and parts of it are shitty, > and I find it pretty easy to keep myself more around the parts I like. It > amuses me to regard it as a big game. In fact, here's a preliminary scoring > system so you can keep track of who's winning. Let me know what else we need > to add and how out of whack the point system is... How to Win the Po-Biz > Game... > http://www.steveschroeder.info/2009/08/dont-hate-poet-hate-po-biz.html > > Which reminded me of an essay by W.H. Auden I had just been reading the > night before. This sort of synchronicity doesn't happen too often, 50 or so > readers of this website, so it was off to the scanner I went to take a > picture of what good ole Wystan Hugh proposes. Here goes... > > http://www.danielnester.com/2009/08/wh-audens-daydream-college-for-bards.html > > I am more tired of people being fixated on drama. > I think it would be so much more productive, that we would do much better > to focus on the work of writing, editing, revising our poetry; to find > venues for our poetry in print and performance; to establish and maintain > communities of writers, artists, scholars, curators, independent publishers > and booksellers; to produce publications and events which support the work > of others and support the art; to mentor emerging artists... > > http://bjanepr.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/mfa-industrial-complex-alternatives/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/c1b5747e/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 8 16:32:57 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 8 14:46:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all In-Reply-To: <648208b60908080500x20a45c30g79b81b045097f9ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908071123n6424712bsf0709fa97e00ff9f@mail.gmail.com><648208b60908071317o15a780afr8f1712e33bdaf857@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d70908072325l6e4eb635ge31876749ee0d748@mail.gmail.com> <648208b60908080500x20a45c30g79b81b045097f9ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBE67E8C67A09D-180-23FF@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> My mom wouldn't let me go to Woodstock. But four years later, circa summer of?73, I hitchhiked from St. Louis?to NYC with my friend Ray. One of?us?thought he was?the next Bob Dylan.?I?was?always?a little?late to the party.? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes Sent: Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:00 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tad, Hal, James, hey you all You're right! ?But I think Finnegan is too young to be part of "our" cohort, so my assumption was based on . . . ageism. ?Argh. ?Give me a "C." - Jim-the-Elder On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Cervantes, how do you know that I was talking to you? :-) on the other hand it would have been impossible for me to be there, and I can still 'remember' the importance of Woodstock. I could thus have addressed James Finnegan... On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Arf! Hal "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --William S. Burroughs Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM, James Cervantes wrote: Why address us, specifically? ?Do we look old or somethin'? Recently discovered factoid: ?Hal and I both owned VW buses named "Wolfgang." ?That was almost 30 years before I made the old codger's acquaintance. ?Synchronicity, man. - Jim On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Woodstock is on: http://www.myspace.com/1969woodstock http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/music/09pare.html?hp ! -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090808/29cdea77/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 8 17:07:25 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat Aug 8 15:20:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] blogging thoughts about 'the game' In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908081154v49756127r3ca5081d46acfb43@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBE65D7C6E185D-180-1DA0@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908081154v49756127r3ca5081d46acfb43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just reading that Auden piece a month or so ago in _The Dyer's Hand_... a good book if you haven't read it... c On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Very interesting. I simply published your post on my blog. One more point > for W.H. Auden. > From editor at pavementsaw.org Sun Aug 9 20:09:46 2009 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sun Aug 9 18:22:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] final call, Transcontiental Poetry Contest, Sat 8/15 Message-ID: <840853.40864.qm@web45609.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested! Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part of the page count. 2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged. 5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces longer than one page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1000 and five percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. All submissions must have an August 15th, 2009, or earlier, postmark. This is an award for first books only. If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $20.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 ( US ) for other countries to cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $27.00 via paypal to info@pavementsaw.org. We will then send you an e-mail confirmation as well as where to e-mail the manuscript. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or as word (.doc, .docx) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty contract. A decision will be reached in November. Entries should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry 321 Empire Street Montpelier, OH 43543 All submissions must have an August 15th, or earlier, postmark or paypal payment. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only. If you have questions, please ask us: info@pavementsaw.org Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Aug 9 22:53:04 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun Aug 9 21:05:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogged Message-ID: <765B2E32-216A-434D-9493-9A24B294F41E@ripon.edu> An old poem of mine appeared on Robin Chapman's blog yesterday. Nice surprise to see it again: http://robinchapmanspoemaday.blogspot.com/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090809/550dde78/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 02:36:36 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 10 00:49:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogged In-Reply-To: <765B2E32-216A-434D-9493-9A24B294F41E@ripon.edu> References: <765B2E32-216A-434D-9493-9A24B294F41E@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908092336s206dd293iea37af8b7e429503@mail.gmail.com> A nice poem, the opposite of you, I'd say. Exception made for the last twist. On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 4:53 AM, David Graham wrote: > An old poem of mine appeared on Robin Chapman's blog yesterday. Nice > surprise to see it again: > http://robinchapmanspoemaday.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/a96d83bc/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Aug 10 10:56:35 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:09:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grace Bauer featured in Pif Magazine Message-ID: http://www.pifmagazine.com/SID/927/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/e2920f2b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 10 12:52:17 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 10 11:05:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] For poets with an interest in mathematics, a review by J. M. Coetzee In-Reply-To: <8CBE7F1EC24D1FA-D18-7B0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBE7F1EC24D1FA-D18-7B0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBE7F20DC62B93-D18-7C0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> http://www.ams.org/notices/200908/rtx090800944p.pdf Strange Attractors: Poems of Love and Mathematics A Book Review Reviewed by J. M. Coetzee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/b5f1cd22/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 14:11:08 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 10 12:23:36 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a song Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908101111s67524addmf52cfa8e4656f4c@mail.gmail.com> Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who sang it? The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the rain....): http://www.myattphoto.com/pageh.html thank you, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/832fff2d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 10 15:29:40 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 10 12:37:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] For poets with an interest in mathematics,a review by J. M. Coetzee In-Reply-To: <8CBE7F20DC62B93-D18-7C0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBE7F1EC24D1FA-D18-7B0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> <8CBE7F20DC62B93-D18-7C0@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A807524.6000101@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > > http://www.ams.org/notices/200908/rtx090800944p.pdf Thanks for finding this and posting it, James. I have a poem in it, as does fellow New-Poetry contributor Kaz Maslanka, although you wouldn't know it from the review. I think the Eminence doing the review wasn't interested in mathematical poetry, just in poems about mathematics. But I guess it's good the anthology has gotten a review. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 14:59:15 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 10 13:11:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] talking of fame Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908101159x66ec863dl46987b9262934212@mail.gmail.com> FAME = [in Italian] HUNGER Ed Baker - Ron Silliman linked to the Corner re.: his very interesting letter to Jackson Mac Low: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=355 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/65cc847e/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 10 19:48:34 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 10 18:01:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Indian poetry in English Message-ID: <8CBE82C356D1FAB-454-C39@mblk-d27.sysops.aol.com> http://www.hindu.com/br/2009/08/11/stories/2009081150021300.htm REPRESENTATIONS OF A CULTURE IN INDIAN ENGLISH POETRY: Mita Biswas; Indian Institute of Advanced Study, Rashtrapati Nivas, Shimla-171005. Rs. 470. How long can foreign poets Provide the staple of your lines? Turn inward. Scrape the bottom of your past. - R. Parthasarathy, Rough Passage Invariably Indian poetry in English has received a mixed response from readers and critics alike. The basic question that used to be raised was: can (or how can) an Indian poet have the ?feel? of an alien language? Or is it only sometimes Indian and occasionally poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/d4e7e841/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 21:31:13 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon Aug 10 19:43:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a song In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908101111s67524addmf52cfa8e4656f4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908101111s67524addmf52cfa8e4656f4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <154662.67319.qm@web54109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Anny, If I'm hearing what you're hearing, it's "Candle In The Wind," by Elton John, from the album Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. An easy one. John ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:11:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] a song Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who sang it? The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the rain....): http://www.myattphoto.com/pageh.html thank you, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/ee02421b/attachment.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Aug 10 22:20:19 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Mon Aug 10 20:32:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a song Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/2009 1:11:28 PM Central Daylight Time, anny.ballardini@gmail.com writes: > > > Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who sang it? > The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the rain....): > http://www.myattphoto.com/pageh.html > > thank you, Anny Sung at Princess Di's funeral by Sir E. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090810/52bf1708/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:59:46 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 11 01:12:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] a song In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908102359y6f4d404dvba900b7722c8cbd1@mail.gmail.com> Thank you, it is... I could not remember the words, rain instead of wind, great that I know now. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 4:20 AM, wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2009 1:11:28 PM Central Daylight Time, > anny.ballardini@gmail.com writes: > > > > Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who sang it? > The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the rain....): > http://www.myattphoto.com/pageh.html > > thank you, Anny > > > Sung at Princess Di's funeral by Sir E. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/ab85660c/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 08:15:15 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 06:27:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Repeat offenders Message-ID: <8CBE89484E3CC47-CC8-2F9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Prison poets caught in plagiarism bid http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5995899/Prison-poets-caught-in-plagiarism-bid.html A project to encourage prisoners to explore their inner self through verse has suffered a setback after inmates were caught plagiarising poems in a bid to win a ?25 prize. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/ae523f32/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 14:05:16 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 12:18:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogged In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908092336s206dd293iea37af8b7e429503@mail.gmail.com> References: <765B2E32-216A-434D-9493-9A24B294F41E@ripon.edu> <4b65c2d70908092336s206dd293iea37af8b7e429503@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBE8C56A08C0A7-15F4-1672@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> I enjoyed that, David. Somehow your persona reminded made me think of Endicott, from the King Creole song who got it all going on for him, according to the other guy's wife... http://www.lyricsvault.eu/songs/11311.html Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogged A nice poem, the opposite of you, I'd say. Exception made for the last twist. On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 4:53 AM, David Graham wrote: An old poem of mine appeared on Robin Chapman's blog yesterday. ?Nice surprise to see it again: http://robinchapmanspoemaday.blogspot.com/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/6b15b435/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 14:15:23 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 12:27:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nerd Slam at Nat'ls Message-ID: <8CBE8C6D407200B-C90-BDB@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_books_blog/2009/08/national-poetry-slam-nerd-slam-finals.html don't hear the term "slam nerd" being thrown around too much, but it's a fact: slam poets are nerds. So despite the cursing, the drinking and yes, even a seduction poem, the yearly Nerd Slam event at the National Poetry Slam may be the nerdiest place on earth. Reserved for poetry dedicated to geek lore, this is the show that exposes the myth of the shy, soft-spoken nerd - starting with the hosts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/0e89c5a3/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 14:19:27 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 12:32:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all Message-ID: <8CBE8C76550E64B-C90-C14@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ci_13032402?nclick_check=1 St. Paul team wins national title Pioneer Press Updated:?08/10/2009 06:22:28 PM CDT After just three years on the poetry slam scene, the St. Paul Soap Boxing team has taken home the big enchilada ? a National Poetry Slam title. It's the first time a team from Minnesota has won the competition, which ended Saturday in West Palm Beach, Fla., and draws the top slam poets from across the country. It's been dominated in the past by teams from New York and the San Francisco Bay area. "It was nice to take the title away from the coasts and Texas," team coach Matthew Rucker said. Rucker said poets Khary Jackson, Sierra DeMulder, Michael Mlekoday and Kyle Myhre honed their skills through a year of intense coaching. All four were on last year's St. Paul slam team. The team is discussing a Midwest tour. For details about upcoming open mics and slams, visit soap-boxing.com. ? Trisha Collopy Winning the competition is a big boost for the Twin Cities slam and spoken word scene, Rucker said. He said it's likely to draw other slam poets to the Twin Cities and will also make it easier to attract big names to the monthly slams he runs at the Artists' Quarter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/425f3a62/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Aug 11 15:28:22 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue Aug 11 13:40:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Elton John / Bernie Taupin Song? In-Reply-To: <200908111600.n7BG04nA012459@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908111600.n7BG04nA012459@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 11, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Anny wrote: > > Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who > sang it? > The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the > rain....): I see no "in the rain" when I open the site, but I do hear "Candle in the Wind." SPX > > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:50:27 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 11 16:02:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogged In-Reply-To: <8CBE8C56A08C0A7-15F4-1672@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> References: <765B2E32-216A-434D-9493-9A24B294F41E@ripon.edu> <4b65c2d70908092336s206dd293iea37af8b7e429503@mail.gmail.com> <8CBE8C56A08C0A7-15F4-1672@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908111450s5895be4cwef03cd71e440919@mail.gmail.com> and the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIYjAxj6ss0 On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:05 PM, wrote: > I enjoyed that, David. Somehow your persona reminded made me think of > Endicott, from the King Creole song > who got it all going on for him, according to the other guy's wife... > http://www.lyricsvault.eu/songs/11311.html > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 2:36 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogged > > A nice poem, the opposite of you, I'd say. Exception made for the last > twist. > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 4:53 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> An old poem of mine appeared on Robin Chapman's blog yesterday. Nice >> surprise to see it again: >> http://robinchapmanspoemaday.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/d8145ef5/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:54:23 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 11 16:06:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Elton John / Bernie Taupin Song? In-Reply-To: References: <200908111600.n7BG04nA012459@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908111454k4db999edjbca8418767fd61f2@mail.gmail.com> That is great Barry, yes, it is Candle in the Wind, I had "in the rain" in my mind, that is why I could not make it out any more. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Anny wrote: > >> >> Is there anybody who can remember the title of this song and who sang it? >> The song starts right there when you open this page (... in the rain....): >> > > I see no "in the rain" when I open the site, but I do hear "Candle in the > Wind." > > SPX > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/2c540078/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:55:18 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 11 16:07:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all In-Reply-To: <8CBE8C76550E64B-C90-C14@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBE8C76550E64B-C90-C14@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908111455t4c7c2ce2hcfe95260eba97517@mail.gmail.com> The link doesn't work here. St. Paul? That is all Garrison's doing then...the little they might like it. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM, wrote: > http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ci_13032402?nclick_check=1 > > St. Paul team wins national title > Pioneer Press > Updated: 08/10/2009 06:22:28 PM CDT > > After just thr ee years on the poetry slam scene, the St. Paul Soap > Boxing team has taken home the big enchilada ? a National Poetry Slam title. > It's the first time a team from Minnesota has won the competition, which > ended Saturday in West Palm Beach, Fla., and draws the top slam poets from > across the country. It's been dominated in the past by teams from New York > and the San Francisco Bay area. "It was nice to take the title away from the > coasts and Texas," team coach Matthew Rucker said. Rucker said poets > Khary Jackson, Sierra DeMulder, Michael Mlekoday and Kyle Myhre honed their > skills through a year of intense coaching. All four were on last year's St. > Paul slam team. The team is discussing a Midwest tour. For details about > upcoming open mics and slams, visit soap-boxing.com. ? Trisha Collopy Winning > the competition is a big boost for the Twin Cities slam and spoken word > scene, Rucker said. He said it's likely to draw other slam poets to the Twin > Cities and will also make it easier to attract big names to the monthly > slams he runs at the Artists' Quarter. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/b24dfa9e/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 21:36:03 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 19:48:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908111455t4c7c2ce2hcfe95260eba97517@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBE8C76550E64B-C90-C14@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908111455t4c7c2ce2hcfe95260eba97517@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBE90463796B64-B0C-2E7B@webmail-dg05.sysops.aol.com> Anny, try this one... http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all The link doesn't work here. St. Paul? That is all Garrison's doing then...the little they might like it. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM, wrote: http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ci_13032402?nclick_check=1 ? St. Paul team wins national title Pioneer Press Updated:?08/10/2009 06:22:28 PM CDT After just thr ee years on the poetry slam scene, the St. Paul Soap Boxing team has taken home the big enchilada ? a National Poetry Slam title. It's the first time a team from Minnesota has won the competition, which ended Saturday in West Palm Beach, Fla., and draws the top slam poets from across the country. It's been dominated in the past by teams from New York and the San Francisco Bay area. "It was nice to take the title away from the coasts and Texas," team coach Matthew Rucker said. ? Rucker said poets Khary Jackson, Sierra DeMulder, Michael Mlekoday and Kyle Myhre honed their skills through a year of intense coaching. All four were on last year's St. Paul slam team. The team is discussing a Midwest tour. ? For details about upcoming open mics and slams, visit soap-boxing.com. ? Trisha Collopy Winning the competition is a big boost for the Twin Cities slam and spoken word scene, Rucker said.=2 0He said it's likely to draw other slam poets to the Twin Cities and will also make it easier to attract big names to the monthly slams he runs at the Artists' Quarter. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/28e15813/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 21:41:53 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 19:54:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all In-Reply-To: <8CBE90463796B64-B0C-2E7B@webmail-dg05.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBE8C76550E64B-C90-C14@webmail-db09.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70908111455t4c7c2ce2hcfe95260eba97517@mail.gmail.com> <8CBE90463796B64-B0C-2E7B@webmail-dg05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBE905341B4643-B0C-2EB8@webmail-dg05.sysops.aol.com> ?BTW...I love their name: St. Paul Soap Boxing Team. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all Anny, try this one... http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] St. Paul wins it all The link doesn't work here. St. Paul? That is all Garrison's doing then...the little they might like it. On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM, wrote: http://www.twincities.com/entertainment/ci_13032402?nclick_check=1 ? St. Paul team wins national title Pioneer Press Updated:?08/10/2009 06:22:28 PM CDT After just thr ee years on the poetry slam scene, the St. Paul Soap Boxing team has taken home the big enchilada ? a National Poetry Slam title. It's the first time a team from Minnesota has won the competition, w hich ended Saturday in West Palm Beach, Fla., and draws the top slam poets from across the country. It's been dominated in the past by teams from New York and the San Francisco Bay area. "It was nice to take the title away from the coasts and Texas," team coach Matthew Rucker said. ? Rucker said poets Khary Jackson, Sierra DeMulder, Michael Mlekoday and Kyle Myhre honed their skills through a year of intense coaching. All four were on last year's St. Paul slam team. The team is discussing a=2 0Midwest tour. ? For details about upcoming open mics and slams, visit soap-boxing.com. ? Trisha Collopy Winning the competition is a big boost for the Twin Cities slam and spoken word scene, Rucker said. He said it's likely to draw other slam poets to the Twin Cities and will also make it easier to attract big names to the monthly slams he runs at the Artists' Quarter. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/9baeb006/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 11 22:32:38 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 20:45:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] new Goldbarth Message-ID: <8CBE90C4AE8D6B8-6D4-17C2@MBLK-M42.sysops.aol.com> http://www.theweekender.com/books/The_poetry_of_life_08-11-2009.html The poems in the book are divided by eight sectional topics that are inspired by a life of writing, learning and teaching. The first chapter, ?Love And Death On The Cosmic Odometer: 1,? is suitably placed because it contains some of the most revealing poems that create an emotional connection between the reader and narrator. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090811/d4b780e0/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Aug 12 00:13:02 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue Aug 11 22:25:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Julia In-Reply-To: <200908111600.n7BG04nA012459@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908111600.n7BG04nA012459@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5ACEE400-AE05-4098-B69D-1DB40D3D68A9@verizon.net> I want to urge y'all to see a film that knocked me out. Please put JULIE & JULIA on your list if you haven't already. I write about it briefly on my poetry blog today, with a poem to follow that mentions Julia in passing. http://barryspacks.blogspot.com/ art is long, SPX From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 12 01:11:49 2009 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) Date: Tue Aug 11 23:24:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Julia Message-ID: In a message dated 8/11/2009 11:13:32 PM Central Daylight Time, barry.spacks@verizon.net writes: > > I want to urge y'all to see a film that knocked me out. > Please put JULIE &JULIA on your list if you haven't already. > > I write about it briefly on my poetry blog today, with a > poem to follow that mentions Julia in passing. > > http://barryspacks.blogspot.com/ > I want that duck! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090812/db887252/attachment.html From hudson.jade at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 12:31:36 2009 From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson) Date: Wed Aug 12 10:43:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ToxicPoetry.com E-book Exhibition1 Message-ID: <943e8fc0908120931w7bfe8ae2r76e6bd83f3836b11@mail.gmail.com> Dear Poets, We have just constructed our first exhibition of mp3 poetry. Really, check it out. We'd be downright depressed if you didn't. Plus, it's free. When viewing Exhibition 1, please remember that the table of contents leads you to separate sections of the edition (there are 6 sections altogether). If you want to see artists that are not in 1-1, but in 1-3 or 1-4, etc., you need to click the artist name (in 1-1) to be transported to the section in which the artist is located. We're also including links to each individual section (for additional convenience). Here is a link to Exhibition 1-1 (where the first section as well as the table of contents can be found): http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/bc2498b9#/bc2498b9/1 Here are links to the additional 5 sections Section 2: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/bc25b83d#/bc25b83d/1 Section 3: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b0a2b9f9#/b0a2b9f9/1 Section 4: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/9020b5eb#/9020b5eb/1 Section 5: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/902494eb#/902494eb/1 Section 6: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b42498b9#/b42498b9/1 If you would like to be advertised in the upcoming issue, e-mail Editors@ToxicPoetry.com and include "advertising" in the subject line. If you would like to crosslink, follow the same e-mail procedure, only include "crosslink" in the subject line. Toxic Toasts, Jade Hudson & Nathan Kinsman Co-Editors of ToxicPoetry.com *P.S. If you have trouble loading the player, there are three things that we suggest: * *Downloading the adobe software that is on the initial screen, viewing the file with Firefox instead of Explorer, and or refreshing the section.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090812/6e6e6967/attachment.html From seamascain at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:47:03 2009 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Thu Aug 13 08:59:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ... the art of disappearing Message-ID: <6f1e9ee40908130747x7769cd0k1d979f55c68212f0@mail.gmail.com> _______________ Two new books by the Irish poet Gabriel Rosenstock, published by CSP (Cambridge Scholars Publishing) will be launched in D?n Laoghaire, County Dublin, Ireland on 29 August 2009 in the Kingston Suite of the Royal Marine Hotel at 7:00 p.m. This event is a part of the Festival of World Cultures in D?n Laoghaire. Rosenstock's books are titled "Haiku Enlightenment" & "Haiku, the Gentle Art of Disappearing." They are the poets contemplations & musings about haiku & the form(s) of haiku. Early versions of these texts were serialised in the electronic journal World Haiku Review. Gabriel Rosenstock believes that "there is something going on in the literary & artistic energies at the eastern & western extremes of Europe which have shamanistic/druidic forces as part of their DNA, so to speak, energies that produce a vital poetry that is not a commentary on life, as such, but life itself, the living, breathing spirit ... one of the reasons I love haiku is because it offers an entrance into the pervading spirit of a place, a temenos ..." With this e-announcement, there is a way of getting a 50% reduction for advance orders of these new books by Rosenstock! Though this 50% off will be good only up to the August 29th launch-event in Ireland. To claim the 50% discount on either or both titles, orders can be made online at the CSP (Cambridge Scholars Publishing) web-site ... 1.) "Haiku Enlightenment" http://www.c-s-p.org/Flyers/Haiku-Enlightenment1-4438-0521-1.htm 2.) "The Gentle Art of Disappearing" http://www.c-s-p.org/Flyers/Haiku--The-Gentle-Art-of-Disappearing1-4438-1133-5.htm The customer should select the title, add it to the shopping basket, & then use the following: Login: (blank) Password: haiku50% Alternatively, purchases can be made directly through Vlatka Kolic of Cambridge Scholars Publishing at vkolic@c-s-p.org or orders@c-s-p.org Disappearingly, S?amas Cain http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain _______________ From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 13 12:13:13 2009 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Thu Aug 13 10:25:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] ravishing Stevens at Harriet In-Reply-To: <6f1e9ee40908130747x7769cd0k1d979f55c68212f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f1e9ee40908130747x7769cd0k1d979f55c68212f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90E01F7EA0ED49EC95E7B0A9E0CEF96D@GlassCastle> Jim F., you and Dennis Barone (your co-conspirator on the Stevens book) might be interested in this: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/08/4632/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090813/944c8002/winmail.bin From jforjames at aol.com Thu Aug 13 12:57:46 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Aug 13 11:10:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Walt during the Civil War In-Reply-To: <0.0.0.DC6.1CA1C17EB6188C6.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> References: <0.0.0.DC6.1CA1C17EB6188C6.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> Message-ID: <8CBEA4E50D8CEB2-13EC-198@WEBMAIL-MB19.sysops.aol.com> Subject: UC Press eNews for J Finnegan - August 13, 2009 Having difficulty viewing this email? View it using your web browser by clicking here. August 2009 Dear eNews Subscriber, The following is an email update?based on the interests chosen in your profile.?To ensure you continue to receive emails that ONLY match your preferences, be sure to edit your profile to refine what we send you. Walt Whitman and the Civil War: America's Poet during the Lost Years of 1860-1862 Ted Genoways In this penetrating, original, and beautifully written book, Ted Genoways reconstructs those forgotten yearsocating Whitman directly through unpublished letters and never-before-seen manuscripts, as well as mapping his associations through rare period newspapers and magazines in which he published. Genoways's account fills a major gap in Whitman's biography and debunks the myth that Whitman was unaffected by the country's march to war. 224 pages, 6 x 9", 11 b/w photographs cloth?? 978-0-520-25906-5? $24.95 Buy Now If you are interested in an evaluation or desk copy of one of the titles above, please read our books for course use policy. UC Press is concerned about your privacy. We do not rent, sell or exchange email addresses. ?2009 UC Press. All rights reserved. University of California Press, 2120 Berkeley Way, Berkeley, CA 94704-1012 You are subscribed using the following email address: jforjames@aol.com. If you wish to change your selections or unsubscribe altogether, click below. :: Tailor your profile settings... :: Forward this to a friend... :: To be removed, use this one-click unsubscribe link... :: Not yet signed up? Go here... :: View our privacy policy... TailoredMail is a leading email & RSS broadcasting service helping organizations create highly tailored and relevant communications. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090813/51581d16/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Aug 13 18:52:37 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Aug 13 17:04:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] out of prison and into poetry Message-ID: <8CBEA7FE34373D4-BA8-F10@FWM-D15.sysops.aol.com> http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2009-08-12-betts-freedom_N.htm WASHINGTON ? R. Dwayne Betts is having coffee at Busboys and Poets, a coffeehouse/bookstore/neighborhood hangout here in the trendy U Street area. He's talking about his wife, his 20-month-old baby boy, his freshly minted degree from the University of Maryland and his new book, A Question of Freedom: A Memoir of Learning, Survival and Coming of Age in Prison (Avery, $23). At 16, Betts was sent to prison for nine years. Now 28, he is living such a radically different life even he is astonished by how far he has traveled. "I still remember my mom crying in the courtroom when I was sentenced," he says. "I didn't want that image to be the only thing I remembered the rest of my life." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090813/fd53b66d/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 14:35:01 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri Aug 14 12:46:50 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lovely Poetry Action elsewhere & other news around here upcoming ... Message-ID: <92458.90732.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Lovely poetry action in Warsaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VJ03FBhoy0 ~~~ New Ben Gibbard Project, "One Fast Move or I'm Gone: Kerouac's Big Sur" http://www.deathcabforcutie.com/news/367/new_ben_gibbard_project,_one_f ~~~ FOGGED CLARITY A Manhattan night out - worth it's weight (plus tickets are moving fast): Five sets of music & two readings: ? Samantha Farrell Strand of Oaks Karisa Wilson Amir Darzi Michael Tyrell Amy King Judson Claiborne ? ? Sunday, September 13, 2009 @ 9 pm ? The Living Room 154 Ludlow St. New York, NY 10002 ? ? INFO -- http://www.livingroomny.com/artist/fogged-clarity TICKETS -- http://foggedclarity.com/? ? ? ** I?ll be reading from my new book, Slaves to do These Things. ~~~~ STAIN OF POETRY?? Saturday, August 22nd @ 7 p.m. ? ~ Emily Kendal Frey, Phil Memmer, Jeni ?truck darling? Olin, Zachary Schomburg, JodiAnn Stevenson & Janaka Stucky ? ? Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 ? J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ? ? ? Pour some poems on your steamy late August with Emily Kendal Frey, Phil Memmer, Jeni ?truck darling? Olin, Zachary Schomburg, JodiAnn Stevenson & Janaka Stucky! ? Emily Kendal Frey lives in Portland, Oregon and teaches at Portland Community College. She is the author of AIRPORT (Blue Hour Press, 2009). ? Philip Memmer is the author of three collections of poems: Lucifer: A Hagiography, winner of the 2008 Idaho Prize for Poetry; Threat of Pleasure, winner of the 2008 Adirondack Literary Award for Poetry, and Sweetheart, Baby, Darling. His work has been published in many journals, including Poetry Magazine, Epoch, and Mid-American Review, and has been included in several anthologies, including 180 More: Extraordinary Poems for Every Day and Don?t Leave Hungry: Fifty Years of Southern Poetry Review. ? Truck Darling (published as ?Jeni Olin?) lives in NYC where she rages in posh isolation with her dog named Good Times. Truck received her BA & MFA from Naropa University. Her first full-length book BLUE COLLAR HOLIDAY was published by Hanging Loose in 2005. Her most recent publication is a chapbook of pharmaceutical sonnets about antidepressants titled THE PILL BOOK from Faux Press, 2008. Her next book called HOLD TIGHT! will be published this April 2010 by Hanging Loose. ? Zachary Schomburg is the author of Scary, No Scary (Black Ocean 2009) and The Man Suit (Black Ocean 2007), and the co-editor of Octopus Magazine and Octopus Books. A collaborative chapbook with Emily Kendal Frey called Team Sad will be published by Cinematheque Press in the fall. He lives in Portland, OR. ? JodiAnn Stevenson makes her home in Bay City, Michigan where she is an Assistant Professor of writing and poetry at Delta College. She founded Binge Press, to showcase women?s work, in 2004 and 27 rue de fleures, an online journal of women?s poetries in 2005. Her first collection of poetry, The Procedure, was published in the fall of 2006 by March Street Press. Her second collection of poetry, We, the Emperors was a finalist in the Gertrude Press Chapbook Award in 2008. An excerpt of her Kamikaze Death Poetry is forthcoming in the ?faux histories? issue of SPECS. Her recent blog project, Ms. Fish, the relentless, can be found at: http://msfishtherelentless.blogspot.com. Some of her visual poetry resides at www.bowlofmilk.com. ? Janaka Stucky is practicing the perfection of effort while working on silent relationships with knives, hairpins, & a history of tentacles. Other passions include whiskey and pugilism. He is also the Publisher of Black Ocean and its literary magazine, Handsome. Some of his poems have appeared in Cannibal, Denver Quarterly, Fence, Free Verse, No Tell Motel, North American Review, Redivider and VOLT. ? ~ ? Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 ? J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ? ~ ? Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi? ? ? INFO -- http://stainofpoetry.com/ ? RSVP -- http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=108933376886 ? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090814/b4d4c2dc/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 14:57:40 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri Aug 14 13:09:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] PLEASE POST YOUR POEM FOR SEPTEMBER'S GOODREADS' CONTEST Message-ID: <25238.55622.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> PLEASE POST YOUR POEM FOR SEPTEMBER'S GOODREADS' CONTEST http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/193301-please-post-your-poem-for-september-s-goodreads-contest Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090814/87ff308c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 03:15:11 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 15 01:26:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from The Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908150015q763d01a5qcb9129c6d6b075bc@mail.gmail.com> Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl by Dana Gioia She wasn't looking when they took this picture: sitting on the grass in her bare feet wearing a cotton dress, she stares off to the side watching something on the lawn the camera didn't catch. What was it? A ladybug? A flower? Judging from her expression, possibly nothing at all, or else the lawn was like a mirror, and she sat watching herself, wondering who she was and how she came to be there sitting in this backyard, wearing a cheap, white dress, imagining that tomorrow would be like all her yesterdays, while her parents chatted and watched, as I do years later, too distantly to interfere. "Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl" by Dana Gioia, from *Daily Horoscope*. ? Graywolf Press, 1986. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/4ead4701/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 15 07:23:05 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 15 04:31:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from The Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908150015q763d01a5qcb9129c6d6b075bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908150015q763d01a5qcb9129c6d6b075bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A869A99.5030500@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl > > by Dana Gioia > > > She wasn't looking > when they took this picture: > sitting on the grass > in her bare feet > wearing a cotton dress, > she stares off to the side > watching something on the lawn > the camera didn't catch. > What was it? > A ladybug? A flower? > Judging from her expression, > possibly nothing at all, > or else > the lawn was like a mirror, > and she sat watching herself, > wondering who she was > and how she came to be there > sitting in this backyard, > wearing a cheap, white dress, > imagining that tomorrow > would be like all her yesterdays, > while her parents chatted > and watched, as I do > years later, > too distantly to interfere. > > "Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl" by Dana Gioia, from /Daily > Horoscope/. ? Graywolf Press, 1986. Reprinted with permission. (buy > now > ) > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them did a better job. I would call this poem the epitome of the Iowa Plaintext Lyric Poem at its most mediocre. Bad Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/07502599/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 07:11:23 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 15 05:23:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] from The Writer's Almanac In-Reply-To: <4A869A99.5030500@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70908150015q763d01a5qcb9129c6d6b075bc@mail.gmail.com> <4A869A99.5030500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908150411l656c445fh346263d82793b8d4@mail.gmail.com> Hey kids, BG is alive and kicking out well ! Ah the strength of Nature, I am in respectful awe blessings - as my dearest correspondents say, Anny On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl > > by Dana Gioia > > She wasn't looking > when they took this picture: > sitting on the grass > in her bare feet > wearing a cotton dress, > she stares off to the side > watching something on the lawn > the camera didn't catch. > What was it? > A ladybug? A flower? > Judging from her expression, > possibly nothing at all, > or else > the lawn was like a mirror, > and she sat watching herself, > wondering who she was > and how she came to be there > sitting in this backyard, > wearing a cheap, white dress, > imagining that tomorrow > would be like all her yesterdays, > while her parents chatted > and watched, as I do > years later, > too distantly to interfere. > > "Photograph of My Mother as a Young Girl" by Dana Gioia, from *Daily > Horoscope*. ? Graywolf Press, 1986. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) > > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this very > subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them did a > better job. I would call this poem the epitome of the Iowa Plaintext Lyric > Poem at its most mediocre. > > Bad Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/324b701e/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 09:50:07 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 15 08:01:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Death Panel Sonnet Message-ID: Death Panel Sonnet Obama killed my baby. Obama killed me, baby. Obama killed my gramma, my grampa, my mama. Obama killed my papa, my sista, my brudda. Obama killed my tax cut. Obama killed my bonus. Obama killed my tax haven. Obama killed my medicare. Obama killed my pay raise. Obama killed my clunker. Obama killed the GOP. Obama killed democracy. Obama killed the USA. Obama killed me, baby. --HJ Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/a72b9469/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Aug 15 14:09:23 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat Aug 15 12:21:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:00 AM, our Bob wrote: Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of > them > did a better job. quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" endlessly, SPX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/078d18e9/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 15 21:59:36 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net) Date: Sat Aug 15 20:11:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob Message-ID: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:00 AM, our Bob wrote: > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this >> very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them >> did a better job. > > quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: > > "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" 1. So we should accept all poems as wonderful? And watch all of them, not just the ones in front? 2. Of course, it's a horse race. Some poets get tripe like Gioia's poem into anthologies published in editions, hardbound editions, of more than one or two hundred copies, some poets don't. You can say that's not a horse race, but not sanely. 3. Easy for a grad of Oxford (or Cambridge) with the Establishment behind him to say it's not a horse race. 4. Evaluation of the things in the universe is something no one can escape doing. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 00:23:22 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 15 22:34:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob In-Reply-To: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> References: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Quite right, Bob. I can't walk a block without determining which tree on it is the best. I can't eat a meal without deciding how it stacks up against every other meal I've had. And, by the way, the last full moon was really first rate. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org > 4. Evaluation of the things in the universe is something no one can escape > doing. > > --Bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090815/cc37d4a9/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Aug 16 20:47:45 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 16 18:59:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob In-Reply-To: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> References: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CBECEB787235C2-16C8-52C7@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> I'll let Wislawa answer Bob for me... Finnegan - "Astonishing" is an epithet concealing a logical trap. We're astonished, after all, by things that deviate from some well-known and universally acknowledged norm, from an obviousness we've grown accustomed to. Granted, in daily speech, where we don't stop to consider every word, we all use phrases like "the ordinary world," "ordinary life," "the ordinary course of events." ... But in the language of poetry, where every word is weighed, nothing is usual or normal. Not a single stone and not a single cloud above it. Not a single day and not a single night after it. And above all, not a single existence, not anyone's existence in this world." ? ?Wislawa Szymborska from her Nobel Prize acceptance addresss -----Original Message----- From: bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob Barry Spacks wrote: On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:00 AM, our Bob wrote: Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > did a better job. quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" 1. So we should accept all poems as wonderful? And watch all of them, not just he ones in front? 2. Of course, it's a horse race. Some poets get tripe like Gioia's=2 0poem into nthologies ublished in editions, hardbound editions, of more than one or two hundred opies, some poets on't. You can say that's not a horse race, but not sanely. 3. Easy for a grad of Oxford (or Cambridge) with the Establishment behind him to ay it's not a orse race. 4. Evaluation of the things in the universe is something no one can escape oing. --Bob ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090816/a7bc7092/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Aug 16 21:19:43 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 16 19:31:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wergle Flomp Humor Poetry Contest Message-ID: <8CBECEFEF7151F6-16C8-53F5@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> http://www.prweb.com/releases/free_poetry/contest/prweb2680914.htm Massachusetts poet "Randy Cousteau" is the winner of the eighth annual Wergle Flomp Humor Poetry Contest, one of today's largest prizes for humor poetry. Over $3,300 was awarded in all, including $1,359 for the first-place entrant. The (R-rated) winning entry, "The Felching of the Oct'pus", is published along with 26 other winners and finalists at http://www.winningwriters.com/contests/wergle/2009/we09_pastwinners.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090816/8cadcc9b/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 16 23:43:17 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 16 20:50:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob In-Reply-To: <8CBECEB787235C2-16C8-52C7@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> References: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> <8CBECEB787235C2-16C8-52C7@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A88D1D5.4000306@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I'll let Wislawa answer Bob for me... > Finnegan > - > "Astonishing" is an epithet concealing a logical trap. We're > astonished, after all, by things that deviate from some well-known and > universally acknowledged norm, from an obviousness we've grown > accustomed to. Granted, in daily speech, where we don't stop to > consider every word, we all use phrases like "the ordinary world," > "ordinary life," "the ordinary course of events." ... But in the > language of poetry, where every word is weighed, nothing is usual or > normal. Not a single stone and not a single cloud above it. Not a > single day and not a single night after it. And above all, not a > single existence, not anyone's existence in this world." > > ?Wislawa Szymborska > from her Nobel Prize acceptance addresss > Nothing in a poem is usual or normal? So I'm wrong to say everything in Gioia's poem is usual and normal? Don't make no sense to me. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090816/e4a542c8/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 17 00:26:40 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun Aug 16 22:38:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob In-Reply-To: <8CBECEB787235C2-16C8-52C7@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> References: <2f3e8466ea354e6d981d1cea481cd1ea.bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> <8CBECEB787235C2-16C8-52C7@MBLK-M36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908162126i29fb5be7xd3eefe20d7035aa8@mail.gmail.com> My thanks, James, for giving this from one of my most favourite poets. I hadn't read it before, and find her always bright surprises all over again! Best, Judy 2009/8/16 > I'll let Wislawa answer Bob for me... > Finnegan > - > "Astonishing" is an epithet concealing a logical trap. We're astonished, > after all, by things that deviate from some well-known and universally > acknowledged norm, from an obviousness we've grown accustomed to. Granted, > in daily speech, where we don't stop to consider every word, we all use > phrases like "the ordinary world," "ordinary life," "the ordinary course of > events." ... But in the language of poetry, where every word is weighed, > nothing is usual or normal. Not a single stone and not a single cloud above > it. Not a single day and not a single night after it. And above all, not a > single existence, not anyone's existence in this world." > > ?Wislawa Szymborska > from her Nobel Prize acceptance addresss > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:59 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes and Bad Bob > > Barry Spacks wrote: > > > > On Aug 15, 2009, at 9:00 AM, our Bob wrote: > > > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > >> very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > >> did a better job. > > > > quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: > > > > "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" > > 1. So we should accept all poems as wonderful? And watch all of them, not just > the ones in front? > > 2. Of course, it's a horse race. Some poets get tripe like Gioia's poem into > anthologies > published in editions, hardbound editions, of more than one or two hundred > copies, some poets > don't. You can say that's not a horse race, but not sanely. > > 3. Easy for a grad of Oxford (or Cambridge) with the Establishment behind him to > say it's not a > horse race. > > 4. Evaluation of the things in the universe is something no one can escape > doing. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/84c545e1/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 06:20:04 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 04:31:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908170320j5fe8444ax1b13d28033c67ed7@mail.gmail.com> Poetry is dead. Poetry is elitist. Poetry is inaccessible, difficult, born out of sadness. by Rosemarie Domrowski http://www.inklessmagazine.com/Inkless/Poetry_Forums/Entries/2009/8/4_Poetry_is_dead.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/5574aa70/attachment.html From hudson.jade at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 09:47:01 2009 From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson) Date: Mon Aug 17 07:58:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] 100% Toxic Deliciousness Message-ID: <943e8fc0908170647l48d9cad4ibfa16e7c5724f32a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, ToxicPoetry Exhibition 1 is still *completely* awesome and *completely* free to read. We hope you will give it a look/listen. Here is a link to the issue: http://site.toxicpoetry.com/E-Book.php Enjoy, Jade Hudson ToxicPoetry Editor & Webmaster -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/0caae9d4/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Mon Aug 17 12:33:55 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 17 10:45:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> Message-ID: Or it *is* a horse race and having seen the poem pull up short Bob's ready to put poor Gioia down... the horror of the poetry race and its hard-hearted referees! c On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Barry Spacks wrote: > > ??quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: > "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:55:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 11:07:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908170955g619a7f24q6dbdb99d674daa92@mail.gmail.com> FWEEEEEEEEEEEE Here goes the whistle! On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > Or it *is* a horse race and having seen the poem pull up short Bob's > ready to put poor Gioia down... the horror of the poetry race and its > hard-hearted referees! > > c > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Barry Spacks > wrote: > > > > quoting Auden (roughly) from a Q & A: > > "For God's sake, young man, it is not a horse race!" > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/cc00e989/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:02:28 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 11:14:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] carTOON Time! Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171002m1ead9f21k69bd67ac2663c17b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.newyorker.com/humor/issuecartoons/2009/08/24/cartoons_20090817?slide=5#showHeader -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/9ce4a92c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:11:57 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 11:23:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women in Transit: Negotiating Public/Private Environments Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171011h12e5dd49r86d2c69b0cb11370@mail.gmail.com> Women in Transit: Negotiating Public/Private Environments Contributions are sought for a book on women in spaces of transit in Anglo-American literature from 1860 to the present day. The projected edited book sets out to explore representations in literature of the presence of women in spaces of transit such as trains, hotels, bedsits, caf?s, hospitals, parks, paths, rivers, seas etc. in which the familiar distinction between public and private space is eroded or suspended. Among the questions we would like to address are the following: - the significance that spaces of transit have had in shaping women?s identities and ways of expression; - the ways in which women have negotiated their presence in spaces of transit, with the opportunities, surprises and dangers these spaces may entail; - the currency of the public/private dichotomy and the equation public/male: private/female implicit in the ideology of ?separate spheres?, a framework which has proved to be useful but limiting in the understanding of gender relations. The book is intended as a follow-on to *Inside Out: Women negotiating, subverting, appropriating public and private space*, eds. Teresa G?mez Reus and Ar?nzazu Usanizaga (Amsterdam: Rodopi, 2008). If you are interested in contributing a chapter of 7000 words, please send an extended abstract (700-900 words) of your proposed essay, together with a brief CV, to Teresa Gomez, University of Alicante, Spain. Deadline for submissions: 15 January 2010. Email: mt.gomez@ua.es -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/66d2c448/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:20:10 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 11:31:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete Formalist Poetry Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> Patrick Playter Hartigan: I have conceived the term Concrete Formalist Poetry as a first means to describe the poetry I write and to provide context for the specific form I write in, which others call a block form, but which I choose to call a box form, which uses any one of the type fonts, where the number of characters in the first line is repeated throughout the poem, which may be separable in strophes, to form a single or multiple block (or box) shape. [...] http://www.facebook.com/patrick.playter.hartigan#/group.php?gid=24270209837 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/d143dc88/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 14:27:58 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 11:36:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Or it *is* a horse race and having seen the poem pull up short Bob's > ready to put poor Gioia down... the horror of the poetry race and its > hard-hearted referees! > > c Actually what happened, Chris, is that my friend Anny found a poem she thought worthy of posting, thus implicitly saying, "I like this poem." Since I have the strange view that if favorable opinions are allowed, unfavorable opinions should be, too, I then opined that I did not like the poem. Then Barry quoted Auden about poems' not competing against each other (as horses do in races)--all poems apparently being winners. I then showed why his and Auden's view was ridiculously stupid--with my usual scorn for the gatekeepers, who are slaves of the status a hundred years ago, not hard-hearted--implied. Meanwhile, "poor" Gioia continued his trips to the bank, and onto Important Pages, and will no doubt reappear even here at New-Poetry while Bad Bob . . . well, Bad Bob may soon be getting the food stamps he applied for today. --Bad Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 14:01:14 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 12:12:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171101s6a75f634nef9af6ff90442523@mail.gmail.com> If you wanted to break my heart Bob, ... You are not the only one, I received a mail this morning by Karl Young. The sun outside nearly blinded me and I thought that the day was so beautiful. On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > >> Or it *is* a horse race and having seen the poem pull up short Bob's >> ready to put poor Gioia down... the horror of the poetry race and its >> hard-hearted referees! >> >> c >> > Actually what happened, Chris, is that my friend Anny found a poem she > thought worthy of posting, thus implicitly saying, "I like this poem." > Since I have the strange view that if favorable opinions are allowed, > unfavorable opinions should be, too, I then opined that I did not like the > poem. Then Barry quoted Auden about poems' not competing against each other > (as horses do in races)--all poems apparently being winners. I then showed > why his and Auden's view was ridiculously stupid--with my usual scorn for > the gatekeepers, who are slaves of the status a hundred years ago, not > hard-hearted--implied. Meanwhile, "poor" Gioia continued his trips to the > bank, and onto Important Pages, and will no doubt reappear even here at > New-Poetry while Bad Bob . . . well, Bad Bob may soon be getting the food > stamps he applied for today. > > --Bad Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/d0bddac5/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 15:07:31 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 12:15:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete Formalist Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A89AA73.5000409@nut-n-but.net> Hey, thanks for finding Patrick Playter Hartigan's comments and bringing it to our attention, Anny. I'm almost ready to forgive you for helping poor Gioia's poetry career. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 14:14:04 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 17 12:25:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete Formalist Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No fair. Only Bob is allowed to do this sort of thing. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Patrick Playter Hartigan: > > I have conceived the term Concrete Formalist Poetry as a first means to > describe the poetry I write and to provide context for the specific form I > write in, which others call a block form, but which I choose to call a box > form, which uses any one of the type fonts, where the number of characters > in the first line is repeated throughout the poem, which may be separable in > strophes, to form a single or multiple block (or box) shape. > [...] > > http://www.facebook.com/patrick.playter.hartigan#/group.php?gid=24270209837 > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/f8ba3294/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon Aug 17 14:45:21 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon Aug 17 12:56:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote: > all poems apparently being winners. doesn't follow (strawman argument). I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does, our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?) future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be declared the WINNAH?) > I quote him for reference: Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them did a better job. Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes! SPX From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:04:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 13:16:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171204y6b1396bfs4f147d497131aa54@mail.gmail.com> Hi Barry, I liked it for its weakness, for its allusion to nothingness, right for its void. He is describing a picture, and to accept it as a poem I worked to imagine that she was caught by the sight of her son writing a poem on her, unconsciously indeed. The mastery in this poem is that Gioia does not hint to anything, I had to perceive the levity of the unseen and unspoken that stirs (crisper in French) the air. On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote: > > all poems apparently being winners. >> > > doesn't follow (strawman argument). > > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does, > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?) > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > declared > the WINNAH?) > >> >> I quote him for reference: > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > did a better job. > > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes! > > SPX > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/f7bbc73f/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 16:56:08 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 14:03:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote: > >> all poems apparently being winners. > > doesn't follow (strawman argument). Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like poetry--all losers if not. > > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does, > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?) > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > declared > the WINNAH?) >> > I quote him for reference: > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > did a better job. > > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes! How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the others writing about photographs of their mothers have done. I don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be a lot of such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to me. I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against standard themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or fresh diction. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Mon Aug 17 15:54:28 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 17 14:05:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: So, Bad Bob, are you putting the hammer to Gioia or ain't you? You can "contextualize" it all you want, but I think I got the gist right. Put the po-biz bastard down, there are plenty to take his place. Not sure you went far in refuting Auden though. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Aug 17 16:00:40 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 17 14:11:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bad Bob, you've done lost yer mind. Items not being in competition does NOT mean they must be equal. Except maybe in some circumscribed, zero-sum frame of your personal aesthetics. Oh wait, we had this argument before. I think Hal "His Pithiness" Johnson got this one right. c (enjoying this cup of coffee just as I enjoyed one yesterday and, hopefully, will enjoy one tomorrow. And not a single one of them in competition with, or detracting, from the other. I live in a rare state of grace, I guess) From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:06:56 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon Aug 17 14:18:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a0908171306r4f5a7c9ax6c5ba614a9da5682@mail.gmail.com> Not so. You are assuming a race--Barry, I, & a *whole slough of others*don't see the writing of poetry as a competition. Nothing suggest that all poems are "winners" if said poems aren't in competition. You say the poems are all "equal." I say that "equal" (in the sense that you are using the word) is a useless term in describing poetry (or art, for that matter). Yeah, yeah, I know: teaching positions, grants, notable publications, etc, etc. etc., ad absurdum. I've heard it all before. That mess doesn't mean a thing to me (to you? Maybe). And even if you *are *interested in all this money and prestige (a curious reason to write poetry, methinks, and even stranger thing upon which to dwell), why not adjust your methods? Why not join the establishment that you so openly scorn? I mean, if it's all a race, if it's all competition, doesn't it make good sense to outfit your poem to be a winner? Racing stripes? Check. Free verse? Check. Dated techniques (whatever *that *means)? Check. So, once again Bob, we have to agree to disagree. You see art as quantifiable; I don't. You see art as competition; I don't. So I suppose that our difference and disagreement lies in philosophy or world view and not in something objective, after all. I suppose your carefully-crafted narrative is just as useful as mine, however. Good luck with all that. Best, Jeff Newberry On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > B > Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they > are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong > implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like > poetry--all losers if not. > >> >> > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/96e81cb5/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:24:13 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 17 15:35:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908171424l179c137t8e7bee7e85e9c025@mail.gmail.com> who love my poetry: Dear Anny Ballardini: We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your work. Sincerely, The Editors POETRY 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 Chicago, IL 60611 312-787-7070 312-787-6650 (fax) Subscribe to POETRY today! http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They *had the chance with my work*, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I don't know if I have to party now. Cheers, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/d28419dd/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 18:45:26 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 15:53:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net><4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A89DD86.7050409@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > So, Bad Bob, are you putting the hammer to Gioia or ain't you? You can > "contextualize" it all you want, but I think I got the gist right. Put > the po-biz bastard down, there are plenty to take his place. > Sure, I put down Gioia. But do you really think I would not have treated the same poem the same way had it been by someone else (other than, maybe, at New-Poetry)? > Not sure you went far in refuting Auden though. Of course, I did. Or do you think the poems of Auden won no races, and those of Aiken lost none? --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:45:22 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 17 15:56:36 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A89DD86.7050409@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> <4A89DD86.7050409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Where horses are racing, there's bound to be a lot of horseshit on the ground. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > >> So, Bad Bob, are you putting the hammer to Gioia or ain't you? You can >> "contextualize" it all you want, but I think I got the gist right. Put >> the po-biz bastard down, there are plenty to take his place. >> >> > Sure, I put down Gioia. But do you really think I would not have treated > the same poem the same way had it been by someone else (other than, maybe, > at New-Poetry)? > > Not sure you went far in refuting Auden though. >> > Of course, I did. Or do you think the poems of Auden won no races, and > those of Aiken lost none? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/f94206d0/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 18:58:32 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 16:06:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89C3E8.9090302@nut- n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Bad Bob, you've done lost yer mind. Items not being in competition > does NOT mean they must be equal. If one poem is not equal to a second poem, it MUST be either better or worse than it, and a winner or loser in the race the too can't help but compete in. > Except maybe in some circumscribed, > zero-sum frame of your personal aesthetics. Oh wait, we had this > argument before. > Right, and you will never understand why you're wrong. Maybe a study of the laws of conservation would help, or of natural selection, or of economics, but I suspect not. > I think Hal "His Pithiness" Johnson got this one right. > > c (enjoying this cup of coffee just as I enjoyed one yesterday and, > hopefully, will enjoy one tomorrow. And not a single one of them in > competition with, or detracting, from the other. I live in a rare > state of grace, I guess) No, you live in a very common state of benightedness, I'm afraid. Do you not prefer one brand of coffee over others? If so, your consumption of that brand helps it in its competition with other brands. If not, you're still helping it in competition with tea or root beer, which you might have drunk instead. You're granting your cup of coffee a first-place medal for the time you spend drinking it over all other things you might have been occupied by. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:13:49 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 17 16:25:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Not only that, but you're favoring Planet Earth over some other, possible better planet--maybe Ork. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > >> Bad Bob, you've done lost yer mind. Items not being in competition >> does NOT mean they must be equal. >> > If one poem is not equal to a second poem, it MUST be either better or > worse than it, and a winner or loser in the race the too can't help but > compete in. > > > Except maybe in some circumscribed, >> zero-sum frame of your personal aesthetics. Oh wait, we had this >> argument before. >> >> > Right, and you will never understand why you're wrong. Maybe a study of > the laws of conservation would help, or of natural selection, or of > economics, but I suspect not. > > I think Hal "His Pithiness" Johnson got this one right. >> >> c (enjoying this cup of coffee just as I enjoyed one yesterday and, >> hopefully, will enjoy one tomorrow. And not a single one of them in >> competition with, or detracting, from the other. I live in a rare >> state of grace, I guess) >> > No, you live in a very common state of benightedness, I'm afraid. Do you > not prefer one brand of coffee over others? If so, your consumption of that > brand helps it in its competition with other brands. If not, you're still > helping it in competition with tea or root beer, which you might have drunk > instead. You're granting your cup of coffee a first-place medal for the > time you spend drinking it over all other things you might have been > occupied by. > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/0fe869bc/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 17 20:39:25 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 17 18:51:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy on her mother's death Message-ID: <8CBEDB378A244D1-C98-734@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8205913.stm Parent death affected poet's work? By Lisa Summers BBC Scotland news? ? Carol Ann Duffy said her mother's death "deafened" her Poet laureate Carol Ann Duffy has told BBC Scotland how her mother's death affected her ability to write adult poetry. She said her mother's death "deafened" her and said it was easier for her to write children's poetry instead. The Scot was speaking in Edinburgh as she launched a new show for children, "The Princess' Blankets". The fairytale poem set to music, about a princess who is always cold, is showing at The Scottish Storytelling Centre as well as the Edinburgh International Book Festival. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/f85b83f3/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 17 21:12:39 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 17 19:24:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of poetry being before and apart from?literature. It may sound strange, but I think literature is only a by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is inherent to langauge but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature.?All languages have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not an?end.?Literature is a superstructure created after the act. If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical judgment, taxonomy, schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. Dana Gioia can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of that act is whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides de facto in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, once?heard/published/read,?is literature is secondary and of less concern. Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in its own way. Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is literature of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal,?that is not as?important. That is literature and not poetry. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn Barry Spacks wrote:? >? > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:? >? >> all poems apparently being winners.? >? > doesn't follow (strawman argument).? ? Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like poetry--all losers if not.? >? > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does,? > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?)? > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common? > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > declared? > the WINNAH?)? >>? > I quote him for reference:? >? > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this? > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them? > did a better job.? >? > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes!? How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the others writing about photographs of their mothers have done.? ? I don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be a lot of such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to me.? ? I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against standard themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or fresh diction.? ? --Bob? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/c69a4d7b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 17 22:03:22 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 17 20:14:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sticky Caterpillar Still Warm in its Bed Message-ID: <8CBEDBF3301992E-C98-A0C@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Geof Huth likes Lynn Behrendt's 'Luminous Flux'... http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2009/08/sticky-caterpillar-still-warm-in-its.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/7e6c5b3c/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 19:57:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 20:19:27 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete Formalist Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70908171020j32a04e52ye48a5eca538a2d15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A89EE50.4020200@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > No fair. Only Bob is allowed to do this sort of thing. > > Hal Not exactly true, Hal--I've given Jeff and Chris permission to do it, and Barry's been doing it for years. In fact, he was the one who gave /me/ permission to do it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/c23b87bf/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 17 19:26:18 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 17 20:19:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0908171306r4f5a7c9ax6c5ba614a9da5682@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89C3E8.9090302@nut- n-but.net> <731bb17a0908171306r4f5a7c9ax6c5ba614a9da5682@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Not so. You are assuming a race--Barry, I, & a /whole slough of > others/ don't see the writing of poetry as a competition. Nothing > suggest that all poems are "winners" if said poems aren't in > competition. You say the poems are all "equal." I say that "equal" > (in the sense that you are using the word) is a useless term in > describing poetry (or art, for that matter). > > Yeah, yeah, I know: teaching positions, grants, notable publications, > etc, etc. etc., ad absurdum. I've heard it all before. Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other poems makes it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in competition with Poem B in some way. Do you want others to read your poems? If so, you HAVE to want them to read your poems instead of some others' poems, because they can't read all the poems that exist. > That mess doesn't mean a thing to me (to you? Maybe). As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to as a poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures like prize-winners get, payments for publication (however small), are things I therefore need, and must therefore compete for. So of course these things are meaningful to me. > And even if you /are /interested in all this money and prestige (a > curious reason to write poetry, methinks, and even stranger thing upon > which to dwell) Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and discussion of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me but reasons to want what I produce given a little attention. > , why not adjust your methods? Why not join the establishment that > you so openly scorn? I mean, if it's all a race, if it's all > competition, doesn't it make good sense to outfit your poem to be a > winner? Racing stripes? Check. Free verse? Check. Dated > techniques (whatever /that /means)? Check. Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first priority is making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into competition with others' poems. And there are many races going on, the one for money, the one for careers in universities, the one for quick popularity, the one for posterity's approval, etc. > > So, once again Bob, we have to agree to disagree. You see art as > quantifiable; I don't. You see art as competition; I don't. So I > suppose that our difference and disagreement lies in philosophy or > world view and not in something objective, after all. We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to /objectively/ different brains, but I won't get into that. > > I suppose your carefully-crafted narrative is just as useful as mine, > however. Good luck with all that. > > Best, > > Jeff Newberry Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except to keep my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the races they're in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/41036c38/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Mon Aug 17 22:58:45 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 17 21:10:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBEDC6EF874E60-1008-25EC@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> Gioia's poem was about?a mother not a?grandmother. The kin relationship was not my point, of course. But in Gioia's poem there is an image that relates the grass to a mirror. > the lawn was like a mirror, > and she sat watching herself, > wondering who she was > and how she came to be there > sitting in this backyard, > wearing a cheap, white dress, And in this John Yau poem, where the speaker makes?manifest(o) that?most of human interconnectedness?should not?be the subject of poetry, a mirror also is?invoked. A rhizome perhaps... http://writing.upenn.edu/library/Yau-John_In-the-Kingdom-of-Poetry.html Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of poetry being before and apart from?literature. It may sound strange, but I think literature is only a by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is inherent to langauge but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature.?All languages have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not an?end.?Literature is a superstructure created after the act. ? If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical judgment, taxonomy, schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. Dana Gioia can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of that act is whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides de facto in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, once?heard/published/read,?is literature is secondary and of less concern. ? Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in its own way. Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is literature of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal,?that is not as?important. That is literature and not poetry. ? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn Barry Spacks wrote:? >? > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:? >? >> all poems apparently being winners.? >? > doesn't follow (strawman argument).? ? Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like poetry--all losers if not.? >? > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does,? > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?)? > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common? > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > declared? > the WINNAH?)? >>? > I quote him for reference:? >? > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this? > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them? > did a better job.? >? > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes!? How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the others writing about photographs of their mothers have done.? ? I don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be a lot of such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to me.? ? I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against standard themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or fresh diction.? ? --Bob? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090817/5bff837c/attachment-0001.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Aug 18 01:12:51 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 17 23:24:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDC6EF874E60-1008-25EC@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> <8CBEDC6EF874E60-1008-25EC@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908172212o1c9c8c3dw6cbacf438954d27f@mail.gmail.com> I like the extended figure Gioia uses, James. Fresh, weird, it works rather deeply. And it doesn't matter if I like it or not, is what you seem to be saying....but that it works [worked] for Gioia. If it works for me, though, then it's literature? Is that what you mean, as well? My guess is that you mean poetry's a basic response to life that has a separate function/aim/result from 'speaking' to others [like literature, you'd say, does]. If that's what you mean, then I believe the same applies to all other forms of expression with words, including 'literature'; hence, poetry's not separate from 'literature'. If, as I [and most poets I know think] poetry is the Purest or most Essential form of word expression, then you're onto something----but it's a separate issue from whether or not the word expressions 'should be' evaluated. In other words, many of us believe that poetry's a distilled, basic, fundamental, imagistic, pre- or post-reasoned form of expressing words. We feel that all other forms embellish and extend. But that doesn't mean poetry's not evaluatable. In fact, it's more volatilely evaluatable than 'literature', as we've consistently found in our WEPD analyses and the gazillion of Bad-Bob disagreements. It's easy to not 'get' a poem's meaning, or rather, to disagree about what a poem means, whereas a novel, short story or play gives us lots more clues, creating more handles upon which we can hang our interpretation. The part of your argument that neatly seduces one's reasoning is that poetry feels hidden and personal, both in the making of it and in the poet's return to it later. It seems to speak an otherwise-impossible-to-express complex of sensations and thoughts. I think that's true----but feel it's also true, though to lesser degrees, for the other forms of words-expression. The more 'poetic' they are, though, the more they feel hidden and personal to the maker. Two lovely ironies in all this: 1] poetry DOES seek to get the reader to feel and think the way the poet feels and thinks; 2] therefore, poetry will always be evaluated. I've written many plays and begun a few novels [now enjoying that], and find that the intense experience of poetry-writing has freed me, built my confidence in my big bag of poetry tricks, deepened and extended the layers of meaning I want and can produce, and has made me less concerned about others' evaluations. Best, Judy 2009/8/17 > Gioia's poem was about a mother not a grandmother. The kin relationship was > not my point, of course. > But in Gioia's poem there is an image that relates the grass to a mirror. > > *the lawn was like a mirror, > *>* and she sat watching herself, > *>* wondering who she was > *>* and how she came to be there > *>* sitting in this backyard, > *>* wearing a cheap, white dress, > *And in this John Yau poem, where the speaker makes manifest(o) that most > of human > interconnectedness should not be the subject of poetry, a mirror also > is invoked. > A rhizome perhaps... > http://writing.upenn.edu/library/Yau-John_In-the-Kingdom-of-Poetry.html > > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames@aol.com > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 9:12 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn > > I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of > poetry > being before and apart from literature. It may sound strange, but I think > literature is only a > by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is > inherent to langauge > but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature. All > languages > have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not > an end. Literature > is a superstructure created after the act. > > If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical > judgment, taxonomy, > schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. > Dana Gioia > can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of that > act is > whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides de > facto > in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, once heard/published/read, is > literature > is secondary and of less concern. > > Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in > its own way. > Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is > literature > of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal, that is not > as important. > That is literature and not poetry. > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn > > Barry Spacks wrote: > > > > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote: > > > >> all poems apparently being winners. > > > > doesn't follow (strawman argument). > > Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they > are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong > implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like > poetry--all losers if not. > > > > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does, > > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?) > > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common > > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > > declared > > the WINNAH?) > >> > > I quote him for reference: > > > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > > did a better job. > > > > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes! > How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the > subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. I'm > not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once again, using > the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, doing SOMETHING > interestingly different from what all the others writing about photographs > of their mothers have done. > > I don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of > Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall > have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be > a lot of such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to > me. > > I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may > have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against standard > themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet > needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or > fresh diction. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/93dc9dbe/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 03:01:33 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 01:12:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908180001o42652fdeye5bea67abb04ca8c@mail.gmail.com> I find this definition highly poetical, I'm referring to the first paragraph. A rationalist could point out some flaws [poetry is language otherwise what is it?] which are dissipated with the statement that all languages have poetry. Poetry therefore becomes animated, its spirit is intrinsic to man because languages are the product of man: "Language is only a means not an end." And the Nietzschean conclusion with the idea of the superstructure or the "catafalque" as Nietzsche put it so brilliantly. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 3:12 AM, wrote: > I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of > poetry > being before and apart from literature. It may sound strange, but I think > literature is only a > by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is > inherent to langauge > but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature. All > languages > have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not > an end. Literature > is a superstructure created after the act. > > If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical > judgment, taxonomy, > schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. > Dana Gioia > can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of that > act is > whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides de > facto > in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, once heard/published/read, is > literature > is secondary and of less concern. > > Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in > its own way. > Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is > literature > of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal, that is not > as important. > That is literature and not poetry. > > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn > > Barry Spacks wrote: > > > > On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote: > > > >> all poems apparently being winners. > > > > doesn't follow (strawman argument). > > Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they > are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong > implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like > poetry--all losers if not. > > > > I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does, > > our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?) > > future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common > > (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > > declared > > the WINNAH?) > >> > > I quote him for reference: > > > > Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this > > very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of them > > did a better job. > > > > Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes! > How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the > subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. I'm > not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once again, using > the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, doing SOMETHING > interestingly different from what all the others writing about photographs > of their mothers have done. > > I don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of > Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall > have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be > a lot of such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to > me. > > I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may > have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against standard > themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet > needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or > fresh diction. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/7f121aca/attachment.html From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 18 04:55:45 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue Aug 18 03:07:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) References: <4b65c2d70908170320j5fe8444ax1b13d28033c67ed7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C4433538D8B431980F1654A71FC4CA5@SN037832120162> I like her 'only "25 million Americans' read poetry each year. The 'only' itself speaks volumes, let alone the question of what such statistics mean. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) Poetry is dead. Poetry is elitist. Poetry is inaccessible, difficult, born out of sadness. by Rosemarie Domrowski http://www.inklessmagazine.com/Inkless/Poetry_Forums/Entries/2009/8/4_Poetry_is_dead.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/6eef56f5/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 05:57:03 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 04:08:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) In-Reply-To: <4C4433538D8B431980F1654A71FC4CA5@SN037832120162> References: <4b65c2d70908170320j5fe8444ax1b13d28033c67ed7@mail.gmail.com> <4C4433538D8B431980F1654A71FC4CA5@SN037832120162> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908180257v2b57ee84qa5a6782b4786abcf@mail.gmail.com> Yes, a good reading, David. But as you know, poetry has embedded something of the Minnesanger, never the King but the singing servant! On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:55 AM, David Bircumshaw < david.bircumshaw@ntlworld.com> wrote: > I like her 'only "25 million Americans' read poetry each year. The 'only' > itself speaks volumes, let alone the question of what such statistics mean. > > > David Bircumshaw > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 11:20 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) > > Poetry is dead. Poetry is elitist. Poetry is inaccessible, difficult, > born out of sadness. > > by Rosemarie Domrowski > > http://www.inklessmagazine.com/Inkless/Poetry_Forums/Entries/2009/8/4_Poetry_is_dead.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/857f5746/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 07:24:55 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 04:31:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDC6EF874E60-1008-25EC@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89C3E8.9090302@nut- n-but.net><8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> <8CBEDC6EF874E60-1008-25EC@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A8A8F87.1080207@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > Gioia's poem was about a mother not a grandmother. The kin > relationship was not my point, of course. I didn't bother mentioning it in my put-down, but since you've brought it up, Jim, just why is the lawn a mirror--except that the poet wants to say it is. --Bob From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 18 06:32:37 2009 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue Aug 18 04:43:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) References: <4b65c2d70908170320j5fe8444ax1b13d28033c67ed7@mail.gmail.com><4C4433538D8B431980F1654A71FC4CA5@SN037832120162> <4b65c2d70908180257v2b57ee84qa5a6782b4786abcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31552093BCAB40D4A1356BA77160EAA9@SN037832120162> Very true, Anny David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) Yes, a good reading, David. But as you know, poetry has embedded something of the Minnesanger, never the King but the singing servant! On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:55 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote: I like her 'only "25 million Americans' read poetry each year. The 'only' itself speaks volumes, let alone the question of what such statistics mean. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is dead (or is it?) Poetry is dead. Poetry is elitist. Poetry is inaccessible, difficult, born out of sadness. by Rosemarie Domrowski http://www.inklessmagazine.com/Inkless/Poetry_Forums/Entries/2009/8/4_Poetry_is_dead.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/e727fbe7/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 07:46:47 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 04:53:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89C3E8.9090302@nut- n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A8A94A7.4030006@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side > of poetry > being before and apart from literature. I can't see it being before story-telling, but maybe originating at the same time. Calling poetry apart from literature, though, makes little taxonomical sense. In my taxonomy (and most people's, I'm sure) literature is a form of verbal expression. It branches into prose and poetry. > It may sound strange, but I think literature is only a > by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is > inherent to langauge > but before and apart from it, and before and apart from > literature. All languages > have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not > an end. Literature > is a superstructure created after the act. You have to define poetry before what you're saying can be intelligently discussed. But if I'm following, I think you're ignoring several things, the need to communicate being the primary one. Stories seem to me to have come out of simple information--possibly going from actual event, to imagined actual event to imagined not-actual event, or story: for instance, "I caught a fish" to "If we go to the river, we can catch fish" to "The god, Igmo, caught 9,000 fish on one hook made of diamonds." Poetry, or words that sound nice, would co-exist, and merge with story-telling. > > If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical > judgment, taxonomy, > schools and fashion, etc.) Not close to my definition. You seem to mean what I would call "the literary business." > be what poetry is about, we've lost something. Who does that? Poetry is one thing, criticism of poetry another, poetics another, and so on. > Dana Gioia > can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of > that act is > whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The most important thing for Gioia only. If we take poetry to ALSO be a communicative act that involves people other than the poet, then--socially--the most important part of the act is how others take the poem. > The poetry resides de facto > in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, > once heard/published/read, is literature > is secondary and of less concern. If I'm following you, Jim, you're simply stating a preference for the poet's enjoyment of making a poem over a reader's. I'm not sure where I stand on this. I guess I would say that if I don't enjoy making and having made a particular poem, the poem is a failure, however others take it. But I'd much much rather enjoy making and having made the poem AND having it reveived well by others. I would add that part of my enjoyment in making a poem is my feeling that others will like it. > > Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important > in its own way. > Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it > is literature > of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal, that is > not as important. > That is literature and not poetry. How is such a poem more important than, say, a healthy bowel movement? Aside from that, we're back to important for the poet versus important for the world. --Bob From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 10:48:52 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Aug 18 09:00:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <731bb17a0908171306r4f5a7c9ax6c5ba614a9da5682@mail.gmail.com> <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other poems makes > it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in competition with Poem > B in some way. Do you want others to read your poems? If so, you HAVE to > want them to read your poems instead of some others' poems, because they > can't read all the poems that exist. > No, I don't *have *to. You think that *saying* poems are in competition with each other makes it so. I disagree because I don't see the writing of poetry as competitive. What does it matter if I choose to read Pound over Auden? Who says that I can't read them both? And for the record, I don't * HAVE* to want anything. Your definition of poetry and poetics is external--you seem to think that the measure of poetry is whether or not someone reads it. So, again, our disagreement lies in philosophy. > As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to as a > poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures like prize-winners > get, payments for publication (however small), are things I therefore need, > and must therefore compete for. So of course these things are meaningful to > me. > Then get out there and beat the bushes. That's how lectureships happen; that's how one is invited to offer a reading. If "your kind" of poetry lacks an audience, as you so often insist, then you need to become an advocate and write lots of journal articles and write lots and lots of reviews. But, I hold that these things are different from the actual writing of poetry. > Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and discussion > of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me but reasons to want > what I produce given a little attention. > Again, that's up to you. You can blame the "man" or blame the "establishment" all that you want. Beside that fact, very few poets that I know actually LIVE off of their art. Many (but not all) are teachers who have academic specialties outside of poetry: one of close friends in African American scholar; another studies the intersection of literature and religion; yet another is a Southern studies scholar. Again--these things AREN'T about the writing of poetry. > Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first priority is > making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into competition with others' > poems. And there are many races going on, the one for money, the one for > careers in universities, the one for quick popularity, the one for > posterity's approval, etc. > Talk about straw men, indeed. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't write the best that poems that you can. But, Bob, if it's all a race (as you assume), don't races have winners and losers? You also seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens at a university, but that's probably a different subject all together. > We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to *objectively*different brains, but I won't get into that. > And you end with an insult. Fitting. > Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except to keep > my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the races they're in. > > Keep running the nonexistent race. See how far it gets you. Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/450201d7/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 13:39:34 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 11:10:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><731bb17a0908171306r4f 5a7c9ax6c5ba614a9da5682@mail.gmail.com><4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other > poems makes it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in > competition with Poem B in some way. Do you want others to read > your poems? If so, you HAVE to want them to read your poems > instead of some others' poems, because they can't read all the > poems that exist. > > > No, I don't /have /to. You think that /saying/ poems are in > competition with each other makes it so. I disagree because I don't > see the writing of poetry as competitive. You probably don't think of yourself as competing with other life forms, either, but you are. You take up room, breathe air, consume food, etc., that deprives other life-forms of air, food, space, etc. You can't avoid doing this. Now, if writing poems is all you are doing, you are not competing. > What does it matter if I choose to read Pound over Auden? Who says > that I can't read them both? Not I. What I say is that you can't read all the poems in the world that are available for reading. Hence, you must (ah woe) REJECT some of them. The ones that lost out in the competition for your attention. (And for exposure to students in your classes.) > And for the record, I don't /HAVE/ to want anything. I never said you did. I said that if you want people to read your poems, you /do HAVE/ to want your poems to beat others in the competition for their attention. Don't you see that you can't want them to read your poems but not care if they read other poems instead. If they read other poems instead, they won't read your poems. > Your definition of poetry and poetics is external--you seem to think > that the measure of poetry is whether or not someone reads it. You constantly get me wrong, Jeff. /One/ measure of a poem's value is of course whether it is read. That's its social value. If you don't care whether anyone reads your poetry or not, you don't care about its social value. Fine. Most of us want our poetry to have a social value, though. But there are other values. The personal value of a poem to its author. Maybe being a poet will be of value even if no one reads your poetry if it impresses certain people that you're cultured, or something.. > So, again, our disagreement lies in philosophy. > > > As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to > as a poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures > like prize-winners get, payments for publication (however small), > are things I therefore need, and must therefore compete for. So > of course these things are meaningful to me. > > > Then get out there and beat the bushes. That's how lectureships > happen; that's how one is invited to offer a reading. If "your kind" > of poetry lacks an audience, as you so often insist, then you need to > become an advocate and write lots of journal articles and write lots > and lots of reviews. Sure, very easy. All kinds of publications clamoring for my reviews of visual poetry. And I have a hundred hours a day to go beat the bushes, and compose poems, and make a living somehow, etc. I don't see that it would work, anyway. One way that seems to work (for a very few) is conformity--going to the right schools, latching on to the right influential older poets, somehow getting a mainstream critic's notice. But some poets can't conform. Another way is to have the luck to fall into something suddenly fashionable like the beat poets. > > But, I hold that these things are different from the actual writing of > poetry. It can be, and is for me, too. > > > Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and > discussion of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me > but reasons to want what I produce given a little attention. > > > Again, that's up to you. You can blame the "man" or blame the > "establishment" all that you want. Beside that fact, very few poets > that I know actually LIVE off of their art. Yes, but some do get big grants--in my view, mostly the wrong ones. > Many (but not all) are teachers who have academic specialties outside > of poetry: one of close friends in African American scholar; another > studies the intersection of literature and religion; yet another is a > Southern studies scholar. > > Again--these things AREN'T about the writing of poetry. > > > Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first > priority is making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into > competition with others' poems. And there are many races going > on, the one for money, the one for careers in universities, the > one for quick popularity, the one for posterity's approval, etc. > > > Talk about straw men, indeed. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't > write the best that poems that you can. But, Bob, if it's all a race > (as you assume), As I know--once poems are submitted for publication. Did you ever notice that the New Yorker, for instance, does not publish sixteen million poems in each issue? > don't races have winners and losers? You don't think there aren't winners and losers among poets? > > You also seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens at > a university, but that's probably a different subject all together. > > > > We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to > /objectively/ different brains, but I won't get into that. > > > And you end with an insult. Fitting. How is my saying your brain is objectively different from mine an insult? > > > > Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except > to keep my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the > races they're in. > > > Keep running the nonexistent race. See how far it gets you. > > Jeff Newberry I just can't see how you can say that. Vendler writes a mediocre book on Shakespeare's sonnets that gets on the NY Times best-seller list; I write the first and still only book on the full range of contemporary haiku and sell ten copies (and get Chris to say he'll buy it). But no race is going on. Because if there was, that would mean competition was going on, and competition isn't nice. It means losers, so we must magic it away: then there will be nothing but winners in the world. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/6a7adc8e/attachment-0001.html From halvard at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 13:27:53 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Aug 18 11:41:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Vendler wins because Shakespeare's better branded. Grumman's a good brand name too, but mostly in aeronautics. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Jeff Newberry wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other poems makes >> it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in competition with Poem >> B in some way. Do you want others to read your poems? If so, you HAVE to >> want them to read your poems instead of some others' poems, because they >> can't read all the poems that exist. >> > > No, I don't *have *to. You think that *saying* poems are in competition > with each other makes it so. I disagree because I don't see the writing of > poetry as competitive. > > You probably don't think of yourself as competing with other life forms, > either, but you are. You take up room, breathe air, consume food, etc., > that deprives other life-forms of air, food, space, etc. You can't avoid > doing this. > > Now, if writing poems is all you are doing, you are not competing. > > What does it matter if I choose to read Pound over Auden? Who says that I > can't read them both? > > Not I. What I say is that you can't read all the poems in the world that > are available for reading. Hence, you must (ah woe) REJECT some of them. > The ones that lost out in the competition for your attention. (And for > exposure to students in your classes.) > > > And for the record, I don't *HAVE* to want anything. > > I never said you did. I said that if you want people to read your poems, > you *do HAVE* to want your poems to beat others in the competition for > their attention. Don't you see that you can't want them to read your poems > but not care if they read other poems instead. If they read other poems > instead, they won't read your poems. > > > Your definition of poetry and poetics is external--you seem to think > that the measure of poetry is whether or not someone reads it. > > You constantly get me wrong, Jeff. *One* measure of a poem's value is of > course whether it is read. That's its social value. If you don't care > whether anyone reads your poetry or not, you don't care about its social > value. Fine. Most of us want our poetry to have a social value, though. > But there are other values. The personal value of a poem to its author. > Maybe being a poet will be of value even if no one reads your poetry if it > impresses certain people that you're cultured, or something.. > > So, again, our disagreement lies in philosophy. > > >> As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to as a >> poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures like prize-winners >> get, payments for publication (however small), are things I therefore need, >> and must therefore compete for. So of course these things are meaningful to >> me. >> > > Then get out there and beat the bushes. That's how lectureships happen; > that's how one is invited to offer a reading. If "your kind" of poetry > lacks an audience, as you so often insist, then you need to become an > advocate and write lots of journal articles and write lots and lots of > reviews. > > Sure, very easy. All kinds of publications clamoring for my reviews of > visual poetry. And I have a hundred hours a day to go beat the bushes, and > compose poems, and make a living somehow, etc. I don't see that it would > work, anyway. One way that seems to work (for a very few) is > conformity--going to the right schools, latching on to the right influential > older poets, somehow getting a mainstream critic's notice. But some poets > can't conform. Another way is to have the luck to fall into something > suddenly fashionable like the beat poets. > > > But, I hold that these things are different from the actual writing of > poetry. > > It can be, and is for me, too. > > > >> Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and discussion >> of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me but reasons to want >> what I produce given a little attention. >> > > Again, that's up to you. You can blame the "man" or blame the > "establishment" all that you want. Beside that fact, very few poets that I > know actually LIVE off of their art. > > Yes, but some do get big grants--in my view, mostly the wrong ones. > > Many (but not all) are teachers who have academic specialties outside of > poetry: one of close friends in African American scholar; another studies > the intersection of literature and religion; yet another is a Southern > studies scholar. > > Again--these things AREN'T about the writing of poetry. > > >> Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first priority is >> making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into competition with others' >> poems. And there are many races going on, the one for money, the one for >> careers in universities, the one for quick popularity, the one for >> posterity's approval, etc. >> > > Talk about straw men, indeed. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't > write the best that poems that you can. But, Bob, if it's all a race (as > you assume), > > As I know--once poems are submitted for publication. Did you ever notice > that the New Yorker, for instance, does not publish sixteen million poems in > each issue? > > > don't races have winners and losers? > > You don't think there aren't winners and losers among poets? > > > You also seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens at a > university, but that's probably a different subject all together. > > > >> We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to *objectively*different brains, but I won't get into that. >> > > And you end with an insult. Fitting. > > How is my saying your brain is objectively different from mine an insult? > > > > >> Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except to keep >> my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the races they're in. >> >> > > Keep running the nonexistent race. See how far it gets you. > > Jeff Newberry > > I just can't see how you can say that. Vendler writes a mediocre book on > Shakespeare's sonnets that gets on the NY Times best-seller list; I write > the first and still only book on the full range of contemporary haiku and > sell ten copies (and get Chris to say he'll buy it). But no race is going > on. Because if there was, that would mean competition was going on, and > competition isn't nice. It means losers, so we must magic it away: then > there will be nothing but winners in the world. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/a4f92674/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Aug 18 13:47:12 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Aug 18 12:00:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908181047r64171005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> Bob, you seem unwilling to understand Jeff's views, whereas he seems willing to understand yours. Further, I find no difference in your poetry's inability to become "successful" and the inability of 99% of other poets' works to become successful. My poetry's not successful, but I'm not constantly complaining about it, as you are. Just because your poetry's DIFFERENT from most other unsuccessful poetry [mine included] doesn't mean we aren't in the same boat. We both are unsuccessful with our poetry; you complain, I don't. I suggest that you bring something new to the New Poetry table. I found your WEPD [What Excellent Poems Do] checklist useful in showing how other NPers [and I] view poems quite differently. It sharpened my eye for poetic techniques, broadened my poetry-reading, and helped me write better poems. I hope you'll jump into a new saddle instead of beating your dead horse. I think it will benefit us all. Best, Judy 2009/8/18 Bob Grumman > Jeff Newberry wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other poems makes >> it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in competition with Poem >> B in some way. Do you want others to read your poems? If so, you HAVE to >> want them to read your poems instead of some others' poems, because they >> can't read all the poems that exist. >> > > No, I don't *have *to. You think that *saying* poems are in competition > with each other makes it so. I disagree because I don't see the writing of > poetry as competitive. > > You probably don't think of yourself as competing with other life forms, > either, but you are. You take up room, breathe air, consume food, etc., > that deprives other life-forms of air, food, space, etc. You can't avoid > doing this. > > Now, if writing poems is all you are doing, you are not competing. > > What does it matter if I choose to read Pound over Auden? Who says that I > can't read them both? > > Not I. What I say is that you can't read all the poems in the world that > are available for reading. Hence, you must (ah woe) REJECT some of them. > The ones that lost out in the competition for your attention. (And for > exposure to students in your classes.) > > > And for the record, I don't *HAVE* to want anything. > > I never said you did. I said that if you want people to read your poems, > you *do HAVE* to want your poems to beat others in the competition for > their attention. Don't you see that you can't want them to read your poems > but not care if they read other poems instead. If they read other poems > instead, they won't read your poems. > > > Your definition of poetry and poetics is external--you seem to think > that the measure of poetry is whether or not someone reads it. > > You constantly get me wrong, Jeff. *One* measure of a poem's value is of > course whether it is read. That's its social value. If you don't care > whether anyone reads your poetry or not, you don't care about its social > value. Fine. Most of us want our poetry to have a social value, though. > But there are other values. The personal value of a poem to its author. > Maybe being a poet will be of value even if no one reads your poetry if it > impresses certain people that you're cultured, or something.. > > So, again, our disagreement lies in philosophy. > > >> As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to as a >> poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures like prize-winners >> get, payments for publication (however small), are things I therefore need, >> and must therefore compete for. So of course these things are meaningful to >> me. >> > > Then get out there and beat the bushes. That's how lectureships happen; > that's how one is invited to offer a reading. If "your kind" of poetry > lacks an audience, as you so often insist, then you need to become an > advocate and write lots of journal articles and write lots and lots of > reviews. > > Sure, very easy. All kinds of publications clamoring for my reviews of > visual poetry. And I have a hundred hours a day to go beat the bushes, and > compose poems, and make a living somehow, etc. I don't see that it would > work, anyway. One way that seems to work (for a very few) is > conformity--going to the right schools, latching on to the right influential > older poets, somehow getting a mainstream critic's notice. But some poets > can't conform. Another way is to have the luck to fall into something > suddenly fashionable like the beat poets. > > > But, I hold that these things are different from the actual writing of > poetry. > > It can be, and is for me, too. > > > >> Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and discussion >> of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me but reasons to want >> what I produce given a little attention. >> > > Again, that's up to you. You can blame the "man" or blame the > "establishment" all that you want. Beside that fact, very few poets that I > know actually LIVE off of their art. > > Yes, but some do get big grants--in my view, mostly the wrong ones. > > Many (but not all) are teachers who have academic specialties outside of > poetry: one of close friends in African American scholar; another studies > the intersection of literature and religion; yet another is a Southern > studies scholar. > > Again--these things AREN'T about the writing of poetry. > > >> Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first priority is >> making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into competition with others' >> poems. And there are many races going on, the one for money, the one for >> careers in universities, the one for quick popularity, the one for >> posterity's approval, etc. >> > > Talk about straw men, indeed. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't > write the best that poems that you can. But, Bob, if it's all a race (as > you assume), > > As I know--once poems are submitted for publication. Did you ever notice > that the New Yorker, for instance, does not publish sixteen million poems in > each issue? > > > don't races have winners and losers? > > You don't think there aren't winners and losers among poets? > > > You also seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens at a > university, but that's probably a different subject all together. > > > >> We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to *objectively*different brains, but I won't get into that. >> > > And you end with an insult. Fitting. > > How is my saying your brain is objectively different from mine an insult? > > > > >> Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except to keep >> my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the races they're in. >> >> > > Keep running the nonexistent race. See how far it gets you. > > Jeff Newberry > > I just can't see how you can say that. Vendler writes a mediocre book on > Shakespeare's sonnets that gets on the NY Times best-seller list; I write > the first and still only book on the full range of contemporary haiku and > sell ten copies (and get Chris to say he'll buy it). But no race is going > on. Because if there was, that would mean competition was going on, and > competition isn't nice. It means losers, so we must magic it away: then > there will be nothing but winners in the world. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/ea833896/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 14:15:27 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Aug 18 12:29:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908181047r64171005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89E71A.1040909@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com> <4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908181047r64171005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have no idea what "successful" and "unsuccessful" mean in this context. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Bob, you seem unwilling to understand Jeff's views, whereas he seems > willing to understand yours. > Further, I find no difference in your poetry's inability to become > "successful" and the inability of 99% of other poets' works to become > successful. My poetry's not successful, but I'm not constantly complaining > about it, as you are. Just because your poetry's DIFFERENT from most other > unsuccessful poetry [mine included] doesn't mean we aren't in the same boat. > We both are unsuccessful with our poetry; you complain, I don't. > > I suggest that you bring something new to the New Poetry table. > > I found your WEPD [What Excellent Poems Do] checklist useful in showing how > other NPers [and I] view poems quite differently. It sharpened my eye for > poetic techniques, broadened my poetry-reading, and helped me write better > poems. > > I hope you'll jump into a new saddle instead of beating your dead horse. I > think it will benefit us all. > > Best, > > Judy > > > > 2009/8/18 Bob Grumman > >> Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> Jeff, you think saying poems aren't in competition with other poems makes >>> it so. But I just can't see how Poem A can't be in competition with Poem >>> B in some way. Do you want others to read your poems? If so, you HAVE to >>> want them to read your poems instead of some others' poems, because they >>> can't read all the poems that exist. >>> >> >> No, I don't *have *to. You think that *saying* poems are in competition >> with each other makes it so. I disagree because I don't see the writing of >> poetry as competitive. >> >> You probably don't think of yourself as competing with other life forms, >> either, but you are. You take up room, breathe air, consume food, etc., >> that deprives other life-forms of air, food, space, etc. You can't avoid >> doing this. >> >> Now, if writing poems is all you are doing, you are not competing. >> >> What does it matter if I choose to read Pound over Auden? Who says that >> I can't read them both? >> >> Not I. What I say is that you can't read all the poems in the world that >> are available for reading. Hence, you must (ah woe) REJECT some of them. >> The ones that lost out in the competition for your attention. (And for >> exposure to students in your classes.) >> >> >> And for the record, I don't *HAVE* to want anything. >> >> I never said you did. I said that if you want people to read your poems, >> you *do HAVE* to want your poems to beat others in the competition for >> their attention. Don't you see that you can't want them to read your poems >> but not care if they read other poems instead. If they read other poems >> instead, they won't read your poems. >> >> >> Your definition of poetry and poetics is external--you seem to think >> that the measure of poetry is whether or not someone reads it. >> >> You constantly get me wrong, Jeff. *One* measure of a poem's value is of >> course whether it is read. That's its social value. If you don't care >> whether anyone reads your poetry or not, you don't care about its social >> value. Fine. Most of us want our poetry to have a social value, though. >> But there are other values. The personal value of a poem to its author. >> Maybe being a poet will be of value even if no one reads your poetry if it >> impresses certain people that you're cultured, or something.. >> >> So, again, our disagreement lies in philosophy. >> >> >>> As I've explained before, I don't have time to do what I'd like to as a >>> poet and critic. Grants, invitations to do paid lectures like prize-winners >>> get, payments for publication (however small), are things I therefore need, >>> and must therefore compete for. So of course these things are meaningful to >>> me. >>> >> >> Then get out there and beat the bushes. That's how lectureships happen; >> that's how one is invited to offer a reading. If "your kind" of poetry >> lacks an audience, as you so often insist, then you need to become an >> advocate and write lots of journal articles and write lots and lots of >> reviews. >> >> Sure, very easy. All kinds of publications clamoring for my reviews of >> visual poetry. And I have a hundred hours a day to go beat the bushes, and >> compose poems, and make a living somehow, etc. I don't see that it would >> work, anyway. One way that seems to work (for a very few) is >> conformity--going to the right schools, latching on to the right influential >> older poets, somehow getting a mainstream critic's notice. But some poets >> can't conform. Another way is to have the luck to fall into something >> suddenly fashionable like the beat poets. >> >> >> But, I hold that these things are different from the actual writing of >> poetry. >> >> It can be, and is for me, too. >> >> >> >>> Money to live and create on, and prestige to attract money (and >>> discussion of one's work) are not reasons to write poetry for me but reasons >>> to want what I produce given a little attention. >>> >> >> Again, that's up to you. You can blame the "man" or blame the >> "establishment" all that you want. Beside that fact, very few poets that I >> know actually LIVE off of their art. >> >> Yes, but some do get big grants--in my view, mostly the wrong ones. >> >> Many (but not all) are teachers who have academic specialties outside of >> poetry: one of close friends in African American scholar; another studies >> the intersection of literature and religion; yet another is a Southern >> studies scholar. >> >> Again--these things AREN'T about the writing of poetry. >> >> >>> Talk about straw men. Consider the possibility that my first priority is >>> making the best poems I can. THEN I put them into competition with others' >>> poems. And there are many races going on, the one for money, the one for >>> careers in universities, the one for quick popularity, the one for >>> posterity's approval, etc. >>> >> >> Talk about straw men, indeed. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't >> write the best that poems that you can. But, Bob, if it's all a race (as >> you assume), >> >> As I know--once poems are submitted for publication. Did you ever notice >> that the New Yorker, for instance, does not publish sixteen million poems in >> each issue? >> >> >> don't races have winners and losers? >> >> You don't think there aren't winners and losers among poets? >> >> >> You also seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens at a >> university, but that's probably a different subject all together. >> >> >> >>> We have different views, yes. I think it comes down to *objectively*different brains, but I won't get into that. >>> >> >> And you end with an insult. Fitting. >> >> How is my saying your brain is objectively different from mine an insult? >> >> >> >> >>> Well, thanks, Jeff--but I doubt that luck will help me now, except to >>> keep my poems and critical works from finishing last in all the races >>> they're in. >>> >> >> Keep running the nonexistent race. See how far it gets you. >> >> Jeff Newberry >> >> I just can't see how you can say that. Vendler writes a mediocre book on >> Shakespeare's sonnets that gets on the NY Times best-seller list; I write >> the first and still only book on the full range of contemporary haiku and >> sell ten copies (and get Chris to say he'll buy it). But no race is going >> on. Because if there was, that would mean competition was going on, and >> competition isn't nice. It means losers, so we must magic it away: then >> there will be nothing but winners in the world. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/965ba303/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 15:52:41 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 14:03:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sticky Caterpillar Still Warm in its Bed In-Reply-To: <8CBEDBF3301992E-C98-A0C@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBEDBF3301992E-C98-A0C@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908181252w3233b2dbod7ba0048ee3f6ffc@mail.gmail.com> "There are only twenty copies, and the world is poorer for the smallness of that number." this is our Geof! A true Gentleman. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 AM, wrote: > Geof Huth likes Lynn Behrendt's 'Luminous Flux'... > http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2009/08/sticky-caterpillar-still-warm-in-its.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/5bee3015/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 17:44:58 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 14:52:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908181047r64171005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89E71A.1040909@nut- n-but.net><731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com><4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908181047r64171005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8B20DA.5030706@nut-n-but.net> I doubt that anything I do or say will be of much benefit to the gushosophers at New-Poetry, Judy. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 17:46:55 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 14:53:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu><33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net><4A89E71A.1040909@nut- n-but.net><731bb17a0908180748o436c6dcao3b556c9d375b1d22@mail.gmail.com><4A8AE756.5040100@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0908181047r6417 1005h39e4678c3b65034b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8B214F.60208@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > I have no idea what "successful" and "unsuccessful" mean in this > context. > > Hal How about "'successful'"? From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Aug 18 17:03:35 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Aug 18 15:14:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908171424l179c137t8e7bee7e85e9c025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Anny, I've never sent there because in my lifetime they've been largely stogy, crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) I.e., nothing to feel bad about. (Not to offend anyone here who has published in Poetry.) skip -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: [New-Poetry] people who love my poetry: Dear Anny Ballardini: We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your work. Sincerely, The Editors POETRY 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 Chicago, IL 60611 312-787-7070 312-787-6650 (fax) Subscribe to POETRY today! http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They had the chance with my work, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I don't know if I have to party now. Cheers, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/447b4120/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Aug 18 17:05:58 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Aug 18 15:17:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> Bob, "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave to dialectical thinking. Skip -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 5:59 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn Chris Lott wrote: > Bad Bob, you've done lost yer mind. Items not being in competition > does NOT mean they must be equal. If one poem is not equal to a second poem, it MUST be either better or worse than it, and a winner or loser in the race the too can't help but compete in. > Except maybe in some circumscribed, > zero-sum frame of your personal aesthetics. Oh wait, we had this > argument before. > Right, and you will never understand why you're wrong. Maybe a study of the laws of conservation would help, or of natural selection, or of economics, but I suspect not. > I think Hal "His Pithiness" Johnson got this one right. > > c (enjoying this cup of coffee just as I enjoyed one yesterday and, > hopefully, will enjoy one tomorrow. And not a single one of them in > competition with, or detracting, from the other. I live in a rare > state of grace, I guess) No, you live in a very common state of benightedness, I'm afraid. Do you not prefer one brand of coffee over others? If so, your consumption of that brand helps it in its competition with other brands. If not, you're still helping it in competition with tea or root beer, which you might have drunk instead. You're granting your cup of coffee a first-place medal for the time you spend drinking it over all other things you might have been occupied by. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 17:07:26 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Aug 18 15:18:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70908171424l179c137t8e7bee7e85e9c025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The print edition was/is a nice size and shape to use in fanning oneself during stuffy poetry readings or lectures or concerts--not as flimsy as program note booklets or wads of poems one is waiting to read. The contents you can read (for free) online now. Value galore there. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Anny, > > > > I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, > crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see > what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when > I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography > on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of > its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) > > > > I.e., nothing to feel bad about. > > > > (Not to offend anyone here who has published in *Poetry*.) > > > > skip > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] people > > > > who love my poetry: > > Dear Anny Ballardini: > > We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're > sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your > work. > Sincerely, > > The Editors > POETRY > 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 > Chicago, IL 60611 > 312-787-7070 > 312-787-6650 (fax) > > Subscribe to POETRY today! > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html > > 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) > > > You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They *had > the chance with my work*, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same > answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I > don't know if I have to party now. > > Cheers, Anny > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/09cbc209/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Aug 18 17:35:56 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue Aug 18 15:47:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Does Music, et al Message-ID: <748529.46868.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Friend and poet, Brian Howe, gets airplay on ABC News - he reviews bands for Pitchfork and has become Charles Gibson's darling to be featured! You go, Brian! http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8348160 -- Stain of Poetry -- This Saturday @ 7 p.m.! Pour some poems on your steamy late August with Emily Kendal Frey, Phil Memmer, Jeni ?truck darling? Olin, Zachary Schomburg, JodiAnn Stevenson & Janaka Stucky! Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St http://stainofpoetry.com ~~~~~ Sun, Sept. 13th @ 9p.m. Samantha Farrell Strand of Oaks Karisa Wilson Amir Darzi Michael Tyrell Amy King Judson Claiborne Three months ago, in an effort to make a large, impersonal stage smaller and more intimate, Fogged Clarity began putting together salon-style events. These events (essentially concerts with poetry readings between sets) feature deeply resonant performers from across the continent, cutting themselves open on stage. INFO -?http://www.livingroomny.com/artist/fogged-clarity TICKETS -?http://foggedclarity.com/ _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/b4221e83/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 17:50:18 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:01:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70908171424l179c137t8e7bee7e85e9c025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908181450p2eb3f34bka4433155200a2cc@mail.gmail.com> Thank you very much, Skip. That "stogy" gives the idea. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Anny, > > > > I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, > crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see > what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when > I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography > on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of > its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) > > > > I.e., nothing to feel bad about. > > > > (Not to offend anyone here who has published in *Poetry*.) > > > > skip > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] people > > > > who love my poetry: > > Dear Anny Ballardini: > > We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're > sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your > work. > Sincerely, > > The Editors > POETRY > 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 > Chicago, IL 60611 > 312-787-7070 > 312-787-6650 (fax) > > Subscribe to POETRY today! > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html > > 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) > > > You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They *had > the chance with my work*, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same > answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I > don't know if I have to party now. > > Cheers, Anny > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/a7e44376/attachment-0001.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 17:59:49 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:10:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d70908171424l179c137t8e7bee7e85e9c025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908181459o478071cdrefa523a3d21c913d@mail.gmail.com> This is so papal-ly funny! A true papalina (not a zucchetto! but a biretta) with strawberries on top, :-) and to continue, birretta (notice the double "r" though) is a small beer in Italian, it fits quite well with the milieu, :-) On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > The print edition was/is a nice size and shape to use in fanning oneself > during stuffy poetry readings or lectures or concerts--not as flimsy > as program note booklets or wads of poems one is waiting to read. > > The contents you can read (for free) online now. Value galore there. > > Hal > > "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? > In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." > > --Woody Allen > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> Anny, >> >> >> >> I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, >> crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see >> what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when >> I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography >> on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of >> its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) >> >> >> >> I.e., nothing to feel bad about. >> >> >> >> (Not to offend anyone here who has published in *Poetry*.) >> >> >> >> skip >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: >> new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Anny Ballardini >> *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views >> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] people >> >> >> >> who love my poetry: >> >> Dear Anny Ballardini: >> >> We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're >> sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your >> work. >> Sincerely, >> >> The Editors >> POETRY >> 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 >> Chicago, IL 60611 >> 312-787-7070 >> 312-787-6650 (fax) >> >> Subscribe to POETRY today! >> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html >> >> 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) >> >> >> You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They >> *had the chance with my work*, I let them for the fourth time. Always the >> same answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my >> submission. I don't know if I have to party now. >> >> Cheers, Anny >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/a3c4d361/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 18:02:03 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:13:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> Ah, this is a good one. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Bob, > > "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave to > dialectical thinking. > > Skip > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 5:59 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn > > Chris Lott wrote: > > Bad Bob, you've done lost yer mind. Items not being in competition > > does NOT mean they must be equal. > If one poem is not equal to a second poem, it MUST be either better or > worse than it, and a winner or loser in the race the too can't help but > compete in. > > > > Except maybe in some circumscribed, > > zero-sum frame of your personal aesthetics. Oh wait, we had this > > argument before. > > > Right, and you will never understand why you're wrong. Maybe a study of > the laws of conservation would help, or of natural selection, or of > economics, but I suspect not. > > > I think Hal "His Pithiness" Johnson got this one right. > > > > c (enjoying this cup of coffee just as I enjoyed one yesterday and, > > hopefully, will enjoy one tomorrow. And not a single one of them in > > competition with, or detracting, from the other. I live in a rare > > state of grace, I guess) > No, you live in a very common state of benightedness, I'm afraid. Do > you not prefer one brand of coffee over others? If so, your consumption > of that brand helps it in its competition with other brands. If not, > you're still helping it in competition with tea or root beer, which you > might have drunk instead. You're granting your cup of coffee a > first-place medal for the time you spend drinking it over all other > things you might have been occupied by. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/f5cd25d9/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 19:18:56 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:25:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> References: <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4A8B36E0.9020705@nut-n-but.net> Skip Fox wrote: > Bob, > > "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave to > dialectical thinking. > > Skip Gushosophers seem to use this term, "dialectical thinking," often of late, Skip, but it seems to have a lot of different meanings. Would you care to define it? Would you care to tell me how poems submitted to publications are not in competition with each other using any kind of thinking you want to? (I should point out that they are doing other things besides competing with each other, such as sharing participation in Poetry, but they are not not competing.) --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 19:30:23 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:37:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Ah, this is a good one. > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Skip Fox > wrote: > > Bob, > > "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a > slave to > dialectical thinking. > One can only be a slave to anything in the mind of a dialectical thinker (if the latter term is taken to mean one who believes in dichotomies--i.e., is sane). So one who agrees with Skip necessarily believes "they can't help to be in competition." --Bob G., befuddling gushosophers again, no doubt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/0921dc19/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 18:29:53 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:40:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: "Dialectical Thinker"--now that has a ring. I think I'll give that name to a dog so's I can use it several times a day. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Ah, this is a good one. > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave >> to >> dialectical thinking. > > One can only be a slave to anything in the mind of a dialectical thinker > (if the latter term is taken to mean one who believes in dichotomies--i.e., > is sane). So one who agrees with Skip necessarily believes "they can't help > to be in competition." > > --Bob G., befuddling gushosophers again, no doubt > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/dfc4701a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 18:31:45 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 18 16:42:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908181531x105ab0f1u7d4856750386f349@mail.gmail.com> bob, I misread I saw a bunch of grasshoppers and then Hal arrives with dogs, we started out with horses, don't tell me that my idea of a farm is finally taking shape. Good blest night from here, Anny On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > "Dialectical Thinker"--now that has a ring. I think I'll give that name > to a dog so's I can use it several times a day. > > Hal > > "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? > In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." > > --Woody Allen > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> Ah, this is a good one. >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Skip Fox wrote: >> >>> Bob, >>> >>> "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave >>> to >>> dialectical thinking. >> >> One can only be a slave to anything in the mind of a dialectical thinker >> (if the latter term is taken to mean one who believes in dichotomies--i.e., >> is sane). So one who agrees with Skip necessarily believes "they can't help >> to be in competition." >> >> --Bob G., befuddling gushosophers again, no doubt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/b4425397/attachment.html From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Aug 18 19:31:42 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue Aug 18 17:42:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Three Lines for Judicious Judy In-Reply-To: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> "Wrestle with soap-bubbles -- quick, who wins?" Thus Roshi the Wisdom-Master teases. His answer: "Who loses?" "Who judges?" "When?" SPX From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 21:50:30 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 18:59:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Three Lines for Judicious Judy In-Reply-To: <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> References: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A8B5A66.7010009@nut-n-but.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > "Wrestle with soap-bubbles -- quick, who wins?" > Thus Roshi the Wisdom-Master teases. > His answer: "Who loses?" "Who judges?" "When?" > > SPX Shoot a man between the eyes--quick, who wins? bXb From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Aug 18 21:53:10 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 19:00:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Three Lines for Judicious Judy In-Reply-To: <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> References: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A8B5B06.5060102@nut-n-but.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > "Wrestle with soap-bubbles -- quick, who wins?" > Thus Roshi the Wisdom-Master teases. > His answer: "Who loses?" "Who judges?" "When?" > Did his answer win? From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Aug 18 21:28:29 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue Aug 18 19:39:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Requesting Magazine recos Message-ID: Hi all... I'm asking for help in placing some translations I've written. I've translated 3 of the elegies from the Exeter Book, including "The Seafarer", "The Wanderer", and "The Ruin". Can you recommend online or print journals that might be interested? Do you know the editor? Thank you so much for any help you can offer. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/90d610a4/attachment.html From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Aug 18 21:30:13 2009 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue Aug 18 19:41:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: people Message-ID: Perhaps you mean "stodgy", i.e., "dull, heavy, wanting in gaiety or brightness", not "stogy", i.e., a Conestoga cigar? Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:50:18 +0200 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people Thank you very much, Skip. That "stogy" gives the idea. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Anny, > > > > I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, > crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see > what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when > I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography > on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of > its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) > > > > I.e., nothing to feel bad about. > > > > (Not to offend anyone here who has published in *Poetry*.) > > > > skip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/b6aaf336/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Tue Aug 18 22:22:36 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 18 20:34:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] first recorded sounds Message-ID: <8CBEE8B0D67A08F-FAC-41A8@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> First sound recordings... http://www.firstsounds.org/sounds/scott.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/8f5ac624/attachment.html From utopia_beach at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Aug 18 22:40:54 2009 From: utopia_beach at blueyonder.co.uk (janet blankfield) Date: Tue Aug 18 20:51:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20090819034054.504c40ea@relay02> delurking in order to say yes, yes, yes. [don't anyone mention wordlessness] poetry is a natural consequence of language use. literature is something else. hunger, crime and punishment, the third policeman: literature. my mother's rythmic tongue. my dad's On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:12:39 -0400 jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >>I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of >>poetry >> >>being before and apart from?literature. It may sound strange, but I think >>literature is only a >> >>by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is >>inherent to langauge >> >>but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature.?All >>languages >> >>have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not >>an?end.?Literature >> >>is a superstructure created after the act. >> >> >> >>If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical >>judgment, taxonomy, >> >>schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. >>Dana Gioia >> >>can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of >>that act is >> >>whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides >>de facto >> >>in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, >>once?heard/published/read,?is literature >> >>is secondary and of less concern. >> >> >> >>Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in >>its own way. >> >>Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is >>literature >> >>of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal,?that is >>not as?important. >> >>That is literature and not poetry. >> >> >> >>Finnegan >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Bob Grumman >>Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn >> >> >> >>Barry Spacks wrote:? >>>? >>> On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:? >>>? >>>> all poems apparently being winners.? >>>? >>> doesn't follow (strawman argument).? >>? >>Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they >>are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong >>implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like >>poetry--all losers if not.? >>>? >>> I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does,? >>> our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?)? >>> future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common? >>> (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > >>> declared? the WINNAH?)? >>>>? >>> I quote him for reference:? >>>? >>> Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this? >>> very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of >>> them? did a better job.? >>>? >>> Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes!? >>How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the >>subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. >>I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once >>again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, >>doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the others writing >>about photographs of their mothers have done.? ? I don't see that I >>suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of Mother poem, >>either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall have admired >>at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be a lot of >>such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to me.? ? >>I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may >>have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against >>standard themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a >>poem, the poet needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh >>metaphor, or fresh diction.? ? --Bob? ? >>_______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? >> -- life's a beach From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Aug 18 22:55:01 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue Aug 18 21:06:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Here I come back from vacation to find a back&forth about whether poetry is a horse, whether there're winners, and even whether I'm in competition with the moth bouncing against the window--the little fuzzy bastard that's using up all my air and space. But I'm late to the party... Sigh. A loser, I guess. I'm a fan of Gioia, though not particularly of that poem. Is he a winner? Because of what? Awards? Grants? The NEA nod? (Which, I believe, precluded him from publishing--a peculiar "win" for a poet it seems to me, though I'm not sure if that was a self-emposed preclusion.) Whatever, I don't care. I just don't care about that crap. In fact, when I'm writing up the CT Poet newsletter and some poet sends me their bio full of "wins" (published here and here (be impressed!); won the whatthefrick chapbook award; is the poet laureate of TinyTown, USA), it bores me to anger. Then again, not being in the poetry business (whatever that is), nor working for a university, nor even following (or caring) which poet wins what stupid award or grant, all I know is: I like many of Gioia's poems. But I do read other poets, as well. But if they read like brussell sprouts taste, they don't get read again, the losers. And I wonder, is Emily Dickinson a winner? Or was she a loser who was given a trophy post-morten? Can you be a winner if you don't win until you're dust? Does that count? Then there's the Fireside Poets. Winners? Then dusty losers? (Being that they're mostly dismissed today as second tier. Is second tier a loser?) And what about some poor poet who committed suicide--and yet was famous too? Winner? Loser? Draw? I figure in my simple way that horses in a race ARE in a race--and poems up for some dumb-ass award are in a race: accepted. They win some money based on some criteria, and can later say, "I won the blahblahblah race." But what if I don't care about the race? What about the horse grazing on the hill just north of the racetrack? It's not even a racehorse. It's only gorgeous and strong and everyone loves it, but if it's not in the race, how can it lose? Then there's the horse pulling the carriage. How do we rate the non-racers. Losers all! Then again, if the race fans are right, then it appears that Norton-type, words-only poetry (with no pictures or math or crayons or glue or vegetables) is the winner. Break out the wreaths of roses! It's over folks. All other types of poetry, please stop now; you're embarrassing yourselves. JohnJ, Loser. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/3377e04a/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 00:29:10 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Aug 18 21:36:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> So, poetry races are only those whose prize is something stupid like best of some issue of The Tiny Town Flash, John? And those poems published in your CT Newsletter aren't winners over those you rejected for it? Or do you accept any poem? I think I've caused a spotlight to be shone on the neurotic refusal of the Emotionally Correct to recognize the existence of competition. My definition of a winner is someone who competes for something he wants and gets it. I'm competing for enough money to be able to compose all the poems I want to without having to work at some job that prevents me from doing that. I'm also competing for a certain kind of recognition that will make me feel that maybe I've contributed something to the world that people like, and may continue to like after I'm dead. Most publication credits, almost all awards and grants, mean nothing to me--except that winning them helps put one's work where the people whose respect I do value will see it, so I have to hope somehow I'll get those credits, awards and grants. I never have, which leads me to suspect I never will. That makes me complain--but not all the time; mostly only when taunted into it, as here, because I believe in expressing views on poems, even ones I don't like. --Bob G. From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 02:15:38 2009 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Wed Aug 19 00:26:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] hullo again In-Reply-To: <200908182001.n7IK1WnB026349@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908182001.n7IK1WnB026349@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <191293.83748.qm@web35506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Folks, Everyone sounds more upset than usual (or else that's because I watched a terrifyingly depressing movie yesterday). I don't like to see my NewPo in such a state. Everyone needs to go drink a beer/chamomile and relax for a while. Amicalement, Dr. A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090818/c65edc80/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 19 02:40:05 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Aug 19 00:51:26 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> Are there two metaphors at work here? Poetry as a horse race, and poetry as participating in a scarcity economy? If we're talking about poetry competitions, or the Oxford Chair of Poetry, then yes, Bob's right, it *is a race -- one winner and more than several losers. But mostly we're in the area of a scarcity economy -- some poems but not all will be published in magazine X, etc. (And some poems will get attention, ours or theirs, but not others; some books will get shelf space in a library or a shop but not others. Etc.) While the horse race aspect of the business is relatively trivial, I think it's difficult to deny that poetry exists within the bounds of scarcity. But then, when I breathe air, does this deny any other creature breath? Maybe the Web is air and the realm of print is a bookstore. Robin extending the metaphor. From chris at chrislott.org Wed Aug 19 02:50:36 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Aug 19 01:01:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: There are two metaphors in play here, though in the case of the poem posted here that started it all they both apply. When it comes to reading and appreciating a poem, the rules of scarcity only apply if one is reaching the limits of their capacity. In most cases I am nowhere close to doing so. Anny posted a poem by Gioia. I read that poem. It didn't subtract from my ability to read more poems by others. It didn't subtract from my capacity to take in poems of other kinds posted by others. It wasn't in opposition with anything to me. Its quality as a poem-- and my enjoyment of it (or not) in all its traditional, mainstreamedness-- has nothing to do with my capacity to enjoy (or not) the next poem to come along. Bob seems perturbed and upset anytime a traditional or mainstream poem gets posted here. In his mind it is always a race (or so I take it), always a competition, always a zero-sum game in some grand picture of attention and aesthetics. And in any case, the poem in question was a poem shared by Anny to the list. I hardly see that as entering a competition or race of ANY sort, though Bob seems to feel differently. c On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Are there two metaphors at work here? ?Poetry as a horse race, and poetry as > participating in a scarcity economy? > > If we're talking about poetry competitions, or the Oxford Chair of Poetry, > then yes, Bob's right, it *is a race -- one winner and more than several > losers. > > But mostly we're in the area of a scarcity economy -- some poems but not all > will be published in magazine X, etc. ?(And some poems will get attention, > ours or theirs, but not others; some books will get shelf space in a library > or a shop but not others. ?Etc.) > > While the horse race aspect of the business is relatively trivial, I think > it's difficult to deny that poetry exists within the bounds of scarcity. > > But then, when I breathe air, does this deny any other creature breath? > > Maybe the Web is air and the realm of print is a bookstore. > > Robin extending the metaphor. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Wed Aug 19 03:08:34 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Aug 19 01:19:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > ?Since I have the strange view that if favorable opinions are allowed, > unfavorable opinions should be, too, I then opined that I did not like the > poem. Poor Bob! Is anyone here asking you to refrain? You expect your freedom of opinion to be respected (as it should be) but you seem upset that we exercise our freedom to respond. In fact, isn't it this very cycle-- someone posts a poem they enjoy, you dismiss it as something that's already been done, someone in turn responds that they enjoyed it anyway, you question how that's reasonable or possible, someone tries to explain, etc etc etc-- that you seek? At the very least you must expect it by now! At any rate, the productive path seems straightforward to me: post poetry you think we should be reading. By all means continue to tell people that the poems they post here are no good, as is your right, but it seems easier to give people a new poem to enjoy than to argue them away from one that came before. c From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 19 03:37:34 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Aug 19 01:48:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net><49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <136163CC024741109D57BB75CB2985B5@RobinLaptopPC> > There are two metaphors in play here, though in the case of the poem > posted here that started it all they both apply. > > When it comes to reading and appreciating a poem, the rules of > scarcity only apply if one is reaching the limits of their capacity. > In most cases I am nowhere close to doing so. Anny posted a poem by > Gioia. I read that poem. It didn't subtract from my ability to read > more poems by others. It didn't subtract from my capacity to take in > poems of other kinds posted by others. Unless you read and follow up every poem mentioned by everyone, Chris, you *did, for whatever reasons, chose to read that particular poem by Gioia rather than any of the others you would or might have encountered at the same time. Unless we have infinite time (and energy), the scarcity economy applies. As it also applies as a context to writing poems for the individual -- writing a poem takes time that could have been spent otherwise ... (How much of the argument is local to that specific Gioia poem? I didn't pay much attention to it when Anny first posted it, other than giving it a cursory glance. Since then, I've come back to it once or twice (at the expense of time I could have spent attending to other poems, or reading Bob's book on Haiku ), and all this did was to confirm my original impression, that it was a rather derivative text, possibly even taking off from a Philip Larkin photograph poem in _The Less Deceived_. Which, alas, went to confirm my already low opinion of Gioia. For what that's worth.) Robin From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 04:19:54 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 02:31:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <20090819034054.504c40ea@relay02> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> <20090819034054.504c40ea@relay02> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908190119u362e44a0i95ad692f5a4af449@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Janet. Can you delurk a couple more moments, as we have few female delurks and it grows lonely for company. utopia beach seems an awesome grounding for one's email address. You must be a USAmerican, but a very unusual one, I think. Best, Judy 2009/8/18 janet blankfield > > delurking in order to say yes, yes, yes. [don't anyone mention > wordlessness] > poetry is a natural consequence of language use. literature is something > else. > > hunger, crime and punishment, the third policeman: literature. > > my mother's rythmic tongue. my dad's > > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:12:39 -0400 > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > >> > >>I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side of > >>poetry > >> > >>being before and apart from?literature. It may sound strange, but I think > >>literature is only a > >> > >>by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is > >>inherent to langauge > >> > >>but before and apart from it, and before and apart from literature.?All > >>languages > >> > >>have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not > >>an?end.?Literature > >> > >>is a superstructure created after the act. > >> > >> > >> > >>If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical > >>judgment, taxonomy, > >> > >>schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost something. > >>Dana Gioia > >> > >>can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of > >>that act is > >> > >>whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry resides > >>de facto > >> > >>in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, > >>once?heard/published/read,?is literature > >> > >>is secondary and of less concern. > >> > >> > >> > >>Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is important in > >>its own way. > >> > >>Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it is > >>literature > >> > >>of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal,?that is > >>not as?important. > >> > >>That is literature and not poetry. > >> > >> > >> > >>Finnegan > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Bob Grumman > >>Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm > >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn > >> > >> > >> > >>Barry Spacks wrote:? > >>>? > >>> On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:? > >>>? > >>>> all poems apparently being winners.? > >>>? > >>> doesn't follow (strawman argument).? > >>? > >>Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that they > >>are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the strong > >>implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if you like > >>poetry--all losers if not.? > >>>? > >>> I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does,? > >>> our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?)? > >>> future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common? > >>> (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to be > > >>> declared? the WINNAH?)? > >>>>? > >>> I quote him for reference:? > >>>? > >>> Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on this? > >>> very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least fifty of > >>> them? did a better job.? > >>>? > >>> Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes!? > >>How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't the > >>subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of Mother. > >>I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using it once > >>again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better job--yes, > >>doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the others writing > >>about photographs of their mothers have done.? ? I don't see that I > >>suggested there could only be one winning Photograph of Mother poem, > >>either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely recall have admired > >>at least one poem about a family photograph. There ought to be a lot of > >>such poems, family photographs being a potent subject, it seems to me.? ? > >>I have only done one poem about my mother, that I can think of. But I may > >>have done thirty or more poems about spring. I have nothing against > >>standard themes, or even standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a > >>poem, the poet needs to do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh > >>metaphor, or fresh diction.? ? --Bob? ? > >>_______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? > >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? > >> > > > > -- > > life's a beach > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/7908c015/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 04:50:13 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 03:01:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Three Lines for Judicious Judy In-Reply-To: <4A8B5B06.5060102@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net> <4A8B5B06.5060102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908190150j7cec25ka7ec709973282765@mail.gmail.com> Barry n Bob: who's 'he' [as in 'his answer....']? from she, Judy Wisdommest 2009/8/18 Bob Grumman > Barry Spacks wrote: > >> >> "Wrestle with soap-bubbles -- quick, who wins?" >> Thus Roshi the Wisdom-Master teases. >> His answer: "Who loses?" "Who judges?" "When?" >> >> Did his answer win? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/5a1fd0a3/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 04:51:41 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 03:02:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Requesting Magazine recos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908190151v13495536mdab4e3d688b1a100@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Crisman, Any clues as to how exceptionally awesome your translations are? Links to previous translations? Previous poems? Where've you tried to shop them so far? Best, Judy 2009/8/18 Crisman Cooley > Hi all... I'm asking for help in placing some translations I've written. > I've translated 3 of the elegies from the Exeter Book, including "The > Seafarer", "The Wanderer", and "The Ruin". > > Can you recommend online or print journals that might be interested? Do > you know the editor? > > Thank you so much for any help you can offer. > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/dea672d5/attachment.html From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 05:13:57 2009 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Wed Aug 19 03:25:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] brussels sprouts In-Reply-To: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John wrote: "But if they read like brussell sprouts taste, they don't get read again, the losers." Dear John, I resent that. Brussels sprouts are one of my all-time favorite vegetables, and I defend all brussels-sprout-tasting poets. So there. As a matter of fact, I believe that eating brussels sprouts guarantees success in this cosmic horse race. I just noticed something. Anny or someone else sometimes posts a poem or two to the list, and Bob sometimes responds to that, but how on earth can one post a printed visual poem to the list? Seems to me that the jeu is truque d'avance (dunno how to translate that one)... Amicalement, Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/8a1a223b/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 06:57:49 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 19 05:08:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908190357x53a207e6j43952cefd6313cb2@mail.gmail.com> You are right Crisman, Charles Dickens favorite adjective. On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 3:30 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Perhaps you mean "stodgy", i.e., "dull, heavy, wanting in gaiety or > brightness", not "stogy", i.e., a Conestoga cigar? > > > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:50:18 +0200 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people > > Thank you very much, Skip. That "stogy" gives the idea. > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > > > Anny, > > > > > > > > I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, > > crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to > see > > what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was > when > > I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary > bibliography > > on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because > of > > its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) > > > > > > > > I.e., nothing to feel bad about. > > > > > > > > (Not to offend anyone here who has published in *Poetry*.) > > > > > > > > skip > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/6ba3d035/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 08:04:02 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 05:11:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n- but.net> <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A8BEA32.8010608@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > Are there two metaphors at work here? Poetry as a horse race, and > poetry as participating in a scarcity economy? > > If we're talking about poetry competitions, or the Oxford Chair of > Poetry, then yes, Bob's right, it *is a race -- one winner and more > than several losers. > > But mostly we're in the area of a scarcity economy -- some poems but > not all will be published in magazine X, etc. (And some poems will > get attention, ours or theirs, but not others; some books will get > shelf space in a library or a shop but not others. Etc.) > > While the horse race aspect of the business is relatively trivial, I > think it's difficult to deny that poetry exists within the bounds of > scarcity. > > But then, when I breathe air, does this deny any other creature breath? Ultimately, yes. Indeed, humankind's destruction of forests, etc., is slowly denying or on the way to denying, life for a lot of non-humans. I think both analogies are valid, Robin, but don't see how poetry's being in a scarcity economy does not make it also in a horse race. One additional comment, because I think unrecognized by those whom the idea of competition upsets: I play tennis with a bunch of friends. We all want to win, but we all remain friends nomatter who wins. In other words, competition is not necessary war. > > Maybe the Web is air and the realm of print is a bookstore. > > Robin extending the metaphor. Good extension. But even if we agree that the Web allows all poems to be printed, there will still be the scarcity economy caused by the finite ability of the poetry audience to read or otherwise experience poems. In other words, some poems will have an audience and be discussed, but most will not. --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 07:15:34 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 19 05:26:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] brussels sprouts In-Reply-To: <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908190415k6ed10ff2q2ba216d0cfbad467@mail.gmail.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NewPoetry.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 139333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/1db08792/NewPoetry-0001.jpg From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 09:16:43 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:25:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] brussels sprouts In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908190415k6ed10ff2q2ba216d0cfbad467@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu><196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b65c2d70908190415k6ed10ff2q2ba216d0cfbad467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8BFB3B.8050203@nut-n-but.net> > > And here is my Mountain Fountain, hopefully: Your "picture" is unquestionably the most godawful thing I ever saw, Anny. If there was a horse race for LOSERS, it still wouldn't be allowed to enter it!!! --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 09:19:20 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:28:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net><4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A8BFBD8.1020500@nut-n-but.net> > give people a new poem to enjoy Also, what's the point when hardly anyone says anything about it, and almost none of the few who do offer any real feedback positive or negative? I hope we're here to discuss poetry, not just read it, which we don't need a group to do. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 09:21:38 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:28:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net><4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A8BFC62.2020403@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Since I have the strange view that if favorable opinions are allowed, >> unfavorable opinions should be, too, I then opined that I did not like the >> poem. >> > > Poor Bob! Is anyone here asking you to refrain? > > No, Chris. At least ten people thanked me graciously for my view. By the way, I'm saying what happened, not reporting a aperceived injustice. > You expect your freedom of opinion to be respected (as it should be) > but you seem upset that we exercise our freedom to respond. In fact, > isn't it this very cycle-- someone posts a poem they enjoy, you > dismiss it as something that's already been done, Wrong again. As something that's already been done and done better by fifty others. > someone in turn > responds that they enjoyed it anyway, you question how that's > reasonable or possible, someone tries to explain, etc etc etc-- that > you seek? At the very least you must expect it by now! > > At any rate, the productive path seems straightforward to me: post > poetry you think we should be reading. By all means continue to tell > people that the poems they post here are no good, as is your right, > but it seems easier to give people a new poem to enjoy than to argue > them away from one that came before. > > c I will continue to speak my mind about the poems posted here when I'm in the mood. Why don't you tell all the people who say they like some poem that has been posted but give no reasons why to post poems? I post few poems (I do post some occasionally or give links to some), but don't have time to post more. (The kinds of poems I would post aren't as easy to post as the ones most others post, since they're graphics often.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/c15c1667/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 09:25:21 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:31:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Three Lines for Judicious Judy In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908190150j7cec25ka7ec709973282765@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908181510.n7IFAMnA021703@wiz.cath.vt.edu><3DFF059D-B32A-49D0-9C0E-51688787A67D@verizon.net><4A8B5B06.5060102@nut- n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908190150j7cec25ka7ec709973282765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8BFD41.9060300@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Barry n Bob: who's 'he' [as in 'his answer....']? > > from she, > > Judy Wisdommest Roshi. > > 2009/8/18 Bob Grumman > > > Barry Spacks wrote: > > > "Wrestle with soap-bubbles -- quick, who wins?" > Thus Roshi the Wisdom-Master teases. > His answer: "Who loses?" "Who judges?" "When?" > > Did his answer win? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/9275fab9/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 09:27:07 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:33:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <136163CC024741109D57BB75CB2985B5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n- but.net><49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> <136163CC024741109D57BB75CB2985B5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4A8BFDAB.9040700@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> There are two metaphors in play here, though in the case of the poem >> posted here that started it all they both apply. >> >> When it comes to reading and appreciating a poem, the rules of >> scarcity only apply if one is reaching the limits of their capacity. >> In most cases I am nowhere close to doing so. Anny posted a poem by >> Gioia. I read that poem. It didn't subtract from my ability to read >> more poems by others. It didn't subtract from my capacity to take in >> poems of other kinds posted by others. > > Unless you read and follow up every poem mentioned by everyone, Chris, > you *did, for whatever reasons, chose to read that particular poem by > Gioia rather than any of the others you would or might have > encountered at the same time. Unless we have infinite time (and > energy), the scarcity economy applies. > > As it also applies as a context to writing poems for the individual > -- writing a poem takes time that could have been spent otherwise ... > > (How much of the argument is local to that specific Gioia poem? I > didn't pay much attention to it when Anny first posted it, other than > giving it a cursory glance. Since then, I've come back to it once or > twice (at the expense of time I could have spent attending to other > poems, or reading Bob's book on Haiku ), and all this did was to > confirm my original impression, that it was a rather derivative text, > possibly even taking off from a Philip Larkin photograph poem in _The > Less Deceived_. Which, alas, went to confirm my already low opinion > of Gioia. For what that's worth.) > > Robin At last, someone at New-Poetry who understands what I've been saying and saying and saying and isn't afraid to demonstrate it! Thanks, Robin. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 08:22:29 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:33:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] brussels sprouts In-Reply-To: <4A8BFB3B.8050203@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b65c2d70908190415k6ed10ff2q2ba216d0cfbad467@mail.gmail.com> <4A8BFB3B.8050203@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908190522h5256bd99h17e4b1b972b96e8@mail.gmail.com> that easy, it went through! Thank you Bob, your help is invaluable. The issue that Alex raised is serious and our Bob might be right. How many visual poems have we seen on Poetry lists? Bob, do you get up before cockcrow? On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> And here is my Mountain Fountain, hopefully: >> > > Your "picture" is unquestionably the most godawful thing I ever saw, Anny. > If there was a horse race for LOSERS, it still wouldn't be allowed to enter > it!!! > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/59bed0e3/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Aug 19 08:23:50 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:34:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] brussels sprouts In-Reply-To: <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200908190549.n7J5n1nB004174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <196297.59631.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > I just noticed something. Anny or someone else sometimes posts a poem or > two to the list, and Bob sometimes responds to that, but how on earth can > one post a printed visual poem to the list? Seems to me that the jeu is > truque d'avance (dunno how to translate that one)... > "the game is gaffed" Back to lurking, for now... -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/e81aa018/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 08:24:50 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 19 06:35:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A8BFC62.2020403@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net> <4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> <4A8BFC62.2020403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908190524i75902a1au729de57379d88898@mail.gmail.com> Well, then, start posting those. Thanks, On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I post few poems (I do post some occasionally or give links to some), but > don't have time to post more. (The kinds of poems I would post aren't as > easy to post as the ones most others post, since they're graphics often.) > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/b9dba042/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 09:09:43 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:20:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <99794.82130.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Bob, I'm ever amazed at your ability to respond to nearly every post. I don't know where you find the time and the energy. I just can't buy the scarcity economy theory. (In fact, I rarely buy into it in any setting.) I understand it, and I understand that technically it's true, that as something you can chalk up on a blackboard, it's provable, but in most cases it's meaningless because the numbers are too huge and the blackboard too big. There are just too many damn poems to read. Always has been. Hundreds of millions of people write poems. Most don't get published. Most poets don't even try to publish. So to me, the scarcity theory doesn't apply because we can't possibly read them all anyway, couldn't even if we wanted to since most go unpublished. To say that reading the Gioia poem takes away from reading something else is true, but meaningless. Typing this post takes away. Reading this does. Talking. Eating. Sleeping. Dying. They all take away time. But it's what we live with; it's life; it's not an actual choice. It's not like if I didn't eat breakfast or take a shower or go to Mystic with the kids, then I could finally get to that book of visual poetry (which of course then cuts into my time for reading Gioia or Dickens, or listening to Richard Thompson or Steve Earle, or watching Monk, or looking at Rembrandts, or staring at my wife). It's an academic argument meant for arguing only, not resolving. And if the definition of winner is "someone who competes for something he wants and gets it." Then you win, Bob, reading and writing visual poetry as you do. And I win, too, reading and writing poetry with plain old words. Since we're in different races, we're all winners! As for the recognition, that's for others to grant, perhaps now, perhaps after we're dead, perhaps never. There's no winners there. Especially since the finish line is defined by the fickle opinions of the day. Ballads were once all the rage. But you just can't win with that horse anymore. Maybe visual poetry will make a big splash next year, or around 2150. Don't know. JohnJ ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:29:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn So, poetry races are only those whose prize is something stupid like best of some issue of The Tiny Town Flash, John? And those poems published in your CT Newsletter aren't winners over those you rejected for it? Or do you accept any poem? I think I've caused a spotlight to be shone on the neurotic refusal of the Emotionally Correct to recognize the existence of competition. My definition of a winner is someone who competes for something he wants and gets it. I'm competing for enough money to be able to compose all the poems I want to without having to work at some job that prevents me from doing that. I'm also competing for a certain kind of recognition that will make me feel that maybe I've contributed something to the world that people like, and may continue to like after I'm dead. Most publication credits, almost all awards and grants, mean nothing to me--except that winning them helps put one's work where the people whose respect I do value will see it, so I have to hope somehow I'll get those credits, awards and grants. I never have, which leads me to suspect I never will. That makes me complain--but not all the time; mostly only when taunted into it, as here, because I believe in expressing views on poems, even ones I don't like. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/0b5bd898/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 09:13:23 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:24:27 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And of this line, "That makes me complain--but not all the time; mostly only when taunted into it, as here," look back at the post sequence. Anny posted the poem--but before any of us had time to simply read it, yawn, and NOT comment on it, you went after not just that poem, but by using your catch phrases ("dead techniques," "Iowa Plaintext"), you (again) went after all textual poetry. That's what taunted the rest of the us into it. Not the other way around. Had you not said anything, then most of us wouldn't have commented on that poem, since there wasn't much to comment on. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:29:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn So, poetry races are only those whose prize is something stupid like best of some issue of The Tiny Town Flash, John? And those poems published in your CT Newsletter aren't winners over those you rejected for it? Or do you accept any poem? I think I've caused a spotlight to be shone on the neurotic refusal of the Emotionally Correct to recognize the existence of competition. My definition of a winner is someone who competes for something he wants and gets it. I'm competing for enough money to be able to compose all the poems I want to without having to work at some job that prevents me from doing that. I'm also competing for a certain kind of recognition that will make me feel that maybe I've contributed something to the world that people like, and may continue to like after I'm dead. Most publication credits, almost all awards and grants, mean nothing to me--except that winning them helps put one's work where the people whose respect I do value will see it, so I have to hope somehow I'll get those credits, awards and grants. I never have, which leads me to suspect I never will. That makes me complain--but not all the time; mostly only when taunted into it, as here, because I believe in expressing views on poems, even ones I don't like. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/2dd8ccc3/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 09:19:59 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:31:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <4A8BFBD8.1020500@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net><4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net> <4A8BFBD8.1020500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <699601.31692.qm@web54108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On this I agree, though would you really want to near negative remarks? To be honest, I don't like visual poetry--most of it I don't consider poetry at all--which is why I don't comment on the visual poetry that's been posted here; I have nothing informative to say. Maybe most fall into that category and that's why all goes silent. Then again, I've noticed that most poems are posted without real discussion. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:19:20 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob > give people a new poem to enjoy Also, what's the point when hardly anyone says anything about it, and almost none of the few who do offer any real feedback positive or negative? I hope we're here to discuss poetry, not just read it, which we don't need a group to do. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/42c88dac/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 09:25:39 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:36:27 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost on the nature of listserv debate Message-ID: "He thought that I was after him for a feather? The white one in his tail; like one who takes Everything said as personal to himself. " David Graham Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/e4ccbcb0/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Aug 19 09:27:05 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:38:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost on the nature of listserv debate Message-ID: Wow. Frost speaking about computer battles. Which proves my theory that he was prescient. After all he wrote "Fire and Ice" about the breakup of The Beatles 40 years before The Beatles came to the states. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/55ce916b/attachment.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 09:46:30 2009 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed Aug 19 07:57:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarthia Message-ID: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> Interview with Albert Goldbarth & a selection of poems on the PBS site: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/entertainment/poetry/profiles/poet_goldbarth.html I will no doubt regret noting that--love him or hate him--Goldbarth is utterly distinctive. I think he may have influenced some younger poets, but it's hard to see his particular note being struck by earlier poets. I also think he's as good as Ashbery, but that's another discussion.... Grahamd@Ripon.edu ------------------------ Home page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Aug 19 09:49:54 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:01:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarthia Message-ID: I find him a lot more readable than Ashbery. and completely unique. I know there are poets who have tried to emulate him, but it seems impossible to me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/ff03dbf4/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 10:03:59 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:14:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, John, for saying what I feel, and in a memorable visual way. I love and identify with both kinds of non-racing horses, the one grazing on the hill and the one pulling the carriage. I also feel like a racing horse because of my own reasonable desire to have others read, enjoy and benefit from my writings [poetry, fiction, prose]. On the issue Bob raises about one person's poetry necessarily being consigned loser status if another is pronounced winner, I disagree in major part and in a significant way. I agree with Bob's reasoning initially, until taking into account other dimensions which must be factored in. I'll use an example, and explain further. Example: I have entered the poetry horse race. Those who help my horse win will have chosen my poetry over others'---but to an extent and in ways which none of us can measure, because it depends upon such things as time taken for reading, quality or manner of reading, knowledge of poetry techniques, and breadth of past and present readings. Since we know that a reader cannot at the same time read one poem and another poem, we know that choice determines whose poem will be read. Those who have [along with other factors] more time, more efficient quality of reading, better knowledge of poetry techniques, and more breadth of past and present readings, may choose to read Bob's poems as well as mine. The reader may then decide that both of our poems are her winners. Hence, both Bob and I will have "won". Or she may decide that Bob's poem is the winner, not mine; or that neither of our poems may please her horsey palate. We must add the [unmeasurable] number of readers, as well. At this point, Bob's one-dimensional [either/or] logic must give way to something akin to chaos theory [e.g., a butterfly on a tree in Japan that causes a hurricane off the coast of North Carolina]. A temporary negative irony, ultimately, then, is that Bob's one-dimension logic---which wins him the argument for a poetic horse race in which he always loses---necessarily also holds Bob as a poetry "loser"---ie, one who can never fairly win the race. Hence, Bob's logic wins him the argument, and perpetually places him at the losing end of the horse race. Fortunately, with the necessary expanded logic I've given, he has lost the argument---and he has as much hope as I or any other poet for winning the horse race. Best, Judy 2009/8/18 John Jeffrey "What about the horse grazing on the hill just north of the racetrack? It's not even a racehorse. It's only gorgeous and strong and everyone loves it, but if it's not in the race, how can it lose? Then there's the horse pulling the carriage. How do we rate the non-racers." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/a669a519/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Wed Aug 19 10:15:17 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:26:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarthia In-Reply-To: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> References: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I agree: earlier poets seem immune to his influence. Helpfully, Mark At 09:46 AM 8/19/2009, you wrote: >Interview with Albert Goldbarth & a selection of poems on the PBS site: > >http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/entertainment/poetry/profiles/poet_goldbarth.html > >I will no doubt regret noting that--love him or hate him--Goldbarth is >utterly distinctive. I think he may have influenced some younger >poets, but it's hard to see his particular note being struck by >earlier poets. > >I also think he's as good as Ashbery, but that's another discussion.... > >Grahamd@Ripon.edu >------------------------ >Home page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 10:41:35 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:52:36 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarthia In-Reply-To: References: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <593572D9-74AA-4D95-9DEB-072538CC5ABD@ripon.edu> Whereas, for example, Whitman was highly influenced by Allen Ginsberg and Gerald Stern. (And Sandburg was, unfortunately, someone that Whitman should have read less avidly.) One of the few items of literary theory on which I agree with Harold Bloom, this notion of later poets influencing earlier. You can take that as a joke, or a cute way of pointing out the same point Eliot made in "Tradition and the Individual Talent," but in any case it seems clear that some poets manage to be influential on the way we read earlier poets, and some don't. Just as some arrive wearing their influences proudly or at least obviously, and some don't. One point about Goldbarth--neither criticism nor praise, as I intend-- is that he's sui generis. I don't see many earlier poets in his work at all. Whether he'll turn out to be truly influential in the way Ashbery, Stevens, and Pound have been, I dunno. He may be *too* odd for that, akin more to Hopkins or Moore, maybe, than Eliot or Williams. Just ruminating, not argufying. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Aug 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I agree: earlier poets seem immune to his influence. > > Helpfully, > > Mark > > At 09:46 AM 8/19/2009, you wrote: > >> Interview with Albert Goldbarth & a selection of poems on the PBS >> site: >> >> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/entertainment/poetry/ >> profiles/poet_goldbarth.html >> >> I will no doubt regret noting that--love him or hate him-- >> Goldbarth is >> utterly distinctive. I think he may have influenced some younger >> poets, but it's hard to see his particular note being struck by >> earlier poets. >> >> I also think he's as good as Ashbery, but that's another >> discussion.... >> >> Grahamd@Ripon.edu >> ------------------------ >> Home page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/639338b5/attachment.html From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 10:42:01 2009 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:53:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost on the nature of listserv debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60908190742u5d91f5a9oa9746f39a9ba2ae2@mail.gmail.com> I probably shouldn't ask, but how did you know about Bob's tail feather? - Jim On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Graham, David wrote: > > "He thought that I was after him for a feather? > The white one in his tail; like one who takes > Everything said as personal to himself.?" > > David Graham > Grahamd@Ripon.edu > ------------------------ > Home page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ From junction at earthlink.net Wed Aug 19 10:44:42 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Aug 19 08:55:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarthia In-Reply-To: <593572D9-74AA-4D95-9DEB-072538CC5ABD@ripon.edu> References: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> <593572D9-74AA-4D95-9DEB-072538CC5ABD@ripon.edu> Message-ID: And maybe a bit less to say? At 10:41 AM 8/19/2009, you wrote: >Whereas, for example, Whitman was highly influenced by Allen >Ginsberg and Gerald Stern. (And Sandburg was, unfortunately, >someone that Whitman should have read less avidly.) > >One of the few items of literary theory on which I agree with Harold >Bloom, this notion of later poets influencing earlier. You can take >that as a joke, or a cute way of pointing out the same point Eliot >made in "Tradition and the Individual Talent," but in any case it >seems clear that some poets manage to be influential on the way we >read earlier poets, and some don't. Just as some arrive wearing >their influences proudly or at least obviously, and some don't. > >One point about Goldbarth--neither criticism nor praise, as I >intend--is that he's sui generis. I don't see many earlier poets in >his work at all. Whether he'll turn out to be truly influential in >the way Ashbery, Stevens, and Pound have been, I dunno. He may be >*too* odd for that, akin more to Hopkins or Moore, maybe, than Eliot >or Williams. > >Just ruminating, not argufying. . . . > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd@ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Aug 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>I agree: earlier poets seem immune to his influence. >> >>Helpfully, >> >>Mark >> >>At 09:46 AM 8/19/2009, you wrote: >> >>>Interview with Albert Goldbarth & a selection of poems on the PBS site: >>> >>>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/entertainment/poetry/profiles/poet_goldbarth.html >>> >>>I will no doubt regret noting that--love him or hate him--Goldbarth is >>>utterly distinctive. I think he may have influenced some younger >>>poets, but it's hard to see his particular note being struck by >>>earlier poets. >>> >>>I also think he's as good as Ashbery, but that's another discussion.... >>> >>>Grahamd@Ripon.edu >>>------------------------ >>>Home page: >>>http://web.mac.com/drjazz > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Aug 19 10:51:30 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Wed Aug 19 09:02:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarthia Message-ID: Good point, David. Although I think Whitman should have skipped Sandburg altogether. What you said reminds me of a conversation about jazz I had with a friend who's in his 80's and has seen and heard just about every great player. He was talking about Charlie Parker and how revolutionary he was, and I said that I had never heard Parker as being all that revolutionary because by the time I got to Parker I had been listening to a lot of people who were influenced by Parker, who had taken what he had done and moved further with it. So while I like Parker and get a lot of pleasure out of listening to him, he's not one of my seminal jazz figures. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/88e7ba79/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 12:25:26 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 09:34:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n- but.net> <835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net> John Jeffrey wrote: > And of this line, "That makes me complain--but not all the time; > mostly only when taunted into it, as here," look back at the post > sequence. Anny posted the poem--but before any of us had time to > simply read it, yawn, and NOT comment on it, you went after not just > that poem, but by using your catch phrases ("dead techniques," "Iowa > Plaintext"), you (again) went after all textual poetry. That's what > taunted the rest of the us into it. Not the other way around. Had > you not said anything, then most of us wouldn't have commented on that > poem, since there wasn't much to comment on. Okay, I would say I taunted certain people into taunting me into complaining about lack of recognition, which I didn't do in my initial post. I wasn't initially thinking of taunting as in describing the poem I was responding to using what I thought were appropriate terms. It was an inferior poem, in my view, because a very standard example of a certain kind of poem I've given a name to. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/5897fb7a/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 12:43:45 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 09:56:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <99794.82130.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n- but.net> <99794.82130.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A8C2BC1.5050706@nut-n-but.net> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tyre.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 470508 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/7d2719ff/Tyre-0001.jpg From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 12:56:50 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 10:03:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Death, Taxes & Bad-Bob In-Reply-To: <699601.31692.qm@web54108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200908151600.n7FG04nA032175@wiz.cath.vt.edu><89A5807D-5A1C-4FB9-9CB6-8BD0CBBEA53C@verizon.net><4A89A12E.9080903@nut-n-but.net><4A8BFBD8.1020500@nut-n-but.net> <699601.31692.qm@web54108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A8C2ED2.2090504@nut-n-but.net> John Jeffrey wrote: > On this I agree, though would you really want to hear negative remarks? Definitely, even the stupid ones, the reverse gush ones--e.g., "an ugly bad non-poem that a five-year-old could have made"--because such remarks encourage me, Philistine opposition generally indicating worthwhile art. --Bob > To be honest, I don't like visual poetry--most of it I don't > consider poetry at all Interestingly, I consider very little of what is now called visual poetry to be poetry, and the most visible commentator on it, Geof Huth, agrees that it isn't poetry. He hasn't said why it should be called "visual /poetry/," though. > --which is why I don't comment on the visual poetry that's been posted > here; I have nothing informative to say. Maybe most fall into that > category and that's why all goes silent. Well, you could ask where the poetry in a given piece is. I recently posted the URL to a text of mine in which I tried to show the value in an artwork of asemic text--that is, textual elements without verbal meaning. I didn't consider such an artwork a visual poem, though. Gotta have words to be anything called a poem, as far as I'm concerned. > > Then again, I've noticed that most poems are posted without real > discussion. > Another factor is that many posted poems are by New-Poetry people, and it's tricky discussing a friend's poem you may not entirely like. I truly would like any seeming defects in the attached work blasted, though. I posted a URL to my blog when I posted a version of this work there and one person who saw it said a few nice things about it but said he felt "seaside reveries" too romantic. I decided he was right. --Bob --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/81e08ef8/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 12:58:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 10:04:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost on the nature of listserv debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8C2F51.3050603@nut-n-but.net> Graham, David wrote: > > "He thought that I was after him for a feather? > The white one in his tail; like one who takes > Everything said as personal to himself. " You're talkin' about me, right??! Right, David!?? Cut it out! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/4547e2e0/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 13:05:45 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 10:12:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8C30E9.9070004@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Thanks, John, for saying what I feel, and in a memorable visual way. > I love and identify with both kinds of non-racing horses, the one > grazing on the hill and the one pulling the carriage. I also feel > like a racing horse because of my own reasonable desire to have others > read, enjoy and benefit from my writings [poetry, fiction, prose]. > > On the issue Bob raises about one person's poetry necessarily being > consigned loser status if another is pronounced winner, I disagree in > major part and in a significant way. I agree with Bob's reasoning > initially, until taking into account other dimensions which must be > factored in. I'll use an example, and explain further. > > Example: I have entered the poetry horse race. Those who help my > horse win will have chosen my poetry over others'---but to an extent > and in ways which none of us can measure, because it depends upon such > things as time taken for reading, quality or manner of reading, > knowledge of poetry techniques, and breadth of past and present > readings. > > Since we know that a reader cannot at the same time read one poem and > another poem, we know that choice determines whose poem will be read. > Those who have [along with other factors] more time, more efficient > quality of reading, better knowledge of poetry techniques, and more > breadth of past and present readings, may choose to read Bob's poems > as well as mine. The reader may then decide that both of our poems > are her winners. Hence, both Bob and I will have "won". Or she may > decide that Bob's poem is the winner, not mine; or that neither of our > poems may please her horsey palate. > > We must add the [unmeasurable] number of readers, as well. At this > point, Bob's one-dimensional [either/or] logic must give way to > something akin to chaos theory [e.g., a butterfly on a tree in Japan > that causes a hurricane off the coast of North Carolina]. > > A temporary negative irony, ultimately, then, is that Bob's > one-dimension logic---which wins him the argument for a poetic horse > race in which he always loses---necessarily also holds Bob as a poetry > "loser"---ie, one who can never fairly win the race. Hence, Bob's > logic wins him the argument, and perpetually places him at the losing > end of the horse race. > > Fortunately, with the necessary expanded logic I've given, he has lost > the argument---and he has as much hope as I or any other poet for > winning the horse race. > > Best, > > Judy Sorry, Judy, but your "expanded logic" makes no sense to me. If I send a poem to /Poetry/ hoping it will be accepted for publication and it is rejected, my poem has lost that race, regardless of whether or not the editor who rejected it was drunk or not. And whether I think I have any chance of winning some future race has nothing to do with whether that race exists or not. For the record, I'm still competing--though I almost never bother to submit anywhere, just self-publish, mainly on the Internet--or send stuff to people I know will accept it (like Wonderful Anny even though her taste in poetry is unbeliev-- I'd better not go on). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/1095bded/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 12:27:03 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 10:38:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908190927h120898cbuacada588ca22ae5a@mail.gmail.com> A beautiful art work, Bob. Show more of them. I might want to use one of them for a poetry pamphlet cover, not sure whether, as I'd said before to you, I will be using colour covers or not [can use colour cardstock, tho]. Best, Judy 2009/8/19 Bob Grumman > John Jeffrey wrote: > > And of this line, "That makes me complain--but not all the time; mostly > only when taunted into it, as here," look back at the post sequence. Anny > posted the poem--but before any of us had time to simply read it, yawn, and > NOT comment on it, you went after not just that poem, but by using your > catch phrases ("dead techniques," "Iowa Plaintext"), you (again) went after > all textual poetry. That's what taunted the rest of the us into it. Not > the other way around. Had you not said anything, then most of us wouldn't > have commented on that poem, since there wasn't much to comment on. > > Okay, I would say I taunted certain people into taunting me into > complaining about lack of recognition, which I didn't do in my initial > post. I wasn't initially thinking of taunting as in describing the poem I > was responding to using what I thought were appropriate terms. It was an > inferior poem, in my view, because a very standard example of a certain kind > of poem I've given a name to. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/102cd585/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 12:30:32 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed Aug 19 10:41:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost on the nature of listserv debate In-Reply-To: <4A8C2F51.3050603@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A8C2F51.3050603@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6C6E84AF-FA39-4A7B-9AE2-78B089BFBC1A@ripon.edu> On Aug 19, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Graham, David wrote: >> >> >> "He thought that I was after him for a feather? >> The white one in his tail; like one who takes >> Everything said as personal to himself. " > You're talkin' about me, right??! Right, David!?? Cut it out! > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ Nah. Just a general sort of observation. But if you ever try one of those flights out sideways, let us know if it undeceives you, OK? Me, I'll be down at the wood-pile for a bit if anyone wants me. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/ee46acab/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 13:04:42 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed Aug 19 11:15:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> <49BC894598B441069D838FA15A0B0E8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Love watching those metaphors at play. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > There are two metaphors in play here, though in the case of the poem > posted here that started it all they both apply. > > When it comes to reading and appreciating a poem, the rules of > scarcity only apply if one is reaching the limits of their capacity. > In most cases I am nowhere close to doing so. Anny posted a poem by > Gioia. I read that poem. It didn't subtract from my ability to read > more poems by others. It didn't subtract from my capacity to take in > poems of other kinds posted by others. It wasn't in opposition with > anything to me. Its quality as a poem-- and my enjoyment of it (or > not) in all its traditional, mainstreamedness-- has nothing to do with > my capacity to enjoy (or not) the next poem to come along. > > Bob seems perturbed and upset anytime a traditional or mainstream poem > gets posted here. In his mind it is always a race (or so I take it), > always a competition, always a zero-sum game in some grand picture of > attention and aesthetics. > > And in any case, the poem in question was a poem shared by Anny to the > list. I hardly see that as entering a competition or race of ANY sort, > though Bob seems to feel differently. > > c > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Robin > Hamilton wrote: > > Are there two metaphors at work here? Poetry as a horse race, and poetry > as > > participating in a scarcity economy? > > > > If we're talking about poetry competitions, or the Oxford Chair of > Poetry, > > then yes, Bob's right, it *is a race -- one winner and more than several > > losers. > > > > But mostly we're in the area of a scarcity economy -- some poems but not > all > > will be published in magazine X, etc. (And some poems will get > attention, > > ours or theirs, but not others; some books will get shelf space in a > library > > or a shop but not others. Etc.) > > > > While the horse race aspect of the business is relatively trivial, I > think > > it's difficult to deny that poetry exists within the bounds of scarcity. > > > > But then, when I breathe air, does this deny any other creature breath? > > > > Maybe the Web is air and the realm of print is a bookstore. > > > > Robin extending the metaphor. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/ba6c0dcc/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 13:08:09 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed Aug 19 11:19:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8C30E9.9070004@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com> <4A8C30E9.9070004@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org Bob, if I come upon a poem of yours and enjoy reading it but forget it ten minutes later has it won or lost? Hal On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: Sorry, Judy, but your "expanded logic" makes no sense to me. If I send a > poem to *Poetry* hoping it will be accepted for publication and it is > rejected, my poem has lost that race, regardless of whether or not the > editor who rejected it was drunk or not. And whether I think I have any > chance of winning some future race has nothing to do with whether that race > exists or not. For the record, I'm still competing--though I almost never > bother to submit anywhere, just self-publish, mainly on the Internet--or > send stuff to people I know will accept it (like Wonderful Anny even though > her taste in poetry is unbeliev-- I'd better not go on). > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/ce3f25bb/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 14:54:10 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 12:05:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><83 3549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com><4A8C30E9.9070004@nut-n- but.net> Message-ID: <4A8C4A52.7070004@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? > In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." > > --Woody Allen > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > Bob, if I come upon a poem of yours and enjoy reading it but forget it ten > minutes later has it won or lost? > > Hal All poems are in a great many races at once, Hal. My poem would have won the very short term acceptance race for your favorable attention, but lost the race for you permanent favorable attention--I mean, if it were possible for such a race . . . --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/dc91e51e/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 15:02:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 12:08:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908190927h120898cbuacada588ca22ae5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><83 3549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908190927h120898cbuacada588ca22ae5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8C4C2C.8090706@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > A beautiful art work, Bob. Show more of them. I might want to use > one of them for a poetry pamphlet cover, not sure whether, as I'd said > before to you, I will be using colour covers or not [can use colour > cardstock, tho]. > > Best, > > Judy Feel free to use anything of mine, Judy. It's kind of a hassle finding them and jpging them, etc, and posting them (plus I think we're only supposed to post one or two a month at New-Poetry, a wise rule), but I'll try to remember to post something once in a while. Meanwhile, my blog has two galleries of my work--but you have my book, which has the best of the pieces there. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 15:34:33 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 12:41:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Frost on the nature of listserv debate In-Reply-To: <6C6E84AF-FA39-4A7B-9AE2-78B089BFBC1A@ripon.edu> References: <4A8C2F51.3050603@nut-n-but.net> <6C6E84AF-FA39-4A7B-9AE2-78B089BFBC1A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4A8C53C9.8060803@nut-n-but.net> David Graham wrote: > > > > On Aug 19, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Graham, David wrote: >>> >>> "He thought that I was after him for a feather? >>> The white one in his tail; like one who takes >>> Everything said as personal to himself. " >> You're talkin' about me, right??! Right, David!?? Cut it out! >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > Nah. Just a general sort of observation. But if you ever try one of > those flights out sideways, let us know if it undeceives you, OK? > > Me, I'll be down at the wood-pile for a bit if anyone wants me. All's I can say is you're lucky I realized all my tail feathers is yeller. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/949edead/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 14:33:17 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed Aug 19 12:44:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8C4A52.7070004@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908190703r262197b9hf1ee2327bb56098a@mail.gmail.com> <4A8C4A52.7070004@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Ah, the word "race" attenuates. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? > In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." > > --Woody Allen > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > Bob, if I come upon a poem of yours and enjoy reading it but forget it ten > minutes later has it won or lost? > > Hal > > All poems are in a great many races at once, Hal. My poem would have won > the very short term acceptance race for your favorable attention, but lost > the race for you permanent favorable attention--I mean, if it were possible > for such a race . . . > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/875c92ab/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Wed Aug 19 14:33:56 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Wed Aug 19 12:44:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <4A8C4C2C.8090706@nut-n-but.net> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net> <894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu> <4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <835588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908190927h120898cbuacada588ca22ae5a@mail.gmail.com> <4A8C4C2C.8090706@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908191133o4f27fec3i80ea30e40ba61609@mail.gmail.com> Is the one you posted today in the book, Bob? [prob: I'm in England now; book's in USA] Best, Judy 2009/8/19 Bob Grumman > Judy Prince wrote: > >> A beautiful art work, Bob. Show more of them. I might want to use one of >> them for a poetry pamphlet cover, not sure whether, as I'd said before to >> you, I will be using colour covers or not [can use colour cardstock, tho]. >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> > Feel free to use anything of mine, Judy. It's kind of a hassle finding > them and jpging them, etc, and posting them (plus I think we're only > supposed to post one or two a month at New-Poetry, a wise rule), but I'll > try to remember to post something once in a while. Meanwhile, my blog has > two galleries of my work--but you have my book, which has the best of the > pieces there. > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/67a421f9/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Wed Aug 19 15:53:16 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Wed Aug 19 14:04:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dialectical Thinking, for Bob (maybe based on my creative misreading) In-Reply-To: <4A8B36E0.9020705@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob, (I might be reacting to capitalistic senses of opposition/competition applied to poetry which I've always disliked . . . Old hippie, etc. I even wrote something to the effect that sending your poetry out for prizes is like entering your mother in a wet tee-shirt contest. And, it's true, I've never like actual activity of submitting . . . always seems discomforting, a bit sickening. So maybe I'm just reacting.) The following gives my half-baked thinking on the dialectical, then on opposition/apposition. I've been opposed to the dialectical for decades but don't know how it is used fashionably/theoretically these days. It has always seemed a dangerous narrowing (of thought, of being). It looks at the world through a slot that pushes us into thinking there is either only one of two way of considering an issue, say "All human action is a result of freewill or determinism," and these two are directly opposed(even if it allows a spectrum between the two, the narrowing is considerable). Then, in the hands of Hegel, the dialectical is articulate in a machine-like view of the world in which every thesis (idea) creates an antithesis and the interaction of the two creates a synthesis which in turn acts as thesis to kick off another round of mental begetting. (Sounds masturbatory to me, . . . not that there's anything wrong with it, as they say. :) ) The virtual dog chasing its literally tail for ever. (Aside: then welding the dialectical to the teleological we get jokers in political "thinking" who declare "The End of History" and in religion a cosmic system working its way to Armageddon while the individual is ever trying to recapture the innocence of original conditions. Some counter-point. Result: personal and cultural neurosis.) Of course I teach the difference between freewill and determinism when I am teaching literary Naturalism. But I realize that even though such dialectical thought might have some limited generative potential (it tends to get a discussion rolling, for instance), it really tends to overshadow the human, multivalent way of thinking. I found myself presenting the thoughts of both 'sides' and even playing with Sartre and Skinner and predestination to show students these issues take many forms and have been with Western culture for centuries, but then I tell them how I realize such thinking doesn't account for many things. (Now I teach it the same and then end discussing how such thinking appears significantly limited.) In the same way a number of oppositions try to seduce us into thinking history is generated solely by the conflict of either classes, races, or genders. Actually, Bob, I'd be suspicious of any system that explicitly or implicitly claimed to explain how we find ourselves in the world, historically, individually, etc. They all seem blind when subscribed to at the expense of abdicating one's own (call it 'human,' 'intuitive,' 'erotic,' 'fleshy,' 'multivalent,' 'holistic') method of apprehending and thinking. Maybe it's as simple as ontology trumping epistemology in my world. I could well be misapprehending everything. Yet that's how I see it. The issue of contesting poetry is a bit ancillary to this but seems to me to represent another under-considered narrowing. Two poems can be seen in apposition in the same way that any thing or thought can be seen in apposition (easiest to see with items from different classes: a needle and a camel's eye . . . but the same is true, it seems, with two items from the same class). Maybe it's the difference in the terms "apposition" and "opposition," but I think (and I've not considered this deeply) even in opposition there are possibilities of items not being necessarily in a contest with one another. I may have misread your e-mail (and I had not read the entire thread) because I thought you were writing about any two poems being in contest, not in the context of submitting them to a magazine. (But even then the contest is not just for the best but for the type of issue the editors want to put out . . . with such-and-such a balance, etc.) By the way, Bob, I'm not anti-philosophy (or anti-mathematical or anti-oppositional), but anti-any-philosophy (or math, etc.) which claims supremacy or, even, that all views are philosophical. skip -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:19 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn Skip Fox wrote: > Bob, > > "They can't help to be in competition," in my opinion, if one is a slave to > dialectical thinking. > > Skip Gushosophers seem to use this term, "dialectical thinking," often of late, Skip, but it seems to have a lot of different meanings. Would you care to define it? Would you care to tell me how poems submitted to publications are not in competition with each other using any kind of thinking you want to? (I should point out that they are doing other things besides competing with each other, such as sharing participation in Poetry, but they are not not competing.) --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 16:06:14 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed Aug 19 14:17:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Clark Beyond the Pale Message-ID: <77D29BAF-26C8-4ACD-95AD-E80347B719A7@ripon.edu> I just discovered that Tom Clark, one of my favorite oughta-be-better- known poets, has a blog, and a very attractive one it is, with all sorts of TC poems, nice graphics, & other goodies: http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/ This may be an opportune time also to make my annual plug-and-plea for my own Poetry Library, which is continually being augmented and revised. Recently added Tom Clark's blog, for example! Where it joins previously listed blogs by such folks as Barry Spacks, Jim Finnegan, Hal Johnson, Ed Byrne, Jeff Newberry, Bob Grumman, Rachel Loden. . . . The blog page is here: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Blogs.html And the main page is: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html I am particularly interested in tips on any poetry blogs you like that I haven't yet become aware of. I'm more likely to list the ones that have a higher rather than a lower proportion of actual poetic discussion. Not that I'm averse to hearing about what people ate at the ballgame or where they vacationed, but. . . . Likewise for online poetry journals & other poetry-related sites. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/03ab827b/attachment.html From skip at louisiana.edu Wed Aug 19 16:12:58 2009 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Wed Aug 19 14:24:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarth's Necropolis In-Reply-To: <5382A13D-CCA3-4BCA-A0D3-38665CD36900@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <442C1F08684349B1A49527463EE70833@win.louisiana.edu> I think it was last night I caught him reading a poem, somewhat after he had started, and after listening to a few lines, I started guessing the next line. I was accurate (word-for-word) for two-and-a-half lines out of the following six. I think almost anyone could have done pretty much the same. Maybe it was because the previous lines were so "directive" (to look at it in a nice way). To be honest, I read the first couple poems in a sequence in the new anthology (American Hybrid, based it seems, on A Contro-Versy of Poetry by Kelly and Pack) and thought them very good, but by the time I got well into the 4th, I realized I was back amid phrases and ideas being dragged over the floorboards like a dead horse over frozen tundra (not to be so nice). From lattaj at umich.edu Wed Aug 19 16:27:26 2009 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Wed Aug 19 14:38:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Clark Beyond the Pale In-Reply-To: <77D29BAF-26C8-4ACD-95AD-E80347B719A7@ripon.edu> References: <77D29BAF-26C8-4ACD-95AD-E80347B719A7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: David, For something of more heft than the tepid link lists Silliman concocts (I see you include him), I'd mention Mark Scroggins's Culture Industry http://kulturindustrie.blogspot.com/ (though he tapers off when the school year starts); Jerome Rothenberg's Poems and Poetics http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com/ ; Don Share's Squandermania and other foibles http://donshare.blogspot.com/ ; Curtis Faville's The Compass Rose http://compassrosebooks.blogspot.com/ ; or my own Isola di Rifiuti http://isola-di-rifiuti.blogspot.com/ I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, and others I don't know about. Trying to keep to the regular and (mostly) substantive. John On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, David Graham wrote: > I just discovered that Tom Clark, one of my favorite oughta-be-better-known > poets, has a blog, and a very attractive one it is, with all sorts of TC > poems, nice graphics, & other goodies: > > http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/ > > This may be an opportune time also to make my annual plug-and-plea for my own > Poetry Library, which is continually being augmented and revised. Recently > added Tom Clark's blog, for example! Where it joins previously listed blogs > by such folks as Barry Spacks, Jim Finnegan, Hal Johnson, Ed Byrne, Jeff > Newberry, Bob Grumman, Rachel Loden. . . . > > The blog page is here: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Blogs.html > > And the main page is: > > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > I am particularly interested in tips on any poetry blogs you like that I > haven't yet become aware of. I'm more likely to list the ones that have a > higher rather than a lower proportion of actual poetic discussion. Not that > I'm averse to hearing about what people ate at the ballgame or where they > vacationed, but. . . . > > Likewise for online poetry journals & other poetry-related sites. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Aug 19 16:44:12 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed Aug 19 14:55:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tom Clark Beyond the Pale In-Reply-To: References: <77D29BAF-26C8-4ACD-95AD-E80347B719A7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, John, for the tips. I'll start reading directly. I confess that I haven't visited Ron Silliman's blog much recently-- not since he began doing fewer substantive postings, and more long link lists, with or without snarky captions. To each his own, of course, but yes, I'm with you on liking blogs with more substantive entries. Ron's lists are useful, even so; and he does dig in every now and then and do more than provide a hot link. Nice meaty entry yesterday on the New York School & Joel Lewis, for instance. I'd also be interested in anyone else who cares to comment on what poetry blogs they like, and why. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Aug 19, 2009, at 3:27 PM, John Latta wrote: > David, > > For something of more heft than the tepid link lists Silliman > concocts (I see you include him), I'd mention Mark Scroggins's > Culture Industry > > http://kulturindustrie.blogspot.com/ > > (though he tapers off when the school year starts); > > Jerome Rothenberg's Poems and Poetics > > http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com/ ; > > Don Share's Squandermania and other foibles > > http://donshare.blogspot.com/ ; > > Curtis Faville's The Compass Rose > > http://compassrosebooks.blogspot.com/ ; > > or my own Isola di Rifiuti > > http://isola-di-rifiuti.blogspot.com/ > > I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, and others I don't know > about. Trying to keep to the regular and (mostly) substantive. > > John > > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, David Graham wrote: > >> I just discovered that Tom Clark, one of my favorite oughta-be- >> better-known poets, has a blog, and a very attractive one it is, >> with all sorts of TC poems, nice graphics, & other goodies: >> >> http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/ >> >> This may be an opportune time also to make my annual plug-and-plea >> for my own Poetry Library, which is continually being augmented >> and revised. Recently added Tom Clark's blog, for example! Where >> it joins previously listed blogs by such folks as Barry Spacks, >> Jim Finnegan, Hal Johnson, Ed Byrne, Jeff Newberry, Bob Grumman, >> Rachel Loden. . . . >> >> The blog page is here: >> >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Blogs.html >> >> And the main page is: >> >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> >> I am particularly interested in tips on any poetry blogs you like >> that I haven't yet become aware of. I'm more likely to list the >> ones that have a higher rather than a lower proportion of actual >> poetic discussion. Not that I'm averse to hearing about what >> people ate at the ballgame or where they vacationed, but. . . . >> >> Likewise for online poetry journals & other poetry-related sites. >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/9b120ffb/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 16:56:38 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Aug 19 15:07:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Clark Beyond the Pale In-Reply-To: References: <77D29BAF-26C8-4ACD-95AD-E80347B719A7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908191356h555c363eoc42cc7dc9cacb74@mail.gmail.com> Hi John, I noticed your entry on Ada Merini. You might be interested in seeing some work I translated by Giuseppe Pierri, later husband of Merini whose life (Merini's) was and still is quite tormented, to say the least. http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=82 Yours is a blog I keep on promising myself to read regularly. Unluckily I keep on promising myself too many things. Best wishes, Anny On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:27 PM, John Latta wrote: > David, > > For something of more heft than the tepid link lists Silliman concocts (I > see you include him), I'd mention Mark Scroggins's Culture Industry > > http://kulturindustrie.blogspot.com/ > > (though he tapers off when the school year starts); > > Jerome Rothenberg's Poems and Poetics > > http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com/ ; > > Don Share's Squandermania and other foibles > > http://donshare.blogspot.com/ ; > > Curtis Faville's The Compass Rose > > http://compassrosebooks.blogspot.com/ ; > > or my own Isola di Rifiuti > > http://isola-di-rifiuti.blogspot.com/ > > I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, and others I don't know about. > Trying to keep to the regular and (mostly) substantive. > > John > > > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, David Graham wrote: > > I just discovered that Tom Clark, one of my favorite >> oughta-be-better-known poets, has a blog, and a very attractive one it is, >> with all sorts of TC poems, nice graphics, & other goodies: >> >> http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/ >> >> This may be an opportune time also to make my annual plug-and-plea for my >> own Poetry Library, which is continually being augmented and revised. >> Recently added Tom Clark's blog, for example! Where it joins previously >> listed blogs by such folks as Barry Spacks, Jim Finnegan, Hal Johnson, Ed >> Byrne, Jeff Newberry, Bob Grumman, Rachel Loden. . . . >> >> The blog page is here: >> >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/Blogs.html >> >> And the main page is: >> >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> >> I am particularly interested in tips on any poetry blogs you like that I >> haven't yet become aware of. I'm more likely to list the ones that have a >> higher rather than a lower proportion of actual poetic discussion. Not that >> I'm averse to hearing about what people ate at the ballgame or where they >> vacationed, but. . . . >> >> Likewise for online poetry journals & other poetry-related sites. >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd@ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/cdb4a394/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 19:50:59 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 16:57:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dialectical Thinking, for Bob (maybe based on my creative misreading) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8C8FE3.9020902@nut-n-but.net> Skip Fox wrote: > Bob, > > (I might be reacting to capitalistic senses of opposition/competition > applied to poetry which I've always disliked . . . Old hippie, etc. I even > wrote something to the effect that sending your poetry out for prizes is > like entering your mother in a wet tee-shirt contest. And, it's true, I've > never like actual activity of submitting . . . always seems discomforting, a > bit sickening. So maybe I'm just reacting.) > > I'm with you about contests, etc., but don't see how they can be avoided. > The following gives my half-baked thinking on the dialectical, then on > opposition/apposition. > > I've been opposed to the dialectical for decades but don't know how it is > used fashionably/theoretically these days. It has always seemed a dangerous > narrowing (of thought, of being). It looks at the world through a slot that > pushes us into thinking there is either only one of two way of considering > an issue, say "All human action is a result of freewill or determinism," and > these two are directly opposed(even if it allows a spectrum between the two, > the narrowing is considerable). > > Okay. You're talking about what I and a lot of people refer to as "binary thinking." People indulging in it I call "anti-continuumists." But I don't see how you can rationally wholly dispense with oppositions. No up and down? Right and left? No term for a refusal to accept that things /can/ be divided into two opposing groups--like red and green? (And I acknowledge that there are colors that, even looked at with scientific instruments, are neither--but that only means no dichotomy is perfect. And it's unarguable that there is a clear difference between submitted poems that a magazine accepts for publication and submitted poems that the magazine rejects. > Then, in the hands of Hegel, the dialectical is articulate in a machine-like > view of the world in which every thesis (idea) creates an antithesis and the > interaction of the two creates a synthesis which in turn acts as thesis to > kick off another round of mental begetting. (Sounds masturbatory to me, . . > . not that there's anything wrong with it, as they say. :) ) The virtual dog > chasing its literally tail for ever. (Aside: then welding the dialectical to > the teleological we get jokers in political "thinking" who declare "The End > of History" and in religion a cosmic system working its way to Armageddon > while the individual is ever trying to recapture the innocence of original > conditions. Some counter-point. Result: personal and cultural neurosis.) > I never got into Hegel. But common sense for me suggests that event and counter-event are always happening--liberals dominant for a while until their idiocy has become too blatant, then conservatives dominant until theirs does, etc., in politics. But there's a lot more going on than dialectics can explain. > Of course I teach the difference between freewill and determinism when I am > teaching literary Naturalism. But I realize that even though such > dialectical thought might have some limited generative potential (it tends > to get a discussion rolling, for instance), it really tends to overshadow > the human, multivalent way of thinking. I found myself presenting the > thoughts of both 'sides' and even playing with Sartre and Skinner and > predestination to show students these issues take many forms and have been > with Western culture for centuries, but then I tell them how I realize such > thinking doesn't account for many things. (Now I teach it the same and then > end discussing how such thinking appears significantly limited.) > Can't get into this discussion, however fascinating it is. I can't even imagine free will (because I can't imagine a Me that could freely choose a brain that it could use to choose anything, and the brain is what wills; unless you can believe in a pre-brain that wills, but there's still the problem of how one chooses /that/). > In the same way a number of oppositions try to seduce us into thinking > history is generated solely by the conflict of either classes, races, or > genders. But a disbelief in oppositions could be said to seduce one into thinking the conflict of classes is irrelevant or non-existent. Anyway, I feel it's up to the individual to resist seduction. > Actually, Bob, I'd be suspicious of any system that explicitly or > implicitly claimed to explain how we find ourselves in the world, > historically, individually, etc. They all seem blind when subscribed to at > the expense of abdicating one's own (call it 'human,' 'intuitive,' 'erotic,' > 'fleshy,' 'multivalent,' 'holistic') method of apprehending and thinking. > > I say choose a system and adhere to it BUT always be ready to change it or dump it if further information requires you to. Without a system, you're in nihilism or empty relativism. > Maybe it's as simple as ontology trumping epistemology in my world. I could > well be misapprehending everything. Yet that's how I see it. > > The issue of contesting poetry is a bit ancillary to this but seems to me to > represent another under-considered narrowing. Two poems can be seen in > apposition in the same way that any thing or thought can be seen in > apposition (easiest to see with items from different classes: a needle and a > camel's eye . . . but the same is true, it seems, with two items from the > same class). > > Maybe it's the difference in the terms "apposition" and "opposition," but I > think (and I've not considered this deeply) even in opposition there are > possibilities of items not being necessarily in a contest with one another. > I can't see how they could not be in some way in competition with each other, but--yes--the needle and the camel are in too few races with each other to sanely be considered in competition. For two things to be in competition, there has to be some significant material reward they are clearly and significantly striving for that only one can get. Publication on the Internet may be too insignificant a reward for any competition to be for, for example. > I may have misread your e-mail (and I had not read the entire thread) > because I thought you were writing about any two poems being in contest, not > in the context of submitting them to a magazine. (But even then the contest > is not just for the best but for the type of issue the editors want to put > out . . . with such-and-such a balance, etc.) > Never said it was for best, just for something the poet wants, in this case, publication, credits. > By the way, Bob, I'm not anti-philosophy (or anti-mathematical or > anti-oppositional), but anti-any-philosophy (or math, etc.) which claims > supremacy or, even, that all views are philosophical. > > skip > > Well, I think scientific materialism is the only way to go--but that there are many areas in which it is difficult to apply. Thanks for your views. Condescension not intended, just couldn't think of any other way to put it. all best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090819/2ef44300/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 19 18:51:48 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Aug 19 18:04:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908191133o4f27fec3i80ea30e40ba61609@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net><83 5588.36993.qm@web54111.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4A8C2776.20101@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0908190927h120898cbuacada588ca22ae5a@mail.gmai l.com><4A8C4C2C.8090706@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908191133o4f27fec3i80ea30e40ba61609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8C8204.4090309@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Is the one you posted today in the book, Bob? [prob: I'm in England > now; book's in USA] No, it's a recent one--and is probably not quite finished. From utopia_beach at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 19 21:36:49 2009 From: utopia_beach at blueyonder.co.uk (janet blankfield) Date: Wed Aug 19 19:47:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908190119u362e44a0i95ad692f5a4af449@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908171600.n7HG05nA005912@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33EEBD54-EC77-456A-A6DE-D1A9E82F56D9@verizon.net> <4A89C3E8.9090302@nut-n-but.net> <8CBEDB81D4DC4B1-C98-874@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> <20090819034054.504c40ea@relay02> <7db1d01b0908190119u362e44a0i95ad692f5a4af449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090820023649.4b81b1c5@relay02> sorry to disappoint, judy, but i'm one of those very unusual americans that are actually from the uk. i have only recently started to trace trace my ancestry and it is possible that i have american connections. the anglicisation of my surname would suggest that at some point adjustments were made. there is a an actual utopia beach, apparently. i googled it in the late 90's and remember dark sand but little else due to a pressing urge to find an email address quickly. life was very chaotic at that time - dystopian. you're obviously as much a part of this list as the bad boys who make it what it is. and this list is very good, compared to other poetry lists. janet On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:19:54 -0400 Judy Prince wrote: >>Thanks, Janet. >>Can you delurk a couple more moments, as we have few female delurks and it >>grows lonely for company. >> >>utopia beach seems an awesome grounding for one's email address. You must >>be a USAmerican, but a very unusual one, I think. >>Best, >> >>Judy >> >>2009/8/18 janet blankfield >> >>> >>> delurking in order to say yes, yes, yes. [don't anyone mention >>> wordlessness] >>> poetry is a natural consequence of language use. literature is something >>> else. >>> >>> hunger, crime and punishment, the third policeman: literature. >>> >>> my mother's rythmic tongue. my dad's >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:12:39 -0400 >>> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>I think we're touching on great divide within poetry. I'm on the side >>> >>of poetry >>> >> >>> >>being before and apart from?literature. It may sound strange, but I >>> >>think literature is only a >>> >> >>> >>by-product of poetry. Poetry first is a human instrument; poetry is >>> >>inherent to langauge >>> >> >>> >>but before and apart from it, and before and apart from >>> >>literature.?All languages >>> >> >>> >>have poetry. But poetry is not language. Language is only a means not >>> >>an?end.?Literature >>> >> >>> >>is a superstructure created after the act. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>If we let literature (by which I mean the whole appartus of critical >>> >>judgment, taxonomy, >>> >> >>> >>schools and fashion, etc.) be what poetry is about, we've lost >>> >>something. Dana Gioia >>> >> >>> >>can write a poem about his grandmother and the most important part of >>> >>that act is >>> >> >>> >>whether Dana Gioia got something out of the process. The poetry >>> >>resides de facto >>> >> >>> >>in the act. Whether that language thing/poem, >>> >>once?heard/published/read,?is literature >>> >> >>> >>is secondary and of less concern. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>Every poem that is written about the death of grandmother is >>> >>important in its own way. >>> >> >>> >>Because the human act and activity of poetry is paramount. Whether it >>> >>is literature >>> >> >>> >>of a higher order, whether innovative or traditionally formal,?that is >>> >>not as?important. >>> >> >>> >>That is literature and not poetry. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>Finnegan >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-----Original Message----- >>> >>From: Bob Grumman >>> >>Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm >>> >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>Barry Spacks wrote:? >>> >>>? >>> >>> On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:? >>> >>>? >>> >>>> all poems apparently being winners.? >>> >>>? >>> >>> doesn't follow (strawman argument).? >>> >>? >>> >>Not so. If poems are not racing each other, the implication is that >>> >>they are not in competition. If they are not in competition, the >>> >>strong implication is that they are equal, and thus all winners--if >>> >>you like poetry--all losers if not.? >>> >>>? >>> >>> I find the Gioia poem weak, just as Bob does,? >>> >>> our difference being that apparently Bob wants to pre-scorn (?)? >>> >>> future uses of the mother-theme, seen by him as painfully common? >>> >>> (save perhaps for one effort with enough oddity of craft to it to >>> >>> be > declared? the WINNAH?)? >>> >>>>? >>> >>> I quote him for reference:? >>> >>>? >>> >>> Gee, Anny, surely at least a hundred poets have written poems on >>> >>> this? very subject, using the same dead techniques--and at least >>> >>> fifty of them? did a better job.? >>> >>>? >>> >>> Spring open the gates on all the narrow boxes!? >>> >>How is this "pre-scorning" the mother theme, Barry? And that wasn't >>> >>the subject of the poem, the subject of the poem was Photograph of >>> >>Mother. I'm not pre-scorning that, either, just requiring one using >>> >>it once again, using the same very standard techniques, do a better >>> >>job--yes, doing SOMETHING interestingly different from what all the >>> >>others writing about photographs of their mothers have done.? ? I >>> >>don't see that I suggested there could only be one winning Photograph >>> >>of Mother poem, either. Or any. I can't remember any, but do vaguely >>> >>recall have admired at least one poem about a family photograph. >>> >>There ought to be a lot of such poems, family photographs being a >>> >>potent subject, it seems to me.? ? I have only done one poem about my >>> >>mother, that I can think of. But I may have done thirty or more poems >>> >>about spring. I have nothing against standard themes, or even >>> >>standard techniques. If a poet uses both in a poem, the poet needs to >>> >>do SOMEthing technically remarkable, like a fresh metaphor, or fresh >>> >>diction.? ? --Bob? ? _______________________________________________? >>> >>New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> life's a beach >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> -- life's a beach From cheekc at muohio.edu Thu Aug 20 08:21:23 2009 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Thu Aug 20 06:32:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the pleasures of scorn & pre-scorn In-Reply-To: <99794.82130.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4A89E098.8030901@nut-n-but.net><894FBE4126524B33A13C5272DA98D730@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d70908181502n7678f807ie334 d7f56225e5f9@mail.gmail.com><4A8B398F.60505@nut-n-but.net> <833549.49336.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A8B7F96.1070403@nut-n-but.net> <99794.82130.qm@web54105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54040F92-FF7F-4A05-A43E-A8BE44D4B2AE@muohio.edu> On Aug 19, 2009, at 9:09 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Bob, I'm ever amazed at your ability to respond to nearly every > post. I don't know where you find the time and the energy. > it's called domination ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090820/f43eda13/attachment.html From mandolin at mikesnider.org Thu Aug 20 12:30:18 2009 From: mandolin at mikesnider.org (mandolin@mikesnider.org) Date: Thu Aug 20 10:44:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Returned mail: Data format error Message-ID: <200908201441.n7KEf6n9027429@wiz.cath.vt.edu> The original message was included as attachment -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: instruction.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 28832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090820/14df2d1b/instruction.obj From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 13:26:37 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu Aug 20 11:40:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed dates Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908201026j2355bea7q83550a0008ccee83@mail.gmail.com> On Twitter I got in contact with Jewish food, this recipe seems quite tasty: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/2/Food/Ashkenazic_Cuisine/Israel/Stuffed_dates.shtml -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090820/e4c7ca0b/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Thu Aug 20 21:35:40 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Aug 20 19:46:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Sandburg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> I guess I'm in the minority about Sandburg. He was no Whitman, but I love the variety of subjects?in his poetry, and his sentiments were in all the?right places. A good second tier poet and a progressive with enough of the radical?running?in his veins to be suspicious of?the ideological lock-step. Also, as I recall, while some Modernists, like Pound and Eliot, were sniffing at Whitman or only grudgingly acknowledging him, Sandburg was writing, lecturing, and in general championing Walt?Whitman. It may not be a stretch to say that Whitman wouldn't have the reputation he has today had Carl Sandburg not been an early advocate at a time when Modernisn?would easily?has considered Whitman a bit too much interested in life, and not enough interested in art. And don't forget Sandburg wrote a multi-volume biography of Lincoln and childrens stories (Rootabaga Stories) that are still widely read and appreciated. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: AlMaginnes@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarthia Good point, David. Although I think Whitman should have skipped Sandburg altogether. What you said reminds me of a conversation about jazz I had with a friend who's in his 80's and has seen and heard just about every great player. He was talking about Charlie Parker and how revolutionary he was, and I said that I had never heard Parker as being all that revolutionary because by the time I got to Parker I had been listening to? a lot of people who were influenced by Parker, who had taken what he had done and moved further with it. So while I like Parker and get a lot of pleasure out of listening to him, he's not one of my seminal jazz figures. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090820/93ec7437/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 10:23:59 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 08:34:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] W3 Message-ID: <8CBF082287DAA83-1BFC-A962@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Reconsidering Webster's Third... http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2009-07/Webster.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/c1b06305/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 10:26:55 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 08:37:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] 09 Mass. Poetry Festival press, Oct. 15-18 In-Reply-To: <6e498adf880f63db18c0fe494a17e3ae.21547@e2ma.net> References: <6e498adf880f63db18c0fe494a17e3ae.21547@e2ma.net> Message-ID: <8CBF0829173779B-1BFC-A9BE@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online. Friends -- ? The Massachusetts Poetry Festival for 2009 has been established. This year -- our second! -- the Festival will start on the evening of Thursday October 15th with 7 simultaneous opening events in Boston, Worcester, New Bedford, Salem, Lowell, Amherst and the Berkshires. Then the Festival returns to downtown Lowell for two days. ? During the day on Friday, the focus is on student poets with separate programs of workshops and readings for high school students, college undergraduate and MFA graduate poets. Friday evening there will be a music and poetry event in Lowell cosponsored by the Urban Village Arts Series with Michael Casey, Jessica Smith, Caleb Neelon, and Capoeira Rosa Rubra/Mestre Calango. ? Festival Schedule Thurs (15th) Fri (16th) Sat (17th) Sun (18th) View all events Saturday from 11:00 AM to midnight, downtown Lowell will be filled with more than 35 readings, workshops, performances. There will be the second annual small press fair running all day. There will be an official opening and favorite poem reading at 11:00 AM. There will be readings by dozens of Massachusetts poets. There will be a sequential reading (and book signing) by all the Massachusetts poets with new full length books out in 2009. There will be haiku and dance, environmental theme d readings, smaller hands on workshops (like this one, this one, and this one). Readings by acclaimed African American poets produced by Cave Canem and more readings by such poets as Ann Waldman, Afaa Weaver, Louise Gluck, Robert Pinsky, Franz Wright, Ellen Watson, Dara Wier, Erica Funkhauser, Joan Houlihan, Fred Marchant, Lisa Olstein and many, many more. ? The evening will culminate with a nationally sanctioned Poetry Slam competition with a local Lowell team and an established Cambridge team taking on two national renowned NY team with the winner automatically getting a place in the National Slam Championships. ? Sunday afternoon the Festival moves to the Boston Children's Museum for an afternoon of poetry for kids and families, featuring author/poet/illustrator Calef Brown and other performances and workshops designed for kids and their parents. The Festival closes in Cambridge with poetry and jazz, co-sponsored by Harvard's Woodberry Poetry Room and Adams House. ? How much do tickets cost? $0, Zero, Nada, Free! ? This year all the events are free. We need your support to make this possible. So we are asking all of you to make a donation. You do not have to. You will not be hounded into doing so. But we will give you the option when you sign up for an event to make a donation. Or you can make a donation to the Festival right now by clicking here. All donations are tax-deductible. We are still $6,500 short of the minimum we need to put on the 2009 Festiv al. Please make a donation, support Massachusetts Poetry and help us keep the Festival Free for everyone. ? Important: Space is Limited. Reserve your seat now. ? Especially in Lowell on Saturday, there is limited seating. If you will sign up for the events that you want to attend we will gurantee you a seat. The cost of the ticket: nothing. We do ask for a donation. We have had to guess at how many people will attend certain events. You can help us and yourself by signing up now to hold a seat - and getting your friends to so the same. We will hold your seat for you - and if too many people sign up we can move most events to a larger venue if and only if we know soon that more people want to attend it. So please sign up and get your friends to sign up for the events you want to attend. All of the workshops held in the Mogan Center on Saturday are limited to 15 participants. We will assign participation to them to the people who sign up in advance on a first come basis. So go through the schedule and sign up now for the events you want to attend. We've even got maps that will show you exactly where each event is being held. ? Saturday in Lowell: Meet at Poetry Festival Central ? On Saturday, with so many events being held throughout Lowell, we have created a central meeting place. Please come to the National Park Visitor Center at 256 Market Street. At the Visitor Center, there are all the basic necessities for20your festival needs: bathrooms and space to meet your friends, greeters will provide maps & program books, and guides can assist you with finding your way to events or a good place for coffee, tea, lunch or dinner. Public parking is just down the street at the Market Street garage. You can read more on our?directions and map page. ? Thanks for everything -- and please, spread the word!? Poetry is alive and well in Massachusetts -- see you in October! ? The Massachuestts Poetry Festival Organizing Committee ? Michael Ansara Charles Coe Chloe Garcia-Roberts Jacquelyn Malone Paul Marion Nicco Mele LZ Nunn Massachusetts Poetry Festival http://masspoetry.org/ Office of Cultural Affairs & Special Events 375 Merrimack Street, Lowell, MA 01852 This email was sent to jforjames@aol.com. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. manage your preferences | opt out using TrueRemove?. Got this as a forward? Sign up to receive our future emails. powered by -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/e9c2d9cd/attachment.html From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 11:57:07 2009 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri Aug 21 10:07:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomorrow Night - Heat and Love ~ Frey, Memmer, Olin, Schomburg, Stevenson & Stucky~ Message-ID: <749628.63461.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> STAIN OF POETRY??Saturday, August 22nd @ 7 p.m.?~ Emily Kendal Frey, Phil Memmer, Jeni ?truck darling? Olin, Zachary Schomburg, JodiAnn Stevenson & Janaka Stucky~??Goodbye Blue Monday1087 Broadway(corner of Dodworth St)Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013(718) 453-6343?J M Z trains to Myrtle Aveor J train to Kosciusko St??Pour some poems on your steamy late August with Emily Kendal Frey, Phil Memmer, Jeni ?truck darling? Olin, Zachary Schomburg, JodiAnn Stevenson & Janaka Stucky! ?Emily Kendal Frey lives in Portland, Oregon and teaches at?Portland Community College. She is the author of AIRPORT (Blue Hour Press, 2009).?Philip Memmer is the author of three collections of poems: Lucifer: A Hagiography, winner of the 2008 Idaho Prize for Poetry; Threat of Pleasure, winner of the 2008 Adirondack?Literary Award?for Poetry, and Sweetheart, Baby, Darling. His work has been published in many journals, including?Poetry Magazine, Epoch, and?Mid-American Review, and has been included in several anthologies, including 180 More: Extraordinary Poems for Every Day and Don?t Leave Hungry: Fifty Years of Southern Poetry Review.?Truck Darling (published as ?Jeni Olin?) lives in NYC where she rages in posh isolation with her dog named Good Times. Truck received her BA & MFA from?Naropa University. Her first full-length book BLUE COLLAR HOLIDAY was published by Hanging Loose in 2005. Her most recent publication is a chapbook of pharmaceutical sonnets about antidepressants titled THE PILL BOOK from Faux Press, 2008. Her next book called HOLD TIGHT! will be published this April 2010 by Hanging Loose.?Zachary Schomburg is the author of Scary, No Scary (Black Ocean 2009) and The Man Suit (Black Ocean 2007), and the co-editor of Octopus Magazine and Octopus Books. A collaborative chapbook with Emily Kendal Frey called Team Sad will be published by Cinematheque Press in the fall. He lives in?Portland, OR.?JodiAnn Stevenson makes her home in Bay City, Michigan where she is an Assistant Professor of writing and poetry at?Delta College. She founded Binge Press, to showcase women?s work, in 2004 and 27 rue de fleures, an online journal of women?s poetries in 2005. Her first collection of poetry, The Procedure, was published in the fall of 2006 by?March Street Press. Her second collection of poetry, We, the Emperors was a finalist in the Gertrude Press Chapbook Award in 2008. An excerpt of her Kamikaze Death Poetry is forthcoming in the ?faux histories? issue of SPECS. Her recent blog project, Ms. Fish, the relentless, can be found at:?http://msfishtherelentless.blogspot.com. Some of her?visual poetry?resides atwww.bowlofmilk.com.?Janaka Stucky is practicing the perfection of effort while working on silent relationships with knives, hairpins, & a history of tentacles. Other passions include whiskey and pugilism. He is also the Publisher of Black Ocean and its?literary magazine, Handsome. Some of his poems have appeared in Cannibal, Denver Quarterly, Fence,?Free Verse, No Tell Motel,?North American Review, Redivider and VOLT.?~?Goodbye Blue Monday1087 Broadway(corner of Dodworth St)Brooklyn, NY?11221-3013(718) 453-6343?J M Z trains to Myrtle Aveor J train to Kosciusko St?~?Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi???INFO --?http://stainofpoetry.com/?RSVP --?http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=108933376886? _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/557f1245/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 15:12:03 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 13:22:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words made flesh Message-ID: <8CBF0AA66E28412-FFC-35EB@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/12/tattoos-quotations-quotes-opinions-body-art.html Are there words you would have as?a tattoo? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/6e668a6b/attachment.html From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Aug 21 15:47:54 2009 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 13:58:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words made flesh Message-ID: My daughter's name. that's about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/ce03c480/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 16:25:30 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Aug 21 14:36:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Sandburg In-Reply-To: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> I cannot see how those who like Whitman cannot appreciate Sandburg: [poems taken from http://www.blackcatpoems.com/s/carl_sandburg.html ] *And They Obey* by: Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) Smash down the cities. Knock the walls to pieces. Break the factories and cathedrals, warehouses and homes Into loose piles of stone and lumber and black burnt wood: You are the soldiers and we command you. Build up the cities. Set up the walls again. Put together once more the factories and cathedrals, warehouses and homes Into buildings for life and labor: You are workmen and citizens all: We command you. *Among the Red Guns* by: Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) *After waking at dawn one morning when the wind sang low among dry leaves in an elm* Among the red guns, In the hearts of soldiers Running free blood In the long, long campaign: Dreams go on. Among the leather saddles, In the heads of soldiers Heavy in the wracks and kills Of all straight fighting: Dreams go on. Among the hot muzzles, In the hands of soldiers Brought from flesh-folds of women-- Soft amid the blood and crying-- In all your hearts and heads Among the guns and saddles and muzzles: Dreams, Dreams go on, Out of the dead on their backs, Broken and no use any more: Dreams of the way and the end go on. *Back Yard* by: Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) Shine on, O moonof summer. Shine to the leaves of grass, catalpa and oak, All silver under your rain to-night. An Italian boy is sending songs to you to-night from an accordion. A Polish boy is out with his best girl; they marry next month; to-night they are throwing you kisses. An old man next door is dreaming over a sheen that sits in a cherry tree in his back yard. The clocks say I must go--I stay here sitting on the back porch drinking white thoughts you rain down. Shine on, O moon, Shake out more and more silver changes.*Carlovingian Dreams* by: Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) Count these reminiscences like money . The Greeks had their picnics under another name. The Romans wore glad rags and told their neighbors, "What of it?" The Carlovingians hauling logs on carts, they too Stuck their noses in the air and stuck their thumbs to their noses And tasted life as a symphonic dream of fresh eggs broken over a frying pan left by an uncle who killed men with spears and short swords. Count these reminiscences like money. Drift, and drift on, white ships. Sailing the free sky blue, sailing and changing and sailing. Oh, I remember in the blood of my dreams Oh, they were men and women who got money for their work, money or loveor dreams. Sail on, white ships. Let me have spring dreams. Let me count reminiscences like money; let me count picnics, glad rags and the great bad manners of the Carlovingians breaking fresh eggs in the copper pans of their proud uncles. how they sang before me. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:35 AM, wrote: > I guess I'm in the minority about Sandburg. He was no Whitman, but I love > the variety of subjects in his poetry, and his sentiments were in all > the right places. > A good second tier poet and a progressive with enough of the > radical running in his veins to be suspicious of the ideological lock-step. > > Also, as I recall, while some Modernists, like Pound and Eliot, were > sniffing at Whitman or only grudgingly acknowledging him, Sandburg > was writing, lecturing, and in general championing Walt Whitman. It may not > be a stretch to say that Whitman wouldn't have the reputation > he has today had Carl Sandburg not been an early advocate at a time when > Modernisn would easily has considered Whitman a bit too much > interested in life, and not enough interested in art. > > And don't forget Sandburg wrote a multi-volume biography of Lincoln and > childrens stories (Rootabaga Stories) that are still widely read and > appreciated. > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AlMaginnes@aol.com > To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wed, Aug 19, 2009 10:51 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarthia > > Good point, David. Although I think Whitman should have skipped Sandburg > altogether. What you said reminds me of a conversation about jazz I had with > a friend who's in his 80's and has seen and heard just about every great > player. He was talking about Charlie Parker and how revolutionary he was, > and I said that I had never heard Parker as being all that revolutionary > because by the time I got to Parker I had been listening to a lot of people > who were influenced by Parker, who had taken what he had done and moved > further with it. So while I like Parker and get a lot of pleasure out of > listening to him, he's not one of my seminal jazz figures. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/5a35a13f/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 17:03:05 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 15:14:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Skip, In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. Maybe, C. Wimans? And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for Poetry.? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 5:03 pm Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] people Anny, ? I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) ? I.e., nothing to feel bad about. ? (Not to offend anyone here who has published in Poetry.) ? skip ? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporar y Poetry News &,Views Subject: [New-Poetry] people ? who love my poetry: Dear Anny Ballardini: We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your work. Sincerely, The Editors POETRY 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 Chicago, IL 60611 312-787-7070 312-787-6650 (fax) Subscribe to POETRY today! http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They had the chance with my work, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I don't know if I have to party now. Cheers, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/0feb8b49/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Aug 21 17:15:37 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri Aug 21 15:26:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Sandburg In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm probably the only person on this list who had Sandburg for a baby sitter. After my father was shipped to the Pacific to fight (this was in 1944) my mother took the long train ride back from California, where they'd been stationed, to Brooklyn and her family, and lucky to get a seat, even as a service wife. She was getting pretty hungry--for reasons unclear to me she couldn't take me with her to the dining car. Or maybe she was just too stressed out as a new mother and needed relief. Sandburg was on the train and offered to take care of me while my mother got a bite. I don't think this was the only reason that Sandburg was such a large presence in my childhood and early adolescence. It's hard to appreciate now the degree to which he was considered the great gray poet of the time. His only rival was Frost, and not all that much of a rival. At this point I don't care much for either of them as poets--I've never cared much for Frost--but of the two there's no question which one projected generosity and compassion and a commitment to popular democracy. Much of his work now seems dated, not so much because of his failings as a poet, as because of the changes in the civic landscape that make his optimism seem as quaint as a WPA photograph. Wow. A lot of grief here. I'm just old enough and enough of a pink diaper baby to remember when that optimism didn't occasion a smirk. Post-WWII America became old and Europe youthful. From about my 12th to 17th year I tried to write like Sandburg. I had discovered America beyond the Appalachians on a cross country road trip with my parents. Falling in love with the landscape of prairies and mountains remains one of the profoundest experiences of my life. I can still pinpoint the exact place and time. A sense of total fusion. Sandburg's expansiveness--and his grandiosity--prepared the way. Here's a poem of Sandburg's that I still love. GONE Everybody loved Chick Lorimer in our town. Far off Everybody loved her. So we all love a wild girl keeping a hold On a dream she wants. Nobody knows now where Chick Lorimer went. Nobody knows why she packed her trunk. . a few old things And is gone, Gone with her little chin Thrust ahead of her And her soft hair blowing careless From under a wide hat, Dancer, singer, a laughing passionate lover. Were there ten men or a hundred hunting Chick? Were there five men or fifty with aching hearts? Everybody loved Chick Lorimer. Nobody knows where she's gone. From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 17:32:24 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 15:43:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Sandburg In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Nice one, Mark. I?can see the flaws in his work now. But he was one of the poets who got me into poetry. The first Collected Poems I owned was Sandburg's. Much of his simple, unabashed,?open-faced poetry still appeals to me. This poem (below) appears in the upcoming Visiting Wallace (Stevens) anthology that Dennis Barone and I edited. Finnegan Arms ? ??????????? (For Wallace Stevens) ? Renoir goes on painting. A man from south France tells me it is so. One picture a day, good or bad, the man goes on. And a little work every day on one big picture for God ????? and children and remembered women. So Renoir, his right arm no good anymore And the left arm half gone, So Renoir goes on. ? And when you come again We will go to the Edelweiss for jazz Or to Hester?s dirty place on the river Or to some Chinese dump where they bring what you want ????? and no questions asked, And I will ask you why Renoir does it And I believe you will tell me. ? ? ? ?Carl Sandburg, Billy Sunday and Other Poems ? -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Fri, Aug 21, 2009 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Sandburg I'm probably the only person on this list who had Sandburg for a baby sitter. After my father was shipped to the Pacific to fight (this was in 1944) my m other took the long train ride back from California, where they'd been stationed, to Brooklyn and her family, and lucky to get a seat, even as a service wife. She was getting pretty hungry--for reasons unclear to me she couldn't take me with her to the dining car. Or maybe she was just too stressed out as a new mother and needed relief. Sandburg was on the train and offered to take care of me while my mother got a bite.? ? I don't think this was the only reason that Sandburg was such a large presence in my childhood and early adolescence. It's hard to appreciate now the degree to which he was considered the great gray poet of the time. His only rival was Frost, and not all that much of a rival. At this point I don't care much for either of them as poets--I've never cared much for Frost--but of the two there's no question which one projected generosity and compassion and a commitment to popular democracy. Much of his work now seems dated, not so much because of his failings as a poet, as because of the changes in the civic landscape that make his optimism seem as quaint as a WPA photograph.? ? Wow. A lot of grief here. I'm just old enough and enough of a pink diaper baby to remember when that optimism didn't occasion a smirk. Post-WWII America became old and Europe youthful.? ? >From about my 12th to 17th year I tried to write like Sandburg. I had discovered America beyond the Appalachians on a cross country road trip with my parents. Falling in l ove with the landscape of prairies and mountains remains one of the profoundest experiences of my life. I can still pinpoint the exact place and time. A sense of total fusion. Sandburg's expansiveness--and his grandiosity--prepared the way.? ? Here's a poem of Sandburg's that I still love.? ? GONE? ? Everybody loved Chick Lorimer in our town.? ? Far off? ? Everybody loved her.? So we all love a wild girl keeping a hold? On a dream she wants.? Nobody knows now where Chick Lorimer went.? Nobody knows why she packed her trunk. . a few? ? old things? And is gone,? ? Gone with her little chin? ? Thrust ahead of her? ? And her soft hair blowing careless? ? From under a wide hat,? Dancer, singer, a laughing passionate lover.? ? Were there ten men or a hundred hunting Chick?? Were there five men or fifty with aching hearts?? ? Everybody loved Chick Lorimer.? ? Nobody knows where she's gone.? ? ? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/f2662a87/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:50:27 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri Aug 21 16:01:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words made flesh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's only one classic: Mom. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM, wrote: > My daughter's name. that's about it. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/5ec335b3/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Fri Aug 21 17:53:00 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Fri Aug 21 16:03:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words made flesh In-Reply-To: <8CBF0AA66E28412-FFC-35EB@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0AA66E28412-FFC-35EB@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <90031A24-D9B7-4C71-A0D0-93C69A703CDE@myuw.net> i have a tattoo of the law of the excluded middle, and i used to have a jailhouse tattoo of a quote from the divine comedy, but it looked awful and i had it removed. On Aug 21, 2009, at 12:12 PM, JforJames@aol.com wrote: > > http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/12/tattoos-quotations-quotes-opinions-body-art.html > > > > Are there words you would have as?a tattoo? > > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Fri Aug 21 18:19:44 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri Aug 21 16:30:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I agree that Poetry has become a pretty good read over the last few years. Listening to Wiman (and others) in the Poetry podcast and his enthusiasm and real love for poetry and trying to do right by it stands out. It's not necessarily broad relative to the Grummian Taxonomy and it's far from perfect, but it's now a pub I seek out every month. I really like some of the new ideas for features and sections over the last years too... poets I've known, manifestos, more prose on poetry, etc. c On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:03 PM, wrote: > Skip, > In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. > It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. > Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. > I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. > Maybe, C. Wimans? > And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in > recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they > have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for > Poetry. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Fox > Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 5:03 pm > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] people > > Anny, > > I?ve never sent there because in my lifetime they?ve been largely stogy, > crusted, old. (After a distinguished first ten years or so it is sad to see > what it has generally become. I think the last time I picked it up was when > I was searching for reviews on poets I was writing a secondary bibliography > on. The first was when I thought it should have good poetry in it because of > its foundations. There were no times in between . . . or since.) > > I.e., nothing to feel bad about. > > (Not to offend anyone here who has published in Poetry.) > > skip > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces@wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 4:24 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] people > > who love my poetry: > Dear Anny Ballardini: > > We're not going to be able to keep anything from this submission, we're > sorry to say. Thank you, though, for letting us have a chance with your > work. > Sincerely, > > The Editors > POETRY > 444 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1850 > Chicago, IL 60611 > 312-787-7070 > 312-787-6650 (fax) > > Subscribe to POETRY today! > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/subscribe.html > > 2009-08-17 10:53:56 (GMT -5:00) > > You see how well educated they are, they enjoyed reading my poetry. They had > the chance with my work, I let them for the fourth time. Always the same > answer after a couple of months when I utterly forgot about my submission. I > don't know if I have to party now. > > Cheers, Anny > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 21 20:12:15 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri Aug 21 17:23:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > Skip, > In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the > dead. It's become one of the best literary journals of the 'eclectic > type'. > Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. > I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the > dead. Maybe, C. Wimans? > And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out > in recent years, has to cost some real money to enhance and maintain > as they have. The Lily heiress money made resources not much of an > issue for Poetry. > Finnegan > It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well they'll do. My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have been publishing thirty years ago. Here's a wild guess of mine--that they took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they /should/ open up a bit. So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest edit it). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/9a731c82/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 19:21:31 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 17:32:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star Message-ID: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 Jane Campion?s Bright Star?opening Sept. 18 from Bob Berney?s new company, Apparition?is named for a poem written by John Keats, one of the British Romantic poets. His ?bright star? was Fanny Brawne, an 18-year-old neighbor. Through the story of their brief romance, Campion revisits the subject she?s spent her career exploring: why women try to fit themselves into that narrow slot carved out for them in a patriarchal world?and what happens when they reject it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/70606d0a/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Fri Aug 21 19:40:57 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Aug 21 17:51:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: T&T's Roger Bonair-Agard Message-ID: <8CBF0CFF72D63BE-231C-E143@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_features?id=161520720 Trinidad & Tobago Express?- ?19 hours ago? Roger Bonair-Agard is not the struggling poet, but he accepts that he may never become a millionaire doing what he does for a living. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090821/f2bed3b8/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Fri Aug 21 20:05:05 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri Aug 21 18:15:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Keats' bright star was a bright star, and Keats' imagination of being same. Fanny's role is supportive. Check out the sonnet. BRIGHT star! would I were steadfast as thou art? Not in lone splendour hung aloft the night, And watching, with eternal lids apart, Like Nature?s patient sleepless Eremite, The moving waters at their priestlike task 5 Of pure ablution round earth?s human shores, Or gazing on the new soft fallen mask Of snow upon the mountains and the moors? No?yet still steadfast, still unchangeable, Pillow?d upon my fair love?s ripening breast, 10 To feel for ever its soft fall and swell, Awake for ever in a sweet unrest, Still, still to hear her tender-taken breath, And so live ever?or else swoon to death. At 07:21 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote: >http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 > >Jane Campion???s Bright Star?opening Sept. 18 >from Bobb Berney???s new company, Apparition?is >named for a poem writtten by John Keats, one of >the British Romantic poets. His ???bright >star??? was Fanny Brawne, an 18-year-old >neighbor. Through the story of their brief >romance, Campion revisits the subject she???s >spent her career exploring: why women try to fit >themselves into that narrow slot carved out for >them in a patriarchal world?and what happens wheen they reject it. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Aug 21 20:55:01 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Fri Aug 21 19:05:48 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Jane Campion on negative capability: ?I?m not a natural poetry lover,? Campion admits. ?I studied poetry partly through this project and I needed persistence in order to get through it. I was richly rewarded. Keats had this concept of ?negative capability??the capacity to stand in the mystery without reaching out to reason. Uh no, that's not what Keats meant by negative capability. At 07:21 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote: >http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 > >Jane Campion???s Bright Star?opening Sept. 18 >from Bobb Berney???s new company, Apparition?is >named for a poem writtten by John Keats, one of >the British Romantic poets. His ???bright >star??? was Fanny Brawne, an 18-year-old >neighbor. Through the story of their brief >romance, Campion revisits the subject she???s >spent her career exploring: why women try to fit >themselves into that narrow slot carved out for >them in a patriarchal world?and what happens wheen they reject it. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 22 00:48:45 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri Aug 21 22:59:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Commentary near worthless? Which commentary do you mean-- that around special inserts, direct critical pieces and reviews, or the various other features? Or all of it? I think they've had some very insightful and interesting commentary, particularly in the reviews and the constantly changing prose sections... Some things that spring immediately to memory would be various "poets I have known" pieces (I particularly liked the reproduction of the letter by Guy Davenport), Clive James on Pound (and James generally, though I disagree much of the time), Joel Brouwer's omnibus review that included Logan, the great Chin and Balaban etc translation kerfluffle... The prose pieces accompanying sections (visual poetry, flarf, etc) not so interesting. But then while I respect that they were trying for diversity, most of the poems in those sections didn't interest me at all at either. c On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > Skip, > In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. > It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. > Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. > I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. > Maybe, C. Wimans? > And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in > recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they > have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for > Poetry. > Finnegan > > > It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer representation > of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well they'll do.? My > impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much the same as > they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, but--yes--there are > some token features of stuff the magazine should have been publishing thirty > years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they took Silliman's blog's > visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should open up a bit.? So far > they finally let language poetry in, then visual poetry (checking with > Silliman of all people to find out who should guest edit it). > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 22 00:51:51 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri Aug 21 23:02:30 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Except that is precisely what Keats himself wrote about negative capability: "...several things dovetailed in my mind, & at once it struck me, what quality went to form a Man of Achievement especially in literature & which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason." c On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Jane Campion on negative capability: > > ?I?m not a natural poetry lover,? Campion admits. ?I studied poetry partly > through this project and I needed persistence in order to get through it. I > was richly rewarded. Keats had this concept of ?negative capability??the > capacity to stand in the mystery without reaching out to reason. > > Uh no, that's not what Keats meant by negative capability. > > At 07:21 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 >> >> Jane Campion?s Bright Star?opening Sept. 18 from Bobb Berney?s new >> company, Apparition?is named for a poem writtten by John Keats, one of the >> British Romantic poets. His ?bright star? was Fanny Brawne, an 18-year-old >> neighbor. Through the story of their brief romance, Campion revisits the >> subject she?s spent her career exploring: why women try to fit themselves >> into that narrow slot carved out for them in a patriarchal world?and what >> happens wheen they reject it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 03:22:59 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 01:33:36 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908220022y577599dch4d71d6071e65e7a0@mail.gmail.com> Yes, that is the Negative Capability that has been haunting me since ever. On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Except that is precisely what Keats himself wrote about negative > capability: > > "...several things dovetailed in my mind, & at once it struck me, what > quality went to form a Man of Achievement especially in literature & > which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative > Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, > Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason." > > c > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Jane Campion on negative capability: > > > > ?I?m not a natural poetry lover,? Campion admits. ?I studied poetry > partly > > through this project and I needed persistence in order to get through it. > I > > was richly rewarded. Keats had this concept of ?negative capability??the > > capacity to stand in the mystery without reaching out to reason. > > > > Uh no, that's not what Keats meant by negative capability. > > > > At 07:21 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> > >> < > http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 > > > http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/features/movies/e3ib9d44f33bad88c089200b320dd99e108 > >> > >> Jane Campion?s Bright Star?opening Sept. 18 from Bobb Berney?s new > >> company, Apparition?is named for a poem writtten by John Keats, one of > the > >> British Romantic poets. His ?bright star? was Fanny Brawne, an > 18-year-old > >> neighbor. Through the story of their brief romance, Campion revisits the > >> subject she?s spent her career exploring: why women try to fit > themselves > >> into that narrow slot carved out for them in a patriarchal world?and > what > >> happens wheen they reject it. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/72af0f5b/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 07:23:36 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 04:36:58 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Except that is precisely what Keats himself wrote about negative capability: > > "...several things dovetailed in my mind, & at once it struck me, what > quality went to form a Man of Achievement especially in literature & > which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative > Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, > Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason." > > c > Yeah, I was surprised at Mark's, "uh, no," too. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 07:33:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 04:43:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A8FD770.20806@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Commentary near worthless? Okay, polemical hyperbole. Also an impression from few readings (but a good skim of titles). What the commentary, all of it, is, is academic and wholly unanalytical. I like literary history and biography and I suppose the /Poetry/ articles covering those subjects are okay, but the reviews and critical articles are generally gush, and their discussion limited to Wilshberia. Seems to me--one with only a tenuous knowledge now of what publications are out there--that /Big Bridge/ and Anny's "Poet's Corner" are the only truly eclectic venues for poetry around--the way /Poetry/ was in its heyday. I would welcome learning of others. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/d96060c6/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 09:09:54 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 07:20:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with fringe movements: 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > Skip, > In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. > It's become one of the best literary journals of the 'eclectic type'. > Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. > I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. > Maybe, C. Wimans? > And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in > recent years, has to cost some real money to enhance and maintain as they > have. The Lily heiress money made resources not much of an issue for > Poetry. > Finnegan > > > It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer > representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well > they'll do. My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much > the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, > but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have > been publishing thirty years ago. Here's a wild guess of mine--that they > took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they * > should* open up a bit. So far they finally let language poetry in, then > visual poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should > guest edit it). > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/9505cf7c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 09:12:00 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 07:22:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A8FD770.20806@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4A8FD770.20806@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908220612y38a7bdb7vda1543dac3aa800a@mail.gmail.com> And logically Bob, if I do agree with You! Thank You, Indeed. Well, there is the Light and Dust Anthology of Poetry http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm and there are many more out there, I will forward later as soon as they come to mind. Anny On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > Commentary near worthless? > > Okay, polemical hyperbole. Also an impression from few readings (but a > good skim of titles). What the commentary, all of it, is, is academic and > wholly unanalytical. I like literary history and biography and I suppose > the *Poetry* articles covering those subjects are okay, but the reviews > and critical articles are generally gush, and their discussion limited to > Wilshberia. > > Seems to me--one with only a tenuous knowledge now of what publications are > out there--that *Big Bridge* and Anny's "Poet's Corner" are the only truly > eclectic venues for poetry around--the way *Poetry* was in its heyday. I > would welcome learning of others. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/09b726e5/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sat Aug 22 09:55:05 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat Aug 22 08:05:48 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Yup, mind-glitch. I was remembering not the Keats letter but a discussion around it from many years ago. At 07:23 AM 8/22/2009, you wrote: >Chris Lott wrote: >>Except that is precisely what Keats himself wrote about negative capability: >> >>"...several things dovetailed in my mind, & at once it struck me, what >>quality went to form a Man of Achievement especially in literature & >>which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative >>Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, >>Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason." >> >>c >> >Yeah, I was surprised at Mark's, "uh, no," too. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:03:17 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 08:13:52 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I accepted Mark "uh, no" with a certain degree of equanimity (not to mention uncertainty) but did not irritably reach out for fact or reason. Hal "What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Yup, mind-glitch. I was remembering not the Keats letter but a discussion > around it from many years ago. > > > At 07:23 AM 8/22/2009, you wrote: > >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >>> Except that is precisely what Keats himself wrote about negative >>> capability: >>> >>> "...several things dovetailed in my mind, & at once it struck me, what >>> quality went to form a Man of Achievement especially in literature & >>> which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative >>> Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, >>> Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason." >>> >>> c >>> >>> Yeah, I was surprised at Mark's, "uh, no," too. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/d72c9f6a/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 22 10:33:45 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat Aug 22 08:44:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching a bit and honestly so. Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much more rewarding. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > fringe movements: > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >> Skip, >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. >> It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. >> Maybe, C. Wimans? >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in >> recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they >> have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for >> Poetry. >> Finnegan >> >> >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well >> they'll do.? My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have >> been publishing thirty years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should >> open up a bit.? So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest >> edit it). >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 22 11:08:27 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 22 09:19:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> I concur with Chris. First of all, were comparing Poetry (new) to Poetry (before). We're not talking about the literary magazine/website happens to match up well with mine/Bob's/Skip's/Anny's taste. There is no such thing as the perfect literary magazine (or online mag)?when the?discussion veers to one's predilections. As one magazine (now with a hefty web shadow),?with that?very?broad title of 'Poetry', meaning they should be?trying to 'cover the waterfront', giving?adequate?representation to the?various streams and byways of what Poetry is at any given period, then I believe Poetry is now?'trying' to do that. The magazine will continue to have some blindspots, some bias, some lapses.?There is no way it can really?do justice to all forms/types/subspecies of poetry.?But if one honestly looks at 10 issues of Poetry?from the Nims?to Parisi?eras, and 10 issues from the last 5 years, ?it's?really hard to say there has been no improvement.? In poker?there's an expression, 'let the cards play themselves'. ?I'm saying,?let the issues play themselves...Take 3 hands of issues from Nims-Parisi-Wimans eras,?read them,?and then tell me?whose editorship produced the most lively, eclectic and interesting issues, if only partially reflecting Poetry as it was practised in that particular?era. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching a bit and honestly so. Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much more rewarding. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > fringe movements: > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >> Skip, >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. >> It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. >> Maybe, C. Wimans? >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in >> recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they >> have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for >> Poetry. >> Finnegan >> >> >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well >> they'll do.? My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have >> been publishing thirty years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should >> open up a bit.? So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest >> edit it). >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/8f4e8e84/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 12:14:35 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 09:25:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908220612y38a7bdb7vda1543dac3aa800a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4A8FD770.20806@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220612y38a7bdb7vda1543dac3aa800a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A90196B.4030204@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > And logically Bob, if I do agree with You! > Thank You, Indeed. > > Well, there is the Light and Dust Anthology of Poetry > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm > > > and there are many more out there, I will forward later as soon as > they come to mind. > Anny > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > Chris Lott wrote: >> Commentary near worthless? > Okay, polemical hyperbole. Also an impression from few readings > (but a good skim of titles). What the commentary, all of it, is, > is academic and wholly unanalytical. I like literary history and > biography and I suppose the /Poetry/ articles covering those > subjects are okay, but the reviews and critical articles are > generally gush, and their discussion limited to Wilshberia. > > Seems to me--one with only a tenuous knowledge now of what > publications are out there--that /Big Bridge/ and Anny's "Poet's > Corner" are the only truly eclectic venues for poetry around--the > way /Poetry/ was in its heyday. I would welcome learning of others. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/6a5ce5fc/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 12:15:47 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 09:25:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908220612y38a7bdb7vda1543dac3aa800a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4A8FD770.20806@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220612y38a7bdb7vda1543dac3aa800a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9019B3.4090809@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > And logically Bob, if I do agree with You! > Thank You, Indeed. > > Well, there is the Light and Dust Anthology of Poetry > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm > Ha, yes, for sure--it may have been the first. It's been around so long, I no longer think of it! --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 22 11:28:58 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 22 09:39:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Correction: For some reason I'm always calling Wiman, Wimans.?It occurs to me that I've not?heard his name spoken...Is that long or short 'i' in Wiman? -----Original Message----- From: jforjames@aol.com To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 11:08 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I concur with Chris. First of all, were comparing Poetry (new) to Poetry (before). We're not talking about the literary magazine/website happens to match up well with mine/Bob's/Skip's/Anny's taste. There is no such thing as the perfect literary magazine (or online mag)?when the?discussion veers to one's predilections. ? As one magazine (now with a hefty web shadow),?with that?very?broad title of 'Poetry', meaning they should be?trying to 'cover the waterfront', giving?adequate?representation to the?various streams and byways of what Poetry is at any given period, then I believe Poetry is now?'trying' to do that. The magazine will continue to have some blindspots, some bias, some lapses.?There is no way it can really?do justice to all forms/types/subspecies of poetry.?But if one honestly looks at 10 issues of Poetry?from the Nims?to Parisi?eras, and 10 issues from the last 5 years, ?it's?really hard to say there has been no improvement.? ? In poker?there's an expression, 'let the cards play themselves'. ?I'm saying,?let the issues play themselves...Take 3 hands of issues from Nims-Parisi-Wimans eras,?read them,?and then tell me?whose editorship produced the most lively, eclectic and interesting issues, if only partially reflecting Poetry as it was practised in that particular?era. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching a bit and honestly so. Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much more rewarding. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > fringe movements: > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >> Skip, >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. >> It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. >> Maybe, C. Wimans? >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in >> recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they >> have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for >> Poetry. >> Finnegan >> >> >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well >> they'll do.? My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have >> been publishing thirty years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should >> open up a bit.? So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest >> edit it). >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/93d7b696/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 22 11:37:31 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 22 09:48:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Here's Wiman commenting on Poetry magazine?and what it means to him... In June 1915 Monroe, in a now-famous story, took the advice of Poetry's foreign correspondent, Ezra Pound, and printed the first published poem of T. S. Eliot, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." The other contributors of verse in that issue include Skipwith Cann?ll, William Griffith, Georgia Wood Pangborn, Dorothy Dudley, Bliss Carman, Arthur Davison Ficke, and Ajan Syrian, all of whose work sounds pretty much like this: O leaves, O leaves that find no voice In the white silence of the snows, To bid the crimson woods rejoice, Or wake the wonder of the rose! Just over forty years later, when Rago was editor, Sylvia Plath made her first appearance in the magazine with six poems that, though not representative of Plath at her best, nevertheless practically blaze with radiance beside the poems of Lysander Kemp, Louis Johnson, Edith Tiempo, William Belvin, August Kadow, etc., etc. My point here is not to illustrate how badly most poetry ages, nor to present some sort of "long perspective" by which to judge a contemporary journal... http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/article.html?id=178842 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/81c1f0ad/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 22 12:14:23 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat Aug 22 10:24:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think it's a long 'I' since that was my assumption and had he said it differently in the podcast I'd have noticed... I hope. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 7:28 AM, wrote: > Correction: For some reason I'm always calling Wiman, Wimans.?It occurs to > me > that I've not?heard his name spoken...Is that long or short 'i' in Wiman? From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Aug 22 12:21:02 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat Aug 22 10:31:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Sandburg In-Reply-To: <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It took me a long time to come around to Sandburg. Of course I was presented with pieces like "Grass" and those foggy little cat-feet in my high school days, as well as some of his more patriotic effusions. I didn't hate them, but no officially sanctioned poetry had my fullest attention then. Then I went to college and discovered Eliot, Pound, Stevens, and the rest, and Sandburg vanished from my regard. His aw-shucks persona was just the sort of thing to put off an arrogant undergraduate just discovering the deeps of poetry. The People, Yes? Give me a break, I thought. Certainly the elders in my seed-time consistently patronized his work, and like many a young poet I paid a lot of attention to what it was fashionable to enjoy. For that matter, Whitman didn't get a lot of play in the curriculum in my undergraduate days, since New Criticism was still in full sway. But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now, and Sandburg's work is a reliable pleasure. The flaws & limitations of his poetry are pretty glaring, and of course he's no Whitman even at his best. But his best is pretty damn good, as well as historically significant. Another example of why the major poet/minor poet line of demarcation is so silly. The best work is the earliest. The big collected poems gets increasingly bloated, sentimental, and slack as you move beyond his first two or three books. If you haven't taken a look at *Chicago Poems* or *Cornhuskers* lately, it's worth a visit. The best concise appreciation I know of is Paul Berman's introduction to the recent selected poems he edited for The American Poets Project, the invaluable series put out by The Library of America. Among other things, Berman distinguishes interestingly between Whitman and Sandburg, and makes a case for Sandburg being more like Pound than Whitman. (Pound was an early advocate of Sandburg, a fact that may surprise some.) He also focuses on the early work. Here's one of my favorites. Not one of his jagged vernacular pieces, but a good example of what a fine ear he possessed. Loam In the loam we sleep, In the cool moist loam, To the lull of years that pass And the break of stars, From the loam, then, The soft warm loam, We rise: To shape of rose leaf, Of face and shoulder. We stand, then, To a whiff of life, Lifted to the silver of the sun Over and out of the loam A day. --Carl Sandburg. Cornhuskers, 1918. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Aug 21, 2009, at 4:32 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote: > Nice one, Mark. I can see the flaws in his work now. But he was one > of the poets who got me into poetry. The first Collected Poems I > owned was Sandburg's. > Much of his simple, unabashed, open-faced poetry still appeals to me. > This poem (below) appears in the upcoming Visiting Wallace > (Stevens) anthology that Dennis Barone and I edited. > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/40533bdf/attachment-0001.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 12:39:27 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 10:49:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I myself would reach back past the three of them to the Rago era. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:08 AM, wrote: > I concur with Chris. First of all, were comparing Poetry (new) to Poetry > (before). We're not talking > about the literary magazine/website happens to match up well with > mine/Bob's/Skip's/Anny's taste. > There is no such thing as the perfect literary magazine (or online > mag) when the discussion > veers to one's predilections. > > As one magazine (now with a hefty web shadow), with that very broad title > of 'Poetry', meaning > they should be trying to 'cover the waterfront', > giving adequate representation to the various streams > and byways of what Poetry is at any given period, then I believe Poetry is > now 'trying' to do that. > The magazine will continue to have some blindspots, some bias, some > lapses. There is no way it can > really do justice to all forms/types/subspecies of poetry. But if one > honestly looks at 10 issues > of Poetry from the Nims to Parisi eras, and 10 issues from the last 5 > years, it's really hard to > say there has been no improvement. > > In poker there's an expression, 'let the cards play themselves'. I'm > saying, let the issues play > themselves...Take 3 hands of issues from Nims-Parisi-Wimans eras, read > them, and then tell > me whose editorship produced the most lively, eclectic and interesting > issues, if only partially > reflecting Poetry as it was practised in that particular era. > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Lott > Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:33 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people > > I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... > partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose > inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching > a bit and honestly so. > > Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to > spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge > (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall > well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much > more rewarding. > > c > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny > Ballardini wrote: > > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > > fringe movements: > > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > > wrote: > >> > >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> Skip, > >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. > >> It's become one of the best literary journals of the 'eclectic type'. > >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. > >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. > >> Maybe, C. Wimans? > >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in > >> recent years, has to cost some real money to enhance and maintain as they > >> have. The Lily heiress money made resources not much of an issue for > >> Poetry. > >> Finnegan > >> > >> > >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer > >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well > >> they'll do. My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much > >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, > >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have > >> been publishing thirty years ago. Here's a wild guess of mine--that they > >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should > >> open up a bit. So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual > >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest > >> edit it). > >> > >> --Bob > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/62fd1e74/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 12:42:01 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 10:52:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Sandburg In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: As I recall, I preferred listening to him sing and strum to reading his writing. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 11:21 AM, David Graham wrote: > It took me a long time to come around to Sandburg. Of course I was > presented with pieces like "Grass" and those foggy little cat-feet in my > high school days, as well as some of his more patriotic effusions. I didn't > hate them, but no officially sanctioned poetry had my fullest attention > then. > Then I went to college and discovered Eliot, Pound, Stevens, and the rest, > and Sandburg vanished from my regard. His aw-shucks persona was just the > sort of thing to put off an arrogant undergraduate just discovering the > deeps of poetry. The People, Yes? Give me a break, I thought. > > Certainly the elders in my seed-time consistently patronized his work, and > like many a young poet I paid a lot of attention to what it was fashionable > to enjoy. For that matter, Whitman didn't get a lot of play in the > curriculum in my undergraduate days, since New Criticism was still in full > sway. > But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now, and Sandburg's > work is a reliable pleasure. > > The flaws & limitations of his poetry are pretty glaring, and of course > he's no Whitman even at his best. But his best is pretty damn good, as well > as historically significant. Another example of why the major poet/minor > poet line of demarcation is so silly. The best work is the earliest. The > big collected poems gets increasingly bloated, sentimental, and slack as you > move beyond his first two or three books. If you haven't taken a look at > *Chicago Poems* or *Cornhuskers* lately, it's worth a visit. > > The best concise appreciation I know of is Paul Berman's introduction to > the recent selected poems he edited for The American Poets Project, the > invaluable series put out by The Library of America. Among other things, > Berman distinguishes interestingly between Whitman and Sandburg, and makes a > case for Sandburg being more like Pound than Whitman. (Pound was an early > advocate of Sandburg, a fact that may surprise some.) He also focuses on > the early work. > > Here's one of my favorites. Not one of his jagged vernacular pieces, but a > good example of what a fine ear he possessed. > > *Loam* > > > In the loam we sleep, > In the cool moist loam, > To the lull of years that pass > And the break of stars, > > From the loam, then, > The soft warm loam, > We rise: > To shape of rose leaf, > Of face and shoulder. > > We stand, then, > To a whiff of life, > Lifted to the silver of the sun > Over and out of the loam > A day. > > --Carl Sandburg. *Cornhuskers, *1918. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Aug 21, 2009, at 4:32 PM, jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > Nice one, Mark. I can see the flaws in his work now. But he was one of the > poets who got me into poetry. The first Collected Poems I owned was > Sandburg's. > Much of his simple, unabashed, open-faced poetry still appeals to me. > This poem (below) appears in the upcoming Visiting Wallace (Stevens) > anthology that Dennis Barone and I edited. > Finnegan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/eb841457/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 13:45:53 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 10:57:26 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com><8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > Here's Wiman commenting Basically, he defends the practice of publishing a small number of superior poems versus publishing a large number of poems that range from good to superior. As for what kind of poetry he favors, he says, ". . . a poem into which some strange and surprising excellence has not entered, a poem that is not in some inexplicable way beyond the will of the poet, is not a poem." Gush. Although it almost sounds like he thinks something new would be effective in a poem (as I do). From other essays of his I've read, he favors "accessible" poetry--i.e., status quo poetry. I have nothing against either focusing as an editor on what one considers the best poems or publishing many poems on the grounds that one will have more chance of including the best poems submitted that way (because one's taste is unlikely to be perfect). But my focus as the editor of a general poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of poetry as I could. In his piece, Wiman also says a number of things about poetry criticism that annoy me, but at least he does agree with me that it's of value, and should be on some of the pages of /Poetry/. I don't see why a magazine with its name should have nothing but poems in it, as Wiman says some readers believe; why should it not be /about/ poetry as well? I totally disagree with his view that poetry criticism is necessarily ephemeral (and that the old poetry criticism people still read was written by poets, and we read it only because of their poetry. Poetry criticism's newness as a (comparatively widely-practiced) craft is a main reason we don'tgenre -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/60654770/attachment.html From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Aug 22 12:57:56 2009 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:08:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Sandburg In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7EB38239-2783-48EF-ABBC-D5E80B63C74D@ripon.edu> On Aug 22, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > As I recall, I preferred listening to him sing and strum > to reading his writing. > > Hal =============== Faint praise indeed. Ah, Hal, you do make me nostaligic. You sound exactly like my college English professors all those decades ago. ======================================== David Graham grahamd@ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.mac.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/d5e0908e/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 12:58:19 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:08:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Indeed. And why on earth should the American Poetry Review devote itself entirely to American poetry? Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > jforjames@aol.com wrote: > > Here's Wiman commenting > > Basically, he defends the practice of publishing a small number of superior > poems versus publishing a large number of poems that range from good to > superior. As for what kind of poetry he favors, he says, ". . . a poem > into which some strange and surprising excellence has not entered, a poem > that is not in some inexplicable way beyond the will of the poet, is not a > poem." Gush. Although it almost sounds like he thinks something new would > be effective in a poem (as I do). From other essays of his I've read, he > favors "accessible" poetry--i.e., status quo poetry. > > I have nothing against either focusing as an editor on what one considers > the best poems or publishing many poems on the grounds that one will have > more chance of including the best poems submitted that way (because one's > taste is unlikely to be perfect). But my focus as the editor of a general > poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of > poetry as I could. > > In his piece, Wiman also says a number of things about poetry criticism > that annoy me, but at least he does agree with me that it's of value, and > should be on some of the pages of *Poetry*. I don't see why a magazine > with its name should have nothing but poems in it, as Wiman says some > readers believe; why should it not be *about* poetry as well? > > I totally disagree with his view that poetry criticism is necessarily > ephemeral (and that the old poetry criticism people still read was written > by poets, and we read it only because of their poetry. Poetry criticism's > newness as a (comparatively widely-practiced) craft is a main reason we > don'tgenre > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/db64a640/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 13:01:55 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:12:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Sandburg In-Reply-To: <7EB38239-2783-48EF-ABBC-D5E80B63C74D@ripon.edu> References: <8CBF016D3509B6E-18F4-34B0@WEBMAIL-MZ29.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d70908211325x16cb75d9xe968fdbf325b06c9@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF0BE022EA65A-FFC-38F4@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <7EB38239-2783-48EF-ABBC-D5E80B63C74D@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Unlike them, however, I preferred seeing Shakespeare on the stage to reading it. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 11:57 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Aug 22, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > As I recall, I preferred listening to him sing and strum > to reading his writing. > > Hal > > =============== > > Faint praise indeed. Ah, Hal, you do make me nostaligic. You sound > exactly like my college English professors all those decades ago. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd@ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/0cae87bd/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 14:24:00 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:34:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com><8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A9037C0.4030408@nut-n-but.net> > > I totally disagree with his view that poetry criticism is necessarily > ephemeral (and that the old poetry criticism people still read was > written by poets, and we read it only because of their poetry. Poetry > criticism's newness as a (comparatively widely-practiced) craft is a > main reason we don'tgenre Stupid computer. It threw me out of my e.mail after I wrote "genre." I returned to the e.mail and finished it, then tried to mail it, but the computer had a second incomplete copy which it sent instead. I was trying to say, simply, that poetry criticism's newness as a (comparatively widely-practiced) craft is a main reason canonical criticism isn't read by as many people as canonical poetry is. But I see no reason the best criticism won't be read as long as the best poems. It's just a branch of philosophy, in my book, and Plato and Aristotle are still read, even outside the academies. I also think we tend to read criticism by famous poets because it happens to be the best criticism. But I suspect many more people read Empson's poetry because of his criticism than read his criticism because of his poetry. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 14:25:52 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:36:02 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com><4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > I accepted Mark "uh, no" with a certain degree of equanimity > (not to mention uncertainty) but did not irritably reach out for > fact or reason. > > Hal Wouldn't you have to know what reason is to be able to tell when something is reaching out for it, Hal? --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Sat Aug 22 13:26:35 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:37:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > But my focus as the editor of a general > poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of > poetry as I could. Surely this is a point where reasonable people can reasonably disagree, no? Diversity isn't everybody's prime directive. Seems to me that a publication's (editors') objective should be taken into account when considering them, at least to some degree. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 14:29:04 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:39:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysop s.aol.com><4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A9038F0.7030802@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Indeed. And why on earth should the American Poetry Review > devote itself entirely to American poetry? > > Hal I don't think a publication need morally devote itself to what its title says it is about, but I always thought the /American Poetry Review/ should be prose about poetry entirely. Best is a name like /qwnl;k/ with a subtitle that gives an honest account of what will be on its pages. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/0458d3a1/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sat Aug 22 13:32:40 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:43:21 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: <4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> <4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I can attest to Hal's reasonableness. A propos Ms Campion, The Piano, which has a lot going for it, was ruined for me by the rather crude metaphor of the silent woman, but even more by concern for the instrument. Pianos tend to react catastrophically to high humidity, let alone immersion. That lovely instrument would have been beyond restoration. I really couldn't get beyond this--she had violated the film's realism, which seemed to me its basic strategy. Like a poem, a film creates its own rules, and we tend to experience any breaches as discordant. This may speak to her poetics. Mark At 02:25 PM 8/22/2009, you wrote: >Halvard Johnson wrote: >>I accepted Mark "uh, no" with a certain degree of equanimity >>(not to mention uncertainty) but did not irritably reach out for >>fact or reason. >> >>Hal >Wouldn't you have to know what reason is to be able to tell when >something is reaching out for it, Hal? > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 14:41:19 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:51:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><8CBF15598ABB1FF-15A0-4E52@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysop s.aol.com><4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A903BCF.8000501@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> But my focus as the editor of a general >> poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of >> poetry as I could. >> > > Surely this is a point where reasonable people can reasonably > disagree, no? Diversity isn't everybody's prime directive. Seems to me > that a publication's (editors') objective should be taken into account > when considering them, at least to some degree. > > c But I said "/general/ poetry publication." Yes, I'm all for specialist magazines (although even then I think all viable kinds of poetry should be mentioned and discussed). My semi-comatose press published just about every kind of poem when it was most active though it specialized in visual and infraverbal poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/b9d36115/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 14:43:36 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:53:52 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com><4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net><4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A903C58.2040006@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > I can attest to Hal's reasonableness. Ten to one you've put him in a grumpy mood. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Aug 22 13:46:46 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:57:25 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: <4A903C58.2040006@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> <4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> <4A903C58.2040006@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I can also attest to Hal's grumpines. One of his better qualities. At 02:43 PM 8/22/2009, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>I can attest to Hal's reasonableness. >Ten to one you've put him in a grumpy mood. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 14:30:31 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat Aug 22 12:40:59 2009 Subject: PS Re: [New-Poetry] Campion's Bright Star In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0CD4089CA0E-231C-E019@webmail-d003.sysops.aol.com> <4A8FD538.5040802@nut-n-but.net> <4A903830.2040706@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I think it was Michael Nyman's soggy score that did that film in for me. As to my grumpiness . . . well, Ste. Gertrude's words below speak to that. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I can attest to Hal's reasonableness. > > A propos Ms Campion, The Piano, which has a lot going for it, was ruined > for me by the rather crude metaphor of the silent woman, but even more by > concern for the instrument. Pianos tend to react catastrophically to high > humidity, let alone immersion. That lovely instrument would have been beyond > restoration. I really couldn't get beyond this--she had violated the film's > realism, which seemed to me its basic strategy. Like a poem, a film creates > its own rules, and we tend to experience any breaches as discordant. > > This may speak to her poetics. > > Mark > > > At 02:25 PM 8/22/2009, you wrote: > >> Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> I accepted Mark "uh, no" with a certain degree of equanimity >>> (not to mention uncertainty) but did not irritably reach out for >>> fact or reason. >>> >>> Hal >>> >> Wouldn't you have to know what reason is to be able to tell when something >> is reaching out for it, Hal? >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/09e2b9f0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 15:13:21 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 13:23:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hass Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908221213i67493c6docf44f1e9593c419d@mail.gmail.com> Lit&Lunch with Robert Hass Reading Haiku and Czeslaw Milosz http://catranslation.org/audio/robert-hass-haiku-czeslaw-milosz.htm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/796e484f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 16:27:53 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 14:38:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4A903BCF.8000501@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> <4A903BCF.8000501@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908221327k43ee0df6gbb783438b75e2375@mail.gmail.com> It occured to me Bob that I have been mentioned several times by Ron Silliman, and if what you say is true, then Poetry should look wish to publish my poetry. By the way, I have here Ron's 1062 pages: the Alphabet what an impressive book. The Cover is an impressive work by our Geof Huth, published by Alabama press by our Hank Lazer, I love this book. I open randomly on page 541 I close the book, turn out the light, and shut my eyes, the words only then starting a slow dissolve. We talk long in your livingroom as the sun sets, until even your silhouette starts to disappear from the lack of light. You hand me a check in a "lucky" envelope. You is an other. Words without which every other word feels trapped. Tape.* Twin Peaks*. Prepare to fly. Think short sentences. The wind shoves the dark. I wake in a sweat. On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > But my focus as the editor of a general > poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of > poetry as I could. > > > Surely this is a point where reasonable people can reasonably > disagree, no? Diversity isn't everybody's prime directive. Seems to me > that a publication's (editors') objective should be taken into account > when considering them, at least to some degree. > > c > > But I said "*general* poetry publication." Yes, I'm all for specialist > magazines (although even then I think all viable kinds of poetry should be > mentioned and discussed). My semi-comatose press published just about every > kind of poem when it was most active though it specialized in visual and > infraverbal poetry. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/f9f3a7fa/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 16:28:52 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Aug 22 14:39:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908221327k43ee0df6gbb783438b75e2375@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net> <4A903BCF.8000501@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908221327k43ee0df6gbb783438b75e2375@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908221328j6c3d461ahf12d2313f6d276a2@mail.gmail.com> read : occurred sorry On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > It occured to me Bob that I have been mentioned several times by Ron > Silliman, and if what you say is true, then Poetry should look wish to > publish my poetry. > By the way, I have here Ron's 1062 pages: the Alphabet > > what an impressive book. The Cover is an impressive work by our Geof Huth, > published by Alabama press by our Hank Lazer, I love this book. > > I open randomly on page 541 > > I close the book, turn out the light, and shut my eyes, the words only then > starting a slow dissolve. We talk long in your livingroom as the sun sets, > until even your silhouette starts to disappear from the lack of light. You > hand me a check in a "lucky" envelope. You is an other. Words without which > every other word feels trapped. > > Tape.* Twin Peaks*. Prepare to fly. Think short sentences. The wind shoves > the dark. I wake in a sweat. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> But my focus as the editor of a general >> poetry magazine would be to publish specimens of as many different kinds of >> poetry as I could. >> >> >> Surely this is a point where reasonable people can reasonably >> disagree, no? Diversity isn't everybody's prime directive. Seems to me >> that a publication's (editors') objective should be taken into account >> when considering them, at least to some degree. >> >> c >> >> But I said "*general* poetry publication." Yes, I'm all for specialist >> magazines (although even then I think all viable kinds of poetry should be >> mentioned and discussed). My semi-comatose press published just about every >> kind of poem when it was most active though it specialized in visual and >> infraverbal poetry. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/b9688786/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 22 17:58:24 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Aug 22 15:09:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908221327k43ee0df6gbb783438b75e2375@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF15466E89CBF-15A0-4E1A@WEBMAI L-MY16.sysops.aol.com><4A902ED1.2000102@nut-n-but.net><4A903BCF.80 00501@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908221327k43ee0df6gbb783438b75e2375@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A906A00.3050300@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > It occured to me Bob that I have been mentioned several times by Ron > Silliman, and if what you say is true, then Poetry should look wish to > publish my poetry. I think they take him as an Authority, so may be influenced to publish kinds of poetry he faults them for ignoring. As for /the Alphabet/, I fear I could never wade through it, but it does have some nice passages, brought to my attention by Geof at his blog. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/b8fda1aa/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 22 21:35:23 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 22 19:46:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Most people think Rago was the best editor the magazine had. Munroe second. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I myself would reach back past the three of them to the Rago era. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." ????????????????????????? --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:08 AM, wrote: I concur with Chris. First of all, were comparing Poetry (new) to Poetry (before). We're not talking about the literary magazine/website happens to match up well with mine/Bob's/Skip's/Anny's taste. There is no such thing as the perfect literary magazine (or online mag)?when the?discussion veers to one's predilections. ? As one magazine (now with a hefty web shadow),?with that?very?broad title of 'Poetry', meaning they should be?trying to 'cover the waterfront', giving?adequate?representation to the?various streams and byways of what Poetry is at any given period, then I believe Poetry is now?'trying' to do that. The magazine will continue to have some blindspots, some bias, some lapses.?There is no way it can really?do justice to all forms/types/subspecies of poetry.?But if one honestly looks at 10 issues of Poetry?from the Nims?to Parisi?eras, and 10 issues from the last 5 years, ?it's?really hard to say there has been no improvement.? ? In poker?there's an expression, 'let the cards play themselves'. ?I'm saying,?let the issues play themselves...Take 3 hands of issues from Nims-Parisi-Wimans eras,?read them,?and then tell me?whose editorship produced the most lively, eclectic and interesting issues, if only partially reflecting Poetry as it was practised in that particular?era. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching a bit and honestly so. Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much more rewarding. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > fringe movements: > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >> Skip, >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. >> It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. >> Maybe, C. Wimans? >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in >> recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they >> have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for >> Poetry. >> Finnegan >> >> >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well >> they'll do.? My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have >> been publishing thirty years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should >> open up a bit.? So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest >> edit it). >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/261cf009/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sat Aug 22 21:49:56 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 22 20:00:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] people In-Reply-To: <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBF1AB26652332-ADC-FE@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Some how that message dispatched unfinished...I wanted to say that, as Wiman points out in his piece, Rago and Munroe both published lots of forgettable poetry. It goes with the territory. And I like that point?Wiman makes about some of those forgettable poems: Who knows, some may have been important to certain people at certain times. I happened to pick up a stray copy of Poetry in used booksale recently: 1969, edited by Henry Rago. It includes poems by Wm. Stafford and Lorine Neidecker. George Oppen and Phillip Levine. And Tom Clark whose blog?DG mentioned of late. And others?whose names are not familar to me, and likely?forgotten.? But they may have been of interest at the time and the great Rago must of seen some good in their work. Finnegan ? From: jforjames@aol.com To: halvard@gmail.com; new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people Most people think Rago was the best editor the magazine had. Munroe second. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I myself would reach back past the three of them to the Rago era. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." ????????????????????????? --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:08 AM, wrote: I concur with Chris. First of all, were comparing Poetry (new) to Poetry (before). We're not talking about the literary magazine/website happens to match up well with mine/Bob's/Skip's/Anny's taste. There is no such thing as the perfect literary magazine (or online mag)?when the?discussion veers to one's predilections. ? As one magazine (now with a hefty web shadow),?with that?very?broad title of 'Poetry', meaning they should be?trying to 'cover the waterfront', giving?adequate?representation to the?various streams and byways of what Poetry is at any given period, then I believe Poetry is now?'trying' to do that. The magazine will continue to have some blindspots, some bias, some lapses.?There is no way it can really?do justice to all forms/types/subspecies of poetry.?But if one honestly looks at 10 issues of Poetry?from the Nims?to Parisi?eras, and 10 issues from the last 5 years, ?it's?really hard to say there has been no improvement.? ? In poker?there's an expression, 'let the cards play themselves'. ?I'm saying,?let the issues play themselves...Take 3 hands of issues from Nims-Parisi-Wimans eras,?read them,?and then tell me?whose editorship produced the most lively, eclectic and interesting issues, if only partially reflecting Poetry as it was practised in that particular?era. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Chris Lott Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] people I'm not sure Wiman's tenure is fairly characterized that way... partcularly considering the visual poetry and flarf sections, whose inclusion doesn't match 1 or 2 (imo). It strikes me they are reaching a bit and honestly so. Oh well, Poetry is just one publication I read, so I don't want to spend life defending it. I don't go there for diversity ala Big Bridge (for me, diversity has no inherent value), I go there for a generall well-curated selection of poems. In the last few years it's been much more rewarding. c On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I must say that in a certain way I agree with Bob, there is a very thin line > of demarcation and Poetry has never gone beyond it. It draws extensively > from the application of some social theories that know how to deal with > fringe movements: > 1. absorb them and pay them, they will soon conform to your creed > 2. keep them at large, they will sooner or later die out. > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> >> jforjames@aol.com wrote: >> >> Skip, >> In the last 5 years or so, Poetry has made a real comeback from the dead. >> It's become one of the best?literary?journals?of the 'eclectic type'. >> Even visual poetry got an issue in this past year. >> I'm not sure who gets the credit for bringing Poetry back from the dead. >> Maybe, C. Wimans? >> And the PoetryFoundation.org website, which has really been built out in >> recent years, has to cost some real money to?enhance and maintain as they >> have.?The?Lily heiress money?made?resources not much?of an issue for >> Poetry. >> Finnegan >> >> >> It would seem that Poetry has tried to creep up into a fairer >> representation of contemporary poetry, but it remains to be seen how well >> they'll do.? My impression is that the poems published in it are pretty much >> the same as they've been for decades, the commentary near-worthless, >> but--yes--there are some token features of stuff the magazine should have >> been publishing thirty years ago.? Here's a wild guess of mine--that they >> took Silliman's blog's visitor stats seriously and decided maybe they should >> open up a bit.? So far they finally let language poetry in, then visual >> poetry (checking with Silliman of all people to find out who should guest >> edit it). >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090822/6dbfead4/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 10:38:07 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 07:48:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Nearly twenty years ago I made the following list of reasons people compose poetry for my book, /Of Manywhere-at-Once/. I've since posted it on the Internet, at least once, here, always asking for feedback. I have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. I would think someone must has thought of some reason for making poetry I missed, or violently disagree with one of the reasons I advance. Anyway, here it is again. . . . so much guff is extant about why anyone might decide to write (/solitextual/)poetry, I think it would be helpful to add a few of /my/ explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: 1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that he wants to repeat his enjoyment with poems of his own. 2. He wants to provide others with poetry he thinks they'll enjoy--and therefore give himself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. (Herein, I might add, lies the value of Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom even the most obscure poet can imagine himself being as other once-obscure poets like Keats and Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little autobiography there.) 3. He has something to say to which he believes only he can do justice--that is, he has a need for self-expression. This need might be simply to share his love of tall ships with others, for example, or it might be to try to convert them to some religion or political theory. The point is, what counts is /saying/ rather than /making/ something. 4. He wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades him (directly--or merely by applauding someone else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is naive enough, he might also dream that by writing a terrific poem, he might gain such larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. 5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with accomplish this. 6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. 7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously or unconsciously) his notion of the past so it feels better. I think this an inferior reason for art, and not mine, but it is probably a motive, some small motive, behind some art. 8. There is also what I call the Hillary Motivation--a person sees poetry as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. He wants to prove he can conquer it, or to /find out/ if he can conquer it--as well as experience what conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. 9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. This does not consist of what one experiences, pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is also outside approval, competiveness, and the like. It is simply the pleasure of effectively putting something together--in this case, a poem; in others, a house, say, or a model airplane. /Making/, not /saying/. As Gulley Jimson, the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, /The Horse's Mouth/, most wonderfully puts it: "Certainly an artist has no right to complain of his fate. For he has great pleasures. To start new pictures. Even the worst artist that ever was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the shakes in both hands who sets out to paint the chicken-house, can enjoy the first stroke. Can think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I have transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., into a spiritual fact, an eternal beauty. I am God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a picture, must be one of the greatest pleasures open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only in first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is by far what I most seek when I write poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/b998263e/attachment.html From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 23 09:53:34 2009 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Sun Aug 23 08:04:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bay Area Poetry Marathon, Saturday, August 29 in SF In-Reply-To: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w87000a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: * DONNA de la PERRIERE * EDWARD FOSTER * C.S. GISCOMBE * PAUL HOOVER * * RACHEL LODEN * MIRANDA MELLIS * JARED STANLEY * and * AL YOUNG * are all reading at the Bay Area Poetry Marathon on Saturday, August 29 at 7:00 p.m. Please come and say hello! Location: The Lab 2948 16th Street (@ Capp) San Francisco, CA Contact: baypoetry@gmail.com http://www.thelab.org/events/369-2009-poetry-marathon.html * DONNA de la PERRIERE is the author of True Crime (Talisman House). Work is forthcoming in Gender Outlaw, a book honoring the late kari edwards. The recipient of a 2009 Fund for Poetry award, she teaches writing at CCA & SFSU. * EDWARD FOSTER's most recent book is Febra Alba, a selection of his poems in Romanian translation. His selected poems were published in 2006. A new collection, The Beginning of Sorrows, will be published this October. * C.S. GISCOMBE's teaches at U.C. Berkeley. His recent poetry books are Prairie Style and Giscome Road. Prairie Style won an American Book Award from the Before Columbus Foundation; Giscome Road won the Carl Sandburg Award. * PAUL HOOVER's most recent poetry book is Sonnet 56 (Les Figues Press)--book party to be held at Moe's on October 20. Other recent works include Poems in Spanish, Edge and Fold, and translations of Holderlin and Vietnamese poetry. * RACHEL LODEN is the author of Dick of the Dead (Ahsahta Press) and Hotel Imperium (Georgia). Recipient of a grant from the Fund for Poetry, her work is forthcoming in the &NOW AWARDS: The Best Innovative Writing. * MIRANDA MELLIS is the author of The Revisionist (Calamari Press) and Materialisms (Portable Press at Yo Yo Labs). Her various writing has appeared variously including Tin House, Harper's, The Believer, Fence, Denver Quarterly, and elsewhere. * JARED STANLEY is the author of Book Made of Forest and three chapbooks, including The Outer Bay. He co-edits Mrs. Maybe with Lauren Levin and Catherine Meng. Recent work is in Mary, Zoland Poetry, and Big Bridge. * AL YOUNG's 22 widely translated books include poetry, fiction and musical memoirs. From 2005- 2008 he served as poet laureate of California. Other honors include NEA, Fulbright, & Guggenheim Fellowships. The Sea, The Sky, And You, And I, a poetry & jazz CD (featuring bassist Dan Robbins) came out this year from Bardo Digital. Detailed information about this Berkeley-based author may be found at www.alyoung.org http://www.thelab.org/events/369-2009-poetry-marathon.html http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu/books/loden/loden.htm From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Aug 23 11:23:26 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun Aug 23 09:33:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908230823t6d1382eja0f28d38497a238a@mail.gmail.com> No females on your list, Bob? Best, Judy 2009/8/23 Bob Grumman > Nearly twenty years ago I made the following list of reasons people > compose poetry for my book, *Of Manywhere-at-Once*. I've since posted it > on the Internet, at least once, here, always asking for feedback. I have > not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. I would think someone must has > thought of some reason for making poetry I missed, or violently disagree > with one of the reasons I advance. Anyway, here it is again. > > . . . so much guff is extant about why anyone might decide to write (* > solitextual*)poetry, I think it would be helpful to add a few of *my*explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: > > 1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that he wants to repeat > his enjoyment with poems of his own. > > 2. He wants to provide others with poetry he thinks they'll enjoy--and > therefore give himself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. (Herein, I > might add, lies the value of Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom > even the most obscure poet can imagine himself being as other once-obscure > poets like Keats and Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little > autobiography there.) > > 3. He has something to say to which he believes only he can do > justice--that is, he has a need for self-expression. This need might be > simply to share his love of tall ships with others, for example, or it might > be to try to convert them to some religion or political theory. The point > is, what counts is *saying* rather than *making* something. > > 4. He wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some > adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades him (directly--or > merely by applauding someone else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is > naive enough, he might also dream that by writing a terrific poem, he might > gain such larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. > > 5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with > accomplish this. > > 6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. > > 7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously > or unconsciously) his notion of the past so it feels better. I think this an > inferior reason for art, and not mine, but it is probably a motive, some > small motive, behind some art. > > 8. There is also what I call the Hillary Motivation--a person sees poetry > as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. He wants to prove he > can conquer it, or to *find out* if he can conquer it--as well as > experience what conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. > > 9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. This does not consist of what > one experiences, pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is also > outside approval, competiveness, and the like. It is simply the pleasure of > effectively putting something together--in this case, a poem; in others, a > house, say, or a model airplane. *Making*, not *saying*. As Gulley Jimson, > the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, *The Horse's Mouth*, most > wonderfully puts it: "Certainly an artist has no right to complain of his > fate. For he has great pleasures. To start new pictures. Even the worst > artist that ever was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the shakes in > both hands who sets out to paint the chicken-house, can enjoy the first > stroke. Can think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I have > transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., into a spiritual fact, an eternal > beauty. I am God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a picture, must be > one of the greatest pleasures open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only > in first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is by far what I most seek > when I write poetry. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/2fb175f1/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 11:26:34 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun Aug 23 09:36:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Reaching out after reasons--not what negative capability is all about. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Nearly twenty years ago I made the following list of reasons people > compose poetry for my book, *Of Manywhere-at-Once*. I've since posted it > on the Internet, at least once, here, always asking for feedback. I have > not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. I would think someone must has > thought of some reason for making poetry I missed, or violently disagree > with one of the reasons I advance. Anyway, here it is again. > > . . . so much guff is extant about why anyone might decide to write (* > solitextual*)poetry, I think it would be helpful to add a few of *my*explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: > > 1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that he wants to repeat > his enjoyment with poems of his own. > > 2. He wants to provide others with poetry he thinks they'll enjoy--and > therefore give himself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. (Herein, I > might add, lies the value of Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom > even the most obscure poet can imagine himself being as other once-obscure > poets like Keats and Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little > autobiography there.) > > 3. He has something to say to which he believes only he can do > justice--that is, he has a need for self-expression. This need might be > simply to share his love of tall ships with others, for example, or it might > be to try to convert them to some religion or political theory. The point > is, what counts is *saying* rather than *making* something. > > 4. He wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some > adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades him (directly--or > merely by applauding someone else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is > naive enough, he might also dream that by writing a terrific poem, he might > gain such larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. > > 5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with > accomplish this. > > 6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. > > 7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously > or unconsciously) his notion of the past so it feels better. I think this an > inferior reason for art, and not mine, but it is probably a motive, some > small motive, behind some art. > > 8. There is also what I call the Hillary Motivation--a person sees poetry > as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. He wants to prove he > can conquer it, or to *find out* if he can conquer it--as well as > experience what conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. > > 9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. This does not consist of what > one experiences, pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is also > outside approval, competiveness, and the like. It is simply the pleasure of > effectively putting something together--in this case, a poem; in others, a > house, say, or a model airplane. *Making*, not *saying*. As Gulley Jimson, > the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, *The Horse's Mouth*, most > wonderfully puts it: "Certainly an artist has no right to complain of his > fate. For he has great pleasures. To start new pictures. Even the worst > artist that ever was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the shakes in > both hands who sets out to paint the chicken-house, can enjoy the first > stroke. Can think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I have > transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., into a spiritual fact, an eternal > beauty. I am God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a picture, must be > one of the greatest pleasures open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only > in first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is by far what I most seek > when I write poetry. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/3c9e6d4d/attachment-0001.html From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 11:49:46 2009 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sun Aug 23 10:00:10 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> It is hard to either argue with or add to the list--it just about covers the territory. But it certainly should spark some discussion and raise questions, some unanswerable. Of those nine basic motivations, which one or two are most likely to produce great poetry? Which was the prime mover in your own writing? I began (at age 18) with #8...the sheer challenge of doing a difficult thing well. As it turned out, however, that was not a sufficient basis for writing good poems that mattered. Instead, it brought forth clever poems for which I was praised, but they neither contained nor inspired any emotion larger or deeper than "Wow. Look at that!" To Number 4, the desire for approval, I would say that it does not apply only to the local adults in one's real life. I think we seek the (imaginary) approval of the poets who have gone before. This lets us install our favorites as our inner critics, which protects us from live critics. If I keep (e.g.) Ezra Pound's voice in my head, and persuade myself that he would have liked my latest poem, and would have said so in the voice I know so well, then I don't care who else likes it. There now. It's a start. David Weinstock On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Nearly twenty years ago I made the following list of reasons people > compose poetry for my book, *Of Manywhere-at-Once*. I've since posted it > on the Internet, at least once, here, always asking for feedback. I have > not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. I would think someone must has > thought of some reason for making poetry I missed, or violently disagree > with one of the reasons I advance. Anyway, here it is again. > > . . . so much guff is extant about why anyone might decide to write (* > solitextual*)poetry, I think it would be helpful to add a few of *my*explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: > > 1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that he wants to repeat > his enjoyment with poems of his own. > > 2. He wants to provide others with poetry he thinks they'll enjoy--and > therefore give himself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. (Herein, I > might add, lies the value of Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom > even the most obscure poet can imagine himself being as other once-obscure > poets like Keats and Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little > autobiography there.) > > 3. He has something to say to which he believes only he can do > justice--that is, he has a need for self-expression. This need might be > simply to share his love of tall ships with others, for example, or it might > be to try to convert them to some religion or political theory. The point > is, what counts is *saying* rather than *making* something. > > 4. He wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some > adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades him (directly--or > merely by applauding someone else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is > naive enough, he might also dream that by writing a terrific poem, he might > gain such larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. > > 5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with > accomplish this. > > 6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. > > 7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously > or unconsciously) his notion of the past so it feels better. I think this an > inferior reason for art, and not mine, but it is probably a motive, some > small motive, behind some art. > > 8. There is also what I call the Hillary Motivation--a person sees poetry > as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. He wants to prove he > can conquer it, or to *find out* if he can conquer it--as well as > experience what conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. > > 9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. This does not consist of what > one experiences, pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is also > outside approval, competiveness, and the like. It is simply the pleasure of > effectively putting something together--in this case, a poem; in others, a > house, say, or a model airplane. *Making*, not *saying*. As Gulley Jimson, > the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, *The Horse's Mouth*, most > wonderfully puts it: "Certainly an artist has no right to complain of his > fate. For he has great pleasures. To start new pictures. Even the worst > artist that ever was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the shakes in > both hands who sets out to paint the chicken-house, can enjoy the first > stroke. Can think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I have > transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., into a spiritual fact, an eternal > beauty. I am God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a picture, must be > one of the greatest pleasures open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only > in first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is by far what I most seek > when I write poetry. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/3ae1bf03/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 12:18:30 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 10:29:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Which leads to a possible other couple of reasons: 10. To be in dialogue with predecessors he admires. 11. To be in dialogue with the world outside himself. Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. Even if English speakers were to find a viable alternative the vast majority of people would continue to speak languages so profoundly gendered that they couldn't be made gender-neutral without collapsing. Of course we could eliminate pronouns entirely. My alternative fantasy is the re-gendering of the English language. I imagine a congress whose job it was to assign genders to all nouns. The result would be greater flexibility in word order and clarity of reference, but what I really find appealing is the pure spectacle of it. Could be more violent than rugby. Imagine the arguments over basic principles--should all things pointy be male? All things with hollows female? What about things with no conceivable inherent hints as to gender? Football (the object or the game)--male or female? Armpit--male or female? Would categories be brokered--games, male, sports equipment, female, non-reproductive bodyparts-- What about ice cream or pillow? How about the words "poem" and "poet," which in romance languages look feminine but take masculine pronouns? I touched on all of this in a very old poem (another reason for writing poetry is we get to drop poems on the unsuspecting). ANTHROPOLOGY red mushroom caps women will not pick them as they are obviously male. we have other rules: the women must not wield knives or carry sticks even for making fire, which is therefore a man's job. likewise, a man will not make pots, his thumbs would violate them, or cook-- the food quickened back to life. in this way we are forced to cooperate it is a man harvests wheat a woman gathers berries. . consider the coconut, round, but growing at the tops of trees, and only to be reached by climbing-- a delicacy among us, though plentiful. when they fall the women gather them. otherwise a man climbs a tree with a girl on his back. Best, Mark (him/herself) At 11:49 AM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >It is hard to either argue with or add to the >list--it just about covers the territory. But it >certainly should spark some discussion and raise >questions, some unanswerable. Of those nine >basic motivations, which one or two are most >likely to produce great poetry? Which was the prime mover in your own writing? > >I began (at age 18) with #8...the sheer >challenge of doing a difficult thing well. As it >turned out, however, that was not a sufficient >basis for writing good poems that mattered. >Instead, it brought forth clever poems for which >I was praised, but they neither contained nor >inspired any emotion larger or deeper than "Wow. Look at that!" > >To Number 4, the desire for approval, I would >say that it does not apply only to the local >adults in one's real life. I think we seek the >(imaginary) approval of the poets who have gone >before. This lets us install our favorites as >our inner critics, which protects us from live >critics. If I keep (e.g.) Ezra Pound's voice in >my head, and persuade myself that he would have >liked my latest poem, and would have said so in >the voice I know so well, then I don't care who else likes it. > >There now. It's a start. > >David Weinstock > > > >On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Bob Grumman ><bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net> wrote: >Nearly twenty years ago I made the following >list of reasons people compose poetry for my >book, Of Manywhere-at-Once.? I've since posted >it on the Internet, at least once, here, always >asking for feedback.? I have not yet gotten >any, at all, which amazes me.? I would think >someone must has thought of some reason for >making poetry I missed, or violently disagree >with one of the reasons I advance.? Anyway, here it is again. > >. . . so much guff is extant about why anyone >might decide to write (solitextual)poetry, I >think it would be helpful to add a few of my >explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: > >1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much >that he wants to repeat his enjoyment with poems of his own. > >2. He wants to provide others with poetry he >thinks they'll enjoy--and therefore give himself >the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. >(Herein, I might add, lies the value of >Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom >even the most obscure poet can imagine himself >being as other once-obscure poets like Keats and >Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little autobiography there.) > >3. He has something to say to which he believes >only he can do justice--that is, he has a need >for self-expression. This need might be simply >to share his love of tall ships with others, for >example, or it might be to try to convert them >to some religion or political theory. The point >is, what counts is saying rather than making something. > >4. He wants approval--most usually, in the >beginning, the approval of some adult >poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades >him (directly--or merely by applauding someone >else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is >naive enough, he might also dream that by >writing a terrific poem, he might gain such >larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. > >5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes >that composing a poem with accomplish this. > >6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. > >7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, >to re-render (consciously or unconsciously) his >notion of the past so it feels better. I think >this an inferior reason for art, and not mine, >but it is probably a motive, some small motive, behind some art. > >8. There is also what I call the Hillary >Motivation--a person sees poetry as a challenge >worth meeting simply because it's there. He >wants to prove he can conquer it, or to find out >if he can conquer it--as well as experience what >conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. > >9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. >This does not consist of what one experiences, >pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is >also outside approval, competiveness, and the >like. It is simply the pleasure of effectively >putting something together--in this case, a >poem; in others, a house, say, or a model >airplane. Making, not saying. As Gulley Jimson, >the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, >The Horse's Mouth, most wonderfully puts it: >"Certainly an artist has no right to complain of >his fate. For he has great pleasures. To start >new pictures. Even the worst artist that ever >was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the >shakes in both hands who sets out to paint the >chicken-house, can enjoy the first stroke. Can >think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I >have transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., >into a spiritual fact, an eternal beauty. I am >God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a >picture, must be one of the greatest pleasures >open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only in >first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is >by far what I most seek when I write poetry. > >--Bob > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sun Aug 23 12:29:09 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun Aug 23 10:39:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Reaching out after reasons--not what negative capability is all about. There are posts that come along when I find myself thinking "I can't WAIT to hear how Hal's going to deal with this." Bob'y "why people write poetry" post was one of them, like pitching a big fat slow pitch... and I *still* choked on my coffee... Which isn't to belittle Bob's post. But I wonder if it isn't like creating one of those plot wheels, the kind that reduce all novels to 12 basic plots. Bob's list covers a lot of the basic reasons, but the stories poets tell-- the details-- in response to questions about why they write are much more interesting than the abstracts. Among other reasons I sometimes try to write poetry would be my father's fists, having experienced hunger, hearing David Graham discuss poetic closure, to get laid in high school, the big red hardback _Treasury of English Poetry_, an OCD-ish tendency to repeat words and phrases until they dissolve in my mouth, disappointment in song lyrics separated from their accompanying music, a desire to spite my deathwish and create something that might be remembered-- no, *matter*-- to someone after I'm gone... c From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Aug 23 12:32:04 2009 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun Aug 23 10:42:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> On Aug 23, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bob wrote: > always asking for feedback. I > have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. Solid list, Bob, and no sign of a grumble in it, no limbs lost from razor-edged partitions either, remarkable accomplishment. Personally, I'd go for "all of the above," but back to the wall would choose reason #9, good old Reason #9. feedbackingly, Barry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 12:58:44 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:09:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908230958h57ee2f3cv851a6b1527005b55@mail.gmail.com> Stevens?s conscience made him confront the chief issues of his era: the waning of religion, the indifferent nature of the physical universe, the theories of Marxism and socialist realism, the effects of the Depression, the uncertainties of philosophical knowledge, and the possibility of a profound American culture, present and future. Others treated those issues, but very few of them possessed Stevens?s intuitive sense of both the intimate and the sublime, articulated in verse of unprecedented invention, phrased in a marked style we now call ?Stevensian? (as we would say ?Keatsian? or ?Yeatsian?). In the end, he arrived at a firm sense of a universe dignified by human endeavor but surrounded always ? as in the magnificent sequence ?The Auroras of Autumn? ? by the ?innocent? creations and destructions within the universe of which he is part. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/books/review/Vendler-t.html?_r=1 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/ebaf5fc5/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Aug 23 13:00:28 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:10:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> Mark, This is a serious issue, in my opinion. When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue for young females who need to identify with females, who need female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal "he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. Best, Judy 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > > > Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite appearances. > I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in informal contexts "he/she" > or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give them a rest for the moment. If > all of the serious gendered injustices were to disappear I think no one > would worry about this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of > gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is > true. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/457ff21c/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 14:02:41 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:14:42 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A918441.9090308@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > It is hard to either argue with or add to the list--it just about > covers the territory. But it certainly should spark some discussion > and raise questions, some unanswerable. Of those nine basic > motivations, which one or two are most likely to produce great poetry? > Which was the prime mover in your own writing? Interesting questions. Without thinking deeply about it, I tend to believe that all the motivations I list have an effect--but each to a different degree in different poets. I said number 9 is my main motivation, and I do think that it will force one to one's best efforts simply because I believe the pleasure of creating something will (generally) be proportionate to the value of the creation. But it's very complicated. I'm sure the joy of doing something very difficult will enter into it--although #8 is also the joy of doing something no one else has ever done, something significant in some way that no one else has ever done. Hmmm, could write a whole book trying to get a good answer to your questions > > I began (at age 18) with #8...the sheer challenge of doing a difficult > thing well. As it turned out, however, that was not a sufficient basis > for writing good poems that mattered. Instead, it brought forth clever > poems for which I was praised, but they neither contained nor inspired > any emotion larger or deeper than "Wow. Look at that!" > > To Number 4, the desire for approval, I would say that it does not > apply only to the local adults in one's real life. I think we seek the > (imaginary) approval of the poets who have gone before. This lets us > install our favorites as our inner critics, which protects us from > live critics. If I keep (e.g.) Ezra Pound's voice in my head, and > persuade myself that he would have liked my latest poem, and would > have said so in the voice I know so well, then I don't care who else > likes it. Good addition. You have me thinking, David. Much thanks. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 13:15:45 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:26:21 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue even to the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal pronoun in Jane Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." Very little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to others. God knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever question them. I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two publishers recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, according to said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody must actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously--sometimes I need a sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to can it, they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any genderless alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? Mark At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Mark,? > >This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? > >When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to >both genders, I do not feel as if it applies to >me or any female. ? I read "man"----not "woman". >? I feel excluded. ? This is an even more >important issue for young females who need to >identify with females, who need female role >models. ? If they read "he", they will 'see' >males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. ? > >Style manuals and publishing companies, in the >late 1960s and after, guidelined non-sexist ways >to write, giving plenty of examples, dealing, >among other situations, with the universal "he". >? These guidelines have been used effectively up >to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" for both >genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago >[perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. ? >I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. > >When most males feel comfortable with "she" >representing them as well as females, then we'll >have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? Until >then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? > >Best, > >Judy > >2009/8/23 Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net> > > >Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is >genderless, despite appearances. I usually use >the other alternative, "one," or in informal >contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've >inspired me to give them a rest for the moment. >If all of the serious gendered injustices were >to disappear I think no one would worry about >this. I guess the theory is that the persistence >of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to >inequalities. I doubt this is true. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 14:16:42 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:27:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A91878A.3070009@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Which leads to a possible other couple of reasons: > > 10. To be in dialogue with predecessors he admires. > > 11. To be in dialogue with the world outside himself. Maybe, but my first feeling is that both of these would fit into the desire for the approval of others. But maybe a reason might be to become a member of the world community of poets. . . . --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 13:17:21 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:28:14 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A918441.9090308@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <4A918441.9090308@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: #9: see TS Eliot, "poetry is a superior form of entertainment." Or some such. Mark At 02:02 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >David Weinstock wrote: >>It is hard to either argue with or add to the list--it just about >>covers the territory. But it certainly should spark some discussion >>and raise questions, some unanswerable. Of those nine basic >>motivations, which one or two are most likely to produce great >>poetry? Which was the prime mover in your own writing? >Interesting questions. Without thinking deeply about it, I tend to >believe that all the motivations I list have an effect--but each to >a different degree in different poets. I said number 9 is my main >motivation, and I do think that it will force one to one's best >efforts simply because I believe the pleasure of creating something >will (generally) be proportionate to the value of the creation. But >it's very complicated. I'm sure the joy of doing something very >difficult will enter into it--although #8 is also the joy of doing >something no one else has ever done, something significant in some >way that no one else has ever done. > >Hmmm, could write a whole book trying to get a good answer to your questions > >> >>I began (at age 18) with #8...the sheer challenge of doing a >>difficult thing well. As it turned out, however, that was not a >>sufficient basis for writing good poems that mattered. Instead, it >>brought forth clever poems for which I was praised, but they >>neither contained nor inspired any emotion larger or deeper than >>"Wow. Look at that!" >> >>To Number 4, the desire for approval, I would say that it does not >>apply only to the local adults in one's real life. I think we seek >>the (imaginary) approval of the poets who have gone before. This >>lets us install our favorites as our inner critics, which protects >>us from live critics. If I keep (e.g.) Ezra Pound's voice in my >>head, and persuade myself that he would have liked my latest poem, >>and would have said so in the voice I know so well, then I don't >>care who else likes it. >Good addition. > >You have me thinking, David. Much thanks. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 14:19:47 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:29:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A918843.9070502@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Reaching out after reasons--not what negative capability is all about. >> > > There are posts that come along when I find myself thinking "I can't > WAIT to hear how Hal's going to deal with this." Bob'y "why people > write poetry" post was one of them, like pitching a big fat slow > pitch... and I *still* choked on my coffee... > > Which isn't to belittle Bob's post. But I wonder if it isn't like > creating one of those plot wheels, the kind that reduce all novels to > 12 basic plots. Bob's list covers a lot of the basic reasons, but the > stories poets tell-- the details-- in response to questions about why > they write are much more interesting than the abstracts. > > Among other reasons I sometimes try to write poetry would be my > father's fists, having experienced hunger, hearing David Graham > discuss poetic closure, to get laid in high school, the big red > hardback _Treasury of English Poetry_, an OCD-ish tendency to repeat > words and phrases until they dissolve in my mouth, disappointment in > song lyrics separated from their accompanying music, a desire to spite > my deathwish and create something that might be remembered-- no, > *matter*-- to someone after I'm gone... > > c > I would saying you're reaching for reasons but don't care to generalize, Chris. As for Hal, he's a phobosopher, and proud of it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/4165bc63/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 13:21:00 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:31:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91878A.3070009@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <4A91878A.3070009@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: No, poets of the past are for me introjects of a different kind. I don't really care whether Chaucer approves of me. I assume equality within the society of practitioners. I do care to be in dialogue with him. Mark At 02:16 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Which leads to a possible other couple of reasons: >> >>10. To be in dialogue with predecessors he admires. >> >>11. To be in dialogue with the world outside himself. > >Maybe, but my first feeling is that both of these would fit into the >desire for the approval of others. But maybe a reason might be to >become a member of the world community of poets. . . . > >--Bob > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sun Aug 23 13:24:11 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:34:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A918843.9070502@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <4A918843.9070502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: My reaction to Hal was to laugh. The second part was in answer to your post. Obviously I don't care to generalize it. That's my point: I don't see how the generalization are interesting... no more interesting than the 7 plots which cover Shakespeare's plays, etc. An individual sharing why they do what they do can be fascinating... generalized abstractions of categories meant to contain those vital stories and details, not so much. c On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > Reaching out after reasons--not what negative capability is all about. > > > There are posts that come along when I find myself thinking "I can't > WAIT to hear how Hal's going to deal with this." Bob'y "why people > write poetry" post was one of them, like pitching a big fat slow > pitch... and I *still* choked on my coffee... > > Which isn't to belittle Bob's post. But I wonder if it isn't like > creating one of those plot wheels, the kind that reduce all novels to > 12 basic plots. Bob's list covers a lot of the basic reasons, but the > stories poets tell-- the details-- in response to questions about why > they write are much more interesting than the abstracts. > > Among other reasons I sometimes try to write poetry would be my > father's fists, having experienced hunger, hearing David Graham > discuss poetic closure, to get laid in high school, the big red > hardback _Treasury of English Poetry_, an OCD-ish tendency to repeat > words and phrases until they dissolve in my mouth, disappointment in > song lyrics separated from their accompanying music, a desire to spite > my deathwish and create something that might be remembered-- no, > *matter*-- to someone after I'm gone... > > c > > > I would saying you're reaching for reasons but don't care to generalize, > Chris.? As for Hal, he's a phobosopher, and proud of it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chris at chrislott.org Sun Aug 23 13:25:55 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:36:18 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <4A918843.9070502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: And it's my duty to point this out at least as much as it's your duty to throw rocks at every mainstream poem posted here, no? c On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > My reaction to Hal was to laugh. The second part was in answer to your post. > > Obviously I don't care to generalize it. That's my point: I don't see > how the generalization are interesting... no more interesting than the > 7 plots which cover Shakespeare's plays, etc. An individual sharing > why they do what they do can be fascinating... generalized > abstractions of categories meant to contain those vital stories and > details, not so much. > > c > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Chris Lott wrote: >> >> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> >> Reaching out after reasons--not what negative capability is all about. >> >> >> There are posts that come along when I find myself thinking "I can't >> WAIT to hear how Hal's going to deal with this." Bob'y "why people >> write poetry" post was one of them, like pitching a big fat slow >> pitch... and I *still* choked on my coffee... >> >> Which isn't to belittle Bob's post. But I wonder if it isn't like >> creating one of those plot wheels, the kind that reduce all novels to >> 12 basic plots. Bob's list covers a lot of the basic reasons, but the >> stories poets tell-- the details-- in response to questions about why >> they write are much more interesting than the abstracts. >> >> Among other reasons I sometimes try to write poetry would be my >> father's fists, having experienced hunger, hearing David Graham >> discuss poetic closure, to get laid in high school, the big red >> hardback _Treasury of English Poetry_, an OCD-ish tendency to repeat >> words and phrases until they dissolve in my mouth, disappointment in >> song lyrics separated from their accompanying music, a desire to spite >> my deathwish and create something that might be remembered-- no, >> *matter*-- to someone after I'm gone... >> >> c >> >> >> I would saying you're reaching for reasons but don't care to generalize, >> Chris.? As for Hal, he's a phobosopher, and proud of it. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 14:26:23 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:36:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A9189CF.5070608@nut-n-but.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bob wrote: > >> always asking for feedback. I >> have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. > > Solid list, Bob, and no sign of a grumble in it, Well, I /did/ sneer at bit at some of the reasons. . . . > no limbs lost from razor-edged partitions either, > remarkable accomplishment. > > Personally, I'd go for "all of the above," but > back to the wall would choose reason #9, > good old Reason #9. > > feedbackingly, > > Barry Thanks, Barry--but now you've gone and made me realize I left out "to annoy the Philistines. . . ." That /is/ a motivation for some--not me, I swear--but I'd actually put it in with desire for the approval of others, for the disapproval of certain others is a kind of approval. Thanks for the feedback. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/24abf7d0/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 14:38:26 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 11:48:46 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><4A918441.9090308@nu t-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A918CA2.2080502@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > #9: see TS Eliot, "poetry is a superior form of entertainment." Or > some such. > > Mark To be Hal for a moment: it was Keats who said that, wasn't it? I have no problem with the word, "entertainment." That which gives one (if one is male) pleasure is what finally counts, whatever you call the source. --Bob From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Aug 23 14:14:27 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun Aug 23 12:24:52 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write poetry -- they bla bla bla. An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." Judy Prince wrote: > Mark, > > This is a serious issue, in my opinion. > > When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not > feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not > "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue for > young females who need to identify with females, who need female role > models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not > females---not themselves. > > Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, > guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, > dealing, among other situations, with the universal "he". These > guidelines have been used effectively up to the present time. Bob's > using "he" for both genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago > [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. I'm surprised I'm the > only one who noticed. > > When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well > as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. Until > then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. > > Best, > > Judy > > 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > > > > > Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite > appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in > informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to > give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered > injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about > this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage > somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 14:19:45 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 12:30:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a cone or a dish? At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. > >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." > > > >Judy Prince wrote: >>Mark, >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >> >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue >>for young females who need to identify with females, who need >>female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. >> >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >> >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. >> >>Best, >> >>Judy >> >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > >> >> >> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 15:25:57 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 12:36:47 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><4A918843.9070502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A9197C5.1040005@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > And it's my duty to point this out at least as much as it's your duty > to throw rocks at every mainstream poem posted here, no? > > c I asked for responses, Chris. You're an empiricist, I'm not. Fine. But, again, I have to correct your description of what I do. I truly doubt that I respond to most of the many mainstream poems posted here. When I do respond to one, I do not always throw rocks. I have even been quite eloquent, I think, on behalf of some, like Housman's cherry tree poem. I might add that I throw rocks at visual poems, too, though probably haven't done so here much. In my recent /Small Press Review/ column about the visual poems that got into Geof Huth's /Poetry/ gallery, I knocked several of the poems, for instance. As I keep saying, I'm /not/ against mainstream poetry, I'm against its being considered the /only/ kind of worthwhile poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/8a87d080/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 14:54:18 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun Aug 23 13:04:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A918CA2.2080502@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <4A918CA2.2080502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Your moment of being Hal is over, Bob. Now you're wondering how you found yourself dumped somewhere along the New Jersey Turnpike. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Mark Weiss wrote: > >> #9: see TS Eliot, "poetry is a superior form of entertainment." Or some >> such. >> >> Mark >> > To be Hal for a moment: it was Keats who said that, wasn't it? > > I have no problem with the word, "entertainment." That which gives one (if > one is male) pleasure is what finally counts, whatever you call the source. > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/73a45005/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 15:01:05 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun Aug 23 13:11:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always seems to me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 1:14 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time teaching > Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell the student to use > a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally suggest "they" -- the principal > reasons why people start to write poetry -- they bla bla bla. > > An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, but I > don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." > > > > Judy Prince wrote: > >> Mark, >> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not feel >> as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not "woman". I feel >> excluded. This is an even more important issue for young females who need >> to identify with females, who need female role models. If they read "he", >> they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. >> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, >> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, dealing, >> among other situations, with the universal "he". These guidelines have been >> used effectively up to the present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders >> reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to >> update it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >> >> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well as >> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. Until then, I >> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > junction@earthlink.net>> >> >> >> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/f77ccc41/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 15:21:50 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 13:32:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all solutions that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they call attention to themselves as conscious choices and away from the subject at hand--they interfere with communication. The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good alternative. Yet another problem to live with. I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an indefinite pronoun is expressing sexual bias. Slapping the hand of anyone who does so seems rather schoolmarmish (regardless of the gender of the schoolmarm) and at least as expressive of the puritanism of English language (and especially American) cultures as of serious attempts at linguistic reform. My guess is that the language will do what it will--some form of consensus will be arrived at. At which point whoever's still reading will have to decide whether to react viscerally to the practices of the past as if all of time were contemporary. By then the glaciers will probably have melted and a lot of people will be clinging to the same raft. Mark >Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always seems to >me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. > >Hal From halvard at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 15:31:31 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun Aug 23 13:41:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: Like I wasn't serious? Plurals do the job. Plus they take plural pronouns, like "they." Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all solutions > that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they call attention to > themselves as conscious choices and away from the subject at hand--they > interfere with communication. > > The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good alternative. Yet > another problem to live with. > > I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an indefinite > pronoun is expressing sexual bias. Slapping the hand of anyone who does so > seems rather schoolmarmish (regardless of the gender of the schoolmarm) and > at least as expressive of the puritanism of English language (and especially > American) cultures as of serious attempts at linguistic reform. > > My guess is that the language will do what it will--some form of consensus > will be arrived at. At which point whoever's still reading will have to > decide whether to react viscerally to the practices of the past as if all of > time were contemporary. By then the glaciers will probably have melted and a > lot of people will be clinging to the same raft. > > Mark > > > > Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always seems to >> me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. >> >> Hal >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/b43f8df8/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 15:58:11 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Aug 23 14:08:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Book Deal Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908231258y74645e16t7f1baf0e9e5722fb@mail.gmail.com> An Inside View of Publishing http://www.alanrinzler.com/blog/2009/08/15/proposal-critiques-3-novels-a-biography-a-childrens-book-and-an-academic-treatise/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/abdaf3a2/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 16:02:45 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Aug 23 14:13:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] and yes Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908231302o1fce6afelf0334ac0105f60d9@mail.gmail.com> watch the trailer for *New Confections of a Closet Master Baker* by Gesine Bullock-Prado (Broadway Books/Random House Sept. 09) http://www.alanrinzler.com/blog/2009/08/08/why-a-video-will-help-sell-your-book/ cuisine poetry for gourmands :-) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/20434607/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 17:10:58 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 15:21:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: If a writer were to say thus and so, they would mean thus and so. I was referring to my own transient fugitive seriousness, natch. At 03:31 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Like I wasn't serious? Plurals do the job. Plus they take plural pronouns, >like "they." > >Hal > >"The days are wonderful and the nights >are wonderful and the life is pleasant." > --Gertrude Stein > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard@gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > >On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction@earthlink.net> wrote: >To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all >solutions that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they >call attention to themselves as conscious choices and away from the >subject at hand--they interfere with communication. > >The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good >alternative. Yet another problem to live with. > >I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an >indefinite pronoun is expressing sexual bias. Slapping the hand of >anyone who does so seems rather schoolmarmish (regardless of the >gender of the schoolmarm) and at least as expressive of the >puritanism of English language (and especially American) cultures as >of serious attempts at linguistic reform. > >My guess is that the language will do what it will--some form of >consensus will be arrived at. At which point whoever's still reading >will have to decide whether to react viscerally to the practices of >the past as if all of time were contemporary. By then the glaciers >will probably have melted and a lot of people will be clinging to >the same raft. > >Mark > > > >Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always seems to >me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. > >Hal > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 18:13:38 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 15:25:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A91BF12.2030204@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all > solutions that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they > call attention to themselves as conscious choices and away from the > subject at hand--they interfere with communication. > > The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good > alternative. Yet another problem to live with. > > I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an > indefinite pronoun is expressing sexual bias. I try to avoid the generic he, sometimes with "you"--e.g., instead saying of "if a poet really wants to understand poetry, he will read Grumman," I'll say, "if you're a poet who really wants to understand Grumman, you will read poetry . . ." (Intentional "error.") But I am bothered by what the feminists have done to the generic he, so every once in a while I use it to show my opposition, not to women (in my view) but to feminists. While I'm being politically incorrect, let me add that I once averred that it was an insult to women to claim that they could be discouraged from becoming poets or whatever because the generic he had convinced them they were barred from doing so. I've been doing things all my life that I was told I wouldn't be able to do. Make that "trying to do things I was told I wouldn't be able to do." Sorry, as I've said before, I'm a pop-off artist. Can't resist saying the wrong thing. I think because the right thing is too dominant. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 19:11:11 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 16:22:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A9189CF.5070608@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A9189CF.5070608@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > Barry Spacks wrote: >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bob wrote: >> >>> always asking for feedback. I >>> have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. >> >> Solid list, Bob, and no sign of a grumble in it, > Well, I /did/ sneer at bit at some of the reasons. . . . Good grief, Barry, you were right. Now having carefully read my words, I see that I did /not/ grumble or sneer. I'm so used to Bad Bob, I got him wrong this once. But I also saw I used the generic he. I think I wanted my focus to be on the lone poet, and I refuse to use "they" as singular, or "he/she." --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/6c474196/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 18:39:28 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 16:49:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the male pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are ignorant of this fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally try to switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such intellectually lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such a petty non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to argue about it if they want to. More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived sexisms, is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has left off the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written poetry in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done that, but i did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely possible. More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage with the English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find those areas where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars that have grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological linguistic principles and organic language processing. On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue > even to the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal > pronoun in Jane Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? > > In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." > Very little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? > > It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to > others. God knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should > ever question them. > > I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual > changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two > publishers recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," > because, according to said manual, the s is English and we don't do > that here. Somebody must actually think that's true. Me, I use each > promiscuously--sometimes I need a sibilant at the end, sometimes > not, so I told both publishers to can it, they were messing with the > tools of my trade. Are there any genderless alternatives that don't > limit the range of possibility? > > Mark > > At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> Mark,? >> >> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >> >> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >> feel as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not >> "woman". ? I feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue >> for young females who need to identify with females, who need >> female role models. ? If they read "he", they will 'see' males in >> the contexts, not females---not themselves. ? >> >> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >> after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >> examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal "he". >> ? These guidelines have been used effectively up to the present >> time. ? Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it were >> written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. >> ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >> >> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >> well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? >> Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all >> females. ? >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net >> > >> >> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about this. >> I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 18:42:07 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Aug 23 16:52:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Giovenale Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> *?* Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae *? * logically not referring to the present list -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/883d86c3/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 19:10:07 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 17:20:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Giovenale In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com > References: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Because few on the list can read latin. In the old days the dirty stuff was often written in latin. Used to bother the hell out of me. At 06:42 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > >logically not referring to the present list > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 20:11:37 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 17:23:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> Message-ID: <4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net> Jason Quackenbush wrote: > seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in > English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the > male pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are > ignorant of this fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice > I generally try to switch between he and she by case in order to not > allow such intellectually lazy people to be distracted from what I'm > actually saying by such a petty non-issue. I think of it as compromis > aux mesqin and leave people to argue about it if they want to. > > More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived > sexisms, is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry > has left off the fact that many many men throughout the generations > have written poetry in order to get laid. I don't know that any women > have ever done that, but i did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i > assume it's entirely possible. > > More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage with > the English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find > those areas where things are difficult or even impossible to say and > to show the reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists > grammars that have grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about > universal biological linguistic principles and organic language > processing. Should be "more important." Hey, Jason, I was surprised with what I take as your agreement with me on the generic he. But you spoiled it by adding your scorn for "universal linguistic principles and organic language processing." I'm not sure how close my beliefs on this are to Chomsky's but I believe in innate grammar. As for organic language processing, what else could it be? Words come in through organs and go into the brain, another organ. Etc. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 20:25:19 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 17:39:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Giovenale In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A91DDEF.4060604@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > *?* Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae *? > > * > logically not referring to the present list Ha. As soon as I saw "Stulta," I knew you were referring to me! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/c3f18c8a/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Aug 23 19:35:04 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 23 17:45:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91BF12.2030204@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91BF12.2030204@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CBF26179CEB870-148C-31D@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> I can tell you?that for me it was one book... James Wright's _The Branch Will Not Break_. I was business major looking for a easy elective 'A' and I impetuously signed up for "Intro to Poetry Writing" Well that was all s/he wrote. Prior to being introduced to this book by a teacher named Howard Schwartz (a good poet and anthologist of Jewish lit), I thought poetry was an art that had?died out in Victorian times. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/c3ef2b90/attachment.html From jforjames at aol.com Sun Aug 23 19:43:43 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 23 17:54:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> I? try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if the sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out things into genderless language?` We can be thankful that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I can think of a few others that are maybe more important.? ? I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference.? ? Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a cone or a dish?? ? At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote:? >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla.? >? >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me."? >? >? >? >Judy Prince wrote:? >>Mark,? >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion.? >>? >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue >>for young females who need to identify with females, who need >>female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves.? >>? >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed.? >>? >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females.? >>? >>Best,? >>? >>Judy? >>? >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss >? >>? >> ? >>? >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite? >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in? >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to? >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered? >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about? >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage? >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true.? >>? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------? >>? >>_______________________________________________? >>New-Poetry mailing list? >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? >>? >? >--? >Tad Richards? >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!? >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner? >? >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/? >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/? >? >_______________________________________________? >New-Poetry mailing list? >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/1398cae3/attachment-0001.html From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 19:50:13 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 18:00:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <5782139B-5599-4079-97DC-3CFBE6B1B7E9@myuw.net> I believe in innate meta-grammar, but it's clear i think from the many things that we are able to extract meaning from that grammar itself is rather arbitrary and the attempt to develop schema in order to model human language processing as something computational and algorithmic is fundamentally flawed in it's basic assumptions. I mean, clearly language processing is organic, what i object to is the notion which is still very popular among linguists who work with abstract syntax that there is a language module in the brain that parses natural language into meaning in much the way that a digital computer handles differences in voltage. That, to my way of thinking, is a huge leap of logic supported by very little evidence and counterindicated by the fact that humans are demonstrably capable of all sorts of meaningful exchanges that computers have demonstrated absolutely no aptitude for at all. On Aug 23, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Jason Quackenbush wrote: >> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun >> in English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for >> the male pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are >> ignorant of this fact and the confusion bothers them that in >> practice I generally try to switch between he and she by case in >> order to not allow such intellectually lazy people to be distracted >> from what I'm actually saying by such a petty non-issue. I think of >> it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to argue about it if >> they want to. >> >> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >> sexisms, is the fact that the original list of reasons to write >> poetry has left off the fact that many many men throughout the >> generations have written poetry in order to get laid. I don't know >> that any women have ever done that, but i did get asked out in >> sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely possible. >> >> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage >> with the English Language in the most direct way possible to try to >> find those areas where things are difficult or even impossible to >> say and to show the reductive lie of even the most expansive of >> linguists grammars that have grown out of all this chomskyan >> nonsense about universal biological linguistic principles and >> organic language processing. > Should be "more important." > > Hey, Jason, I was surprised with what I take as your agreement with > me on the generic he. But you spoiled it by adding your scorn for > "universal linguistic principles and organic language processing." > I'm not sure how close my beliefs on this are to Chomsky's but I > believe in innate grammar. As for organic language processing, what > else could it be? Words come in through organs and go into the > brain, another organ. Etc. > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 20:26:36 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 18:37:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir gendered languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we make do without gender. At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if the >sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. >I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm >likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. > >How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out things >into genderless language?` We can be thankful >that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry > >One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I >can think of a few others that are maybe more important. > >I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is >often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear >todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. > >Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a >cone or a dish? > >At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: > >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the > time >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would > tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd > normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start > to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. > > > >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies > here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." > > > > > > > >Judy Prince wrote: > >>Mark, > >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. > >> > >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do > not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read > "man"----not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more > important issue >>for young females who need to identify with > females, who need >>female role models. If they read "he", they > will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. > >> > >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s > and >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty > of >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the > universal >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to > the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if > it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to > update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. > >> > >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them > as >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a > gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to > represent me and all females. > >> > >>Best, > >> > >>Judy > >> > >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > <junction@earthlink.net > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite > >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in > >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to > >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered > >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about > >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage > >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>New-Poetry mailing list > >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > >-- > >Tad Richards > >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >http:// > www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Sun Aug 23 20:33:54 2009 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 23 18:44:26 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBF269B1B8B670-148C-3F5@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Of course they do. But given that languages are arbitrary and capricious systems, how do you think that some things of world got denominated male and other female. Did it inhere to the thing or was it?the cast?of?the thing as perceived by?the first speaker? It's a philosophical question. No need to answer. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir gendered languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we make do without gender.? ? At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote:? >I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if the >sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me.? >I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm >likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly.? >? >How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out things >into genderless language?` We can be thankful? >that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such.? >Finnegan? >? >? >-----Original Message-----? >From: Mark Weiss ? >Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm? >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry? >? >One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I >can think of a few others that are maybe more important.? >? >I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is >often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear >todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference.? >? >Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a >cone or a dish?? >? >At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote:? > >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the > time >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would > tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd > normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start > to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla.? > >? > >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies > here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me."? > >? > >? > >? > >Judy Prince wrote:? > >>Mark,? > >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion.? > >>? > >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do > not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read > "man"----not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more > important issue >>for young females who need to identify with > females, who need >>female role models. If they read "he", they > will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves.? > >>? > >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s > and >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty > of >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the > universal >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to > the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if > it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to > update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed.? > >>? > >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them > as >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a > gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to > represent me and all females.? > >>? > >>Best,? > >>? > >>Judy? > >>? > >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > <junction@earthlink.net > >? > >>? > >> ? > >>? > >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite? > >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in? > >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to? > >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered? > >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about? > >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage? > >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true.? > >>? > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------? > >>? > >>_______________________________________________? > >>New-Poetry mailing list? > >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? > >>? > >? > >--? > >Tad Richards? > >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today!? > >http:// > www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner? > >? > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/? > >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/? > >? > >_______________________________________________? > >New-Poetry mailing list? > >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? >? >_______________________________________________? >New-Poetry mailing list? >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? >_______________________________________________? >New-Poetry mailing list? >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? ? _______________________________________________? New-Poetry mailing list? New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/dc9f3a86/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Aug 23 20:44:48 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun Aug 23 18:55:09 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A91E280.9050305@opus40.org> Ice cream is "it," even if you anthropomorphize it: The ice cream was confused. It couldn't decide if it was butter pecan or maple walnut. Mark Weiss wrote: > One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I > can think of a few others that are maybe more important. > > I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not > vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is > often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear > todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. > > Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a > cone or a dish? > > At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >> teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >> the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally suggest >> "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write poetry -- >> they bla bla bla. >> >> An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, >> but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." >> >> >> >> Judy Prince wrote: >>> Mark, >>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>> >>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>> feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not >>> "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue for >>> young females who need to identify with females, who need female >>> role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in the >>> contexts, not females---not themselves. >>> >>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, >>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>> dealing, among other situations, with the universal "he". These >>> guidelines have been used effectively up to the present time. Bob's >>> using "he" for both genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago >>> [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. I'm surprised I'm the >>> only one who noticed. >>> >>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>> well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. >>> Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss >> > >>> >>> >>> >>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >>> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >>> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Aug 23 20:53:00 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:03:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> Normal grammatical expectations, like normal social expectations, change all the time, and these days indiscriminate use of "he" is going to call more attention to itself than avoidance of it, just as "Negro" is going to call more attention to itself than "African-American," although at one time it was standard usage. My guess is that people will still be reading for quite a while yet, and furthermore, that language will still be used even by people who aren't reading. Mark Weiss wrote: > To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all > solutions that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they > call attention to themselves as conscious choices and away from the > subject at hand--they interfere with communication. > > The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good > alternative. Yet another problem to live with. > > I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an > indefinite pronoun is expressing sexual bias. Slapping the hand of > anyone who does so seems rather schoolmarmish (regardless of the > gender of the schoolmarm) and at least as expressive of the puritanism > of English language (and especially American) cultures as of serious > attempts at linguistic reform. > > My guess is that the language will do what it will--some form of > consensus will be arrived at. At which point whoever's still reading > will have to decide whether to react viscerally to the practices of > the past as if all of time were contemporary. By then the glaciers > will probably have melted and a lot of people will be clinging to the > same raft. > > Mark > > >> Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always >> seems to >> me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. >> >> Hal > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Aug 23 20:54:52 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:05:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> The French also wonder how we make do with only one word for "you," but I haven't heard a large outcry in favor of using a second one. Mark Weiss wrote: > > To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir gendered > languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we make do > without gender. > > At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if the >> sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. >> I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm likely >> to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. >> >> How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out things >> into genderless language?` We can be thankful >> that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >> worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Weiss >> Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry >> >> One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I >> can think of a few others that are maybe more important. >> >> I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >> vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is >> often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear >> todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. >> >> Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a >> cone or a dish? >> >> At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >> >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >> >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally >> >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write >> >poetry -- they bla bla bla. >> > >> >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, >> >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." >> > >> > >> > >> >Judy Prince wrote: >> >>Mark, >> >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >> >> >> >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >> >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not >> >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue >> >>for young females who need to identify with females, who need >> >>female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in >> >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. >> >> >> >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >> >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >> >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >> >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >> >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >> >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update >> >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >> >> >> >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >> >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>world. >> Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. >> >> >> >>Best, >> >> >> >>Judy >> >> >> >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss >> <junction@earthlink.net >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >> >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >> >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >> >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >> >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >> >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >> >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>New-Poetry mailing list >> >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > >> >-- >> >Tad Richards >> >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> >http:// >> www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> > >> >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Aug 23 21:06:31 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:16:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91E280.9050305@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E280.9050305@opus40.org> Message-ID: <415975.49688.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Maybe that's the answer: use "it" as the singular pronoun for everything. Those hes and shes who don't like the indefinite pronoun "he" can't complain about "it" not being proper grammer since s/he doesn't seem to mind screwing with grammar and vocabulary so that they can squeeze out "he." Let's just squeeze all those sexist gender-specific pronouns out. Let's see how an old Cummings poem looks with the new, better, more fairer, and less biasy pronoun: may i feel said it (i'll squeal said it just once said it) it's fun said it (may i touch said it how much said it a lot said it) why not said it... And look: It still rhymes! JohnJ ________________________________ From: TheOldMole To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:44:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry Ice cream is "it," even if you anthropomorphize it: The ice cream was confused. It couldn't decide if it was butter pecan or maple walnut. Mark Weiss wrote: > One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. > > I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. > > Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a cone or a dish? > > At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write poetry -- they bla bla bla. >> >> An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." >> >> >> >> Judy Prince wrote: >>> Mark, >>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>> >>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue for young females who need to identify with females, who need female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. >>> >>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal "he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>> >>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > >>> >>> >>> >>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >>> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >>> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/3e0c814e/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 20:59:15 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:19:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> Message-ID: <333992D9-612E-4919-8DEC-45E63A9857B5@myuw.net> we do have other words for "you" 'y'all" "you all" "all y'all" "thou" "thee" "everyone" "people" "folks" "yourself" "class" etc etc etc In fact I've often thought that the mere six to eight that the French have is woefully inadequate. On Aug 23, 2009, at 5:54 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > The French also wonder how we make do with only one word for "you," > but I haven't heard a large outcry in favor of using a second one. > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir >> gendered languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we >> make do without gender. >> >> At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if >>> the sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. >>> I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm >>> likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. >>> >>> How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out >>> things into genderless language?` We can be thankful >>> that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >>> worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. >>> Finnegan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark Weiss >>> Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry >>> >>> One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but >>> I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. >>> >>> I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >>> vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage >>> is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may >>> appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. >>> >>> Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in >>> a cone or a dish? >>> >>> At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >>> >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would >>> tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd >>> normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start >>> to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. >>> > >>> >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies >>> here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means >>> "me." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>Mark, >>> >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>> >> >>> >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>> not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"---- >>> not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important >>> issue >>for young females who need to identify with females, who >>> need >>female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' >>> males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. >>> >> >>> >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>> >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>> >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >>> >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >>> >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >>> >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to >>> update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>> >> >>> >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>> >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>> >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and >>> all females. >>> >> >>> >>Best, >>> >> >>> >>Judy >>> >> >>> >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>> >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >>> >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>> >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>> >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered >>> usage >>> >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>New-Poetry mailing list >>> >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Tad Richards >>> >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> >>> Examiner>http:// www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> > >>> >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 21:08:38 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:20:02 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <415975.49688.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E280.9050305@opus40.org> <415975.49688.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i know you're being facetious, but i think the poem is better that way, honestly. On Aug 23, 2009, at 6:06 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Maybe that's the answer: use "it" as the singular pronoun for > everything. Those hes and shes who don't like the indefinite > pronoun "he" can't complain about "it" not being proper grammer > since s/he doesn't seem to mind screwing with grammar and vocabulary > so that they can squeeze out "he." Let's just squeeze all those > sexist gender-specific pronouns out. > > Let's see how an old Cummings poem looks with the new, better, more > fairer, and less biasy pronoun: > > may i feel said it > (i'll squeal said it > just once said it) > it's fun said it > > (may i touch said it > how much said it > a lot said it) > why not said it... > > And look: It still rhymes! > > JohnJ > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: TheOldMole > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:44:48 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry > > Ice cream is "it," even if you anthropomorphize it: > > The ice cream was confused. It couldn't decide if it was butter > pecan or maple walnut. > > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but >> I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. >> >> I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >> vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage >> is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear >> todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. >> >> Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a >> cone or a dish? >> >> At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >>> teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >>> the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally >>> suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write >>> poetry -- they bla bla bla. >>> >>> An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies >>> here, but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means >>> "me." >>> >>> >>> >>> Judy Prince wrote: >>>> Mark, >>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>>> >>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>>> not feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"---- >>>> not "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important >>>> issue for young females who need to identify with females, who >>>> need female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' >>>> males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. >>>> >>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>>> after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>>> examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >>>> "he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >>>> present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >>>> were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to >>>> update it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>>> >>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>>> well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>>> world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and >>>> all females. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Judy >>>> >>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss >>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>>> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me >>>> to >>>> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>>> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>>> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered >>>> usage >>>> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 21:10:13 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:20:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> Message-ID: <538D9E88-EAD7-4CBF-A6D3-A588D025C557@myuw.net> we do have other words for "you" 'y'all" "you all" "all y'all" "thou" "thee" "everyone" "people" "folks" "yourself" "class" etc etc etc In fact I've often thought that the mere six to eight that the French have is woefully inadequate. On Aug 23, 2009, at 5:54 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > The French also wonder how we make do with only one word for "you," > but I haven't heard a large outcry in favor of using a second one. > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir >> gendered languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we >> make do without gender. >> >> At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if >>> the sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. >>> I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm >>> likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. >>> >>> How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out >>> things into genderless language?` We can be thankful >>> that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >>> worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. >>> Finnegan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark Weiss >>> Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry >>> >>> One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but >>> I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. >>> >>> I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >>> vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage >>> is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may >>> appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. >>> >>> Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in >>> a cone or a dish? >>> >>> At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >>> >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would >>> tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd >>> normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start >>> to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. >>> > >>> >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies >>> here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means >>> "me." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>Mark, >>> >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>> >> >>> >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>> not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"---- >>> not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important >>> issue >>for young females who need to identify with females, who >>> need >>female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' >>> males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. >>> >> >>> >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>> >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>> >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal >>> >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the >>> >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it >>> >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to >>> update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>> >> >>> >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>> >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>> >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and >>> all females. >>> >> >>> >>Best, >>> >> >>> >>Judy >>> >> >>> >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss <junction@earthlink.net >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>> >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >>> >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>> >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>> >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered >>> usage >>> >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>New-Poetry mailing list >>> >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Tad Richards >>> >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> >>> Examiner>http:// www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> > >>> >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 22:23:50 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:35:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CBF26179CEB870-148C-31D@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91BF12.203 0204@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF26179CEB870-148C-31D@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4A91F9B6.2020808@nut-n-but.net> jforjames@aol.com wrote: > I can tell you that for me it was one book... > James Wright's _The Branch Will Not Break_. > I was business major looking for a easy elective 'A' > and I impetuously signed up for "Intro to Poetry Writing" > Well that was all s/he wrote. I can see that the book would have made you fall for poetry, but what made you write it? Did you think poems could be beautiful or whatever and want to make them? For their sake? And/or to give pleasure to others? Listen, Jim, you gotta be more explicit or how are we gonna know how to stop others like you before it's too late? With me (as with just about everybody, I'm sure) it's was for most of the reasons, at first. I found it challenging to try to make a poem (and my first were all very formal--sonnets, mainly), but also I wanted to please myself by making beautiful sounds, interesting connections of words, etc. Horrible as it is for me to admit it, I also wanted the money and fame I thought a poet at the level I would surely attain would get (I was 19 when I became, for a while, a Serious Poet). I was more self-centered then than I am now (I know, if it's possible), so I wasn't moved too much to give others pleasure, but I did hope for the admiration of my literary friends. I had very little desire to Right the World. Nor much for expressing my feelings--though, of course, that's unavoidable. I mean, I didn't have either a message I /had/ to convey to the world, or any set of feelings I had to find words for. Most of all this still applies except that I truly hope much more than I did that there will be some people who get from my poetry what I got my the poetry of those of my predecessors I admire. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/93d3646f/attachment.html From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Aug 23 21:30:29 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:40:49 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Bob, it's a nice list, though I think you should rate the reasons in order of occurrence. Here's how I'd rate them: 1 - 1. Has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that h wants to repeat h enjoyment with poems of h own. 2 - 9. Experience creative pleasure. 3 - 6. Capture some precious moment in words. 4 - 8. The Hillary Motivation--sees poetry as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. 5 - 4. Wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher. 6 - 3. Has something to say to which h believes only h can do justice--that is, h has a need for self-expression. 7 - 2. Wants to provide others with poetry h thinks they'll enjoy--and therefore give hself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. 8 - 7. Wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously or unconsciously) h notion of the past so it feels better. 9 - 5. Wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with accomplish this. I think number 1 is 1 because I believe that's the reason why many first wrote (or verbally composed) a poem--imitating mother goose or Dr. Seuss. (Unless you're only talking about real, honest-ta-goodness, change-the-world, "I a poet"-type poems.) I move 6 up so high (to 3rd) simply because that's the reason for most of the closet poets I know--and that's a huge number. And where is writing a poem only to get Carol Sacknoff to fall in love you? Why's is that not on the list? JohnJ ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 10:38:07 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry Nearly twenty years ago I made the following list of reasons people compose poetry for my book, Of Manywhere-at-Once. I've since posted it on the Internet, at least once, here, always asking for feedback. I have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. I would think someone must has thought of some reason for making poetry I missed, or violently disagree with one of the reasons I advance. Anyway, here it is again. . . . so much guff is extant about why anyone might decide to write (solitextual)poetry, I think it would be helpful to add a few of my explanations, biased and hit&miss as they no doubt are: 1. He has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that he wants to repeat his enjoyment with poems of his own. 2. He wants to provide others with poetry he thinks they'll enjoy--and therefore give himself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. (Herein, I might add, lies the value of Posterity--or those wonderful people to whom even the most obscure poet can imagine himself being as other once-obscure poets like Keats and Blake have been to him. Yes, there's a little autobiography there.) 3. He has something to say to which he believes only he can do justice--that is, he has a need for self-expression. This need might be simply to share his love of tall ships with others, for example, or it might be to try to convert them to some religion or political theory. The point is, what counts is saying rather than making something. 4. He wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher who persuades him (directly--or merely by applauding someone else's poem) to try to write a poem. If he is naive enough, he might also dream that by writing a terrific poem, he might gain such larger forms of social approval as fame and love as well. 5. He wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a poem with accomplish this. 6. He wants to capture some precious moment in words. 7. He wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render (consciously or unconsciously) his notion of the past so it feels better. I think this an inferior reason for art, and not mine, but it is probably a motive, some small motive, behind some art. 8. There is also what I call the Hillary Motivation--a person sees poetry as a challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. He wants to prove he can conquer it, or to find out if he can conquer it--as well as experience what conquering it, or trying to conquer it, is like. 9. He wants to experience creative pleasure. This does not consist of what one experiences, pleasurably, from the content of his work. It is also outside approval, competiveness, and the like. It is simply the pleasure of effectively putting something together--in this case, a poem; in others, a house, say, or a model airplane. Making, not saying. As Gulley Jimson, the painter-protagonist of Joyce Carey's novel, The Horse's Mouth, most wonderfully puts it: "Certainly an artist has no right to complain of his fate. For he has great pleasures. To start new pictures. Even the worst artist that ever was, even a one-eyed mental deficient with the shakes in both hands who sets out to paint the chicken-house, can enjoy the first stroke. Can think, By God, look what I've done. A miracle. I have transformed a chunk of wood, canvas, etc., into a spiritual fact, an eternal beauty. I am God. Yes, the beginning, the first stroke on a picture, must be one of the greatest pleasures open to mankind." This kind of joy (not only in first strokes, but middle and final strokes) is by far what I most seek when I write poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/80175508/attachment-0001.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 22:39:06 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:49:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <5782139B-5599-4079-97DC-3CFBE6B1B7E9@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net><4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net> <5782139B-5599-4079-97DC-3CFBE6B1B7E9@myuw.net> Message-ID: <4A91FD4A.90600@nut-n-but.net> Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I believe in innate meta-grammar, but it's clear i think from the many > things that we are able to extract meaning from that grammar itself is > rather arbitrary and the attempt to develop schema in order to model > human language processing as something computational and algorithmic > is fundamentally flawed in it's basic assumptions. I mean, clearly > language processing is organic, what i object to is the notion which > is still very popular among linguists who work with abstract syntax > that there is a language module in the brain that parses natural > language into meaning in much the way that a digital computer handles > differences in voltage. That, to my way of thinking, is a huge leap of > logic supported by very little evidence and counterindicated by the > fact that humans are demonstrably capable of all sorts of meaningful > exchanges that computers have demonstrated absolutely no aptitude for > at all. Present-day computers, sure. I have to admit, I don't know much about what any linguists are or have been up to, but I do theorize that the brain acts like a computer, just a much more complex one than the one I'm using right now. Not binary, for instance--at least the way computers are. Can't say more about it here--too complicated, and I haven't got it /all/ worked out--just enough to know I'M RIGHT. My internal over-seer says that we can't say anything either way until much much more is known for sure about the physiology of the brain, known the way we know how the lower nervous system works. In detail. Via much better equipment than MRI scanners, and without the use of statistics. Which reminds me that one of my halted projects is a study of Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 in which I present my theory of reading. Maybe I'll get going with that again. . . . --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/6f25754d/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 23 22:48:44 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun Aug 23 19:59:00 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.co m><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A91FF8C.1000402@nut-n-but.net> John Jeffrey wrote: > Bob, it's a nice list, though I think you should rate the reasons in > order of occurrence. Here's how I'd rate them: > > 1 - 1. Has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that h wants to > repeat h enjoyment with poems of h own. > 2 - 9. Experience creative pleasure. > 3 - 6. Capture some precious moment in words. > 4 - 8. The Hillary Motivation--sees poetry as a challenge worth > meeting simply because it's there. > 5 - 4. Wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of > some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher. > 6 - 3. Has something to say to which h believes only h can do > justice--that is, h has a need for self-expression. > 7 - 2. Wants to provide others with poetry h thinks they'll enjoy--and > therefore give hself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. > 8 - 7. Wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render > (consciously or unconsciously) h notion of the past so it feels better. > 9 - 5. Wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a > poem with accomplish this. > > I think number 1 is 1 because I believe that's the reason why many > first wrote (or verbally composed) a poem--imitating mother goose or > Dr. Seuss. (Unless you're only talking about real, > honest-ta-goodness, change-the-world, "I a poet"-type poems.) > > I move 6 up so high (to 3rd) simply because that's the reason for most > of the closet poets I know--and that's a huge number. > > And where is writing a poem only to get Carol Sacknoff to fall in love > you? Why's is that not on the list? > > JohnJ Your list makes sense to me, John, though I'd tweak it--not just now, I'm too close to bedtime. As for capturing Carol Sacknoff (oddly, mine was a Carol, too), that'd come under number four, winning approval. Or maybe it should be a stand-alone reason. I'll have to think about it. Hmmm, it might go under number five, which should be thinks poetry can be traded for something of value. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090823/c96bbec0/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Sun Aug 23 21:53:58 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sun Aug 23 20:04:23 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91FD4A.90600@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net><4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net> <5782139B-5599-4079-97DC-3CFBE6B1B7E9@myuw.net> <4A91FD4A.90600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <78583934-B223-4167-A59D-74315185FC8B@myuw.net> You should read Hubert Dreyfuss's book "what computers can't do" for a very interesting discussion about why human intelligence isn't computation, or at least isn't JUST computation. It converted me away from a belief in Strong AI. And I am looking forward to your study on Shakespeare. You're working on all the Sonnets as a part of that project right? On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Jason Quackenbush wrote: >> I believe in innate meta-grammar, but it's clear i think from the >> many things that we are able to extract meaning from that grammar >> itself is rather arbitrary and the attempt to develop schema in >> order to model human language processing as something computational >> and algorithmic is fundamentally flawed in it's basic assumptions. >> I mean, clearly language processing is organic, what i object to is >> the notion which is still very popular among linguists who work >> with abstract syntax that there is a language module in the brain >> that parses natural language into meaning in much the way that a >> digital computer handles differences in voltage. That, to my way of >> thinking, is a huge leap of logic supported by very little evidence >> and counterindicated by the fact that humans are demonstrably >> capable of all sorts of meaningful exchanges that computers have >> demonstrated absolutely no aptitude for at all. > Present-day computers, sure. I have to admit, I don't know much > about what any linguists are or have been up to, but I do theorize > that the brain acts like a computer, just a much more complex one > than the one I'm using right now. Not binary, for instance--at > least the way computers are. Can't say more about it here--too > complicated, and I haven't got it /all/ worked out--just enough to > know I'M RIGHT. > My internal over-seer says that we can't say anything either way > until much much more is known for sure about the physiology of the > brain, known the way we know how the lower nervous system works. In > detail. Via much better equipment than MRI scanners, and without > the use of statistics. > > Which reminds me that one of my halted projects is a study of > Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 in which I present my theory of reading. > Maybe I'll get going with that again. . . . > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 22:40:30 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 20:51:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> <4A91E4DC.4020506@opus40.org> Message-ID: I kind of liked thou. We used to use it in Brooklyn when I was a boy. In the US south there's you and y'all. At 08:54 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >The French also wonder how we make do with only one word for "you," >but I haven't heard a large outcry in favor of using a second one. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>To my knowledge, Spanish and French speakers rather like teir >>gendered languages, regardless of their politics, and wonder how we >>make do without gender. >> >>At 07:43 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if >>>the sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. >>>I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm >>>likely to leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. >>> >>>How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out >>>things into genderless language?` We can be thankful >>>that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily >>>worked around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. >>>Finnegan >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Mark Weiss >>>Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry >>> >>>One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but >>>I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. >>> >>>I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not >>>vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage >>>is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may >>>appear todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. >>> >>>Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in >>>a cone or a dish? >>> >>>At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the >>> time >teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I >>> would tell >the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd >>> normally >suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people >>> start to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. >>> > >>> >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies >>> here, >but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>Mark, >>> >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. >>> >> >>> >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>> not >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read >>> "man"----not >>"woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more >>> important issue >>for young females who need to identify with >>> females, who need >>female role models. If they read "he", they >>> will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not themselves. >>> >> >>> >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s >>> and >>after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty >>> of >>examples, dealing, among other situations, with the >>> universal >>"he". These guidelines have been used effectively up >>> to the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as >>> if it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot >>> to update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>> >> >>> >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them >>> as >>well as females, then we'll have achieved a >>> gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to >>> represent me and all females. >>> >> >>> >>Best, >>> >> >>> >>Judy >>> >> >>> >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss >>> <junction@earthlink.net >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>> >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to >>> >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered >>> >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about >>> >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage >>> >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. >>> >> >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>New-Poetry mailing list >>> >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Tad Richards >>> >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> >http: >>> // www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> > >>> >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>> >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 22:42:03 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 20:52:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <415975.49688.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E280.9050305@opus40.org> <415975.49688.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Universal objectification! I like it! It' like real life! At 09:06 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Maybe that's the answer: use "it" as the singular pronoun for >everything. Those hes and shes who don't like the indefinite >pronoun "he" can't complain about "it" not being proper grammer >since s/he doesn't seem to mind screwing with grammar and vocabulary >so that they can squeeze out "he." Let's just squeeze all those >sexist gender-specific pronouns out. > >Let's see how an old Cummings poem looks with the new, better, more >fairer, and less biasy pronoun: > > may i feel said it > (i'll squeal said it > just once said it) > it's fun said it > > (may i touch said it > how much said it > a lot said it) > why not said it... > >And look: It still rhymes! > >JohnJ > > > > >From: TheOldMole >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:44:48 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry > >Ice cream is "it," even if you anthropomorphize it: > >The ice cream was confused. It couldn't decide if it was butter >pecan or maple walnut. > > >Mark Weiss wrote: > > One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, > but I can think of a few others that are maybe more important. > > > > I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not > vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage > is often a matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear > todgy, but at least doesn't confuse reference. > > > > Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in > a cone or a dish? > > > > At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: > >> Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time > teaching Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell > the student to use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally > suggest "they" -- the principal reasons why people start to write > poetry -- they bla bla bla. > >> > >> An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies > here, but I don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." > >> > >> > >> > >> Judy Prince wrote: > >>> Mark, > >>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. > >>> > >>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do > not feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not > "woman". I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue > for young females who need to identify with females, who need > female role models. If they read "he", they will 'see' males in > the contexts, not females---not themselves. > >>> > >>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and > after, guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of > examples, dealing, among other situations, with the universal > "he". These guidelines have been used effectively up to the > present time. Bob's using "he" for both genders reads as if it > were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he forgot to update > it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. > >>> > >>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them > as well as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral > world. Until then, I reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Judy > >>> > >>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss > <junction@earthlink.net > > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite > >>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in > >>> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to > >>> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered > >>> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about > >>> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage > >>> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 22:49:08 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 20:59:37 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91FF8C.1000402@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com> <8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.co m> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A91FF8C.1000402@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Mine was a French girl names Evelyn (spelling?), occasion of my only attempt at poetry in French. It went something like "boy, are you pretty!" (Sacr? bleu que tu sois belle!) My grammar was almost as bad as my subtlety. She was charmed, but not utterly. Mark At 10:48 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >John Jeffrey wrote: >>Bob, it's a nice list, though I think you >>should rate the reasons in order of occurrence. Here's how I'd rate them: >> >>1 - 1. Has enjoyed reading others' poetry so >>much that h wants to repeat h enjoyment with poems of h own. >>2 - 9. Experience creative pleasure. >>3 - 6. Capture some precious moment in words. >>4 - 8. The Hillary Motivation--sees poetry as a >>challenge worth meeting simply because it's there. >>5 - 4. Wants approval--most usually, in the >>beginning, the approval of some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher. >>6 - 3. Has something to say to which h believes >>only h can do justice--that is, h has a need for self-expression. >>7 - 2. Wants to provide others with poetry h >>thinks they'll enjoy--and therefore give hself >>the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. >>8 - 7. Wants to solve personal problems--that >>is, to re-render (consciously or unconsciously) >>h notion of the past so it feels better. >>9 - 5. Wants to earn money, and insanely >>believes that composing a poem with accomplish this. >> >>I think number 1 is 1 because I believe that's >>the reason why many first wrote (or verbally >>composed) a poem--imitating mother goose or Dr. >>Seuss. (Unless you're only talking about real, >>honest-ta-goodness, change-the-world, "I a poet"-type poems.) >> >>I move 6 up so high (to 3rd) simply because >>that's the reason for most of the closet poets >>I know--and that's a huge number. >> >>And where is writing a poem only to get Carol >>Sacknoff to fall in love you? Why's is that not on the list? >> >>JohnJ >Your list makes sense to me, John, though I'd >tweak it--not just now, I'm too close to >bedtime. As for capturing Carol Sacknoff >(oddly, mine was a Carol, too), that'd come >under number four, winning approval. Or maybe >it should be a stand-alone reason. I'll have to >think about it. Hmmm, it might go under number >five, which should be thinks poetry can be traded for something of value. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 22:57:08 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Aug 23 21:07:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> Message-ID: Spoken language is different from written language, and replacing one noun with another is different from eliminating a grammatical form. That we're having this discussion at all is evidence of how difficult, and how unsettled, the issue is. As to seriousness, if we all decided on whatever non-gendered solution it wouldn't reduce the number of beatings and rapes or the differences in salaries one iota. At 08:53 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >Normal grammatical expectations, like normal social expectations, >change all the time, and these days indiscriminate use of "he" is >going to call more attention to itself than avoidance of it, just as >"Negro" is going to call more attention to itself than >"African-American," although at one time it was standard usage. > >My guess is that people will still be reading for quite a while yet, >and furthermore, that language will still be used even by people who >aren't reading. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>To be serious for a moment (I can do that!), the problem with all >>solutions that violate normal grammatical expectations is that they >>call attention to themselves as conscious choices and away from the >>subject at hand--they interfere with communication. >> >>The question is how to behave linguistically absent a good >>alternative. Yet another problem to live with. >> >>I wouldn't assume, though, that anyone who uses he/him as an >>indefinite pronoun is expressing sexual bias. Slapping the hand of >>anyone who does so seems rather schoolmarmish (regardless of the >>gender of the schoolmarm) and at least as expressive of the >>puritanism of English language (and especially American) cultures >>as of serious attempts at linguistic reform. >> >>My guess is that the language will do what it will--some form of >>consensus will be arrived at. At which point whoever's still >>reading will have to decide whether to react viscerally to the >>practices of the past as if all of time were contemporary. By then >>the glaciers will probably have melted and a lot of people will be >>clinging to the same raft. >> >>Mark >> >> >>>Right. Using plurals (e.g. writers instead of the writer) always seems to >>>me to be the best way to avoid the pronoun problem. >>> >>>Hal >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sun Aug 23 23:38:58 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun Aug 23 21:49:17 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> Message-ID: No takers for Ze, Zem and Zerz or other pronounonical inventions? c From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 01:53:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 24 00:04:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Giovenale In-Reply-To: <4A91DDEF.4060604@nut-n-but.net> References: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> <4A91DDEF.4060604@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908232253n14989d69m2b49769341beb01a@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations Mark for your Latin, but here is the right translation: Clemency is stupid, in this swarming of poets. to pardon papers sentenced to rot Clemency is stupid (stulta est clementia), in (cum) this swarming (tot ubique - all the where) of poets (vatibus; vate - poet) (occurras - where all the where happen). to pardon papers sentenced to rot (periturare - perishable - to make perishable) (parcere - lo let live, pasture) (chartae - papers) On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > *?* Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae *? > > * > logically not referring to the present list > > Ha. As soon as I saw "Stulta," I knew you were referring to me! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/ec8e5247/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 02:10:04 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 24 00:20:22 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Giovenale In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908232253n14989d69m2b49769341beb01a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d70908231542v64a422abyb3dc8ef039f34d1@mail.gmail.com> <4A91DDEF.4060604@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d70908232253n14989d69m2b49769341beb01a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908232310p7d4f1f33i52753cd6095fa398@mail.gmail.com> Oh for God's sake what I found further down: Call Marcus and tell him that dirty stuff difficult (difficilis) it is to find (reperire) even in Latin and tell Bobbus that stulti are all the others not on this list but (sed) all the others On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Congratulations Mark for your Latin, but here is the right translation: > > Clemency is stupid, > in this swarming of poets. > to pardon papers sentenced to rot > > Clemency is stupid (stulta est clementia), > in (cum) this swarming (tot ubique - all the where) of poets (vatibus; vate > - poet) (occurras - where all the where happen). > to pardon papers sentenced to rot > (periturare - perishable - to make perishable) > (parcere - lo let live, pasture) > (chartae - papers) > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> *?* Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae *? >> >> * >> logically not referring to the present list >> >> Ha. As soon as I saw "Stulta," I knew you were referring to me! >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/7abb1158/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 24 02:36:07 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 24 00:46:26 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A9189CF.5070608@nut-n-but.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> You wanted to focus on the lone poet, Bob? What in the world are you talking about? Quit slithering around with your daily-changing logic, your temporary reasons. It's time for you to be 'transparent', as they now say. Go ahead and join the 21st century of folks who appreciate non-sexist language and have been using it for years. Rewrite your 'lone poet' list; you might learn something about translating and about yourself, not to mention others. If the following does not 'feel' comfortable to you, then it's exactly how I feel when reading your list with male-only pronouns: "The poet composed alone, no drinking buddies, no pub-bore distractions---only the small blank computer page ready for her words." Best, Good Judy 2009/8/23 Bob Grumman > Bob Grumman wrote: > > Barry Spacks wrote: > > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Bob wrote: > > always asking for feedback. I > have not yet gotten any, at all, which amazes me. > > > Solid list, Bob, and no sign of a grumble in it, > > Well, I *did* sneer at bit at some of the reasons. . . . > > > Good grief, Barry, you were right. Now having carefully read my words, I > see that I did *not* grumble or sneer. I'm so used to Bad Bob, I got him > wrong this once. But I also saw I used the generic he. I think I wanted my > focus to be on the lone poet, and I refuse to use "they" as singular, or > "he/she." > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/3b57af40/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 24 02:38:18 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 24 00:48:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? Incredulous Judy 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush > seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in > English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the male > pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are ignorant of this > fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally try to > switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such intellectually > lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such a petty > non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to argue > about it if they want to. > > More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived sexisms, > is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has left off > the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written poetry > in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done that, but i > did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely possible. > > More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage with the > English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find those areas > where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the > reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars that have > grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological > linguistic principles and organic language processing. > > > > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue even to >> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal pronoun in Jane >> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >> >> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." Very >> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >> >> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to others. God >> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever question them. >> >> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual >> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two publishers >> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, according to >> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody must >> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously--sometimes I need a >> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to can it, >> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any genderless >> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >> >> Mark >> >> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >> >>> Mark,? >>> >>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>> >>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not feel >>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not "woman". ? I >>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young females who >>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? If they read >>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not themselves. ? >>> >>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, >>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, dealing, >>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These guidelines have >>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" for both >>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he >>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>> >>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well as >>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? Until then, I >>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>> junction@earthlink.net> >>> >>> >>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in informal >>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give them a rest >>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to disappear >>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is that the >>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I >>> doubt this is true. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/459e34c6/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Mon Aug 24 04:18:42 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Mon Aug 24 02:29:06 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised that you would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an age where they would be participating in a list like this would have been born in that century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, alluding to what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what might be expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take as something of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain ignorance or backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, and frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you aren't in the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am taking the liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at the fact that in the 21st century there are still people who can get worked up about nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a generation that the real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than quibbling over pronouns. the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in the fact that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in english are homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first world bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist society than in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to stand in for the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a placeholder noun in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially instantiated are different words with different meanings indicated by the context in which the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral pronouns. They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got replaced by "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the singular "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several centuries, and the only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are under the mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do with the correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all prescriptive grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less well educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" amounts to much the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received Pronunciation in the UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of African American Vernacular English in "polite" company. Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur slowly, over time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to political ends, even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as doomed to failure as they are ill-conceived. That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to expend energy on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality because you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege and are therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone dares to call a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with you ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my own writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, this to keep both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a problem with the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw attention to themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I imagine it feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine that's the reason that language purists have always attempted to control the freedom of expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect and accent. It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But frankly, I hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line just to avoid having to put up with criticism from people like you. Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm somewhat more willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've said all I have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from me unless you can find a way to be a bit more civil. Irritated Jay On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? > Incredulous Judy > > 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush > >> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun >> in >> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the >> male >> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are ignorant >> of this >> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally >> try to >> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >> intellectually >> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such >> a petty >> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people >> to argue >> about it if they want to. >> >> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >> sexisms, >> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has >> left off >> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written >> poetry >> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done >> that, but i >> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >> possible. >> >> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage >> with the >> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find >> those areas >> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the >> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars that >> have >> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological >> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue >> even to >>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal >>> pronoun in Jane >>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>> >>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on >>> faut." Very >>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>> >>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to >>> others. God >>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever >>> question them. >>> >>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual >>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two >>> publishers >>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, >>> according to >>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody >>> must >>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously-- >>> sometimes I need a >>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to >>> can it, >>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any >>> genderless >>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>> >>>> Mark,? >>>> >>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>> >>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>>> not feel >>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not >>>> "woman". ? I >>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young >>>> females who >>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? If >>>> they read >>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>> themselves. ? >>>> >>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>>> after, >>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>> dealing, >>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These >>>> guidelines have >>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" >>>> for both >>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, >>>> and he >>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>>> >>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>>> well as >>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? Until >>>> then, I >>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Judy >>>> >>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>> >>>> >>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>>> informal >>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give >>>> them a rest >>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to >>>> disappear >>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is that >>>> the >>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to >>>> inequalities. I >>>> doubt this is true. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 24 04:36:16 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 24 02:46:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Jay, Glad you've explained your view. We disagree. Your business. And mine. If you have [or will have] daughters, I hope you'll see the benefit to them of non-sexist language. I enjoy debate, argumentation, persuasion---and giving/getting a Very Occasional gratuitous slap. You got the slap, and you gave back a loving, lingering wallop of your own. I expected it. I'm recovering. Best, Judy 2009/8/24 Jason Quackenbush > Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised that you > would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an age where > they would be participating in a list like this would have been born in that > century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, alluding to > what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what might be > expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take as something > of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain ignorance or > backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, and > frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you aren't in > the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am taking the > liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. > > To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at the fact > that in the 21st century there are still people who can get worked up about > nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a generation that the > real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than quibbling > over pronouns. > > the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in the fact > that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in english are > homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first world > bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist society than > in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to stand in for > the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a placeholder noun > in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially instantiated are > different words with different meanings indicated by the context in which > the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral pronouns. > They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got replaced by > "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the singular > "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several centuries, and the > only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are under the > mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do with the > correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all prescriptive > grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to > delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less well > educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" amounts to much > the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received Pronunciation in the > UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of African > American Vernacular English in "polite" company. > > Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur slowly, over > time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to political ends, > even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as doomed to > failure as they are ill-conceived. > > That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to expend energy > on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality because > you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege and are > therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone dares to call > a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with you > ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my own > writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, this to keep > both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a problem with > the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw attention to > themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I imagine it > feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine that's the > reason that language purists have always attempted to control the freedom of > expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect and accent. > It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But frankly, I > hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line just to avoid > having to put up with criticism from people like you. > > Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm somewhat more > willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've said all I > have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from me unless > you can find a way to be a bit more civil. > > Irritated Jay > > > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > > Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? >> Incredulous Judy >> >> 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >> >> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in >>> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the male >>> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are ignorant of >>> this >>> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally try to >>> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >>> intellectually >>> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such a >>> petty >>> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to >>> argue >>> about it if they want to. >>> >>> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >>> sexisms, >>> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has left >>> off >>> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written >>> poetry >>> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done that, >>> but i >>> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >>> possible. >>> >>> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage with the >>> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find those >>> areas >>> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the >>> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars that have >>> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological >>> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue even to >>> >>>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal pronoun in >>>> Jane >>>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>>> >>>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." >>>> Very >>>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>>> >>>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to others. >>>> God >>>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever question >>>> them. >>>> >>>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual >>>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two >>>> publishers >>>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, according to >>>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody must >>>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously--sometimes I >>>> need a >>>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to can it, >>>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any genderless >>>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Mark,? >>>>> >>>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>>> >>>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>>>> feel >>>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not "woman". ? >>>>> I >>>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young females >>>>> who >>>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? If they >>>>> read >>>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>>> themselves. ? >>>>> >>>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, >>>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>>> dealing, >>>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These guidelines >>>>> have >>>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" for >>>>> both >>>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and >>>>> he >>>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>>>> >>>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well >>>>> as >>>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? Until then, >>>>> I >>>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Judy >>>>> >>>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in informal >>>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give them a >>>>> rest >>>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to >>>>> disappear >>>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is that the >>>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. >>>>> I >>>>> doubt this is true. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/d506feef/attachment-0001.html From jfq at myuw.net Mon Aug 24 04:50:43 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Mon Aug 24 03:01:12 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> Hi Judy, thanks for taking that in the spirt it was intended. I hope i do have daughters someday. My ten year old niece is one of the great loves and joys in my life and watching learn about and deal with the injustices visited upon her gender in our culture is something that has been a very enraging experience for me. Indeed, I do feel that non- sexist language is important. I just don't agree with you that the fact that "he" is the gender neutral singular pronoun is an example of sexist language. I'm of course open to being convinced otherwise, and since you clearly feel strongly that it is, I'd invite you to offer some argument in favor of that. At this point in the conversation, you have yet to do that. That having been said, you're right, getting the occasional loving whipping is a pleasant experience from time to time and does help us all keep some perspective. Although i'm normally not much of a bottom... -J On Aug 24, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Hi, Jay, > Glad you've explained your view. We disagree. Your business. And > mine. > > If you have [or will have] daughters, I hope you'll see the benefit > to them > of non-sexist language. > > I enjoy debate, argumentation, persuasion---and giving/getting a Very > Occasional gratuitous slap. You got the slap, and you gave back a > loving, > lingering wallop of your own. I expected it. I'm recovering. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/8/24 Jason Quackenbush > >> Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised >> that you >> would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an >> age where >> they would be participating in a list like this would have been >> born in that >> century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, >> alluding to >> what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what >> might be >> expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take as >> something >> of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain ignorance >> or >> backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, and >> frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you >> aren't in >> the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am taking >> the >> liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. >> >> To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at the >> fact >> that in the 21st century there are still people who can get worked >> up about >> nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a generation >> that the >> real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than >> quibbling >> over pronouns. >> >> the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in the >> fact >> that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in >> english are >> homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first >> world >> bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist >> society than >> in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to >> stand in for >> the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a >> placeholder noun >> in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially >> instantiated are >> different words with different meanings indicated by the context in >> which >> the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral >> pronouns. >> They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got >> replaced by >> "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the >> singular >> "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several centuries, >> and the >> only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are under >> the >> mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do >> with the >> correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all >> prescriptive >> grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to >> delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less well >> educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" amounts >> to much >> the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received >> Pronunciation in the >> UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of >> African >> American Vernacular English in "polite" company. >> >> Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur >> slowly, over >> time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to >> political ends, >> even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as >> doomed to >> failure as they are ill-conceived. >> >> That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to >> expend energy >> on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality >> because >> you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege and >> are >> therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone >> dares to call >> a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with you >> ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my own >> writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, this >> to keep >> both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a >> problem with >> the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw >> attention to >> themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I >> imagine it >> feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine >> that's the >> reason that language purists have always attempted to control the >> freedom of >> expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect >> and accent. >> It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But >> frankly, I >> hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line just >> to avoid >> having to put up with criticism from people like you. >> >> Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm somewhat >> more >> willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've said >> all I >> have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from me >> unless >> you can find a way to be a bit more civil. >> >> Irritated Jay >> >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: >> >> Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? >>> Incredulous Judy >>> >>> 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >>> >>> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite >>> pronoun in >>>> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for >>>> the male >>>> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are >>>> ignorant of >>>> this >>>> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally >>>> try to >>>> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >>>> intellectually >>>> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by >>>> such a >>>> petty >>>> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people >>>> to >>>> argue >>>> about it if they want to. >>>> >>>> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >>>> sexisms, >>>> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has >>>> left >>>> off >>>> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written >>>> poetry >>>> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done >>>> that, >>>> but i >>>> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >>>> possible. >>>> >>>> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage >>>> with the >>>> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find >>>> those >>>> areas >>>> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show >>>> the >>>> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars >>>> that have >>>> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological >>>> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue >>>> even to >>>> >>>>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal >>>>> pronoun in >>>>> Jane >>>>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>>>> >>>>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on >>>>> faut." >>>>> Very >>>>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>>>> >>>>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to >>>>> others. >>>>> God >>>>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever >>>>> question >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago >>>>> Manual >>>>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two >>>>> publishers >>>>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, >>>>> according to >>>>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. >>>>> Somebody must >>>>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously-- >>>>> sometimes I >>>>> need a >>>>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to >>>>> can it, >>>>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any >>>>> genderless >>>>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mark,? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do >>>>>> not >>>>>> feel >>>>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not >>>>>> "woman". ? >>>>>> I >>>>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young >>>>>> females >>>>>> who >>>>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? >>>>>> If they >>>>>> read >>>>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>>>> themselves. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>>>>> after, >>>>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>>>> dealing, >>>>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These >>>>>> guidelines >>>>>> have >>>>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using >>>>>> "he" for >>>>>> both >>>>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it >>>>>> was, and >>>>>> he >>>>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who >>>>>> noticed. >>>>>> >>>>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them >>>>>> as well >>>>>> as >>>>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? >>>>>> Until then, >>>>>> I >>>>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Judy >>>>>> >>>>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>>>>> informal >>>>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give >>>>>> them a >>>>>> rest >>>>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to >>>>>> disappear >>>>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is >>>>>> that the >>>>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to >>>>>> inequalities. >>>>>> I >>>>>> doubt this is true. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 06:54:16 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 24 05:04:33 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <8CBF262AEF985E8-148C-33B@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908240354u8a6446fw896e3751b0a5c292@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Jason, on the he form. We have conventions, these conventions allow us to communicate thoughts. We have words, and we use them, with punctuation marks. All fine with me (well, up to a certain point, without mentioning any deconstructive or philosophical speculations). By accepting these conventions I can try to express what I want to say. As per the Italian or the French language there is the impersonal form, so much used, and so little used in English. "One, they, we" is broad and not precise, in Italian there is "si dice" - in French "on dit" which is quite fine. But also both the Italian and French languages respect the male gender, and I do. On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 1:43 AM, wrote: > I try to write around the 'he' with 'one' when I can. Oddly, if the > sentence reflects negatively on the 'he' then its STET for me. > I presume maleness has caused most of the world's woes. So I'm likely to > leave the 'he/him' behaving badly. > > How would languages that have male and female nouns sort out things into > genderless language?` We can be thankful > that English confines the problem to the pronouns and the easily worked > around 'chairman' and 'fireman' and such. > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry > > One can, of course, devalue the word "serious." It's an issue, but I can > think of a few others that are maybe more important. > > I tend to be very conservative about changes in the language--not > vocabulary, which comes and goes, but structure. That said, usage is often a > matter of context. I tend to use "one," which may appear todgy, but at least > doesn't confuse reference. > > Is icecream male or female? Does it depend on whether it comes in a cone or > a dish? > > At 02:14 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: > >Judy -- it is a serious issue, and one I deal with all the time >teaching > Freshman comp. If this were a student paper, I would tell >the student to > use a gender-neutral pronoun, and I'd normally >suggest "they" -- the > principal reasons why people start to write >poetry -- they bla bla bla. > > > >An exception -- and I suppose you could argue that it applies here, >but I > don't think so -- if "he" or "she" essentially means "me." > > > > > > > >Judy Prince wrote: > >>Mark, > >>This is a serious issue, in my opinion. > >> > >>When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not > >>feel as if it applies to me or any female. I read "man"----not >>"woman". > I feel excluded. This is an even more important issue >>for young females > who need to identify with females, who need >>female role models. If they > read "he", they will 'see' males in >>the contexts, not females---not > themselves. > >> > >>Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>after, > guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of >>examples, dealing, > among other situations, with the universal >>"he". These guidelines have > been used effectively up to the >>present time. Bob's using "he" for both > genders reads as if it >>were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and he > forgot to update >>it]. I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. > >> > >>When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>well > as females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral >>world. Until then, I > reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. > >> > >>Best, > >> > >>Judy > >> > >>2009/8/23 Mark Weiss mailto:junction@earthlink.net >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite > >> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in > >> informal contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to > >> give them a rest for the moment. If all of the serious gendered > >> injustices were to disappear I think no one would worry about > >> this. I guess the theory is that the persistence of gendered usage > >> somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. I doubt this is true. > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>New-Poetry mailing list > >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > >-- > >Tad Richards > >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/85b93064/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 08:32:40 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 05:50:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > No takers for Ze, Zem and Zerz or other pronounonical inventions? > > c Nor in any everyday speech I've listened to has he/she. Here's one I thought of just yesterday (that I present as an amusement, certain it could never catch on): it's "the" plus the first letter of its referent. So: a poet doesn't copy others, thep makes it new. This came from remembering one way to avoid the he-or-she predicament is to repeat the referent, as in "A poet doesn't copy others, a poet makes it new." --Bob From jfq at myuw.net Mon Aug 24 07:50:17 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Mon Aug 24 06:00:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: i suggest we we take a page from the rastafarian's book and just replace all personal pronouns with "I and I" I also like the pronouns "a" and "em" from Jamaican patois. they get a lot of mileage out of a few words on that island. On Aug 24, 2009, at 5:32 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: >> No takers for Ze, Zem and Zerz or other pronounonical inventions? >> >> c > Nor in any everyday speech I've listened to has he/she. Here's one > I thought of just yesterday (that I present as an amusement, certain > it could never catch on): it's "the" plus the first letter of its > referent. So: a poet doesn't copy others, thep makes it new. This > came from remembering one way to avoid the he-or-she predicament is > to repeat the referent, as in "A poet doesn't copy others, a poet > makes it new." > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 24 08:44:14 2009 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon Aug 24 06:54:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> Message-ID: <730835.62289.qm@web54112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I do have a daughter, two days from 13, and when I read bits of the list to her and asked her about the sexist language, she thought I was crazy. Then she went back to reading her book--one of the many books she has that is directed specifically to teenage girl. She bought it after browsing the racks and racks of books at the bookstore directed specifically to teenage girls. I guess I'll have to explain to her that the indefinite "he" is sexist, let her know how she's being marginalized. ________________________________ From: Jason Quackenbush To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 4:50:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry Hi Judy, thanks for taking that in the spirt it was intended. I hope i do have daughters someday. My ten year old niece is one of the great loves and joys in my life and watching learn about and deal with the injustices visited upon her gender in our culture is something that has been a very enraging experience for me. Indeed, I do feel that non-sexist language is important. I just don't agree with you that the fact that "he" is the gender neutral singular pronoun is an example of sexist language. I'm of course open to being convinced otherwise, and since you clearly feel strongly that it is, I'd invite you to offer some argument in favor of that. At this point in the conversation, you have yet to do that. That having been said, you're right, getting the occasional loving whipping is a pleasant experience from time to time and does help us all keep some perspective. Although i'm normally not much of a bottom... -J On Aug 24, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Hi, Jay, > Glad you've explained your view. We disagree. Your business. And mine. > > If you have [or will have] daughters, I hope you'll see the benefit to them > of non-sexist language. > > I enjoy debate, argumentation, persuasion---and giving/getting a Very > Occasional gratuitous slap. You got the slap, and you gave back a loving, > lingering wallop of your own. I expected it. I'm recovering. > > Best, > > Judy > > > 2009/8/24 Jason Quackenbush > >> Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised that you >> would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an age where >> they would be participating in a list like this would have been born in that >> century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, alluding to >> what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what might be >> expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take as something >> of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain ignorance or >> backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, and >> frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you aren't in >> the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am taking the >> liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. >> >> To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at the fact >> that in the 21st century there are still people who can get worked up about >> nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a generation that the >> real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than quibbling >> over pronouns. >> >> the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in the fact >> that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in english are >> homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first world >> bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist society than >> in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to stand in for >> the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a placeholder noun >> in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially instantiated are >> different words with different meanings indicated by the context in which >> the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral pronouns. >> They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got replaced by >> "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the singular >> "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several centuries, and the >> only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are under the >> mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do with the >> correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all prescriptive >> grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to >> delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less well >> educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" amounts to much >> the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received Pronunciation in the >> UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of African >> American Vernacular English in "polite" company. >> >> Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur slowly, over >> time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to political ends, >> even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as doomed to >> failure as they are ill-conceived. >> >> That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to expend energy >> on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality because >> you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege and are >> therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone dares to call >> a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with you >> ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my own >> writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, this to keep >> both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a problem with >> the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw attention to >> themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I imagine it >> feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine that's the >> reason that language purists have always attempted to control the freedom of >> expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect and accent. >> It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But frankly, I >> hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line just to avoid >> having to put up with criticism from people like you. >> >> Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm somewhat more >> willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've said all I >> have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from me unless >> you can find a way to be a bit more civil. >> >> Irritated Jay >> >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: >> >> Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? >>> Incredulous Judy >>> >>> 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >>> >>> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in >>>> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for the male >>>> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are ignorant of >>>> this >>>> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally try to >>>> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >>>> intellectually >>>> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such a >>>> petty >>>> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to >>>> argue >>>> about it if they want to. >>>> >>>> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >>>> sexisms, >>>> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has left >>>> off >>>> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written >>>> poetry >>>> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done that, >>>> but i >>>> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >>>> possible. >>>> >>>> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage with the >>>> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find those >>>> areas >>>> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the >>>> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars that have >>>> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological >>>> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue even to >>>> >>>>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal pronoun in >>>>> Jane >>>>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>>>> >>>>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." >>>>> Very >>>>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>>>> >>>>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to others. >>>>> God >>>>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever question >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual >>>>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two >>>>> publishers >>>>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, according to >>>>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody must >>>>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously--sometimes I >>>>> need a >>>>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to can it, >>>>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any genderless >>>>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mark,? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>>>>> feel >>>>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not "woman". ? >>>>>> I >>>>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young females >>>>>> who >>>>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? If they >>>>>> read >>>>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>>>> themselves. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and after, >>>>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>>>> dealing, >>>>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These guidelines >>>>>> have >>>>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" for >>>>>> both >>>>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it was, and >>>>>> he >>>>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>>>>> >>>>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as well >>>>>> as >>>>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? Until then, >>>>>> I >>>>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Judy >>>>>> >>>>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in informal >>>>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give them a >>>>>> rest >>>>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to >>>>>> disappear >>>>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is that the >>>>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to inequalities. >>>>>> I >>>>>> doubt this is true. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/b98597f2/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 09:56:21 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:07:58 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net><4A9189CF.5070608@nut- n-but.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> As usual, Judy, you answer none of my arguments. I admit, I don't like "she" as a referent for "the poet." That's because for at least a century, the language got along fine with "he" meaning, when the context made it OBVIOUS, /he or she/. I fear it makes sense, too, women being men with an extra ability, child-bearing, just as a fireman is a man with an extra ability, fire-fighting. But it comes finally down to why disruptively change a triviality to no reasonable purpose? It's too bad there's no good cure for this problem, but that's the way it is. Oh, and the lone poet is the distinctive individual who composes poetry, not a group. A person who is singular, not persons who blur out of singularity. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/635705f3/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 10:11:43 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:23:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504 @nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><98EF46 75-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net><7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> Message-ID: <4A929F9F.6070505@nut-n-but.net> I do disagree with you on one thing about words, Jay--I think Judy is right in believing in the connotative power of "he." I don't see how it can be used without suggesting maleness. This is its defect as a pronoun. I agree with you that it's trivial. Since it can't be remedied, I feel people should adjust to it the way we adjust to unavoidable paradoxes like "what I'm saying is false." Same with "they." Its connotations are there. "To each their own" absolutely does not work because of the connotations of "they." (Note: in the war of the sexes, which will end only when computers take over, the vocal members of each side are convinced that the other side is dominant and unfair to them.) --Bob From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 09:14:59 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:25:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A9189CF.5070608@nut-n-but.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > You wanted to focus on the lone poet, Bob? What in the world are you > talking about? > Quit slithering around with your daily-changing logic, your temporary > reasons. It's time for you to be 'transparent', as they now say. > > Go ahead and join the 21st century of folks who appreciate non-sexist > language and have been using it for years. Rewrite your 'lone poet' list; > you might learn something about translating and about yourself, not to > mention others. > > If the following does not 'feel' comfortable to you, then it's exactly how > I feel when reading your list with male-only pronouns: "The poet composed > alone, no drinking buddies, no pub-bore distractions---only the small blank > computer page ready for her words." > This is typical of discussion of diversity-related issues in the afluent west, as I just observed on another list. Bob offended Judy's sensibilities pertaining to membership of a group, so she responds by attacking him personally. I can't imagine why it would make anyone uncomfortable to see "she" used as a pronoun of indeterminate gender. It would be confusing, but that's not really the same thing as uncomfortable. You can choose to read Bob's list as just referring to male poets, if you like. There is a lot in any language that offends groups. As a first generation black African immigrant, I could say the entire bloody English language offends and oppresses me, and that would not be a lonely position. In reality, though, I think that's nonsense. I think one person is always free to claim that they object to another's language, but it needs to be a personal discussion, and not part of any group's program. I do avoid "he" as gender-neutral pronoun in particular settings where I have relationships with people whom that would offend. You might be surprised to know that is not always the case. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/73119222/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 09:23:15 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:33:31 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > As usual, Judy, you answer none of my arguments. I admit, I don't like > "she" as a referent for "the poet." That's because for at least a century, > the language got along fine with "he" meaning, when the context made it > OBVIOUS, *he or she*. I fear it makes sense, too, women being men with an > extra ability, child-bearing, just as a fireman is a man with an extra > ability, fire-fighting. But it comes finally down to why disruptively > change a triviality to no reasonable purpose? It's too bad there's no good > cure for this problem, but that's the way it is. > I said "I can't imagine why" in my last e-mail, and Bob has supplemented my imagination. I must say I still don't get it. Long convention is what would lie behind confusion if someone uses "she" got indeterminate gender, but I'm not sure I find your reasoning strong enough for dislike. Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I would find strange from a poet)? Indeed the "child-bearing" bit is extremely confusing. I think that bit beggars sense to a much lower degree than Judy's proposed reversal. And "that's just the way it is?" Really? Thanks for illustrating that the bewildering way these arguments proceed in such settings is characteristic of both sides of the issue. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/97d0ab7b/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 10:32:26 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:42:36 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><4b65c2d70908220609p121a1399w8700 0a103fed4273@mail.gmail.com><8CBF151894862FC-15A0-4DAF@WEBMAIL-MY16 .sysops.aol.com><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.co m><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <271477.36362.qm@web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A92A47A.9010707@nut-n-but.net> John Jeffrey wrote: > Bob, it's a nice list, I think so, too--I'm pleased that it's getting courteous responses, unlike certain other posts, including some of mine. > though I think you should rate the reasons in order of occurrence. > Here's how I'd rate them: I do like this idea. > > 1 - 1. Has enjoyed reading others' poetry so much that h wants to > repeat h enjoyment with poems of h own. After thinking about this, I remembered that my list is really reasons not that people compose poetry, but that that people take up the /serious/ composition of poetry. What makes a person (of either sex) decide to devote a serious portion of HIS life to it. So while I think almost everyone's first poem was a rhyme in emulation of a rhyme his mother read to him or he heard playing a game, I'm not sure it would be the first inspiration for a life as a poet. I think it was for me, though. > 2 - 9. Experience creative pleasure. For me, yes, either second or first. Maybe tied for first. > 3 - 6. Capture some precious moment in words. I'm wondering if another reason would be not to capture some precious moment but to invent one. > 4 - 8. The Hillary Motivation--sees poetry as a challenge worth > meeting simply because it's there. This may be last. The poet is making poems he and others like, but then is told that the epic, say, is a dead form, and decides to show "them." My final ambition as a poet is to make an visual poetry epic. I doubt I will, but one can dream to the end. (I have it sketched out in my head but need a better computer and printer to do it, and more energy than I seem to have anymore.) > 5 - 4. Wants approval--most usually, in the beginning, the approval of > some adult poetry-lover, probably a teacher. This, I'm afraid, has always been close to last, for me. But, no, as I realized typing that: I /do/ want very much to win the approval of certain fellow-poets. > 6 - 3. Has something to say to which h believes only h can do > justice--that is, h has a need for self-expression. I'm not even sure this one would be one of my motivations. > 7 - 2. Wants to provide others with poetry h thinks they'll enjoy--and > therefore give hself the pleasure of enjoying their enjoyment. > 8 - 7. Wants to solve personal problems--that is, to re-render > (consciously or unconsciously) h notion of the past so it feels better. I can't believe this has ever motivated me. > 9 - 5. Wants to earn money, and insanely believes that composing a > poem with accomplish this. Alas, this has been high on my personal list . . . I think. It's hard to say because I rarely try to make a poem I think will sell. But if I have a few more or less equal ideas for poems, I will choose the one I think would have the best chance of making money. And if I think I can adjust a poem to make it more salable without spoiling it, I will. There are a lot of decisions like that. Adjustments with other than purely aesthetic motivation. Not wanting to bother an aunt with particularly gross language, say. Not wanting to get the feminists against you. > > I think number 1 is 1 because I believe that's the reason why many > first wrote (or verbally composed) a poem--imitating mother goose or > Dr. Seuss. (Unless you're only talking about real, > honest-ta-goodness, change-the-world, "I a poet"-type poems.) > > I move 6 up so high (to 3rd) simply because that's the reason for most > of the closet poets I know--and that's a huge number. Agreed. > > And where is writing a poem only to get Carol Sacknoff to fall in love > you? Why's is that not on the list? > > JohnJ I was never successful that way, that's why it's not on the list! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/12650919/attachment-0001.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 10:44:34 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:54:45 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <78583934-B223-4167-A59D-74315185FC8B@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A8F37DE.50206@nut-n-but.net><8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sy sops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com><98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net><4A91DAB9.7020409@nut-n-but.net><5782139B-5599-4079-97DC- 3CFBE6B1B7E9@myuw.net><4A91FD4A.90600@nut-n-but.net> <78583934-B223-4167-A59D-74315185FC8B@myuw.net> Message-ID: <4A92A752.4050903@nut-n-but.net> Jason Quackenbush wrote: > You should read Hubert Dreyfuss's book "what computers can't do" for a > very interesting discussion about why human intelligence isn't > computation, or at least isn't JUST computation. It converted me away > from a belief in Strong AI. Thanks for the title, Jay. I feel I know what computers can't do at present but I'm unalterably a mechanistic thinker--can't even begin to imagine how anything that moves can be other than a machine. So I can't believe artificial intelligence won't match "natural" intelligence eventually. > > And I am looking forward to your study on Shakespeare. Thanks. I've discussed it here before I now remember. It seems like a long time ago, but I piddled out on it (temporarily, I hope) only five or six months ago. > You're working on all the Sonnets as a part of that project right? Not sure yet. The preliminary idea was to focus on #18 only (amusingly, in a context with a guy I argue about who wrote the sonnets whose views I would also present; he finds an undertext that makes the addressee Queen Elizabeth, and the "summer's day" Mary, Queen of Scots, with Oxford the poet, and Raleigh in there somewhere). Robin and I sparred a bit on this. I do recognize the value of taking the sonnet as part of a sequence, and as part of an era, etc. But my main intention is to treat it as a stand-alone art-object, which it also is. I won't ignore clear allusions to topical events or whatever, but don't think this sonnet has any. Or any knowable ones. One thing I did was list every specimen I could find of what I call a melodation--rhyme, alliteration, euphony, etc. Will let New-Poetry know if I--make that WHEN I--get going on it, again. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 24 09:48:54 2009 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Aug 24 07:59:32 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net><4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net><7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com><4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <29DA03392E99456B93BF1D4996F64324@RobinLaptopPC> Some time ago on this thread, Mark wondered (I think) how all this would play out in a hundred years' time. In a sense, this issue has already come up over the implications of revising the characteristically male referents in Renaissance language -- should we replace Mankind with Humanity (and what happens if we do?). There are problems, not least that "humanity" was a lexical option in the Renaissance (think Rex Humanitas in the Morality Plays), and the male referent -- God created man, etc., -- is not simply a lexically gendered term but also (in the Renaissance) carries more or less heavy implications of male superiority. Whereas nowadays, to use the term "Mankind" when "Humanity would be otherwise appropriate carries a different weight of implication and reflects different presumptions. So "he" isn't simply, now or ever, completely gender-neutral. While (as Bob pointed out) the context will almost invariably determine whether we're talking about he-as-opposed-to-she rather than he-as-part-of-the-group-"they" [containing both shes and hes], surely there always has to be a pause, of however long or short a duration, before the reader or hearer determines which catagory the term falls into. And whether it applies specifically to or deliberately excludes him or her (or her or him). (I'm not sure I go with Jason as seeing the two senses of "he" as homonyms -- that seems to me to already beg the question that in certain contexts "he" is completely gender-neutral.) Then there's "poetess" as a gendered diminution of a female poet -- at the same time that female chairpersons were fighting to have their gender identity enshrined in lexis, women poets were rejecting a separate gender identity. Who speaks of (or for) poetesses today? I think what I'm trying to say is that we can't approach this issue by drawing a total line between the male-gendered generic pronoun and other lingustically gendered terms. Certainly, syntax is more intransigent than semantics, as has been pointed out. All part of a consciousness-raising exercise, I suppose. Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/6e5a33bf/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 10:54:12 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 08:05:40 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> One big irony in this discussion of poet as always "he" is that one thing that /kept/ me from becoming a poet before I turned 19 was the near universal belief that it was for girls only. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/a9971f11/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 11:17:53 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 08:29:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net><4A91CC8F.2060703@nut- n-but.net><7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com><4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > As usual, Judy, you answer none of my arguments. I admit, I don't > like "she" as a referent for "the poet." That's because for at > least a century, the language got along fine with "he" meaning, > when the context made it OBVIOUS, /he or she/. I fear it makes > sense, too, women being men with an extra ability, child-bearing, > just as a fireman is a man with an extra ability, fire-fighting. > But it comes finally down to why disruptively change a triviality > to no reasonable purpose? It's too bad there's no good cure for > this problem, but that's the way it is. > > > I said "I can't imagine why" in my last e-mail, and Bob has > supplemented my imagination. I must say I still don't get it. Long > convention is what would lie behind confusion if someone uses "she" > got indeterminate gender, but I'm not sure I find your reasoning > strong enough for dislike. Well, Uche, you idiot (sorry, but as you've pointed out, personal insult is madnatory at theis stage of the exchange, you having disagreed with me), I was describing why I, just me, dislike it. Like if you wrote, "Poets are strange, her sometimes avoid grammatical correctness," I might be annoyed because I have to stop and figure out what is meant, where what is meant isn't really worth the effort. But there is another factor, for me: I have to admit: the use of "she" where I would expect "he" also reminds me of politics I don't want to think about. > Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I > would find strange from a poet)? Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey information. > Indeed the "child-bearing" bit is extremely confusing. If women were not able to bear children, they would not be significantly different from men. I claim it makes sense (roughly) to think of women as men with a specialty that men are not born with. We're all, in a manner of speaking, men (by this reasoning) until puberty. Then women get an addition that allows them to have a career (if they want it) that men can't have; men get nothing like it (being a drone doesn't qualify as a career in my eyes). Men and women go one to get other additions that make them firemen, woodsmen, craftsmen--although feminism is changing the terminology. > I think that bit beggars sense to a much lower degree than Judy's > proposed reversal. And "that's just the way it is?" Really? Yes, really. I'm saying there is no way to perfect the language. There may be a way to achieve gender-neutral pronouns that doesn't screw up the language, but I haven't come across one. > > Thanks for illustrating that the bewildering way these arguments > proceed in such settings is characteristic of both sides of the issue. Watch the dialecticalism, buddy. There are more than two sides to this! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/2204a5a5/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Mon Aug 24 10:33:49 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 24 08:44:04 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >> >> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived sexisms, >> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has left off >> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written poetry >> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done that You poor bastard! You clearly didn't meet the right men/women... c From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 10:34:59 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 08:45:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Uche Ogbuji wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> As usual, Judy, you answer none of my arguments. I admit, I don't like >> "she" as a referent for "the poet." That's because for at least a century, >> the language got along fine with "he" meaning, when the context made it >> OBVIOUS, *he or she*. I fear it makes sense, too, women being men with >> an extra ability, child-bearing, just as a fireman is a man with an extra >> ability, fire-fighting. But it comes finally down to why disruptively >> change a triviality to no reasonable purpose? It's too bad there's no good >> cure for this problem, but that's the way it is. >> > > I said "I can't imagine why" in my last e-mail, and Bob has supplemented my > imagination. I must say I still don't get it. Long convention is what > would lie behind confusion if someone uses "she" got indeterminate gender, > but I'm not sure I find your reasoning strong enough for dislike. > > Well, Uche, you idiot (sorry, but as you've pointed out, personal insult is > madnatory at theis stage of the exchange, you having disagreed with me), I > was describing why I, just me, dislike it. Like if you wrote, "Poets are > strange, her sometimes avoid grammatical correctness," I might be annoyed > because I have to stop and figure out what is meant, where what is meant > isn't really worth the effort. But there is another factor, for me: I have > to admit: the use of "she" where I would expect "he" also reminds me of > politics I don't want to think about. > Which corroborates Judy's prediction of you precisely. All I can say is that I'm not so naive as to think one can avoid politics in anything. > Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I > would find strange from a poet)? > > Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the > context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey > information. > Ah, you're all for your own coinages, but insist on tradition with regard to pronouns, eh? Very interesting. I don't personally think a poet's preoccupation with language should stop at poetry. > > Indeed the "child-bearing" bit is extremely confusing. > > If women were not able to bear children, they would not be significantly > different from men. > This to me reads like an observation by one who has not first observed the world. > I claim it makes sense (roughly) to think of women as men with a > specialty that men are not born with. We're all, in a manner of speaking, > men (by this reasoning) until puberty. Then women get an addition that > allows them to have a career (if they want it) that men can't have; men get > nothing like it (being a drone doesn't qualify as a career in my eyes). Men > and women go one to get other additions that make them firemen, woodsmen, > craftsmen--although feminism is changing the terminology. > I think your ideas are every bit as surprising and strange as Judy's proposed reversal. And no less political. And I wonder where congenitally barren women and the trans-gendered fit into your pat analysis. > > I think that bit beggars sense to a much lower degree than Judy's > proposed reversal. And "that's just the way it is?" Really? > > > Yes, really. I'm saying there is no way to perfect the language. There > may be a way to achieve gender-neutral pronouns that doesn't screw up the > language, but I haven't come across one. > > > Thanks for illustrating that the bewildering way these arguments proceed in > such settings is characteristic of both sides of the issue. > > Watch the dialecticalism, buddy. There are more than two sides to this! > "N sides", if you like. And I don't have to watch anything any more than you do. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/ed26d17c/attachment.html From chris at chrislott.org Mon Aug 24 10:42:57 2009 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon Aug 24 08:53:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > If women were not able to bear children, they would not be significantly > different from men.? I claim it makes sense (roughly) to think of women as > men with a specialty that? men are not born with.? We're all, in a manner of > speaking, men (by this reasoning) until puberty. I've never explicitly thought of it in these terms, but now that you bring it up, it seems just the opposite... and isn't that supported a bit in terms of chromosomes? It does still take two (at some point in the process) to tango... c From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 10:50:52 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:01:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Once again, I'll suggest "poets" instead of "the poet" because the problem dissolves. When generalizing, use plurals. Duh. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > As usual, Judy, you answer none of my arguments. I admit, I don't like > "she" as a referent for "the poet." That's because for at least a century, > the language got along fine with "he" meaning, when the context made it > OBVIOUS, *he or she*. I fear it makes sense, too, women being men with an > extra ability, child-bearing, just as a fireman is a man with an extra > ability, fire-fighting. But it comes finally down to why disruptively > change a triviality to no reasonable purpose? It's too bad there's no good > cure for this problem, but that's the way it is. > > Oh, and the lone poet is the distinctive individual who composes poetry, > not a group. A person who is singular, not persons who blur out of > singularity. > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/200c29e6/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 10:53:09 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:03:24 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: And earlier on, we're all fish. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > > > If women were not able to bear children, they would not be significantly > > different from men. I claim it makes sense (roughly) to think of women > as > > men with a specialty that men are not born with. We're all, in a manner > of > > speaking, men (by this reasoning) until puberty. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/3ceec559/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 10:55:28 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:05:44 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Once again, I'll suggest "poets" instead of "the poet" because the > problem dissolves. When generalizing, use plurals. Duh. Most listeners will hear a difference of rhetorical emphasis between the two, so it's not as facile an issue as you make it out to be. You are suggesting a sacrifice of style in order to avoid offense. I think it's a fair request, but hardly the absolute formula you suggest it to be. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/fec59e06/attachment.html From cheekc at muohio.edu Mon Aug 24 10:59:14 2009 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:09:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] for any near Toronto ;-) Message-ID: <5D2A8063-3FEC-437D-83E8-783038FA3600@muohio.edu> (Hi folks--Apologies if you get multiple copies of this....) i'm forwarding it: * Aug.29 in Toronto: A poetry/sound/multimedia performance-- *cris cheek *(London/US) + *Barnyard Drama *[Christine Duncan/Jean Martin] (Toronto) 8pm, at Somewhere There Live Creative Music in Toronto 340 Dufferin Street - one block South of Queen Street ** entrance from Melbourne Ave. ** www.somewherethere.org $8 cover, or free admission if you purchase cris's new book *part: short life housing *(specially priced for this event at $16!) *ABOUT CRIS CHEEK: *cris cheek is a sound artist, poet, photographer, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer, whose works have been commissioned and shown locally and trans-locally, in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. Born in London in 1955, he lived and worked there until the early 1990s, a performance writer very much a part of what was going on with poetry in that capital city. His musical collaborations include Slant (a trio with Phillip Jeck and Sianed Jones) and Garam Masala; he also collaborated in 1999-2007 with Kirsten Lavers on the cross-disciplinary project Things Not Worth Keeping ( www.thingsnotworthkeeping.com) . He currently lives in the temperate deciduous forests of the southwest Ohio River Valley. cris?s most recent book is *part: short life housing *(Toronto: The Gig, 2009), a collection of six texts from the 1980s and 1990s, including ?canning town chronicles,? a scathing set of verbal accretions that emerged from the wreckage of the Thatcher era; and ?f o g s,? a series of typestracts quarried from verbal improvisations recorded during outdoor walks in densely foggy weather. For more info contact: Nate Dorward 109 Hounslow Ave., North York, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada nate.dorward@gmail.com - 416 221 6865 * RECENT PUBLICATIONS: cris cheek, PART: SHORT LIFE HOUSING Trevor Joyce, WHAT'S IN STORE ANTIPHONIES: Essays on Women's Experimental Poetries in Canada More information at www.ndorward.com/poetry/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 11:06:34 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:17:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Uche: How does your first language handle gender? Forgive me for assuming that your first language is not-English. Mark At 10:55 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Halvard Johnson ><halvard@gmail.com> wrote: >Once again, I'll suggest "poets" instead of "the poet" because the >problem dissolves. When generalizing, use plurals. Duh. > > >Most listeners will hear a difference of rhetorical emphasis between >the two, so it's not as facile an issue as you make it out to >be. You are suggesting a sacrifice of style in order to avoid >offense. I think it's a fair request, but hardly the absolute >formula you suggest it to be. > > >-- >Uche >Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net >Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com >Linked-in profile: >http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >Articles: >http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >Join me at Balisage: >* http://www.balisage.net/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 11:10:32 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:20:43 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Point to a solution that sacrifices less in the way of style, please, Uche. I haven't seen it here in these discussions yet. Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Once again, I'll suggest "poets" instead of "the poet" because the >> problem dissolves. When generalizing, use plurals. Duh. > > > Most listeners will hear a difference of rhetorical emphasis between the > two, so it's not as facile an issue as you make it out to be. You are > suggesting a sacrifice of style in order to avoid offense. I think it's a > fair request, but hardly the absolute formula you suggest it to be. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/f70393bb/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 11:13:46 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:24:01 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Uche: How does your first language handle gender? > > Forgive me for assuming that your first language is not-English. I'm not easily offended ;) My truly first language was Umon, and I barely remember any of it. I learned Umon, Igbo, Efik and English pretty much at the same time as my first languages. Of those, Igbo and English are the ones in which I'm current. There is no gender in the Igbo language. The same pronoun "o" is used for masculine and feminine. If you wanted to be specific about sex, you'd say "ndi-nwoke" (men-people), and "ndi-nwanyi" (women-people). -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/949d5a4f/attachment.html From obodooha at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 11:32:42 2009 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Mon Aug 24 09:43:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Uche is right. Igbo is gender-neutral in the use of pronominals. But this is not a deliberate or ideological design to avoid offence. The same language, nevertheless, contains expressions that derogate womanhood. Even proverbs -- which are treated as expressions of ancient "wisdom" -- also contain female-unfriendly meanings. One is not surprised that this is so because the Igbo have a patriarchal culture and men (that hold power in the society) also seek to govern at the social semiotic level. -- Obododimma. On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Uche: How does your first language handle gender? >> >> Forgive me for assuming that your first language is not-English. > > > I'm not easily offended ;) > > My truly first language was Umon, and I barely remember any of it. I > learned Umon, Igbo, Efik and English pretty much at the same time as my > first languages. Of those, Igbo and English are the ones in which I'm > current. > > There is no gender in the Igbo language. The same pronoun "o" is used for > masculine and feminine. If you wanted to be specific about sex, you'd say > "ndi-nwoke" (men-people), and "ndi-nwanyi" (women-people). > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/c256bb8c/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 12:34:12 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 10:44:28 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Uche is right. Igbo is gender-neutral in the use of pronominals. But this > is not a deliberate or ideological design to avoid offence. Agreed. Nor did I meant to imply this. > The same language, nevertheless, contains expressions that derogate > womanhood. Even proverbs -- which are treated as expressions of ancient > "wisdom" -- also contain female-unfriendly meanings. One is not surprised > that this is so because the Igbo have a patriarchal culture and men (that > hold power in the society) also seek to govern at the social semiotic level. Languages always carry assorted bits and pieces of the cultural timelines from which they spring. They can and should change. I do believe that such changes are only realistic as an aggregate of personal relationships, or through bloody revolution. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/ced55fa9/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 12:51:29 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 11:03:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: So, as a test case, are men and women more equal in the Igbo part of Nigeria than in the United States? At 11:13 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction@earthlink.net> wrote: >Uche: How does your first language handle gender? > >Forgive me for assuming that your first language is not-English. > > >I'm not easily offended ;) > >My truly first language was Umon, and I barely remember any of >it. I learned Umon, Igbo, Efik and English pretty much at the same >time as my first languages. Of those, Igbo and English are the ones >in which I'm current. > >There is no gender in the Igbo language. The same pronoun "o" is >used for masculine and feminine. If you wanted to be specific about >sex, you'd say "ndi-nwoke" (men-people), and "ndi-nwanyi" (women-people). > > >-- >Uche >Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net >Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com >Linked-in profile: >http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >Articles: >http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >Join me at Balisage: >* http://www.balisage.net/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 13:11:31 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 11:21:48 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > So, as a test case, are men and women more equal in the Igbo part of > Nigeria than in the United States? I think this is too simple a question. I do think in many conventional ways, US women are more equal, although I'm really don't know to what extent I'm qualified to judge. One immediate measure that springs to mind is the relatively high integration of women into armed forces, which is something hard to imagine in Nigeria. At the same time I think that educational support and encouragement for women in that part of the country, relative to overall available resources, is probably higher than in the US. But again I do question my own qualifications. The very answers to your questions are very complex and subtle, and I do not think they can support any broad implications at all, including the ones I suspect you're trying to draw from them. I will caution you against Spir-Whorf-type thinking, which is increasingly discredited in linguistics (and was never really ever credible, except in pop culture). -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/2829db4c/attachment-0001.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 13:18:37 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 11:29:11 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: My question was precisely a challenge to Spir-Whorf. At 01:11 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction@earthlink.net> wrote: >So, as a test case, are men and women more equal in the Igbo part of >Nigeria than in the United States? > > >I think this is too simple a question. I do think in many >conventional ways, US women are more equal, although I'm really >don't know to what extent I'm qualified to judge. One immediate >measure that springs to mind is the relatively high integration of >women into armed forces, which is something hard to imagine in Nigeria. > >At the same time I think that educational support and encouragement >for women in that part of the country, relative to overall available >resources, is probably higher than in the US. But again I do >question my own qualifications. > >The very answers to your questions are very complex and subtle, and >I do not think they can support any broad implications at all, >including the ones I suspect you're trying to draw from them. I >will caution you against Spir-Whorf-type thinking, which is >increasingly discredited in linguistics (and was never really ever >credible, except in pop culture). > > >-- >Uche >Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net >Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com >Linked-in profile: >http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >Articles: >http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >Join me at Balisage: >* http://www.balisage.net/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 13:21:39 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 11:31:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: See, I said these discussions are complex! I'm the one with the warnings, and the first to get tripped over my own presumptions. Please do excuse me. --Uche On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > My question was precisely a challenge to Spir-Whorf. > > At 01:11 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Mark Weiss <> junction@earthlink.net>junction@earthlink.net> wrote: >> So, as a test case, are men and women more equal in the Igbo part of >> Nigeria than in the United States? >> >> >> I think this is too simple a question. I do think in many conventional >> ways, US women are more equal, although I'm really don't know to what extent >> I'm qualified to judge. One immediate measure that springs to mind is the >> relatively high integration of women into armed forces, which is something >> hard to imagine in Nigeria. >> >> At the same time I think that educational support and encouragement for >> women in that part of the country, relative to overall available resources, >> is probably higher than in the US. But again I do question my own >> qualifications. >> >> The very answers to your questions are very complex and subtle, and I do >> not think they can support any broad implications at all, including the ones >> I suspect you're trying to draw from them. I will caution you against >> Spir-Whorf-type thinking, which is increasingly discredited in linguistics >> (and was never really ever credible, except in pop culture). >> >> >> -- >> Uche Ogbuji >> http://uche.ogbuji.net >> Founding Partner, Zepheira >> http://zepheira.com >> Linked-in profile: >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >> Articles: >> http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >> Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >> Join me at Balisage: >> * http://www.balisage.net/ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/9171325e/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 24 13:27:18 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 24 11:37:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Uche, I've hugely enjoyed this entire thread, am pleased to hear so many folks' opinions. I laughed out loud when you said: "...the entire bloody English language offends and oppresses me..." It resonated. My first understandings of sexism came from seeing and hearing the racisms all around me [I'm white, husband black, son black, neighbours black] in USAmerica, witnessing the barely-hidden disgust of both white and black people for black people. I read all I could on racism, noting well, probably for the sake of my son, how blacks internalised the racism, defeating themselves continuously, needing and getting so many heroes [female and male] to inspire and invigorate them for The Constant Fight. Only then did I recognise sexism with its similar mechanisms. It's not something one forgets easily, if ever. I recall one African-American essayist [unfortunately I've forgotten his name] saying that racism is like the flu: If everybody's got the symptoms, it doesn't seem like a sickness. Recently, my daughter-in-law Janet was reading one of the books my son had read as a child. With total delight, she read to their twin 5 year old sons, and I remembered that I'd printed a beginning "s" to every Universal "he". She said it made a big difference to her when she saw and heard the "she", rather than "he". She appreciated the change. I wonder how her sons responded to it. You and Obododimma mention Igbo's gender-neutral pronouns, and I've drawn attention to a similar thing in Beijing Chinese. These and other cultures have, as you and Obododimma have pointed out as well, classic sexist stories, despite the gender-neutral pronouns. Oh, I would like, though, such a gender-neutral pronoun in English! Failing that, my own preference is what Hal's been saying: use plurals. But, as others have noted, that doesn't de-sexist every situation. Re 'poet' and 'poetess', I know no women who wish to be called 'poetess', as I know no women who wish to be called 'actress' rather than 'actor'. Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of racism, my son said: "Interracial marriage." Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed to rid us of sexism. Or has it helped to ameliorate the situation? I suspect that it has. Best, Judy 2009/8/24 Uche Ogbuji > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> Uche is right. Igbo is gender-neutral in the use of pronominals. But this >> is not a deliberate or ideological design to avoid offence. > > > Agreed. Nor did I meant to imply this. > > > >> The same language, nevertheless, contains expressions that derogate >> womanhood. Even proverbs -- which are treated as expressions of ancient >> "wisdom" -- also contain female-unfriendly meanings. One is not surprised >> that this is so because the Igbo have a patriarchal culture and men (that >> hold power in the society) also seek to govern at the social semiotic level. > > > Languages always carry assorted bits and pieces of the cultural timelines > from which they spring. They can and should change. I do believe that such > changes are only realistic as an aggregate of personal relationships, or > through bloody revolution. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/1876da89/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 13:49:35 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 12:01:54 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need Message-ID: In the US both racism and sexism survive, but both have been greatly diminished, certainly in more enlightened parts of the country. When I was a kid in NY there was virtually no racial mixing at any level. Now my local pub, which is as close to a neighborhood meeting place as we have, is multiethnic and harmoniously so, and mixed couples are hardly remarked. Diminutions in sexism are harder to see at a glance, but the statistics are persuasive. In regions where the economic basis of sexism has become obsolete a lot of hard work has gone a long way towards toppling the official sanctions supporting it in an amazingly short time as social change goes. Attitudes change more slowly than laws. An important sign of change in attitudes, strangely, is the increasing acceptance of intragender marriage--gender as a focus for bias has been scaled back. again, the statistics support this--something like 75% of those polled think same sex marriage is no biggie. That other 25% remains dangerous. No reason to be patient, but realistically in a couple of generations (in the US at least) the worst of sexist acting out will be as marginal as the Aryan Nation. Best, Mark >Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of >racism, my son said: ? "Interracial marriage." ? ? > >Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed >to rid us of sexism. ? Or has it helped to >ameliorate the situation? ? I suspect that it has. > >Best, > >Judy > >2009/8/24 Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> >On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Obododimma Oha ><obodooha@gmail.com> wrote: >Uche is right. Igbo is gender-neutral in the use >of pronominals. But this is not a deliberate or >ideological design to avoid offence. > > >Agreed.? Nor did I meant to imply this. >? >The same language, nevertheless, contains >expressions that derogate womanhood. Even >proverbs -- which are treated as expressions of >ancient "wisdom" -- also contain >female-unfriendly meanings. One is not surprised >that this is so because the Igbo have a >patriarchal culture and men (that hold power in >the society) also seek to govern at the social semiotic level. > > >Languages always carry assorted bits and pieces >of the cultural timelines from which they >spring. They can and should change.? I do >believe that such changes are only realistic as >an aggregate of personal relationships, or through bloody revolution. > >-- >Uche Ogbuji >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >http://uche.ogbuji.net >Founding Partner, Zepheira ? ? ? ? >http://zepheira.com >Linked-in profile: >http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >Articles: >http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > >Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >Join me at Balisage: >* http://www.balisage.net/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 13:59:20 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 12:09:30 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > Uche, I've hugely enjoyed this entire thread, am pleased to hear so many > folks' opinions. > I laughed out loud when you said: "...the entire bloody English language > offends and oppresses me..." It resonated. My first understandings of > sexism came from seeing and hearing the racisms all around me [I'm white, > husband black, son black, neighbours black] in USAmerica, witnessing the > barely-hidden disgust of both white and black people for black people. I > read all I could on racism, noting well, probably for the sake of my son, > how blacks internalised the racism, defeating themselves continuously, > needing and getting so many heroes [female and male] to inspire and > invigorate them for The Constant Fight. > > Only then did I recognise sexism with its similar mechanisms. It's not > something one forgets easily, if ever. I recall one African-American > essayist [unfortunately I've forgotten his name] saying that racism is like > the flu: If everybody's got the symptoms, it doesn't seem like a sickness. > > Recently, my daughter-in-law Janet was reading one of the books my son had > read as a child. With total delight, she read to their twin 5 year old > sons, and I remembered that I'd printed a beginning "s" to every Universal > "he". She said it made a big difference to her when she saw and heard the > "she", rather than "he". She appreciated the change. I wonder how her sons > responded to it. > > You and Obododimma mention Igbo's gender-neutral pronouns, and I've drawn > attention to a similar thing in Beijing Chinese. These and other cultures > have, as you and Obododimma have pointed out as well, classic sexist > stories, despite the gender-neutral pronouns. Oh, I would like, though, > such a gender-neutral pronoun in English! > > Failing that, my own preference is what Hal's been saying: use plurals. > But, as others have noted, that doesn't de-sexist every situation. Re > 'poet' and 'poetess', I know no women who wish to be called 'poetess', as I > know no women who wish to be called 'actress' rather than 'actor'. > > Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of racism, my son said: > "Interracial marriage." > He right that it's our best chance. I suppose that might be self-congratulatory (my wife is white. Of course I never set out to marry a white woman.) But really, until humans change very fundamentally, shedding the deep-seated tendency towards discrimination (which was essential to safety and survival in the overwhelming majority of our timeline) we will always find ways to divide ourselves into groups, and there will always be bigotry that obtains therefrom. Doesn't mean people should stop trying to stamp it out. Far from it. Fighting to be better than we are, regardless of how difficult a fight, is essential to humanity. Oh dear, that's all getting a bit treacly. I'll rather leave off at that point. Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed to rid us of sexism. Or > has it helped to ameliorate the situation? I suspect that it has. > This sent me into fits of wry laughter. I do believe that as women's emancipation progresses, the marriage of ambitious, self-possessed women to men with perhaps too much of a "traditional" mindset is a valuable force for change. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/5699df51/attachment.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 14:16:05 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 24 12:26:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shedding discrimination just ain't gonna happen. There will always be "us" and there will always be "others." Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Judy Prince < > jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Uche, I've hugely enjoyed this entire thread, am pleased to hear so many >> folks' opinions. >> I laughed out loud when you said: "...the entire bloody English language >> offends and oppresses me..." It resonated. My first understandings of >> sexism came from seeing and hearing the racisms all around me [I'm white, >> husband black, son black, neighbours black] in USAmerica, witnessing the >> barely-hidden disgust of both white and black people for black people. I >> read all I could on racism, noting well, probably for the sake of my son, >> how blacks internalised the racism, defeating themselves continuously, >> needing and getting so many heroes [female and male] to inspire and >> invigorate them for The Constant Fight. >> >> Only then did I recognise sexism with its similar mechanisms. It's not >> something one forgets easily, if ever. I recall one African-American >> essayist [unfortunately I've forgotten his name] saying that racism is like >> the flu: If everybody's got the symptoms, it doesn't seem like a sickness. >> >> Recently, my daughter-in-law Janet was reading one of the books my son had >> read as a child. With total delight, she read to their twin 5 year old >> sons, and I remembered that I'd printed a beginning "s" to every Universal >> "he". She said it made a big difference to her when she saw and heard the >> "she", rather than "he". She appreciated the change. I wonder how her sons >> responded to it. >> >> You and Obododimma mention Igbo's gender-neutral pronouns, and I've drawn >> attention to a similar thing in Beijing Chinese. These and other cultures >> have, as you and Obododimma have pointed out as well, classic sexist >> stories, despite the gender-neutral pronouns. Oh, I would like, though, >> such a gender-neutral pronoun in English! >> >> Failing that, my own preference is what Hal's been saying: use plurals. >> But, as others have noted, that doesn't de-sexist every situation. Re >> 'poet' and 'poetess', I know no women who wish to be called 'poetess', as I >> know no women who wish to be called 'actress' rather than 'actor'. >> >> Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of racism, my son said: >> "Interracial marriage." >> > > He right that it's our best chance. I suppose that might be > self-congratulatory (my wife is white. Of course I never set out to marry a > white woman.) > > But really, until humans change very fundamentally, shedding the > deep-seated tendency towards discrimination (which was essential to safety > and survival in the overwhelming majority of our timeline) we will always > find ways to divide ourselves into groups, and there will always be bigotry > that obtains therefrom. > > Doesn't mean people should stop trying to stamp it out. Far from it. > Fighting to be better than we are, regardless of how difficult a fight, is > essential to humanity. > > Oh dear, that's all getting a bit treacly. I'll rather leave off at that > point. > > > Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed to rid us of sexism. Or >> has it helped to ameliorate the situation? I suspect that it has. >> > > This sent me into fits of wry laughter. I do believe that as women's > emancipation progresses, the marriage of ambitious, self-possessed women to > men with perhaps too much of a "traditional" mindset is a valuable force for > change. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/eb9a1cf5/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 15:27:53 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 13:38:07 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> Message-ID: <4A92E9B9.6010201@opus40.org> Jason -- you might consider that "he" is gender-neutral to you in the same way that that white people can, and do, say "there's no racism in America -- I certainly don't feel any." The danger is when one makes oneself the benchmark, and one finds oneself saying, as you are to Judy, "why should it bother you? It doesn't bother me." It's only neutral if it's neutral to both sides. Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Hi Judy, thanks for taking that in the spirt it was intended. I hope i > do have daughters someday. My ten year old niece is one of the great > loves and joys in my life and watching learn about and deal with the > injustices visited upon her gender in our culture is something that > has been a very enraging experience for me. Indeed, I do feel that > non-sexist language is important. I just don't agree with you that the > fact that "he" is the gender neutral singular pronoun is an example of > sexist language. I'm of course open to being convinced otherwise, and > since you clearly feel strongly that it is, I'd invite you to offer > some argument in favor of that. At this point in the conversation, you > have yet to do that. > > That having been said, you're right, getting the occasional loving > whipping is a pleasant experience from time to time and does help us > all keep some perspective. > > Although i'm normally not much of a bottom... > > -J > On Aug 24, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Hi, Jay, >> Glad you've explained your view. We disagree. Your business. And >> mine. >> >> If you have [or will have] daughters, I hope you'll see the benefit >> to them >> of non-sexist language. >> >> I enjoy debate, argumentation, persuasion---and giving/getting a Very >> Occasional gratuitous slap. You got the slap, and you gave back a >> loving, >> lingering wallop of your own. I expected it. I'm recovering. >> >> Best, >> >> Judy >> >> >> 2009/8/24 Jason Quackenbush >> >>> Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised that >>> you >>> would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an age >>> where >>> they would be participating in a list like this would have been born >>> in that >>> century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, >>> alluding to >>> what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what >>> might be >>> expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take as >>> something >>> of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain ignorance or >>> backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, and >>> frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you >>> aren't in >>> the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am taking the >>> liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. >>> >>> To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at the >>> fact >>> that in the 21st century there are still people who can get worked >>> up about >>> nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a generation >>> that the >>> real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than >>> quibbling >>> over pronouns. >>> >>> the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in the fact >>> that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in english >>> are >>> homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first world >>> bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist >>> society than >>> in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to stand >>> in for >>> the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a >>> placeholder noun >>> in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially >>> instantiated are >>> different words with different meanings indicated by the context in >>> which >>> the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral >>> pronouns. >>> They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got >>> replaced by >>> "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the >>> singular >>> "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several centuries, >>> and the >>> only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are under the >>> mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do >>> with the >>> correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all >>> prescriptive >>> grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to >>> delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less well >>> educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" amounts >>> to much >>> the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received Pronunciation >>> in the >>> UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of African >>> American Vernacular English in "polite" company. >>> >>> Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur >>> slowly, over >>> time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to political >>> ends, >>> even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as >>> doomed to >>> failure as they are ill-conceived. >>> >>> That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to expend >>> energy >>> on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality >>> because >>> you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege and are >>> therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone dares >>> to call >>> a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with you >>> ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my own >>> writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, this >>> to keep >>> both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a >>> problem with >>> the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw >>> attention to >>> themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I >>> imagine it >>> feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine >>> that's the >>> reason that language purists have always attempted to control the >>> freedom of >>> expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect and >>> accent. >>> It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But >>> frankly, I >>> hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line just >>> to avoid >>> having to put up with criticism from people like you. >>> >>> Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm somewhat >>> more >>> willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've said >>> all I >>> have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from me >>> unless >>> you can find a way to be a bit more civil. >>> >>> Irritated Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: >>> >>> Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? >>>> Incredulous Judy >>>> >>>> 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >>>> >>>> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite pronoun in >>>>> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for >>>>> the male >>>>> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are >>>>> ignorant of >>>>> this >>>>> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I generally >>>>> try to >>>>> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >>>>> intellectually >>>>> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by such a >>>>> petty >>>>> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave people to >>>>> argue >>>>> about it if they want to. >>>>> >>>>> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >>>>> sexisms, >>>>> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry has >>>>> left >>>>> off >>>>> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have written >>>>> poetry >>>>> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever done >>>>> that, >>>>> but i >>>>> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >>>>> possible. >>>>> >>>>> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage >>>>> with the >>>>> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find those >>>>> areas >>>>> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to show the >>>>> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars >>>>> that have >>>>> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal biological >>>>> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an issue >>>>> even to >>>>> >>>>>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal >>>>>> pronoun in >>>>>> Jane >>>>>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>>>>> >>>>>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on faut." >>>>>> Very >>>>>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>>>>> >>>>>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to >>>>>> others. >>>>>> God >>>>>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever >>>>>> question >>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago Manual >>>>>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. Two >>>>>> publishers >>>>>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, >>>>>> according to >>>>>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. Somebody >>>>>> must >>>>>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each >>>>>> promiscuously--sometimes I >>>>>> need a >>>>>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers to >>>>>> can it, >>>>>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any >>>>>> genderless >>>>>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark,? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I do not >>>>>>> feel >>>>>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not >>>>>>> "woman". ? >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for young >>>>>>> females >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? If >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> read >>>>>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>>>>> themselves. ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>>>>>> after, >>>>>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>>>>> dealing, >>>>>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These guidelines >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using "he" >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> both >>>>>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it >>>>>>> was, and >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who noticed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them as >>>>>>> well >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? >>>>>>> Until then, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Judy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>>>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>>>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or in >>>>>>> informal >>>>>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give >>>>>>> them a >>>>>>> rest >>>>>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices were to >>>>>>> disappear >>>>>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is >>>>>>> that the >>>>>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to >>>>>>> inequalities. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> doubt this is true. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 15:40:23 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 13:50:34 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92ECA7.5000104@opus40.org> Going back to the original question, here's Rae Armentrout: *How did you come to poetry first, as opposed to, say, fiction or non-fiction?* My mother read both poetry and fiction to me when I was young. I think the rhythms of poetry got into my mind and body. I?m the kind of person who can?t help but move to music. Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris Lott wrote: >> No takers for Ze, Zem and Zerz or other pronounonical inventions? >> >> c > Nor in any everyday speech I've listened to has he/she. Here's one I > thought of just yesterday (that I present as an amusement, certain it > could never catch on): it's "the" plus the first letter of its > referent. So: a poet doesn't copy others, thep makes it new. This came > from remembering one way to avoid the he-or-she predicament is to > repeat the referent, as in "A poet doesn't copy others, a poet makes > it new." > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 15:53:42 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:03:55 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com><4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com><7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com><4A918703.6090002@opus40.org><4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> Probably pretty close to alone. Bob Grumman wrote: > One big irony in this discussion of poet as always "he" is that one > thing that /kept/ me from becoming a poet before I turned 19 was the > near universal belief that it was for girls only. I'm sure I'm not > alone in this. > > --Bob > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 15:58:46 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:08:59 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92F0F6.70809@opus40.org> Uche -- I'm guessing fewer listeners as time goes on will register that rhetorical difference. There was a time when listeners heard a striking, emotionally demanding difference between "white and dark meat" and "breasts and thighs," but today very very few people, when asked "do you want white meat?" will think "heh heh -- that means breasts," or "oh thank God -- he didn't say breasts," or "what's the matter with her? Why can't she just say breasts?" but once on a time, most listeners would have had one of those reactions. Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > > Once again, I'll suggest "poets" instead of "the poet" because the > problem dissolves. When generalizing, use plurals. Duh. > > > Most listeners will hear a difference of rhetorical emphasis between > the two, so it's not as facile an issue as you make it out to be. You > are suggesting a sacrifice of style in order to avoid offense. I > think it's a fair request, but hardly the absolute formula you suggest > it to be. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 16:05:08 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:15:20 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net><4A91CC8F.2060703@nut- n-but.net><7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com><4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that >> I would find strange from a poet)? > Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if > the context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to > convey information. > > Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make it less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include "informature." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 16:09:14 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:19:25 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4A92F36A.3060300@opus40.org> Uche Ogbuji wrote: > ational support and encouragement for women in that part of the > country, relative to overall available resources, is probably higher > than in the US. But again I do question my own qualifications. > > The very answers to your questions are very complex and subtle, and I > do not think they can support any broad implications at all, including > the ones I suspect you're trying to draw from them. I will caution > you against Spir-Whorf-type thinking, which is increasingly > discredited in linguistics (and was never really ever credible, except > in pop culture). > > I had to look that one up. Fascinating. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 16:15:22 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:25:35 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92F0F6.70809@opus40.org> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F0F6.70809@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 1:58 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Uche -- I'm guessing fewer listeners as time goes on will register that > rhetorical difference. There was a time when listeners heard a striking, > emotionally demanding difference between "white and dark meat" and "breasts > and thighs," but today very very few people, when asked "do you want white > meat?" will think "heh heh -- that means breasts," or "oh thank God -- he > didn't say breasts," or "what's the matter with her? Why can't she just say > breasts?" but once on a time, most listeners would have had one of those > reactions. Ummmm, ooookaaayyyyyy? Not sure what to do with that one, but no one is saying that language doesn't change. I've said many times that it does. I've been trying to discourse with some nuances on how it changes. I think your suggestions lack that nuance. But I've also been quick to admit that as your prerogative. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/f5908c15/attachment.html From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 16:16:27 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:26:41 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:05 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I >>> would find strange from a poet)? >>> >> Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the >> context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey >> information. >> >> > Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make it > less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include "informature." That was my observation exactly. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/62c2d505/attachment.html From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 16:17:15 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:27:27 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A92F54B.9030400@opus40.org> > > Failing that, my own preference is what Hal's been saying: use > plurals. But, as others have noted, that doesn't de-sexist every > situation. Re 'poet' and 'poetess', I know no women who wish to > be called 'poetess', as I know no women who wish to be called > 'actress' rather than 'actor'. > Judy -- you're right, of course -- but Annie Finch has revived the term "poetess" with a special meaning -- http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/finch.html That lesson (the demeaning quality of "ess") was taught to me by a male professor in 1958 -- ahead of his time. -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Aug 24 16:24:07 2009 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:34:19 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F0F6.70809@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A92F6E7.7040805@opus40.org> I've always taken lack of nuance as my prerogative. Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 1:58 PM, TheOldMole > wrote: > > Uche -- I'm guessing fewer listeners as time goes on will register > that rhetorical difference. There was a time when listeners heard > a striking, emotionally demanding difference between "white and > dark meat" and "breasts and thighs," but today very very few > people, when asked "do you want white meat?" will think "heh heh > -- that means breasts," or "oh thank God -- he didn't say > breasts," or "what's the matter with her? Why can't she just say > breasts?" but once on a time, most listeners would have had one of > those reactions. > > > Ummmm, ooookaaayyyyyy? Not sure what to do with that one, but no one > is saying that language doesn't change. I've said many times that it > does. I've been trying to discourse with some nuances on how it > changes. I think your suggestions lack that nuance. But I've also > been quick to admit that as your prerogative. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net > Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com > Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji > Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ > Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche > Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji > Join me at Balisage: > * http://www.balisage.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Aug 24 16:27:54 2009 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:38:08 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92F6E7.7040805@opus40.org> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F0F6.70809@opus40.org> <4A92F6E7.7040805@opus40.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:24 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > I've always taken lack of nuance as my prerogative. Purists be damned. That one calls for an emoticon. :) -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji Join me at Balisage: * http://www.balisage.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/5948f876/attachment.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 16:31:52 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 14:42:16 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub3 9033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a 2f0@mail.gmail.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> Message-ID: My very literate parents thought that there was something mildly effeminate about my interest in poetry. This was pretty universal, I think, in the US. Universal enough for Ernie Kovacs to have a field day with. Remember Percy Dovetonsils? Even now in a lot of circles I get that reaction when I say I'm a poet. My father's last say on the subject was when I was about 45, to whit: "When are you going to stop farting around with poetry?" I had graduated from being intimidated, and I laughed. Led to the only good conversation we ever had. Part of this, I'm guessing, is the American male disinclination to dwell on feelings. Girls do that. Also that men work for money. Back then middle class women rarely did. Never got in my way, though. I've always been pretty oppositional. Mark At 03:53 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >Probably pretty close to alone. > >Bob Grumman wrote: >>One big irony in this discussion of poet as always "he" is that one >>thing that /kept/ me from becoming a poet before I turned 19 was >>the near universal belief that it was for girls only. I'm sure I'm >>not alone in this. >>--Bob >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 17:53:42 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 24 16:03:56 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908241453r5305c67cu34f32fd4c6693987@mail.gmail.com> I agree with this thread. It was sort of embarrassing to say you wrote poetry, Serious poetry in Italy up to a certain point in my history, was related to Dante, Petrarch, and just about it, you might have touched D'Annunzio with some decadents, but then it could have shown too much of you. Let alone painting, I think it was my genitrix who underlined in a severe tone that the painting I so much admired of the moonlight on the lake was by a criminal released from jail who could only starve by selling artwork that no one would employ him. They might have been right, I did not get anywhere in terms of social status, had I invested my time and intelligence in medicine, I would be much better off. Ipse dixit. Anny On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > My very literate parents thought that there was something mildly effeminate > about my interest in poetry. This was pretty universal, I think, in the US. > Universal enough for Ernie Kovacs to have a field day with. Remember Percy > Dovetonsils? Even now in a lot of circles I get that reaction when I say I'm > a poet. > > My father's last say on the subject was when I was about 45, to whit: "When > are you going to stop farting around with poetry?" I had graduated from > being intimidated, and I laughed. Led to the only good conversation we ever > had. > > Part of this, I'm guessing, is the American male disinclination to dwell on > feelings. Girls do that. Also that men work for money. Back then middle > class women rarely did. > > Never got in my way, though. I've always been pretty oppositional. > > Mark > > > At 03:53 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: > >> Probably pretty close to alone. >> >> Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> One big irony in this discussion of poet as always "he" is that one thing >>> that /kept/ me from becoming a poet before I turned 19 was the near >>> universal belief that it was for girls only. I'm sure I'm not alone in >>> this. >>> --Bob >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/0b03e4a9/attachment-0001.html From junction at earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 13:48:24 2009 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Aug 24 16:32:29 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com > References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4A91CC8F.2060703@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the US both racism and sexism survive, but both have been greatly diminished, certainly in more enlightened parts of the country. When I was a kid in NY there was virtually no racial mixing at any level. Now my local pub, which is as close to a neighborhood meeting place as we have, is multiethnic and harmoniously so, and mixed couples are hardly remarked. Diminutions in sexism are harder to see at a glance, but the statistics are persuasive. In regions where the economic basis of sexism has become obsolete a lot of hard work has gone a long way towards toppling the official sanctions supporting it in an amazingly short time as social change goes. Attitudes change more slowly than laws. An important sign of change in attitudes, strangely, is the increasing acceptance of intragender marriage--gender as a focus for bias has been scaled back. again, the statistics support this--something like 75% of those polled think same sex marriage is no biggie. That other 25% remains dangerous. No reason to be patient, but realistically in a couple of generations (in the US at least) the worst of sexist acting out will be as marginal as the Aryan Nation. Best, Mark >Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of >racism, my son said: ? "Interracial marriage." ? ? > >Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed >to rid us of sexism. ? Or has it helped to >ameliorate the situation? ? I suspect that it has. > >Best, > >Judy > >2009/8/24 Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> >On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Obododimma Oha ><obodooha@gmail.com> wrote: >Uche is right. Igbo is gender-neutral in the use >of pronominals. But this is not a deliberate or >ideological design to avoid offence. > > >Agreed.? Nor did I meant to imply this. > >? >The same language, nevertheless, contains >expressions that derogate womanhood. Even >proverbs -- which are treated as expressions of >ancient "wisdom" -- also contain >female-unfriendly meanings. One is not surprised >that this is so because the Igbo have a >patriarchal culture and men (that hold power in >the society) also seek to govern at the social semiotic level. > > >Languages always carry assorted bits and pieces >of the cultural timelines from which they >spring. They can and should change.? I do >believe that such changes are only realistic as >an aggregate of personal relationships, or through bloody revolution. > > >-- >Uche Ogbuji >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://uche.ogbuji.net >Founding Partner, Zepheira ? ? ? ? http://zepheira.com >Linked-in profile: >http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >Articles: >http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >Join me at Balisage: >* http://www.balisage.net/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 18:27:45 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Aug 24 16:37:57 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poets' Corner _ a new update Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908241527h346a88c8ucb7e872d562417e4@mail.gmail.com> Other men are unaware of what they do when they are awake just as they are forgetful of what they do when they are asleep. (DK22B1) *Heraclitus*** School and fall, summer is fading away in the heat and with a new update of the Poets? Corner for you to read: *Ric Carfagna* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=338 *Vince Gotera* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=341 *Max Richards* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=342 *John Moore Williams* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=343 *harry k stammer* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=344 *Peter Ganick* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=345 *Jennifer Hill* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=346 *Bonnie Roberts* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=347 *Donna Pecore* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=348 *Uche Ogbuji* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=349 *Paolo Dalponte* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=350 *Joanna Preston* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=351 *Dora Malech* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=352 *Rachel Loden* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=354 *Ed Baker* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=355 *New Poems by already featured Authors:* *Merchant Hoshang* Full Fathoms Five http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2963 *Tad Richards* Episodes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 *Barry Alpert* : http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=17 *?* T,O,U,C,H,I,N,G [via Paul Sharits & David Franks] *?* FILM ROBERT FRANK *?* TALK JAMES BENNING *?* THE PRESENT [via Robert Frank] *?* KINO-EYE [via Dziga Vertrov] *?* OF PETER FORGACS *?* LES PLAGES D?AGNES [via Agnes Varda] *?* WARMING UP [for Arturo Ripstein] *?* SPARROW [via Johnnie To] *?* EYE IN THE SKY [via Yau Na-hoi & Johnnie To] *Sharon Brogan* Talking to the Animals http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3033 *Halvard Johnson* Sonnet Whimsical Children http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3066 *Marton Koppany* Still Life http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3077 *Eugen Galasso* Poesiole e un racconto http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3091 *Helen Ruggieri* FOREIGN LANGUAGES http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3092 *Ruth Fainlight* DIXIT DOMINUS http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3123 *Edward Mycue* the duboce triangle and my life http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3125 *Under Reviews* *Soffi di Vertigine : Racconti e Poesie di Eugen Galasso ? nota critica di Anny Ballardini* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=262 *Ned Condini presentato da Leonardo Franchini* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=263 As usual the order follows the one by which I received the contributions, with my acknowledgment to all contributing Poets and Artists. You can access the Main Index here: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content my best wishes, Anny Ballardini -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090825/22ae32d4/attachment.html From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Aug 24 19:28:03 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Aug 24 17:38:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92F54B.9030400@opus40.org> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> <4A92F54B.9030400@opus40.org> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908241628l6bc17cf2kcebcd3b6dabf12fd@mail.gmail.com> Ole Mole, I believe that your male professor in 1958 was right. And I don't know what Annie Fitch is proposing. P'raps if I were to read every word? . . . . . . . .nah! Someone, doubtless, will translate. Best, Judy 2009/8/24 TheOldMole > > > Judy -- you're right, of course -- but Annie Finch has revived the term > "poetess" with a special meaning -- > http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/finch.html > > That lesson (the demeaning quality of "ess") was taught to me by a male > professor in 1958 -- ahead of his time. > > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/d339e7ac/attachment.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 24 22:37:43 2009 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Aug 24 19:48:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu><41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net><4A91CC8F.2060703@nut- n-but.net><7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com><4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4A934E77.5000701@nut-n-but.net> TheOldMole wrote: > > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that >>> I would find strange from a poet)? >> Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if >> the context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to >> convey information. >> >> > > Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make > it less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include > "informature." Coining a word where a new word seems needed for improved understanding of existence is different from redefining an old word not to improve understanding but to placate a hypersensitive special interest group. --Bad Bob From halvard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 23:38:46 2009 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Aug 24 21:48:51 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: <4A934E77.5000701@nut-n-but.net> References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> <4A934E77.5000701@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Just something for Bob G. to throw into his hopper: http://www.norddahl.org/english/2009/07/poetics-anonymous/ Hal "The days are wonderful and the nights are wonderful and the life is pleasant." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: > >> >> >> Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I >>>> would find strange from a poet)? >>>> >>> Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the >>> context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey >>> information. >>> >>> >>> >> Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make it >> less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include "informature." >> > Coining a word where a new word seems needed for improved understanding of > existence is different from redefining an old word not to improve > understanding but to placate a hypersensitive special interest group. > > --Bad Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090824/3998521f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 03:11:56 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 25 01:22:05 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> <4A934E77.5000701@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908250011u387c349foa912cde8448eb54e@mail.gmail.com> G G Great Anny On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Just something for Bob G. to throw into his hopper: > > http://www.norddahl.org/english/2009/07/poetics-anonymous/ > > Hal > > "The days are wonderful and the nights > are wonderful and the life is pleasant." > --Gertrude Stein > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> TheOldMole wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I >>>>> would find strange from a poet)? >>>>> >>>> Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the >>>> context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey >>>> information. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make it >>> less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include "informature." >>> >> Coining a word where a new word seems needed for improved understanding of >> existence is different from redefining an old word not to improve >> understanding but to placate a hypersensitive special interest group. >> >> --Bad Bob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090825/d4c1dd43/attachment.html From jfq at myuw.net Tue Aug 25 03:28:58 2009 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Tue Aug 25 01:39:13 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4A92E9B9.6010201@opus40.org> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <8CBF1A91E1752F1-ADC-D1@WEBMAIL-MY16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91544F.8080504@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a0908230849n713a99dcub39033c7cd1d6dd9@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b0908231000k74775dc9m52c9c0358bd9a2f0@mail.gmail.com> <98EF4675-AADA-48CE-90E7-C884584838AA@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908232338g509c3ed5n963e2ac263db95bf@mail.gmail.com> <3464DFAD-B8C9-4804-A54E-454BEF8FAAD9@myuw.net> <7db1d01b0908240136v17abfa0bj5270cee97c2cf383@mail.gmail.com> <4D24A319-90B1-4BA0-A213-AAD7093AE7A3@myuw.net> <4A92E9B9.6010201@opus40.org> Message-ID: My point isn't subjective neutrality, but rather the objective neutrality to be found in the fact that there are two words that are spelled "he" and pronounced that way. I thought i'd made that clear, but just in case i hadn't, that's my point. There's a definite, objective difference between using an exclusionary "he" where a writer or speakers statement uses the male pronoun in place of the gender neutral pronoun, and i would agree that such cases are sexism. My point is that the sexism inheres in the use and context, not in the word itself, which is factually neutral. On Aug 24, 2009, at 12:27 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > Jason -- you might consider that "he" is gender-neutral to you in > the same way that that white people can, and do, say "there's no > racism in America -- I certainly don't feel any." The danger is > when one makes oneself the benchmark, and one finds oneself saying, > as you are to Judy, "why should it bother you? It doesn't bother me." > > It's only neutral if it's neutral to both sides. > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote: >> Hi Judy, thanks for taking that in the spirt it was intended. I >> hope i do have daughters someday. My ten year old niece is one of >> the great loves and joys in my life and watching learn about and >> deal with the injustices visited upon her gender in our culture is >> something that has been a very enraging experience for me. Indeed, >> I do feel that non-sexist language is important. I just don't agree >> with you that the fact that "he" is the gender neutral singular >> pronoun is an example of sexist language. I'm of course open to >> being convinced otherwise, and since you clearly feel strongly that >> it is, I'd invite you to offer some argument in favor of that. At >> this point in the conversation, you have yet to do that. >> >> That having been said, you're right, getting the occasional loving >> whipping is a pleasant experience from time to time and does help >> us all keep some perspective. >> >> Although i'm normally not much of a bottom... >> >> -J >> On Aug 24, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Judy Prince wrote: >> >>> Hi, Jay, >>> Glad you've explained your view. We disagree. Your business. >>> And mine. >>> >>> If you have [or will have] daughters, I hope you'll see the >>> benefit to them >>> of non-sexist language. >>> >>> I enjoy debate, argumentation, persuasion---and giving/getting a >>> Very >>> Occasional gratuitous slap. You got the slap, and you gave back a >>> loving, >>> lingering wallop of your own. I expected it. I'm recovering. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> >>> 2009/8/24 Jason Quackenbush >>> >>>> Hi Judy, I was born in the the twentieth century. I'm surprised >>>> that you >>>> would ask as it's now the 21st century and nearly everyone of an >>>> age where >>>> they would be participating in a list like this would have been >>>> born in that >>>> century. Of course, you were talking down to me, weren't you, >>>> alluding to >>>> what you saw in my comments as something along the lines of what >>>> might be >>>> expected of a resident of the 19th century perhaps? This I take >>>> as something >>>> of an insult, as you clearly intend it to imply a certain >>>> ignorance or >>>> backwardsness inheres in what I said. As such, it was quite rude, >>>> and >>>> frankly you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Since no doubt you >>>> aren't in >>>> the least bit ashamed, please do not be surprised that I am >>>> taking the >>>> liberty in my response to be rude and insulting to you. >>>> >>>> To begin with, please allow me a moment of equal incredulity at >>>> the fact >>>> that in the 21st century there are still people who can get >>>> worked up about >>>> nonsense like this when it has been plain for at least a >>>> generation that the >>>> real problems of gender inequality lie very much elsewhere than >>>> quibbling >>>> over pronouns. >>>> >>>> the decades old red herring of the supposed sexism inherent in >>>> the fact >>>> that the male pronoun and the indefinite personal pronoun in >>>> english are >>>> homonyms is something that exists solely in the minds of a first >>>> world >>>> bourgeoisie more concerned with the appearance of a post sexist >>>> society than >>>> in actually achieving one. It is a fact that "he" when used to >>>> stand in for >>>> the name of a specific male person and "he" when used as a >>>> placeholder noun >>>> in a sentence where the subject has not been existentially >>>> instantiated are >>>> different words with different meanings indicated by the context >>>> in which >>>> the word is found. Once upon a time English had gender neutral >>>> pronouns. >>>> They really were not particularly useful, which is why they got >>>> replaced by >>>> "he" and "they." Myself, I don't really have a problem with the >>>> singular >>>> "they." It's a perfectly clear usage dating back several >>>> centuries, and the >>>> only people who really don't like it are tight asses who are >>>> under the >>>> mistaken impression that style guides have anything at all to do >>>> with the >>>> correct use of words in the language. Put simply, any and all >>>> prescriptive >>>> grammars are nothing more than an attempt of the ruling classes to >>>> delegitimize the speech and language of the proletariat as "less >>>> well >>>> educated." The argument against the use of "he" and "they" >>>> amounts to much >>>> the same thing as the social bias in favor of Received >>>> Pronunciation in the >>>> UK or the biases, often institutional ones, against the use of >>>> African >>>> American Vernacular English in "polite" company. >>>> >>>> Language cannot be prescribed. Language change can only occur >>>> slowly, over >>>> time, and without direction. Attempts to alter language to >>>> political ends, >>>> even laudable ones like the furthering of gender equality are as >>>> doomed to >>>> failure as they are ill-conceived. >>>> >>>> That having been said, the fact that folks like you choose to >>>> expend energy >>>> on it rather than working for real solutions to gender inequality >>>> because >>>> you cannot see past the bridge of your own bourgeois privilege >>>> and are >>>> therefore prone to become indignant and insulting when someone >>>> dares to call >>>> a spade a spade, no matter how much that person might agree with >>>> you >>>> ideologically on many many things, is annoying enough that in my >>>> own >>>> writing, I have adopted the strategy of alternating pronouns, >>>> this to keep >>>> both folks like you and the ignorant grammar nazis who have a >>>> problem with >>>> the singular they, from taking yet another opportunity to draw >>>> attention to >>>> themselves and pontificate in such a self-aggrandizing manner. I >>>> imagine it >>>> feels quite good to lord it over us ignorant yokels. I imagine >>>> that's the >>>> reason that language purists have always attempted to control the >>>> freedom of >>>> expression inherent in the multivalent intercoherence of dialect >>>> and accent. >>>> It's cheap and it's petty, and worst of all, it's bullying. But >>>> frankly, I >>>> hate talking about it so much that I will mostly tow the line >>>> just to avoid >>>> having to put up with criticism from people like you. >>>> >>>> Of course, this being a list about poetry and poetics, I'm >>>> somewhat more >>>> willing to talk about such issues here. But at this point I've >>>> said all I >>>> have to say on the matter, so don't expect another response from >>>> me unless >>>> you can find a way to be a bit more civil. >>>> >>>> Irritated Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Judy Prince wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, Jason. In which century were you conceived? >>>>> Incredulous Judy >>>>> >>>>> 2009/8/23 Jason Quackenbush >>>>> >>>>> seriously, screw the style manuals. And yes, the indefinite >>>>> pronoun in >>>>>> English is genderless despite the fact that it is a homonym for >>>>>> the male >>>>>> pronoun. However, I find that just because some people are >>>>>> ignorant of >>>>>> this >>>>>> fact and the confusion bothers them that in practice I >>>>>> generally try to >>>>>> switch between he and she by case in order to not allow such >>>>>> intellectually >>>>>> lazy people to be distracted from what I'm actually saying by >>>>>> such a >>>>>> petty >>>>>> non-issue. I think of it as compromis aux mesqin and leave >>>>>> people to >>>>>> argue >>>>>> about it if they want to. >>>>>> >>>>>> More importantly, given the conversation about real and perceived >>>>>> sexisms, >>>>>> is the fact that the original list of reasons to write poetry >>>>>> has left >>>>>> off >>>>>> the fact that many many men throughout the generations have >>>>>> written >>>>>> poetry >>>>>> in order to get laid. I don't know that any women have ever >>>>>> done that, >>>>>> but i >>>>>> did get asked out in sonnet form once, so i assume it's entirely >>>>>> possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> More importantly, my own reason for writing poetry is to engage >>>>>> with the >>>>>> English Language in the most direct way possible to try to find >>>>>> those >>>>>> areas >>>>>> where things are difficult or even impossible to say and to >>>>>> show the >>>>>> reductive lie of even the most expansive of linguists grammars >>>>>> that have >>>>>> grown out of all this chomskyan nonsense about universal >>>>>> biological >>>>>> linguistic principles and organic language processing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting. How was this dealt with in the past? Was it an >>>>>> issue even to >>>>>> >>>>>>> the standard heroines? Are there studies of "The impersonal >>>>>>> pronoun in >>>>>>> Jane >>>>>>> Austen, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In French one says "il faut," it's necessary, rather than "on >>>>>>> faut." >>>>>>> Very >>>>>>> little noise about this. Has Cixous mentioned it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's obviously a serious matter to some, and obviously not to >>>>>>> others. >>>>>>> God >>>>>>> knows there are a lot of serious matters. Nobody should ever >>>>>>> question >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't read style manuals unless I'm forced to. The Chicago >>>>>>> Manual >>>>>>> changes the rules every few years, presumably to boost sales. >>>>>>> Two >>>>>>> publishers >>>>>>> recently asked me to change "towards" to "toward," because, >>>>>>> according to >>>>>>> said manual, the s is English and we don't do that here. >>>>>>> Somebody must >>>>>>> actually think that's true. Me, I use each promiscuously-- >>>>>>> sometimes I >>>>>>> need a >>>>>>> sibilant at the end, sometimes not, so I told both publishers >>>>>>> to can it, >>>>>>> they were messing with the tools of my trade. Are there any >>>>>>> genderless >>>>>>> alternatives that don't limit the range of possibility? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At 01:00 PM 8/23/2009, you wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark,? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is a serious issue, in my opinion. ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I read "he" that's supposed to apply to both genders, I >>>>>>>> do not >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> as if it applies to me or any female. ? I read "man"----not >>>>>>>> "woman". ? >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> feel excluded. ? This is an even more important issue for >>>>>>>> young females >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> need to identify with females, who need female role models. ? >>>>>>>> If they >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> "he", they will 'see' males in the contexts, not females---not >>>>>>>> themselves. ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Style manuals and publishing companies, in the late 1960s and >>>>>>>> after, >>>>>>>> guidelined non-sexist ways to write, giving plenty of examples, >>>>>>>> dealing, >>>>>>>> among other situations, with the universal "he". ? These >>>>>>>> guidelines >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been used effectively up to the present time. ? Bob's using >>>>>>>> "he" for >>>>>>>> both >>>>>>>> genders reads as if it were written 40 years ago [perhaps it >>>>>>>> was, and >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> forgot to update it]. ? I'm surprised I'm the only one who >>>>>>>> noticed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When most males feel comfortable with "she" representing them >>>>>>>> as well >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> females, then we'll have achieved a gender-neutral world. ? >>>>>>>> Until then, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> reject the use of "he" to represent me and all females. ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Judy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2009/8/23 Mark Weiss < >>>>>>>> junction@earthlink.net> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Judy: The indefinite pronoun in English is genderless, despite >>>>>>>> appearances. I usually use the other alternative, "one," or >>>>>>>> in informal >>>>>>>> contexts "he/she" or "she/he," but you've inspired me to give >>>>>>>> them a >>>>>>>> rest >>>>>>>> for the moment. If all of the serious gendered injustices >>>>>>>> were to >>>>>>>> disappear >>>>>>>> I think no one would worry about this. I guess the theory is >>>>>>>> that the >>>>>>>> persistence of gendered usage somehow accustoms us all to >>>>>>>> inequalities. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> doubt this is true. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Aug 25 05:12:49 2009 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Aug 25 03:22:53 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <41107201-D8DE-4AE3-AADA-FADA295B34EE@verizon.net> <7db1d01b0908232336p296a7925nd525a533c12cfd3b@mail.gmail.com> <4A929C05.4080300@nut-n-but.net> <4A92AF21.1020802@nut-n-but.net> <4A92F274.7080601@opus40.org> <4A934E77.5000701@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <7db1d01b0908250212v657d5a46q13d55532f409e6b1@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Hal. My comment sent to nordahl's blog after reading the page you url'ed and the homepage: "I've just read some of your poetry and liked one line about the swastika in somebody's nazi soup. All the rest strikes me as happily as receiving "GROW YOUR PENIS 3 INCHES LONGER AND THICKER" spam. I don't have a penis, so haven't the yearning to grow it longer and thicker; nevertheless, spamfolk, most of their messages eliminated by googlemail's security force, try to sell me penis things. On balance, I suppose, the irrelevance of your poetry to more than half the world [females] is no BIG deal compared to the relevance of bothersome spam. Enjoy your new baby; he will alter your life forever. Do what your wife tells you, do far more than what you think is your share of housekeeping and childrearing 'tasks', and take your wife out for a really awesome restaurant meal at least once a week. Grampa will babysit." Best, Judy 2009/8/24 Halvard Johnson > Just something for Bob G. to throw into his hopper: > > http://www.norddahl.org/english/2009/07/poetics-anonymous/ > > Hal > > "The days are wonderful and the nights > are wonderful and the life is pleasant." > --Gertrude Stein > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> TheOldMole wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Or do you dislike it because it might cause confusion (a reason that I >>>>> would find strange from a poet)? >>>>> >>>> Strange maybe if the context were a poem, not so strange, I feel, if the >>>> context is what I call informature--verbal expression intended to convey >>>> information. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Strange that someone would not feel the need to bend language to make it >>> less sexist, but would feel the need to bend it to include "informature." >>> >> Coining a word where a new word seems needed for improved understanding of >> existence is different from redefining an old word not to improve >> understanding but to placate a hypersensitive special interest group. >> >> --Bad Bob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090825/fa988d15/attachment.html From obodooha at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 05:14:06 2009 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Tue Aug 25 03:24:15 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reasoning the Need In-Reply-To: References: <200908231337.n7NDb0nA003980@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <7db1d01b0908241027p5028ca3m5fc59b634b9d57f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This thread is a thread is a thread .... Thanks to all for providing me with the inspiration to write a crazy piece called "Sexistence." Will share it soon. -- Obododimma. On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Shedding discrimination just ain't gonna happen. There will always be > "us" and there will always be "others." > > Hal > > "The days are wonderful and the nights > are wonderful and the life is pleasant." > --Gertrude Stein > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Judy Prince < >> jbalizsprince@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Uche, I've hugely enjoyed this entire thread, am pleased to hear so many >>> folks' opinions. >>> I laughed out loud when you said: "...the entire bloody English language >>> offends and oppresses me..." It resonated. My first understandings of >>> sexism came from seeing and hearing the racisms all around me [I'm white, >>> husband black, son black, neighbours black] in USAmerica, witnessing the >>> barely-hidden disgust of both white and black people for black people. I >>> read all I could on racism, noting well, probably for the sake of my son, >>> how blacks internalised the racism, defeating themselves continuously, >>> needing and getting so many heroes [female and male] to inspire and >>> invigorate them for The Constant Fight. >>> >>> Only then did I recognise sexism with its similar mechanisms. It's not >>> something one forgets easily, if ever. I recall one African-American >>> essayist [unfortunately I've forgotten his name] saying that racism is like >>> the flu: If everybody's got the symptoms, it doesn't seem like a sickness. >>> >>> Recently, my daughter-in-law Janet was reading one of the books my son >>> had read as a child. With total delight, she read to their twin 5 year old >>> sons, and I remembered that I'd printed a beginning "s" to every Universal >>> "he". She said it made a big difference to her when she saw and heard the >>> "she", rather than "he". She appreciated the change. I wonder how her sons >>> responded to it. >>> >>> You and Obododimma mention Igbo's gender-neutral pronouns, and I've drawn >>> attention to a similar thing in Beijing Chinese. These and other cultures >>> have, as you and Obododimma have pointed out as well, classic sexist >>> stories, despite the gender-neutral pronouns. Oh, I would like, though, >>> such a gender-neutral pronoun in English! >>> >>> Failing that, my own preference is what Hal's been saying: use plurals. >>> But, as others have noted, that doesn't de-sexist every situation. Re >>> 'poet' and 'poetess', I know no women who wish to be called 'poetess', as I >>> know no women who wish to be called 'actress' rather than 'actor'. >>> >>> Once when I asked how we'd ever get rid of racism, my son said: >>> "Interracial marriage." >>> >> >> He right that it's our best chance. I suppose that might be >> self-congratulatory (my wife is white. Of course I never set out to marry a >> white woman.) >> >> But really, until humans change very fundamentally, shedding the >> deep-seated tendency towards discrimination (which was essential to safety >> and survival in the overwhelming majority of our timeline) we will always >> find ways to divide ourselves into groups, and there will always be bigotry >> that obtains therefrom. >> >> Doesn't mean people should stop trying to stamp it out. Far from it. >> Fighting to be better than we are, regardless of how difficult a fight, is >> essential to humanity. >> >> Oh dear, that's all getting a bit treacly. I'll rather leave off at that >> point. >> >> >> Strange that intergender marriage hasn't seemed to rid us of sexism. Or >>> has it helped to ameliorate the situation? I suspect that it has. >>> >> >> This sent me into fits of wry laughter. I do believe that as women's >> emancipation progresses, the marriage of ambitious, self-possessed women to >> men with perhaps too much of a "traditional" mindset is a valuable force for >> change. >> >> >> -- >> Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net >> Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com >> Linked-in profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji >> Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ >> Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji >> Join me at Balisage: >> * http://www.balisage.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090825/eae58edc/attachment.html From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 08:52:32 2009 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Aug 25 07:02:39 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70908241453r5305c67cu34f32fd4c6693987@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A918703.6090002@opus40.org> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70908241453r5305c67cu34f32fd4c6693987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0908250552i4789c684x80fe4f6f9a22462a@mail.gmail.com> The usual answer I get when I confess that I am a poet: "Yes, but what do you really write?" Jeff Newberry On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I agree with this thread. It was sort of embarrassing to say you wrote > poetry, Serious poetry in Italy up to a certain point in my history, was > related to Dante, Petrarch, and just about it, you might have touched > D'Annunzio with some decadents, but then it could have shown too much of > you. Let alone painting, I think it was my genitrix who underlined in a > severe tone that the painting I so much admired of the moonlight on the lake > was by a criminal released from jail who could only starve by selling > artwork that no one would employ him. > They might have been right, I did not get anywhere in terms of social > status, had I invested my time and intelligence in medicine, I would be much > better off. Ipse dixit. > > Anny > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> My very literate parents thought that there was something mildly >> effeminate about my interest in poetry. This was pretty universal, I think, >> in the US. Universal enough for Ernie Kovacs to have a field day with. >> Remember Percy Dovetonsils? Even now in a lot of circles I get that reaction >> when I say I'm a poet. >> >> My father's last say on the subject was when I was about 45, to whit: >> "When are you going to stop farting around with poetry?" I had graduated >> from being intimidated, and I laughed. Led to the only good conversation we >> ever had. >> >> Part of this, I'm guessing, is the American male disinclination to dwell >> on feelings. Girls do that. Also that men work for money. Back then middle >> class women rarely did. >> >> Never got in my way, though. I've always been pretty oppositional. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 03:53 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote: >> >>> Probably pretty close to alone. >>> >>> Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> One big irony in this discussion of poet as always "he" is that one >>>> thing that /kept/ me from becoming a poet before I turned 19 was the near >>>> universal belief that it was for girls only. I'm sure I'm not alone in >>>> this. >>>> --Bob >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Tad Richards >>> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >>> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >>> >>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20090825/7290b910/attachment.html From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 09:10:58 2009 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Aug 25 07:21:03 2009 Subject: [New-Poetry] A list of Reasons People Compose Poetry In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0908250552i4789c684x80fe4f6f9a22462a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CBF0B9E9A385F6-FFC-385B@webmail-de16.sysops.aol.com> <4A91E46C.2080706@opus40.org> <4A928868.30807@nut-n-but.net> <4A92A994.2060304@nut-n-but.net> <4A92EFC6.2030802@opus40.org> <4b65c2d70908241453r5305c67cu34f32fd4c6693987@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a0908250552i4789c684x80fe4f6f9a22462a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d70908250610n1800277am34685194a91b0d86@mail.gmail.com> funny! On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > The usual answer I get when I confess that I am a poet: > > "Yes, but what do you really write?" > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I agree with this thread. It was sort of embarrassing to say you wrote >> poetry, Serious poetry in Italy up to a certain point in my history, was >> related to Dante, Petrarch, and just about it, you might have touched >> D'Annunzio with some decadents, but then it could have shown too much of >> you. Let alone painting, I think it was my genitrix who underlined in a >> severe tone that the painting I so much admired of the moonlight on the lake >> was by a criminal released from jail who could only starve by selling >> artwork that no one would employ him. >> They might have been right, I did not get anywhere in terms of social >> status, had I invested my time and intelligence in medicine, I would be much >> better off. Ipse dixit. >> >> Anny >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>> My very literate parents thought that there was something mildly >>>