From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul  1 13:15:58 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:15:58 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: R: [New-Poetry] Milosz
Message-ID: <11382c81926.anny.ballardini@tin.it>

It seems I was called for this:
To glorify things just because they 
are.

Exhilarating!
Happy July, my favorite month,
Anny

----Messaggio 
originale----
Da: grahamd at ripon.edu
Data: 30-giu-2007 4.31 PM
A: 
"NewPoetry &amp; Views"<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Ogg: [New-Poetry] 
Milosz

On his birthday, a poem.


BLACKSMITH SHOP


I liked the 
bellows operated by rope.
A hand or foot pedal--I don?t remember which.
But that blowing, and the blazing of the fire!
And a piece of iron in 
the fire, held there by tongs,
Red, softened for the anvil,
Beaten with 
the hammer, bent into a horseshoe,
Thrown in a bucket of water, sizzle, 
steam.

And horses hitched to be shod,
Tossing their manes; and in the 
grass by the river
Plowshares, sledge runners, harrows waiting for 
repair

At the entrance, my bare feet on the dirt floor,
Here, gusts of 
heat; at my back, white clouds.
I stare and stare.  It seems I was 
called for this:
To glorify things just because they are.

       --
Czeslaw Milosz, trans. Someone.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry 
Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-
poetry







From jeff.newberry  Sun Jul  1 20:31:53 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 20:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>

" . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the
inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an
engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and
uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply
defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to
elemental awe and wonder."

--Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


Jeff Newberry

-- 

"THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From bobgrumman  Sun Jul  1 22:59:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 21:59:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."

  --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


  Jeff Newberry

  As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.

  --Bob Grumman
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From Opus40-01  Sun Jul  1 23:19:24 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:19:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>

Keats kinda said the same thing.

Jeff Newberry wrote:
> " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of 
> mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be 
> taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to 
> live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  
> Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I 
> think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
>
> --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 
> 2007
>
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
>
> "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul  2 05:57:25 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:57:25 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: R: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
Message-ID: <113865cf42d.anny.ballardini@tin.it>


as if anyone could live without doubts or without being uncertain,

Da: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
Data: 2-lug-2007 4.59 AM


  " . . . one 
of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the 
inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as 
an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt 
and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is 
deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time 
we return to elemental awe and wonder."

  --Major Jackson, "Does 
Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


  Jeff Newberry

  As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter 
certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.

  --Bob 
Grumman_______________________________________________




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 08:30:32 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:30:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020530i7344ebdfvdee4e29a2ca1cc8@mail.gmail.com>

You don't live in doubt and uncertainty?  Do tell.  Do tell.

As far as I (a mere mortal) am concerned, doubt and uncertainty are the only
certainties.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/1/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery,
> the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an
> engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and
> uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply
> defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to
> elemental awe and wonder."
>
> --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January
> 2007
>
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter
> certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.
>
> --Bob Grumman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 08:31:30 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:31:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>

It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole.  I've been reading through his
letters.  I'll try to track down the passage you reference.  I'm pretty sure
that I know what you're talking about.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/1/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> Keats kinda said the same thing.
>
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
> >
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January
> > 2007
> >
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > --
> >
> > "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
> >
> > http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 10:06:05 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:06:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.  But, remember, Keats was very young.  

And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three hours to dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study for fear it may be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will devour me.  On the other hand, who knows whether being devoured is bad or not.  Or whether it would really be me who is being devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to these possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.

--Bob
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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 09:17:32 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:17:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>

It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.

*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what 
quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and 
which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, 
that is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, 
doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, 
for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from 
the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content 
with half-knowledge. *

The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably 
have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow 
ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in 
which there are three blackbirds.

I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats 
saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's 
criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior 
quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute 
an */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.


Jeff Newberry wrote:
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole.  I've been reading through 
> his letters.  I'll try to track down the passage you reference.  I'm 
> pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org 
> <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org>> wrote:
>
>     Keats kinda said the same thing.
>
>     Jeff Newberry wrote:
>     > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
>     > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be
>     > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
>     > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
>     > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
>     > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
>     >
>     > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,
>     January
>     > 2007
>     >
>     >
>     > Jeff Newberry
>     >
>     > --
>     >
>     > "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
>     >
>     > http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > New-Poetry mailing list
>     > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >
>
>     --
>     Tad Richards
>     http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>     http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ <http://opusforty.blogspot.com/>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 09:31:54 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:31:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020631y6776ee65vecde7856c7894ea0@mail.gmail.com>

Not being snarky here--I think I see your point.

I'll ruminate & marinate in your ideas.

Thanks,

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>  The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.  But,
> remember, Keats was very young.
>
> And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three hours to
> dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study for fear it may
> be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will devour me.  On the other
> hand, who knows whether being devoured is bad or not.  Or whether it would
> really be me who is being devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to
> these possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl
> with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 09:46:21 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:46:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <F0D5C610-CEED-4C23-80E1-6906E2DFF0CD@earthlink.net>

Oh, Keats was always very young.

Hal

"Leisure is necessary to any form of civilization
  higher than that of ants, apes, Kipling and his
  cousin Stan Baldwin."
                            --Ezra Pound

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.   
> But, remember, Keats was very young.
>
> And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three  
> hours to dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study  
> for fear it may be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will  
> devour me.  On the other hand, who knows whether being devoured is  
> bad or not.  Or whether it would really be me who is being  
> devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to these  
> possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl  
> with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.
>
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 10:07:00 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:07:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have some "certainty" in their saying.
He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with?unceartainty 
and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to me that's?much the fashion
of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't want to avoid a?poetry?strove, 
at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding the stil-point amid the welter.

It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to?shed light, and more?generally, to show cleary.
So we 'illumine' what is?obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
Jackson seems to veer off at?end this quote with almost a nod to someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return, e.g.).

No answers here...only observations.
Finnegan



It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.?
?
*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *?
?
The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.?
?
I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.?
?
Jeff Newberry wrote:?
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.?
>?
> Jeff Newberry?
>?
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org>> wrote:?
>?
> Keats kinda said the same thing.?
>?
> Jeff Newberry wrote:?
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of?
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be?
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to?
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.?
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I?
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."?
> >?
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,?
> January?
> > 2007?



________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 10:14:16 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:14:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Declaring your doubt
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>

On Keats, uncertainty, etc., here's a passage from a recent essay by  
David Kirby, the whole of which I also recommend:

"Indeed, part of a great poem will be its enduring mystery. Keats  
interrogates his urn mercilessly: Who are these figures depicted on  
you? Are they human or divine? Where are they going? What are they  
doing? He gets an answer???Beauty is truth, truth beauty.?? Yet it?s  
only a partial answer, for, as the urn says, ??that is all / Ye know  
on earth, and all ye need to know.?? In other words, shut up: I, the  
urn, will tell you earthlings what you know already, and the rest  
you?ll find out later, if at all.

There?s a stack of recent poetry books by my desk. Almost at random,  
they declare their doubt. In some cases, the titles themselves give  
away the author?s air of uncertainty: There?s Incomplete Knowledge by  
Jeffrey Harrison, as well as John Gallaher?s The Little Book of  
Guesses. ?Yesterday for you / I wrote a poem so full / of lies it  
woke me?, writes Matthew Zapruder in The Pajamist, and the first line  
of Paisley Rekdal?s ?The Invention of the Kaleidoscope? says simply,  
?I am going to fail.?

Yet certainty and doubt are two sides of the same coin, and each of  
these collections seems to begin in shadow just so it can work its  
way into the light. If there?s a single quality common to all good  
poems, it?s that each takes the reader on the full roller coaster  
ride of idea and emotion, up the peaks and down the valleys. It then  
drops the reader off at the starting point again, the same person  
still, though changed."
--David Kirby.  "Why, Poetry?"  The American Interest Online.  July/ 
August 2007.
http://the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=300&MId=14





========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:07 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes  
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero  
> sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It  
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I  
> wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of  
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.

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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 10:21:34 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:21:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Declaring your doubt
In-Reply-To: <DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <AC1BFBC0-54D9-4809-8BCA-56748FA7486F@earthlink.net>

Oh, I don't know, David. Well . . . maybe.

Hal

"I don't know what music is."
   		--Ludvig van Beethoven

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Graham wrote:

> On Keats, uncertainty, etc., here's a passage from a recent essay  
> by David Kirby, the whole of which I also recommend:
>
> "Indeed, part of a great poem will be its enduring mystery. Keats  
> interrogates his urn mercilessly: Who are these figures depicted on  
> you? Are they human or divine? Where are they going? What are they  
> doing? He gets an answer???Beauty is truth, truth beauty.?? Yet  
> it?s only a partial answer, for, as the urn says, ??that is all /  
> Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.?? In other words, shut  
> up: I, the urn, will tell you earthlings what you know already, and  
> the rest you?ll find out later, if at all.
>
> There?s a stack of recent poetry books by my desk. Almost at  
> random, they declare their doubt. In some cases, the titles  
> themselves give away the author?s air of uncertainty: There?s  
> Incomplete Knowledge by Jeffrey Harrison, as well as John  
> Gallaher?s The Little Book of Guesses. ?Yesterday for you / I wrote  
> a poem so full / of lies it woke me?, writes Matthew Zapruder in  
> The Pajamist, and the first line of Paisley Rekdal?s ?The Invention  
> of the Kaleidoscope? says simply, ?I am going to fail.?
>
> Yet certainty and doubt are two sides of the same coin, and each of  
> these collections seems to begin in shadow just so it can work its  
> way into the light. If there?s a single quality common to all good  
> poems, it?s that each takes the reader on the full roller coaster  
> ride of idea and emotion, up the peaks and down the valleys. It  
> then drops the reader off at the starting point again, the same  
> person still, though changed."
> --David Kirby.  "Why, Poetry?"  The American Interest Online.  July/ 
> August 2007.
> http://the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=300&MId=14
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:07 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes  
>> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero  
>> sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It  
>> seems to me that's much the fashion
>> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I  
>> wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of  
>> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 10:33:25 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:33:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for pointing
that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from Jeffers'
scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things and
the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things that a
reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."

This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to to
clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the more
complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are all
ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.  Poetry must
concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These have poetic value;
the ephemeral have only news-value."

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he says:
hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and] political
adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this context, btw).  Is
Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term) would never feature an
airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?

Just a few thoughts.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have
> some "certainty" in their saying.
> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum'
> matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to
> me that's much the fashion
> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't
> want to avoid a poetry strove,
> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding
> the stil-point amid the welter.
>
> It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to shed
> light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The
> 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close
> to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to someone
> like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return, e.g
> .).
>
> No answers here...only observations.
> Finnegan
>
>
> It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>
> *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what
> quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and
> which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that
> is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts,
> without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for
> instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the
> Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with
> half-knowledge. *
>
> The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably
> have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow
> ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which
> there are three blackbirds.
>
> I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats
> saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's
> criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior
> quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an
> */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.
>
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his
> letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure
> that I know what you're talking about.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <Opus40-01 at opus40.org?>>> wrote:
> >
> > Keats kinda said the same thing.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
> > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be
> > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
> > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
> > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
> > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
> > >
> > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,
> > January
> > > 2007
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 10:45:05 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:45:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
qualify as toads in my mind.

"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
explanation."
~ Dana Gioia 



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
pointing that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim
Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."


This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
to clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value." 

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?  

Just a few thoughts.  

Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:

	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty 
	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
seems to me that's much the fashion
	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove, 
	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
finding the stil-point amid the welter.
	
	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
"Return, e.g.).
	
	No answers here...only observations.
	Finnegan
	
	
	

		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers. 
		 
		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *  
		 
		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.  
		 
		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
reason/, *but what the hey.  
		 
		Jeff Newberry wrote: 
		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.  
		> 
		> Jeff Newberry 
		> 
		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote: 
		> 
		> Keats kinda said the same thing. 
		> 
		> Jeff Newberry wrote: 
		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
the walls of 
		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
poetry ought to be 
		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
opportunity to learn to 
		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
claiming indeterminacy. 
		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
reason, but I 
		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
wonder." 
		> > 
		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
Function," Poetry, 
		> January 
		> > 2007 
		


________________________________

	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
what's free from AOL at AOL.com
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
	

	_______________________________________________
	New-Poetry mailing list
	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
<http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> 
	
	




--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 10:55:12 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:55:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?  I'd
love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
>         Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>         He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>         and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
>         of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>         at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
>         It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>         So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>         within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>         Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>         'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
>
>         No answers here...only observations.
>         Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>                 It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>
>                 *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>
>                 The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>
>                 I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
>
>                 Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                 > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>                 >
>                 > Jeff Newberry
>                 >
>                 > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
>                 >
>                 > Keats kinda said the same thing.
>                 >
>                 > Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                 > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
>                 > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
>                 > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
>                 > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
>                 > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
>                 > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
>                 > >
>                 > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
>                 > January
>                 > > 2007
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>         AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 10:59:17 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:59:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

It's from a didactic poem of hers called <hmm hmm> "Poetry". 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:55
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?
I'd love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:

	Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore
said,
	"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM
machines
	qualify as toads in my mind.
	
	"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains
beyond 
	explanation."
	~ Dana Gioia
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	[mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
<mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
	Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
	To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
	Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
	
	Jim,
	
	I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks
for
	pointing that out.
	
	Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes
from
	Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson
Jeffers, Tim 
	Hunt, ed.):
	
	" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
things
	and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal
with things
	that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be
moved by." 
	
	
	This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
goes to
	to clarify his meaning:
	
	"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
circumstances of
	modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of
machinery, the 
	more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
forth, are
	all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist
again.
	Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.
These
	have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
	
	I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is
news that
	stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means
what he 
	says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social,
financial, [and]
	political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
	context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded
term) 
	would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
	
	Just a few thoughts.
	
	Jeff Newberry
	
	
	On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> 
	<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
	
	        Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many
quotes
	that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
	        He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or'
or
	'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
	        and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by
now. It 
	seems to me that's much the fashion
	        of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry.
Personally,
	I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
	        at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is
capable of 
	finding the stil-point amid the welter.
	
	        It's curious that Jackson uses the verb
'illumine'...which means
	to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
	        So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious,
inscrutable, 
	etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
	        within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty'
is a
	notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
	        Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost
a nod to
	someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
	        'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers'
sonnet
	"Return, e.g.).
	
	        No answers here...only observations.
	        Finnegan
	
	
	
	
	                It's the Negative Capability letter. To his
brothers.
	
	                *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at
once it 
	struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
especially in
	Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I
mean
	Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
	uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching
after 
	fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
	isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery,
from
	being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
	
	                The thing is, poetry is kinda different from
life. In 
	life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty
early on.
	In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of
three
	minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
	
	                I've asked this before, but since we're back to
it 
	again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional
wisdom
	seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think
he's
	praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and
answer 
	this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after
fact and
	reason/, *but what the hey.
	
	                Jeff Newberry wrote:
	                > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've
been 
	reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the
passage you
	reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking
about.
	                >
	                > Jeff Newberry 
	                >
	                > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org
> <
	mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >>
wrote:
	                >
	                > Keats kinda said the same thing.
	                >
	                > Jeff Newberry wrote: 
	                > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to
illumine
	the walls of
	                > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I
think
	poetry ought to be
	                > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an

	opportunity to learn to
	                > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
	claiming indeterminacy.
	                > > Our species is deeply defined by its great
surges of
	reason, but I 
	                > > think it high time we return to elemental
awe and
	wonder."
	                > >
	                > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
	Function," Poetry, 
	                > January
	                > > 2007
	
	
	
	________________________________
	
	        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more
about
	what's free from AOL at AOL.com 
	<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
	
	
	        _______________________________________________
	        New-Poetry mailing list
	        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
	< http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
<http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >
	
	
	
	
	
	
	--
	"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
	recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
	-William Faulkner, Light in August 
	
	
	http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
	
	_______________________________________________
	New-Poetry mailing list
	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
	




--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 11:33:13 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:33:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020833m48d38d68s87df4ed81a60e54c@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Steve.

Jeff

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
> It's from a didactic poem of hers called <hmm hmm> "Poetry".
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:55
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?
> I'd love to read the essay(?) itself.
>
> Best,
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
>         Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore
> said,
>         "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM
> machines
>         qualify as toads in my mind.
>
>         "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains
> beyond
>         explanation."
>         ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         [mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> <mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
>         Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
>         To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>         Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
>         Jim,
>
>         I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks
> for
>         pointing that out.
>
>         Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes
> from
>         Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson
> Jeffers, Tim
>         Hunt, ed.):
>
>         " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
> things
>         and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal
> with things
>         that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be
> moved by."
>
>
>         This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
> goes to
>         to clarify his meaning:
>
>         "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
> circumstances of
>         modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of
> machinery, the
>         more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
> forth, are
>         all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist
> again.
>         Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.
> These
>         have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
>         I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is
> news that
>         stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means
> what he
>         says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social,
> financial, [and]
>         political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
>         context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded
> term)
>         would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
>         Just a few thoughts.
>
>         Jeff Newberry
>
>
>         On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com>
>         <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
>                 Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many
> quotes
>         that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>                 He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or'
> or
>         'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>                 and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by
> now. It
>         seems to me that's much the fashion
>                 of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry.
> Personally,
>         I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>                 at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is
> capable of
>         finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
>                 It's curious that Jackson uses the verb
> 'illumine'...which means
>         to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>                 So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious,
> inscrutable,
>         etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>                 within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty'
> is a
>         notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>                 Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost
> a nod to
>         someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>                 'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers'
> sonnet
>         "Return, e.g.).
>
>                 No answers here...only observations.
>                 Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>                         It's the Negative Capability letter. To his
> brothers.
>
>                         *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at
> once it
>         struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
> especially in
>         Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I
> mean
>         Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
>         uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching
> after
>         fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
>         isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery,
> from
>         being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>
>                         The thing is, poetry is kinda different from
> life. In
>         life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty
> early on.
>         In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of
> three
>         minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>
>                         I've asked this before, but since we're back to
> it
>         again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional
> wisdom
>         seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think
> he's
>         praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and
> answer
>         this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after
> fact and
>         reason/, *but what the hey.
>
>                         Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                         > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've
> been
>         reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the
> passage you
>         reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking
> about.
>                         >
>                         > Jeff Newberry
>                         >
>                         > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org
> > <
>         mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >>
> wrote:
>                         >
>                         > Keats kinda said the same thing.
>                         >
>                         > Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                         > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to
> illumine
>         the walls of
>                         > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I
> think
>         poetry ought to be
>                         > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
>
>         opportunity to learn to
>                         > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
>         claiming indeterminacy.
>                         > > Our species is deeply defined by its great
> surges of
>         reason, but I
>                         > > think it high time we return to elemental
> awe and
>         wonder."
>                         > >
>                         > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
>         Function," Poetry,
>                         > January
>                         > > 2007
>
>
>
>         ________________________________
>
>                 AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more
> about
>         what's free from AOL at AOL.com
>         <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 New-Poetry mailing list
>                 New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>                 http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>         < http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
>         recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>         -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
>         http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 11:35:09 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:35:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Ellen Solt, 86; poet, poetry critic
Message-ID: <8C98AD5B57235C3-DAC-DACB@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.calendarlive.com/books/la-me-solt29jun29,0,2707374.story?coll=cl-books-features


OBITUARIES
Mary Ellen Solt, 86; poet, poetry critic


By Mary Rourke, Times Staff Writer


Mary Ellen Solt, a poet and poetry critic who often arranged words on the page in a visual graphic, resulting in such works as "Forsythia," a poem that looks like a flowering shrub, has died. She was 86.

Solt died June 21 at Henry Mayo Newhall Memorial Hospital in Santa Clarita after suffering a stroke, her daughter Susan said. 

?
She was a leader in the concrete poetry movement that emerged in the 1960s. It held that the visual effect of letters, words and phrases on a page is an important element in poetry. 

A poem is "an object in its own right for its own sake" that "communicates first and foremost its structure," Solt wrote in her book "Concrete Poetry: A World View," published in 1968.


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 11:35:51 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:35:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>



On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
===============================

Moore was, of course, mainly updating Whitman, who gets most credit  
for inaugurating a strain of American poetry that has dominated since  
the early 20th Century.  Here's his wonderful description of the Muse:

"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for  
herself, striding through the confusion,
By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle undismay'd,
Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,
Smiling and pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,
She's here, install'd amid the kitchen ware!"

--Whitman.  "Song of the Exposition"



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 11:52:11 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:52:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>

Here's a real poem then:

ATM in Lobby

                         ?Lobby Girl sits on the fat man?s knee-e,
                          fat man happy as he can be-e.?

He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
with some companions what men began to loosen.

Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of  
new dreaming.
We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became lost
in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,

The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.

I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in  
her mouth,
to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.

And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my  
straining cock,
of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring  
the interior
regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that  
will unite
us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders

of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally all
of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground

her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring mind.

No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn?t going
to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had  
prepared
me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of  
discovery.
I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.

Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.


--HJ





"I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
  cheaper than models and they don't move."
			--Georgia O'Keefe

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,  
> Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent  
> things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with  
> things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved  
> by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers  
> goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the  
> circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so  
> forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news  
> that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,  
> [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
> 	
> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
> 	
> 	No answers here...only observations.
> 	Finnegan
> 	
> 	
> 	
>
> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
> 		
> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,  
> especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
> 		
> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
> 		
> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
> 		
> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry
> 		>
> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
> 		>
> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
> 		> >
> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
> 		> January
> 		> > 2007
> 		
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
> 	
>
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	New-Poetry mailing list
> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
> 	
> 	
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 12:00:43 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:00:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Georgia O'Keeffe loved flowers.  I've visited her residence in Abiquiu a
couple of times, and she grew a lot of flowers there.  Just outside her
studio door she grew Datura, which she highly valued as both a flower
and subject matter.  However she'd probably hate this poem.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:52
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Here's a real poem then:

ATM in Lobby

                         "Lobby Girl sits on the fat man's knee-e,
                          fat man happy as he can be-e."

He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
with some companions what men began to loosen.

Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of  
new dreaming.
We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became lost
in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,

The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.

I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in  
her mouth,
to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.

And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my  
straining cock,
of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring  
the interior
regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that  
will unite
us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders

of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally all
of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground

her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring mind.

No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn't going
to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had  
prepared
me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of  
discovery.
I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.

Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.


--HJ





"I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
  cheaper than models and they don't move."
			--Georgia O'Keefe

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,  
> Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent  
> things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with  
> things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved  
> by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers  
> goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the  
> circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so  
> forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news  
> that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,  
> [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
> 	
> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
> 	
> 	No answers here...only observations.
> 	Finnegan
> 	
> 	
> 	
>
> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
> 		
> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,  
> especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
> 		
> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
> 		
> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
> 		
> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry
> 		>
> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
> 		>
> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
> 		> >
> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
> 		> January
> 		> > 2007
> 		
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
> 	
>
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	New-Poetry mailing list
> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
> 	
> 	
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Jul  2 12:29:43 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:29:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <26F6EFF8-997B-48B7-9E49-3D0329170617@earthlink.net>

I'd be honored.

Hal

"[News is] what somebody doesn't want you to know.
  All the rest is advertising."
                       --Dan Rather

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Georgia O'Keeffe loved flowers.  I've visited her residence in  
> Abiquiu a
> couple of times, and she grew a lot of flowers there.  Just outside  
> her
> studio door she grew Datura, which she highly valued as both a flower
> and subject matter.  However she'd probably hate this poem.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Halvard  
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:52
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Here's a real poem then:
>
> ATM in Lobby
>
>                          "Lobby Girl sits on the fat man's knee-e,
>                           fat man happy as he can be-e."
>
> He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
> the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
> Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
> with some companions what men began to loosen.
>
> Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
> to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of
> new dreaming.
> We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became  
> lost
> in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,
>
> The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
> done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
> to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
> her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.
>
> I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
> to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in
> her mouth,
> to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
> a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.
>
> And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my
> straining cock,
> of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring
> the interior
> regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that
> will unite
> us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders
>
> of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
> conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally  
> all
> of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
> of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground
>
> her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
> All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
> then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
> the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring  
> mind.
>
> No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn't going
> to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had
> prepared
> me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of
> discovery.
> I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.
>
> Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.
>
>
> --HJ
>
>
>
>
>
> "I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
>   cheaper than models and they don't move."
> 			--Georgia O'Keefe
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
>
>> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
>> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
>> qualify as toads in my mind.
>>
>> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
>> explanation."
>> ~ Dana Gioia
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff  
>> Newberry
>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
>> pointing that out.
>>
>> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
>> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,
>> Tim
>> Hunt, ed.):
>>
>> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
>> things
>> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with
>> things
>> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved
>> by."
>>
>>
>> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
>> goes to
>> to clarify his meaning:
>>
>> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
>> circumstances of
>> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
>> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
>> forth, are
>> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
>> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
>> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>>
>> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news
>> that
>> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
>> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,
>> [and]
>> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
>> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded  
>> term)
>> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>>
>> Just a few thoughts.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>>
>> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
>> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>>
>> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
>> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
>> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
>> seems to me that's much the fashion
>> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
>> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
>> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>> 	
>> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
>> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
>> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
>> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
>> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
>> "Return, e.g.).
>> 	
>> 	No answers here...only observations.
>> 	Finnegan
>> 	
>> 	
>> 	
>>
>> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>> 		
>> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
>> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
>> especially in
>> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
>> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
>> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching  
>> after
>> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
>> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
>> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>> 		
>> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
>> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early  
>> on.
>> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
>> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>> 		
>> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
>> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
>> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
>> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
>> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
>> reason/, *but what the hey.
>> 		
>> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
>> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
>> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
>> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>> 		>
>> 		> Jeff Newberry
>> 		>
>> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
>> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
>> 		>
>> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
>> 		>
>> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
>> the walls of
>> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
>> poetry ought to be
>> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
>> opportunity to learn to
>> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
>> claiming indeterminacy.
>> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
>> reason, but I
>> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
>> wonder."
>> 		> >
>> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
>> Function," Poetry,
>> 		> January
>> 		> > 2007
>> 		
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
>> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>> 	
>>
>> 	_______________________________________________
>> 	New-Poetry mailing list
>> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
>> 	
>> 	
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 13:14:39 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:14:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>

David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan







"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for herself, striding through the confusion,


By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle 
undismay'd,



Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,


Smiling and 
pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,


She's here, 
install'd amid the kitchen ware!"




--Whitman.? "Song of the Exposition"

?



________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:34:29 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:34:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00b101c7bccf$45615f90$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

How 'bout: "real unicorns with imaginary tapeworms in them."

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:36 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,

"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines

qualify as toads in my mind.

===============================

 

Moore was, of course, mainly updating Whitman, who gets most credit for
inaugurating a strain of American poetry that has dominated since the early
20th Century.  Here's his wonderful description of the Muse:

 

"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for
herself, striding through the confusion,

By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle undismay'd,

Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,

Smiling and pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,

She's here, install'd amid the kitchen ware!"

 

--Whitman.  "Song of the Exposition"

 

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 

 





 

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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:49:05 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:49:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c7bcd1$4ec02330$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Moore quote from the full version of "Poetry" beginning "I, too, dislike it"
(I cannot lineate in e-mail accurately, so):

 

". . . One must make a distinction / however: when dragged into prominence
by half poets, the result is not poetry, / nor till the poets among us can
be / "literalists of /  the imagination"-above / insolence and triviality
and can present / / for inspection, "imaginary gardens with real toads in
them, shall we have / it. . . ."

 

and the lines are gracefully arranged on the page, or such that rather
officious language ("can present / / for inspection") seems to have an
edenic shine.

 

_The Poems of Marianne Moore_. Ed. Grace Schulman. New York: Penguin, 2003.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:55 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?  I'd
love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
qualify as toads in my mind.

"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond 
explanation."
~ Dana Gioia



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto: <mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
pointing that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim 
Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by." 


This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
to clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the 
more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he 
says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term) 
would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?

Just a few thoughts.

Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:

        Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
        He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
        and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It 
seems to me that's much the fashion
        of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
        at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of 
finding the stil-point amid the welter.

        It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
        So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, 
etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
        within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
        Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
        'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
"Return, e.g.).

        No answers here...only observations.
        Finnegan




                It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.

                *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it 
struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after 
fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *

                The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In 
life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.

                I've asked this before, but since we're back to it 
again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer 
this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
reason/, *but what the hey.

                Jeff Newberry wrote:
                > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been 
reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
                >
                > Jeff Newberry 
                >
                > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
                >
                > Keats kinda said the same thing.
                >
                > Jeff Newberry wrote: 
                > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
the walls of
                > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
poetry ought to be
                > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an 
opportunity to learn to
                > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
claiming indeterminacy.
                > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
reason, but I 
                > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
wonder."
                > >
                > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
Function," Poetry, 
                > January
                > > 2007



________________________________

        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
what's free from AOL at AOL.com 
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .


        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
< <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>






--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
-William Faulkner, Light in August 


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 

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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:53:24 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:53:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c7bcd1$e8c94600$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Interesting question. I know that now, as always (I just didn't always know
it), my first question confronting a work of art is: How was it for you?
And, of course, good art gives testimony, even if it is fantastic, baldly
wrong, etc. Perhaps that's too simple.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:07 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have
some "certainty" in their saying.
He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum'
matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty 
and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to me
that's much the fashion
of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't
want to avoid a poetry strove, 
at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding the
stil-point amid the welter.

It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to shed
light, and more generally, to show cleary.
So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The 'walls
of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close
to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to someone
like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return,
e.g.).

No answers here...only observations.
Finnegan



It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers. 
 
*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what
quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and
which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that
is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts,
without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for
instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the
Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with
half-knowledge. * 
 
The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably have
to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow
ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which
there are three blackbirds. 
 
I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats
saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's
criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior
quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an
*/irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey. 
 
Jeff Newberry wrote: 
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his
letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure
that I know what you're talking about. 
> 
> Jeff Newberry 
> 
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org >
<mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote: 
> 
> Keats kinda said the same thing. 
> 
> Jeff Newberry wrote: 
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of 
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be 
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to 
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy. 
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I 
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder." 
> > 
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, 
> January 
> > 2007 

 

  _____  

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at  <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> AOL.com.

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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 15:46:20 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:46:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it 
in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 15:49:57 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:49:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.ed
	u> <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan

So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.

--Bob
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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 14:58:20 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:58:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.ed	u>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
	<00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8C98AF217BC8283-DAC-E5E9@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>

I love the smell of burning paper in the morning. A traditional wastebasket is probably better for the environment.

So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?



David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan


So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.

?

--Bob



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 14:59:04 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:59:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>



On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once  
> read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it  
> again.
>
> --Bob G.
==============

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore  
ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very  
scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his  
view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal  
realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing  
Blake's illustrations of Dante.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 15:06:24 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:06:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a well-furnished poem, ready to move in
In-Reply-To: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C98AF3382318D7-DAC-E65B@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>



I posted this quote?recently on another list, and now it again seems apropos to thoughts of toasters,?ATMs and toads in poems...

Thirteen years ago, I had the slightly terrifying honor of talking with the venerated and mellifluous Rabindranath Tagore. We were speaking of the poetry of Baudelaire. Someone recited "La Mort des amants," that sonnet so appointed with beds, couches, flowers, chimneys, mantelpieces, mirrors, and angels. Tagore listened intently, but at the end he exclaimed, "I don't like your furniture poet!" 


- Borges from a review of Tagore's Collected Poems and Plays



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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 15:07:26 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:07:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
Poetry" as follows:

"In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger

 	              by the light
Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
And music soft, 	 

and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""

Not a very sexy quote.


-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads



On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

	The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
again.

	--Bob G. 

==============

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
about acknowledging her borrowings.  

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================








From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 15:12:15 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:12:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>




On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:14 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those  
> gauzy poems full of abstractions
> and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this  
> poem needs is a toaster."
> Finnegan
=================

One of my favorite quotes is from Melville, who commented that  
Emerson wrote like a man who had never had a toothache.  I sometimes  
explain the difference between Emerson's and Whitman's take on  
Transcendentalism with this quotation.  Whitman includes the  
amputated limb dropping horribly in a pail; Emerson does not.

I've lost the exact reference for Melville's remark, if anyone would  
like to enlighten me.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================

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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 16:16:37 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:16:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0
	707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.
	mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsu
	sea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>







  On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
    The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.


    --Bob G. 
  ==============


  I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.  


  The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's illustrations of Dante.


  I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in quotes.

  --Bob G.
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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 15:27:39 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:27:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>

And, of course, Larkin:

Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off?

Six days of the week it soils
With its sickening poison -
Just for paying a few bills!
That's out of proportion.

Lots of folk live on their wits:
Lecturers, lispers,
Losers, loblolly-men, louts-
They don't end as paupers;

Lots of folk live up lanes
With fires in a bucket,
Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
They seem to like it.

Their nippers have got bare feet,
Their unspeakable wives
Are skinny as whippets - and yet
No one actually _starves_.

Ah, were I courageous enough
To shout, Stuff your pension!
But I know, all too well, that's the stuff
That dreams are made on:

For something sufficiently toad-like
Squats in me, too;
Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
And cold as snow,

And will never allow me to blarney
My way of getting
The fame and the girl and the money
All at one sitting.

I don't say, one bodies the other
One's spiritual truth;
But I do say it's hard to lose either,
When you have both.



Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
> Poetry" as follows:
>
> "In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
> ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger
>
>  	              by the light
> Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
> And music soft, 	 
>
> and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
> things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
> last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""
>
> Not a very sexy quote.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> 	The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
> once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
> again.
>
> 	--Bob G. 
>
> ==============
>
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
> about acknowledging her borrowings.  
>
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
> of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> illustrations of Dante.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 15:29:41 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:29:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0
	707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.
	mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsu
	sea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4E9A7575-2D55-4299-9CA6-1D95C7D7E18D@ripon.edu>


On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore  
> ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very  
> scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.
>
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his  
> view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too  
> literal realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's  
> discussing Blake's illustrations of Dante.
>
> I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage  
> in quotes.
>
> --Bob G.
================================


 From Representative Poetry Online:

imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore  
places quotation marks around these words, but their source is  
unknown. Possibly Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall"  
in Kenneth Grahame's The Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's  
sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F Fisher Rare Book Library), a  
children's book with real poems in it. Cf. Grahame's account of Toad  
of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was excellent, of course, as  
everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad simply let himself go.  
Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the inexperienced  
Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always mastered by  
his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the joys of  
the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole  
could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
-----------


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 15:29:53 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:29:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
	<C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <46895231.6080401@opus40.org>

And I believe it was Hopkins who said that Browning has a way of 
talking, and making his characters talk, like a man jumping up from the 
table with his mouth full of bread and cheese, and saying he will stand 
for no blasted nonsense.

David Graham wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:14 PM, jforjames at aol.com 
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>> David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those 
>> gauzy poems full of abstractions 
>> and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem 
>> needs is a toaster."
>> Finnegan
> =================
>
> One of my favorite quotes is from Melville, who commented that Emerson 
> wrote like a man who had never had a toothache.  I sometimes explain 
> the difference between Emerson's and Whitman's take on 
> Transcendentalism with this quotation.  Whitman includes the amputated 
> limb dropping horribly in a pail; Emerson does not.
>
> I've lost the exact reference for Melville's remark, if anyone would 
> like to enlighten me.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Mon Jul  2 15:33:10 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:33:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00e801c7bcdf$d950f980$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Moore sometimes put quotation marks around phrases she's invented, if I
remember correctly. If that is what happens here, " imaginary gardens with
real toads in them," she could have seen the combined image as a shorthand
for the remainder of Yeat's sentence when he goes on to describe the poet as
one who "because he believed that the figures seen by the mind's eye, when
exalted by inspiration, were 'eternal existences,' symbols of divine
essences, . . . hated every grace of style that might obscure their
lineaments." If so (and putting the quotation marks around the second phrase
as though she's continuing the original thought/speaker), then her
commentary-shorthand on Yeats might be seen as quirky by some, properly
deflating by others.

 

A bit supposition heavy, but . . .

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:59 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads

 

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it
in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.

 

--Bob G. 

==============

 

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
acknowledging her borrowings.  

 

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.

 

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 

 





 

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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 15:41:16 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:41:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707021241jd24ebc2p8980e1c51fe6276@mail.gmail.com>

Tad,

Thanks for posting this.  I love Larkin's work, toads and all.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> And, of course, Larkin:
>
> Why should I let the toad work
> Squat on my life?
> Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
> And drive the brute off?
>
> Six days of the week it soils
> With its sickening poison -
> Just for paying a few bills!
> That's out of proportion.
>
> Lots of folk live on their wits:
> Lecturers, lispers,
> Losers, loblolly-men, louts-
> They don't end as paupers;
>
> Lots of folk live up lanes
> With fires in a bucket,
> Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
> They seem to like it.
>
> Their nippers have got bare feet,
> Their unspeakable wives
> Are skinny as whippets - and yet
> No one actually _starves_.
>
> Ah, were I courageous enough
> To shout, Stuff your pension!
> But I know, all too well, that's the stuff
> That dreams are made on:
>
> For something sufficiently toad-like
> Squats in me, too;
> Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
> And cold as snow,
>
> And will never allow me to blarney
> My way of getting
> The fame and the girl and the money
> All at one sitting.
>
> I don't say, one bodies the other
> One's spiritual truth;
> But I do say it's hard to lose either,
> When you have both.
>
>
>
> Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> > Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
> > Poetry" as follows:
> >
> > "In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
> > ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger
> >
> >                     by the light
> > Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
> > And music soft,
> >
> > and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
> > things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
> > last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""
> >
> > Not a very sexy quote.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> >       The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
> > once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
> > again.
> >
> >       --Bob G.
> >
> > ==============
> >
> > I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> > ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
> > about acknowledging her borrowings.
> >
> > The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> > was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
> > of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> > illustrations of Dante.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >
> > Home Page:
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> >
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> > ==========================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From skip  Mon Jul  2 16:15:47 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <4E9A7575-2D55-4299-9CA6-1D95C7D7E18D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as the
genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she was
gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping with
her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities. 

 

Well . . .  

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
acknowledging her borrowings.  

 

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.

 

I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
quotes.

 

--Bob G.

================================

 

 

>From Representative Poetry Online:

 

imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore places
quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown. Possibly
Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's The
Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F
Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the
inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the
joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole
could hardly sit in his chair for excitement" 

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html

-----------

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 





 

 

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From cervantes.james  Mon Jul  2 19:27:49 2007
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 18:27:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
Message-ID: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>

Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk

Plus, there's more!

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/



From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 20:45:59 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:45:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46899C47.3040902@opus40.org>

I love that. And I'm a Billy Collins admirer, but I think the animation 
steals the show there.

James Cervantes wrote:
> Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
>
> Plus, there's more!
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 20:50:27 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:50:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>

"Now and Then" os the best one.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xiWuwGq8M&mode=related&search=



James Cervantes wrote:
> Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
>
> Plus, there's more!
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From cervantes.james  Tue Jul  3 10:05:50 2007
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:05:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
	<46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <648208b60707030705t5804be0eve5959db969681c3d@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I like it when the ice cream truck bonks the birdie on the head.
 Meta-Collins.

- Jim

On 7/2/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
> "Now and Then" os the best one.
>
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xiWuwGq8M&mode=related&search=
>
>
>
> James Cervantes wrote:
> > Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> > You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
> >
> > Plus, there's more!
> >
> > -- Jim
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> > ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> > ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> > ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/



From suelin7184  Tue Jul  3 14:51:00 2007
From: suelin7184 (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 13:51:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
Message-ID: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?

thanks,
lsg 
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From screwzbaran  Tue Jul  3 15:14:10 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:14:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
In-Reply-To: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA

On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but
> lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?
>
> thanks,
> lsg
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From suelin7184  Tue Jul  3 17:35:04 2007
From: suelin7184 (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:35:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
	<2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I don't see anything on that page that answers my question.  What am I missing?

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Suzanne Baran 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] line recognition


  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA


  On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
    Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?

    thanks,
    lsg 

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





  -- 
  "What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses." 
  - Daisaku Ikeda 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From elemenope_productions  Tue Jul  3 17:39:37 2007
From: elemenope_productions (R Dillon)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:39:37 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toad Poem
Message-ID: <BLU103-W44BCF61674C7B2559BE7FA900C0@phx.gbl>


And then there's the Zen poem everybody's read:
 
 
 
 
Toad - -
           KerPlop!
------------------Jumped!
 
 
 
 
RD
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!??
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink
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From screwzbaran  Tue Jul  3 17:43:04 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:43:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
In-Reply-To: <001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
	<2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>
	<001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707031443v1a502230p410bf694ef7c28c@mail.gmail.com>

i just sent another article, sorry.

On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I don't see anything on that page that answers my question.  What am I
> missing?
>
> lsg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Suzanne Baran <screwzbaran at gmail.com>
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] line recognition
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA
>
> On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but
> > lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?
> >
> > thanks,
> > lsg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
> giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
> life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
> persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
> winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
> - Daisaku Ikeda
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From edmundhardy  Tue Jul  3 18:19:22 2007
From: edmundhardy (Edmund Hardy)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:19:22 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Riley blog symposium
In-Reply-To: <200707021836.l62IZxKR021377@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY112-F19AF1467A7BF0688CECFC8BA0C0@phx.gbl>




http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2007/07/peter-riley-blog-symposium.html

"Intercapillary Space" invites you to contribute a blog post, letter, 
closely argued essay, postcard, diary entry, painting or some other reaction 
to the work of Peter Riley (as writer and editor) for a Blog Symposium 
planned for the week beginning on monday 8th October.

This idea was prompted by the publication, earlier this year, of The Day's 
Final Balance: uncollected writings 1965-2006 and The Llyn Writings from 
Shearsman.

If you are interested please email edmundhardy at hotmail.com


Please forward this notice to any who may be interested.


Link:

http://www.aprileye.co.uk/
Peter Riley's website: who is Peter Riley, what has he published, what is 
his work like, what does he look like, where can I read more of him?

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here!  http://www.newhotmail.co.uk




From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 19:26:18 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 19:26:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] & Frogs
Message-ID: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>

 
The Poets Agree to Be Quiet by the Swamp   
They hold their hands over their  mouths 
And stare at the stretch of  water. 
What can be said has been said before:   
Strokes of light like herons' legs in the  cattails, 
Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.   
Therefore, the poets may keep quiet.   
But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.   
They stick their elbows out into the evening,   
Stoop, and begin the ancient  croaking. 
-  David Wagoner, Collected Poems 1956-1976



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 19:34:11 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 19:34:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
Message-ID: <cbb.1438ecf5.33bd8873@aol.com>

 
_http://www.poetrylibrary.org.uk/queries/lostquotes/_ 
(http://www.poetrylibrary.org.uk/queries/lostquotes/) 
This site might help.
Finnegan
 
In a message dated 7/3/2007 2:50:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
suelin7184 at gmail.com writes:

Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but  lo! one 
solitary gull still sentineled the lonely  rock"?
 



 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From chris.lott  Wed Jul  4 19:49:29 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:49:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] & Frogs
In-Reply-To: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>
References: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707041649j40129f84kd8244f85bb6ef10f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, a toad rather than frogs, but I'm no biologist...

The Toad
Juan Jose Arreola

Every so often he jumps, just to make it clear that he is essentially
immobile. The jump is in some way like a heartbeat; careful
observation makes it plain that the whole of the toad is a heart.

Clamped in a hunk of cold mud, the toad sinks into the winter like a
mournful chrysalis. He wakes in the spring knowing that he has not
changed into anything else. Dried to his depths, he is more a toad
than ever. He waits in silence for the first rains.

And one fine day he heaves himself out of the pliant earth, heavy with
moisture, swollen with spiteful sap, like a heart tossed onto the
ground. In his sphinxlike posture there is a secret proposition of
exchange, and the toad's ugliness appalls us like a mirror.



From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 22:07:29 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:07:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MURPHY'S POETRY LAWS
Message-ID: <cfe.117dea30.33bdac61@aol.com>

on Gary Sullivan's blog...
_http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/2007/06/murphys-poetry-laws-if-at-first-you.
html_ 
(http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/2007/06/murphys-poetry-laws-if-at-first-you.html) 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From bmarcacci  Thu Jul  5 04:44:12 2007
From: bmarcacci (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:44:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

DEATH OF A NATURALIST
by Seamus Heaney

All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
of the townland; green and heavy headed
Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
But best of all was the warm thick slobber
Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
Specks to range on window-sills at home,
On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
The fattening dots burst into nimble-
Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
For they were yellow in the sun and brown
In rain.

Then one hot day when fields were rank
With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.

-- 
Bob Marcacci

Take time to come home to yourself everyday.
 - Robin Casarjean
 


> From: Skip Fox <skip at louisiana.edu>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
> To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views'"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Toads
> 
> I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as the
> genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she was
> gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping with
> her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities.
> 
>  
> 
> Well . . .  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
> to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
> acknowledging her borrowings.
> 
>  
> 
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
> from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
> imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> illustrations of Dante.
> 
>  
> 
> I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
> quotes.
> 
>  
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> ================================
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>> From Representative Poetry Online:
> 
>  
> 
> imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore places
> quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown. Possibly
> Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's The
> Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F
> Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
> Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
> excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
> simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the
> inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
> mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the
> joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole
> could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
> 
> http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
> 
> -----------
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ========================================
> 
> David Graham
> 
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> 
>  
> 
> Home Page:
> 
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> 
>  
> 
> Poetry Library:
> 
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> 
> ==========================================
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From jeff.newberry  Thu Jul  5 08:44:09 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:44:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
References: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707050544m139c3fefr17f0c8fdb1d8ee66@mail.gmail.com>

Another favorite.  Thanks for posting this, Bob.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/5/07, Bob Marcacci <bmarcacci at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> DEATH OF A NATURALIST
> by Seamus Heaney
>
> All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
> of the townland; green and heavy headed
> Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
> Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
> Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
> Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
> There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
> But best of all was the warm thick slobber
> Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
> In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
> I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
> Specks to range on window-sills at home,
> On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
> The fattening dots burst into nimble-
> Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
> The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
> And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
> Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
> Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
> For they were yellow in the sun and brown
> In rain.
>
> Then one hot day when fields were rank
> With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
> Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
> To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
> Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
> Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
> On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
> The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
> Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
> I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
> Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
> That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.
>
> --
> Bob Marcacci
>
> Take time to come home to yourself everyday.
> - Robin Casarjean
>
>
>
> > From: Skip Fox <skip at louisiana.edu>
> > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
> > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views'"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> > I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as
> the
> > genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she
> was
> > gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping
> with
> > her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> ascribes
> > to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
> > acknowledging her borrowings.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> was
> > from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
> > imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> > illustrations of Dante.
> >
> >
> >
> > I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
> > quotes.
> >
> >
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> > ================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From Representative Poetry Online:
> >
> >
> >
> > imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore
> places
> > quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown.
> Possibly
> > Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's
> The
> > Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at
> del F
> > Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
> > Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
> > excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
> > simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon
> the
> > inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
> > mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and
> the
> > joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the
> Mole
> > could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
> >
> > http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
> >
> > -----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ========================================
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > Home Page:
> >
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Poetry Library:
> >
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> >
> > ==========================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul  5 09:27:11 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:27:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
References: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468CF1AF.7020001@opus40.org>

Good one.

Bob Marcacci wrote:
> DEATH OF A NATURALIST
> by Seamus Heaney
>
> All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
> of the townland; green and heavy headed
> Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
> Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
> Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
> Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
> There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
> But best of all was the warm thick slobber
> Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
> In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
> I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
> Specks to range on window-sills at home,
> On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
> The fattening dots burst into nimble-
> Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
> The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
> And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
> Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
> Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
> For they were yellow in the sun and brown
> In rain.
>
> Then one hot day when fields were rank
> With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
> Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
> To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
> Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
> Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
> On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
> The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
> Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
> I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
> Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
> That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jimgoar  Sat Jul  7 13:35:20 2007
From: jimgoar (jim goar)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] past simple 3
Message-ID: <486663.82530.qm@web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

past simple 3 is ready to be seen.  Eat the words for
lunch.

www.pastsimple.org



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz 



From gmguddi  Sat Jul  7 18:59:53 2007
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:59:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at jacket
	magazine 
Message-ID: <46901AE9.8030205@ilstu.edu>


http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml


George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Katie Degentesh
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan




From Rsgwynn1  Sat Jul  7 19:38:19 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:38:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at jacket
	magazine 
Message-ID: <cc6.15a43961.33c17deb@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/7/2007 5:59:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: 
> 
> http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml
> 
> 
> George Bowering
> Maxine Chernoff
> Katie Degentesh
> Gabriel Gudding
> Rachel Loden
> Ange Mlinko
> K. Silem Mohammad
> D. A. Powell
> Ron Silliman
> Gary Sullivan

"A grave and dark-clad company," quoth Goodman Brown.   
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From halvard  Sat Jul  7 20:33:26 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:33:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Submissions requested for another Big Bridge anthology
Message-ID: <D3AB97A2-AF3A-47D3-AD63-91C7A8174002@earthlink.net>

Friends and neighbors--

For a second mini-anthology of poems, this time inspired by/ 
responding to/related to
Czeslaw Milosz's poem "Dedication" and/or the various wars/ 
insurgencies/etc. going
on in the world today, please send 1-6 poems to me at  
halvard at earthlink.net with the
words "Big Bridge" followed by your own name clearly in the subject  
line. Please,
when sending attachments, send all poems in a single attachment.

This mini-anthology (approx. 30 poems) will appear in the January  
issue of Big Bridge,
and I'll consider submissions of work received before the end of  
November.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



Dedication

You whom I could not save
Listen to me.
Try to understand this simple speech as I would be ashamed of another.
I swear, there is in me no wizardry of words.
I speak to you with silence like a cloud or a tree.

What strengthened me, for you was lethal.
You mixed up farewell to an epoch with the beginning of a new one,
Inspiration of hatred with lyrical beauty,
Blind force with accomplished shape.

Here is the valley of shallow Polish rivers. And an immense bridge
Going into white fog. Here is a broken city,
And the wind throws the screams of gulls on your grave
When I am talking with you.

What is poetry which does not save
Nations or people?
A connivance with official lies,
A song of drunkards whose throats will be cut in a moment,
Readings for sophomore girls.
That I wanted good poetry without knowing it,
That I discovered, late, its salutary aim,
In this and only this I find salvation.

They used to pour millet on graves or poppy seeds
To feed the dead who would come disguised as birds.
I put this book here for you, who once lived
So that you should visit us no more.

--Czeslaw Milosz, Warsaw, 1945

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From r_loden  Sat Jul  7 21:02:01 2007
From: r_loden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:02:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at
	jacketmagazine 
In-Reply-To: <cc6.15a43961.33c17deb@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c7c0fb$97cb8410$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>

But Sam (hi Sam)--

Had Goodman Brown fallen asleep in the forest and only dreamed a wild dream
of a witch-meeting?

	
	In a message dated 7/7/2007 5:59:56 PM Central Standard Time,
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: 
	

		http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml
		
		
		George Bowering
		Maxine Chernoff
		Katie Degentesh
		Gabriel Gudding
		Rachel Loden
		Ange Mlinko
		K. Silem Mohammad
		D. A. Powell
		Ron Silliman
		Gary Sullivan



	"A grave and dark-clad company," quoth Goodman Brown. 





From jforjames  Sun Jul  8 19:50:02 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:50:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Darwish back in Israel
Message-ID: <8C98FD1D6101678-17D8-CFFD@MBLK-R09.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/877502.html

Palestinian national poet Mahmoud Darwish set to return to Haifa for first time since 1971 
?
By Yoav Stern 
?
Palestinian national poet and writer Mahmoud Darwish is expected to take part in a literary event in Haifa, for the first time since leaving Israel more than 35 years ago.


Hadash Secretary Iman Ouda told Haaretz yesterday that the Defense Ministry has permitted Darwish to attend the event at Mt. Carmel Auditorium on July 15.

Hadash said the event, held jointly with Masharaf magazine, will focus on the poet and his work. Darwish worked and wrote in Haifa for many years. 


Darwish was born in 1941 in the village of Al-Birwah, which was destroyed in 1948. His family stayed in Lebanon briefly as refugees and then returned to the village of Jedida in the Galilee. Darwish lived in Israel until 1971, when he left for Moscow to take a course given by the Communist Party. He did not return to Israel to live, probably due to persecution by the establishment.

?


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From amyhappens  Mon Jul  9 16:59:58 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW:  Joe Book Advice
In-Reply-To: <203004.7935.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <67315.3578.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Dear Poets,
   
  The below message is a request for info from Ron Padgett.  Please backchannel your suggestions to amyhappens at yahoo.com so that I can forward them all in one email to
 him.

And thank you for any help on the matter!
   
  Amy


The publisher of Joe Brainard's forthcoming THE NANCY BOOK (a
 collection of his Nancy images, as well as his Nancy writings, with an
 introduction by Ann Lauterbach) has asked me for the following info, and I'm
 relaying the question to you, since you know 100 times more about it than
 I do:
 
 Names/contact info for various blogs, listservs and sites that have
 had an interest in or featured Joe's work in particular, New York School
 work in general, etc. Also, names of on-line literary and art reviews,
 individual bloggers, etc. who you know and you think would be excited
 about the book so that they can link to Siglio and/or talk about the
 book.
 
 Can you get back to me within the next few days?
 
 Thanks.
 
 Ron


       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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From jforjames  Wed Jul 11 13:59:14 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:59:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Li Bai", the opera
Message-ID: <8C991FC538DBCDC-1720-82F0@webmail-da01.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6306657

Poetic justice for "Li Bai"
Opera brings to life a Chinese verse master
By Kyle MacMillan Denver Post Fine Arts Critic
Article Last Updated: 07/06/2007 01:59:28 PM MDT


If the name Li Bai means little in the West, the Tang Dynasty poet stands as tall in the Chinese cultural consciousness as William Shakespeare does in the English- speaking world. 


Long a fan of his expressive, sometimes playful writings, Diana Liao conceived the idea of an opera based on his life in 2000 and set about writing a libretto in conjunction with playwright Xu Ying. 


Seven years later, the fruits of her labor and those of dozens of other Chinese and American participants in the cross-cultural project will be unveiled when Central City Opera's world premiere of Guo Wenjing's "Poet Li Bai" opens Saturday. 


The work comes at a pivotal moment, when the surging Chinese classical-music scene is asserting itself internationally, and the West seems hungry for the creative reinvigoration that can blossom from the cross-fertilization of these two ancient cultures. 


"Poet Li Bai" is part of a series of new operas by the first group of composers after the Cultural Revolution, including Tan Dun's "The First Emperor," which debuted in December at the Metropolitan Opera amid a flurry of publicity. 



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From jforjames  Thu Jul 12 08:50:42 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:50:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Booth obit
Message-ID: <8C9929A63EDA3A3-7E4-A507@webmail-db16.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/arts/09booth.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Philip Booth, a Shy Poet Rooted in New England Life, Dead at 81 
?
By ROJA HEYDARPOUR
Published: July 9, 2007

Philip Booth, a poet known for his explorations of existence and New England in an intense, sparse style, died on July 2 in Hanover, N.H. He was 81 and had split his time between Hanover and Castine, Me., for many years. 


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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 12 10:55:18 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:55:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Pablo Neruda
Message-ID: <469640D6.5070509@opus40.org>

WALKING AROUND

It so happens I am sick of being a man.
And it happens that I walk into tailor shops and movie houses
dried up, waterproof, like a swan made of felt
steering my way in a water of wombs and ashes.

The smell of barbershops makes me break into hoarse sobs.
The only thing I want is to lie still like stones or wool.
The only thing I want is to see no more stores, no gardens,
no more goods, no spectacles, no elevators.

It so happens that I am sick of my feet and my nails
and my hair and my shadow.
It so happens I am sick of being a man.

Still it would be marvelous
to terrify a law clerk with a cut lily,
or kill a nun with a blow on the ear.
It would be great
to go through the streets with a green knife
letting out yells until I died of the cold.

I don?t want to go on being a root in the dark,
insecure, stretched out, shivering with sleep,
going on down, into the moist guts of the earth,
taking in and thinking, eating every day.

I don?t want so much misery.
I don?t want to go on as a root and a tomb,
alone under the ground, a warehouse with corpses,
half frozen, dying of grief.

That?s why Monday, when it sees me coming
with my convict face, blazes up like gasoline,
and it howls on its way like a wounded wheel,
and leaves tracks full of warm blood leading toward the night.

And it pushes me into certain corners, into some moist houses,
into hospitals where the bones fly out the window,
into shoeshops that smell like vinegar,
and certain streets hideous as cracks in the skin.

There are sulphur-colored birds, and hideous intestines
hanging over the doors of houses that I hate,
and there are false teeth forgotten in a coffeepot,
there are mirrors
that ought to have wept from shame and terror,
there are umbrellas everywhere, and venoms, and umbilical cords.

I stroll along serenely, with my eyes, my shoes,
my rage, forgetting everything,
I walk by, going through office buildings and orthopedic shops,
and courtyards with washing hanging from the line:
underwear, towels and shirts from which slow
dirty tears are falling.





-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jforjames  Thu Jul 12 16:46:48 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:46:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slam, 2007 in Austin
Message-ID: <8C992DCE70AB8B8-D40-BCE8@WEBMAIL-RE17.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.austinslam.com/nps07/press.php

National Poetry Slam
August 7-11, in Austin TX
________________________________________________________________________
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From jforjames  Fri Jul 13 15:10:16 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:10:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey  
Message-ID: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.todayinliterature.com/index.asp
?
Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey? 


?On this day in 1798 William Wordsworth finished writing "Lines Composed a Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey," the poem being worked out in his head during a four-day walking tour? 


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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 13 15:24:55 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:24:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/13/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.todayinliterature.com/index.asp
>
>  Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
>
>   On this day in 1798 William Wordsworth finished writing "Lines Composed a
> Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey," the poem being worked out in his head during
> a four-day walking tour

Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry. It's a
sign of something, I am sure, that I feel nearly ashamed at admitting
I still care for a lot of Wordsworth's poems. How quiet and irrelevant
I am.

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 13 18:11:45 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:11:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think "Tintern Abbey" was voted all-time best poem in English around the 
turn of the last century, Chris.  I don't remember any details.  Anyway, I 
think it's the best extended lyric I know.  And a contender for the best 
poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with 
twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")

--Bob 





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 13 18:51:57 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:51:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707131551y67f94206tb6a6471ce7b997d8@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/13/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> a contender for the best
> poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with
> twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")

Good try, but you won't hook me with that lure this time!

I might be coming around about "lighght" but not the others. Yet :)

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 13 20:45:13 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:45:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com><9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com><0
	01801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707131551y67f94206tb6a6471ce7b997d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001c7c5b0$3f655530$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 7/13/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> a contender for the best
>> poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with
>> twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")
> 
> Good try, but you won't hook me with that lure this time!
> 
> I might be coming around about "lighght" but not the others. Yet :)
> 
> c

Better watch out for the slippery slope!

--Bob




From JforJames  Sun Jul 15 21:30:24 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:30:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
Message-ID: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

Thanks  for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time  that really got me interested in poetry.


Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that poem  
doesn't know what poetry is.
 
Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister  Bridge." 
Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above a  scene and 
taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. Wordsworth's nice  outward turn 
at the end, "And all that mighty heart is lying still." 
 
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Opus40-01  Sun Jul 15 21:38:10 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:38:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
References: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469ACC02.8000900@opus40.org>

Only tangentially relevant, but the poem that really stands out for me 
as the quintessence of Romanticism is Coleridge's "This Lime Tree Bower 
My Prison."

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
>
>     Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
>     centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry.
>
> Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that 
> poem doesn't know what poetry is.
>  
> Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister 
> Bridge." Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above 
> a scene and taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. 
> Wordsworth's nice outward turn at the end, "And all that mighty heart 
> is lying still."
>  
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Mon Jul 16 14:53:51 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:53:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7c7da$acf231a0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

?Tinturn Abbey? is another Greater Romantic Lyric. The piece pretends to be
written in the present, goes from mild observation to a heightened energetic
state of meditation, back to a milder phase of observation, then up one last
time to the highest meditative state. Sometimes they end, as Coleridge?s
?Frost at Midnight,? falling ? back into a state of lower energy combining
observation and meditation. Right to associate with other poetry from a
prominence, and that goes back to the Hill Poets of the 18th century. Braced
by the new psychological awareness that the mind works in associative
strings, these poets? narrators climbed hills in their poems and then
described the grand landscapes they saw below. Interesting poems. All
pretended to be written on the spot like ?Tintern Abbey.? As was Arnold?s
?Stanzas from the Grande Chartreuse,? another poem of ascent. I think it was
the Romanic belief that the unfrettered associative mind in conjunction with
the world has itself aesthetic benefit. Later Ginsberg wrote, ?Mind is
shapely,? I think giving voice to the same thing. Of course, the stance was
_as though_ it was improvised. As ?Tintern Abbey.? 

 

Presumptively improvisational poetry, one which alludes to its own immediate
nature, is very interesting. You?d think that Whitman would have relished in
it, but he didn?t much (?by these tears made a boy again?). Ginsberg and
Antin probably do the ?real thing,? more or less. Who else?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 8:30 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey

 

In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry.

Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that poem
doesn't know what poetry is.

 

Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister Bridge."
Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above a scene and
taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. Wordsworth's nice outward
turn at the end, "And all that mighty heart is lying still." 

 

Finnegan





  _____  

Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> .

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From pmetres  Mon Jul 16 16:08:21 2007
From: pmetres (Philip Metres)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:08:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] what's new on behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com
Message-ID: <20070716160821.AMU51025@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Here's what's new on www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com 

If you've got a poem or essay on war, peace, and the cultural work of poetry that you'd like included/reviewed, send it along to me. 

July 

--Bob Perelman's "Shock and Awe" and Dick Cheney's Mind/A 21st Century "Wichita Vortex Sutra" 
--Poets Against the War reading in Iowa from November 2005 
--Hayan Charara's "Usage" 
--Dunya Mikhail 
--Poems of Peace, Poems of War/Chicago Humanities Festival 2006 
--Voices from Guantanamo/The Cultural Work of Poetry 
--Sinan Antoon, Iraqi Poet, on "Democracy Now" 
--Larissa Shmailo's "Exorcism"/Found Poems, Incantations 
--Samih al-Qasim's "End of a Talk with a Jailer"/Walls and the Security State continued 
--David-Baptiste Chirot's Raw War/The Walls of the Security State 
--Meeting Walt at Thirty-Seven/My Birthday Today 
--Barrett Watten & Carl Sandburg's "Buttons" 
--Peace Signs 
--d.a.levy & the turn toward concrete poetry 
? June (10) 
--Randall Jarrell's "The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" 
--Nguyen Duy's "Oh Stone" and John Bradley's "Bosnia Bosnia" 
--Len Sousa's Poetry/Music Mashups: Lowell's "For th Union Dead" 
--Baring Witness: Donna Sheehan and "For the Fifty" 
--Penny Allen and the National Campaign for a Peace Tax Fund 
--Rebecca Solnit and Reasons for Hope 
--Gambling on Non-Violence: An Interview with Ralph DiGia 
--From Vietnam to September 11th: An Interview with Robert Bly 
--"Poetry and the Peace Movement 
--Opening Salvo 


peaceout, 


Philip Metres
Associate Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
fax: (216) 397-1723
http://www.philipmetres.com
http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com






From jforjames  Tue Jul 17 17:00:21 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:00:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Forward nominees
Message-ID: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6902203.stm

Activist on list for poetry prize? 
Mapanje's first poetry book was banned in Malawi, his home nation 

A former political prisoner and human rights activist from Malawi has been nominated for the Forward Prize, which promotes contemporary poetry. 

Jack Mapanje was detained for three years until his release in 1991, and his most recent work, Beast of Nalunga, is shortlisted for best collection. 


Also in the running for the ?10,000 award is Luke Kennard, 26, the youngest nominee in the history of the prize. 

Eavan Boland, Sean O'Brien, Adam Thorpe and John Burnside complete the list. 


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From jforjames  Tue Jul 17 17:13:56 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:13:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>


http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
On the edge, not of the edge
By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
Posted: 7/17/07

Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the masses. 


"[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."


Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that doesn't require a literary genius to decode.


"It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."

?

________________________________________________________________________
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From AlMaginnes  Tue Jul 17 17:17:39 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:17:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <cf4.10546340.33ce8bf3@aol.com>

I get the straightforward, but where's the  mystical?



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 17 18:14:50 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:14:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Forward nominees
In-Reply-To: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469D3F5A.800@opus40.org>

A good site on Mapanje, with audio.

http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoet.do?poetId=5495#

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6902203.stm
> Activist on list for poetry prize 
> Mapanje's first poetry book was banned in Malawi, his home nation
>
> A former political prisoner and human rights activist from Malawi has 
> been nominated for the Forward Prize, which promotes contemporary poetry.
>
> Jack Mapanje was detained for three years until his release in 1991, 
> and his most recent work, Beast of Nalunga, is shortlisted for best 
> collection.
>
> Also in the running for the ?10,000 award is Luke Kennard, 26, the 
> youngest nominee in the history of the prize.
> Eavan Boland, Sean O'Brien, Adam Thorpe and John Burnside complete the 
> list.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 17 18:19:20 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:19:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>

"I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."

Yeah, me too. But I don't necessarily write thinking "what will the 
greatest number of people relate to it?" I'm satisfied if I can fill up 
a stateroom, like the Marx Brothers.

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
> On the edge, not of the edge
> By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
> Posted: 7/17/07
>
> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of 
> alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to 
> the masses.
>
> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel 
> rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow 
> American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American 
> poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."
>
> Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites 
> readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that 
> doesn't require a literary genius to decode.
>
> "It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate 
> to my poem to be invited into it."
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jfq  Tue Jul 17 19:12:04 2007
From: jfq (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0707171612040.19553@hymn08.u.washington.edu>

yawn. I've had enough of anti-intellectualism. particularly in the arts.


On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 jforjames at aol.com wrote:

>
> http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
> On the edge, not of the edge
> By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
> Posted: 7/17/07
>
> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the masses.
>
>
> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."
>
>
> Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that doesn't require a literary genius to decode.
>
>
> "It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."
>
> ?
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
>






From gejs1  Tue Jul 17 19:54:30 2007
From: gejs1 (Gerald Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:54:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
	<469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000d01c7c8cd$d1956bf0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b>

>> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of 
>> alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the 
>> masses.

Seems as though he would like to place those of us who reject the
major keys for minor chords, who choose universals for particulars,
who process a sometimes forbidding bodies of work resistant to
sweeping pronouncements and vague generalizations--in a ghetto.
Seems as though in doing so, he's simply calling to the yahoo.

>> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather 
>> than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American 
>> poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is 
>> done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."

Would be interesting to know here how D.G. came to poetry in the
first place. As creatures we have been given much, and when we
come to poetry, authentic poetry, much is demanded because of its
refusal to separate intellect from feeling, or complexity from clarity,
whether it be found in Ronald Johnson, William Bronk or Robert Frost.

Gerald Schwartz





From bobgrumman  Tue Jul 17 21:17:21 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:17:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com><469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>
	<000d01c7c8cd$d1956bf0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b>
Message-ID: <029501c7c8d9$6639c930$48fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather 
>>> than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American 
>>> poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is 
>>> done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."

Sounds like Goetsch never experienced the triumph of solving a puzzle.  Not 
that any good poem should only give an engagent a chance at that, and not 
that every good poem needs to, but calling for the elimination of poems that 
do strikes me like calling for the elimination metaphor.

But, yes, yawn.

--Bob





From Rsgwynn1  Tue Jul 17 20:24:29 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:24:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:16:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Sounds like Goetsch never experienced the triumph of solving a puzzle.  Not 
> 
> that any good poem should only give an engagent a chance at that, and not 
> that every good poem needs to, but calling for the elimination of poems that 
> 
> do strikes me like calling for the elimination metaphor.
> 
> But, yes, yawn.
> 
> --Bob
> 
Most puzzles have solutions, which reward the solver.  Some poems don't, 
which is the problem here.  There's no joy in being endlessly frustrated.   
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From halvard  Tue Jul 17 23:12:33 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:12:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>

But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
as something requiring a solution.

Hal

"I can't understand it. I can't even understand
  the people who can understand it."
                    --Queen Juliana of the Netherlands

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 17, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Most puzzles have solutions, which reward the solver.  Some poems  
> don't, which is the problem here.  There's no joy in being  
> endlessly frustrated.
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From chris.lott  Tue Jul 17 23:48:22 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:48:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
> as something requiring a solution.

Seems to me it's just another way of saying that there are poems out
there that don't provide any satisfaction or happiness or emotional
return or whatever you want to insert at the end of that sentence. You
can turn every one of them around on its ear and claim that's not what
poetry is about, but obviously to some readers each is and those
readers find what they are looking for in some poems and not in
others.

Obviously, some poems do reward searching for solutions or R.S. would
never be happy. If it isn't wrong to derive some satisfaction that way
it is just as right to notice that some poems don't work by that
criterion. Even Hal, I imagine, finds some poems less than satisfying
(or whatever adjective you want to use, just to presumptively avoid
that quibble). And assuming that you do (otherwise why not publish
them all?) is there any productivity to just reversing your
observation and saying "perhaps the problem is in looking for [insert
your adjective here]"?

In other words, I don't think looking for a way to solve a poem is
necessarily wrong... it just isn't always right.

c



From bobgrumman  Wed Jul 18 07:59:07 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:59:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
  as something requiring a solution.


  Hal

  As opposed to what?  Looking at it and going, "Goo Goo?"  Any artwork HAS to contain some meaning that an engagent needs to extract to enjoy.  It can be any kind of meaning, not just a scientific meaning. If you want to use some other word than "solve" to call the act of extracting meaning from a poem, fine--but it's still a form of solving. 

  As for a poem being in part or wholly a puzzle, I don't follow Sam's point.  To me, he's just saying that the device of puzzle in a poem, if misused, is a bad thing.  Of course.  So is metaphor or any other device.  
   
  --Bob G.
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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 09:21:38 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:21:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
	<002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <7104BE98-2E23-4EC5-983E-E68F429ADAFB@earthlink.net>

I don't think that meaning is something to be extracted from
a poem, as though pulling a tooth. It seems to me that its more
like a collaboration between poet, reader, context, etc. Even
then, it's more variable than fixed.

Hal

"A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and
   to whom nothing must be given."
                      --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 18, 2007, at 6:59 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
>
> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
> as something requiring a solution.
>
> Hal
>
> As opposed to what?  Looking at it and going, "Goo Goo?"  Any  
> artwork HAS to contain some meaning that an engagent needs to  
> extract to enjoy.  It can be any kind of meaning, not just a  
> scientific meaning. If you want to use some other word than "solve"  
> to call the act of extracting meaning from a poem, fine--but it's  
> still a form of solving.
>
> As for a poem being in part or wholly a puzzle, I don't follow  
> Sam's point.  To me, he's just saying that the device of puzzle in  
> a poem, if misused, is a bad thing.  Of course.  So is metaphor or  
> any other device.
>
> --Bob G.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 10:02:21 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:02:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
	<9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B211DDD6-7ABF-4671-98E2-86D6AB31A258@earthlink.net>

I don't think looking for solutions is wrong, Chris, just
that they can be frustrating. And frustration's not necessarily
a bad thing either. I enjoy doing crossword puzzles and
sudoku, and find them frustrating (and don't always find
my way through or out of them). On the other hand,
not finishing a puzzle of some sort (not solving it so to
say) has never bothered me much. I also don't mind
journeys that end up somewhere other than the place I
started out for.

So, in short, I agree with you.

Hal

"Open the mirage that calls you."
		--Philip Lamantia

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:48 PM, Chris Lott wrote:

> On 7/17/07, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
>> as something requiring a solution.
>
> Seems to me it's just another way of saying that there are poems out
> there that don't provide any satisfaction or happiness or emotional
> return or whatever you want to insert at the end of that sentence. You
> can turn every one of them around on its ear and claim that's not what
> poetry is about, but obviously to some readers each is and those
> readers find what they are looking for in some poems and not in
> others.
>
> Obviously, some poems do reward searching for solutions or R.S. would
> never be happy. If it isn't wrong to derive some satisfaction that way
> it is just as right to notice that some poems don't work by that
> criterion. Even Hal, I imagine, finds some poems less than satisfying
> (or whatever adjective you want to use, just to presumptively avoid
> that quibble). And assuming that you do (otherwise why not publish
> them all?) is there any productivity to just reversing your
> observation and saying "perhaps the problem is in looking for [insert
> your adjective here]"?
>
> In other words, I don't think looking for a way to solve a poem is
> necessarily wrong... it just isn't always right.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Wed Jul 18 12:53:14 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:53:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unpacking My Toothbrush
Message-ID: <8AEC28EA-E313-4238-8160-1F81984103DF@earthlink.net>

Sonnet:  Unpacking My Toothbrush

Long an anti-dentite, I?ve searched high and low for post-
consumerist dentistry, coming to believe, after many
years, that such a thing may not indeed be possible, or
even feasible. Traditional relationships leave open few

avenues, aside from this thicket of language, that even
are worth exploring. Digital dentistry seemed, once, to be
promising. ?Open, please. Now rinse.? But the tooth
lodged in my forehead continued to cause problems:

blinding headaches, for example. My parents? first
teaching to me: ?Watch where you?re going.? But then
how I navigate, more than what I create, became more
and more central to my living. Quantity trumps quality.

Even at my age, I have more teeth than I will ever use,
more fat than I shall ever, ever come to chew.


                         (after Kenneth Goldsmith)

[http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2007/07/ 
i_am_unpacking_my_digital_libr.html#more]



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From jforjames  Wed Jul 18 13:29:42 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:29:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <696182.3770.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>

Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
the 'Ars Poetica Library', 
well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis?which is somewhat along the same lines...

http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm


1) Please list 5-10 books that have been most ?essential? to you, as a poet.
2) Please write some comments about your list. You may want to single out specific poems or passages from the books, discuss how you made your decisions or provide thoughts about the importance of these books in your life. Feel free to write as much as you would like.
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From r_loden  Wed Jul 18 14:51:21 2007
From: r_loden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:51:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Announcing Jacket 33 - July 2007"
Message-ID: <004101c7c96c$a2d0c3b0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>


"Announcing Jacket 33 - July 2007"

Guest editor: Pam Brown 

http://jacketmagazine.com/


========== Feature ==========

Gordon Ball: Unknown Collaborators: photos from the world of Allen Ginsberg
and his many friends among the Beats, from 1969 to Ginsberg's death in 1997 


========== Feature ==========

Pieces on "Pieces of Air in the Epic", by Brenda Hillman: Barbara Claire
Freeman, Editor.

"The generic convention of the book review is monologic; however nuanced and
subtle, the constraints of the form typically allow the inclusion of only
one perspective. This collection of short texts on the poems in Brenda
Hillman's Pieces of Air in the Epic intends first, to present a kind of
collective 'book review,' that is, a form of writing about poems that
demands a plurality of individual voices; and second, to provide a forum in
which poets respond to and explore a particular poem." - B.C.F.

Introduction, by Barbara Claire Freeman
Marjorie Welish
Graham Foust
Evie Shockley
C.D. Wright
Forrest Gander
Carol Snow
Robert Hass
Michael Davidson
Claudia Keelan
Robert Kaufman
Norma Cole
Marjorie Perloff
Geoffrey G. O'Brien
Juliana Spahr
Calvin Bedient
Reginald Shepherd
Cole Swensen
Elizabeth Robinson
Nathaniel Tarn
Bin Ramke
Donald Revell
Patricia Dienstfrey
Michael Palmer

Brenda Hillman was born in Tucson, Arizona in 1951. After receiving her B.A.
at Pomona College, she attended the University of Iowa, where she received
her M.F.A. in 1976.She has published seven collections of poetry: White
Dress (1985), Fortress (1989), Death Tractates (1992), Bright Existence
(1993), Loose Sugar (1997) and Cascadia (2001), Pieces of Air in the Epic
(2005); all published by Wesleyan University Press. She resides in the San
Francisco Bay Area; she is married and has a daughter.


========== Reviews ==========

Adam Aitken: "The Accidental Cage" by Michelle Cahill 

Stan Apps: "Folly", by Nada Gordon. 

Stan Apps: "My Angie Dickinson", by Michael Magee 

Cynthia Arrieu-King: "The Man Suit" by Zachary Schomburg 

Bridget Brooklyn: "Passion", by Brane Mozetic, translated by Tamara Soban 

Andrew J. Browne: "Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing after
the New York School", edited by Daniel Kane. 

Stephen Cope: "City Eclogue" by Ed Roberson 

Penelope Cray: "The Wanton Sublime:A Florilegium of Whethers and Wonders" by
Anna Rabinowitz 

Mark Dickinson: "Leaves of Field": with "Open Woods" and "Moving Woods".by
Peter Larkin 

Patrick James Dunagan: "Remembering Joel Oppenheimer" by Robert Bertholf 

Martin Duwell: "Sugar Hits" by Philip Hammial 

Michael Farrell: "Phosphorescence" by Graeme Miles 

Cliff Fell: Eliot Weinberger, "What happened here" (second edition) and
"Muhammad", both published by Verso, 2006. 

Norbert Francis: Tosa Motokiyu (edited by Kent Johnson and Javier Alvarez).
"Also, With My Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords: Araki Yasusada's
Letters in English" 

Noah Eli Gordon and Erik Anderson: Conversational Noise: Some Talk on "Some
Notes on My Programming", by Anselm Berrigan 

Anne Heide: "hidde violeth i dde violet", by Kathleen Fraser 

Cole Heinowitz: "Exchanges of Earth and Sky", by Jack Collom 

Tom Hibbard: "Somebody Blew Up America and Other Poems", Amiri Baraka 

Ben Hickman: "Remnants of Hannah" by Dara Wier 

Carlos Hiraldo: "Unprotected Texts: Selected Poems, 1978-2006" by Thomas
Beckett 

Craig Johnson: "Poem for the End of Time and Other Poems" by Noelle Kocot 

Paul Kahn: "I Was Blown Back", by Norman Fischer 

Carl Kelleher: "Shake" by Joshua Beckman 

Jake Kennedy: "The Men" by Lisa Robertson 

Marc Kipniss: "The Bird Hoverer", by Aaron Belz 

Louise Landes Levi: "Sunswumthru a Building", by Bob Arnold 

Michelle Mahoney: "The Pajamaist", by Matthew Zapruder 

Jill M. Neziri: "Forth a Raven", by Christina Davis 

Michael Quattrone: "Overnight", by Paul Violi 

Dr Mark Seton: "The Kamikaze Mind", by Richard James Allen 

Rob Stanton: "A panic that can still come upon me" by Peter Gizzi 

Paul Stephens: "The External Combustion Engine" by Michael Ives 

James Stuart: "From Now" by Johanna Drucker 

Ezra Tessler: "The Stamp of Class: Reflections on Poetry and Social Class"
by Gary Lenhart 

Dan Thomas-Glass: "Girly Man" and "World on Fire", both by Charles Bernstein


Marjorie Welish: "The Totality for Kids", by Joshua Clover 
Interviews 


========== Interviews ==========

Kathleen Fraser in conversation with Sarah Rosenthal, 2007:
"SR: Silence has been a central trope in your writing since early on. It
carries a range of meanings, from erasure to grief and loss to the
spaciousness of an open field. Perhaps we could trace some of the ways in
which silence has come up in your work over time." 

George Bowering in conversation with Rachel Loden: Like a Radio in the Dark:
An Email Interview, 2007

Alison Knowles in conversation with Elizabeth-Jane Burnett, September 2006.
Alison Knowles is a visual artist known for her soundworks, installations,
performances, publications and association with Fluxus, the experimental
avant-garde group formally founded in 1962. 

Eleni Sikelianos, author of The California Poem, in conversation with Jesse
Morse 

Catherine Wagner in conversation with Nathan Smith, 13 April 2007 


========== Articles ==========

James Wallenstein: Ninnies and the Critics: "A Nest of Ninnies" by John
Ashbery and James Schuyler 

Geoffrey Cruickshank- Hagenbuckle with Alexander Nouvel: ZAP! (Zukofsky,
Apollinaire, and the X Men) 

Vernon Frazer and Kirpal Gordon:
Who We Are Now:
A Retrospective of Michael Rothenberg
(60 pages) 

Aram Saroyan: Contretemps: A Minimalist Parable 


========== Feature: Humor in Poetry ==========

The Dangerfield Conundrum: A Roundtable on Humor in Poetry - 80 pages of
discussion edited from 200 pages of postings to the HumPo List by Rachel
Loden and K. Silem Mohammad, and featuring the voices of:

George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Katie Degentesh
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan 

The Dangerfield Files, edited by Rachel Loden: poems from the HumPo List: 

Rachel Loden: Introduction
George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan


========== Feature ==========

Mark Weiss: Jos? Mart?: "Jos? Juli?n Mart? y P?rez (1853-1895) may not be
unique as a political poet-martyr (one thinks of Byron and Lorca), but he
must have been one of the most politically involved. The very model of the
committed artist, he was 42 when he died in one of the first engagements of
the second Cuban War of Independence, of which he had been chief
propagandist and one of the principal planners. He had spent his entire
adult life in exile, chiefly in Mexico City and New York." 


========== Poems ==========

Mary Jo Bang: Three poems 

Ken Bolton: Three poems: An Australian Suburban Garden; EUROPE; For various
movie directors 

Michelle Cahill: Three poems: The Accidental Cage; Manhattan; Poppies 

Justin Clemens: "The Mundiad", Book IV 

Kelvin Corcoran: Three poems from 'Ulysses in the Car' 

Alfred Corn: Two poems: Page and Cave; Trunk Show 

Wystan Curnow: poem: Max 

Norman Fischer: Formal Terms 

Robert Gibbons: Two poems: That Internal World; At the End of Writing 

Anna Gibbs: Culpable Blindness 

John Hennessy: Coney Island Pilgrims 

Katia Kapovich: Two poems: To Whom It May Concern; The Seventh String 

Burt Kimmelman: Two poems: House, Normandy; Crumbs upon the Table 

Rachel Loden: Three poems: Props to the Twentieth Century; Dick of the Dead;
The Pure of Heart, Those Murderers 

Rupert Loydell: Two poems: The Secret Life of Mist; The Secret Life of Light


Norman MacAfee: I Am Astro Place 

Mark Mordue: Things That Year 

John Muckle: Three Poems: Elizabeth Bishop; Nothing Wrong; Cyclomotors 

Marc Nasdor: Five poems 

Simon Robb: Excerpt from "Jane Fonda's Temple of Literature" 

Sam Sampson: Three poems: The Ship Beautiful; Reel; Diagram 

Don Share: On being philosophical 

Jaya Savige: Two poems 

Mark Schafer translates five poems by David Huerta 

Jeffrey Side: Extracts from "Carrier of the Seed" 

Stephen Sturgeon: Two poems: Friday; Fired 

Paul Violi: Finish These Sentences 


========== The next issue of Jacket 
========== is due in October. 

>From now until the Northern Harvest Moon on 26 September the Jacket editors
preserve their creative energies by entering a profound state of marsupial
hibernation. Please do not disturb them! 

========== Jacket magazine: 
========== Editor: John Tranter 
========== Associate Editor: Pam Brown





From amyhappens  Wed Jul 18 16:13:38 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Next Friday in Brooklyn  --->
In-Reply-To: <20070716160821.AMU51025@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <885373.93188.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

MiPOesias presents
[http://www.mipoesias.com] 
  
     ~~   RICHARD PEABODY ~ NICOLE STEINBERG ~ CATE PEEBLES  ~~

Friday, July 27, 2007 @ 7:00 PM

~~~

Richard Peabody, a prolific poet, fiction writer and editor, is an experienced teacher and important activist in the Washington , D.C. community of letters. He is the founder and co-editor of Gargoyle magazine and editor (or co-editor) of fourteen anthologies including Mondo Barbie, Mondo Elvis, Conversations with Gore Vidal, A Different Beat: Writings by Women of the Beat Generation, Alice Redux, Sex & Chocolate, Grace and Gravity: Fiction by Washington Area Women and Enhanced Gravity: More Fiction by Washington Area Women. He is the author of the novella Sugar Mountain, two short story collections, and six poetry collections. He is currently working on Electric Grace: Still More Fiction by Washington Area Women (forthcoming 2007). Peabody teaches at The Writer's Center and at Johns Hopkins University, where he has been presented the Faculty Award for Distinguished Professional Achievement. He lives and works in the Washington, D.C. area. You can find out more at:
 www.wikipedia.org and www.gargoylemagazine.com.
   
   
  
Nicole Steinberg is the Co-Editor of LIT and Associate Editor of BOMB Magazine. Her poetry has appeared or is forthcoming in Gulf Coast, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel?Second Floor, PMS, Lumina, and Half Drunk Muse, and she writes for music webzine Axis of Live. She's the founder, curator and host of EARSHOT, a Brooklyn-based reading series dedicated to the work and presence of emerging writers in the New York City area.  She lives in Queens, New York.


Cate Peebles was born in Pittsburgh and currently lives in Brooklyn. She is a graduate of Reed College and is currently enrolled in the MFA program at the New School. She works as an editorial assistant on an oral biography of George Plimpton that will be published by Random House in 2008.
  ~~~~~~~~

STAIN BAR
766 Grand Street Brooklyn , NY 11211
(L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 
718/387-7840
http://www.stainbar.com/

~~~~~~~~


Hope you'll stop by!
Amy King
MiPO Host
http://www.mipoesias.com 


**please forward**
**apologies for cross-posting**
       wrote:","On 6/29/07, \u003cb class\u003dgmail_sendername\>Janet Holmes\u003c/b\> <holmes.janet at gmail.com> wrote:","googlegroups.com",,,"\u003cpussipo.googlegroups.com\>","",0,"pussipo at googlegroups.com","\u003c38a93cff0706291955w4556859s521d4bb960da3634 at mail.gmail.com\>",0,,0,"In reply to \"Tonight in Brooklyn\"",0] ); D(["mb","Say hi to Ethan for me!",1] );  //-->     
   

       
---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
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From amyhappens  Wed Jul 18 16:26:10 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MiPO Films
In-Reply-To: <885373.93188.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <881984.59558.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

 
  http://mipovideo.blogspot.com/2007/07/stacy-szymaszek-and-ethan-paquin.html#links
   
   
  Description: Stacy Szymaszek and Ethan Paquin MiPOesias Reading @ Stain Bar Williamsburg, Brooklyn June 28, 2007 ETHAN PAQUIN is author of My Thieves (Salt, 2007), The Violence (Ahsahta Press, 2005), Accumulus (Salt, 2003) and The Makeshift (UK: Stride, 2002). He lives and teaches in Buffalo, NY, and returns to seacoast New Hampshire every summer. 

http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/paquin_ethan.html

Stacy Szymaszek is the author of Emptied of All Ships (Litmus Press, 2005) as well as several chapbooks. After working at Woodland Pattern Book Center in Milwaukee, WI for many years she moved to New York to be the Program Coordinator at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. This year she is also the Monday Night Reading curator. She edited Gam: A Survey of Great Lakes Writing which lived for 4 issues, and now works as co-editor or contributing editor on various projects including Instance Press and Fascicle. Her current work in process is called "hyper glossia," parts of which can be found on the internet, in a Belladonna* chap book and forthcoming from Hot Whiskey Press. 

http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/szymaszek_stacey.html
   
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 18:29:39 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:29:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] High praise for David Shapiro
Message-ID: <105595FE-1FA0-41A8-BE3F-81BE38595108@earthlink.net>

High praise indeed for David Shapiro:

http://www.forward.com/articles/11169/


Hal

"I loathe writing. On the other hand I'm a great
  believer in money. Often when I couldn't pay the
  grocery bill, Providence intervened and I don't
  mean my natal city, Providence, which can be
  counted on for nothing."
		--S. J. Perelman

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


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From editor  Wed Jul 18 20:10:57 2007
From: editor (David Baratier)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:10:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <200707181600.l6IG05KQ011272@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <314123.11256.qm@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

cool, we published Doug's first collection


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From Opus40-01  Wed Jul 18 20:58:00 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:58:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469EB718.3060809@opus40.org>

I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on it. 
I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the 
Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived 
somewhere accessible?

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called 
> 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
> the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is 
> somewhat along the same lines...
>
> http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>
> 1) Please list 5-10 books that have been most ?essential? to you, as a 
> poet.
> 2) Please write some comments about your list. You may want to single 
> out specific poems or passages from the books, discuss how you made 
> your decisions or provide thoughts about the importance of these books 
> in your life. Feel free to write as much as you would like.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Wed Jul 18 21:01:27 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:01:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others Yannis Ritsos
In-Reply-To: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469EB7E7.9080405@opus40.org>

This gem comes from the website Jim just referenced, about the Peter 
Davis book.

?The Third One?:

               The three of them sat before the window looking at the sea.
               One talked about the sea. The second listened. The third
               Neither spoke nor listened; he was deep in the sea; he 
floated.
               Behind the windowpanes, his movements were slow, clear
               In the thin pale blue. He was exploring a sunken ship.
               He rang the dead bell for the watch; fine bubbles
               Rose bursting with a soft sound?suddenly,
               ?Did he drown?? asked one; the other said, ?He drowned.? 
The third one
               looked back at them helpless from the bottom of the sea, the
               way one looks at drowned people.






From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 09:40:44 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:40:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>

 
Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point this  week 
I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that  came in after the 
first version was posted on this list. I put it the first  version out on my 
blog...but maybe when it's more filled out (if  ever) we can find a better home 
for it, perhaps on Anny's  website.
 
See March 28 post...  
_http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.ht
ml_ 
(http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.html) 

 
Finnegan
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

I was  just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on it. 
I've  been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the 
Modern  Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived 
somewhere  accessible?

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Remember a few month's ago  when we had that thread going called 
> 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then  became
> the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> well I just ran across this  book edited by Peter Davis which is 
> somewhat along the same  lines...
>
>  http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm


 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 10:22:08 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:22:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469F7390.9080301@opus40.org>

Anny's website is one of the treasures of the Internet (as is your 
list). The only trouble with it -- if you're reading, Anny -- is that 
it's hard to find some things. Like the page of definitions of poetry. 
I'd suggest making another section for things like that list, and this 
list, and a clearer signpost to it on the main page.

Also reading "The Romantic Imagination" by CM Bowra. As you know, I tend 
to like older critics, even forgotten ones. I like to know what people 
were thinking. If I want to know what people are thinking today, I 
alread have the world's foremost authority...myself!

If you decide to flesh out the list and need help, I'll volunteer.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point this 
> week I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that came in 
> after the first version was posted on this list. I put it the first 
> version out on my blog...but maybe when it's more filled out (if 
> ever) we can find a better home for it, perhaps on Anny's website.
>  
> See March 28 post...
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.html
>  
> Finnegan
>  
>  
>  
> In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:
>
>     I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note
>     on it.
>     I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the
>     Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived
>     somewhere accessible?
>
>     jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>     > Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called
>     > 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
>     > the 'Ars Poetica Library',
>     > well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is
>     > somewhat along the same lines...
>     >
>     > http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>  
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 11:13:18 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:13:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <8C9982E78C7A69B-920-137EA@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/1135/Gioias-Nightmare

Gioia's Nightmare
July 19, 2007, 8:48 am 
Posted by Robert P. Imbelli 

In today's Wall Street Journal, Dana Gioia reveals his nocturnal panic attack:


I have a recurring nightmare. I am in Rome visiting the Sistine Chapel. I look up at Michelangelo's incomparable fresco of the "Creation of Man." I see God stretching out his arm to touch the reclining Adam's finger. And then I notice in the other hand Adam is holding a Diet Pepsi.


He worries about a culture that increasing wants to be entertained, rather than challenged in a way that only art can challenge. (The late Neil Postman warned about "amusing ourselves to death.")Yet Gioia suggests that culpability is not a one-sided affair:


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 11:30:20 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:30:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing your
	edge...
Message-ID: <469F838C.5030002@opus40.org>

Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From AlMaginnes  Thu Jul 19 12:24:13 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:24:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <c2e.188905ad.33d0ea2d@aol.com>

Awful high falutin for the guy who gave the world that giant Kool Aid  
pitcher crashing through walls.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
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From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 12:44:03 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>

A pretty impressive list.

2 quibbles, for what they're worth.

On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of  
type.  An actual list would be much more readable.

Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some  
annotation.  Even some bare description would be nice, if not  
evaluative comments or some categorization.

Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's  
*Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.  I would also like to  
recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a  
Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 19, 2007, at 9:40 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point  
> this week I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that  
> came in after the first version was posted on this list. I put it  
> the first version out on my blog...but maybe when it's more filled  
> out (if ever) we can find a better home for it, perhaps on Anny's  
> website.
>
> See March 28 post...
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in- 
> progress.html
>
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:
> I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on  
> it.
> I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the
> Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived
> somewhere accessible?
>
> jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> > Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called
> > 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
> > the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> > well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is
> > somewhat along the same lines...
> >
> > http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>
>
>
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 12:58:21 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:58:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
Message-ID: <75704119-8165-4D88-80AC-A94FA244B70A@ripon.edu>

I'm traveling & so perhaps this has been noted already, but in case  
not, I wanted to acknowledge the recent untimely death of Sekou  
Sundiata.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/vale-inspiring- 
poetactivist/2007/07/19/1184559956599.html




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From AlMaginnes  Thu Jul 19 13:07:18 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:07:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
Message-ID: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>

Damn. I wasn't a fan of his poetry but that's a freaking shame. 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 13:32:57 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:32:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>

You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out?in html?& get someone
to host it on a website.

I'd like to add more description about each book...but that?will have to be phase two. 
In?phase one I'm?just?identifying the books as?
poetry-related essays, literary criticism, manuals/guidebooks,?aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. Short & sweet?categorizations?like that.?But?even that's not as easy it seems:?
(1) Because I haven't read?all of these books (which I'm sure is no surprise because it would
be nigh impossible for anyone?except some super-scholar), and (2) some of them thwart
my?simplistic tags or?the book contains a mixed bag of one or more categories. 

FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel?spreadsheet,?and if anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf


A pretty impressive list.



2 quibbles, for what they're worth.??




On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of type.? An actual list would be much more readable.??




Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some annotation.? Even some bare description would be nice, if not evaluative comments or some categorization.??




Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.? I would also like to recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.??








________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Edward.Byrne  Thu Jul 19 13:37:36 2007
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:37:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] VPR Blog
Message-ID: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>

Just an update about the Valparaiso Poetry Review editor's blog, "One
Poet's Notes," complementing work in VPR and recognizing notable
recent publications of poetry: I want to invite all to visit the blog
and encourage you to pass along information about the blog's contents
to any individuals or lists you think might be interested.

Poets whose works are considered and currently on the main page
include John Ashbery, Walt McDonald, Steve Gehrke, Rick Mulkey, Walt
Whitman, John Ruff, David Baker, Mary Biddinger, Charles Wright,
Philip White, Kimberly Blaeser, Theodore Roethke, Jonathan Holden,
Larry Levis, Ellen Bryant Voight, Frannie Lindsay, William Meredith,
Sherod Santos. H. Palmer Hall, Elizabeth Bishop, David Graham, Peter
Pereira, Robert Penn Warren, Virgil Suarez, and Maxin Kumin. As well,
there are commentaries about the closing of the Gotham Book Mart, the
end of Parnassus: Poetry in Review, ekphrastic poetry, and literary
journals on database.

The URL for the blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Thanks,

Ed

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------





From skip  Thu Jul 19 13:40:07 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:40:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <469F838C.5030002@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late years.
Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.




-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:30 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
youredge...

Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 13:42:16 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:42:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
In-Reply-To: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>
References: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C99843484A27D5-504-284@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4561097

Here's an interview with Terry Gross on NPR from a few years back. As I recall the interview, he recounts his health troubles and a bad car wreck he had around the same time.



I thought he was one of the best of the performance poetry scene, which preceded the advent of slam performance poetry.


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 14:19:45 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:19:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get someone
>  to host it on a website.

In the meantime I posted a comment that has the whole list in a more
readable format...

c



From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 19 15:40:08 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:40:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
References: <8C9982E78C7A69B-920-137EA@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <005101c7ca3c$9f0a0130$bcfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  Gioia's Nightmare
  July 19, 2007, 8:48 am 
  Posted by Robert P. Imbelli 
  In today's Wall Street Journal, Dana Gioia reveals his nocturnal panic attack:

  I have a recurring nightmare. I am in Rome visiting the Sistine Chapel. I look up at Michelangelo's incomparable fresco of the "Creation of Man." I see God stretching out his arm to touch the reclining Adam's finger. And then I notice in the other hand Adam is holding a Diet Pepsi.

  Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to what he already had?

  --Bob
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From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 15:26:59 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:26:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>


Thanks...the longest comment I've had.



Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see how those can be deleted on Blogger.

Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said there are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in. But I can see them in my browser.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf



On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:?
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get someone?
> to host it on a website.?
?
In the meantime I posted a comment that has the whole list in a more?
readable format...?
?
c?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 15:32:43 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:32:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks...the longest comment I've had.
>
> Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see how
> those can be deleted on Blogger.
> Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said there
> are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in. But
> I can see them in my browser.

Strange. Once I am logged into Blogger and viewing one of my blogs, if
I view the comments page I see a little trash icon right next to the
date below each icon. This is the same page that others would use to
view or add comments. You should also see a blue bar at the very top
of the browser window, another indication you are logged in.

c
--
Chris Lott



From LauraHeidy  Thu Jul 19 15:38:59 2007
From: LauraHeidy (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:38:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jforjames at aol.com writes:

Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see  how 
those can be deleted on Blogger.



 
Eventually I had to use the comment enabler.  Nothing gets posted  unless I 
say it gets posted.  It works out pretty well, actually.   When someone leaves 
a comment I get an immediate email.  Once I decide the  comment is ok I just 
click the little icon on the email that says "publish this  comment", sign in 
to blogger and TA!DA! the comment gets published. Or I  can delete it before it 
hits the blog.  
 
 
The little garbage icon doesn't always work for me, either.  Sometimes  I see 
it, sometimes I don't.  I can't figure a rhyme or reason to it,  either.  The 
email notification before publication works well.
 
Lo



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From screwzbaran  Thu Jul 19 15:42:50 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:42:50 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>

I have the same issue!

On 7/19/07, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks...the longest comment I've had.
> >
> > Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see
> how
> > those can be deleted on Blogger.
> > Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said
> there
> > are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in.
> But
> > I can see them in my browser.
>
> Strange. Once I am logged into Blogger and viewing one of my blogs, if
> I view the comments page I see a little trash icon right next to the
> date below each icon. This is the same page that others would use to
> view or add comments. You should also see a blue bar at the very top
> of the browser window, another indication you are logged in.
>
> c
> --
> Chris Lott
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 15:45:33 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:45:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191245x105ab69eua2e582daabd70fd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, Suzanne Baran <screwzbaran at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have the same issue!

Often the sequence is: see a comment you want to delete, log in, go
back to the page to delete. That third step can cause the problem, so
be sure to force a refresh of the page (using Shift and hitting the
refresh icon or whatever combination your browser needs) so that it
reads the "cookies" and knows you are logged in.

Other than that, I have no idea except for seeing people who think
they are logged in when they are not (I work with a lot of faculty and
students using blogs), so be sure you can access your dashboard or see
that blue bar with the confirmation of your logged in identity.

c



From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 15:50:27 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:50:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C998553070FFD1-200-51CA@webmail-da18.sysops.aol.com>


I just logged in with another browser (Firefox) and voila the little trash cans were right there.
So it might be an?Explorer issue that makes them invisible to me in that browser. Sorry for blogger shop talk.
Finnegan
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:08:59 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:08:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469FD2EB.2010304@opus40.org>

I'll host if no one else is available.

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get 
> someone
> to host it on a website.
>
> I'd like to add more description about each book...but that will have 
> to be phase two.
> In phase one I'm just identifying the books as 
> poetry-related essays, literary criticism, 
> manuals/guidebooks, aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. 
> Short & sweet categorizations like that. But even that's not as easy 
> it seems: 
> (1) Because I haven't read all of these books (which I'm sure is no 
> surprise because it would
> be nigh impossible for anyone except some super-scholar), and (2) some 
> of them thwart
> my simplistic tags or the book contains a mixed bag of one or more 
> categories.
>
> FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel spreadsheet, and if 
> anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
> A pretty impressive list.
>
> 2 quibbles, for what they're worth.  
>
> On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of 
> type.  An actual list would be much more readable.  
>
> Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some 
> annotation.  Even some bare description would be nice, if not 
> evaluative comments or some categorization.  
>
> Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's 
> *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.  I would also like to 
> recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a 
> Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:16:16 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:16:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] VPR Blog
In-Reply-To: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
References: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <469FD4A0.8020704@opus40.org>

Ed -- have put your blog on my Bookmarks, and read the Ashbery entry 
with great pleasure.

I also very much like the look of your blog. I have Blogger too 
(http://opusforty.blogspot.com/) and I can't get to cover the whole page 
like yours does. I get this little column down the center. What's the 
secret?

Tad Richards

Edward Byrne wrote:
> Just an update about the Valparaiso Poetry Review editor's blog, "One
> Poet's Notes," complementing work in VPR and recognizing notable
> recent publications of poetry: I want to invite all to visit the blog
> and encourage you to pass along information about the blog's contents
> to any individuals or lists you think might be interested.
>
> Poets whose works are considered and currently on the main page
> include John Ashbery, Walt McDonald, Steve Gehrke, Rick Mulkey, Walt
> Whitman, John Ruff, David Baker, Mary Biddinger, Charles Wright,
> Philip White, Kimberly Blaeser, Theodore Roethke, Jonathan Holden,
> Larry Levis, Ellen Bryant Voight, Frannie Lindsay, William Meredith,
> Sherod Santos. H. Palmer Hall, Elizabeth Bishop, David Graham, Peter
> Pereira, Robert Penn Warren, Virgil Suarez, and Maxin Kumin. As well,
> there are commentaries about the closing of the Gotham Book Mart, the
> end of Parnassus: Poetry in Review, ekphrastic poetry, and literary
> journals on database.
>
> The URL for the blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Edward Byrne
> Department of English
> 322 Huegli Hall
> Valparaiso University
> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
> Blog: 
> http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
> VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
> Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:16:58 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:16:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>

Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.

Skip Fox wrote:
> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late years.
> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:30 AM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
> youredge...
>
> Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:26:08 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:26:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>
References: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>

No one ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)

LauraHeidy at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/19/2007 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jforjames at aol.com writes:
>
>     Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't
>     see how those can be deleted on Blogger.
>
>  
> Eventually I had to use the comment enabler.  Nothing gets posted 
> unless I say it gets posted.  It works out pretty well, actually.  
> When someone leaves a comment I get an immediate email.  Once I decide 
> the comment is ok I just click the little icon on the email that says 
> "publish this comment", sign in to blogger and TA!DA! the comment gets 
> published. Or I can delete it before it hits the blog. 
>  
>  
> The little garbage icon doesn't always work for me, either.  Sometimes 
> I see it, sometimes I don't.  I can't figure a rhyme or reason to it, 
> either.  The email notification before publication works well.
>  
> Lo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 17:29:23 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:29:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>
References: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com> <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191429q74545k76e69f63669c2a5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
> No one ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)

Well, I do read it :)

c



From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 17:40:46 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:40:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>

Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?

I wonder if we won't start seeing more & more good geriatric poetry,  
what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the  
wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.

Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And  
in the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly,  
Simpson, Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively  
publishing, even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the  
ballpark much these days.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 19, 2007, at 5:16 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his  
>> late years.
>> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes.  
>> Pollenbearers.
>>

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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 17:44:36 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:44:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>

I hear some artists stay vital well into their *40s*!!

c



From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:48:56 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:48:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <469FDC48.2060304@opus40.org>

Duhh...

Next time I'll read what I write before I post it.

David Graham wrote:
> Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?  
>
> I wonder if we won't start seeing more & more good geriatric poetry, 
> what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the 
> wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.
>
> Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And in 
> the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly, Simpson, 
> Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively publishing, 
> even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the ballpark much 
> these days. 
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 5:16 PM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
>> Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.
>>
>>
>> Skip Fox wrote:
>>
>>> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late 
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.
>>>
>>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:49:15 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:49:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469FDC5B.7000600@opus40.org>

I'll let you know.

Chris Lott wrote:
> I hear some artists stay vital well into their *40s*!!
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 19 20:02:33 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:02:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredg...
Message-ID: <ce1.15624313.33d15599@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2007 4:49:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> Duhh...
> 
> Next time I'll read what I write before I post it.
> 
> David Graham wrote:
> >Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?  
> >
> >I wonder if we won't start seeing more &more good geriatric poetry, 
> >what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the 
> >wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.
> >
> >Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And in 
> >the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly, Simpson, 
> >Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively publishing, 
> >even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the ballpark much 
> >these days. 
> >
> >
Robert Conquest was 90 last Sunday, and he is still writing.  Well.   
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:31:25 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:31:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
Message-ID: <c3b.1706305a.33d15c5d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 5:17:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

Don't  forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.



Was that Matisse? I don't remember seeing Cezanne doing that.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:33:01 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:33:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <c48.14371334.33d15cbd@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 5:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

No one  ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)



That means what you say is perfect, and can bear no correction or  extension.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:34:20 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:34:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <d3a.e83062c.33d15d0c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 2:38:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for  was not inferior to what 
he already had?
 
--Bob





That's philosophy, Bob, not art.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 19 21:45:28 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:45:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and
	losingyouredg...
References: <ce1.15624313.33d15599@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c7ca6f$a8e614e0$bcfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Robert Conquest was 90 last Sunday, and he is still writing.  Well. 

I admire his work--but surely he's been writing at the age of ninety all his life.

--Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 19 22:04:27 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:04:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <cc3.13d86cff.33d1722b@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2007 7:34:53 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> 
>> >>> Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to 
>>> what he already had?
>>>   
>>>  --Bob
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
If you look real closely at that fresco in the Sistine Chapel, you'll quickly 
see that what Adam had was clearly inferior and needed a little divine spark 
(that's why God has Eve under his arm).  But maybe he'd been on steroids.   
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 22:30:21 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:30:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>

I went to a lovely event last evening. About an hour from here in  Litchfield 
County, at the U-Conn extension campus in Torringtion, Charles  (Charlie) Van 
Doren delivered an informal lecture on Robert Frost. He read 18  poems, 
interspersed with commentary and close reading (finding the 'appall'  among all 
those aspects of white in the poem "Design") or reminiscing  over when he first 
encountered this or that poem, and how it affected him then  and now. 
 
The audience was not primarily students or the usual suspects  at poetry 
readings. They were mostly people from the community, folks from  the surrounding 
towns come out to hear an intelligent man talk about  poetry. 
 
All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed pretty  
silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to engage  
their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.
 
Among the poems he read and talked about was this one....
 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in again,
Or  such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with men.
Then  now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and plowers.
It  must be now, though, in season 
Before trees, seeing the opening,
March  into a shadowy claim.
The trees are all I?m afraid of,
That flowers can?t  bloom in the shade of;
It?s no more men I?m afraid of;
The meadow is done  with the tame.
The place for the moment is ours
For you, oh tumultuous  flowers,
To go to waste and go wild in,
All shapes and colors of  flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 22:38:07 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:38:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <cd8.149757f9.33d17a0f@aol.com>

 
missed a line, try this one....
 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in again,
Or  such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with men.
Then  now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and plowers.
It  must be now, though, in season
Before the not mowing brings trees on,  
Before trees, seeing the opening,
March into a shadowy claim.
The  trees are all I?m afraid of,
That flowers can?t bloom in the shade  of;
It?s no more men I?m afraid of;
The meadow is done with the  tame.
The place for the moment is ours
For you, oh tumultuous  flowers,
To go to waste and go wild in,
All shapes and colors of  flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost
 
n a message dated 7/19/2007 10:30:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in  again,
Or such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with  men.
Then now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and  plowers.
It must be now, though, in season 
Before trees, seeing the  opening,
March into a shadowy claim.
The trees are all I?m afraid  of,
That flowers can?t bloom in the shade of;
It?s no more men I?m  afraid of;
The meadow is done with the tame.
The place for the moment is  ours
For you, oh tumultuous flowers,
To go to waste and go wild  in,
All shapes and colors of flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost








************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 02:47:55 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:47:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed pretty
> silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to engage
> their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.

I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.

Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 07:48:56 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:48:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
References: <d3a.e83062c.33d15d0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006201c7cac3$f9b71ff0$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 7/19/2007 2:38:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
      Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to what he already had?

      --Bob


  That's philosophy, Bob, not art.
  Finnegan

  Yeah, Jim, but it was a response to Gioia's philosophical  concern about the Pepsi.
  --Bob
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From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 20 07:45:17 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:45:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A0A04D.2060301@opus40.org>

The Woodstock Poetry Festival, which I was on the board of in a minor 
way, only lasted for three years, but in each of its years it filled up 
the town with visitors, and every event was well-attended.

Chris Lott wrote:
> On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>> All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed 
>> pretty
>> silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to 
>> engage
>> their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.
>
> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>
> Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 09:57:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:57:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Chris Lott wrote:

> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.

Certainly not more than once or twice a year.

> Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)

Serious poetry is not popular, that's a fact.  Unless you want to call pop 
song lyrics and rap serious poetry.  Television devotes 0.001% or its air 
time to it (you think there will ever be an American Idol sort of show set 
up to single out an unknown young poet for stardom?), radio maybe three or 
four times that.  Newspapers rarely mention it.  A few "high-brow" culture 
magazines do discuss it but few give it the space they give movies.

But so what?  Serious mathematics is less popular.

--Bob 





From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul 20 09:24:13 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:24:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <c05.1afbb62e.33d2117d@cs.com>

Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?  Son of the famous Charles 
of tv fame?   
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From JforJames  Fri Jul 20 09:30:30 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:30:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <c7a.183cfc8d.33d212f6@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/20/2007 9:24:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?   Son of the famous Charles 
of tv fame? 
Son of Mark, & subject of Redford's flim Quiz Show 
(_http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/_ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/) )

_http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-van-doren_ 
(http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-van-doren) 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Fri Jul 20 10:01:10 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:01:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

I'm all  for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
medium sized  room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.



Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more  giving
talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps  if
the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for  enough ways 
to 
demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets.  Frost 
is probably not
a tough sell for the general public, but I'd like to bet that one  could fill 
a small room at a local
library or grange hall for a discussion of 'Objectivist Poets', or  something 
along those lines.
The idea might be tos help people learn how to read poetry, to show them  the 
elements they 
need to listen for and to engage them infectiously with what it is  thatt 
might be found there 
and might be useful to them in the lives of their  minds. There might be mroe 
hunger for that
than we think, rather than another Whodat Poet reading from his/her  second 
book of poems.
 
I was sitting next to a woman (in her seventies) who told me she didn't  read
much poetry. But she was there. She was there in part because she was a  
neighbor
of Charles Van Doren. That tells me we should really look for ways to
involve friends and neighbors. Too often these readings and talks are  
sequestered
at some building buried at the heart of a large campus, with little  effort 
to inform or 
encourage community attendence. 
 
Put down that Harry Potter book. Grassroots...yeah.Taking the poetry  to the 
people, baby. 
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul 20 10:03:44 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:03:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <bee.191f6afa.33d21ac0@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/20/2007 8:31:10 AM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?  Son of the famous 
>> Charles of tv fame? 
> Son of Mark, &subject of Redford's flim Quiz Show
> 
For some reason, I thought he'd died a few years ago.  Vivienne Nearing's 
obit was in the Times last week.   
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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:19:12 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:19:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>
>
> Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
> talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps if
> the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for enough ways
> to
> demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets. Frost
> is probably not
> a tough sell for the general public,

And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
of the lecturer.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
wasn't looking for in the first place.

I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:22:23 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:22:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
	<008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> But so what?  Serious mathematics is less popular.

Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:27:54 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:27:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200827n251bd2e6u25a7dc7ba69e4d19@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I went to a lovely event last evening. About an hour from here in Litchfield
> County, at the U-Conn extension campus in Torringtion, Charles (Charlie) Van
> Doren delivered an informal lecture on Robert Frost. He read 18 poems,
> interspersed with commentary and close reading (finding the 'appall' among
> all those aspects of white in the poem "Design") or reminiscing over when he
> first encountered this or that poem, and how it affected him then and now.

Let me just be very clear that I am simply musing on the subject. This
event sounds like it was great and were I in a position to attend it,
I would have. I have a tough time imagine anything like it working
*here* but we have a very small population and I am jaded.

If I had the time and connections to organize something like it, I
might even try my hand.  But I've had pretty unsatisfying experiences
producing artistic events in the past, so it's unlikely I'll return
anytime soon. Unless I get a killer idea that's too good to ignore.

c



From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 20 11:36:01 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:36:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A0D661.8070006@opus40.org>

One of the best episodes of series TV I ever saw was the LA Law episode 
on poetry. Did anyone else see it?

The LA Law office takes on the case of a young college professor who has 
wanted to put on a poetry expo, and has gone into partnership with a 
Hollywood-type promoter, and is now suing to get out of the contract and 
get the promoter out of the package, because of the crass and commercial 
things he's doing -- ruining the expo. The show was obviously written by 
people who understood po-biz, and it beautifully skewered all our 
favorite pretensions.

In the end, the young college professor, bless his heart, realizes that 
the huckster-promoter has something to offer, and goes ahead with the 
partnership (he also admits to the unsympathetic bald-headed partner 
that he actually does like Kipling, particularly "Danny Deever"). The 
expo goes off as scheduled, and is a big hit. One of its attractions -- 
and this is my favorite entertainment moment, closely tied only with 
Bert Parks singing "Maggie's Farm" in "The Freshman" -- is Mamie Van 
Doren reciting "Howl."

The young professor, flushed with success, is a changed man, and is 
already planning the publicity campaign for the big Robert Lowell expo 
he plans for the following year.

Chris Lott wrote:
> On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
>> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
>> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>>
>>
>> Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
>> talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. 
>> Perhaps if
>> the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for 
>> enough ways
>> to
>> demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other 
>> poets. Frost
>> is probably not
>> a tough sell for the general public,
>
> And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
> well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
> of the lecturer.
>
> Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
> address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
> public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
> aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
> fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
> speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
> regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
> wasn't looking for in the first place.
>
> I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
> ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
> lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
> part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
> bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From ccooley  Fri Jul 20 11:46:18 2007
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:46:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <200707192338.l6JNcqKR015744@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707192338.l6JNcqKR015744@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <19E6ACEA-5666-4317-A9F1-22C086232F9E@overdomain.com>

Jim,
Let me know if you want help putting it in an html table.  I am a  
paid (wow:) webmaster for a trade group and when I saw your list  
unseparated I thought of putting it into a table.  Also, I'd be  
willing to help you get the short descriptions David mentioned.   
Sounds like Tad has a website.  I'd like to put it on another site  
too, a new one I'll be building sometime in the fall.  Let me know  
what you'd like-- I like your project and I'd like to help.

Cris


> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:32:57 -0400
> From: jforjames at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out?in html?& get  
> someone
> to host it on a website.
>
> I'd like to add more description about each book...but that?will  
> have to be phase two.
> In?phase one I'm?just?identifying the books as?
> poetry-related essays, literary criticism, manuals/guidebooks,? 
> aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. Short & sweet? 
> categorizations?like that.?But?even that's not as easy it seems:?
> (1) Because I haven't read?all of these books (which I'm sure is no  
> surprise because it would
> be nigh impossible for anyone?except some super-scholar), and (2)  
> some of them thwart
> my?simplistic tags or?the book contains a mixed bag of one or more  
> categories.
>
> FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel?spreadsheet,?and  
> if anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
>
> A pretty impressive list.
>
>
>
> 2 quibbles, for what they're worth.??
>
>
>
>
> On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of  
> type.? An actual list would be much more readable.??
>
>
>
>
> Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some  
> annotation.? Even some bare description would be nice, if not  
> evaluative comments or some categorization.??
>
>
>
>
> Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's  
> *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.? I would also like  
> to recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a  
> Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> __
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's  
> free from AOL at AOL.com.
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>
> ------------------------------




From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 14:08:41 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:08:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44
	fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
> rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
> poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
>
> c

It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal 
mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered by 
the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't get 
much coverage.

--Bob





From cvoisine  Thu Jul 19 20:43:53 2007
From: cvoisine (cvoisine at nmsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:43:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>


i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces, to be 
specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is that 
a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with the 
University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've worked 
hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general public. 
The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer quality 
(free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an issue in 
this part of New Mexico. 

i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...

Connie VOisine


Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> > I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> > medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
> >
> >
> > Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
> > talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps
> if
> > the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for enough
> ways
> > to
> > demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets.
> Frost
> > is probably not
> > a tough sell for the general public,
> 
> And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
> well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
> of the lecturer.
> 
> Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
> address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
> public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
> aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
> fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
> speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
> regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
> wasn't looking for in the first place.
> 
> I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
> ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
> lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
> part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
> bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 13:48:50 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:48:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
	<1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
> i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces, to be
> specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is that
> a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with the
> University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've worked
> hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general public.
> The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer quality
> (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an issue in
> this part of New Mexico.
>
> i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...

So who were your last five or so authors?

Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
when a few classes required attendance by all their students.

I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 13:50:02 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:50:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> > Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
> > rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
> > poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
> >
> > c
>
> It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal
> mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered by
> the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't get
> much coverage.

I didn't mean the reception of science popularizers I meant the
intellectual endeavour. You are obviously dismissive of pop poetry, do
you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 15:04:03 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:04:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf
	3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> > Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
>> > rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
>> > poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
>> >
>> > c
>>
>> It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal
>> mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered 
>> by
>> the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't 
>> get
>> much coverage.
>
> I didn't mean the reception of science popularizers I meant the
> intellectual endeavour. You are obviously dismissive of pop poetry,

No, I'm saying it's different from serious poetry, and I include mainstream 
poetry in that category.



do
> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?

I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody into 
a sociology magazine?  I'm on his side there.  I'm all for science lectures 
or whatever.  I'm just saying that one that other scientists would take as 
seriously as serious poets take serious poetry would draw
no better than poetry.  It's very tangled.  So many variables, like who's 
doing it, what buzz topic may be involved, sulture vultury, etc.


--Bob 





From cvoisine  Fri Jul 20 00:46:30 2007
From: cvoisine (cvoisine at nmsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:46:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
	<1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184906790.46a03e2673325@webmail.nmsu.edu>

our last few readers were:

Sheila Black
Patty Seyburn
Thomas Sayers Ellis
Mary Jo Bang
Maria Melendez
Henry Shukman

all wonderful poets, but since we can't pay very more more than travel, we 
aren't getting the billy collins and whozits. i don't know what's working here 
except that it's a relatively medium-sized town (80,000) in a large county with 
only a little more population-wise. a lot of retired folks around, university 
folks, but also the small town attitude prevails--"oh connie's got another 
event, so let's go support her" or, "nothing else to do on a friday and they 
don't usually let us down". Maybe it's because the weather is always perfect? I 
don't know. Maybe because we have an opening reader who is a graduate student (a 
requirement for graduation is to read in our series) and that pulls locals in 
too. who knows? the series is about 30 years old...

connie



Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces,
> to be
> > specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is
> that
> > a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with
> the
> > University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've
> worked
> > hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general
> public.
> > The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer
> quality
> > (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an
> issue in
> > this part of New Mexico.
> >
> > i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...
> 
> So who were your last five or so authors?
> 
> Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
> person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
> relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
> evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
> in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
> that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
> best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
> that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
> when a few classes required attendance by all their students.
> 
> I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
> is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
> often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From editor  Fri Jul 20 19:00:44 2007
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:00:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a noun sing =?iso8859-1?q?e=B7ratio_9=B72007?=
Message-ID: <200707202300.l6KN0ifA030291@mail20.atl.registeredsite.com>

a noun sing e?ratio 9 ?2007

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

with poetry by:  louis armand, bill lavender, jeff harrison, brian zimmer, jon 
cone, alifair skebe, nicole mauro, michelle cahill, kristy bowen, julie waugh, 
robyn alter bielawa, jack foley, ivan arguelles, jake berry, jonathan minton, 
scott wilkerson, and amy grier

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

edited by gregory vincent st. thomasino





From ralph  Fri Jul 20 19:22:04 2007
From: ralph (ralph at walleahpress.com.au)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:22:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <2842.220.253.134.100.1184973724.squirrel@www.walleahpress.com.au>

>Taking the poetry  to the people, baby.

An interesting effort locally, similar in its involvement of the
community, was inviting community leaders - a civic leader, a politician,
a sportsperson etc - to the regular once-a-month poetry reading in the pub
(which is all we have in Hobart on a regular basis, augmented by the
occasional book launch) to read a favourite poem or two. Worked well too;
it boosted numbers, added a decidedly different element to the reading.
Like everything, I guess, it's just the organising that takes effort.

Ralph
walleahpress.com.au/b25







From robin.hamilton2  Fri Jul 20 20:19:22 2007
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:19:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00d301c7cb2c$ca45f390$4101a8c0@CoreDuo>

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>

>> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?
>
> I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody 
> into a sociology magazine?

No, that was Alan Sokal, Bob.  The book that he and Bricomart wrote after 
that -- _Intellectual Impostures_, but given a blander title when it was 
published in the US -- is more interesting.  Alternate chapters ravaging 
post-modernism (with the exception of Foucault) and on the epistimology of 
science.  (I found the later more intelligible.)

There's an interesting subtext to it -- American Left activist rage at the 
futility of merely intellectualised politics.  Which may be why Foucault 
gets off lightly -- Chomsky also allows Foucault as the only one of that 
pack of French intellectuals that he can stand.

Robin Hamilton






From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 22:25:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 21:25:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com><00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00d301c7cb2c$ca45f390$4101a8c0@CoreDuo>
Message-ID: <013b01c7cb3e$7d5ce7c0$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>
>>> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?
>>
>> I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody 
>> into a sociology magazine?
>
> No, that was Alan Sokal, Bob.  The book that he and Bricomart wrote after 
> that -- _Intellectual Impostures_, but given a blander title when it was 
> published in the US -- is more interesting.  Alternate chapters ravaging 
> post-modernism (with the exception of Foucault) and on the epistimology of 
> science.  (I found the later more intelligible.)
>
> There's an interesting subtext to it -- American Left activist rage at the 
> futility of merely intellectualised politics.  Which may be why Foucault 
> gets off lightly -- Chomsky also allows Foucault as the only one of that 
> pack of French intellectuals that he can stand.
>
> Robin Hamilton


Ah, so.  Which means that I don't know who Sobel is.

Hey, glad to see your post, Robin!  Where have you been!?  I really truly 
have thought of you more than once in the past couple of months but been too 
lazy to e.mail you.

--Bob 





From Kazmandu  Sat Jul 21 14:42:09 2007
From: Kazmandu (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:42:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost 
Message-ID: <cff.12e5705d.33d3ad81@aol.com>

 
 
 
In 2001 I had a nine month work assignment in where I had lived in the Paseo 
arts district of Oklahoma City.  I frequented a local poetry reading every 
Wednesday evening that consistently had over 80 people attend.  Although much of 
it was slam I was astounded none the less. The energy level at these events 
was like that I have never seen before or since.  I was very surprised to find a 
smaller city with such gusto.  One thing I will have to say about smaller 
cities is that it is easier to find the area of town in where the arts are being 
performed.  When I was in Wichita Kansas I found a group of young poets that 
gravitated to Harry?s Uptown Bar and Grill where Albert Goldbarth could be seen 
every Tuesday evening. I have experienced a lot of good things in the smaller 
cities. 
The larger cities have pockets of energy distributed in diverse ways and my 
experience is that the communication between the pockets is not well connected. 
 I currently live in San Diego however; I have lived in Los Angeles, 
Philadelphia, Baltimore, Montreal, Manchester England and a few other cities.  I have 
to say the city that impressed me the most in the area of poetry was 
Philadelphia there seems to be many creative pockets there.  I know NYC has things 
happening all the time however, I have not lived there.   
Cheers, 
Kaz Maslanka 
_http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com_ 
(http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/) 
 
In a message dated 7/21/2007 9:55:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:

From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;    Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184906790.46a03e2673325 at webmail.nmsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

our last few readers were:

Sheila Black
Patty Seyburn
Thomas Sayers Ellis
Mary Jo Bang
Maria Melendez
Henry Shukman

all wonderful poets, but since we can't pay very more more than travel, we 
aren't getting the billy collins and whozits. i don't know what's working 
here 
except that it's a relatively medium-sized town (80,000) in a large county 
with 
only a little more population-wise. a lot of retired folks around, university 
folks, but also the small town attitude prevails--"oh connie's got another 
event, so let's go support her" or, "nothing else to do on a friday and they 
don't usually let us down". Maybe it's because the weather is always perfect? 
I 
don't know. Maybe because we have an opening reader who is a graduate student 
(a 
requirement for graduation is to read in our series) and that pulls locals in 
too. who knows? the series is about 30 years old...

connie



Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces,
> to be
> > specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. 
(Is
> that
> > a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with
> the
> > University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've
> worked
> > hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general
> public.
> > The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer
> quality
> > (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an
> issue in
> > this part of New Mexico.
> >
> > i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...
> 
> So who were your last five or so authors?
> 
> Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
> person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
> relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
> evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
> in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
> that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
> best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
> that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
> when a few classes required attendance by all their students.
> 
> I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
> is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
> often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



 
Cheers,
Kaz

_http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/) 
_http://www.kazmaslanka.com/_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com/) 





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From editor  Tue Jul 24 01:32:19 2007
From: editor (David Baratier)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Transcontinental award
Message-ID: <79891.3178.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

  The Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press 
   
  All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee.
  Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested!
   
  Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements:
  1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part of the page count.
  2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published.  
  3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. 
  4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged. 
  5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces longer than one page. 
  6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry.  
   
  Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1000 and five percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. All submissions must have an August 15th, 2007, or earlier, postmark. This is
 an award for first books only.
   
  If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $18.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 (US) for other countries to cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made.
   
  If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $25.00 via paypal to info at pavementsaw.org. We will then send you an e-mail confirmation as well as where to e-mail the manuscript. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or as word (.doc) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty contract. A decision will be reached in November. Entries should be sent to:
   
  Pavement Saw Press
  Transcontinental Award Entry
  P.O. Box 6291
  Columbus, OH 43206
   
  All submissions must have an August 15th, or earlier, postmark or paypal payment.
  Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only.
If you have questions, please ask us: info at pavementsaw.org


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From jeff.newberry  Tue Jul 24 14:56:15 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:56:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>

Did I pass?

No posts for a couple of days--just checking.

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From skip  Tue Jul 24 15:22:20 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:22:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Very few. Dog days. 

 

A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1st person:

 

"It was a slow day on the net . . . "

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
To: NewPoetry
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test

 

Did I pass?
 

No posts for a couple of days--just checking.

 

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 

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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 15:31:53 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A653A9.8000509@opus40.org>

The only problem was when you showed up for the final exam naked.

Jeff Newberry wrote:
> Did I pass?
>  
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>  
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 15:33:14 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:33:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> ?It was a slow day on the net . . . ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Tue Jul 24 15:49:06 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:49:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000001c7ce2b$b7957750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

You beat me. 

(I take Viagra for the wet dreams.)

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Tue Jul 24 15:54:49 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
References: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <054537A6-2B1C-4AFE-9B88-7D445CA8C454@earthlink.net>

A mole in the Bush is worth . . .

Hal

"The trouble with words is that you never know
  whose mouths they've been in."
			--Dennis Potter

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 24, 2007, at 2:33 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about  
> poetry, but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex  
> with Laura Bush. Any thoughts on what that means?
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>>
>> Very few. Dog days.
>>
>> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>>
>> ?It was a slow day on the net . . . ?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry- 
>> bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry
>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>>
>> Did I pass?
>>
>> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> -- 
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than  
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From skip  Tue Jul 24 17:41:31 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:41:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Pure act of rebellion. Deposing the father. W. gets to f* with the entire
world and won't let anyone else f* what he's been f*ing with. So you'd be
f*ing the f*er's f*. I.e., you're all f*ed up. (The real meaning of the
dream?)

:)

At least you're ahead of me: I take Viagra just for the wet dreams.

(Writer's sidebar: That's the best way for the joke to go, but I wanted to
get in my original thought: I take Viagra in case I run into anyone in my
dreams who might occasion a wet dream. But I found no way to get that into
words that come close to the joke, such as it is, above. "I take Viagra just
so I can be ready for a wet dream?" Lacks the quip-snap. Any ideas?)

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd  Tue Jul 24 18:16:54 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:16:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] *After Confession* reviewed
Message-ID: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>

A review of Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession* has  
just come to my attention, and I am in turn bringing it to yours.   I  
don't agree with every point made by the reviewer, but this is  
certainly one of the most substantive and thoughtful reviews we've  
had.  I am happy to recommend it even though (inexplicably!) Kathleen  
Rooney isn't exactly dazzled by my own contribution.

http://www.cprw.com/Rooney/confession.htm

I can find no date on this essay, so I don't know how old it is, but  
our book appeared in 2001.  Nor can I find any link to the essay on  
the main page for *Contemporary Poetry Review*, which strikes me as a  
bit odd.  Perhaps someone familiar with the mysteries of CPR can  
enlighten me.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From halvard  Tue Jul 24 18:42:12 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:42:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] *After Confession* reviewed
In-Reply-To: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>
References: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <47C4CE43-761C-480D-9770-D0FEAAEB287D@earthlink.net>

I know nothing about it, David, but google does:

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/emergencies/cpr.html


On Jul 24, 2007, at 5:16 PM, David Graham wrote:

>   Perhaps someone familiar with the mysteries of CPR can enlighten me.

"I am no Einstein."
	--Albert Einstein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 21:14:54 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:14:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6A40E.9070400@opus40.org>

Well, I'll be f*ed.

Skip Fox wrote:
> Pure act of rebellion. Deposing the father. W. gets to f* with the entire
> world and won't let anyone else f* what he's been f*ing with. So you'd be
> f*ing the f*er's f*. I.e., you're all f*ed up. (The real meaning of the
> dream?)
>
> :)
>
> At least you're ahead of me: I take Viagra just for the wet dreams.
>
> (Writer's sidebar: That's the best way for the joke to go, but I wanted to
> get in my original thought: I take Viagra in case I run into anyone in my
> dreams who might occasion a wet dream. But I found no way to get that into
> words that come close to the joke, such as it is, above. "I take Viagra just
> so I can be ready for a wet dream?" Lacks the quip-snap. Any ideas?)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
> but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
> Any thoughts on what that means?
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>   
>> Very few. Dog days.
>>
>> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>>
>> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry
>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>>
>> Did I pass?
>>
>> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> -- 
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>   
>>     
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From barry.spacks  Wed Jul 25 22:13:09 2007
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:13:09 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "After Confession"
In-Reply-To: <200707251600.l6PG05KQ021712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707251600.l6PG05KQ021712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <AF8E28FE-5845-4776-9908-A1B88E014044@verizon.net>


On Jul 25, 2007, at 9:00 AM, David Graham wrote:

> A review of Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession* has
> just come to my attention, and I am in turn bringing it to yours.

Good to see the collection receive extended notice, David. Wanted
to mention to other teachers on the list that I've twice used it as a  
required text in my
Poetry as Memoir course here at UCSB, and will again the next time
I offer that reading/writing class. The essays provide a background of
intellectual intensity to what the kids are trying to create in their  
own work.
The book ranks, for me and my charges, at about 102 on a scale of 10.

enthusiastically,

Barry
I 



From JforJames  Thu Jul 26 08:50:11 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:50:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ruth Stone at 92
Message-ID: <c2c.161f13eb.33d9f283@aol.com>

_http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070725/OPINION03/70
7250341/1039/OPINION03_ 
(http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070725/OPINION03/707250341/1039/OPINION03) 
 
A poet's legacy of wonderment
 
July 25, 2007 
 
By YVONNE DALEY 

I met poet Ruth Stone, who is to be feted  Thursday in the Capitol chamber as 
Vermont's newest poet laureate, when I was a  young hippie living in Goshen 
with a passel of small children.
 





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 26 08:57:21 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:57:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Of Feminism... Or Vice Versa
Message-ID: <c11.19fd7c95.33d9f431@aol.com>

_http://desicritics.org/2007/07/25/000153.php_ 
(http://desicritics.org/2007/07/25/000153.php) 
 
The Poetry Of Feminism... Or Vice Versa
July 25, 2007
Aditi  Nadkarni

Since my train of thought has been chuffing along these lines for a  while, 
this article too is about the F-word that seems to be raising many  hackles: 
"feminism".
 
Mind you, this particular article will be difficult to comment on for all  
and sundry. 




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 26 14:47:35 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:47:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fry and Laurie: Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707261147w557f86faj9410111efcaaca26@mail.gmail.com>

Thought you might enjoy this video, Fry and Laurie and a prize winning poem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiHe-WXhNt0

c



From jforjames  Thu Jul 26 15:13:27 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:13:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute to Len Roberts
Message-ID: <8C99DD02E05FC53-BA0-2259@WEBMAIL-DF14.sysops.aol.com>

Subject: Tribute to Len Roberts

A tribute to recently deceased poet Len Roberts appears at
>> http://tpqonline.org

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Thu Jul 26 22:00:33 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:00:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poets Project
Message-ID: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>

I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful  
American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't  
seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by  
various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser  
is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does  
Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.

The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some  
degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.

Recently I've been spending some time near a library with the full  
run, so I've been perusing their editions of Kenneth Koch, Carl  
Sandburg, Muriel Rukeyser, A. R. Ammons, Walt Whitman, and John  
Berryman.

Previously I've looked at their selections of Millay, Williams,  
Roethke, Winters, Menashe, Fearing, Brooks, Karl Shapiro, and Amy  
Lowell.

Every book is beautifully produced, intelligently edited, and well  
introduced.  Worth looking at even when you know the poets well.

The Koch edition, edited by Ron Padgett, is a particular delight.   
Koch is one of those poets whose excellence is nicely highlighted by  
such a selection. Kevin Young's Berryman also looks very interesting;  
I've mostly read his introduction so far.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 07:51:45 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:51:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc. 


  The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.  


  No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck off dead poets can be praised too highly.

  --Bob G.
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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 08:45:28 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:45:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>

Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a  
buck" is close to being literally accurate.

The LOA is a nonprofit outfit, and I very much doubt anyone is  
getting rich (even Rich!) keeping Muriel Rukeyser's work in print,  
much less truly neglected oddballs like Kenneth Fearing and Samuel  
Menashe, who in any other context you would likely praise for their  
outsider status. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 27, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
> I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful  
> American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you  
> haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected  
> poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.    
> Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David  
> Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.
>
> The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some  
> degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the  
> books.
>
> No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck  
> off dead poets can be praised too highly.
>
> --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:11:44 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:11:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a buck" is close to being literally accurate.  

  "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.


  The LOA is a nonprofit outfit, 

  "Nonprofit" = turns its profits into salaries instead of into dividends to shareholders, which for some reason makes them "noncommercial"; costs lawyers' fees to set up so helps give law firms a buck

  You hit another button of mine, David: my one-man publishing outfit, the Runaway Spoon Press, is not non-profit because I can't afford to pay to get it identified as that; nor is it, really, non-profit--it's money-losing.  I can't get government grants because, fo one thing, I have no managing director at a salary of twenty thousand or more to show that my company is serious.

  and I very much doubt anyone is getting rich (even Rich!) keeping Muriel Rukeyser's work in print, much less truly neglected oddballs like Kenneth Fearing and Samuel Menashe, who in any other context you would likely praise for their outsider status. . . .

  Keeping known dead poets in print is not as important as getting living poets into significant print.  Super-especially inasmuch as ALL poets actually are in print--because one can go to most libraries and get copies . . .  Ooops, I take that back.  There are libraries one can visit to get copies of their work.

  The Internet is also making out-of-printedness less and less unimportant.  As for making a buck, I bet everyone involved in this project has made more from it than I have as a poet in my whole life.  More, in fact, than I and any ten of the poets my press has published have made as poets in all our lives taken together.

  There's also the distribution of recognition.  Muriel Rukeyser doesn't need the favorable attention this project will give her; there are valuable poets alive who could use such attention, though.  There are valuable critics, too, who could use the attention being editors of a volume in this series would give them much more than the known critics chosen as editors.   

  That said, sure, it's good to know that someone is seriously getting good volumes of good poets into print.  The real problem is lack of balance--all kinds of funds going into projects like this, very little going into what  I consider the R&D department of American poetry.

  Hey, I think I've done a blog entry.  Not that I'm saying anything I haven't said a zillion times at my blog but nobody visits my blog, so who cares.

  --Bob




  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu


  Home Page:
  http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html


  Poetry Library:
  http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
  ==========================================






  On Jul 27, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:




      I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.  


      The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.   


      No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck off dead poets can be praised too highly.

      --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:28:28 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:28:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project



  Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a buck" is close to being literally accurate.  

    "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.

    Ooops, I missed the joke.  Yes, they each made a buck, no more.  (Yeah, right.)
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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 10:30:34 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:30:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>

That's one of the things I love about you, Bob--that if I miss one  
message
I can always catch the gist of it in the next. But what's your blog  
address?
I'd like to drop by and say hello to nobody.

Hal


On Jul 27, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Hey, I think I've done a blog entry.  Not that I'm saying anything  
> I haven't said a zillion times at my blog but nobody visits my  
> blog, so who cares.
>
> --Bob
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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 10:36:24 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:36:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion du jour: Send a chapbook to a war criminal
	for Tinfish Press
References: <46A982C1.5020309@hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <C1C457D0-C5A7-4227-A28C-920BCD2BD29E@earthlink.net>


"Technological progress is like an ax
  in the hands of a pathological criminal."
		--Albert Einstein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html




Begin forwarded message:

> From: Susan Webster Schultz <schultz at HAWAII.RR.COM>
> Date: July 27, 2007 12:29:37 AM GMT-05:00
> To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Send a chapbook to a war criminal for Tinfish Press
> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
>
> Tinfish Press's ?Send a Book to a War Criminal? Drive
>
> Tinfish Press has just published a chapbook by Sarith Peou, titled  
> CORPSE WATCHING. This book of poems details Peou's experiences  
> under the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia. Please see  
> http://tinfishpress.com/corpse.html for details.
>
> I decided to send a copy to former Secretary of State and Nobel  
> Peace Prize Laureate, Henry Kissinger, whose actions were largely  
> responsible for the Khmer Rouge's coming to power in 1975.
>
> But I want everyone to have this chance. Send $10 to Tinfish Press  
> (less than the usual price of $12) and we will send a copy of the  
> book to the war criminal of your choice with a personalized card to  
> say who's responsible for sending it along. There are many such war  
> criminals?choose one or more. If at all possible, please track down  
> their addresses for us.
>
>
> Susan M. Schultz, Editor
> Tinfish Press
> 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9
> Kane`ohe, HI 96744
> http://tinfishpress.com

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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 10:36:59 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:36:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <3EF46526-703B-4D52-A8DC-2D97A81EE94A@ripon.edu>

The American Poets Project books all list in their front matter their  
funding sources, which appear to be several private foundations.  No  
government support is noted.

I would suggest that any book or series which is able to make a tidy  
profit would not be in need of such subsidy.  I remain unhorrified by  
the notion that the people working on these books may earn some cash  
for their time & expertise.

In any case, I felt and feel that this is a wonderful publishing  
project, unusual in several respects.  As such it's well worth  
supporting, and even possibly worth discussing in terms of the poetry  
it presents.   If anyone's of a mind. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Grumman
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
>
>
> Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a  
> buck" is close to being literally accurate.
>
> "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.
>
> Ooops, I missed the joke.  Yes, they each made a buck, no more.   
> (Yeah, right.)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:50:53 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:50:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu><017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  That's one of the things I love about you, Bob--that if I miss one message
  I can always catch the gist of it in the next.

  You can catch the gist of all the messages to NewPoetry I've ever written just by reading one, Hal.

   But what's your blog address?
  I'd like to drop by and say hello to nobody.


  Hal

  How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit it.  Nobody does.

  --Bob

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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 11:41:21 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:41:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit it.
> Nobody does.

Then who writes the email you sometimes answer on your blog? :)

I read it when I remember, which is pretty often. I wish I had time to
follow through in helping get you setup with something that produced a
feed, then I'd remember all the time.

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/AABloghome.html

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 12:54:29 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:54:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu><017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<3EF46526-703B-4D52-A8DC-2D97A81EE94A@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01d001c7d06e$ce821500$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The American Poets Project books all list in their front matter their funding sources, which appear to be several private foundations.  No government support is noted.


So what?  It's there since all the private foundations are getting tax breaks, as is the American Poets Project.


  I would suggest that any book or series which is able to make a tidy profit would not be in need of such subsidy.  I remain unhorrified by the notion that the people working on these books may earn some cash for their time & expertise.
  I also am unhorrified.  Just disgruntled that much more valuable projects are not out there giving much better people a chance at earning any cash.

  In any case, I felt and feel that this is a wonderful publishing project, unusual in several respects.  As such it's well worth supporting, and even possibly worth discussing in terms of the poetry it presents.   If anyone's of a mind. . . .


  Not I.  I have the weird belief that one ought to discuss poetry of a kind that isn't being discussed in a thousand or more college classrooms and let the academics take care of the latter--in their classrooms.  (And, yes, I do discuss my kind of poetry, but not here often because few here seem interested in it.)

  --Bob
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 12:57:42 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:57:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><017301c7d060$739a5340
	$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net><01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>>
>> How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit 
>> it.
>> Nobody does.
>
> Then who writes the email you sometimes answer on your blog? :)

Ha, that comes directly to me--then I post it with my comments at my blog 
but without visiting the thing!

> I read it when I remember, which is pretty often. I wish I had time to
> follow through in helping get you setup with something that produced a
> feed, then I'd remember all the time.
> http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/AABloghome.html
>
> c

Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or 
someone did.

--Bob





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 12:50:13 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:50:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270950h695d7bd2ye513008cde304ef2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or
> someone did.

It's basically an automatically generated list of material that a
person can subcribe to in a "feed reader." A happy part of that
equation is knowing when there is something new automatically...

Most blog software (most publishing software of any kind nowadays...
it used to be about reading blogs but more and more I read news,
magazines and all kinds of plain old sites that way) automatically
creates the feeds.

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 12:52:05 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:52:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270952q51d8cf90tf27a0e50a5edb3d3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or
> someone did.

The tech term for a feed is RSS (there are other kinds, but most
readers can handle them all so who cares which one)... there is a
great little video that explains feeds and reading them with mostly
markers and paper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0klgLsSxGsU

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 14:42:34 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:42:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-84
	5E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net><01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail
	.gmail.com><01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270952q51d8cf90tf27a0e50a5edb3d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f401c7d07d$e893d3c0$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the data, Chris.  One of these days, I'll see about a feed. 
Could be useful, I see, in a lot of ways: for instance, I could fee the blog 
entries to myself, which would make them handy when I was offline.

--Bob 





From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 14:45:28 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:45:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>

As I Sit Writing Here

As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
May filter in my dally songs.

-- Walt Whitman



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 14:52:54 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:52:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Hal

"To emphasize only the beautiful seems to
me to be like a mathematical system that
only concerns itself with positive numbers."
                      --Franz Kafka

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html





On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:

> As I Sit Writing Here
>
> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
> May filter in my dally songs.
>
> -- Walt Whitman
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 15:02:26 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:02:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>

On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>
> Hal
======================


Yes.  And here's another:


Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
freshly exuding,
Scooting obliquely high and low.

Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.

The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
junction,
The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!

Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



>
> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>
>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>
>> -- Walt Whitman
>>

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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 17:23:12 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:23:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
	<D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>

Not bad, David. Here's another--

What Your Doctor Knows

Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
anecdotes in spite of all your tense
accusations, while, despite the wallflowers

gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
careens in your heart, love by second sight.
The greater the yearning, the greater
the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.


HJ

"To go is to go farther."
               --Kenneth Koch

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:

> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>
>> Hal
> ======================
>
>
> Yes.  And here's another:
>
>
> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
> freshly exuding,
> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>
> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>
> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
> junction,
> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>
> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>
>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>
>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 27 17:58:38 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:58:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>	<D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
	<2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46AA6A8E.9010101@opus40.org>

Ooh, that's good.

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Not bad, David. Here's another--
>
> What Your Doctor Knows
>  
> Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
> coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
> anecdotes in spite of all your tense
> accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>  
> gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
> careens in your heart, love by second sight.
> The greater the yearning, the greater
> the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>
>
> HJ
>
> "To go is to go farther."
>               --Kenneth Koch
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at earthlink.net <mailto:halvard at earthlink.net>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 
> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalvard/index.html>
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>
>>> Hal
>> ======================
>>
>>
>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>
>>
>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising, 
>> freshly exuding,
>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>  
>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>  
>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their 
>> junction,
>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>  
>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me. 
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> *As I Sit Writing Here*
>>>>  
>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>  
>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From JforJames  Fri Jul 27 20:46:45 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:46:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5@aol.com>

 


As I Sit Writing  Here
 
As I sit writing here, sick and  sold out,
Not my least burden is that  dulness of the beers, impotence,
Ungracious goons, belly  aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
May filter in my dally  songs.
 
-- Chaz  Bukowski





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Sat Jul 28 07:15:56 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:15:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
References: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003201c7d108$b06b6400$90fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>




    As I Sit Writing Here
     
    As I sit writing here, sick and sold out,
    Not my least burden is that dulness of the beers, impotence,
    Ungracious goons, belly aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
    May filter in my dally songs.
     
    -- Chaz Bukowski
  Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"

  --Bob




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Edward.Byrne  Sat Jul 28 10:04:40 2007
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
Message-ID: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>


Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------





From Sigauke  Sat Jul 28 12:33:20 2007
From: Sigauke (Sigauke, Emmanuel )
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:33:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
References: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <BA9EA20BB68C2C4F9E57DA81E386A9AE016B99FB@CRC-EXCH01.crc.ad.losrios.edu>

Thanks for the posting Ed. 
 
I have a question regarding blogs and poetry. Is it a good idea to create (and post) all my poetry on a blog? I have posted over two hundred pieces on mine, but I am considering removing them. There is something about creating poetry on a blog that seems to make the process less --- something. 
 

________________________________

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Edward Byrne
Sent: Sat 7/28/2007 7:04 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!




Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog:
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From pmetres  Sat Jul 28 12:59:27 2007
From: pmetres (Philip Metres)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:59:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] new on Behind the Lines
Message-ID: <20070728125927.AOH62865@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Folks, if you have any thoughts, any recent web discoveries on poetry and war, poetry and cultural labor, poetry and dissidence, send them along to me.  Thanks: 

New on "Behind the Lines" blog: 

Some Thoughts on "Operation Homecoming" 
Mark Halliday's "Fort Brag"/Why Do "Git 'Er Done" and Vietnam almost rhyme 
World Leader Pretend/"PeaceMaker" Computer Game 
David-Baptiste Chirot's "See Scrawls"/Where Poetry and Visuality Meet 
"Homeland Security" by Halvard Johnson 
"Murder Machine" by Kurt Schwitters 
Edward Dougherty's "Speaking for Myself" 
Re-Thinking the Homefront/"War Zone" by Maggie Hadleigh-West 
Kenneth Koch's "The Pleasures of Peace"/The New York School and War Resistance 
The Lemonheads' "Let's Just Laugh"/Evan Dando Going Political 
Mahmoud Darwish's Return to Haifa/"Identity Card" 
Andrew Epstein's "Poem Beginning with a Line from George Bush.." 
"The End(s) of Russian Poetry: An Interview with Dmitry Prigov 
Dmitry Alexandrovich Prigov, Soviet-Era Avant-Garde Poet, RIP 
Halvard Johnson's Call for Poems on the War for BIG BRIGE 
K. Silem Mohammad's "Peace Kittens"/Flarf and its Dissident Contents 

Philip Metres
Associate Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
fax: (216) 397-1723
http://www.philipmetres.com
http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com


---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:00:05 -0400
>From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu  
>Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27  
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Re: American Poets Project (Bob Grumman)
>   2. As I sit writing here (David Graham)
>   3. Re: As I sit writing here (Halvard Johnson)
>   4. Re: As I sit writing here (David Graham)
>   5. Re: As I sit writing here (Halvard Johnson)
>   6. Re: As I sit writing here (TheOldMole)
>   7. Re: As I sit writing here (JforJames at aol.com)
>   8. Re: As I sit writing here (Bob Grumman)
>   9. Happy Birthday J.A.! (Edward Byrne)
>  10. RE: Happy Birthday J.A.! (Sigauke, Emmanuel )
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:42:34 -0500
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <01f401c7d07d$e893d3c0$9ffad740 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>Thanks for the data, Chris.  One of these days, I'll see about a feed. 
>Could be useful, I see, in a lot of ways: for instance, I could fee the blog 
>entries to myself, which would make them handy when I was offline.
>
>--Bob 
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:45:28 -0400
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80 at ripon.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>As I Sit Writing Here
>
>As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>May filter in my dally songs.
>
>-- Walt Whitman
>
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
>Poetry Library:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>==========================================
>
>
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:52:54 -0500
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>
>Hal
>
>"To emphasize only the beautiful seems to
>me to be like a mathematical system that
>only concerns itself with positive numbers."
>                      --Franz Kafka
>
>Halvard Johnson
>================
>halvard at earthlink.net
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>
>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>
>> -- Walt Whitman
>>
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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>URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20070727/026ce007/attachment-0001.html
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:02:26 -0400
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C at ripon.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>
>> Hal
>======================
>
>
>Yes.  And here's another:
>
>
>Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
>freshly exuding,
>Scooting obliquely high and low.
>
>Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>
>The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
>junction,
>The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>
>Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
>Poetry Library:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>==========================================
>
>
>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>
>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>
>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:23:12 -0500
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Not bad, David. Here's another--
>
>What Your Doctor Knows
>
>Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
>coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
>anecdotes in spite of all your tense
>accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>
>gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
>careens in your heart, love by second sight.
>The greater the yearning, the greater
>the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>
>
>HJ
>
>"To go is to go farther."
>               --Kenneth Koch
>
>Halvard Johnson
>================
>halvard at earthlink.net
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>
>>> Hal
>> ======================
>>
>>
>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>
>>
>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
>> freshly exuding,
>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>
>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>
>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
>> junction,
>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>
>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>>
>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>
>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:58:38 -0400
>From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <46AA6A8E.9010101 at opus40.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Ooh, that's good.
>
>Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Not bad, David. Here's another--
>>
>> What Your Doctor Knows
>>  
>> Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
>> coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
>> anecdotes in spite of all your tense
>> accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>>  
>> gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
>> careens in your heart, love by second sight.
>> The greater the yearning, the greater
>> the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>>
>>
>> HJ
>>
>> "To go is to go farther."
>>               --Kenneth Koch
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard at earthlink.net <mailto:halvard at earthlink.net>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 
>> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalvard/index.html>
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> Hal
>>> ======================
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising, 
>>> freshly exuding,
>>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>>  
>>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>>  
>>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their 
>>> junction,
>>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>>  
>>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me. 
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>>
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>>
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *As I Sit Writing Here*
>>>>>  
>>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>   
>
>-- 
>Tad Richards
>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:46:45 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> 
>
>
>As I Sit Writing  Here
> 
>As I sit writing here, sick and  sold out,
>Not my least burden is that  dulness of the beers, impotence,
>Ungracious goons, belly  aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
>May filter in my dally  songs.
> 
>-- Chaz  Bukowski
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:15:56 -0500
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <003201c7d108$b06b6400$90fad740 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>    As I Sit Writing Here
>     
>    As I sit writing here, sick and sold out,
>    Not my least burden is that dulness of the beers, impotence,
>    Ungracious goons, belly aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
>    May filter in my dally songs.
>     
>    -- Chaz Bukowski
>  Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"
>
>  --Bob
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0500
>From: "Edward Byrne" <Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6 at mailhub.valpo.edu>
>
>
>Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
>piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
>his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
>following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Edward Byrne
>Department of English
>322 Huegli Hall
>Valparaiso University
>Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
>E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
>Blog: 
>http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
>E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
>VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
>Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
>Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:33:20 -0700
>From: "Sigauke, Emmanuel " <Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>To: <edward.byrne at valpo.edu>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>	&amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID:
>	<BA9EA20BB68C2C4F9E57DA81E386A9AE016B99FB at CRC-EXCH01.crc.ad.losrios.edu>
>	
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Thanks for the posting Ed. 
> 
>I have a question regarding blogs and poetry. Is it a good idea to create (and post) all my poetry on a blog? I have posted over two hundred pieces on mine, but I am considering removing them. There is something about creating poetry on a blog that seems to make the process less --- something. 
> 
>
>________________________________
>
>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Edward Byrne
>Sent: Sat 7/28/2007 7:04 AM
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>
>
>
>
>Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
>piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
>his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
>following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Edward Byrne
>Department of English
>322 Huegli Hall
>Valparaiso University
>Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
>E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
>Blog:
>http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
>E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
>VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
>Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
>Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27
>******************************************



From anny.ballardini  Sat Jul 28 13:20:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:20:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] new on Behind the Lines
References: <20070728125927.AOH62865@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <003701c7d13b$9f9b28d0$1bab3252@ANNY>

Hi Philip,

see Enough:
http://spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=1882022483

I didn't like all the poems but some are exceptional,
good luck,

Anny

From: "Philip Metres" <pmetres at jcu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 6:59 PM


> Folks, if you have any thoughts, any recent web discoveries on poetry and 
> war, poetry and cultural labor, poetry and dissidence, send them along to 
> me.  Thanks:
>
> New on "Behind the Lines" blog:
>
> Some Thoughts on "Operation Homecoming"
> Mark Halliday's "Fort Brag"/Why Do "Git 'Er Done" and Vietnam almost rhyme
> World Leader Pretend/"PeaceMaker" Computer Game
> David-Baptiste Chirot's "See Scrawls"/Where Poetry and Visuality Meet
> "Homeland Security" by Halvard Johnson
> "Murder Machine" by Kurt Schwitters
> Edward Dougherty's "Speaking for Myself"
> Re-Thinking the Homefront/"War Zone" by Maggie Hadleigh-West
> Kenneth Koch's "The Pleasures of Peace"/The New York School and War 
> Resistance
> The Lemonheads' "Let's Just Laugh"/Evan Dando Going Political
> Mahmoud Darwish's Return to Haifa/"Identity Card"
> Andrew Epstein's "Poem Beginning with a Line from George Bush.."
> "The End(s) of Russian Poetry: An Interview with Dmitry Prigov
> Dmitry Alexandrovich Prigov, Soviet-Era Avant-Garde Poet, RIP
> Halvard Johnson's Call for Poems on the War for BIG BRIGE
> K. Silem Mohammad's "Peace Kittens"/Flarf and its Dissident Contents
>
> Philip Metres
> Associate Professor
> Department of English
> John Carroll University
> 20700 N. Park Blvd
> University Heights, OH 44118
> phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
> fax: (216) 397-1723
> http://www.philipmetres.com
> http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com
>





From JforJames  Sat Jul 28 13:54:25 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:54:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <c0e.15826bd6.33dcdcd1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/28/2007 6:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Ah, but  shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter  from?"


Could be, Bob, but then again he probably smoked 'em without  filters, eh?
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Sat Jul 28 15:20:46 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:20:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
References: <c0e.15826bd6.33dcdcd1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d901c7d14c$68b5c0d0$90fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 7/28/2007 6:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"
  Could be, Bob, but then again he probably smoked 'em without filters, eh?
  Finnegan

  Hey, I was serious, Jim!
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From halvard  Sat Jul 28 15:38:38 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:38:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: A Little Story
Message-ID: <D927D017-75B8-4ED1-A98C-493379FB9144@earthlink.net>

Sonnet: A Little Story

We cannot just sit here and say nothing, so I?ll tell you
what?I?ll tell you a little story. Once upon a time
there was a little president who thought he could be bigger.
He tried and tried to grow himself but only got him smaller.

He sent out folks to find folks littler than him so he could
make them like him more. But they, they just didn?t listen and so
he had to kick their butts. Then they, they only hollered, and he,
he smallified some more. I?ll smallify the world, he said, and

then, if?n they don?t line up with me, I?ll smallify them more. I?ll
rubble-ize their houses and turn their lunches into ash. I?ll give
all of them nicknames that?ll wither up their butts. But they,
they didn?t listen, and he just grew him smaller and smaller,

small ears and little eyes and all. By now, he?s only visible to Hub-
ble. And naked eyes? They just don?t even see him anymore.




Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html









From JforJames  Sun Jul 29 13:47:09 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:47:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others: George Oppen
Message-ID: <bdc.17dab191.33de2c9d@aol.com>

Squall
 
         coming about
When  the squall knocked her
Flat on the water. When she came
Upright, here rig  was gone
And her crew clinging to her. The water in her cabins
Washing  thru companionways and hatches
And the deep ribs
Had in that  mid-passage
No kinship with any sea.
 

--George Oppen
(The Collected Poems of George Oppen, New Directions,  1975)
 
& an Oppen quote today...
_http://ursprache.blogspot.com/_ (http://ursprache.blogspot.com/) 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From alexdickow9  Sun Jul 29 14:31:57 2007
From: alexdickow9 (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back
In-Reply-To: <200707291600.l6TG04KR025603@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <102869.73601.qm@web35515.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi folks,
I'm back from teaching in Francypants. 
What'd I miss?
You can now by that journal with my poem in it by
paypal, www.larepubliquemondialedeslettres.com.
More later. Hope everyone's had a swell summer.
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 29 14:31:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:31:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Duchamp
Message-ID: <010101c7d20e$bc4879f0$8caf3452@ANNY>

and here is Duchamp on his indifference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUYovIM8WQc



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 04:43:07 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:43:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director,
	Dies at 89
Message-ID: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

This page was sent to you by: anny.ballardini at tin.it.

INTERNATIONAL | July 30, 2007
Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture history, died today, Swedish news reports said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1






----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

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Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 08:49:54 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:49:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: No Getting Away From City Issues
Message-ID: <002101c7d2a8$20f16c60$5eab3252@ANNY>

FW: No Getting Away From City Issues

This story was sent to you by: dennis barone

--------------------
No Getting Away From City Issues
--------------------

By DENNIS BARONE

July 22 2007

The planning challenges facing Harford are similar to those confronting other urban areas within the nation and across the globe. This fact became very clear to me during two recent trips: one to Portland, Maine, and the other to Naples, Italy. The common themes are the automobile, loss of industry and cultural tourism.

The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/commentary/hc-plcbarone0722.artjul22,0,7123064.story

Visit Courant.com at http://www.courant.com

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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul 30 10:50:00 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:50:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies
	at 89
In-Reply-To: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <46ADFA98.3070601@opus40.org>

Ingmar Bergman was such a rite of passage for me. His movies were among 
the first grownup aesthetic experiences I discovered on my own, and I 
still watch The Seventh Seal regularly.


anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 	
> The New York Times <http://www.nytimes.com/>E-mail This 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02b-nyt5-511278&ad=once_88x31_Nowplaying.gif&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchlight%2Ecom%2Fonce%2F> 
>
> *This page was sent to you by: * anny.ballardini at tin.it
>
> *INTERNATIONAL * | July 30, 2007
> * Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1>* 
>
> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture 
> history, died today, Swedish news reports said.
>
> 	
>
> Most E-mailed
> 1. Six Killers | Cancer: Cancer Patients, Lost in a Maze of Uneven 
> Care 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/health/29Cancer.html?ex=1186459200&en=0e98474bf6711498&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 2. In the ?60s, a Future Candidate Poured Her Heart Out in Letters 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/politics/29letter.html?ex=1186459200&en=8e91834e5763c443&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 3. Handmade Alabama Quilts Find Fame and Controversy 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/29quilt.html?ex=1186459200&en=eb3b816a15312247&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 4. The Nation: Sending Back the Doctor?s Bill 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/weekinreview/29berenson.html?ex=1186459200&en=d41ea9e9a0257fc7&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 5. Certain Degrees Now Cost More at Public Universities 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/29tuition.html?ex=1186459200&en=c16cf6293fcbb65e&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
>
> ? Go to Complete List 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/gst/mostemailed.html?type=1>
>
> Advertisement
>
> *SUNSHINE*
> >From Danny Boyle The director of Trainspotting and 28 Days Later
> In Select Theatres July 20
> Click here to watch trailer 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine> 
> 	
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine>
>
>
>
> Copyright 2007 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The New 
> York Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> | Privacy Policy 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html> 	
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 11:00:32 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:00:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director,
	Diesat 89
References: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<46ADFA98.3070601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <001a01c7d2ba$60f04ea0$80ad3252@ANNY>

Yes, I agree. I remember watching his movies one after the other, and if I 
had them here now, I would start all over again. Great sensitive work 
carried out by a man.

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, 
Diesat 89


> Ingmar Bergman was such a rite of passage for me. His movies were among 
> the first grownup aesthetic experiences I discovered on my own, and I 
> still watch The Seventh Seal regularly.
>
>
> anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
>>
>> The New York Times <http://www.nytimes.com/>E-mail This 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02b-nyt5-511278&ad=once_88x31_Nowplaying.gif&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchlight%2Ecom%2Fonce%2F>
>> *This page was sent to you by: * anny.ballardini at tin.it
>>
>> *INTERNATIONAL * | July 30, 2007
>> * Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1>*
>> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>> Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture history, 
>> died today, Swedish news reports said.
>>
>>
>> Most E-mailed
>> 1. Six Killers | Cancer: Cancer Patients, Lost in a Maze of Uneven Care 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/health/29Cancer.html?ex=1186459200&en=0e98474bf6711498&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 2. In the ?60s, a Future Candidate Poured Her Heart Out in Letters 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/politics/29letter.html?ex=1186459200&en=8e91834e5763c443&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 3. Handmade Alabama Quilts Find Fame and Controversy 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/29quilt.html?ex=1186459200&en=eb3b816a15312247&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 4. The Nation: Sending Back the Doctor?s Bill 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/weekinreview/29berenson.html?ex=1186459200&en=d41ea9e9a0257fc7&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 5. Certain Degrees Now Cost More at Public Universities 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/29tuition.html?ex=1186459200&en=c16cf6293fcbb65e&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>>
>> ? Go to Complete List 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/gst/mostemailed.html?type=1>
>>
>> Advertisement
>>
>> *SUNSHINE*
>> >From Danny Boyle The director of Trainspotting and 28 Days Later
>> In Select Theatres July 20
>> Click here to watch trailer 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine> 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine>
>>
>>
>>
>> Copyright 2007 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The New 
>> York Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> | Privacy Policy 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From screwzbaran  Mon Jul 30 17:46:03 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:46:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: FULCRUM's New MySpace Page & Blog
In-Reply-To: <8C98582939D1A0E-12D8-24C0@webmail-da02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <W298922973930321182530222@webmail8>
	<8C98582939D1A0E-12D8-24C0@webmail-da02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707301446x428282f7k3e2d0890604a4ef0@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070730/ap_en_ot/bad_poet


On 6/25/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fulcrum Annual
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:37 pm
> Subject: FULCRUM's New MySpace Page & Blog
>
> FULCRUM: an annual of poetry and aesthetics
> now has a brand-new profile and blog on MySpace:
> http://www.myspace.com/fulcrumpoetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 31 05:41:59 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:41:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Who's Minding the Mind?
Message-ID: <200707310941.l6V9fxKP012311@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

This page was sent to you by: anny.ballardini at tin.it.

It is all the ventral pallidum's fault if you ended up buying all that junk instead of bread and butter, :-)


HEALTH / MENTAL HEALTH & BEHAVIOR | July 31, 2007
Who's Minding the Mind?
By BENEDICT CAREY
The subconscious brain is more active, independent and purposeful than once thought. Sometimes it takes charge. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/health/psychology/31subl.html?ex=1186545600&en=f6d3a2c40ccbd09b&ei=5070&emc=eta1






----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

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Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
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From halvard  Tue Jul 31 11:04:11 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:04:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)
Message-ID: <70BEAB4E-6D7E-413A-9E51-B60A4007FDFC@earthlink.net>


"Context is everything that content is not."
                         --Anon.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From jforjames  Tue Jul 31 15:18:26 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:18:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heraclitus of New Hampshire
Message-ID: <8C9A1BEB460CADB-C20-6C9C@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>


http://newcriterion.com:81/archives/25/06/the-heraclitus-of-new-hampshire/

The Heraclitus of New Hampshire
By Eric Ormsby

Buy the book
The Notebooks of Robert Frost


Not surprisingly for ?one acquainted with the night,? Robert Frost cultivated a lifelong penchant for dark sayings. These sayings included aphorisms and maxims, apothegms and proverbs, wise saws and the occasional bon mot, alongside interjections, exclamations, and guffaws, interrupted thoughts and broken utterances. They were dark because they riddled, sometimes as much by their sound as by their content. Many, of course, made their way into his finest poems. ?Good fences make good neighbors? 


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From jforjames  Tue Jul 31 15:33:01 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:33:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Bellows reviewed
Message-ID: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.cprw.com/Houlihan/bellows.htm
As Reviewed By:
Joan Houlihan
Pretty Pieces 


Why Speak? by Nathaniel Bellows. W.W. Norton, 2007. 110 pages.? 
? 
?
Why speak? A good question. But this debut collection provokes more specific questions: In what way are these poems not short, short, stories? What governs their line breaks? Where is the power of trope, concision, sound, rhythm, the one right image that radiates from an emotional center? What drives these poems other than the descriptive, sometimes merely competent, writing of literary fiction?? 
?


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From halvard  Tue Jul 31 16:26:30 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:26:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Bellows reviewed
In-Reply-To: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8E9B50DA-21F5-4769-A1F6-888590DD686D@earthlink.net>

Please, one good reason to read Joan Houlihan?
Oh, yeah, because she's there.

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 31, 2007, at 2:33 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> http://www.cprw.com/Houlihan/bellows.htm
> As Reviewed By:
> Joan Houlihan
> Pretty Pieces
>
> Why Speak? by Nathaniel Bellows. W.W. Norton, 2007. 110 pages.
>
>
> Why speak? A good question. But this debut collection provokes more  
> specific questions: In what way are these poems not short, short,  
> stories? What governs their line breaks? Where is the power of  
> trope, concision, sound, rhythm, the one right image that radiates  
> from an emotional center? What drives these poems other than the  
> descriptive, sometimes merely competent, writing of literary fiction?
>
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's  
> free from AOL at AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 31 16:46:13 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:46:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)
References: <70BEAB4E-6D7E-413A-9E51-B60A4007FDFC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001501c7d3b3$d5eec430$a5ad3252@ANNY>

I met Michelangelo Antonioni. He was on a wheelchair. The exhausted I was I leaned my head on the seat in front (for a minute) and fell sound asleep. Woke up at the clapping of hands at the end of his movie with an horizontal cut in my forehead. Probably everybody noticed - first me falling asleep and then my face at the exit since there were only few people. It was a retrospective dedicated to Antonioni. His wife acted as if she was his nurse - even if he had a nurse, he was physically disastered. Among the cinema monsters (Bergman, Pasolini, the great Visconti) he was the one I less understood, even if I was privileged in meeting him and in witnessing his work from the very first "seats" I thought they were boring. My negligence probably, and /or incapacity. I anyhow feel a little lost, less protected. And terribly sorry - very sad. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:04 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)




  "Context is everything that content is not."
                          --Anon.


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html








------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From JforJames  Tue Jul 31 19:29:03 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:29:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ozymadias and me
Message-ID: <ca6.155d72ed.33e11fbf@aol.com>

 
Atoll Halo 

The seaplane put down  
in an aquamarine lagoon,  
ringed by an atoll reef. 
The small island inside 
was a treeless mound of  
rounded stone, blazing white  
at midday. The island thought  
at first to be a worn dome  
of congealed lava, but divers  
exploring around the island  
discovered it to be the bald pate  
of an immense statuary god,  
sunk hundreds of feet  
below the waves, body 
a limestone home 
to countless species 
of fish and anemone 
that worshipped  
around its torso,  
knee-deep in coral, 
feet buried in silt  
become  clay.




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul  1 13:15:58 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:15:58 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: R: [New-Poetry] Milosz
Message-ID: <11382c81926.anny.ballardini@tin.it>

It seems I was called for this:
To glorify things just because they 
are.

Exhilarating!
Happy July, my favorite month,
Anny

----Messaggio 
originale----
Da: grahamd at ripon.edu
Data: 30-giu-2007 4.31 PM
A: 
"NewPoetry &amp; Views"<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Ogg: [New-Poetry] 
Milosz

On his birthday, a poem.


BLACKSMITH SHOP


I liked the 
bellows operated by rope.
A hand or foot pedal--I don?t remember which.
But that blowing, and the blazing of the fire!
And a piece of iron in 
the fire, held there by tongs,
Red, softened for the anvil,
Beaten with 
the hammer, bent into a horseshoe,
Thrown in a bucket of water, sizzle, 
steam.

And horses hitched to be shod,
Tossing their manes; and in the 
grass by the river
Plowshares, sledge runners, harrows waiting for 
repair

At the entrance, my bare feet on the dirt floor,
Here, gusts of 
heat; at my back, white clouds.
I stare and stare.  It seems I was 
called for this:
To glorify things just because they are.

       --
Czeslaw Milosz, trans. Someone.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry 
Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-
poetry







From jeff.newberry  Sun Jul  1 20:31:53 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 20:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>

" . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the
inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an
engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and
uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply
defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to
elemental awe and wonder."

--Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


Jeff Newberry

-- 

"THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From bobgrumman  Sun Jul  1 22:59:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 21:59:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."

  --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


  Jeff Newberry

  As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.

  --Bob Grumman
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From Opus40-01  Sun Jul  1 23:19:24 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:19:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>

Keats kinda said the same thing.

Jeff Newberry wrote:
> " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of 
> mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be 
> taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to 
> live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  
> Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I 
> think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
>
> --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 
> 2007
>
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
>
> "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul  2 05:57:25 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:57:25 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: R: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
Message-ID: <113865cf42d.anny.ballardini@tin.it>


as if anyone could live without doubts or without being uncertain,

Da: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
Data: 2-lug-2007 4.59 AM


  " . . . one 
of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery, the 
inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as 
an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt 
and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is 
deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time 
we return to elemental awe and wonder."

  --Major Jackson, "Does 
Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January 2007


  Jeff Newberry

  As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter 
certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.

  --Bob 
Grumman_______________________________________________




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 08:30:32 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:30:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<002601c7bc55$16336ee0$63fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020530i7344ebdfvdee4e29a2ca1cc8@mail.gmail.com>

You don't live in doubt and uncertainty?  Do tell.  Do tell.

As far as I (a mere mortal) am concerned, doubt and uncertainty are the only
certainties.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/1/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of mystery,
> the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be taught not as an
> engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to live in doubt and
> uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.  Our species is deeply
> defined by its great surges of reason, but I think it high time we return to
> elemental awe and wonder."
>
> --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January
> 2007
>
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> As if anyone could live in doubt and uncertainty.  Not that utter
> certainty, if possible, wouldn't be worse.
>
> --Bob Grumman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 08:31:30 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:31:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>

It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole.  I've been reading through his
letters.  I'll try to track down the passage you reference.  I'm pretty sure
that I know what you're talking about.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/1/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> Keats kinda said the same thing.
>
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
> >
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, January
> > 2007
> >
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > --
> >
> > "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
> >
> > http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 10:06:05 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:06:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.  But, remember, Keats was very young.  

And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three hours to dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study for fear it may be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will devour me.  On the other hand, who knows whether being devoured is bad or not.  Or whether it would really be me who is being devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to these possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.

--Bob
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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 09:17:32 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:17:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>

It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.

*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what 
quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and 
which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, 
that is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, 
doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, 
for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from 
the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content 
with half-knowledge. *

The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably 
have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow 
ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in 
which there are three blackbirds.

I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats 
saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's 
criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior 
quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute 
an */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.


Jeff Newberry wrote:
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole.  I've been reading through 
> his letters.  I'll try to track down the passage you reference.  I'm 
> pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org 
> <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org>> wrote:
>
>     Keats kinda said the same thing.
>
>     Jeff Newberry wrote:
>     > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
>     > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable.  I think poetry ought to be
>     > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
>     > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
>     > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
>     > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
>     >
>     > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,
>     January
>     > 2007
>     >
>     >
>     > Jeff Newberry
>     >
>     > --
>     >
>     > "THIS QUOTE CENSORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY"
>     >
>     > http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > New-Poetry mailing list
>     > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >
>
>     --
>     Tad Richards
>     http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>     http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ <http://opusforty.blogspot.com/>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 09:31:54 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:31:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020631y6776ee65vecde7856c7894ea0@mail.gmail.com>

Not being snarky here--I think I see your point.

I'll ruminate & marinate in your ideas.

Thanks,

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>  The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.  But,
> remember, Keats was very young.
>
> And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three hours to
> dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study for fear it may
> be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will devour me.  On the other
> hand, who knows whether being devoured is bad or not.  Or whether it would
> really be me who is being devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to
> these possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl
> with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 09:46:21 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:46:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<003801c7bcb2$23d487c0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <F0D5C610-CEED-4C23-80E1-6906E2DFF0CD@earthlink.net>

Oh, Keats was always very young.

Hal

"Leisure is necessary to any form of civilization
  higher than that of ants, apes, Kipling and his
  cousin Stan Baldwin."
                            --Ezra Pound

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> The Mole is probably referring to Keats's remark about Coleridge.   
> But, remember, Keats was very young.
>
> And, yeah, Jeff, I live in doubt and uncertainty.  Takes me three  
> hours to dare sit down on what I think may be the chair in my study  
> for fear it may be something not in Horatio's philosophy that will  
> devour me.  On the other hand, who knows whether being devoured is  
> bad or not.  Or whether it would really be me who is being  
> devoured.  Poetry should certainly open us up to these  
> possibilities.  Perish forbid it should ever bring us cheek to jowl  
> with . . . some kind of (yuck) Final Verity.
>
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 10:07:00 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:07:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have some "certainty" in their saying.
He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with?unceartainty 
and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to me that's?much the fashion
of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't want to avoid a?poetry?strove, 
at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding the stil-point amid the welter.

It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to?shed light, and more?generally, to show cleary.
So we 'illumine' what is?obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
Jackson seems to veer off at?end this quote with almost a nod to someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return, e.g.).

No answers here...only observations.
Finnegan



It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.?
?
*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *?
?
The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.?
?
I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.?
?
Jeff Newberry wrote:?
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.?
>?
> Jeff Newberry?
>?
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org>> wrote:?
>?
> Keats kinda said the same thing.?
>?
> Jeff Newberry wrote:?
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of?
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be?
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to?
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.?
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I?
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."?
> >?
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,?
> January?
> > 2007?



________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 10:14:16 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:14:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Declaring your doubt
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>

On Keats, uncertainty, etc., here's a passage from a recent essay by  
David Kirby, the whole of which I also recommend:

"Indeed, part of a great poem will be its enduring mystery. Keats  
interrogates his urn mercilessly: Who are these figures depicted on  
you? Are they human or divine? Where are they going? What are they  
doing? He gets an answer???Beauty is truth, truth beauty.?? Yet it?s  
only a partial answer, for, as the urn says, ??that is all / Ye know  
on earth, and all ye need to know.?? In other words, shut up: I, the  
urn, will tell you earthlings what you know already, and the rest  
you?ll find out later, if at all.

There?s a stack of recent poetry books by my desk. Almost at random,  
they declare their doubt. In some cases, the titles themselves give  
away the author?s air of uncertainty: There?s Incomplete Knowledge by  
Jeffrey Harrison, as well as John Gallaher?s The Little Book of  
Guesses. ?Yesterday for you / I wrote a poem so full / of lies it  
woke me?, writes Matthew Zapruder in The Pajamist, and the first line  
of Paisley Rekdal?s ?The Invention of the Kaleidoscope? says simply,  
?I am going to fail.?

Yet certainty and doubt are two sides of the same coin, and each of  
these collections seems to begin in shadow just so it can work its  
way into the light. If there?s a single quality common to all good  
poems, it?s that each takes the reader on the full roller coaster  
ride of idea and emotion, up the peaks and down the valleys. It then  
drops the reader off at the starting point again, the same person  
still, though changed."
--David Kirby.  "Why, Poetry?"  The American Interest Online.  July/ 
August 2007.
http://the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=300&MId=14





========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:07 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes  
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero  
> sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It  
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I  
> wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of  
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.

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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 10:21:34 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:21:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Declaring your doubt
In-Reply-To: <DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD467EAE-2AEC-4D80-BEF8-05FC4F8A2D51@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <AC1BFBC0-54D9-4809-8BCA-56748FA7486F@earthlink.net>

Oh, I don't know, David. Well . . . maybe.

Hal

"I don't know what music is."
   		--Ludvig van Beethoven

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Graham wrote:

> On Keats, uncertainty, etc., here's a passage from a recent essay  
> by David Kirby, the whole of which I also recommend:
>
> "Indeed, part of a great poem will be its enduring mystery. Keats  
> interrogates his urn mercilessly: Who are these figures depicted on  
> you? Are they human or divine? Where are they going? What are they  
> doing? He gets an answer???Beauty is truth, truth beauty.?? Yet  
> it?s only a partial answer, for, as the urn says, ??that is all /  
> Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.?? In other words, shut  
> up: I, the urn, will tell you earthlings what you know already, and  
> the rest you?ll find out later, if at all.
>
> There?s a stack of recent poetry books by my desk. Almost at  
> random, they declare their doubt. In some cases, the titles  
> themselves give away the author?s air of uncertainty: There?s  
> Incomplete Knowledge by Jeffrey Harrison, as well as John  
> Gallaher?s The Little Book of Guesses. ?Yesterday for you / I wrote  
> a poem so full / of lies it woke me?, writes Matthew Zapruder in  
> The Pajamist, and the first line of Paisley Rekdal?s ?The Invention  
> of the Kaleidoscope? says simply, ?I am going to fail.?
>
> Yet certainty and doubt are two sides of the same coin, and each of  
> these collections seems to begin in shadow just so it can work its  
> way into the light. If there?s a single quality common to all good  
> poems, it?s that each takes the reader on the full roller coaster  
> ride of idea and emotion, up the peaks and down the valleys. It  
> then drops the reader off at the starting point again, the same  
> person still, though changed."
> --David Kirby.  "Why, Poetry?"  The American Interest Online.  July/ 
> August 2007.
> http://the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=300&MId=14
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:07 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes  
>> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero  
>> sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It  
>> seems to me that's much the fashion
>> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I  
>> wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of  
>> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 10:33:25 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:33:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for pointing
that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from Jeffers'
scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things and
the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things that a
reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."

This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to to
clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the more
complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are all
ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.  Poetry must
concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These have poetic value;
the ephemeral have only news-value."

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he says:
hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and] political
adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this context, btw).  Is
Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term) would never feature an
airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?

Just a few thoughts.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have
> some "certainty" in their saying.
> He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum'
> matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to
> me that's much the fashion
> of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't
> want to avoid a poetry strove,
> at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding
> the stil-point amid the welter.
>
> It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to shed
> light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The
> 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close
> to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to someone
> like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return, e.g
> .).
>
> No answers here...only observations.
> Finnegan
>
>
> It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>
> *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what
> quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and
> which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that
> is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts,
> without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for
> instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the
> Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with
> half-knowledge. *
>
> The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably
> have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow
> ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which
> there are three blackbirds.
>
> I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats
> saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's
> criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior
> quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an
> */irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey.
>
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his
> letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure
> that I know what you're talking about.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <Opus40-01 at opus40.org?>>> wrote:
> >
> > Keats kinda said the same thing.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of
> > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be
> > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to
> > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy.
> > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I
> > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder."
> > >
> > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry,
> > January
> > > 2007
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 10:45:05 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:45:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
qualify as toads in my mind.

"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
explanation."
~ Dana Gioia 



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
pointing that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim
Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."


This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
to clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value." 

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?  

Just a few thoughts.  

Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:

	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty 
	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
seems to me that's much the fashion
	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove, 
	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
finding the stil-point amid the welter.
	
	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
"Return, e.g.).
	
	No answers here...only observations.
	Finnegan
	
	
	

		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers. 
		 
		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *  
		 
		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.  
		 
		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
reason/, *but what the hey.  
		 
		Jeff Newberry wrote: 
		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.  
		> 
		> Jeff Newberry 
		> 
		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote: 
		> 
		> Keats kinda said the same thing. 
		> 
		> Jeff Newberry wrote: 
		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
the walls of 
		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
poetry ought to be 
		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
opportunity to learn to 
		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
claiming indeterminacy. 
		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
reason, but I 
		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
wonder." 
		> > 
		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
Function," Poetry, 
		> January 
		> > 2007 
		


________________________________

	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
what's free from AOL at AOL.com
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
	

	_______________________________________________
	New-Poetry mailing list
	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
<http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> 
	
	




--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 10:55:12 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:55:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?  I'd
love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
>         Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>         He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>         and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
>         of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>         at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
>         It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>         So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>         within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>         Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>         'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
>
>         No answers here...only observations.
>         Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>                 It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>
>                 *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>
>                 The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>
>                 I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
>
>                 Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                 > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>                 >
>                 > Jeff Newberry
>                 >
>                 > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
>                 >
>                 > Keats kinda said the same thing.
>                 >
>                 > Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                 > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
>                 > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
>                 > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
>                 > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
>                 > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
>                 > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
>                 > >
>                 > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
>                 > January
>                 > > 2007
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>         AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 10:59:17 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:59:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

It's from a didactic poem of hers called <hmm hmm> "Poetry". 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:55
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?
I'd love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:

	Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore
said,
	"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM
machines
	qualify as toads in my mind.
	
	"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains
beyond 
	explanation."
	~ Dana Gioia
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	[mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
<mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
	Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
	To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
	Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
	
	Jim,
	
	I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks
for
	pointing that out.
	
	Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes
from
	Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson
Jeffers, Tim 
	Hunt, ed.):
	
	" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
things
	and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal
with things
	that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be
moved by." 
	
	
	This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
goes to
	to clarify his meaning:
	
	"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
circumstances of
	modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of
machinery, the 
	more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
forth, are
	all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist
again.
	Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.
These
	have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
	
	I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is
news that
	stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means
what he 
	says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social,
financial, [and]
	political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
	context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded
term) 
	would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
	
	Just a few thoughts.
	
	Jeff Newberry
	
	
	On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> 
	<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
	
	        Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many
quotes
	that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
	        He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or'
or
	'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
	        and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by
now. It 
	seems to me that's much the fashion
	        of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry.
Personally,
	I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
	        at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is
capable of 
	finding the stil-point amid the welter.
	
	        It's curious that Jackson uses the verb
'illumine'...which means
	to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
	        So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious,
inscrutable, 
	etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
	        within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty'
is a
	notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
	        Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost
a nod to
	someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
	        'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers'
sonnet
	"Return, e.g.).
	
	        No answers here...only observations.
	        Finnegan
	
	
	
	
	                It's the Negative Capability letter. To his
brothers.
	
	                *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at
once it 
	struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
especially in
	Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I
mean
	Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
	uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching
after 
	fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
	isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery,
from
	being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
	
	                The thing is, poetry is kinda different from
life. In 
	life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty
early on.
	In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of
three
	minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
	
	                I've asked this before, but since we're back to
it 
	again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional
wisdom
	seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think
he's
	praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and
answer 
	this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after
fact and
	reason/, *but what the hey.
	
	                Jeff Newberry wrote:
	                > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've
been 
	reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the
passage you
	reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking
about.
	                >
	                > Jeff Newberry 
	                >
	                > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org
> <
	mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >>
wrote:
	                >
	                > Keats kinda said the same thing.
	                >
	                > Jeff Newberry wrote: 
	                > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to
illumine
	the walls of
	                > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I
think
	poetry ought to be
	                > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an

	opportunity to learn to
	                > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
	claiming indeterminacy.
	                > > Our species is deeply defined by its great
surges of
	reason, but I 
	                > > think it high time we return to elemental
awe and
	wonder."
	                > >
	                > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
	Function," Poetry, 
	                > January
	                > > 2007
	
	
	
	________________________________
	
	        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more
about
	what's free from AOL at AOL.com 
	<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
	
	
	        _______________________________________________
	        New-Poetry mailing list
	        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
	        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
	< http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
<http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >
	
	
	
	
	
	
	--
	"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
	recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
	-William Faulkner, Light in August 
	
	
	http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
	
	_______________________________________________
	New-Poetry mailing list
	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
	




--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 




From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 11:33:13 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:33:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707020833m48d38d68s87df4ed81a60e54c@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Steve.

Jeff

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
> It's from a didactic poem of hers called <hmm hmm> "Poetry".
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:55
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?
> I'd love to read the essay(?) itself.
>
> Best,
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:
>
>         Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore
> said,
>         "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM
> machines
>         qualify as toads in my mind.
>
>         "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains
> beyond
>         explanation."
>         ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         [mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> <mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> ] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
>         Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
>         To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>         Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
>         Jim,
>
>         I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks
> for
>         pointing that out.
>
>         Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes
> from
>         Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson
> Jeffers, Tim
>         Hunt, ed.):
>
>         " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
> things
>         and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal
> with things
>         that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be
> moved by."
>
>
>         This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
> goes to
>         to clarify his meaning:
>
>         "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
> circumstances of
>         modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of
> machinery, the
>         more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
> forth, are
>         all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist
> again.
>         Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.
> These
>         have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
>         I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is
> news that
>         stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means
> what he
>         says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social,
> financial, [and]
>         political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
>         context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded
> term)
>         would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
>         Just a few thoughts.
>
>         Jeff Newberry
>
>
>         On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com>
>         <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
>                 Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many
> quotes
>         that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>                 He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or'
> or
>         'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>                 and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by
> now. It
>         seems to me that's much the fashion
>                 of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry.
> Personally,
>         I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>                 at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is
> capable of
>         finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>
>                 It's curious that Jackson uses the verb
> 'illumine'...which means
>         to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>                 So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious,
> inscrutable,
>         etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>                 within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty'
> is a
>         notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>                 Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost
> a nod to
>         someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>                 'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers'
> sonnet
>         "Return, e.g.).
>
>                 No answers here...only observations.
>                 Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>                         It's the Negative Capability letter. To his
> brothers.
>
>                         *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at
> once it
>         struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
> especially in
>         Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I
> mean
>         Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
>         uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching
> after
>         fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
>         isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery,
> from
>         being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>
>                         The thing is, poetry is kinda different from
> life. In
>         life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty
> early on.
>         In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of
> three
>         minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>
>                         I've asked this before, but since we're back to
> it
>         again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional
> wisdom
>         seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think
> he's
>         praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and
> answer
>         this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after
> fact and
>         reason/, *but what the hey.
>
>                         Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                         > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've
> been
>         reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the
> passage you
>         reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking
> about.
>                         >
>                         > Jeff Newberry
>                         >
>                         > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org
> > <
>         mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >>
> wrote:
>                         >
>                         > Keats kinda said the same thing.
>                         >
>                         > Jeff Newberry wrote:
>                         > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to
> illumine
>         the walls of
>                         > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I
> think
>         poetry ought to be
>                         > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
>
>         opportunity to learn to
>                         > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
>         claiming indeterminacy.
>                         > > Our species is deeply defined by its great
> surges of
>         reason, but I
>                         > > think it high time we return to elemental
> awe and
>         wonder."
>                         > >
>                         > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
>         Function," Poetry,
>                         > January
>                         > > 2007
>
>
>
>         ________________________________
>
>                 AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more
> about
>         what's free from AOL at AOL.com
>         <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 New-Poetry mailing list
>                 New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>                 http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>         < http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
>         recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>         -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
>         http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 11:35:09 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:35:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Ellen Solt, 86; poet, poetry critic
Message-ID: <8C98AD5B57235C3-DAC-DACB@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.calendarlive.com/books/la-me-solt29jun29,0,2707374.story?coll=cl-books-features


OBITUARIES
Mary Ellen Solt, 86; poet, poetry critic


By Mary Rourke, Times Staff Writer


Mary Ellen Solt, a poet and poetry critic who often arranged words on the page in a visual graphic, resulting in such works as "Forsythia," a poem that looks like a flowering shrub, has died. She was 86.

Solt died June 21 at Henry Mayo Newhall Memorial Hospital in Santa Clarita after suffering a stroke, her daughter Susan said. 

?
She was a leader in the concrete poetry movement that emerged in the 1960s. It held that the visual effect of letters, words and phrases on a page is an important element in poetry. 

A poem is "an object in its own right for its own sake" that "communicates first and foremost its structure," Solt wrote in her book "Concrete Poetry: A World View," published in 1968.


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 11:35:51 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:35:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>



On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
===============================

Moore was, of course, mainly updating Whitman, who gets most credit  
for inaugurating a strain of American poetry that has dominated since  
the early 20th Century.  Here's his wonderful description of the Muse:

"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for  
herself, striding through the confusion,
By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle undismay'd,
Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,
Smiling and pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,
She's here, install'd amid the kitchen ware!"

--Whitman.  "Song of the Exposition"



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From halvard  Mon Jul  2 11:52:11 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:52:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>

Here's a real poem then:

ATM in Lobby

                         ?Lobby Girl sits on the fat man?s knee-e,
                          fat man happy as he can be-e.?

He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
with some companions what men began to loosen.

Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of  
new dreaming.
We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became lost
in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,

The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.

I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in  
her mouth,
to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.

And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my  
straining cock,
of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring  
the interior
regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that  
will unite
us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders

of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally all
of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground

her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring mind.

No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn?t going
to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had  
prepared
me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of  
discovery.
I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.

Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.


--HJ





"I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
  cheaper than models and they don't move."
			--Georgia O'Keefe

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,  
> Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent  
> things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with  
> things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved  
> by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers  
> goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the  
> circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so  
> forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news  
> that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,  
> [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
> 	
> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
> 	
> 	No answers here...only observations.
> 	Finnegan
> 	
> 	
> 	
>
> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
> 		
> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,  
> especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
> 		
> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
> 		
> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
> 		
> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry
> 		>
> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
> 		>
> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
> 		> >
> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
> 		> January
> 		> > 2007
> 		
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
> 	
>
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	New-Poetry mailing list
> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
> 	
> 	
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 12:00:43 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:00:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Georgia O'Keeffe loved flowers.  I've visited her residence in Abiquiu a
couple of times, and she grew a lot of flowers there.  Just outside her
studio door she grew Datura, which she highly valued as both a flower
and subject matter.  However she'd probably hate this poem.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:52
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Here's a real poem then:

ATM in Lobby

                         "Lobby Girl sits on the fat man's knee-e,
                          fat man happy as he can be-e."

He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
with some companions what men began to loosen.

Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of  
new dreaming.
We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became lost
in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,

The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.

I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in  
her mouth,
to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.

And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my  
straining cock,
of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring  
the interior
regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that  
will unite
us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders

of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally all
of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground

her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring mind.

No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn't going
to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had  
prepared
me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of  
discovery.
I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.

Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.


--HJ





"I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
  cheaper than models and they don't move."
			--Georgia O'Keefe

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
> qualify as toads in my mind.
>
> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
> explanation."
> ~ Dana Gioia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Jim,
>
> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
> pointing that out.
>
> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,  
> Tim
> Hunt, ed.):
>
> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent  
> things
> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with  
> things
> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved  
> by."
>
>
> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers  
> goes to
> to clarify his meaning:
>
> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the  
> circumstances of
> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so  
> forth, are
> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>
> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news  
> that
> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,  
> [and]
> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term)
> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>
> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
> seems to me that's much the fashion
> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
> 	
> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
> "Return, e.g.).
> 	
> 	No answers here...only observations.
> 	Finnegan
> 	
> 	
> 	
>
> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
> 		
> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,  
> especially in
> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after
> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
> 		
> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
> 		
> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
> reason/, *but what the hey.
> 		
> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry
> 		>
> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
> 		>
> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
> 		>
> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
> the walls of
> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
> poetry ought to be
> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
> opportunity to learn to
> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
> claiming indeterminacy.
> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
> reason, but I
> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
> wonder."
> 		> >
> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
> Function," Poetry,
> 		> January
> 		> > 2007
> 		
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
> 	
>
> 	_______________________________________________
> 	New-Poetry mailing list
> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
> 	
> 	
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Jul  2 12:29:43 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:29:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<42C49B01-12CE-489F-895A-F1B38A2C0A8B@earthlink.net>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C21C7@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <26F6EFF8-997B-48B7-9E49-3D0329170617@earthlink.net>

I'd be honored.

Hal

"[News is] what somebody doesn't want you to know.
  All the rest is advertising."
                       --Dan Rather

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 2, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

> Georgia O'Keeffe loved flowers.  I've visited her residence in  
> Abiquiu a
> couple of times, and she grew a lot of flowers there.  Just outside  
> her
> studio door she grew Datura, which she highly valued as both a flower
> and subject matter.  However she'd probably hate this poem.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Halvard  
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:52
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>
> Here's a real poem then:
>
> ATM in Lobby
>
>                          "Lobby Girl sits on the fat man's knee-e,
>                           fat man happy as he can be-e."
>
> He picked up the heavy lamp from the table and began to explore
> the hips tight with her leg, his genuine and less guilty wealth.
> Shampooing her lips, swimming and casting round his eye to delve
> with some companions what men began to loosen.
>
> Her vagina clamped down upon his cock, and he sends Eurylochus
> to explore, to feel it pulsate to her body, shimmer into a herald of
> new dreaming.
> We think we cannot, so then we must investigate this as she became  
> lost
> in the throes of her orgasm. This struck dead their hearts,
>
> The end of this counsel being to persuade his soldiers he had actually
> done it with a woman. Those parts which he knew would prove a most,
> to them, unpleasing motion, to take his cock with her hands and close
> her mouth about the head, and therefore I advise thee to explore.
>
> I now am bound, in purpose, to seek by this device of travel
> to slowly tighten on it, sucking it until she had about half of it in
> her mouth,
> to earn by her deep explorings, to satiate him, sucking on it like
> a popsicle, eyes glued to mine, savoring my every reaction.
>
> And thoughts of sacred Sparta, up and down the coastline of my
> straining cock,
> of our land, its cultivation of the soil and of the mind, exploring
> the interior
> regions of her mouth, preparing by scientific means problems that
> will unite
> us instead of belaboring those problems which invoke the wonders
>
> of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars,
> conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean until finally  
> all
> of my cock was buried in her mouth. As we plumb the vastnesses
> of space, let us go to the new worlds together. She ground
>
> her face against my stomach ere I could explore its wildernesses.
> All forms and substances twisting her head back and forth,
> then returning to fucking my cock with her mouth. At Oxford, I found
> the liberty and seclusion best fitted for my active and exploring  
> mind.
>
> No safer place than college for a youth whose mind wasn't going
> to take anything too roundly. Nothing in my previous experience had
> prepared
> me for the great daring and venture of sailors on new voyages of
> discovery.
> I could feel my balls swelling, getting ready to expel my fluids.
>
> Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me.
>
>
> --HJ
>
>
>
>
>
> "I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're
>   cheaper than models and they don't move."
> 			--Georgia O'Keefe
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
>
>> Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
>> "Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
>> qualify as toads in my mind.
>>
>> "In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond
>> explanation."
>> ~ Dana Gioia
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff  
>> Newberry
>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
>> pointing that out.
>>
>> Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
>> Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers,
>> Tim
>> Hunt, ed.):
>>
>> " . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent
>> things
>> and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with
>> things
>> that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved
>> by."
>>
>>
>> This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers
>> goes to
>> to clarify his meaning:
>>
>> "This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the
>> circumstances of
>> modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the
>> more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so
>> forth, are
>> all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
>> Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
>> have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."
>>
>> I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news
>> that
>> stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he
>> says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial,
>> [and]
>> political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
>> context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded  
>> term)
>> would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?
>>
>> Just a few thoughts.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>>
>> On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
>> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:
>>
>> 	Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
>> that have some "certainty" in their saying.
>> 	He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
>> 'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
>> 	and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It
>> seems to me that's much the fashion
>> 	of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
>> I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
>> 	at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of
>> finding the stil-point amid the welter.
>> 	
>> 	It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
>> to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
>> 	So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable,
>> etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
>> 	within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
>> notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then
>> 	Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
>> someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
>> 	'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
>> "Return, e.g.).
>> 	
>> 	No answers here...only observations.
>> 	Finnegan
>> 	
>> 	
>> 	
>>
>> 		It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.
>> 		
>> 		*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it
>> struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement,
>> especially in
>> Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
>> Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
>> uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching  
>> after
>> fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
>> isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
>> being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *
>> 		
>> 		The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In
>> life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early  
>> on.
>> In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
>> minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.
>> 		
>> 		I've asked this before, but since we're back to it
>> again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
>> seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
>> praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer
>> this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
>> reason/, *but what the hey.
>> 		
>> 		Jeff Newberry wrote:
>> 		> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been
>> reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
>> reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
>> 		>
>> 		> Jeff Newberry
>> 		>
>> 		> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
>> mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
>> 		>
>> 		> Keats kinda said the same thing.
>> 		>
>> 		> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>> 		> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
>> the walls of
>> 		> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
>> poetry ought to be
>> 		> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an
>> opportunity to learn to
>> 		> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
>> claiming indeterminacy.
>> 		> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
>> reason, but I
>> 		> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
>> wonder."
>> 		> >
>> 		> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
>> Function," Poetry,
>> 		> January
>> 		> > 2007
>> 		
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> 	AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
>> what's free from AOL at AOL.com
>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .
>> 	
>>
>> 	_______________________________________________
>> 	New-Poetry mailing list
>> 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
>> 	
>> 	
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 13:14:39 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:14:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>

David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan







"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for herself, striding through the confusion,


By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle 
undismay'd,



Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,


Smiling and 
pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,


She's here, 
install'd amid the kitchen ware!"




--Whitman.? "Song of the Exposition"

?



________________________________________________________________________
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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:34:29 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:34:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00b101c7bccf$45615f90$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

How 'bout: "real unicorns with imaginary tapeworms in them."

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:36 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,

"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines

qualify as toads in my mind.

===============================

 

Moore was, of course, mainly updating Whitman, who gets most credit for
inaugurating a strain of American poetry that has dominated since the early
20th Century.  Here's his wonderful description of the Muse:

 

"Making directly for this rendezvous, vigorously clearing a path for
herself, striding through the confusion,

By thud of machinery and shrill steam-whistle undismay'd,

Bluff'd not a bit by drain-pipe, gasometers, artificial fertilizers,

Smiling and pleas'd with palpable intent to stay,

She's here, install'd amid the kitchen ware!"

 

--Whitman.  "Song of the Exposition"

 

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 

 





 

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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:49:05 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:49:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c7bcd1$4ec02330$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Moore quote from the full version of "Poetry" beginning "I, too, dislike it"
(I cannot lineate in e-mail accurately, so):

 

". . . One must make a distinction / however: when dragged into prominence
by half poets, the result is not poetry, / nor till the poets among us can
be / "literalists of /  the imagination"-above / insolence and triviality
and can present / / for inspection, "imaginary gardens with real toads in
them, shall we have / it. . . ."

 

and the lines are gracefully arranged on the page, or such that rather
officious language ("can present / / for inspection") seems to have an
edenic shine.

 

_The Poems of Marianne Moore_. Ed. Grace Schulman. New York: Penguin, 2003.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:55 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

Good point, Steve.  Do you have a source on that Marianne Moore quote?  I'd
love to read the essay(?) itself.

Best,
Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, Mccall, Steven NAVAIR <steven.mccall at navy.mil> wrote:

Yes, "real poems" would feature an ATM machine.  Marianne Moore said,
"Poetry is imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  ATM machines
qualify as toads in my mind.

"In good art there is almost always a mystery which remains beyond 
explanation."
~ Dana Gioia



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto: <mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

Jim,

I hadn't considered Jeffers' relationship to mystery.  Thanks for
pointing that out.

Jeffers is an interesting case.  Here are a couple of quotes from
Jeffers' scant prose (from The Selected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers, Tim 
Hunt, ed.):

" . . . poetry is bound to concern itself chiefly with permanent things
and the permanent aspects of life [ . . . ] poetry must deal with things
that a reader two thousand years away could understand and be moved by." 


This quote skirts close to Faulkner's "old verities."   Jeffers goes to
to clarify his meaning:

"This [emphasis on the permanent] excludes much of the circumstances of
modern life, especially in cities.  Fashions, forms of machinery, the 
more complex social, financial, political adjustments, and so forth, are
all ephemeral, exceptional; they exist but will never exist again.
Poetry must concern itself with (relatively) permanent things.  These
have poetic value; the ephemeral have only news-value."

I'm reminded, of course, of Pound's pithy dictum:  "Poetry is news that
stays news."  However, I don't know that Jeffers really means what he 
says:  hasn't human society always had "complex social, financial, [and]
political adjustments?" (not sure what adjustments means in this
context, btw).  Is Jeffers arguing that a "real poem" (my loaded term) 
would never feature an airplane, say?  Or an ATM machine?

Just a few thoughts.

Jeff Newberry


On 7/2/07, jforjames at aol.com < jforjames at aol.com
<mailto:jforjames at aol.com> > wrote:

        Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes
that have some "certainty" in their saying. 
        He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or
'zero sum' matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty
        and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It 
seems to me that's much the fashion
        of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally,
I wouldn't want to avoid a poetry strove,
        at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of 
finding the stil-point amid the welter.

        It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means
to shed light, and more generally, to show cleary.
        So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, 
etc.). The 'walls of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall
        within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a
notion close to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
        Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to
someone like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics),
        'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet
"Return, e.g.).

        No answers here...only observations.
        Finnegan




                It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers.

                *several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it 
struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in
Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean
Negative Capability, that is, /when a man is capable of being in
uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after 
fact and reason/-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine
isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from
being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. *

                The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In 
life, we probably have to reach after fact and reason pretty early on.
In poetry, we allow ourselves a little more time. We can be of three
minds, like a tree in which there are three blackbirds.

                I've asked this before, but since we're back to it 
again...what is Keats saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom
seems to be that he's criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's
praising him for a superior quality. I suppose that to try and answer 
this question might constitute an */irritable reaching after fact and
reason/, *but what the hey.

                Jeff Newberry wrote:
                > It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been 
reading through > his letters. I'll try to track down the passage you
reference. I'm > pretty sure that I know what you're talking about.
                >
                > Jeff Newberry 
                >
                > On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org > <
mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote:
                >
                > Keats kinda said the same thing.
                >
                > Jeff Newberry wrote: 
                > > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine
the walls of
                > > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think
poetry ought to be
                > > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an 
opportunity to learn to
                > > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of
claiming indeterminacy.
                > > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of
reason, but I 
                > > think it high time we return to elemental awe and
wonder."
                > >
                > > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social
Function," Poetry, 
                > January
                > > 2007



________________________________

        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
what's free from AOL at AOL.com 
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> .


        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
< <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>






--
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than
recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
-William Faulkner, Light in August 


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders." 
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 

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From skip  Mon Jul  2 13:53:24 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:53:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c7bcd1$e8c94600$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Interesting question. I know that now, as always (I just didn't always know
it), my first question confronting a work of art is: How was it for you?
And, of course, good art gives testimony, even if it is fantastic, baldly
wrong, etc. Perhaps that's too simple.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:07 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?

 

Jackson's quote is a good one...though it's like so many quotes that have
some "certainty" in their saying.
He's framing the battle for poetry's soul as 'either/or' or 'zero sum'
matter. That poetry can live with unceartainty 
and indeterminancy should be pretty well established by now. It seems to me
that's much the fashion
of poetry these days, particular post-avant poetry. Personally, I wouldn't
want to avoid a poetry strove, 
at times, for fixity and exactness. I think a poet is capable of finding the
stil-point amid the welter.

It's curious that Jackson uses the verb 'illumine'...which means to shed
light, and more generally, to show cleary.
So we 'illumine' what is obscure (mysterious, inscrutable, etc.). The 'walls
of mystery' made me think of Plato's wall 
within the cave. And living with 'doubt and uncertainty' is a notion close
to Socrates' notion of 'aphoria'. Then 
Jackson seems to veer off at end this quote with almost a nod to someone
like Robinson Jeffers (or eco-poetics), 
'with a return to elemental awe and wonder'. (Jeffers' sonnet "Return,
e.g.).

No answers here...only observations.
Finnegan



It's the Negative Capability letter. To his brothers. 
 
*several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what
quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and
which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that
is, /when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts,
without any irritable reaching after fact and reason/-Coleridge, for
instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the
Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with
half-knowledge. * 
 
The thing is, poetry is kinda different from life. In life, we probably have
to reach after fact and reason pretty early on. In poetry, we allow
ourselves a little more time. We can be of three minds, like a tree in which
there are three blackbirds. 
 
I've asked this before, but since we're back to it again...what is Keats
saying about Coleridge? The conventional wisdom seems to be that he's
criticizing for a limitation -- I think he's praising him for a superior
quality. I suppose that to try and answer this question might constitute an
*/irritable reaching after fact and reason/, *but what the hey. 
 
Jeff Newberry wrote: 
> It's funny that you mention Keats, Mole. I've been reading through > his
letters. I'll try to track down the passage you reference. I'm > pretty sure
that I know what you're talking about. 
> 
> Jeff Newberry 
> 
> On 7/1/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org >
<mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org?> >> wrote: 
> 
> Keats kinda said the same thing. 
> 
> Jeff Newberry wrote: 
> > " . . . one of poetry's chief aims is to illumine the walls of 
> > mystery, the inscrutable, the unsayable. I think poetry ought to be 
> > taught not as an engine of meaning but as an opportunity to learn to 
> > live in doubt and uncertainty, as a means of claiming indeterminacy. 
> > Our species is deeply defined by its great surges of reason, but I 
> > think it high time we return to elemental awe and wonder." 
> > 
> > --Major Jackson, "Does Poetry Have a Social Function," Poetry, 
> January 
> > 2007 

 

  _____  

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at  <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> AOL.com.

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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 15:46:20 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:46:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it 
in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 15:49:57 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:49:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.ed
	u> <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan

So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.

--Bob
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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 14:58:20 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:58:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.ed	u>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
	<00a101c7bce2$2d0128f0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8C98AF217BC8283-DAC-E5E9@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>

I love the smell of burning paper in the morning. A traditional wastebasket is probably better for the environment.

So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?



David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those gauzy poems full of abstractions 
and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem needs is a toaster."
Finnegan


So I immediately imagined the poem in the toaster.

?

--Bob



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 14:59:04 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:59:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>



On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once  
> read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it  
> again.
>
> --Bob G.
==============

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore  
ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very  
scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his  
view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal  
realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing  
Blake's illustrations of Dante.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From jforjames  Mon Jul  2 15:06:24 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:06:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a well-furnished poem, ready to move in
In-Reply-To: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C98AF3382318D7-DAC-E65B@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>



I posted this quote?recently on another list, and now it again seems apropos to thoughts of toasters,?ATMs and toads in poems...

Thirteen years ago, I had the slightly terrifying honor of talking with the venerated and mellifluous Rabindranath Tagore. We were speaking of the poetry of Baudelaire. Someone recited "La Mort des amants," that sonnet so appointed with beds, couches, flowers, chimneys, mantelpieces, mirrors, and angels. Tagore listened intently, but at the end he exclaimed, "I don't like your furniture poet!" 


- Borges from a review of Tagore's Collected Poems and Plays



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From steven.mccall  Mon Jul  2 15:07:26 2007
From: steven.mccall (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:07:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>

Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
Poetry" as follows:

"In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger

 	              by the light
Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
And music soft, 	 

and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""

Not a very sexy quote.


-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads



On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

	The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
again.

	--Bob G. 

==============

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
about acknowledging her borrowings.  

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================








From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 15:12:15 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:12:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>
	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>




On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:14 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those  
> gauzy poems full of abstractions
> and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this  
> poem needs is a toaster."
> Finnegan
=================

One of my favorite quotes is from Melville, who commented that  
Emerson wrote like a man who had never had a toothache.  I sometimes  
explain the difference between Emerson's and Whitman's take on  
Transcendentalism with this quotation.  Whitman includes the  
amputated limb dropping horribly in a pail; Emerson does not.

I've lost the exact reference for Melville's remark, if anyone would  
like to enlighten me.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================

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From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  2 16:16:37 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:16:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0
	707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.
	mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsu
	sea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>







  On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
    The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.


    --Bob G. 
  ==============


  I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.  


  The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's illustrations of Dante.


  I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in quotes.

  --Bob G.
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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 15:27:39 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:27:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>

And, of course, Larkin:

Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off?

Six days of the week it soils
With its sickening poison -
Just for paying a few bills!
That's out of proportion.

Lots of folk live on their wits:
Lecturers, lispers,
Losers, loblolly-men, louts-
They don't end as paupers;

Lots of folk live up lanes
With fires in a bucket,
Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
They seem to like it.

Their nippers have got bare feet,
Their unspeakable wives
Are skinny as whippets - and yet
No one actually _starves_.

Ah, were I courageous enough
To shout, Stuff your pension!
But I know, all too well, that's the stuff
That dreams are made on:

For something sufficiently toad-like
Squats in me, too;
Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
And cold as snow,

And will never allow me to blarney
My way of getting
The fame and the girl and the money
All at one sitting.

I don't say, one bodies the other
One's spiritual truth;
But I do say it's hard to lose either,
When you have both.



Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
> Poetry" as follows:
>
> "In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
> ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger
>
>  	              by the light
> Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
> And music soft, 	 
>
> and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
> things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
> last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""
>
> Not a very sexy quote.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> 	The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
> once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
> again.
>
> 	--Bob G. 
>
> ==============
>
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
> about acknowledging her borrowings.  
>
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
> of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> illustrations of Dante.
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From grahamd  Mon Jul  2 15:29:41 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:29:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f544
	7ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a0
	707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.
	mil><731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com><279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsu
	sea.nads.navy.mil><007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<00c301c7bce6$ad546e00$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4E9A7575-2D55-4299-9CA6-1D95C7D7E18D@ripon.edu>


On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore  
> ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very  
> scrupulous about acknowledging her borrowings.
>
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his  
> view was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too  
> literal realist of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's  
> discussing Blake's illustrations of Dante.
>
> I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage  
> in quotes.
>
> --Bob G.
================================


 From Representative Poetry Online:

imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore  
places quotation marks around these words, but their source is  
unknown. Possibly Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall"  
in Kenneth Grahame's The Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's  
sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F Fisher Rare Book Library), a  
children's book with real poems in it. Cf. Grahame's account of Toad  
of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was excellent, of course, as  
everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad simply let himself go.  
Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the inexperienced  
Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always mastered by  
his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the joys of  
the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole  
could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
-----------


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================




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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 15:29:53 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:29:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com><46886EBC.7020508@opus40.org><731bb17a0707020531q413f5447ha0d1a02afed9febb@mail.gmail.com><4688FAEC.6010301@opus40.org><8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>	<C2DE0BB4-919E-418C-A1E6-AD9705DA69B9@ripon.edu>	<8C98AE39B5907A1-DAC-E075@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com>
	<C760515E-F65F-4863-BE5E-DE4D3E87F745@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <46895231.6080401@opus40.org>

And I believe it was Hopkins who said that Browning has a way of 
talking, and making his characters talk, like a man jumping up from the 
table with his mouth full of bread and cheese, and saying he will stand 
for no blasted nonsense.

David Graham wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:14 PM, jforjames at aol.com 
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>> David, I'm happy to have this quote. When encountering one of those 
>> gauzy poems full of abstractions 
>> and conventionally poetic images, I have stock line..."What this poem 
>> needs is a toaster."
>> Finnegan
> =================
>
> One of my favorite quotes is from Melville, who commented that Emerson 
> wrote like a man who had never had a toothache.  I sometimes explain 
> the difference between Emerson's and Whitman's take on 
> Transcendentalism with this quotation.  Whitman includes the amputated 
> limb dropping horribly in a pail; Emerson does not.
>
> I've lost the exact reference for Melville's remark, if anyone would 
> like to enlighten me.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Mon Jul  2 15:33:10 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:33:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00e801c7bcdf$d950f980$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Moore sometimes put quotation marks around phrases she's invented, if I
remember correctly. If that is what happens here, " imaginary gardens with
real toads in them," she could have seen the combined image as a shorthand
for the remainder of Yeat's sentence when he goes on to describe the poet as
one who "because he believed that the figures seen by the mind's eye, when
exalted by inspiration, were 'eternal existences,' symbols of divine
essences, . . . hated every grace of style that might obscure their
lineaments." If so (and putting the quotation marks around the second phrase
as though she's continuing the original thought/speaker), then her
commentary-shorthand on Yeats might be seen as quirky by some, properly
deflating by others.

 

A bit supposition heavy, but . . .

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:59 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads

 

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I once read it
in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it again.

 

--Bob G. 

==============

 

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
acknowledging her borrowings.  

 

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.

 

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 

 





 

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From jeff.newberry  Mon Jul  2 15:41:16 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:41:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>
References: <731bb17a0707011731u7ea6dc5al4e05eae2f8b2c022@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C98AC964ADA0A9-B64-DBA1@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
	<731bb17a0707020733p2212c81aqe8cea058b7a892a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2102@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<731bb17a0707020755r4766418fv28b96a7a544cffe1@mail.gmail.com>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C2158@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<007b01c7bce1$ac3d4af0$6ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E2B61A7D-911A-4490-8927-201EE233F2C5@ripon.edu>
	<279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BB017C231E@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil>
	<468951AB.2090006@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707021241jd24ebc2p8980e1c51fe6276@mail.gmail.com>

Tad,

Thanks for posting this.  I love Larkin's work, toads and all.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/2/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> And, of course, Larkin:
>
> Why should I let the toad work
> Squat on my life?
> Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
> And drive the brute off?
>
> Six days of the week it soils
> With its sickening poison -
> Just for paying a few bills!
> That's out of proportion.
>
> Lots of folk live on their wits:
> Lecturers, lispers,
> Losers, loblolly-men, louts-
> They don't end as paupers;
>
> Lots of folk live up lanes
> With fires in a bucket,
> Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
> They seem to like it.
>
> Their nippers have got bare feet,
> Their unspeakable wives
> Are skinny as whippets - and yet
> No one actually _starves_.
>
> Ah, were I courageous enough
> To shout, Stuff your pension!
> But I know, all too well, that's the stuff
> That dreams are made on:
>
> For something sufficiently toad-like
> Squats in me, too;
> Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
> And cold as snow,
>
> And will never allow me to blarney
> My way of getting
> The fame and the girl and the money
> All at one sitting.
>
> I don't say, one bodies the other
> One's spiritual truth;
> But I do say it's hard to lose either,
> When you have both.
>
>
>
> Mccall, Steven NAVAIR wrote:
> > Keats also mentions toads in his essay "The Philosophy of Shelley's
> > Poetry" as follows:
> >
> > "In "Prometheus Unbound" he sees, as in the ecstasy of a saint, the
> > ships moving among the seas of the world without fear of danger
> >
> >                     by the light
> > Of wave-reflected flowers, and floating odours,
> > And music soft,
> >
> > and poison dying out of green things, and cruelty out of all living
> > things, and even the toads and efts [newts] becoming beautiful, and at
> > last Time being borne "to his tomb in eternity.""
> >
> > Not a very sexy quote.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 14:59
> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> >       The toads are a quotation from a Yeats essay, actually, and I
> > once read it in the essay of its origin, but never was able to find it
> > again.
> >
> >       --Bob G.
> >
> > ==============
> >
> > I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> > ascribes to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous
> > about acknowledging her borrowings.
> >
> > The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> > was from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist
> > of imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> > illustrations of Dante.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >
> > Home Page:
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> >
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> > ==========================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From skip  Mon Jul  2 16:15:47 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <4E9A7575-2D55-4299-9CA6-1D95C7D7E18D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as the
genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she was
gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping with
her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities. 

 

Well . . .  

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads

 

 

On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
acknowledging her borrowings.  

 

The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
illustrations of Dante.

 

I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
quotes.

 

--Bob G.

================================

 

 

>From Representative Poetry Online:

 

imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore places
quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown. Possibly
Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's The
Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F
Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the
inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the
joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole
could hardly sit in his chair for excitement" 

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html

-----------

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

 

Home Page:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

 

Poetry Library:

http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html

==========================================

 





 

 

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From cervantes.james  Mon Jul  2 19:27:49 2007
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 18:27:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
Message-ID: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>

Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk

Plus, there's more!

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/



From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 20:45:59 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:45:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46899C47.3040902@opus40.org>

I love that. And I'm a Billy Collins admirer, but I think the animation 
steals the show there.

James Cervantes wrote:
> Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
>
> Plus, there's more!
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Mon Jul  2 20:50:27 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:50:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>

"Now and Then" os the best one.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xiWuwGq8M&mode=related&search=



James Cervantes wrote:
> Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
>
> Plus, there's more!
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From cervantes.james  Tue Jul  3 10:05:50 2007
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:05:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] visualize your metaphors
In-Reply-To: <46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>
References: <648208b60707021627h7e4f0cbem425233e2fa2a1b70@mail.gmail.com>
	<46899D53.7010905@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <648208b60707030705t5804be0eve5959db969681c3d@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I like it when the ice cream truck bonks the birdie on the head.
 Meta-Collins.

- Jim

On 7/2/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
> "Now and Then" os the best one.
>
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xiWuwGq8M&mode=related&search=
>
>
>
> James Cervantes wrote:
> > Passing this on, which appeared on another list a couple of days ago.
> > You might call it The Illustrated Billy Collins.
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuTNdHadwbk
> >
> > Plus, there's more!
> >
> > -- Jim
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> > ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> > ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
> > ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/



From suelin7184  Tue Jul  3 14:51:00 2007
From: suelin7184 (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 13:51:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
Message-ID: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?

thanks,
lsg 
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From screwzbaran  Tue Jul  3 15:14:10 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:14:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
In-Reply-To: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA

On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but
> lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?
>
> thanks,
> lsg
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From suelin7184  Tue Jul  3 17:35:04 2007
From: suelin7184 (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:35:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
	<2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I don't see anything on that page that answers my question.  What am I missing?

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Suzanne Baran 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] line recognition


  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA


  On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
    Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?

    thanks,
    lsg 

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





  -- 
  "What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses." 
  - Daisaku Ikeda 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From elemenope_productions  Tue Jul  3 17:39:37 2007
From: elemenope_productions (R Dillon)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:39:37 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toad Poem
Message-ID: <BLU103-W44BCF61674C7B2559BE7FA900C0@phx.gbl>


And then there's the Zen poem everybody's read:
 
 
 
 
Toad - -
           KerPlop!
------------------Jumped!
 
 
 
 
RD
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!??
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink
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From screwzbaran  Tue Jul  3 17:43:04 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:43:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
In-Reply-To: <001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <002001c7bda3$196e81e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
	<2d5ffa0b0707031214p459e64c7v348aa063f252ff25@mail.gmail.com>
	<001301c7bdba$04e4f8f0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707031443v1a502230p410bf694ef7c28c@mail.gmail.com>

i just sent another article, sorry.

On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I don't see anything on that page that answers my question.  What am I
> missing?
>
> lsg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Suzanne Baran <screwzbaran at gmail.com>
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] line recognition
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_en_ot/obit_solt;_ylt=Aq09OvlEH.0YnXUqP14m_TJX24cA
>
> On 7/3/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but
> > lo! one solitary gull still sentineled the lonely rock"?
> >
> > thanks,
> > lsg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
> giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
> life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
> persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
> winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
> - Daisaku Ikeda
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From edmundhardy  Tue Jul  3 18:19:22 2007
From: edmundhardy (Edmund Hardy)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:19:22 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Riley blog symposium
In-Reply-To: <200707021836.l62IZxKR021377@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY112-F19AF1467A7BF0688CECFC8BA0C0@phx.gbl>




http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2007/07/peter-riley-blog-symposium.html

"Intercapillary Space" invites you to contribute a blog post, letter, 
closely argued essay, postcard, diary entry, painting or some other reaction 
to the work of Peter Riley (as writer and editor) for a Blog Symposium 
planned for the week beginning on monday 8th October.

This idea was prompted by the publication, earlier this year, of The Day's 
Final Balance: uncollected writings 1965-2006 and The Llyn Writings from 
Shearsman.

If you are interested please email edmundhardy at hotmail.com


Please forward this notice to any who may be interested.


Link:

http://www.aprileye.co.uk/
Peter Riley's website: who is Peter Riley, what has he published, what is 
his work like, what does he look like, where can I read more of him?

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here!  http://www.newhotmail.co.uk




From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 19:26:18 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 19:26:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] & Frogs
Message-ID: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>

 
The Poets Agree to Be Quiet by the Swamp   
They hold their hands over their  mouths 
And stare at the stretch of  water. 
What can be said has been said before:   
Strokes of light like herons' legs in the  cattails, 
Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.   
Therefore, the poets may keep quiet.   
But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.   
They stick their elbows out into the evening,   
Stoop, and begin the ancient  croaking. 
-  David Wagoner, Collected Poems 1956-1976



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From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 19:34:11 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 19:34:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] line recognition
Message-ID: <cbb.1438ecf5.33bd8873@aol.com>

 
_http://www.poetrylibrary.org.uk/queries/lostquotes/_ 
(http://www.poetrylibrary.org.uk/queries/lostquotes/) 
This site might help.
Finnegan
 
In a message dated 7/3/2007 2:50:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
suelin7184 at gmail.com writes:

Anyone recognize this:  "They wheeled and vanished in a flock, but  lo! one 
solitary gull still sentineled the lonely  rock"?
 



 



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From chris.lott  Wed Jul  4 19:49:29 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:49:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] & Frogs
In-Reply-To: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>
References: <c0e.1373c778.33bd869a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707041649j40129f84kd8244f85bb6ef10f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, a toad rather than frogs, but I'm no biologist...

The Toad
Juan Jose Arreola

Every so often he jumps, just to make it clear that he is essentially
immobile. The jump is in some way like a heartbeat; careful
observation makes it plain that the whole of the toad is a heart.

Clamped in a hunk of cold mud, the toad sinks into the winter like a
mournful chrysalis. He wakes in the spring knowing that he has not
changed into anything else. Dried to his depths, he is more a toad
than ever. He waits in silence for the first rains.

And one fine day he heaves himself out of the pliant earth, heavy with
moisture, swollen with spiteful sap, like a heart tossed onto the
ground. In his sphinxlike posture there is a secret proposition of
exchange, and the toad's ugliness appalls us like a mirror.



From JforJames  Wed Jul  4 22:07:29 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:07:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MURPHY'S POETRY LAWS
Message-ID: <cfe.117dea30.33bdac61@aol.com>

on Gary Sullivan's blog...
_http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/2007/06/murphys-poetry-laws-if-at-first-you.
html_ 
(http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/2007/06/murphys-poetry-laws-if-at-first-you.html) 



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From bmarcacci  Thu Jul  5 04:44:12 2007
From: bmarcacci (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:44:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

DEATH OF A NATURALIST
by Seamus Heaney

All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
of the townland; green and heavy headed
Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
But best of all was the warm thick slobber
Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
Specks to range on window-sills at home,
On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
The fattening dots burst into nimble-
Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
For they were yellow in the sun and brown
In rain.

Then one hot day when fields were rank
With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.

-- 
Bob Marcacci

Take time to come home to yourself everyday.
 - Robin Casarjean
 


> From: Skip Fox <skip at louisiana.edu>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
> To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views'"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Toads
> 
> I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as the
> genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she was
> gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping with
> her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities.
> 
>  
> 
> Well . . .  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore ascribes
> to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
> acknowledging her borrowings.
> 
>  
> 
> The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view was
> from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
> imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> illustrations of Dante.
> 
>  
> 
> I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
> quotes.
> 
>  
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> ================================
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>> From Representative Poetry Online:
> 
>  
> 
> imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore places
> quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown. Possibly
> Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's The
> Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at del F
> Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
> Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
> excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
> simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon the
> inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
> mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and the
> joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the Mole
> could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
> 
> http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
> 
> -----------
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ========================================
> 
> David Graham
> 
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> 
>  
> 
> Home Page:
> 
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> 
>  
> 
> Poetry Library:
> 
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> 
> ==========================================
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From jeff.newberry  Thu Jul  5 08:44:09 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:44:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
References: <010101c7bce5$ccca9670$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707050544m139c3fefr17f0c8fdb1d8ee66@mail.gmail.com>

Another favorite.  Thanks for posting this, Bob.

Jeff Newberry

On 7/5/07, Bob Marcacci <bmarcacci at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> DEATH OF A NATURALIST
> by Seamus Heaney
>
> All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
> of the townland; green and heavy headed
> Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
> Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
> Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
> Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
> There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
> But best of all was the warm thick slobber
> Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
> In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
> I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
> Specks to range on window-sills at home,
> On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
> The fattening dots burst into nimble-
> Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
> The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
> And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
> Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
> Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
> For they were yellow in the sun and brown
> In rain.
>
> Then one hot day when fields were rank
> With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
> Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
> To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
> Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
> Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
> On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
> The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
> Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
> I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
> Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
> That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.
>
> --
> Bob Marcacci
>
> Take time to come home to yourself everyday.
> - Robin Casarjean
>
>
>
> > From: Skip Fox <skip at louisiana.edu>
> > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:15:47 -0500
> > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views'"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> > I love this, using the talkative toad in _The Wind and the Willows_, as
> the
> > genesis  for the phrase. This does not preclude the possibility that she
> was
> > gently deflating Yeats' sense of grandeur, which would be in keeping
> with
> > her more restrained views of the poet's mission and abilities.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:30 PM
> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toads
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > I'm skeptical.  The phrase "literalists of the imagination" Moore
> ascribes
> > to Yeats, but not the toads.  She was typically very scrupulous about
> > acknowledging her borrowings.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Yeats is from *Ideas of Good and Evil*:  "The limitation of his view
> was
> > from the very intensity of his vision; he was a too literal realist of
> > imagination, as others are of nature...."  He's discussing Blake's
> > illustrations of Dante.
> >
> >
> >
> > I could easily be wrong, but note that Moore puts the toads passage in
> > quotes.
> >
> >
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> > ================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From Representative Poetry Online:
> >
> >
> >
> > imaginary gardens with real toads in them: in some editions, Moore
> places
> > quotation marks around these words, but their source is unknown.
> Possibly
> > Moore had in mind "the garden front of Toad Hall" in Kenneth Grahame's
> The
> > Wind in the Willows (New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1907; 1913 copy at
> del F
> > Fisher Rare Book Library), a children's book with real poems in it. Cf.
> > Grahame's account of Toad of Toad Hall: "During luncheon -- which was
> > excellent, of course, as everything at Toad Hall always was -- the Toad
> > simply let himself go. Disregarding the Rat, he proceeded to play upon
> the
> > inexperienced Mole as on a harp. Naturally a voluble animal, and always
> > mastered by his imagination, he painted the prospects of the trip and
> the
> > joys of the open life and the roadside in such glowing colours that the
> Mole
> > could hardly sit in his chair for excitement"
> >
> > http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
> >
> > -----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ========================================
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > Home Page:
> >
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Poetry Library:
> >
> > http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> >
> > ==========================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul  5 09:27:11 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:27:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toads
In-Reply-To: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
References: <C2B27BFC.9968%bmarcacci@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468CF1AF.7020001@opus40.org>

Good one.

Bob Marcacci wrote:
> DEATH OF A NATURALIST
> by Seamus Heaney
>
> All year the flax-dam festered in the heart
> of the townland; green and heavy headed
> Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods.
> Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun.
> Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles
> Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell.
> There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies,
> But best of all was the warm thick slobber
> Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water
> In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring
> I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied
> Specks to range on window-sills at home,
> On shelves at school, and wait and watch until
> The fattening dots burst into nimble-
> Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how
> The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
> And how he croaked and how the mammy frog
> Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was
> Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too
> For they were yellow in the sun and brown
> In rain.
>
> Then one hot day when fields were rank
> With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs
> Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges
> To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
> Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus.
> Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked
> On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
> The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat
> Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
> I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
> Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
> That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it.
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jimgoar  Sat Jul  7 13:35:20 2007
From: jimgoar (jim goar)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] past simple 3
Message-ID: <486663.82530.qm@web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

past simple 3 is ready to be seen.  Eat the words for
lunch.

www.pastsimple.org



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz 



From gmguddi  Sat Jul  7 18:59:53 2007
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:59:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at jacket
	magazine 
Message-ID: <46901AE9.8030205@ilstu.edu>


http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml


George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Katie Degentesh
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan




From Rsgwynn1  Sat Jul  7 19:38:19 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:38:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at jacket
	magazine 
Message-ID: <cc6.15a43961.33c17deb@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/7/2007 5:59:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: 
> 
> http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml
> 
> 
> George Bowering
> Maxine Chernoff
> Katie Degentesh
> Gabriel Gudding
> Rachel Loden
> Ange Mlinko
> K. Silem Mohammad
> D. A. Powell
> Ron Silliman
> Gary Sullivan

"A grave and dark-clad company," quoth Goodman Brown.   
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From halvard  Sat Jul  7 20:33:26 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:33:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Submissions requested for another Big Bridge anthology
Message-ID: <D3AB97A2-AF3A-47D3-AD63-91C7A8174002@earthlink.net>

Friends and neighbors--

For a second mini-anthology of poems, this time inspired by/ 
responding to/related to
Czeslaw Milosz's poem "Dedication" and/or the various wars/ 
insurgencies/etc. going
on in the world today, please send 1-6 poems to me at  
halvard at earthlink.net with the
words "Big Bridge" followed by your own name clearly in the subject  
line. Please,
when sending attachments, send all poems in a single attachment.

This mini-anthology (approx. 30 poems) will appear in the January  
issue of Big Bridge,
and I'll consider submissions of work received before the end of  
November.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



Dedication

You whom I could not save
Listen to me.
Try to understand this simple speech as I would be ashamed of another.
I swear, there is in me no wizardry of words.
I speak to you with silence like a cloud or a tree.

What strengthened me, for you was lethal.
You mixed up farewell to an epoch with the beginning of a new one,
Inspiration of hatred with lyrical beauty,
Blind force with accomplished shape.

Here is the valley of shallow Polish rivers. And an immense bridge
Going into white fog. Here is a broken city,
And the wind throws the screams of gulls on your grave
When I am talking with you.

What is poetry which does not save
Nations or people?
A connivance with official lies,
A song of drunkards whose throats will be cut in a moment,
Readings for sophomore girls.
That I wanted good poetry without knowing it,
That I discovered, late, its salutary aim,
In this and only this I find salvation.

They used to pour millet on graves or poppy seeds
To feed the dead who would come disguised as birds.
I put this book here for you, who once lived
So that you should visit us no more.

--Czeslaw Milosz, Warsaw, 1945

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From r_loden  Sat Jul  7 21:02:01 2007
From: r_loden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:02:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a roundtable discussion on humor in poetry at
	jacketmagazine 
In-Reply-To: <cc6.15a43961.33c17deb@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c7c0fb$97cb8410$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>

But Sam (hi Sam)--

Had Goodman Brown fallen asleep in the forest and only dreamed a wild dream
of a witch-meeting?

	
	In a message dated 7/7/2007 5:59:56 PM Central Standard Time,
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: 
	

		http://jacketmagazine.com/33/humpo-discussion.shtml
		
		
		George Bowering
		Maxine Chernoff
		Katie Degentesh
		Gabriel Gudding
		Rachel Loden
		Ange Mlinko
		K. Silem Mohammad
		D. A. Powell
		Ron Silliman
		Gary Sullivan



	"A grave and dark-clad company," quoth Goodman Brown. 





From jforjames  Sun Jul  8 19:50:02 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:50:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Darwish back in Israel
Message-ID: <8C98FD1D6101678-17D8-CFFD@MBLK-R09.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/877502.html

Palestinian national poet Mahmoud Darwish set to return to Haifa for first time since 1971 
?
By Yoav Stern 
?
Palestinian national poet and writer Mahmoud Darwish is expected to take part in a literary event in Haifa, for the first time since leaving Israel more than 35 years ago.


Hadash Secretary Iman Ouda told Haaretz yesterday that the Defense Ministry has permitted Darwish to attend the event at Mt. Carmel Auditorium on July 15.

Hadash said the event, held jointly with Masharaf magazine, will focus on the poet and his work. Darwish worked and wrote in Haifa for many years. 


Darwish was born in 1941 in the village of Al-Birwah, which was destroyed in 1948. His family stayed in Lebanon briefly as refugees and then returned to the village of Jedida in the Galilee. Darwish lived in Israel until 1971, when he left for Moscow to take a course given by the Communist Party. He did not return to Israel to live, probably due to persecution by the establishment.

?


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From amyhappens  Mon Jul  9 16:59:58 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW:  Joe Book Advice
In-Reply-To: <203004.7935.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <67315.3578.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Dear Poets,
   
  The below message is a request for info from Ron Padgett.  Please backchannel your suggestions to amyhappens at yahoo.com so that I can forward them all in one email to
 him.

And thank you for any help on the matter!
   
  Amy


The publisher of Joe Brainard's forthcoming THE NANCY BOOK (a
 collection of his Nancy images, as well as his Nancy writings, with an
 introduction by Ann Lauterbach) has asked me for the following info, and I'm
 relaying the question to you, since you know 100 times more about it than
 I do:
 
 Names/contact info for various blogs, listservs and sites that have
 had an interest in or featured Joe's work in particular, New York School
 work in general, etc. Also, names of on-line literary and art reviews,
 individual bloggers, etc. who you know and you think would be excited
 about the book so that they can link to Siglio and/or talk about the
 book.
 
 Can you get back to me within the next few days?
 
 Thanks.
 
 Ron


       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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From jforjames  Wed Jul 11 13:59:14 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:59:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Li Bai", the opera
Message-ID: <8C991FC538DBCDC-1720-82F0@webmail-da01.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6306657

Poetic justice for "Li Bai"
Opera brings to life a Chinese verse master
By Kyle MacMillan Denver Post Fine Arts Critic
Article Last Updated: 07/06/2007 01:59:28 PM MDT


If the name Li Bai means little in the West, the Tang Dynasty poet stands as tall in the Chinese cultural consciousness as William Shakespeare does in the English- speaking world. 


Long a fan of his expressive, sometimes playful writings, Diana Liao conceived the idea of an opera based on his life in 2000 and set about writing a libretto in conjunction with playwright Xu Ying. 


Seven years later, the fruits of her labor and those of dozens of other Chinese and American participants in the cross-cultural project will be unveiled when Central City Opera's world premiere of Guo Wenjing's "Poet Li Bai" opens Saturday. 


The work comes at a pivotal moment, when the surging Chinese classical-music scene is asserting itself internationally, and the West seems hungry for the creative reinvigoration that can blossom from the cross-fertilization of these two ancient cultures. 


"Poet Li Bai" is part of a series of new operas by the first group of composers after the Cultural Revolution, including Tan Dun's "The First Emperor," which debuted in December at the Metropolitan Opera amid a flurry of publicity. 



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From jforjames  Thu Jul 12 08:50:42 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:50:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Booth obit
Message-ID: <8C9929A63EDA3A3-7E4-A507@webmail-db16.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/arts/09booth.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Philip Booth, a Shy Poet Rooted in New England Life, Dead at 81 
?
By ROJA HEYDARPOUR
Published: July 9, 2007

Philip Booth, a poet known for his explorations of existence and New England in an intense, sparse style, died on July 2 in Hanover, N.H. He was 81 and had split his time between Hanover and Castine, Me., for many years. 


________________________________________________________________________
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 12 10:55:18 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:55:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Pablo Neruda
Message-ID: <469640D6.5070509@opus40.org>

WALKING AROUND

It so happens I am sick of being a man.
And it happens that I walk into tailor shops and movie houses
dried up, waterproof, like a swan made of felt
steering my way in a water of wombs and ashes.

The smell of barbershops makes me break into hoarse sobs.
The only thing I want is to lie still like stones or wool.
The only thing I want is to see no more stores, no gardens,
no more goods, no spectacles, no elevators.

It so happens that I am sick of my feet and my nails
and my hair and my shadow.
It so happens I am sick of being a man.

Still it would be marvelous
to terrify a law clerk with a cut lily,
or kill a nun with a blow on the ear.
It would be great
to go through the streets with a green knife
letting out yells until I died of the cold.

I don?t want to go on being a root in the dark,
insecure, stretched out, shivering with sleep,
going on down, into the moist guts of the earth,
taking in and thinking, eating every day.

I don?t want so much misery.
I don?t want to go on as a root and a tomb,
alone under the ground, a warehouse with corpses,
half frozen, dying of grief.

That?s why Monday, when it sees me coming
with my convict face, blazes up like gasoline,
and it howls on its way like a wounded wheel,
and leaves tracks full of warm blood leading toward the night.

And it pushes me into certain corners, into some moist houses,
into hospitals where the bones fly out the window,
into shoeshops that smell like vinegar,
and certain streets hideous as cracks in the skin.

There are sulphur-colored birds, and hideous intestines
hanging over the doors of houses that I hate,
and there are false teeth forgotten in a coffeepot,
there are mirrors
that ought to have wept from shame and terror,
there are umbrellas everywhere, and venoms, and umbilical cords.

I stroll along serenely, with my eyes, my shoes,
my rage, forgetting everything,
I walk by, going through office buildings and orthopedic shops,
and courtyards with washing hanging from the line:
underwear, towels and shirts from which slow
dirty tears are falling.





-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jforjames  Thu Jul 12 16:46:48 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:46:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slam, 2007 in Austin
Message-ID: <8C992DCE70AB8B8-D40-BCE8@WEBMAIL-RE17.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.austinslam.com/nps07/press.php

National Poetry Slam
August 7-11, in Austin TX
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From jforjames  Fri Jul 13 15:10:16 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:10:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey  
Message-ID: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.todayinliterature.com/index.asp
?
Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey? 


?On this day in 1798 William Wordsworth finished writing "Lines Composed a Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey," the poem being worked out in his head during a four-day walking tour? 


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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 13 15:24:55 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:24:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/13/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.todayinliterature.com/index.asp
>
>  Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
>
>   On this day in 1798 William Wordsworth finished writing "Lines Composed a
> Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey," the poem being worked out in his head during
> a four-day walking tour

Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry. It's a
sign of something, I am sure, that I feel nearly ashamed at admitting
I still care for a lot of Wordsworth's poems. How quiet and irrelevant
I am.

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 13 18:11:45 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:11:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think "Tintern Abbey" was voted all-time best poem in English around the 
turn of the last century, Chris.  I don't remember any details.  Anyway, I 
think it's the best extended lyric I know.  And a contender for the best 
poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with 
twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")

--Bob 





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 13 18:51:57 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:51:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<001801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707131551y67f94206tb6a6471ce7b997d8@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/13/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> a contender for the best
> poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with
> twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")

Good try, but you won't hook me with that lure this time!

I might be coming around about "lighght" but not the others. Yet :)

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 13 20:45:13 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:45:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
References: <8C99398949F14B1-998-3199@WEBMAIL-RE20.sysops.aol.com><9b1b9dab0707131224o1e835080q5e828616364acdf2@mail.gmail.com><0
	01801c7c59a$cf8a47d0$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707131551y67f94206tb6a6471ce7b997d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001c7c5b0$3f655530$17fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 7/13/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> a contender for the best
>> poem of any kind I know.  Actually, it'd probably finish in a tie with
>> twenty or thirty other poems, such as "lighght."  (And, ugh, "tundra!")
> 
> Good try, but you won't hook me with that lure this time!
> 
> I might be coming around about "lighght" but not the others. Yet :)
> 
> c

Better watch out for the slippery slope!

--Bob




From JforJames  Sun Jul 15 21:30:24 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:30:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
Message-ID: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

Thanks  for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time  that really got me interested in poetry.


Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that poem  
doesn't know what poetry is.
 
Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister  Bridge." 
Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above a  scene and 
taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. Wordsworth's nice  outward turn 
at the end, "And all that mighty heart is lying still." 
 
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Opus40-01  Sun Jul 15 21:38:10 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:38:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
References: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469ACC02.8000900@opus40.org>

Only tangentially relevant, but the poem that really stands out for me 
as the quintessence of Romanticism is Coleridge's "This Lime Tree Bower 
My Prison."

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
>
>     Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
>     centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry.
>
> Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that 
> poem doesn't know what poetry is.
>  
> Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister 
> Bridge." Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above 
> a scene and taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. 
> Wordsworth's nice outward turn at the end, "And all that mighty heart 
> is lying still."
>  
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Mon Jul 16 14:53:51 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:53:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey
In-Reply-To: <bb9.1af46917.33cc2430@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7c7da$acf231a0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

?Tinturn Abbey? is another Greater Romantic Lyric. The piece pretends to be
written in the present, goes from mild observation to a heightened energetic
state of meditation, back to a milder phase of observation, then up one last
time to the highest meditative state. Sometimes they end, as Coleridge?s
?Frost at Midnight,? falling ? back into a state of lower energy combining
observation and meditation. Right to associate with other poetry from a
prominence, and that goes back to the Hill Poets of the 18th century. Braced
by the new psychological awareness that the mind works in associative
strings, these poets? narrators climbed hills in their poems and then
described the grand landscapes they saw below. Interesting poems. All
pretended to be written on the spot like ?Tintern Abbey.? As was Arnold?s
?Stanzas from the Grande Chartreuse,? another poem of ascent. I think it was
the Romanic belief that the unfrettered associative mind in conjunction with
the world has itself aesthetic benefit. Later Ginsberg wrote, ?Mind is
shapely,? I think giving voice to the same thing. Of course, the stance was
_as though_ it was improvised. As ?Tintern Abbey.? 

 

Presumptively improvisational poetry, one which alludes to its own immediate
nature, is very interesting. You?d think that Whitman would have relished in
it, but he didn?t much (?by these tears made a boy again?). Ginsberg and
Antin probably do the ?real thing,? more or less. Who else?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 8:30 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wordsworth at Tintern Abbey

 

In a message dated 7/13/2007 3:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

Thanks for the link. I love that poem... it was one of the
centerpieces in a time that really got me interested in poetry.

Chris, I would go so far as saying that anyone who doesn't love that poem
doesn't know what poetry is.

 

Another of my Wordsworth essentials is "Composed Upon Westminister Bridge."
Lots of analogs for it in contemporary poetry. Standing above a scene and
taking it in, with the filter of poetic insight. Wordsworth's nice outward
turn at the end, "And all that mighty heart is lying still." 

 

Finnegan





  _____  

Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> .

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From pmetres  Mon Jul 16 16:08:21 2007
From: pmetres (Philip Metres)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:08:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] what's new on behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com
Message-ID: <20070716160821.AMU51025@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Here's what's new on www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com 

If you've got a poem or essay on war, peace, and the cultural work of poetry that you'd like included/reviewed, send it along to me. 

July 

--Bob Perelman's "Shock and Awe" and Dick Cheney's Mind/A 21st Century "Wichita Vortex Sutra" 
--Poets Against the War reading in Iowa from November 2005 
--Hayan Charara's "Usage" 
--Dunya Mikhail 
--Poems of Peace, Poems of War/Chicago Humanities Festival 2006 
--Voices from Guantanamo/The Cultural Work of Poetry 
--Sinan Antoon, Iraqi Poet, on "Democracy Now" 
--Larissa Shmailo's "Exorcism"/Found Poems, Incantations 
--Samih al-Qasim's "End of a Talk with a Jailer"/Walls and the Security State continued 
--David-Baptiste Chirot's Raw War/The Walls of the Security State 
--Meeting Walt at Thirty-Seven/My Birthday Today 
--Barrett Watten & Carl Sandburg's "Buttons" 
--Peace Signs 
--d.a.levy & the turn toward concrete poetry 
? June (10) 
--Randall Jarrell's "The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" 
--Nguyen Duy's "Oh Stone" and John Bradley's "Bosnia Bosnia" 
--Len Sousa's Poetry/Music Mashups: Lowell's "For th Union Dead" 
--Baring Witness: Donna Sheehan and "For the Fifty" 
--Penny Allen and the National Campaign for a Peace Tax Fund 
--Rebecca Solnit and Reasons for Hope 
--Gambling on Non-Violence: An Interview with Ralph DiGia 
--From Vietnam to September 11th: An Interview with Robert Bly 
--"Poetry and the Peace Movement 
--Opening Salvo 


peaceout, 


Philip Metres
Associate Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
fax: (216) 397-1723
http://www.philipmetres.com
http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com






From jforjames  Tue Jul 17 17:00:21 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:00:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Forward nominees
Message-ID: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6902203.stm

Activist on list for poetry prize? 
Mapanje's first poetry book was banned in Malawi, his home nation 

A former political prisoner and human rights activist from Malawi has been nominated for the Forward Prize, which promotes contemporary poetry. 

Jack Mapanje was detained for three years until his release in 1991, and his most recent work, Beast of Nalunga, is shortlisted for best collection. 


Also in the running for the ?10,000 award is Luke Kennard, 26, the youngest nominee in the history of the prize. 

Eavan Boland, Sean O'Brien, Adam Thorpe and John Burnside complete the list. 


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From jforjames  Tue Jul 17 17:13:56 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:13:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>


http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
On the edge, not of the edge
By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
Posted: 7/17/07

Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the masses. 


"[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."


Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that doesn't require a literary genius to decode.


"It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."

?

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From AlMaginnes  Tue Jul 17 17:17:39 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:17:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <cf4.10546340.33ce8bf3@aol.com>

I get the straightforward, but where's the  mystical?



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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 17 18:14:50 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:14:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Forward nominees
In-Reply-To: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C996CC9F2C15D9-9A4-56A2@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469D3F5A.800@opus40.org>

A good site on Mapanje, with audio.

http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoet.do?poetId=5495#

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6902203.stm
> Activist on list for poetry prize 
> Mapanje's first poetry book was banned in Malawi, his home nation
>
> A former political prisoner and human rights activist from Malawi has 
> been nominated for the Forward Prize, which promotes contemporary poetry.
>
> Jack Mapanje was detained for three years until his release in 1991, 
> and his most recent work, Beast of Nalunga, is shortlisted for best 
> collection.
>
> Also in the running for the ?10,000 award is Luke Kennard, 26, the 
> youngest nominee in the history of the prize.
> Eavan Boland, Sean O'Brien, Adam Thorpe and John Burnside complete the 
> list.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 17 18:19:20 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:19:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>

"I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."

Yeah, me too. But I don't necessarily write thinking "what will the 
greatest number of people relate to it?" I'm satisfied if I can fill up 
a stateroom, like the Marx Brothers.

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
> On the edge, not of the edge
> By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
> Posted: 7/17/07
>
> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of 
> alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to 
> the masses.
>
> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel 
> rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow 
> American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American 
> poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."
>
> Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites 
> readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that 
> doesn't require a literary genius to decode.
>
> "It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate 
> to my poem to be invited into it."
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jfq  Tue Jul 17 19:12:04 2007
From: jfq (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0707171612040.19553@hymn08.u.washington.edu>

yawn. I've had enough of anti-intellectualism. particularly in the arts.


On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 jforjames at aol.com wrote:

>
> http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/07/17/Arts/On.The.Edge.Not.Of.The.Edge-2924347.shtml
> On the edge, not of the edge
> By: Julie Urbanek - The Daily Iowan
> Posted: 7/17/07
>
> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the masses.
>
>
> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."
>
>
> Teacher by day and writer by night, the unconventional poet invites readers into his work with a straightforward yet mystical style that doesn't require a literary genius to decode.
>
>
> "It's greed," Goetsch said. "I want everyone who can possibly relate to my poem to be invited into it."
>
> ?
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
>






From gejs1  Tue Jul 17 19:54:30 2007
From: gejs1 (Gerald Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:54:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com>
	<469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000d01c7c8cd$d1956bf0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b>

>> Perplexing metaphors, incomprehensible allusions, that feeling of 
>> alienation: American poetry is notorious for its failure to appeal to the 
>> masses.

Seems as though he would like to place those of us who reject the
major keys for minor chords, who choose universals for particulars,
who process a sometimes forbidding bodies of work resistant to
sweeping pronouncements and vague generalizations--in a ghetto.
Seems as though in doing so, he's simply calling to the yahoo.

>> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather 
>> than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American 
>> poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is 
>> done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."

Would be interesting to know here how D.G. came to poetry in the
first place. As creatures we have been given much, and when we
come to poetry, authentic poetry, much is demanded because of its
refusal to separate intellect from feeling, or complexity from clarity,
whether it be found in Ronald Johnson, William Bronk or Robert Frost.

Gerald Schwartz





From bobgrumman  Tue Jul 17 21:17:21 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:17:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <8C996CE84F66398-9A4-5758@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com><469D4068.5080202@opus40.org>
	<000d01c7c8cd$d1956bf0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b>
Message-ID: <029501c7c8d9$6639c930$48fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>> "[Poetry] still has to give the reader pleasure; it has to compel rather 
>>> than confuse," Douglas Goetsch said in describing his fellow American 
>>> poets, who often work to create ambiguity. "I hope American poetry is 
>>> done with the cult ? It may be a mystery, but not a puzzle."

Sounds like Goetsch never experienced the triumph of solving a puzzle.  Not 
that any good poem should only give an engagent a chance at that, and not 
that every good poem needs to, but calling for the elimination of poems that 
do strikes me like calling for the elimination metaphor.

But, yes, yawn.

--Bob





From Rsgwynn1  Tue Jul 17 20:24:29 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:24:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
Message-ID: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:16:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Sounds like Goetsch never experienced the triumph of solving a puzzle.  Not 
> 
> that any good poem should only give an engagent a chance at that, and not 
> that every good poem needs to, but calling for the elimination of poems that 
> 
> do strikes me like calling for the elimination metaphor.
> 
> But, yes, yawn.
> 
> --Bob
> 
Most puzzles have solutions, which reward the solver.  Some poems don't, 
which is the problem here.  There's no joy in being endlessly frustrated.   
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From halvard  Tue Jul 17 23:12:33 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:12:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>

But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
as something requiring a solution.

Hal

"I can't understand it. I can't even understand
  the people who can understand it."
                    --Queen Juliana of the Netherlands

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 17, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Most puzzles have solutions, which reward the solver.  Some poems  
> don't, which is the problem here.  There's no joy in being  
> endlessly frustrated.
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From chris.lott  Tue Jul 17 23:48:22 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:48:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
> as something requiring a solution.

Seems to me it's just another way of saying that there are poems out
there that don't provide any satisfaction or happiness or emotional
return or whatever you want to insert at the end of that sentence. You
can turn every one of them around on its ear and claim that's not what
poetry is about, but obviously to some readers each is and those
readers find what they are looking for in some poems and not in
others.

Obviously, some poems do reward searching for solutions or R.S. would
never be happy. If it isn't wrong to derive some satisfaction that way
it is just as right to notice that some poems don't work by that
criterion. Even Hal, I imagine, finds some poems less than satisfying
(or whatever adjective you want to use, just to presumptively avoid
that quibble). And assuming that you do (otherwise why not publish
them all?) is there any productivity to just reversing your
observation and saying "perhaps the problem is in looking for [insert
your adjective here]"?

In other words, I don't think looking for a way to solve a poem is
necessarily wrong... it just isn't always right.

c



From bobgrumman  Wed Jul 18 07:59:07 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:59:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
  as something requiring a solution.


  Hal

  As opposed to what?  Looking at it and going, "Goo Goo?"  Any artwork HAS to contain some meaning that an engagent needs to extract to enjoy.  It can be any kind of meaning, not just a scientific meaning. If you want to use some other word than "solve" to call the act of extracting meaning from a poem, fine--but it's still a form of solving. 

  As for a poem being in part or wholly a puzzle, I don't follow Sam's point.  To me, he's just saying that the device of puzzle in a poem, if misused, is a bad thing.  Of course.  So is metaphor or any other device.  
   
  --Bob G.
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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 09:21:38 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:21:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
	<002a01c7c933$0e3e0890$aafad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <7104BE98-2E23-4EC5-983E-E68F429ADAFB@earthlink.net>

I don't think that meaning is something to be extracted from
a poem, as though pulling a tooth. It seems to me that its more
like a collaboration between poet, reader, context, etc. Even
then, it's more variable than fixed.

Hal

"A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and
   to whom nothing must be given."
                      --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 18, 2007, at 6:59 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
>
> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
> as something requiring a solution.
>
> Hal
>
> As opposed to what?  Looking at it and going, "Goo Goo?"  Any  
> artwork HAS to contain some meaning that an engagent needs to  
> extract to enjoy.  It can be any kind of meaning, not just a  
> scientific meaning. If you want to use some other word than "solve"  
> to call the act of extracting meaning from a poem, fine--but it's  
> still a form of solving.
>
> As for a poem being in part or wholly a puzzle, I don't follow  
> Sam's point.  To me, he's just saying that the device of puzzle in  
> a poem, if misused, is a bad thing.  Of course.  So is metaphor or  
> any other device.
>
> --Bob G.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 10:02:21 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:02:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c45.1a314fd9.33ceb7bd@cs.com>
	<BA9C490F-5CDB-49C4-8F11-5938F4697F8D@earthlink.net>
	<9b1b9dab0707172048y5659dcd8pb6aeda759e28d1c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B211DDD6-7ABF-4671-98E2-86D6AB31A258@earthlink.net>

I don't think looking for solutions is wrong, Chris, just
that they can be frustrating. And frustration's not necessarily
a bad thing either. I enjoy doing crossword puzzles and
sudoku, and find them frustrating (and don't always find
my way through or out of them). On the other hand,
not finishing a puzzle of some sort (not solving it so to
say) has never bothered me much. I also don't mind
journeys that end up somewhere other than the place I
started out for.

So, in short, I agree with you.

Hal

"Open the mirage that calls you."
		--Philip Lamantia

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:48 PM, Chris Lott wrote:

> On 7/17/07, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> But the frustration resides in viewing the poem
>> as something requiring a solution.
>
> Seems to me it's just another way of saying that there are poems out
> there that don't provide any satisfaction or happiness or emotional
> return or whatever you want to insert at the end of that sentence. You
> can turn every one of them around on its ear and claim that's not what
> poetry is about, but obviously to some readers each is and those
> readers find what they are looking for in some poems and not in
> others.
>
> Obviously, some poems do reward searching for solutions or R.S. would
> never be happy. If it isn't wrong to derive some satisfaction that way
> it is just as right to notice that some poems don't work by that
> criterion. Even Hal, I imagine, finds some poems less than satisfying
> (or whatever adjective you want to use, just to presumptively avoid
> that quibble). And assuming that you do (otherwise why not publish
> them all?) is there any productivity to just reversing your
> observation and saying "perhaps the problem is in looking for [insert
> your adjective here]"?
>
> In other words, I don't think looking for a way to solve a poem is
> necessarily wrong... it just isn't always right.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Wed Jul 18 12:53:14 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:53:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unpacking My Toothbrush
Message-ID: <8AEC28EA-E313-4238-8160-1F81984103DF@earthlink.net>

Sonnet:  Unpacking My Toothbrush

Long an anti-dentite, I?ve searched high and low for post-
consumerist dentistry, coming to believe, after many
years, that such a thing may not indeed be possible, or
even feasible. Traditional relationships leave open few

avenues, aside from this thicket of language, that even
are worth exploring. Digital dentistry seemed, once, to be
promising. ?Open, please. Now rinse.? But the tooth
lodged in my forehead continued to cause problems:

blinding headaches, for example. My parents? first
teaching to me: ?Watch where you?re going.? But then
how I navigate, more than what I create, became more
and more central to my living. Quantity trumps quality.

Even at my age, I have more teeth than I will ever use,
more fat than I shall ever, ever come to chew.


                         (after Kenneth Goldsmith)

[http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2007/07/ 
i_am_unpacking_my_digital_libr.html#more]



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From jforjames  Wed Jul 18 13:29:42 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:29:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <696182.3770.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>

Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
the 'Ars Poetica Library', 
well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis?which is somewhat along the same lines...

http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm


1) Please list 5-10 books that have been most ?essential? to you, as a poet.
2) Please write some comments about your list. You may want to single out specific poems or passages from the books, discuss how you made your decisions or provide thoughts about the importance of these books in your life. Feel free to write as much as you would like.
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From r_loden  Wed Jul 18 14:51:21 2007
From: r_loden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:51:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Announcing Jacket 33 - July 2007"
Message-ID: <004101c7c96c$a2d0c3b0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>


"Announcing Jacket 33 - July 2007"

Guest editor: Pam Brown 

http://jacketmagazine.com/


========== Feature ==========

Gordon Ball: Unknown Collaborators: photos from the world of Allen Ginsberg
and his many friends among the Beats, from 1969 to Ginsberg's death in 1997 


========== Feature ==========

Pieces on "Pieces of Air in the Epic", by Brenda Hillman: Barbara Claire
Freeman, Editor.

"The generic convention of the book review is monologic; however nuanced and
subtle, the constraints of the form typically allow the inclusion of only
one perspective. This collection of short texts on the poems in Brenda
Hillman's Pieces of Air in the Epic intends first, to present a kind of
collective 'book review,' that is, a form of writing about poems that
demands a plurality of individual voices; and second, to provide a forum in
which poets respond to and explore a particular poem." - B.C.F.

Introduction, by Barbara Claire Freeman
Marjorie Welish
Graham Foust
Evie Shockley
C.D. Wright
Forrest Gander
Carol Snow
Robert Hass
Michael Davidson
Claudia Keelan
Robert Kaufman
Norma Cole
Marjorie Perloff
Geoffrey G. O'Brien
Juliana Spahr
Calvin Bedient
Reginald Shepherd
Cole Swensen
Elizabeth Robinson
Nathaniel Tarn
Bin Ramke
Donald Revell
Patricia Dienstfrey
Michael Palmer

Brenda Hillman was born in Tucson, Arizona in 1951. After receiving her B.A.
at Pomona College, she attended the University of Iowa, where she received
her M.F.A. in 1976.She has published seven collections of poetry: White
Dress (1985), Fortress (1989), Death Tractates (1992), Bright Existence
(1993), Loose Sugar (1997) and Cascadia (2001), Pieces of Air in the Epic
(2005); all published by Wesleyan University Press. She resides in the San
Francisco Bay Area; she is married and has a daughter.


========== Reviews ==========

Adam Aitken: "The Accidental Cage" by Michelle Cahill 

Stan Apps: "Folly", by Nada Gordon. 

Stan Apps: "My Angie Dickinson", by Michael Magee 

Cynthia Arrieu-King: "The Man Suit" by Zachary Schomburg 

Bridget Brooklyn: "Passion", by Brane Mozetic, translated by Tamara Soban 

Andrew J. Browne: "Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing after
the New York School", edited by Daniel Kane. 

Stephen Cope: "City Eclogue" by Ed Roberson 

Penelope Cray: "The Wanton Sublime:A Florilegium of Whethers and Wonders" by
Anna Rabinowitz 

Mark Dickinson: "Leaves of Field": with "Open Woods" and "Moving Woods".by
Peter Larkin 

Patrick James Dunagan: "Remembering Joel Oppenheimer" by Robert Bertholf 

Martin Duwell: "Sugar Hits" by Philip Hammial 

Michael Farrell: "Phosphorescence" by Graeme Miles 

Cliff Fell: Eliot Weinberger, "What happened here" (second edition) and
"Muhammad", both published by Verso, 2006. 

Norbert Francis: Tosa Motokiyu (edited by Kent Johnson and Javier Alvarez).
"Also, With My Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords: Araki Yasusada's
Letters in English" 

Noah Eli Gordon and Erik Anderson: Conversational Noise: Some Talk on "Some
Notes on My Programming", by Anselm Berrigan 

Anne Heide: "hidde violeth i dde violet", by Kathleen Fraser 

Cole Heinowitz: "Exchanges of Earth and Sky", by Jack Collom 

Tom Hibbard: "Somebody Blew Up America and Other Poems", Amiri Baraka 

Ben Hickman: "Remnants of Hannah" by Dara Wier 

Carlos Hiraldo: "Unprotected Texts: Selected Poems, 1978-2006" by Thomas
Beckett 

Craig Johnson: "Poem for the End of Time and Other Poems" by Noelle Kocot 

Paul Kahn: "I Was Blown Back", by Norman Fischer 

Carl Kelleher: "Shake" by Joshua Beckman 

Jake Kennedy: "The Men" by Lisa Robertson 

Marc Kipniss: "The Bird Hoverer", by Aaron Belz 

Louise Landes Levi: "Sunswumthru a Building", by Bob Arnold 

Michelle Mahoney: "The Pajamaist", by Matthew Zapruder 

Jill M. Neziri: "Forth a Raven", by Christina Davis 

Michael Quattrone: "Overnight", by Paul Violi 

Dr Mark Seton: "The Kamikaze Mind", by Richard James Allen 

Rob Stanton: "A panic that can still come upon me" by Peter Gizzi 

Paul Stephens: "The External Combustion Engine" by Michael Ives 

James Stuart: "From Now" by Johanna Drucker 

Ezra Tessler: "The Stamp of Class: Reflections on Poetry and Social Class"
by Gary Lenhart 

Dan Thomas-Glass: "Girly Man" and "World on Fire", both by Charles Bernstein


Marjorie Welish: "The Totality for Kids", by Joshua Clover 
Interviews 


========== Interviews ==========

Kathleen Fraser in conversation with Sarah Rosenthal, 2007:
"SR: Silence has been a central trope in your writing since early on. It
carries a range of meanings, from erasure to grief and loss to the
spaciousness of an open field. Perhaps we could trace some of the ways in
which silence has come up in your work over time." 

George Bowering in conversation with Rachel Loden: Like a Radio in the Dark:
An Email Interview, 2007

Alison Knowles in conversation with Elizabeth-Jane Burnett, September 2006.
Alison Knowles is a visual artist known for her soundworks, installations,
performances, publications and association with Fluxus, the experimental
avant-garde group formally founded in 1962. 

Eleni Sikelianos, author of The California Poem, in conversation with Jesse
Morse 

Catherine Wagner in conversation with Nathan Smith, 13 April 2007 


========== Articles ==========

James Wallenstein: Ninnies and the Critics: "A Nest of Ninnies" by John
Ashbery and James Schuyler 

Geoffrey Cruickshank- Hagenbuckle with Alexander Nouvel: ZAP! (Zukofsky,
Apollinaire, and the X Men) 

Vernon Frazer and Kirpal Gordon:
Who We Are Now:
A Retrospective of Michael Rothenberg
(60 pages) 

Aram Saroyan: Contretemps: A Minimalist Parable 


========== Feature: Humor in Poetry ==========

The Dangerfield Conundrum: A Roundtable on Humor in Poetry - 80 pages of
discussion edited from 200 pages of postings to the HumPo List by Rachel
Loden and K. Silem Mohammad, and featuring the voices of:

George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Katie Degentesh
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan 

The Dangerfield Files, edited by Rachel Loden: poems from the HumPo List: 

Rachel Loden: Introduction
George Bowering
Maxine Chernoff
Gabriel Gudding
Rachel Loden
Ange Mlinko
K. Silem Mohammad
D. A. Powell
Ron Silliman
Gary Sullivan


========== Feature ==========

Mark Weiss: Jos? Mart?: "Jos? Juli?n Mart? y P?rez (1853-1895) may not be
unique as a political poet-martyr (one thinks of Byron and Lorca), but he
must have been one of the most politically involved. The very model of the
committed artist, he was 42 when he died in one of the first engagements of
the second Cuban War of Independence, of which he had been chief
propagandist and one of the principal planners. He had spent his entire
adult life in exile, chiefly in Mexico City and New York." 


========== Poems ==========

Mary Jo Bang: Three poems 

Ken Bolton: Three poems: An Australian Suburban Garden; EUROPE; For various
movie directors 

Michelle Cahill: Three poems: The Accidental Cage; Manhattan; Poppies 

Justin Clemens: "The Mundiad", Book IV 

Kelvin Corcoran: Three poems from 'Ulysses in the Car' 

Alfred Corn: Two poems: Page and Cave; Trunk Show 

Wystan Curnow: poem: Max 

Norman Fischer: Formal Terms 

Robert Gibbons: Two poems: That Internal World; At the End of Writing 

Anna Gibbs: Culpable Blindness 

John Hennessy: Coney Island Pilgrims 

Katia Kapovich: Two poems: To Whom It May Concern; The Seventh String 

Burt Kimmelman: Two poems: House, Normandy; Crumbs upon the Table 

Rachel Loden: Three poems: Props to the Twentieth Century; Dick of the Dead;
The Pure of Heart, Those Murderers 

Rupert Loydell: Two poems: The Secret Life of Mist; The Secret Life of Light


Norman MacAfee: I Am Astro Place 

Mark Mordue: Things That Year 

John Muckle: Three Poems: Elizabeth Bishop; Nothing Wrong; Cyclomotors 

Marc Nasdor: Five poems 

Simon Robb: Excerpt from "Jane Fonda's Temple of Literature" 

Sam Sampson: Three poems: The Ship Beautiful; Reel; Diagram 

Don Share: On being philosophical 

Jaya Savige: Two poems 

Mark Schafer translates five poems by David Huerta 

Jeffrey Side: Extracts from "Carrier of the Seed" 

Stephen Sturgeon: Two poems: Friday; Fired 

Paul Violi: Finish These Sentences 


========== The next issue of Jacket 
========== is due in October. 

>From now until the Northern Harvest Moon on 26 September the Jacket editors
preserve their creative energies by entering a profound state of marsupial
hibernation. Please do not disturb them! 

========== Jacket magazine: 
========== Editor: John Tranter 
========== Associate Editor: Pam Brown





From amyhappens  Wed Jul 18 16:13:38 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Next Friday in Brooklyn  --->
In-Reply-To: <20070716160821.AMU51025@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <885373.93188.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

MiPOesias presents
[http://www.mipoesias.com] 
  
     ~~   RICHARD PEABODY ~ NICOLE STEINBERG ~ CATE PEEBLES  ~~

Friday, July 27, 2007 @ 7:00 PM

~~~

Richard Peabody, a prolific poet, fiction writer and editor, is an experienced teacher and important activist in the Washington , D.C. community of letters. He is the founder and co-editor of Gargoyle magazine and editor (or co-editor) of fourteen anthologies including Mondo Barbie, Mondo Elvis, Conversations with Gore Vidal, A Different Beat: Writings by Women of the Beat Generation, Alice Redux, Sex & Chocolate, Grace and Gravity: Fiction by Washington Area Women and Enhanced Gravity: More Fiction by Washington Area Women. He is the author of the novella Sugar Mountain, two short story collections, and six poetry collections. He is currently working on Electric Grace: Still More Fiction by Washington Area Women (forthcoming 2007). Peabody teaches at The Writer's Center and at Johns Hopkins University, where he has been presented the Faculty Award for Distinguished Professional Achievement. He lives and works in the Washington, D.C. area. You can find out more at:
 www.wikipedia.org and www.gargoylemagazine.com.
   
   
  
Nicole Steinberg is the Co-Editor of LIT and Associate Editor of BOMB Magazine. Her poetry has appeared or is forthcoming in Gulf Coast, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel?Second Floor, PMS, Lumina, and Half Drunk Muse, and she writes for music webzine Axis of Live. She's the founder, curator and host of EARSHOT, a Brooklyn-based reading series dedicated to the work and presence of emerging writers in the New York City area.  She lives in Queens, New York.


Cate Peebles was born in Pittsburgh and currently lives in Brooklyn. She is a graduate of Reed College and is currently enrolled in the MFA program at the New School. She works as an editorial assistant on an oral biography of George Plimpton that will be published by Random House in 2008.
  ~~~~~~~~

STAIN BAR
766 Grand Street Brooklyn , NY 11211
(L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 
718/387-7840
http://www.stainbar.com/

~~~~~~~~


Hope you'll stop by!
Amy King
MiPO Host
http://www.mipoesias.com 


**please forward**
**apologies for cross-posting**
       wrote:","On 6/29/07, \u003cb class\u003dgmail_sendername\>Janet Holmes\u003c/b\> <holmes.janet at gmail.com> wrote:","googlegroups.com",,,"\u003cpussipo.googlegroups.com\>","",0,"pussipo at googlegroups.com","\u003c38a93cff0706291955w4556859s521d4bb960da3634 at mail.gmail.com\>",0,,0,"In reply to \"Tonight in Brooklyn\"",0] ); D(["mb","Say hi to Ethan for me!",1] );  //-->     
   

       
---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
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From amyhappens  Wed Jul 18 16:26:10 2007
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MiPO Films
In-Reply-To: <885373.93188.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <881984.59558.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

 
  http://mipovideo.blogspot.com/2007/07/stacy-szymaszek-and-ethan-paquin.html#links
   
   
  Description: Stacy Szymaszek and Ethan Paquin MiPOesias Reading @ Stain Bar Williamsburg, Brooklyn June 28, 2007 ETHAN PAQUIN is author of My Thieves (Salt, 2007), The Violence (Ahsahta Press, 2005), Accumulus (Salt, 2003) and The Makeshift (UK: Stride, 2002). He lives and teaches in Buffalo, NY, and returns to seacoast New Hampshire every summer. 

http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/paquin_ethan.html

Stacy Szymaszek is the author of Emptied of All Ships (Litmus Press, 2005) as well as several chapbooks. After working at Woodland Pattern Book Center in Milwaukee, WI for many years she moved to New York to be the Program Coordinator at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. This year she is also the Monday Night Reading curator. She edited Gam: A Survey of Great Lakes Writing which lived for 4 issues, and now works as co-editor or contributing editor on various projects including Instance Press and Fascicle. Her current work in process is called "hyper glossia," parts of which can be found on the internet, in a Belladonna* chap book and forthcoming from Hot Whiskey Press. 

http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/szymaszek_stacey.html
   
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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From halvard  Wed Jul 18 18:29:39 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:29:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] High praise for David Shapiro
Message-ID: <105595FE-1FA0-41A8-BE3F-81BE38595108@earthlink.net>

High praise indeed for David Shapiro:

http://www.forward.com/articles/11169/


Hal

"I loathe writing. On the other hand I'm a great
  believer in money. Often when I couldn't pay the
  grocery bill, Providence intervened and I don't
  mean my natal city, Providence, which can be
  counted on for nothing."
		--S. J. Perelman

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


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From editor  Wed Jul 18 20:10:57 2007
From: editor (David Baratier)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:10:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goetsch's greed
In-Reply-To: <200707181600.l6IG05KQ011272@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <314123.11256.qm@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

cool, we published Doug's first collection


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From Opus40-01  Wed Jul 18 20:58:00 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:58:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469EB718.3060809@opus40.org>

I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on it. 
I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the 
Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived 
somewhere accessible?

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called 
> 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
> the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is 
> somewhat along the same lines...
>
> http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>
> 1) Please list 5-10 books that have been most ?essential? to you, as a 
> poet.
> 2) Please write some comments about your list. You may want to single 
> out specific poems or passages from the books, discuss how you made 
> your decisions or provide thoughts about the importance of these books 
> in your life. Feel free to write as much as you would like.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Wed Jul 18 21:01:27 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:01:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others Yannis Ritsos
In-Reply-To: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C997785C84D394-3E4-C1B1@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469EB7E7.9080405@opus40.org>

This gem comes from the website Jim just referenced, about the Peter 
Davis book.

?The Third One?:

               The three of them sat before the window looking at the sea.
               One talked about the sea. The second listened. The third
               Neither spoke nor listened; he was deep in the sea; he 
floated.
               Behind the windowpanes, his movements were slow, clear
               In the thin pale blue. He was exploring a sunken ship.
               He rang the dead bell for the watch; fine bubbles
               Rose bursting with a soft sound?suddenly,
               ?Did he drown?? asked one; the other said, ?He drowned.? 
The third one
               looked back at them helpless from the bottom of the sea, the
               way one looks at drowned people.






From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 09:40:44 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:40:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>

 
Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point this  week 
I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that  came in after the 
first version was posted on this list. I put it the first  version out on my 
blog...but maybe when it's more filled out (if  ever) we can find a better home 
for it, perhaps on Anny's  website.
 
See March 28 post...  
_http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.ht
ml_ 
(http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.html) 

 
Finnegan
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

I was  just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on it. 
I've  been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the 
Modern  Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived 
somewhere  accessible?

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Remember a few month's ago  when we had that thread going called 
> 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then  became
> the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> well I just ran across this  book edited by Peter Davis which is 
> somewhat along the same  lines...
>
>  http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm


 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 10:22:08 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:22:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469F7390.9080301@opus40.org>

Anny's website is one of the treasures of the Internet (as is your 
list). The only trouble with it -- if you're reading, Anny -- is that 
it's hard to find some things. Like the page of definitions of poetry. 
I'd suggest making another section for things like that list, and this 
list, and a clearer signpost to it on the main page.

Also reading "The Romantic Imagination" by CM Bowra. As you know, I tend 
to like older critics, even forgotten ones. I like to know what people 
were thinking. If I want to know what people are thinking today, I 
alread have the world's foremost authority...myself!

If you decide to flesh out the list and need help, I'll volunteer.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point this 
> week I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that came in 
> after the first version was posted on this list. I put it the first 
> version out on my blog...but maybe when it's more filled out (if 
> ever) we can find a better home for it, perhaps on Anny's website.
>  
> See March 28 post...
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.html
>  
> Finnegan
>  
>  
>  
> In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:
>
>     I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note
>     on it.
>     I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the
>     Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived
>     somewhere accessible?
>
>     jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>     > Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called
>     > 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
>     > the 'Ars Poetica Library',
>     > well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is
>     > somewhat along the same lines...
>     >
>     > http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>  
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 11:13:18 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:13:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <8C9982E78C7A69B-920-137EA@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/1135/Gioias-Nightmare

Gioia's Nightmare
July 19, 2007, 8:48 am 
Posted by Robert P. Imbelli 

In today's Wall Street Journal, Dana Gioia reveals his nocturnal panic attack:


I have a recurring nightmare. I am in Rome visiting the Sistine Chapel. I look up at Michelangelo's incomparable fresco of the "Creation of Man." I see God stretching out his arm to touch the reclining Adam's finger. And then I notice in the other hand Adam is holding a Diet Pepsi.


He worries about a culture that increasing wants to be entertained, rather than challenged in a way that only art can challenge. (The late Neil Postman warned about "amusing ourselves to death.")Yet Gioia suggests that culpability is not a one-sided affair:


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 11:30:20 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:30:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing your
	edge...
Message-ID: <469F838C.5030002@opus40.org>

Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From AlMaginnes  Thu Jul 19 12:24:13 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:24:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <c2e.188905ad.33d0ea2d@aol.com>

Awful high falutin for the guy who gave the world that giant Kool Aid  
pitcher crashing through walls.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 12:44:03 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>

A pretty impressive list.

2 quibbles, for what they're worth.

On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of  
type.  An actual list would be much more readable.

Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some  
annotation.  Even some bare description would be nice, if not  
evaluative comments or some categorization.

Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's  
*Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.  I would also like to  
recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a  
Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 19, 2007, at 9:40 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Tad,I don't remember seeing that one on the list. At some point  
> this week I'll repost the list with many updates & suggestions that  
> came in after the first version was posted on this list. I put it  
> the first version out on my blog...but maybe when it's more filled  
> out (if ever) we can find a better home for it, perhaps on Anny's  
> website.
>
> See March 28 post...
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in- 
> progress.html
>
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/18/2007 8:58:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:
> I was just thinking about that thread, and about to write a note on  
> it.
> I've been reading and enjoying William H. Pritchard's Lives of the
> Modern Poets, which I'm not sure we mentioned. Is our list archived
> somewhere accessible?
>
> jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> > Remember a few month's ago when we had that thread going called
> > 'Poet's Ideal Library' and then became
> > the 'Ars Poetica Library',
> > well I just ran across this book edited by Peter Davis which is
> > somewhat along the same lines...
> >
> > http://bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm
>
>
>
>
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 12:58:21 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:58:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
Message-ID: <75704119-8165-4D88-80AC-A94FA244B70A@ripon.edu>

I'm traveling & so perhaps this has been noted already, but in case  
not, I wanted to acknowledge the recent untimely death of Sekou  
Sundiata.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/vale-inspiring- 
poetactivist/2007/07/19/1184559956599.html




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From AlMaginnes  Thu Jul 19 13:07:18 2007
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:07:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
Message-ID: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>

Damn. I wasn't a fan of his poetry but that's a freaking shame. 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 13:32:57 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:32:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>

You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out?in html?& get someone
to host it on a website.

I'd like to add more description about each book...but that?will have to be phase two. 
In?phase one I'm?just?identifying the books as?
poetry-related essays, literary criticism, manuals/guidebooks,?aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. Short & sweet?categorizations?like that.?But?even that's not as easy it seems:?
(1) Because I haven't read?all of these books (which I'm sure is no surprise because it would
be nigh impossible for anyone?except some super-scholar), and (2) some of them thwart
my?simplistic tags or?the book contains a mixed bag of one or more categories. 

FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel?spreadsheet,?and if anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf


A pretty impressive list.



2 quibbles, for what they're worth.??




On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of type.? An actual list would be much more readable.??




Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some annotation.? Even some bare description would be nice, if not evaluative comments or some categorization.??




Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.? I would also like to recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.??








________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Edward.Byrne  Thu Jul 19 13:37:36 2007
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:37:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] VPR Blog
Message-ID: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>

Just an update about the Valparaiso Poetry Review editor's blog, "One
Poet's Notes," complementing work in VPR and recognizing notable
recent publications of poetry: I want to invite all to visit the blog
and encourage you to pass along information about the blog's contents
to any individuals or lists you think might be interested.

Poets whose works are considered and currently on the main page
include John Ashbery, Walt McDonald, Steve Gehrke, Rick Mulkey, Walt
Whitman, John Ruff, David Baker, Mary Biddinger, Charles Wright,
Philip White, Kimberly Blaeser, Theodore Roethke, Jonathan Holden,
Larry Levis, Ellen Bryant Voight, Frannie Lindsay, William Meredith,
Sherod Santos. H. Palmer Hall, Elizabeth Bishop, David Graham, Peter
Pereira, Robert Penn Warren, Virgil Suarez, and Maxin Kumin. As well,
there are commentaries about the closing of the Gotham Book Mart, the
end of Parnassus: Poetry in Review, ekphrastic poetry, and literary
journals on database.

The URL for the blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Thanks,

Ed

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------





From skip  Thu Jul 19 13:40:07 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:40:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <469F838C.5030002@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late years.
Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.




-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:30 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
youredge...

Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 13:42:16 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:42:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sekou Sundiata
In-Reply-To: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>
References: <c4b.18a1e520.33d0f446@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C99843484A27D5-504-284@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4561097

Here's an interview with Terry Gross on NPR from a few years back. As I recall the interview, he recounts his health troubles and a bad car wreck he had around the same time.



I thought he was one of the best of the performance poetry scene, which preceded the advent of slam performance poetry.


________________________________________________________________________
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 14:19:45 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:19:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get someone
>  to host it on a website.

In the meantime I posted a comment that has the whole list in a more
readable format...

c



From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 19 15:40:08 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:40:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
References: <8C9982E78C7A69B-920-137EA@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <005101c7ca3c$9f0a0130$bcfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  Gioia's Nightmare
  July 19, 2007, 8:48 am 
  Posted by Robert P. Imbelli 
  In today's Wall Street Journal, Dana Gioia reveals his nocturnal panic attack:

  I have a recurring nightmare. I am in Rome visiting the Sistine Chapel. I look up at Michelangelo's incomparable fresco of the "Creation of Man." I see God stretching out his arm to touch the reclining Adam's finger. And then I notice in the other hand Adam is holding a Diet Pepsi.

  Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to what he already had?

  --Bob
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From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 15:26:59 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:26:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>


Thanks...the longest comment I've had.



Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see how those can be deleted on Blogger.

Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said there are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in. But I can see them in my browser.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf



On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:?
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get someone?
> to host it on a website.?
?
In the meantime I posted a comment that has the whole list in a more?
readable format...?
?
c?
_______________________________________________?
New-Poetry mailing list?
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu?
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?


________________________________________________________________________
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 15:32:43 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:32:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks...the longest comment I've had.
>
> Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see how
> those can be deleted on Blogger.
> Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said there
> are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in. But
> I can see them in my browser.

Strange. Once I am logged into Blogger and viewing one of my blogs, if
I view the comments page I see a little trash icon right next to the
date below each icon. This is the same page that others would use to
view or add comments. You should also see a blue bar at the very top
of the browser window, another indication you are logged in.

c
--
Chris Lott



From LauraHeidy  Thu Jul 19 15:38:59 2007
From: LauraHeidy (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:38:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jforjames at aol.com writes:

Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see  how 
those can be deleted on Blogger.



 
Eventually I had to use the comment enabler.  Nothing gets posted  unless I 
say it gets posted.  It works out pretty well, actually.   When someone leaves 
a comment I get an immediate email.  Once I decide the  comment is ok I just 
click the little icon on the email that says "publish this  comment", sign in 
to blogger and TA!DA! the comment gets published. Or I  can delete it before it 
hits the blog.  
 
 
The little garbage icon doesn't always work for me, either.  Sometimes  I see 
it, sometimes I don't.  I can't figure a rhyme or reason to it,  either.  The 
email notification before publication works well.
 
Lo



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From screwzbaran  Thu Jul 19 15:42:50 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:42:50 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>

I have the same issue!

On 7/19/07, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/19/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks...the longest comment I've had.
> >
> > Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't see
> how
> > those can be deleted on Blogger.
> > Anyone have a suggestion about how to do that? The help section said
> there
> > are supposed be little trach can icons near the comments when I sign in.
> But
> > I can see them in my browser.
>
> Strange. Once I am logged into Blogger and viewing one of my blogs, if
> I view the comments page I see a little trash icon right next to the
> date below each icon. This is the same page that others would use to
> view or add comments. You should also see a blue bar at the very top
> of the browser window, another indication you are logged in.
>
> c
> --
> Chris Lott
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 15:45:33 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:45:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>
	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191245x105ab69eua2e582daabd70fd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, Suzanne Baran <screwzbaran at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have the same issue!

Often the sequence is: see a comment you want to delete, log in, go
back to the page to delete. That third step can cause the problem, so
be sure to force a refresh of the page (using Shift and hitting the
refresh icon or whatever combination your browser needs) so that it
reads the "cookies" and knows you are logged in.

Other than that, I have no idea except for seeing people who think
they are logged in when they are not (I work with a lot of faculty and
students using blogs), so be sure you can access your dashboard or see
that blue bar with the confirmation of your logged in identity.

c



From jforjames  Thu Jul 19 15:50:27 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:50:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>	<9b1b9dab0707191119q294059a7ubd5b5bff776355a3@mail.gmail.com>	<8C99851E953D13E-1888-4C62@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com>	<9b1b9dab0707191232x44d296d0q1fa1c78c83772358@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d5ffa0b0707191242y5d3c21dct6239da1e773c2f44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C998553070FFD1-200-51CA@webmail-da18.sysops.aol.com>


I just logged in with another browser (Firefox) and voila the little trash cans were right there.
So it might be an?Explorer issue that makes them invisible to me in that browser. Sorry for blogger shop talk.
Finnegan
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:08:59 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:08:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cd8.14886195.33d0c3dc@aol.com>	<F33AA35A-B1E3-49BD-89DB-FCCDA648FC28@ripon.edu>
	<8C99841FAFE63E7-504-1E5@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <469FD2EB.2010304@opus40.org>

I'll host if no one else is available.

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out in html & get 
> someone
> to host it on a website.
>
> I'd like to add more description about each book...but that will have 
> to be phase two.
> In phase one I'm just identifying the books as 
> poetry-related essays, literary criticism, 
> manuals/guidebooks, aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. 
> Short & sweet categorizations like that. But even that's not as easy 
> it seems: 
> (1) Because I haven't read all of these books (which I'm sure is no 
> surprise because it would
> be nigh impossible for anyone except some super-scholar), and (2) some 
> of them thwart
> my simplistic tags or the book contains a mixed bag of one or more 
> categories.
>
> FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel spreadsheet, and if 
> anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
> A pretty impressive list.
>
> 2 quibbles, for what they're worth.  
>
> On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of 
> type.  An actual list would be much more readable.  
>
> Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some 
> annotation.  Even some bare description would be nice, if not 
> evaluative comments or some categorization.  
>
> Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's 
> *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.  I would also like to 
> recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a 
> Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:16:16 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:16:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] VPR Blog
In-Reply-To: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
References: <1184866656-29703.00025.00213-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <469FD4A0.8020704@opus40.org>

Ed -- have put your blog on my Bookmarks, and read the Ashbery entry 
with great pleasure.

I also very much like the look of your blog. I have Blogger too 
(http://opusforty.blogspot.com/) and I can't get to cover the whole page 
like yours does. I get this little column down the center. What's the 
secret?

Tad Richards

Edward Byrne wrote:
> Just an update about the Valparaiso Poetry Review editor's blog, "One
> Poet's Notes," complementing work in VPR and recognizing notable
> recent publications of poetry: I want to invite all to visit the blog
> and encourage you to pass along information about the blog's contents
> to any individuals or lists you think might be interested.
>
> Poets whose works are considered and currently on the main page
> include John Ashbery, Walt McDonald, Steve Gehrke, Rick Mulkey, Walt
> Whitman, John Ruff, David Baker, Mary Biddinger, Charles Wright,
> Philip White, Kimberly Blaeser, Theodore Roethke, Jonathan Holden,
> Larry Levis, Ellen Bryant Voight, Frannie Lindsay, William Meredith,
> Sherod Santos. H. Palmer Hall, Elizabeth Bishop, David Graham, Peter
> Pereira, Robert Penn Warren, Virgil Suarez, and Maxin Kumin. As well,
> there are commentaries about the closing of the Gotham Book Mart, the
> end of Parnassus: Poetry in Review, ekphrastic poetry, and literary
> journals on database.
>
> The URL for the blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Edward Byrne
> Department of English
> 322 Huegli Hall
> Valparaiso University
> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
> Blog: 
> http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
> VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
> Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:16:58 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:16:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>

Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.

Skip Fox wrote:
> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late years.
> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:30 AM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
> youredge...
>
> Hardy wrote "During Wind and Rain" in his mid-seventies.
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:26:08 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:26:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>
References: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>

No one ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)

LauraHeidy at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/19/2007 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jforjames at aol.com writes:
>
>     Speaking of comments, I get spam comments ocassionally and I don't
>     see how those can be deleted on Blogger.
>
>  
> Eventually I had to use the comment enabler.  Nothing gets posted 
> unless I say it gets posted.  It works out pretty well, actually.  
> When someone leaves a comment I get an immediate email.  Once I decide 
> the comment is ok I just click the little icon on the email that says 
> "publish this comment", sign in to blogger and TA!DA! the comment gets 
> published. Or I can delete it before it hits the blog. 
>  
>  
> The little garbage icon doesn't always work for me, either.  Sometimes 
> I see it, sometimes I don't.  I can't figure a rhyme or reason to it, 
> either.  The email notification before publication works well.
>  
> Lo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com 
> <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 17:29:23 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:29:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>
References: <c9a.1487b0fe.33d117d3@aol.com> <469FD6F0.3090009@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191429q74545k76e69f63669c2a5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
> No one ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)

Well, I do read it :)

c



From grahamd  Thu Jul 19 17:40:46 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:40:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>

Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?

I wonder if we won't start seeing more & more good geriatric poetry,  
what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the  
wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.

Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And  
in the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly,  
Simpson, Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively  
publishing, even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the  
ballpark much these days.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 19, 2007, at 5:16 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his  
>> late years.
>> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes.  
>> Pollenbearers.
>>

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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 19 17:44:36 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:44:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>

I hear some artists stay vital well into their *40s*!!

c



From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:48:56 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:48:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>
	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <469FDC48.2060304@opus40.org>

Duhh...

Next time I'll read what I write before I post it.

David Graham wrote:
> Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?  
>
> I wonder if we won't start seeing more & more good geriatric poetry, 
> what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the 
> wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.
>
> Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And in 
> the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly, Simpson, 
> Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively publishing, 
> even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the ballpark much 
> these days. 
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 5:16 PM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
>> Don't forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.
>>
>>
>> Skip Fox wrote:
>>
>>> And De Kooning painted his lovely Alzheimer's paintings in his late 
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Williams wrote "Desert Music" after a series of strokes. Pollenbearers.
>>>
>>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Thu Jul 19 17:49:15 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:49:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003101c7ca2b$ded42cc0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<469FD4CA.6040007@opus40.org>	<9935A642-2DD4-4812-B5A1-8C2C5991474F@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0707191444m9c7af22t5d3dd4bfef43b78f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469FDC5B.7000600@opus40.org>

I'll let you know.

Chris Lott wrote:
> I hear some artists stay vital well into their *40s*!!
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 19 20:02:33 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:02:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredg...
Message-ID: <ce1.15624313.33d15599@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2007 4:49:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> Duhh...
> 
> Next time I'll read what I write before I post it.
> 
> David Graham wrote:
> >Aren't the paper cutouts Matisse rather than Cezanne?  
> >
> >I wonder if we won't start seeing more &more good geriatric poetry, 
> >what with current trends in longevity.  In the recent past we had the 
> >wonderful example of Stanley Kunitz, still cooking in his 90s.
> >
> >Currently Ruth Stone is going strong at age 92, I think it is.  And in 
> >the age-80 range, we have Ashbery, Levine, Stern, Rich, Bly, Simpson, 
> >Wilbur, Carruth, Kinnell, Hall and others still actively publishing, 
> >even if some are arguably not hitting them out of the ballpark much 
> >these days. 
> >
> >
Robert Conquest was 90 last Sunday, and he is still writing.  Well.   
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:31:25 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:31:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're worried about getting older and losing
	youredge...
Message-ID: <c3b.1706305a.33d15c5d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 5:17:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

Don't  forget Cezanne and his cut paper images.



Was that Matisse? I don't remember seeing Cezanne doing that.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:33:01 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:33:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
Message-ID: <c48.14371334.33d15cbd@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 5:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

No one  ever leaves comments on my blog. (sniff)



That means what you say is perfect, and can bear no correction or  extension.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 20:34:20 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:34:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <d3a.e83062c.33d15d0c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/19/2007 2:38:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for  was not inferior to what 
he already had?
 
--Bob





That's philosophy, Bob, not art.
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 19 21:45:28 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:45:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: If you're worried about getting older and
	losingyouredg...
References: <ce1.15624313.33d15599@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c7ca6f$a8e614e0$bcfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Robert Conquest was 90 last Sunday, and he is still writing.  Well. 

I admire his work--but surely he's been writing at the age of ninety all his life.

--Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 19 22:04:27 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:04:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
Message-ID: <cc3.13d86cff.33d1722b@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2007 7:34:53 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> 
>> >>> Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to 
>>> what he already had?
>>>   
>>>  --Bob
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
If you look real closely at that fresco in the Sistine Chapel, you'll quickly 
see that what Adam had was clearly inferior and needed a little divine spark 
(that's why God has Eve under his arm).  But maybe he'd been on steroids.   
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 22:30:21 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:30:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>

I went to a lovely event last evening. About an hour from here in  Litchfield 
County, at the U-Conn extension campus in Torringtion, Charles  (Charlie) Van 
Doren delivered an informal lecture on Robert Frost. He read 18  poems, 
interspersed with commentary and close reading (finding the 'appall'  among all 
those aspects of white in the poem "Design") or reminiscing  over when he first 
encountered this or that poem, and how it affected him then  and now. 
 
The audience was not primarily students or the usual suspects  at poetry 
readings. They were mostly people from the community, folks from  the surrounding 
towns come out to hear an intelligent man talk about  poetry. 
 
All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed pretty  
silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to engage  
their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.
 
Among the poems he read and talked about was this one....
 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in again,
Or  such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with men.
Then  now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and plowers.
It  must be now, though, in season 
Before trees, seeing the opening,
March  into a shadowy claim.
The trees are all I?m afraid of,
That flowers can?t  bloom in the shade of;
It?s no more men I?m afraid of;
The meadow is done  with the tame.
The place for the moment is ours
For you, oh tumultuous  flowers,
To go to waste and go wild in,
All shapes and colors of  flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 19 22:38:07 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:38:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <cd8.149757f9.33d17a0f@aol.com>

 
missed a line, try this one....
 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in again,
Or  such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with men.
Then  now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and plowers.
It  must be now, though, in season
Before the not mowing brings trees on,  
Before trees, seeing the opening,
March into a shadowy claim.
The  trees are all I?m afraid of,
That flowers can?t bloom in the shade  of;
It?s no more men I?m afraid of;
The meadow is done with the  tame.
The place for the moment is ours
For you, oh tumultuous  flowers,
To go to waste and go wild in,
All shapes and colors of  flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost
 
n a message dated 7/19/2007 10:30:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

 
 
The Last Mowing
 
There?s a place called Faraway Meadow
We never shall mow in  again,
Or such is the talk of the farmhouse:
The meadow is finished with  men.
Then now is the chance for the flowers
That can?t stand mowers and  plowers.
It must be now, though, in season 
Before trees, seeing the  opening,
March into a shadowy claim.
The trees are all I?m afraid  of,
That flowers can?t bloom in the shade of;
It?s no more men I?m  afraid of;
The meadow is done with the tame.
The place for the moment is  ours
For you, oh tumultuous flowers,
To go to waste and go wild  in,
All shapes and colors of flowers,
I needn?t call you by name.
 
--Robert Frost








************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 02:47:55 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:47:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed pretty
> silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to engage
> their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.

I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.

Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 07:48:56 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:48:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Nightmare
References: <d3a.e83062c.33d15d0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006201c7cac3$f9b71ff0$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 7/19/2007 2:38:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
      Did Our Sage explain why what Adam was reaching for was not inferior to what he already had?

      --Bob


  That's philosophy, Bob, not art.
  Finnegan

  Yeah, Jim, but it was a response to Gioia's philosophical  concern about the Pepsi.
  --Bob
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From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 20 07:45:17 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:45:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A0A04D.2060301@opus40.org>

The Woodstock Poetry Festival, which I was on the board of in a minor 
way, only lasted for three years, but in each of its years it filled up 
the town with visitors, and every event was well-attended.

Chris Lott wrote:
> On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>> All the palaver about the loss of the 'audience for poetry' seemed 
>> pretty
>> silly last night. What we need are more poets and teachers willing to 
>> engage
>> their communities with a subject they so dearly & evidently love.
>
> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>
> Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 09:57:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:57:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Chris Lott wrote:

> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.

Certainly not more than once or twice a year.

> Well, maybe Jewel or the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could :)

Serious poetry is not popular, that's a fact.  Unless you want to call pop 
song lyrics and rap serious poetry.  Television devotes 0.001% or its air 
time to it (you think there will ever be an American Idol sort of show set 
up to single out an unknown young poet for stardom?), radio maybe three or 
four times that.  Newspapers rarely mention it.  A few "high-brow" culture 
magazines do discuss it but few give it the space they give movies.

But so what?  Serious mathematics is less popular.

--Bob 





From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul 20 09:24:13 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:24:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <c05.1afbb62e.33d2117d@cs.com>

Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?  Son of the famous Charles 
of tv fame?   
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From JforJames  Fri Jul 20 09:30:30 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:30:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <c7a.183cfc8d.33d212f6@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/20/2007 9:24:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?   Son of the famous Charles 
of tv fame? 
Son of Mark, & subject of Redford's flim Quiz Show 
(_http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/_ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/) )

_http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-van-doren_ 
(http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-van-doren) 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Fri Jul 20 10:01:10 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:01:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

I'm all  for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
medium sized  room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.



Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more  giving
talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps  if
the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for  enough ways 
to 
demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets.  Frost 
is probably not
a tough sell for the general public, but I'd like to bet that one  could fill 
a small room at a local
library or grange hall for a discussion of 'Objectivist Poets', or  something 
along those lines.
The idea might be tos help people learn how to read poetry, to show them  the 
elements they 
need to listen for and to engage them infectiously with what it is  thatt 
might be found there 
and might be useful to them in the lives of their  minds. There might be mroe 
hunger for that
than we think, rather than another Whodat Poet reading from his/her  second 
book of poems.
 
I was sitting next to a woman (in her seventies) who told me she didn't  read
much poetry. But she was there. She was there in part because she was a  
neighbor
of Charles Van Doren. That tells me we should really look for ways to
involve friends and neighbors. Too often these readings and talks are  
sequestered
at some building buried at the heart of a large campus, with little  effort 
to inform or 
encourage community attendence. 
 
Put down that Harry Potter book. Grassroots...yeah.Taking the poetry  to the 
people, baby. 
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul 20 10:03:44 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:03:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <bee.191f6afa.33d21ac0@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/20/2007 8:31:10 AM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> Who is Charlie Van Doren?  The grandson of Mark?  Son of the famous 
>> Charles of tv fame? 
> Son of Mark, &subject of Redford's flim Quiz Show
> 
For some reason, I thought he'd died a few years ago.  Vivienne Nearing's 
obit was in the Times last week.   
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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:19:12 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:19:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>
>
> Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
> talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps if
> the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for enough ways
> to
> demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets. Frost
> is probably not
> a tough sell for the general public,

And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
of the lecturer.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
wasn't looking for in the first place.

I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:22:23 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:22:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
	<008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> But so what?  Serious mathematics is less popular.

Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 11:27:54 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:27:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707200827n251bd2e6u25a7dc7ba69e4d19@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I went to a lovely event last evening. About an hour from here in Litchfield
> County, at the U-Conn extension campus in Torringtion, Charles (Charlie) Van
> Doren delivered an informal lecture on Robert Frost. He read 18 poems,
> interspersed with commentary and close reading (finding the 'appall' among
> all those aspects of white in the poem "Design") or reminiscing over when he
> first encountered this or that poem, and how it affected him then and now.

Let me just be very clear that I am simply musing on the subject. This
event sounds like it was great and were I in a position to attend it,
I would have. I have a tough time imagine anything like it working
*here* but we have a very small population and I am jaded.

If I had the time and connections to organize something like it, I
might even try my hand.  But I've had pretty unsatisfying experiences
producing artistic events in the past, so it's unlikely I'll return
anytime soon. Unless I get a killer idea that's too good to ignore.

c



From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 20 11:36:01 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:36:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A0D661.8070006@opus40.org>

One of the best episodes of series TV I ever saw was the LA Law episode 
on poetry. Did anyone else see it?

The LA Law office takes on the case of a young college professor who has 
wanted to put on a poetry expo, and has gone into partnership with a 
Hollywood-type promoter, and is now suing to get out of the contract and 
get the promoter out of the package, because of the crass and commercial 
things he's doing -- ruining the expo. The show was obviously written by 
people who understood po-biz, and it beautifully skewered all our 
favorite pretensions.

In the end, the young college professor, bless his heart, realizes that 
the huckster-promoter has something to offer, and goes ahead with the 
partnership (he also admits to the unsympathetic bald-headed partner 
that he actually does like Kipling, particularly "Danny Deever"). The 
expo goes off as scheduled, and is a big hit. One of its attractions -- 
and this is my favorite entertainment moment, closely tied only with 
Bert Parks singing "Maggie's Farm" in "The Freshman" -- is Mamie Van 
Doren reciting "Howl."

The young professor, flushed with success, is a changed man, and is 
already planning the publicity campaign for the big Robert Lowell expo 
he plans for the following year.

Chris Lott wrote:
> On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
>> I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
>> medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
>>
>>
>> Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
>> talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. 
>> Perhaps if
>> the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for 
>> enough ways
>> to
>> demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other 
>> poets. Frost
>> is probably not
>> a tough sell for the general public,
>
> And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
> well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
> of the lecturer.
>
> Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
> address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
> public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
> aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
> fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
> speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
> regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
> wasn't looking for in the first place.
>
> I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
> ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
> lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
> part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
> bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From ccooley  Fri Jul 20 11:46:18 2007
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:46:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet's Bookshelf
In-Reply-To: <200707192338.l6JNcqKR015744@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707192338.l6JNcqKR015744@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <19E6ACEA-5666-4317-A9F1-22C086232F9E@overdomain.com>

Jim,
Let me know if you want help putting it in an html table.  I am a  
paid (wow:) webmaster for a trade group and when I saw your list  
unseparated I thought of putting it into a table.  Also, I'd be  
willing to help you get the short descriptions David mentioned.   
Sounds like Tad has a website.  I'd like to put it on another site  
too, a new one I'll be building sometime in the fall.  Let me know  
what you'd like-- I like your project and I'd like to help.

Cris


> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:32:57 -0400
> From: jforjames at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
> You're right...it needs work. I'm going to lay it out?in html?& get  
> someone
> to host it on a website.
>
> I'd like to add more description about each book...but that?will  
> have to be phase two.
> In?phase one I'm?just?identifying the books as?
> poetry-related essays, literary criticism, manuals/guidebooks,? 
> aesthetics/philosophy, art-related essays, etc. Short & sweet? 
> categorizations?like that.?But?even that's not as easy it seems:?
> (1) Because I haven't read?all of these books (which I'm sure is no  
> surprise because it would
> be nigh impossible for anyone?except some super-scholar), and (2)  
> some of them thwart
> my?simplistic tags or?the book contains a mixed bag of one or more  
> categories.
>
> FYI...I'm compiling this list in a sortable Excel?spreadsheet,?and  
> if anyone wants a copy in that format, just email me.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:44 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Bookshelf
>
>
> A pretty impressive list.
>
>
>
> 2 quibbles, for what they're worth.??
>
>
>
>
> On my browser, at least, the whole list appears as a solid slug of  
> type.? An actual list would be much more readable.??
>
>
>
>
> Also, the longer the list, the less helpful it is without some  
> annotation.? Even some bare description would be nice, if not  
> evaluative comments or some categorization.??
>
>
>
>
> Among contemporary critical voices, I recommended David Kirby's  
> *Ultra-Talk* collection of essays a while back.? I would also like  
> to recommend with great pleasure his collection entitled *What Is a  
> Book*, which I've been dipping into with delight.??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> __
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's  
> free from AOL at AOL.com.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 20070719/4cd3d01c/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------




From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 14:08:41 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:08:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><008101c7cad5$fe1e4570$44
	fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
> rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
> poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
>
> c

It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal 
mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered by 
the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't get 
much coverage.

--Bob





From cvoisine  Thu Jul 19 20:43:53 2007
From: cvoisine (cvoisine at nmsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:43:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>


i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces, to be 
specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is that 
a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with the 
University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've worked 
hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general public. 
The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer quality 
(free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an issue in 
this part of New Mexico. 

i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...

Connie VOisine


Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/20/07, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 7/20/2007 2:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> > I'm all for it but there's not a poet on the planet that could fill a
> > medium sized room here, Billy Collins and Rod McKuen included.
> >
> >
> > Maybe there should be fewer poets reading their own work and more giving
> > talks and informal lectures about important poets and movements. Perhaps
> if
> > the state of the art is suffering it's because we don't look for enough
> ways
> > to
> > demonstrate our virtuosity in the reading of the works of other poets.
> Frost
> > is probably not
> > a tough sell for the general public,
> 
> And probably not a tough sell in the Northeast. I doubt it would do so
> well on the west coast, say, and without the relative celebrity name
> of the lecturer.
> 
> Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: get a semi-celebrity or higher,
> address something that can be credibly seen as regional, and make it a
> public event that's not directly about poetry. But each of those three
> aspects have their own particular dangers, and I've tasted the rotten
> fruit that can result when the person speaking doesn't know how to
> speak or what they speak of, when the concern really is strictly
> regional, or when it "degenerates" into the kind of reading the public
> wasn't looking for in the first place.
> 
> I'm all for bringing it to the people... I was just laughing a bit
> ruefully about my local situation and then imagining if the same
> lectures would have had success here or in New Mexico or wherever. In
> part it would be a function of the size of the population... I am in a
> bit of a different circumstance from most in that regard. :)
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 13:48:50 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:48:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
	<1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
> i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces, to be
> specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is that
> a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with the
> University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've worked
> hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general public.
> The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer quality
> (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an issue in
> this part of New Mexico.
>
> i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...

So who were your last five or so authors?

Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
when a few classes required attendance by all their students.

I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 20 13:50:02 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:50:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> > Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
> > rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
> > poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
> >
> > c
>
> It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal
> mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered by
> the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't get
> much coverage.

I didn't mean the reception of science popularizers I meant the
intellectual endeavour. You are obviously dismissive of pop poetry, do
you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 15:04:03 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:04:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf
	3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 7/20/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> > Davya Sobel and other popular science writers can easily overflow
>> > rooms even here. Is popularization of science the equivalent of pop
>> > poetry by Jewel and MC Rhymez-A-Lott?
>> >
>> > c
>>
>> It would depend, I suppose.  The best popular science writers would equal
>> mainstream poetry, I'd think.  Applied Science is relatively well-covered 
>> by
>> the media.  Even pure science does well.  But pure mathematics doesn't 
>> get
>> much coverage.
>
> I didn't mean the reception of science popularizers I meant the
> intellectual endeavour. You are obviously dismissive of pop poetry,

No, I'm saying it's different from serious poetry, and I include mainstream 
poetry in that category.



do
> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?

I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody into 
a sociology magazine?  I'm on his side there.  I'm all for science lectures 
or whatever.  I'm just saying that one that other scientists would take as 
seriously as serious poets take serious poetry would draw
no better than poetry.  It's very tangled.  So many variables, like who's 
doing it, what buzz topic may be involved, sulture vultury, etc.


--Bob 





From cvoisine  Fri Jul 20 00:46:30 2007
From: cvoisine (cvoisine at nmsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:46:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d30.104df040.33d21a26@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0707200819j5a41fe67q81a6cbcda2cd5637@mail.gmail.com>
	<1184892233.46a00549c8962@webmail.nmsu.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0707201048i15b3691dr728cacc76d18be63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184906790.46a03e2673325@webmail.nmsu.edu>

our last few readers were:

Sheila Black
Patty Seyburn
Thomas Sayers Ellis
Mary Jo Bang
Maria Melendez
Henry Shukman

all wonderful poets, but since we can't pay very more more than travel, we 
aren't getting the billy collins and whozits. i don't know what's working here 
except that it's a relatively medium-sized town (80,000) in a large county with 
only a little more population-wise. a lot of retired folks around, university 
folks, but also the small town attitude prevails--"oh connie's got another 
event, so let's go support her" or, "nothing else to do on a friday and they 
don't usually let us down". Maybe it's because the weather is always perfect? I 
don't know. Maybe because we have an opening reader who is a graduate student (a 
requirement for graduation is to read in our series) and that pulls locals in 
too. who knows? the series is about 30 years old...

connie



Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces,
> to be
> > specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. (Is
> that
> > a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with
> the
> > University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've
> worked
> > hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general
> public.
> > The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer
> quality
> > (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an
> issue in
> > this part of New Mexico.
> >
> > i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...
> 
> So who were your last five or so authors?
> 
> Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
> person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
> relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
> evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
> in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
> that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
> best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
> that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
> when a few classes required attendance by all their students.
> 
> I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
> is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
> often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From editor  Fri Jul 20 19:00:44 2007
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:00:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a noun sing =?iso8859-1?q?e=B7ratio_9=B72007?=
Message-ID: <200707202300.l6KN0ifA030291@mail20.atl.registeredsite.com>

a noun sing e?ratio 9 ?2007

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

with poetry by:  louis armand, bill lavender, jeff harrison, brian zimmer, jon 
cone, alifair skebe, nicole mauro, michelle cahill, kristy bowen, julie waugh, 
robyn alter bielawa, jack foley, ivan arguelles, jake berry, jonathan minton, 
scott wilkerson, and amy grier

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

edited by gregory vincent st. thomasino





From ralph  Fri Jul 20 19:22:04 2007
From: ralph (ralph at walleahpress.com.au)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:22:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
Message-ID: <2842.220.253.134.100.1184973724.squirrel@www.walleahpress.com.au>

>Taking the poetry  to the people, baby.

An interesting effort locally, similar in its involvement of the
community, was inviting community leaders - a civic leader, a politician,
a sportsperson etc - to the regular once-a-month poetry reading in the pub
(which is all we have in Hobart on a regular basis, augmented by the
occasional book launch) to read a favourite poem or two. Worked well too;
it boosted numbers, added a decidedly different element to the reading.
Like everything, I guess, it's just the organising that takes effort.

Ralph
walleahpress.com.au/b25







From robin.hamilton2  Fri Jul 20 20:19:22 2007
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:19:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00d301c7cb2c$ca45f390$4101a8c0@CoreDuo>

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>

>> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?
>
> I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody 
> into a sociology magazine?

No, that was Alan Sokal, Bob.  The book that he and Bricomart wrote after 
that -- _Intellectual Impostures_, but given a blander title when it was 
published in the US -- is more interesting.  Alternate chapters ravaging 
post-modernism (with the exception of Foucault) and on the epistimology of 
science.  (I found the later more intelligible.)

There's an interesting subtext to it -- American Left activist rage at the 
futility of merely intellectualised politics.  Which may be why Foucault 
gets off lightly -- Chomsky also allows Foucault as the only one of that 
pack of French intellectuals that he can stand.

Robin Hamilton






From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 20 22:25:59 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 21:25:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
References: <bfe.1a9be1cf.33d1783d@aol.com><9b1b9dab0707192347i1f8b8bafra1302fcca9d77ca5@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0707200822q4ecdf3b1t5e84f409996120bd@mail.gmail.com><00bf01c7caf9$0321c240$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707201050o74c545d6n39dcbd55fe606ee0@mail.gmail.com><00d701c7cb00$bf304a40$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00d301c7cb2c$ca45f390$4101a8c0@CoreDuo>
Message-ID: <013b01c7cb3e$7d5ce7c0$44fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>
>>> you feel the same way about what authors like Sobel do?
>>
>> I don't know what Sobel lectures on.  Is he the guy that got the parody 
>> into a sociology magazine?
>
> No, that was Alan Sokal, Bob.  The book that he and Bricomart wrote after 
> that -- _Intellectual Impostures_, but given a blander title when it was 
> published in the US -- is more interesting.  Alternate chapters ravaging 
> post-modernism (with the exception of Foucault) and on the epistimology of 
> science.  (I found the later more intelligible.)
>
> There's an interesting subtext to it -- American Left activist rage at the 
> futility of merely intellectualised politics.  Which may be why Foucault 
> gets off lightly -- Chomsky also allows Foucault as the only one of that 
> pack of French intellectuals that he can stand.
>
> Robin Hamilton


Ah, so.  Which means that I don't know who Sobel is.

Hey, glad to see your post, Robin!  Where have you been!?  I really truly 
have thought of you more than once in the past couple of months but been too 
lazy to e.mail you.

--Bob 





From Kazmandu  Sat Jul 21 14:42:09 2007
From: Kazmandu (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:42:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost 
Message-ID: <cff.12e5705d.33d3ad81@aol.com>

 
 
 
In 2001 I had a nine month work assignment in where I had lived in the Paseo 
arts district of Oklahoma City.  I frequented a local poetry reading every 
Wednesday evening that consistently had over 80 people attend.  Although much of 
it was slam I was astounded none the less. The energy level at these events 
was like that I have never seen before or since.  I was very surprised to find a 
smaller city with such gusto.  One thing I will have to say about smaller 
cities is that it is easier to find the area of town in where the arts are being 
performed.  When I was in Wichita Kansas I found a group of young poets that 
gravitated to Harry?s Uptown Bar and Grill where Albert Goldbarth could be seen 
every Tuesday evening. I have experienced a lot of good things in the smaller 
cities. 
The larger cities have pockets of energy distributed in diverse ways and my 
experience is that the communication between the pockets is not well connected. 
 I currently live in San Diego however; I have lived in Los Angeles, 
Philadelphia, Baltimore, Montreal, Manchester England and a few other cities.  I have 
to say the city that impressed me the most in the area of poetry was 
Philadelphia there seems to be many creative pockets there.  I know NYC has things 
happening all the time however, I have not lived there.   
Cheers, 
Kaz Maslanka 
_http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com_ 
(http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/) 
 
In a message dated 7/21/2007 9:55:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:

From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Van Doren and Frost
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;    Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1184906790.46a03e2673325 at webmail.nmsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

our last few readers were:

Sheila Black
Patty Seyburn
Thomas Sayers Ellis
Mary Jo Bang
Maria Melendez
Henry Shukman

all wonderful poets, but since we can't pay very more more than travel, we 
aren't getting the billy collins and whozits. i don't know what's working 
here 
except that it's a relatively medium-sized town (80,000) in a large county 
with 
only a little more population-wise. a lot of retired folks around, university 
folks, but also the small town attitude prevails--"oh connie's got another 
event, so let's go support her" or, "nothing else to do on a friday and they 
don't usually let us down". Maybe it's because the weather is always perfect? 
I 
don't know. Maybe because we have an opening reader who is a graduate student 
(a 
requirement for graduation is to read in our series) and that pulls locals in 
too. who knows? the series is about 30 years old...

connie



Quoting Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>:

> On 7/19/07, cvoisine at nmsu.edu <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > i'd like to offer the point of view of someone in New Mexico, Las Cruces,
> to be
> > specific. we regularly have 100+ people attending poetry readings here. 
(Is
> that
> > a medium-sized room?) The majority of the attendees are not involved with
> the
> > University. As curator of the only poetry reading series in town, i've
> worked
> > hard to find readers who will be of interest to writers and the general
> public.
> > The series has been running for 30 years and people trust us to offer
> quality
> > (free) entertainment on about 10 Friday nights a year. Apathy is not an
> issue in
> > this part of New Mexico.
> >
> > i'm not sure where you live Chris, but FYI...
> 
> So who were your last five or so authors?
> 
> Maybe I'll move there. I don't believe any poet or non-celebrity
> person discussing poetry would draw that many here in Alaska. Even the
> relatively well known regional authors presenting in groups don't, as
> evidenced by the just concluded book festival, the first of its kind
> in a long time, that revives the tradition of a longer-lived series
> that used to be run by the University. Even in the former conference's
> best times it was rare to see 100+ spectators regardless of speakers
> that ranged from big names to small. It might have gotten that large
> when a few classes required attendance by all their students.
> 
> I'm glad to know that poets reading their own work or that of others
> is successful elsewhere. It's a welcome bit of news considering how
> often and continuously I've been hearing and seeing the opposite.
> 
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



 
Cheers,
Kaz

_http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com/) 
_http://www.kazmaslanka.com/_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com/) 





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From editor  Tue Jul 24 01:32:19 2007
From: editor (David Baratier)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Transcontinental award
Message-ID: <79891.3178.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

  The Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press 
   
  All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee.
  Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested!
   
  Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements:
  1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part of the page count.
  2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published.  
  3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. 
  4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged. 
  5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces longer than one page. 
  6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry.  
   
  Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1000 and five percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. All submissions must have an August 15th, 2007, or earlier, postmark. This is
 an award for first books only.
   
  If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $18.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 (US) for other countries to cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made.
   
  If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $25.00 via paypal to info at pavementsaw.org. We will then send you an e-mail confirmation as well as where to e-mail the manuscript. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or as word (.doc) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty contract. A decision will be reached in November. Entries should be sent to:
   
  Pavement Saw Press
  Transcontinental Award Entry
  P.O. Box 6291
  Columbus, OH 43206
   
  All submissions must have an August 15th, or earlier, postmark or paypal payment.
  Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only.
If you have questions, please ask us: info at pavementsaw.org


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From jeff.newberry  Tue Jul 24 14:56:15 2007
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:56:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
Message-ID: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>

Did I pass?

No posts for a couple of days--just checking.

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From skip  Tue Jul 24 15:22:20 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:22:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Very few. Dog days. 

 

A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1st person:

 

"It was a slow day on the net . . . "

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
To: NewPoetry
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test

 

Did I pass?
 

No posts for a couple of days--just checking.

 

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
-William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 

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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 15:31:53 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0707241156r2e33ae9fpaea89036c598d0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A653A9.8000509@opus40.org>

The only problem was when you showed up for the final exam naked.

Jeff Newberry wrote:
> Did I pass?
>  
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>  
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 15:33:14 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:33:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> ?It was a slow day on the net . . . ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From skip  Tue Jul 24 15:49:06 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:49:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000001c7ce2b$b7957750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

You beat me. 

(I take Viagra for the wet dreams.)

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Tue Jul 24 15:54:49 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
References: <000701c7ce27$fa5fb090$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <054537A6-2B1C-4AFE-9B88-7D445CA8C454@earthlink.net>

A mole in the Bush is worth . . .

Hal

"The trouble with words is that you never know
  whose mouths they've been in."
			--Dennis Potter

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 24, 2007, at 2:33 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about  
> poetry, but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex  
> with Laura Bush. Any thoughts on what that means?
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>>
>> Very few. Dog days.
>>
>> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>>
>> ?It was a slow day on the net . . . ?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry- 
>> bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry
>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>>
>> Did I pass?
>>
>> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> -- 
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than  
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> ?William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From skip  Tue Jul 24 17:41:31 2007
From: skip (Skip Fox)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:41:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <46A653FA.4080601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Pure act of rebellion. Deposing the father. W. gets to f* with the entire
world and won't let anyone else f* what he's been f*ing with. So you'd be
f*ing the f*er's f*. I.e., you're all f*ed up. (The real meaning of the
dream?)

:)

At least you're ahead of me: I take Viagra just for the wet dreams.

(Writer's sidebar: That's the best way for the joke to go, but I wanted to
get in my original thought: I take Viagra in case I run into anyone in my
dreams who might occasion a wet dream. But I found no way to get that into
words that come close to the joke, such as it is, above. "I take Viagra just
so I can be ready for a wet dream?" Lacks the quip-snap. Any ideas?)

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test

Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
Any thoughts on what that means?

Skip Fox wrote:
>
> Very few. Dog days.
>
> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>
> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Did I pass?
>
> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd  Tue Jul 24 18:16:54 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:16:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] *After Confession* reviewed
Message-ID: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>

A review of Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession* has  
just come to my attention, and I am in turn bringing it to yours.   I  
don't agree with every point made by the reviewer, but this is  
certainly one of the most substantive and thoughtful reviews we've  
had.  I am happy to recommend it even though (inexplicably!) Kathleen  
Rooney isn't exactly dazzled by my own contribution.

http://www.cprw.com/Rooney/confession.htm

I can find no date on this essay, so I don't know how old it is, but  
our book appeared in 2001.  Nor can I find any link to the essay on  
the main page for *Contemporary Poetry Review*, which strikes me as a  
bit odd.  Perhaps someone familiar with the mysteries of CPR can  
enlighten me.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From halvard  Tue Jul 24 18:42:12 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:42:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] *After Confession* reviewed
In-Reply-To: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>
References: <406537DC-6DDB-493B-A421-596C61DA3DE0@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <47C4CE43-761C-480D-9770-D0FEAAEB287D@earthlink.net>

I know nothing about it, David, but google does:

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/emergencies/cpr.html


On Jul 24, 2007, at 5:16 PM, David Graham wrote:

>   Perhaps someone familiar with the mysteries of CPR can enlighten me.

"I am no Einstein."
	--Albert Einstein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From Opus40-01  Tue Jul 24 21:14:54 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:14:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
In-Reply-To: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <000501c7ce3b$6c685e40$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6A40E.9070400@opus40.org>

Well, I'll be f*ed.

Skip Fox wrote:
> Pure act of rebellion. Deposing the father. W. gets to f* with the entire
> world and won't let anyone else f* what he's been f*ing with. So you'd be
> f*ing the f*er's f*. I.e., you're all f*ed up. (The real meaning of the
> dream?)
>
> :)
>
> At least you're ahead of me: I take Viagra just for the wet dreams.
>
> (Writer's sidebar: That's the best way for the joke to go, but I wanted to
> get in my original thought: I take Viagra in case I run into anyone in my
> dreams who might occasion a wet dream. But I found no way to get that into
> words that come close to the joke, such as it is, above. "I take Viagra just
> so I can be ready for a wet dream?" Lacks the quip-snap. Any ideas?)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of TheOldMole
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:33 PM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test
>
> Well, I haven't been doing anywhere near enough thinking about poetry, 
> but a couple of nights ago i did dream I was having sex with Laura Bush. 
> Any thoughts on what that means?
>
> Skip Fox wrote:
>   
>> Very few. Dog days.
>>
>> A terrible beginning for a modern mystery novel, 1^st person:
>>
>> "It was a slow day on the net . . . "
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Newberry
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:56 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry
>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Test
>>
>> Did I pass?
>>
>> No posts for a couple of days--just checking.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> -- 
>> "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than 
>> recollects, longer than knowing even wonders."
>> -William Faulkner, Light in August
>>
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>   
>>     
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From barry.spacks  Wed Jul 25 22:13:09 2007
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:13:09 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "After Confession"
In-Reply-To: <200707251600.l6PG05KQ021712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707251600.l6PG05KQ021712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <AF8E28FE-5845-4776-9908-A1B88E014044@verizon.net>


On Jul 25, 2007, at 9:00 AM, David Graham wrote:

> A review of Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession* has
> just come to my attention, and I am in turn bringing it to yours.

Good to see the collection receive extended notice, David. Wanted
to mention to other teachers on the list that I've twice used it as a  
required text in my
Poetry as Memoir course here at UCSB, and will again the next time
I offer that reading/writing class. The essays provide a background of
intellectual intensity to what the kids are trying to create in their  
own work.
The book ranks, for me and my charges, at about 102 on a scale of 10.

enthusiastically,

Barry
I 



From JforJames  Thu Jul 26 08:50:11 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:50:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ruth Stone at 92
Message-ID: <c2c.161f13eb.33d9f283@aol.com>

_http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070725/OPINION03/70
7250341/1039/OPINION03_ 
(http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070725/OPINION03/707250341/1039/OPINION03) 
 
A poet's legacy of wonderment
 
July 25, 2007 
 
By YVONNE DALEY 

I met poet Ruth Stone, who is to be feted  Thursday in the Capitol chamber as 
Vermont's newest poet laureate, when I was a  young hippie living in Goshen 
with a passel of small children.
 





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From JforJames  Thu Jul 26 08:57:21 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:57:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Of Feminism... Or Vice Versa
Message-ID: <c11.19fd7c95.33d9f431@aol.com>

_http://desicritics.org/2007/07/25/000153.php_ 
(http://desicritics.org/2007/07/25/000153.php) 
 
The Poetry Of Feminism... Or Vice Versa
July 25, 2007
Aditi  Nadkarni

Since my train of thought has been chuffing along these lines for a  while, 
this article too is about the F-word that seems to be raising many  hackles: 
"feminism".
 
Mind you, this particular article will be difficult to comment on for all  
and sundry. 




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From chris.lott  Thu Jul 26 14:47:35 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:47:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fry and Laurie: Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707261147w557f86faj9410111efcaaca26@mail.gmail.com>

Thought you might enjoy this video, Fry and Laurie and a prize winning poem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiHe-WXhNt0

c



From jforjames  Thu Jul 26 15:13:27 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:13:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute to Len Roberts
Message-ID: <8C99DD02E05FC53-BA0-2259@WEBMAIL-DF14.sysops.aol.com>

Subject: Tribute to Len Roberts

A tribute to recently deceased poet Len Roberts appears at
>> http://tpqonline.org

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd  Thu Jul 26 22:00:33 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:00:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poets Project
Message-ID: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>

I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful  
American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't  
seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by  
various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser  
is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does  
Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.

The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some  
degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.

Recently I've been spending some time near a library with the full  
run, so I've been perusing their editions of Kenneth Koch, Carl  
Sandburg, Muriel Rukeyser, A. R. Ammons, Walt Whitman, and John  
Berryman.

Previously I've looked at their selections of Millay, Williams,  
Roethke, Winters, Menashe, Fearing, Brooks, Karl Shapiro, and Amy  
Lowell.

Every book is beautifully produced, intelligently edited, and well  
introduced.  Worth looking at even when you know the poets well.

The Koch edition, edited by Ron Padgett, is a particular delight.   
Koch is one of those poets whose excellence is nicely highlighted by  
such a selection. Kevin Young's Berryman also looks very interesting;  
I've mostly read his introduction so far.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 07:51:45 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:51:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc. 


  The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.  


  No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck off dead poets can be praised too highly.

  --Bob G.
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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 08:45:28 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:45:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>

Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a  
buck" is close to being literally accurate.

The LOA is a nonprofit outfit, and I very much doubt anyone is  
getting rich (even Rich!) keeping Muriel Rukeyser's work in print,  
much less truly neglected oddballs like Kenneth Fearing and Samuel  
Menashe, who in any other context you would likely praise for their  
outsider status. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 27, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
> I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful  
> American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you  
> haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected  
> poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.    
> Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David  
> Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.
>
> The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some  
> degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the  
> books.
>
> No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck  
> off dead poets can be praised too highly.
>
> --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:11:44 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:11:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a buck" is close to being literally accurate.  

  "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.


  The LOA is a nonprofit outfit, 

  "Nonprofit" = turns its profits into salaries instead of into dividends to shareholders, which for some reason makes them "noncommercial"; costs lawyers' fees to set up so helps give law firms a buck

  You hit another button of mine, David: my one-man publishing outfit, the Runaway Spoon Press, is not non-profit because I can't afford to pay to get it identified as that; nor is it, really, non-profit--it's money-losing.  I can't get government grants because, fo one thing, I have no managing director at a salary of twenty thousand or more to show that my company is serious.

  and I very much doubt anyone is getting rich (even Rich!) keeping Muriel Rukeyser's work in print, much less truly neglected oddballs like Kenneth Fearing and Samuel Menashe, who in any other context you would likely praise for their outsider status. . . .

  Keeping known dead poets in print is not as important as getting living poets into significant print.  Super-especially inasmuch as ALL poets actually are in print--because one can go to most libraries and get copies . . .  Ooops, I take that back.  There are libraries one can visit to get copies of their work.

  The Internet is also making out-of-printedness less and less unimportant.  As for making a buck, I bet everyone involved in this project has made more from it than I have as a poet in my whole life.  More, in fact, than I and any ten of the poets my press has published have made as poets in all our lives taken together.

  There's also the distribution of recognition.  Muriel Rukeyser doesn't need the favorable attention this project will give her; there are valuable poets alive who could use such attention, though.  There are valuable critics, too, who could use the attention being editors of a volume in this series would give them much more than the known critics chosen as editors.   

  That said, sure, it's good to know that someone is seriously getting good volumes of good poets into print.  The real problem is lack of balance--all kinds of funds going into projects like this, very little going into what  I consider the R&D department of American poetry.

  Hey, I think I've done a blog entry.  Not that I'm saying anything I haven't said a zillion times at my blog but nobody visits my blog, so who cares.

  --Bob




  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu


  Home Page:
  http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html


  Poetry Library:
  http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
  ==========================================






  On Jul 27, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:




      I'd like to offer another rave recommendation for the wonderful American Poets Project put out by Library of America.  If you haven't seen these books, they are small hardcovers of selected poems by various dead Americans, most introduced by fellow poets.   Rukeyser is edited by Rich; Edward Hirsch does Roethke; David Lehman does Ammons, Elizabeth Alexander does Brooks, etc.  


      The retail price for each is about $20, and I gather there is some degree of subsidy from the estate of James Merrill to produce the books.   


      No project that gives living mediocrities a chance to make a buck off dead poets can be praised too highly.

      --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:28:28 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:28:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project



  Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a buck" is close to being literally accurate.  

    "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.

    Ooops, I missed the joke.  Yes, they each made a buck, no more.  (Yeah, right.)
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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 10:30:34 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:30:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BABB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>

That's one of the things I love about you, Bob--that if I miss one  
message
I can always catch the gist of it in the next. But what's your blog  
address?
I'd like to drop by and say hello to nobody.

Hal


On Jul 27, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Hey, I think I've done a blog entry.  Not that I'm saying anything  
> I haven't said a zillion times at my blog but nobody visits my  
> blog, so who cares.
>
> --Bob
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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 10:36:24 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:36:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion du jour: Send a chapbook to a war criminal
	for Tinfish Press
References: <46A982C1.5020309@hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <C1C457D0-C5A7-4227-A28C-920BCD2BD29E@earthlink.net>


"Technological progress is like an ax
  in the hands of a pathological criminal."
		--Albert Einstein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html




Begin forwarded message:

> From: Susan Webster Schultz <schultz at HAWAII.RR.COM>
> Date: July 27, 2007 12:29:37 AM GMT-05:00
> To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Send a chapbook to a war criminal for Tinfish Press
> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
>
> Tinfish Press's ?Send a Book to a War Criminal? Drive
>
> Tinfish Press has just published a chapbook by Sarith Peou, titled  
> CORPSE WATCHING. This book of poems details Peou's experiences  
> under the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia. Please see  
> http://tinfishpress.com/corpse.html for details.
>
> I decided to send a copy to former Secretary of State and Nobel  
> Peace Prize Laureate, Henry Kissinger, whose actions were largely  
> responsible for the Khmer Rouge's coming to power in 1975.
>
> But I want everyone to have this chance. Send $10 to Tinfish Press  
> (less than the usual price of $12) and we will send a copy of the  
> book to the war criminal of your choice with a personalized card to  
> say who's responsible for sending it along. There are many such war  
> criminals?choose one or more. If at all possible, please track down  
> their addresses for us.
>
>
> Susan M. Schultz, Editor
> Tinfish Press
> 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9
> Kane`ohe, HI 96744
> http://tinfishpress.com

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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 10:36:59 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:36:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <3EF46526-703B-4D52-A8DC-2D97A81EE94A@ripon.edu>

The American Poets Project books all list in their front matter their  
funding sources, which appear to be several private foundations.  No  
government support is noted.

I would suggest that any book or series which is able to make a tidy  
profit would not be in need of such subsidy.  I remain unhorrified by  
the notion that the people working on these books may earn some cash  
for their time & expertise.

In any case, I felt and feel that this is a wonderful publishing  
project, unusual in several respects.  As such it's well worth  
supporting, and even possibly worth discussing in terms of the poetry  
it presents.   If anyone's of a mind. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Grumman
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
>
>
> Well, Bob, I'd venture to guess that in the present case, "make a  
> buck" is close to being literally accurate.
>
> "NOT close," I assume you mean, David.
>
> Ooops, I missed the joke.  Yes, they each made a buck, no more.   
> (Yeah, right.)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 11:50:53 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:50:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu><017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  That's one of the things I love about you, Bob--that if I miss one message
  I can always catch the gist of it in the next.

  You can catch the gist of all the messages to NewPoetry I've ever written just by reading one, Hal.

   But what's your blog address?
  I'd like to drop by and say hello to nobody.


  Hal

  How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit it.  Nobody does.

  --Bob

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From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 11:41:21 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:41:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit it.
> Nobody does.

Then who writes the email you sometimes answer on your blog? :)

I read it when I remember, which is pretty often. I wish I had time to
follow through in helping get you setup with something that produced a
feed, then I'd remember all the time.

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/AABloghome.html

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 12:54:29 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:54:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><4526FF9A-7760-4F5D-BA
	BB-1D833279C3D9@ripon.edu><017301c7d060$739a5340$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><01a301c7d062$c9fef450$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<3EF46526-703B-4D52-A8DC-2D97A81EE94A@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01d001c7d06e$ce821500$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The American Poets Project books all list in their front matter their funding sources, which appear to be several private foundations.  No government support is noted.


So what?  It's there since all the private foundations are getting tax breaks, as is the American Poets Project.


  I would suggest that any book or series which is able to make a tidy profit would not be in need of such subsidy.  I remain unhorrified by the notion that the people working on these books may earn some cash for their time & expertise.
  I also am unhorrified.  Just disgruntled that much more valuable projects are not out there giving much better people a chance at earning any cash.

  In any case, I felt and feel that this is a wonderful publishing project, unusual in several respects.  As such it's well worth supporting, and even possibly worth discussing in terms of the poetry it presents.   If anyone's of a mind. . . .


  Not I.  I have the weird belief that one ought to discuss poetry of a kind that isn't being discussed in a thousand or more college classrooms and let the academics take care of the latter--in their classrooms.  (And, yes, I do discuss my kind of poetry, but not here often because few here seem interested in it.)

  --Bob
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From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 12:57:42 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:57:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><017301c7d060$739a5340
	$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net><01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>>
>> How would I know the address of my blog--I post to it but I never visit 
>> it.
>> Nobody does.
>
> Then who writes the email you sometimes answer on your blog? :)

Ha, that comes directly to me--then I post it with my comments at my blog 
but without visiting the thing!

> I read it when I remember, which is pretty often. I wish I had time to
> follow through in helping get you setup with something that produced a
> feed, then I'd remember all the time.
> http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/AABloghome.html
>
> c

Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or 
someone did.

--Bob





From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 12:50:13 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:50:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270950h695d7bd2ye513008cde304ef2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or
> someone did.

It's basically an automatically generated list of material that a
person can subcribe to in a "feed reader." A happy part of that
equation is knowing when there is something new automatically...

Most blog software (most publishing software of any kind nowadays...
it used to be about reading blogs but more and more I read news,
magazines and all kinds of plain old sites that way) automatically
creates the feeds.

c



From chris.lott  Fri Jul 27 12:52:05 2007
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:52:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu>
	<015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-845E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net>
	<01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0707270952q51d8cf90tf27a0e50a5edb3d3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Chris.  What's a feed?  I think you told me at once point, or
> someone did.

The tech term for a feed is RSS (there are other kinds, but most
readers can handle them all so who cares which one)... there is a
great little video that explains feeds and reading them with mostly
markers and paper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0klgLsSxGsU

c



From bobgrumman  Fri Jul 27 14:42:34 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:42:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
References: <4E717BDF-C968-4AB1-9F02-8DB791E0373E@ripon.edu><015e01c7d044$83db0130$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><B6C4F1AF-0ED8-409F-84
	5E-932D2E0E0CF2@earthlink.net><01bc01c7d065$ebf2ca20$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0707270841r125c948bybaf43401052c64df@mail
	.gmail.com><01d501c7d06f$4129e380$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0707270952q51d8cf90tf27a0e50a5edb3d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f401c7d07d$e893d3c0$9ffad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the data, Chris.  One of these days, I'll see about a feed. 
Could be useful, I see, in a lot of ways: for instance, I could fee the blog 
entries to myself, which would make them handy when I was offline.

--Bob 





From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 14:45:28 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:45:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>

As I Sit Writing Here

As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
May filter in my dally songs.

-- Walt Whitman



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 14:52:54 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:52:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Hal

"To emphasize only the beautiful seems to
me to be like a mathematical system that
only concerns itself with positive numbers."
                      --Franz Kafka

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html





On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:

> As I Sit Writing Here
>
> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
> May filter in my dally songs.
>
> -- Walt Whitman
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From grahamd  Fri Jul 27 15:02:26 2007
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:02:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>

On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>
> Hal
======================


Yes.  And here's another:


Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
freshly exuding,
Scooting obliquely high and low.

Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.

The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
junction,
The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!

Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html

Poetry Library:
http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



>
> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>
>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>
>> -- Walt Whitman
>>

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From halvard  Fri Jul 27 17:23:12 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:23:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>
	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>
	<D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>

Not bad, David. Here's another--

What Your Doctor Knows

Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
anecdotes in spite of all your tense
accusations, while, despite the wallflowers

gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
careens in your heart, love by second sight.
The greater the yearning, the greater
the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.


HJ

"To go is to go farther."
               --Kenneth Koch

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:

> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>
>> Hal
> ======================
>
>
> Yes.  And here's another:
>
>
> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
> freshly exuding,
> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>
> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>
> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
> junction,
> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>
> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>
>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>
>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From Opus40-01  Fri Jul 27 17:58:38 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:58:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
In-Reply-To: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>
References: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80@ripon.edu>	<309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8@earthlink.net>	<D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C@ripon.edu>
	<2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46AA6A8E.9010101@opus40.org>

Ooh, that's good.

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Not bad, David. Here's another--
>
> What Your Doctor Knows
>  
> Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
> coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
> anecdotes in spite of all your tense
> accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>  
> gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
> careens in your heart, love by second sight.
> The greater the yearning, the greater
> the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>
>
> HJ
>
> "To go is to go farther."
>               --Kenneth Koch
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at earthlink.net <mailto:halvard at earthlink.net>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 
> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalvard/index.html>
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>
>>> Hal
>> ======================
>>
>>
>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>
>>
>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising, 
>> freshly exuding,
>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>  
>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>  
>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their 
>> junction,
>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>  
>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me. 
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> *As I Sit Writing Here*
>>>>  
>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>  
>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From JforJames  Fri Jul 27 20:46:45 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:46:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5@aol.com>

 


As I Sit Writing  Here
 
As I sit writing here, sick and  sold out,
Not my least burden is that  dulness of the beers, impotence,
Ungracious goons, belly  aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
May filter in my dally  songs.
 
-- Chaz  Bukowski





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Sat Jul 28 07:15:56 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:15:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
References: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003201c7d108$b06b6400$90fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>




    As I Sit Writing Here
     
    As I sit writing here, sick and sold out,
    Not my least burden is that dulness of the beers, impotence,
    Ungracious goons, belly aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
    May filter in my dally songs.
     
    -- Chaz Bukowski
  Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"

  --Bob




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Edward.Byrne  Sat Jul 28 10:04:40 2007
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
Message-ID: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>


Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------





From Sigauke  Sat Jul 28 12:33:20 2007
From: Sigauke (Sigauke, Emmanuel )
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:33:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
References: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <BA9EA20BB68C2C4F9E57DA81E386A9AE016B99FB@CRC-EXCH01.crc.ad.losrios.edu>

Thanks for the posting Ed. 
 
I have a question regarding blogs and poetry. Is it a good idea to create (and post) all my poetry on a blog? I have posted over two hundred pieces on mine, but I am considering removing them. There is something about creating poetry on a blog that seems to make the process less --- something. 
 

________________________________

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Edward Byrne
Sent: Sat 7/28/2007 7:04 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!




Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog:
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From pmetres  Sat Jul 28 12:59:27 2007
From: pmetres (Philip Metres)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:59:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] new on Behind the Lines
Message-ID: <20070728125927.AOH62865@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Folks, if you have any thoughts, any recent web discoveries on poetry and war, poetry and cultural labor, poetry and dissidence, send them along to me.  Thanks: 

New on "Behind the Lines" blog: 

Some Thoughts on "Operation Homecoming" 
Mark Halliday's "Fort Brag"/Why Do "Git 'Er Done" and Vietnam almost rhyme 
World Leader Pretend/"PeaceMaker" Computer Game 
David-Baptiste Chirot's "See Scrawls"/Where Poetry and Visuality Meet 
"Homeland Security" by Halvard Johnson 
"Murder Machine" by Kurt Schwitters 
Edward Dougherty's "Speaking for Myself" 
Re-Thinking the Homefront/"War Zone" by Maggie Hadleigh-West 
Kenneth Koch's "The Pleasures of Peace"/The New York School and War Resistance 
The Lemonheads' "Let's Just Laugh"/Evan Dando Going Political 
Mahmoud Darwish's Return to Haifa/"Identity Card" 
Andrew Epstein's "Poem Beginning with a Line from George Bush.." 
"The End(s) of Russian Poetry: An Interview with Dmitry Prigov 
Dmitry Alexandrovich Prigov, Soviet-Era Avant-Garde Poet, RIP 
Halvard Johnson's Call for Poems on the War for BIG BRIGE 
K. Silem Mohammad's "Peace Kittens"/Flarf and its Dissident Contents 

Philip Metres
Associate Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
fax: (216) 397-1723
http://www.philipmetres.com
http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com


---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:00:05 -0400
>From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu  
>Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27  
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Re: American Poets Project (Bob Grumman)
>   2. As I sit writing here (David Graham)
>   3. Re: As I sit writing here (Halvard Johnson)
>   4. Re: As I sit writing here (David Graham)
>   5. Re: As I sit writing here (Halvard Johnson)
>   6. Re: As I sit writing here (TheOldMole)
>   7. Re: As I sit writing here (JforJames at aol.com)
>   8. Re: As I sit writing here (Bob Grumman)
>   9. Happy Birthday J.A.! (Edward Byrne)
>  10. RE: Happy Birthday J.A.! (Sigauke, Emmanuel )
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:42:34 -0500
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Poets Project
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <01f401c7d07d$e893d3c0$9ffad740 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>Thanks for the data, Chris.  One of these days, I'll see about a feed. 
>Could be useful, I see, in a lot of ways: for instance, I could fee the blog 
>entries to myself, which would make them handy when I was offline.
>
>--Bob 
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:45:28 -0400
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <A4399E82-B03D-4DE2-A097-1EC1A14F9A80 at ripon.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>As I Sit Writing Here
>
>As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>May filter in my dally songs.
>
>-- Walt Whitman
>
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
>Poetry Library:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>==========================================
>
>
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:52:54 -0500
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <309BBFE0-B38B-46D9-885E-773C63187AC8 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>
>Hal
>
>"To emphasize only the beautiful seems to
>me to be like a mathematical system that
>only concerns itself with positive numbers."
>                      --Franz Kafka
>
>Halvard Johnson
>================
>halvard at earthlink.net
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>
>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>
>> -- Walt Whitman
>>
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:02:26 -0400
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <D687046B-4F12-4B09-8752-E2CDE8E9A39C at ripon.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>
>> Hal
>======================
>
>
>Yes.  And here's another:
>
>
>Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
>freshly exuding,
>Scooting obliquely high and low.
>
>Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>
>The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
>junction,
>The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>
>Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>
>Home Page:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>
>Poetry Library:
>http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>==========================================
>
>
>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>
>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>
>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:23:12 -0500
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <2AD15875-89FA-4826-A6E6-E0E65100AE12 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Not bad, David. Here's another--
>
>What Your Doctor Knows
>
>Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
>coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
>anecdotes in spite of all your tense
>accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>
>gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
>careens in your heart, love by second sight.
>The greater the yearning, the greater
>the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>
>
>HJ
>
>"To go is to go farther."
>               --Kenneth Koch
>
>Halvard Johnson
>================
>halvard at earthlink.net
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>
>
>
>On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>
>>> Hal
>> ======================
>>
>>
>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>
>>
>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising,  
>> freshly exuding,
>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>
>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>
>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their  
>> junction,
>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>
>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me.
>>
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I Sit Writing Here
>>>>
>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>
>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:58:38 -0400
>From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <46AA6A8E.9010101 at opus40.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Ooh, that's good.
>
>Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> Not bad, David. Here's another--
>>
>> What Your Doctor Knows
>>  
>> Knowledge you often hate on first hearing,
>> coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect
>> anecdotes in spite of all your tense
>> accusations, while, despite the wallflowers
>>  
>> gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten
>> careens in your heart, love by second sight.
>> The greater the yearning, the greater
>> the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference.
>>
>>
>> HJ
>>
>> "To go is to go farther."
>>               --Kenneth Koch
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard at earthlink.net <mailto:halvard at earthlink.net>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 
>> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalvard/index.html>
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:02 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> Hal
>>> ======================
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes.  And here's another:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hefts of the moving world at innocent gambols, silently rising, 
>>> freshly exuding,
>>> Scooting obliquely high and low.
>>>  
>>> Something I cannot see puts upward libidinous prongs,
>>> Seas of bright juice suffuse heaven.
>>>  
>>> The earth by the sky staid with . . . . the daily close of their 
>>> junction,
>>> The heaved challenge from the east that moment over my head,
>>> The mocking taunt, See then whether you shall be master!
>>>  
>>> Dazzling and tremendous how quick the sunrise would kill me,
>>> If I could not now and always send sunrise out of me. 
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>>
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/About%20Me.html
>>>
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://web.mac.com/drjazz/iWeb/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:45 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *As I Sit Writing Here*
>>>>>  
>>>>> As I sit writing here, sick and grown old,
>>>>> Not my least burden is that dulness of the years, querilities,
>>>>> Ungracious glooms, aches, lethargy, constipation, whimpering ennui,
>>>>> May filter in my dally songs.
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- Walt Whitman
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>   
>
>-- 
>Tad Richards
>http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:46:45 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <cd8.15548f81.33dbebf5 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> 
>
>
>As I Sit Writing  Here
> 
>As I sit writing here, sick and  sold out,
>Not my least burden is that  dulness of the beers, impotence,
>Ungracious goons, belly  aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
>May filter in my dally  songs.
> 
>-- Chaz  Bukowski
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>-------------- next part --------------
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:15:56 -0500
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <003201c7d108$b06b6400$90fad740 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>    As I Sit Writing Here
>     
>    As I sit writing here, sick and sold out,
>    Not my least burden is that dulness of the beers, impotence,
>    Ungracious goons, belly aches, constipation, whimpering pee,
>    May filter in my dally songs.
>     
>    -- Chaz Bukowski
>  Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"
>
>  --Bob
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0500
>From: "Edward Byrne" <Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <1185631480-453.00015.01840-smmsdV2.1.6 at mailhub.valpo.edu>
>
>
>Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
>piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
>his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
>following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Edward Byrne
>Department of English
>322 Huegli Hall
>Valparaiso University
>Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
>E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
>Blog: 
>http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
>E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
>VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
>Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
>Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:33:20 -0700
>From: "Sigauke, Emmanuel " <Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>To: <edward.byrne at valpo.edu>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>	&amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID:
>	<BA9EA20BB68C2C4F9E57DA81E386A9AE016B99FB at CRC-EXCH01.crc.ad.losrios.edu>
>	
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Thanks for the posting Ed. 
> 
>I have a question regarding blogs and poetry. Is it a good idea to create (and post) all my poetry on a blog? I have posted over two hundred pieces on mine, but I am considering removing them. There is something about creating poetry on a blog that seems to make the process less --- something. 
> 
>
>________________________________
>
>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Edward Byrne
>Sent: Sat 7/28/2007 7:04 AM
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday J.A.!
>
>
>
>
>Today is John Ashbery's 80th birthday.  To celebrate, I have posted a
>piece on my blog containing links to some audio by Ashbery, including
>his rather humorous reading of "My Philosophy of Life." It is at the
>following: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>Edward Byrne
>Department of English
>322 Huegli Hall
>Valparaiso University
>Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
>E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
>Blog:
>http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/
>
>Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
>E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
>VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
>Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
>Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27
>******************************************



From anny.ballardini  Sat Jul 28 13:20:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:20:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] new on Behind the Lines
References: <20070728125927.AOH62865@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <003701c7d13b$9f9b28d0$1bab3252@ANNY>

Hi Philip,

see Enough:
http://spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=1882022483

I didn't like all the poems but some are exceptional,
good luck,

Anny

From: "Philip Metres" <pmetres at jcu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 6:59 PM


> Folks, if you have any thoughts, any recent web discoveries on poetry and 
> war, poetry and cultural labor, poetry and dissidence, send them along to 
> me.  Thanks:
>
> New on "Behind the Lines" blog:
>
> Some Thoughts on "Operation Homecoming"
> Mark Halliday's "Fort Brag"/Why Do "Git 'Er Done" and Vietnam almost rhyme
> World Leader Pretend/"PeaceMaker" Computer Game
> David-Baptiste Chirot's "See Scrawls"/Where Poetry and Visuality Meet
> "Homeland Security" by Halvard Johnson
> "Murder Machine" by Kurt Schwitters
> Edward Dougherty's "Speaking for Myself"
> Re-Thinking the Homefront/"War Zone" by Maggie Hadleigh-West
> Kenneth Koch's "The Pleasures of Peace"/The New York School and War 
> Resistance
> The Lemonheads' "Let's Just Laugh"/Evan Dando Going Political
> Mahmoud Darwish's Return to Haifa/"Identity Card"
> Andrew Epstein's "Poem Beginning with a Line from George Bush.."
> "The End(s) of Russian Poetry: An Interview with Dmitry Prigov
> Dmitry Alexandrovich Prigov, Soviet-Era Avant-Garde Poet, RIP
> Halvard Johnson's Call for Poems on the War for BIG BRIGE
> K. Silem Mohammad's "Peace Kittens"/Flarf and its Dissident Contents
>
> Philip Metres
> Associate Professor
> Department of English
> John Carroll University
> 20700 N. Park Blvd
> University Heights, OH 44118
> phone: (216) 397-4528 (work)
> fax: (216) 397-1723
> http://www.philipmetres.com
> http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com
>





From JforJames  Sat Jul 28 13:54:25 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:54:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
Message-ID: <c0e.15826bd6.33dcdcd1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/28/2007 6:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Ah, but  shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter  from?"


Could be, Bob, but then again he probably smoked 'em without  filters, eh?
Finnegan



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From bobgrumman  Sat Jul 28 15:20:46 2007
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:20:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As I sit writing here
References: <c0e.15826bd6.33dcdcd1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d901c7d14c$68b5c0d0$90fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 7/28/2007 6:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    Ah, but shouldn't it be, for something by Buk, "filter from?"
  Could be, Bob, but then again he probably smoked 'em without filters, eh?
  Finnegan

  Hey, I was serious, Jim!
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From halvard  Sat Jul 28 15:38:38 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:38:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: A Little Story
Message-ID: <D927D017-75B8-4ED1-A98C-493379FB9144@earthlink.net>

Sonnet: A Little Story

We cannot just sit here and say nothing, so I?ll tell you
what?I?ll tell you a little story. Once upon a time
there was a little president who thought he could be bigger.
He tried and tried to grow himself but only got him smaller.

He sent out folks to find folks littler than him so he could
make them like him more. But they, they just didn?t listen and so
he had to kick their butts. Then they, they only hollered, and he,
he smallified some more. I?ll smallify the world, he said, and

then, if?n they don?t line up with me, I?ll smallify them more. I?ll
rubble-ize their houses and turn their lunches into ash. I?ll give
all of them nicknames that?ll wither up their butts. But they,
they didn?t listen, and he just grew him smaller and smaller,

small ears and little eyes and all. By now, he?s only visible to Hub-
ble. And naked eyes? They just don?t even see him anymore.




Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html









From JforJames  Sun Jul 29 13:47:09 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:47:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others: George Oppen
Message-ID: <bdc.17dab191.33de2c9d@aol.com>

Squall
 
         coming about
When  the squall knocked her
Flat on the water. When she came
Upright, here rig  was gone
And her crew clinging to her. The water in her cabins
Washing  thru companionways and hatches
And the deep ribs
Had in that  mid-passage
No kinship with any sea.
 

--George Oppen
(The Collected Poems of George Oppen, New Directions,  1975)
 
& an Oppen quote today...
_http://ursprache.blogspot.com/_ (http://ursprache.blogspot.com/) 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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From alexdickow9  Sun Jul 29 14:31:57 2007
From: alexdickow9 (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back
In-Reply-To: <200707291600.l6TG04KR025603@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <102869.73601.qm@web35515.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi folks,
I'm back from teaching in Francypants. 
What'd I miss?
You can now by that journal with my poem in it by
paypal, www.larepubliquemondialedeslettres.com.
More later. Hope everyone's had a swell summer.
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 29 14:31:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:31:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Duchamp
Message-ID: <010101c7d20e$bc4879f0$8caf3452@ANNY>

and here is Duchamp on his indifference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUYovIM8WQc



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 04:43:07 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:43:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director,
	Dies at 89
Message-ID: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

This page was sent to you by: anny.ballardini at tin.it.

INTERNATIONAL | July 30, 2007
Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture history, died today, Swedish news reports said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1






----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018

Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 08:49:54 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:49:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: No Getting Away From City Issues
Message-ID: <002101c7d2a8$20f16c60$5eab3252@ANNY>

FW: No Getting Away From City Issues

This story was sent to you by: dennis barone

--------------------
No Getting Away From City Issues
--------------------

By DENNIS BARONE

July 22 2007

The planning challenges facing Harford are similar to those confronting other urban areas within the nation and across the globe. This fact became very clear to me during two recent trips: one to Portland, Maine, and the other to Naples, Italy. The common themes are the automobile, loss of industry and cultural tourism.

The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/commentary/hc-plcbarone0722.artjul22,0,7123064.story

Visit Courant.com at http://www.courant.com

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From Opus40-01  Mon Jul 30 10:50:00 2007
From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:50:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies
	at 89
In-Reply-To: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <46ADFA98.3070601@opus40.org>

Ingmar Bergman was such a rite of passage for me. His movies were among 
the first grownup aesthetic experiences I discovered on my own, and I 
still watch The Seventh Seal regularly.


anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 	
> The New York Times <http://www.nytimes.com/>E-mail This 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02b-nyt5-511278&ad=once_88x31_Nowplaying.gif&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchlight%2Ecom%2Fonce%2F> 
>
> *This page was sent to you by: * anny.ballardini at tin.it
>
> *INTERNATIONAL * | July 30, 2007
> * Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1>* 
>
> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture 
> history, died today, Swedish news reports said.
>
> 	
>
> Most E-mailed
> 1. Six Killers | Cancer: Cancer Patients, Lost in a Maze of Uneven 
> Care 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/health/29Cancer.html?ex=1186459200&en=0e98474bf6711498&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 2. In the ?60s, a Future Candidate Poured Her Heart Out in Letters 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/politics/29letter.html?ex=1186459200&en=8e91834e5763c443&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 3. Handmade Alabama Quilts Find Fame and Controversy 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/29quilt.html?ex=1186459200&en=eb3b816a15312247&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 4. The Nation: Sending Back the Doctor?s Bill 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/weekinreview/29berenson.html?ex=1186459200&en=d41ea9e9a0257fc7&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
> 5. Certain Degrees Now Cost More at Public Universities 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/29tuition.html?ex=1186459200&en=c16cf6293fcbb65e&ei=5070&emc=eta1> 
>
>
> ? Go to Complete List 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/gst/mostemailed.html?type=1>
>
> Advertisement
>
> *SUNSHINE*
> >From Danny Boyle The director of Trainspotting and 28 Days Later
> In Select Theatres July 20
> Click here to watch trailer 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine> 
> 	
> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine>
>
>
>
> Copyright 2007 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The New 
> York Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> | Privacy Policy 
> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html> 	
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 30 11:00:32 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:00:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director,
	Diesat 89
References: <200707300843.l6U8h7KP011490@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<46ADFA98.3070601@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <001a01c7d2ba$60f04ea0$80ad3252@ANNY>

Yes, I agree. I remember watching his movies one after the other, and if I 
had them here now, I would start all over again. Great sensitive work 
carried out by a man.

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, 
Diesat 89


> Ingmar Bergman was such a rite of passage for me. His movies were among 
> the first grownup aesthetic experiences I discovered on my own, and I 
> still watch The Seventh Seal regularly.
>
>
> anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
>>
>> The New York Times <http://www.nytimes.com/>E-mail This 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=TopRight-EmailThis&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02b-nyt5-511278&ad=once_88x31_Nowplaying.gif&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchlight%2Ecom%2Fonce%2F>
>> *This page was sent to you by: * anny.ballardini at tin.it
>>
>> *INTERNATIONAL * | July 30, 2007
>> * Ingmar Bergman, Swedish Director, Dies at 89 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Obit-Bergman.html?ex=1186459200&en=3a93fdab71729f65&ei=5070&emc=eta1>*
>> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>> Ingmar Bergman, one of the greatest directors in motion picture history, 
>> died today, Swedish news reports said.
>>
>>
>> Most E-mailed
>> 1. Six Killers | Cancer: Cancer Patients, Lost in a Maze of Uneven Care 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/health/29Cancer.html?ex=1186459200&en=0e98474bf6711498&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 2. In the ?60s, a Future Candidate Poured Her Heart Out in Letters 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/politics/29letter.html?ex=1186459200&en=8e91834e5763c443&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 3. Handmade Alabama Quilts Find Fame and Controversy 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/29quilt.html?ex=1186459200&en=eb3b816a15312247&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 4. The Nation: Sending Back the Doctor?s Bill 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/weekinreview/29berenson.html?ex=1186459200&en=d41ea9e9a0257fc7&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>> 5. Certain Degrees Now Cost More at Public Universities 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/education/29tuition.html?ex=1186459200&en=c16cf6293fcbb65e&ei=5070&emc=eta1>
>>
>> ? Go to Complete List 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/gst/mostemailed.html?type=1>
>>
>> Advertisement
>>
>> *SUNSHINE*
>> >From Danny Boyle The director of Trainspotting and 28 Days Later
>> In Select Theatres July 20
>> Click here to watch trailer 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine> 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&page=www.nytimes.com/aponline/world&pos=Center1&camp=foxsearch2007-emailtools02e-nyt5-511278&ad=SUN_120x60_NPjpg.html&goto=http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sunshine>
>>
>>
>>
>> Copyright 2007 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The New 
>> York Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> | Privacy Policy 
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From screwzbaran  Mon Jul 30 17:46:03 2007
From: screwzbaran (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:46:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: FULCRUM's New MySpace Page & Blog
In-Reply-To: <8C98582939D1A0E-12D8-24C0@webmail-da02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <W298922973930321182530222@webmail8>
	<8C98582939D1A0E-12D8-24C0@webmail-da02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0707301446x428282f7k3e2d0890604a4ef0@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070730/ap_en_ot/bad_poet


On 6/25/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fulcrum Annual
> Bcc: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:37 pm
> Subject: FULCRUM's New MySpace Page & Blog
>
> FULCRUM: an annual of poetry and aesthetics
> now has a brand-new profile and blog on MySpace:
> http://www.myspace.com/fulcrumpoetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"What is defeat in life?  It is not merely making a mistake; defeat means
giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.  What is true success in
life?  True success means winning in your battle with yourself.  Those who
persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are
winners in life, for they have won over their weaknesses."
- Daisaku Ikeda
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From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 31 05:41:59 2007
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:41:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Who's Minding the Mind?
Message-ID: <200707310941.l6V9fxKP012311@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

This page was sent to you by: anny.ballardini at tin.it.

It is all the ventral pallidum's fault if you ended up buying all that junk instead of bread and butter, :-)


HEALTH / MENTAL HEALTH & BEHAVIOR | July 31, 2007
Who's Minding the Mind?
By BENEDICT CAREY
The subconscious brain is more active, independent and purposeful than once thought. Sometimes it takes charge. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/health/psychology/31subl.html?ex=1186545600&en=f6d3a2c40ccbd09b&ei=5070&emc=eta1






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ABOUT THIS E-MAIL
This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service.  For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com.

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Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
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From halvard  Tue Jul 31 11:04:11 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:04:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)
Message-ID: <70BEAB4E-6D7E-413A-9E51-B60A4007FDFC@earthlink.net>


"Context is everything that content is not."
                         --Anon.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html



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From jforjames  Tue Jul 31 15:18:26 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:18:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heraclitus of New Hampshire
Message-ID: <8C9A1BEB460CADB-C20-6C9C@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>


http://newcriterion.com:81/archives/25/06/the-heraclitus-of-new-hampshire/

The Heraclitus of New Hampshire
By Eric Ormsby

Buy the book
The Notebooks of Robert Frost


Not surprisingly for ?one acquainted with the night,? Robert Frost cultivated a lifelong penchant for dark sayings. These sayings included aphorisms and maxims, apothegms and proverbs, wise saws and the occasional bon mot, alongside interjections, exclamations, and guffaws, interrupted thoughts and broken utterances. They were dark because they riddled, sometimes as much by their sound as by their content. Many, of course, made their way into his finest poems. ?Good fences make good neighbors? 


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From jforjames  Tue Jul 31 15:33:01 2007
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:33:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Bellows reviewed
Message-ID: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.cprw.com/Houlihan/bellows.htm
As Reviewed By:
Joan Houlihan
Pretty Pieces 


Why Speak? by Nathaniel Bellows. W.W. Norton, 2007. 110 pages.? 
? 
?
Why speak? A good question. But this debut collection provokes more specific questions: In what way are these poems not short, short, stories? What governs their line breaks? Where is the power of trope, concision, sound, rhythm, the one right image that radiates from an emotional center? What drives these poems other than the descriptive, sometimes merely competent, writing of literary fiction?? 
?


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From halvard  Tue Jul 31 16:26:30 2007
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:26:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Bellows reviewed
In-Reply-To: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9A1C0BE2F4D6F-C20-6DC8@WEBMAIL-MB02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8E9B50DA-21F5-4769-A1F6-888590DD686D@earthlink.net>

Please, one good reason to read Joan Houlihan?
Oh, yeah, because she's there.

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html


On Jul 31, 2007, at 2:33 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> http://www.cprw.com/Houlihan/bellows.htm
> As Reviewed By:
> Joan Houlihan
> Pretty Pieces
>
> Why Speak? by Nathaniel Bellows. W.W. Norton, 2007. 110 pages.
>
>
> Why speak? A good question. But this debut collection provokes more  
> specific questions: In what way are these poems not short, short,  
> stories? What governs their line breaks? Where is the power of  
> trope, concision, sound, rhythm, the one right image that radiates  
> from an emotional center? What drives these poems other than the  
> descriptive, sometimes merely competent, writing of literary fiction?
>
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's  
> free from AOL at AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 31 16:46:13 2007
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:46:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)
References: <70BEAB4E-6D7E-413A-9E51-B60A4007FDFC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001501c7d3b3$d5eec430$a5ad3252@ANNY>

I met Michelangelo Antonioni. He was on a wheelchair. The exhausted I was I leaned my head on the seat in front (for a minute) and fell sound asleep. Woke up at the clapping of hands at the end of his movie with an horizontal cut in my forehead. Probably everybody noticed - first me falling asleep and then my face at the exit since there were only few people. It was a retrospective dedicated to Antonioni. His wife acted as if she was his nurse - even if he had a nurse, he was physically disastered. Among the cinema monsters (Bergman, Pasolini, the great Visconti) he was the one I less understood, even if I was privileged in meeting him and in witnessing his work from the very first "seats" I thought they were boring. My negligence probably, and /or incapacity. I anyhow feel a little lost, less protected. And terribly sorry - very sad. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:04 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Michelangelo Antonioni (1912-2007)




  "Context is everything that content is not."
                          --Anon.


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html








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From JforJames  Tue Jul 31 19:29:03 2007
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:29:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ozymadias and me
Message-ID: <ca6.155d72ed.33e11fbf@aol.com>

 
Atoll Halo 

The seaplane put down  
in an aquamarine lagoon,  
ringed by an atoll reef. 
The small island inside 
was a treeless mound of  
rounded stone, blazing white  
at midday. The island thought  
at first to be a worn dome  
of congealed lava, but divers  
exploring around the island  
discovered it to be the bald pate  
of an immense statuary god,  
sunk hundreds of feet  
below the waves, body 
a limestone home 
to countless species 
of fish and anemone 
that worshipped  
around its torso,  
knee-deep in coral, 
feet buried in silt  
become  clay.




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