[New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk

Wed Jun 27 17:34:28 EDT 2007

Respectfully, though there is a performance tradition within which he can be
seen, notably including Jackson MacLow, his early poems show the influence
of the objectivists, Stein, Pound and Williams, I think. Again, willing to
be persuaded otherwise.

And I put Pound and Williams in this tradition in that they both affect a
conversational/epistolary context, most clearly in their poems of the
forties and later, even reaching into works that seem improvised (_Pisan
Cantos_ and "Desert Music"), falling into the Romantic belief that "mind is
shapely," as Ginsberg said. E.g., the 81st Canto.

But I'm much more certain of placing late Pound and Williams in this line
than Antin.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of barry seiler
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:47 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk

I don't want to get too fussy, but the Antin of the talk poems probably 
doesn't belong on this list. He's coming more from a "oral" tradition. I 
think of him as a Borscht Beltcomic, who is very very educated. He 
improvises his lectures in front of an audience then transcribes them 
through some kind of poetry voodoo.
Barry Seiler

>From: "Skip Fox" <skip at louisiana.edu>
>Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views'" 
><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk
>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:34:52 -0500
>
>And I would like to know what is different in Koch, O'Hara, Mayer, Antin 
>and
>Equi than in Goldbarth, who bores me? But I don't even think of Goldbarth
>when I thought of slacker poetry, yet he has the same lilting defeatism, a
>sense that the world in minimal, the exhausted feel of one who has found
>nothing (maybe without looking very hard) and has nothing very much to say
>in the face of it. Tired. End of century. Nerf existentialism. "By the gate
>now, the moss has grown, the different mosses, / Too deep to clear them
>away" Pound translates Li Po providing precisely the formula of this state
>in a young woman (but she had cause! She was lonely and lost in love). Why
>_do_ anything, even write, I seem to hear them ask beneath their lines. I'd
>rather think that the relaxations of Lowell (via a misreading of Williams)
>lead to this, since I believe the discursive force that comes through Pound
>or Williams or Olson through O'Hara et al., does not sprawl. Is that a
>viable difference? The shrug and self-deprecating wit in a loosely held 
>line
>compared to an energetic discovery of what there is to know, realize, think
>about, feel, write and read, in a unique but recognizably talkative line?
>
>
>
>That's my initial impression, but I'm open to persuasion.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:22 PM
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk
>
>
>
>Skip,
>Your question of structure is interesting, since these talk poems seem
>driven almost solely by style. They affect, or really do have, that quality
>referred to in painting as 'alla prima'. Meaning done in one sitting, and
>not slowly building up layers of paint over time (which might be roughly
>equivalent to structuring the paint). Leading to a more gestural and
>generally less formal outcome. It would be interesting to know if certain
>talk poets 'work over' their pieces, push them through successive drafts
>until they get down to that exact degree of insouciance or nonchanlance
>they're looking for. Whether they give themselves some guidelines like 'No
>more than three lines before an abrupt shift in
>tone/scene/subject/time/diction, etc. Do they go off their Ritalin for a 
>few
>days before sitting down to write? (OK,that last question was totally
>uncalled for, I know.) More seriously, O'Hara and Koch, would be exempt 
>from
>this question, but how much of the talk poetry is a product of the
>channel-surfing age, the drive-thru and the drive-by culture? Is this hip
>and uptempo nihilism?
>
>Given the number of poets doing the 'ultra talk' poem, one has got to think
>there is some necessary one-up-(wo)manship at play: How much of a fever
>pitch can I work myself up to before people begin to visualize me as 
>foaming
>at the mouth. How may swirls of allusion can I work in before all the 
>colors
>mix to muddy brown, etc. Can the range of this kind of poetry broaden &
>deepen, or is the necessary motion only up, up, up...?
>Finnegan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Skip Fox skip at louisiana.edu
>
>
>
>I would like to add to his question, in the same spirit I think he asked
>his. Mine (finally) is there some like what Abrams wrote about in the
>Romantic ode which might give us as much access to this work as he 
>increased
>mine into the Romantic poets? Is there a structure that reflects a world
>view? (I might not like: "Its desultory drift reflects an existential
>ennui,"  but I'd understand it and start looking for that . . . and if it
>did it well . . . great. I might even find new appreciation.)
>
>
>
>It needn't be just structure (though this is a telling place to look). I'm
>merely looking for a key. I've been in workshops where students wrote what 
>I
>identity as this and I try to help them as best as I can, but I'd probably
>be more effective if I knew some of the main artistic principles or
>underlying thought.
>
>
>
>(Or will we have to buy the book of essays? . . . Actually whetting our
>tastes with a rationale or three might send more of us _to_ the book 
>instead
>of simply replacing its usefulness.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
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