[New-Poetry] terror dactyls

[Jason Quackenbush]

My Favorite sonnets are ted berrigans "the sonnets" plus "Nothing in  
that drawer," and these don't fit yer definition Bob. I do think  
they're recognizable as sonnets however, despite being free verse in  
Berrigan and repetitiveness of Nothing in that Drawer. but then,  
sonnet is a universal, and I think the correct understanding of the  
problem of universals is not to take it as given that everything can  
be reduced to an essential set of elements. what is and is not a  
sonnet is ultimately going to be determined by what is and is not  
called a sonnet. the same goes for haiku. Gurga and Trumbull and the  
rest of the english language/american haiku crowd can talk til  
they're blue in the face about kigo and cutting words and  
juxtaposition of images and what not, but it's not going to change  
the fact that the cat is out of the bag and like it or not, these days:

dislike this haiku
formula but I write this
as illustration

is a haiku. and i think a decent argument that:
this
here
is
a
real
sonnet
whether
it's

good
remains
very much

an
open
question

is a sonnet can also be made.
On Apr 4, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>
> Alexander Dickow wrote:
>> Bob Grumman wrote:
>> "dactyl goes against the lyrical seriousness
>>  I consider one of a sonnet's essentials"
>>
>> That seems odd to me, Bob, since the dactyl's "proper
>> place" has historically been the "highest" genre of
>> all (to some), the epic. They can be used quite
>> forcefully even in English, and seem to me to suit
>> "lyric seriousness" perfectly well. But then, I'm
>> profoundly, almost viscerally opposed to the notion
>> that metrical forms "naturally" correspond to any
>> stylistic register -- especially that of "natural
>> breath" or "natural speech" (besides, if you really
>> want to imitate whatever you think is "natural
>> speech", why not use non-accentual syllabic rhythms,
>> which can satisfy the taste for symmetry without the
>> thoroughly artificial constraints of the iamb, or any
>> regular foot for that matter? I love syllabics). The
>> assertion that anything is "natural" just makes every
>> critical bone in my body ache....
>> With all due respect....
>> Amicalement,
>> Alex
>>
>
> As I said, Alex, it's subjective.  But I'm only being prescriptive  
> about what should count as a sonnet, not about how poems should be  
> composed.   And giving an opinion about the size of common  
> reflective thought compared with the size of a sonnet.  Would it be  
> okay to call a two-hundred-line iambic pentameter poem a "sonnet?"   
> If not, why not?
>
> To answer quickly because I've got all kinds of things goin' on here.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>
>
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