[New-Poetry] ideology defs.

[Anny Ballardini]

Philosophy, as we use the word, is a fight against the fascination which forms of expression exert 

upon us.

Ludwig Wittgenstein
    --The Blue Book


 

Poetry, as we use the word, is a surrender to the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us.


James Finnegan



Ideology, as we use the work, is a ....



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] ideology defs.


>I think what the "internally consistent" piece of that definition is maybe just an overly strong wording for something that ideologies generally exhibit, that is, some sort of logic or cohesiveness that holds the ideas together somewhat systematically. although the "somewhat" caveat there is important and should not be over looked.
> 
> for example, i have for many years been fascinated by the cult of lyndon larouche in that their ideology, while being incoherent as well as rationally inconsistent, never the less forms the better part of a worldview that does have its own internal logic, albeit one that is very much different from what Buffy the Vampire Slayer once aptly described as "our Earth logic."
> 
> which is of course the danger you encounter as soon as you start playing the definition game. Two or more people begin with a word that people are using to say similar but slightly different things. All parties then offer their own definition for the word which are then compared against eachother. Faced with nothing to choose between the definitions other than pragmatism or some intellectual bias, words used in the definition are then transmuted into further points of discussion with their own definitions being offered up, and on down the chain. The end result is usually either a well defined piece of jargon that has little bearing on the topic originally under discussion or, in the worst case scenario, a piece of patent nonsense. While both items have their uses, neither are particularly conducive to interpersonal understanding, which it should be recalled, is the stated goal of most persons 
> attempting to play the definition game successfully. Many players, of course, have ulterior motives.
> 
> I will say, however, that the marxist definition of ideology that alex offered as a pejorative seems to be inherently self-critical and of limited use as a result.
> 
> ah wittgenstein...
> 
> 
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007, Skip Fox wrote:
> 
>> I like Bob's definition of ideology as well (though disagree, etc.) and as
>> well bumped over "internally consistent." I think the "internally" is night
>> (the box), but "consistency" overly general if it was to include much of
>> what I know ideologies consist of, including religious, political,
>> theoretical ones. (In fact, that's one place Derrida is of fine use. . . .
>> I'm never against the rational if it's not at the exclusion of all else,
>> after all, it's another tool for "knowing," even if we mean that knowing to
>> include a wide range of states, mostly cognizant; for instance
>> proprioception is also a means of knowing of which we are often unaware).
>>
>> Anyway, Bob's definition is consistent with the awareness of him that I am
>> building. Or, I should say, it's not so much "consistent" as it further adds
>> to a my view of him as very interesting and intelligent artistic
>> intelligence. So I liked the definition very much as it was his.
>>
>> skip
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Dickow
>> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:35 PM
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] ideology defs.
>>
>> Bob,
>> Geuss actually provides a quite diplomatic survey of
>> definitions of the term "ideology"; the one I provide
>> is of more or less direct Marxist provenance, and is
>> pejorative where other definitions are neutral. Your
>> own definition is included by Geuss, in one of the
>> neutral (and now very widespread) definitions:
>> however, I think it's worth noting that a given "body
>> of concepts about some field" does not necessarily
>> entail "internal consistency": I would say discourse
>> on culturally determined differences between genders
>> and/or sexes constitutes an "ideology" with certain
>> (relatively permeable) boundaries: but I certainly
>> would not claim that that ideology is "internally
>> consistent!"
>> Sorry to hear that about Runaway Spoon, since there
>> were some good books to be read in there, it seemed to
>> me.
>> Amicalement,
>> Alex
>>
>> Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>> Alexander Dickow wrote:
>>> "he was looking for a term to
>>> describe how one can be so far inside a literary
>>> tradition (scholarly,
>>> religious, philosophical, etc) that one can no
>> longer
>>> distinguish the
>>> tradition from 'reality'."
>>>
>>> Wouldn't the term he's looking for be "ideology"?
>>> Defined as the false belief that received ideas or
>>> values are "natural"? (cf. e.g. Geuss, _The Idea of
>>> Critical Theory_).
>>> Amicalement,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>> I would never define "ideology" as you do here, Alex.
>> Many ideologies
>> are founded outside received ideas.  I prefer
>> "ideology" to be, as most
>>
>> dictionaries have it in their primary definitions of
>> it, "an internally
>>
>> consistent body of concepts about some field."  This,
>> of course, is not
>>
>> what people who want to be able to believe anything
>> they want to could
>> like, so they have made it into an insult.
>>
>> Of course, there are bad ideologies--mainly the ones
>> that are
>> internally
>> consistent but not consistent with reality.
>> Ideologues are them what
>> believes in such ideologies.
>>
>> --Bob G., ideologist but not, I hope, an ideologue
>>
>>
>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/
>>
>>  les mots! ah quel désert à la fin
>>  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet
>>
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