From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr  1 07:07:37 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 07:07:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
Message-ID: <460F9279.3020105@opus40.org>

Emily Bussbaum in the NY Times on Garrison's new book:

As the many fans of her first book would attest, the strength of 
Garrison?s poems is their ordinariness, in both language and subject 
matter. They are not pretentious. They speak to the reader directly: 
this is a conversation with a likable next-door neighbor rather than a 
scary visitation from a bipolar goddess. But this ordinariness is also 
Garrison?s weakness, and in ?The Second Child? it can be glaring. Many 
of these poems are simply anecdotes of children being adorably profound: 
asking questions about death, struggling with the concept of infinity. 
Elsewhere, Garrison strives to celebrate domestic life but settles 
instead for clich?, as in one poem where she longs for more ?voices that 
pierce / my heart utterly.?

...

It?s unfair, of course, to expect Garrison to be like Plath. She has her 
own gifts and an audience sure to appreciate them. In real life, I?d 
rather have a likable next-door neighbor than a bipolar goddess as a 
confidante. But in writing? Give me the strange mother over the sweet 
one any day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/books/review/Nussbaum.t.html?ref=review



-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr  1 07:30:18 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 07:30:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And Elaine Equi
Message-ID: <460F97CA.4040209@opus40.org>

?Ripple Effect? offers a broad sampling of Equi?s career, 159 poems, 
proving her as capable of a memorable four-line epigram as she is of an 
elegant pantoum, jokey self-interview, surreal meditation on the color 
yellow or tender lyric sequence. The book showcases a sensibility 
troubled by what happens around her, but capable of being charmed by 
?the exotic way / everything normal / begins looking / in order to / win 
you back.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/books/review/skloot.t.html?ref=review

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  1 10:13:45 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 09:13:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
References: <460F9279.3020105@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <000301c77467$f5fef9d0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I'll take the "sweet one" over the "strange mother" even in writing.  Sorry, 
Emily--your preference for the bi-polar goddess is weird and a tad 
unbelievable. (No pun intended.)

Jai Guru!
Linda Sue
________________________________
Blessings,
Linda Sue Grimes
Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 6:07 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison


> Emily Bussbaum in the NY Times on Garrison's new book:
>
> As the many fans of her first book would attest, the strength of Garrison?s 
> poems is their ordinariness, in both language and subject matter. They are 
> not pretentious. They speak to the reader directly: this is a conversation 
> with a likable next-door neighbor rather than a scary visitation from a 
> bipolar goddess. But this ordinariness is also Garrison?s weakness, and in 
> ?The Second Child? it can be glaring. Many of these poems are simply 
> anecdotes of children being adorably profound: asking questions about 
> death, struggling with the concept of infinity. Elsewhere, Garrison 
> strives to celebrate domestic life but settles instead for clich?, as in 
> one poem where she longs for more ?voices that pierce / my heart utterly.?
>
> ...
>
> It?s unfair, of course, to expect Garrison to be like Plath. She has her 
> own gifts and an audience sure to appreciate them. In real life, I?d 
> rather have a likable next-door neighbor than a bipolar goddess as a 
> confidante. But in writing? Give me the strange mother over the sweet one 
> any day.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/books/review/Nussbaum.t.html?ref=review
>
>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From editor at pavementsaw.org  Sun Apr  1 13:11:42 2007
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Theory of Orange
In-Reply-To: <200704011600.l31G04cP032709@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <249153.31255.qm@web83819.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Theory of Orange   by Rachel M. Simon
from Pavement Saw Press
ISBN: 978-1-886350-45-8
  is now available
   
  "Improvisation" is a quintessential Poem of Our Moment: fast moving and declarative, wobbling on the balance beam between associative and dissociative, somewhat absurdist, and, indeed, cerebral. Much talent and skill are evident in it's making, in its pacing and management of gaps, the hints and sound bites which keep the reader reaching forward for the lynchpin of coherence. One admirable aspect of the poem is the way it seems capable of incorporating anything... even as the poem implies a world without sequence, the poem itself has no consequence, no center of gravity, no body, no assertion of emotional value.

--POETRY

   
  Hip, funny, moving and at times bizarre, this first outing from the Yonkers, N.Y.?based Simon stitches together the elegiac with the entertaining, the fragmentarily outr? with the clearly autobiographical: they make an attractive weave. The poems (almost all shorter than one page) include, as she phrases it, "getting-to-know-you-games," multiple tributes to summer camp and "family funerals." Several elegies appear to lament the friend and writer, dead at 21, to whom Simon dedicates the book. "Neither bitter nor embittered,/ non-eponymous but partially self-referential," Simon is also partial to self-portraits composed in apparently unrelated sentences; to in-jokes against writing-workshop platitudes ("No surprise for the writer,/ no surprise behind door number three there is never a car"); and to baffling one-line quips ("My blood is completely cheese"). She can wring comedy from nostalgia, and nostalgia from the detritus of modern childhood: "I hoped that/ by sending a
 box of twinkies/ you'd remember to remember me." Yet her flirtatious advertisements for herself double as postmodern queries into the dangerous culture of advertising, where men and women risk disappearing unless they find something new to say. (Feb.) 
   
  ------Publishers Weekly
   
     
In Theory of Orange, Rachel Simon aims her clear-eyed gaze at life?s odd, irresolvable circumstances and ?tells it slant.?  Simon?s poems sparkle with freshness, verve, and above all, humanity.  Understated wit, wry intelligence, and honed language are hallmarks of this decidedly original first collection.

--Joan Larkin
    

  Book can be ordered using paypal direct from Pavement Saw at:   
http://www.pavementsaw.org/books/orange.htm
   
  or from the SPD website
  http://www.spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=9781886350458
   
  or by calling 1-800-869-7553
   




Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 14:30:53 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:30:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alexander receives inaugural Jackson Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <d0c.c9a55cf.3341545d@aol.com>

_http://www.pw.org/pr_2007_jackson_poetry_prize.html_ 
(http://www.pw.org/pr_2007_jackson_poetry_prize.html) 
 

ELIZABETH ALEXANDER
TO RECEIVE INAUGURAL JACKSON POETRY PRIZE  
NEW YORK, March 16, 2007 ? Poets & Writers, Inc. is pleased to announce  that 
Elizabeth Alexander is the inaugural recipient of the Jackson Poetry Prize.  
The $50,000 prize honors an American poet of exceptional talent who has  
published at least one book of recognized literary merit but has not yet  received 
major national acclaim. The award is designed to provide what all poets  need?
time and the encouragement to write. 
 
Ms. Alexander was selected by three esteemed judges: the poets Lucille  
Clifton, Stephen Dunn, and Jane Hirshfield. There was no application  process.




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From editor at pavementsaw.org  Sun Apr  1 21:29:12 2007
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 18:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good reads
Message-ID: <824072.86332.qm@web83828.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I have been having some fun with a newish website called Goodreads
  which is like a myspace specifically focused on reading books, 
  if you would like to join and be my friend (I love that term on these things)
  below is the link--
   
   
  Checkout my reading list on Goodreads - where you can see what your friends are reading.
  http://www.goodreads.com/friend/i?i=LTM2MDcwNjE5ODE6MjU4%0A
   


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr  2 01:12:07 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:12:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] North
Message-ID: <002201c774e5$75ea2340$2fab3252@ANNY>

>From Joel Weishaus:

North-3 Text-2

http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/North-3/text-2.htm


Introduction:
http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/Intro.htm



-Joel

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr  2 01:46:38 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:46:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] spring poetry morning Monday
Message-ID: <003101c774ea$4880fa50$2fab3252@ANNY>

Poem: "The Changed Man" by Robert Phillips, from Spinach Days. ? The Johns Hopkins University Press. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) 

The Changed Man 

If you were to hear me imitating Pavarotti
in the shower every morning, you'd know
how much you have changed my life.

If you were to see me stride across the park,
waving to strangers, then you would know
I am a changed man-like Scrooge

awakened from his bad dreams feeling feather-
light, angel-happy, laughing the father
of a long line of bright laughs-

"It is still not too late to change my life!"
It is changed. Me, who felt short-changed.
Because of you I no longer hate my body.

Because of you I buy new clothes.
Because of you I'm a warrior of joy.
Because of you and me. Drop by

this Saturday morning and discover me
fiercely pulling weeds gladly, dedicated
as a born-again gardener.

Drop by on Sunday-I'll Turtlewax
your sky-blue sports car, no sweat. I'll greet 
enemies with a handshake, forgive debtors

with a papal largesse. It's all because 
of you. Because of you and me,
I've become one changed man.


Literary and Historical Notes:

It's the birthday of the Italian writer Giacomo Casanova, (books by this author) born in Venice (1725).




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Apr  2 16:01:05 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:01:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joel Lipman, VisPo
Message-ID: <8C94378C8365E92-63C-8E01@WEBMAIL-RB11.sysops.aol.com>

Esp. for Bob...
 
http://www.woodlandpattern.org/gallery/exhibits.shtml
Joel Lipman: Origins of Poetry
Stamp Art, PoeMvelopes, & Visual Poems
ExhibitionNew
Opening Reception?April 1, 1-4pm
Reading & Gallery Talk with Joel Lipman: 2pm FREE
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Apr  2 17:24:24 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:24:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joel Lipman, VisPo
References: 8C94378C8365E92-63C-8E01@WEBMAIL-RB11.sysops.aol.com
Message-ID: <004201c7756d$4b3a3760$74fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Esp. for Bob...

  http://www.woodlandpattern.org/gallery/exhibits.shtml
  Joel Lipman: Origins of Poetry
  Stamp Art, PoeMvelopes, & Visual Poems
  ExhibitionNew
  Opening Reception?April 1, 1-4pm
  Reading & Gallery Talk with Joel Lipman: 2pm FREE

  Hey, thanks, Jim.  I really like Lipman's work--although it's about as far from what I do as a visual poet as, well, Clark Coolidge's work is from Richard Wilbur's.  (Coolidge is one of the more difficult of the language poets.)  

  --Bob G.
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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 11:55:24 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:55:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <000301c77467$f5fef9d0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <460F9279.3020105@opus40.org>
	<000301c77467$f5fef9d0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704030855p31810d9dy511aff5310c34f13@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/1/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'll take the "sweet one" over the "strange mother" even in
> writing.  Sorry,
> Emily--your preference for the bi-polar goddess is weird and a tad
> unbelievable. (No pun intended.)


Call me weird then.  I will always vote for the strange mother-- and yes
even the bi-polar goddess, especially in art and writing.  Sweet ones with
their doilies and cookies-- feh.  I'll eat the cookies but I don't want to
read their poems.

Suzanne
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Apr  3 12:31:33 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0704030855p31810d9dy511aff5310c34f13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It's easy to romanticize behavior and attitudes in poetry that we would
typically shy away from in life, isn't it?  In any case, there's often a
difference between what we like on the page and what we like in "reality."

The challenges of domestic poetry like Garrison's are clear enough, I think.
At some point a poem hewing close to mundane experience risks becoming
merely a mundane poem.  That said, I like the effort, and am temperamentally
in favor of what Garrison is up to, even if she doesn't always score.  The
poetry of extremity (e.g. Dylan Thomas, Sylvia Plath) lost most of its
glamor for me long ago.

Philip Larkin is typically sharp on this theme:


 
Poetry of Departures
 
Sometimes you hear, fifth-hand,
As epitaph:
He chucked up everything
And just cleared off,
And always the voice will sound
Certain you approve
This audacious, purifying,
Elemental move. 
 
And they are right, I think.
We all hate home
And having to be there:
I detest my room,
Its specially-chosen junk,
The good books, the good bed,
And my life, in perfect order:
So to hear it said 
 
He walked out on the whole crowd
Leaves me flushed and stirred,
Like Then she undid her dress
Or Take that you bastard;
Surely I can, if he did?
And that helps me stay
Sober and industrious,
But I'd go today, 
 
Yes, swagger the nut-strewn roads,
Crouch in the fo'c'sle
Stubbly with goodness, if
It weren't so artificial,
Such a deliberate step backwards
To create an object:
Books; china; a life
Reprehensibly perfect.

--Philip Larkin


On 4/3/07 10:55 AM, "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 4/1/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'll take the "sweet one" over the "strange mother" even in writing.  Sorry,
>> Emily--your preference for the bi-polar goddess is weird and a tad
>> unbelievable. (No pun intended.)
> 
> Call me weird then.  I will always vote for the strange mother-- and yes even
> the bi-polar goddess, especially in art and writing.  Sweet ones with their
> doilies and cookies-- feh.  I'll eat the cookies but I don't want to read
> their poems. 
> 
> Suzanne
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr  3 13:19:47 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:19:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>

Well, we do look to literature to be our guide to the abyss that we hope 
to only glimpse in our lifetimes, and for that flash of the unknown, I'd 
go to Plath or Thomas sooner than Garrison or Judith Viorst. I wouldn't 
go to Plath for a parenting guide, but I probably wouldn't go to 
Garrison either.

David Graham wrote:
> It's easy to romanticize behavior and attitudes in poetry that we 
> would typically shy away from in life, isn't it?  In any case, there's 
> often a difference between what we like on the page and what we like 
> in "reality."  
>
> The challenges of domestic poetry like Garrison's are clear enough, I 
> think.  At some point a poem hewing close to mundane experience risks 
> becoming merely a mundane poem.  That said, I like the effort, and am 
> temperamentally in favor of what Garrison is up to, even if she 
> doesn't always score.  The poetry of extremity (e.g. Dylan Thomas, 
> Sylvia Plath) lost most of its glamor for me long ago.  
>
> Philip Larkin is typically sharp on this theme:
>
>
>  
> Poetry of Departures
>  
> Sometimes you hear, fifth-hand,
> As epitaph:
> He chucked up everything
> And just cleared off,
> And always the voice will sound
> Certain you approve
> This audacious, purifying,
> Elemental move.
>  
> And they are right, I think.
> We all hate home
> And having to be there:
> I detest my room,
> Its specially-chosen junk,
> The good books, the good bed,
> And my life, in perfect order:
> So to hear it said
>  
> He walked out on the whole crowd
> Leaves me flushed and stirred,
> Like Then she undid her dress
> Or Take that you bastard;
> Surely I can, if he did?
> And that helps me stay
> Sober and industrious,
> But I'd go today,
>  
> Yes, swagger the nut-strewn roads,
> Crouch in the fo'c'sle
> Stubbly with goodness, if
> It weren't so artificial,
> Such a deliberate step backwards
> To create an object:
> Books; china; a life
> Reprehensibly perfect.
>
> --Philip Larkin
>
>
> On 4/3/07 10:55 AM, "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On 4/1/07, *Linda Sue Grimes* <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         I'll take the "sweet one" over the "strange mother" even in
>         writing.  Sorry,
>         Emily--your preference for the bi-polar goddess is weird and a tad
>         unbelievable. (No pun intended.)
>
>
>     Call me weird then.  I will always vote for the strange mother--
>     and yes even the bi-polar goddess, especially in art and writing.
>      Sweet ones with their doilies and cookies-- feh.  I'll eat the
>     cookies but I don't want to read their poems.
>
>     Suzanne
>      
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 14:01:04 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:01:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>
References: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu> <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704031101n59c8f0cex345f98a3caa46f41@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/3/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> Well, we do look to literature to be our guide to the abyss that we hope
> to only glimpse in our lifetimes, and for that flash of the unknown, I'd
> go to Plath or Thomas sooner than Garrison or Judith Viorst. I wouldn't
> go to Plath for a parenting guide, but I probably wouldn't go to
> Garrison either.


I don't particularly care about angst, nor do I romanticize those "dark"
places-- Plath is just a  better and more vital poet in every way.  She is
proof that one can be a mother without sacrificing the bite and fierceness
of one's language.  Even her most maternal poems avoid easy predictable
sentiments.

I am biased though-- I generally don't get much out of work that can be
described as sweet, domestic, sentimental, or too anchored in the backyard.
I feel like this has been waaaaaay overdone in the SofQ and it needs a
break.  But that's just me.

I agree-- I wouldn't want Plath or Garrison as a mother. One is too creepy,
the other too syrupy.  My own mother bore a striking resemblance to the
"Soccer Mom Ho" currently taking YouTube by storm (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqF1izJnK7M) with the exception that she
didn't rap (darn!). I wouldn't have it any other way.  :-)


Suzanne
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr  3 14:08:39 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:08:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0704031101n59c8f0cex345f98a3caa46f41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu> <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>
	<aa458fec0704031101n59c8f0cex345f98a3caa46f41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46129827.2070506@opus40.org>

You don't have to romanticize the dark places to know that they exist, 
and the best writing doesn't.

Suzanne Burns wrote:
>
>
> On 4/3/07, *TheOldMole* <Opus40-01 at opus40.org 
> <mailto:Opus40-01 at opus40.org>> wrote:
>
>     Well, we do look to literature to be our guide to the abyss that
>     we hope
>     to only glimpse in our lifetimes, and for that flash of the
>     unknown, I'd
>     go to Plath or Thomas sooner than Garrison or Judith Viorst. I
>     wouldn't
>     go to Plath for a parenting guide, but I probably wouldn't go to
>     Garrison either.
>
>
> I don't particularly care about angst, nor do I romanticize those 
> "dark" places-- Plath is just a  better and more vital poet in every 
> way.  She is proof that one can be a mother without sacrificing the 
> bite and fierceness of one's language.  Even her most maternal poems 
> avoid easy predictable sentiments. 
>
> I am biased though-- I generally don't get much out of work that can 
> be described as sweet, domestic, sentimental, or too anchored in the 
> backyard. I feel like this has been waaaaaay overdone in the SofQ and 
> it needs a break.  But that's just me.
>
> I agree-- I wouldn't want Plath or Garrison as a mother. One is too 
> creepy, the other too syrupy.  My own mother bore a striking 
> resemblance to the "Soccer Mom Ho" currently taking YouTube by storm ( 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqF1izJnK7M) with the exception that 
> she didn't rap (darn!). I wouldn't have it any other way.  :-)
>
>
> Suzanne
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 14:15:19 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:15:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
In-Reply-To: <46129827.2070506@opus40.org>
References: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu> <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>
	<aa458fec0704031101n59c8f0cex345f98a3caa46f41@mail.gmail.com>
	<46129827.2070506@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704031115q554a2f05r380393ad275e16f1@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/3/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> You don't have to romanticize the dark places to know that they exist,
> and the best writing doesn't.



Well said.  :-)
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Apr  3 14:47:16 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:47:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
In-Reply-To: <46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <C2380B64.F2C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Good point, Tad.  Still, I'm not really looking for any guide to the abyss
anymore, if I ever was.  But if I were, I might prefer someone like Robert
Frost, who neither sentimentalizes nor shies away from horrors, and whose
work demonstrates  that tragedy can indeed be found in the backyard.  For
that matter, so does Larkin's.

Plath is a powerful, amazing poet who no longer speaks much to me, I admit,
as I also admit that the failing is no doubt mine.

But Plath's not really a good example of what I was groping to say--someone
more like Kerouac or Bukowski, probably, would be examples of a certain sort
of adolescent fascination with "the abyss" that long ago lost whatever
lustre it might have held for me.

Poor Deborah Garrison is sadly out-gunned in any discussion involving the
likes of Plath, of course--but then, so am I.   And she's quite a few steps
up from Judith Viorst, I would contend.


On 4/3/07 12:19 PM, "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:

> Well, we do look to literature to be our guide to the abyss that we hope
> to only glimpse in our lifetimes, and for that flash of the unknown, I'd
> go to Plath or Thomas sooner than Garrison or Judith Viorst. I wouldn't
> go to Plath for a parenting guide, but I probably wouldn't go to
> Garrison either.
> 
> David Graham wrote:
>> It's easy to romanticize behavior and attitudes in poetry that we
>> would typically shy away from in life, isn't it?  In any case, there's
>> often a difference between what we like on the page and what we like
>> in "reality."  
>> 
>> The challenges of domestic poetry like Garrison's are clear enough, I
>> think.  At some point a poem hewing close to mundane experience risks
>> becoming merely a mundane poem.  That said, I like the effort, and am
>> temperamentally in favor of what Garrison is up to, even if she
>> doesn't always score.  The poetry of extremity (e.g. Dylan Thomas,
>> Sylvia Plath) lost most of its glamor for me long ago.
>> 
>> Philip Larkin is typically sharp on this theme:
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> Poetry of Departures
>>  
>> Sometimes you hear, fifth-hand,
>> As epitaph:
>> He chucked up everything
>> And just cleared off,
>> And always the voice will sound
>> Certain you approve
>> This audacious, purifying,
>> Elemental move.
>>  
>> And they are right, I think.
>> We all hate home
>> And having to be there:
>> I detest my room,
>> Its specially-chosen junk,
>> The good books, the good bed,
>> And my life, in perfect order:
>> So to hear it said
>>  
>> He walked out on the whole crowd
>> Leaves me flushed and stirred,
>> Like Then she undid her dress
>> Or Take that you bastard;
>> Surely I can, if he did?
>> And that helps me stay
>> Sober and industrious,
>> But I'd go today,
>>  
>> Yes, swagger the nut-strewn roads,
>> Crouch in the fo'c'sle
>> Stubbly with goodness, if
>> It weren't so artificial,
>> Such a deliberate step backwards
>> To create an object:
>> Books; china; a life
>> Reprehensibly perfect.
>> 
>> --Philip Larkin
>> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue Apr  3 15:48:30 2007
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:48:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso8859-1?q?E=B7ratio?= 8 Redux + Call
Message-ID: <200704031948.l33JmfQh018702@mail26.atl.registeredsite.com>

E?ratio 8 is online.

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

With poetry by:  Anne Gorrick, Marci Nelligan, Donald Wellman, Jody Porter, 
Nicholas Manning, Chad Sweeney, Christine Hamm, MTC Cronin, Amanda 
Laughtland, David Chikhladze, Jonathan Minton, and Scott Wilkerson

E?ratio is reading for poetry for issue 9, the Spring 2007 issue.

Please see the Contact Page for guidelines before sending.


http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

Edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino




From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 16:02:05 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:02:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
In-Reply-To: <C2380B64.F2C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>

I'd hate think that sane and safe domestic lives weren't fit for poetry. I hope that's not the case. Part of the literary feminism's initiative was to allow women room to make art from subject matter presented in their domestic lives and family relations. To take away from men the ability to deem what was 'acceptable subject matter' for literature and art-making. 
 
I think with some mastery almost any life experience can be made into art, the good, the bad and ugly. In some ways the readership for the ugly is just another form of 'rubbernecking' that you get on the highway passing a bad wreck. Didn't Auden say something like confessional poets were like beggars displaying their open sores for small coins?
 
I'm very delighted when I encounter a poem that seems to emate from joy alone. It's hard to 'make a joyful noise' poem. There are many more 'funny poems' than poems that come out of pure pleasure and happy times. Easier to write those elegies of loss and grief's dirges.
 
I often think of the artist Morandi when this subject comes up. He managed to paint bottles most of his life and yet make of them something greater and more interesting than just bottles. Strange, peopleless cities one might call his still lifes. Or is that Morandi's art is interesting because his subject matter was so simple and his attention obsessively small, just paintings of bottles after all.
 
Finnegan
http://www.ursprache.blogspot.com/
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue Apr  3 16:08:56 2007
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:08:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dazzling Joel Lipman (at =?iso8859-1?q?E=B7ratio=29?=
Message-ID: <200704032009.l33K94Ra019891@mail20.atl.registeredsite.com>

Joel Lipman is a master.  Anybody interested, please follow these links to see 
his works at E?ratio (if the links don't fit, please paste them in?):

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/eidetics2.html#lipman

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/lipman.html 

I have the original paste-ups of these (not jpegs) and they are dazzling and 
suitable for framing.  I'm very proud to own them.  (Thank you, Joel!)  


Gregory




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Apr  3 17:45:25 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:45:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Garrison
References: <C237EB95.F2A5%grahamd@ripon.edu> 46128CB3.8000900@opus40.org
Message-ID: <007701c77639$64a8b560$1afad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

To me it's Our Town versus Finnegans Wake or Wagner's Ring.

--Bob G.



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr  3 16:44:44 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:44:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
References: <8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c77630$e9a71ee0$25ac3452@ANNY>

Thank you for mentioning Morandi. I went to see a very comprehensive show they dedicated to him in Bologna in 1990 (or around that time). The date is important because I was suffering from an inflammation of the sciatic nerve. I never suffered so much and I wished to die. These two friends passed by and wanted to take me to see Morandi's show. They convinced me and with the many kilometers by car, pills, wine, walking and what-have-you my unbearable pain disappeared _forever_ I would say. We were in one of these houses they call agri-tourists' homes in the country, slept there overnight.  
Morandi lived in the hinterland, rounded hills one after the other, during the summer yellow with burnt grass and hay. He spent his life at home with two sisters and during the war - before and after - painted bottles, bottles and bottles. His dedication to his work, his seriousness in facing life, I remember they rebuilt his room, a small bed similar to Van Gogh's. That is probably how you can become a master, by refining your sensitivity through the most monotonous life. Pessoa is another good example. 
But then Leonardo da Vinci breaks the rule, or Dante, or Caravaggio. There is no rule, as a matter of fact, there are accidents, incidents, there is genius, there is something but it is not the same for everybody.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss


  I'd hate think that sane and safe domestic lives weren't fit for poetry. I hope that's not the case. Part of the literary feminism's initiative was to allow women room to make art from subject matter presented in their domestic lives and family relations. To take away from men the ability to deem what was 'acceptable subject matter' for literature and art-making. 

  I think with some mastery almost any life experience can be made into art, the good, the bad and ugly. In some ways the readership for the ugly is just another form of 'rubbernecking' that you get on the highway passing a bad wreck. Didn't Auden say something like confessional poets were like beggars displaying their open sores for small coins?

  I'm very delighted when I encounter a poem that seems to emate from joy alone. It's hard to 'make a joyful noise' poem. There are many more 'funny poems' than poems that come out of pure pleasure and happy times. Easier to write those elegies of loss and grief's dirges.

  I often think of the artist Morandi when this subject comes up. He managed to paint bottles most of his life and yet make of them something greater and more interesting than just bottles. Strange, peopleless cities one might call his still lifes. Or is that Morandi's art is interesting because his subject matter was so simple and his attention obsessively small, just paintings of bottles after all.

  Finnegan
  http://www.ursprache.blogspot.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 16:49:55 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:49:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
In-Reply-To: <8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <C2380B64.F2C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704031349m6f5f7b05ndcd132e69c3ac563@mail.gmail.com>

Here are two Plath poems that come to mind.  She was no stranger to writing
about motherhood:

Balloons

Since Christmas they have lived with us,
Guileless and clear,
Oval soul-animals,
Taking up half the space,
Moving and rubbing on the silk

Invisible air drifts,
Giving a shriek and pop
When attacked, then scooting to rest, barely trembling.
Yellow cathead, blue fish--------
Such queer moons we live with

Instead of dead furniture!
Straw mats, white walls
And these traveling
Globes of thin air, red, green,
Delighting

The heart like wishes or free
Peacocks blessing
Old ground with a feather
Beaten in starry metals.
Your small

Brother is making
His balloon squeak like a cat.
Seeming to see
A funny pink world he might eat on the other side of it,
He bites,

Then sits
Back, fat jug
Contemplating a world clear as water.
A red
Shred in his little fist.


Metaphors

I'm a riddle in nine syllables,
An elephant, a ponderous house,
A melon strolling on two tendrils.
O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers!
This loaf's big with its yeasty rising.
Money's new-minted in this fat purse.
I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf.
I've eaten a bag of green apples,
Boarded the train there's no getting off.

Sylvia Plath
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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 16:54:21 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:54:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] ED
Message-ID: <002401c77632$413c9440$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

The phrase "eyes that gently touch" inspired a ballet, and is from an Emily Dickinson poem.  I cannot find it.  Anyone recognize it and know from which poem it is taken?

Thanks,
Linda Sue
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr  3 16:54:51 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:54:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
In-Reply-To: <C2380B64.F2C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C2380B64.F2C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4612BF1B.3080007@opus40.org>

Well, don't forget Hamlet, MacBeth and Lear - or Prospero - when you're 
looking for guided tours to the abyss. Or Dante. I don't think we ever 
should lose touch -- as artists -- with that side of ourselves that 
wants to pitch a tent somewhere in the dark night of the soul, and 
listen to the bats and chimeras gliding by. We wouldn't even need to 
hear about the red red robin that comes bob-bob-bobbin' along if we 
weren't acquainted with the night, and hadn't spent some time where he 
wasn't bob-bob-bobbin'.

David Graham wrote:
> Good point, Tad.  Still, I'm not really looking for any guide to the abyss
> anymore, if I ever was.  But if I were, I might prefer someone like Robert
> Frost, who neither sentimentalizes nor shies away from horrors, and whose
> work demonstrates  that tragedy can indeed be found in the backyard.  For
> that matter, so does Larkin's.
>
> Plath is a powerful, amazing poet who no longer speaks much to me, I admit,
> as I also admit that the failing is no doubt mine.
>
> But Plath's not really a good example of what I was groping to say--someone
> more like Kerouac or Bukowski, probably, would be examples of a certain sort
> of adolescent fascination with "the abyss" that long ago lost whatever
> lustre it might have held for me.
>
> Poor Deborah Garrison is sadly out-gunned in any discussion involving the
> likes of Plath, of course--but then, so am I.   And she's quite a few steps
> up from Judith Viorst, I would contend.
>
>
> On 4/3/07 12:19 PM, "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
>   
>> Well, we do look to literature to be our guide to the abyss that we hope
>> to only glimpse in our lifetimes, and for that flash of the unknown, I'd
>> go to Plath or Thomas sooner than Garrison or Judith Viorst. I wouldn't
>> go to Plath for a parenting guide, but I probably wouldn't go to
>> Garrison either.
>>
>> David Graham wrote:
>>     
>>> It's easy to romanticize behavior and attitudes in poetry that we
>>> would typically shy away from in life, isn't it?  In any case, there's
>>> often a difference between what we like on the page and what we like
>>> in "reality."  
>>>
>>> The challenges of domestic poetry like Garrison's are clear enough, I
>>> think.  At some point a poem hewing close to mundane experience risks
>>> becoming merely a mundane poem.  That said, I like the effort, and am
>>> temperamentally in favor of what Garrison is up to, even if she
>>> doesn't always score.  The poetry of extremity (e.g. Dylan Thomas,
>>> Sylvia Plath) lost most of its glamor for me long ago.
>>>
>>> Philip Larkin is typically sharp on this theme:
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> Poetry of Departures
>>>  
>>> Sometimes you hear, fifth-hand,
>>> As epitaph:
>>> He chucked up everything
>>> And just cleared off,
>>> And always the voice will sound
>>> Certain you approve
>>> This audacious, purifying,
>>> Elemental move.
>>>  
>>> And they are right, I think.
>>> We all hate home
>>> And having to be there:
>>> I detest my room,
>>> Its specially-chosen junk,
>>> The good books, the good bed,
>>> And my life, in perfect order:
>>> So to hear it said
>>>  
>>> He walked out on the whole crowd
>>> Leaves me flushed and stirred,
>>> Like Then she undid her dress
>>> Or Take that you bastard;
>>> Surely I can, if he did?
>>> And that helps me stay
>>> Sober and industrious,
>>> But I'd go today,
>>>  
>>> Yes, swagger the nut-strewn roads,
>>> Crouch in the fo'c'sle
>>> Stubbly with goodness, if
>>> It weren't so artificial,
>>> Such a deliberate step backwards
>>> To create an object:
>>> Books; china; a life
>>> Reprehensibly perfect.
>>>
>>> --Philip Larkin
>>>
>>>       
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Apr  3 18:58:53 2007
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:58:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Erratum du jour
Message-ID: <C5BB2E28-ED1B-4C0B-A0CA-C0ED01C452F7@earthlink.net>

 From Harper's Weekly today--

"The statement 'In New York City, someone stole the penis of a
chocolate Jesus' is not true; the source was a satire website that was
mistakenly thought to be a genuine news source. Harper's Weekly
apologizes for the error."

Hal

Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org



From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr  3 21:00:55 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:00:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guided tours of the abyss
In-Reply-To: <8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C94442160FB0A2-1750-1C40@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4612F8C7.80805@opus40.org>

Don'r you think joy always has a cost, or at least always exists in a 
more troubled context? One of the greatest expressions of pure physical 
joy I've ever seen is in the first Spiderman movie, the scene where 
Peter Parker first masters his newfound skills, and goes web-slinging up 
the canyons of Manhattan. And it's all the purer for being a momentary 
surcease in a life of trouble.

Or as Ron Swoboda said during the celebration of the '69 Mets' World 
Series victory. "This is the happiest moment of my life and it's also 
the saddest, because I can already feel it slipping away into memory."


jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> I'd hate think that sane and safe domestic lives weren't fit for 
> poetry. I hope that's not the case. Part of the literary feminism's 
> initiative was to allow women room to make art from subject matter 
> presented in their domestic lives and family relations. To take away 
> from men the ability to deem what was 'acceptable subject matter' for 
> literature and art-making.
>  
> I think with some mastery almost any life experience can be made into 
> art, the good, the bad and ugly. In some ways the readership for the 
> ugly is just another form of 'rubbernecking' that you get on the 
> highway passing a bad wreck. Didn't Auden say something 
> like confessional poets were like beggars displaying their open sores 
> for small coins?
>  
> I'm very delighted when I encounter a poem that seems to emate from 
> joy alone. It's hard to 'make a joyful noise' poem. There are many 
> more 'funny poems' than poems that come out of pure pleasure and happy 
> times. Easier to write those elegies of loss and grief's dirges.
>  
> I often think of the artist Morandi when this subject comes up. He 
> managed to paint bottles most of his life and yet make of them 
> something greater and more interesting than just bottles. Strange, 
> peopleless cities one might call his still lifes. Or is that Morandi's 
> art is interesting because his subject matter was so simple and his 
> attention obsessively small, just paintings of bottles after all.
>  
> Finnegan
> http://www.ursprache.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Apr  4 11:31:51 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:31:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Justice
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704040831v2db40240pd494b12cb41ddeff@mail.gmail.com>

Psalm and Lament
Donald Justice

Hialeah, Florida
in memory of my mother (1897?1974)

The clocks are sorry, the clocks are very sad.
One stops, one goes on striking the wrong hours.

And the grass burns terribly in the sun,
The grass turns yellow secretly at the roots.

Now suddenly the yard chairs look empty, the sky looks empty,
The sky looks vast and empty.

Out on Red Road the traffic continues; everything continues.
Nor does memory sleep; it goes on.

Out spring the butterflies of recollection,
And I think that for the first time I understand

The beautiful ordinary light of this patio
And even perhaps the dark rich earth of a heart.

(The bedclothes, they say, had been pulled down.
I will not describe it. I do not want to describe it.

No, but the sheets were drenched and twisted.
They were the very handkerchiefs of grief.)

Let summer come now with its schoolboy trumpets and fountains.
But the years are gone, the years are finally over.

And there is only
This long desolation of flower-bordered sidewalks

That runs to the corner, turns, and goes on,
That disappears and goes on

Into the black oblivion of a neighborhood and a world
Without billboards or yesterdays.

Sometimes a sad moon comes and waters the roof tiles.
But the years are gone. There are no more years.

from Collected Poems<http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375710544&ref=news&name=poemaday07>,
Random House, 2006




Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr  4 13:52:41 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 19:52:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] for those who are in Cambridge:
Message-ID: <006b01c776e2$0aa41380$60ef014f@ANNY>

POET & FULCRUM'S CONTRIBUTING EDITOR ROBERT KELLY
READS FROM NEW WORK
SATURDAY APRIL 7, 2007 @ 7PM
LAME DUCK BOOKS/PIERRE MENARD GALLERY
12 ARROW STREET , CAMBRIDGETel: 617-868-2022. Email: duck at lameduckbooks.com
FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

LAME DUCK BOOKS, in conjunction with PIERRE MENARD GALLERY, is proud to present Robert Kelly -- poet, novelist and essayist -- who will read from new work this Saturday, April 7, at 7PM.  The reading is free and open to the public, and there will be a reception in the author's honor to follow at which Mr. Kelly will be happy to sign copies of his books.  Several titles will be available for purchase.

Kelly is the author of more than fifty books of poetry and several novels.  His first book of poems appeared under the title Armed Descent in 1961, and ever since he has continued to assert his standing as one of America's finest experimental poets and one of our most intelligent and humane writers in general.  Some of Kelly's more notable books include Red Actions: Selected Poems 1960-1993 and a collection of short fictions, A Transparent Tree.  Many of his books -- nearly a shelf-full -- were published by the renowned Black Sparrow Press.  He has received numerous awards, including the Los Angeles Times First Annual Book Award (1980) for Kill the Messenger Who Brings Bad News and the American Book Award, Before Columbus Foundation in 1991 for In Time.

Robert Kelly was born in September of 1935 in Brooklyn , New York . He attended City College , from which he graduated in 1955, continuing his studies at Columbia University .  In 1961 he became professor of English Literature at Bard College , where he continues to teach today.

Kelly's most recent books are Lapis (Black Sparrow Press, 2005), Shame = Scham: a Collaboration with Birgit Kempker (McPherson, 2005), Threads (First Intensity Press, 2006) and May Day, published by Parsifal Editions in 2006.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Apr  4 15:11:12 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:11:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
Message-ID: <C2396280.F317%grahamd@ripon.edu>

.. . . is alive & well.

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/feature.onpoets.html?id=179439



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr  4 15:44:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:44:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marianne Faithfull
Message-ID: <00ae01c776f1$b71f82c0$60ef014f@ANNY>

Claire Dederer on Marianne Faithfull:

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/feature.html?id=177867

and the best: MARIANNE FAITHFULL on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=marianne+faithfull


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr  4 15:57:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:57:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] my favorite
Message-ID: <00b701c776f3$807302e0$60ef014f@ANNY>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUT9V3EhC2w

  what are you

  fighting/dying for

  it's not my security/reality

      Video Description           :SayItInBrokenEnglish
      Derek Jarman, Marianne Faithfull


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Apr  4 17:48:39 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
In-Reply-To: <C2396280.F317%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c77703$07326960$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Actually not a badly written "review" of his reading. The end is the best.
(getting away in the car from the claustrophobic "poetry" scene into the
clean night of highways &c.)  Oh, and this:

"(He is a man who is unafraid to stretch his hands into the air in a gesture
of helplessness.)"

Which might indicate a glimmer of self-awareness has penetrated his fog, but
probably is simply the sign of more sentimentalism and undigested
romanticism (romanticism-lite).

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:11 PM
To: NewPoetry
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen

.. . . is alive & well.

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/feature.onpoets.html?id=179439



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Wed Apr  4 23:10:02 2007
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:10:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2 cents in six words
In-Reply-To: <200704041600.l34G05cP031250@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704041600.l34G05cP031250@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <DEFE239D-25D8-433E-A77B-F3FB68B2D1DE@verizon.net>


On Apr 4, 2007, at 9:00 AM, Bob G. wrote:

> To me it's Our Town versus Finnegans Wake or Wagner's Ring.
>
> --Bob G.

      gotta be "versus,"
      can't be "and"?

     -- Barry
>



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Apr  5 07:17:12 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:17:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2 cents in six words
References: <200704041600.l34G05cP031250@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	DEFE239D-25D8-433E-A77B-F3FB68B2D1DE@verizon.net
Message-ID: <002401c77773$f9e446e0$88fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On Apr 4, 2007, at 9:00 AM, Bob G. wrote:
>
>> To me it's Our Town versus Finnegans Wake or Wagner's Ring.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
>      gotta be "versus,"
>      can't be "and"?
>
>     -- Barry

Come on, Barry, it was just a passing Internet remark.  But, okay, make it 
"To me it's Our Town IN CONTRAST TO Finnegans Wake or Wagner's Ring."  I 
don't think it very apt, though.  And I'll admit that I don't think much of 
"Our Town."  But I also have problems with Finnegans Wake, which I found too 
hermetic the last time I tried to get into it.  But that was long ago. 
Maybe I'd do better now.

--Bob






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr  5 15:15:16 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:15:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Avant-Garde under "Post-" Conditions
Message-ID: <00bb01c777b6$bedd5d00$d1af3252@ANNY>

AVANT-POST
The Avant-Garde under "Post-" Conditions
ed. Louis Armand

ISBN 80-7308-123-7 (paperback). 300pp.
Published: September 2006. 
Price: euro 12.00 (not including postage)

http://litteraria.ff.cuni.cz/books/avant_post.html

Avant-Post engages the question of whether or not avant-garde practice remains viable under the prevailing conditions of a whole series of "post-" ideologies, from Post-Modernism and Post-Structuralism, to Post-Historicism, Post-Humanism and Post-Ideology itself. 


Contributors include a range of artists and theorists, such as Johanna Drucker, Michael S. Begnal, Lisa Jarnot, Ann Vickery, Christian B?k, Robert Archambeau, Mairead Byrne, R.M. Berry, Trey Strecker, Keston Sutherland, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Robert Sheppard, Bonita Rhoads, Vadim Erent, Laurent Milesi, Esther Milne ...

Louis Armand is director of the InterCultural Studies programme in the Philosophy Faculty of Charles University, Prague. His books include Solicitations: Essays on Criticism & Culture; Techne: James Joyce, Hypertext & Technology; and Incendiary Devices: Discourses of the Other.

www.litterariapragensia.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Director of Intercultural Studies (ICS)
Department of English & American Studies, 
Philosophy Faculty, Charles University, 
Nam. J. Palacha 2, 116 38 Praha 1, Czech Republic. 
Tel.: (+420) 221 619 279 Fax: (+420) 221 619 382 
www.louis-armand.com
www.litteriapragensia.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr  5 15:17:22 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:17:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	"Captain Pearl R. Nye: Life on the Ohio and Erie Canal, "
Message-ID: <00c901c777b7$09a8b3c0$d1af3252@ANNY>

The Library of Congress's American Folklife Center is pleased to announce a
new presentation, "Captain Pearl R. Nye: Life on the Ohio and Erie Canal,"
now available on the Library's American Memory Web site at:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/nye/. 

"Captain Pearl R. Nye: Life on the Ohio and Erie Canal" captures the culture
and music of the men, women, and children who worked and lived along the
Ohio and Erie Canal. Nye, who was born and raised on a canal boat, never
lost his love of the "Big Ditch." After the canal closed permanently in
1913, he devoted considerable time and energy to preserving its songs and
stories.

This presentation contains recordings of 75 songs, sung by Nye. The
recordings were made by John, Alan, and Elizabeth Lomax, and Ivan Walton
between June 1937 and September 1938. Lyrics for the recorded songs have
been transcribed by Library staff and are available on the Web site as are
song transcriptions, photographs, and personal letters Nye sent to the
Library from July 1937 to October 1944.

Also included in this presentation is an essay called "An Informant In
Search of a Collector: Captain Pearl R. Nye of Ohio" and a timeline that
identifies significant events in the life of Nye and the history of the Ohio
and Erie Canal with which his life was so closely associated. A radio
program excerpt from "Two Sailors: Sea Shanties and Canal Boat Ballads,"
part of the Library's "Ballad Hunter" series, provides additional insight
into Nye's life.

The American Folklife Center: < http://www.loc.gov/folklife/ > was created
by Congress in 1976 and placed at the Library of Congress to "preserve and
present American folklife" through programs of research, documentation,
archival preservation, reference service, live performance, exhibition,
public programs, and training. The Center includes the Archive of Folk
Culture, which was established in 1928 and is now one of the largest
collections of ethnographic material from the United States and around the
world...."

For further information, please contact the American Folklife Center: <
http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-folklife2.html >.

>>>>>

Laura Gottesman
Digital Reference Team/ American Memory: <
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/index.html .
The Library of Congress: < http://www.loc.gov/index.html >
Ask a Librarian: http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Thu Apr  5 20:52:50 2007
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 19:52:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
Message-ID: <2774.1175820770@opus40.org>

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Apr  6 03:51:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:51:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
References: <2774.1175820770@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003401c77820$7119c7b0$d63e014f@ANNY>

Indeed!
  From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:52 AM


  Anny, this is wonderful.


  On Thu Apr 5 15:17 , 'Anny Ballardini' sent:


    The Library of Congress's American Folklife Center is pleased to announce a
    new presentation, "Captain Pearl R. Nye: Life on the Ohio and Erie Canal,"
    now available on the Library's American Memory Web site at:
    http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/nye/. 

    "Captain Pearl R. Nye: Life on the Ohio and Erie Canal" captures the culture
    and music of the men, women, and children who worked and lived along the
    Ohio and Erie Canal. Nye, who was born and raised on a canal boat, never
    lost his love of the "Big Ditch." After the canal closed permanently in
    1913, he devoted considerable time and energy to preserving its songs and
    stories.

    This presentation contains recordings of 75 songs, sung by Nye. The
    recordings were made by John, Alan, and Elizabeth Lomax, and Ivan Walton
    between June 1937 and September 1938. Lyrics for the recorded songs have
    been transcribed by Library staff and are available on the Web site as are
    song transcriptions, photographs, and personal letters Nye sent to the
    Library from July 1937 to October 1944.

    Also included in this presentation is an essay called "An Informant In
    Search of a Collector: Captain Pearl R. Nye of Ohio" and a timeline that
    identifies significant events in the life of Nye and the history of the Ohio
    and Erie Canal with which his life was so closely associated. A radio
    program excerpt from "Two Sailors: Sea Shanties and Canal Boat Ballads,"
    part of the Library's "Ballad Hunter" series, provides additional insight
    into Nye's life.

    The American Folklife Center: < http://www.loc.gov/folklife/ > was created
    by Congress in 1976 and placed at the Library of Congress to "preserve and
    present American folklife" through programs of research, documentation,
    archival preservation, reference service, live performance, exhibition,
    public programs, and training. The Center includes the Archive of Folk
    Culture, which was established in 1928 and is now one of the largest
    collections of ethnographic material from the United States and around the
    world...."

    For further information, please contact the American Folklife Center: <
    http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-folklife2.html >.

    >>>>>

    Laura Gottesman
    Digital Reference Team/ American Memory: <
    http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/index.html .
    The Library of Congress: < http://www.loc.gov/index.html >
    Ask a Librarian: http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Fri Apr  6 09:56:04 2007
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 06:56:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Submissions notice
Message-ID: <648208b60704060656y6a27e016tb65b869deb0028a3@mail.gmail.com>

The Salt River Review will be open for submissions May 1st for the
Fall, 2007 issue. Submission guidelines and details are available at
the site (see below).

Poetry submissions for the Fall, 2007 issue should be directed to Greg
Simon. Guest fiction editor for for the fall issue will be Carol
Novack, Publisher & Editor of Mad Hatters' Review.

Meanwhile, the Spring, 2007 issue is online, with:
Poetry by Tony Burfield, Sheila Black, Nathaniel Rounds, Frances
Ruhlen McConnel, Margo Solod, David Brendan Hopes, Flavia Cosma,
Glenna Luschei, Michael Scott Cain, Katherine Holmes, & Alexis Quinlan
Fiction by Noah McGee, Donna D. Vitucci, Mark McBride, & Tiffany Promise

The Salt River Review: http: www.poetserv.org


From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 13:12:47 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:12:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poet laureate - live by webcast
In-Reply-To: <200704061530.l36FUpj0012186@writing.upenn.edu>
References: <200704061530.l36FUpj0012186@writing.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94685EF07782E-19C-6E44@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>

From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu
To: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu
Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: poet laureate - live by webcast


                rsvp to whfellow at writing.upenn.edu

LIVE WEBCAST    
************

United States Poet Laureate

DONALD HALL on April 17, 2007

at the Kelly Writers House

join us by live webcast 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Kelly Writers House Fellows program presents

DONALD HALL

10:30 AM (eastern time) on Tuesday, April 17, 2007

a conversation (with audience Q&A) conducted by Al Filreis

To participate via webcast, simply rsvp to: 

            whfellow at writing.upenn.edu

Anyone with an internet connection can participate. Participants in the
webcast will be able to pose questions to Mr. Hall by email or
telephone. For more information about the Kelly Writers House webcast
series, see

              http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/webcasts/

Those who rsvp will receive further instructions.

For more about Writers House Fellows, see:

        http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow/

Kelly Writers House
3805 Locust Walk
University of Pennsylvania
215 573-WRIT
http://writing.upenn.edu/wh


Donald Hall is the current United States Poet Laureate. He has published
fifteen books of poetry, most recently White Apples and the Taste of
Stone: Selected Poems 1946-2006 (2006); The Painted Bed (2002) and
Without: Poems (1998), which was published on the third anniversary of
the death from leukemia of his wife, the poet Jane Kenyon. Other
collections are The One Day (1988), which won the National Book Critics
Circle Award, the Los Angeles Times Book Prize, and a Pulitzer Prize
nomination, and The Happy Man (1986), which won the Lenore Marshall
Poetry Prize. He has also published children's books, short stories,
plays, and several autobiographical works, such as The Best Day The
Worst Day: Life with Jane Kenyon (2005) and Life Work (1993), which won
the New England Book award for nonfiction. His honors include two
Guggenheim fellowships, the Poetry Society of America's Robert Frost
Silver medal, and a Lifetime Achievement award from the New Hampshire
Writers and Publisher Project. Hall served as Poet Laureate of New
Hampshire from 1984 to 1989.

Poet, novelist and critic John Fuller has said of Hall's work, "It is
the hardest thing to write poems as simple and celebratory as these,
full of love and observation of the commonplace." 


                                    * - *

     Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly.

                    previous Fellows:
                                      
                    Jamaica Kincaid     2007
                    John McPhee           
                                        Richard Ford            2006
                                        Cynthia Ozick
                                        Ian Frazier
                                        Adrienne Rich           2005
                                        E. L. Doctorow
                                        Roger Angell
                                        James Alan McPherson    2004
                                        Lyn Hejinian
                                        Russell Banks
                    Susan Sontag        2003
                    Walter Bernstein
                    Laurie Anderson
                                        John Ashbery            2002
                                        Charles Fuller
                                        Michael Cunningham
                                        June Jordan             2001
                                        David Sedaris 
                                        Tony Kushner
                                        Grace Paley             2000
                                        Robert Creeley
                                        John Edgar Wideman
                                        Gay Talese              1999

   recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here:

        http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 13:56:28 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:56:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Bunny's favorite poem
Message-ID: <8C9468C08F0F8FE-19C-7042@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>

A Rabbit As King Of The Ghosts
 

The difficulty to think at the end of day,
When the shapeless shadow covers the sun
And nothing is left except light on your fur?
 
There was the cat slopping its milk all day,
Fat cat, red tongue, green mind, white milk
And August the most peaceful month.
 
To be, in the grass, in the peacefullest time,
Without that monument of cat, 
The cat forgotten on the moon;
 
And to feel that the light is a rabbit-light
In which everything is meant for you
And nothing need be explained;
 
Then there is nothing to think of. It comes of itself;
And east rushes west and west rushes down,
No matter. The grass is full
 
And full of yourself. The trees around are for you,
The whole of the wideness of night is for you,
A self that touches all edges,
 
You become a self that fills the four corners of night.
The red cat hides away in the fur-light
And there you are humped high, humped up,
 
You are humped higher and higher, black as stone?
You sit with your head like a carving in space
And the little green cat is a bug in the grass.

--Wallace Stevens
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From sd at debris.org.uk  Fri Apr  6 17:20:36 2007
From: sd at debris.org.uk (sprosch vac 2)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:20:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Easter Bunny's favorite poem
In-Reply-To: <8C9468C08F0F8FE-19C-7042@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9468C08F0F8FE-19C-7042@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20070406213929.C748.SD@debris.org.uk>


my fur stands on end. reading at the end of the day.

black flies, grey dust, blue mould on the bread in the cup board. i sit
like a whole self at that monument. Trees on the moon.


                                             o
                          +          .                    o
     dEbRiS                               <><
   e sd at debris.org.uk         .                      ><[[[[?>
 web http://www.debris.org.uk
     scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc       o
                . / . .       |||    .   /      .*-|/-*      delete?
|||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7||
                                                               exit

     universo zinko.





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr  7 10:52:25 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 16:52:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] HCE
Message-ID: <006201c77924$5b786970$8cec3652@ANNY>

HCE : An Here Comes Everybody Anthology
By Lance Phillips (and some help from Geoffrey Gatza)


BUY IT NOW!!! On Amazon.com

http://www.blazevox.org/bk-lp.htm

   Book Information:

   . Paperback: 754 pages
   . Binding: Perfect-Bound
   . Publisher: BlazeVOX [books] (March 2007)
   . ISBN: 1-934289-04-3

   $29.95

       Buy it NOW!
--------------------------------------------------
For List of all 130 poets included please go to webpage!
--------------------------------------------------

http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com
http://www.blazevox.org/bk-lp.htm


-----------------
FROM THE INTRODUCTION
-----------------

"No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is
obvious."
   George Bernard Shaw


Ten Question! Lance Phillips asked the same ten question so as many writer
as he could email and those that responded, and respond they did, became one
of the hottest websites in the early days of blogging. A wildfire of
excitement grew. Lance had what we call a YouTube a moment of capturing the
right idea at the right moment. And this book is a gathering from that site.
The idea is of course not new. These 10 questions originally came from a
French series, "Bouillon de Culture" hosted by Bernard Pivot. It is probably
more familiar to many as the question James Lipton asks at the end of
"Inside the Actor's Studio." I've found these questions interesting among
friends. It's amazing what the simple answers to these questions reveal
about a person's thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

Presented are 130 writers, each with their own 10 questions and their
answers. These questions are disarmingly simple steps towards attaining a
knowing, a greater understanding of person as poet. We also get a rare
glimpse at how each brain wraps around a seemingly obvious question. Each
author creates a charming portrait of themselves in their answers. Each
writer comes to their craft in their own way and here we have a splendid way
to engage each writer, in their own words, on a level playing field across a
large strata of information. Here comes everybody, indeed.

This book conducts itself away from the interactions of a collection of
interviews. There is only the author and their reaction to the questions at
the moment in time they were asked them. Many of these are from 2003 through
2005. And so the biographic texts that accompany each set of answers are
deliberately left in their 'as-is' state.

Also included in this volume is the reactions from friends, remarks made on
this website in the days following Robert Creeley's death. This one poet
influenced so many .... it is hard for me, even today to find the proper
words one has to say to get out what it is that this section is supposed to
do. The world no longer has a Creeley in it. This is a record, more or less,
a portrait, maybe, a snapshot of sorts of grief. A reaction of artist for
their artist, friend, mentor, father . so on. Here are questions, interviews
and poems submitted by Ed Smith, Joseph Lease, Chris Stroffolino, Jim Ellis,
Brent Cunningham, Elizabeth Robinson, Ann Lauterbach, Linh Dinh, Joel Lewis,
and Ken Rumble.


I hope you enjoy this book as much as we have had in putting it together.
This is a captured frame of text in a wonderfully creative time. There is
war, a troubled government, a thriving internet culture, a wonderfully
safe/anonymous economically devoid environment to create our poetry. As the
title wrongly indicates, here is everybody, if you are not in this edition,
you will certainly appear in one of our upcoming editions of this series.

Best Geoffrey



Geoffrey Gatza
March 8, 2007





Best, Geoffrey

Geoffrey Gatza
BlazeVOX [books]
www.blazevox.org

-----Original Message-----
From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On
Behalf Of Deborah A. Meadows
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:32 PM
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: message from Lance Phillips on Here Comes Everybody anthology

Dear Bflo list,

Poet Lance Phillips just passed on this message on how to order the newly
produced Here Comes Everybody anthology (co-edited with Geoffrey Gatza) with
a request to pass on the message due to a hard drive crash.
Thanks,
Deborah Meadows

Here:

Listen everybody I'm hoping you all can do me a favor.  The HCE anthology is
finally (this finally is directed at at none other than yours truly)
available.  There's info about how to obtain a copy at
http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com
<https://exchange.csupomona.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://herecomesev
erybody.blogspot.com> .  Geoffrey Gatza deserves all the credit on this he
got the book finished with no help from me (in addition to being a
procrastinator the last nine months or so have been very difficult for me).
The favor I have in mind is this.  In addition to everything else going on
our hard drive crashed a couple of weeks ago and I lost some things
including my HCE email list.  I'm trying to pick it out of a rather long
back-up document but its not going well.  I have been able to retrieve some
emails, yours among them.  I hoping you all can spread the word about the
anthology either by forwarding this email to whom ever you think would be
interested, by posting something about the anthology on your blog or a
listserv or just by mentioning the anthology to a couple of friends.

Thanks,

Lance
http://lancephillips.blogspot
<https://exchange.csupomona.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://lancephilli
ps.blogspot.com>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr  7 11:51:04 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 11:51:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print
Message-ID: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org>

I enjoy Logan, and I think he has his place, but he's better with his 
little drive-bys on a roundup of poets than he is in this full-length NY 
Times review of Derek Walcott -- 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/books/review/Logan.t.html

Here's a taste:

Walcott had barely been noticed before he became noted. By his mid 30s, 
he was composing a verse autobiography (an act of hubris akin to a pop 
star writing his life at 19). ?Another Life? (1973) is a pretentious, 
pressure-cooker affair, a tour de force fatally uneasy with itself. 
(Surely you give a few hostages to describe yourself as a prodigy, even 
if a ?prodigy of the wrong age and colour.?) At times it reads like ?The 
Prelude? by a writer far more elegant than Wordsworth, though almost 
every line about the poet himself sounds false.

The Times, with its broader-than-the-PoWorld readership, should be 
giving its reviews to someone else.

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Apr  7 12:52:29 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:52:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print
In-Reply-To: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org>
References: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704070952x7a4f271ave9eb68f36fbd40b1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not a fan of Logan, though I may have been in the past.  At one point, I
think I thought it was some kind of "duty" to write what I conceived of as
"honest" reviews.  I don't subscribe to that Logic anymore.  Writing bad
reviews is easy--too easy.  It's like fishing in an overstocked pond--of
course, you're going to catch something and of course you're going to find
something that you don't like.

Any masochistic enjoyment I may have gotten out of Logan died with his
ill-conceived Hart Crane piece in the New York Times.  A silly &
poorly-constructed argument, the review did little to change anyone's
opinion of Crane, for better or worse.  The review probably confirmed a lot
that people already thought about Logan, though.  I mean, the guy wants to
be Randall Jarrell so bad, he can't stand it.

Tad said, "The Times, with its broader-than-the-PoWorld readership, should
be giving its reviews to someone else."

Amen & well-said.


Jeff Newberry

On 4/7/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> I enjoy Logan, and I think he has his place, but he's better with his
> little drive-bys on a roundup of poets than he is in this full-length NY
> Times review of Derek Walcott --
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/books/review/Logan.t.html
>
> Here's a taste:
>
> Walcott had barely been noticed before he became noted. By his mid 30s,
> he was composing a verse autobiography (an act of hubris akin to a pop
> star writing his life at 19). "Another Life" (1973) is a pretentious,
> pressure-cooker affair, a tour de force fatally uneasy with itself.
> (Surely you give a few hostages to describe yourself as a prodigy, even
> if a "prodigy of the wrong age and colour.") At times it reads like "The
> Prelude" by a writer far more elegant than Wordsworth, though almost
> every line about the poet himself sounds false.
>
> The Times, with its broader-than-the-PoWorld readership, should be
> giving its reviews to someone else.
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr  7 14:31:54 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:31:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Hits of the Week
Message-ID: <4617E39A.9090903@opus40.org>

Plagiarist.com, as near as I can make out, is a pirate site, collecting 
non-authorized poems, and as such, hardly merits our admiration. But 
they do keep a counter on each page, and it looks as though someone may 
be out there reading some poetry. Here are a scattering of poems from 
poets from A to C:

A. R. Ammons - Rogue Elephant -- 4122 hits
Marvin Bell - To Dorothy - 5330
John Berryman - Dream Song 100 - 3229
Elizabeth Bishop- First Death In Nova Scotia - 9540
Gwendolyn Brooks - We Real Cool 15081
Charles Bukowski- A Radio With Guts - 9409
Hayden Carruth - At Seventy-Five: Rereading An Old Book - 2008
Lucille Clifton - Sisters - 6092
Billy Collins - I Ask You - 8415
Gregory Corso - BOMB - 5040
Robert Creeley - I Know A Man - 7393

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr  7 15:09:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:09:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Sun
Message-ID: <00ae01c77948$4afd9f10$8cec3652@ANNY>

1. The one who will shine in the science of writing will shine like the sun. 

A scribe (EP, p. 87)

O Samas (sun-god), by your light you scan the totality of lands as if they were cuneiform signs (ibid.).

  from the opening of the Exergue by Jacques Derrida, Of Grammatology



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr  7 15:48:30 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:48:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Hits of the Week
References: <4617E39A.9090903@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <00bd01c7794d$b826c620$8cec3652@ANNY>

:-)
you don't have any_thing better to do?
(hope this is not too nasty but could not keep it for myself...)

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:31 PM


> Plagiarist.com, as near as I can make out, is a pirate site, collecting 
> non-authorized poems, and as such, hardly merits our admiration. But 
> they do keep a counter on each page, and it looks as though someone may 
> be out there reading some poetry. Here are a scattering of poems from 
> poets from A to C:
> 
> A. R. Ammons - Rogue Elephant -- 4122 hits
> Marvin Bell - To Dorothy - 5330
> John Berryman - Dream Song 100 - 3229
> Elizabeth Bishop- First Death In Nova Scotia - 9540
> Gwendolyn Brooks - We Real Cool 15081
> Charles Bukowski- A Radio With Guts - 9409
> Hayden Carruth - At Seventy-Five: Rereading An Old Book - 2008
> Lucille Clifton - Sisters - 6092
> Billy Collins - I Ask You - 8415
> Gregory Corso - BOMB - 5040
> Robert Creeley - I Know A Man - 7393
> 
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr  7 16:10:44 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:10:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: 
Message-ID: <00d201c77950$d2f11cf0$8cec3652@ANNY>


Ok, it's Easter...
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr  7 17:01:56 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 23:01:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <000401c77962$21b7fb90$31ab3252@ANNY>

 
1. The one who will shine in the science of writing will shine like the sun. 

A scribe (EP, p. 87)

O Samas (sun-god), by your light you scan the totality of lands as if they were cuneiform signs (ibid.).

from the opening of the Exergue by Jacques Derrida, Of Grammatology

 

 

New Poets: 

  

David Baratier

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=227

 

Laura Heidy

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=228

 

Tim Peterson

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=229

 

Jeffrey Side

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=230

 

Anne Tardos

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=233

 

Luc Fierens

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=234

 

Ruth Lepson

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=235

 

Paul Vangelisti

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=236

 

Joyce Nower

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=237

 

Paul Muldoon

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=238

 

Tom Beckett

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=239

 

 

New poems of already featured Poets:

 

Richard Dillon 

SUDDEN GIFT, A NEW YORK XMAS POEM

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1822

CHERRY CREEK CAPER

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1898

 

Alan Sondheim 

The gods

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1823

A/Rose for Baudrillard

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1904

 

Barry Alpert

OF DOUGLAS GORDON

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1852

THE MARQUISE OF O.

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1853

WILLOW TREE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1884

 

Halvard Johnson

Favorite California Churches

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1882

 

James Cervantes

Poems That Arrived Without a Briefcase

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1883

 

David-Baptiste Chirot

light remains 1

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1895

light remains 2

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1896

light remains 3

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1897

 

Jeff Harrison

* The Recital *

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1909

* The Vying *

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1910

 

 

Under Poets on Poets:

 

Paul Vangelisti

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=70

 

Euripides by Jon Corelis and ongoing work with new additions

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=66

 

 

Under Reviews:

 

Emanuele Carnevale by Dennis Barone

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=260

 

 

My acknowledgment to all those who appear on the Poets' Corner _as usual the order of apparition follows the order by which I received the contribution. With my best wishes for a wonderful and fruitful Spring,



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From skip at louisiana.edu  Sun Apr  8 16:34:13 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:34:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Bunny's favorite poem
In-Reply-To: <8C9468C08F0F8FE-19C-7042@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c77a1d$4b554c30$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I always thought it was on solipsism. Of course, the overly self-involved
(full of themselves) are often happy. (At least they are brought to
recognize the fact that their potential threats are larger and less benignly
picturesque than they might have naively conceived.)

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:56 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Bunny's favorite poem

 

A Rabbit As King Of The Ghosts

 


The difficulty to think at the end of day,
When the shapeless shadow covers the sun
And nothing is left except light on your fur-

 

There was the cat slopping its milk all day,
Fat cat, red tongue, green mind, white milk
And August the most peaceful month.

 

To be, in the grass, in the peacefullest time,
Without that monument of cat, 
The cat forgotten on the moon;

 

And to feel that the light is a rabbit-light
In which everything is meant for you
And nothing need be explained;

 

Then there is nothing to think of. It comes of itself;
And east rushes west and west rushes down,
No matter. The grass is full

 

And full of yourself. The trees around are for you,
The whole of the wideness of night is for you,
A self that touches all edges,

 

You become a self that fills the four corners of night.
The red cat hides away in the fur-light
And there you are humped high, humped up,

 

You are humped higher and higher, black as stone-
You sit with your head like a carving in space
And the little green cat is a bug in the grass.


--Wallace Stevens

  _____  

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at  <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> AOL.com.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr  9 04:07:31 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:07:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] kari edwards
Message-ID: <002401c77a7e$2031efc0$3bd83052@ANNY>

Sent by Amy King to the Buffalo:

kari edwards' audio here ---->  http://www.miporadio.net/kari_edwards/index.html 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:48:31 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:48:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] kari edwards
In-Reply-To: <002401c77a7e$2031efc0$3bd83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <666715.77495.qm@web83314.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Anny!

Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:            Sent by Amy King to the Buffalo:
   
    kari edwards' audio here ---->  http://www.miporadio.net/kari_edwards/index.html 

    
---------------------------------
  


  Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Mon Apr  9 17:33:51 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:33:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0704070952x7a4f271ave9eb68f36fbd40b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0704070952x7a4f271ave9eb68f36fbd40b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704091433g7540965asf57df9c50f2d7076@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/7/07, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not a fan of Logan, though I may have been in the past.  At one point,
> I think I thought it was some kind of "duty" to write what I conceived of as
> "honest" reviews.  I don't subscribe to that Logic anymore.  Writing bad
> reviews is easy--too easy.  It's like fishing in an overstocked pond--of
> course, you're going to catch something and of course you're going to find
> something that you don't like.



In my opinion hatchet jobs and puff pieces are pretty much cut from the same
bolt of emotional cloth.  They aren't honest, and they aren't about the
poetry--- they are about the writer of the hatchet job or puff piece, they
are about career, and they are a sign that in many important ways this
community is too small for its own good.

There are so many really good reviewers out there-- Rain Taxi does very well
in finding thoughtful reviewers.  I don't know why the Times can't do
better.

Suzanne Burns
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Apr 11 10:57:08 2007
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:57:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] christopher smart born 285 years ago today
Message-ID: <461CF744.2010502@ilstu.edu>

Happy Birthday to our perpetual nephew Christopher, holder of a pheon's 
head, enemy of Satan, helper of animals, one who was ill treated and 
abandoned, and who is still waiting for the good Samaritan. April 11 1722.

"For I have a nephew CHRISTOPHER to whom I implore the grace of God."

Let the Levites of the Lord take the Beavers of the brook alive into the 
Ark of the Testimony.

A jubilation: http://tinyurl.com/ys5z9n




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 11 15:51:02 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:51:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman
Message-ID: <008601c77c72$bc8160e0$5ce83652@ANNY>

Bob Grumman and Geof Huth,
a pity I have no access to the interview, I can watch YouTube though, do not know why:
http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2007/04/grummans-carchives-beyond-shade-of.html#links



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 18:20:58 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:20:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] DREAM OF THE POEM
Message-ID: <8C94B67FB0E1F8D-39C-96FD@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.bookforum.com/perloff.html  
THE DREAM OF THE POEM: HEBREW POETRY FROM MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN SPAIN, 950?1492 TRANSLATED AND EDITED WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY PETER COLE. PRINCETON, NJ: PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS. 576 PAGES. $50. BUY NOW
   
by Marjorie Perloff
  In the middle of the tenth century, a young Moroccan Jewish poet named Dunash ben Labrat arrived in the Andalusian city of Cordoba, then ruled by the blue-eyed caliph of Spanish-Basque descent 'Abd al-Rahmaan III. Dunash had studied in Baghdad, then considered the most spectacular city in the world, with the head of the Babylonian Jewish academy of Sura, Sa'adia ben Yosef al-Fayuumi, a man of great learning, who taught him, among other things, a keen appreciation of Arabic and its notion of fasaaha (radiance, clarity), as well as its importance for the understanding of Hebrew Scripture. Tenth-century Cordoba was a second Baghdad: a sophisticated city, where Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in relative harmony and Arabic was the dominant language. "By the mid?tenth century," writes Peter Cole, "Jews, Christians, North-African Berber Muslims, and Christian converts were competing with the Arabs themselves for mastery of that most beautiful of languages, which became both the lingua franca of al-Andalus and the currency of high culture." Indeed, conditions for the Jews were so favorable that the conversion rate was low: They spoke Arabic, adopted native dress, and worked side by side with their Muslim neighbors. Dunash, settling in Cordoba and adapting the inflections of Arabic poetry to his native Hebrew, declared, "Let Scripture be your Eden . . . and the Arabs' books your paradise grove." 
 
________________________________________________________________________
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 18:25:14 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:25:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: all Pound recordings now available
In-Reply-To: <200704120232.l3C2WiOQ020857@writing.upenn.edu>
References: <200704120232.l3C2WiOQ020857@writing.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94B6893A0DAD1-39C-971C@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu
To: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu
Sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:32 PM
Subject: all Pound recordings now available

Dear friends:

In the past year our PENNsound recordings - free sound files - were
downloaded 8 million times.

Now we've added the complete recordings of Ezra Pound. We hope you'll go
to the site and have a listen! See below for details.

Al Filreis
Kelly Professor of English
Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House
Director, the Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing
University of Pennsylvania
http://writing.upenn.edu




PENNsound is pleased to announce

    The Complete Poetry Recordings of Ezra Pound

    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Pound.html 

edited, with an extended listening guide, by Richard Sieburth.

The PENNsound Pound includes many rare recordings, as well as a set of
private recordings, made in 1962-1972, whose existence had not
previously been known. Sieburth provides a detailed essay to accompany
the recordings, which cover Pound's two major recording sessions, at
Harvard in 1939 and in Washington, DC, in 1958. In addition, we include
Pound's 1942 reading of Canto XLVI, broadcast on Italian radio as part
of his radio speeches; Pound's reading at Spoleto in 1967; Pound's
reading of his "Confucian Odes" (Spoleto, 1970), and a private recording
of three Cantos from the early 1970s.

We are grateful to New Directions Publishing Corporation and the heirs
of Ezra Pound for making these recordings available for noncommercial
and educational use. As with all PENNsound recordings, these file are
downloadable MP3 sound files.

PENNsound was launched on January 1, 2006 by Charles Bernstein and Al
Filreis. We are currently making available about 8,000 MP3 files and
continue to expand rapidly. In the last year, over eight million
individual sound files were downloaded from PENNsound.

Other recent additions to PENNsound include the complete recordings of
William Carlos Williams, and extensive collections of recordings by
Jackson Mac Low, Susan Howe, Anne Tardos, Anne Waldman, Myung Mi Kim,
Charles Reznikofff, Alan Davies, Tracie Morris, Bruce Andrews, Barbara
Guest, Nicole Brossard, Robin Blaser, Amiri Baraka, Bern Porter, Robert
Grenier, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Allen Ginsberg, Brian Kim Stefans,
Kenneth Goldsmith & many others. We also host two poetry radio programs,
Close Listening, with Charles Bernstein; and Cross-Cultural Poetics with
Leonard Schwartz. Al Filreis hosts our monthly PENNsound podcast.

http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound
http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Pound.html
________________________________________________________________________
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr 12 18:27:01 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:27:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] DREAM OF THE POEM
References: <8C94B67FB0E1F8D-39C-96FD@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <014101c77d51$b13e1f90$de3e014f@ANNY>

How much does Marjorie Perloff write and how well does she write!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:20 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] DREAM OF THE POEM


  http://www.bookforum.com/perloff.html  
  THE DREAM OF THE POEM: HEBREW POETRY FROM MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN SPAIN, 950?1492 TRANSLATED AND EDITED WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY PETER COLE. PRINCETON, NJ: PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS. 576 PAGES. $50. BUY NOW
     
  by Marjorie Perloff
    In the middle of the tenth century, a young Moroccan Jewish poet named Dunash ben Labrat arrived in the Andalusian city of Cordoba, then ruled by the blue-eyed caliph of Spanish-Basque descent 'Abd al-Rahmaan III. Dunash had studied in Baghdad, then considered the most spectacular city in the world, with the head of the Babylonian Jewish academy of Sura, Sa'adia ben Yosef al-Fayuumi, a man of great learning, who taught him, among other things, a keen appreciation of Arabic and its notion of fasaaha (radiance, clarity), as well as its importance for the understanding of Hebrew Scripture. Tenth-century Cordoba was a second Baghdad: a sophisticated city, where Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in relative harmony and Arabic was the dominant language. "By the mid?tenth century," writes Peter Cole, "Jews, Christians, North-African Berber Muslims, and Christian converts were competing with the Arabs themselves for mastery of that most beautiful of languages, which became both the lingua franca of al-Andalus and the currency of high culture." Indeed, conditions for the Jews were so favorable that the conversion rate was low: They spoke Arabic, adopted native dress, and worked side by side with their Muslim neighbors. Dunash, settling in Cordoba and adapting the inflections of Arabic poetry to his native Hebrew, declared, "Let Scripture be your Eden . . . and the Arabs' books your paradise grove." 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 21:56:17 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:56:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] So it goes: Vonnegut, Nov. 11, 1922 -- April 11, 2007
In-Reply-To: <8C94B8571851762-194-7AE7@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <430483.23998.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8C94B8571851762-194-7AE7@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C94B860F1D8238-194-7B15@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com>


The main business of humanity is to do a good job of being human
beings, not to serve as appendages to machines, institutions,
and systems.
==1952. Player Piano.
 
We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what
we pretend to be.
==1962. Mother Night.
 
Poverty is a relatively mild disease ... but uselessness will
kill strong and weak souls alike.
== 1965. God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater.
 
Find a subject you care about and which you feel others should
care about. It is this genuine caring, and not your games with
language, which will be the most compelling and seductive
element in your style. 
==Quoted in Words of Wisdom, by Wm. Safire & Leonard Safire,
1989. 
 
I like to say that the 51st state is the state of denial. It's
as though a huge comet were heading for us and nobody wants to
talk about it. 
== 2005. Interview, The Associated Press.
 
When I think about my own death, I don't console myself with the
idea that my descendants and my books and all that will live on.
Anybody with any sense knows that the whole solar system will go
up like a celluloid collar by-and-by. I honestly believe,
though, that we are wrong to think that moments go away, never
to be seen again. This moment and every moment lasts forever.
== 1974. Wampeters, Foma & Granfalloons.

 
 
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Apr 13 10:10:50 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:10:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0704091433g7540965asf57df9c50f2d7076@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org><731bb17a0704070952x7a4f271ave9eb68f36fbd40b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<aa458fec0704091433g7540965asf57df9c50f2d7076@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F868889-06ED-4D62-B24B-AFCFCFFDA6EF@ripon.edu>

> In my opinion hatchet jobs and puff pieces are pretty much cut from  
> the same bolt of emotional cloth.  They aren't honest, and they  
> aren't about the poetry--- they are about the writer of the hatchet  
> job or puff piece, they are about career, and they are a sign that  
> in many important ways this community is too small for its own good.
>
> There are so many really good reviewers out there-- Rain Taxi does  
> very well in finding thoughtful reviewers.  I don't know why the  
> Times can't do better.
>
> Suzanne Burns
==========================

I agree.  Logan's certainly highly intelligent, and if one can wade  
through the show-off rhetoric; the shock-jock outrageousness,  
condescension and snideness; the laughably limited range of taste,  
there are many nuggets of fine criticism.  And it can be refreshing  
to see him puncture a few overinflated balloons.  But why bother,  
when in fact there are so many better reviewers and critics out there?

Logan and his admirers appear to feel that any criticism that doesn't  
go for the jugular is mere puffery.  While there's certainly lots of  
puffery out there, there is also a wide territory to work in between  
the poles.

So who are your favorite critics and reviewers?

Back when he did more reviewing, Donald Hall was one of the best, I  
always thought.  He had no qualms about attacking what he saw as  
ridiculously inflated reputations (e.g. Robert Penn Warren and Robert  
Lowell), but he was equally fond of ferreting out the  
underappreciated (e.g. Thomas McGrath) and composing judicious  
praise.  Neither puffery nor slash-and-burn.

Hall's a better prose stylist, too, for that matter:  Logan's only  
got one or two arrows in his quiver, both derived utterly from  
Randall Jarrell.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================




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From almaginnes at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 11:49:02 2007
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:49:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print
In-Reply-To: <0F868889-06ED-4D62-B24B-AFCFCFFDA6EF@ripon.edu>
References: <4617BDE8.4080105@opus40.org><731bb17a0704070952x7a4f271ave9eb68f36fbd40b1@mail.gmail.com>	<aa458fec0704091433g7540965asf57df9c50f2d7076@mail.gmail.com>
	<0F868889-06ED-4D62-B24B-AFCFCFFDA6EF@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94BFA6474EDA1-9BC-BE64@WEBMAIL-MA07.sysops.aol.com>

Back when David Baker used to review for POETRY, I found that if he liked something, I'd usually like it as well. Peter Makuck, former editor of Tar River Poetry and a fine poet, is also a scrupulous reviewer.  
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] All the Logan That's Fit to Print


In my opinion hatchet jobs and puff pieces are pretty much cut from the same bolt of emotional cloth.  They aren't honest, and they aren't about the poetry--- they are about the writer of the hatchet job or puff piece, they are about career, and they are a sign that in many important ways this community is too small for its own good. 

There are so many really good reviewers out there-- Rain Taxi does very well in finding thoughtful reviewers.  I don't know why the Times can't do better.

Suzanne Burns

========================== 


I agree.  Logan's certainly highly intelligent, and if one can wade through the show-off rhetoric; the shock-jock outrageousness, condescension and snideness; the laughably limited range of taste, there are many nuggets of fine criticism.  And it can be refreshing to see him puncture a few overinflated balloons.  But why bother, when in fact there are so many better reviewers and critics out there?


Logan and his admirers appear to feel that any criticism that doesn't go for the jugular is mere puffery.  While there's certainly lots of puffery out there, there is also a wide territory to work in between the poles.  


So who are your favorite critics and reviewers?  


Back when he did more reviewing, Donald Hall was one of the best, I always thought.  He had no qualms about attacking what he saw as ridiculously inflated reputations (e.g. Robert Penn Warren and Robert Lowell), but he was equally fond of ferreting out the underappreciated (e.g. Thomas McGrath) and composing judicious praise.  Neither puffery nor slash-and-burn.



Hall's a better prose stylist, too, for that matter:  Logan's only got one or two arrows in his quiver, both derived utterly from Randall Jarrell.  



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================








= 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Apr 13 14:16:55 2007
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:16:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
Message-ID: <aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com>

Well, this is meaty:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html

Money quote:

"National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by promoting
examples of the art form at its most bland and its most morally "positive."
The message is: *Poetry is good for you*. But, unfortunately, promoting
poetry as if it were an "easy listening" station just reinforces the idea
that poetry is culturally irrelevant and has done a disservice not only to
poetry deemed too controversial or difficult to promote but also to the
poetry it puts forward in this way. "Accessibility" has become a kind of
Moral Imperative based on the condescending notion that readers are
intellectually challenged, and mustn't be presented with anything but Safe
Poetry. As if poetry will turn people off to poetry."


Thoughts?

Gleefully,

Suzanne Burns
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 16:17:27 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:17:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Conversation Pieces: Poems That Talk to Other
	Poems
In-Reply-To: <Kilauea158967-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
References: <Kilauea158967-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
Message-ID: <8C94C1FE3F28E77-A2C-5900@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Conversation Pieces: Poems That Talk to Other Poems


If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://www.aaknopf.com/enewsletter/poetry07/12_conversation.html 


 

 In the introduction to CONVERSATION PIECES: Poems That Talk to Other Poems, editors Kurt Brown and Harold Schechter write, "In much lyric poetry, as Helen Vendler observes, we are, in effect, listening to the voice of a solitary poet addressing someone unseen, 'someone not in the room'?a lover, a patron, a lost friend or family member. In the poems collected here, that invisible someone is another poet. As we read we can hear one artist talk back to another in admiration or exasperation, praise or mockery, gentle rebuke or bitter disagreement. The monologue is suddenly transformed into a dialogue, the solitary meditation into an impassioned debate, the soliloquy into a conversation conducted across space and time." The unusual and enriching collection they've compiled is made up of pairings like the one below, in which a contemporary poem by James Longenbach "answers" the 16th-century love complaint of Sir Thomas Wyatt. 





 "They Flee from Me That Sometime Did Me Seek" 

They flee from me that sometime did me seek
    With naked foot stalking in my chamber.
I have seen them gentle tame and meek
    That now are wild and do not remember
    That sometime they put themselves in danger
To take bread at my hand; and now they range
Busily seeking with continual change. 

Thank'd be fortune, it hath been otherwise
    Twenty times better; but once in special,
In thin array after a pleasant guise,
    When her loose gown from her shoulders did fall,
    And she caught me in her arms long and small,
Therewith all sweetly did me kiss,
And softly said, Dear heart, how like you this? 

It was no dream: I lay broad waking.
    But all is turned from my gentleness
Into a strange fashion of forsaking;
    And I have leave to go of her goodness,
    And she also to use new-fangleness.
But since that I so kindely am served,
I would fain know what she hath deserved. 


Sir Thomas Wyatt (1503-42) 






Before Time 

On one or two occasions
It was different: she lingered 

At the window, turned?I was
Desirable because for a moment 

I was anybody. The distance
Seemed to disappear without us
Moving but more than what followed 

I remember the open window.
Taxis idling by the park.
Streetlights shining 

Through the hemlock and the usual sounds
Of traffic, shouts?all of it
Starkly present and at the same time 

Incomplete; as if a space I'd never
Wanted had been filled 

At the moment
I wanted it: branches 

Swirling at the window as
Her clothing dropped
To the floor. If I have chance 

To thank for this moment
I'd like to know what she deserved. 


James Longenbach (1959?) 

 





KEEP CLICKING:

 About CONVERSATION PIECES

About Everyman's Library Pocket Poet Editions

About DRAFT OF A LETTER, the latest collection by James Longenbach

PLUS:

ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

 Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD or W. S. Dipiero's CHINESE APPLES (please note delivery will take 2-3 weeks)

If you're in in the New York City area on April 16th, don't miss a special poetry month event at the Strand bookstore with Brad Leithauser and Paul Muldoon.

Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 



     










"They Flee from Me That Sometime Did Me Seek" excerpted from CONVERSATION PIECES. Copyright ? 2007 by Everyman's Library. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

"Before Time" excerpted from CONVERSATION PIECES, originally appeared in FLEET RIVER by James Longenbach. Copyright ? 2003 by The University of Chicago Press. Excerpted by permission of The University of Chicago Press. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
 
 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Apr 13 18:41:58 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:41:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com
Message-ID: <005e01c77e1c$f52400f0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Well, this is meaty:

  http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html

  The sad thing about the quotation, and the essay, is that so many of us have been saying the same thing for years and gotten nowhere.  Oh, well, nice to know someone like Bernstein who might actually be read by a few members of the general public is still blitzing the Academy of American Poets (though, ironically, he'll almost certainly be a member of it one of these days).

  Bernstein suggests having an anti-poetry month.  I'd prefer an Innovative Literature Month.  I know nothing could be more unAmerican and sure not to happen, still . . .

  --Bob
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Apr 13 18:00:40 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:00:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Conversation Pieces: Poems That Talk to Other
	Poems
In-Reply-To: <8C94C1FE3F28E77-A2C-5900@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Kilauea158967-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C94C1FE3F28E77-A2C-5900@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <461FFD88.4080109@opus40.org>

One of my favorites, by Annie Finch:

Sir, I am not a bird of prey:

a Lady does not seize the day.

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~afinch/mistress.htm



jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> Sent: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
> Subject: Conversation Pieces: Poems That Talk to Other Poems
>
> If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit 
> http://www.aaknopf.com/enewsletter/poetry07/12_conversation.html 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQR0E5>
>
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0IEM0Ey> 	
> 	 
>
> 	In the introduction to /CONVERSATION PIECES: Poems That Talk to Other 
> Poems/ 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQO0E2>, 
> editors Kurt Brown and Harold Schechter write, "In much lyric poetry, 
> as Helen Vendler observes, we are, in effect, listening to the voice 
> of a solitary poet addressing someone unseen, 'someone not in the 
> room'?a lover, a patron, a lost friend or family member. In the poems 
> collected here, that invisible someone is another poet. As we read we 
> can hear one artist talk back to another in admiration or 
> exasperation, praise or mockery, gentle rebuke or bitter disagreement. 
> The monologue is suddenly transformed into a dialogue, the solitary 
> meditation into an impassioned debate, the soliloquy into a 
> conversation conducted across space and time." The unusual and 
> enriching collection they've compiled is made up of pairings like the 
> one below, in which a contemporary poem by James Longenbach "answers" 
> the 16th-century love complaint of Sir Thomas Wyatt.
>
>
>
> 	*"They Flee from Me That Sometime Did Me Seek"*
>
> They flee from me that sometime did me seek
>     With naked foot stalking in my chamber.
> I have seen them gentle tame and meek
>     That now are wild and do not remember
>     That sometime they put themselves in danger
> To take bread at my hand; and now they range
> Busily seeking with continual change.
>
> Thank'd be fortune, it hath been otherwise
>     Twenty times better; but once in special,
> In thin array after a pleasant guise,
>     When her loose gown from her shoulders did fall,
>     And she caught me in her arms long and small,
> Therewith all sweetly did me kiss,
> And softly said, /Dear heart, how like you this?/
>
> It was no dream: I lay broad waking.
>     But all is turned from my gentleness
> Into a strange fashion of forsaking;
>     And I have leave to go of her goodness,
>     And she also to use new-fangleness.
> But since that I so kindely am served,
> I would fain know what she hath deserved.
>
>
> Sir Thomas Wyatt (1503-42)
>
>
>
>
> *Before Time*
>
> On one or two occasions
> It was different: she lingered
>
> At the window, turned?I was
> Desirable because for a moment
>
> I was anybody. The distance
> Seemed to disappear without us
> Moving but more than what followed
>
> I remember the open window.
> Taxis idling by the park.
> Streetlights shining
>
> Through the hemlock and the usual sounds
> Of traffic, shouts?all of it
> Starkly present and at the same time
>
> Incomplete; as if a space I'd never
> Wanted had been filled
>
> At the moment
> I wanted it: branches
>
> Swirling at the window as
> Her clothing dropped
> To the floor. If I have chance
>
> To thank for this moment
> I'd like to know what she deserved.
>
>
> James Longenbach (1959?)
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
> *KEEP CLICKING*:
>
> About CONVERSATION PIECES
>
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQO0E2>About 
> Everyman's Library Pocket Poet Editions 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zCz0EW>
>
> About DRAFT OF A LETTER, the latest collection by James Longenbach 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQP0E3>
>
> *PLUS*:
>
> ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0y6C0EN>
>
> Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD or 
> W. S. Dipiero's CHINESE APPLES <http://www.randomhouse.com/signed/> 
> (please note delivery will take 2-3 weeks)
>
> If you're in in the New York City area on April 16th, don't miss a 
> special poetry month event 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQQ0E4> at 
> the Strand bookstore with Brad Leithauser and Paul Muldoon.
>
> Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf 
> Poem-a-Day archive. 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zZe0EY>
>
>
>
> 	    	<http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQO0E2>
>
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsJb0DXKYc0Wa0zQO0E2>
>
>
>
>
>
> "They Flee from Me That Sometime Did Me Seek" excerpted from 
> CONVERSATION PIECES. Copyright ? 2007 by Everyman's Library. Excerpted 
> by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All 
> rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or 
> reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.
>
> "Before Time" excerpted from CONVERSATION PIECES, originally appeared 
> in FLEET RIVER by James Longenbach. Copyright ? 2003 by The University 
> of Chicago Press. Excerpted by permission of The University of Chicago 
> Press. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced 
> or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.
>
> We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to 
> knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com <mailto:knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com>
>
> You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's 
> Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
> unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com 
> <mailto:unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>. Or if you received 
> this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to 
> sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com 
> <mailto:sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>.
> 	
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Apr 13 19:02:52 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:02:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com
Message-ID: <007e01c77e1f$df6654e0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  Well, this is meaty:

  URL of Bernstein essay I deleted because my computer won't let me transmit URLS.

  The sad thing about the quotation, and the essay, is that so many of us have been saying the same thing for years and gotten nowhere.  Oh, well, nice to know someone like Bernstein who might actually be read by a few members of the general public is still blitzing the Academy of American Poets (though, ironically, he'll almost certainly be a member of it one of these days).

  Bernstein suggests having an anti-poetry month.  I'd prefer an Innovative Literature Month.  I know nothing could be more unAmerican and sure not to happen, still . . .

  --Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Apr 13 19:36:25 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:36:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com
	007e01c77e1f$df6654e0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc
Message-ID: <00a201c77e24$8f096af0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Oops, now my computer IS apparently letting me send URLs out.  Sorry for the duplicate.  The first took a while to get posted, so I thought it hadn't been.

--Bob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 6:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month


    Well, this is meaty:

    URL of Bernstein essay I deleted because my computer won't let me transmit URLS.

    The sad thing about the quotation, and the essay, is that so many of us have been saying the same thing for years and gotten nowhere.  Oh, well, nice to know someone like Bernstein who might actually be read by a few members of the general public is still blitzing the Academy of American Poets (though, ironically, he'll almost certainly be a member of it one of these days).

    Bernstein suggests having an anti-poetry month.  I'd prefer an Innovative Literature Month.  I know nothing could be more unAmerican and sure not to happen, still . . .

    --Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Apr 14 00:03:17 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:03:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA108194-9E88-4D58-91EC-A4D6E801A9C0@ripon.edu>

Well, I'll venture one thought:  Bernstein's essay is very old news  
in several ways, starting with its copyright date:  1999.  But even  
if you missed it 8 years ago, you've read it all before.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



On Apr 13, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:

> Well, this is meaty:
>
> http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html
>
> Money quote:
>
> "National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by  
> promoting examples of the art form at its most bland and its most  
> morally "positive." The message is: Poetry is good for you. But,  
> unfortunately, promoting poetry as if it were an "easy listening"  
> station just reinforces the idea that poetry is culturally  
> irrelevant and has done a disservice not only to poetry deemed too  
> controversial or difficult to promote but also to the poetry it  
> puts forward in this way. "Accessibility" has become a kind of  
> Moral Imperative based on the condescending notion that readers are  
> intellectually challenged, and mustn't be presented with anything  
> but Safe Poetry. As if poetry will turn people off to poetry."
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Gleefully,
>
> Suzanne Burns
> _______________________________________________

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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 14 05:35:07 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 04:35:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com
	<005e01c77e1c$f52400f0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002a01c77e78$3098bd00$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

And it was published in 1999...

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 5:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month



   
    Well, this is meaty:

    http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html

    The sad thing about the quotation, and the essay, is that so many of us have been saying the same thing for years and gotten nowhere.  Oh, well, nice to know someone like Bernstein who might actually be read by a few members of the general public is still blitzing the Academy of American Poets (though, ironically, he'll almost certainly be a member of it one of these days).

    Bernstein suggests having an anti-poetry month.  I'd prefer an Innovative Literature Month.  I know nothing could be more unAmerican and sure not to happen, still . . .

    --Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 09:31:08 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 08:31:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: aa458fec0704131116g777e03a2qa1459226e8fb44c2@mail.gmail.com<005e01c77e1c$f52400f0$f1fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	002a01c77e78$3098bd00$0201a8c0@LindaSue
Message-ID: <002e01c77e99$2b6f9ee0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

And it was published in 1999

...lsg

Right, but he's not withdrawn it!

And, hey, he uses my term, "otherstream!"  Ergo: brilliant essay!

--Bob G.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 10:33:08 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:33:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <FA108194-9E88-4D58-91EC-A4D6E801A9C0@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Yeah!  Because anything written more than eight years ago has nothing to say to me ... or any of of us!

Actually, the essay is still quite relevant, and unfortunately, Bernstein's sentiment hasn't been widespread enough, in any sense of the word ... I don't know who this "you" is who has "read it all before" as David notes, save poets on listservs who find themselves 'beyond' such thinking, but from I've seen, the poets who do call attention to the capitalist thrust of poetry, that which touts the sappy song of simple sentiment, and criticize it are too few and far between.  

Where is the indignant response of poets that calls attention to the very  machinery that only allows for the "major" publication of the stuff noted above and or anything "edgy" that can be easily absorbed?  The underbelly of the beast is that the poetry that doesn't suit the masses is ignored, not distributed, and even suppressed in some cases.  But I suppose it's passe to be angry about such things?  No one wants an angry poet anymore, right?  How old hat!  A poet that notes some injustice, in its multiple manifestations, in any effective way or has a  not-traditionally-life-affirming take will be largely ignored and denied the big prizes down the line, no matter how good at craft and dedicated he or she is.  The public beyond the poets' realm will never know ... 

Not since Ginsberg has there been a public poet that created ripples and tears in the cultural fabric ... can anyone think of another?  Angelou with her inaugural poem?  I can't recall; did that poem incite response?  Call attention to anything untoward within the culture?  Are poets in other countries still looked to for vision?  Consulted in public matters?  Respected?  Or are they second-rate pop idols we pin notes about on bus and subway banners now and then?  "That's a cute poem about the kid who lost his tooth ... my Timmy lost his tooth the other day ... I should copy that down!"  

It seems that poets don't want to appear disagreeable in the face of that money-making machinery anymore because we might not get a grant or a job or whatever is required for our livelihood.  Or we might appear uncool somehow if we agree?  So it's easier to mock or dismiss the naysayer, the one who doesn't go along with the machinery that makes and breaks the public function of poetry, a very tenuous position anyway, so why not go with the National Poetry Month flow - and get safe with it, remain insular, etc.?

The cost is buying into the illusion of the promise of the capitalist machine -- you too could sell your poetry books in a BIG way once you write enough popular and pretty sentiment!  You'll earn your living making the reading rounds, raking in profit checks from book sales, etc. (good luck on that one) or you will tag a job at a nice university.  But, the model is similar to the pop music industry - and the poetry will be as watered down and much less popular/distributed than those songs and tours - and poetry will remain on its relegated fringe.  So what has your poetry ultimately done in the world when you're in that Billy Collins' position?  Yes, you've kept your mouth shut, affirmed popular sentiment, but what changes has your poetry made?  How has your poetry served the public-at-large?  


David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: Well, I'll venture one thought:  Bernstein's essay is very old news in several ways, starting with its copyright date:  1999.  But even if you missed it 8 years ago, you've read it all before.
 


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



 

On Apr 13, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:

Well, this is meaty:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html

Money quote:

"National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by promoting examples of the art form at its most bland and its most morally "positive." The message is: Poetry is good for you. But, unfortunately, promoting poetry as if it were an "easy listening" station just reinforces the idea that poetry is culturally irrelevant and has done a disservice not only to poetry deemed too controversial or difficult to promote but also to the poetry it puts forward in this way. "Accessibility" has become a kind of Moral Imperative based on the condescending notion that readers are intellectually challenged, and mustn't be presented with anything but Safe Poetry. As if poetry will turn people off to poetry."


Thoughts?

Gleefully,

Suzanne Burns
_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 14 11:25:26 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:25:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4620F266.2050101@opus40.org>

I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's 
actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover that 
mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main stream. I don't 
have any particular problem with National Poetry Month, any more than 
with Black History Month or Earth Day.

My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is (a) 
try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular, or (b) wear your 
fringe status as a badge of honor, which is actually what all poets have 
to do anyway, because all of poetry is a fringe activity, National 
Poetry Month or no.

amy king wrote:
> Yeah!  Because anything written more than eight years ago has nothing 
> to say to me ... or any of of us!
>
> Actually, the essay is still quite relevant, and unfortunately, 
> Bernstein's sentiment hasn't been widespread enough, in any sense of 
> the word ... I don't know who this "you" is who has "read it all 
> before" as David notes, save poets on listservs who find themselves 
> 'beyond' such thinking, but from I've seen, the poets who do call 
> attention to the capitalist thrust of poetry, that which touts the 
> sappy song of simple sentiment, and criticize it are too few and far 
> between. 
>
> Where is the indignant response of poets that calls attention to the 
> very  machinery that only allows for the "major" publication of the 
> stuff noted above and or anything "edgy" that can be easily absorbed?  
> The underbelly of the beast is that the poetry that doesn't suit the 
> masses is ignored, not distributed, and even suppressed in some 
> cases.  But I suppose it's passe to be angry about such things?  No 
> one wants an angry poet anymore, right?  How old hat!  A poet that 
> notes some injustice, in its multiple manifestations, in any effective 
> way or has a  not-traditionally-life-affirming take will be largely 
> ignored and denied the big prizes down the line, no matter how good at 
> craft and dedicated he or she is.  The public beyond the poets' realm 
> will never know ...
>
> Not since Ginsberg has there been a public poet that created ripples 
> and tears in the cultural fabric ... can anyone think of another?  
> Angelou with her inaugural poem?  I can't recall; did that poem incite 
> response?  Call attention to anything untoward within the culture?  
> Are poets in other countries still looked to for vision?  Consulted in 
> public matters?  Respected?  Or are they second-rate pop idols we pin 
> notes about on bus and subway banners now and then?  "That's a cute 
> poem about the kid who lost his tooth ... my Timmy lost his tooth the 
> other day ... I should copy that down!"
>
> It seems that poets don't want to appear disagreeable in the face of 
> that money-making machinery anymore because we might not get a grant 
> or a job or whatever is required for our livelihood.  Or we might 
> appear uncool somehow if we agree?  So it's easier to mock or dismiss 
> the naysayer, the one who doesn't go along with the machinery that 
> makes and breaks the public function of poetry, a very tenuous 
> position anyway, so why not go with the National Poetry Month flow - 
> and get safe with it, remain insular, etc.?
>
> The cost is buying into the illusion of the promise of the capitalist 
> machine -- you too could sell your poetry books in a BIG way once you 
> write enough popular and pretty sentiment!  You'll earn your living 
> making the reading rounds, raking in profit checks from book sales, 
> etc. (good luck on that one) or you will tag a job at a nice 
> university.  But, the model is similar to the pop music industry - and 
> the poetry will be as watered down and much less popular/distributed 
> than those songs and tours - and poetry will remain on its relegated 
> fringe.  So what has your poetry ultimately done in the world when 
> you're in that Billy Collins' position?  Yes, you've kept your mouth 
> shut, affirmed popular sentiment, but what changes has your poetry 
> made?  How has your poetry served the public-at-large? 
>
>
> */David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>/* wrote:
>
>     Well, I'll venture one thought:  Bernstein's essay is very old
>     news in several ways, starting with its copyright date:  1999. 
>     But even if you missed it 8 years ago, you've read it all before.
>
>
>     ========================================
>     David Graham
>     grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>     Home Page:
>     http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>     Poetry Library:
>     http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>     ==========================================
>
>
>
>     On Apr 13, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:
>
>>     Well, this is meaty:
>>
>>     http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html
>>
>>     Money quote:
>>
>>     "National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by
>>     promoting examples of the art form at its most bland and its most
>>     morally "positive." The message is: /Poetry is good for you/.
>>     But, unfortunately, promoting poetry as if it were an "easy
>>     listening" station just reinforces the idea that poetry is
>>     culturally irrelevant and has done a disservice not only to
>>     poetry deemed too controversial or difficult to promote but also
>>     to the poetry it puts forward in this way. "Accessibility" has
>>     become a kind of Moral Imperative based on the condescending
>>     notion that readers are intellectually challenged, and mustn't be
>>     presented with anything but Safe Poetry. As if poetry will turn
>>     people off to poetry."
>>
>>
>>     Thoughts?
>>
>>     Gleefully,
>>
>>     Suzanne Burns
>>     _______________________________________________
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Apr 14 10:37:37 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:37:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <4620F266.2050101@opus40.org>
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4620F266.2050101@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <A8DD2E3A-D0F0-4BD8-9739-CF8ED1815431@ripon.edu>

On Apr 14, 2007, at 11:25 AM, TheOldMole wrote:
> I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's  
> actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover  
> that mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main  
> stream. I don't have any particular problem with National Poetry  
> Month, any more than with Black History Month or Earth Day.
>
> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is  
> (a) try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular, or (b)  
> wear your fringe status as a badge of honor, which is actually what  
> all poets have to do anyway, because all of poetry is a fringe  
> activity, National Poetry Month or no.
====================


I agree.  Is the Academy of American Poets keeping Americans from  
loving Ron Silliman or Lyn Hejinian--readers who would eagerly  
embrace such poetry if only they had access?

Obviously not, since transgressive, "edgy" stuff is in fact  
*intended* not to appeal to mainstream readers.  That's its reason  
for being.  Charles Bernstein needs Billy Collins and the Academy  
just as surely as every garage band requires big-name sellouts to  
define itself against.  Eventually, some aspects of whatever  
revolution occurs will seep into the mainstream, and formerly edgy  
poets embraced by the mainstream will, of course, be accused by some  
of pandering, just as whatever institution promotes them will be  
accused of tokenism.  Perhaps such accusations will even be apt.

I note that the Academy this Poetry Month has featured Ashbery,  
Perloff on Stein, Seidel, Creeley, Armantrout, and--oh boy!--Claudia  
Rankine on Lyn Hejinian.  That probably wasn't true eight years ago,  
in fact, when Bernstein's essay appeared.  We may be seeing some of  
these folks evolving mainstreamward, or we may not. But the  
prevalence of Collins or Levine over Scalapino during official  
NatPoMonth is not some grand conspiracy; it's just the way  
institutional taste works.  The wheel revolves slowly.  And more  
people *like* Collins's work.

You can dislike that fact, and if you're a teacher or other user of  
an institutional pulpit you can strive to change it, as Tad suggests,  
but good luck.  Historically, the mainstream tends to like, well,  
mainstream work.

I don't think Charles Bernstein would have it any other way, anyhow;  
if he ever were to succeed, that would be proof of failure.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================




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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Apr 14 11:54:20 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:54:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <A8DD2E3A-D0F0-4BD8-9739-CF8ED1815431@ripon.edu>
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4620F266.2050101@opus40.org>
	<A8DD2E3A-D0F0-4BD8-9739-CF8ED1815431@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704140854u154b5e58k1808bb6cb7cc4b77@mail.gmail.com>

Well said, David.  Well said.  Lazy thinking leads to easy dichotomies:
"edgy" vs. "accessible," etc.  That kind of labeling is simply a way to
sidestep thinking.

I can see it now:  Academy of American Poet Commandos storming bookstores
and burning copies of The Maximus Poems & Z & building altars to Ted Kooser
& Billy Collins.

Sheesh.

Jeff Newberry

On 4/14/07, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
> On Apr 14, 2007, at 11:25 AM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
> I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's
> actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover that
> mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main stream. I don't have
> any particular problem with National Poetry Month, any more than with Black
> History Month or Earth Day.
>
> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is (a)
> try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular, or (b) wear your
> fringe status as a badge of honor, which is actually what all poets have to
> do anyway, because all of poetry is a fringe activity, National Poetry Month
> or no.
>
> ====================
>
>
> I agree.  Is the Academy of American Poets keeping Americans from loving
> Ron Silliman or Lyn Hejinian--readers who would eagerly embrace such poetry
> if only they had access?
> Obviously not, since transgressive, "edgy" stuff is in fact *intended* not
> to appeal to mainstream readers.  That's its reason for being.  Charles
> Bernstein needs Billy Collins and the Academy just as surely as every garage
> band requires big-name sellouts to define itself against.  Eventually, some
> aspects of whatever revolution occurs will seep into the mainstream, and
> formerly edgy poets embraced by the mainstream will, of course, be accused
> by some of pandering, just as whatever institution promotes them will be
> accused of tokenism.  Perhaps such accusations will even be apt.
>
> I note that the Academy this Poetry Month has featured Ashbery, Perloff on
> Stein, Seidel, Creeley, Armantrout, and--oh boy!--Claudia Rankine on Lyn
> Hejinian.  That probably wasn't true eight years ago, in fact, when
> Bernstein's essay appeared.  We may be seeing some of these folks evolving
> mainstreamward, or we may not. But the prevalence of Collins or Levine over
> Scalapino during official NatPoMonth is not some grand conspiracy; it's just
> the way institutional taste works.  The wheel revolves slowly.  And more
> people *like* Collins's work.
>
> You can dislike that fact, and if you're a teacher or other user of an
> institutional pulpit you can strive to change it, as Tad suggests, but good
> luck.  Historically, the mainstream tends to like, well, mainstream work.
>
> I don't think Charles Bernstein would have it any other way, anyhow; if he
> ever were to succeed, that would be proof of failure.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 14:44:51 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <FA108194-9E88-4D58-91EC-A4D6E801A9C0@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Um, no, that's not the kind of simplistic dichotomous thinking I was promoting, Jeff, but it's a convenient deduction to support such a silly analogy (i.e. 'storming the bookstores to burn popular books') that reduces and distracts from my original response regarding addressing the more complex issue of what's at stake when it comes to promoting poetry in the mainstream fashion -- Show me up for a "lazy thinker" who is 'sidestepping thinking' ... that's *your* innovative thinking?  That's engaging with and addressing the issue at hand?  That's extending yourself as a poet and putting forth some suggestions of how poetry might rattle a bit?  Better to call me a lazy thinker than to address what's at stake, personally and publicly, when examining what, exactly, the Academy is promoting, how they're promoting it, what gets left out, how money in the po' business is actually used, the effect such use has on the barometer of poetry, how the Academy might use the tradition of
 poetry as a tool that incites, reflects unpopular sentiment, etc. -- even questioning such mechanics is difficult ...

As David elaborates on and I noted earlier, the mainstream has ways of absorbing poetry so that even the 'edgy' or uncomfortable stuff is watered down or ultimately dismissed - so that it doesn't threaten.  Eventually, some of it, when it's no longer so threatening to 'public thought' (& ease) can move in.  And poets seem to be okay, or at least, apathetic about this process.  

Do we not have any historical models to build from?  Any alternatives to the Academy's poetry month that go beyond Jeff's call for insulated attacks that involve donning army boots?  
We can put more energy into mocking someone who has taken the time at least to point at the issue and calling for something to be done, than to actually consider a response to the way the machine works (yes, it's a simplistic metaphor, but convenient for list purposes).  It's more convenient and 'uplifting' (in that fleeting unsubstantial way) to counter how Bernstein's essay, still unpulled after - gasp - nine years, is old news that we've certainly understood and gone beyond.  Excuse me, where have we moved beyond it exactly?  We've found ways to suppress the questioning (& in turn, defeat ourselves), much in the same way certain right wing mainstream thinkers can call feminists 'cows' so that they don't have to actually engage with the issues the cows raise.  The answer on this list seems to be that that's just the way it is - business as usual; the mainstream exists because it does, because most people like what's popular and that's that, and to discuss it or suggest a
 response not to accept the way the mainstream promotes is quid pro quo.  I mean 'look, they're letting in Hejinian and whomever else is considered innovative now" is an answer?  A suggestion?  Seems to me to be an acceptance of 'the way the world of poetry works'  as 'natural', as well as a call to laugh at and find ways to negate anything that goes in the face of that acceptance, however passive or defended, even if it means calling fellow poets 'sidestepping thinkers' and making up bad bogus analogies as a put down ... 

Sheesh, indeed.

Amy King

Brooklyn and NYC people, please find an announcement below --

Jeff Newberry      jeff.newberry at gmail.com        
     Sat Apr 14 11:54:20 EDT 2007          
---------------------------------
    
Well said, David.  Well said.  Lazy thinking leads to easy dichotomies:
"edgy" vs. "accessible," etc.  That kind of labeling is simply a way to
sidestep thinking.

I can see it now:  Academy of American Poet Commandos storming bookstores
and burning copies of The Maximus Poems & Z & building altars to Ted Kooser
& Billy Collins.

Sheesh.

Jeff Newberry






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Unnameable Books <unnameablebooks at earthlink.net>
Date: Apr 14, 2007 2:50 PM
Subject: Unnameable Books: Contrarian April
To: Unnameable Books <unnameablebooks at earthlink.net>









  
  Dear friends of UNNAMEABLE BOOKS: 
  Because it is April, we will start this month's newsletter with a poem:  
  -----   
I DON'T EVEN KNOW IT   
-----  
Roses are rose   
and violets are violet.   
April is National Poetry Month   
and I am not a nationalist.   
-----  
  In order to most effectively protest National Poetry Month, we will be having a month-long sale -- 10% OFF!! -- all books that are UNRELATED TO POETRY OR POETICS. 
  To claim your discount on any such book, you must present a compelling argument that no poem has ever touched upon subjects or themes related to the book you wish to purchase.  I, Adam, am the final arbiter as to the validity of all arguments.
  ----- 
  In other news, totally unrelated to National Poetry Month, we have two readings coming up, both of which I'm personally excited about:
  ----- 
  1.   FRIDAY, APRIL 20, at 8 PM:  
  KATE COLBY, author of FRUITLANDS, has won a grand award for her book from the Poetry Society of America.  This has nothing to do with National Poetry Month, and everything to do with her excellent book FRUITLANDS, which is named after a 19th-century Transcendentalist utopian community co-founded by Louisa May Alcott's father -- and published by our neighbors over at Litmus Press.   As you may know, we at Unnameable Books have a certain fondness for both utopian communities and the following fragment of one of Ms. Colby's poems:
  ***  
  (Scene One) a crystal ball   
reveals only its own interior   
of transubstantiated sand,   
leaded, dead and circuitous  
  hocus corpus: here is my body  
  ***  
  So Litmus Press and we together are hosting a party, here at Unnameable Books, a party to celebrate KATE COLBY and her prize-winning writing of FRUITLANDS.   The author herself will make an appearance & a reading, amid the usual wine and cheese.   
  Please do come.    
That's FRIDAY, APRIL 20, 8 PM.  KATE COLBY.    
We like her book, and so does the Poetry Society of America.  
  -----  
  2.   
TAO LIN!  TAO LIN!  TAO LIN!   
On Thursday, May 3, at 8 pm,  
  TAO LIN, who's RED HOT, has TWO BOOKS coming out:  EEEEE EEE EEEE and BED.  
  One of them is a novel, and one a book of short stories.  According to a review in Time Out magazine, the novel is about Andrew, "a Domino?s delivery boy trapped in a bland suburbia populated by talking and teleporting bears, moose and dolphins that murder celebrities such as Elijah Wood and Salman Rushdie."  I guess that "Eeeee Eee Eeee" is the sound that dolphins make, but it's also the title of the novel.  The other book is called "Bed."  I have read Tao Lin's book of poetry and also his blog, and I can tell you this:  Tao Lin is young and RED HOT.  You will never forgive yourself if you fail to come to this reading.
  TAO LIN: Thursday, May 3, 8 pm.   
See his poem below.  
  -----  
  There will be more readings in May, June, July, August, September etc....Camille Guthrie, Erika Howsare, Shelley Jackson, Geoffrey Jacques, Tim Peterson, Sarah Riggs, Christopher Stackhouse, Jen Tynes, Lynn Xu  AND MORE!  will be visiting us.
  Watch this space for details:  
  .  
  -----  
  If you can't make it to our readings, you should visit the store anyway.  We have some other books here, too, some good ones.  I'll tell you all about them, if you ask.  
  ----- 
  All best to all,   
Adam (the unnameable)   
Unnameable Books   
456 Bergen St.
Brooklyn, NY
www.unnameablebooks.net   
unnameablebooks at earthlink.net   
(718) 789 1534  
  -----  
***  
 Unnameable Books  
[formerly "Adam's"]  
456 Bergen St.  
Brooklyn, NY 11217  
unnameablebooks at earthlink.net  
(718) 789-1534  
www.unnameablebooks.net  
***  
  Amazon, schmamazon -- order your books from the Unnameable!   
We'll give you 20% off, and can ship directly to you or your giftee.   
We can order any book in print, and ship anywhere in the U.S.  
  ***  
  
 


amy king 
    amyhappens at yahoo.com
       

    Sat Apr 14 10:33:08 EDT 2007    

---------------------------------
    Yeah!  Because anything written more than eight years ago has nothing to say to me ... or any of of us!  

Actually, the essay is still quite relevant, and unfortunately, Bernstein's sentiment hasn't been widespread enough, in any sense of the word ... I don't know who this "you" is who has "read it all before" as David notes, save poets on listservs who find themselves 'beyond' such thinking, but from I've seen, the poets who do call attention to the capitalist thrust of poetry, that which touts the sappy song of simple sentiment, and criticize it are too few and far between.    

Where is the indignant response of poets that calls attention to the very  machinery that only allows for the "major" publication of the stuff noted above and or anything "edgy" that can be easily absorbed?  The underbelly of the beast is that the poetry that doesn't suit the masses is ignored, not distributed, and even suppressed in some cases.  But I suppose it's passe to be angry about such things?  No one wants an angry poet anymore, right?  How old hat!  A poet that notes some injustice, in its multiple manifestations, in any effective way or has a  not-traditionally-life-affirming take will be largely ignored and denied the big prizes down the line, no matter how good at craft and dedicated he or she is.  The public beyond the poets' realm will never know ...   

Not since Ginsberg has there been a public poet that created ripples and tears in the cultural fabric ... can anyone think of another?  Angelou with her inaugural poem?  I can't recall; did that poem incite response?  Call attention to anything untoward within the culture?  Are poets in other countries still looked to for vision?  Consulted in public matters?  Respected?  Or are they second-rate pop idols we pin notes about on bus and subway banners now and then?  "That's a cute poem about the kid who lost his tooth ... my Timmy lost his tooth the other day ... I should copy that down!"    

It seems that poets don't want to appear disagreeable in the face of that money-making machinery anymore because we might not get a grant or a job or whatever is required for our livelihood.  Or we might appear uncool somehow if we agree?  So it's easier to mock or dismiss the naysayer, the one who doesn't go along with the machinery that makes and breaks the public function of poetry, a very tenuous position anyway, so why not go with the National Poetry Month flow - and get safe with it, remain insular, etc.?  

The cost is buying into the illusion of the promise of the capitalist machine -- you too could sell your poetry books in a BIG way once you write enough popular and pretty sentiment!  You'll earn your living making the reading rounds, raking in profit checks from book sales, etc. (good luck on that one) or you will tag a job at a nice university.  But, the model is similar to the pop music industry - and the poetry will be as watered down and much less popular/distributed than those songs and tours - and poetry will remain on its relegated fringe.  So what has your poetry ultimately done in the world when you're in that Billy Collins' position?  Yes, you've kept your mouth shut, affirmed popular sentiment, but what changes has your poetry made?  How has your poetry served the public-at-large?     



David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: 
Well, I'll venture one thought:  Bernstein's essay is very old news in several ways, starting with its copyright date:  1999.  But even if you missed it 8 years ago, you've read it all before.     ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

==========================================       On Apr 13, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:  Well, this is meaty:  http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html  

Money quote:  "National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by promoting examples of the art form at its most bland and its most morally "positive." The message is: Poetry is good for you. But, unfortunately, promoting poetry as if it were an "easy listening" station just reinforces the idea that poetry is culturally irrelevant and has done a disservice not only to poetry deemed too controversial or difficult to promote but also to the poetry it puts forward in this way. "Accessibility" has become a kind of Moral Imperative based on the condescending notion that readers are intellectually challenged, and mustn't be presented with anything but Safe Poetry. As if poetry will turn people off to poetry."   Thoughts?  Gleefully,  Suzanne Burns
       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Apr 14 14:42:53 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:42:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu>

Just to be clear on my own take on one matter:  I wouldn't say that  
mainstream absorption of "edgy" work is best described with metaphors  
of diminishment, "watering down" and the like.  I suppose my own  
metaphor would be something more like grafting on new stock to old  
growth--i.e. an addition to available reality, not automatically a  
diminishment of anything.

Much of the revolutionary edge of Eliot, Pound, Williams, Stein,  
Moore & others was eventually absorbed into the mainstream, yes, but  
that's because it ultimately changed the mainstream, however slightly  
under eternity's aspect.  Or however balefully, according to one's  
taste.

As to models for opposing The Academy's promotional efforts, I think  
we not only have a great model, but a functional system that's been  
in place for a good while:  the worldwide web.  It's probably too  
soon to make big historical predictions, but it seems that, generally  
speaking, "edgy" work has a much higher profile these days than in  
the pre-web era.  The net has democratized things in some key ways.   
The Academy of American Poets is balanced by, among other parallel  
academies, The Electronic Poetry Center.

Even so, I don't think that deliberately transgressive academies will  
ever supplant mainstream operations like the AAP, simply because, as  
I noted before, most readers *like* mainstream stuff.  That's why  
it's mainstream.  Mainstream taste does change, of course, but slowly  
and often unpredictably.  If you're a revolutionary, probably the  
best case scenario is that you might divert the mainstream a little  
bit, over a long period of time.

I would also want to resist caricaturing mainstream poetry as merely  
"easy-listening," as Bernstein and others persistently do.  The  
common habit of arraying poetry along a spectrum from difficult/ 
challenging/innovative/honest at one end and easy/uplifting/ 
conventional/smug at the other is far too simple; and when you start  
implying that the conventional end is necessarily lesser art, that's  
just foolish.  A lot of it is, of course, but the same is true at the  
other end.

Along these lines I always think of something Carl Sagan wrote once  
about scientific innovation.  He said we must remember that they  
laughed at Edison, at Newton, at Darwin, et al.  But they also  
laughed at Bozo the Clown. . . .


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



On Apr 14, 2007, at 2:44 PM, amy king wrote:

> Um, no, that's not the kind of simplistic dichotomous thinking I  
> was promoting, Jeff, but it's a convenient deduction to support  
> such a silly analogy (i.e. 'storming the bookstores to burn popular  
> books') that reduces and distracts from my original response  
> regarding addressing the more complex issue of what's at stake when  
> it comes to promoting poetry in the mainstream fashion -- Show me  
> up for a "lazy thinker" who is 'sidestepping thinking' ... that's  
> *your* innovative thinking?  That's engagingg with and addressing  
> the issue at hand?  That's extending yourself as a poet and putting  
> forth some suggestions of how poetry might rattle a bit?  Better to  
> call me a lazy thinker than to address what's at stake, personally  
> and publicly, when examining what, exactly, the Academy is  
> promoting, how they're promoting it, what gets left out, how money  
> in the po' business is actually used, the effect such use has on  
> the barometer of poetry, how the Academy might use the tradition of  
> poetry as a tool that incites, reflects unpopular sentiment, etc.  
> -- even questioning such mechanics is difficult ...
>
> As David elaborates on and I noted earlier, the mainstream has  
> wayss of absorbing poetry so that even the 'edgy' or uncomfortable  
> stuff is watered down or ultimately dismissed - so that it doesn't  
> threaten.  Eventually, some of it, when it's no longer so  
> threatening to 'public thought' (& ease) can move in.  And poets  
> seem to be okay, or at least, apathetic about this process.
>
> Do we not have any historical models to build from?  Any  
> alternatives to the Academy's poetry month that go beyond Jeff's  
> call for insulated attacks that involve donning army boots?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 16:55:55 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:55:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	4620F266.2050101@opus40.org
Message-ID: <007501c77ed7$5d80f7b0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's 
> actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover that 
> mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main stream.

Agreed.

> I don't  have any particular problem with National Poetry Month, any more 
> than with Black History Month or Earth Day.

Earth Day is fine with me.

> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is (a) 
> try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular,

Not make ourselves popular so much as make our existence recognized--and I 
can't see any other way to do that than by constantly yelling, however 
boringly, "we exist, too!"

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 17:28:28 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:28:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4620F266.2050101@opus40.org><A8DD2E3A-D0F0-4BD8-9739-CF8ED1815431@ripon.
	edu> 731bb17a0704140854u154b5e58k1808bb6cb7cc4b77@mail.gmail.com
Message-ID: <008401c77edb$d9fb9670$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

David Graham, aggreeing with the Mole:

I agree.  Is the Academy of American Poets keeping Americans from loving Ron Silliman or Lyn Hejinian--readers who would eagerly embrace such poetry if only they had access?  

    The Academy is certainly instrumental in preventing newer forms of poetry from BEING SEEN.  There are only so many bookstore bookshelves, and so many literature textbooks used in compulsory formal education and so many grant dollars.  Can anyone really believe that if the Academy suddenly started pointing out poetry using techniques not standard fifty years or more ago that NO ONE would turn to the newer stuff (as they are very tentatively starting to do with language poetry by women, political correctness making up for disloyalty to the status quo) nor any poet not doing standard poetry benefit?  Aside from that, can anyone believe that NONE of the newer forms of poetry won't be popular fifty years from now?  If so, why shouldn't the Academy help people to such poetry, for the sake of the future--and for the sake of the poets making such poetry instead of for the sake of the academics now making good livings off poets like Pound, Stevens and Whitman, who never benefited financially from their poetry to any significant degree?


    Obviously not, since transgressive, "edgy" stuff is in fact *intended* not to appeal to mainstream readers.

    Nonsense.  While some language poetry and various strands of dada and contragenteel poetry and the like may be intended to not appeal to mainstreamers, much otherstream poetry hopes for the same kind of intelligent readers Whitman, Pound and Stevens now have.  

    That's its reason for being.  Charles Bernstein needs Billy Collins and the Academy just as surely as every garage band requires big-name sellouts to define itself against.  Eventually, some aspects of whatever revolution occurs will seep into the mainstream, and formerly edgy poets embraced by the mainstream will, of course, be accused by some of pandering, just as whatever institution promotes them will be accused of tokenism.  Perhaps such accusations will even be apt. 


    I note that the Academy this Poetry Month has featured Ashbery, Perloff on Stein, Seidel, Creeley, Armantrout, and--oh boy!--Claudia Rankine on Lyn Hejinian.  That probably wasn't true eight years ago, in fact, when Bernstein's essay appeared.  We may be seeing some of these folks evolving mainstreamward, or we may not. But the prevalence of Collins or Levine over Scalapino during official NatPoMonth is not some grand conspiracy; it's just the way institutional taste works.  The wheel revolves slowly.  And more people *like* Collins's work.

    Right.  As I've been pointing out for a decade or so, language poetry has become acadominant--after thirty years or so of marginality.  So, you're right, David--complaining can finally force the estabniks to look at a movement, especially if the complainers have inflitrated universities as effectively as Bernstein and Perloff.  


    You can dislike that fact, and if you're a teacher or other user of an institutional pulpit you can strive to change it, as Tad suggests, but good luck.  Historically, the mainstream tends to like, well, mainstream work.  


    I don't think Charles Bernstein would have it any other way, anyhow; if he ever were to succeed, that would be proof of failure.

    You may be right about Bernstein, but not about the great majority of visual poets I know.

    --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 17:36:48 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:36:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu
Message-ID: <009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  I would also want to resist caricaturing mainstream poetry as merely "easy-listening," as Bernstein and others persistently do.  --David Graham

  But it is unarguably easy listening compared to language poetry and visual poetry, the latter because it is apparently hard for most people to appreciate anything, however simple, that uses two or more expressive modalities; it is also hard, apparently, for most people, to appreciate minimalism--which is intellectually easy but aesthetically difficult.

  --Bob G.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sat Apr 14 16:47:49 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:47:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <007501c77ed7$5d80f7b0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	4620F266.2050101@opus40.org
	<007501c77ed7$5d80f7b0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <46213DF5.3040509@myuw.net>

Bob G said
>> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is 
>> (a) try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular,
> 
> 
> Not make ourselves popular so much as make our existence recognized--and 
> I can't see any other way to do that than by constantly yelling, however 
> boringly, "we exist, too!"

I think there's a t-shirt design in that: "otherstream/post/avant/experimental/non-mainstream poets: We exist too!"

of course, it would have to be done with experimental typography, and if possible animated with Flash, and maybe the words "poets" and "exist" should 
be replaced by a combination of hexadecimal unicode and chinese characters.


From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 14 17:33:02 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:33:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <007501c77ed7$5d80f7b0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <53983.27941.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	4620F266.2050101@opus40.org
	<007501c77ed7$5d80f7b0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4621488E.7030904@opus40.org>

Bob -- Actually, I don't even have any problem with Bernstein or Grumman 
or King, either. Nothing like a little rock throwing to spice up any art 
form.

Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>
>> I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's 
>> actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover that 
>> mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main stream.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> I don't  have any particular problem with National Poetry Month, any 
>> more than with Black History Month or Earth Day.
>
> Earth Day is fine with me.
>
>> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is 
>> (a) try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular,
>
> Not make ourselves popular so much as make our existence 
> recognized--and I can't see any other way to do that than by 
> constantly yelling, however boringly, "we exist, too!"
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 14 17:46:31 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:46:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu
	<009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <46214BB7.5070306@opus40.org>

I'm not convinced by the argument that if fewer people respond to 
something, it must ipso facto be more challenging.

Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>     I would also want to resist caricaturing mainstream poetry as
>     merely "easy-listening," as Bernstein and others persistently do. 
>     --David Graham
>      
>     But it is unarguably easy listening compared to language poetry
>     and visual poetry, the latter because it is apparently hard for
>     most people to appreciate anything, however simple, that uses two
>     or more expressive modalities; it is also hard, apparently, for
>     most people, to appreciate minimalism--which is intellectually
>     easy but aesthetically difficult.
>      
>     --Bob G.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 19:22:01 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:22:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu<009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	46214BB7.5070306@opus40.org
Message-ID: <00b801c77eeb$b67e66e0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>     I would also want to resist caricaturing mainstream poetry as
>>     merely "easy-listening," as Bernstein and others persistently 
>> do. --David Graham
>>      But it is unarguably easy listening compared to language poetry
>>     and visual poetry, the latter because it is apparently hard for
>>     most people to appreciate anything, however simple, that uses two
>>     or more expressive modalities; it is also hard, apparently, for
>>     most people, to appreciate minimalism--which is intellectually
>>     easy but aesthetically difficult.
>>      --Bob G.

>I'm not convinced by the argument that if fewer people >respond to 
>something, it must ipso facto be more >challenging.  --the Mole

Can't see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that the 
poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he likes. 
But I would say that less people are going to like challenging poetry than 
easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like calculus than 
arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World Turns.

--Bob




From editor at pavementsaw.org  Sat Apr 14 18:25:04 2007
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <200704141515.l3EFFGUR008304@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <653754.3150.qm@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

There are more popular poets than Ginsburg, all are from other countries(and all are experimental might I add); while AG was alive Vincente Alexandre, Odysseyus Elytis and Yannis Ritsos were all at least as popular, Alexandre even more so. Currently Yevgeny Yevtushenko.  For the US, I think Jimmy Baca is probably closest. In the southwestern part of the US his books saturate the shelves. Also an experimentalist. 
   
  I also think a lot of things have substantially changed since Charles wrote that essay. 
   
  The most popular poetry blog is run by an experimentalist.
   
  One of our experimental titles (Uncontainable Noise by Steve Davenport) placed in the top 12 for the National Book Critic Circle Award. A decent amount of the book are yodels written in a unique sour-mash form. 
   
  A brand new press with no distribution won the National Book Critic Circle Award. Some may argue that the title is not experimental but this is a right angle in terms of voice when compared to those from the Wright/Bly lineage (i.e. Collins).

The number of awards given to experimental poets. Martha Ronk, Jackson MacLow, every year at least one and usually two of the five National Poetry Series winners are experimental
  on and on
   
  also the number of experimental publishers and poets who have appeared on nationally syndicated TV and Radio shows, 
   
  out of time, there is a lot 
   


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sat Apr 14 19:46:33 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:46:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <00b801c77eeb$b67e66e0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu<009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>	46214BB7.5070306@opus40.org
	<00b801c77eeb$b67e66e0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <462167D9.4060701@myuw.net>


> 
> Can't see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that 
> the poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he 
> likes. But I would say that less people are going to like challenging 
> poetry than easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like 
> calculus than arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World Turns.
> 
> --Bob

I think that's a very good point, and one that doesn't get made often enough in conversations like these. Also, I think it's worth noting that even 
though some poetry is easy listening, being easy listening doesn't make it prima facie bad. i mean, i like to think of myself very much in the 
tradition of the otherstream (a word i hadn't paid much attention to before today, but that i like quite a lot and plan to use quite a bit) and i like 
the poetry of that movement. At the same time there are poets i don't like as much, and there are some mainstream poets that I like quite a lot. I 
would, for example, much rather read a book by BH Fairchild than I would read one by Susan Howe. And that's not saying that I think Fairchild is a 
good poet and Howe a bad one. I think they're both brilliant, but I enjoy the one more than the other. I think a lot that gets lost in the camps of 
difficult vs accessible, and mainstream vs otherstream is that there are a lot of people doing good work in both traditions. It's easy to get bogged 
down in the sniping from both sides. While I think there's value in Bernstein calling out Official Verse Culture, or Ron Silliman criticizing the 
School of Quietude, and I disagree strongly with some of the anti-otherstream comments that have been made by poets like Collins and Kooser, it 
doesn't mean that we can't all get along. I mean, at least we're not all writing Harlequin Romances.


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 14 22:05:08 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:05:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	B750209C-59A7-44FE-B319-B6743730433F@ripon.edu<009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	46214BB7.5070306@opus40.org<00b801c77eeb$b67e66e0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	462167D9.4060701@myuw.net
Message-ID: <00dc01c77f02$803b98c0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Can't see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that 
>> the poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he 
>> likes. But I would say that less people are going to like challenging 
>> poetry than easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like 
>> calculus than arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World Turns.
>>
>> --Bob
>
> I think that's a very good point, and one that doesn't get made often 
> enough in conversations like these. Also, I think it's worth noting that 
> even though some poetry is easy listening, being easy listening doesn't 
> make it prima facie bad. i mean, i like to think of myself very much in 
> the tradition of the otherstream (a word i hadn't paid much attention to 
> before today, but that i like quite a lot and plan to use quite a bit) and 
> i like the poetry of that movement. At the same time there are poets i 
> don't like as much, and there are some mainstream poets that I like quite 
> a lot. I would, for example, much rather read a book by BH Fairchild than 
> I would read one by Susan Howe. And that's not saying that I think 
> Fairchild is a good poet and Howe a bad one. I think they're both 
> brilliant, but I enjoy the one more than the other. I think a lot that 
> gets lost in the camps of difficult vs accessible, and mainstream vs 
> otherstream is that there are a lot of people doing good work in both 
> traditions. It's easy to get bogged down in the sniping from both sides. 
> While I think there's value in Bernstein calling out Official Verse 
> Culture, or Ron Silliman criticizing the School of Quietude, and I 
> disagree strongly with some of the anti-otherstream comments that have 
> been made by poets like Collins and Kooser, it doesn't mean that we can't 
> all get along. I mean, at least we're not all writing Harlequin Romances.

Yes--more than once.

--Bob 




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 22:32:36 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <4621488E.7030904@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <20070415023236.72851.qmail@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Speaking of rock throwing and other means, I kind of like the old school sentiment of the Situationists and other kinds of non-violent art terrorism ... I wish someone would help me recall some of those 'actions' here ... that would give me ideas that I might actualize (except I don't know if I have the time at the moment, busy earning a wage to survive and all) -- but I really wish I had the skills to hack some major web site and post poems where advertisements should be.  I'm an idealist and all ... 

There is a guy who used to make street signs that looked like the real deal, but the words or pictures were changed to some subversive message -- he was doing this a lot when I first moved to NYC ten years ago (can't remember his name) -- I recall one very visible billboard that totally undid some major car campaign -- and delivered a telling message -- that one stayed in place for about a month before someone had it removed.  I remember staring at it in disbelief each time I passed it -- I couldn't really fathom that he had gotten away with such a huge display that appeared at a glance to be the correct ad but was, in fact, more revealing and damaging, in my humble opinion -- I was super-impressed.  I so wish I had photographed his actions ... I saw regular street signs that he had replaced too.  Who was that dude?  I used to imagine myself doing something similar with poetry, to the point that I did begin leaving printed out poems in obvious places for a while (i.e.
 counters, cafe tables, subway seats, etc) ... I think I even left some in non-poetry books on bookstore shelves ... alas.  

Here comes the idealist again:  a few years ago "flash mobs" came into existence for a spell.  I mean, if some stranger named Bill can get fifty or a hundred strangers to converge in a location and execute some seemingly purposeless act in unison - through email directives only - successfully so, what can poets who have a shared interest in poetry do?

Flash mobs:  http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/08/04/flash.mob/

"Adam, one of the organizers of the proposed London flash mob, said: "Flash mobs anchor the online world into the real world -- they are a manifestation of your 'cc' list" -- a reference to the electronic 'carbon copies' used to distribute e-mails widely. 
        Bill, the reported creator, told CNN: 'I called ours 'inexplicable mobs'. For some people, it is purely funny. For others, it is social -- they like being out with people. For others, it is political -- just getting out in the streets is a political act. I personally like it because it is aesthetic -- I love seeing all the people come together, seemingly out of nowhere.'"


Going back to my Saturday night elsewhere now ...


TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote: Bob -- Actually, I don't even have any problem with Bernstein or Grumman 
or King, either. Nothing like a little rock throwing to spice up any art 
form.

Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>
>> I'd be angry at the suppression of non-mainstream poetry, if that's 
>> actually been happening, but somewhat less outraged to discover that 
>> mainstream poetry is the kind most accepted by the main stream.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> I don't  have any particular problem with National Poetry Month, any 
>> more than with Black History Month or Earth Day.
>
> Earth Day is fine with me.
>
>> My suggestion to partisans of poetic schools that aren't popular is 
>> (a) try to figure out some way to make yourselves popular,
>
> Not make ourselves popular so much as make our existence 
> recognized--and I can't see any other way to do that than by 
> constantly yelling, however boringly, "we exist, too!"
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr 15 04:27:22 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:27:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tracking the Elusive SoQ
Message-ID: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>

 From Blogger Tom Morgan, a genealogy:

Looking at the early (2003) posts on Silliman's Blog, I pieced together 
a SoQ lineage. The unbroken chain looks something like this: [post 
1810*] William Wordsworth, Alfred Tennyson, John Greenleaf Whittier, 
Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Cullen Bryant, Sidney Lanier, James 
Russell Lowell, Conrad Aiken, Archibald MacLeish, Robert Lowell, Randall 
Jarrell, James Merrill, Galway Kinnell, James Wright, Robert Pinsky, and 
so forth. Robert Frost, of course, should fit in here somewhere.

http://inthebecomingundone.blogspot.com/2007/04/origins-of-soq.html

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From bmarcacci at gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 05:01:12 2007
From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:01:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tracking the Elusive SoQ
In-Reply-To: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <C247B678.6A4B%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

that's nice... i mean it's not not nice... but, well, that's what i said and
i meant it!

using words from his site, i came up with this little found poem or whatever
you want to call it... and i do go there and read him periodically, which
means, perhaps, that i like it enough... i'm not ashamed to admit it... he
makes me laugh sometimes and i'll click pretty avidly for that...

imagine all the lines centered...


a favorite of quietude critics
i sort of avoided this movie
about nothing other
that?s the right word
the self-flagellation of theory
that fundamental distantiation
among many in the limitless spectrum
the theoritician is transformed into a kind
of celebrity a grand drag queen
and i?m a poet an unlettered poet
composed only of particulars
as computer programmers like to say
partial and inadequate
 
we must become cyborgs
master narrative
grid of potential information
weird coincidences

?

toast

?

likewise

?

poetry

?

of the top new

?

classical

?

between 1979 & 2004
Silliman wrote a single poem
as enthusiastically as i seem to be


-- 
Bob Marcacci
<http://marcacci.blogspot.com/>

When choosing between two evils, I always like
to pick the one I never tried before.
 - Mae West



> From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:27:22 -0400
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Tracking the Elusive SoQ
> 
>  From Blogger Tom Morgan, a genealogy:
> 
> Looking at the early (2003) posts on Silliman's Blog, I pieced together
> a SoQ lineage. The unbroken chain looks something like this: [post
> 1810*] William Wordsworth, Alfred Tennyson, John Greenleaf Whittier,
> Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Cullen Bryant, Sidney Lanier, James
> Russell Lowell, Conrad Aiken, Archibald MacLeish, Robert Lowell, Randall
> Jarrell, James Merrill, Galway Kinnell, James Wright, Robert Pinsky, and
> so forth. Robert Frost, of course, should fit in here somewhere.
> 
> http://inthebecomingundone.blogspot.com/2007/04/origins-of-soq.html
> 
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Apr 15 09:57:23 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:57:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tracking the Elusive SoQ
In-Reply-To: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>

For some reason I'm not ready to investigate right now, the phrase  
"elusive SoQ" reminded me of this poem.

I confess I haven't been keeping up with the great SoQ-hunt much, and  
so don't even know if the Pope has officially inducted little JA into  
the school yet.  Still, "this poetry of mud" does make me smile.

Crazy Weather

It's this crazy weather we've been having:
Falling forward one minute, lying down the next
Among the loose grasses and soft, white, nameless flowers.
People have been making a garment out of it,
Stitching the white of lilacs together with lightning
At some anonymous crossroads. The sky calls
To the deaf earth. The proverbial disarray
Of morning corrects itself as you stand up.
You are wearing a text. The lines
Droop to your shoelaces and I shall never want or need
Any other literature than this poetry of mud
And ambitious reminiscences of times when it came easily
Through the then woods and ploughed fields and had
A simple unconscious dignity we can never hope to
Approximate now except in narrow ravines nobody
Will inspect where some late sample of the rare,
Uninteresting specimen might still be putting out shoots,for all we  
know.

--John Ashbery.  Houseboat Days. Penguin, 1977.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



On Apr 15, 2007, at 4:27 AM, TheOldMole wrote:

> From Blogger Tom Morgan, a genealogy:
>
> Looking at the early (2003) posts on Silliman's Blog, I pieced  
> together a SoQ lineage. The unbroken chain looks something like  
> this: [post 1810*] William Wordsworth, Alfred Tennyson, John  
> Greenleaf Whittier, Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Cullen Bryant,  
> Sidney Lanier, James Russell Lowell, Conrad Aiken, Archibald  
> MacLeish, Robert Lowell, Randall Jarrell, James Merrill, Galway  
> Kinnell, James Wright, Robert Pinsky, and so forth. Robert Frost,  
> of course, should fit in here somewhere.
>
> http://inthebecomingundone.blogspot.com/2007/04/origins-of-soq.html

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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Sun Apr 15 12:49:28 2007
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:49:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: VPR Blog
Message-ID: <1176655768-21530.00031.01336-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>

Just an update about the Valparaiso Poetry Review editor's blog, "One
Poet's Notes," complementing work in VPR and recognizing notable
recent publications of poetry: I want to invite all to visit the blog
and encourage you to pass along information about the blog's contents
to any individuals or lists you think might be interested.

Poets whose works are considered and currently on the main page
include Kwame Dawes, Kay Ryan, David Bottoms, Honor Moore, Charles
Simic, Daisy Fried, Charles Wright, Margot Schilpp, Jeffrey Franklin,
Joan Houlihan,  Greg Pape, Leslie Heywood, Mark Strand, and Derek Walcott.

The URL for the blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Thanks,

Ed

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 12:52:25 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:52:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <462167D9.4060701@myuw.net>
References: <148814.14743.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<009901c77edd$0478db50$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00b801c77eeb$b67e66e0$3cfad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<462167D9.4060701@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704150952lfbaf946ufe9c829f7a718dc7@mail.gmail.com>

Jason,

Thank you for posting this.  I'll second Bob's yesses with my own yes.

Jeff Newberry

On 4/14/07, Jason Quackenbush <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Can't see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that
> > the poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he
> > likes. But I would say that less people are going to like challenging
> > poetry than easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like
> > calculus than arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World Turns.
> >
> > --Bob
>
> I think that's a very good point, and one that doesn't get made often
> enough in conversations like these. Also, I think it's worth noting that
> even
> though some poetry is easy listening, being easy listening doesn't make it
> prima facie bad. i mean, i like to think of myself very much in the
> tradition of the otherstream (a word i hadn't paid much attention to
> before today, but that i like quite a lot and plan to use quite a bit) and i
> like
> the poetry of that movement. At the same time there are poets i don't like
> as much, and there are some mainstream poets that I like quite a lot. I
> would, for example, much rather read a book by BH Fairchild than I would
> read one by Susan Howe. And that's not saying that I think Fairchild is a
> good poet and Howe a bad one. I think they're both brilliant, but I enjoy
> the one more than the other. I think a lot that gets lost in the camps of
> difficult vs accessible, and mainstream vs otherstream is that there are a
> lot of people doing good work in both traditions. It's easy to get bogged
> down in the sniping from both sides. While I think there's value in
> Bernstein calling out Official Verse Culture, or Ron Silliman criticizing
> the
> School of Quietude, and I disagree strongly with some of the
> anti-otherstream comments that have been made by poets like Collins and
> Kooser, it
> doesn't mean that we can't all get along. I mean, at least we're not all
> writing Harlequin Romances.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 13:41:23 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:41:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit
Message-ID: <c70.ffaa1ba.3353bdc3@aol.com>

_http://www.newstimeslive.com/enter/story.php?id=1043771_ 
(http://www.newstimeslive.com/enter/story.php?id=1043771) 
Magazine celebrates food 
Bethel native and wife behind popular literary  journal 
By Jonnie Bassaro 
Special toTtheNews-Times 

In his latest book, "Teacher Man," Frank McCourt tells how he used food to  
lead high-school students in New York City into the study of poetry.  
Specifically, he had them bring cookbooks to school and read recipes aloud in 
 class.  
In his book, he recalls a student's reaction:  
"I know why you're doing it Mr. McCourt. Because they (recipes) look like  
poetry on the page and some of them read like poetry. I mean they're even better 
 than poetry because you can taste them. And, wow, the Italian recipes are 
pure  music"?" 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 13:57:25 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:57:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit
References: <c70.ffaa1ba.3353bdc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901c77f87$869eb910$d0af3852@ANNY>

That poor Ronald Johnson didn't go anywhere with his ARK but got some money with his recipe books... at least for a while.
too bad I cannot cook, might pick up a course one of these days...
one of my students one day showed up with an entire cake for me, no doubt he became my favorite right there.

the article continues with some other authors and mentions Chocolat, the movie wasn't too bad, with Am?lie and Tinguely among the best out of France. 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:41 PM


  http://www.newstimeslive.com/enter/story.php?id=1043771
  Magazine celebrates food 
  Bethel native and wife behind popular literary journal 
  By Jonnie Bassaro 
  Special toTtheNews-Times 

  In his latest book, "Teacher Man," Frank McCourt tells how he used food to lead high-school students in New York City into the study of poetry. 
  Specifically, he had them bring cookbooks to school and read recipes aloud in class. 

  In his book, he recalls a student's reaction: 

  "I know why you're doing it Mr. McCourt. Because they (recipes) look like poetry on the page and some of them read like poetry. I mean they're even better than poetry because you can taste them. And, wow, the Italian recipes are pure music"?" 



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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 14:04:06 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:04:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit
References: <c70.ffaa1ba.3353bdc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c77f88$75648430$d0af3852@ANNY>

And Calvino with his five senses, that I read thanks to our Old Mole.


From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:41 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit


  http://www.newstimeslive.com/enter/story.php?id=1043771
  Magazine celebrates food 
  Bethel native and wife behind popular literary journal 
  By Jonnie Bassaro 
  Special toTtheNews-Times 

  In his latest book, "Teacher Man," Frank McCourt tells how he used food to lead high-school students in New York City into the study of poetry. 
  Specifically, he had them bring cookbooks to school and read recipes aloud in class. 

  In his book, he recalls a student's reaction: 

  "I know why you're doing it Mr. McCourt. Because they (recipes) look like poetry on the page and some of them read like poetry. I mean they're even better than poetry because you can taste them. And, wow, the Italian recipes are pure music"?" 






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  See what's free at AOL.com. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 14:18:36 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:18:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beowulf I & II
Message-ID: <c24.156205f8.3353c67c@aol.com>

 
_http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/_ (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/) 

ABC  Radio National
POETICA
A new translation of the famous Anglo-Saxon  classic.


 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 14:46:37 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:46:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <bf5.11d3d756.3353cd0d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/14/2007 6:22:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Can't  see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that the  
poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he likes.  
But I would say that less people are going to like challenging poetry than  
easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like calculus than  
arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World  Turns.


You might be on to something there. I've often thought that only the  
privileged and
leisure class can afford to like disturbing art. In a way the so-called  edgy 
poets
are preaching to the choir of the educated and privileged  peers and not to 
the segments
of society they claim they want to reach. It's akin to the  anti-WalMart 
phenom...which
is spurred by those with the means to spurn cheap housewares and  jeans.  
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 15:00:49 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:00:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
Message-ID: <bd0.101f937f.3353d061@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/14/2007 10:33:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:

Because  anything written more than eight years ago has nothing to say to me 
... or any  of of us!

Actually, the essay is still quite relevant, and  unfortunately, Bernstein's 
sentiment hasn't been widespread enough, in any  sense of the word ... 


Bernstein could be said to have copied Richard Howard who published a very  
similar piece in Harpersa about 10 years ago. Both decry the  commercializing 
initiatives of National Poetry Month, tho Richard  Howard's piece was more 
along the veing of what I'd call 'Garboing':  "I just want to be left alone" (says 
the famous poet, feigning a need to  retreat to some secret bower where the 
true mysteries of poetry reveal  themselves). 
Finnegan
 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Apr 15 16:26:03 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:26:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: bf5.11d3d756.3353cd0d@aol.com
Message-ID: <006b01c77f9c$51092cd0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Can't see that I said or suggested that, Mole.  I just pointed out that the 
poetry Bernstein attacks is easy listening compared to the kind he likes. 
But I would say that less people are going to like challenging poetry than 
easy listening poetry, just as less people are going to like calculus than 
arithmetic or Ingmar Bergman than As The World Turns.
  You might be on to something there. I've often thought that only the privileged and
  leisure class can afford to like disturbing art. In a way the so-called edgy poets
  are preaching to the choir of the educated and privileged peers and not to the segments
  of society they claim they want to reach. It's akin to the anti-WalMart phenom...which
  is spurred by those with the means to spurn cheap housewares and jeans.  
  Finnegan

  That's an interesting thought, James, but I was taking "challenging" as intellectually difficult, not as disturbing.

  --Bob
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 15:37:13 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:37:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <c5c.fbf62ea.3353d8e9@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

That's an interesting thought, James, but I was taking "challenging" as  
intellectually difficult, not as disturbing.


Challenging or disturbing, it gets you to the same place. You change  bedpans 
over an eight hour shift and you want to be challenged  by poetry? If you 
look at the Woobly poetry of early 20th C. union  activists you'll see how simple 
& straightforward it was in its execution  and sentiments. 
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Apr 15 14:42:56 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:42:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Challenge
In-Reply-To: <006b01c77f9c$51092cd0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: bf5.11d3d756.3353cd0d@aol.com
	<006b01c77f9c$51092cd0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <32060B28-12D7-4DB1-8129-419DEEC8DCD0@ripon.edu>

I don't see why "challenging" can't be both intellectually difficult  
as well as disturbing.  And probably two or three other things also.

One of the unexamined assumptions that often circulates when formally  
innovative work is put up against conventionally formed work is that  
*of course* the experimental stuff is more "challenging."  (A short  
jump from there to "better," too often.)  But challenge depends on a  
number of things, I'd say; and surely now that we're 100 years, more  
or less, into the Age of Stein & Pound, there's little need to keep  
applauding the boldness of poets who jettison narrative, traditional  
syntax, and so forth.  That's traditional by now, also.

Frost, to pick one of my usual examples, is teeming with  
intellectually slippery material while not being challenging in the  
sense of doing away with conventional forms.  A line like "the fact  
is the sweetest dream that labor knows" is endlessly challenging, I'd  
say.

But it's very difficult to talk about difficulty, isn't it?  In any  
case, you don't have to go far to recognize that accessibility of  
surface in itself is no barrier to poetic quality--just open any  
Norton Anthology.  Or better yet, put on some blues.


-----------------------
On Apr 15, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> You might be on to something there. I've often thought that only  
> the privileged and
> leisure class can afford to like disturbing art. In a way the so- 
> called edgy poets
> are preaching to the choir of the educated and privileged peers and  
> not to the segments
> of society they claim they want to reach. It's akin to the anti- 
> WalMart phenom...which
> is spurred by those with the means to spurn cheap housewares and  
> jeans.
> Finnegan
>
> That's an interesting thought, James, but I was taking  
> "challenging" as intellectually difficult, not as disturbing.
>
> --Bob
==============



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================




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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 15:56:19 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:56:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <c5c.fbf62ea.3353d8e9@aol.com>
References: <c5c.fbf62ea.3353d8e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <46228363.7040009@myuw.net>



JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
> 
>     That's an interesting thought, James, but I was taking "challenging"
>     as intellectually difficult, not as disturbing.
> 
> Challenging or disturbing, it gets you to the same place. You change 
> bedpans over an eight hour shift and you want to be challenged 
> by poetry? If you look at the Woobly poetry of early 20th C. union 
> activists you'll see how simple & straightforward it was in its 
> execution and sentiments.
> Finnegan

I find this comment extremely insulting, and it strikes me as the sort of attitude that only someone who considers himself elevated above changing 
bedpans could develop. Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum wage and 
lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult life, i can tell you from first hand experience that you're full of it and you're teetering on 
the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous, insulting, and condescending.


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 15:59:02 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:59:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <d51.670fd13.3353de06@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  
writes:

Just  because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in difficult 
art? As  someone who has worked for minimum wage and 
lived well below the poverty  level for most of my adult life, i can tell you 
from first hand experience  that you're full of it and you're teetering on 
the edge of a repressive  bourgeois elitism that is callous, insulting, and  
condescending.



There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 16:15:39 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:15:39 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Challenge
References: bf5.11d3d756.3353cd0d@aol.com<006b01c77f9c$51092cd0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<32060B28-12D7-4DB1-8129-419DEEC8DCD0@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00b301c77f9a$d697c430$d0af3852@ANNY>

I agree with many people in these discussions, as usual. What I would like to say, and might probably help Grumman here, is that by following Derrida we are still within a language, we are still all here. As David says, after Stein or Pound, Olson or Zukofsky, or Johnson, there have been a lot of repetitions, and sometimes they were not better than those who preceded us. And I fully support David's and James' way of seeing poetry in this moment. I sometimes find that a poem written 100-2-3-400 or 1000 or more years ago has a refined quality much higher than the ones we are reading now. I want to go back to Parmenides, for example. I want to find the time to go back there. 
But Derrida went beyond with his of Grammatology. He needed a new language and a new writing, a new reading, a detachment from the signifier and the signified the way they have been structured until now. This is the greatest challenge those who call themselves poets or philosophers have to take upon themselves, I think. 

  From: David Graham 

  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:42 PM



  I don't see why "challenging" can't be both intellectually difficult as well as disturbing.  And probably two or three other things also.


  One of the unexamined assumptions that often circulates when formally innovative work is put up against conventionally formed work is that *of course* the experimental stuff is more "challenging."  (A short jump from there to "better," too often.)  But challenge depends on a number of things, I'd say; and surely now that we're 100 years, more or less, into the Age of Stein & Pound, there's little need to keep applauding the boldness of poets who jettison narrative, traditional syntax, and so forth.  That's traditional by now, also.



  Frost, to pick one of my usual examples, is teeming with intellectually slippery material while not being challenging in the sense of doing away with conventional forms.  A line like "the fact is the sweetest dream that labor knows" is endlessly challenging, I'd say.  


  But it's very difficult to talk about difficulty, isn't it?  In any case, you don't have to go far to recognize that accessibility of surface in itself is no barrier to poetic quality--just open any Norton Anthology.  Or better yet, put on some blues.




  -----------------------

  On Apr 15, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
    You might be on to something there. I've often thought that only the privileged and
    leisure class can afford to like disturbing art. In a way the so-called edgy poets
    are preaching to the choir of the educated and privileged peers and not to the segments
    of society they claim they want to reach. It's akin to the anti-WalMart phenom...which
    is spurred by those with the means to spurn cheap housewares and jeans.  
    Finnegan

    That's an interesting thought, James, but I was taking "challenging" as intellectually difficult, not as disturbing.

    --Bob
  ==============






  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ==========================================

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Apr 15 17:17:18 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:17:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: d51.670fd13.3353de06@aol.com
Message-ID: <009401c77fa3$7798d510$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I tend to be with James here.  It's not insulting to believe that someone who does boring work all day will be too tired for poetry that takes concentration.  I'm often that way myself after a day of substitute teaching.  On the other hand, it has to be accepted that some poetry is too advanced in one way or another for most people to be able to appreciate.

I had the day off today, but I'm still to beat to really get into this further.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 16:46:22 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:46:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit
Message-ID: <c58.f7fc8a8.3353e91e@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 1:58:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

Ronald  Johnson didn't go anywhere with his ARK but got some money with  his 
recipe books


Anny, are you making this up...did he write cookbooks? I'm sure I  could 
Google and find out myself, but it seems you're familiar  with Johnson's recipes.
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:11:45 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <d51.670fd13.3353de06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled me happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up by chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a Hallmark beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, but I too was a member of the lower class that you just pompously characterized and devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends on the phone because I was excited to share and hear them become from my very own tongue.  Many of those friends had inner city educations in the lower class neighborhoods as well; some enjoyed the work and became curious, while others were merely entertained by the 'silly' nonsensical value.  

Are you telling me that the various experiences we shared with those poems were not valuable or authentic because we didn't grow up with money and were not 'properly cultured' or educated?  Because we were tired after working two jobs - and thinking wasn't feasible?  That mountain you occupy must be very difficult to see from -- your myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired poor people have the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise to level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?  Jeez.


JforJames at aol.com wrote:      In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  writes:
 Just    because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in difficult art? As    someone who has worked for minimum wage and 
lived well below the poverty    level for most of my adult life, i can tell you from first hand experience    that you're full of it and you're teetering on 
the edge of a repressive    bourgeois elitism that is callous, insulting, and  condescending.

 
 There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
 Finnegan




       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 17:17:29 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:17:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit
References: <c58.f7fc8a8.3353e91e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f201c77fa3$79f8be10$d0af3852@ANNY>


I would never make something like this up... :-)
This probably answers your question:

Like I said, the cookbooks sustained him for a good while. He told me once that he would propose a cookbook to a publisher, get an advance, and then live off that money for a year or two. 

Here is the entire answer in Peter O'Leary's interview on Octopus Magazine:
http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue03/peter_oleary_interview.html

How seriously did RJ take his cooking and his cooking publications? How did he regard his cooking in comparison to his poetry?

I think they were a serious part of his life. Which is to say, they were his livelihood for a period of ten years or more. Cooking has been my main hobby (along with birdwatching) for the last fifteen years. I do all the cooking for my family, all the grocery shopping. I came to Ron's cookbooks, then, not just out of poetic interest. I really wanted to get some recipes from them! Anyways, I use them all the time. I probably use The American Table most often - there are at least four recipes from that one in heavy rotation, for feasts as well as everyday meals - but turn with great frequency to both Company Fare (try the roast chicken in sauce of red-wine vinegar for an epic meal made from a handful of ingredients) and to Simple Fare. Ron wanted to call this one When the Cupboard is Bare, which his publisher thought too grim. As a penny-pinching poet, he knew how to pull a meal together out of nothing at all. He stayed with me and my brother in 1996 when he came to Chicago to give a reading. On his last evening with us, he began nosing around our pantry - which, it turns out, was pretty bare - and soon enough was preparing a meal. He made a Southwest feast for us: a stew of pinto beans and chorizo, topped with cilantro and Chihuahua cheese; fresh fritos (fried tortilla chips); and a salad of iceberg lettuce and pomegranates. Meal of a lifetime.

The times we were together, when we weren't talking about poetry, we were talking about food. Like I said, the cookbooks sustained him for a good while. He told me once that he would propose a cookbook to a publisher, get an advance, and then live off that money for a year or two. He always had a roommate to split housing costs, and he lived frugally. Among his correspondence are letters from M.K.F. Fisher and Marion Cunningham. I think he took quite a lot of pride that great cooks (and cooking writers) recognized his talent in the kitchen (and at the typewriter). There was a while I kept The American Table ("the diet of the tribe" as he calls it) by my bedside. It's a really great read! There's some excellent poetry gossip in there, too, about what poets like to eat. 

I don't know how much (or little) to make connecting the cookbooks to his poetry. I mean, he was a poet who put his life into a poem, ARK, and then retrospectively ordered his life around that construction. The cookbooks allowed him to work on his poem (He wrote most of them during the 1980s, while he worked continuously on ARK). If the work merits the investigation, I imagine someone will start to compare the cookbooks to the poetry, or look to the cookbooks for some hermeneutical clues. For me, the cookbooks seem most interesting from a practical standpoint. Ron never thrived financially. I think toward the end, he really would have liked to have been hired as a creative writing instructor at a college somewhere; it would have solved some unfortunate fiduciary dilemmas. But it's interesting to think that an American poet made his living for a sustained period by writing cookbooks. More interesting than if he wrote advertising, or plumbing manuals, or drew military cartoons say. The academy has been the mainstay for poets - as professors or creative writing teachers - for a while now (though maybe this is changing?). It's useful to think of alternatives to this system. Ron's cookbook writing didn't support him as long as he had hoped it would, but it kept him going while he was writing ARK. For that alone, we should all have copies of each of the cookbooks.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] fingerlicking lit


  In a message dated 4/15/2007 1:58:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    Ronald Johnson didn't go anywhere with his ARK but got some money with his recipe books
  Anny, are you making this up...did he write cookbooks? I'm sure I could Google and find out myself, but it seems you're familiar with Johnson's recipes.
  Finnegan



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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 17:18:45 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:18:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <d51.670fd13.3353de06@aol.com>
References: <d51.670fd13.3353de06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <462296B5.6070707@myuw.net>

Actually, I don't have TV. I live under the flight path and I can't afford cable. But that's beside the point; it seems like you're saying that white 
collar workers don't watch American Idol? Is that correct? Because of it is this statement smacks of a classist elitism i find very contrary to the 
world I live in. I agree with Bob that difficult art isn't for everybody, and further, i don't think i've ever tried to unwind at the end of the day 
by sitting down with a collection of Jackson Mac Low poetry, but i disagree strongly with the notion that how much money a person makes or how hard 
they work in their day job determines what kind of art they will enjoy. if you've got some evidence to offer that shows that people who don't make a 
lot of money prefer simpler art and people who make more prefer more difficulty, please offer it up. But in my personal experience, and I can name a 
dozen blue collar carpenters, bartenders, and call center workers of my own personal acquaintance off hand who fit this mold, aesthetic sophistication 
bears an inverse relationship to economic power, and the more money people have the more tacky and shallow they tend to be. Just look at Paris Hilton. 
Or look to the cultural stereotype of the bohemian aesthete. I think there are probably more people in the world working low paying jobs and grinding 
it out for their aesthetic principles than you're giving credit for. Show me a tattooed kid in a pizza parlor scrubbing a toilet, or grizzly bartender 
in some dive in a bad part of town and i'll lay good odds that they care a lot more about art in one form or another than does any latte sipping 
yuppie cruising down the interstate in an SUV with a Wharton MBA, an IPOD full of James Taylor, and a bookshelf loaded with Tom Clancy novels and Maya 
Angelou poetry. Those are the consumers of crass mass culture and easy listening art, in my experience.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jfq at myuw.net writes:
> 
>     Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in
>     difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum wage and
>     lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult life, i can
>     tell you from first hand experience that you're full of it and
>     you're teetering on
>     the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous,
>     insulting, and condescending.
> 
> There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
> Finnegan
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 17:21:37 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:21:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <d2f.403a8cf.3353f161@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:38:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

You  change bedpans over an eight hour shift and you want to be challenged  
by poetry?
 
Actually, I spent 12 and 1/2 years in an ER - changing bedpans and dressing  
wounds and holding down combative patients and helping doctors drop NG  tubes 
down the nasal passages of wanna-be suicides - and then I cleaned up  the mess 
and moved onto the next train wreck - and I didn't do it for "8 hour  
shifts," I did it for 12 hour shifts.
 
And yeah, I still wanted to be "challenged" by poetry.
 
Go figure.
 
Lo

 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:23:07 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:23:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <009401c77fa3$7798d510$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20070415212307.10522.qmail@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

In a culture where poetry is so often presented as 'entertainment', you make it sound as though engaging with "difficult" or "edgy" poetry can only include the dualistic opposite of entertaining, that such reading must involve some sort of explication that requires 'concentration' for there to be any use value, or 'appreciation', to it ... these divisions limit the possible varying experiences poetry, in its nearly countless manifestations and styles, can incite/provoke/stimulate, etc in the reader.  I certainly can't be the only person who reads even when I'm not feeling alert, educated, well-rested, and ready to concentrate ...

Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:       I tend to be with James here.  It's not insulting to believe that  someone who does boring work all day will be too tired for poetry that takes  concentration.  I'm often that way myself after a day of substitute  teaching.  On the other hand, it has to be accepted that some poetry is too  advanced in one way or another for most people to be able to appreciate.
  
 I had the day off today, but I'm still to beat to really get into this  further.
  
 --Bob G.


       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 17:24:06 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:24:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>

I don't think Amy that James was heading at something like that. From what I read (I almost read all the messages) I understood that James was seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How many Amy Kings do we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty. One needs a lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I think is what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from you either. There is a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor, but here I might be inventing.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: amy king 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo


  I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled me happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up by chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a Hallmark beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, but I too was a member of the lower class that you just pompously characterized and devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends on the phone because I was excited to share and hear them become from my very own tongue.  Many of those friends had inner city educations in the lower class neighborhoods as well; some enjoyed the work and became curious, while others were merely entertained by the 'silly' nonsensical value.  

  Are you telling me that the various experiences we shared with those poems were not valuable or authentic because we didn't grow up with money and were not 'properly cultured' or educated?  Because we were tired after working two jobs - and thinking wasn't feasible?  That mountain you occupy must be very difficult to see from -- your myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired poor people have the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise to level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?  Jeez.


  JforJames at aol.com wrote:
    In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net writes:
      Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum wage and 
      lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult life, i can tell you from first hand experience that you're full of it and you're teetering on 
      the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous, insulting, and condescending.

    There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
    Finnegan


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From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 17:25:32 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:25:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <d04.de4c7f0.3353f24c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:18:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jfq at myuw.net writes:

Show me  a tattooed kid in a pizza parlor scrubbing a toilet, or grizzly 
bartender  
in some dive in a bad part of town and i'll lay good odds that they care a  
lot more about art in one form or another than does any latte sipping  
yuppie cruising down the interstate in an SUV with a Wharton MBA, an IPOD  
full of James Taylor, and a bookshelf loaded with Tom Clancy novels and Maya  
Angelou poetry. Those are the consumers of crass mass culture and easy  
listening art, in my experience.



You go, JFQ.  I'm behind ya all the way on this  one!!



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:37:25 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <bd0.101f937f.3353d061@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20070415213725.87099.qmail@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Oh, well, if Bernstein's idea was inspired by Howard's, or even worse:  if there is a lineage or genealogy to this kind of thinking about poetry's commodification, then certainly the ideas and the questioning itself are complete bunk!  Might as well throw out most philosophical texts too, since philosophers generally respond to texts that preceded them, weighing those texts' applicability, echoing them, building on them, etc -- and hey, throw out any other discipline and thinking that didn't emerge from a vacuum, just born by the hand of god or a 'muse', etc. 

But just how does Howard's "Garboing" apply to and nullify the contents of Bernstein's essay again?

JforJames at aol.com wrote:      In a message dated 4/14/2007 10:33:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:
 Because    anything written more than eight years ago has nothing to say to me ... or any    of of us!

Actually, the essay is still quite relevant, and    unfortunately, Bernstein's sentiment hasn't been widespread enough, in any    sense of the word ... 
 
 Bernstein could be said to have copied Richard Howard who published a very  similar piece in Harpersa about 10 years ago. Both decry the  commercializing initiatives of National Poetry Month, tho Richard  Howard's piece was more along the veing of what I'd call 'Garboing':  "I just want to be left alone" (says the famous poet, feigning a need to  retreat to some secret bower where the true mysteries of poetry reveal  themselves). 
 Finnegan
 



       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 17:40:06 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:40:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>

I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people from all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And more 
importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be a valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about difficult art. 
What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at too, is the idea that a person is less likely to care about intellectually challenging work when 
they are on the lower end of the economic ladder. I don't think there's any reason to hold that opinion unless you also hold the opinion that 
difficult work is the exclusive privilege of Bataille's accursed share. I don't see any reason to believe that a person's socio-economic status has a 
great deal of sway over how they spend their leisure time, and saying otherwise gets my back up a bit because it strikes me as reinforcing cultural 
stereotypes of the poor as a great unwashed mass who are too tired, uneducated, and stupid to have a vivid intellectual life. I'm no sociologist, but 
i feel compelled to say that in my empirical experience of society, that stereotype has no foundation in reality.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I don't think Amy that James was heading at something like that. From 
> what I read (I almost read all the messages) I understood that James was 
> seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How many Amy Kings do 
> we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty. One needs a 
> lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one 
> single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I 
> think is what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from you 
> either. There is a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor, 
> but here I might be inventing.
> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* amy king <mailto:amyhappens at yahoo.com>
>     *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>     <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:11 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
> 
>     I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled me
>     happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up
>     by chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a
>     Hallmark beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, but
>     I too was a member of the lower class that you just pompously
>     characterized and devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends
>     on the phone because I was excited to share and hear them become
>     from my very own tongue.  Many of those friends had inner city
>     educations in the lower class neighborhoods as well; some enjoyed
>     the work and became curious, while others were merely entertained by
>     the 'silly' nonsensical value. 
> 
>     Are you telling me that the various experiences we shared with those
>     poems were not valuable or authentic because we didn't grow up with
>     money and were not 'properly cultured' or educated?  Because we were
>     tired after working two jobs - and thinking wasn't feasible?  That
>     mountain you occupy must be very difficult to see from -- your
>     myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired poor people have
>     the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise to
>     level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?  Jeez.
> 
> 
>     */JforJames at aol.com/* wrote:
> 
>         In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>         jfq at myuw.net writes:
> 
>             Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested
>             in difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum wage
>             and
>             lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult
>             life, i can tell you from first hand experience that you're
>             full of it and you're teetering on
>             the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous,
>             insulting, and condescending.
> 
>         There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
>         Finnegan
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From SLIDINGSCA at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 17:47:00 2007
From: SLIDINGSCA at aol.com (SLIDINGSCA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:47:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <d5c.6220452.3353f754@aol.com>

 
 
Damn, most of the people who create difficult art are poor.
 


Here's to my mother, a bookkeeper, who read me  Pushkin and Lermontov and 
helped me translate Mayakovsky and  Kruchenych.
 
To my father, a toolmaker, who died reading difficult  books.






JforJames at aol.com wrote:  




There are always exceptions.  But wake up...don't you have a TV?
Finnegan







Larissa  Shmailo
_http://myspace.com/larissaworld_ (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) 




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From editor at pavementsaw.org  Sun Apr 15 17:56:35 2007
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 34, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <200704152038.l3FKcRUR001865@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <977764.49496.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Anny & all--
   
  There was also Niedecker who was an excellent cook, not a pro like Johnson, but Bob Arnold published a chapbook of her recipes one Thanksgiving many years back.
   
  >>Ronald  Johnson didn't go anywhere with his ARK but got some money with  
his recipe books





Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
PO Box 6291
Columbus, OH 43206
http://pavementsaw.org
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 17:57:10 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:57:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>
	<46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <014e01c77fa9$04f8c000$d0af3852@ANNY>

Jason,

I know kids are lazy. I have been teaching enough to know it very well. And 
I know that I have given a heap of private lessons to kids whose families 
have plenty of money to pay for private tuition. Those who were poorer did 
not get that kind of extra thinking especially forged for them to get them 
to university and to try to get something into their heads. I do not think 
that poorer people are more intelligent than the richer or vice-versa, but I 
do think that the richer have easier means to get to think on things if they 
want to. I also know that out of all those poor kids there are some who are 
particularly stubborn and that are  able to get through it all thanks to 
their brains and stubbornness and talent. If they are able to persist, they 
will be the ones who will shine in the future. But realistically, how many 
are they?

And as I said before, I think this discussion is diverting from the starting 
point. We are speculating on personal cases that do not reflect society as a 
whole.

From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:40 PM


>I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people from 
>all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And more 
>importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be a 
>valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about 
>difficult art. What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at too, 
>is the idea that a person is less likely to care about intellectually 
>challenging work when they are on the lower end of the economic ladder. I 
>don't think there's any reason to hold that opinion unless you also hold 
>the opinion that difficult work is the exclusive privilege of Bataille's 
>accursed share. I don't see any reason to believe that a person's 
>socio-economic status has a great deal of sway over how they spend their 
>leisure time, and saying otherwise gets my back up a bit because it strikes 
>me as reinforcing cultural stereotypes of the poor as a great unwashed mass 
>who are too tired, uneducated, and stupid to have a vivid intellectual 
>life. I'm no sociologist, but i feel compelled to say that in my empirical 
>experience of society, that stereotype has no foundation in reality.
>




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:57:30 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <670653.51305.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Sorry, Anny -- I'm just getting irritated here.  I think it takes a lot of gall to characterize people who work hard for low wages as too tired to think beyond the purpose of Union poetry in their limited free time.  I've known many lower class people who engage in intellectual feats when they're not earning a wage, and not just my younger self; and absolutely, concern with wages is a priority, but not the only thing that occupies their minds.  To diminish their existence by allotting them "simple sentiment" and "straightfoward poetry"  with a limited use value of demanding more pay and benefits certainly puts poetry and them in a straight jacket I imagine they'd soon grow bored with - and shed just as quickly.  

But my mama always did say I was too sassy growing up, so I'm off to live off line for a bit  ... 


Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:       I don't think Amy that James was heading at  something like that. From what I read (I almost read all the messages) I  understood that James was seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How  many Amy Kings do we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty.  One needs a lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one  single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I think is  what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from you either. There is  a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor, but here I might be  inventing.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
   From:    amy king    
   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News    &amp,Views 
   Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:11    PM
   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
   

I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled    me happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up by    chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a Hallmark    beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, but I too was a    member of the lower class that you just pompously characterized and    devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends on the phone because I    was excited to share and hear them become from my very own tongue.  Many    of those friends had inner city educations in the lower class neighborhoods as    well; some enjoyed the work and became curious, while others were merely    entertained by the 'silly' nonsensical value.  

Are you telling me    that the various experiences we shared with those poems were not valuable or    authentic because we didn't grow up with money and were not 'properly    cultured' or educated?  Because we were tired after working two jobs -    and thinking wasn't feasible?  That mountain you occupy must be very    difficult to see from -- your myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired    poor people have the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise    to level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?     Jeez.


JforJames at aol.com wrote:                  In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,      jfq at myuw.net writes:
     Just        because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested in difficult art?        As someone who has worked for minimum wage and 
lived well below the        poverty level for most of my adult life, i can tell you from first hand        experience that you're full of it and you're teetering on 
the edge of        a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous, insulting, and        condescending.

     
     There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
     Finnegan


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


       
---------------------------------
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 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 17:57:37 2007
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:57:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY> <46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480704151457x28f209b7kf7a34e44f0fd3821@mail.gmail.com>

The poor have less leisure time, have less money to spend on these
privileged resources.

Roger

On 4/15/07, Jason Quackenbush <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people from all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And more
> importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be a valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about difficult art.
> What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at too, is the idea that a person is less likely to care about intellectually challenging work when
> they are on the lower end of the economic ladder. I don't think there's any reason to hold that opinion unless you also hold the opinion that
> difficult work is the exclusive privilege of Bataille's accursed share. I don't see any reason to believe that a person's socio-economic status has a
> great deal of sway over how they spend their leisure time, and saying otherwise gets my back up a bit because it strikes me as reinforcing cultural
> stereotypes of the poor as a great unwashed mass who are too tired, uneducated, and stupid to have a vivid intellectual life. I'm no sociologist, but
> i feel compelled to say that in my empirical experience of society, that stereotype has no foundation in reality.
>
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
> > I don't think Amy that James was heading at something like that. From
> > what I read (I almost read all the messages) I understood that James was
> > seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How many Amy Kings do
> > we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty. One needs a
> > lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one
> > single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I
> > think is what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from you
> > either. There is a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor,
> > but here I might be inventing.
> >
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     *From:* amy king <mailto:amyhappens at yahoo.com>
> >     *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> >     <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >     *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:11 PM
> >     *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
> >
> >     I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled me
> >     happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up
> >     by chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a
> >     Hallmark beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, but
> >     I too was a member of the lower class that you just pompously
> >     characterized and devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends
> >     on the phone because I was excited to share and hear them become
> >     from my very own tongue.  Many of those friends had inner city
> >     educations in the lower class neighborhoods as well; some enjoyed
> >     the work and became curious, while others were merely entertained by
> >     the 'silly' nonsensical value.
> >
> >     Are you telling me that the various experiences we shared with those
> >     poems were not valuable or authentic because we didn't grow up with
> >     money and were not 'properly cultured' or educated?  Because we were
> >     tired after working two jobs - and thinking wasn't feasible?  That
> >     mountain you occupy must be very difficult to see from -- your
> >     myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired poor people have
> >     the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise to
> >     level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?  Jeez.
> >
> >
> >     */JforJames at aol.com/* wrote:
> >
> >         In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >         jfq at myuw.net writes:
> >
> >             Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be interested
> >             in difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum wage
> >             and
> >             lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult
> >             life, i can tell you from first hand experience that you're
> >             full of it and you're teetering on
> >             the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous,
> >             insulting, and condescending.
> >
> >         There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
> >         Finnegan
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 18:05:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:05:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <670653.51305.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <017801c77faa$27cbbd20$d0af3852@ANNY>

Too sassy? I wouldn't say so.  
  From: amy king 
  Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:57 PM


  Sorry, Anny -- I'm just getting irritated here.  I think it takes a lot of gall to characterize people who work hard for low wages as too tired to think beyond the purpose of Union poetry in their limited free time.  I've known many lower class people who engage in intellectual feats when they're not earning a wage, and not just my younger self; and absolutely, concern with wages is a priority, but not the only thing that occupies their minds.  To diminish their existence by allotting them "simple sentiment" and "straightfoward poetry"  with a limited use value of demanding more pay and benefits certainly puts poetry and them in a straight jacket I imagine they'd soon grow bored with - and shed just as quickly.  

  But my mama always did say I was too sassy growing up, so I'm off to live off line for a bit  ... 


  Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
    I don't think Amy that James was heading at something like that. >From what I read (I almost read all the messages) I understood that James was seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How many Amy Kings do we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty. One needs a lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I think is what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from you either. There is a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor, but here I might be inventing.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 18:08:00 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:08:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <fde503480704151457x28f209b7kf7a34e44f0fd3821@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>
	<46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>
	<fde503480704151457x28f209b7kf7a34e44f0fd3821@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4622A240.4060305@myuw.net>

you misunderstand, i don't think that difficult art is the exclusive privilege of the accursed share. that's the view that i'm opposed to.

Roger Day wrote:
> The poor have less leisure time, have less money to spend on these
> privileged resources.
> 
> Roger
> 
> On 4/15/07, Jason Quackenbush <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> 
>> I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people 
>> from all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And more
>> importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be a 
>> valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about 
>> difficult art.
>> What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at too, is the idea 
>> that a person is less likely to care about intellectually challenging 
>> work when
>> they are on the lower end of the economic ladder. I don't think 
>> there's any reason to hold that opinion unless you also hold the 
>> opinion that
>> difficult work is the exclusive privilege of Bataille's accursed 
>> share. I don't see any reason to believe that a person's 
>> socio-economic status has a
>> great deal of sway over how they spend their leisure time, and saying 
>> otherwise gets my back up a bit because it strikes me as reinforcing 
>> cultural
>> stereotypes of the poor as a great unwashed mass who are too tired, 
>> uneducated, and stupid to have a vivid intellectual life. I'm no 
>> sociologist, but
>> i feel compelled to say that in my empirical experience of society, 
>> that stereotype has no foundation in reality.
>>
>> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> > I don't think Amy that James was heading at something like that. From
>> > what I read (I almost read all the messages) I understood that James 
>> was
>> > seeing the broader picture in a sociological way. How many Amy Kings do
>> > we have around? Let's face it Amy without any false modesty. One 
>> needs a
>> > lot of guts to get work, study, poetry, eating and sleeping in one
>> > single day, and not only for one day, but for an entire life. This I
>> > think is what James meant, and I do not think he is too distant from 
>> you
>> > either. There is a poem if I am right of when he worked at the harbor,
>> > but here I might be inventing.
>> >
>> >     ----- Original Message -----
>> >     *From:* amy king <mailto:amyhappens at yahoo.com>
>> >     *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>> >     <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> >     *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:11 PM
>> >     *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
>> >
>> >     I second Jason here.  The first poetry that ever thrilled me
>> >     happened to be a Black Sparrow edition of Stein's poems I picked up
>> >     by chance when I first started college.  "Poetry" was just a
>> >     Hallmark beautification until then.  I'll spare you the details, 
>> but
>> >     I too was a member of the lower class that you just pompously
>> >     characterized and devalued.  I'd read those poems aloud to friends
>> >     on the phone because I was excited to share and hear them become
>> >     from my very own tongue.  Many of those friends had inner city
>> >     educations in the lower class neighborhoods as well; some enjoyed
>> >     the work and became curious, while others were merely 
>> entertained by
>> >     the 'silly' nonsensical value.
>> >
>> >     Are you telling me that the various experiences we shared with 
>> those
>> >     poems were not valuable or authentic because we didn't grow up with
>> >     money and were not 'properly cultured' or educated?  Because we 
>> were
>> >     tired after working two jobs - and thinking wasn't feasible?  That
>> >     mountain you occupy must be very difficult to see from -- your
>> >     myopia is incredibly astounding ... 'most' tired poor people have
>> >     the most elementary of intellectual lives that can only rise to
>> >     level of absorbing tv?  Anyone who does is an exception?  Jeez.
>> >
>> >
>> >     */JforJames at aol.com/* wrote:
>> >
>> >         In a message dated 4/15/2007 3:55:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> >         jfq at myuw.net writes:
>> >
>> >             Just because a guy makes minimum wage he won't be 
>> interested
>> >             in difficult art? As someone who has worked for minimum 
>> wage
>> >             and
>> >             lived well below the poverty level for most of my adult
>> >             life, i can tell you from first hand experience that you're
>> >             full of it and you're teetering on
>> >             the edge of a repressive bourgeois elitism that is callous,
>> >             insulting, and condescending.
>> >
>> >         There are always exceptions. But wake up...don't you have a TV?
>> >         Finnegan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> 
> 


From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:07:56 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:07:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <c49.df600fc.3353fc3c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:58:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rog3r.day at gmail.com writes:

The poor  have less leisure time, have less money to spend on these
privileged  resources.



Most of 'em also know how to walk to the library.
 
Really they do.
 
What better way is there to fill "leisure" time when you have no money  left 
after changing bedpans all day, anyhow?
 
Lo



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 18:15:32 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:15:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <014e01c77fa9$04f8c000$d0af3852@ANNY>
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>	<46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net>
	<014e01c77fa9$04f8c000$d0af3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <4622A404.5060804@myuw.net>

I've been a private tutor myself, and i know just how worthless those private lessons can be for a kid, who will never the less go to a good school, 
get a good job, and make a lot of money and their entire life will still be dead to a life of the mind. just look at the current us president for a 
paradigm case.

Moreover, i don't think that it's strictly a function of formal education that leads to an interest in art. i'm not just talking about the one's who 
will shine in the future, but of the ones for whom reading difficult books is a welcome and enjoyable pastime. A lot of those people will live and die 
poor and no one will ever hear about them, and realistically, there are a lot of people like that. a lot. Are the exceptional? yes. But that doesn't 
make them the rare exceptions among the rabble that you and James seem to want to paint them as. My point is that there are a lot more than you're 
giving credit for, and that it's not going against type to be a broke intellectual. I'm basing that on my personal experience of living and working 
with the people you and James are insulting. And i'm basing the fact that it's insulting on the fact that I am one of those people, and i feel 
insulted by this position that you have both taken.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> Jason,
> 
> I know kids are lazy. I have been teaching enough to know it very well. 
> And I know that I have given a heap of private lessons to kids whose 
> families have plenty of money to pay for private tuition. Those who were 
> poorer did not get that kind of extra thinking especially forged for 
> them to get them to university and to try to get something into their 
> heads. I do not think that poorer people are more intelligent than the 
> richer or vice-versa, but I do think that the richer have easier means 
> to get to think on things if they want to. I also know that out of all 
> those poor kids there are some who are particularly stubborn and that 
> are  able to get through it all thanks to their brains and stubbornness 
> and talent. If they are able to persist, they will be the ones who will 
> shine in the future. But realistically, how many are they?
> 
> And as I said before, I think this discussion is diverting from the 
> starting point. We are speculating on personal cases that do not reflect 
> society as a whole.
> 
> From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:40 PM
> 
> 
>> I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people 
>> from all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And 
>> more importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be 
>> a valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about 
>> difficult art. What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at 
>> too, is the idea that a person is less likely to care about 
>> intellectually challenging work when they are on the lower end of the 
>> economic ladder. I don't think there's any reason to hold that opinion 
>> unless you also hold the opinion that difficult work is the exclusive 
>> privilege of Bataille's accursed share. I don't see any reason to 
>> believe that a person's socio-economic status has a great deal of sway 
>> over how they spend their leisure time, and saying otherwise gets my 
>> back up a bit because it strikes me as reinforcing cultural 
>> stereotypes of the poor as a great unwashed mass who are too tired, 
>> uneducated, and stupid to have a vivid intellectual life. I'm no 
>> sociologist, but i feel compelled to say that in my empirical 
>> experience of society, that stereotype has no foundation in reality.
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 15 18:17:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:17:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
References: <781780.22698.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><010101c77fa4$667b28e0$d0af3852@ANNY>	<46229BB6.3030209@myuw.net><014e01c77fa9$04f8c000$d0af3852@ANNY>
	<4622A404.5060804@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <019001c77fab$d4d8c660$d0af3852@ANNY>

I am therefore insulted by my own words. If this is the message you get, 
then let's leave it like that. It is past midnight here, I cannot repeat 
further what I am not able to explain. good night Jason.

From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 12:15 AM


> I've been a private tutor myself, and i know just how worthless those 
> private lessons can be for a kid, who will never the less go to a good 
> school, get a good job, and make a lot of money and their entire life will 
> still be dead to a life of the mind. just look at the current us president 
> for a paradigm case.
>
> Moreover, i don't think that it's strictly a function of formal education 
> that leads to an interest in art. i'm not just talking about the one's who 
> will shine in the future, but of the ones for whom reading difficult books 
> is a welcome and enjoyable pastime. A lot of those people will live and 
> die poor and no one will ever hear about them, and realistically, there 
> are a lot of people like that. a lot. Are the exceptional? yes. But that 
> doesn't make them the rare exceptions among the rabble that you and James 
> seem to want to paint them as. My point is that there are a lot more than 
> you're giving credit for, and that it's not going against type to be a 
> broke intellectual. I'm basing that on my personal experience of living 
> and working with the people you and James are insulting. And i'm basing 
> the fact that it's insulting on the fact that I am one of those people, 
> and i feel insulted by this position that you have both taken.
>
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> Jason,
>>
>> I know kids are lazy. I have been teaching enough to know it very well. 
>> And I know that I have given a heap of private lessons to kids whose 
>> families have plenty of money to pay for private tuition. Those who were 
>> poorer did not get that kind of extra thinking especially forged for them 
>> to get them to university and to try to get something into their heads. I 
>> do not think that poorer people are more intelligent than the richer or 
>> vice-versa, but I do think that the richer have easier means to get to 
>> think on things if they want to. I also know that out of all those poor 
>> kids there are some who are particularly stubborn and that are  able to 
>> get through it all thanks to their brains and stubbornness and talent. If 
>> they are able to persist, they will be the ones who will shine in the 
>> future. But realistically, how many are they?
>>
>> And as I said before, I think this discussion is diverting from the 
>> starting point. We are speculating on personal cases that do not reflect 
>> society as a whole.
>>
>> From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 11:40 PM
>>
>>
>>> I don't think that either Amy or I are saying that there aren't people 
>>> from all social strata that don't care for that sort of thing. And more 
>>> importantly, I don't think it's even necessary for a person to be a 
>>> valuable and contributing member of society that they do care about 
>>> difficult art. What I rankle at, and I think Laura and Amy rankle at 
>>> too, is the idea that a person is less likely to care about 
>>> intellectually challenging work when they are on the lower end of the 
>>> economic ladder. I don't think there's any reason to hold that opinion 
>>> unless you also hold the opinion that difficult work is the exclusive 
>>> privilege of Bataille's accursed share. I don't see any reason to 
>>> believe that a person's socio-economic status has a great deal of sway 
>>> over how they spend their leisure time, and saying otherwise gets my 
>>> back up a bit because it strikes me as reinforcing cultural stereotypes 
>>> of the poor as a great unwashed mass who are too tired, uneducated, and 
>>> stupid to have a vivid intellectual life. I'm no sociologist, but i feel 
>>> compelled to say that in my empirical experience of society, that 
>>> stereotype has no foundation in reality.
>>>
>>
>>




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:36:04 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:36:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
Message-ID: <c68.104debc4.335402d4@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:37:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:

Oh,  well, if Bernstein's idea was inspired by Howard's, or even worse:  if  
there is a lineage or genealogy to this kind of thinking about poetry's  
commodification, then certainly the ideas and the questioning itself are  complete 
bunk!  Might as well throw out most philosophical texts too,  since 
philosophers generally respond to texts that preceded them, weighing  those texts' 
applicability, echoing them, building on them, etc -- and hey,  throw out any other 
discipline and thinking that didn't emerge from a vacuum,  just born by the 
hand of god or a 'muse', etc. 

But just how does  Howard's "Garboing" apply to and nullify the contents of 
Bernstein's essay  again?
Amy,
I'm not certain poetry book sales have reached a level that would even  
justify a term like 'commodification'... 

I wanted to make the point that Bernstein was taking on  an easy target 
(Nat'l Po Month/Academy of American Poets) and was not  even the first to get there.
Finnegan



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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:37:17 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:37:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <bed.d214734.3354031d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:47:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
SLIDINGSCA at aol.com writes:

Damn,  most of the people who create difficult art are poor.


That's true...that' s not the same as being the audience for  it.
Finnegan



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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:44:49 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:44:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <c7c.bb75106.335404e1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 6:08:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
LauraHeidy at aol.com writes:

Most of 'em also know how to walk to the library.
 
Really they do.
 
What better way is there to fill "leisure" time when you have no  money left 
after changing bedpans all day, anyhow?
 
Lo



 
Lo, really...are people in your neighborhood walking to the library to  pull 
Chas. Bernstein (or Billy Collins) off the shelves? They're closing  library 
branches (or limiting hours) and 'deacquisitioning' books where I  live.
Finnegan




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From SLIDINGSCA at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:53:29 2007
From: SLIDINGSCA at aol.com (SLIDINGSCA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:53:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <c87.f4a3ce6.335406e9@aol.com>

 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 6:45:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Lo,  really...are people in your neighborhood walking to the library to pull  
Chas. Bernstein (or Billy Collins) off the shelves? They're closing  library 
branches (or limiting hours) and 'deacquisitioning' books where I  live.
Finnegan


Fairly rich politicians determine library hours  (excuse my  class biases).
 

Larissa  Shmailo
_http://myspace.com/larissaworld_ (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) 
_http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo_ (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo) 
_http://larissashmailo.blogspot.com_ (http://larissashmailo.blogspot.com) 





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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:00:09 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:00:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <cf8.b799d10.33540879@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 6:14:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  
writes:

I'm  basing that on my personal experience of living and working 
with the  people you and James are insulting.


Jason, that's not true. The point I was making is that difficult and  edgy 
poetry/art is, in some ways, an acquired taste...one that requires either  the 
means or sufficient education to approach. (But there are exceptions....tho  
you seem to be romanticizing the numbers somewhat.) You said  you have no TV, 
which makes you an 'outsider' in the  culture. What level of education have you 
acheived? Don't tell me you're a  high-school dropout or I'll really be 
struggling in this argument.
Finnegan 



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From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:01:24 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:01:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <c99.d448652.335408c4@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 6:45:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Lo,  really...are people in your neighborhood walking to the library to pull  
Chas. Bernstein (or Billy Collins) off the shelves? 


I did - my kids did.  Their friends did.  I presume their kids  will, too.
 
As for closing libraries in neighborhoods, perhaps it depends where the  
neighborhood is?  Ours is open 7 days a week.... 12 hours a day Monday thru  
Thursday, 9 hours on Friday, 8 hours on Saturday and 4 on Sunday  afternoon.
 
In fact - here's the schedule:

_Charles E.  Beatley, Jr. Central Library_ 
(http://www.alexandria.lib.va.us/branches/beatley.html) 
5005 Duke Street
Alexandria, VA  22304-2903
tel:  703-519-5900
fax: 703-519-5915 
Monday-Thursday: 9am to 9pm
Friday: 9am to 6pm
Saturday: 9am to  5pm
Sunday: 1pm to 5pm




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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:03:36 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:03:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <cba.fbb13a2.33540948@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 7:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
LauraHeidy at aol.com writes:

_Charles E.  Beatley, Jr. Central Library_ 
(http://www.alexandria.lib.va.us/branches/beatley.html) 
5005 Duke Street
Alexandria, VA  22304-2903
tel:  703-519-5900
fax: 703-519-5915 


Nice town.
Finnegan



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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 19:03:57 2007
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2cents from Francypants
In-Reply-To: <200704152138.l3FLcCUS002803@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <339511.64330.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

All,
Not taking sides here, as it's not a debate I find
particularly useful for anybody, in the final analysis
(I've rarely seen anyone cast the issue in a very
original light, to say the least). Just pointing out a
disturbing famous book on the subject: Bourdieu's
_Distinction_. 
Please note that this book has been abundantly
criticized, but I'm not familiar with the objections
(maybe someone else is). For starters, things may be
different in the US and in France, and between 1979ish
and 2007. In any event, his work does NOT reflect my
own opinions, on the contrary, I desperately hope he's
wrong, and I think it's a much better idea to assume
he is, and to hunt for counter-evidence.
This French empirical sociologist sought to establish
-- through statistics and case studies -- that there
is indeed a link between esthetic taste and
socioeconomic strata. Ie, to some extent, that the
"bourgeois" *tend* to listen to MusicianX, and the
"lower class" to MusicianY. The distinction doesn't
have anything to do with levels of sophistication of
the art consumed by given groups, and Bourdieu's
division of the population is considerably more
sophisticated than this old bourgeois/proletariat
dichotomy (it has to do with horizontal distinctions
of milieu much finer than white vs. blue collars). 
Much more disturbing than his observation of
socioeconomic differences in artistic taste and
frequency of art-consumption, is his contention that
you can't *learn* to appreciate art different than the
kind you've been exposed to as a youth. This is based
on observations that statistically, radical shifts in
individuals' art-consumption seem to be extremely
rare. Ie, the bourgeois doesn't seem to start
listening to MusicianY very often, nor the proletarian
to MusicianX. According to Bourdieu, the Amy Kings and
Jason Quackenbushes of the world are few and far
between.
I can't post this without cringing in fear of
retribution, but I'm very much hoping people will
bring some antiBourdieu scholarship to the table, and
maybe shift discussion away from anger. For my part, I
don't think James meant anything so offensive --
email's a treacherous medium -- but in any event I'd
agree with Amy and Jason where the ideological problem
of class prejudice is concerned, and then some.
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet



From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:09:31 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:09:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <d4e.6eb3527.33540aab@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 7:00:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

What  level of education have you acheived? Don't tell me you're a 
high-school  dropout or I'll really be struggling in this argument.


Well, you didn't ask me, and I can't reply for Jason,  and I'm a TV  owning, 
library-goer, but I never got a diploma from anywhere or  anything....unless 
you count 8th grade.
 
Lo
 
P.S. Achieved is spelled IE not EI  (sorry, I know it's probably a  typo but 
it was too good of an opportunity to simply pass  up)



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From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:10:22 2007
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:10:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
Message-ID: <bfd.f5acfb5.33540ade@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 7:04:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Nice  town.



Good library system.
 
Besides, I love having a library card that says "The Library at  Alexandria"



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From SLIDINGSCA at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:12:47 2007
From: SLIDINGSCA at aol.com (SLIDINGSCA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:12:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good one
Message-ID: <c8a.99818b8.33540b6f@aol.com>

i before e, and the library at Alexandria--thanks!
 
LOL
 

Larissa  Shmailo
_http://myspace.com/larissaworld_ (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) 
_http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo_ (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo) 
_http://larissashmailo.blogspot.com_ (http://larissashmailo.blogspot.com/) 




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From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 19:24:13 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:24:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <cf8.b799d10.33540879@aol.com>
References: <cf8.b799d10.33540879@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4622B41D.1040406@myuw.net>

I have dual bachelor of arts degrees in music and philosophy. They took me ten years to earn, off and on, because i was working full time for most of 
the time i was in school. I made sacrifices because learning was important to me, and I'm not the only person who has ever done so. I won't argue with 
you that what we're discussing in the arts is somewhat an acquired taste, it is. But I do disagree that it's a taste that's difficult to acquire, or 
something that one is only inclined to acquire if one has the leisure of a 60 thousand dollar a year salary. And if i'm romanticizing the numbers, i 
really wouldn't know. Like I said, I'm not a sociologist, and I'm only speaking from personal experience, and while most of my social circle is from 
the same socio-economic background that I come from, all of them have some degree of appreciation for difficulty in the art that they like. For some 
it's difficult music; I have a friend (who, incidentally, is a high school drop out who later earned his GED and got a BA in English) who hugely 
adores Glenn Branca, john Zorn, marc ribot and various other musicians from the "downtown scene" in New York. He also reads a lot of French lit, has 
read a lot of Genet and most of the Nouveau Roman writers. And he's a bartender in the Tacoma hilltop neighborhood, which hasn't QUITE gentrified yet. 
Another friend, not a high school dropout but she works as a barista and took out massive loans to get her liberal arts degree at Evergreen state and 
still hasn't completed it, who loves experimental novelists like David Markson and Kathy Acker. My girlfriend has taken a couple of accounting classes 
at a junior college, but she can't get enough of otherstream poetry. I know a couple of painters with similar educational backgrounds to her who 
learned about what they do by spending a lot of time out wandering the Seattle Art Museum, the galleries in Seattle's pioneer square during their open 
houses and reading art books in the public libraries. What i'm trying to illustrate isn't that it does take some work to be involved in the arts or 
that my friends aren't exceptional people, they are. I just don't think it's fair to people like us, who haven't had much of the accursed share in our 
lives, to say that the class of people we belong to aren't the audience for this kind of work and that we're outliers in general cultural trends.  I 
think it's obvious that disinterest in the arts cuts across class boundaries and what i find insulting is the suggestion that it's limited to the poor.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/15/2007 6:14:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jfq at myuw.net writes:
> 
>     I'm basing that on my personal experience of living and working
>     with the people you and James are insulting.
> 
> Jason, that's not true. The point I was making is that difficult and 
> edgy poetry/art is, in some ways, an acquired taste...one that requires 
> either the means or sufficient education to approach. (But there are 
> exceptions....tho you seem to be romanticizing the 
> numbers somewhat.) You said you have no TV, which makes you an 
> 'outsider' in the culture. What level of education have you acheived? 
> Don't tell me you're a high-school dropout or I'll really be struggling 
> in this argument.
> Finnegan 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr 15 19:50:22 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:50:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
In-Reply-To: <c68.104debc4.335402d4@aol.com>
References: <c68.104debc4.335402d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4622BA3E.2030905@opus40.org>

I do think it's complete bunk, but not because Bernstein was or was not 
inspired by Howard, any more than I would say to you, or anyone else who 
agrees with Bernstein and Howard, that oh, well, if Bernstein said it, 
that must be why you believe it's true.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:37:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:
>
>     Oh, well, if Bernstein's idea was inspired by Howard's, or even
>     worse:  if there is a lineage or genealogy to this kind of
>     thinking about poetry's commodification, then certainly the ideas
>     and the questioning itself are complete bunk!  Might as well throw
>     out most philosophical texts too, since philosophers generally
>     respond to texts that preceded them, weighing those texts'
>     applicability, echoing them, building on them, etc -- and hey,
>     throw out any other discipline and thinking that didn't emerge
>     from a vacuum, just born by the hand of god or a 'muse', etc.
>
>     But just how does Howard's "Garboing" apply to and nullify the
>     contents of Bernstein's essay again?
>
> Amy,
> I'm not certain poetry book sales have reached a level that would even 
> justify a term like 'commodification'... 
> I wanted to make the point that Bernstein was taking on an easy target 
> (Nat'l Po Month/Academy of American Poets) and was not even the first 
> to get there.
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com 
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Apr 15 19:53:45 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:53:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2cents from Francypants
In-Reply-To: <339511.64330.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <339511.64330.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4622BB09.8090506@myuw.net>

This has got me thinking if perhaps the trend i've been noticing and arguing for is maybe a fairly recent cultural development. Certainly almost 
everyone in my social circle on whom I'm basing my arguments are people who came of age and formed their opinions about things in a counterculture 
that placed a heavy value on otherness and difficulty. I don't know what or when that shift happened, but my impression is that there has been a 
leveling of access to counterculture values over the last 20 years in that it's now possible for anyone to be involved in that system of counter 
values, regardless of socio-economic status. I wonder if that might be coloring my opinion in a way that it isn't coloring the opinions of others 
involved in this discussion?

Alexander Dickow wrote:
> All,
> Not taking sides here, as it's not a debate I find
> particularly useful for anybody, in the final analysis
> (I've rarely seen anyone cast the issue in a very
> original light, to say the least). Just pointing out a
> disturbing famous book on the subject: Bourdieu's
> _Distinction_. 
> Please note that this book has been abundantly
> criticized, but I'm not familiar with the objections
> (maybe someone else is). For starters, things may be
> different in the US and in France, and between 1979ish
> and 2007. In any event, his work does NOT reflect my
> own opinions, on the contrary, I desperately hope he's
> wrong, and I think it's a much better idea to assume
> he is, and to hunt for counter-evidence.
> This French empirical sociologist sought to establish
> -- through statistics and case studies -- that there
> is indeed a link between esthetic taste and
> socioeconomic strata. Ie, to some extent, that the
> "bourgeois" *tend* to listen to MusicianX, and the
> "lower class" to MusicianY. The distinction doesn't
> have anything to do with levels of sophistication of
> the art consumed by given groups, and Bourdieu's
> division of the population is considerably more
> sophisticated than this old bourgeois/proletariat
> dichotomy (it has to do with horizontal distinctions
> of milieu much finer than white vs. blue collars). 
> Much more disturbing than his observation of
> socioeconomic differences in artistic taste and
> frequency of art-consumption, is his contention that
> you can't *learn* to appreciate art different than the
> kind you've been exposed to as a youth. This is based
> on observations that statistically, radical shifts in
> individuals' art-consumption seem to be extremely
> rare. Ie, the bourgeois doesn't seem to start
> listening to MusicianY very often, nor the proletarian
> to MusicianX. According to Bourdieu, the Amy Kings and
> Jason Quackenbushes of the world are few and far
> between.
> I can't post this without cringing in fear of
> retribution, but I'm very much hoping people will
> bring some antiBourdieu scholarship to the table, and
> maybe shift discussion away from anger. For my part, I
> don't think James meant anything so offensive --
> email's a treacherous medium -- but in any event I'd
> agree with Amy and Jason where the ideological problem
> of class prejudice is concerned, and then some.
> Amicalement,
> Alex
> 
> www.alexdickow.net/blog/
>    
>   les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
>   merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Apr 15 21:24:01 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:24:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2cents from Francypants
References: 339511.64330.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Message-ID: <013401c77fc5$ee445910$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Well, I don't think much of the findings of any sociologist, but this one's 
sound particularly weird to me.  If you only can appreciate what you've been 
exposed to in youth, how does art advance?

--Bob 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun Apr 15 22:17:26 2007
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:17:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tracking the Elusive SoQ
In-Reply-To: <DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
	<DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6574B10B-0CF7-4D20-9D89-FED497DFDE52@earthlink.net>

I love that Ashbery presents such weird problems for the lang-types  
who want to condemn others to "SoQ" or whatever they wish to call it...
in this poem (though a short, and relatively 'slight' one for what JA  
was doing at this time, when the lang-pos were just starting to wage  
their young turk schtick--ah the summer of sam and sex pistols and  
the death of robert lowell....),
what Ashbery does with, say, the phrase "simple unconscious dignity"  
in the final lines of the poem
can be, I suppose, taken an endless number of ways---but it does seem  
held as a value,
and while that could seem to defend something like "SoQ" too much to  
those who see it as an abnegation of responsibility,
or "engaged poetry," it also has a force that can be seen as a  
'corrective' (at the very least) to the perils of over-consciousness
that can lead so many to irony, or having very few values like  
'language itself'--
But Ashbery doesn't do this by scolding, as I feel say Robert Hass  
(his blackberry poem) or Robert Duncan or others
(interesting that I'm choosing poets celebrated in the Bay Area, as  
examples here) who often get celebrated as
"serious" and "visionaries," do. Rather, in appealing to the  
suggestive intelligence, even in the modesty of this poem
("narrow ravines"--"might still be putting out shoots"), Ashbery  
seems to leave rooms for all kinds of possibility of languaging,
from that called SoQ to that which criticizes it....

Chris

On Apr 15, 2007, at 6:57 AM, David Graham wrote:

> For some reason I'm not ready to investigate right now, the phrase  
> "elusive SoQ" reminded me of this poem.
>
> I confess I haven't been keeping up with the great SoQ-hunt much,  
> and so don't even know if the Pope has officially inducted little  
> JA into the school yet.  Still, "this poetry of mud" does make me  
> smile.
>
> Crazy Weather
>
> It's this crazy weather we've been having:
> Falling forward one minute, lying down the next
> Among the loose grasses and soft, white, nameless flowers.
> People have been making a garment out of it,
> Stitching the white of lilacs together with lightning
> At some anonymous crossroads. The sky calls
> To the deaf earth. The proverbial disarray
> Of morning corrects itself as you stand up.
> You are wearing a text. The lines
> Droop to your shoelaces and I shall never want or need
> Any other literature than this poetry of mud
> And ambitious reminiscences of times when it came easily
> Through the then woods and ploughed fields and had
> A simple unconscious dignity we can never hope to
> Approximate now except in narrow ravines nobody
> Will inspect where some late sample of the rare,
> Uninteresting specimen might still be putting out shoots,for all we  
> know.
>
> --John Ashbery.  Houseboat Days. Penguin, 1977.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> On Apr 15, 2007, at 4:27 AM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
>> From Blogger Tom Morgan, a genealogy:
>>
>> Looking at the early (2003) posts on Silliman's Blog, I pieced  
>> together a SoQ lineage. The unbroken chain looks something like  
>> this: [post 1810*] William Wordsworth, Alfred Tennyson, John  
>> Greenleaf Whittier, Oliver Wendell Holmes, William Cullen Bryant,  
>> Sidney Lanier, James Russell Lowell, Conrad Aiken, Archibald  
>> MacLeish, Robert Lowell, Randall Jarrell, James Merrill, Galway  
>> Kinnell, James Wright, Robert Pinsky, and so forth. Robert Frost,  
>> of course, should fit in here somewhere.
>>
>> http://inthebecomingundone.blogspot.com/2007/04/origins-of-soq.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 09:54:56 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:54:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tracking the Elusive SoQ
Message-ID: <bc2.c1f8ac7.3354da30@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/15/2007 10:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:

Any other literature than this poetry of  mud
And ambitious reminiscences of times when it came  easily
Through the then woods and ploughed fields and  had
A simple unconscious dignity we can never hope  to
Approximate now except in narrow ravines  nobody
Will inspect where some late sample of the  rare,
Uninteresting specimen might still be putting out  shoots,for all we know.

Also some little echoes of the 'ars poetica' notions of 
Eliot--
Trying to use words, and every attempt
Is a wholy new start, and a  different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of  words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is  no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid  on the inarticulate,
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the  general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion. And  what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been  discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To  emulate - but there is no competition -
There is only the fight to recover  what has been lost
And found and lost again and again: and now, under  conditions
That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss.
For  us, there is only the trying. The rest is not  our
business.

and Auden--
For poetry makes nothing happen: it survives  
In the valley of its making where executives 
Would never want to tamper,  flows on south 
>From ranches of isolation and the busy griefs, 
Raw towns  that we believe and die in; it survives, 
A way of happening, a mouth.  

--
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 10:50:58 2007
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:50:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] NatPoMo
In-Reply-To: <c49.df600fc.3353fc3c@aol.com>
References: <c49.df600fc.3353fc3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480704160750g5bdb531bl77f0106e2bbb5370@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, most people know how to get to the library, whether they have the
time or energy after dealing with domestic life, I very much doubt.
Whether it's the best use of their resources, you and I might think
so; I don't think that's a universal view.

I was thinking that the time-poor label also applies to a lot of
today's professional classes. Money-rich but time-poor, and in my
limited experience, the culturally poorer for it as well. Any leisure
time that people may have had seems to be eaten up by the corporations
they work, assuming that they work.

Roger

On 4/16/07, LauraHeidy at aol.com <LauraHeidy at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:58:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> rog3r.day at gmail.com writes:
> The poor have less leisure time, have less money to spend on these
> privileged resources.
>
>
> Most of 'em also know how to walk to the library.
>
> Really they do.
>
> What better way is there to fill "leisure" time when you have no money left
> after changing bedpans all day, anyhow?
>
> Lo
>
>
> ________________________________
> See what's free at AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 11:08:32 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:08:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against National Poetry Month
Message-ID: <c79.10bb3e5e.3354eb70@aol.com>

I had a chance to reread Bernstein's amusing diatribe. National Poetry  Month 
is certainly just a promotional gimmick cooked up by the Academy of  American 
Poets. But, then again, that's mission of the Academy, to find ways to  
promote poetry and poets in this country. That the wrong poets or  poetries, from 
Bernstein's point of view, are being promoted is  probably not surprising to 
anyone either. Although, as we know, these days,  poets like Lyn Hejinian and 
Nathanial Mackey and Michael  Palmer have been or are currently Chancellors of 
the Academy.  So I guess his allies haven't yet got the numbers or upperhand 
enough to  nix Nat'l Poetry Month or to move it in a direction that would meet  
with Charles' approval.
 
There have been many other poetry marketing initiatives over the years  (some 
silly, some serious, some modestly successful). Poetry in the Schools  
programs, Poetry on Subways/Buses, Jos. Brodsky's project to buy poetry  anthologies 
and to slip them into hotel rooms next to the Gideon  Bibles, etc. Most of 
the National Poet Laureates over the last  decade have initiated various poetry 
promotions: Pinsky's Favorite Poem  Project, Billy Collins' Poetry 101, etc. 
And there have been many  guerilla marketing campaigns too: Individual poets 
printing chapbooks of  their work and smuggling them into doctor's waiting rooms 
 alongside the glossy mass distribution magazines or pasting  broadsheets 
over the glass fronts of newspaper boxes (verse vandalism). 
 
A couple of thoughts: It doesn't surprise me that controversial or  difficult 
kinds of poetry are not represented in the promotions of  Nat'l Poetry Month. 
It's not meant to be an effort to stir controversy or  engender befuddlement 
among the populace at large, nor is it an effort to expand  the boundaries of 
what the 'man on the street' might recognize as  poetry. It's simply an effort 
to create a bit more awareness that  poetry is an art form that is alive and 
well (it didn't die  out sometime in the last century) and that people ought  
to pay a little more attention to it. For example, many city Symphony 
Orchestras  have free summer series and Pops concerts for much same purpose. To 
promote  awareness, to hopefully drag in a few audience members outside their core  
demographic (older, wealthier). I think the hope is that if your  symphony 
plays "Bolero" in the park on a nice summer evening,  then maybe, just maybe, 
someone who attends will hestitate the next time  his/her car radio hovers over 
the classical station, and maybe listen to  something more challenging, and 
possibly get hooked on classical music.  Whether the world really works that way 
is an open question. 
 
If we think of poetry as pharmacological language, then  some poems may be 
better 'gateway drugs' than others. If I  were trying to get a kid hooked on 
Stevens, for example, I might start him  with an Art Deco ditty like "The Emperor 
of Ice-Cream" before  introducing "Comedian As The Letter C.  Both as a 
matter of  length (attention span constraints must be considered) and as a matter 
of  difficulty to apprehend.
 
Finnegan
 
 
 
 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 16 13:40:19 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:40:19 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia Tech Shooting
Message-ID: <002301c7804e$4dc02170$ceaf3452@ANNY>

This is terrifying, from my position I am pushed to think they are mining the American educational system, who they may be will remain an unanswered question:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/us/16cnd-shooting.html?hp



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:17:01 2007
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:17:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2cents contd
In-Reply-To: <200704161600.l3GG05US020737@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <594949.66192.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Bob,
My tortuous explanation is probably to blame for why
his arguments seem "weird" -- I'd qualify them as
scary. Summing up 700pp of sociology's a bit of a
tough task for a listserv. What Bourdieu does is
essentially to take a *very* old idea -- the supposed
impossibility of "real" social climbing -- and applies
it to art. Think of the 17th-century bourgeois or
peasant trying to be a nobleman, and failing. But I
certainly wonder, with Jason, whether things haven't
changed a good deal over the last 20 years. Jason, Amy
and I were all born within a few years of each other
(and not in France, neither). 
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet



From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 16:24:57 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:24:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia Tech Shooting
In-Reply-To: <002301c7804e$4dc02170$ceaf3452@ANNY>
References: <002301c7804e$4dc02170$ceaf3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <8C94E7C6FB5720C-1DF4-74A4@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>

This is a terrible thing... & you may have noticed that this is the school that hosts our listserv. 
Jim F 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia Tech Shooting


This is terrifying, from my position I am pushed to think they are mining the American educational system, who they may be will remain an unanswered question:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/us/16cnd-shooting.html?hp
 
 
 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 16 16:27:20 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:27:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia Tech Shooting
References: <002301c7804e$4dc02170$ceaf3452@ANNY>
	<8C94E7C6FB5720C-1DF4-74A4@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <007401c78065$a2384f40$1da93452@ANNY>

and it is the school that hosts Joel Weishaus' online archive.
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:24 PM


  This is a terrible thing... & you may have noticed that this is the school that hosts our listserv. 
  Jim F
   
  -----Original Message-----
  From: anny.ballardini at tin.it
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 1:40 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia Tech Shooting


  This is terrifying, from my position I am pushed to think they are mining the American educational system, who they may be will remain an unanswered question:
  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/us/16cnd-shooting.html?hp


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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 16:51:33 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:51:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hobble Creek Review
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704161351l3fc343fakaf2d27414602d81a@mail.gmail.com>

Justin Evans' Hobble Creek Review is in its second issue.

Stop by & take a look:  http://www.hobblecreekreview.net/Current_Issue.html

There are some poems there by a dude named Newberry.  Not sure I know of him
...

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 16 16:59:20 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:59:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: University of Minnesota Press sale on art and
	aesthetics books
Message-ID: <009501c7806a$1b0c5430$1da93452@ANNY>

University of Minnesota Press sale on art and aesthetics books
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stacy Lienemann 
To: University of Minnesota Press 
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: University of Minnesota Press sale on art and aesthetics books


16 days left 

University of Minnesota Press 
sale on art and aesthetics books

30% off!

Use code MN6711067114 at check out 

http://www.upress.umn.edu/salecatalog/Art07.htm

                 





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From screwzbaran at gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 17:01:55 2007
From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:01:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: University of Minnesota Press sale on art and
	aesthetics books
In-Reply-To: <009501c7806a$1b0c5430$1da93452@ANNY>
References: <009501c7806a$1b0c5430$1da93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0704161401x3033be64q712f91167840ac2a@mail.gmail.com>

What do you think of Kimiko Hahn?

She read some poems yesterday in Southern Ca. An event sponsored by Red Hen
press.

In Childhood by Kimiko Hahn
 things don't die or remain damaged
but return: stumps grow back hands,
a head reconnects to a neck,
a whole corpse rises blushing and newly elastic.
Later this vision is not True:
the grandmother remains dead
not hibernating in a wolf's belly.
Or the blue parakeet does not return
from the little grave in the fern garden
though one may wake in the morning
thinking mother's call is the bird.
Or maybe the bird is with grandmother
inside light. Or grandmother was the bird
and is now the dog
gnawing on the chair leg.
Where do the gone things go
when the child is old enough
to walk herself to school,
her playmates already
pumping so high the swing hiccups?


On 4/16/07, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Stacy Lienemann <lieneman at umn.edu>
> *To:* University of Minnesota Press <zellm003 at umn.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 16, 2007 10:30 PM
> *Subject:* University of Minnesota Press sale on art and aesthetics books
>
> 16 days left
>
> *University of Minnesota Press
> sale on art and aesthetics books
> *
> 30% off!
>
> Use code *MN6711067114* at check out
>
> http://www.upress.umn.edu/salecatalog/Art07.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"To be shaken out of the ruts of ordinary perception, to be shown for a few
timeless hours the outer and inner world, not as they appear to an animal
obsessed with survival or to a human being obsessed with words and notions,
but as they are apprehended, directly and unconditionally, by Mind at Large?
this is an experience of inestimable value to everyone and especially to the
intellectual."  - Aldous Huxley
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 17:24:07 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:24:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
	<DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94E84B34BA7CD-1DF4-77F3@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>

School of Quietude v. Langpooh School
 
School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets
 
School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird
 
School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists  
(feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature) 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 17:50:40 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:50:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <8C94E84B34BA7CD-1DF4-77F3@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org>
	<DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
	<8C94E84B34BA7CD-1DF4-77F3@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704161450t7b0a732eud2a4780fdd6202f2@mail.gmail.com>

School of Quietude v. School of Louditude?

On 4/16/07, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> School of Quietude v. Langpooh School
>
> School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets
>
> School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird
>
> School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists
>
> (feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature)
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
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-- 
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longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Apr 16 17:55:32 2007
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:55:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hobble Creek Review
Message-ID: <1221.1176760532@opus40.org>

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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Apr 16 18:01:36 2007
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:01:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer
Message-ID: <1418.1176760896@opus40.org>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Apr 16 22:38:12 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:38:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org><DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>
	8C94E84B34BA7CD-1DF4-77F3@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com
Message-ID: <022a01c78099$739d78c0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  School of Quietude v. Langpooh School

  School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets

  School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird

  School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists 
  (feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature) 

  I was ruminating on the term, "School of Quietude" today also.  My term for its opposite: "School of Socio-Political Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name, though.  I feel I'm half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S of Q but pro-innovation so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used to be pro-innovation.  Even if it never was or will be, I'd pick it before I'd pick the S of S-P S-R, because literature is more important by a lot to me than social justice, even by my definition of the latter.  Sorry, kids.

  --Bob
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 23:16:48 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <022a01c78099$739d78c0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <960134.5341.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Finding this message, after one glass of wine, I feel like I'm pointlessly eavesdropping in a line at Starbuck's, desperately so since I often go when on Long Island, where indie coffee shops are truly passe (and financially incapable of survival) -- what is all of this 'mushy talk' ("Langpooh?" "Gird" etc), as Diane Ladd's character asks of Robert Duvall's in a pivotal feminist scene of the film, "Rambling Rose"?

And Old Mole, just what is "bunk" about the Bernstein essay?  You never did say ... just a declaration of such ... 

Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:       
 
    School of Quietude v. Langpooh School
    
   School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets
    
   School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird
    
   School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists 
    
   (feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature) 
    
   I was ruminating on the term, "School of Quietude" today    also.  My term for its opposite: "School of Socio-Political    Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name, though.  I feel I'm    half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S of Q but pro-innovation    so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used to be pro-innovation.  Even if    it never was or will be, I'd pick it before I'd pick the S of S-P S-R, because    literature is more important by a lot to me than social justice, even by my    definition of the latter.  Sorry, kids.
    
   --Bob


       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 17 04:59:46 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:59:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer
References: <1418.1176760896@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003401c780ce$bff4d3a0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

Don't you find that "Flounder" poem a bit contrived?

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
  To: opus40-01 at opus40.org ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 5:01 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer


    2007 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry to Native Guard by Natasha Trethewey.



    Here's one from her first collection, Domestic Work.

          Flounder   
         

         
Here, she said, put this on your head. 

She handed me a hat. 

you 'bout as white as your dad, 

and you gone stay like that. 

Aunt Sugar rolled her nylons down 

around each bony ankle, 

and I rolled down my white knee socks 

letting my thin legs dangle, 

circling them just above water 

and silver backs of minnows 

flitting here then there between 

the sun spots and the shadows. 

This is how you hold the pole

to cast the line out straight. 

Now put that worm on your hook, 

throw it out and wait. 

She sat spitting tobacco juice 

into a coffee cup. 

Hunkered down when she felt the bite, 

jerked the pole straight up 

reeling and tugging hard at the fish 

that wriggled and tried to fight back. 

A flounder, she said, and you can tell 

'cause one of its sides is black. 

The other is white, she said. 

It landed with a thump. 

I stood there watching that fish flip-flop, 

switch sides with every jump. 






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 17 05:03:11 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:03:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
References: <4621E1EA.5060307@opus40.org><DD69912F-30C9-47AB-A5BF-D914FCB57BC2@ripon.edu>8C94E84B34BA7CD-1DF4-77F3@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com
	<022a01c78099$739d78c0$75fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004201c780cf$3a4478e0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I agree with you, Bob.  Literature "tells it like it is," not "how it should be."

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who



   
    School of Quietude v. Langpooh School

    School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets

    School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird

    School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists 
    (feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature) 

    I was ruminating on the term, "School of Quietude" today also.  My term for its opposite: "School of Socio-Political Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name, though.  I feel I'm half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S of Q but pro-innovation so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used to be pro-innovation.  Even if it never was or will be, I'd pick it before I'd pick the S of S-P S-R, because literature is more important by a lot to me than social justice, even by my definition of the latter.  Sorry, kids.

    --Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr 17 05:11:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:11:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer
References: <1418.1176760896@opus40.org>
	<003401c780ce$bff4d3a0$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <006b01c780d0$70610d70$c3af3252@ANNY>

I think, and hope, and am sure it is not her most representative, there is an implicit criticism by the OldMole in the choice of this particular poem, or?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Linda Sue Grimes 
  To: opus40-01 at opus40.org ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer


  Don't you find that "Flounder" poem a bit contrived?

  lsg
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
    To: opus40-01 at opus40.org ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views 
    Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 5:01 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer


      2007 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry to Native Guard by Natasha Trethewey.



      Here's one from her first collection, Domestic Work.

            Flounder   
           

           
Here, she said, put this on your head. 

She handed me a hat. 

you 'bout as white as your dad, 

and you gone stay like that. 

Aunt Sugar rolled her nylons down 

around each bony ankle, 

and I rolled down my white knee socks 

letting my thin legs dangle, 

circling them just above water 

and silver backs of minnows 

flitting here then there between 

the sun spots and the shadows. 

This is how you hold the pole

to cast the line out straight. 

Now put that worm on your hook, 

throw it out and wait. 

She sat spitting tobacco juice 

into a coffee cup. 

Hunkered down when she felt the bite, 

jerked the pole straight up 

reeling and tugging hard at the fish 

that wriggled and tried to fight back. 

A flounder, she said, and you can tell 

'cause one of its sides is black. 

The other is white, she said. 

It landed with a thump. 

I stood there watching that fish flip-flop, 

switch sides with every jump. 






----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr 17 06:44:08 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:44:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Views of American Landscapes
Message-ID: <001e01c780dd$543b5210$c3af3252@ANNY>

> From: Mick Gidley [mailto:G.M.Gidley at leeds.ac.uk] 
> Sent: dinsdag 10 april 2007 19:46

EAAS Book Back in Print by Popular Demand

Views of American Landscapes, ed. Mick Gidley & Robert Lawson Peebles, first
published in 1989, has recently been reprinted as a paperback by Cambridge
University Press

Views of American Landscapes, a structured collection of essays (most of
which were developed from papers given at an EAAS workshop in Budapest) has
227 pages and 32 illustrations.
Price: ?23.99 or $45.00.  ISBN: 0-521-03393-4.  Order from www.cambridge.org

Contents: 
Leo Marx, 'Foreword'
1. Mick Gidley & Robert Lawson-Peebles, 'Introduction' 
PROSPECTS
2. Clive Bush, '"Guilded Backgrounds": Reflections on the Perception of
Space and Landscape in America'
3. Olaf Hansen, 'The Impermanent Sublime: Nature, Photography and the
Petrarchan Tradition'
4. Stephen Fender, 'American Landscape and the Figure of Anticipation'
5. Philip Stokes, 'Trails of Topographic Notions: Expeditionary
Photography in the American West'
ANGLO-AMERICAN PERSPECTIVES
6. Robert Clark, 'The Absent Landscape of America's Eighteenth Century'
7. Christopher Mulvey, 'Ecriture and Landscape: British Writing on
Post-Revolutionary America'
8. Robert Lawson-Peebles, 'Dickens Goes West'
AMERICAN ILLUSTRATIONS
9. Francesca Orestano, 'The Old World and the New in the National
Landscapes of John Neal'
10. Graham Clarke, 'Landscape Painting and the Domestic Typology of
Post-Revolutionary America'
11. Bernard Mergen, 'Winter Landscape in the Early Republic: Survival
and Sentimentality'
12. Allen J. Koppenhaver, 'The Dark View of Things: The Isolated Figure
in the American Landscapes of Cole and Bryant'
13. Mick Gidley, 'The Figure of the Indian in Photographic Landscapes' 
Index

Contributors: 
(Details of affiliation, etc., at the time of original publication may be
found in the book's 'Notes on Contributors'.)
Clive Bush is Emeritus Professor of English & American Literature at Kings
College London; Robert Clark is Reader in English & American Literature at
the University of East Anglia; Graham Clarke, recently deceased, was
Emeritus Professor of Photography and Visual Arts at the University of Kent.
Stephen Fender is Emeritus Professor of American Studies at the University
of Sussex; Mick Gidley is Emeritus Professor of American Literature &
Culture at the University of Leeds; Olaf Hansen is Professor of American
Studies at the University of Frankfurt; Allen J. Koppenhaver, now deceased,
was Professor of English & American Studies at Wittenberg University, Ohio;
Robert Lawson-Peebles is Senior Lecturer in English at the University of
Exeter; Leo Marx is Emeritus William R. Kenan Jr Professor of American
Cultural History in the Program in Science, Technology and Society at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Bernard Mergen is Emeritus Professor
of American Civilization at George Washington University; Christopher Mulvey
is Emeritus Professor of English & American Studies at Winchester
University; Francesca Orestano is Professor of English at the University of
Milan; Philip Stokes, now deceased, was until his retirement in 1997, Senior
Lecturer in Photography at Nottingham Trent University.

Review comments: 
'In its acceptance of the essential interrelatedness of image and text, and
in its openness to speculation as a complement to close analysis, this is an
invaluable addition to the literature of American landscape studies' -Choice

'as Leo Marx notes in his instructive foreword, these [essays] deal
sequentially with the equivocal patrimony of Old World aesthetics, the
textual and visual evidence of Anglo-American relations, and representations
of the vernacular style grounded in the particulars of the American
experience.  They uncover a common nexus of problems in the endeavours to
read the landscape, whether in literary or visual terms' - Modern Language
Review

'the sheer breadth and diversity of subject matter presents a constant
challenge, which helps to make this such a readable book' - Landscape
Research 

'At its best the book genuinely puts theory to work through the analysis of
particulars, aided not a little by a generous number of plates and
illustrations - albeit in black and white only' -Notes and Queries

'Overall, Views of American Landscapes is a welcome addition to the growing
literature of landscape history'-Journal of American History

'It is a pity that the title of this book does not specify the dates of
coverage - roughly 1776 to 1900 - not so much for the sake of accuracy but
because to do so would prompt the hope that a twentieth-century sequel is
forthcoming' -Journal of American Studies   

Sequel:
Modern American Landscapes (1995), also edited by Mick Gidley and Robert
Lawson-Peebles, is still available in the EAAS-sponsored European
Contributions to American Studies Series published by VU University Press,
Amsterdam.

Modern American Landscapes, which concentrates on the twentieth century, has
291 pages and 16 illustrations. Contributors: Tim Armstrong, Neil
Badmington, William Boelhower, Christine Bold, Maria Diedrich, Mick Gidley,
Robert Lawson-Peebles, David E. Nye, Robert W. Rydell, William Sharpe,
Simone Vauthier.
 
Price: 45.92 Euros.  ISBN: 90-5383-208-4.  Order from www.vuboekhandel.nl



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr 17 09:04:17 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:04:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <960134.5341.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <960134.5341.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4624C5D1.7000909@opus40.org>

Amy - sorry about the short characterization, but in that note I was 
more focused on another issue. Actually, though, I thought I had given a 
longer criticism of Bernstein in an earlier note, although even that one 
was brief.

But, OK. I don't believe that calling attention to an art form is 
humiliating it by saying that it's not popular enough to stand on its 
own two feet. Movies do the same thing -- the Oscars may be a silly 
spectacle by many standards, but I don't think they humiliate movies by 
announcing that they haven't achieved sufficient market penetration and 
must be revived by the Artificial Resuscitation Foundation (ARF).

But poetry is, in my opinion at least, an art form that the public needs 
to be reminded of. I have spent some of my life in the classroom, and a 
good deal of that teaching core courses. In these classes, I've found 
that I make a mistake if I assume, going in, that everyone finds poetry 
as relevant and interesting as I do. One part of my job is to sell that 
notion to my students, and sometimes I succeed.  But I don't assume that 
poetry is somehow above it.

What are these "generic poetry" books? I actually honestly don't know 
what sort of books the Academy gives away. Is it generic stuff like 
Keats and Wordsworth? Williams and Stevens? Lowell and Sexton? Justice 
and Kees?

Is he complaining that NPM supports only the generic poetry he doesn't 
like, or "all poetry," presumably including stuff he might like? Or is 
he just complaining?

That's a start. I could do a better job of arguing against "generic," 
and "easy listening," if I knew what poetry, specifically, we were 
talking about.




amy king wrote:
> Finding this message, after one glass of wine, I feel like I'm 
> pointlessly eavesdropping in a line at Starbuck's, desperately so 
> since I often go when on Long Island, where indie coffee shops are 
> truly passe (and financially incapable of survival) -- what is all of 
> this 'mushy talk' ("Langpooh?" "Gird" etc), as Diane Ladd's character 
> asks of Robert Duvall's in a pivotal feminist scene of the film, 
> "Rambling Rose"?
>
> And Old Mole, just what is "bunk" about the Bernstein essay?  You 
> never did say ... just a declaration of such ...
>
> */Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>/* wrote:
>
>
>      
>
>         School of Quietude v. Langpooh School
>          
>         School of Quietude v. Artists Formerly Known As Poets
>          
>         School of Quietude v. The Avant Gird
>          
>         School of Quietude v. Expertmentalists
>          
>         (feel free to add your own derogatory binary nomeclature) 
>          
>         I was ruminating on the term, "School of Quietude" today
>         also.  My term for its opposite: "School of Socio-Political
>         Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name, though.  I
>         feel I'm half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S
>         of Q but pro-innovation so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used
>         to be pro-innovation.  Even if it never was or will be, I'd
>         pick it before I'd pick the S of S-P S-R, because literature
>         is more important by a lot to me than social justice, even by
>         my definition of the latter.  Sorry, kids.
>          
>         --Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 09:15:24 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:15:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
Message-ID: <c02.1380ee14.3356226c@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/16/2007 9:38:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

"School  of Quietude" today also.  My term for its opposite: "School of  
Socio-Political Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name,  though.  I feel 
I'm half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S  of Q but 
pro-innovation so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used to be  pro-innovation.  Even if it 
never was or will be, I'd pick it before I'd  pick the S of S-P S-R, because 
literature is more important by a lot to me  than social justice, even by my 
definition of the latter.
Bob,

Your moniker for the opposite is quite a mouthful. You usually have a  
catchier rubric for your groupings.
I like that Poe was the first to use the term School of Quietude. Many of  
'the innovative' are probably not claiming Poe as one of their  direct ancestor 
or influence. Seems like some innovators seem to think  they've sprung ex 
nihilo from the contemporary ethers. I certainly read and  admire poets who are 
trying to do something new. But from a philosophical  standpoint I wonder about 
the why it's deemed necessarily an  'honorific' to name oneself 'innovative' 
and 'innovator'. Smacks a  little bit of an Enlightenment world view, and 
perversely Western European. The  value of a tradition and culture too easily 
discounted and  dismissed. 
 
Here's a question for you, who would Silliman, Bernstein, Watten,  Hejinian, 
et al, identify as the failed and pathetically undeveloped, the  unrealized 
experimental or non-traditional poets among their own from  prior  times or 
during their own period? Certainly there must  be 'innovapoets' that could 
criticized just on the basis of taste. And  surely there must be poorly-executed & 
failed avant garde practice in  their midst or recognized retrospectively? I 
think during any period the  mainstream recognizes it contains much silt and 
sludge. The smaller otherstream  can't be running all crisp and clear, can it? So, 
my second quarrel is that the  avant garde often lack self-reflection and 
self-criticism. As long as they  can be against the old ways, the norms, then 
that seems to be enough for them.  I'd like to see a little more self-questioning 
of motives and modes. I think in  some ways the School of Q is more 
self-critical and less self-satisfied with its  practice and its content.
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From bmarcacci at gmail.com  Tue Apr 17 09:35:46 2007
From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:35:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <c02.1380ee14.3356226c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C24A99D2.6BB3%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

*coughs*

-- 
Bob Marcacci

In the face of an obstacle which is impossible
to overcome, stubbornness is stupid.
 - Simone de Beauvoir



> From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:15:24 EDT
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
> 
> I'd like to see a little more self-questioning of motives and modes. I think
> in some ways the School of Q is more self-critical and less self-satisfied
> with its practice and its content.
> Finnegan




From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 14:13:17 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:13:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer
In-Reply-To: <1418.1176760896@opus40.org>
References: <1418.1176760896@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <8C94F3334F2D473-B44-81B@webmail-me09.sysops.aol.com>

I agree this is not a very good poem...obvious in the race/color connection. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme scheme but there is a lot of rhyme going on, and most it is probably getting in the way of making the description more well rendered. It's from her first book...maybe she got better later.
Finnegan
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org
To: opus40-01 at opus40.org; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 6:01 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer


2007 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry to Native Guard by Natasha Trethewey.
 
Here's one from her first collection, Domestic Work.
Flounder 

 
Here, she said, put this on your head. 


She handed me a hat. 


you 'bout as white as your dad, 


and you gone stay like that. 


Aunt Sugar rolled her nylons down 


around each bony ankle, 


and I rolled down my white knee socks 


letting my thin legs dangle, 


circling them just above water 


and silver backs of minnows 


flitting here then there between 


the sun spots and the shadows. 


This is how you hold the pole


to cast the line out straight. 


Now put that worm on your hook, 


throw it out and wait. 


She sat spitting tobacco juice 


into a coffee cup. 


Hunkered down when she felt the bite, 


jerked the pole straight up 


reeling and tugging hard at the fish 


that wriggled and tried to fight back. 


A flounder, she said, and you can tell 


'cause one of its sides is black. 


The other is white, she said. 


It landed with a thump. 


I stood there watching that fish flip-flop, 


switch sides with every jump.



= 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Apr 17 14:20:34 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:20:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pulitzer
In-Reply-To: <8C94F3334F2D473-B44-81B@webmail-me09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <C24A7A22.F7E6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's a poem from the Pulitzer winning book, along with an audio file of NT
reading it.

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19072




On 4/17/07 1:13 PM, "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> I agree this is not a very good poem...obvious in the race/color connection.
> There doesn't seem to be a rhyme scheme but there is a lot of rhyme going on,
> and most it is probably getting in the way of making the description more well
> rendered. It's from her first book...maybe she got better later.
> Finnegan
>  
>  


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Apr 17 14:27:37 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:27:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tretheweys
Message-ID: <C24A7BC9.F7E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I wonder how many know that Natasha Trethewey's father is also a poet?  Eric
Trethewey's the author of a number of good books, my favorite being *Evening
Knowledge*, from Cleveland State.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 15:15:54 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:15:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pulitzer
In-Reply-To: <C24A7A22.F7E6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C94F3BF42A2C9B-B10-930B@WEBMAIL-RD11.sysops.aol.com>

Better, tho a big title for a piece that really doesn't get much beyond the saw, 
'Whereever you go, there you are'. One nice image, "the pier at Gulfport where / 
riggings of shrimp boats are loose stitches / in a sky threatening rain," but 
does that a poem make?
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pulitzer


Here's a poem from the Pulitzer winning book, along with an audio file of NT reading it.

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19072




On 4/17/07 1:13 PM, "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:


I agree this is not a very good poem...obvious in the race/color connection. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme scheme but there is a lot of rhyme going on, and most it is probably getting in the way of making the description more well rendered. It's from her first book...maybe she got better later.
Finnegan
 
 



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 15:42:05 2007
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:42:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tretheweys
Message-ID: <c00.14177263.33567d0d@aol.com>

I've always thought Eric Trethewey was a poet who was, for whatever reason,  
sorely overlooked.
 
 



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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 16:35:14 2007
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] failed avant-garde monuments
In-Reply-To: <200704171600.l3HG06US013860@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <8786.8022.qm@web35504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


"And  surely there must be 
poorly-executed & 
failed avant garde practice in  their midst or
recognized 
retrospectively?"

I nominate the Wasteland. Booooooring. Next to how I
feel about the Wasteland, I just *love* Robert Frost.

I agree, James: many of the poets I like are the ones
engaged in a big conversation (which obviously would
include Pound and Eliot, tho I'm not a fan), whatever
their status as "innovators". The question is, though:
which poets do contemporary poets talk to? In my
experience, the same ones over and over and over again
(Pound and Eliot, culprits once again -- but also
Stevens, Frost, Stein and a very few others. In
France, it's the Rimbaud/Mallarme/Baudelaire
triumvirate, almost exclusively it seems, bleeccch).
Personally, I like to talk to poets a lot of
contemporaries don't seem to think about much: Wyatt,
Charles d'Orleans, Skelton, Rutebeuf (lots of Medieval
stuff, absolutely). Tradition isn't monolithic. 
There's so much to choose from. I think people tend to
stick to chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, even when
they say otherwise. All that stuff about critiquing
the canon's always just been talk, anyhow.
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr 17 16:53:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:53:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia 
References: <002301c7804e$4dc02170$ceaf3452@ANNY><8C94E7C6FB5720C-1DF4-74A4@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>
	<007401c78065$a2384f40$1da93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002401c78132$6e1ed210$e2e03652@ANNY>

>From the WOM-PO list

Lucinda Roy has an op-ed in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/opinion/17roy.html
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Apr 17 18:55:06 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:55:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetry Issue Of The New Criterion
References: C24A7BC9.F7E9%grahamd@ripon.edu
Message-ID: <007701c78143$88eb9180$15fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Can you get any more retrograde?  Articles on Frost, Bridges, E. A. Robinson 
and Kinsley Amis.  Also one by the world's worst prominent critic of poetry, 
John Simon, on some anthology of twentieth-century German poetry that I 
haven't read.  I have no problem with books' being written on 
long-well-known poets, but do we really need substantial reviews of such 
books in the few magazines anybody much reads that review poetry?  Should 
such magazines try to expose their readers at least sometimes to poets (and, 
forgive me, even poetries) that might be new to them?

--Bob G. 




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 19:06:26 2007
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:06:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetry Issue Of The New Criterion
Message-ID: <cfa.e108534.3356acf2@aol.com>

Given New Criterion's taste in poetry and the fact that their star reviewer  
is William Logan, maybe not.
 



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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 19:07:31 2007
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:07:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Virginia 
Message-ID: <c50.11136429.3356ad33@aol.com>

This isn't the time or place for it, but Lucinda Roy is a fine poet whose  
book THE HUMMINGBIRDS won hte Eighth Mountain poetry prize some years back.  
She's also had a book of poems published in England and has published two novels  
as well.



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Apr 17 20:15:18 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:15:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
References: c02.1380ee14.3356226c@aol.com
Message-ID: <00aa01c7814e$a7464160$15fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

"School of Quietude"--my term for its opposite: "School of Socio-Political Self-Righteousness."  I LIKE the S of Q's name, though.  I feel I'm half in it, and half in the other: pro-lyricism so S of Q but pro-innovation so S of S-P S-R.  But the S of Q used to be pro-innovation.  Even if it never was or will be, I'd pick it before I'd pick the S of S-P S-R, because literature is more important by a lot to me than social justice, even by my definition of the latter.
  Bob,
  Your moniker for the opposite is quite a mouthful.
  You usually have a catchier rubric for your groupings.

  Weird, James, I didn't think so.  But I always aim to be as fully and accurately descriptive as I can with my names.  Catchiness is secondary.

  I like that Poe was the first to use the term School of Quietude. Many of 'the innovative' are probably not claiming Poe as one of their direct ancestor or influence. Seems like some innovators seem to think they've sprung ex nihilo from the contemporary ethers.

  Some do, but I think many visual poets will acknowledge Herbert as a forebear, and Apollinaire, for sure.  The language poets almost all recognize Stein as the Mom.

  I certainly read and admire poets who are trying to do something new. But from a philosophical standpoint I wonder about the why it's deemed necessarily an 'honorific' to name oneself 'innovative' and 'innovator'. Smacks a little bit of an Enlightenment world view, and perversely Western European. The value of a tradition and culture too easily discounted and dismissed. 

  The problem is the either/or attitude of too many artistic innovators.  This is partly due to the either/or attitude of the many in the establishment opposing them, but maybe also due to its being extremely hard to master a tradition AND invent significant ways of enlarging it.  But I'll never understand why traditionalists refuse to accept that the best thing any poet can do is significantly enlarge a tradition with some innovation.  What's the point of having nothing but Shakespeares for the next millennium?  I would add that great innovators are much more rare than great repeaters of known poetries (who are definitely of significant value), so worthy of honoring.  Even though there are a lot of pseudo-innovators, makers of trivial newnesses and inventive botchers--just as there are a lot of mediocre or worse followers of tradition.

  Here's a question for you, who would Silliman, Bernstein, Watten, Hejinian, et al, identify as the failed and pathetically undeveloped, the unrealized experimental or non-traditional poets among their own from prior  times or during their own period? Certainly there must be 'innovapoets' that could criticized just on the basis of taste. And surely there must be poorly-executed & failed avant garde practice in their midst or recognized retrospectively?

  I think it a bit unfair to expect a strugglingly marginal group of artists to be too negative about any of its members.  I certainly think the language poets should start being more so, now that they have representatives in the Academy of American Poets, and seem in many other ways to be non-marginal.

  Those of us in visual poetry do criticize the work of various visual poets.  I'm notorious for picking on Johanna Drucker, for instance.  And for constantly challenging even good friends to explain why certain of their works are visual poetry rather than what I call illumagery (visual art).  I also admit semi-frequently in my writings about visual and related poetry that I can't understand some work--and that it may be the fault of the work's creator rather than mine, although I try to make it clear that I'm never positive of that . . . well, almost never.

  I think during any period the mainstream recognizes it contains much silt and sludge. The smaller otherstream can't be running all crisp and clear, can it? So, my second quarrel is that the avant garde often lack self-reflection and self-criticism. As long as they can be against the old ways, the norms, then that seems to be enough for them. I'd like to see a little more self-questioning of motives and modes. I think in some ways the School of Q is more self-critical and less self-satisfied with its practice and its content.

  Doesn't seem that way to me.  But, again, they can afford to be self-critical.  Another reason just occurred to me: since even our best artists are ignored by the mass media, our worst never get critical backing enough to make them worth attacking.  But a good number of knownstream poets do.  The latest Pulitzer poet, for example.

  --Bob
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 20:46:18 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:46:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SoQ v you know who
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c7814e$a7464160$15fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: c02.1380ee14.3356226c@aol.com
	<00aa01c7814e$a7464160$15fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8C94F6A1C41D728-1BF4-B1C2@mblk-d23.sysops.aol.com>

Perhaps...I can understand some closing of ranks if you feel attacked, or huddling together if you feel neglected. But it might be more about spending so much time and energy defining themselves as 'nonthis' and 'nonthat', that the members of the group become complacent and self-congratulatory, critical only of the tradition and its adherents. Finnegan
I think it a bit unfair to expect a strugglingly marginal group of artists to be too negative about any of its members.  I certainly think the language poets should start being more so, now that they have representatives in the Academy of American Poets, and seem in many other ways to be non-marginal.
 
 
 
 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Apr 17 23:00:54 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:00:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetry Issue Of The New Criterion
References: cfa.e108534.3356acf2@aol.com
Message-ID: <00d801c78165$c9c4daf0$15fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Given New Criterion's taste in poetry and the fact that their star reviewer is William Logan, maybe not.

  But Logan generally reviews poetry by living authors.  And not exclusively formalist verse.  I didn't expect them to review my kind of poetry, but I expected them to review at least one post-Edwardian poet (in style and technique, not in chronology).

  --Bob 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 13:33:36 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:33:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
In-Reply-To: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
Message-ID: <8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
To: JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQB0DXKYc0Wa0zoN0E6 


 

 Mark Strand was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize in poetry for his book BLIZZARD OF ONE. The title poem of his most recent volume, MAN AND CAMEL, appears below and can be heard, read by the poet, in today's audio clip. "Fire," another poem from the collection, is featured on the downloadable broadside below. 





 Man and Camel 
On the eve of my fortieth birthday
I sat on the porch having a smoke
when out of the blue a man and a camel
happened by. Neither uttered a sound
at first, but as they drifted up the street
and out of town the two of them began to sing.
Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
the words were indistinct and the tune
too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
they went and as they went their voices
rose as one above the sifting sound
of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
Was this the night that I had waited for
so long? I wanted to believe it was,
but just as they were vanishing, the man
and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
back to town. They stood before my porch,
staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
"You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
 






KEEP CLICKING:


TODAY'S AUDIO CLIP:
 Listen to a recording of Mark Strand reading "Man and Camel." 

 About MAN AND CAMEL

Download a free broadside of Mark Strand's "Fire"

About Mark Strand

PLUS:

ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

 Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD

 Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES

Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 



     










Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
 
 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Apr 18 13:50:40 2007
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:50:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
In-Reply-To: <8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2730174D-F31C-4D3E-ACC3-6DF05A7183C7@earthlink.net>

I'd walk a mile for a Camel. For a Man and Camel--
maybe two. For a man and camel singing . . . well,
maybe I'd walk forever.

Hal

"The trouble with words is that you never know
  whose mouths they've been in."
			--Dennis Potter

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Apr 18, 2007, at 12:33 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> To: JforJames at aol.com
> Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
> Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
>
> If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http:// 
> info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQB0DXKYc0Wa0zoN0E6
> 	
>
>
> 	
>
> 	Mark Strand was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize in poetry for his  
> book BLIZZARD OF ONE. The title poem of his most recent volume, MAN  
> AND CAMEL, appears below and can be heard, read by the poet, in  
> today's audio clip. "Fire," another poem from the collection, is  
> featured on the downloadable broadside below.
>
>
>
> 	Man and Camel
> On the eve of my fortieth birthday
> I sat on the porch having a smoke
> when out of the blue a man and a camel
> happened by. Neither uttered a sound
> at first, but as they drifted up the street
> and out of town the two of them began to sing.
> Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
> the words were indistinct and the tune
> too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
> they went and as they went their voices
> rose as one above the sifting sound
> of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
> its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
> an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
> Was this the night that I had waited for
> so long? I wanted to believe it was,
> but just as they were vanishing, the man
> and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
> back to town. They stood before my porch,
> staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
> "You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
>
>
>
>
> KEEP CLICKING:
>
>
> TODAY'S AUDIO CLIP:
> Listen to a recording of Mark Strand reading "Man and Camel."
>
> About MAN AND CAMEL
>
> Download a free broadside of Mark Strand's "Fire"
>
> About Mark Strand
>
> PLUS:
>
> ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION
>
> Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD
>
> Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES
>
> Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf  
> Poem-a-Day archive.
>
>
>
>    	
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand.  
> Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random  
> House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be  
> reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the  
> publisher.
>
> We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to  
> knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com
>
> You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's  
> Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to  
> unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this  
> poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to  
> sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
>
>
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's  
> free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 14:07:21 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:07:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more evidence of the insidious infiltration of
	alternative poetries
Message-ID: <8C94FFB8B4FDBBB-F1C-2AAA@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>

Don't know if anyone else noticed, but 
Academy of American Poets (the people who brought you the dreaded Nat'l Poetry Month)
http://www.poets.org/
have deigned to give Rae Armantrout a featured with a Spotlight Audio clip on their front page.
 
I did notice they forgot to put trademark sign behind 'Language poetry' in her bio. So that opens the door for Gerald Stern and Louis Gluck to call themselves Language poets. You can't be too careful about brand names these days. That sucking sound, is mainstream using its Death Star of website to drain the energy from another once proudly independent movement. 
 
As a nice complement, the namer of SoQ, Edgar Allan Poe, is the Spotlight Poet. (Yes, he's I'm afraid he's dead, Bob, but not so long dead that he'd be called Featured Bard or Scop.) 
 
 
Finnegan
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Apr 18 15:07:04 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:07:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html
In-Reply-To: <C24A7A22.F7E6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

A student told me that Cho Seung-Hui's creative writing is on the net (link
below).  I'm not trying to be morbid by looking at this, but just trying to
see if I could have seen signs of the level of his disturbance. I don't
think I could have. Here's a short and twisted little play he wrote. The
actions are at times inexplicable (when not exaggerated), the actions are
violent, the relationships are twisted, and the name (McBeef) is disturbing,
but I cannot honestly say I would have notified the authorities if I would
have seen this in an early creative writing class (1st or 2nd undergraduate
level).

 

http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.h
tml

 

Perhaps an inappropriate topic. Perhaps an important one, or one that is
important in terms of a larger issue (trying to pick out this type of
disturbance or not being able to).

 

If Nikki Giovanni felt he was significantly disturbed on the basis of this,
I applaud her human intelligence as well as on her poetry.

 

 

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From skip at louisiana.edu  Wed Apr 18 15:53:19 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:53:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry]
	http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html
In-Reply-To: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <000501c781f3$3cc79fa0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I have since found a site with both plays on it:

 

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

 

The second one appears to be more obviously disturbed and the fact that both
point to child molestation by an older male might be indicative of a
problem, but still I don't know if I'd be certain enough, even on the basis
of both, to refer him to university officials. Maybe these were not the
items disturbing Giovanni and Roy. Or maybe they had much more as well as
his personal behavior. All I can say is that for me I wouldn't have
initiated action by outside authorities on the basis of these. 

 

In fact the first half of the first play, _Richard McBeef_ sounds like a
punk _Hamlet_.

 

 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Apr 18 17:23:18 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:23:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more evidence of the insidious infiltration
	ofalternative poetries
References: 8C94FFB8B4FDBBB-F1C-2AAA@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com
Message-ID: <003701c781ff$cad52b80$70fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Don't know if anyone else noticed, but 
  Academy of American Poets (the people who brought you the dreaded Nat'l Poetry Month)
  http://www.poets.org/
  have deigned to give Rae Armantrout a featured with a Spotlight Audio clip on their front page.

  The politics behind all this kind of thing is, I'm sure, very complicated.  But I'm sure Bernstein will eventually be a member of the academy, which will be interesting.

  I did notice they forgot to put trademark sign behind 'Language poetry' in her bio. So that opens the door for Gerald Stern and Louis Gluck to call themselves Language poets. You can't be too careful about brand names these days. That sucking sound, is mainstream using its Death Star of website to drain the energy from another once proudly independent movement. 

  Nah.  A movement reaches a peak, then starts losing energy--and is slowly accepted by the mainstream.

  As a nice complement, the namer of SoQ, Edgar Allan Poe, is the Spotlight Poet. (Yes, he's I'm afraid he's dead, Bob, but not so long dead that he'd be called Featured Bard or Scop.) 

  I like Eddie.  He sure wasn't a favorite of the equivalent of the Academy of American Poets of his time.

  I think I am not bothered by the Academy's "commodification" of Iowa plaintext poetry--and, faintly, language poetry.  My gripe is that it ignores my kind of poetry.  It's not commodification that is evil for me, but the narrowness of the commodification the Academy, and the rest of the Poetry Establishment practice.

  --Bob G.

  Finnegan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 18 16:27:33 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:27:33 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry]
	http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html
References: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <001d01c781f7$ffbc3c60$44ab3252@ANNY>

Re: PulitzerI had read it before, as a matter of fact I have to write about it, and I thank Skip Fox for his reading. There is as a matter of fact something disturbing in this writing. What is it? 

The piece is quite harsh, not for the violence to which unluckily we are accustomed, but for the particular kind of violence and for the way it is expressed. The 13 year old son, John, is mean. His telling heavy lies to his mother, Sue, against her new husband, Richard McBeef, is triggered not by the emotional loss of his father, nor by an attachment to his mother, but by the mere fact that his step-father does not earn enough! Besides this, the story is not well written. 

 

If I remember right, I read on The New York Times that at the beginning of the writing class he was taking, instead of writing his name he put a question mark. We have to add to this fact that he did not answer questions, never spoke with anybody. The same students were quite careful in reviewing his work because they were scared.



I think that Nikki Giovanni was therefore entitled to be significantly disturbed.  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Skip Fox 
  To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:07 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html


  A student told me that Cho Seung-Hui's creative writing is on the net (link below).  I'm not trying to be morbid by looking at this, but just trying to see if I could have seen signs of the level of his disturbance. I don't think I could have. Here's a short and twisted little play he wrote. The actions are at times inexplicable (when not exaggerated), the actions are violent, the relationships are twisted, and the name (McBeef) is disturbing, but I cannot honestly say I would have notified the authorities if I would have seen this in an early creative writing class (1st or 2nd undergraduate level).



  http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html



  Perhaps an inappropriate topic. Perhaps an important one, or one that is important in terms of a larger issue (trying to pick out this type of disturbance or not being able to).



  If Nikki Giovanni felt he was significantly disturbed on the basis of this, I applaud her human intelligence as well as on her poetry.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 18 16:43:20 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:43:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <005701c781fa$34d7bf30$44ab3252@ANNY>

A chilling poem preceded by a beautiful poem in one poem
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:33 PM


  -----Original Message-----
  From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
  To: JforJames at aol.com
  Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
  Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


      If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQB0DXKYc0Wa0zoN0E6   
       
       
         
       
          Mark Strand was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize in poetry for his book BLIZZARD OF ONE. The title poem of his most recent volume, MAN AND CAMEL, appears below and can be heard, read by the poet, in today's audio clip. "Fire," another poem from the collection, is featured on the downloadable broadside below. 





                Man and Camel 
              On the eve of my fortieth birthday
              I sat on the porch having a smoke
              when out of the blue a man and a camel
              happened by. Neither uttered a sound
              at first, but as they drifted up the street
              and out of town the two of them began to sing.
              Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
              the words were indistinct and the tune
              too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
              they went and as they went their voices
              rose as one above the sifting sound
              of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
              its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
              an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
              Was this the night that I had waited for
              so long? I wanted to believe it was,
              but just as they were vanishing, the man
              and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
              back to town. They stood before my porch,
              staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
              "You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
               






              KEEP CLICKING:


              TODAY'S AUDIO CLIP:
               Listen to a recording of Mark Strand reading "Man and Camel." 

               About MAN AND CAMEL

              Download a free broadside of Mark Strand's "Fire"

              About Mark Strand

              PLUS:

              ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

               Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD

               Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES

              Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 



                   


             







        Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

        We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

        You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
         
   
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 18 17:42:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:42:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry]http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html
References: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<001d01c781f7$ffbc3c60$44ab3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <008401c78202$84f3bca0$44ab3252@ANNY>

Re: PulitzerSent by Frank Jensen:


The Chicago Tribune reports that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech
shooter who killed 32 fellow students in a shooting rampage, was
taking antidepressant drugs. This is not the first time a school
shooting rampage has been linked to antidepressants. The infamous
Colombine High shootings took place almost exactly eight years ago,
and the shooters in that rampage were also -- you guessed it -- taking
antidepressant drugs.

What is it about antidepressant drugs that provokes young men to pick
up pistols, rifles and shotguns, then violently assault their
classmates? Clearly, there's something wrong with the mind of anyone
who engages in such violent acts. Could the drugs be "imbalancing"
their minds, priming them for violence?

The answer is a very sobering, "Yes, they could be." As we reported in
a previous article on Paxil:

Researchers from Cardiff University in Britain and the Cochrane Centre
examined data on Paxil -- or its generic form, paroxetine -- from
GlaxoSmithKline, legal cases and emails from nearly 1,400 patients who
responded to a British TV program on antidepressants. The researchers
found that 60 out of 9,219 people taking Paxil -- 0.65 percent --
experienced a "hostility event," compared to 20 out of 6,455 patients
taking placebo, or 0.31 percent.

In that same article, published in September, 2006, I stated, "This
finding helps explain why school shootings are almost always conducted
by children who are taking antidepressants. We also know that SSRIs
cause children to disconnect from reality. When you combine that with
a propensity for violence, you create a dangerous recipe for school
shootings and other adolescent violence."

Sadly, that explanation rings true once again with the Virginia Tech
shooting. Wherever we see school violence, antidepressant drugs seem
to found at the scene of the crime. The correlation is not
coincidence. There is a causal link between the two.

The links between antidepressants and violence are well documented
A study published in the Public Library of Science Medicine (an open
source medical journal) explored these same links in detail. (See
Antidepressants and Violence: Problems at the Interface of Medicine
and Law, by David Healy, Andrew Herxheimer, David B. Menkes)
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0030372

The authors note that "Some regulators, such as the Canadian
regulators, have also referred to risks of treatment-induced
activation leading to both self-harm and harm to others" and the
"United States labels for all antidepressants as of August 2004 note
that 'anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability,
hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor
restlessness), hypomania, and mania have been reported in adult and
pediatric patients being treated with antidepressants for major
depressive disorder as well as for other indications, both psychiatric
and nonpsychiatric'".

In other words, the link between antidepressants and violence has been
known for years by the very people manufacturing, marketing or
prescribing the drugs. As the author of the study mentioned above
concluded, "The new issues highlighted by these cases need urgent
examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries
where antidepressants are widely used."

That was last year, well before this latest shooting. The warning
signs were there, and they've been visible for a long time. Medical
authorities can hardly say they are "shocked" by this violent
behavior. After all, the same pattern of violence among antidepressant
takers has been observed, documented and published in numerous
previous cases.

How to stop the violence
Following this recent episode of violence, some Americans are renewing
calls for gun control. But I ask, isn't it time we looked at
antidepressants control? Why do we continue to drug up young people in
this country with psychotropic drugs that we know are closely
associated with violent outbursts?

Giving young men antidepressant drugs is, in my opinion, just like
building silent timebombs and waiting around for one to suddenly go
off. Chemically assaulting these young, troubled brains with powerful
drugs -- while denying them real mental health solutions based on
nutrition -- is the bread and butter of modern psychiatry, an industry
that in my opinion has sold its soul to drug companies and now serves
primarily as a glorified system of legalized drug dealers that preys
upon children and teenagers.

That doesn't mean the doctor or psychiatrist who prescribed the
antidepressants is directly responsible for the violence committed by
Cho Seung Hui, but they may have very well played a key role in
destabilizing the mind of a young man who was on the verge of
insanity. You don't give another shot of whisky to a drunk driver, and
you shouldn't prescribe antidepressants to troubled young men.
Especially when there are weapons lying around.

How many more Americans will be killed by pharmaceuticals?
FDA-approved prescription drugs kill 100,000 Americans each year.
Sadly, these 32 dead students at Virginia Tech now join the list of
those killed by pharmaecutical side effects. And yet nobody in the
mainstream media seems to be reporting about the drugs.

Don't you find it curious that when 100,000+ Americans are killed in
their homes and beds each year, dying from heart attacks and strokes
caused by pharmaceuticals, there's virtually no news coverage, but
when mind-altering drugs cause a student to pick up guns and blow away
32 classmates, it's suddenly front-page news everywhere? The reason is
because there's violence involved, and violence gets ratings for news
organizations.

Another interesting point in all this is that a Korean diplomat
contacted the Bush Administration to offer his condolences. Does this
seem a bit strange to anyone else? The student was an American
citizen, and he had lived in America for many years. In fact, he got
put on antidepressant drugs in America, following the same fraudulent
system of medicine that is uniquely American in the degree of harm it
causes people. If anybody should be picking up the phone and
apologizing, it's the U.S. diplomats who should be apologizing to the
world for exporting death, disease and western medicine. Drug
companies should be apologizing to the families of those who died, as
well as to the family of the shooter. And the doctor or psychiatrist
who prescribed these drugs to Cho Seung should be apologizing to
everybody. Where is the apology from the drug companies who
manufacture these chemicals that kill?

The question I'm asking is: Who's really at fault here? Sure, it's
primarily the person who pulled the trigger. But it's also the
companies and FDA regulators who allowed dangerous, violence-inducing
chemicals to be prescribed to the person who pulled the trigger.
"Chemically-induced violence," I call it. And antidepressant drugs
make it so much easier for the shooter because they make people feel
dissociated from reality. One of the Colombine shooters said it was
all, "like a video game."

Or, as described in shocking detail in the PLoS Medicine study
mentioned above, a 12 year old boy was being drugged with
antidepressants when the following took place. As reported: 

The independent forensic report on the case notes CP as saying that
that night: "something told me to shoot them". He had initially
reported this to be hallucinations and then said he thought it was his
own thoughts. When asked to specifically describe what the experience
was like, he said it was "like echoes in my head saying 'kill, kill',
like someone shouting in a cave". According to the forensic report,
"He reported this began happening after he went to bed.He reported he
had never considered harming his grandparents before and this was
unlike anything he had previously experienced. He reported that the
voices were coming from inside his head and they bothered him so much
that he got up. He reported that the voices continued until he killed
his grandparents. He reported that he couldn't control himself and
reported the echoes stopped after he shot his grandparents. He set
fire to the house but could not explain these actions saying the
thoughts just popped up". He then took a vehicle and began driving but
reported that he had no idea where he was going and that it all felt
like a dream. He recalled asking the police about his grandparents
after he was picked up because he was not sure if it had really
happened or not.

My heart goes out to those who died... ALL of them
Yes, I mourn the dead. Do not mistake my skeptical thinking with a
lack of compassion for those individuals and families traumatized by
this event. But unlike most tabloid reporters, I don't end my story
with the 32 dead at Virginia Tech. I mourn the 100,000 Americans
killed every year by FDA-approved prescription drugs, and the millions
more killed all around the world by pharmaceuticals, regardless of
whether they were killed in a headline-grabbing act of extreme
violence. And unless we restrict the use of antidepressant drugs and
find a way to help young men achieve genuine mental health through
nutrition, sunlight, and avoidance of toxic chemicals, mark my words:
We will see more antidepressant-induced violence in America.

The shootings will not stop until the pills are banned.

You can bank on it. The next attempted shooting is likely only days or
weeks away.

If we want to end this violence, we must end the chemical warfare
being waged against the minds of our young men and children by the
drug companies.

Study summary:
Here's the summary of the study, mentioned above, published in PLoS
Medicine:

Recent regulatory warnings about adverse behavioural effects of
antidepressants in susceptible individuals have raised the profile of
these issues with clinicians, patients, and the public. We review
available clinical trial data on paroxetine and sertraline and
pharmacovigilance studies of paroxetine and fluoxetine, and outline a
series of medico-legal cases involving antidepressants and violence.

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links
between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined
returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from
different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have
considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

The association of antidepressant treatment with aggression and
violence reported here calls for more clinical trial and
epidemiological data to be made available and for good clinical
descriptions of the adverse outcomes of treatment. Legal systems are
likely to continue to be faced with cases of violence associated with
the use of psychotropic drugs, and it may fall to the courts to demand
access to currently unavailable data. The problem is international and
calls for an international response.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Skip Fox 
    To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
    Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:07 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html


    A student told me that Cho Seung-Hui's creative writing is on the net (link below).  I'm not trying to be morbid by looking at this, but just trying to see if I could have seen signs of the level of his disturbance. I don't think I could have. Here's a short and twisted little play he wrote. The actions are at times inexplicable (when not exaggerated), the actions are violent, the relationships are twisted, and the name (McBeef) is disturbing, but I cannot honestly say I would have notified the authorities if I would have seen this in an early creative writing class (1st or 2nd undergraduate level).



    http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1891-Cho-Seung-Huis-creative-writing.html



    Perhaps an inappropriate topic. Perhaps an important one, or one that is important in terms of a larger issue (trying to pick out this type of disturbance or not being able to).



    If Nikki Giovanni felt he was significantly disturbed on the basis of this, I applaud her human intelligence as well as on her poetry.





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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 18 17:51:18 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:51:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <002301c78203$b382e040$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

Do you suppose he was smoking a Camel?

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:33 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


  -----Original Message-----
  From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
  To: JforJames at aol.com
  Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
  Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


      If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQB0DXKYc0Wa0zoN0E6   
       
       
         
       
          Mark Strand was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize in poetry for his book BLIZZARD OF ONE. The title poem of his most recent volume, MAN AND CAMEL, appears below and can be heard, read by the poet, in today's audio clip. "Fire," another poem from the collection, is featured on the downloadable broadside below. 





                Man and Camel 
              On the eve of my fortieth birthday
              I sat on the porch having a smoke
              when out of the blue a man and a camel
              happened by. Neither uttered a sound
              at first, but as they drifted up the street
              and out of town the two of them began to sing.
              Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
              the words were indistinct and the tune
              too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
              they went and as they went their voices
              rose as one above the sifting sound
              of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
              its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
              an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
              Was this the night that I had waited for
              so long? I wanted to believe it was,
              but just as they were vanishing, the man
              and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
              back to town. They stood before my porch,
              staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
              "You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
               






              KEEP CLICKING:


              TODAY'S AUDIO CLIP:
               Listen to a recording of Mark Strand reading "Man and Camel." 

               About MAN AND CAMEL

              Download a free broadside of Mark Strand's "Fire"

              About Mark Strand

              PLUS:

              ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

               Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD

               Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES

              Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 



                   


             







        Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

        We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

        You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
         
   

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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 18 17:52:14 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:52:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com><8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
	<2730174D-F31C-4D3E-ACC3-6DF05A7183C7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003101c78203$d7416b50$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I wish I'd thought of that, instead my mundane question...

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


  I'd walk a mile for a Camel. For a Man and Camel--
  maybe two. For a man and camel singing . . . well,
  maybe I'd walk forever.


  Hal


  "The trouble with words is that you never know
   whose mouths they've been in."
  --Dennis Potter


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org 


  On Apr 18, 2007, at 12:33 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:


    -----Original Message-----
    From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
    To: JforJames at aol.com
    Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
    Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


    If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQB0DXKYc0Wa0zoN0E6 
         
         
         
           
         
            Mark Strand was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize in poetry for his book BLIZZARD OF ONE. The title poem of his most recent volume, MAN AND CAMEL, appears below and can be heard, read by the poet, in today's audio clip. "Fire," another poem from the collection, is featured on the downloadable broadside below. 





                  Man and Camel 
                On the eve of my fortieth birthday
                I sat on the porch having a smoke
                when out of the blue a man and a camel
                happened by. Neither uttered a sound
                at first, but as they drifted up the street
                and out of town the two of them began to sing.
                Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
                the words were indistinct and the tune
                too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
                they went and as they went their voices
                rose as one above the sifting sound
                of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
                its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
                an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
                Was this the night that I had waited for
                so long? I wanted to believe it was,
                but just as they were vanishing, the man
                and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
                back to town. They stood before my porch,
                staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
                "You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
                 






                KEEP CLICKING:


                TODAY'S AUDIO CLIP:
                 Listen to a recording of Mark Strand reading "Man and Camel." 

                 About MAN AND CAMEL

                Download a free broadside of Mark Strand's "Fire"

                About Mark Strand

                PLUS:

                ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

                 Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD

                 Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES

                Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 



                     


               







          Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

          We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

          You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
           
     

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 17:59:55 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:59:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative Writing?
In-Reply-To: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <8C9501C08BB2C4A-C50-3F92@webmail-md10.sysops.aol.com>

It will be interesting to see if the risk management committees of colleges and universities don't call for Creative Writing teachers to get training on how to spot potentially dangerous students. Not a enviable position to be in, trying to figure out where the line is between the merely fictive (that one might no care for or finds objectionable) and a situation of real potential violence being manifest in the writings. I'm sure we'll see some false alarms and some overzealous lit policing as fallout from this tragedy.
 
I don't teach so it won't be my worry. The tiny thing I can relate this burden to, is that having been the host of open mikes over the years, I always worried there would be a blatantly racist or abusive poet holding forth and causing me to have to step to the podium to physically escort the offending party from the premises. (Fortunately my only headache was when I'd have to put the 'verbal hook' on someone who couldn't tell the difference between three pages of poetry and second section of his epic work in progress). But there was always that nighmare scenario of a 250 pound strapping Skinhead poet who'd just stomp me into a bloody pulp if I tried to grab the mike away from him.
Finnegan
 
-----Original Message-----
From: skip at louisiana.edu 
  I?m not trying to be morbid by looking at this, but just trying to see if I could have seen signs of the level of his disturbance. I don?t think I could have. Here?s a short and twisted little play he wrote. The actions are at times inexplicable (when not exaggerated), the actions are violent, the relationships are twisted, and the name (McBeef) is disturbing, but I cannot honestly say I would have notified the authorities if I would have seen this in an early creative writing class (1st or 2nd undergraduate level).
 
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 10:40:12 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:40:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jensen's dim view of psycho-pharmaceuticals
In-Reply-To: <008401c78202$84f3bca0$44ab3252@ANNY>
References: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<001d01c781f7$ffbc3c60$44ab3252@ANNY>
	<008401c78202$84f3bca0$44ab3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <8C950A7C5ACE971-16C0-9C7D@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>

Frank Jensen--
My heart goes out to those who died... ALL of them
Yes, I mourn the dead. Do not mistake my skeptical thinking with a
lack of compassion for those individuals and families traumatized by
this event. But unlike most tabloid reporters, I don't end my story
with the 32 dead at Virginia Tech. I mourn the 100,000 Americans
killed every year by FDA-approved prescription drugs, and the millions
more killed all around the world by pharmaceuticals, regardless of
whether they were killed in a headline-grabbing act of extreme
violence. And unless we restrict the use of antidepressant drugs and
find a way to help young men achieve genuine mental health through
nutrition, sunlight, and avoidance of toxic chemicals, mark my words:
We will see more antidepressant-induced violence in America.

The shootings will not stop until the pills are banned.

--
Jensen's painting a one-sided view of pscho-pharmceuticals.
I'm sure he could cite reams of case studies showing that millions of people 
haven't committed suicide (or done worse) due to getting the right perscription 
drugs. I'd bet it's 100,000 per DAY worldwide, saved by the right meds.

We have bi-polar issues in my family and having seen people off their
meds, I don't know that I'd recommend it as a course of care. And Jensen
fails to account for all the situations in human history (pre-psychopharmaceutical)
where people who were clearly in deranged states created deadly mayhem.
It's not a human phenomenon that started with the advent of Prozac.
 
First, I think I would focus my concern on the ability to purchase firearms without
undergoing a psychological evaluation. I also wonder if fair to ask whether
most people outside of law enforcement & certified gun enthusiasts need 
9mm automatics? A common argument for handguns is self protection; but
it seems fair to surmise that most people don't need rapid-fire, easy reloadable 
handguns for self-protection. The death toll probably would have been less had 
the troubled young man been contrained to purchase a 6-shot revolver of some sort.
 
Second, the privacy barriers that colleges face, keeping family 
unaware of  'adult' relatives having troubles. Keeping valuable information 
about certain behaviors from those who might be most able to intervene
effectively and those with a familial interest in doing so.
 
Lastly, the general mess that is our health care system in this country
puts up barriers for getting psychiatric care and treatment in a timely and 
low-cost fashion. The expense, lack of inavailability along with paperwork requirements
are certainly keeping many people away from the help they desperately need.
I don't know this to be the case in this situation, but many people at an early
stage in their illness recognize they need to get help, but are either turned
away from care or they're ill-equipped to navigate the bureaucracy to get
the care they need and want.
 
Finnegan
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
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From skip at louisiana.edu  Thu Apr 19 13:12:03 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:12:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative Writing?
In-Reply-To: <8C9501C08BB2C4A-C50-3F92@webmail-md10.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c782a5$df565420$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Here's the link to both plays:

 

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

 

I would hate having to look at a creative writing student as a person of
potential disturbance. I'm not suggesting that. Just asking a writer's
question: on the basis of these two plays alone, could you have foreseen his
possible level of problems?

 

Yesterday I said I couldn't have, but the plays entered my dreams or came
close to them last night and I could feel the wildness of the characters as
though they were presences. Thick, real, and very active. Boundless confused
energy of violence and hatred. I'm still not saying I could have told from
the writings the level of disturbance, and maybe the plays acted so
personally and energetically upon me because I already knew of Cho's
violence. But this is how they acted upon me and I can't say that I've had
that particular feeling (and seemed to include the possibility of many more)
before.

 

A writer's question, only.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:00 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative Writing?

 

It will be interesting to see if the risk management committees of colleges
and universities don't call for Creative Writing teachers to get training on
how to spot potentially dangerous students. Not a enviable position to be
in, trying to figure out where the line is between the merely fictive (that
one might no care for or finds objectionable) and a situation of real
potential violence being manifest in the writings. I'm sure we'll see some
false alarms and some overzealous lit policing as fallout from this tragedy.

 

I don't teach so it won't be my worry. The tiny thing I can relate this
burden to, is that having been the host of open mikes over the years, I
always worried there would be a blatantly racist or abusive poet holding
forth and causing me to have to step to the podium to physically escort the
offending party from the premises. (Fortunately my only headache was when
I'd have to put the 'verbal hook' on someone who couldn't tell the
difference between three pages of poetry and second section of his epic work
in progress). But there was always that nighmare scenario of a 250 pound
strapping Skinhead poet who'd just stomp me into a bloody pulp if I tried to
grab the mike away from him.
Finnegan

 
-----Original Message-----
From: skip at louisiana.edu 

  I'm not trying to be morbid by looking at this, but just trying to see if
I could have seen signs of the level of his disturbance. I don't think I
could have. Here's a short and twisted little play he wrote. The actions are
at times inexplicable (when not exaggerated), the actions are violent, the
relationships are twisted, and the name (McBeef) is disturbing, but I cannot
honestly say I would have notified the authorities if I would have seen this
in an early creative writing class (1st or 2nd undergraduate level).

 

_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <javascript:parent.ComposeTo(> 

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 13:53:31 2007
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jensen's dim view cont'd
In-Reply-To: <200704191600.l3JG07US000868@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <488282.88086.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well said, James. Hear, hear. Much more articulate
than I would have been, I would have been more likely
to just call Jensen a lot of names. 
Amicalement,
Alex

www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr 19 14:10:54 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:10:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman and Nikki Giovanni's reading
Message-ID: <006801c782ae$12d1acc0$eee03652@ANNY>

See Ron Silliman's blog on VA tech and listen to the recording of Nikki Giovanni's reading here:
 Ron Silliman's blog  
podcast of Nikki Giovanni's reading of her poem 

here on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vBuK7qCFsM&mode=related&search=


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr 19 14:23:17 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:23:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jensen's dim view of psycho-pharmaceuticals
References: <000001c781ec$c7923020$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>	<001d01c781f7$ffbc3c60$44ab3252@ANNY><008401c78202$84f3bca0$44ab3252@ANNY>
	<8C950A7C5ACE971-16C0-9C7D@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c782af$cd399860$eee03652@ANNY>

Sorry for this, I don't even know why I sent this in. I read so many mails yesterday that probably I was full up to the rim.

I do have a touchy spot with medicine in general, and I forget that it has been beneficial in many cases. 
  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:40 PM


  Frank Jensen--
  My heart goes out to those who died... ALL of them
  Yes, I mourn the dead. Do not mistake my skeptical thinking with a
  lack of compassion for those individuals and families traumatized by
  this event. But unlike most tabloid reporters, I don't end my story
  with the 32 dead at Virginia Tech. I mourn the 100,000 Americans
  killed every year by FDA-approved prescription drugs, and the millions
  more killed all around the world by pharmaceuticals, regardless of
  whether they were killed in a headline-grabbing act of extreme
  violence. And unless we restrict the use of antidepressant drugs and
  find a way to help young men achieve genuine mental health through
  nutrition, sunlight, and avoidance of toxic chemicals, mark my words:
  We will see more antidepressant-induced violence in America.

  The shootings will not stop until the pills are banned.

  --
  Jensen's painting a one-sided view of pscho-pharmceuticals.
  I'm sure he could cite reams of case studies showing that millions of people 
  haven't committed suicide (or done worse) due to getting the right perscription 
  drugs. I'd bet it's 100,000 per DAY worldwide, saved by the right meds.

  We have bi-polar issues in my family and having seen people off their
  meds, I don't know that I'd recommend it as a course of care. And Jensen
  fails to account for all the situations in human history (pre-psychopharmaceutical)
  where people who were clearly in deranged states created deadly mayhem.
  It's not a human phenomenon that started with the advent of Prozac.

  First, I think I would focus my concern on the ability to purchase firearms without
  undergoing a psychological evaluation. I also wonder if fair to ask whether
  most people outside of law enforcement & certified gun enthusiasts need 
  9mm automatics? A common argument for handguns is self protection; but
  it seems fair to surmise that most people don't need rapid-fire, easy reloadable 
  handguns for self-protection. The death toll probably would have been less had 
  the troubled young man been contrained to purchase a 6-shot revolver of some sort.

  Second, the privacy barriers that colleges face, keeping family 
  unaware of  'adult' relatives having troubles. Keeping valuable information 
  about certain behaviors from those who might be most able to intervene
  effectively and those with a familial interest in doing so.

  Lastly, the general mess that is our health care system in this country
  puts up barriers for getting psychiatric care and treatment in a timely and 
  low-cost fashion. The expense, lack of inavailability along with paperwork requirements
  are certainly keeping many people away from the help they desperately need.
  I don't know this to be the case in this situation, but many people at an early
  stage in their illness recognize they need to get help, but are either turned
  away from care or they're ill-equipped to navigate the bureaucracy to get
  the care they need and want.

  Finnegan



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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 16:31:12 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:31:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland 
Message-ID: <8C950D8CDFD3554-FEC-B454@WEBMAIL-RD05.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350687157
 
Thursday, April 12, 2007
An Elbow To the Ribs: Poet says he likes to shake folks up a bit, show reality

By Tim Clodfelter
JOURNAL REPORTER
 
Some poets might balk at the notion of explaining the meaning of their poems to an audience.
But not Tony Hoagland.
?I don?t mind that at all,? he said. ?This is a process of education as well as art.?
 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 20:16:15 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:16:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harshav words
Message-ID: <8C950F83EBA55F2-F00-C7BE@FWM-M18.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.fabula.org/actualites/article18356.php
 
B. Harshav, Explorations in Poetics

Benjamin Harshav
Explorations in Poetics
Stanford University Press, 2007
296 pp.
 
ISBN : 0804755167
 
This collection of essays, originally published at different times, presents a coherent, systematic, and comprehensive theory of the work of literature and its major aspects. The approach, which may be called "Constructive Poetics," does not assume that a work of literature is a text with fixed structures and meanings, but a text that invites the reader to evoke or project a network of interrelated constructs, complementary or contradictory as they may be. The work of literature is not just a narrative, as studies in narratology assume, but a text that projects a fictional world, or an Internal Field of Reference. Meanings in a text are presented through the evocation of "frames of reference" (scenes, characters, ideas, etc.). Language in literature is double-directed: it relates the Internal Field to External Fields and vice versa. The essays explore the problems of fictionality, presentation and representation, metaphor as interaction between several frames of reference, the theory of "Integrational Semantics" in literary and other texts, the meaning of sound patterns in poetry, and the question of "literariness." This theory and its specific aspects were developed by the author in Israel in the 1960s and 1970s and lay at the foundations of the Tel-Aviv School of Poetics. Revived now, it resonates with the current mood in literary criticism.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 20:49:55 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:49:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"
In-Reply-To: <8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Kilauea159361-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C94FF6D49CDC0B-F1C-2810@WEBMAIL-RA05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C950FCF2AACD22-F00-CA40@FWM-M18.sysops.aol.com>

This 'poem' is an excerpt...but I"m not sure what that means exactly
since I've not seen the book.
 
The "Man and Camel" poem strikes me as very much like the absurbist poems James Tate 
carries off, but Tate with more gusto. Strands is better a that "sur-" that barely attaches to the
"real". I know Strand has acknowledged Stevens as one  of his key poet...could it
be that Strand is turning the tables on the "Ideal Order..."?...
 
            It was her voice that made
The sky acutest at its vanishing.
She measured to the hour its solitude.
She was the single artificer of the world
In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea,
Whatever self it had, became the self
That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we,
As we beheld her striding there alone,
Knew that there never was a world for her
Except the one she sang and, singing, made. 
 
Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know,
Why, when the singing ended and we turned
Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights,
The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there,
As the night descended, tilting in the air,
Mastered the night and portioned out the sea,
Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles,
Arranging, deepening, enchanting night. 
 
Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon,
The maker's rage to order words of the sea,
Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred,
And of ourselves and of our origins,
In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds.
 
--
Finnegan
http://ursprache.blogspot.com
 
-----Original Message-----
From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
To: JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Mark Strand's "Man and Camel"


  
 

 

  Man and Camel
 
On the eve of my fortieth birthday
I sat on the porch having a smoke
when out of the blue a man and a camel
happened by. Neither uttered a sound
at first, but as they drifted up the street
and out of town the two of them began to sing.
Yet what they sang is still a mystery to me?
the words were indistinct and the tune
too ornamental to recall. Into the desert
they went and as they went their voices
rose as one above the sifting sound
of windblown sand. The wonder of their singing,
its elusive blend of man and camel, seemed
an ideal image for all uncommon couples.
Was this the night that I had waited for
so long? I wanted to believe it was,
but just as they were vanishing, the man
and camel ceased to sing, and galloped
back to town. They stood before my porch,
staring up at me with beady eyes, and said:
"You ruined it. You ruined it forever."
 








     







Excerpt from MAN AND CAMEL. Copyright ? 2006 by Mark Strand. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
 
 


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_______________________________________________
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 09:36:07 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:36:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
In-Reply-To: <Kilauea159366-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
References: <Kilauea159366-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
Message-ID: <8C95167FBCA433C-B58-D0C7@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
To: JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 8:01 AM
Subject: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"


If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoq0El 


 

 A short poem by Edwin Arlington Robinson (1869-1935), whom we remember from creations such as Miniver Cheevy and Richard Cory as a poet of everyday language and characters. He was revolutionary in ways not often discussed, Scott Donaldson asserts in his introduction to a new Pocket Poets volume of the work. Robinson's fortunes as a poet have waxed and waned, but as Donaldson reminds us, from the start of his career he "cast aside all the archaism and prettiness that afflicted fin de si?cle writing," keeping within the constraints of meter and rhyme, but writing poems in which one hears, very early in the narrative of modern American poetry "a conversational voice, about to tell a story." 





 Vain Gratuities 
Never was there a man much uglier
In eyes of other women, or more grim:
"The Lord has filled her chalice to the brim,
So let us pray she's a philosopher,"
They said; and there was more they said of her?
Deeming it, after twenty years with him,
No wonder that she kept her figure slim
And always made you think of lavender.


But she, demure as ever, and as fair,
Almost, as they remembered her before
She found him, would have laughed had she been there;
And all they said would have been heard no more
Than foam that washes on an island shore
Where there are none to listen or to care.


 





KEEP CLICKING:

 About ROBINSON POEMS

About Edward Arlington Robinson

About Everyman's Library Pocket Poet Editions

PLUS:

ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION

 Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD

 Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's CHINESE APPLES

Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf Poem-a-Day archive. 


     










Excerpt from ROBINSON POEMS. Copyright ? 2007 by Everyman's Library. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com 

You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Apr 20 09:52:42 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:52:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
In-Reply-To: <8C95167FBCA433C-B58-D0C7@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Kilauea159366-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C95167FBCA433C-B58-D0C7@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4628C5AA.5040404@opus40.org>

My brother -- not a poet -- has been reading a poem a day of Robinson's 
from dailylit.com, and sending me the ones he likes best. There's some 
powerful work there.

jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> To: JforJames at aol.com
> Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 8:01 AM
> Subject: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
>
> If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit 
> http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoq0El
>
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0IEM0Ee> 	
> 	 
>
> 	A short poem by Edwin Arlington Robinson 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zop0Ek> 
> (1869-1935), whom we remember from creations such as Miniver Cheevy 
> and Richard Cory as a poet of everyday language and characters. He was 
> revolutionary in ways not often discussed, Scott Donaldson asserts in 
> his introduction to a new Pocket Poets 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zCz0EC> 
> volume of the work. Robinson's fortunes as a poet have waxed and 
> waned, but as Donaldson reminds us, from the start of his career he 
> "cast aside all the archaism and prettiness that afflicted /fin de 
> si?cle/ writing," keeping within the constraints of meter and rhyme, 
> but writing poems in which one hears, very early in the narrative of 
> modern American poetry "a conversational voice, about to tell a story."
>
>
>
> 	*Vain Gratuities*
> Never was there a man much uglier
> In eyes of other women, or more grim:
> "The Lord has filled her chalice to the brim,
> So let us pray she's a philosopher,"
> They said; and there was more they said of her?
> Deeming it, after twenty years with him,
> No wonder that she kept her figure slim
> And always made you think of lavender.
>
>
> But she, demure as ever, and as fair,
> Almost, as they remembered her before
> She found him, would have laughed had she been there;
> And all they said would have been heard no more
> Than foam that washes on an island shore
> Where there are none to listen or to care.
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
> *KEEP CLICKING*:
>
> About ROBINSON POEMS 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
>
> About Edward Arlington Robinson 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zop0Ek>
>
> About Everyman's Library Pocket Poet Editions 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zCz0EC>
>
> *PLUS*:
>
> ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0y6C0E2>
>
> Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's *FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD* 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zcR0E3>
>
> Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's *CHINESE APPLES* 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0y6A0Ez>
>
> Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf 
> Poem-a-Day archive 
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zZe0EE>.
>
>
> 	    	<http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
>
> <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
>
>
>
>
>
> Excerpt from ROBINSON POEMS. Copyright ? 2007 by Everyman's Library. 
> Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random 
> House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be 
> reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.
>
> We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to 
> knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com <mailto:knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com>
>
> You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's 
> Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
> unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com 
> <mailto:unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>. Or if you received 
> this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to 
> sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com 
> <mailto:sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>.
> 	
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 09:54:18 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:54:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] E. A. Robinson,
	new biography & Gardiner Public Library website
Message-ID: <8C9516A8629DE2C-B58-D225@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/publicity/donaldsonexcerpt.html
 
This book derives from the conviction that Edwin Arlington Robinson was a great American poet and an exceptionally fine human being. The story of his life deserves telling and has not been told. 
Robinson was born December 22, 1869, at Head Tide, Maine, and died in New York City on April 5, 1935. He grew up during the latter days of the Victorians?Tennyson, Browning, Arnold?in England and the Fireside Poets?Longfellow, Lowell, Bryant?in the United States. But the energy was waning, and by the turn of the century most poetry had degenerated into prettified evocations of the natural world. From the start, Robinson declared his independence from that genteel tradition. A few others joined him, among them in England A. E. Housman, whose A Shropshire Lad appeared in the same year?1896?as EAR's first volume, The Torrent and the Night Before. Among the British poets Robinson most admired, Housman (1859-1935) was a decade older than he, Thomas Hardy (1840-1928) a generation his senior, and Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936) his near contemporary. Robinson, who was to become our first truly modern poet, goes back a long way in time.
 
--
I was in Maine a couple weeks ago and saw there was celebration at the Gardiner Public Library. But I wasn't able to make any of the events. Here's the library's website devoted to poet:
 
http://www.earobinson.com/
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Apr 20 10:00:30 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:00:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] E. A. Robinson,	new biography & Gardiner Public
	Library website
In-Reply-To: <8C9516A8629DE2C-B58-D225@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C9516A8629DE2C-B58-D225@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4628C77E.3050502@opus40.org>

 From Donaldson:

As the poet Winfield Townley Scott observed in his notebooks, there are 
basically two kinds of poetry. One is represented by Hart Crane's line 
"The seal's wide spindrift gaze toward paradise," the other by 
Robinson's "And he was all alone there when he died." One is a magic 
gesture of language, the other "a commentary on human life so 
concentrated as to give off considerable pressure."



jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/publicity/donaldsonexcerpt.html
>  
> This book derives from the conviction that Edwin Arlington Robinson 
> was a great American poet and an exceptionally fine human being. The 
> story of his life deserves telling and has not been told.
> Robinson was born December 22, 1869, at Head Tide, Maine, and died in 
> New York City on April 5, 1935. He grew up during the latter days of 
> the Victorians?Tennyson, Browning, Arnold?in England and the Fireside 
> Poets?Longfellow, Lowell, Bryant?in the United States. But the energy 
> was waning, and by the turn of the century most poetry had degenerated 
> into prettified evocations of the natural world. From the start, 
> Robinson declared his independence from that genteel tradition. A few 
> others joined him, among them in England A. E. Housman, whose A 
> Shropshire Lad appeared in the same year?1896?as EAR's first volume, 
> The Torrent and the Night Before. Among the British poets Robinson 
> most admired, Housman (1859-1935) was a decade older than he, Thomas 
> Hardy (1840-1928) a generation his senior, and Rudyard Kipling 
> (1865-1936) his near contemporary. Robinson, who was to become our 
> first truly modern poet, goes back a long way in time.
>  
> --
> I was in Maine a couple weeks ago and saw there was celebration at the 
> Gardiner Public Library. But I wasn't able to make any of the events. 
> Here's the library's website devoted to poet:
>  
> http://www.earobinson.com/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 10:33:48 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:33:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
In-Reply-To: <4628C5AA.5040404@opus40.org>
References: <Kilauea159366-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com>
	<8C95167FBCA433C-B58-D0C7@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
	<4628C5AA.5040404@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704200733i8781f51xe7741d9ebfb4e919@mail.gmail.com>

I like Robinson's work a lot.  Some people dismiss him as a Frost clone, but
any careful reader will see the layers & depth in a Robinson poem.  Most of
us are familiar with anthology pieces like "Miniver Cheevy," "Richard Cory,"
and "Rueben Bright," and indeed, some of Robinson's best work comes in these
short narrative lyrics.  My favorite Robinson poem is "Eros Turranos."  I
find the final lines absolutely chilling.  I also love how the insistent
rhyme scheme enforces how the woman in the poem is trapped by both her
husband and by the town itself.  The rhyme also has a kind of hypnotic
effect, underscores how the poem "envelopes and allures" readers into the
same comfort that the husband enjoys.

Jeff Newberry
Eros Turannos
E.A. Robinson

She fears him, and will always ask
What fated her to choose him;
She meets in his engaging mask
All reason to refuse him.
But what she meets and what she fears
Are less than are the downward years,
Drawn slowly to the foamless weirs
Of age, were she to lose him.

Between a blurred sagacity
That once had power to sound him,
And Love, that will not let him be
The Judas that she found him,
Her pride assuages her almost,
As if it were alone the cost.
He sees that he will not be lost,
And waits, and looks around him.

A sense of ocean and old trees
Envelops and allures him;
Tradition, touching all he sees,
Beguiles and reassures him.
And all her doubts of what he says
Are dimmed by what she knows of days,
Till even Prejudice delays
And fades, and she secures him.

The falling leaf inaugurates
The reign of her confusion;
The pounding wave reverberates
The dirge of her illusion.
And Home, where passion lived and died,
Becomes a place where she can hide,
While all the town and harbor side
Vibrate with her seclusion.

We tell you, tapping on our brows
The story as it should be,
As if the story of a house
Were told, or ever could be.
We'll have no kindly veil between
Her visions and those we have seen,
As if we guessed what hers have been,
Or what they are or would be.

Meanwhile we do no harm, for they
That with a god have striven,
Not hearing much of what we say,
Take what the god has given.
Though like waves breaking it may be,
Or like a changed familiar tree,
Or like a stairway to the sea,
Where down the blind are driven.


On 4/20/07, TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> My brother -- not a poet -- has been reading a poem a day of Robinson's
> from dailylit.com, and sending me the ones he likes best. There's some
> powerful work there.
>
> jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> > To: JforJames at aol.com
> > Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 8:01 AM
> > Subject: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
> >
> > If you cannot view images in your e-mail, please visit
> > http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoq0El
> >
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0IEM0Ee>
> >
> >
> >       A short poem by Edwin Arlington Robinson
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zop0Ek>
> > (1869-1935), whom we remember from creations such as Miniver Cheevy
> > and Richard Cory as a poet of everyday language and characters. He was
> > revolutionary in ways not often discussed, Scott Donaldson asserts in
> > his introduction to a new Pocket Poets
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zCz0EC>
> > volume of the work. Robinson's fortunes as a poet have waxed and
> > waned, but as Donaldson reminds us, from the start of his career he
> > "cast aside all the archaism and prettiness that afflicted /fin de
> > si?cle/ writing," keeping within the constraints of meter and rhyme,
> > but writing poems in which one hears, very early in the narrative of
> > modern American poetry "a conversational voice, about to tell a story."
> >
> >
> >
> >       *Vain Gratuities*
> > Never was there a man much uglier
> > In eyes of other women, or more grim:
> > "The Lord has filled her chalice to the brim,
> > So let us pray she's a philosopher,"
> > They said; and there was more they said of her?
> > Deeming it, after twenty years with him,
> > No wonder that she kept her figure slim
> > And always made you think of lavender.
> >
> >
> > But she, demure as ever, and as fair,
> > Almost, as they remembered her before
> > She found him, would have laughed had she been there;
> > And all they said would have been heard no more
> > Than foam that washes on an island shore
> > Where there are none to listen or to care.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *KEEP CLICKING*:
> >
> > About ROBINSON POEMS
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
> >
> > About Edward Arlington Robinson
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zop0Ek>
> >
> > About Everyman's Library Pocket Poet Editions
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zCz0EC>
> >
> > *PLUS*:
> >
> > ENTER TO WIN a copy of THE KNOPF NATIONAL POETRY MONTH COLLECTION
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0y6C0E2>
> >
> > Purchase a signed edition of Kevin Young's *FOR THE CONFEDERATE DEAD*
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zcR0E3>
> >
> > Purchase a signed edition of W. S. Di Piero's *CHINESE APPLES*
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0y6A0Ez>
> >
> > Miss one of our daily poems? You can view them online in the Knopf
> > Poem-a-Day archive
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zZe0EE>.
> >
> >
> >               <
> http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
> >
> > <http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jsQG0DXKYc0Wa0zoo0Ej>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Excerpt from ROBINSON POEMS. Copyright (c) 2007 by Everyman's Library.
> > Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random
> > House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be
> > reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the
> publisher.
> >
> > We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to
> > knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com <mailto:knopfpoetry at randomhouse.com>
> >
> > You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's
> > Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> > unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> > <mailto:unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>. Or if you received
> > this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to
> > sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com
> > <mailto:sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> > from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> --
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Apr 20 14:17:00 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 20:17:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"
References: <Kilauea159366-1346-43885468-2-1021@flonetwork.com><8C95167FBCA433C-B58-D0C7@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com><4628C5AA.5040404@opus40.org>
	<731bb17a0704200733i8781f51xe7741d9ebfb4e919@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c78378$1745e800$8ceb3652@ANNY>

The World

Some are the brothers of all humankind,
And own them, whatsoever their estate;
And some, for sorrow and self-scorn, are blind
With enmity for man?s unguarded fate.
 
For some there is a music all day long
Like flutes in paradise, they are so glad;
And there is hell?s eternal under-song
Of curses and the cries of men gone mad.
 
Some say the Scheme with love stands luminous,
Some say ?t were better back to chaos hurled;
And so ?t is what we are that makes for us
The measure and the meaning of the world.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Edward Arlington Robinson's "Vain Gratuities"


  I like Robinson's work a lot.  Some people dismiss him as a Frost clone, but any careful reader will see the layers & depth in a Robinson poem.  Most of us are familiar with anthology pieces like "Miniver Cheevy," "Richard Cory," and "Rueben Bright," and indeed, some of Robinson's best work comes in these short narrative lyrics.  My favorite Robinson poem is "Eros Turranos."  I find the final lines absolutely chilling.  I also love how the insistent rhyme scheme enforces how the woman in the poem is trapped by both her husband and by the town itself.  The rhyme also has a kind of hypnotic effect, underscores how the poem "envelopes and allures" readers into the same comfort that the husband enjoys. 

  Jeff Newberry
  Eros Turannos
  E.A. Robinson

  She fears him, and will always ask
  What fated her to choose him;
  She meets in his engaging mask
  All reason to refuse him.
  But what she meets and what she fears 
  Are less than are the downward years,
  Drawn slowly to the foamless weirs
  Of age, were she to lose him. 


  Between a blurred sagacity
  That once had power to sound him,
  And Love, that will not let him be
  The Judas that she found him,
  Her pride assuages her almost,
  As if it were alone the cost. 
  He sees that he will not be lost,
  And waits, and looks around him. 


  A sense of ocean and old trees
  Envelops and allures him;
  Tradition, touching all he sees,
  Beguiles and reassures him.
  And all her doubts of what he says
  Are dimmed by what she knows of days, 
  Till even Prejudice delays
  And fades, and she secures him.

  The falling leaf inaugurates
  The reign of her confusion;
  The pounding wave reverberates
  The dirge of her illusion.
  And Home, where passion lived and died,
  Becomes a place where she can hide, 
  While all the town and harbor side
  Vibrate with her seclusion.

  We tell you, tapping on our brows
  The story as it should be,
  As if the story of a house
  Were told, or ever could be.
  We'll have no kindly veil between
  Her visions and those we have seen, 
  As if we guessed what hers have been,
  Or what they are or would be. 


  Meanwhile we do no harm, for they
  That with a god have striven,
  Not hearing much of what we say,
  Take what the god has given.
  Though like waves breaking it may be,
  Or like a changed familiar tree, 
  Or like a stairway to the sea,
  Where down the blind are driven.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 12:33:24 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:33:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Portfolio: George Quasha 
Message-ID: <c65.11c87683.335b96d4@aol.com>

_http://www.chronogram.com/issue/2007/4/Arts+&+Culture/Portfolio-George-Quasha
_ 
(http://www.chronogram.com/issue/2007/4/Arts+&+Culture/Portfolio-George-Quasha) 
 
Portfolio: George Quasha
by Beth E. Wilson, March 30, 2007 
 

I like to think of poetics in its original sense, which, in Greek, is  simply 
?making.? [When I started working on my first book, America a Prophecy],  a 
poetry anthology, back in 1973, I was interested in people who thought in  
language in such a way, that their language changed by the quality of the  thought
?there was the real poetics issue. That shows you how poetics works.  
Philosophy became indistinguishable from poetry at that point, and art that grew  out 
of that perception would become a kind of poetics issue, how language and  
thinking extend into particular kinds of action, and have the same structure. I  
came into this by doing [William] Blake scholarship, and I came up with most 
of  the methods and principles by trying to understand what Blake was  doing.




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 12:41:05 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:41:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fired Over Poem About Emmitt Till 
Message-ID: <d5c.6975f9c.335b98a1@aol.com>

 
_http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/columnists/hc-reyna0420.artapr20,0,796924
4.column_ 
(http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/columnists/hc-reyna0420.artapr20,0,7969244.column) 
 
Fired Over Poem About Emmitt Till
April 20, 2007 
 
But not all students are as lucky to have school administrators who  
understand the role of poetry as many of their teachers do. Sadly, that seems to  be 
the case at the Celerity Nascent Charter School in Los Angeles.
 
Celerity Nascent is at the center of a disturbing controversy surrounding  
former Connecticut Poet Laureate Marilyn Nelson's "A Wreath for Emmett Till."  
This book-length poem, which has won the Coretta Scott King, the Boston  
Globe-Horn Book and the Printz Honor awards, sparked the firing of two teachers  by 
the administration of Celerity Nascent.
 
Marisol Alba's seventh-grade students had prepared to read a sonnet from  the 
book and lay a wreath for Emmett Till during a schoolwide program for  
African American History Month. 





************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 12:45:32 2007
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEXT FRIDAY - BYRNE, LEHMAN, and EQUI
In-Reply-To: <d5c.6975f9c.335b98a1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <195376.17216.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


MiPOesias presents


    ~~~~ David Lehman, Elaine Equi, and Mairead Byrne ~~~~
    

Friday, April 27, 2007 @ 7:00 PM
      

~~~~~~~~~~
 
  DAVID LEHMAN was born in New York City in 1948. He is the author of 
six books of poems, most recently When a Woman Loves a Man (Scribner, 
2005). Among his nonfiction books are The Last Avant-Garde: The Making of 
the New York School of Poets (Anchor, 1999) and The Perfect Murder 
(Michigan, 2000). He edited Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the 
Present, which appeared from Scribner in 2003. He teaches writing and 
literature in the graduate writing program of the New School in New York 
City and offers an undergraduate course each fall on ?Great Poems? at 
New   York University. He is the editor of a new edition of The Oxford 
Book of American Poetry, a one-volume comprehensive anthology of poems 
from Anne Bradstreet to the present. He initiated The Best American 
Poetry series in 1988 and received a Guggenheim Fellowship a year later. 
He lives in New York City and in Ithaca, New York.  
  http://www.mipoesias.com/April2004/lehman.htm  

   
ELAINE EQUI is the author of ten books including Surface Tension, 
Voice-Over, which won the San Francisco State Poetry Award, and The Cloud of 
Knowable Things. Her latest is Ripple Effect: New & Selected Poems from 
Coffee House Press. She teaches in the MFA Programs at City College and 
The New School, and at New   York University.
  http://www.mipoesias.com/April2004/equi.htm  

   
  MAIR?AD BYRNE is employed as Associate Professor of English at Rhode 
Island School of Design in Providence. She immigrated to America from 
Ireland in 1994 and earned a PhD in English (Theory & Cultural Studies) 
from Purdue University in 2001. Recent publications include a poetry 
collection, Nelson & The Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press 2003); three 
chapbooks Vivas (Wild Honey Press 2005), An Educated Heart (Palm Press 
2005), and Kalends (Belladonna* 2005); and a talk, Some Differences 
Between Poetry & Standup (UbuWeb 2005).
    http://www.mipoesias.com/2006Volume20Issue1/byrne.html
 
   
    ~~~~~~~~
 
  STAIN BAR
  766 Grand   Street Brooklyn , NY 11211
  (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west)
  718/387-7840
  http://www.stainbar.com/  
     
  ~~~~~~~~
  

  Hope you'll stop by!
   
  Amy King
  MiPO Host
  http://www.mipoesias.com 
   




       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 21 16:42:41 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:42:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
References: <195376.17216.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c78456$15bd2640$f7d73152@ANNY>

501. "The purpose of language is to express thoughts." - So presumably the purpose of every sentence is to express a thought. Then what thought is expressed, for example, by the sentence "It's raining"?-



Ludwig Wittgenstein 
Philosophical Investigations
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 17:09:27 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:09:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
Message-ID: <cd9.fbaa2a5.335bd787@aol.com>

 
Prayer
 
Whatever happens.  Whatever
what is is is what
I  want.  Only that.  But that.
 
--Galway Kinnell
A New Selected Poems, Mariner Books, 2001
 
 
a message dated 4/21/2007 4:46:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

501. ?The purpose of language is to express  thoughts.? ? So presumably the 
purpose of every sentence is to express a  thought. Then what thought is 
expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s  raining??-
 
 
 
Ludwig Wittgenstein 
Philosophical  Investigations



 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From jfq at myuw.net  Sat Apr 21 17:26:12 2007
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:26:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <000201c78456$15bd2640$f7d73152@ANNY>
References: <195376.17216.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<000201c78456$15bd2640$f7d73152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <462A8174.2060905@myuw.net>

ah, uncle ludwig. some other favorite aphorisms of mine dealing with tangents of that point:

336. this case [asking do you have the thought before the expression is found] is similar to the one in which someone imagines that one could not 
think of a sentence with the remarkable word order of German or Latin just as it stands. One first has to think it, and then one arranges the words in 
that queer order. (A French politician once wrote that it was a peculiarity of the French language that in it words occur in the order in which one 
thinks of them.)

117. You say to me: "you understand this expression, don't you? Well then--I am using it in the sense you are familiar with."--As if sense were an 
atmosphere accompanying the word, which it carried with it into every kind of application. If, for example, someone says that the sentence "this is 
here" (saying which he points to an object in front of him) makes sense to him, then he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence 
is actually used. There it does make sense.

107. It was true that our considerations could not be scientific ones. It was not of any possible interest to us to find out empirically 'that, 
contrary to our preconceived ideas, it is possible to think such-and-such.'--whatever that may mean. (The conception of thought as a gaseous medium). 
And we must not advance any kind of theory. There must be nothing hypothetical in our considerations. We must do away with all explanation, and 
description alone must take it's place. And this description gets its light, that is to say, its purpose, from philosophical problems. These are, of 
course, not empirical problems; they are solved, rather, by looking into the workings of our language, and that in such a way as to make us recognize 
  those workings: in despite of an urge to misunderstand them. The problems are solved, not by reporting a new experience, but by arranging what we 
have always known. Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of our language.

And finally, from Zettel,

155. A poet's words can pierce us. And that is of course causally connected to the use that they have in our life. And it is also connected with the 
way in which, conformably to this use, we let our thoughts roam up and down in the familiar surroundings of the words.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 501. ?The purpose of language is to express thoughts.? ? So presumably 
> the purpose of every sentence is to express a thought. Then what thought 
> is expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s raining??-
>  
>  
>  
> Ludwig Wittgenstein
> Philosophical Investigations
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 21 18:11:46 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:11:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
References: <cd9.fbaa2a5.335bd787@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014101c78462$0db73380$f7d73152@ANNY>

One of my favorite poems.
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein


  Prayer

  Whatever happens.  Whatever
  what is is is what
  I want.  Only that.  But that.

  --Galway Kinnell
  A New Selected Poems, Mariner Books, 2001


  a message dated 4/21/2007 4:46:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    501. ?The purpose of language is to express thoughts.? ? So presumably the purpose of every sentence is to express a thought. Then what thought is expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s raining??-



    Ludwig Wittgenstein 
    Philosophical Investigations
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 21 18:15:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:15:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
References: <195376.17216.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><000201c78456$15bd2640$f7d73152@ANNY>
	<462A8174.2060905@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <014901c78462$8bb20670$f7d73152@ANNY>

this is the best of the ones you sent:

155. A poet's words can pierce us. And that is of course causally connected to the use that they have in our life. And it is also connected with the way in which, conformably to this use, we let our thoughts roam up and down in the familiar surroundings of the words.

+ 1

474. I shall get burnt if I put my hand in the fire: that is certainty.

        That is to say: here we see the meaning of certainty. (What it amounts to, not just the meaning of the word ?certainty.?)

Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations 





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein


> ah, uncle ludwig. some other favorite aphorisms of mine dealing with tangents of that point:
> 
> 336. this case [asking do you have the thought before the expression is found] is similar to the one in which someone imagines that one could not 
> think of a sentence with the remarkable word order of German or Latin just as it stands. One first has to think it, and then one arranges the words in 
> that queer order. (A French politician once wrote that it was a peculiarity of the French language that in it words occur in the order in which one 
> thinks of them.)
> 
> 117. You say to me: "you understand this expression, don't you? Well then--I am using it in the sense you are familiar with."--As if sense were an 
> atmosphere accompanying the word, which it carried with it into every kind of application. If, for example, someone says that the sentence "this is 
> here" (saying which he points to an object in front of him) makes sense to him, then he should ask himself in what special circumstances this sentence 
> is actually used. There it does make sense.
> 
> 107. It was true that our considerations could not be scientific ones. It was not of any possible interest to us to find out empirically 'that, 
> contrary to our preconceived ideas, it is possible to think such-and-such.'--whatever that may mean. (The conception of thought as a gaseous medium). 
> And we must not advance any kind of theory. There must be nothing hypothetical in our considerations. We must do away with all explanation, and 
> description alone must take it's place. And this description gets its light, that is to say, its purpose, from philosophical problems. These are, of 
> course, not empirical problems; they are solved, rather, by looking into the workings of our language, and that in such a way as to make us recognize 
>  those workings: in despite of an urge to misunderstand them. The problems are solved, not by reporting a new experience, but by arranging what we 
> have always known. Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of our language.
> 
> And finally, from Zettel,
> 
> 155. A poet's words can pierce us. And that is of course causally connected to the use that they have in our life. And it is also connected with the 
> way in which, conformably to this use, we let our thoughts roam up and down in the familiar surroundings of the words.
> 
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> 501. ?The purpose of language is to express thoughts.? ? So presumably 
>> the purpose of every sentence is to express a thought. Then what thought 
>> is expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s raining??-
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Ludwig Wittgenstein
>> Philosophical Investigations
>> 
>> 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 21 18:16:11 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:16:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Umberto Boccioni
Message-ID: <015701c78462$ab20bf60$f7d73152@ANNY>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Anny Ballardini 
To: anny.ballardini at tin.it 
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:43 PM
Subject: [NarcissusWorks] Umberto Boccioni




Mine disaster in Radbod in Westphalia (Rhenania)
Umberto Boccioni
(Reggio Calabria, 1882 - Verona, 1916)
Photomechanical reproduction, 296 x 226 mm
on "L'Illustrazione Italiana"


--
Posted By Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 4/21/2007 11:36:00 PM 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 18:24:13 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:24:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
Message-ID: <bfb.14896516.335be90d@aol.com>

 
Anny, your Wittgenstein post reminded me of Kinnell's poem for some reason.  
I heard him read it this week at a reading at our Town Hall (a very New 
England  thing, being a also the public board meeting of the Friends of the 
Library).  Anyway, Kinnell introduced the poem by saying he had attended a lecture 
where  the lecturer had uttered a sentence with 'is is' in it. That set him to 
thinking  about a valid locution that would involve three consecutive is's. He 
started  jotting down some words on a notepad and just as the lecture ended & 
people  started clapping, he said he finished the "Prayer" poem, and felt like 
the  applause for him, then realizing he'd heard almost nothing of the 
lecture,  and being a bit embarrassed by that. 
 
Kinnell didn't mention Parmenides...but the poem made me think of his  
fragment quoted below. I was going to ask Kinnell after the reading about  
Parmenides' fragment and his poem, but the poet was mobbed with admirers  and many 
books to sign
Finnegan 
-
There remains, then, but one word by which to express the [true] road: Is.  
And on this road there are many signs that What Is has no beginning and never  
will be destroyed: it is whole, still, and without end. It neither was nor 
will  be, it simply is.?now, altogether, one, continuous. How could you go about  
investigating its birth? How and whence could it have grown? I shall not 
allow  you to say or think of it as coming from not-being, for it is impossible to 
say  or think that not-being is. Besides, what could have stirred up activity 
so that  it should arise from not-being later rather than earlier?
 
--Parmenides, 
The Presocratics, edited by Philip Wheelwright, The Odyssey Press,  1966

In a message dated 4/21/2007 5:10:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

 
Prayer
 
Whatever happens.  Whatever
what is is is what
I  want.  Only that.  But that.
 
--Galway Kinnell
A New Selected Poems, Mariner Books, 2001
 
 
a message dated 4/21/2007 4:46:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

501. ?The purpose of language is to express  thoughts.? ? So presumably the 
purpose of every sentence is to express a  thought. Then what thought is 
expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s  raining??-
 
 
 
Ludwig Wittgenstein 
Philosophical  Investigations



 



 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From millb at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 19:51:42 2007
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:51:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPW--
In-Reply-To: <8C94F3BF42A2C9B-B10-930B@WEBMAIL-RD11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C95287258D3FEE-FD8-132F7@WEBMAIL-RC02.sysops.aol.com>

Greetings,
 
I just heard that the poet James Ragan left his post as Director of the professional writing program at USC (MPW).  Does anyone on the list know what happened?  I sent an email to the program, but all they would say was that he retired.
 
Thanks,
 
Mill
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 22 05:07:16 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:07:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wittgenstein
References: <bfb.14896516.335be90d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c784bd$9fcbafc0$48ad3252@ANNY>

I think this book you are quoting:
The Presocratics, edited by Philip Wheelwright, The Odyssey Press, 1966

has to appear on top of your already exhaustive book list. 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:24 AM


  Anny, your Wittgenstein post reminded me of Kinnell's poem for some reason. I heard him read it this week at a reading at our Town Hall (a very New England thing, being a also the public board meeting of the Friends of the Library). Anyway, Kinnell introduced the poem by saying he had attended a lecture where the lecturer had uttered a sentence with 'is is' in it. That set him to thinking about a valid locution that would involve three consecutive is's. He started jotting down some words on a notepad and just as the lecture ended & people started clapping, he said he finished the "Prayer" poem, and felt like the applause for him, then realizing he'd heard almost nothing of the lecture, and being a bit embarrassed by that. 

  Kinnell didn't mention Parmenides...but the poem made me think of his fragment quoted below. I was going to ask Kinnell after the reading about Parmenides' fragment and his poem, but the poet was mobbed with admirers and many books to sign
  Finnegan 
  -
  There remains, then, but one word by which to express the [true] road: Is. And on this road there are many signs that What Is has no beginning and never will be destroyed: it is whole, still, and without end. It neither was nor will be, it simply is.?now, altogether, one, continuous. How could you go about investigating its birth? How and whence could it have grown? I shall not allow you to say or think of it as coming from not-being, for it is impossible to say or think that not-being is. Besides, what could have stirred up activity so that it should arise from not-being later rather than earlier?

  --Parmenides, 
  The Presocratics, edited by Philip Wheelwright, The Odyssey Press, 1966

  In a message dated 4/21/2007 5:10:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:
    Prayer

    Whatever happens.  Whatever
    what is is is what
    I want.  Only that.  But that.

    --Galway Kinnell
    A New Selected Poems, Mariner Books, 2001


    a message dated 4/21/2007 4:46:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
      501. ?The purpose of language is to express thoughts.? ? So presumably the purpose of every sentence is to express a thought. Then what thought is expressed, for example, by the sentence ?It?s raining??-



      Ludwig Wittgenstein 
      Philosophical Investigations
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 13:11:09 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:11:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Emma Lazarus's "Sunrise: September 26, 1881"
Message-ID: <c2d.f7269f8.335cf12d@aol.com>





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From: "Knopf Poetry"<knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com>
Subject: Emma Lazarus's "Sunrise: September 26, 1881"
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:00:29 -0400 (EDT)
Size: 29358
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 13:33:50 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:33:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorn reviewed by Kleinzahler in NYT Book Review
Message-ID: <cb0.1026fba9.335cf67e@aol.com>

_http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/books/review/Kleinzahler.t.html_ 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/books/review/Kleinzahler.t.html) 
 
Ed Dorn?s poetry fits roughly into three periods: the early, Black  
Mountain-influenced poems; the long poem in four parts, alternately titled  ?Gunslinger?
 and ?Slinger?; and the later poems, chiefly epigrammatic, satiric  and 
political.
 
The best work is the early work, written in his late 20s and early 30s. Six  
uncollected poems, all beauties, appeared in Donald Allen?s ?The New American 
 Poetry, 1945-1960? ? these would have been, for most readers, the first  
encounter with Dorn?s work. This was followed by the publication of two  
collections from LeRoi Jones?s Totem Press, ?The Newly Fallen? and ?Hands Up!,?  
issued in 1962 and 1963.
 
 



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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 14:01:09 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:01:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mr. Prose Poem interviewed
Message-ID: <c6d.fb9677f.335cfce5@aol.com>

_http://groups.google.com/group/russell-edson-poetry-project/web/an-interview-
with-russell-edson?hl=en_ 
(http://groups.google.com/group/russell-edson-poetry-project/web/an-interview-with-russell-edson?hl=en) 
 
The so-called literary devices, metaphor, symbol, irony, as you
put it,  are the natural workings of the human brain. One doesn't
have to think of  using them, they're already there like one's
hands or eyes.... It's how we're  all wired, to use a modern
expression.
== Russell Edson. quoted by Mark  Tursi in An Interview with
Russell Edson. Russell Edson, Poetry  Project,
_http://groups.google.com/group/russell-edson-poetry-project/web/an-interview-
with-russell-edson?hl=en_ 
(http://groups.google.com/group/russell-edson-poetry-project/web/an-interview-with-russell-edson?hl=en) 
viewed  Apr 12, 2007.




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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 18:38:52 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:38:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
Message-ID: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com>

You can vote here...
_http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogos
phere+Voting+Begins.html_ 
(http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogosphere+Voting+Begins.html) 
 
 



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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr 22 18:58:43 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:58:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
In-Reply-To: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com>
References: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <462BE8A3.6060208@opus40.org>

Hmmmph. I wasn't nominated. But one of our little family here was...

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> You can vote here...
> http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogosphere+Voting+Begins.html
>  
>  
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com 
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sun Apr 22 19:43:53 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:43:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorn and that Obscure College
Message-ID: <462BF339.4000409@opus40.org>

A review in the Sunday Times of Ed Dorn's collected poems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/books/review/Kleinzahler.t.html?ref=review

But what I find odd is the teaser: "Poems new and old from Ed Dorn, who 
was always identified with an experimental college in North Carolina."

Is Black Mountain so forgotten?

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 20:06:07 2007
From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (agj)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:06:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Black Mountain Collective Event
Message-ID: <45508.23469.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


--- Daniel Godston <dgodston at SBCGLOBAL.NET> wrote:

> Date:         Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:41:32 -0500
> From:         Daniel Godston
> <dgodston at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> Subject: Black Mountain Collective Event
> To:           POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
> 
> Black Mountain Collective Event
> 8 p.m. on Wednesday, April 25
> at Peter Jones Gallery
> co-curated by David Hawkins and Dan Godston
> 
> David Baptiste-Chirot -- poetry
> Matt Field -- guitar
> Justin Foster -- flute
> Dan Godston -- trumpet, percussion
> David Hawkins -- painting
> Carla Hayden -- voice, movement
> Alexander Jorgensen -- poetry
> Toni Asante Lightfoot -- poetry
> James Moeller -- voice, movement, guitar
> Les Renszarski -- poetry, words
> Andrew Robb -- guitar, voice
> Sanjay Mehta -- drums
> Sarah Weaver -- trombone
> 
> The recently formed Black Mountain Collective was
> founded by Jeff
> Kowalkowski, David Hawkins and Andrew Morgan, with
> an emphasis on work
> created live in the present moment. The collective
> was inspired by the
> "happenings" orchestrated by John Cage and Robert
> Rauschenberg and others
> from Black Mountain College in the 1950s.This
> concert, the second in a
> series of  four planned for 2007, will feature live
> painting by Hawkins,
> multi-disciplinary improvisations, movement, poetry,
> film, and sound art.
> Other random acts may also occur.
> 
> Peter Jones Gallery is at 1806 W. Cuyler in Chicago
> www.peterjonesgallery.com
> $5 suggested donation
> 


--
"[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 21:02:56 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:02:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorn and that Obscure College
Message-ID: <cf0.de49ce4.335d5fc0@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/22/2007 7:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:

But what  I find odd is the teaser: "Poems new and old from Ed Dorn, who 
was always  identified with an experimental college in North Carolina."

Is Black  Mountain so forgotten?


 
3.4 Million Google hits.
I think Black Mountain continues to grow in its mystique. And even as  so 
many associated with it have died, the influence continues. I  can't think of any 
artist colony or school or heydey (like San Francisco  in 50/60s) that rivals 
its revered and almost mythological status in  the history of American arts 
and letters. If an artist or poet who attended  or taught there is featured in 
a article or essay, it's almost a  lock that the Black Mountain pedigree will 
arise in the first few  sentences of the piece...as it did with Kleinzahler's 
review of Dorn.
Finnegan




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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Sun Apr 22 22:14:39 2007
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:14:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joe Langland
Message-ID: <391DEEC9-8332-4F4D-8CF6-2AE89E05EB93@ripon.edu>

I recently learned of the death of Joseph Langland, a distinctive  
poet and quite a character.  He was a prof of mine in grad school way  
back in the 1970s.

Unless I missed something, I haven't seen this passing mentioned  
anywhere in the usual poetry news sources.  Joe never had the  
reputation and career that his early work might have forecast, but he  
was a fine poet nonetheless, a generous soul, and someone deserving  
of more attention than he got.  I'm sure all his former students will  
never forget his wonderful recitations--he had the entire Norton  
Anthology by heart, or so it seemed, and did not require much  
prompting to recite big swatches of Frost, Keats, Stevens, Thomas,  
Wordsworth, Dickinson, et al.  Nor will we forget his singing.

 From the UMass website:

Obituary: Joseph Langland, noted poet, longtime professor

Joseph Langland, 90, of Amherst, renowned poet and professor emeritus  
of English who founded the MFA program in Creative Writing, died  
April 9.

Born in Spring Grove, Minn., he grew up on the family farm in  
northeastern Iowa, just outside of Decorah. He received an A.A. from  
Santa Ana College in California in 1936, and a B.A. and M.A. from the  
University of Iowa in 1940. He received an honorary doctorate from  
Luther College in 1975.

He served in the European Theater during World War II, earning an  
EAME Theater Medal with four bronze stars, American Theater Medal,  
and a Victory Medal. He rose to the rank of captain and stayed on  
after the conflict to serve as part of the military government in  
Bavaria.

Prior to joining the English Department in 1959, he taught for 11  
years at the University of Wyoming. He was a part-time instructor at  
the University of Iowa from 1946-48. He was also a visiting professor  
at numerous institutions, including the University of British  
Columbia; the University of Washington and San Francisco State College.

He retired from the faculty in 1979.

He was an influential voice in American poetry written after World  
War II and taught many who belong to the current generation of poets.

He was the author of numerous books of poetry, including ?The Green  
Town? (1956), ?The Wheel of Summer? (1963), ?The Sacrifice  
Poems? (1975), ?Any Body's Song? (1980) and ?Selected Poems? (1991).

He received numerous honors and awards for his poetry, including a  
National Council of the Arts Award, the Melville Cane Award, an Amy  
Lowell Award and a Ford Faculty Fellowship.

He was featured on ABC-TV's ?Meet the Professor? in 1963.

Many of his poems were set to music by composers, such as Morton  
Gould, Phillip Bezanson, Elliott Schwartz and Gerhard Krapf.

Several of his poems, most notably ?War,? commemorating the death of  
his brother Harold in World War II, have been translated into  
numerous languages and frequently anthologized. His poems have  
appeared in numerous magazines and journals, among them The New  
Yorker, Poetry, The Massachusetts Review and Northwest Review.

With Paul Engle, he also co-edited the highly regarded collection  
?Poet?s Choice? (1962) and with James Hall a collection of short  
stories titled ?The Short Story? (1956). For many years, he was also  
poetry editor of The Massachusetts Review.

He was married for 53 years to Judith Wood, who died in 1997.

He leaves a sister, Lois Langland, of Thousand Oaks, Calif.; a  
brother, Walter, of Decorah, Iowa; two sons, Joseph Langland Jr. of  
Amherst and Paul Langland of New York City; a daughter, Elizabeth  
Langland, of Larchmont, N.Y.; two grandchildren and a great-grandchild.

April 13, 2007.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Apr 23 00:52:45 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:52:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorn and that Obscure College
In-Reply-To: <cf0.de49ce4.335d5fc0@aol.com>
References: <cf0.de49ce4.335d5fc0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <462C3B9D.8090905@opus40.org>

Kleinzahler certainly knows about Black Mountain. I was wondering about 
whoever wrote the teaser.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/22/2007 7:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Opus40-01 at opus40.org writes:
>
>     But what I find odd is the teaser: "Poems new and old from Ed
>     Dorn, who
>     was always identified with an experimental college in North Carolina."
>
>     Is Black Mountain so forgotten?
>
> 3.4 Million Google hits.
> I think Black Mountain continues to grow in its mystique. And even as 
> so many associated with it have died, the influence continues. I can't 
> think of any artist colony or school or heydey (like San Francisco 
> in 50/60s) that rivals its revered and almost mythological status in 
> the history of American arts and letters. If an artist or poet who 
> attended or taught there is featured in a article or essay, it's 
> almost a lock that the Black Mountain pedigree will arise in the first 
> few sentences of the piece...as it did with Kleinzahler's review of Dorn.
> Finnegan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com 
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 03:15:39 2007
From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (agj)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue 3 of There Is Now Online
Message-ID: <283781.59018.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


> Be There or be square.
> 
> With work from Cindy Emch, Arpine Konyalian Grenier,
> Donald Illich,
> Alexander Jorgensen, Ruth Lepson, Warren Lloyd,
> Anh-Hoa Thi Nguyen, and
> Jeffrey Schrader, as well as the landscape paintings
> of Arthur Cadieux.
> 
> http://www.therejournal.com/issue3.html
> 
> ---
> There
> rewriting landscape
> www.therejournal.com
> therejournal at gmail.com
> 


--
"[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 04:01:25 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:01:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
References: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com> <462BE8A3.6060208@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003101c7857d$97503210$f6a93452@ANNY>

More than one, I'd say, I tried to vote three, but I couldn't...

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:58 AM


> Hmmmph. I wasn't nominated. But one of our little family here was...
>
> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>> You can vote here...
>> http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogosphere+Voting+Begins.html
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> See what's free at AOL.com 
>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 04:02:54 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:02:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Black Mountain Collective Event
References: <45508.23469.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003801c7857d$cc234c20$f6a93452@ANNY>

Very happy for David Baptiste-Chirot, he deserves it! (whatever that it is)

From: "agj" <jorgensen_a at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 2:06 AM


> 
> --- Daniel Godston <dgodston at SBCGLOBAL.NET> wrote:
> 
>> Date:         Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:41:32 -0500
>> From:         Daniel Godston
>> <dgodston at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>> Subject: Black Mountain Collective Event
>> To:           POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
>> 
>> Black Mountain Collective Event
>> 8 p.m. on Wednesday, April 25
>> at Peter Jones Gallery
>> co-curated by David Hawkins and Dan Godston
>> 
>> David Baptiste-Chirot -- poetry
>> Matt Field -- guitar
>> Justin Foster -- flute
>> Dan Godston -- trumpet, percussion
>> David Hawkins -- painting
>> Carla Hayden -- voice, movement
>> Alexander Jorgensen -- poetry
>> Toni Asante Lightfoot -- poetry
>> James Moeller -- voice, movement, guitar
>> Les Renszarski -- poetry, words
>> Andrew Robb -- guitar, voice
>> Sanjay Mehta -- drums
>> Sarah Weaver -- trombone
>> 
>> The recently formed Black Mountain Collective was
>> founded by Jeff
>> Kowalkowski, David Hawkins and Andrew Morgan, with
>> an emphasis on work
>> created live in the present moment. The collective
>> was inspired by the
>> "happenings" orchestrated by John Cage and Robert
>> Rauschenberg and others
>> from Black Mountain College in the 1950s.This
>> concert, the second in a
>> series of  four planned for 2007, will feature live
>> painting by Hawkins,
>> multi-disciplinary improvisations, movement, poetry,
>> film, and sound art.
>> Other random acts may also occur.
>> 
>> Peter Jones Gallery is at 1806 W. Cuyler in Chicago
>> www.peterjonesgallery.com
>> $5 suggested donation
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> "[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
> to those who watch." (Jean-Luc Godard)
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 07:20:58 2007
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:20:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joe Langland
Message-ID: <bbd.15c66fb5.335df09a@aol.com>

Langland came to Arkansas once to give a reading when I was a student there  
in the 80's. I remember liking his work much more than I thought I would. I  
believe that he came because Michael Heffernan was a former student of his. At  
the party after he spent most of his time talking with the translators about  
translations from Middle English.



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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 07:23:49 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:23:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry Daily
Message-ID: <008201c78599$e0185510$f6a93452@ANNY>


Contents
  1.. Letter from the Editors 
  2.. Sponsor Messages: 
    a.. West Chester University Poetry Conference 
    b.. Belle Letters Contest: Virginia Arts of the Book Center 
    c.. Greek Island Poetry - The Muses Workshop 
    d.. Shenandoah 57/1 focuses on Tom Wolfe 
    e.. Colrain Poetry Manuscript Conference 
    f.. More... 
  3.. Poetry news links 
  4.. Selected new arrivals 
  5.. This week's featured poets 
  6.. Last week's featured poets 
  7.. Last year's featured poets 
  8.. Poem from last year 
Subscription Information 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Letter from the Editors 
Dear Readers,

Spring fund drive news: through Friday's mail, we've received contributions from 339 readers totaling $19,277.75! Thank you, all!! 

We're still down from our pace last year, but a solid showing in the past week has helped close the gap a bit. No new harangue this week - just a reminder that we need your help to continue working for you and for poetry. Please join us and invite your friends-in-poetry to come along with you! 

Giving is easy: credit card contributions may be made online using our secure form (which this year includes a PayPal option). Or you may print out the form and send it by regular mail, along with your check or credit card number. If you prefer to contribute by check, please make your check payable in U.S. dollars to "Poetry Daily" and send it to: 

The Daily Poetry Association
P.O. Box 1306
Charlottesville, Virginia 22902-1306
USA

Contributors of $40 or more may receive our new PD t-shirt; contributors of $35 or more may receive our new PD coffee mug; and, NEW this year, contributors of $60 or more can choose to receive our Poetry Daily travel mug; all with our special 10th anniversary logo!

Any amount you can contribute will help us to carry on, and since Poetry Daily is a publication of The Daily Poetry Association, a not-for-profit charitable corporation under IRS section 501(c)(3), your contribution
is tax deductible in the U.S.

This week: on Tuesday we continue our series of prose features with Anne Stevenson's "The Unified Dance," from the March issue of Poetry:

  "Why did my father-an analytical philosopher who dismissed Yeats's dabblings in mysticism as 'completely crazy'-find these lines so irresistible?... Because, I suspect, poetry written for the ear speaks to the ear before it appeals to the mind or asks for an interpretation."

Look for it on Tuesday on our news page...

Thank you all once again for your loyalty to Poetry Daily and thank you again and again for your support! Enjoy this week's poems and Poets' Picks!

Warmest regards,

Don Selby & Diane Boller
Editors 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Sponsor Messages

 West Chester University Poetry Conference
Join the nation's only conference focused on poetic craft and verse technique. Our 13th year (June 6-9) features keynote speaker Kay Ryan, and distinguished workshop faculty Dick Davis, Rhina P. Espaillat, R.S. Gwynn, Rachel Hadas, H.L. Hix, X.J. Kennedy, David Mason, Eric McHenry, Molly Peacock,  Robert B. Shaw, A.E. Stallings, Timothy Steele, Catherine Tufariello, Terri Witek, David Sanders, Frank Wilson and Dana Gioia. Class sizes are small.

In addition to workshops there are panel discussions, readings, poetry & song concerts, conversation, socials, and much more. Set in historic West Chester, Pennsylvania the conference nurtures craft in a pleasantly
egalitarian community. 

 Belle Letters Contest at the Virginia Arts of the Book Center 
Do alphabetical letters stand out in your poems? Belle Letters is a contest looking for poems in which letters are foregrounded as vital elements of imagery and content. 

The prize: 30 copies of a limited-edition, letterpressed broadside and the poem anthologized on PD for a year.
DEADLINE June 1. Entry fee: $10 for two poems. Complete guidelines and criteria here...
Last year's Companion Poems winner here... 
Have a look at the beautiful broadsides here... 

 Greek Island Poetry - The Muses Workshop
Greek Island Poetry: The Muses Workshop. Write and study poetry and myth with A.E. Stallings on the island of Spetses. Rachel Hadas, Richard Cecil and Maura Stanton will be among this year's speakers. Past speakers
include Katerina Anghelaki-Rooke, Christopher Bakken, Aliki Barnstone, David Mason and Edmund Keeley.

June 24th-July 14th (shorter stays available) Additional information... E-mail... 

 Shenandoah 57/1 Focuses on Tom Wolfe
Essays on the prose of Tom Wolfe; essays and poems on the art of Cy Twombly; new fiction by William Hoffman and a consideration of his career in fiction. Also stories by Rebecca Makkai, Jennifer Davis and more. Plus poems by Mary Oliver, R.H.W. Dillard, Lyrae Van Clief, William Hollis and Christopher Matthews. Also Gibbons Ruark, Lisa Russ Spaar and a host of others. Additional information...

 Colrain Poetry Manuscript Conference
For Poets With a Book-Length Manuscript: first conference to provide the faculty, connections, and method necessary to set poets with a completed or in-process manuscript on a path towards publication. 
 
Faculty for 2007 includes editors and publishers: Martha Rhodes (Four Way Books), Jeffrey Levine (Tupelo Press), Jeffrey Shotts (Graywolf Press) and others; workshop leaders include Joan Houlihan (Concord Poetry Center); Frederick Marchant (Suffolk University), Ellen Dor? Watson (Smith College), Daniel Tobin (Emerson College) and others.

 The Catskill Poetry Workshop
Join Stephen Dunn, Lynn Emanuel, Carol Frost, Jay Hopler, Tom Sleigh, Chase Twichell, and Michael Waters July 9-14 at the 2007 Catskill Poetry Workshop. The six-day workshop offers classes on craft, evening readings by staff and guest writers, and individual manuscript conferences. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Poetry News Links 

News and reviews from around the web, updated daily: 

  a.. Robert Pinsky on "the anarchic and disruptive power of beauty" and W. B. Yeats's "The Fiddler of Dooney." (The Washington Post) 
  b.. A New Haven bookstore invites poets to recite for a loaf of bread. (The New York Times) 
  c.. Way More West: New and Selected Poems, by Edward Dorn, edited by Michael Rothenberg, reviewed by August Kleinzahler. (The New York Times) 
  d.. Ian Duhig's The Speed of Dark reviewed by Fran Brearton. (Guardian Unlimited) 
  e.. Wilma Elizabeth McDaniel, 88 - an obituary (Los Angeles Times) 
  f.. Natasha Trethewey wins the Pulitzer Prize. (The New York Times) 
  g.. New collections by Nikki Giovanni and the late Charles Bukowski reviewed by Elizabeth Lund. (The Christian Science Monitor) 
  h.. Elizabeth Lund talks with U.S. poet laureate Donald Hall. (The Christian Science Monitor) 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Selected New Arrivals 

These and other new arrivals are available for purchase via Poetry Daily/Amazon.com. 

  a.. Waterlight, Kathleen Jamie (Graywolf Press) 
  b.. Draft of a Letter, James Longenbach (University of Chicago Press) 
  c.. Eagle Pond, Donald Hall (Houghton Mifflin) 
  d.. Your Own Sylvia: A Verse Portrait of Sylvia Plath, Stephanie Hemphill (Knopf) 
  e.. Chanteuse, Catherine Daly (Factory School) 
  f.. Paper Craft, Catherine Daly (Moria) 
  g.. Ludlow, David Mason (Red Hen Press) 
  h.. The Wild Braid, Stanley Kunitz (W. W. Norton) 
  i.. In Search of Landscape, Helen Wickes (Sixteen Rivers Press) 
  j.. Today's Special Dish, Nina Lindsay (Sixteen Rivers Press) 
  k.. Theory of Orange, Rachel M. Simon (Pavement Saw Press) 
  l.. District and Circle (new in paperback), Seamus Heaney (Farrar, Straus and Giroux) 
  m.. Snow Part, Paul Celan, tr. Ian Fairley (Sheep Meadow Press) 
  n.. Hence This Cradle, tr. Ann Cefola (Otis Books) 
  o.. The Smallest Talk, Michael McFee (Bull City Press) 
  p.. The Ringing Ear: Black Poets Lean South, Nikky Finney, ed. (University of Georgia Press) 
  q.. The Highwayman's Wife, Lynnell Edwards (Red Hen Press) 
  r.. A Life Above Water, Doug Van Gundy (Red Hen Press) 
  s.. We Generous, Sebastian Matthews (Red Hen Press) 
  t.. Necessary Angels, Carolyn Maisel (Lost Horse Press) 
  u.. Retreats & Recognitions, Grace Bauer (Lost Horse Press) 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. This Week's Featured Poet

Monday - Don Share 
Tuesday - Meghan O'Rourke 
Wednesday - Julianna Baggott 
Thursday - Laure-Anne Bosselaar 
Friday - Philip White 
Saturday - Paige Ackerson-Kiely 
Sunday - Karin Gottshall 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Featured Poets April 16 - April 22, 2007

These and other past featured poets may be found in our archive: 

Monday - Mike Dockins 
Tuesday - David Harsent 
Wednesday - Janice N. Harrington 
Thursday - Fleda Brown 
Friday - Jeffrey Franklin 
Saturday - Moira Linehan 
Sunday - Allen Grossman


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Last Year's Featured Poets

These poems will be retired from our archive during the coming week.

Mong-Lan - "Keel of Earth's Axis" 
Margaret Holley - "Breakfast with Bonnard" 
A. R. Ammons - "Corsons Inlet" 
Seamus Heaney - "Pangur B?n" 
Terrance Hayes - "Woofer (When I Consider the African-American)"
Henri Cole - "Haircut" 
Mark Levine - "Willow" 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Poem From Last Year

Willow

Okay, willow, breathe on me
from the sunless opening in you-
crescent of gouges and breezes-slope
on which beetles stumble and are
flushed out-

Traffic, human traffic with its rinse
of promises and pauses is coming
for keeps.
And look there goes a swallow transplanting soil.
Me (let me think it)
I can sit on this bench longer than nature
and not know or crave a thing
about this bench, bottle cap dented into its plank

and initials scratched beside it, beside
the point: two raw letters forward to back just
as rare as any combination.
And now the date, plume of digits, daily
statistic.

This is behavior, willow, this
drone, it accompanied you once
in your grove of which
you have a memory-a lush one-don't you?
Was there no breath of you there?

I crossed the arc of your silhouette and lapped
your leaves' signature.
Things grew from you
beneath you in the patched grass
and not far away sat a man on
a bench.

You take it in or you don't.
You hide the sky or else.
Things lived in you.
You, stranger.


Mark Levine 
The Wilds
University of California Press




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 07:25:07 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:25:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joe Langland
References: <391DEEC9-8332-4F4D-8CF6-2AE89E05EB93@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <009101c7859a$0e12f650$f6a93452@ANNY>

My sympathy. You are right, I also have the impression that some of my teachers knew so many things by heart, the opposite of me. Maybe we should start memorizing again. 

  From: David Graham 

  Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 4:14 AM



  I recently learned of the death of Joseph Langland, a distinctive poet and quite a character.  He was a prof of mine in grad school way back in the 1970s.  


  Unless I missed something, I haven't seen this passing mentioned anywhere in the usual poetry news sources.  Joe never had the reputation and career that his early work might have forecast, but he was a fine poet nonetheless, a generous soul, and someone deserving of more attention than he got.  I'm sure all his former students will never forget his wonderful recitations--he had the entire Norton Anthology by heart, or so it seemed, and did not require much prompting to recite big swatches of Frost, Keats, Stevens, Thomas, Wordsworth, Dickinson, et al.  Nor will we forget his singing.


  From the UMass website:


  Obituary: Joseph Langland, noted poet, longtime professor

  Joseph Langland, 90, of Amherst, renowned poet and professor emeritus of English who founded the MFA program in Creative Writing, died April 9.

  Born in Spring Grove, Minn., he grew up on the family farm in northeastern Iowa, just outside of Decorah. He received an A.A. from Santa Ana College in California in 1936, and a B.A. and M.A. from the University of Iowa in 1940. He received an honorary doctorate from Luther College in 1975.

  He served in the European Theater during World War II, earning an EAME Theater Medal with four bronze stars, American Theater Medal, and a Victory Medal. He rose to the rank of captain and stayed on after the conflict to serve as part of the military government in Bavaria. 

  Prior to joining the English Department in 1959, he taught for 11 years at the University of Wyoming. He was a part-time instructor at the University of Iowa from 1946-48. He was also a visiting professor at numerous institutions, including the University of British Columbia; the University of Washington and San Francisco State College.

  He retired from the faculty in 1979.

  He was an influential voice in American poetry written after World War II and taught many who belong to the current generation of poets.

  He was the author of numerous books of poetry, including ?The Green Town? (1956), ?The Wheel of Summer? (1963), ?The Sacrifice Poems? (1975), ?Any Body's Song? (1980) and ?Selected Poems? (1991). 

  He received numerous honors and awards for his poetry, including a National Council of the Arts Award, the Melville Cane Award, an Amy Lowell Award and a Ford Faculty Fellowship. 

  He was featured on ABC-TV's ?Meet the Professor? in 1963.

  Many of his poems were set to music by composers, such as Morton Gould, Phillip Bezanson, Elliott Schwartz and Gerhard Krapf. 

  Several of his poems, most notably ?War,? commemorating the death of his brother Harold in World War II, have been translated into numerous languages and frequently anthologized. His poems have appeared in numerous magazines and journals, among them The New Yorker, Poetry, The Massachusetts Review and Northwest Review.

  With Paul Engle, he also co-edited the highly regarded collection ?Poet?s Choice? (1962) and with James Hall a collection of short stories titled ?The Short Story? (1956). For many years, he was also poetry editor of The Massachusetts Review.

  He was married for 53 years to Judith Wood, who died in 1997. 

  He leaves a sister, Lois Langland, of Thousand Oaks, Calif.; a brother, Walter, of Decorah, Iowa; two sons, Joseph Langland Jr. of Amherst and Paul Langland of New York City; a daughter, Elizabeth Langland, of Larchmont, N.Y.; two grandchildren and a great-grandchild.

  April 13, 2007.






  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ==========================================

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From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 07:31:53 2007
From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (agj)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:31:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Black Mountain 
Message-ID: <162046.8881.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Something to seek out if in the Midwest. 

Along with these:

http://jacketmagazine.com/31/rc-jorgensen.html

Such a shame, but I wonder if this kinda obliviousness
is a sign of our mere shabbiness.

Alex

--
"[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jorgensen_a at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 07:34:15 2007
From: jorgensen_a at yahoo.com (agj)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] OFFLIST - Fwd: Issue 3 of There Is Now Online
Message-ID: <330038.98357.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I think a wonderful publication!

As ever,
AlexJ/

> --- "Brown University LISTSERV Server (15.0)"
> <LISTSERV at listserv.brown.edu> wrote:
> 
> With work from Alexander Jorgensen, Cindy Emch,
Arpine Konyalian Grenier, Donald Illich, Ruth Lepson,
Warren Lloyd, Anh-Hoa Thi Nguyen, and Jeffrey
Schrader, as well as the landscape paintings of Arthur
Cadieux.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.therejournal.com/issue3.html
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> There
> > >> rewriting landscape
> > >> www.therejournal.com
> > >> therejournal at gmail.com
> > >>
> > 
> > > --
> > Unknown command - "--". Try HELP.
> > 
> > > "[H]e who leaps into the void owes no
> explanation
> > Unknown command - ""[H]E". Try HELP.
> > 
> > > to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)
> > Unknown command - "TO". Try HELP.
> > 
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > Unknown command -
> >
>
"__________________________________________________".
> > Try
> > HELP.
> > 
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Unknown command - "DO". Try HELP.
> > 
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > Unknown command - "TIRED". Try HELP.
> > 
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > Unknown command - "HTTP:". Try HELP.
> > 
> > Your message did not contain any command. Note
> that
> > lines starting with a
> > "greater than" sign ('>') are ignored.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> --
> "[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
> to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 


--
"[H]e who leaps into the void owes no explanation
to those who watch.? (Jean-Luc Godard)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 07:32:13 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:32:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] geranium
Message-ID: <009e01c7859b$59c164a0$f6a93452@ANNY>

here's to my geranium
thanks to the mild winter I left it out on the balcony
and now I can count 24-25 red blossoms and more to come!


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 07:42:57 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:42:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] apologies
References: <008201c78599$e0185510$f6a93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002601c7859c$8a346370$88ab3452@ANNY>

I just wanted to send Mark Levine's poem 
8. Poem From Last Year
  Willow

  Okay, willow, breathe on me
  from the sunless opening in you-
  crescent of gouges and breezes-slope
  on which beetles stumble and are
  flushed out-

  Traffic, human traffic with its rinse
  of promises and pauses is coming
  for keeps.
  And look there goes a swallow transplanting soil.
  Me (let me think it)
  I can sit on this bench longer than nature
  and not know or crave a thing
  about this bench, bottle cap dented into its plank

  and initials scratched beside it, beside
  the point: two raw letters forward to back just
  as rare as any combination.
  And now the date, plume of digits, daily
  statistic.

  This is behavior, willow, this
  drone, it accompanied you once
  in your grove of which
  you have a memory-a lush one-don't you?
  Was there no breath of you there?

  I crossed the arc of your silhouette and lapped
  your leaves' signature.
  Things grew from you
  beneath you in the patched grass
  and not far away sat a man on
  a bench.

  You take it in or you don't.
  You hide the sky or else.
  Things lived in you.
  You, stranger.


  Mark Levine 
  The Wilds
  University of California Press
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 09:37:57 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:37:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joe Langland
Message-ID: <c53.14a77924.335e10b5@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/23/2007 7:26:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

will  never forget his wonderful recitations--he had the entire Norton 
Anthology by  heart, or so it seemed, and did not require much prompting to recite 
big  swatches of Frost, Keats, Stevens, Thomas, Wordsworth, Dickinson, et al.   
Nor will we forget his singing.


Langland was still very active in mid and lat 1980s when I lived in  
Northampton MA (sister town to Amherst MA). I too recall being amazed at the  amount 
of poetry he could recite. 
 
He had a moving poem about a brother killed in  the WWII, as I recall. 
 
I also remember an amusing anecdote he told about Robert Frost (at his  
curmugeonly best). To the best of my recollection, it goes like this: Frost  was 
the guest for a student poetry reading at Amherst College. One of the  students, 
when it was his turn at the podium, gave a long introduction to his  poem, 
citing various references, concepts and allusions present in the poem. The  
young poet then proceeded to read a lyric of maybe 10 lines. Frost piped  up from 
the front row, saying "Son, you just told us a better poem than you  wrote."
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 09:40:47 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:40:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] If Poetry Journal Seeking Submissions 
Message-ID: <be1.116ed5a5.335e115f@aol.com>

 
_http://sketchofanastronaut.blogspot.com/2007/04/if-poetry-journal-seeking-sub
missions.html_ 
(http://sketchofanastronaut.blogspot.com/2007/04/if-poetry-journal-seeking-submissions.html) 
If Poetry Journal Seeking Submissions 
Hi,  I'm starting a new print poetry journal (actually it's zine sized). I'm 
looking  for submissions of poetry until July 31st, 2007. I plan on publishing 
the  journal by early December 2007 (maybe earlier I hope). What I'm looking 
for:  Here are some writers I love: Tony Hoagland, Dean Young, Jennifer Knox, 
Denise  Duhamel, Ben Lerner, Kim Addonizio, Bob Hicok. I like humorous and 
surrealistic  poetry, but with some heart and weight to it. I'm open to good 
formal poetry, as  well as free verse. I want poems with exciting ideas more than 
another perfectly  crafted poem that just lies there dead on the page.
If you would like to  submit 1-5 poems, please e-mail me at 
ifpoetryjournaleditor at gmail dot com. No  attachments, please put your poems in the body of 
your e-mail. Basic cover  letter preferred. No previously published poems. I'm 
aiming for 34 pages total  for the journal, maybe 48 if I can afford it. Each 
contributor will receive one  contributor's copy and be subject to the envy of 
all their peers. There are no  subscriptions as yet, as I don't know how 
often the journal will come out; I  plan on distributing the journal at readings, 
through Internet requests, and to  libraries, MFA programs, etc. The journal 
should, at least as far as basic  design goes, look like this (with different 
cover art, of course): 
_http://www.blehert.com/TheFederalPoets/Federal_Poet_Fall2006.pdf_ (http://www.blehert.com/TheFederalPoets/Federal_Poet_Fall2006.pdf) .
Thank you in advance for submitting work, if that's what you choose  to do.




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Apr 23 09:58:04 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:58:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
In-Reply-To: <003101c7857d$97503210$f6a93452@ANNY>
References: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com> <462BE8A3.6060208@opus40.org>
	<003101c7857d$97503210$f6a93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <462CBB6C.1060700@opus40.org>

I know. I would have liked to, too. So I chose one, although it could 
have been any of them. I certainly wasn't going to vote outside the family.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> More than one, I'd say, I tried to vote three, but I couldn't...
>
> From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:58 AM
>
>
>> Hmmmph. I wasn't nominated. But one of our little family here was...
>>
>> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>>> You can vote here...
>>> http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogosphere+Voting+Begins.html 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>> See what's free at AOL.com 
>>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tad Richards
>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 23 10:32:12 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:32:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
References: <cc5.fba4a92.335d3dfc@aol.com>
	<462BE8A3.6060208@opus40.org><003101c7857d$97503210$f6a93452@ANNY>
	<462CBB6C.1060700@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <004001c785b4$2eed2750$b3ec3652@ANNY>

certainly!

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:58 PM


>I know. I would have liked to, too. So I chose one, although it could have 
>been any of them. I certainly wasn't going to vote outside the family.
>
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> More than one, I'd say, I tried to vote three, but I couldn't...
>>
>> From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:58 AM
>>
>>
>>> Hmmmph. I wasn't nominated. But one of our little family here was...
>>>
>>> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>>>> You can vote here...
>>>> http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blogosphere+Voting+Begins.html
>>> -- 
>>> Tad Richards
>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From bmarcacci at gmail.com  Mon Apr 23 10:40:55 2007
From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:40:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
In-Reply-To: <462CBB6C.1060700@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <C2529217.6FB7%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

What maketh such an one?

That list of names is missing some names... alas, i thought the deadline was
at the end of the month and missed dropping my influential choice...

-- 
Bob Marcacci

Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it.
 - Michel de Montaigne



> From: TheOldMole <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:58:04 -0400
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate of Blogosphere
> 
> I know. I would have liked to, too. So I chose one, although it could
> have been any of them. I certainly wasn't going to vote outside the family.
> 
> Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> More than one, I'd say, I tried to vote three, but I couldn't...
>> 
>> From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:58 AM
>> 
>> 
>>> Hmmmph. I wasn't nominated. But one of our little family here was...
>>> 
>>> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>>>> You can vote here...
>>>> http://www.musecrafters.com/bloggingpoet/208/2007+Poet+Laureate+Of+The+Blog
>>>> osphere+Voting+Begins.html
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> See what's free at AOL.com
>>>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Tad Richards
>>> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
>>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 17:35:23 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:35:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] litmag sighting: mezzo cammin
Message-ID: <8C954066F6CD6E9-33C-1A36@WEBMAIL-RE19.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.mezzocammin.com/
 
Mezzo Cammin
Online journal of formalist poetry by women
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From rsillima at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 05:53:57 2007
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What's up with Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <720897.19184.qm@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT POSTS

Cole Swensen
and The Glass Age

3 focused anthologies ???

For the Time-Being:
The Bootstrap Book of Poetic Journals,

Third Rail:
The Poetry of Rock and Roll,

Poets on Painters

A poem by Nancy Shaw
(1962-2007)

Recently Received

The tragedy at Virginia Tech

Daily Sonnets
by Laynie Browne

Since I Moved In
by Tim Peterson

Key Bridge
by Ken Rumble

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr 24 12:34:54 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:34:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
Message-ID: <003001c7868e$80270f70$39aa3452@ANNY>

http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/

In Praise of Difficult Poetry

by Robert Pinsky

This time, let's take up a serious issue: the stupid and defeatist idea that poetry, especially modern or contemporary poetry, ought to be less "difficult." Should poets write in ways that are more genial, simple, and folksy, like the now-unreadable work of Edgar Guest (1888-1959)? Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us-and maybe, in part, because they are difficult? 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Apr 24 13:15:27 2007
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:15:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
Message-ID: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org>

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Apr 24 18:20:36 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:20:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Beckett
Message-ID: <00a001c786be$c8bd8400$39aa3452@ANNY>

reviewed by Carlos Hiraldo:
http://jacketmagazine.com/33/hiraldo-beckett.shtml


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 21:44:32 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:44:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org>
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>

Tad, I'm not certain what Pinsky is saying is helpful. It's a slight to 99% of the poetry that is written in the world. (I was just at an open mike at a local library...so it's all too clear in my mind). Secondly, it's a likely swipe at Kooser and his ilk of poetry (folksy). But, and most importantly, it's a way for Pinsky, whom I I like and admire in may ways, to prop up 'academic difficulty'...which is different than difficulty proper. Academic difficulty means You don't read enough to get the all the references and allusions I've peppered my poem with. 
Finnegan 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry


Worth saying. I often quote Ciardi, from the intro to "How Does a Poem Mean?" to my students, with his analogy to a high school fottball team.



On Tue Apr 24 12:34 , 'Anny Ballardini' sent:


http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/
In Praise of Difficult Poetry
by Robert Pinsky
This time, let's take up a serious issue: the stupid and defeatist idea that poetry, especially modern or contemporary poetry, ought to be less "difficult." Should poets write in ways that are more genial, simple, and folksy, like the now-unreadable work of Edgar Guest (1888-1959)? Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in part, because they are difficult? 



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 


= 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Apr 24 21:18:51 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:18:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org>
	<8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>



On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:44 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days  
> when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio  
> show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people  
> still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate  
> contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still  
> read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out,  
> because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in part, because  
> they are difficult?

> --Robert Pinsky
===============================

If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace  
Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the  
terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may have  
to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different terms, Frost  
(accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is better, and is  
difficulty per se the deciding factor?

There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One brand,  
as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its own  
challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's "The  
Road Not Taken."

Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of  
Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty, and  
I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is a  
lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more difficult in  
many ways than Bishop, but is she better?

As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid, accessible,  
and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.

Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid, pretentious,  
affected, and irritating.

I also admire Pinsky, and his full Slate article is well worth  
reading, especially for his remarks on a range of individual poems  
quoted.  (http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/)

His point isn't well represented by the snippet quoted above.  But  
let us praise the delights of challenging poetry without putting  
lumping all accessible stuff into the Edgar Guest category. . . .



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================




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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 24 22:42:27 2007
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:42:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org>
	<8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
	<1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1230C3FC-B153-494F-B035-A6736D4B7911@earthlink.net>


Some people say (on both 'sides') say that 'easy' poetry can be much  
more difficult to write
than 'difficult' poetry...
and quite a few of the defenses of 'difficult' poetry are that it  
easier to write
quite a few of the criticisms of it ('difficult' poetry) too.

Did Dogberry say comparisons are odorous? Or was it odious?
(i can smell my nose and call it a rose)...

Dear reader, when you read my poetry, do you think it's too easy or  
too difficult, both, or neither,
or "just right' (like goldilocks)?
And, dear reader, do we love each other or are we just going through  
the motions?
And, dear reader, just who or what are you anyway?

That's my sortie and I'm sticking to it...
Okay, back to listening to Kevin Tillman at the "Accuracy Of  
Battlefield Information" hearings.
I can't tell if he's "easy" or "difficult" to listen to, but I guess  
it don't matter because
exposing lies isn't really supposed to be a function of easy or  
difficult poetry--
but can news really stay news?
(and our sideshow be the center and the periphery of it all)

Chris


On Apr 24, 2007, at 6:18 PM, David Graham wrote:

>
>
> On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:44 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the  
>> days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly  
>> radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day  
>> people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's  
>> approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens.  
>> People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they  
>> don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in  
>> part, because they are difficult?
>
>> --Robert Pinsky
> ===============================
>
> If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace  
> Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the  
> terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may have  
> to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different terms,  
> Frost (accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is better, and  
> is difficulty per se the deciding factor?
>
> There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One brand,  
> as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its own  
> challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's "The  
> Road Not Taken."
>
> Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of  
> Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty,  
> and I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is a  
> lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more difficult  
> in many ways than Bishop, but is she better?
>
> As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid,  
> accessible, and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.
>
> Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid,  
> pretentious, affected, and irritating.
>
> I also admire Pinsky, and his full Slate article is well worth  
> reading, especially for his remarks on a range of individual poems  
> quoted.  (http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/)
>
> His point isn't well represented by the snippet quoted above.  But  
> let us praise the delights of challenging poetry without putting  
> lumping all accessible stuff into the Edgar Guest category. . . .
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Apr 24 22:43:57 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:43:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
Message-ID: <c5f.124ccabb.33601a6d@cs.com>

All I can add to this discussion is that today's sophomore's have real 
trouble understanding something like Bryant's "The Yellow Violet."     
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 25 04:16:14 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:16:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org><8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
	<1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002e01c78711$fe4de4e0$228e3052@ANNY>

I have a weak spot for Pinsky. I invited him to the Corner and he contributed with generosity. When I sent out the update with the usual 10-15 new poets he was the only one to answer back with an incredible enthusiasm to thank me again. To which I sent him a mail in which I said something like this:
You, the most famous one, are the only one to send me another thank you. I was very moved. 
He will somehow be a hero for me for a long time now. 
Besides his translation of the Comedy. I would never venture into something like that!

  From: David Graham 
   Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:18 AM

  On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:44 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:


    Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in part, because they are difficult?



    --Robert Pinsky
  ===============================


  If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may have to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different terms, Frost (accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is better, and is difficulty per se the deciding factor?  


  There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One brand, as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its own challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's "The Road Not Taken."  


  Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty, and I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is a lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more difficult in many ways than Bishop, but is she better?  


  As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid, accessible, and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.  


  Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid, pretentious, affected, and irritating.  


  I also admire Pinsky, and his full Slate article is well worth reading, especially for his remarks on a range of individual poems quoted.  (http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/) 


  His point isn't well represented by the snippet quoted above.  But let us praise the delights of challenging poetry without putting lumping all accessible stuff into the Edgar Guest category. . . .






  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ==========================================
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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 05:55:10 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:55:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org><8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
	<1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002601c7871f$d124bc10$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

Pinsky writes:
"Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot)"

So nowadays selling a million copies of a book of poems is not a lot?

Just wonderin'

lsg
 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:18 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry






  On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:44 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:


    Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in part, because they are difficult?



    --Robert Pinsky
  ===============================


  If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may have to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different terms, Frost (accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is better, and is difficulty per se the deciding factor?  


  There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One brand, as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its own challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's "The Road Not Taken."  


  Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty, and I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is a lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more difficult in many ways than Bishop, but is she better?  


  As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid, accessible, and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.  


  Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid, pretentious, affected, and irritating.  


  I also admire Pinsky, and his full Slate article is well worth reading, especially for his remarks on a range of individual poems quoted.  (http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/) 


  His point isn't well represented by the snippet quoted above.  But let us praise the delights of challenging poetry without putting lumping all accessible stuff into the Edgar Guest category. . . .






  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 25 06:21:52 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:21:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
References: <c5f.124ccabb.33601a6d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <009601c78723$8aeb9ad0$228e3052@ANNY>

Yes, I also noticed that the accent of the review was on "education" and "motivation" to reading and studying rather than information.
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:43 AM


  All I can add to this discussion is that today's sophomore's have real trouble understanding something like Bryant's "The Yellow Violet."  
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 06:32:09 2007
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:32:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <003001c7868e$80270f70$39aa3452@ANNY>
References: <003001c7868e$80270f70$39aa3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <fde503480704250332q3917eab7wb414125527f6265d@mail.gmail.com>

When did the difficulty debate start? Or has there always been this
under-tow against some sorts of poetry?

Allusiveness hasn't always - and I don't think is - confined to
academia. Donne - he of the quietude - wasn't he allusive? Eliot?
Pound? Not all of them require you to know what they're alluding to
... I think.

I dunno. I disagree with the stereotypes being bandied about here.

Roger
On 4/24/07, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/
>
> In Praise of Difficult Poetry
>
> by Robert Pinsky
>
> This time, let's take up a serious issue: the stupid and defeatist idea that
> poetry, especially modern or contemporary poetry, ought to be less
> "difficult." Should poets write in ways that are more genial, simple, and
> folksy, like the now-unreadable work of Edgar Guest (1888-1959)? Guest's
> Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million
> copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's
> popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar,
> demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and
> Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because
> they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us?and maybe, in part,
> because they are difficult?
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Apr 25 07:37:04 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:37:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org><8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>
	1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu
Message-ID: <001301c7872e$15285a80$d3fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Guest's Heap o' Livin' sold more than a million copies (in the days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens. People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe, in part, because they are difficult?



    --Robert Pinsky
  ===============================


  If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may have to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different terms, Frost (accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is better, and is difficulty per se the deciding factor?  


  There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One brand, as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its own challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's "The Road Not Taken."  


  Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty, and I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is a lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more difficult in many ways than Bishop, but is she better?  


  As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid, accessible, and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.  


  Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid, pretentious, affected, and irritating.  

  Here's a shocker for you.  I completely agree with David on this.  A poem's difficulty, of which there are various kinds, of lack of difficulty has nothing to do with its value.  But a poem must say or do something new, in however a small way, to be worth reading.  Which is only to say that poems shouldn't do nothing but repeat other poems.

  The problem is the fools on both sides who call for nothing but difficulty or simplicity.

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 08:56:02 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:56:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
Message-ID: <ccc.ffd3235.3360a9e2@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/25/2007 4:16:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

I have a weak spot for Pinsky. I invited him to  the Corner and he 
contributed with generosity. When I sent out the update with  the usual 10-15 new poets 
he was the only one to answer back with an  incredible enthusiasm to thank me 
again. To which I sent him a mail in which I  said something like this:
You, the most famous one, are the only one to  send me another thank you. I 
was very moved. 
He will somehow be a hero for me for a long time  now. 
Besides his translation of the Comedy. I would  never venture into something 
like that!

 




Pinsky, from my little association with him, is very generous. And a very  
fine poet too. 
 
I need to read the article before commenting more on what he's defending  
(and whether it's in 
need of defending). I have no problem with difficult poetry (of course I've  
been reading poetry
and criticism for 25 years, so let's hope so), but I think there a lot a  
gradations 
and types of difficulty (Bob, could probably put together a taxonomy  of 
difficulty.)
 
I think I was really rubbed the wrong way by the 'folksy' attribution.  And, 
paradoxically the sometimes simpler the poem the more apt we are to read  into 
it, to find things that may or may not be there, may or may not have been  
intended in the composition.  
 
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 08:57:13 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:57:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fenton wins Queen's Gold
Message-ID: <c3e.12cd1857.3360aa29@aol.com>

James Fenton wins poetry prize
The Associated Press
 
LONDON -- English poet and journalist James Fenton has been awarded the  2007 
Queen's Gold Medal for Poetry.
 
Fenton, 57, is a former professor of poetry at Oxford University whose  
volumes include "The Memory of War," "Children in Exile," "Out of Danger" and  the 
anthology "Selected Poems."
 
One of Britain's best-known poets, Fenton covered the Vietnam War as a  
foreign correspondent - a period that inspired much of his early verse - and has  
also worked as a political journalist and theater critic.
 
He will receive his medal from Queen Elizabeth II this summer, Buckingham  
Palace said Monday.
 
The monarch's gold medal was founded in 1933 by the queen's grandfather,  
King George V. The prize, which does not carry a cash award, is given to a poet  
from Britain or the Commonwealth of its former colonies. The winner - chosen 
by  a panel of "eminent men and women of letters" and approved by the monarch - 
is  traditionally announced April 23, which is believed to be the birthday of 
 William Shakespeare.
 
Previous winners include W.H. Auden, John Betjeman, Robert Graves, Stevie  
Smith, Ted Hughes and Derek Walcott.




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Apr 25 09:14:36 2007
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:14:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <ccc.ffd3235.3360a9e2@aol.com>
References: <ccc.ffd3235.3360a9e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <230347F5-B916-4EB8-A4D2-30BE3F135A58@earthlink.net>

Once the poem is written and out there, only the
intention(s) of the reader(s) really matter.

Hal

"Way down the deserted street, I thought I saw
   a bus which, with luck, might get me out of
   this sentence . . ."
                              --Rosmarie Waldrop

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Apr 25, 2007, at 7:56 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> I think I was really rubbed the wrong way by the 'folksy'  
> attribution. And, paradoxically the sometimes simpler the poem the  
> more apt we are to read into it, to find things that may or may not  
> be there, may or may not have been intended in the composition.
>
> Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Apr 25 08:50:16 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:50:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
References: <462DEBF10200007C0002737D@groupwise.georgiasouthern.edu>
Message-ID: <FC65B868-5DED-4744-BDCB-FD5E01AD1FED@ripon.edu>

>
We interrupt this difficult & serious discussion to bring you a  
hilarious bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn & Stephen Colbert conduct a  
smack-down meta-free-phor-all on Comedy Central.

None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.



> http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee- 
> to-a-summer-day
>




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================




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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Apr 25 10:08:04 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:08:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <c5f.124ccabb.33601a6d@cs.com>
References: <c5f.124ccabb.33601a6d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <462F60C4.4060408@opus40.org>

It doesn't even take poetry. I was teaching "The Young Lions" one 
semester and my students -- most of them in the class -- complained that 
it was too difficult to follow the switching between three stories. I 
pointed out that high school dropouts have no problem following much 
more complicated shifting story lines in soap operas.

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> All I can add to this discussion is that today's sophomore's have real 
> trouble understanding something like Bryant's "The Yellow Violet." 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 25 10:15:29 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:15:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
References: <462DEBF10200007C0002737D@groupwise.georgiasouthern.edu>
	<FC65B868-5DED-4744-BDCB-FD5E01AD1FED@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00fc01c78744$2dbff830$228e3052@ANNY>

:-)
I cannot watch the movie. There is a big question mark on the screen, but I can watch YouTube movies. Is there anyone who solved a similar problem?
Thanks, Anny
  From: David Graham 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:50 PM




  We interrupt this difficult & serious discussion to bring you a hilarious bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn & Stephen Colbert conduct a smack-down meta-free-phor-all on Comedy Central.


  None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.







    http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-summer-day










  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ==========================================
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Apr 25 10:20:11 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:20:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <002e01c78711$fe4de4e0$228e3052@ANNY>
References: <2138.1177434927@opus40.org><8C954F267D2BEC5-1688-771A@FWM-M10.sysops.aol.com>	<1A142BFB-310E-4BEA-B180-C37A5FDDE9D7@ripon.edu>
	<002e01c78711$fe4de4e0$228e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <462F639B.3090604@opus40.org>

That's a great story -- I'm glad to hear it of Pinsky.

Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I have a weak spot for Pinsky. I invited him to the Corner and he 
> contributed with generosity. When I sent out the update with the usual 
> 10-15 new poets he was the only one to answer back with an incredible 
> enthusiasm to thank me again. To which I sent him a mail in which I 
> said something like this:
> You, the most famous one, are the only one to send me another thank 
> you. I was very moved.
> He will somehow be a hero for me for a long time now.
> Besides his translation of the Comedy. I would never venture into 
> something like that!
>
>      
>     *From:* David Graham <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>      *Sent:* Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:18 AM
>      
>     On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:44 PM, jforjames at aol.com
>     <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>     Guest's /Heap o' Livin'/ sold more than a million copies (in the
>>     days when a million copies was a lot), and he had his own weekly
>>     radio show. But Guest's popularity is history, while every day
>>     people still read the peculiar, demanding poems of Guest's
>>     approximate contemporaries Marianne Moore and Wallace Stevens.
>>     People still read the poems of Moore and Stevens because they
>>     don't wear out, because they surprise and entice us??and maybe,
>>     in part, because they are difficult?
>
>>     --Robert Pinsky
>     ===============================
>
>     If the only choice we have is between Edgar Guest and Wallace
>     Stevens, well, that's a stacked deck from the start.  Change the
>     terms, say, to Langston Hughes v. Wallace Stevens, and you may
>     have to ponder a bit more deeply.  Or, to put it in different
>     terms, Frost (accessible) v. Hart Crane (difficult):  who is
>     better, and is difficulty per se the deciding factor?  
>
>     There is difficulty and there is difficulty, of course.  One
>     brand, as I've often noted, is the difficulty that disguises its
>     own challenge under a genial accessible surface, such as Frost's
>     "The Road Not Taken."  
>
>     Is Whitman difficult?  Well, yes and no.  Same for a lot of
>     Williams.  Yeats runs the gamut from simple to extremely knotty,
>     and I'm not ready to say that "Crazy Jane Talks to the Bishop" is
>     a lesser poem than "Vacillation."  Moore's certainly more
>     difficult in many ways than Bishop, but is she better?  
>
>     As Langston Hughes reminds us, there is perfectly lucid,
>     accessible, and even "easy" poetry that is quite wonderful.  
>
>     Some difficult poetry is splendid, and a lot is turgid,
>     pretentious, affected, and irritating.  
>
>     I also admire Pinsky, and his full Slate article is well worth
>     reading, especially for his remarks on a range of individual poems
>     quoted.  (http://www.slate.com/id/2164823/) 
>
>     His point isn't well represented by the snippet quoted above.  But
>     let us praise the delights of challenging poetry without putting
>     lumping all accessible stuff into the Edgar Guest category. . . .
>
>
>
>     ========================================
>     David Graham
>     grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>     Home Page:
>     http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>     Poetry Library:
>     http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>     ==========================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 25 10:31:50 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:31:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
References: <c5f.124ccabb.33601a6d@cs.com> <462F60C4.4060408@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <010d01c78746$76ad2e30$228e3052@ANNY>

your comment is something, 

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:08 PM


> It doesn't even take poetry. I was teaching "The Young Lions" one 
> semester and my students -- most of them in the class -- complained that 
> it was too difficult to follow the switching between three stories. I 
> pointed out that high school dropouts have no problem following much 
> more complicated shifting story lines in soap operas.
> 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>> All I can add to this discussion is that today's sophomore's have real 
>> trouble understanding something like Bryant's "The Yellow Violet." 
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tad Richards
> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/




From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 10:54:38 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:54:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
References: <462DEBF10200007C0002737D@groupwise.georgiasouthern.edu><FC65B868-5DED-4744-BDCB-FD5E01AD1FED@ripon.edu>
	<00fc01c78744$2dbff830$228e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002a01c78749$a6162520$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

I can't hear it but I can see it.

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert


  :-)
  I cannot watch the movie. There is a big question mark on the screen, but I can watch YouTube movies. Is there anyone who solved a similar problem?
  Thanks, Anny
    From: David Graham 
    Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:50 PM




    We interrupt this difficult & serious discussion to bring you a hilarious bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn & Stephen Colbert conduct a smack-down meta-free-phor-all on Comedy Central. 


    None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.







      http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-summer-day










    ========================================
    David Graham
    grahamd at ripon.edu
    Home Page:
    http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
    Poetry Library:
    http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
    ==========================================


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 11:13:12 2007
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:13:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
In-Reply-To: <002a01c78749$a6162520$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
References: <462DEBF10200007C0002737D@groupwise.georgiasouthern.edu>
	<FC65B868-5DED-4744-BDCB-FD5E01AD1FED@ripon.edu>
	<00fc01c78744$2dbff830$228e3052@ANNY>
	<002a01c78749$a6162520$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0704250813h76b0bb9exb9295bae1c8764ac@mail.gmail.com>

Try this:
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=85568

Jeff Newberry

On 4/25/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I can't hear it but I can see it.
>
> lsg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:15 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
>
> :-)
> I cannot watch the movie. There is a big question mark on the screen, but
> I can watch YouTube movies. Is there anyone who solved a similar problem?
> Thanks, Anny
>
> *From:* David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:50 PM
>
>
> We interrupt this difficult & serious discussion to bring you a hilarious
> bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn & Stephen Colbert conduct a smack-down
> meta-free-phor-all on Comedy Central.
> None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.
>
>
>
>
> http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-summer-day
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
"Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects,
longer than knowing even wonders."
?William Faulkner, Light in August


http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Apr 25 11:13:49 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:13:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thrusting at Auden
Message-ID: <462F702D.4000001@opus40.org>

Edward Albee 
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/edward_albee/index.html?inline=nyt-per> 
likes to tell about the time when, at 18, having fled his adoptive 
parents? stiflingly conservative household to begin a more expansive 
self-education in Greenwich Village, he knocked on W. H. Auden?s door. 
Mr. Albee, frequently referred to as America?s greatest living 
playwright, thought himself a poet then.

?I thrust my poems in his hand and said, ?I?ll be back in a week,? and 
then I ran,? he recalled. ?A week later I showed up, and he invited me 
in. He spent two hours talking about my poems.?

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Apr 25 11:14:26 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:14:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
In-Reply-To: <00fc01c78744$2dbff830$228e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <C254DA82.FB6E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

The sorrows of computer compataility.  I dunno.

That link was to a site called VideoSift.  Maybe you'd have better luck on
YouTube, which seems to have the same clip available.  Trust me, it's really
worth watching!


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=penn+colbert&search=Search


============

On 4/25/07 9:15 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> :-)
> I cannot watch the movie. There is a big question mark on the screen, but I
> can watch YouTube movies. Is there anyone who solved a similar problem?
> Thanks, Anny
>>  
>> From:  David Graham <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>  
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:50  PM
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>> 
>> We interrupt this difficult &  serious discussion to bring you a hilarious
>> bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn  & Stephen Colbert conduct a smack-down
>> meta-free-phor-all on Comedy  Central.
>> 
>>  
>> None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>> http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-sum
>>> mer-day 
>>> <http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-su
>>> mmer-day> 
>>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> ========================================
>>  
>> David Graham
>>  
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>  
>> Home Page:
>>  
>> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>  
>> Poetry Library:
>>  
>> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>  
>> ==========================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Apr 25 11:42:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:42:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
References: <C254DA82.FB6E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <014501c78750$4e932cb0$228e3052@ANNY>

Pinsky Penn ColbertI got it! I would want it to continue at least another... say couple of hours (?)
  From: David Graham 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:14 PM


  The sorrows of computer compataility.  I dunno.  

  That link was to a site called VideoSift.  Maybe you'd have better luck on YouTube, which seems to have the same clip available.  Trust me, it's really worth watching!


  http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=penn+colbert&search=Search




      David Graham
       
      grahamd at ripon.edu
       
      Home Page:
       
      http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
       
      Poetry Library:
       
      http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
       
      ==========================================


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From suelin7184 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 13:05:12 2007
From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert
References: <462DEBF10200007C0002737D@groupwise.georgiasouthern.edu><FC65B868-5DED-4744-BDCB-FD5E01AD1FED@ripon.edu><00fc01c78744$2dbff830$228e3052@ANNY><002a01c78749$a6162520$0201a8c0@LindaSue>
	<731bb17a0704250813h76b0bb9exb9295bae1c8764ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c7875b$e3eef310$0201a8c0@LindaSue>

thanks, but still can't hear it

lsg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert


  Try this:  http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=85568

  Jeff Newberry


  On 4/25/07, Linda Sue Grimes <suelin7184 at gmail.com> wrote:
    I can't hear it but I can see it.

    lsg
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:15 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pinsky Penn Colbert


      :-)
      I cannot watch the movie. There is a big question mark on the screen, but I can watch YouTube movies. Is there anyone who solved a similar problem?
      Thanks, Anny
        From: David Graham 
        Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:50 PM




        We interrupt this difficult & serious discussion to bring you a hilarious bit of nonsense.  Sean Penn & Stephen Colbert conduct a smack-down meta-free-phor-all on Comedy Central. 


        None other than our old pal Robert Pinsky, bless his heart, moderates.







          http://www.videosift.com/video/Meta-Free-Phor-All-Shall-I-nail-thee-to-a-summer-day










        ========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





  -- 
  "Memory believes before knowing remembers.  Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." 
  ?William Faulkner, Light in August


  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Apr 25 13:29:50 2007
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:29:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] difficult poetry
References: <003001c7868e$80270f70$39aa3452@ANNY>
	<fde503480704250332q3917eab7wb414125527f6265d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301c7875f$54b1cd90$6400a8c0@PC232542321673>

Roger mentions Donne, and writes:


> When did the difficulty debate start? Or has there always been this
> under-tow against some sorts of poetry?

Well, at least as fall back as the 16thC.  Ben Jonson (in the course of his 
drunken revelations to Drummond of Hawthorndon) alleged that for not being 
understood, John Donne would perish.

Generally, there was a populist objection to difficult poetry at the time --  
mostly against the metaphysicals, but beyond, as Jonson himself was accused 
of being gratuitously difficult on occasion.  The term of choice to slag-off 
difficult poetry then was to describe it as "strong lined".

Plus ca change ...

Robin 




From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 13:41:28 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:41:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
In-Reply-To: <230347F5-B916-4EB8-A4D2-30BE3F135A58@earthlink.net>
References: <ccc.ffd3235.3360a9e2@aol.com>
	<230347F5-B916-4EB8-A4D2-30BE3F135A58@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8C9557816B218C2-1ACC-D9C1@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com>

True, Hal, but the writer may still care about 
'misreadings'. Some writers care more than othersl about
how their work is read and how it makes it way into the 
minds of the public, and the critical reception of the work. 
 
A writer, while alive, can change 
subsequent published versions as well.
Finnegan 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: halvard at earthlink.net
Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry


Once the poem is written and out there, only the  
intention(s) of the reader(s) really matter. 


Hal


"Way down the deserted street, I thought I saw
  a bus which, with luck, might get me out of
  this sentence . . ."
                             --Rosmarie Waldrop


Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org 


On Apr 25, 2007, at 7:56 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:


I think I was really rubbed the wrong way by the 'folksy' attribution. And, paradoxically the sometimes simpler the poem the more apt we are to read into it, to find things that may or may not be there, may or may not have been intended in the composition.  
 
Finnegan
= 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 14:09:42 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:09:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chronicle of the British Poetry Wars
Message-ID: <8C9557C08128974-18CC-18@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/sscp/1844712478.htm
Peter Barry
Poetry Wars
British Poetry of the 1970s and the Battle of Earls Court
Foreword by Andrew Motion
 
Main description:  Poetry Wars is an account of the six-year battle at the National Poetry Society during the 1970s when this highly conservative institution and its journal Poetry Review were taken over by radical poets. The story is told from primary sources, including the Arts Council?s Records at the Victoria & Albert Museum, the Eric Mottram Archive at King's College London, and the Barry MacSweeney Collection at Newcastle University, and from contemporary newspaper accounts. 
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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From edmundhardy at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 18:55:05 2007
From: edmundhardy at hotmail.com (Edmund Hardy)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:55:05 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Intercapillary Space" April 
In-Reply-To: <200704021600.l32G04cQ019794@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY139-F88C3C9643E1E847C73DFCBA490@phx.gbl>


"Intercapillary Space" April
http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2007/04/new-at-intercapillary-space.html


POEMS

[#] Peter Finch: 'Old' and 'Young'

[#] Mark Dickinson: from 'The Speed of Clouds'

[#] Simon Turner: 'La Citt? Nuova: a construction for Antonio Sant'Elia' and 
'To Be Bewildered'

[#] Andrew Nightingale: from 'Maps of my Hermetic Future'



POEM SEQUENCES

[#] Lawrence Upton: NAMING for Lucio Agra

[#] Peter Hughes: Berlioz Parts 5 & 6



ESSAYS

[#] Jennifer Cooke: Warring Inscriptions: J. H. Prynne's To Pollen

[#] Laura Steele: Gardens of this Star: Three new Mallarm? messengers



BOOK REVIEWS

[#] Alice Notley's Coming After

[#] Charles Boyle's The Age of Cardboard and String

[#] Edmund Hardy on Kenneth Koch's Collected Poems

[#] Michael Peverett on Richard Makin's St Leonards

[#] Andy Brown's anthology The Allotment

[#] P. Inman's m'event

[#] John Aubrey, Some Verses edited from the MS

[#] Melissa Flores-B?rquez: 'Petrol In Search of Flame: J. H. Prynne's 
Unanswering Rational Shore'



SHORT ESSAYS ON ALEXANDER POPE BY DIVERSE HANDS

[#] Review of Alexander Pope and John Arbuthnot, Memoirs of the 
Extraordinary Life, Works and Discoveries of Martinus Scriblerus

[#] Close reading about the Lady who P---st herself

[#] Superfluous Health: The Essay on Man

[#] A Short Interview With Alexander Pope

[#] A Note in the Margin of 'Windsor-Forest'

_________________________________________________________________
Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes.  
http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr 26 07:53:30 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:53:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost
Message-ID: <000a01c787f9$82a38730$38a93252@ANNY>

On About.com : Poetry
A Robert Frost poem: "War thoughts at home"
http://glclk.about.com/?zi=12/3aHu




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From ccooley at overdomain.com  Thu Apr 26 18:08:53 2007
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:08:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky
In-Reply-To: <200704251216.l3PCGjit008007@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704251216.l3PCGjit008007@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <549B1973-714A-4B03-A41D-10B5F3890588@overdomain.com>

Slightly off the 'difficult poetry' topic...

Anny when you say "his translation of the Comedy", you mean of  
_Inferno_, right?  He hasn't translated _Purgatorio_ or _Paradiso_  
far as I know, but I've been out of the US for a while now.  If he  
did translate the others I'd be interested... his rhyme scheme in the  
first helped me in my book _Ester_.

Cris

> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:16:14 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: difficult poetry
>
> I have a weak spot for Pinsky. I invited him to the Corner and he  
> contributed with generosity. When I sent out the update with the  
> usual 10-15 new poets he was the only one to answer back with an  
> incredible enthusiasm to thank me again. To which I sent him a mail  
> in which I said something like this:
> You, the most famous one, are the only one to send me another thank  
> you. I was very moved.
> He will somehow be a hero for me for a long time now.
> Besides his translation of the Comedy. I would never venture into  
> something like that!



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Apr 26 18:29:37 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:29:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky
References: <200704251216.l3PCGjit008007@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<549B1973-714A-4B03-A41D-10B5F3890588@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c78852$60098180$61af3252@ANNY>

You are right, Cris, only (?) the Inferno, from his bio on the Corner:

[...] The Inferno of Dante (1994), which received the Los Angeles Times Book Prize and the Harold Morton Landon Translation Award, and The Separate Notebooks by Czeslaw Milosz (with Renata Gorczynski and Robert Hass); and a computerized novel, Mindwheel (1985). 

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=213



From: "Crisman Cooley" <ccooley at overdomain.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 12:08 AM


> Slightly off the 'difficult poetry' topic...
> 
> Anny when you say "his translation of the Comedy", you mean of  
> _Inferno_, right?  He hasn't translated _Purgatorio_ or _Paradiso_  
> far as I know, but I've been out of the US for a while now.  If he  
> did translate the others I'd be interested... his rhyme scheme in the  
> first helped me in my book _Ester_.
> 
> Cris
> 
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From bmarcacci at gmail.com  Thu Apr 26 19:07:56 2007
From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:07:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Audio Poetry: i-outlaw 2.4 featuring Catherine Daly
Message-ID: <C256FD6C.71F3%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

It's new poetry. Difficulty levels have been adjusted for your listening
pleasure.

Hosted by Bob Marcacci and produced by Josh Hinck, i-outlaw Episode 2.4
<http://i-outlaw.blogspot.com/> features the poetry and ruminations of
Catherine Daly, original music by Junkbox, and additional fine poetry by:

- Daniel Abdal-Hayy Moore
- Linda Benninghoff
- John Sakkis
- Peggy Eldridge-Love
- Jordan Stempleman
- Kaya Oakes
- Miranda Gaw
- Andrew Lundwall
- Larissa Shmailo

Always looking to listen to your poetry... Spread the word far and wide.
Don't forget to enter our contest to win a free book of poetry! Listen now
and find out how...

-- 
Bob Marcacci
<http://marcacci.blogspot.com>

                  ,.
                 (\(\)
 ,_              ;  o >
  {`-.          /  (_)
  `={\`-._____/`   |
   `-{ /    -=`\   |
    `={  -= = _/   /
       `\  .-'   /`
        {`-,__.'===,_
        //`        `\\
 jgs   //
      `\=





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Apr 27 04:55:18 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:55:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kenneth Slessor Prize 
Message-ID: <001c01c788a9$c7d0f800$c8d63152@ANNY>

sent by Andrew Burke to the Poetry Etc List:

In Australia there is a major poetry prize, Kenneth Slessor Prize for
poetry ($15,000) - and here are the nominees:




Robert Adamson, The Goldfinches of Baghdad (Flood Editions)

This is one of the strongest collections ever from an extremely fine poet.
Three sections - one mainly derived from the Orpheus and Eurydice myth,
one built around Australian birds in the form of meditations and
contemporary fables, the last built mainly around letters, friendships and
the work of other artists - are composed together to offer a poetry which
is mythic in tendency and at the same time highly intimate and lyrical.
The Goldfinches of Baghdad reflects the work of a poet engaged in a
profound work of Australian lyricism and able to look firmly at the
complexities of the contemporary world.



Laurie Duggan, The Passenger ( University of Queensland Press)

The Passenger offers the companionable pleasure of Laurie Duggan as deft
poetic guide through a series of minimalist yet richly detailed vignettes.
His characteristically casual and elegant 'field notes' explore the
'disposition of things' with throw-away mastery. As he transits from one
scene to another we are his willing passengers, experiencing with him the
unassuming insouciance and comic lightness of an uncommon poetic
intelligence even as he practises the art of almost disappearing into 'a
gap between radiances'. These poems are spare but never cramped, giving
the reader 'a shaped and worked landscape/where colour is no accident'.



Les Murray, The Biplane Houses (Black Inc.)

The Biplane Houses demonstrates how well Les Murray has sustained his work
as a poet over many volumes and many years. The Biplane Houses has all of
Murray 's extraordinary verbal energy, his great range of local insight
and his daring flashes of wit and inventiveness. This book is classic
Murray distilled into the short poem. It is a collection of the finest
late pickings from a poet whose work is justly recognized as a major
contribution to contemporary poetry in English.



John Tranter, Urban Myths: 210 Poems ( University of Queensland Press)

This generous collection of 210 poems takes in the whole of John Tranter's
dazzling career including fifty new and uncollected poems as virtuosic as
anything that precedes them. Combining technical mastery with a restless,
experimental drive, Tranter deals in 'popular mysteries' and iconic
characters; the irony of the everyday and 'the vernacular of the shopping
channel'. His love affair with poetic forms and the resources of speech
energizes his work and stimulates his readers, counterbalancing 'grief, in
small allotments' with the 'gift factory' of poetic invention and the
sheer exuberance of language.



Simon West, First Names (Puncher and Wattmann)

In a year dominated by major new collections from well established poets
with long publishing histories, Simon West's First Names stood out as an
extremely accomplished first book. The judges particularly admired the
precision and melos of the language, and the sense of an emerging poet
possessed of very mature technical skill. West's book explores a
relationship with both contemporary Italian and Renaissance Italian
poetry, a relationship which inflects his work with influences rarely felt
so clearly in Australian poetry. The book is a sustained, finely designed
performance as a whole collection: there is not a missing beat or weak
poem.



Fay Zwicky, Picnic (Giramondo Publishing Company)

The title poem places the poet at 'a picnic with Afghani refugees' in
Perth 's Kings Park . Seated with the women while their men brood 'under a
far-off tree', Fay Zwicky deftly establishes the fraught continuities and
discontinuities between the familial and the political, the private and
the public, the small and large scale. The collection is grounded in
experience and animated by a concern with ethical life and her own
responsibilities as a poet, a teacher, a lover, a mother. In their
stylized musical and narrative architecture, the poems of Picnic create a
resonant assemblage.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Apr 27 11:16:24 2007
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:16:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Metaphor battle
Message-ID: <c2d.fda13d6.33636dc8@cs.com>

This is great!

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=85568&
ml_collection=&ml_gateway=&ml_gateway_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_context=show&
ml_origin_url=%2Fmotherload%2Findex.jhtml%3Fml_video%3D85568&ml_playlist=&lnk=&
is_large=false   
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Apr 27 12:49:49 2007
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:49:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
In-Reply-To: <200704261600.l3QG04is001463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704261600.l3QG04is001463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3A85728F-49DC-4406-9EE8-21216C62A7D7@verizon.net>


Hey, any help for a devoted lurker?

Apparently someone flagged my google blogspot
for "offensive" something-or-other and apparently
there's no way to find out what or why, the googlers
have simply blanked out my 20 posts, no trial,
no jury, no way to reach any actual-body.

This is a poetry blog. I never kept copies,
alas and alack -- any ideas from more experienced hands?

pathetically,

Barry



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Apr 27 13:49:45 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:49:45 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
References: <200704261600.l3QG04is001463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<3A85728F-49DC-4406-9EE8-21216C62A7D7@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <003201c788f4$7173a2f0$51ef014f@ANNY>

Dear Barry, I am so sorry for you (lo siento mucho). See if this can help. At the end of all this story there is an - email us -, you might wish to skip to that one.
Let us know if you are able to get back, 
Care, Anny

My blog disappeared from my account! What do I do?
A very common reason for why you might now see your blog on your dashboard is that you're logged in to the wrong account. If you have two accounts and accidentally log in to the wrong one, you may not see your blog, even if it's still safe and sound on the first account. This often happens when people have two accounts with similar usernames and the same password. The thing to do in this case is to get a list of all your usernames. To do this go to http://blogger.com/forgot.g and enter ONLY your email address into the form (leave the username box blank). This will send a recovery email to you with a list of all the usernames of the accounts associated with your email address. Once you've got that list, you can recover the password for each one (if necessary) and then log in to each one until you find your blog. Important Note: Please try this even if you think you only have one account. We see many cases where people have accidentally created an extra account without realizing it, so checking this on your own is usually the fastest way to get your blog back.

If the blog in question was a team blog (shared by two or more people) then you may have been removed from the team. Contact the owner of the blog or an administrator to ask them to send you a new invitation.

I can't log in. What should I do?
Note: If you are having login trouble related to the new version of Blogger, please check out our article here. 

Select your problem from the list below:

  a.. Forgotten username and/or password. 
  b.. Password recovery email not received. 
  c.. Forgotten email address. 
  d.. No access to email address for recovering login information. 
  e.. "Incorrect password" error even with a correct password. 
  f.. Continual prompting to login, or "Session Expired" messages. 
  g.. Last Resorts. 
Forgotten username and/or password in the new version of Blogger

If you have forgotten your Google Account information, you can recover your Google Account login information by clicking on the '?' next to "Password" on the Blogger login page or you go to this page:

https://www.google.com/accounts/ForgotPasswd 

Forgotten username and/or password in classic Blogger.

You can recover your username or reset your password here: http://www.blogger.com/forgot.g

This form will send an email to the address registered on your account. The email will include a link to a page which will display your username and allow you to create a new password. If you have multiple usernames, you will instead see a list of them, and you will have the option of choosing one whose password you want to reset. 

Password recovery email not received.

  a.. Check your Spam/Junk/Bulk Mail folder in case the message got mis-routed. 
  b.. Try several email addresses, in case you didn't use your primary one for Blogger. 
  c.. Try recovering your username instead of your password. You may have mis-remembered your username and be sending password recovery emails to another user. (We recommend trying this, even if you think you are sure of your username.)
Forgotten email address.

If you can't remember what email address you used when you created your account, start by making a list of all your addresses (including old ones that you might have used when you signed up). Then enter each one by turn into the username recovery form. Most will give you an error, until you hit the one that you actually used, in which case you'll see a message indicating that your username has been sent.

No access to email address for recovering login information.

If you signed up with an old email address that you no longer have access to, or if you made a typo in your email when registering, then you will not be able to use the login recovery functions. In this case, you'll need to write to us for help. To speed things up, please provide us with the following information:

  a.. Your previous email that you registered with, as well as your current one. 
  b.. Your username, if you know it. 
  c.. The first and last names you registered on your account. 
  d.. Your blog's URL. 
"Incorrect password" error even with a correct password.

If you are certain that you are using the correct password, but still see an error about it, then the problem is most likely with your username. This can be a little confusing, but if you accidentally use someone else's username, then your own password will not match it and Blogger will display an error, since it thinks you are really the other person trying to log in. The thing to do in this case is to recover your username. 

Continual prompting to login, or "Session Expired" messages.

If you repeatedly get bounced back to the login screen, with no message about an incorrect username or password, then this is caused by your browser not retaining your login information correctly. You may also see "Session Expired" messages in these cases. To fix this you need to troubleshoot your browser, so try the following:

  a.. Clear your cache. 
  b.. Delete your Blogger cookie. 
  c.. Check your Cookie settings. 
  d.. Check your JavaScript settings. 
  e.. Quit your browser and restart it. 
  f.. Use another browser.
   
  Browse Happy-all the cool kids are doing it.

Note that if you have a firewall, you should check its cookie settings as well, to make sure it will allow Blogger's cookies to be set. Check the manual or documentation for the firewall for information on this.

Last Resorts

  a.. Restart your computer. 
  b.. Try a different computer. 
  c.. Try a different Internet connection. 
  d.. Take a deep breath - the world isn't ending - write us for help. Be sure to give us as much information as you can about your account and the problems you are experiencing.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barry Spacks" <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster


> 
> Hey, any help for a devoted lurker?
> 
> Apparently someone flagged my google blogspot
> for "offensive" something-or-other and apparently
> there's no way to find out what or why, the googlers
> have simply blanked out my 20 posts, no trial,
> no jury, no way to reach any actual-body.
> 
> This is a poetry blog. I never kept copies,
> alas and alack -- any ideas from more experienced hands?
> 
> pathetically,
> 
> Barry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Apr 27 17:50:45 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:50:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
References: <200704261600.l3QG04is001463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	3A85728F-49DC-4406-9EE8-21216C62A7D7@verizon.net
Message-ID: <001501c78916$206193a0$32fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Hey, any help for a devoted lurker?
>
> Apparently someone flagged my google blogspot
> for "offensive" something-or-other and apparently
> there's no way to find out what or why, the googlers
> have simply blanked out my 20 posts, no trial,
> no jury, no way to reach any actual-body.
>
> This is a poetry blog. I never kept copies,
> alas and alack -- any ideas from more experienced hands?
>
> pathetically,
>
> Barry


I have no help to offer, Barry.  Just fullest sympathy.  I don't care what 
you said, and I can't believe it was very bad, that your blog was wiped 
clean is an atrocity.  Be thankful it was only 20 posts, I guess.  I try to 
keep mine backed up, but fall behind.

--Bob G. 




From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Apr 27 19:10:24 2007
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:10:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
In-Reply-To: <3A85728F-49DC-4406-9EE8-21216C62A7D7@verizon.net>
References: <200704261600.l3QG04is001463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<3A85728F-49DC-4406-9EE8-21216C62A7D7@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8C957385F090FBE-170-4220@WEBMAIL-RB09.sysops.aol.com>

Barry, sounds like the great start of class action lawsuit. Google has 
deep pockets.
Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster

   Hey, any help for a devoted lurker??
?
 Apparently someone flagged my google blogspot?
 for "offensive" something-or-other and apparently?
 there's no way to find out what or why, the googlers?
 have simply blanked out my 20 posts, no trial,?
 no jury, no way to reach any actual-body.?
?
 This is a poetry blog. I never kept copies,?
 alas and alack -- any ideas from more experienced hands??
?
 pathetically,?
?
 Barry?
?
 _______________________________________________?
 New-Poetry mailing list?
 New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu?
 http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry?


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free 
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Apr 27 20:11:20 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:11:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
Message-ID: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>

Okay, in the interest of equal time, and since Nat'l Poetry Month is  winding
down this weekend (no clapping, please). It's time for the anti-poetry  
forces to take their best shot, to give full vent to the anomosity poesy so  
readily engenders. Humorous take downs and full body slams welcome.
 
Starting tomorrow and for 7 Days & 7 Nights you are invited to  post all 
manner of bad things said about poetry and poets.
 
To get us started, I offer an Irishman turning his back on the best  export 
(aside Guinness) from his homeland...
 
_http://walleahpress.com.au/FR35Prater.html_ 
(http://walleahpress.com.au/FR35Prater.html) 
 
Flann O?Brien in the mid-1940s:
 
Having considered the matter in ? of course ? all of its aspects, I have  
decided that there is no use for poetry. Poetry gives no adequate return in  
money, is expensive to print by reason of the waste of space occasioned by its  
form, and nearly always promulgates illusory concepts of life. But a better 
case  for the banning of all poetry is the simple fact that most of it is bad. 
Nobody  is going to manufacture a thousand tons of jam in the expectation that 
five may  be eatable. Furthermore, poetry has the effect on the negligible 
handful who  read it of stimulating them to write poetry themselves. One poem, if 
widely  disseminated, will breed perhaps a thousand inferior copies. The same 
objection  cannot be made in the case of painting or sculpture, because these 
occupations  afford employment for artisans who provide the materials. 
Moreover, poets are  usually unpleasant people who are poor and who insist forever on 
discussing that  incredibly boring subject, ?books?.
 
 
 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Fri Apr 27 20:17:47 2007
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:17:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
In-Reply-To: <8C957385F090FBE-170-4220@WEBMAIL-RB09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1177719467-525.00031.01700-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>

Barry,

I have all 20 posts.  It was preserved by my Google Reader.  I'll send
it to you back channel as an attachment

--Ed

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------

-
>-----Original Message-----
>From: barry.spacks at verizon.net
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Sent: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:49 PM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
>
>   Hey, any help for a devoted lurker?? 
>? 
> Apparently someone flagged my google blogspot? 
> for "offensive" something-or-other and apparently? 
> there's no way to find out what or why, the googlers? 
> have simply blanked out my 20 posts, no trial,? 
> no jury, no way to reach any actual-body.? 
>? 
> This is a poetry blog. I never kept copies,? 
> alas and alack -- any ideas from more experienced hands?? 
>? 
> pathetically,? 
>? 
> Barry? 
>? 
> _______________________________________________? 
> New-Poetry mailing list? 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu? 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry? 
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free 
>from AOL at AOL.com.
>=0
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
---------End of Included Message----------

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
Home Page:
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
Blog: 
http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Apr 27 21:33:27 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:33:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: blog disaster
References: <1177719467-525.00031.01700-smmsdV2.1.6@mailhub.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <004201c78935$3cf57620$32fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Barry,
>
> I have all 20 posts.  It was preserved by my Google Reader.  I'll send
> it to you back channel as an attachment
>
> --Ed

Phooey, I was just going to offer to replace his missing posts with mine on 
why visual poetry is the best kind of poetry.

--Bob G. 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Apr 27 22:20:16 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:20:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
Message-ID: <25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>

Snow Storm

Tumult, weeping, many new ghosts.
Heartbroken, aging, alone, I sing
To myself.  Ragged mist settles
In the spreading dusk.  Snow skurries
In the coiling wind.  The wineglass
Is spilled.  The bottle is empty.
The fire has gone out in the stove.
Everywhere men speak in whispers.
I brood on the uselessness of letters.

--Tu Fu, trans. Kenneth Rexroth.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



On Apr 27, 2007, at 8:11 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Okay, in the interest of equal time, and since Nat'l Poetry Month  
> is winding
> down this weekend (no clapping, please). It's time for the anti- 
> poetry forces to take their best shot, to give full vent to the  
> anomosity poesy so readily engenders. Humorous take downs and full  
> body slams welcome.
>
> Starting tomorrow and for 7 Days & 7 Nights you are invited to post  
> all manner of bad things said about poetry and poets.
>

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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Fri Apr 27 23:29:11 2007
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:29:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <0a0601c78945$6572f590$3058e0b0$@edu>

I Looked Up from My Writing

 

I looked up from my writing, 

  And gave a start to see,

As if rapt in my inditing,

  The moon's full gaze on me.

 

Her meditative, misty head

  Was spectral in its air,

And I involuntarily said,

  "What are you doing there?"

 

"Oh, I've been scanning pond and hole

  And waterway hereabout

For the body of one with a sunken soul

  Who has put his life-light out.

 

"Did you hear his frenzied tattle?

  It was sorrow for his son

Who is slain in brutish battle,

  Though he has injured none.  

 

"And now I am curious to look 

  Into the blinkered mind

Of one who wants to write a book

  In a world of such a kind.

 

Her temper overwrought me,

  And I edged to shun her view,

For I felt assured she thought me

  One who should drown him too.  

 

                                                --Thomas Hardy

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Apr 27 23:00:48 2007
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:00:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>

A Study of Reading Habits

      Philip Larkin

When getting my nose in a book
Cured most things short of school,
It was worth ruining my eyes
To know I could still keep cool,
And deal out the old right hook
To dirty dogs twice my size.

Later, with inch-thick specs,
Evil was just my lark:
Me and my coat and fangs
Had ripping times in the dark.
The women I clubbed with sex!
I broke them up like meringues.

Don't read much now: the dude
Who lets the girl down before
The hero arrives, the chap
Who's yellow and keeps the store
Seem far too familiar. Get stewed:
Books are a load of crap.



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================

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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 28 01:12:52 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:12:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
	<7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org>

The moral is this: in American verse,
The better you are, the pay is worse.

--Corey Ford

David Graham wrote:
> A Study of Reading Habits
>
>      Philip Larkin 
>
> When getting my nose in a book
> Cured most things short of school,
> It was worth ruining my eyes
> To know I could still keep cool,
> And deal out the old right hook
> To dirty dogs twice my size.
>
> Later, with inch-thick specs,
> Evil was just my lark:
> Me and my coat and fangs
> Had ripping times in the dark.
> The women I clubbed with sex!
> I broke them up like meringues.
>
> Don't read much now: the dude
> Who lets the girl down before
> The hero arrives, the chap
> Who's yellow and keeps the store
> Seem far too familiar. Get stewed:
> Books are a load of crap.
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 28 01:41:01 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:41:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem page
Message-ID: <007601c78957$ce43d320$9b8f3052@ANNY>

http://www.metmuseum.org:80/toah/ho/09/eaj/hob_1975.268.59.htm



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 28 05:01:30 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:01:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c78973$d0787cb0$bf2ab750@ANNY>

I elect Bob Grumman's following mail as the worst insensitive remark on poetry, I'd like to see who can beat me:

"Phooey, I was just going to offer to replace his missing posts with mine 

on why visual poetry is the best kind of poetry.

--Bob G." 

Note:
Italics and line break are mine.

  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:11 AM



  Okay, in the interest of equal time, and since Nat'l Poetry Month is winding
  down this weekend (no clapping, please). It's time for the anti-poetry forces to take their best shot, to give full vent to the anomosity poesy so readily engenders. Humorous take downs and full body slams welcome.

  Starting tomorrow and for 7 Days & 7 Nights you are invited to post all manner of bad things said about poetry and poets.

  To get us started, I offer an Irishman turning his back on the best export (aside Guinness) from his homeland...

  http://walleahpress.com.au/FR35Prater.html

  Flann O?Brien in the mid-1940s:

  Having considered the matter in ? of course ? all of its aspects, I have decided that there is no use for poetry. Poetry gives no adequate return in money, is expensive to print by reason of the waste of space occasioned by its form, and nearly always promulgates illusory concepts of life. But a better case for the banning of all poetry is the simple fact that most of it is bad. Nobody is going to manufacture a thousand tons of jam in the expectation that five may be eatable. Furthermore, poetry has the effect on the negligible handful who read it of stimulating them to write poetry themselves. One poem, if widely disseminated, will breed perhaps a thousand inferior copies. The same objection cannot be made in the case of painting or sculpture, because these occupations afford employment for artisans who provide the materials. Moreover, poets are usually unpleasant people who are poor and who insist forever on discussing that incredibly boring subject, ?books?.








------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  See what's free at AOL.com. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 28 08:43:22 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:43:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu><7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>
	4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org
Message-ID: <004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> The moral is this: in American verse,
> The better you are, the pay is worse.
>
> --Corey Ford

Shouldn't that be (according to me ear for the colloquial),

The moral is, the pay is worse
The better you are, in American verse.

--Bob G., negative-income poet (I've paid more in submission stamps than 
I've earned from publication) 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 28 08:06:55 2007
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 05:06:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] u say gunman?
In-Reply-To: <004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>
	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu><7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>
	4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org
	<004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <47DE0F76-C29A-4A17-BFB3-225FD8C4513E@earthlink.net>

to my ear (you can call it tin ha ha), this is a little closer

standards are lies, the amoral is
in commodified verse that pretends it's not biz



(oh woman, i must really be bored....
i can't even write "for submission," anymore...
but don't worry Dave Baratier, I won't send this one to you....


On Apr 28, 2007, at 5:43 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> The moral is this: in American verse,
>> The better you are, the pay is worse.
>>
>> --Corey Ford
>
> Shouldn't that be (according to me ear for the colloquial),
>
> The moral is, the pay is worse
> The better you are, in American verse.
>
> --Bob G., negative-income poet (I've paid more in submission stamps  
> than I've earned from publication)
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 28 09:29:55 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:29:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] u say gunman?
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com><25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu><7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@
	ripon.edu>4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org<004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	47DE0F76-C29A-4A17-BFB3-225FD8C4513E@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <005701c78999$530a3d10$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  to my ear (you can call it tin ha ha), this is a little closer


  standards are lies, the amoral is
  in commodified verse that pretends it's not biz

  Well, Chris, better, I'd say, but I tried to keep the words the same.

  The mention of (can I speak it??) . . .  "commodity" made me think again about how everything we do socially is exchange of coomodities--from which I suddenly realized with amusement that  attention is said to be PAID.  I wonder how that came to be.  Anyway, anything we write or say has to be intended to at least earn attention (even if we write or speak to ourselves alone).  

  Okay, I'm going back to bed.

  --Bob
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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 28 12:53:44 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:53:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com>	<25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu><7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@ripon.edu>	4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org
	<004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <46337C18.8090309@opus40.org>

This is from one of my all-time faves -- Corey Ford's parody of Joseph 
Moncure March's "The Set-Up." And I think he twisted the end deliberately.

Bob Grumman wrote:
>> The moral is this: in American verse,
>> The better you are, the pay is worse.
>>
>> --Corey Ford
>
> Shouldn't that be (according to me ear for the colloquial),
>
> The moral is, the pay is worse
> The better you are, in American verse.
>
> --Bob G., negative-income poet (I've paid more in submission stamps 
> than I've earned from publication)
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Apr 28 13:10:17 2007
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:10:17 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: de-blogged
In-Reply-To: <200704281125.l3SBPois002732@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704281125.l3SBPois002732@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <6C18DA46-13F4-417E-930C-21E31D5E170E@verizon.net>


Bob G. wrote:
>
> Phooey, I was just going to offer to replace his missing posts with  
> mine on
> why visual poetry is the best kind of poetry.
>
Thanks to all for help and concern, especially to Ed Byrne, who  
miraculously
arranged for the lost to be found, and for Bob's incredibly generous  
thought
(though who in good conscience could accept such sacrifice?).

I've located a cyber connection to google's legal department, am  
barbarically
yowlping at them, oddly as yet no contrite reply.

Now that Ed's sent my disappeared posts, I've searched and surely
found the Grave Offense -- the "F"-word and the "S"-word in an
impromptu poem about a seagull.  I'd post that offending final stanza  
here
as a caution, but maybe better not, given the omni-presence
these days of the F-ing Dicter-SS.

rantingly,

Barry


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From Opus40-01 at opus40.org  Sat Apr 28 13:14:41 2007
From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:14:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: de-blogged
In-Reply-To: <6C18DA46-13F4-417E-930C-21E31D5E170E@verizon.net>
References: <200704281125.l3SBPois002732@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<6C18DA46-13F4-417E-930C-21E31D5E170E@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <46338101.9070609@opus40.org>

Those f***ing seagulls...they'll s*** all over you.

Barry Spacks wrote:
>
> Bob G. wrote:
>>
>> Phooey, I was just going to offer to replace his missing posts with 
>> mine on 
>> why visual poetry is the best kind of poetry.
>>
> Thanks to all for help and concern, especially to Ed Byrne, who 
> miraculously
> arranged for the lost to be found, and for Bob's incredibly generous 
> thought
> (though who in good conscience could accept such sacrifice?).
>
> I've located a cyber connection to google's legal department, am 
> barbarically
> yowlping at them, oddly as yet no contrite reply.
>
> Now that Ed's sent my disappeared posts, I've searched and surely
> found the Grave Offense -- the "F"-word and the "S"-word in an 
> impromptu poem about a seagull.  I'd post that offending final stanza here
> as a caution, but maybe better not, given the omni-presence 
> these days of the F-ing Dicter-SS.
>
> rantingly,
>
> Barry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>   

-- 
Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 28 14:38:20 2007
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:38:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] u say gunman?
In-Reply-To: <005701c78999$530a3d10$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c69.114644cb.3363eb28@aol.com><25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu><7F3300EE-23CE-4D3C-99B0-C5D654C3F0DD@
	ripon.edu>4632D7D4.1010305@opus40.org<004101c78992$d055e870$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	47DE0F76-C29A-4A17-BFB3-225FD8C4513E@earthlink.net
	<005701c78999$530a3d10$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8E7AEBCB-30AB-49D2-9759-7891093369DF@earthlink.net>


Bob thanks....I envision it more as a continuuation of what you  
wrote; like we're writing a collab piece, and it would be cool if any  
others wanted to add another couplet after mine...

C


On Apr 28, 2007, at 6:29 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
>
> to my ear (you can call it tin ha ha), this is a little closer
>
> standards are lies, the amoral is
> in commodified verse that pretends it's not biz
>
> Well, Chris, better, I'd say, but I tried to keep the words the same.
>
> The mention of (can I speak it??) . . .  "commodity" made me think  
> again about how everything we do socially is exchange of  
> coomodities--from which I suddenly realized with amusement that   
> attention is said to be PAID.  I wonder how that came to be.   
> Anyway, anything we write or say has to be intended to at least  
> earn attention (even if we write or speak to ourselves alone).
>
> Okay, I'm going back to bed.
>
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From ccooley at overdomain.com  Sat Apr 28 14:50:17 2007
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:50:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: u say gunman?
In-Reply-To: <200704281600.l3SG04it006676@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704281600.l3SG04it006676@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <7DF9D740-E02F-428B-838F-DF6CE1FB977E@overdomain.com>

Sorry, can't let this pass.  If you read the book "The Gift" by L.  
Hyde (should be on that non-poetry poetry reading list we've never  
seen compiled), or if you ever got married or tried to love anyone  
for more than 2 hours, and have access to the neuron where the memory  
is stored, you will sense the falsehood of "...how everything we do  
socially is exchange of coomodities [sic]".  I'm not really taking  
aim at you BG, but at an idea I detest: that everything may be (or  
is) commoditized.  Hyde slices this idea neatly in seventeen ways,  
showing the pervasiveness and difference of gift exchange (that is,  
in newspeak 'paying it forward'-- giving without knowing when or how  
or whether anything will come back, but having FAITH in a gift  
community, knowing that it might), giving examples from Pound and  
Whitman.  Lacking his book's subtlety and being away from my library,  
I encapsulate my horror at the idea of the world being solely a place  
of commodity exchange by challenging the economist who invented it to  
sell shares in his wife's pussy.

Strike one against Babylon!

> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:29:55 -0500
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] u say gunman?
>
>
>
>   to my ear (you can call it tin ha ha), this is a little closer
>
>
>   standards are lies, the amoral is
>   in commodified verse that pretends it's not biz
>
>   Well, Chris, better, I'd say, but I tried to keep the words the  
> same.
>
>   The mention of (can I speak it??) . . .  "commodity" made me  
> think again about how everything we do socially is exchange of  
> coomodities--from which I suddenly realized with amusement that   
> attention is said to be PAID.  I wonder how that came to be.   
> Anyway, anything we write or say has to be intended to at least  
> earn attention (even if we write or speak to ourselves alone).
>
>   Okay, I'm going back to bed.
>
>   --Bob
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/ 
> 20070428/3fa55e05/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 34, Issue 38
> ******************************************
>



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 28 14:55:20 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:55:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: de-blogged
References: <200704281125.l3SBPois002732@wiz.cath.vt.edu><6C18DA46-13F4-417E-930C-21E31D5E170E@verizon.net>
	<46338101.9070609@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <003201c789c6$c54c7280$e2eb3652@ANNY>

seagulls f***ingly s***ting seagulls

but you can post the link to your blog, or do you think it will crash down 
the entire www worrrld wwwide eb
?

From: "TheOldMole" <Opus40-01 at opus40.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:14 PM


> Those f***ing seagulls...they'll s*** all over you.
>
> Barry Spacks wrote:
>>
>> Bob G. wrote:
>>>
>>> Phooey, I was just going to offer to replace his missing posts with mine 
>>> on why visual poetry is the best kind of poetry.
>>>
>> Thanks to all for help and concern, especially to Ed Byrne, who 
>> miraculously
>> arranged for the lost to be found, and for Bob's incredibly generous 
>> thought
>> (though who in good conscience could accept such sacrifice?).
>>
>> I've located a cyber connection to google's legal department, am 
>> barbarically
>> yowlping at them, oddly as yet no contrite reply.
>>
>> Now that Ed's sent my disappeared posts, I've searched and surely
>> found the Grave Offense -- the "F"-word and the "S"-word in an impromptu 
>> poem about a seagull.  I'd post that offending final stanza here
>> as a caution, but maybe better not, given the omni-presence these days of 
>> the F-ing Dicter-SS.
>>
>> rantingly,
>>
>> Barry
>>




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 28 15:01:25 2007
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:01:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: u say gunman?
In-Reply-To: <7DF9D740-E02F-428B-838F-DF6CE1FB977E@overdomain.com>
References: <200704281600.l3SG04it006676@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<7DF9D740-E02F-428B-838F-DF6CE1FB977E@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <55D0C766-C451-4313-A329-AB2B41F04DC8@earthlink.net>

Crisman---
thanks for the thoughts. I really appreciate....can you, would you be  
willing to, put them in a couplet?

On Apr 28, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote:

> Sorry, can't let this pass.  If you read the book "The Gift" by L.  
> Hyde (should be on that non-poetry poetry reading list we've never  
> seen compiled), or if you ever got married or tried to love anyone  
> for more than 2 hours, and have access to the neuron where the  
> memory is stored, you will sense the falsehood of "...how  
> everything we do socially is exchange of coomodities [sic]".  I'm  
> not really taking aim at you BG, but at an idea I detest: that  
> everything may be (or is) commoditized.  Hyde slices this idea  
> neatly in seventeen ways, showing the pervasiveness and difference  
> of gift exchange (that is, in newspeak 'paying it forward'-- giving  
> without knowing when or how or whether anything will come back, but  
> having FAITH in a gift community, knowing that it might), giving  
> examples from Pound and Whitman.  Lacking his book's subtlety and  
> being away from my library, I encapsulate my horror at the idea of  
> the world being solely a place of commodity exchange by challenging  
> the economist who invented it to sell shares in his wife's pussy.
>
> Strike one against Babylon!
>
>> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:29:55 -0500
>> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] u say gunman?
>>
>>
>>
>>   to my ear (you can call it tin ha ha), this is a little closer
>>
>>
>>   standards are lies, the amoral is
>>   in commodified verse that pretends it's not biz
>>
>>   Well, Chris, better, I'd say, but I tried to keep the words the  
>> same.
>>
>>   The mention of (can I speak it??) . . .  "commodity" made me  
>> think again about how everything we do socially is exchange of  
>> coomodities--from which I suddenly realized with amusement that   
>> attention is said to be PAID.  I wonder how that came to be.   
>> Anyway, anything we write or say has to be intended to at least  
>> earn attention (even if we write or speak to ourselves alone).
>>
>>   Okay, I'm going back to bed.
>>
>>   --Bob
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/ 
>> 20070428/3fa55e05/attachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 34, Issue 38
>> ******************************************
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 16:07:33 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:07:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
Message-ID: <c4c.139801ab.33650385@aol.com>

"There  are two ways of disliking poetry; one way is to dislike it, the other 
is to read  Pope." 
--  Oscar Wilde



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Apr 28 17:16:37 2007
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:16:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: u say gunman?
References: <200704281600.l3SG04it006676@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	7DF9D740-E02F-428B-838F-DF6CE1FB977E@overdomain.com
Message-ID: <007601c789da$84252090$a0fad740@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Sorry, can't let this pass.  If you read the book "The Gift" by L.  Hyde 
> (should be on that non-poetry poetry reading list we've never  seen 
> compiled), or if you ever got married or tried to love anyone  for more 
> than 2 hours, and have access to the neuron where the memory  is stored, 
> you will sense the falsehood of "...how everything we do  socially is 
> exchange of coomodities [sic]".  I'm not really taking  aim at you BG, but 
> at an idea I detest: that everything may be (or  is) commoditized.

Well, it all depends on the meaning of "commodity."  And using it only to 
refer to something exchanged for, ugh, money, or something else equally 
"bad."  How one feels about one's commodities enters into it, too.  Just 
because one does X for a loved one to make the loved one feel happy (and 
give us a smile or the equivalent) and feels good about it doesn't make what 
one did not a commodity because one's feeling good is different from the way 
one felt doing X for money on another occasion.  Ultimately, it's 
neurophysiology: I claim everything we do is to gain pleasure or avoid pain.


  Hyde slices this idea neatly in seventeen ways,
> showing the pervasiveness and difference of gift exchange (that is,  in 
> newspeak 'paying it forward'-- giving without knowing when or how  or 
> whether anything will come back, but having FAITH in a gift  community, 
> knowing that it might), giving examples from Pound and  Whitman.  Lacking 
> his book's subtlety and being away from my library,  I encapsulate my 
> horror at the idea of the world being solely a place  of commodity 
> exchange by challenging the economist who invented it to  sell shares in 
> his wife's pussy.

All I see you as saying here is that his wife's pussy is a commodity too 
important to him to "sell."  Actually, to rent.  My body is obviously a 
commodity.  I rent it to my board of education as a substitute teacher.  I 
wouldn't sell my right arm for any amount of money, though.  And my body as 
commodity is complex.  I'm also being paid in the human companionship I get 
from staff and students, and occasional gratitude when I actually loin 
somebody somethin'.  And a feeling of being a contributing member of 
society.  Etc.  But I imagine Hyde says about the same thing: different 
forms of commodity, but he calls the good ones gifts, no doubt, and only the 
ones he doesn't like "commodities."

Hey, it's one of my buzzers, too!  Hurrah for Babylon!

--Bob G. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 16:18:50 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:18:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: u say gunman?
Message-ID: <cf7.ee7f75e.3365062a@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/28/2007 2:50:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
ccooley at overdomain.com writes:

The  Gift" by L.  
Hyde (should be on that non-poetry poetry reading list  we've never  
seen compiled),


That one must of got missed the first go round...and I think I even  
suggested it in the orginal
thread. The list did get posted on NewPoetry back in March and I put  it on 
my blog (link below). 
I've collected a few other suggestions, Tad sent several others, and I've  
yet to update it, but I 
will soon.
A true work in progress, being helped along by folks on this list, and  now 
called the 
Ars Poetica Library...
_http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.ht
ml_ 
(http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2007/03/poets-ideal-library-work-in-progress.html) 
 
Finnegan



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 16:29:47 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:29:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] po and dough
Message-ID: <d0d.f32b00c.336508bb@aol.com>

 
There's no money in poetry, but then there's no poetry in money, either."  
--Robert Graves, English Poet (1895-1985) 
Poetry is a kind of money. --Wallace Stevens, Adagia 
Money is a dispassionate metaphor created to prevent poets from  writing. 
?Nick Piombino, ?Aperitifs,? Theoretical Objects, Green Integer 34,  1999



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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 16:31:29 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:31:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] po and dough
Message-ID: <bb8.11436690.33650921@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 4/28/2007 4:30:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Poetry is a kind of money.  --Wallace Stevens, Adagia


That's mixed up, I realize, it's...
 "Money is a kind of poetry."---Wallace Stevens, Adagia
 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Apr 28 16:33:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:33:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
References: <c4c.139801ab.33650385@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c789d4$823238f0$e2eb3652@ANNY>

Grand. I have already a name to replace Pope
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week


  "There are two ways of disliking poetry; one way is to dislike it, the other is to read Pope." 
  -- Oscar Wilde





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  See what's free at AOL.com. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 21:05:50 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:05:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
Message-ID: <cf8.c7ec901.3365496e@aol.com>

CoolWhiteNameDroppinJazzPoet
 
'cause i'm a Cauc poet 
who need some cred, gotta work
in Miles right  from the gitgo
so folks pays attention--then straightup, 
righteous  bebop man Charlie Parker, 
Bird, oh beautiful dead Bird,
and i really  begins to let thangs 
hang out, i wanna to let'em know 
i knows, so i  lay down Trane, 
and takes a little toke, a little bit 
of smokey Lester  Young, baby, 
oh baby, now we bakin bread,
and sins i need least one white  cat,
i sez, Chet, like he knows me
and i was askin 'im for a light 
or  a lift home from the club, 
but then i feel the poem comin apart
at the  seams, the tenor riffs, rippin 
& roughin it up, tempo all outacontrol,  
so i downshifts and mainlines, 
draggin out ol' Ornette Coleman, 
deep  down and slow, and that's how 
you know i'm a cool poet, 
a realcool poet  who knows 'is shit.






************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 28 22:09:26 2007
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:09:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <cf8.c7ec901.3365496e@aol.com>
References: <cf8.c7ec901.3365496e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AA8CBF03-169C-40E6-8FCE-3F1CC6A7BD70@earthlink.net>

"I hate reading your poems seems like you took some excerpts
from a crappier poem and them made a shorter version of the
crap. Keep writing and improving."

from *Hanging Out with Pablo and Jennifer* by K. Silem Mohammad
http://www.durationpress.com/bookstore/ebooks/mohammad/mohammad.pdf



Hal

"There is poetry in everything. That
  is the biggest argument against poetry."
  		   --Miroslav Holub

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Sat Apr 28 22:14:44 2007
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:14:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
References: <cf8.c7ec901.3365496e@aol.com>
	<AA8CBF03-169C-40E6-8FCE-3F1CC6A7BD70@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A8D99F@URANIUM.ripon.college>


Shnordink's Butterfly

Shnordink? Oh I suppose he has a few good clumpies. 
He's not terrible. That one about the moth or butterfly in the graveyard 
is pretty good. He has some talent. 
Wait a second. Shnordink . . .  Say, 
is he friends with Audrey Rosedorf 
who writes those arrogant reviews in *Muskmelon Quarterly*? 
He is? Interesting. Actually, 
there's something ultimately hollow in Shnordink, 
there's a telltale streak of falsity, a tinniness, 
a kind of damp-nosed insidious posing, 
a quality of trying-to-play-ball-like-the-bigger-boys . . . 
It's as if Rosedorf's absurdly stiff-necked high-handedness had--
What? He did?
Shnordink said I was important?
An important clumper with enviable imaginative flair? 
That's interesting. Actually, 
I'm pleased to hear it, simply because 
Shnordink is not an idiot (whatever his limitations);
I think he has been underestimated in some quarters. 
Actually, I'm thinking of reviewing his latest. 
A few of those clumpies are, um, rather marvelous, and 
the book as a whole, I'm going to say, is quirky and engaging.

*In the hillside cemetery accented with circles of petunias and irises, 
a creature borne on translucent blue-green wings
rests momentarily atop one stone or another
and then launches itself anew.*

--Mark Halliday.  *Jab*.  U Chicago, 2002.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 11:32:09 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:32:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
Message-ID: <d3d.734b63f.33661479@aol.com>

I  know what his poetry will be about. What poetry is always about. The 
cruelty of  the poet's mistress. 
--  Don Delillo. London Fields



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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 11:57:17 2007
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:57:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
Message-ID: <c07.129b2a7a.33661a5d@aol.com>

Poet. Pompous synonym for fool, dreamer.
Poetry. Entirely useless; old  hat.
 
--Gustave Flaubert, The Dictionary of Accepted Ideas (Jacques Barzun,  trans.,
New Directions 1954)
 
Note: philosophy didn?t get off any better?
Philosophy. Always snicker  at it.




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 29 12:41:56 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:41:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
References: <c07.129b2a7a.33661a5d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c78a7d$4cb1e320$9bad3452@ANNY>

all right! Does he maybe think that fiction is a more refined ... "science"?

  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:57 PM


  Poet. Pompous synonym for fool, dreamer.
  Poetry. Entirely useless; old hat.

  --Gustave Flaubert, The Dictionary of Accepted Ideas (Jacques Barzun, trans.,
  New Directions 1954)

  Note: philosophy didn?t get off any better?
  Philosophy. Always snicker at it.


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 29 12:47:21 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:47:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dreamweaver
Message-ID: <005901c78a7e$0ee01f70$9bad3452@ANNY>

I am using this list for a specific request. I messed up Macromedia Dreamweaver, I know why, because I do not want to read the over 300 pages to understand it. Fact is that I messed it up. 

Is there anybody who can give me a hand? I have specific questions. The very first one: 

- why, after un- and installing it again did my property page change? Why cannot I set the margins? The same page has changed: I don't have : headings - for example on the right box; 

and the second:
- why doesn't it upload my pages with the background when I visualize it on the browser?

Thank you very much, Anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 13:08:36 2007
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] ow.
In-Reply-To: <200704291600.l3TG06it022942@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <134021.82129.qm@web35514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"CoolWhiteNameDroppinJazzPoet"

Ow.
Ow.
I nominate Jim Finnegan as Winner of Nat'l Poetry Slag
Week.
Ow.
Amicalement,
Alex


www.alexdickow.net/blog/
   
  les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin
  merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet



From SLIDINGSCA at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 14:10:24 2007
From: SLIDINGSCA at aol.com (SLIDINGSCA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:10:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Amen, Colette Inez,
	& Larissa Shmailo in NYC this Friday 5/4
Message-ID: <c04.15c2130f.33663990@aol.com>

 
The Writer's Voice Visiting Author  Series Presents: 
John Amen, Colette Inez &  Larissa Shmailo 
Friday,  May 4, 2007 
7:30  PM 
Reading/Discussion/Book  Signing 
West Side YMCA-- The George  Washington Lounge 
5 West 63rd  Street (between Central Park West & Broadway) 
Accessible  Trains: A, B, C, D, 1 & 9 to Columbus Circle. 

~Admission  Free and Open to the Public~ 
Wines  from 67Wine: 
Books will be available for sale at  this reading from BookCourt. 
John Amen is a writer, musician, and artist.  He is the author of two 
collections of poetry, Christening the Dancer  (Uccelli Press 2003) and More of Me 
Disappears (Cross-Cultural  Communications 2005). His work has been nominated 
for various awards, including  the Kate Tufts Award, the Lenore Marshall Award, 
the Oscar Arnold Young Award,  and the Brockman-Campbell Prize. In addition, 
he was recently nominated for a  Pushcart Prize. His work has appeared in 
various journals and magazines, and he  is featured in The 2007 Poets Market. His 
first solo music CD, All  I'll Never Need, was released by Cool Midget in 2004. 
Amen travels widely  giving readings, doing musical performances, and 
conducting workshops. He  founded and continues to edit the award-winning literary 
bimonthly, The Pedestal  Magazine. 
Colette Inez has authored nine poetry  collections, most recently Spinoza  
Doesn?t Come Here Anymore from Melville House Books, and has won Guggenheim,  
Rockefeller, and two NEA fellowships. She is widely anthologized and teaches in  
Columbia  University?s Writing  Program. Her forthcoming memoir, The  Secret 
of M. Dulong, was published in 2005 by the University of Wisconsin Press. 
Larissa  Shmailo has been  published in About Poetry, Rattapallax,  Big 
Bridge, and other journals. She translated the Russian  Futurist opera Victory over 
the Sun by A. Kruchenych and recently contributed translations to New Russian 
Poetry forthcoming from  Dalkey Archive Press. Her poetry CD is The  No-Net 
World. She is active in the New York City Poetry community as  curator of the 
Sliding Scale  Poetry reading series.
 



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Apr 29 14:47:00 2007
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:47:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Return of the Blog
In-Reply-To: <200704291600.l3TG06is022942@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200704291600.l3TG06is022942@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <2AE3C327-0AFE-4D58-98D1-C2AE707130FC@verizon.net>


On Apr 29, 2007, at 9:00 AM, dear Annie wrote:

> but you can post the link to your blog, or do you think it will  
> crash down
> the entire www worrrld wwwide web?
>
Thanks for asking, Annie. The blog is back, due to cyber-genius
Peter McEwen's foxing the politzei by moving the retrieved posts
to a new template!

It now lacks (I think) any flagrant offensiveness, sigh.

For the blog-mad who might like to visit,  the URL is:

http://barryspacks.blogspot.com/


From skip at louisiana.edu  Sun Apr 29 15:08:46 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:08:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] po and dough
In-Reply-To: <d0d.f32b00c.336508bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009701c78a91$d6039b00$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

And yet a few years back, Maya Angelou made four million dollars. Really.
And I think it was the year after that she was named "The Hallmark Cards
Poet." (The morning I heard, I announced to case, adding "It's official at
last.")

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 3:30 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] po and dough

 

There's no money in poetry, but then there's no poetry in money, either." 

--Robert Graves, English Poet (1895-1985)

 

Poetry is a kind of money. --Wallace Stevens, Adagia

 

Money is a dispassionate metaphor created to prevent poets from writing.

-Nick Piombino, "Aperitifs," Theoretical Objects, Green Integer 34, 1999





  _____  

See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . 

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From skip at louisiana.edu  Sun Apr 29 15:14:18 2007
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:14:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week
In-Reply-To: <25DE646F-2A96-4241-B506-FFC63B1B5092@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <009e01c78a92$9be71720$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I want to say nearly as (quietly) moving as many of Pound's translations
from Cathay.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:20 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Poetry Slag Week

 

Snow Storm

 

Tumult, weeping, many new ghosts.

Heartbroken, aging, alone, I sing

To myself.  Ragged mist settles

In the spreading dusk.  Snow skurries

In the coiling wind.  The wineglass

Is spilled.  The bottle is empty.

The fire has gone out in the stove.

Everywhere men speak in whispers.

I brood on the uselessness of letters.

 

--Tu Fu, trans. Kenneth Rexroth.  

 

 

 

========================================

David Graham

grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:

http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

Poetry Library:

http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

==========================================

 





 

On Apr 27, 2007, at 8:11 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:





Okay, in the interest of equal time, and since Nat'l Poetry Month is winding

down this weekend (no clapping, please). It's time for the anti-poetry
forces to take their best shot, to give full vent to the anomosity poesy so
readily engenders. Humorous take downs and full body slams welcome.

 

Starting tomorrow and for 7 Days & 7 Nights you are invited to post all
manner of bad things said about poetry and poets.

 

 

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Apr 29 17:23:52 2007
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:23:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New book announcement
Message-ID: <5FFEDC0E-D998-4BC9-8C0F-BFD568328BA1@earthlink.net>

For those of you who haven't been keeping up, I'm including
an Amazon.com announcement of a new book:

Dear Amazon.com Customer,

We've noticed that customers who have expressed interest in books by  
Miroslav Holub have also ordered The Decameron Volume I (Large Print  
Edition) by Giovanni Boccaccio.  For this reason you might like to  
know that Giovanni Boccaccio's newest book, The Decameron Volume I  
(Large Print Edition), is now available in Paperback.  You can order  
your copy for just $18.99 by following the link below.

Hal


"Music is continuous. Only listening
  is intermittent."
                 --Henry David Thoreau

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Apr 29 20:59:40 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:59:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] New book announcement
References: <5FFEDC0E-D998-4BC9-8C0F-BFD568328BA1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001801c78ac2$d58e9bd0$9aa83452@ANNY>

:-)
we had a coffee a couple of days ago and he didn't tell me anything, go figure...
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:23 PM


  For those of you who haven't been keeping up, I'm including
  an Amazon.com announcement of a new book:


  Dear Amazon.com Customer,

  We've noticed that customers who have expressed interest in books by Miroslav Holub have also ordered The Decameron Volume I (Large Print Edition) by Giovanni Boccaccio.  For this reason you might like to know that Giovanni Boccaccio's newest book, The Decameron Volume I (Large Print Edition), is now available in Paperback.  You can order your copy for just $18.99 by following the link below.

  Hal




  "Music is continuous. Only listening
   is intermittent."
                  --Henry David Thoreau


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org 




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 30 07:39:57 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:39:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] blogs
Message-ID: <005e01c78b1c$47980a00$65e83652@ANNY>

Talking of blogs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/media/30blog.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

As Blogs Proliferate, a Gadfly With Accreditation at the U.N. 
In the third row, Matthew Lee tapped away at his laptop and scribbled on two notepads with the intensity of a graduate student at thesis time. When Ms. Okabe asked for questions, Mr. Lee, the resident blogger of the United Nations press corps, pounced, asking almost as many questions in 20 minutes as the other correspondents combined.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Mon Apr 30 09:17:54 2007
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:17:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dreamweaver
In-Reply-To: <005901c78a7e$0ee01f70$9bad3452@ANNY>
References: <005901c78a7e$0ee01f70$9bad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <fde503480704300617v14667d7ei10662988c02d5610@mail.gmail.com>

I can't promise to debug your problem however, can you clarify the
second problem? I thought there was an option for debugging - or at
least getting DW to tell you what it's doing when you try and update a
website.

On 4/29/07, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>
> I am using this list for a specific request. I messed up Macromedia
> Dreamweaver, I know why, because I do not want to read the over 300 pages to
> understand it. Fact is that I messed it up.
>
> Is there anybody who can give me a hand? I have specific questions. The very
> first one:
>
> - why, after un- and installing it again did my property page change? Why
> cannot I set the margins? The same page has changed: I don't have : headings
> - for example on the right box;
>
> and the second:
> - why doesn't it upload my pages with the background when I visualize it on
> the browser?
>
> Thank you very much, Anny
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Apr 30 10:17:08 2007
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:17:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Issue five of Otoliths
Message-ID: <001801c78b32$3caf3710$09ac3452@ANNY>




has just gone live, which means it's a year old today.



It's also May Day, so arise & join in a chorus of The Internationale with Paul Siegell, Andrew Topel, Jordan Stempleman, Ernesto Priego, Paolo Manalo, Eileen Tabios, Jeff Harrison, Katrinka Moore, Corey Mesler, Raymond Farr, Steve Rodgers, Robert Lee Brewer, Mark Cunningham, Martin Edmond, Steve Timm, James Sanders, Audacia Dangereyes, Thomas Fink, Spencer Selby, Maria Zajkowski, Richard Lopez, Marcia Arrieta, Tom Hibbard, Matina Stamatakis, Louise Landes Levi, M?rton Kopp?ny, Anny Ballardini, Jill Jones, Craig Santos Perez, mIEKAL aND, Dax Bayard-Murray, Ed Schenk, MTC Cronin, Alana Madison, Alexander Jorgensen, Andrew Taylor, Carol Novack (& Stan Crocker), Stephanie Green, Maurice Oliver, Caleb Puckett, David-Baptiste Chirot, Derek Motion, James Maughn, Michael Rothenberg, Tom Beckett, Nick Piombino & Richard Kostelanetz as they "change henceforth the old tradition". 



Enjoy.



Mark Young

Otoliths 





_ there is my first published longer fiction story ! If you can reach the end or read just part of it, I would love to know what you think of it. Thank you, Anny




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