[New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 49, Issue 36
David Baratier
editor at pavementsaw.org
Mon Jul 28 14:57:46 EDT 2008
But would you call them anti-poetry?
>Basinski is one of my Major Poets, and I love these three things of
>his. I'm not sure I'd call them poems, though.
>--Bob G.
Be well
David Baratier, Editor
Pavement Saw Press
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Montpelier OH 43543
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--- On Mon, 7/28/08, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> wrote:
> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 49, Issue 36
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 4:00 PM
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Visual poetry (Anny Ballardini)
> 2. Re: Visual poetry (Bob Grumman)
> 3. Re: Re: a dead ear for scansion (JforJames at aol.com)
> 4. Re: Re: a dead ear for scansion (Robin Hamilton)
> 5. Re: Re: a dead ear for scansion (Judy Prince)
> 6. Re: Re: a dead ear for scansion (David Bircumshaw)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:27:04 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini"
> <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual poetry
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
> & Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <C10F8A4BF8814455A30D8ABB9AB614B1 at AnnyPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Interesting work, thanks for the link.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Graham
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:38 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual poetry
>
>
> Featured at *Anti-*
>
>
> http://anti-poetry.com/anti/basinskimi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz
>
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:28:45 -0500
> From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual poetry
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
> & Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <488D04AD.2050702 at nut-n-but.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=ISO-8859-1;format=flowed
>
> Basinski is one of my Major Poets, and I love these three
> things of
> his. I'm not sure I'd call them poems, though.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:39:15 EDT
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: a dead ear for scansion
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <cc4.373861a1.35be6123 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> In a message dated 7/26/2008 6:57:31 PM Eastern Daylight
> Time,
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
>
> Mike Tyson had a way: you find someone who has
> an ear and then you bite it off.
>
>
>
> Van Gogh did in his one good one. So it goes.
>
>
>
>
> **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring.
> Sign up for
> FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:55:18 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton"
> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: a dead ear for scansion
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
> & Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <023701c8f054$fd4cd850$4101a8c0 at CoreDuo>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> All varieties of English are isochronic between stresses --
> this is probably the fundamental linguistic observation to
> be made, and over-rides the differences between the five
> possible metrical systems (stress, syllable-accent,
> qualitative, syllabic, dipodic, and "free verse").
>
> [Yes, I know that counts six -- there's
> a deliberate elide around "free verse".]
>
> Syllable-accent metrics has a(n) (un)happy history from
> roughly 1500 (earlier, if you count Chaucer, or The Owl and
> the Nightingale) to 1900.
>
> [dave cherry-picked The Shakespearean
> Moment, but there's a before-and-after to this.]
>
> Metrical stress (ictus) is contrastive rather than
> absolute, which is why I'd go +much+ further than Sam
> Gwynn in rejecting anything other than a two-stress notation
> for describing metrical patterns (rather than the rhythm) of
> a poem.
>
> Rhythm (which is what finally matters) in syllable-accent
> metrics is produced by the tension between natural speech
> stress and the abstract metrical pattern.
>
> There will tend to be a greater agreement over the metre of
> a poem than its rhythm.
>
> Or perhaps better to say, different arguments will result
> when we discuss the (possible) metre(s) of a poem as against
> its rhythms.
>
> Just some thoughts ...
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:58:28 -0400
> From: "Judy Prince"
> <jbalizsprince at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: a dead ear for scansion
> To: "Robin Hamilton"
> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>, "NewPoetry:
> Contemporary Poetry News &, Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <7db1d01b0807271958s6d4cb66er32efc144da6082dc at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Ahem. Dr. Hamilton, I'd ask you to translate your
> English into English, but
> then where'd the fun be?!
> So you're saying that what we note down on paper in any
> of several ways to
> show a stressed (let's call it a "lunge" of
> "aggressive") word-bit or an
> unstressed ("limp" or "passive") bit
> would be called Metre.
>
> And what we speak or hear would be called Rhythm.
>
> What Sam and you are saying is that The Other Stuff (such
> as sustained sound
> and pitch) that isn't noted in anybody's metrical
> system (including the Judy
> Scansion system), is an important element in sussing the
> wholeness - the
> musicality - of poetry.
>
> Who could not agree with that?!
>
> Good thing you revised your nearly-last thought. It leads
> me to a related
> idea that's simmered for a few days with the weather.
>
> Those unrecorded bits [though music notation _does_ record
> much of what
> we're not noting in our metrical systems for language]
> such as sustained
> sound and pitch, add essential dimension to what we hear.
> Let me explain by
> relating it to Chinese. One of only four "tones"
> is used for each
> "syllable" in Chinese. If you say "ma"
> in the "wrong" tone, it will mean
> something entirely different than if you said
> "ma" in the "right" tone---the
> difference between a horse and a word that says
> "?" (i.e., marks the
> preceding words as a question). That's the easy part
> of Chinese. Linking
> several syllables, properly toned, together is the trickier
> part for a
> non-Asian-language speaker. Here's the part that
> further relates to
> musicality, the whole enchilada of poetry's
> "sound": Those four tones have
> a slightly-more-complex-than-just-stressed aspect. They
> sound, at times,
> like Chinese instruments from gongs to pipas and gujengs.
> The first tone is
> high and flat; second is lower and rising; third is still
> lower and rising;
> the fourth descends sharply from on high like (forgive me,
> mom) saying
> "Sh-t!" ("Sh-te" in Scottish). Several
> simple systems are used to represent
> the four tones. Westerners' systems for representing
> English metre are
> one-dimensional, as we've noted. Easterners'
> systems don't need to be
> complex because there're fewer
> "constellations" of separate tones (just
> four, in Chinese). I believe the Vietnamese language has
> many more tones
> than the Chinese, and I'd be interested to hear from
> someone who could
> compare it with Chinese and English.
>
> Judy
>
>
> 2008/7/27 Robin Hamilton
> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>
> > All varieties of English are isochronic between
> stresses -- this is
> > probably the fundamental linguistic observation to be
> made, and over-rides
> > the differences between the five possible metrical
> systems (stress,
> > syllable-accent, qualitative, syllabic, dipodic, and
> "free verse").
> >
> > [Yes, I know that counts six --
> there's a deliberate elide
> > around "free verse".]
> >
> > Syllable-accent metrics has a(n) (un)happy history
> from roughly 1500
> > (earlier, if you count Chaucer, or The Owl and the
> Nightingale) to 1900.
> >
> > [dave cherry-picked The Shakespearean
> Moment, but there's a
> > before-and-after to this.]
> >
> > Metrical stress (ictus) is contrastive rather than
> absolute, which is why
> > I'd go +much+ further than Sam Gwynn in rejecting
> anything other than a
> > two-stress notation for describing metrical patterns
> (rather than the
> > rhythm) of a poem.
> >
> > Rhythm (which is what finally matters) in
> syllable-accent metrics is
> > produced by the tension between natural speech stress
> and the abstract
> > metrical pattern.
> >
> > There will tend to be a greater agreement over the
> metre of a poem than its
> > rhythm.
> >
> > Or perhaps better to say, different arguments will
> result when we discuss
> > the (possible) metre(s) of a poem as against its
> rhythms.
> >
> > Just some thoughts ...
> >
> > Robin Hamilton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:37:25 +0100
> From: David Bircumshaw
> <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: a dead ear for scansion
> To: Robin Hamilton
> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>, "NewPoetry:
> Contemporary Poetry News & Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <488DA165.9060101 at ntlworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> > [dave cherry-picked The Shakespearean Moment, but
> there's a
> > before-and-after to this.]
> Bugger, Hamilton, you caught me out there!
>
> Anyhow, I'm in mourning, as the Grand Pier at
> Weston-super-Mare has gone
> up in flames. Much of my childhood has been incinerated
> with that. Boo-hoo.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> --
>
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides
> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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