From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 03:34:51 2006
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Fri,  1 Sep 2006 08:34:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] JH Prynne link
In-Reply-To: <1157026417.44f6d27157049@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com><003b01c6c92e$5b2185c0$32b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><FCF072BF-13E2-4E1C-B9A7-41E85C94C05E@uaf.edu><93E0CFC9-23E8-42FD-A1E3-0AD9B5469B44@bigpond.com><003a01c6c970$41cc5c70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><6211A811-16C1-4DC6-B796-59939ADBAD88@bigpond.com><004701c6c973$1b003be0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><07c001c6c975$0ffb4580$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><9D88F3F7-9D62-4192-828C-F263BA976FE8@uaf.edu><001901c6ca75$f6cc5b10$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><fde503480608301310n1d1a072cxb3bc46d572be954e@mail.gmail.com><000b01c6cc81$107a5d20$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<014401c6cc86$963c0e40$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<000701c6ccc8$a2765f70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<A06C78B8-2248-41B1-AE40-B4D8AFD8704C@bigpond.com>
	<1157026417.44f6d27157049@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <1157096091.44f7e29b97cf5@webmail.ukonline.net>

Yes, I always forget, my crap webmail program can't handle links that run over 
a line-break. I should have added that you'll probably need to copy the whole 
text into your address bar. 




Quoting m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk:

I like his poems. You can read my essay about one of them here:

http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-jh-prynne-her-weasels-
wild.html

Michael

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting Anthony Lawrence <ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com>:
> 
> > Can I ask what people think of the poetry of Jeremy Prynne?
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 05:12:59 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:12:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Taking Kooser's measure
In-Reply-To: <00b701c6cd1e$638ce990$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com>
	<013c01c6cc84$0f4a8850$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310232x2e87199akcf1764948e5290e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01c6cced$82f15f90$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310434h3b9bdc44i91c1dccdd972f051@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c6ccf6$824c7df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310556s64eec7b9lf00819620816dac5@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6cd0e$ecf1e5b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310825m67aade1bjca68f9a65dd5ede0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00b701c6cd1e$638ce990$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <fde503480609010212q3a2d30edv9f31f49fe823b2e5@mail.gmail.com>

Our conversation presumes that the theatre in the period we are
discussing is a complete free-market i.e. the theatres were free to
put on what they wanted, and the audience free to watch [1]. The
latter's choices has always been pre-selected for them through the
Lord Chamberlain's Office. How much the various censorship laws
encouraged pre-censorship ("chilling effects" in the modern jargon) is
up for debate.  However Shakespeare's permafrost position on the
boards could be a result of his plays being safe, from the Lord
Chamberlain's office POV. S's plays have been legally sanctioned for
the 400 years we're talking about.

Interestingly, the Lord Chamberlain's office gave up control in the
60's just in time for the Academy and the National theatre to, uh,
take over the baton as it were. As well as the voluntary watchdogs.
FFS, we can't even trust ourselves. When artists point to the
political inefficacy of their art, I'm always reminded of the Lord
Chamberlain's office. And Mary Whitehouse, of course. Somebody
somewhere has thought and still thinks that art is dangerous. And of
course, we can always censor ourselves. See the various "debates" on
politics and art. It's always OK to stuff your poetry full of religion
though. Unless it's the *wrong sort of religion (see Yeats? see islam
etc etc) or heresy (see Shelley).

Note, too, that printing in the UK has been proscribed for a large
part of it's history - I think at one time only 3 presses (London,
Oxford and Cambridge) had the writ. Yet more control.

Of course, for *real cultural conservatism see France in the 17th
century. Interesting to note that the various set of Royal
Societies/Academies were set up in France were mimic'd in the UK,
probably for much the same reasons - control from the centre.

Also note that the UK never had a National Theatre until the 60's. I
think that the UK never needed one because the Lord Chamberlain's
office gave us a de facto National theatre.

Roger

[1] I was surprised as to how much control the Lord Chamberlain's was
supposed to have. How much this played out in practice, I don't as yet
know.

http://www.caslon.com.au/censorshipguide16.htm

<quote>
In the United Kingdom, for example, licensing of commercial venues and
vetting of scripts was in place by the time of Elizabeth I. Stage
works were subject to pre-production censorship by the Lord
Chamberlain (an officer of the Royal Household) under the Stage
Licensing Act 1737, an enactment that with amendments remained in
force until 1968 and resulted in curiosities such as a ban on
performance of Shakespeare's King Lear from 1788 to 1820. The
legislation is discussed in Vincent Liesenfeld's The Licensing Act of
1737 (Madison: Uni of Wisconsin Press 1984).

The 1843 Act required -

    the submission of any new stage play or addition to an old play,
intended to the produced or acted for hire in Great Britain seven days
before it is due to be first acted or presented, and it is an offence
to present anything which has been disallowed, or not been given a
licence.

Similar legislation was in place in Australia from soon after the
first Anglo settlement (eg the Places of Public Entertainment Act 1828
in NSW colony) but was wound back earlier than in the UK.
</quote>

On 8/31/06, Robin <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
>
> >> > Are poets immune to fashion? To the
> >> > culture they live in?
> >>
> >> It would seem, counterintuitively, to be the case.
> > So tastes in this small little island do change occassional. You can't
> > have it both ways.
>
> No, my point is the opposite -- it takes a hell of a lot, and more than just
> the establishment willing it, to change taste.
-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
legs... facing the wrong way."


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 05:33:46 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:33:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Taking Kooser's measure
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609010212q3a2d30edv9f31f49fe823b2e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com>
	<fde503480608310232x2e87199akcf1764948e5290e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01c6cced$82f15f90$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310434h3b9bdc44i91c1dccdd972f051@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c6ccf6$824c7df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310556s64eec7b9lf00819620816dac5@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6cd0e$ecf1e5b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310825m67aade1bjca68f9a65dd5ede0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00b701c6cd1e$638ce990$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480609010212q3a2d30edv9f31f49fe823b2e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609010233l6b43dd51m6958b574d518ac45@mail.gmail.com>

And before anyone pounces on the fact that Shakespeare's King Lear was
banned from 1788 to 1820, I should point out that this was at a time
of political upheaval. Cant give the proles too many ideas now can we?

<patrioticSpeech music="the national anthem">The monarchy should
remain above reproach, beyond discussion, and even the glimmer of the
possibility of weakness should be extinguished from one's
mind.</patrioticSpeech>

I'm thinking that "free expression" is only a concept recently
fashionable in this small tight island. But of course, one must
*always think of the children, as is the fashionable scaremongering
going on today.

R

On 9/1/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our conversation presumes that the theatre in the period we are
> discussing is a complete free-market i.e. the theatres were free to
> put on what they wanted, and the audience free to watch [1]. The
> latter's choices has always been pre-selected for them through the
> Lord Chamberlain's Office. How much the various censorship laws
> encouraged pre-censorship ("chilling effects" in the modern jargon) is
> up for debate.  However Shakespeare's permafrost position on the
> boards could be a result of his plays being safe, from the Lord
> Chamberlain's office POV. S's plays have been legally sanctioned for
> the 400 years we're talking about.
>
> Interestingly, the Lord Chamberlain's office gave up control in the
> 60's just in time for the Academy and the National theatre to, uh,
> take over the baton as it were. As well as the voluntary watchdogs.
> FFS, we can't even trust ourselves. When artists point to the
> political inefficacy of their art, I'm always reminded of the Lord
> Chamberlain's office. And Mary Whitehouse, of course. Somebody
> somewhere has thought and still thinks that art is dangerous. And of
> course, we can always censor ourselves. See the various "debates" on
> politics and art. It's always OK to stuff your poetry full of religion
> though. Unless it's the *wrong sort of religion (see Yeats? see islam
> etc etc) or heresy (see Shelley).
>
> Note, too, that printing in the UK has been proscribed for a large
> part of it's history - I think at one time only 3 presses (London,
> Oxford and Cambridge) had the writ. Yet more control.
>
> Of course, for *real cultural conservatism see France in the 17th
> century. Interesting to note that the various set of Royal
> Societies/Academies were set up in France were mimic'd in the UK,
> probably for much the same reasons - control from the centre.
>
> Also note that the UK never had a National Theatre until the 60's. I
> think that the UK never needed one because the Lord Chamberlain's
> office gave us a de facto National theatre.
>
> Roger
>
> [1] I was surprised as to how much control the Lord Chamberlain's was
> supposed to have. How much this played out in practice, I don't as yet
> know.
>
> http://www.caslon.com.au/censorshipguide16.htm
>
> <quote>
> In the United Kingdom, for example, licensing of commercial venues and
> vetting of scripts was in place by the time of Elizabeth I. Stage
> works were subject to pre-production censorship by the Lord
> Chamberlain (an officer of the Royal Household) under the Stage
> Licensing Act 1737, an enactment that with amendments remained in
> force until 1968 and resulted in curiosities such as a ban on
> performance of Shakespeare's King Lear from 1788 to 1820. The
> legislation is discussed in Vincent Liesenfeld's The Licensing Act of
> 1737 (Madison: Uni of Wisconsin Press 1984).
>
> The 1843 Act required -
>
>     the submission of any new stage play or addition to an old play,
> intended to the produced or acted for hire in Great Britain seven days
> before it is due to be first acted or presented, and it is an offence
> to present anything which has been disallowed, or not been given a
> licence.
>
> Similar legislation was in place in Australia from soon after the
> first Anglo settlement (eg the Places of Public Entertainment Act 1828
> in NSW colony) but was wound back earlier than in the UK.
> </quote>
>
> On 8/31/06, Robin <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> > From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
> >
> > >> > Are poets immune to fashion? To the
> > >> > culture they live in?
> > >>
> > >> It would seem, counterintuitively, to be the case.
> > > So tastes in this small little island do change occassional. You can't
> > > have it both ways.
> >
> > No, my point is the opposite -- it takes a hell of a lot, and more than just
> > the establishment willing it, to change taste.
> --
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> "From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
> legs... facing the wrong way."
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
legs... facing the wrong way."


From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Fri Sep  1 05:59:44 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:59:44 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] JH Prynne link
In-Reply-To: <1157096091.44f7e29b97cf5@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com><003b01c6c92e$5b2185c0$32b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><FCF072BF-13E2-4E1C-B9A7-41E85C94C05E@uaf.edu><93E0CFC9-23E8-42FD-A1E3-0AD9B5469B44@bigpond.com><003a01c6c970$41cc5c70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><6211A811-16C1-4DC6-B796-59939ADBAD88@bigpond.com><004701c6c973$1b003be0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><07c001c6c975$0ffb4580$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><9D88F3F7-9D62-4192-828C-F263BA976FE8@uaf.edu><001901c6ca75$f6cc5b10$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><fde503480608301310n1d1a072cxb3bc46d572be954e@mail.gmail.com><000b01c6cc81$107a5d20$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<014401c6cc86$963c0e40$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<000701c6ccc8$a2765f70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<A06C78B8-2248-41B1-AE40-B4D8AFD8704C@bigpond.com>
	<1157026417.44f6d27157049@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<1157096091.44f7e29b97cf5@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <0BD4368C-8361-4BF5-AA84-A2EE709D5FFD@bigpond.com>

Thanks Michael - your essay is a good intro to his work. I'll go read  
some.


On 01/09/2006, at 5:34 PM, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:

> Yes, I always forget, my crap webmail program can't handle links  
> that run over
> a line-break. I should have added that you'll probably need to copy  
> the whole
> text into your address bar.
>
>
>
>
> Quoting m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk:
>
> I like his poems. You can read my essay about one of them here:
>
> http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-jh-prynne-her- 
> weasels-
> wild.html
>
> Michael
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Anthony Lawrence <ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com>:
>>
>>> Can I ask what people think of the poetry of Jeremy Prynne?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com





From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 06:09:34 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:09:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] JH Prynne link
In-Reply-To: <0BD4368C-8361-4BF5-AA84-A2EE709D5FFD@bigpond.com>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com>
	<001901c6ca75$f6cc5b10$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<fde503480608301310n1d1a072cxb3bc46d572be954e@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c6cc81$107a5d20$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<014401c6cc86$963c0e40$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<000701c6ccc8$a2765f70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<A06C78B8-2248-41B1-AE40-B4D8AFD8704C@bigpond.com>
	<1157026417.44f6d27157049@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<1157096091.44f7e29b97cf5@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<0BD4368C-8361-4BF5-AA84-A2EE709D5FFD@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609010309q25daf615s69ddaf853b40a4c@mail.gmail.com>

there's also the book devoted to Prynne's work "Nearly Too Much".

Roger

On 9/1/06, Anthony Lawrence <ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com> wrote:
> Thanks Michael - your essay is a good intro to his work. I'll go read
> some.
>
>
> On 01/09/2006, at 5:34 PM, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>
> > Yes, I always forget, my crap webmail program can't handle links
> > that run over
> > a line-break. I should have added that you'll probably need to copy
> > the whole
> > text into your address bar.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk:
> >
> > I like his poems. You can read my essay about one of them here:
> >
> > http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-jh-prynne-her-
> > weasels-
> > wild.html
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting Anthony Lawrence <ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com>:
> >>
> >>> Can I ask what people think of the poetry of Jeremy Prynne?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------
> >> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> Anthony Lawrence
> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
legs... facing the wrong way."


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 09:18:15 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:18:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RESILIENCE OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT: AN INTERNATIONAL
	GATHERING OF POETS
Message-ID: <c27.2dd0d59.32298d17@aol.com>

 

Blue Flower Arts & Jan Warner  Present
A Weekend Conference At The Guthrie  Center, Great Barrington,  Mass.
THE RESILIENCE OF THE HUMAN  SPIRIT: 
AN INTERNATIONAL GATHERING OF  POETS
September 16-17,  2006
www.resiliencespirit.com


This conference is an extraordinary gathering of 13 poets  from around the 
world who have lived through war, genocide, execution of loved  ones, exile, and 
other unimaginable experiences-from Hiroshima and the holocaust  to years in 
the Hanoi prison for writing poetry-whose lives and voices bear  witness to 
the resilience of the human spirit. During the weekend, each poet  will share 
his or her inspiring story through a variety of intimate  conversations, 
thematic panels, and writing workshops. All will share the power  of their words in a 
group poetry reading on Saturday night. For the full  schedule, visit the 
website: _www.resiliencespirit.com_ (http://www.resiliencespirit.com/) . 


POETS

Naomi Shihab Nye (Palestinian American), Lillian  Boraks-Nemetz  (Canada, 
homeland Poland, Holocaust Survivor), Yasushiko  Shigemoto (Japan,  Hiroshima 
Survivor), Alexandre Kimenyi (U.S., homeland Rwanda), Claribel  Alegria  
(Nicaragua, homeland El Salvador), Choman Hardi (England, homeland Kurdistan), 
_Li-Young Lee_ (http://blueflowerarts.com/li.html)  (U.S., Indonesia, homeland  
China), Orlando  Ricardo Menes  (US, birthplace Peru, homeland Cuba), Dunya Mikhail 
(U.S., homeland Iraq),_ Valzhyna Mort _ 
(http://blueflowerarts.com/vmort.html) (U.S., homeland Belarus), Majid  Naficy (U.S.,  homeland Iran), Nguyen Chi 
Thien (U.S., France, homeland Vietnam),  and _Carolyn Forch?_ 
(http://blueflowerarts.com/cforche.html)  (U.S. human rights worker,  translator). NOTE:  
CAROLYN FORCHE CANCELLED due to illness.


TO  REGISTER:  
1)  Email _resiliencespirit at aol.com_ (mailto:resiliencespirit at aol.com)  or
2)  Call Jan Warner 831-622-0152 or
3)  Visit our website: _www.resiliencespirit.com_ 
(http://www.resiliencespirit.com/) 


The cost is $150, which includes meals at The Guthrie Center  and the 
Saturday night poetry reading. Lodging is not included.
$50 for Friday September 15, Pre-conference  Dinner with the poets at the 
Egremont Inn (NOTE: WAITING  LIST for dinner)


The Guthrie Center is a non-profit educational and  cultural center founded 
by Arlo Guthrie. 
4 Van Deusenville Road, Great Barrington, MA 



Alison Granucci, Director
Blue Flower Arts
373 Mabbettsville Road
Millbrook NY 12545
845-677-8559
914-474-1576 cell
845-677-6446 fax
www.blueflowerarts.com
_alison at blueflowerarts.com_ (mailto:alison at blueflowerarts.com) 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/cc49869e/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Poetry Center" <poetryct at email.smith.edu>
Subject: special event in great barrington!
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:37:20 -0400
Size: 14824
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/cc49869e/attachment.mht>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 09:36:33 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:36:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbiest
Message-ID: <26a.26fb2280.32299161@aol.com>

I've published a few books, and every time I've suggested to
the poet that we dispense with blurbs, I get rebuffed. I've never
bought a book based on either what was written or who has 
written on the back cover. Of course it's a phenomenom of 
more recent times that every inch of a book cover must be filled in 
with art / design elements / text. Give us our glut.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/a0a7081a/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 09:43:35 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:43:35 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbiest
In-Reply-To: <26a.26fb2280.32299161@aol.com>
References: <26a.26fb2280.32299161@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609010643k4e6a36e4ka36eab57b3e5dadb@mail.gmail.com>

I *always* judge a book by it's cover. I particularly dislike these
sorts of quotes on the front cover:

"Brilliant!!!" The Hastings Evening Herald Examiner

R

On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've published a few books, and every time I've suggested to
> the poet that we dispense with blurbs, I get rebuffed. I've never
> bought a book based on either what was written or who has
> written on the back cover. Of course it's a phenomenom of
> more recent times that every inch of a book cover must be filled in
> with art / design elements / text. Give us our glut.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
legs... facing the wrong way."


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 09:56:02 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:56:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Taking Kooser's measure
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609010212q3a2d30edv9f31f49fe823b2e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd4.4655965.3221bcfe@aol.com>
	<fde503480608310232x2e87199akcf1764948e5290e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01c6cced$82f15f90$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310434h3b9bdc44i91c1dccdd972f051@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c6ccf6$824c7df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310556s64eec7b9lf00819620816dac5@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6cd0e$ecf1e5b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480608310825m67aade1bjca68f9a65dd5ede0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00b701c6cd1e$638ce990$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480609010212q3a2d30edv9f31f49fe823b2e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609010656k5e0e5758u579c2d8dfef67e55@mail.gmail.com>

Now that the Lord Chamberlain's Blue Pencil has been laid to rest, how
fares the DWEM in the London West End?

http://www.theatre.com/tickets/landing.aspx

Shakespeare: 2 out of 50 plays (both US productions)
Tolkien  - 1
Chaucer - 2

Not bad at all. Although I don't think either Bent, The Vegemite
Tales, Frost/Nixon or many of the others would have survived
unscathed.

Of course this is an unscientific, totally spurious straw-poll.

R

On 9/1/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our conversation presumes that the theatre in the period we are
> discussing is a complete free-market i.e. the theatres were free to
> put on what they wanted, and the audience free to watch [1]. The
> latter's choices has always been pre-selected for them through the
> Lord Chamberlain's Office. How much the various censorship laws
> encouraged pre-censorship ("chilling effects" in the modern jargon) is
> up for debate.  However Shakespeare's permafrost position on the
> boards could be a result of his plays being safe, from the Lord
> Chamberlain's office POV. S's plays have been legally sanctioned for
> the 400 years we're talking about.

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false
legs... facing the wrong way."


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 10:45:11 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:45:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
Message-ID: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 8/30/2006 1:13:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

I'll admit to a  fairly deep distaste for the Bardic Persona, which Gilbert 
appears to have in  spades.  (I heard him read in public once, and almost 
walked out--he  seemed so in love with his own work that there was little room for 
poor me to  join in.)

But that's apart from the poems themselves, really, which at  their best are 
powerful and, yes, stubbornly fierce in a most memorable way.  





I know Jack Gilbert pretty well. I think he really just didn't go out of  his
way to let a poetry career get in the way of living his life. He's  older
now and really can't push himself out front in the world of poetry.  But
I don't think, when he could, he ever wanted to. I think he was never  the 
kind 
of poet who got up in the morning thinking about things he had do  related 
to being a poet: getting published, getting a conference gig, getting  an
academic chair or award, etc. It isn't like that for him. He doesn't  drive
a car but he's traveled the world. He's never owned a house; the sum
of his possessions would fill a one-car garage or storage unit. One  of
my favorite 'Jackisms': "I only need to make enough money to afford  my
own life." Since that life was a fairly modest in terms of  creature comforts
and with no children to support, he worked (gave a reading, did a  conference,
taught a semester here or there) enough for his own upkeep and  little
back-up savings. I don't think he actively resisted the mythology that 
was created by his being absent from 'the scene' for years at a time, 
but he wasn't cultivating that 'reclusive persona' either. He was  just going 
off and living his life. 
 
When he came back into view and was invited to do a big reading, he'd  often 
agree. He enjoyed the limelight of a reading or an award...but he didn't  
live for it. 
I cannot recall a single occasion where he engaged in the least bit of 
self-promotion when it came to getting an award/reading. Doing no
self-promotion isn't the same as promoting the mystique of an  outsider
poet. He was just outside; but he would come in from the cold, so  to 
speak, happily, when circumstance and inclination coincided. 
 
I found it hard to hear that David Graham was off-put by Jack's  reading
style. Of course as a friend and a fan of his work, I'm far from  unbiased,
but I never saw him the way. Yes, he enjoys reading the poems he's written. 
He not one to be self-effacing when reading...but I never saw  any overt 
performance in his reading and I never saw his public readings  as haughty or 
narcissistic. But he did like to 'hold-forth' and to let people in the  
audience
know what he valued and stood for when it came to poetry. And it  wasn't 
a wide-ranging eclecticism or fashionable modes that he was in favor  of.
 
He could be very hard on the work of other poets. (Except for Linda  Gregg
who could do no wrong.) In workshop or critical environment  I've seen him
push people pretty hard. Especially if they weren't writing what he  thought
was 'serious poetry'. Light-hearted wordplayers and  post-modernist 
tricksters, 
in particular, were spared no disdain. Good poets who  were 'trying to do
something different for a change', got an eyebrow beating as  well. 
 
Anyway, I'm glad to see him picking up a few awards late in life.  Bloodaxe
is working on a Selected, I understand, so maybe his poems will find  some 
new readers in the UK and Ireland.
 
Finnegan
 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/e68a4e33/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  1 11:00:10 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:00:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007701c6cdd7$529447f0$baaf3252@ANNY>

A wonderful picture, thank you.

Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 4:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert


  In a message dated 8/30/2006 1:13:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
    I'll admit to a fairly deep distaste for the Bardic Persona, which Gilbert appears to have in spades.  (I heard him read in public once, and almost walked out--he seemed so in love with his own work that there was little room for poor me to join in.)

    But that's apart from the poems themselves, really, which at their best are powerful and, yes, stubbornly fierce in a most memorable way.  


  I know Jack Gilbert pretty well. I think he really just didn't go out of his
  way to let a poetry career get in the way of living his life. He's older
  now and really can't push himself out front in the world of poetry. But
  I don't think, when he could, he ever wanted to. I think he was never the kind 
  of poet who got up in the morning thinking about things he had do related 
  to being a poet: getting published, getting a conference gig, getting an
  academic chair or award, etc. It isn't like that for him. He doesn't drive
  a car but he's traveled the world. He's never owned a house; the sum
  of his possessions would fill a one-car garage or storage unit. One of
  my favorite 'Jackisms': "I only need to make enough money to afford my
  own life." Since that life was a fairly modest in terms of creature comforts
  and with no children to support, he worked (gave a reading, did a conference,
  taught a semester here or there) enough for his own upkeep and little
  back-up savings. I don't think he actively resisted the mythology that 
  was created by his being absent from 'the scene' for years at a time, 
  but he wasn't cultivating that 'reclusive persona' either. He was just going 
  off and living his life. 

  When he came back into view and was invited to do a big reading, he'd often 
  agree. He enjoyed the limelight of a reading or an award...but he didn't live for it. 
  I cannot recall a single occasion where he engaged in the least bit of 
  self-promotion when it came to getting an award/reading. Doing no
  self-promotion isn't the same as promoting the mystique of an outsider
  poet. He was just outside; but he would come in from the cold, so to 
  speak, happily, when circumstance and inclination coincided. 

  I found it hard to hear that David Graham was off-put by Jack's reading
  style. Of course as a friend and a fan of his work, I'm far from unbiased,
  but I never saw him the way. Yes, he enjoys reading the poems he's written. 
  He not one to be self-effacing when reading...but I never saw any overt 
  performance in his reading and I never saw his public readings as haughty or 
  narcissistic. But he did like to 'hold-forth' and to let people in the audience
  know what he valued and stood for when it came to poetry. And it wasn't 
  a wide-ranging eclecticism or fashionable modes that he was in favor of.

  He could be very hard on the work of other poets. (Except for Linda Gregg
  who could do no wrong.) In workshop or critical environment I've seen him
  push people pretty hard. Especially if they weren't writing what he thought
  was 'serious poetry'. Light-hearted wordplayers and post-modernist tricksters, 
  in particular, were spared no disdain. Good poets who were 'trying to do
  something different for a change', got an eyebrow beating as well. 

  Anyway, I'm glad to see him picking up a few awards late in life. Bloodaxe
  is working on a Selected, I understand, so maybe his poems will find some 
  new readers in the UK and Ireland.

  Finnegan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/d1c74abd/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 11:02:41 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:02:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] PIP Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative Poetry 
Message-ID: <c5c.14e9886.3229a591@aol.com>

_http://www.greeninteger.com/green_integer_review/issue_4/Douglas-Messerli-Wha
t-Is-to-Be-Done.htm_ 
(http://www.greeninteger.com/green_integer_review/issue_4/Douglas-Messerli-What-Is-to-Be-Done.htm) 
 
Douglas  Messerli
 
What Is To Be Done? 
Introduction to the forthcoming PIP  Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative 
Poetry in  English
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/2a69dc84/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 11:29:49 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:29:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbiest
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609010643k4e6a36e4ka36eab57b3e5dadb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26a.26fb2280.32299161@aol.com>
	<fde503480609010643k4e6a36e4ka36eab57b3e5dadb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C89BF29921652F-10D0-7A1@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>

Last time I had a book about to come out, I suggested that we do away with hte blurbs. I don't have that many high profile poet friends anyway, and I'd pretty much used up the ones I do have. And blurbs are mostly filler. The publisher didn't agree. as it turned out, only one of the three who agreed to do it got the blurb in on time, so hte book came out with one blurb under a bad photo of me.
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com
Sent: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blurbiest


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
I *always* judge a book by it's cover. I particularly dislike these 
sorts of quotes on the front cover: 
 
"Brilliant!!!" The Hastings Evening Herald Examiner 
 
R 
 
On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> I've published a few books, and every time I've suggested to 
> the poet that we dispense with blurbs, I get rebuffed. I've never 
> bought a book based on either what was written or who has 
> written on the back cover. Of course it's a phenomenom of 
> more recent times that every inch of a book cover must be filled in 
> with art / design elements / text. Give us our glut. 
> Finnegan 
> _______________________________________________ 
> New-Poetry mailing list 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> 
> 
> 
 
-- http://www.badstep.net/ 
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ 
"From the waist downwards, Bloodnok was tattooed with a pair of false 
legs... facing the wrong way." 
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/7e3fcc2f/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep  1 11:46:23 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:46:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ask not for whom the blurbist blurbs
In-Reply-To: <8C89BF29921652F-10D0-7A1@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>
References: <26a.26fb2280.32299161@aol.com>
	<fde503480609010643k4e6a36e4ka36eab57b3e5dadb@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C89BF29921652F-10D0-7A1@MBLK-M22.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1093EDA6-6357-4AC7-8F10-5EDBBD76F544@ripon.edu>

I've never bought a book solely on the basis of a blurb, I don't  
think, but certainly blurbs have often done their job and gotten me  
to open books up when I'm skimming the store shelves or the  
electronic equivalent.  I don't look down my nose at them generally,  
nor do I value them overmuch.  I use blurbs for range-finding; know  
just how much I trust Jorie Graham's effusions, to pick an easy  
example--and know how seldom her taste these days tends to coincide  
with my own.  A book blurbed, say, by Ashbery, Graham, and Donald  
Revell--well, it would be very unlikely to end up in my shopping cart.

*Asking* for blurbs is of course a major pain, and I'd gladly  
dispense with the whole thing just out of embarrassment and sloth.   
Publishers do seem to favor them, though.  I've even written a few  
when asked, and have enjoyed the challenge.

My all-time favorite blurb occurred without any effort on my part,  
when U Mass Press lifted some a couple sentences from an essay I  
published on Robert Francis.  There I am below the photo of Francis,  
nicely sandwiched between Richard Wilbur and Marianne Moore. . . .   
That felt wonderful.



On Sep 1, 2006, at 10:29 AM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote:

> Last time I had a book about to come out, I suggested that we do  
> away with hte blurbs. I don't have that many high profile poet  
> friends anyway, and I'd pretty much used up the ones I do have. And  
> blurbs are mostly filler. The publisher didn't agree. as it turned  
> out, only one of the three who agreed to do it got the blurb in on  
> time, so hte book came out with one blurb under a bad photo of me.
>
>

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/97a12b11/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 11:55:18 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:55:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <007701c6cdd7$529447f0$baaf3252@ANNY>
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
	<007701c6cdd7$529447f0$baaf3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609010855w51149050k1089a91a9cf63513@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>  A wonderful picture, thank you.
>
> Anny
>


I agree, and I hope my own words n sharing my first impressions upon meeting
him did not seem too harsh.   That workshop was a remarkable experience-- a
big part of what I learned though, was how to sort through advice and know
what to use and what to quietly put aside.

Jack had a great deal to say, but could also be a terrible editor if you
were not completely on the same page with him, or even if you were.  It took
some effort later on to rid my poems of what I called "Jackisms"-- syntax or
turns of phrase that sounded just too much like I took a workshop with Jack.


Suzanne Burns
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/43725536/attachment.html>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 11:56:56 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:56:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60609010856l3a11b44iaadf891797df2c28@mail.gmail.com>

I don't personally know the man, but I do know his poetry, and what
you say rings true.  Thank you Finnegan.

- Jim, who likes Gilbert's reading style

On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/30/2006 1:13:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
> I'll admit to a fairly deep distaste for the Bardic Persona, which Gilbert
> appears to have in spades.  (I heard him read in public once, and almost
> walked out--he seemed so in love with his own work that there was little
> room for poor me to join in.)
>
> But that's apart from the poems themselves, really, which at their best are
> powerful and, yes, stubbornly fierce in a most memorable way.
>
>
>
>
> I know Jack Gilbert pretty well. I think he really just didn't go out of his
> way to let a poetry career get in the way of living his life. He's older
> now and really can't push himself out front in the world of poetry. But
> I don't think, when he could, he ever wanted to. I think he was never the
> kind
> of poet who got up in the morning thinking about things he had do related
> to being a poet: getting published, getting a conference gig, getting an
> academic chair or award, etc. It isn't like that for him. He doesn't drive
> a car but he's traveled the world. He's never owned a house; the sum
> of his possessions would fill a one-car garage or storage unit. One of
> my favorite 'Jackisms': "I only need to make enough money to afford my
> own life." Since that life was a fairly modest in terms of creature comforts
> and with no children to support, he worked (gave a reading, did a
> conference,
> taught a semester here or there) enough for his own upkeep and little
> back-up savings. I don't think he actively resisted the mythology that
> was created by his being absent from 'the scene' for years at a time,
> but he wasn't cultivating that 'reclusive persona' either. He was just going
> off and living his life.
>
> When he came back into view and was invited to do a big reading, he'd often
> agree. He enjoyed the limelight of a reading or an award...but he didn't
> live for it.
> I cannot recall a single occasion where he engaged in the least bit of
> self-promotion when it came to getting an award/reading. Doing no
> self-promotion isn't the same as promoting the mystique of an outsider
> poet. He was just outside; but he would come in from the cold, so to
> speak, happily, when circumstance and inclination coincided.
>
> I found it hard to hear that David Graham was off-put by Jack's reading
> style. Of course as a friend and a fan of his work, I'm far from unbiased,
> but I never saw him the way. Yes, he enjoys reading the poems he's written.
> He not one to be self-effacing when reading...but I never saw any overt
> performance in his reading and I never saw his public readings as haughty or
> narcissistic. But he did like to 'hold-forth' and to let people in the
> audience
> know what he valued and stood for when it came to poetry. And it wasn't
> a wide-ranging eclecticism or fashionable modes that he was in favor of.
>
> He could be very hard on the work of other poets. (Except for Linda Gregg
> who could do no wrong.) In workshop or critical environment I've seen him
> push people pretty hard. Especially if they weren't writing what he thought
> was 'serious poetry'. Light-hearted wordplayers and
> post-modernist tricksters,
> in particular, were spared no disdain. Good poets who were 'trying to do
> something different for a change', got an eyebrow beating as well.
>
> Anyway, I'm glad to see him picking up a few awards late in life. Bloodaxe
> is working on a Selected, I understand, so maybe his poems will find some
> new readers in the UK and Ireland.
>
> Finnegan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  1 12:04:03 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:04:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com><007701c6cdd7$529447f0$baaf3252@ANNY>
	<aa458fec0609010855w51149050k1089a91a9cf63513@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c6cde0$3eed5f30$baaf3252@ANNY>

I think I understand what you mean. In Italy there was (he is still alive but I don't think he is still teaching) Vedova (in Italian: widow) at the Academy in Venice. Hords of young kids wanted to learn from him. They were later called "i Vedovini" (the small widows), same style, same story over and over again.

First link I found for you to have an idea:
http://www.arte.go.it/mostre/vedova/niccoli/index.htm

That is how a strong personality/artist usually plays on students.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Suzanne Burns 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert





  On 9/1/06, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
    A wonderful picture, thank you.

    Anny


  I agree, and I hope my own words n sharing my first impressions upon meeting him did not seem too harsh.   That workshop was a remarkable experience-- a big part of what I learned though, was how to sort through advice and know what to use and what to quietly put aside. 

  Jack had a great deal to say, but could also be a terrible editor if you were not completely on the same page with him, or even if you were.  It took some effort later on to rid my poems of what I called "Jackisms"-- syntax or turns of phrase that sounded just too much like I took a workshop with Jack. 

  Suzanne Burns



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/38931d15/attachment.html>

From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Fri Sep  1 12:17:26 2006
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:17:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a small catalog of cultural scripts for poets
Message-ID: <44F85D16.5010405@ilstu.edu>

__________________________________
http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com


Certain groups or cultures can become invested in bonding together in 
collective excitement in order to (1) structure time and (2) avoid 
intimate honesty -- by rehearsing what Eric Berne called "scripts."

The one Simon DeDeo recently described on a listserv -- "seeking status 
through the promise of a new yet unapproachable revitalization of 
poetry" -- is a cultural script for poetry, one played over and over 
through the centuries and with particular strength since about 1914 
(let's say just after Wyndham Lewis's BLAST). A script, in Eric Berne's 
terms, is a transactional game inscribed into a family's behavior 
patterns or into a culture's.

Another term for the game described above is "If it Weren't For Them."

The crying for the reformation of poetry is not really about the
reformation of poetry. It's about getting something (self or group 
aggrandizement) via crying. Thumping the hand at the woeful state of X 
helps create the perception that (a) something is wrong, and (b) we're 
the folks, or I'm the guy (usually a guy), to set this right. In other 
words, crying about the woeful state of X is a surreptitious boast. A 
boast to the effect that either "we/I see what others for years have 
not," or "we/I are the only ones, after years of others, who can fix this."

It's often an excuse to play at having an "Uproar." Sometimes, if
challenged, the game player will try to play "Courtroom." "What do you
mean by saying that I was behaving in X manner? That was not my
intention! Explain yourself, please: I'd really love to know! Maybe I
could learn something from you. But let's talk about my behavior, and 
whose perceptions about it are accurate, yours or mine, or his, etc -- 
and how you think I'm not being good. Yes, now about my behavior, which 
certainly was reasonable...."

Variants of "Courtroom" are "See What You've Done Now" (eg, you upset my 
kid) or "Want Out," in which people begin yelling they want out of a 
conversation but don't really leave.

Another variant is "Whiz Kids," which is like "Revolution," except less 
violent, harsh and destructive. "Whiz Kids" players in "Poetry" promote 
and advertise a new approach, a new style, a new method, as a means of 
solving a problem or resolving a dialectic (Flarf, eg). "Maverick" is a 
particularly male and heteronormative variant of "Whiz Kids," one played 
by an individual and an allied group; eg, Joel Oppenheimer (_Don't Touch 
the Poet_) or Charles Bernstein (_My Way_), Charles Bukowski, et al, and 
its self-destructive variant "Drunkard," played by Jack Kerouac, John 
Berryman, et al., in which it's made known that "the reason I'm drunk is 
I'm successful; my boorish transgressions will be forgiven if you have 
any taste."

A variant of this in younger members is "Young Turk," in which a 
combative young man is, often through the imprimatur of a "Maverick," 
encouraged to play the part of a new transgressor. Some encourage their 
own sons to adopt this painful role, which those sons willingly do if in 
doing so they can briefly draw their father's attention away from his 
own self-fascination.

Needless to say, social permission is needed for all these games. Such 
permission is typically handed out to X, Y, or Z depending upon their 
traits and credibility. "Drunkard," for instance, is often only allowed 
in well established successful members. If it's displayed too early (by 
non-credentialed members) it won't work. It can also be played by some 
who aren't very well know but who nevertheless adopt the role of 
drunkard/transgressor and use self-righteous anger to deepen the role in 
the hopes that drunkenness and transgression alone will be seen as a 
marker of current or future success.

- Gabriel



From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 12:44:05 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:44:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <00a401c6cde0$3eed5f30$baaf3252@ANNY>
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
	<007701c6cdd7$529447f0$baaf3252@ANNY>
	<aa458fec0609010855w51149050k1089a91a9cf63513@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a401c6cde0$3eed5f30$baaf3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609010944h7ffb3c56l42c64eb8274c3148@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>
> First link I found for you to have an idea:
> http://www.arte.go.it/mostre/vedova/niccoli/index.htm
>
> That is how a strong personality/artist usually plays on students.
>


Nice link!

People also say this quite a bit about artists who study with Wolf Kahn and
fall a bit too much under his influence-- they call them "Wolf Pups". This
syndrome is older than the hills I think.

But for heaven's sake who in their right mind wants to be that? Your first
responsibility as a person and artist/poet is to know yourself and be who
you actually are, not take on someone else's voice or follow their recipe.
You have to stand or fall on your own.

I am not suggesting that anyone who worked with Jack did that deliberately--
but I found that taking too much of his advice could easily made my work
sound "Jackish" even in ways I did not anticipate. Small things, like using
the sentence fragment too much. :-)  In the end I needed to get away from
that. When I was finishing my Master's thesis he wanted to help me edit it,
and I  declined the offer-- rightly I think.

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/7eb4fd3c/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 14:10:09 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:10:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
References: <c1d.2df4dd2.3229a177@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609011110l5b43b020ld322202dde947c7b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> I know Jack Gilbert pretty well.

You paint quite a picture... and one that I deeply admire.

c


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  1 14:54:36 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:54:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] SVEN BIRKERTS
Message-ID: <014201c6cdf8$128caaf0$baaf3252@ANNY>

the transformation of self and soul that Birkerts believes operates as a result of exposure to the written word. 

http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/~elmurphy/emurphy/elegies.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/1527d6ae/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 15:11:29 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:11:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
Message-ID: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/2006 12:45:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
queenmouse at gmail.com writes:

I am not  suggesting that anyone who worked with Jack did that deliberately-- 
but I  found that taking too much of his advice could easily made my work 
sound  "Jackish" even in ways I did not anticipate. Small things, like using the  
sentence fragment too much. :-)  In the end I needed to get away from  that. 
When I was finishing my Master's thesis he wanted to help me edit it,  and I  
declined the offer-- rightly I think.  
Suzzane,
I know that as a critic Jack certainly has his blindspots. I think his  great 
virtue as a critic
was that he always made people feel that writing poetry was  an important 
engagement
with the world...and one not to be taken lightly. He didn't want to waste  
his time
with poems that were conceptual in nature or pure products of the  poet's 
imagination. 
I don't think anyone who has been in workshop with a master poet is  entirely 
immune 
from falling under a kind of spell...of being tempted to write toward  that 
master's sensibility.
In Northampton, though it was nominally a peer workshop, everyone  wanted
Jack Gilbert to like his/her poem. 
 
Jack, as we all do, has his contradictions too...he seldom  expressed 
approval or amusement 
at jokey or humorous poetry. But then every so often he'd write one (most  
were not very 
 
successful, to my taste in humor); they'd generally be joke poems  couched as 
parables 
about life or art. The one that would always make me cringe went something 
like (paraphrasing here): "When I hear some people talking about  their
great loves, I think (about the joke) of two cleaning women  looking down 
from an upper floor window, watching a man run in and out  of one building after 
another, desperate to find a bathroom, and one cleaning  woman says to the 
other, 'Lordy, that man do love architecture.'"

 
Speaking of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone  noticed 
that an annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying  
with 
grammatical rules? I'm wondering if the number of young Creative  Writing 
MFAs forced 
(not at gunpoint, but for the tuition abatement or economic survival)  into 
teaching 
Composition courses is having the deleterious effect on some  of our younger 
poets,
making them more conservative in their employment of the language,  less 
likely 
to bend/break the rules of proper grammar. Likely I'm imagining this, but a  
caviling
about the use of a sentence fragment in a poem, by a poet I otherwise  
respect,
prompted me to pose this question.
 
Finnegan
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/942b4c49/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:04:56 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:04:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609011304w4e4b065dr104c934b7c30cfd3@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed
that an annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying
with
grammatical rules?

I have noticed this, and I am not certain if it is due to teaching
composition so much as the influence of teachers who are big on narrative
clarity-- I studied with Stephen Dobyns and Mary Karr at Syracuse
University, and Paul Muldoon at UMass, and all had very strong feelings
about this subject. "A poem should be at least as well-written as prose."


Likely I'm imagining this, but a caviling about the use of a sentence
fragment in a poem, by a poet I otherwise respect, prompted me to pose this
question.

Personally I really like bending grammar and playing with syntax in poetry
to achieve a certain effect, and I think Jack's use of the fragment works
mostly well in his poetry (though I think sometimes it is overdone and comes
across as Booming Bardic).  I wasn't being a grammar snob when I brought
this up.

The only problem I have is that (to my ears, anyway) is that it is a device
that is absolutely hallmark Jack Gilbert-- especially when it is used in a
short pared down poem, and especially if it is overused. It is a huge part
of the sound of his poetry. So much so, that I flinch when I hear the same
patterns say, in Linda Gregg's poetry.

I'm not kidding Jim-- I actually deliberately started writing poems rich in
complex compound sentences with very long lines just to shake out some of
the Jack sounds I absorbed during that time I worked with him.  I'm not
saying this was a bad thing-- it was comical really. I was glad I became
aware of it, though it took Mary Karr calling me the "frag queen" to alert
me to this pattern.

This of course could be just me.  I notice for example that Gerald Stern is
also rather fond of the sentence fragment, but his exclamatory voice and
approach to narrative is so much his own it doesn't have that same effect on
me.

Suzanne Burns
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/9ad188d1/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 16:48:11 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:48:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
Message-ID: <570.6e7d9ed.3229f68b@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
queenmouse at gmail.com writes:

Speaking  of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed  
that an  annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying 
with  
grammatical rules?

I have noticed  this, and I am not certain if it is due to teaching 
composition so much as the  influence of teachers who are big on narrative clarity-- I 
studied with  Stephen Dobyns and Mary Karr at Syracuse University, and Paul 
Muldoon at  UMass, and all had very strong feelings about this subject. "A poem 
should be at least as well-written as  prose."






Suzzane,
That aphorism never made any sense to me. So improbably uttered by  that
Cantos guy who believed that poetry began to atrophy the farther  it got away 
from
music. I guess I've never had any trouble seeing poetry dispense with  the
formality of the proper sentence. Punctuation itself is a kind a pestilence  
when it
comes to poetry. The more I learn of languages other than English  the more
the conventions of our grammar seem arbitrary and capricious. So  little of it
(case endings, plurals, parts of speech, etc.) really important to  conveying 
one's thoughts, carrying over one's meanings, etc. None of it  important to
cadence and rhythm and the other sonic elements we call 'music' in  poetry.
 
If sentence fragments are used often, they'll certainly be recognized  as
a part of one's style; too often and they might become mannerism,  but
what happens for me, as a reader, is that I no longer notice that  language 
element as 'sentence fragment'. It becomes a unit of language bounded  by 
starting capital letter and the ending period. The period, in  poetry, for me 
then is nothing more than speech indicator of a full  pause, versus a 
comma's slight pause. Each could be indicated as easily with  a hyphen
and a dash, or a shorter and longer measure of blank space, being akin 
to verbal road signs.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/49204a1b/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 16:58:15 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:58:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
Message-ID: <c43.144332d.3229f8e7@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
queenmouse at gmail.com writes:

Speaking  of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed  
that an  annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying 
with  
grammatical rules?

I have noticed  this, and I am not certain if it is due to teaching 
composition so much as the  influence of teachers who are big on narrative clarity-- I 
studied with  Stephen Dobyns and Mary Karr at Syracuse University, and Paul 
Muldoon at  UMass, and all had very strong feelings about this subject. "A poem 
should be at least as well-written as  prose."


 
Suzzane,
That aphorism never made any sense to me. So improbably uttered  by the
Cantos guy who believed that poetry began to atrophy the farther it  got away 
from
music. I guess I've never had any trouble seeing poetry  dispense with the
formality of a proper sentence. Punctuation itself is a  kind a pestilence 
when it
comes to poetry. The more I learn of languages  other than English the more
the conventions of our grammar seem arbitrary and  capricious. So little of it
(case endings, plurals, parts of speech, etc.)  really important to conveying 
one's thoughts, carrying over one's meanings,  etc. And not all that 
important to
cadence and rhythm and the other sonic  elements we call 'music' in poetry.

If sentence fragments are used  often, they'll certainly be recognized as
a part of one's style; too often  and they might become mannerism, but
what happens for me, as a reader, is  that I no longer notice that language 
element as 'sentence fragment'. It  becomes a unit of language bounded by 
starting capital letter and the ending  period. The period, in poetry, for me 
then is nothing more than a speech  indicator of a full pause, versus a 
comma's slight pause. Each could be  indicated as easily with a hyphen
and a dash, or a shorter and longer measure  of blank space, being akin 
to verbal road  signs.
Finnegan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/660ff38f/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 17:02:11 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:02:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
Message-ID: <c47.1444c64.3229f9d3@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:59:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Suzzane,



Sorry for misspelling Suzanne (twice). Grammar and spelling...both
bad, very bad.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/46994f73/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:10:03 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:10:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <570.6e7d9ed.3229f68b@aol.com>
References: <570.6e7d9ed.3229f68b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609011410m4cef1fffga8dca4caa9acb999@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Suzanne,
> That aphorism never made any sense to me. So improbably uttered by that
> Cantos guy who believed that poetry began to atrophy the farther it got
> away from
> music. I guess I've never had any trouble seeing poetry dispense with the
> formality of the proper sentence.
>

It has never made sense to me to interpret "well-written" as following the
dictates of the Chicago Manual of Style.  Something that is "well-written"
to me is something that succeeds in creating meaning and finding
truth--meaning and truth which can absolutely be contained in not just
narrative but in the the music of language, the mood it creates, the
resonance of an image, its physical presnece on the page etc.

I'm a technical writer and believe me I am perfectly capable of being the
grammar nerd if it really matters-- but a poem is not a technical manual. I
read poetry because I am looking for something else, and as time goes on my
greater interest is in poets who bend the language and use punctuation and
syntax in ways that awaken me. I have a special love for poems that
skillfully abandon narrative structure and achieve meaning through other
means, music, ambience, etc.

This I think might be my aesthetic reaction *against* what I happen to do
for a living-- and it feels delightfully subversive.  If poetry can't do
that, something is lost.

My thoughts.

Suzanne Burns


-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what
your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and
you have style."

--Quentin Crisp
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/aeaeb7dc/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:11:34 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:11:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <c47.1444c64.3229f9d3@aol.com>
References: <c47.1444c64.3229f9d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609011411p6b461c95i108acbd902f9b686@mail.gmail.com>

Heheheheh.  I corrected it. :-)  I'm finishing up at work and am still in
"editor mode".

S

On 9/1/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:59:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JforJames at aol.com writes:
>
> Suzzane,
>
>  Sorry for misspelling Suzanne (twice). Grammar and spelling...both
> bad, very bad.
> Finnegan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what
your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and
you have style."

--Quentin Crisp
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/5037294b/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  1 17:46:18 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:46:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
References: <570.6e7d9ed.3229f68b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020001c6ce10$0eb8d2b0$baaf3252@ANNY>

I couldn't agree more with Finnegan here. I think 
(I sometimes think)

all what I have tried to do in writing was to try to bring into words the expression of the impression I wanted to express
since by the human being there is no resistance
there is no dull continuance

(I remember this friend of my father, a doc, who measured his blood pressure while comfortably reading a couple of paragraphs and registered the strong oscillations

then there is no meter

unless
you want to write a little lecture for those who have problems in memorizing and you sing-song it nicely so that it is easier for them to remember.
This is what I think.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert


  In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, queenmouse at gmail.com writes:
    Speaking of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed 
    that an annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying with 
    grammatical rules?

    I have noticed this, and I am not certain if it is due to teaching composition so much as the influence of teachers who are big on narrative clarity-- I studied with Stephen Dobyns and Mary Karr at Syracuse University, and Paul Muldoon at UMass, and all had very strong feelings about this subject. "A poem should be at least as well-written as prose."




  Suzzane,
  That aphorism never made any sense to me. So improbably uttered by that
  Cantos guy who believed that poetry began to atrophy the farther it got away from
  music. I guess I've never had any trouble seeing poetry dispense with the
  formality of the proper sentence. Punctuation itself is a kind a pestilence when it
  comes to poetry. The more I learn of languages other than English the more
  the conventions of our grammar seem arbitrary and capricious. So little of it
  (case endings, plurals, parts of speech, etc.) really important to conveying 
  one's thoughts, carrying over one's meanings, etc. None of it important to
  cadence and rhythm and the other sonic elements we call 'music' in poetry.

  If sentence fragments are used often, they'll certainly be recognized as
  a part of one's style; too often and they might become mannerism, but
  what happens for me, as a reader, is that I no longer notice that language 
  element as 'sentence fragment'. It becomes a unit of language bounded by 
  starting capital letter and the ending period. The period, in poetry, for me 
  then is nothing more than speech indicator of a full pause, versus a 
  comma's slight pause. Each could be indicated as easily with a hyphen
  and a dash, or a shorter and longer measure of blank space, being akin 
  to verbal road signs.
  Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/a282bb53/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep  1 17:59:42 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:59:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Well, it does strike me that a rather hefty proportion of the Norton
Anthology of Poetry abides by the conventional grammatical rules.  I'm not
annoyed by Whitman or Yeats, no.  Nor, at this remove from 1914, am I very
startled or impressed by sentence fragments, lacunae, or other modernist
rule-bendings per se.

I'd say conventions are simply agreed upon ways of communication--nothing
inherently good or bad about them, except insofar as abandoning them runs
the obvious risk of miscommunication.  And clearly conventions evolve over
time.  I admit that I blink twice these days when I encounter a poem--free
verse or not--that capitalizes first letters of each line.  It stands out as
retro.

But there's always been poetic license, of course--poets bending the rules
of usage, diction, punctuation, etc.  And that's both normal and in any case
an unstoppable part of poetic development.

I am aware that my own style is, for some, hopelessly retro.  I cling to the
left-hand margin and generally don't fracture grammar, etc.  Nothing for me
either to brag or apologize about, I don't think.

In any case, as a reader I am not bothered by poets writing in nice correct
grammar, unless they're writing badly.  I'm guessing that behind Finnegan's
query is a sense that too much contemporary verse is simply dull exposition,
to his eyes.  It might be better rhythmically and otherwise if more daring,
jazzy, swifter of foot.  With that I'd probably agree.  But Dulness is also
eternal, even in heroic couplets. . . .


On 9/1/06 2:11 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> Speaking of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed
> that an annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying
> with 
> grammatical rules? I'm wondering if the number of young Creative Writing MFAs
> forced 
> (not at gunpoint, but for the tuition abatement or economic survival) into
> teaching 
> Composition courses is having the deleterious effect on some of our younger
> poets,
> making them more conservative in their employment of the language, less likely
> to bend/break the rules of proper grammar. Likely I'm imagining this, but a
> caviling
> about the use of a sentence fragment in a poem, by a poet I otherwise respect,
> prompted me to pose this question.
>  
> Finnegan



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/ffe5cf1b/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  1 17:59:56 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:59:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert
References: <570.6e7d9ed.3229f68b@aol.com>
	<020001c6ce10$0eb8d2b0$baaf3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <023f01c6ce11$f97b96b0$baaf3252@ANNY>

(I remember this friend of my father, a doc, who measured his blood pressure while comfortably reading a couple of paragraphs and registered the strong oscillations

MISTAKE
that was his heart beat
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert


  I couldn't agree more with Finnegan here. I think 
  (I sometimes think)

  all what I have tried to do in writing was to try to bring into words the expression of the impression I wanted to express
  since by the human being there is no resistance
  there is no dull continuance

  (I remember this friend of my father, a doc, who measured his blood pressure while comfortably reading a couple of paragraphs and registered the strong oscillations

  then there is no meter

  unless
  you want to write a little lecture for those who have problems in memorizing and you sing-song it nicely so that it is easier for them to remember.
  This is what I think.


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:48 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gilbert


    In a message dated 9/1/2006 4:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, queenmouse at gmail.com writes:
      Speaking of deploying a 'sentence fragment' in a poem, has anyone noticed 
      that an annoying amount of contemporary poetry is written toward complying with 
      grammatical rules?

      I have noticed this, and I am not certain if it is due to teaching composition so much as the influence of teachers who are big on narrative clarity-- I studied with Stephen Dobyns and Mary Karr at Syracuse University, and Paul Muldoon at UMass, and all had very strong feelings about this subject. "A poem should be at least as well-written as prose."




    Suzzane,
    That aphorism never made any sense to me. So improbably uttered by that
    Cantos guy who believed that poetry began to atrophy the farther it got away from
    music. I guess I've never had any trouble seeing poetry dispense with the
    formality of the proper sentence. Punctuation itself is a kind a pestilence when it
    comes to poetry. The more I learn of languages other than English the more
    the conventions of our grammar seem arbitrary and capricious. So little of it
    (case endings, plurals, parts of speech, etc.) really important to conveying 
    one's thoughts, carrying over one's meanings, etc. None of it important to
    cadence and rhythm and the other sonic elements we call 'music' in poetry.

    If sentence fragments are used often, they'll certainly be recognized as
    a part of one's style; too often and they might become mannerism, but
    what happens for me, as a reader, is that I no longer notice that language 
    element as 'sentence fragment'. It becomes a unit of language bounded by 
    starting capital letter and the ending period. The period, in poetry, for me 
    then is nothing more than speech indicator of a full pause, versus a 
    comma's slight pause. Each could be indicated as easily with a hyphen
    and a dash, or a shorter and longer measure of blank space, being akin 
    to verbal road signs.
    Finnegan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/2959a15c/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 19:05:21 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:05:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
too much contemporary verse is simply dull exposition, to his eyes

For me this is the heart of the matter-- I absolutely felt that way about
that period of time when everyone seemed to be writing the same kind of
narrative expository poem (usually autobiographical or
pseudo-autobiographical) and it was good to see a healthy rebellion against
that.  For me, running in the opposite direction helped my growth.  I don't
think I am the only person who has had that response.

Suzanne Burns
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/66f3016d/attachment.html>

From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Sep  1 19:18:20 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:18:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>

i think i would've agreed with this in 1986, and even up until around  
1996--
but around that time the jorie graham aesthetic kinda merged with the  
"language poetry" aesthetic
(taking kind of the least interesting aspects of both of them,
which generally happens with corporate mergers too)--
and now one has the
simply dull fragment,
alongside (vying with) dull exposition...but that's just the fashion  
biz..
luckily, there's always some others....you just gotta poke around...

On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:

>
>
> On 9/1/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu > wrote:
>
> too much contemporary verse is simply dull exposition, to his eyes
>
> For me this is the heart of the matter-- I absolutely felt that way  
> about that period of time when everyone seemed to be writing the  
> same kind of narrative expository poem (usually autobiographical or  
> pseudo-autobiographical) and it was good to see a healthy rebellion  
> against that.  For me, running in the opposite direction helped my  
> growth.  I don't think I am the only person who has had that response.
>
> Suzanne Burns
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/d4052ab1/attachment.html>

From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Fri Sep  1 19:39:11 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:39:11 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>

It seems to me that after modernism and postmodernism (popomo?) the  
problem with not adhering to basic grammatical rules is that when you  
do deviate, it has no effect. Essentially, a poet who casts standard  
grammatical structures aside is casting away a very important tool,  
the ability to deviate when necessary. Loose grammar was shocking in  
the same way free verse was shocking (talking in loose generalities  
of course), now it's traditional.

On Sep 1, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Chris Stroffolino wrote:

> i think i would've agreed with this in 1986, and even up until  
> around 1996--
> but around that time the jorie graham aesthetic kinda merged with  
> the "language poetry" aesthetic
> (taking kind of the least interesting aspects of both of them,
> which generally happens with corporate mergers too)--
> and now one has the
> simply dull fragment,
> alongside (vying with) dull exposition...but that's just the  
> fashion biz..
> luckily, there's always some others....you just gotta poke around...
>
> On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 9/1/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu > wrote:
>>
>> too much contemporary verse is simply dull exposition, to his eyes
>>
>> For me this is the heart of the matter-- I absolutely felt that  
>> way about that period of time when everyone seemed to be writing  
>> the same kind of narrative expository poem (usually  
>> autobiographical or pseudo-autobiographical) and it was good to  
>> see a healthy rebellion against that.  For me, running in the  
>> opposite direction helped my growth.  I don't think I am the only  
>> person who has had that response.
>>
>> Suzanne Burns
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060901/c04d779e/attachment.html>

From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Sep  2 03:58:53 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:58:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>
	<8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <17ACF0E7-375C-4C4E-A2D4-49355DB9C647@earthlink.net>

I like your point, but one question that keeps coming back to me is  
the "irregular" punctuation of Shakespeare's sonnets and Dickinson's  
poems for instance (just to mention some famous canonical short  
poems, I could mention Blake's longer works as well). It's not that  
Shakesprare and Dickinson aren't highly structured and formalist in  
other ways, but that the question of "grammar" doesn't seem to be as  
central as "the line" etc...


On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:39 PM, steve moore wrote:

> It seems to me that after modernism and postmodernism (popomo?) the  
> problem with not adhering to basic grammatical rules is that when  
> you do deviate, it has no effect. Essentially, a poet who casts  
> standard grammatical structures aside is casting away a very  
> important tool, the ability to deviate when necessary. Loose  
> grammar was shocking in the same way free verse was shocking  
> (talking in loose generalities of course), now it's traditional.
>
> On Sep 1, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
>
>> i think i would've agreed with this in 1986, and even up until  
>> around 1996--
>> but around that time the jorie graham aesthetic kinda merged with  
>> the "language poetry" aesthetic
>> (taking kind of the least interesting aspects of both of them,
>> which generally happens with corporate mergers too)--
>> and now one has the
>> simply dull fragment,
>> alongside (vying with) dull exposition...but that's just the  
>> fashion biz..
>> luckily, there's always some others....you just gotta poke around...
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/1/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu > wrote:
>>>
>>> too much contemporary verse is simply dull exposition, to his eyes
>>>
>>> For me this is the heart of the matter-- I absolutely felt that  
>>> way about that period of time when everyone seemed to be writing  
>>> the same kind of narrative expository poem (usually  
>>> autobiographical or pseudo-autobiographical) and it was good to  
>>> see a healthy rebellion against that.  For me, running in the  
>>> opposite direction helped my growth.  I don't think I am the only  
>>> person who has had that response.
>>>
>>> Suzanne Burns
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/73315abc/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Sep  2 10:58:01 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 09:58:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Grammatical
In-Reply-To: <8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>
	<8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <296DA094-D853-471C-9F77-BCA5646498C7@ripon.edu>

Just to say that "popomo" made my day.  I'm hearing it to the tune of  
"Kokomo," myself. . . .


On Sep 1, 2006, at 6:39 PM, steve moore wrote:

> It seems to me that after modernism and postmodernism (popomo?)


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/720beb2d/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Sep  2 11:16:18 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:16:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Popomo Blues
In-Reply-To: <8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
References: <c35.156d031.3229dfe1@aol.com> <C11E177E.B1A0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609011605g1baf323aj7b775bc68741afc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F023858-8D9C-4329-94C6-13267ED53115@earthlink.net>
	<8E652AD1-64B4-468C-A268-B8F067E0BEF7@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <E830CCC9-7C25-45AD-9FE4-CD4176220EDD@ripon.edu>

Along these lines, I wonder if there's been any discussion hereabouts  
about Tony Hoagland's recent essay in *Poetry*, "Fear of Narrative  
and the Skittery Poem of Our Moment"?  Plenty of provocation and  
grist in it, whatever side of various fences you have your garden.

Here's one provocation.  He's been talking about various examples of  
dissociative poems, and refers here to two by G. G. Waldrep  and  
Rachel H. Simon.

"These may seem like disproportionately heavy judgments to apply to a  
few playful butterfly poems fluttering by in the aesthetic breeze,  
but isn't their self-conscious lack of consequence part of the  
problem? Perhaps, in their deliberate intention to escape the  
confinement of one system, they have also accidentally escaped  
another. Perhaps, in their effort to circumvent linearity, or logic,  
or obviousness, they have eluded representing anything but Attitude ?  
one of the familiar problems of modern American culture.

Would it be so very inaccurate or unfair to say that a poem like  
"Improvisation" or "Watercooler Tarmac," in the charming "democracy"  
of their dissociation, have a passive-aggressive relation to meaning?  
To say that, despite a certain charm, the coy ellipticism of these  
poems signifies a skepticism about the possibilities for poetic  
depth, earnestness, even about feeling itself?"



On Sep 1, 2006, at 6:39 PM, steve moore wrote:

> It seems to me that after modernism and postmodernism (popomo?) the  
> problem with not adhering to basic grammatical rules is that when  
> you do deviate, it has no effect. Essentially, a poet who casts  
> standard grammatical structures aside is casting away a very  
> important tool, the ability to deviate when necessary. Loose  
> grammar was shocking in the same way free verse was shocking  
> (talking in loose generalities of course), now it's traditional.


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/d949d764/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep  2 14:45:37 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:45:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
Message-ID: <24a.7ccc429.322b2b51@aol.com>

 
I think what Chris says is close to my thinking re grammar and poetry, if  I'm
not misreading him. Grammar doesn't seem important when it comes to  what 
makes a poem. 
 
Here's a more philosophical question: Do we think in tense?
 
Finnegan
 
In a message dated 9/2/2006 3:59:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:

like  your point, but one question that keeps coming back to me is the 
"irregular"  punctuation of Shakespeare's sonnets and Dickinson's poems for instance 
(just  to mention some famous canonical short poems, I could mention Blake's 
longer  works as well). It's not that Shakesprare and Dickinson aren't highly  
structured and formalist in other ways, but that the question of "grammar"  
doesn't seem to be as central as "the line" etc...  




On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:39 PM, steve moore wrote:


It seems to me that after modernism and  postmodernism (popomo?) the problem 
with not adhering to basic  grammatical rules is that when you do deviate, it 
has no effect.  Essentially, a poet who casts standard grammatical structures 
aside is  casting away a very important tool, the ability to deviate when 
necessary.  Loose grammar was shocking in the same way free verse was shocking 
(talking  in loose generalities of course), now it's  traditional.





 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/7e93abe1/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep  2 15:19:21 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:19:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed
Message-ID: <bf2.32cd64f.322b3339@aol.com>

_http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/) 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/23119315/attachment.html>

From millb at aol.com  Sat Sep  2 16:08:40 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 16:08:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed
In-Reply-To: <bf2.32cd64f.322b3339@aol.com>
References: <bf2.32cd64f.322b3339@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C89CE2B7A1C808-F78-FA7@FWM-R09.sysops.aol.com>

 
I am looking for any recommendations (from this list) of Japanese poets, currently writing in English.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed


http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060902/d5d090f9/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep  3 11:02:43 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:02:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
References: <24a.7ccc429.322b2b51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c6cf6a$02cbc6f0$768e3052@ANNY>

colorful be'es

I will was when be
without having been would have
being to be was I am
I have been had I 
be 
will be being I am and having been
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:45 PM


  I think what Chris says is close to my thinking re grammar and poetry, if I'm
  not misreading him. Grammar doesn't seem important when it comes to what 
  makes a poem. 

  Here's a more philosophical question: Do we think in tense?

  Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/a69f66b9/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 12:56:10 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 12:56:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
Message-ID: <414.95b7340.322c632a@aol.com>

"We  must learn to parse sentences and to analyse the grammar of our text, 
for, as  Roman Jakobson has taught us, there is no access to the grammar of 
poetry, to  the nerve and sinew of the poem, if one is blind to the poetry of 
grammar",  George Steiner, "No Passion Spent: Essays  1978-1995"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/ac975524/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 13:07:58 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:07:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grammatical
Message-ID: <457.6e07e800.322c65ee@aol.com>

 
[John]Clare felt robbed of his language and complained that ?grammar in  
learning is like Tyranny in government?. His publisher, John Taylor, urged him  to 
get rid of oral ?provincialisms? in his poetry?for example to substitute  ?
gush?d? for ?gulsh?d? or drop ?himsen?. Taylor edited, reshaped and 
sometimes  rewrote Clare?s unpunctuated poems so that Clare felt robbed of his ties 
to the  land and to his native speech-community.  
--Tom  Paulin, ?Tracking The Wing Dog?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/ae904229/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep  3 13:31:12 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:31:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
References: <457.6e07e800.322c65ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c6cf7e$c5feb1f0$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Here's one of our elder statesmen, probably not considered often enough these days, and he fits right into our grammar discussion. Brad Leithauser, in the NY Times, on W. D. Snodgrass.


NOT FOR SPECIALISTS 
New and Selected Poems. 
By W. D. Snodgrass. 

251 pp. BOA Editions. Paper, $21.95. 

W. D. SNODGRASS?S sharply titled first book of poems, ?Heart?s Needle,? drew blood. Its controlled, intricate stanzas spoke of loss and dislocation with irresistible urgency. The book appeared in 1959, the year its author turned 33, and it won him a Pulitzer Prize. It caused a great stir among poets of a slightly older generation (Lowell, Jarrell, Bishop), as their letters demonstrate, and was a key book for a subsequent generation of aspiring poets, as my memories of creative writing classes taken in the 70?s attest. My hardcover copy, in its blood-red dustjacket, was printed some 20 years after the book?s initial appearance. It?s a 17th printing. 

?Heart?s Needle? was followed by another book of controlled and intricate stanzas, ?After Experience,? which was, if perhaps not quite so arresting, more richly varied. And what did Snodgrass do after ?After?? He effectively went underground for many years ? under concrete. He wrote ?The Fuehrer Bunker,? a sequence of verse monologues chronicling the final days of the Nazi central command in their bomb shelter ? as grim and grotesquely unrepentant an environment as can be imagined. The various books that followed, often published by small presses and often in collaboration with the painter DeLoss McGraw, were notable for their hymns to the natural world. In sum, a curious career.
And a marvelous one, as ?Not for Specialists: New and Selected Poems? reminds us. Snodgrass published an earlier selected poems nearly 20 years ago, but this fuller edition, coinciding with his 80th birthday, clarifies as never before the range of his accomplishment.

Snodgrass ? it must be said ? can be a frustrating poet. Like Marianne Moore, like W. H. Auden, he is an erratic punctuator, creating a level of uncertainty only exacerbated by the slew of typos in ?Not for Specialists.? It?s one thing to ask about a poet, What does he mean by this? It?s another to have to inquire, Does he mean what he actually says? 

His penchant for sentence fragments (no other major poet of our time relies so heavily on them) can also be off-putting. At times, the result is wonderfully dramatic ? as of a door closing abruptly in the faces of readers more nosily inquisitive than they should be. But where a reader goes struggling through dense syntax in search of a verb and meets in its place a mere period, the effect can be deflating. Even so, all such qualifications happily dissolve before Snodgrass?s finest work ? poems like ?April Inventory,? ?A Friend,? ?Viewing the Body? or the ?Heart?s Needle? sequence, which belongs, with Yeats?s ?Prayer for My Daughter? and Frost?s ?Master Speed,? among the 20th century?s most touching poetic meditations on father-daughter dealings.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/1e6cc9a7/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 13:36:08 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:36:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
Message-ID: <547.62e59e00.322c6c88@aol.com>

I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs (Jorie  
Graham, 
Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc), the  Greasers(Paul 
Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae Armentrout, etc), and  the 
folks who think that there is a difference between a Soc and a Greaser  but 
who claim to be neither one nor the other(Bill Knott, Dean Young, David  
Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in highschool,  
kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't have any friends. Or at  
least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease might  have.

(clipped from a post to the Poetics List)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/405d3314/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 13:56:22 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:56:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
Message-ID: <c4b.184b40d.322c7146@aol.com>

 
Snodgrass ? it must be said ? can be a frustrating poet. Like Marianne  
Moore, like W. H. Auden, he is an erratic punctuator, creating a level of  
uncertainty only exacerbated by the slew of typos in ?Not for Specialists.?  It?s 
one thing to ask about a poet, What does he mean by this? It?s another to  have 
to inquire, Does he mean what he actually says?  
His penchant for sentence fragments (no other major poet of our time relies  
so heavily on them) can also be off-putting. At times, the result is  
wonderfully dramatic ? as of a door closing abruptly in the faces of readers  more 
nosily inquisitive than they should be. But where a reader goes  struggling 
through dense syntax in search of a verb and meets in its place a  mere period, the 
effect can be deflating.


    Evidently Brad Leithauser had also read few of those  poets given the 
evidence of his Seamus Heaney review published recently in The New York Times 
Book Review (Sunday,  July 16, 2006). It seems almost beyond belief that a critic 
at the beginning of  the 21st century, after 100 years in which all but the 
most  traditional of poets writing in English have eschewed end-line rhyme, 
could  begin a review by asserting ?I sometimes think there?s no more reliable 
way of  initially entering a poet?s private domain than by examining what he or 
she  rhymes with what.? Only a handful of contemporary poets, in fact, might 
reveal  themselves under Leithauser?s criteria. How many poets in the Gertrude 
Stein  volumes, I wonder, might reveal their ?private domain? through rhyme? 
Is there  one?
 
Douglas Messerli
What Is To Be Done?
 
Introduction to the forthcoming PIP Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative  
Poetry in English

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/4471ff90/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 14:42:58 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:42:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
Message-ID: <52d.80e3437.322c7c32@aol.com>

Another thought on this subject: Think if we asked our playwrights
to compose dialogue in proper sentences?
 
Mamet could go probably go three full acts without a complete  sentence...
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/cc6b8368/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Sun Sep  3 17:19:51 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:19:51 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
In-Reply-To: <547.62e59e00.322c6c88@aol.com>
References: <547.62e59e00.322c6c88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCFEB874-50B3-41A9-9708-667727E8380B@bigpond.com>

And Muldoon? Where would you place him?

On 04/09/2006, at 3:36 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs  
> (Jorie Graham,
> Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc), the  
> Greasers(Paul Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae  
> Armentrout, etc), and the
> folks who think that there is a difference between a Soc and a  
> Greaser but who claim to be neither one nor the other(Bill Knott,  
> Dean Young, David
> Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in  
> highschool, kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't  
> have any friends. Or at
> least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease  
> might have.
> (clipped from a post to the Poetics List)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/8c36a667/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Sun Sep  3 17:23:31 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:23:31 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
In-Reply-To: <c4b.184b40d.322c7146@aol.com>
References: <c4b.184b40d.322c7146@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B18E63BE-12DF-46E9-B7FE-648F21185CD7@bigpond.com>

Leithhauser's comment is ludicrous. Back to Muldoon again. What would  
Leithauser make of him, who can rhyme
rock with crow, and get away with it? What kind of hellish private  
domain would he define, in Muldoon's collected?


On 04/09/2006, at 3:56 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Snodgrass ? it must be said ? can be a frustrating poet. Like  
> Marianne Moore, like W. H. Auden, he is an erratic punctuator,  
> creating a level of uncertainty only exacerbated by the slew of  
> typos in ?Not for Specialists.? It?s one thing to ask about a poet,  
> What does he mean by this? It?s another to have to inquire, Does he  
> mean what he actually says?
>
> His penchant for sentence fragments (no other major poet of our  
> time relies so heavily on them) can also be off-putting. At times,  
> the result is wonderfully dramatic ? as of a door closing abruptly  
> in the faces of readers more nosily inquisitive than they should  
> be. But where a reader goes struggling through dense syntax in  
> search of a verb and meets in its place a mere period, the effect  
> can be deflating.
>
>     Evidently Brad Leithauser had also read few of those poets  
> given the evidence of his Seamus Heaney review published recently  
> in The New York Times Book Review (Sunday, July 16, 2006). It seems  
> almost beyond belief that a critic at the beginning of the 21st  
> century, after 100 years in which all but the most traditional of  
> poets writing in English have eschewed end-line rhyme, could begin  
> a review by asserting ?I sometimes think there?s no more reliable  
> way of initially entering a poet?s private domain than by examining  
> what he or she rhymes with what.? Only a handful of contemporary  
> poets, in fact, might reveal themselves under Leithauser?s  
> criteria. How many poets in the Gertrude Stein volumes, I wonder,  
> might reveal their ?private domain? through rhyme? Is there one?
>
> Douglas Messerli
> What Is To Be Done?
>
> Introduction to the forthcoming PIP Gertrude Stein Awards in  
> Innovative Poetry in English
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/c75217a1/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Sep  3 18:32:32 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 18:32:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
References: <547.62e59e00.322c6c88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a301c6cfa8$da40c110$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs (Jorie Graham, 
  Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc), the Greasers(Paul Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae Armentrout, etc), and the 
  folks who think that there is a difference between a Soc and a Greaser but who claim to be neither one nor the other(Bill Knott, Dean Young, David 
  Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in highschool, kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't have any friends. Or at 
  least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease might have.

  (clipped from a post to the Poetics List)
  Yeeks, a taxonomy has snuck into new-poetry without my awareness.  Waz goin' on?  Can you explain your terms, James--I can't find any post where you did, and I have trouble figuring out what you might mean by them.  

  --Bob G.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/c2302cd5/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 20:03:30 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:03:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
Message-ID: <502.575a399.322cc752@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/3/2006 6:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs (Jorie  
Graham, 
Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc), the  Greasers(Paul 
Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae Armentrout, etc),  and the 
folks who think that there is a difference between a Soc and a  Greaser but 
who claim to be neither one nor the other(Bill Knott, Dean Young,  David 
Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in  highschool, 
kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't have any  friends. Or at 
least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a  Grease might have.

(clipped from a post to the Poetics List)
Yeeks, a taxonomy has snuck into new-poetry without my  awareness.  Waz goin' 
on?  Can you explain your terms, James--I  can't find any post where you did, 
and I have trouble figuring out what you  might mean by them.   
--Bob G.  



Bob, sorry not to explain fully...that's not mine. I just snipped that  bit 
off of the Poetics List because I found it an amusing way of looking at  the 
world of contemporary poetry...
a novel take on 'schools of poetry'. 
 
Finnegan
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/dd7d4dd6/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep  3 20:17:25 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:17:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
In-Reply-To: <502.575a399.322cc752@aol.com>
References: <502.575a399.322cc752@aol.com>
Message-ID: <44FB7095.3060202@myuw.net>

it was my innovation. gabe gudding was posting about social scripts on the poetics listserv, and so i thought i'd try my own hand at taxonomizing. The 
Outsiders seemed like teh obvious choice, although I honestly think that the breakfast club allows for a more sophisticated analysis.
JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/3/2006 6:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
> 
>     Yeeks, a taxonomy has snuck into new-poetry without my awareness. 
>     Waz goin' on?  Can you explain your terms, James--I can't find any
>     post where you did, and I have trouble figuring out what you might
>     mean by them. 
> 
>     --Bob G.

> Bob, sorry not to explain fully...that's not mine. I just snipped that 
> bit off of the Poetics List because I found it an amusing way of looking 
> at the world of contemporary poetry...
> a novel take on 'schools of poetry'.
>  
> Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 20:54:49 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:54:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
Message-ID: <56f.48ec291.322cd359@aol.com>

 
_http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html_ 
(http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html) 
American Poetry in the New Century 
by John Barr

 
The need for something new is evident. Contemporary poetry's  striking 
absence from the public dialogues of our day, from the high school  classroom, from 
bookstores, and from mainstream media, is evidence of a people  in whose mind 
poetry is missing and unmissed. You can count on the fingers of  one hand the 
bookstores in this country that are known for their poetry  collections. A 
century ago our newspapers commonly ran poems in their pages;  fifty years ago 
the larger papers regularly reviewed new books of poetry. Today  one almost 
never sees a poem in a newspaper; and the new poetry collections  reviewed in the 
New York Times Book Review are down to a few a year. A  general, interested 
public is poetry's foremost need.  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/303ac140/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep  3 20:56:28 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:56:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <56f.48ec291.322cd359@aol.com>
References: <56f.48ec291.322cd359@aol.com>
Message-ID: <44FB79BC.1050202@myuw.net>

I think this stuff is a big red herring. people get plenty of poetry. it's just now a days they get it from pop music rather than from books.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html
> American Poetry in the New Century
> by John Barr
>  
> The need for /something/ new is evident. Contemporary poetry's striking 
> absence from the public dialogues of our day, from the high school 
> classroom, from bookstores, and from mainstream media, is evidence of a 
> people in whose mind poetry is missing and unmissed. You can count on 
> the fingers of one hand the bookstores in this country that are known 
> for their poetry collections. A century ago our newspapers commonly ran 
> poems in their pages; fifty years ago the larger papers regularly 
> reviewed new books of poetry. Today one almost never sees a poem in a 
> newspaper; and the new poetry collections reviewed in the /New York 
> Times Book Review/ are down to a few a year. A general, interested 
> public is poetry's foremost need.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Sep  3 21:15:16 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:15:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
References: <502.575a399.322cc752@aol.com> <44FB7095.3060202@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <00c001c6cfbf$95876760$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think I'm getting it--the socs are the socialites and the greases the 
underclass?  A taxonomy based on social status rather than techniques or 
subject matter or whatever.  Yes?

--Bob G.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide


> it was my innovation. gabe gudding was posting about social scripts on the 
> poetics listserv, and so i thought i'd try my own hand at taxonomizing. 
> The Outsiders seemed like teh obvious choice, although I honestly think 
> that the breakfast club allows for a more sophisticated analysis.
> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 9/3/2006 6:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>>
>>     Yeeks, a taxonomy has snuck into new-poetry without my awareness. Waz 
>> goin' on?  Can you explain your terms, James--I can't find any
>>     post where you did, and I have trouble figuring out what you might
>>     mean by them. --Bob G.
>
>> Bob, sorry not to explain fully...that's not mine. I just snipped that 
>> bit off of the Poetics List because I found it an amusing way of looking 
>> at the world of contemporary poetry...
>> a novel take on 'schools of poetry'.
>>  Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep  3 21:19:57 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 18:19:57 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
In-Reply-To: <00c001c6cfbf$95876760$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <502.575a399.322cc752@aol.com> <44FB7095.3060202@myuw.net>
	<00c001c6cfbf$95876760$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <44FB7F3D.2000908@myuw.net>

basically. social status as determined by economic status, with not a little of my tongue between my molars.

Bob Grumman wrote:
> I think I'm getting it--the socs are the socialites and the greases the 
> underclass?  A taxonomy based on social status rather than techniques or 
> subject matter or whatever.  Yes?
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" <jfq at myuw.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
> 
> 
>> it was my innovation. gabe gudding was posting about social scripts on 
>> the poetics listserv, and so i thought i'd try my own hand at 
>> taxonomizing. The Outsiders seemed like teh obvious choice, although I 
>> honestly think that the breakfast club allows for a more sophisticated 
>> analysis.
>> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 9/3/2006 6:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>>> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>>>
>>>     Yeeks, a taxonomy has snuck into new-poetry without my awareness. 
>>> Waz goin' on?  Can you explain your terms, James--I can't find any
>>>     post where you did, and I have trouble figuring out what you might
>>>     mean by them. --Bob G.
>>
>>
>>> Bob, sorry not to explain fully...that's not mine. I just snipped 
>>> that bit off of the Poetics List because I found it an amusing way of 
>>> looking at the world of contemporary poetry...
>>> a novel take on 'schools of poetry'.
>>>  Finnegan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 21:26:25 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:26:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another analogy to explain the aesthetic divide
Message-ID: <581.49033fa.322cdac1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/3/2006 9:15:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

I think  I'm getting it--the socs are the socialites and the greases the  
underclass?  A taxonomy based on social status rather than techniques  or 
subject matter or whatever.  Yes?


Jason I'm sure can explain his analogy better...but I read it as.the  
acceptable
(got their haircuts at the mall and clothes at the Gap) vs.  the unaccepted 
(those 
trying to be outside the normative; too many tattoos and excessive  
piercings). 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/a71ec636/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep  3 23:06:54 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:06:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
References: <56f.48ec291.322cd359@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c6cfcf$3030eb10$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

It's bad, but it's not as bad as you think. I run a bulletin board on the internet for discussion of news issues, and the people who post there are not po-biz types, not academics, not slammers, not nothin' that we're told the entire poetry audience is. But there are people who love Carolyn Forche -- and not just "The Country Between Us." Every now and then I'll do something like -- as I did today -- post something like Snodgrass's "April Inventory," and get a response like 

Wonderful poem!!! I read it many years ago but barely remembered it. I never could have connected it to the author's name. Thanks for posting that, Mole.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:54 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'


  http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html
  American Poetry in the New Century 
  by John Barr

  The need for something new is evident. Contemporary poetry's striking absence from the public dialogues of our day, from the high school classroom, from bookstores, and from mainstream media, is evidence of a people in whose mind poetry is missing and unmissed. You can count on the fingers of one hand the bookstores in this country that are known for their poetry collections. A century ago our newspapers commonly ran poems in their pages; fifty years ago the larger papers regularly reviewed new books of poetry. Today one almost never sees a poem in a newspaper; and the new poetry collections reviewed in the New York Times Book Review are down to a few a year. A general, interested public is poetry's foremost need. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060903/1ccf9fdc/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Sep  4 07:55:32 2006
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:55:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed
References: <bf2.32cd64f.322b3339@aol.com>
	<8C89CE2B7A1C808-F78-FA7@FWM-R09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e101c6d019$0794f440$830a9942@Helen>

Yorifumi Yaguchi

he also translated Bill Stafford into Japanese 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: millb at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed



  I am looking for any recommendations (from this list) of Japanese poets, currently writing in English.
   
  -----Original Message-----
  From: JforJames at aol.com
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Sent: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 12:19 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP 2006, blurb reviewed


  http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/86d84e1d/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep  4 10:17:34 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:17:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote of the day
Message-ID: <007501c6d02c$de08e0a0$a8ad3452@ANNY>

"The most wasted of all days is one without laughter." 
  - ee cummings



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/37c56013/attachment.html>

From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 10:37:48 2006
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:37:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Labor Day Pleasures:  MiPOesias
In-Reply-To: <007501c6d02c$de08e0a0$a8ad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20060904143748.68963.qmail@web83109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

MiPOesias (http://www.mipoesias.com)  --  NEW WORK BY:
   
   
  * Sam Rasnake ? ?No Direction Home? and ?Politics of Desperation?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/rasnake_sam.html 
   
  * Justin Marks ? ?Integrated Systems Deliver Economy of Scale? and ?Product Distribution Can Be Complex?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/marks_justin.html 
   
  * Dan Coffey ?  ?Know Where They Stand,? ?If a Woman,? and ?Channeled?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/coffey_dan.html 
   
  * Joshua Marie Wilkinson ? from ?The Book of Falling Asleep and Snow?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/wilkinson_joshua_marie.html 
   
  * Janet Holmes ? from ?F2F?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/holmes_janet.html 
   
  * Chris Young ? ?Portrait of Myself on a Day Without Birds Without Anything Answering, Signed Steven? and ?Near the Flashing Sign There Are Legs, Looks Like New Shoes, Your Color?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/young_chris.html 
   
  * Michael Rerick ? ?6,? ?7? and ?11?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/rerick_michael.html 
   
  * Laura Ciraolo ? ?Split Symmetry? and ?Grammarye?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/ciraolo_laura.html 
   
  * Nannette Rayman Rivera ? ?Edna Pontellier Left at the Altar? and ?Stifling?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/rivera_rayman_nannette.html 
   
  * Jordan Stempleman ? ?After is Personal?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/stempleman_jordan.html 
   
  * William E. Stobb ? ?Crow?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/stobb_william_e.html 
   
  * Laura Levin ? ?drawing room?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/levin_laura.html 
   
  * Alveraz Ricardez ? ?bunny slippers and dung?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/ricardez_alveraz.html 
   
  * Rohith Sundararman ? ?I Couldn?t Meet Her That Day? and ?Street Life?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/sundararaman_rohith.html 
   
  * Letitia Trent ? ?Schooling,? ?Listening Avalanche Poem? and ?Love Poem?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/trent_l.html 
   
  * Simon DeDeo ? ?This feeling is calling my name?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/DEDEO_SIMON.html 
   
  * Dan Hoy ? ?Former Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce,? ?The Buffalo? and ?Don?t Forget the Cocaine?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/hoy_dan.html 
   
  * P.F. Potvin ? ?Hopscotching the Shadows,? ?Number Cats in the Hospital,? ?Caught in the Mexican Percent? and ?A Child to Behave?
  http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/potvin_pf.html   
   
   
  We hope you enjoy and Happy Labor Day!
   
   
   
  Amy King and Didi Menendez
  http://www.mipoesias.com
  http://miporeadingseries.blogspot.com/
  http://www.miporadio.com/
   
   
   
   
   

 			
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/de396d89/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 12:07:06 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:07:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <44FB79BC.1050202@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <C121B95A.B254%grahamd@ripon.edu>



> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>> http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html
>> American Poetry in the New Century
>> by John Barr
>>  
>> The need for /something/ new is evident. Contemporary poetry's striking
>> absence from the public dialogues of our day, from the high school
>> classroom, from bookstores, and from mainstream media, is evidence of a
>> people in whose mind poetry is missing and unmissed.

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




I suspect I've probably posted this poem of mine before.  Here it is again.
It does seem as though we're addicted to mourning poetry's perpetual death.
. . .



On The Reported Death Of Poetry


. . . it was during the 1950's that poetry last had this religious aura.

            --Joseph Epstein, "Who Killed Poetry?"

Look, I've brought a little gift for you,
Poetry?bit of seashell worn smooth
as a lip; and more to come, lint
on a windowsill, soundings
of woodthrush at dusk, lawnmowers
distant as the music of the spheres. . . .

Poetry, only you can tie such bootlaces,
only you witness mudflakes
shaken off by the dog, snatch of Bach
fading under the announcer's
cheerful catastrophes.

I bring you the swish of a nightgown
to the floor, cool drift of cloud
over one grave, the moment when
a boy's liquid nattering
first coalesces into a sentence.

I bring you valediction
and animal blurt, I commend
you to God in a whirlwind
and the squirrel-chitter rhythms
of Thelonious Monk:  Nutty,  Blue
Sphere, and Ugly Beauty above all.

Poetry, you've died so many times,
each age preceded by a better, giants
of utterance walking profligate earth.
You would think we'd tire
of the visionary funeral, but here
we come to the wake in our shiny
black suits, now we loosen our ties
and, as the first fire of scotch
warms our throats, begin again
the old stories, fruit-heavy bough
and golden stranger at the door.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/b1a1504c/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 12:10:28 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:10:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
In-Reply-To: <c4b.184b40d.322c7146@aol.com>
References: <c4b.184b40d.322c7146@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609040910r7189cca7ha552523c34371a16@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like simple rhetorical flourish to me. I suspect he meant that
comment to apply only to poets who do employ rhyme, the consequence of
which is ambiguous: does it mean he hasn't been able to find a simple
way "into" poets who don't rhyme or that he believes those poets are
by definition simply less accessible?

c


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 12:15:53 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:15:53 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <C121B95A.B254%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <44FB79BC.1050202@myuw.net> <C121B95A.B254%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609040915y724e31ebr7082b935f6838468@mail.gmail.com>

Two questions:

If-- for the sake of discussion-- pop music is the primary vehicle for
poetry today, isn't that pretty sad? I'm a fan of a lot of pop music,
but as poetry? Not so much.

And David G-- in your estimation is there EVER any variation on
quality over time when it comes to poetry? Granted, the cries that
poetry is dead are constant, but doesn't it seem like some years--
even decades-- are much more fulfilling than others? It almost defies
logic to think otherwise-- imagine the amazing balance where every
poet who exits the scene is balanced by one coming in of exactly the
same quality, skill, and passion. But I guess it could happen... or
you could be exceedingly good at finding the bright side :)

c


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 12:19:56 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:19:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglect
Message-ID: <C121BC5C.B258%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Has anyone noted the brief essay by Kevin Prufer on neglected poets?

http://www.gtweekly.com/arts/story.2006-08-30.0590465514

Very nice to see both Robert Francis and Laura Jensen getting some well
deserved attention.  Francis is in a number of anthologies, of course, but
his reputation has never been as high as I think it should be.

Dunstan Thompson I'd never heard of.  Anyone have his work on their shelves?

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 12:28:45 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:28:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0609040915y724e31ebr7082b935f6838468@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C121BE6D.B25D%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/4/06 11:15 AM, "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:

> And David G-- in your estimation is there EVER any variation on
> quality over time when it comes to poetry? Granted, the cries that
> poetry is dead are constant, but doesn't it seem like some years--
> even decades-- are much more fulfilling than others? It almost defies
> logic to think otherwise-- imagine the amazing balance where every
> poet who exits the scene is balanced by one coming in of exactly the
> same quality, skill, and passion. But I guess it could happen... or
> you could be exceedingly good at finding the bright side :)
> 
> c

1.  Yes, I'm pretty good at finding a bright side.  Look at my own so-called
career!

2.  Sure, there are fallow periods. Hard to discern them accurately except
historically, of course.  Barr's right about the Georgian poets, for the
most part.  But he is more sure that we live in a new Georgian era than I
am, and in any event, it's not a judgment that he or I will live to make.

After all, Swinburne did not think that he would be mostly forgotten, did
he?  and his many fans likely didn't think that they lived in a particularly
unrich era of poetry.

We just don't know.  Seems to me that we can say that the recurrent eulogies
for poetry's demise have proven premature so far.  Often hilariously so.
Donald Hall or someone like that has some fun in an essay quoting someone's
Poetry-Is-Dead diatribe from early in the 20th century, and then drily
noting who was alive & writing at the time: you know, forgotten mediocrities
like Wallace Stevens and T.S. Eliot.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  4 13:35:52 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:35:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <007501c6d02c$de08e0a0$a8ad3452@ANNY>
References: <007501c6d02c$de08e0a0$a8ad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <F94B9509-97A5-44EE-9694-F9F1D6188665@earthlink.net>

Pretty damn close to Carlos Mencia's
"If you ain't laughing, you ain't living."

Not close at all to W. C. Fields (below).

Hal

"Start every day off with a smile,
  and get it over with."
  		 --W. C. Fields

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 4, 2006, at 10:17 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> "The most wasted of all days is one without laughter."
>   - ee cummings
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/87013260/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Sep  4 13:46:20 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 12:46:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
Message-ID: <20060904174620.DC9502E8003@smapp00.siteprotect.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/91355c5e/attachment.html>

From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Mon Sep  4 13:52:43 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:52:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <C121BE6D.B25D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C121BE6D.B25D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <5C71E608-59EF-45C7-AD3E-C3CD0464D4C9@uaf.edu>

>  " Sure, there are fallow periods."

Of course, this is all generational. One generations fallow period is  
another generation's bounty. Poets are discovered, forgotten, then  
rediscovered eternally. Who knows, 100 years from now, Swinburne mat  
be rediscovered as the greatest poet of the age.



From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 14:44:03 2006
From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:44:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] AESTHETHIC OF RECREATIONAL ART=review of omode meta
	-children at play by gbemi tijani mst
Message-ID: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Mail to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  From Gbemi tijani mst
  Subject: CHILDREN AT PLAY-A LINO CUT REVIEW by GBEMI TIJANI MST
  


  Keywords:   
  ?        Viable artistic permission, 
   
  ?        Traditional recreational paraphernalia
   
  ?        Challenge to be ?or becoming worthy,
   
  ?        Value reconstructs vs the rat race
  ?        Healthy Communal gusto,
  ?        Trends in fabric rebirth
  ?        Painting as social communication
   
   
   
   
   
  THE VITAL TENSION in his paintings and perhaps the truth of his visual metaphor hinges on his creative energy and peculiar choice of anatomic abstractions. For instance, in the CHILDREN AT PLAY (lino cut, 1988) the figures are compatible with their age range.  The cubic dimensions especially the torso; the appendages and the head are ordinarily shocking. But one could feel that their artificial creator in this case the artist must have purportedly chipped them out as chubby youngsters.
  
What sort of Mr. and Mrs. would they become? This is still a hidden reality.  As Dr. Tai Solarin? ?a renowned, down-to -earth educationist and  well-known human rights activist in Nigeria-very likely to be a rarity.  Fewer still might come out of age as a godly atheist!  Or a Wole Soyinka - a consummate writer of a garlicky, gargantuan intellectual property built with hydrofoil resource - far before the Nobel Award in 1986! No doubt- a few will rival the Nobel Laureates like Roger Sperry ?that initially started his career with a degree in English before training in zoology and later became inured with biomedical research in brain physiology. Or the dramatic poet monger ?harmlessly notorious for several arrests, radio station seizure in the 60s and noted for his ubiquitous laptop, anthology of copious, artistically rich, potent plays and poetry that can catalyse social conditions ?where good governance is still at stake!  Some may become superstars in Jazz music or soccer,
 or find tender nesting in web designing like Grace Chinyere-the professionally confident, pro-practical Supratek?s alumnus or just an I.T. expert ?locally productive, globally resourceful and welcomed after dogged training. However some indolent ones ?pathologically lazy or ethically bankrupt - will sell out their conscience and consequently throw out the baby with the bath water

They are the blind Human Rights Defenders, Auctioneers and fodder for settlement politics.  Or they could be daily activists pretentiously upbraiding tyranny whereas they ought to be part of potent struggle by virtue of their learned careers. Some innocently roll in dusts as if they ?re reproduced in the ash-covered city of Japan
  . 
  Their posterity?  Are they flagships for human development?  They possibly could have been patriotic wards of the supposedly 'wasted generation' - springing surprise in all areas of human endeavour had it been they grow up in a just and egalitarian milieu much touted as great and dynamic since 1914's amalgamation of the South and the Northern Nigeria.
  
In such a World, dubious eyebrow-raisers cast as in Fagunwa's wondrous characters abound as ' misleaders (miseaters, misdrinkers), nincompoops.  Whereas one could not become saints by mere transport of ecstasies nor annulment of temptations, the world is far from nirvana and of course, full of sufferers partly due to lack of freedom, right thinking, right view, right speech, right actions and selfish craving of establishment or consumerisms. As modern day believers ?vulnerable to inordinate trappings of lust-and opulence yet aspiring for another heaven --will they be humble or humane enough- to repent their sins or check their excesses or show compassion rooted in genuine love, as they will desire from others too anywhere they?re blown to be resident or serve in this global village?
  
OMODE META is therefore a real watchdog.  A manifest of contemporary polity.  Indeed - OMODE META is a checklist of characters - a cast of (nonentities and) possibilities. 
  A mapping of genes for resplendent generation.  One may not outguess their civic possibilities as a Confab Rep, a 'mobile ruler', a fanatical diarchist or a popular statesman, a pragmatic pastor, a civilian ?military politician with or without perennial ambition to annul corrupt practices at the head, torso and the lower anatomy of Nigerians and their foreign cohorts if this is not Herculean for a pure bred civilian. The kids (visually depicted by the artist) surely look less robust, dense but lively like his World Bank hangings. They are in a dilemma -traveling to a bright landscape of adulthood and are not even sure whether there is enough fuel to reach their destination - productive adulthood. 
   
   Or again - will there be enough reserve ?already planned for their future ? psycho-environmental peace inclusive. Another virulent aspect of political hustling-  -will there be curfew - free - days to permit hard work and out door recreation-if they loathe creativity like the odour of the carrion? Will political aspirants? assassinations stop with the passage of Funso Williams ?a gubernatorial hopeful in Lagos state,Dr Daramola  from Ekiti state,ex-Attorney-general Bola Ige ,Rilman and numerous political personalities ?whose lives have been violently truncated-Just Like That- as one of the late Fela Anikulapo?s ?afro beat empirically  satirical musical composition years back lamented for all.
  This reviewer isn?t abashed at all -at the interesting anatomy he carves for the boys at play. He himself grew up in the locale-ILE-IFE (where Oduduwa-founder of Yoruba race settled, from far away Old Egypt) where inequity is prominently established not just by politics but also by tradition. Hence the play toys are actually stratified ?much more ossified than others. There are mini lorries creatively built in JEEP format-but the superstructure varies ?mostly wooden for poor folks and partially metallic for mre economically endowed siblings. This dichotomy still exists till this internet ?century in Africa.
  Any hope then for these future guys to improve on their modest but not really unwealthy 
  Environment? For instance the creator himself owed almost all his artistic education to indigenous spiritual arts, carvings, rituals, superior artistic heritage of the Oshogbo school and perennial training at the Adeyemi arts studio coupled with the zeal to travel.
  
Though obviously they all look agile, psychologically buoyant and biologically potent; they are a quintessence of a healthy subset of village youth - complacent or possessive of everything in their immediate terrain of recreation. Indeed ?even adults of old times can be engrossed in traditional games like AYO or OKOTO-made from snail shells of the gastropod class and rebuff their meals or forfeit their precious esteem ?if they lost to a supposedly inferior playmate. 
  As for the kids-they probably have 'stolen the time' with or without their parents' approval or conditional release.  Usually in patrilineal societies of Black Africa - the father could be in charge of leisure - time - budgeting for children after the day?s commercial assistance - domestic duties inclusive. Thank God for contemporary campaign against child labour in this democratic dispensation and free universal basic education that resurrected in the Obasanjo Administration. 
  
Child labour in Nigeria as well as Africa after 'the colonial transition? could be farm work, cattle rearing (up - North), fruit - selling and fishing in the riverside areas.  Normally, matrilineal Nigeria - the social mores predispose the mother to be watchful of interactive dangers and, of course, amity, profile or safety of the likely peer group.  How decent or trustful and perhaps how morally dependable are intriguing questions most parents endeavour to ensure before allowing peering or playmates altogether.  Some grand parents too, would want to see if such a recreative ground is ecologically conducive.  Is the terrain free from stinging insects, poisonous snakes or wood - bearing-nails that could cause injuries during their trivial proposal?
  
Should the mother - and not infrequently too, the father, release her kids to the extent they become vulnerable to mishap like falling into a pit latrine, a bore hole, vehicle accident or falling from the staircase, sustaining injury from any of the home appliances or the kitchen knife. If the  risks inherent in any of these settings are not well insured- it might bring psychological warfare between the couple.  Sometime in the evening of Monday April 17, 1989, a 5-year old child was brought to the surgery department of Adeoyo Ring Road State Hospital with a 4 - hour history of amputation of three (3) fingers on the right hand
He was innocently playing around his mother's pepper grinding machine.

. So we could see that CHILDREN AT PLAY, (linocut, 88) depict many episodes which are not flashed by the motifs represented or impossible to be told on a carving medium or taken for granted as additional metaphoric interpretation by the audience to which that rare or regale opportunity is an indigenous experience. Good enough - as a folksong for the moonlight play time (amongst Yoruba children).
  
The essential message is optimism nurtured by self-estimate-enabling factors in accomplishment of goals. The vernacular rationale in Tunde's lino print (OMODE META) vividly depicts children's boundless exuberance and their rights to play and to choose what to play with.
   It should be noted that three' is a metaphor. The children playing could be ten. The aesthetics of this print is functionally appealing because the reflection is evidently measurable within time and space. For instance, the gait of the boys and their attempt to tone their young bodies without any knowledge of aerobic is intuitive. And again whether this repeated physical affordable useful wastes? make experiment possible.
  
The fact that they don't even know this enthralling engagement would help achieve physical fitness and increased circulation and deep breathing altogether is healthful. This spontaneous permission for viable physical culture now, as then one could guess, makes this outdoor spotless tedious and I must add less utilitarian too
 Psychologically, we could predict such children would choose something physically active for recreation no matter how busy they are in life. This is also an opportunity for socialization and healthy communal gusto. It would be a lubricant for social programmes too. 
This game is an ideal. It is also a physics of fun considering the calculated jumps and rope manipulation
 Believed export! It is ubiquitous so to say. The Ibos called it U-gah game. After the 1984 OLYMPIC games the America Cultural Centre (Ibadan) showed some Young African-American teenagers  enthralled with another fashion of the game
 ONE! TWO!! THREE!!! And the jumps followed in rhythmic cadence and precision. Perhaps it's not yet presumptuous to regard CHILDREN AT PLAY, (Lino cut 88) as one of the time-resistant, flash down art works of Tunde Odunlade who was then Captain of speedball Resort' at OROGUN near Ibadan. He?s now absorbed in international campaign for cultural awareness and promotion of the arts, visual artists. He?s immensely involved in the planning and celebration of the 60th birthday of KING SUNNY ADE ?aka KSA ?the well-known , ageless JUJU musician that has toured virtually all the continents to entertain afro-juju fans tagged synchro system in the
 70s..  He?s exhibited in more than 30 states of the USA SINCE THE LATES 80S.He?s currently working on synthetic variants of traditional yardages with appliqu? aesthetics without distorting the antiquity of motifs in the new creation.
  
OMODE META is a near perfect mimic of a time activity within the umbrella effect of nature. Convinced - as Goethe put it, she is the sole artist of her rare workshop, that surrealist tendency of welding the past and the present with the same leisure choice forms a continuum with the future through the visual metaphor of fibre art medium. The artist through his own media could theorize this subliminal painting as a choice of value ?teachable?. 'Teachable' is hardly the best word but something thinkable, encourage able and practicable within what is teachable by the teacher as an art instructor, a science lecturer or a demonstrator in a medical school. Bartlett Giamatti correctly states. 'No good teacher ever wants to control the contour of another's mind.'
That would be a form of terrorism rather than teaching. Again the physical environment where CHILDREN AT PLAY are carved compare positively to any teaching or recreating milieu where there's a choice. TEACHERS' HEAVEN, a Philadelphia Summer Resort for vacationing teachers who put useful wastes and tools to creative use (as teaching aids) is a case in point of what a liberal education can offer variety. This is within the psychological need of adults too. This linocut could at first be interpreted as a slice of 'art for art's sake!  However, in reality, for children of this age bracket, nothing else could be considered more precious than this recreational paraphenalia and its propensities. That is, if there is no entropy from the milieu. This does not erode its inherent depth of meaningful elegance - especially, the hidden energies for sport and interactive values. A fervent window on the future World Cup players or fans or referees maybe
  
The basic question is time availability. Truly every good thing must have its endplay time inclusive. Then, is there a time grant? Or again, is this elastic enough to warm up hope of its routine peering or group comrade? These are psychosocial urgencies for the growing children. If there's permission, this is part of the non-digestive matter they need for normal psycho-physical development - apart although the hormonal coordination will be put to task-even by this exterior freedom, which the children seize with enthusiasm.
  
Upon granting the freedom to play with different things - are they physically potent or psychologically renewed with this homely 'inorganic catalyst? Yes!  This is a big deal in our own days too. Its hilarious to be so free from grandpa?s assignment and be blessed to go out to play football or ping-pong all day long! There are no ready-made answers to these posers but the artist's conception could've been inevitably coupled on a flash of refection or a regale 'harvest' of a scene possibly as a disturbance or welcome distraction through his studio window. So, an event or imaginative reconstruction of the scene that he stabilised in lino occurred as real and consequently a painting is possible. The energy necessary and conditions permitted by their cues will determine the life span of this recreational pursuit.
  
There are many possibilities to visualize this artwork. For instance, if a three-dimensional photography of this print is produced by the laser beam -a reality will be marvelously perceived. Even then, it couldn't have taken ?the shape nature never saw, a shape art supplies to the stuff the world provides??. The aesthetic and limitations of play-time-freedom against this simple culture milieu are nonetheless logical. Noting that Visual Art is a tool for social communication Tunde Odunlade's studio might be teaching the public or pupils indigenous outdoor game of a forgotten era predominant with the Junior Secondary School age. This creative method of using abstractive medium is artistic politics with a civil sense. Giamatti, in the book-The University and Public Interest states that no human activity can proceed without making choices-critical acts of the mind-and teaching which embrace any subject or discipline. A real instance is not far-fetched from Toki Memorial Art
 Centre. 
If the art centre could direct the creative energy and powers of imagery for artistic expression of the human condition under a pliable and inspiring teacher then the edifice of belief is shared and perpetuated. This choice is the essential thing. It is nothing short of this as an enabling factor. Teaching is self-perpetuation. Painting, too, is perpetuation to the printmaking connoisseur and his community. It is perpetuation not of blood or even of similarity but a detached perpetuation, a giving to others the gift of how to share their desires. 
At its best-painting is beyond aesthetics. It is glowing and powerful for an artwork to transcend and communicate different era beyond its author's life span. Then it is also a spirit of continuity.
   
  Comment by GBEMI TIJANI MST
  
p.s. nb OMODE META== CHILDREN AT PLAY

 		
---------------------------------
 Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" ? The Wall Street Journal
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/f71d10d0/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  4 14:49:56 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:49:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] AESTHETHIC OF RECREATIONAL ART=review of omode meta
	-children at play by gbemi tijani mst
In-Reply-To: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F1BB564F-23BE-4C2C-9AFB-93461E34B67B@earthlink.net>

anesthetics of recreational art


"America loves a successful sociopath."
		--Gary Indiana

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/c5f1c72c/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 14:53:21 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:53:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
Message-ID: <454.566c1dd.322dd021@aol.com>

Cant Poetry Mutter
 
     Sonny, I knew Jack  Kerouac,
and you?re no Jack Kerouac.
 
In my day we had none 
of those stinking MFA programs.
We wrote in  holds of tramp freighters off Madagascar, 
on barstools boring into winter  nights in Fairbanks 
and in boxcars strumming the rails of Andalusia.
We  made our own paper, too. From lint 
picked from our navels or by unraveling  
the butts collected along the sidewalk. 
There was no Google, the  libraries were fucking 
chockfull of books, and you had to read ?em all,  
and none of ?em had any pictures. Our words 
weren?t processed like bad  cheese. And le?me tell you, 
when we gave readings it was always a full  house?
it was like Pasternak in the old Soviet Union, 
if you lost your  place in the poem, the audience 
could finish the line. The clapping came up  
like a thousand pigeon wings over 
a loaf of day-old bread in the park.  
And the people bought our books. 
We?d sign title pages till our hands  cramped. 
Of course we wrote about real things then 
and our lines could  really sing.  Our rhythms 
were like making love, fierce and with  staying power, 
until the last line crested like a tongue 
in the throat  of a lover coming. For a poet 
even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as  well, 
and wouldn?t be caught dead inside ivy-clad walls 
unless it was an  honest-to-god state asylum. 
You see, we wrote for keeps. For that 
small  print on translucent pages in thick anthologies.
Believe me, Shakespeare and  Milton 
were watching their backs. 
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/080975e4/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Sep  4 15:16:16 2006
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:16:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
Message-ID: <2d3.dbd9f0b.322dd580@cs.com>

Windows is Shutting Down

Windows is shutting down, and grammar are
On their last leg. So what am we to do?
A letter of complaint go just so far,
Proving the only one in step are you.

Better, perhaps, to simply let it goes.
A sentence have to be screwed pretty bad
Before they gets to where you doesnt knows
The meaning what it must of meant to had.

The meteor have hit. Extinction spread,
But evolution do not stop for that.
A mutant languages rise from the dead
And all them rules is suddenly old hat.

Too bad for we, us what has had so long
The best seat from the only game in town.
But there it am, and whom can say its wrong?
Those are the break. Windows is shutting down.

Clive James

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/b6a5b021/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep  4 16:13:09 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0609040915y724e31ebr7082b935f6838468@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609041313090.11245@hur11.myuw.net>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Chris Lott,
> If-- for the sake of discussion-- pop music is the primary vehicle for
> poetry today, isn't that pretty sad? I'm a fan of a lot of pop music,
> but as poetry? Not so much.

I look at that fact as the pretty obvious response to observations that there isn't much poetry in news papers and magazines any more. so what if all there is is poetry on the radio. granted a lot of it is really really bad. but so was most of the mostly lyric verse in the newspapers and magazines of yore. and there are always exceptions. take, for example, the magnetic fields, regina spektor, or beck and you'll see a great deal of lyrical sophistication in pop music that one would be hard pressed to find in, say, billy collins or glyn maxwell, to pick a couple of my favorite whipping posts. And I'd hold that robert smith of the cure, at his best-which granted is pretty rare these last fifteen years- or Tricky at his best whihc is a bit more common, are head and shoulders above dana mr "can poetry matter" himself gioia at his best.



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep  4 16:52:30 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 22:52:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] AESTHETHIC OF RECREATIONAL ART=review of omode
	meta-children at play by gbemi tijani mst
References: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<F1BB564F-23BE-4C2C-9AFB-93461E34B67B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c6d064$0a4244e0$37ad3252@ANNY>

I mean, you have all your pockets full of quotes, I am just in awe,

Anny Ballardini
this makes me weep with joy, and brings me back to Dante.
GS

  From: Halvard Johnson 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:49 PM


  anesthetics of recreational art




  "America loves a successful sociopath."
  --Gary Indiana


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/98f8bd91/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep  4 17:01:24 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:01:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
References: <454.566c1dd.322dd021@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003601c6d065$4890eed0$37ad3252@ANNY>

fucking 
chockfull of books
the libraries!

no google, and still how much 
You see, we wrote for keeps

and also worked,
something like eating to live

_
What a great poem!

  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:53 PM



  Cant Poetry Mutter

       Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac,
       and you?re no Jack Kerouac.

  In my day we had none 
  of those stinking MFA programs.
  We wrote in holds of tramp freighters off Madagascar, 
  on barstools boring into winter nights in Fairbanks 
  and in boxcars strumming the rails of Andalusia.
  We made our own paper, too. From lint 
  picked from our navels or by unraveling 
  the butts collected along the sidewalk. 
  There was no Google, the libraries were fucking 
  chockfull of books, and you had to read ?em all, 
  and none of ?em had any pictures. Our words 
  weren?t processed like bad cheese. And le?me tell you, 
  when we gave readings it was always a full house?
  it was like Pasternak in the old Soviet Union, 
  if you lost your place in the poem, the audience 
  could finish the line. The clapping came up 
  like a thousand pigeon wings over 
  a loaf of day-old bread in the park. 
  And the people bought our books. 
  We?d sign title pages till our hands cramped. 
  Of course we wrote about real things then 
  and our lines could really sing.  Our rhythms 
  were like making love, fierce and with staying power, 
  until the last line crested like a tongue 
  in the throat of a lover coming. For a poet 
  even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, 
  and wouldn?t be caught dead inside ivy-clad walls 
  unless it was an honest-to-god state asylum. 
  You see, we wrote for keeps. For that 
  small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies.
  Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton 
  were watching their backs. 


   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/478d672a/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep  4 17:07:16 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:07:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
References: <C121B95A.B254%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006001c6d066$19df1610$37ad3252@ANNY>

mo natterin' bout po no matterin'And I also like this completely different poem by David Graham, this is the first time I read it.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 6:07 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'




  > JforJames at aol.com wrote:
  >> http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0906/comment_178560.html
  >> American Poetry in the New Century
  >> by John Barr
  >>  
  >> The need for /something/ new is evident. Contemporary poetry's striking 
  >> absence from the public dialogues of our day, from the high school 
  >> classroom, from bookstores, and from mainstream media, is evidence of a 
  >> people in whose mind poetry is missing and unmissed. 

  >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




  I suspect I've probably posted this poem of mine before.  Here it is again.  It does seem as though we're addicted to mourning poetry's perpetual death. . . .



  On The Reported Death Of Poetry


  . . . it was during the 1950's that poetry last had this religious aura.

             --Joseph Epstein, "Who Killed Poetry?"

  Look, I've brought a little gift for you, 
  Poetry-bit of seashell worn smooth
  as a lip; and more to come, lint 
  on a windowsill, soundings
  of woodthrush at dusk, lawnmowers 
  distant as the music of the spheres. . . . 

  Poetry, only you can tie such bootlaces, 
  only you witness mudflakes 
  shaken off by the dog, snatch of Bach
  fading under the announcer's
  cheerful catastrophes.

  I bring you the swish of a nightgown 
  to the floor, cool drift of cloud 
  over one grave, the moment when
  a boy's liquid nattering
  first coalesces into a sentence.

  I bring you valediction
  and animal blurt, I commend
  you to God in a whirlwind
  and the squirrel-chitter rhythms
  of Thelonious Monk:  Nutty,  Blue 
  Sphere, and Ugly Beauty above all.

  Poetry, you've died so many times, 
  each age preceded by a better, giants 
  of utterance walking profligate earth.  
  You would think we'd tire 
  of the visionary funeral, but here 
  we come to the wake in our shiny 
  black suits, now we loosen our ties
  and, as the first fire of scotch
  warms our throats, begin again
  the old stories, fruit-heavy bough
  and golden stranger at the door.


  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/ace7a092/attachment.html>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 17:11:21 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:11:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] AESTHETHIC OF RECREATIONAL ART=review of omode meta
	-children at play by gbemi tijani mst
In-Reply-To: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60609041411y75fc4bd9p9716b472c7ce56ec@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/06, gbemi tijani-mst <hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Mail to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> From Gbemi tijani mst
> Subject: CHILDREN AT PLAY-A LINO CUT REVIEW by GBEMI TIJANI MST
>
>
>
> Keywords:
> ?        Viable artistic permission,
>
> ?        Traditional recreational paraphernalia
>
> ?        Challenge to be ?or becoming worthy,
>
> ?        Value reconstructs vs the rat race
> ?        Healthy Communal gusto,
> ?        Trends in fabric rebirth

He's onto something.  I opened my closet door and found my entire
wardrobe renewed.  And I didn't spend a penny!

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/



From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Mon Sep  4 17:36:55 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:36:55 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609041313090.11245@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609041313090.11245@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <027C579D-A4C5-4B47-962D-C6579F17E99F@bigpond.com>

Dave Schramm (from The Schramms) and John Gorka are two that come to  
mind as writers whose lyrics
stand out. Schramm, especially, can be breathtaking. The song Hammer  
and Nails, his homage to Townes van Zandt
(from solo album of the same name) is one of the finest things I've  
heard.

On 05/09/2006, at 6:13 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Chris Lott,
>> If-- for the sake of discussion-- pop music is the primary vehicle  
>> for
>> poetry today, isn't that pretty sad? I'm a fan of a lot of pop music,
>> but as poetry? Not so much.
>
> I look at that fact as the pretty obvious response to observations  
> that there isn't much poetry in news papers and magazines any more.  
> so what if all there is is poetry on the radio. granted a lot of it  
> is really really bad. but so was most of the mostly lyric verse in  
> the newspapers and magazines of yore. and there are always  
> exceptions. take, for example, the magnetic fields, regina spektor,  
> or beck and you'll see a great deal of lyrical sophistication in  
> pop music that one would be hard pressed to find in, say, billy  
> collins or glyn maxwell, to pick a couple of my favorite whipping  
> posts. And I'd hold that robert smith of the cure, at his best- 
> which granted is pretty rare these last fifteen years- or Tricky at  
> his best whihc is a bit more common, are head and shoulders above  
> dana mr "can poetry matter" himself gioia at his best.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep  4 17:55:45 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:55:45 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] AESTHETHIC OF RECREATIONAL ART=review of omode
	meta-children at play by gbemi tijani mst
References: <20060904184403.50841.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<648208b60609041411y75fc4bd9p9716b472c7ce56ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008f01c6d06c$e08b2aa0$37ad3252@ANNY>

You say that I should go and see that maybe also mine...
shhhh... don't tell anybody...

From: "James Cervantes" <cervantes.james at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 11:11 PM


> On 9/4/06, gbemi tijani-mst <hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Mail to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> From Gbemi tijani mst
>> Subject: CHILDREN AT PLAY-A LINO CUT REVIEW by GBEMI TIJANI MST
>>
>>
>>
>> Keywords:
>> ?        Viable artistic permission,
>>
>> ?        Traditional recreational paraphernalia
>>
>> ?        Challenge to be ?or becoming worthy,
>>
>> ?        Value reconstructs vs the rat race
>> ?        Healthy Communal gusto,
>> ?        Trends in fabric rebirth
>
> He's onto something.  I opened my closet door and found my entire
> wardrobe renewed.  And I didn't spend a penny!
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
>




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 18:04:27 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:04:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <027C579D-A4C5-4B47-962D-C6579F17E99F@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>


> On 05/09/2006, at 6:13 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

>>  take, for example, the magnetic fields, regina spektor,
>> or beck and you'll see a great deal of lyrical sophistication in
>> pop music that one would be hard pressed to find in, say, billy
>> collins or glyn maxwell,

Yeah, there are boatloads of good lyricists out there in any number of pop
genres (some making the kind of cash that makes Billy Collins's paycheck
look downright paltry).

I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?

   Is this just vulgar electricity
   Is this the edifying fire
   (it was so pure)
   Does your smile's covert complicity
   Debase as it admires
   (just a flu with a temperature)
   Are you just checking out your mojo
   (oohoo)
   Or am I just fighting off growing old
   (just a high fever)
   All I ever wanted
   Was just to come in from the cold

[Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep  4 18:42:49 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:42:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>

at's dylan innit?

David Graham wrote:
>>On 05/09/2006, at 6:13 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:
> 
> 
>>> take, for example, the magnetic fields, regina spektor,
>>>or beck and you'll see a great deal of lyrical sophistication in
>>>pop music that one would be hard pressed to find in, say, billy
>>>collins or glyn maxwell,
> 
> 
> Yeah, there are boatloads of good lyricists out there in any number of pop
> genres (some making the kind of cash that makes Billy Collins's paycheck
> look downright paltry).
> 
> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?
> 
>    Is this just vulgar electricity
>    Is this the edifying fire
>    (it was so pure)
>    Does your smile's covert complicity
>    Debase as it admires
>    (just a flu with a temperature)
>    Are you just checking out your mojo
>    (oohoo)
>    Or am I just fighting off growing old
>    (just a high fever)
>    All I ever wanted
>    Was just to come in from the cold
> 
> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 19:52:51 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:52:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
Message-ID: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>

 
Leave the Animals Alone 
Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter  
So sorry about that stingray?s direct 
hit to your heart, but I?ve been meaning 
to say something for a long time: 
Leave the fucking animals alone. 
Let them live in the dignity of their  
natural environment. They don?t need 
your nest-probing camera,  
they don?t want to be mounted by a man 
in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show  
their teeth. Mug for the camera if you 
must, but don?t make animals accomplices 
to a carnival geek?s unseemly acts. 
The crocodile and anaconda are gods  
of this earth. I don?t see you cavorting with 
prairie dogs. I don?t see you wrestling 
the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth 
as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest?s canopy 
as its home is eaten away by backhoes. 
They all want to left alone. And the ones 
that are dangerous kill because killing 
has kept them alive. We?re supposed 
the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural  selection again takes its course.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/6b776bf4/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 20:08:35 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:08:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu> <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>
Message-ID: <4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu>

No, not Dylan.



On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:

> at's dylan innit?
>
>
>> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next  
>> issue,
>> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?

>>    Is this just vulgar electricity
>>    Is this the edifying fire
>>    (it was so pure)
>>    Does your smile's covert complicity
>>    Debase as it admires
>>    (just a flu with a temperature)
>>    Are you just checking out your mojo
>>    (oohoo)
>>    Or am I just fighting off growing old
>>    (just a high fever)
>>    All I ever wanted
>>    Was just to come in from the cold

>> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/d17e5ca6/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:38:57 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 01:38:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu> <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>
	<4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

<<
No, not Dylan.
>>

Dunno who it's by, but there are traces of some undigested Auden lingering 
in the background, as:

        Does your smile's covert complicity
        Debase as it admires

Ah, of course -- Dana Gioia!!!    It's an out-take from +Nosferatu+, right?

            Robin Hamilton

<<------

On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:

at's dylan innit?


I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?


   Is this just vulgar electricity
   Is this the edifying fire
   (it was so pure)
   Does your smile's covert complicity
   Debase as it admires
   (just a flu with a temperature)
   Are you just checking out your mojo
   (oohoo)
   Or am I just fighting off growing old
   (just a high fever)
   All I ever wanted
   Was just to come in from the cold


[Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]




==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================









_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 20:47:18 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:47:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu> <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>
	<4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu>
	<01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu>

Don't know about you all, but I'm having fun. . . .  No, not Dana  
Gioia, either.  Good guesses, though.

The author is a rather famous figure in pop music, but not Dylan.



On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:38 PM, Robin wrote:

> <<
> No, not Dylan.
>>>
>
> Dunno who it's by, but there are traces of some undigested Auden  
> lingering in the background, as:
>
>        Does your smile's covert complicity
>        Debase as it admires
>
> Ah, of course -- Dana Gioia!!!    It's an out-take from +Nosferatu 
> +, right?
>
>            Robin Hamilton
>
> <<------
>
> On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:
>
> at's dylan innit?
>
>
> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next  
> issue,
> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?
>
>
>   Is this just vulgar electricity
>   Is this the edifying fire
>   (it was so pure)
>   Does your smile's covert complicity
>   Debase as it admires
>   (just a flu with a temperature)
>   Are you just checking out your mojo
>   (oohoo)
>   Or am I just fighting off growing old
>   (just a high fever)
>   All I ever wanted
>   Was just to come in from the cold
>
>
> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
>

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/01c3edef/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Mon Sep  4 20:44:22 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:44:22 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net><4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu><01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>

Joni Mitchell

DD
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:47 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical


  Don't know about you all, but I'm having fun. . . .  No, not Dana Gioia, either.  Good guesses, though.  


  The author is a rather famous figure in pop music, but not Dylan.






  On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:38 PM, Robin wrote:


    <<
    No, not Dylan.




    Dunno who it's by, but there are traces of some undigested Auden lingering in the background, as:


           Does your smile's covert complicity
           Debase as it admires


    Ah, of course -- Dana Gioia!!!    It's an out-take from +Nosferatu+, right?


               Robin Hamilton


    <<------


    On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:


    at's dylan innit?




    I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
    whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?




      Is this just vulgar electricity
      Is this the edifying fire
      (it was so pure)
      Does your smile's covert complicity
      Debase as it admires
      (just a flu with a temperature)
      Are you just checking out your mojo
      (oohoo)
      Or am I just fighting off growing old
      (just a high fever)
      All I ever wanted
      Was just to come in from the cold




    [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]





  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/fed788ec/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 20:56:59 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:56:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net><4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu><01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu>
	<00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>
Message-ID: <5B34FC6E-C399-4756-8BCA-280E496155B2@ripon.edu>

We have a winner!!!  Yes, it's Joni Mitchell, one of the most  
consistently inventive lyricists around, and someone I always think  
of when talk turns to song lyrics that "work" on the page.

Now, did you know the song already, Debra, or did you recognize the  
style?


On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Debra Dicembre wrote:

> Joni Mitchell
>
> DD
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Graham
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:47 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
>
> Don't know about you all, but I'm having fun. . . .  No, not Dana  
> Gioia, either.  Good guesses, though.
>
> The author is a rather famous figure in pop music, but not Dylan.
>
>
>
> On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:38 PM, Robin wrote:
>
>> <<
>> No, not Dylan.
>>>>
>>
>> Dunno who it's by, but there are traces of some undigested Auden  
>> lingering in the background, as:
>>
>>        Does your smile's covert complicity
>>        Debase as it admires
>>
>> Ah, of course -- Dana Gioia!!!    It's an out-take from +Nosferatu 
>> +, right?
>>
>>            Robin Hamilton
>>
>> <<------
>>
>> On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:
>>
>> at's dylan innit?
>>
>>
>> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next  
>> issue,
>> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?
>>
>>
>>   Is this just vulgar electricity
>>   Is this the edifying fire
>>   (it was so pure)
>>   Does your smile's covert complicity
>>   Debase as it admires
>>   (just a flu with a temperature)
>>   Are you just checking out your mojo
>>   (oohoo)
>>   Or am I just fighting off growing old
>>   (just a high fever)
>>   All I ever wanted
>>   Was just to come in from the cold
>>
>>
>> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
>>
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/0e668a05/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Mon Sep  4 21:12:50 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:12:50 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu><44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net><4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu><01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu><00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>
	<5B34FC6E-C399-4756-8BCA-280E496155B2@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <011401c6d088$69cc8aa0$0301010a@galaxy>

I knew the song...the mojo/growin' old lines reached out to me. 
Is it from the Night Ride album?


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:56 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical


  We have a winner!!!  Yes, it's Joni Mitchell, one of the most consistently inventive lyricists around, and someone I always think of when talk turns to song lyrics that "work" on the page.  


  Now, did you know the song already, Debra, or did you recognize the style?  




  On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Debra Dicembre wrote:


    Joni Mitchell

    DD
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: David Graham 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:47 AM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical


      Don't know about you all, but I'm having fun. . . .  No, not Dana Gioia, either.  Good guesses, though.   


      The author is a rather famous figure in pop music, but not Dylan. 






      On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:38 PM, Robin wrote:


        <<
        No, not Dylan.




        Dunno who it's by, but there are traces of some undigested Auden lingering in the background, as:


               Does your smile's covert complicity
               Debase as it admires


        Ah, of course -- Dana Gioia!!!    It's an out-take from +Nosferatu+, right?


                   Robin Hamilton


        <<------


        On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:


        at's dylan innit?




        I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
        whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?




          Is this just vulgar electricity
          Is this the edifying fire
          (it was so pure)
          Does your smile's covert complicity
          Debase as it admires
          (just a flu with a temperature)
          Are you just checking out your mojo
          (oohoo)
          Or am I just fighting off growing old
          (just a high fever)
          All I ever wanted
          Was just to come in from the cold




        [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]




      ==========================================
      David Graham
      grahamd at ripon.edu
      Home Page:
      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
      Poetry Library:
      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
      ==========================================









--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/0124a5cb/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep  4 21:34:07 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:34:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joni Mitchell Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <011401c6d088$69cc8aa0$0301010a@galaxy>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu><44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net><4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu><01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu><00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>
	<5B34FC6E-C399-4756-8BCA-280E496155B2@ripon.edu>
	<011401c6d088$69cc8aa0$0301010a@galaxy>
Message-ID: <6C3C4467-4AF8-4802-A781-7796C863FFAD@ripon.edu>


On Sep 4, 2006, at 8:12 PM, Debra Dicembre wrote:

> I knew the song...the mojo/growin' old lines reached out to me.
> Is it from the Night Ride album?
>
--------------


Yes, it's from *Night Ride Home*, from 1991.  My favorite among her  
later albums.

Here are the full lyrics for anyone who hasn't heard it.  A phrase  
like "edifying fire" isn't something I'm used to hear a lot in pop  
music. . . .



COME IN FROM THE COLD

Back in 1957
We had to dance a foot apart
And they hawk-eyed us from the sidelines
Holding their rulers without a heart
And so with just a touch of our fingers
I could make our circuitry explode
All we ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(we were so young)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

We really thought we had a purpose
We were so anxious to achieve
We had hope
The world held promise
For a slave to liberty
Freely I slaved away for something better
And I was bought and sold
And all I ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(we were so sure)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

I feel your leg under the table
Leaning into mine
I feel renewed
I feel disabled
By these bonfires in my spine
I don't know who the arsonist was
Which incendiary soul
But all I ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(you were so warm)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

I am not some stone commission
Like a statue in a park
I am flesh and blood and vision
I am howling in the dark
Long blue shadows of the jackals
Are falling on a pay phone by the road
Oh all they ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(I was so low)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

Is this just vulgar electricity
Is this the edifying fire
(it was so pure)
Does your smile's covert complicity
Debase as it admires
(just a flu with a temperature)
Are you just checking out your mojo
(oohoo)
Or am I just fighting off growing old
(just a high fever)
All I ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(it was so pure)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

I know we never will be perfect
Never entirely clear
(when the moon shines)
We get hurt and we just panic
And we strike out
Out of fear
(you were only being kind)
I fear the sentence of this solitude
200 years on hold
(for my loving crime)
Oh and all we ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(when the moon shines)
Oh come in
Come in from the cold

When I thought life had some purpose
Then I thought I had some choice
(I was running blind)
And I made some value judgments
In a self-important voice
(I was outa line)
But then absurdity came over me
And I longed to lose control
(into no mind)
Oh all I ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold

Come in
Come in from the cold
(you were so kind)
Please come in
(so kind)
Come in from the cold
Come in come in
Come in from the cold, etc.

--Joni Mitchell

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/7453f54b/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Mon Sep  4 22:28:12 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:28:12 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Joni Mitchell Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <6C3C4467-4AF8-4802-A781-7796C863FFAD@ripon.edu>
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu><44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net><4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu><01f801c6d083$b16139b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><0378CAB0-5576-4FF4-A456-2A6F8BD1C654@ripon.edu><00fd01c6d084$6fb214c0$0301010a@galaxy>
	<5B34FC6E-C399-4756-8BCA-280E496155B2@ripon.edu>
	<011401c6d088$69cc8aa0$0301010a@galaxy>
	<6C3C4467-4AF8-4802-A781-7796C863FFAD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <E1E37FBC-3A6F-4BF2-A1A0-F55DC0159146@bigpond.com>

I agree. The Night Ride Home is brilliant. I think the lyrics to  
Amelia, in which she aligns herself, metaphorically, with Amelia  
Earhart's fatal flight
are the best she's written. Here it is.

I was driving across the burning desert
When I spotted six jet planes
Leaving six white vapor trails across the bleak terrain
It was the hexagram of the heavens
it was the strings of my guitar
Amelia, it was just a false alarm

The drone of flying engines
Is a song so wild and blue
It scrambles time and seasons if it gets thru to you
Then your life becomes a travelogue
Of picture-post-card-charms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm

People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
Oh Amelia, it was just a false alarm

I wish that he was here tonight
It's so hard to obey
His sad request of me to kindly stay away
So this is how I hide the hurt
As the road leads cursed and charmed
I tell Amelia, it was just a false alarm

A ghost of aviation
She was swallowed by the sky
Or by the sea, like me she had a dream to fly
Like Icarus ascending
On beautiful foolish arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm

Maybe I've never really loved
I guess that is the truth
I've spent my whole life in clouds at icy altitude
And looking down on everything
I crashed into his arms
Amelia, it was just a false alarm

I pulled into the Cactus Tree Motel
To shower off the dust
And I slept on the strange pillows of my wanderlust
I dreamed of 747s
Over geometric farms
Dreams, Amelia, dreams and false alarms




On 05/09/2006, at 11:34 AM, David Graham wrote:

>
> On Sep 4, 2006, at 8:12 PM, Debra Dicembre wrote:
>
>> I knew the song...the mojo/growin' old lines reached out to me.
>> Is it from the Night Ride album?
>>
> --------------
>
>
> Yes, it's from *Night Ride Home*, from 1991.  My favorite among her  
> later albums.
>
> Here are the full lyrics for anyone who hasn't heard it.  A phrase  
> like "edifying fire" isn't something I'm used to hear a lot in pop  
> music. . . .
>
>
>
> COME IN FROM THE COLD
>
> Back in 1957
> We had to dance a foot apart
> And they hawk-eyed us from the sidelines
> Holding their rulers without a heart
> And so with just a touch of our fingers
> I could make our circuitry explode
> All we ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (we were so young)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> We really thought we had a purpose
> We were so anxious to achieve
> We had hope
> The world held promise
> For a slave to liberty
> Freely I slaved away for something better
> And I was bought and sold
> And all I ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (we were so sure)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> I feel your leg under the table
> Leaning into mine
> I feel renewed
> I feel disabled
> By these bonfires in my spine
> I don't know who the arsonist was
> Which incendiary soul
> But all I ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (you were so warm)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> I am not some stone commission
> Like a statue in a park
> I am flesh and blood and vision
> I am howling in the dark
> Long blue shadows of the jackals
> Are falling on a pay phone by the road
> Oh all they ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (I was so low)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> Is this just vulgar electricity
> Is this the edifying fire
> (it was so pure)
> Does your smile's covert complicity
> Debase as it admires
> (just a flu with a temperature)
> Are you just checking out your mojo
> (oohoo)
> Or am I just fighting off growing old
> (just a high fever)
> All I ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (it was so pure)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> I know we never will be perfect
> Never entirely clear
> (when the moon shines)
> We get hurt and we just panic
> And we strike out
> Out of fear
> (you were only being kind)
> I fear the sentence of this solitude
> 200 years on hold
> (for my loving crime)
> Oh and all we ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (when the moon shines)
> Oh come in
> Come in from the cold
>
> When I thought life had some purpose
> Then I thought I had some choice
> (I was running blind)
> And I made some value judgments
> In a self-important voice
> (I was outa line)
> But then absurdity came over me
> And I longed to lose control
> (into no mind)
> Oh all I ever wanted
> Was just to come in from the cold
>
> Come in
> Come in from the cold
> (you were so kind)
> Please come in
> (so kind)
> Come in from the cold
> Come in come in
> Come in from the cold, etc.
>
> --Joni Mitchell
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/9ca3f655/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Sep  4 23:07:09 2006
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:07:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
Message-ID: <c52.1a63be3.322e43dd@cs.com>

Eric Idle?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060904/55bc11da/attachment.html>

From rsillima at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 07:32:37 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 04:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog 
Message-ID: <20060905113237.55812.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

(note new email address ???
rsillima AT yahoo DOT com)


RECENT POSTS

The ear of Laura Elrick

Cleaning the uncleanable
(nuclear waste in Hanford, WA)

Motherless Brooklyn
a marvelous ear tinged with Tourette???s syndrome

Context is everything ???
further thoughts on the anonymous issue of Sal Mimeo

Reading Shakespeare in Zukofsky???s Julia???s Wild

What about all this feminism?
Rachel Blau DuPlessis??? Blue Studios

Remembering Carol Berge

16 links worth checking
(from Nigerian poetry to Donald Hall
to the work of John Tranter)

Online interviews with poets
on first books
and much else
(links to sites with over 300
interviews of poets)

Depression and poetry

The tender-tough poetry
of CAConrad
(Deviant Propulsion)

When you hide the bio
everything becomes a clue
(on Thomas Pynchon)

A volume of anonymous poetry

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 08:19:43 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 04:19:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <C121BE6D.B25D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <9b1b9dab0609040915y724e31ebr7082b935f6838468@mail.gmail.com>
	<C121BE6D.B25D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609050519s60228a93w39bdb97f85cebb02@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> you know, forgotten mediocrities
> like Wallace Stevens and T.S. Eliot.

Who? :)

P.S. there's a big difference between positing the demise of poetry
and surmising that perhaps we aren't living in the greatest decade
ever.

c


From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 08:22:00 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:22:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
In-Reply-To: <52d.80e3437.322c7c32@aol.com>
References: <52d.80e3437.322c7c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609050522l67b87baejaa7071a65e872a0f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/3/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  Another thought on this subject: Think if we asked our playwrights
> to compose dialogue in proper sentences?
>
> Mamet could go probably go three full acts without a complete sentence...
>


Mamet is brilliant for his attention to how people actually speak in
conversation, what is said, what is implied, and what is left unsaid.

I think the whole point of using "proper" grammar (or not) is to achieve a
kind of dramatic effect-- if you are breaking the rules, let there be a
reason for doing so, and please let it be effective.  If it is disruptive,
or comes across as a mannerism or bad habit, or a parody of another writer
(yes, Mamet is often parodied) it just doesn't work.

For example: I have worked for years as a technical writer/editor-- when I
am composing a technical document I follow the rules very carefully, not out
of pedantry but because doing so is the least disruptive for the reader, and
reflects best on the client.  Experimental grammar in the Help section for
some high end and very expensive software is not going to sound poetic but
unprofessional.  If I am writing a poem, a play, or a story everything is
completely different-- my reader also has completely different expectations,
and playing with grammar, syntax, or punctation is a way of challenging
those expectations and startling the reader with something new.  Its funny
that you bring this up Jim because right now I am reading Heinlein's The
Moon is  Harsh Mistress, much of which is narrated by a speaker whose
grammar stumbles-- it works because there is a reason for it.

That's the key for me:  there has to be a reason for it.  It has to do some
work.  I only get annoyed by the misuse of words ("That word does not mean
what you think it means....") or sloppy grammar and punctuation when I think
it is genuinely sloppy, done out of ignorance, or as a tick, or out of
habit.

Suzanne Burns
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/73877d18/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 08:23:07 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 04:23:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609041313090.11245@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <9b1b9dab0609040915y724e31ebr7082b935f6838468@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609041313090.11245@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609050523p75d40f93y2a0cc277c88d1657@mail.gmail.com>

re: Spektor as poet (ju st to choose an example)....

I'm just not seeing it. She is more lyrically sophisticated than many
other pop artists, but bereft of the music I don't see much
particularly good poetry there. Which isn't surprising-- it's akin to
saying "without all those nouns and verbs, his writing isn't
particularly strong."

I'm glad there are sophisticated pop lyricists (like I said, I listen
to a lot of pop :) but their emphasis is-- rightly-- not on the words
and the product shows it. If that were the future of poetry, I think
it'd be pretty sad because a lot of fthe potential power would be
permanently lost.

c


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 11:07:51 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:07:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] And the wheels on the bus go rondeau and rondeau..
Message-ID: <560.62a0a91.322eecc7@aol.com>

_http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060905/1053946.asp_ 
(http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060905/1053946.asp) 
 
Poets' voyage of verse will visit Buffalo
By HILLEL ITALIE  
ASSOCIATED PRESS
9/5/2006  
 

NEW YORK - Poetry fans, keep an eye out this fall for a big bus.  
The 2006 Poetry Bus Tour, billed as the "most ambitious poetry tour ever  
attempted," is a voyage of verse that will cover 50 cities in 50 days, including  
a Buffalo appearance at 7 p.m. Sept. 22, a feature of Gusto at the Gallery at 
 the Albright-Knox Art Gallery. 
 
Peak inside this 40-foot coach, if you dare, and expect to find beds,  
seating areas, work stations and, at any given time, a couple of dozen  road-tested 
poets. 
 
The tour is being organized by Wave Books, a Seattle-based poetry press.  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/b9fd60b0/attachment.html>

From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Tue Sep  5 11:28:40 2006
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:28:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] gummer's aesthetic divide posted by jforjames
References: <200609051504.k85F43EH012768@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EA0@mail.emerson.edu>

JforJames at aol.com JforJames at aol.com 
Sun Sep 3 13:36:08 EDT 2006 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs (Jorie  
Graham, Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc), the  Greasers(Paul Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae Armentrout, etc), and  the folks who think that there is a difference between a Soc and a Greaser  but who claim to be neither one nor the other(Bill Knott, Dean Young, David  
Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in highschool,  
kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't have any friends. Or at  
least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease might  have.

(clipped from a post to the Poetics List)  (by Greg Gummer)

*
I'm named here as one who claims to be neither one 
nor the other, to be elevated above the rumble.
Bbut I don't make such claims.  
Throughout my career, I've mostly tried to be the kind of poet 
here termed SOQ: I've tried to write mainstream poetry.  
(The poets I admire and emulate are all mainstream poets.)
The fact that I was unable to achieve my goal and become a 
mainstream poet (or SOQ, if you will) doesn't make me part of 
a third group, it makes me part of the fourth and largest group 
of poets, the Failures.

*

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 3346 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/b86bc490/attachment.bin>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  5 11:38:08 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:38:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] gummer's aesthetic divide posted by jforjames
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EA0@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <200609051504.k85F43EH012768@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EA0@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <C526FBF1-6459-481D-B777-8A9911EA7777@earthlink.net>

Here's one of the best reasons for groupifying poets: allowing
those who want to be failures to find some easy way to do so.

Sorry, BK. You're too successful to fail.

Hal

"Am I wrong, or are fewer and fewer people
  using the word 'Weltschmerz' these days?"
      		       --Christopher Howell

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:28 AM, William Knott wrote:

> JforJames at aol.com JforJames at aol.com
> Sun Sep 3 13:36:08 EDT 2006
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'd argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs  
> (Jorie
> Graham, Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc),  
> the  Greasers(Paul Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae  
> Armentrout, etc), and  the folks who think that there is a  
> difference between a Soc and a Greaser  but who claim to be neither  
> one nor the other(Bill Knott, Dean Young, David
> Lehman), but somehow elevated above the rumble. When I was in  
> highschool,
> kids like that were called Dorks because they didn't have any  
> friends. Or at
> least no friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease  
> might  have.
>
> (clipped from a post to the Poetics List)  (by Greg Gummer)
>
> *
> I'm named here as one who claims to be neither one
> nor the other, to be elevated above the rumble.
> Bbut I don't make such claims.
> Throughout my career, I've mostly tried to be the kind of poet
> here termed SOQ: I've tried to write mainstream poetry.
> (The poets I admire and emulate are all mainstream poets.)
> The fact that I was unable to achieve my goal and become a
> mainstream poet (or SOQ, if you will) doesn't make me part of
> a third group, it makes me part of the fourth and largest group
> of poets, the Failures.
>
> *
>
> <winmail.dat>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 12:10:30 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:10:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] gummer's aesthetic divide posted by jforjames
Message-ID: <c54.199b021.322efb76@aol.com>

 
I just want to repeat that was Jason's quote (re: poetry camps as
categories of high school cool) and not mine.
I didn't think failure was an option when you published with  FSG...
that puts you in the company of Walcott, Muldoon, CK Williams, 
& better yet Billy Corgan...
Finnegan
 
--
The Unsubscriber
Poems
Bill Knott
 
  Farrar, Straus and Giroux
136 pages
Size: 5 1/2 X x 8  1/4
$20.00
Hardcover
 
  ISBN:  0-374-26415-5




Eavesdroppers  fear
the hermit's soliloquy.
 
Wake up, wound, the knife said.
--from "To Live By"
 
Bill Knott's poetic manner--surreal yet vernacular, outrageous and  
tender--is unlike anything in contemporary American verse. In The Unsubscriber,  he 
investigates cloning laboratories and spaceships, cemeteries and  battlefields, 
talks to Damocles and pokes fun at Hamlet, witnesses the moments  before a 
seduction, and charts maps in the stars and in forests. Knott tells  fables, poses 
questions, shadows spies, and breathes new life into poetry's  oldest 
stories: love and war. The Unsubscriber is the first new book in a decade  by a 
fiercely iconoclastic American poet deserving of a wide audience.

"[Knott] is a vitally important American poet, a poet we should not and  
cannot ignore . . . He is alone and his poetry is both new and ancient. And we  
can share in it. Trust this poet. And celebrate for the rare gift he has given  
us." --Thomas Lux, Ploughshares
 
"Bill Knott's poems . . . are the poems Beckett's Gogo would write if he  
were among us." --Sharon Dunn, Massachusetts Review
 
"Bill Knot is a genius." --Tom Andrews, Ohio Review

Bill Knott is the author of ten previous volumes of poetry, including  his 
groundbreaking first book, The Naomi Poems (1968), and Laugh at the End of  the 
World: Collected Comic Poems 1969-1999. He is an associate professor at  
Emerson College.
 
 
In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:29:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes:

JforJames at aol.com JforJames at aol.com 
Sun Sep 3 13:36:08 EDT  2006  

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd  argue that there are therefore at least three groups, the Socs (Jorie   
Graham, Billy Collins, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds, Glyn Maxwell etc),  the  
Greasers(Paul Hoover, Ron Silliman, Charles Bernstein, Rae  Armentrout, etc), and  
the folks who think that there is a difference  between a Soc and a Greaser  
but who claim to be neither one nor the  other(Bill Knott, Dean Young, David  
Lehman), but somehow elevated  above the rumble. When I was in highschool,  
kids like that were  called Dorks because they didn't have any friends. Or at 
 
least no  friends who had the kind of clout that a Soc or a Grease might   
have.

(clipped from a post to the Poetics List)  (by Greg  Gummer)

*
I'm named here as one who claims to be neither one 
nor  the other, to be elevated above the rumble.
Bbut I don't make such  claims.  
Throughout my career, I've mostly tried to be the kind of  poet 
here termed SOQ: I've tried to write mainstream poetry.   
(The poets I admire and emulate are all mainstream poets.)
The fact  that I was unable to achieve my goal and become a 
mainstream poet (or SOQ,  if you will) doesn't make me part of 
a third group, it makes me part of  the fourth and largest group 
of poets, the  Failures.


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/d77046dc/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep  5 12:44:34 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mo natterin' bout po no matterin'
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0609050523p75d40f93y2a0cc277c88d1657@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609050944340.1507@hymn07.u.washington.edu>

I certainly don't think that pop lyrics are the future of poetry. I just want to point out that they ARE poetry and are consumed by the masses, as a counter to the complaint that "the masses don't care about poetry any more." There are some great pop lyricists out there, and a lot of them have been mentioned lately, but the pop lyric form has different requirements than does poetry written to be read, just as slam poetry has different requirements and most of it taken without the performance element is largely pretty limp. Which is to say, just because there is poetry everywhere, it doesn't follow that there is GOOD poetry everywhere.


On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Chris Lott wrote:

> re: Spektor as poet (ju st to choose an example)....
>
> I'm just not seeing it. She is more lyrically sophisticated than many
> other pop artists, but bereft of the music I don't see much
> particularly good poetry there. Which isn't surprising-- it's akin to
> saying "without all those nouns and verbs, his writing isn't
> particularly strong."
>
> I'm glad there are sophisticated pop lyricists (like I said, I listen
> to a lot of pop :) but their emphasis is-- rightly-- not on the words
> and the product shows it. If that were the future of poetry, I think
> it'd be pretty sad because a lot of fthe potential power would be
> permanently lost.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep  5 12:57:14 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:57:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] gummer's aesthetic divide posted by jforjames
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EA0@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609050957140.1507@hymn07.u.washington.edu>

Mr Knott
I dunno who greg gummer is, but i'm the one who came up with the SE Hinton Taxonomy and cast you as an exemplar of the third group. Maybe James Tate would have been a better example. Anyway, for that mischaracterization, I apologize. It's largely a fall out, I think, of an ongoing discussion with a friend in Iowa who thinks you're much cooler than the other soc's and argues with me every time i try to lump you in with them.

Although, in all fairness to my assessment, your own characterization of the "school of noisiness" and the acknowledgement the school of quietude here would seem to put you outside the fray as my understanding of Silliman's definition of the SoQ is that one of the pre-requisites for membership is denying that there is any such club. Which is something I was talking about earlier in the email that the Hinton Taxonomy was clipped from.

yrs,
jfq

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, William Knott wrote:
> (clipped from a post to the Poetics List)  (by Greg Gummer)
>
> *
> I'm named here as one who claims to be neither one
> nor the other, to be elevated above the rumble.
> Bbut I don't make such claims.
> Throughout my career, I've mostly tried to be the kind of poet
> here termed SOQ: I've tried to write mainstream poetry.
> (The poets I admire and emulate are all mainstream poets.)
> The fact that I was unable to achieve my goal and become a
> mainstream poet (or SOQ, if you will) doesn't make me part of
> a third group, it makes me part of the fourth and largest group
> of poets, the Failures.
>




From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Tue Sep  5 14:00:59 2006
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:00:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Come In From the Cold
Message-ID: <44FD831B020000040063E35C@gwise.louisville.edu>

Is this just vulgar electricity
   Is this the edifying fire
   (it was so pure)
   Does your smile's covert complicity
   Debase as it admires
   (just a flu with a temperature)
   Are you just checking out your mojo
   (oohoo)
   Or am I just fighting off growing old
   (just a high fever)
   All I ever wanted
   Was just to come in from the cold

[Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]

Without googling (promise): Joni Mitchell, from the Night Ride Home
album.

Do I get my A now?

Alan Golding
Resident Sourcemonger


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep  5 14:32:36 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 20:32:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Come In From the Cold
References: <44FD831B020000040063E35C@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <00e601c6d119$a95b0520$37ad3252@ANNY>

Come on Alan, 

someone answered before you!
No A's no nothing for you,

that's it.
Respectfully,

Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan C Golding" <acgold01 at louisville.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Come In From the Cold


> Is this just vulgar electricity
>   Is this the edifying fire
>   (it was so pure)
>   Does your smile's covert complicity
>   Debase as it admires
>   (just a flu with a temperature)
>   Are you just checking out your mojo
>   (oohoo)
>   Or am I just fighting off growing old
>   (just a high fever)
>   All I ever wanted
>   Was just to come in from the cold
> 
> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
> 
> Without googling (promise): Joni Mitchell, from the Night Ride Home
> album.
> 
> Do I get my A now?
> 
> Alan Golding
> Resident Sourcemonger
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 17:47:08 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:47:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609051447u7dc4662m5ac67620f44ecf7c@mail.gmail.com>

oh go on, you liked him really

On 9/5/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Leave the Animals Alone
>
>
>
> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
>
>
>
> So sorry about that stingray's direct
>
> hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
>
> to say something for a long time:
>
> Leave the fucking animals alone.
>
> Let them live in the dignity of their
>
> natural environment. They don't need
>
> your nest-probing camera,
>
> they don't want to be mounted by a man
>
> in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
>
> their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
>
> must, but don't make animals accomplices
>
> to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
>
> The crocodile and anaconda are gods
>
> of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
>
> prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
>
> the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
>
> as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
>
> as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
>
> They all want to left alone. And the ones
>
> that are dangerous kill because killing
>
> has kept them alive. We're supposed
>
> the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
> course.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 18:55:24 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 18:55:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
Message-ID: <c25.353dc99.322f5a5c@aol.com>

 
Ehy the guy had a wife and two kids. Have some respect.
 
In a message dated 9/5/2006 5:47:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
rog3r.day at gmail.com writes:

X-INFO:  INVALID TO LINE
oh go on, you liked him really

On 9/5/06,  JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Leave the Animals  Alone
>
>
>
> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The  Crocodile Hunter
>
>
>
> So sorry about that  stingray's direct
>
> hit to your heart, but I've been  meaning
>
> to say something for a long time:
>
>  Leave the fucking animals alone.
>
> Let them live in the dignity  of their
>
> natural environment. They don't need
>
>  your nest-probing camera,
>
> they don't want to be mounted by a  man
>
> in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them  show
>
> their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
>
>  must, but don't make animals accomplices
>
> to a carnival geek's  unseemly acts.
>
> The crocodile and anaconda are  gods
>
> of this earth. I don't see you cavorting  with
>
> prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
>
>  the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
>
> as it  feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
>
> as its  home is eaten away by backhoes.
>
> They all want to left alone.  And the ones
>
> that are dangerous kill because  killing
>
> has kept them alive. We're supposed
>
>  the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
>  course.
> _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--  
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not  experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original  Klingon.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing  list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/e0dac9dd/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  5 19:16:04 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:16:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009901c6d141$43e6b3b0$66b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Sorry to say so, James, but this piece of advocature seems insane to me.  How can anyone leave the animals alone?  Every house that's built interferes with animals.  Perhaps you don't eat them yourself, but what's so moral about interfering with fruit trees and vegetables?  And why should one huge segment of reality be declared off-limits to the search for truth?  I don't know much about the crocodile man, but I do know that his way of not leaving the animals alone is a lot better than the way of destroyers of forests and rivers, etc.--and that getting rid of his kind will merely make them even more dominant than they are.

--Bob G. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 7:52 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


  Leave the Animals Alone

   

  Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter 

   

  So sorry about that stingray?s direct

  hit to your heart, but I?ve been meaning

  to say something for a long time:

  Leave the fucking animals alone.

  Let them live in the dignity of their 

  natural environment. They don?t need

  your nest-probing camera, 

  they don?t want to be mounted by a man

  in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show 

  their teeth. Mug for the camera if you

  must, but don?t make animals accomplices

  to a carnival geek?s unseemly acts.

  The crocodile and anaconda are gods 

  of this earth. I don?t see you cavorting with

  prairie dogs. I don?t see you wrestling

  the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth

  as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest?s canopy

  as its home is eaten away by backhoes.

  They all want to left alone. And the ones

  that are dangerous kill because killing

  has kept them alive. We?re supposed

  the smarter species. So long, Steve,

  natural selection again takes its course.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/f03353b5/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep  5 19:18:01 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:18:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical
References: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu> <44FCABE9.8050008@myuw.net>
	<4814292D-8D4E-4033-ACBC-7C4C09419824@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00af01c6d141$8935c640$66b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I guessed Dylan myself.  Now I guess a Dylan imitator.

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:08 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lyrical


  No, not Dylan.






  On Sep 4, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote:


    at's dylan innit?




      I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
      whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?


         Is this just vulgar electricity
         Is this the edifying fire
         (it was so pure)
         Does your smile's covert complicity
         Debase as it admires
         (just a flu with a temperature)
         Are you just checking out your mojo
         (oohoo)
         Or am I just fighting off growing old
         (just a high fever)
         All I ever wanted
         Was just to come in from the cold


      [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]





  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/ca8e2695/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Tue Sep  5 20:27:13 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:27:13 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Come In From the Cold
References: <44FD831B020000040063E35C@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <004b01c6d14b$35728d90$0301010a@galaxy>

no , i beat you to it!
DD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan C Golding" <acgold01 at louisville.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 4:00 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Come In From the Cold


> Is this just vulgar electricity
>    Is this the edifying fire
>    (it was so pure)
>    Does your smile's covert complicity
>    Debase as it admires
>    (just a flu with a temperature)
>    Are you just checking out your mojo
>    (oohoo)
>    Or am I just fighting off growing old
>    (just a high fever)
>    All I ever wanted
>    Was just to come in from the cold
> 
> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
> 
> Without googling (promise): Joni Mitchell, from the Night Ride Home
> album.
> 
> Do I get my A now?
> 
> Alan Golding
> Resident Sourcemonger
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From debra at debradicembre.com  Tue Sep  5 20:34:51 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:34:51 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
	<fde503480609051447u7dc4662m5ac67620f44ecf7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005901c6d14c$45731f10$0301010a@galaxy>

Steve probably spent at least a million dollars for every word in your
anti-elegy, ensuring the animals you speak of, will have an environment to
live in , long long after you and he and me , have passed.
>>>because killing kept them alive.
Not in 2006 my friend.
It'd take a seat in Parliment.
Actually it'd take a few.

I wonder which they'd prefer?
DD
a ripper of an aussie sheila

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


> oh go on, you liked him really
>
> On 9/5/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Leave the Animals Alone
> >
> >
> >
> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
> >
> >
> >
> > So sorry about that stingray's direct
> >
> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
> >
> > to say something for a long time:
> >
> > Leave the fucking animals alone.
> >
> > Let them live in the dignity of their
> >
> > natural environment. They don't need
> >
> > your nest-probing camera,
> >
> > they don't want to be mounted by a man
> >
> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
> >
> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> >
> > must, but don't make animals accomplices
> >
> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
> >
> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods
> >
> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
> >
> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
> >
> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> >
> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
> >
> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
> >
> > They all want to left alone. And the ones
> >
> > that are dangerous kill because killing
> >
> > has kept them alive. We're supposed
> >
> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
> > course.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> original Klingon.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From debra at debradicembre.com  Tue Sep  5 20:35:10 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:35:10 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <c25.353dc99.322f5a5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c6d14c$5108f8e0$0301010a@galaxy>

ditto
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


  Ehy the guy had a wife and two kids. Have some respect.

  In a message dated 9/5/2006 5:47:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes:
    X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
    oh go on, you liked him really

    On 9/5/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Leave the Animals Alone
    >
    >
    >
    > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
    >
    >
    >
    > So sorry about that stingray's direct
    >
    > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
    >
    > to say something for a long time:
    >
    > Leave the fucking animals alone.
    >
    > Let them live in the dignity of their
    >
    > natural environment. They don't need
    >
    > your nest-probing camera,
    >
    > they don't want to be mounted by a man
    >
    > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
    >
    > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
    >
    > must, but don't make animals accomplices
    >
    > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
    >
    > The crocodile and anaconda are gods
    >
    > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
    >
    > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
    >
    > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
    >
    > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
    >
    > as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
    >
    > They all want to left alone. And the ones
    >
    > that are dangerous kill because killing
    >
    > has kept them alive. We're supposed
    >
    > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
    > course.
    > _______________________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
    >
    >
    >


    -- 
    http://www.badstep.net/
    http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
    You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
    original Klingon.
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/adc84f84/attachment.html>

From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Tue Sep  5 21:41:33 2006
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:41:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <d4b5c75cfc0f.44fdef0d@mail.nyu.edu>

Tasteless.
-------------- next part --------------
 
Leave the Animals Alone 
Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter  
So sorry about that stingray?s direct 
hit to your heart, but I?ve been meaning 
to say something for a long time: 
Leave the fucking animals alone. 
Let them live in the dignity of their  
natural environment. They don?t need 
your nest-probing camera,  
they don?t want to be mounted by a man 
in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show  
their teeth. Mug for the camera if you 
must, but don?t make animals accomplices 
to a carnival geek?s unseemly acts. 
The crocodile and anaconda are gods  
of this earth. I don?t see you cavorting with 
prairie dogs. I don?t see you wrestling 
the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth 
as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest?s canopy 
as its home is eaten away by backhoes. 
They all want to left alone. And the ones 
that are dangerous kill because killing 
has kept them alive. We?re supposed 
the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural  selection again takes its course.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/f116bd3a/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Tue Sep  5 22:34:23 2006
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:34:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse 
Message-ID: <44FE33AF.8040206@ilstu.edu>

__________________________________
http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com

A common game found in male-male interactions in the poetry world is 
that of "Courtroom." This is a game consisting of the communal 
assignation, rejection or adoption of othering labels. Other parts of 
the game involve stuff like the shout, the name-call, and, most often, 
the adoption of an apodictic, judicious tone. In "courtroom" one gets to 
play at being very, very certain. I wonder if a primary spur for this 
game is not the "call" that aesthetics makes, in the minds of some, for 
judgment.

But "Courtroom" is only about judgment at its surface; its "payoff" is 
found in the way individuals and groups are moved away from the 
naturally skeptical, open mindset that most healthy people adopt when 
faced with complex issues. The game is marked by the movement away from 
that mindstate, into states characterized by combative certitude, ad 
hominem communication, and energetic entrenchments of opinion. Thus 
"courtroom" moves away from a hermeneutic mindset, away from an 
affiliative mode and gentleness, away from a hermeneutic openness (or 
more interpretive modes), and toward a rejective mode of ressentiment.

The game of Courtroom seems less often to be played in reviews (tho it 
is there) and more often on blogs or on listserves. The game seems to 
need a perceived Persecutor and a perceived Victim -- and at times a 
host of "rescuers" may chime in. It can be much like Jerry Springer. 
(Think of the at times extremely violent contention found in comment box 
fora on various blogs; I can think of four poet bloggers who recently 
have either shut down their entire blogs or have shut off their comment 
box features, as I have done, because of this transactive game). In 
post-avant circles, the persecutor can often be "mainstream" poetry or 
"language poetry," or even "post-avant" poetry itself -- either 
represented in toto or by certain key and named people.

"The review" and "the defense" also at times model this game -- this 
exchange can be a slow and deliberate, often long-winded series of 
legitimations, rationales and rebuttals concerned with demarcating an 
"inside" and an "outside," and then placing X, Y, or Z in those areas.

One quite famous poetry blog in fact seems frequently to participate in 
rehashing a binaric othering "label game" over and over -- which is 
perhaps one reason for its extreme popularity: though perhaps this is 
not what its author intends, the blog I refer to seems for many of its 
readers to present the comfort of a black-and-white world, while 
providing just enough unpredictability in the labeling to keep folks 
guessing as to who's in and who's out. It's not unlike reality tv.

And so, because there is historically in poetry so much male-on-male 
contention and a prevalence of combative transactional games and 
cultural scripts for poets, including the script of "revolution," such 
that the choice not to participate in such contentious discourse, while 
still naming it and removing oneself from it, might be considered 
difficult, and in fact might cause one to be called a goody-goody, I 
thought it fitting to post the below inspiring text, because it speaks 
to the refusal to acquiesce to such things, and the possibility of doing 
so from an affiliative, warm, and non-combative position.

So for those who, like me, shy away from religion and religious 
concerns, understand that the word "Dhamma," as used in the excerpt 
below, neither connotes nor denotes anything religious. It is a secular 
term referencing a moral system and an experiential training in what 
could loosely be called an "art of living," in the ancient tradition of 
the Ars Vivendi. It's just a "funny" word to describe something quite 
powerful in its efficacy. If practiced.

"Realistically, in the ambiguous rough-and-tumble of householder?s life 
and public discourse, the student of Dhamma may need to call upon 
difficult decisions, unpopular stances, and unflattering sentences; and 
he or she will be called upon also to recognize the complexity and 
ambiguity that rests on the shoulders of those who have positioned 
themselves to make decisions in a world of turmoil and suffering. But 
the lifelong devotee of Dhamma understands that the goal of every moment 
is to generate empathy and compassion, to minimize anger and hate.

This double layer is part and parcel of the Buddha?s teaching: to 
generate skillful, maximally beneficial conduct simultaneously with 
affiliative, non-retaliatory, identifitory feelings. Nonviolence is only 
the surface layer of a heart of love and compassion. Few honest people 
can say they feel nothing else, but for the student of the Buddha?s 
path, for the practitioner of Dhamma, a pure heart is the goal of every 
moment, no matter how many thousands of times one?s real feelings fall 
short of this ideal.

Due to this focus on volition, Dhamma awakens its practitioners to 
continuously assess one?s own state of mind, and not just to act. What 
appears to be noble restraint from retaliation may only be fear or 
expeditious tactics. What appears to be strong defense of helpless 
people may only be ego-boosting aggression. The Buddha?s primacy on 
intention allows him to consider a proper role for benign force, as Dr. 
Olendzki has shown in his analysis of the Buddha?s discussion of how a 
parent must act if a small child were choking on a pebble [Insight, Fall 
2001]. In this case, even drawing blood could be compassionate. 
Nonviolence has room for strong actions whose origins rest in concerned 
and caring motives.

Similarly, passive, acquiescent enabling of violence is not Dhamma. We 
have seen how the Buddha reassured the general that Dhamma is not 
inactivity. We have also seen how speaking up on behalf of Dhamma is 
part of the definition of a committed meditator. If one truly believes 
that qualities of heart and mind constitute enlightenment, and that the 
highest welfare for all beings is a life of harmony and peace, then 
permitting someone else to perpetrate harm without consequences is not 
nonviolence."

-- Paul Fleischman, from The Buddha Taught Nonviolence, not Pacifism 
(Pariyatti Press, 2002)

- Gabe Gudding


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 23:09:40 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 23:09:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
Message-ID: <456.572ee69.322f95f4@aol.com>

Sorry he had a wife and kids (one of whom 
as a baby he held up to a croc with a chicken tidbit
in his free hand, rather enticingly)...but I fail to see his having 
a family as prophylactic to criticism. Not to 
overdefend the dashed-off antielegy, but I honestly
had that poem (such as it is) in me for a long
time...happily provoked to composition by his untimely death,
'doing the things he loved'. Irwin (who is a
media creation after all) epitomizes all that is 
wrong with human and animal (by extension
the natural world) interaction. 
A carnival geek posing a naturalist for the telivsion age.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060905/7bc128dc/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Tue Sep  5 23:42:14 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:42:14 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <d4b5c75cfc0f.44fdef0d@mail.nyu.edu>
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com> <d4b5c75cfc0f.44fdef0d@mail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <BAAD0F23-AAB7-4306-8C6A-DE406806ABB1@bigpond.com>

Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and  
spent a lot of his fortune
buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had  
endangered species
on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people.  
Sure, he gave
the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate  
for their survival, not demise.


A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
long-handled shovel
lies on the reef
in less than two meters
of tropical water -
so clear, and on this morning
so still, you'd swear
you could see and hear the rust at work
on a magnified, metal face.
As with cabin bells, anchors,
coins and other components
from a ship the reef had scuttled,
the shovel will soon be found:
a free diver with coral
and fish on her mind,
or someone in search of material
for a televison special
on the deadly side to living
creatures in this sea.
Whoever comes, they will
descend and take the shovel
in their hands, not thinking
of how a splinter can do more
than cause infection, being this far
from the wood's origins
and so far from the shore.




On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:

> Tasteless.
> Leave the Animals Alone
>
> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
>
> So sorry about that stingray?s direct
> hit to your heart, but I?ve been meaning
> to say something for a long time:
> Leave the fucking animals alone.
> Let them live in the dignity of their
> natural environment. They don?t need
> your nest-probing camera,
> they don?t want to be mounted by a man
> in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
> their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> must, but don?t make animals accomplices
> to a carnival geek?s unseemly acts.
> The crocodile and anaconda are gods
> of this earth. I don?t see you cavorting with
> prairie dogs. I don?t see you wrestling
> the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest?s canopy
> as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
> They all want to left alone. And the ones
> that are dangerous kill because killing
> has kept them alive. We?re supposed
> the smarter species. So long, Steve,
> natural selection again takes its course.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/3668d202/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Wed Sep  6 02:39:29 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:39:29 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <456.572ee69.322f95f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c6d17f$35fc8070$0301010a@galaxy>

I guess you would have had to have met him in his natural habitat to make such an observation...you did meet him didn't you?

DD
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


  Sorry he had a wife and kids (one of whom 
  as a baby he held up to a croc with a chicken tidbit
  in his free hand, rather enticingly)...but I fail to see his having 
  a family as prophylactic to criticism. Not to 
  overdefend the dashed-off antielegy, but I honestly
  had that poem (such as it is) in me for a long
  time...happily provoked to composition by his untimely death,
  'doing the things he loved'. Irwin (who is a
  media creation after all) epitomizes all that is 
  wrong with human and animal (by extension
  the natural world) interaction. 
  A carnival geek posing a naturalist for the telivsion age.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/8f3c0ff6/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Wed Sep  6 03:29:06 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 03:29:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse 
References: <44FE33AF.8040206@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <001f01c6d186$23266720$6701a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

There's a poetry blog that has extreme popularity?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse


> __________________________________
> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com
>
> A common game found in male-male interactions in the poetry world is that 
> of "Courtroom." This is a game consisting of the communal assignation, 
> rejection or adoption of othering labels. Other parts of the game involve 
> stuff like the shout, the name-call, and, most often, the adoption of an 
> apodictic, judicious tone. In "courtroom" one gets to play at being very, 
> very certain. I wonder if a primary spur for this game is not the "call" 
> that aesthetics makes, in the minds of some, for judgment.
>
> But "Courtroom" is only about judgment at its surface; its "payoff" is 
> found in the way individuals and groups are moved away from the naturally 
> skeptical, open mindset that most healthy people adopt when faced with 
> complex issues. The game is marked by the movement away from that 
> mindstate, into states characterized by combative certitude, ad hominem 
> communication, and energetic entrenchments of opinion. Thus "courtroom" 
> moves away from a hermeneutic mindset, away from an affiliative mode and 
> gentleness, away from a hermeneutic openness (or more interpretive modes), 
> and toward a rejective mode of ressentiment.
>
> The game of Courtroom seems less often to be played in reviews (tho it is 
> there) and more often on blogs or on listserves. The game seems to need a 
> perceived Persecutor and a perceived Victim -- and at times a host of 
> "rescuers" may chime in. It can be much like Jerry Springer. (Think of the 
> at times extremely violent contention found in comment box fora on various 
> blogs; I can think of four poet bloggers who recently have either shut 
> down their entire blogs or have shut off their comment box features, as I 
> have done, because of this transactive game). In post-avant circles, the 
> persecutor can often be "mainstream" poetry or "language poetry," or even 
> "post-avant" poetry itself -- either represented in toto or by certain key 
> and named people.
>
> "The review" and "the defense" also at times model this game -- this 
> exchange can be a slow and deliberate, often long-winded series of 
> legitimations, rationales and rebuttals concerned with demarcating an 
> "inside" and an "outside," and then placing X, Y, or Z in those areas.
>
> One quite famous poetry blog in fact seems frequently to participate in 
> rehashing a binaric othering "label game" over and over -- which is 
> perhaps one reason for its extreme popularity: though perhaps this is not 
> what its author intends, the blog I refer to seems for many of its readers 
> to present the comfort of a black-and-white world, while providing just 
> enough unpredictability in the labeling to keep folks guessing as to who's 
> in and who's out. It's not unlike reality tv.
>
> And so, because there is historically in poetry so much male-on-male 
> contention and a prevalence of combative transactional games and cultural 
> scripts for poets, including the script of "revolution," such that the 
> choice not to participate in such contentious discourse, while still 
> naming it and removing oneself from it, might be considered difficult, and 
> in fact might cause one to be called a goody-goody, I thought it fitting 
> to post the below inspiring text, because it speaks to the refusal to 
> acquiesce to such things, and the possibility of doing so from an 
> affiliative, warm, and non-combative position.
>
> So for those who, like me, shy away from religion and religious concerns, 
> understand that the word "Dhamma," as used in the excerpt below, neither 
> connotes nor denotes anything religious. It is a secular term referencing 
> a moral system and an experiential training in what could loosely be 
> called an "art of living," in the ancient tradition of the Ars Vivendi. 
> It's just a "funny" word to describe something quite powerful in its 
> efficacy. If practiced.
>
> "Realistically, in the ambiguous rough-and-tumble of householder?s life 
> and public discourse, the student of Dhamma may need to call upon 
> difficult decisions, unpopular stances, and unflattering sentences; and he 
> or she will be called upon also to recognize the complexity and ambiguity 
> that rests on the shoulders of those who have positioned themselves to 
> make decisions in a world of turmoil and suffering. But the lifelong 
> devotee of Dhamma understands that the goal of every moment is to generate 
> empathy and compassion, to minimize anger and hate.
>
> This double layer is part and parcel of the Buddha?s teaching: to generate 
> skillful, maximally beneficial conduct simultaneously with affiliative, 
> non-retaliatory, identifitory feelings. Nonviolence is only the surface 
> layer of a heart of love and compassion. Few honest people can say they 
> feel nothing else, but for the student of the Buddha?s path, for the 
> practitioner of Dhamma, a pure heart is the goal of every moment, no 
> matter how many thousands of times one?s real feelings fall short of this 
> ideal.
>
> Due to this focus on volition, Dhamma awakens its practitioners to 
> continuously assess one?s own state of mind, and not just to act. What 
> appears to be noble restraint from retaliation may only be fear or 
> expeditious tactics. What appears to be strong defense of helpless people 
> may only be ego-boosting aggression. The Buddha?s primacy on intention 
> allows him to consider a proper role for benign force, as Dr. Olendzki has 
> shown in his analysis of the Buddha?s discussion of how a parent must act 
> if a small child were choking on a pebble [Insight, Fall 2001]. In this 
> case, even drawing blood could be compassionate. Nonviolence has room for 
> strong actions whose origins rest in concerned and caring motives.
>
> Similarly, passive, acquiescent enabling of violence is not Dhamma. We 
> have seen how the Buddha reassured the general that Dhamma is not 
> inactivity. We have also seen how speaking up on behalf of Dhamma is part 
> of the definition of a committed meditator. If one truly believes that 
> qualities of heart and mind constitute enlightenment, and that the highest 
> welfare for all beings is a life of harmony and peace, then permitting 
> someone else to perpetrate harm without consequences is not nonviolence."
>
> -- Paul Fleischman, from The Buddha Taught Nonviolence, not Pacifism 
> (Pariyatti Press, 2002)
>
> - Gabe Gudding
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep  6 06:27:10 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 06:27:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com> <d4b5c75cfc0f.44fdef0d@mail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <005301c6d19f$0406d640$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Tasteless.


--Christopher Kelly


I don't care--I still disagree with it.

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/845f94a9/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 07:15:26 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:15:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
Message-ID: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>

 
In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to  animals, 
such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment.  I'm 
not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary  (we 
have an overabundance of deer).
 
In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:

Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent  a 
lot of his fortune
buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had  
endangered species
on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people.  Sure, 
he gave
the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for  
their survival, not demise.



A broad-headed, round-mouthed, 
long-handled shovel 
lies on the reef 
in less than two meters 
of tropical water -
so clear, and on this morning 
so still, you'd swear 
you could see and hear the rust at work 
on a magnified, metal face.
As with cabin bells, anchors, 
coins and other components 
from a ship the reef had scuttled,
the shovel will soon be found: 
a free diver with coral
and fish on her mind,
or someone in search of material 
for a televison special
on the deadly side to living
creatures in this sea.
Whoever comes, they will 
descend and take the shovel
in their hands, not thinking
of how a splinter can do more
than cause infection, being this far
from the wood's origins
and so far from the shore.








On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:


Tasteless.
 
Leave  the Animals Alone
 
Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile  Hunter 
 
So  sorry about that stingray?s direct
hit to  your heart, but I?ve been meaning
to say  something for a long time:
Leave  the fucking animals alone.
Let  them live in the dignity of their 
natural  environment. They don?t need
your  nest-probing camera, 
they  don?t want to be mounted by a man
in  boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show 
their  teeth. Mug for the camera if you
must,  but don?t make animals accomplices
to a  carnival geek?s unseemly acts.
The  crocodile and anaconda are gods 
of this  earth. I don?t see you cavorting with
prairie  dogs. I don?t see you wrestling
the  stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
as it  feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest?s canopy
as its  home is eaten away by backhoes.
They  all want to left alone. And the ones
that  are dangerous kill because killing
has  kept them alive. We?re supposed
the  smarter species. So long, Steve,
natural  selection again takes its course.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
_New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
_http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ 
(http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
_New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
_http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ (http://
wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 




Anthony Lawrence
_ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com_ (mailto:ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com) 









-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/ed9dd767/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 10:53:23 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:53:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>

one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of
an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity
rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less
courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin.

My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no
sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather,
poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction.
Much like western fishing fleets.

R

On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to animals,
> such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment. I'm
> not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary
> (we have an overabundance of deer).
>
>
> In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
>
>
> Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent a
> lot of his fortune
> buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had
> endangered species
> on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people. Sure,
> he gave
> the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for
> their survival, not demise.
>
>
>
> A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
> long-handled shovel
> lies on the reef
> in less than two meters
> of tropical water -
> so clear, and on this morning
> so still, you'd swear
> you could see and hear the rust at work
> on a magnified, metal face.
> As with cabin bells, anchors,
> coins and other components
> from a ship the reef had scuttled,
> the shovel will soon be found:
> a free diver with coral
> and fish on her mind,
> or someone in search of material
> for a televison special
> on the deadly side to living
> creatures in this sea.
> Whoever comes, they will
> descend and take the shovel
> in their hands, not thinking
> of how a splinter can do more
> than cause infection, being this far
> from the wood's origins
> and so far from the shore.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
>
>
>
> Tasteless.
>
> Leave the Animals Alone
>
> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
>
> So sorry about that stingray's direct
> hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
> to say something for a long time:
> Leave the fucking animals alone.
> Let them live in the dignity of their
> natural environment. They don't need
> your nest-probing camera,
> they don't want to be mounted by a man
> in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
> their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> must, but don't make animals accomplices
> to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
> The crocodile and anaconda are gods
> of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
> prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
> the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
> as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
> They all want to left alone. And the ones
> that are dangerous kill because killing
> has kept them alive. We're supposed
> the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
> course.
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> Anthony Lawrence
> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 11:29:45 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:29:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>
	<fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a class act:

"Troy Gentry is one half of top country music duo Montgomery Gentry.
He's built up an image as a hard-living hunting, shooting and fishing
fan, but Troy turns out to be no Ted Nugent."

"Gentry has just appeared in court for killing a tame bear, Cubby.
Apparently Gentry paid his friend Lee Greenly, who owns a wildlife
refuge in Minnesota, $4,650 for the tame bear. Cubby was shot by
Gentry with a bow and arrow while just standing in his pen. Gentry
videotaped the slaying, and then doctored the tape to make it look
he'd killed the bear in the wild, and then shipped the bear to a
taxidermist so he could show off his "prize". Both men face up to five
years in prison if convicted."

On 9/6/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of
> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity
> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less
> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin.
>
> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no
> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather,
> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction.
> Much like western fishing fleets.
>
> R
>
> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to animals,
> > such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment. I'm
> > not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary
> > (we have an overabundance of deer).
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
> >
> >
> > Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent a
> > lot of his fortune
> > buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had
> > endangered species
> > on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people. Sure,
> > he gave
> > the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for
> > their survival, not demise.
> >
> >
> >
> > A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
> > long-handled shovel
> > lies on the reef
> > in less than two meters
> > of tropical water -
> > so clear, and on this morning
> > so still, you'd swear
> > you could see and hear the rust at work
> > on a magnified, metal face.
> > As with cabin bells, anchors,
> > coins and other components
> > from a ship the reef had scuttled,
> > the shovel will soon be found:
> > a free diver with coral
> > and fish on her mind,
> > or someone in search of material
> > for a televison special
> > on the deadly side to living
> > creatures in this sea.
> > Whoever comes, they will
> > descend and take the shovel
> > in their hands, not thinking
> > of how a splinter can do more
> > than cause infection, being this far
> > from the wood's origins
> > and so far from the shore.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Tasteless.
> >
> > Leave the Animals Alone
> >
> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
> >
> > So sorry about that stingray's direct
> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
> > to say something for a long time:
> > Leave the fucking animals alone.
> > Let them live in the dignity of their
> > natural environment. They don't need
> > your nest-probing camera,
> > they don't want to be mounted by a man
> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> > must, but don't make animals accomplices
> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods
> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
> > They all want to left alone. And the ones
> > that are dangerous kill because killing
> > has kept them alive. We're supposed
> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
> > course.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> > Anthony Lawrence
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> original Klingon.
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep  6 11:36:12 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:36:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not leaving the animals alone
In-Reply-To: <BAAD0F23-AAB7-4306-8C6A-DE406806ABB1@bigpond.com>
References: <c01.36f7198.322e1653@aol.com> <d4b5c75cfc0f.44fdef0d@mail.nyu.edu>
	<BAAD0F23-AAB7-4306-8C6A-DE406806ABB1@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <708B6649-514B-43FF-8AA0-55A8D505C38B@ripon.edu>

Behaving Like a Jew

  When I got there the dead opossum looked like
  an enormous baby sleeping on the road.
  It took me only a few seconds--just
  seeing him there--with the hole in his back
  and the wind blowing through his hair
  to get back again into my animal sorrow.
  I am sick of the country, the bloodstained
  bumpers, the stiff hairs sticking out of the grilles,
  the slimy highways, the heavy birds
  refusing to move;
  I am sick of the spirit of Lindbergh over everything,
  that joy in death, that philosophical
  understanding of carnage, that
  concentration on the species.
  --I am going to be unappeased at the opposum's death.
  I am going to behave like a Jew
  and touch his face, and stare into his eyes,
  and pull him off the road.
  I am not going to stand in a wet ditch
  with the Toyotas and the Chevies passing over me
  at sixty miles an hour
  and praise the beauty and the balance
  and lose myself in the immortal lifestream
  when my hands are still a little shaky
  from his stiffness and his bulk
  and my eyes are still weak and misty
  from his round belly and his curved fingers
  and his black whiskers and his little dancing feet.

--Gerald Stern.   Lucky Life.  Houghton Mifflin, 1977.
==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/ebe1985e/attachment.html>

From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Sep  6 12:13:35 2006
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:13:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <200609061600.k86G05EH030432@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200609061600.k86G05EH030432@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <44FEF3AF.2040709@ilstu.edu>

james, yes there is a poetry blog that has extreme popularity. true. - gabe

new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Leave the Animals Alone (Debra Dicembre)
>    2. Re: the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse  (TheOldMole)
>    3. Re: Leave the Animals Alone (Bob Grumman)
>    4. Re: Leave the Animals Alone (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
>    5. Re: Leave the Animals Alone (Roger Day)
>    6. Re: Leave the Animals Alone (Roger Day)
>    7. Not leaving the animals alone (David Graham)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:39:29 +1000
> From: "Debra Dicembre" <debra at debradicembre.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <002501c6d17f$35fc8070$0301010a at galaxy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> I guess you would have had to have met him in his natural habitat to make such an observation...you did meet him didn't you?
> 
> DD
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JforJames at aol.com 
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:09 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
> 
> 
>   Sorry he had a wife and kids (one of whom 
>   as a baby he held up to a croc with a chicken tidbit
>   in his free hand, rather enticingly)...but I fail to see his having 
>   a family as prophylactic to criticism. Not to 
>   overdefend the dashed-off antielegy, but I honestly
>   had that poem (such as it is) in me for a long
>   time...happily provoked to composition by his untimely death,
>   'doing the things he loved'. Irwin (who is a
>   media creation after all) epitomizes all that is 
>   wrong with human and animal (by extension
>   the natural world) interaction. 
>   A carnival geek posing a naturalist for the telivsion age.
>   Finnegan
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/8f3c0ff6/attachment-0001.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 03:29:06 -0400
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse 
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <001f01c6d186$23266720$6701a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
> 	reply-type=response
> 
> There's a poetry blog that has extreme popularity?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:34 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse
> 
> 
>> __________________________________
>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com
>>
>> A common game found in male-male interactions in the poetry world is that 
>> of "Courtroom." This is a game consisting of the communal assignation, 
>> rejection or adoption of othering labels. Other parts of the game involve 
>> stuff like the shout, the name-call, and, most often, the adoption of an 
>> apodictic, judicious tone. In "courtroom" one gets to play at being very, 
>> very certain. I wonder if a primary spur for this game is not the "call" 
>> that aesthetics makes, in the minds of some, for judgment.
>>
>> But "Courtroom" is only about judgment at its surface; its "payoff" is 
>> found in the way individuals and groups are moved away from the naturally 
>> skeptical, open mindset that most healthy people adopt when faced with 
>> complex issues. The game is marked by the movement away from that 
>> mindstate, into states characterized by combative certitude, ad hominem 
>> communication, and energetic entrenchments of opinion. Thus "courtroom" 
>> moves away from a hermeneutic mindset, away from an affiliative mode and 
>> gentleness, away from a hermeneutic openness (or more interpretive modes), 
>> and toward a rejective mode of ressentiment.
>>
>> The game of Courtroom seems less often to be played in reviews (tho it is 
>> there) and more often on blogs or on listserves. The game seems to need a 
>> perceived Persecutor and a perceived Victim -- and at times a host of 
>> "rescuers" may chime in. It can be much like Jerry Springer. (Think of the 
>> at times extremely violent contention found in comment box fora on various 
>> blogs; I can think of four poet bloggers who recently have either shut 
>> down their entire blogs or have shut off their comment box features, as I 
>> have done, because of this transactive game). In post-avant circles, the 
>> persecutor can often be "mainstream" poetry or "language poetry," or even 
>> "post-avant" poetry itself -- either represented in toto or by certain key 
>> and named people.
>>
>> "The review" and "the defense" also at times model this game -- this 
>> exchange can be a slow and deliberate, often long-winded series of 
>> legitimations, rationales and rebuttals concerned with demarcating an 
>> "inside" and an "outside," and then placing X, Y, or Z in those areas.
>>
>> One quite famous poetry blog in fact seems frequently to participate in 
>> rehashing a binaric othering "label game" over and over -- which is 
>> perhaps one reason for its extreme popularity: though perhaps this is not 
>> what its author intends, the blog I refer to seems for many of its readers 
>> to present the comfort of a black-and-white world, while providing just 
>> enough unpredictability in the labeling to keep folks guessing as to who's 
>> in and who's out. It's not unlike reality tv.
>>
>> And so, because there is historically in poetry so much male-on-male 
>> contention and a prevalence of combative transactional games and cultural 
>> scripts for poets, including the script of "revolution," such that the 
>> choice not to participate in such contentious discourse, while still 
>> naming it and removing oneself from it, might be considered difficult, and 
>> in fact might cause one to be called a goody-goody, I thought it fitting 
>> to post the below inspiring text, because it speaks to the refusal to 
>> acquiesce to such things, and the possibility of doing so from an 
>> affiliative, warm, and non-combative position.
>>
>> So for those who, like me, shy away from religion and religious concerns, 
>> understand that the word "Dhamma," as used in the excerpt below, neither 
>> connotes nor denotes anything religious. It is a secular term referencing 
>> a moral system and an experiential training in what could loosely be 
>> called an "art of living," in the ancient tradition of the Ars Vivendi. 
>> It's just a "funny" word to describe something quite powerful in its 
>> efficacy. If practiced.
>>
>> "Realistically, in the ambiguous rough-and-tumble of householder?s life 
>> and public discourse, the student of Dhamma may need to call upon 
>> difficult decisions, unpopular stances, and unflattering sentences; and he 
>> or she will be called upon also to recognize the complexity and ambiguity 
>> that rests on the shoulders of those who have positioned themselves to 
>> make decisions in a world of turmoil and suffering. But the lifelong 
>> devotee of Dhamma understands that the goal of every moment is to generate 
>> empathy and compassion, to minimize anger and hate.
>>
>> This double layer is part and parcel of the Buddha?s teaching: to generate 
>> skillful, maximally beneficial conduct simultaneously with affiliative, 
>> non-retaliatory, identifitory feelings. Nonviolence is only the surface 
>> layer of a heart of love and compassion. Few honest people can say they 
>> feel nothing else, but for the student of the Buddha?s path, for the 
>> practitioner of Dhamma, a pure heart is the goal of every moment, no 
>> matter how many thousands of times one?s real feelings fall short of this 
>> ideal.
>>
>> Due to this focus on volition, Dhamma awakens its practitioners to 
>> continuously assess one?s own state of mind, and not just to act. What 
>> appears to be noble restraint from retaliation may only be fear or 
>> expeditious tactics. What appears to be strong defense of helpless people 
>> may only be ego-boosting aggression. The Buddha?s primacy on intention 
>> allows him to consider a proper role for benign force, as Dr. Olendzki has 
>> shown in his analysis of the Buddha?s discussion of how a parent must act 
>> if a small child were choking on a pebble [Insight, Fall 2001]. In this 
>> case, even drawing blood could be compassionate. Nonviolence has room for 
>> strong actions whose origins rest in concerned and caring motives.
>>
>> Similarly, passive, acquiescent enabling of violence is not Dhamma. We 
>> have seen how the Buddha reassured the general that Dhamma is not 
>> inactivity. We have also seen how speaking up on behalf of Dhamma is part 
>> of the definition of a committed meditator. If one truly believes that 
>> qualities of heart and mind constitute enlightenment, and that the highest 
>> welfare for all beings is a life of harmony and peace, then permitting 
>> someone else to perpetrate harm without consequences is not nonviolence."
>>
>> -- Paul Fleischman, from The Buddha Taught Nonviolence, not Pacifism 
>> (Pariyatti Press, 2002)
>>
>> - Gabe Gudding
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 06:27:10 -0400
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <005301c6d19f$0406d640$8db831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Tasteless.
> 
> 
> --Christopher Kelly
> 
> 
> I don't care--I still disagree with it.
> 
> --Bob G.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/845f94a9/attachment-0001.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:15:26 EDT
> From: AlMaginnes at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <224.2392767.323007ce at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
>  
> In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to  animals, 
> such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment.  I'm 
> not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary  (we 
> have an overabundance of deer).
>  
> In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
> 
> Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent  a 
> lot of his fortune
> buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had  
> endangered species
> on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people.  Sure, 
> he gave
> the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for  
> their survival, not demise.
> 
> 
> 
> A broad-headed, round-mouthed, 
> long-handled shovel 
> lies on the reef 
> in less than two meters 
> of tropical water -
> so clear, and on this morning 
> so still, you'd swear 
> you could see and hear the rust at work 
> on a magnified, metal face.
> As with cabin bells, anchors, 
> coins and other components 
> from a ship the reef had scuttled,
> the shovel will soon be found: 
> a free diver with coral
> and fish on her mind,
> or someone in search of material 
> for a televison special
> on the deadly side to living
> creatures in this sea.
> Whoever comes, they will 
> descend and take the shovel
> in their hands, not thinking
> of how a splinter can do more
> than cause infection, being this far
> from the wood's origins
> and so far from the shore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
> 
> 
> Tasteless.
>  
> Leave  the Animals Alone
>  
> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile  Hunter 
>  
> So  sorry about that stingray???s direct
> hit to  your heart, but I???ve been meaning
> to say  something for a long time:
> Leave  the fucking animals alone.
> Let  them live in the dignity of their 
> natural  environment. They don???t need
> your  nest-probing camera, 
> they  don???t want to be mounted by a man
> in  boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show 
> their  teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> must,  but don???t make animals accomplices
> to a  carnival geek???s unseemly acts.
> The  crocodile and anaconda are gods 
> of this  earth. I don???t see you cavorting with
> prairie  dogs. I don???t see you wrestling
> the  stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> as it  feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest???s canopy
> as its  home is eaten away by backhoes.
> They  all want to left alone. And the ones
> that  are dangerous kill because killing
> has  kept them alive. We???re supposed
> the  smarter species. So long, Steve,
> natural  selection again takes its course.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> _New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
> _http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ 
> (http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> _New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
> _http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ (http://
> wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony Lawrence
> _ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com_ (mailto:ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/ed9dd767/attachment-0001.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:53:23 +0100
> From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
> 	<fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of
> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity
> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less
> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin.
> 
> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no
> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather,
> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction.
> Much like western fishing fleets.
> 
> R
> 
> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to animals,
>> such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment. I'm
>> not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary
>> (we have an overabundance of deer).
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent a
>> lot of his fortune
>> buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had
>> endangered species
>> on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people. Sure,
>> he gave
>> the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for
>> their survival, not demise.
>>
>>
>>
>> A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
>> long-handled shovel
>> lies on the reef
>> in less than two meters
>> of tropical water -
>> so clear, and on this morning
>> so still, you'd swear
>> you could see and hear the rust at work
>> on a magnified, metal face.
>> As with cabin bells, anchors,
>> coins and other components
>> from a ship the reef had scuttled,
>> the shovel will soon be found:
>> a free diver with coral
>> and fish on her mind,
>> or someone in search of material
>> for a televison special
>> on the deadly side to living
>> creatures in this sea.
>> Whoever comes, they will
>> descend and take the shovel
>> in their hands, not thinking
>> of how a splinter can do more
>> than cause infection, being this far
>> from the wood's origins
>> and so far from the shore.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Tasteless.
>>
>> Leave the Animals Alone
>>
>> Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
>>
>> So sorry about that stingray's direct
>> hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
>> to say something for a long time:
>> Leave the fucking animals alone.
>> Let them live in the dignity of their
>> natural environment. They don't need
>> your nest-probing camera,
>> they don't want to be mounted by a man
>> in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
>> their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
>> must, but don't make animals accomplices
>> to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
>> The crocodile and anaconda are gods
>> of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
>> prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
>> the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
>> as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
>> as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
>> They all want to left alone. And the ones
>> that are dangerous kill because killing
>> has kept them alive. We're supposed
>> the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its
>> course.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony Lawrence
>> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
__________________________________
http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com
----------------------------------
Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, Illinois  61790
309.438.5284 (office)



From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 12:44:56 2006
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:44:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] not me again
In-Reply-To: <44FEF3AF.2040709@ilstu.edu>
References: <200609061600.k86G05EH030432@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<44FEF3AF.2040709@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <8C89FEAEB6AA18C-F34-3FF@mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com>

That was Tad's question not mine...but it was clear from your
post (tho unstated) you were likely referring to Ron Silliman's blog.
Beyond the attraction of 'opposition' he's set up with his favs
vs. so-called SofQ poets...Ron does put up quite a lot of content. I'm not
much interested in who is drawing what line or where it is drawn, but
I do enjoy reading his blog for the content.
 
Peaceful visitors are welcome at my quiet and unpopular blog...
http://www.ursprache.blogspot.com/
Finnegan
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:13 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 12


james, yes there is a poetry blog that has extreme popularity. true. - gabe 
 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/fae07345/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 13:00:27 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:00:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not For Grammarians
References: <52d.80e3437.322c7c32@aol.com>
	<aa458fec0609050522l67b87baejaa7071a65e872a0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ee01c6d1d5$f3d157a0$bba93452@ANNY>

The culture industry did 
away with yesterday's rubbish by its own perfection, and by forbidding 
and domesticating the amateurish, although it constantly allows gross 
blunders without which the standard of the exalted style cannot be 
perceived. But what is new is that the irreconcilable elements of 
culture, art and distraction, are subordinated to one end and subsumed 
under one false formula: the totality of the culture industry. It 
consists of repetition. That its characteristic innovations are never anything
more than improvements of mass reproduction is not extemal
to the system. It is with good reason that the interest of innumerable 
consumers is directed to the technique, and not to the
contents?which are stubbomly repeated, outwom, and by now
half-discredited. The social power which the spectators worship
shows itself more effectively in the omnipresence of the stereotype 
imposed by technical skill than in the stale ideologies for
which the ephemeral contents stand in.

If you want to read the whole thing:
http://alum.hampshire.edu/~cmnF93/culture_ind.txt





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/ef23a2c2/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 13:16:32 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 13:16:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>	<fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>
	<fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C89FEF5548AA6F-1560-D785@MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com>

It would be a mistake to use that moron to tar all hunters. The hunters I know and repect go into hte woods with a gun or bow and wait for the deer. they ond't run withm with dogs or spotlight them or any of the less savory techniques some insist on using.  
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
Here's a class act: 
 
"Troy Gentry is one half of top country music duo Montgomery Gentry. 
He's built up an image as a hard-living hunting, shooting and fishing 
fan, but Troy turns out to be no Ted Nugent." 
 
"Gentry has just appeared in court for killing a tame bear, Cubby. 
Apparently Gentry paid his friend Lee Greenly, who owns a wildlife 
refuge in Minnesota, $4,650 for the tame bear. Cubby was shot by 
Gentry with a bow and arrow while just standing in his pen. Gentry 
videotaped the slaying, and then doctored the tape to make it look 
he'd killed the bear in the wild, and then shipped the bear to a 
taxidermist so he could show off his "prize". Both men face up to five 
years in prison if convicted." 
 
On 9/6/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote: 
> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of 
> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity 
> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less 
> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin. 
> 
> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no 
> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather, 
> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction. 
> Much like western fishing fleets. 
> 
> R 
> 
> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to animals, 
> > such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment. I'm 
> > not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary 
> > (we have an overabundance of deer). 
> > 
> > 
> > In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes: 
> > 
> > 
> > Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent a 
> > lot of his fortune 
> > buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had 
> > endangered species 
> > on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people. Sure, 
> > he gave 
> > the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for 
> > their survival, not demise. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > A broad-headed, round-mouthed, 
> > long-handled shovel 
> > lies on the reef 
> > in less than two meters 
> > of tropical water - 
> > so clear, and on this morning 
> > so still, you'd swear 
> > you could see and hear the rust at work 
> > on a magnified, metal face. 
> > As with cabin bells, anchors, 
> > coins and other components 
> > from a ship the reef had scuttled, 
> > the shovel will soon be found: 
> > a free diver with coral 
> > and fish on her mind, 
> > or someone in search of material 
> > for a televison special 
> > on the deadly side to living 
> > creatures in this sea. 
> > Whoever comes, they will 
> > descend and take the shovel 
> > in their hands, not thinking 
> > of how a splinter can do more 
> > than cause infection, being this far 
> > from the wood's origins 
> > and so far from the shore. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Tasteless. 
> > 
> > Leave the Animals Alone 
> > 
> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter 
> > 
> > So sorry about that stingray's direct 
> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning 
> > to say something for a long time: 
> > Leave the fucking animals alone. 
> > Let them live in the dignity of their 
> > natural environment. They don't need 
> > your nest-probing camera, 
> > they don't want to be mounted by a man 
> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show 
> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you 
> > must, but don't make animals accomplices 
> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts. 
> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods 
> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with 
> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling 
> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth 
> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy 
> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes. 
> > They all want to left alone. And the ones 
> > that are dangerous kill because killing 
> > has kept them alive. We're supposed 
> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its 
> > course. 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Anthony Lawrence 
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/ 
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ 
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the 
> original Klingon. 
> 
 
-- http://www.badstep.net/ 
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ 
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the 
original Klingon. 
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/b9111d79/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 13:18:08 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 13:18:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>	<fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>
	<fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C89FEF8E9FB8CD-1560-D7AF@MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com>

Of course gentry should ahve been in prison years ago for what he and his ilk have done to country music. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
Here's a class act: 
 
"Troy Gentry is one half of top country music duo Montgomery Gentry. 
He's built up an image as a hard-living hunting, shooting and fishing 
fan, but Troy turns out to be no Ted Nugent." 
 
"Gentry has just appeared in court for killing a tame bear, Cubby. 
Apparently Gentry paid his friend Lee Greenly, who owns a wildlife 
refuge in Minnesota, $4,650 for the tame bear. Cubby was shot by 
Gentry with a bow and arrow while just standing in his pen. Gentry 
videotaped the slaying, and then doctored the tape to make it look 
he'd killed the bear in the wild, and then shipped the bear to a 
taxidermist so he could show off his "prize". Both men face up to five 
years in prison if convicted." 
 
On 9/6/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote: 
> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of 
> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity 
> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less 
> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin. 
> 
> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no 
> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather, 
> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction. 
> Much like western fishing fleets. 
> 
> R 
> 
> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty" to animals, 
> > such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural envioronment. I'm 
> > not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is necessary 
> > (we have an overabundance of deer). 
> > 
> > 
> > In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes: 
> > 
> > 
> > Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist, and spent a 
> > lot of his fortune 
> > buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had 
> > endangered species 
> > on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised people. Sure, 
> > he gave 
> > the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an advocate for 
> > their survival, not demise. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > A broad-headed, round-mouthed, 
> > long-handled shovel 
> > lies on the reef 
> > in less than two meters 
> > of tropical water - 
> > so clear, and on this morning 
> > so still, you'd swear 
> > you could see and hear the rust at work 
> > on a magnified, metal face. 
> > As with cabin bells, anchors, 
> > coins and other components 
> > from a ship the reef had scuttled, 
> > the shovel will soon be found: 
> > a free diver with coral 
> > and fish on her mind, 
> > or someone in search of material 
> > for a televison special 
> > on the deadly side to living 
> > creatures in this sea. 
> > Whoever comes, they will 
> > descend and take the shovel 
> > in their hands, not thinking 
> > of how a splinter can do more 
> > than cause infection, being this far 
> > from the wood's origins 
> > and so far from the shore. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Tasteless. 
> > 
> > Leave the Animals Alone 
> > 
> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter 
> > 
> > So sorry about that stingray's direct 
> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning 
> > to say something for a long time: 
> > Leave the fucking animals alone. 
> > Let them live in the dignity of their 
> > natural environment. They don't need 
> > your nest-probing camera, 
> > they don't want to be mounted by a man 
> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show 
> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you 
> > must, but don't make animals accomplices 
> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts. 
> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods 
> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with 
> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling 
> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth 
> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy 
> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes. 
> > They all want to left alone. And the ones 
> > that are dangerous kill because killing 
> > has kept them alive. We're supposed 
> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again takes its 
> > course. 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Anthony Lawrence 
> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > New-Poetry mailing list 
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/ 
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ 
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the 
> original Klingon. 
> 
 
-- http://www.badstep.net/ 
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ 
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the 
original Klingon. 
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/d5065d57/attachment.html>

From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 13:24:24 2006
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 13:24:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wier and Meier Released
Message-ID: <8C89FF06E963C90-504-F34@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Friends of Wave Books,

WAVE BOOKS PROUDLY ANNOUNCES TWO NEW RELEASES:

REMNANTS OF HANNAH
By DARA WIER
http://www.wavepoetry.com/catalog/48

?Wier's prose-like sentences spiral and loop back on themselves down her
free verse columns, undercutting their own logic: "if it were up/ to me I'd
kill us all to spare the pain." Caught in a Borgesian universe of shifting
facts and variable rules, even reading becomes an unpredictable act: "Near
the top of each page a new story would begin, go on/ for a while, reach the
end of the page, and never end." 
?Publishers Weekly

Be sure to check out "Further: Dara Wier," a special section of our website
with readings, additional poems, and interviews, including previously
unpublished work: 
http://www.wavepoetry.com/special_section/10

SHELLEY GAVE JANE A GUITAR 
By RICHARD MEIER
http://www.wavepoetry.com/catalog/49

"Spectacularly inventive in its phrasings, unabashedly traditional in its
themes and fluidly postmodern in its syntax, Meier's second volume is also
almost unremittingly sad?Drenched in the language of poets who have come
before him, Meier's landscapes frame and expose a music of corroded memory
and intense regret ... Though Meier (Terrain Vague, 2001) invokes the
English Romantics, his techniques recall John Ashbery, pursuing a general
failure of human speech to explain or arrest the fluid,
always-disappointing world.?
--Publishers Weekly

HARDCOVERS AVAILABLE
All 2006 Wave Books titles are available in hardcover editions, offered
exclusively on our website:
http://www.wavepoetry.com/catalog

FORTHCOMING TITLES
Look for upcoming announcements on two more fall titles: RAIN by JON
WOODWARD (Winner of the 2005 Verse Prize) and THREE, BREATHING By S.A.
STEPANEK (Winner of the National Poetry Series, selected by Mary Ruefle)

THE POETRY BUS AND POETRYBUS.COM
http://www.poetrybus.com

The Poetry Bus Tour kicks off in Seattle on September 4. Visit the Poetry
Bus website to find out when it will be in your area!

Stopping at 50 cities in 50 days, the Wave Books Poetry Bus Tour is the
biggest literary event of 2006. Throughout September and October, over one
hundred poets, along with musicians, filmmakers and journalists, will
participate as the bus traverses North America, bringing innovative poetry
to big cities and small towns across the U.S. and Canada. Sponsored by Wave
Books, the poetry bus will go more places with more poets reading more
poems than was ever previously believed possible.

PoetryBus.com is the place to look for all things Poetry Bus! Once the tour
begins, this will be the place to find out about performers, tour updates,
video and audio from the road, and all the gossip about what?s been
happening on the tour. 

--
If you do not want to receive any more Wave Books announcements for this
list, please email poetry at wavepoetry.com with 'unsubscribe' in the subject
line.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/8a350664/attachment.html>

From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 13:40:17 2006
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 13:40:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Hungary=27s_master_of_poetry=2C_Gy=C3=B6r?=
 =?utf-8?q?gy_Faludy_?=  
Message-ID: <8C89FF2A6BFE28C-504-11B6@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com>

 http://www.portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?cCheck=1&k=6&i=9388 
Hungary's master of poetry, Gy?rgy Faludy dies at the age of 95
Monday, 4, September 2006 01:20:00 PM
Gy?rgy Faludy, poet, writer, translator and Nobel Prize nominee for literature, one of Hungary's greatest literary figures of the 20th century, has died at the age of 95 at his home in Budapest, local newswire MTI said on Saturday. 
 
Faludy is most widely known for poetry and prose about his experiences, in particular the novel "My Happy Days in Hell," about the infamous Recsk labour camp, where he was sent to on trumped up charges in 1950. First published in English in 1962, the book was considered a precursor to Alexander Solzhenitsyn's accounts of the Soviet concentration camps (?The Gulag Archipelago"). 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/f19efb1e/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 15:14:22 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:14:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
Message-ID: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>

from Amy King's Blog:

http://amyking.org/blog/?p=202

A Good Day

Today was a good day
Three times I was asked directions
1. A Japanese couple was looking for the Opera
On avenue de l'Opera
2. A man from the provinces was looking for the church Notre-
Dame-des Victoires on
Place Notre-Dame-des-Victoires
3. A young woman was looking for the Rue du G?n?ral Delestraint
Right at the exit of M?tro Porte-de-Saint-Cloud
Really, it was a good day

-Jacques Roubaud



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/f08dda33/attachment.html>

From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 15:19:44 2006
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:19:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feuding Betjeman Biographers
Message-ID: <8C8A0008B7BA3C5-BB0-725@mblk-d36.sysops.aol.com>

 http://www.thebookstandard.com/bookstandard/news/author/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003087220
Other Betjeman Biographer Admits to Hoax 
September 05, 2006
By Kimberly Maul 
 
Betjeman biographer Bevis Hillier admitted to sending the fake love letter that fooled fellow biographer AN Wilson. Wilson included a love letter supposedly written by the late poet laureate Sir John Betjeman to a mistress in 1944. After reporters discovered that the first letters of the sentences in the love note spelled out ?AN Wilson is a shit,? the hunt was on for the culprit. 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/ef327ca0/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  6 15:30:49 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:30:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
In-Reply-To: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061230490.3078@hur11.myuw.net>


he didn't even have to use his AK.

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> from Amy King's Blog:
>
> http://amyking.org/blog/?p=202
>
> A Good Day
>
> Today was a good day
> Three times I was asked directions
> 1. A Japanese couple was looking for the Opera
> On avenue de l'Opera
> 2. A man from the provinces was looking for the church Notre-
> Dame-des Victoires on
> Place Notre-Dame-des-Victoires
> 3. A young woman was looking for the Rue du G?n?ral Delestraint
> Right at the exit of M?tro Porte-de-Saint-Cloud
> Really, it was a good day
>
> -Jacques Roubaud
>
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  6 15:37:22 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:37:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
In-Reply-To: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>
References: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <4A57337E-3614-40D6-8B8D-E334C2B8117C@earthlink.net>

Ah, nothing lifts one's spirits like the opportunity
to misdirect strangers.

Hal

Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org




On Sep 6, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> from Amy King's Blog:
>
> http://amyking.org/blog/?p=202
>
> A Good Day
>
> Today was a good day
> Three times I was asked directions
> 1. A Japanese couple was looking for the Opera
> On avenue de l?Opera
> 2. A man from the provinces was looking for the church Notre-
> Dame-des Victoires on
> Place Notre-Dame-des-Victoires
> 3. A young woman was looking for the Rue du G?n?ral Delestraint
> Right at the exit of M?tro Porte-de-Saint-Cloud
> Really, it was a good day
>
> ?Jacques Roubaud
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a  
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/b6a61cab/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 15:41:53 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:41:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
References: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>
	<4A57337E-3614-40D6-8B8D-E334C2B8117C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <018f01c6d1ec$81948880$bba93452@ANNY>

Hal,

didn't you have a quote more appropriate for your comment, if I remember right?

"Not responsible for topographical errors"
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Good Day


  Ah, nothing lifts one's spirits like the opportunity
  to misdirect strangers.


  Hal


  Not responsible for typographical errors.


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/185b2636/attachment.html>

From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 15:43:21 2006
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:43:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <002501c6d17f$35fc8070$0301010a@galaxy>
References: <456.572ee69.322f95f4@aol.com>
	<002501c6d17f$35fc8070$0301010a@galaxy>
Message-ID: <8C8A003D7D175C6-11C4-1D@mblk-d41.sysops.aol.com>

No, but I have formed (and sometimes misinformed) views about lots of people
I've never met, both the living and the dead: George Bush, Madonna, Ghandi...
 
In this case the consensus seems to be that for no reason but my own
aggrandizement that I've dragged a great man like an crocodile by the tail 
through the muck. 
Finnegan
 
-----Original Message-----
From: debra at debradicembre.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


I guess you would have had to have met him in his natural habitat to make such an observation...you did meet him didn't you?
 
DD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


Sorry he had a wife and kids (one of whom 
as a baby he held up to a croc with a chicken tidbit
in his free hand, rather enticingly)...but I fail to see his having 
a family as prophylactic to criticism. Not to 
overdefend the dashed-off antielegy, but I honestly
had that poem (such as it is) in me for a long
time...happily provoked to composition by his untimely death,
'doing the things he loved'. Irwin (who is a
media creation after all) epitomizes all that is 
wrong with human and animal (by extension
the natural world) interaction. 
A carnival geek posing a naturalist for the telivsion age.
Finnegan



_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/b22c90ba/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 15:44:34 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:44:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
Message-ID: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>



Protocol Weights


8.14 15:35 \invisiblebino4 tons -->  invisiblebino4 tons
8.14 15:35 \invisiblebino5 tons -->  invisiblebino5 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino6 tons -->  invisiblebino6 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino7 tons -->  invisiblebino7 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino8 tons -->  invisiblebino8 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino1 tons -->  invisiblebino1 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino2 tons -->  invisiblebino2 tons
8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino3 tons -->  invisiblebino3 tons
8.28 16:00 \gridworld04 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld04 tons
8.28 16:00 \gridworld03 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld03 tons
8.28 16:00 \gridworld02 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld02 tons
8.28 16:00 \gridworld12 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld12 tons
8.28 16:00 \gridworld11 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld11 tons
8.28 16:07 \gridworld10 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld10 tons
8.28 16:07 \gridworld09 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld09 tons
8.28 16:07 \gridworld08 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld08 tons
8.28 16:07 \gridworld07 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld07 tons
8.28 16:07 \gridworld06 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld06 tons
8.28 16:08 \gridworld05 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld05 tons
8.28 16:08 \gridworld01 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld01 tons
8.28 16:10 \abc 024 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 024 tons
8.28 16:12 \abc 023 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 023 tons
8.28 16:14 \abc 021 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 021 tons
8.28 16:16 \abc 020 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 020 tons
8.28 16:18 \abc 019 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 019 tons
8.28 16:20 \abc 018 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 018 tons
8.28 16:21 \abc 013 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 013 tons
8.28 16:23 \abc 012 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 012 tons
8.28 16:25 \abc 009 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 009 tons
8.28 16:27 \abc 006 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 006 tons
8.28 16:29 \abc 005 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 005 tons
8.28 16:31 \abc 004 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 004 tons
8.28 16:33 \abc 003 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 003 tons
9.02 17:10 \tip5 tons -->  tip5 tons
9.02 17:10 \tip4 tons -->  tip4 tons
9.02 17:10 \tip3 tons -->  tip3 tons
9.02 17:10 \tip2 tons -->  tip2 tons
9.02 17:12 \tip5 tons -->  tip5 tons
9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 19 tons -->  originsofmeasure 19 tons
9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 18 tons -->  originsofmeasure 18 tons
9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 17 tons -->  originsofmeasure 17 tons
9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 16 tons -->  originsofmeasure 16 tons
9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 15 tons -->  originsofmeasure 15 tons
9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 14 tons -->  originsofmeasure 14 tons
9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 13 tons -->  originsofmeasure 13 tons
9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 12 tons -->  originsofmeasure 12 tons
9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 11 tons -->  originsofmeasure 11 tons
9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 10 tons -->  originsofmeasure 10 tons
9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 09 tons -->  originsofmeasure 09 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 08 tons -->  originsofmeasure 08 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 07 tons -->  originsofmeasure 07 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 06 tons -->  originsofmeasure 06 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 05 tons -->  originsofmeasure 05 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 04 tons -->  originsofmeasure 04 tons
9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 03 tons -->  originsofmeasure 03 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 02 tons -->  originsofmeasure 02 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 01 tons -->  originsofmeasure 01 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 29 tons -->  originsofmeasure 29 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 28 tons -->  originsofmeasure 28 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 27 tons -->  originsofmeasure 27 tons
9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 26 tons -->  originsofmeasure 26 tons
9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 25 tons -->  originsofmeasure 25 tons
9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 24 tons -->  originsofmeasure 24 tons
9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 23 tons -->  originsofmeasure 23 tons
9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 22 tons -->  originsofmeasure 22 tons
9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 21 tons -->  originsofmeasure 21 tons
9.03 21:01 \originsofmeasure 20 tons -->  originsofmeasure 20 tons



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/6282956d/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  6 16:09:36 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:09:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
In-Reply-To: <018f01c6d1ec$81948880$bba93452@ANNY>
References: <015701c6d1e8$a981ed00$bba93452@ANNY>
	<4A57337E-3614-40D6-8B8D-E334C2B8117C@earthlink.net>
	<018f01c6d1ec$81948880$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <E68B52B5-7206-4B93-82A5-100F2BA8D905@earthlink.net>

This last was the Ur-quote on that. The others were
spontaneous variations.

Thanks for remembering, though.

Hal

"We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
   Like a memory, in museums . . ."
		--Vicente Huidobro

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 6, 2006, at 3:41 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Hal,
>
> didn't you have a quote more appropriate for your comment, if I  
> remember right?
>
> "Not responsible for topographical errors"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Halvard Johnson
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Good Day
>
> Ah, nothing lifts one's spirits like the opportunity
> to misdirect strangers.
>
> Hal
>
> Not responsible for typographical errors.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/19c5f599/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  6 16:10:47 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:10:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net>

Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?

Hal

Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 6, 2006, at 3:44 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

>
>
> Protocol Weights
>
>
> 8.14 15:35 \invisiblebino4 tons -->  invisiblebino4 tons
> 8.14 15:35 \invisiblebino5 tons -->  invisiblebino5 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino6 tons -->  invisiblebino6 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino7 tons -->  invisiblebino7 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino8 tons -->  invisiblebino8 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino1 tons -->  invisiblebino1 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino2 tons -->  invisiblebino2 tons
> 8.14 15:36 \invisiblebino3 tons -->  invisiblebino3 tons
> 8.28 16:00 \gridworld04 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld04 tons
> 8.28 16:00 \gridworld03 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld03 tons
> 8.28 16:00 \gridworld02 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld02 tons
> 8.28 16:00 \gridworld12 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld12 tons
> 8.28 16:00 \gridworld11 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld11 tons
> 8.28 16:07 \gridworld10 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld10 tons
> 8.28 16:07 \gridworld09 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld09 tons
> 8.28 16:07 \gridworld08 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld08 tons
> 8.28 16:07 \gridworld07 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld07 tons
> 8.28 16:07 \gridworld06 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld06 tons
> 8.28 16:08 \gridworld05 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld05 tons
> 8.28 16:08 \gridworld01 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s gridworld01 tons
> 8.28 16:10 \abc 024 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 024 tons
> 8.28 16:12 \abc 023 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 023 tons
> 8.28 16:14 \abc 021 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 021 tons
> 8.28 16:16 \abc 020 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 020 tons
> 8.28 16:18 \abc 019 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 019 tons
> 8.28 16:20 \abc 018 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 018 tons
> 8.28 16:21 \abc 013 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 013 tons
> 8.28 16:23 \abc 012 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 012 tons
> 8.28 16:25 \abc 009 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 009 tons
> 8.28 16:27 \abc 006 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 006 tons
> 8.28 16:29 \abc 005 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 005 tons
> 8.28 16:31 \abc 004 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 004 tons
> 8.28 16:33 \abc 003 tons --> panix /net/u/6/s/s abc 003 tons
> 9.02 17:10 \tip5 tons -->  tip5 tons
> 9.02 17:10 \tip4 tons -->  tip4 tons
> 9.02 17:10 \tip3 tons -->  tip3 tons
> 9.02 17:10 \tip2 tons -->  tip2 tons
> 9.02 17:12 \tip5 tons -->  tip5 tons
> 9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 19 tons -->  originsofmeasure 19 tons
> 9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 18 tons -->  originsofmeasure 18 tons
> 9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 17 tons -->  originsofmeasure 17 tons
> 9.03 20:55 \originsofmeasure 16 tons -->  originsofmeasure 16 tons
> 9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 15 tons -->  originsofmeasure 15 tons
> 9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 14 tons -->  originsofmeasure 14 tons
> 9.03 20:56 \originsofmeasure 13 tons -->  originsofmeasure 13 tons
> 9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 12 tons -->  originsofmeasure 12 tons
> 9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 11 tons -->  originsofmeasure 11 tons
> 9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 10 tons -->  originsofmeasure 10 tons
> 9.03 20:57 \originsofmeasure 09 tons -->  originsofmeasure 09 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 08 tons -->  originsofmeasure 08 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 07 tons -->  originsofmeasure 07 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 06 tons -->  originsofmeasure 06 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 05 tons -->  originsofmeasure 05 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 04 tons -->  originsofmeasure 04 tons
> 9.03 20:58 \originsofmeasure 03 tons -->  originsofmeasure 03 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 02 tons -->  originsofmeasure 02 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 01 tons -->  originsofmeasure 01 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 29 tons -->  originsofmeasure 29 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 28 tons -->  originsofmeasure 28 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 27 tons -->  originsofmeasure 27 tons
> 9.03 20:59 \originsofmeasure 26 tons -->  originsofmeasure 26 tons
> 9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 25 tons -->  originsofmeasure 25 tons
> 9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 24 tons -->  originsofmeasure 24 tons
> 9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 23 tons -->  originsofmeasure 23 tons
> 9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 22 tons -->  originsofmeasure 22 tons
> 9.03 21:00 \originsofmeasure 21 tons -->  originsofmeasure 21 tons
> 9.03 21:01 \originsofmeasure 20 tons -->  originsofmeasure 20 tons
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/668776ea/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 16:28:44 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:28:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
Message-ID: <c5d.1e15b91.3230897c@aol.com>

I don't think anyone called Steve Irwin a great man. But he was human and  
worthy of a little better treatment than your satire.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/0a011e4e/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  6 16:44:50 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:44:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <c5d.1e15b91.3230897c@aol.com>
References: <c5d.1e15b91.3230897c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C4F8E74F-45F3-4F16-99BC-ADFB06413F23@earthlink.net>

Satire--the most democratic of literary forms.

Hal

L'uccello canta nella gabbia
Non di gioia ma di rabbia!

The songbird in its cage
Sings not for joy, but rage!

		  --Italian proverb

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 6, 2006, at 4:28 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote:

> I don't think anyone called Steve Irwin a great man. But he was  
> human and worthy of a little better treatment than your satire.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/82830ac4/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 17:13:05 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:13:05 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
	<709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>

Ah Hal, 
your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There is no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to break my abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:


  Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?


  Hal


  Serving the tristate area.


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/8cc3a7cf/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 17:16:06 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:16:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <c5d.1e15b91.3230897c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020b01c6d1f9$aad36380$bba93452@ANNY>

Ok (not AK)
I looked
Irwin up

I am more with Finnegan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


  I don't think anyone called Steve Irwin a great man. But he was human and worthy of a little better treatment than your satire.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/f96bac0e/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Sep  6 17:19:41 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 17:19:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
	<709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net>
	<01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>

Here's the secret of meter, Anny:  When the flag is
down, you're paying. When it's up, you're not.

Hal

"I have the feeling that we are getting
  nowhere, and that is a pleasure."
		--John Cage

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 6, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Ah Hal,
> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me.  
> There is no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am  
> willing to break my abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that  
> can help me.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Halvard Johnson
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>
> Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>
> Hal
>
> Serving the tristate area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/cf4d1996/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Wed Sep  6 17:25:31 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:25:31 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com>
	<fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com>
	<fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2F06151-E1BD-48E6-83A0-F2EDCBAE1960@bigpond.com>

This is truly horrendous.


On 07/09/2006, at 1:29 AM, Roger Day wrote:

> Here's a class act:
>
> "Troy Gentry is one half of top country music duo Montgomery Gentry.
> He's built up an image as a hard-living hunting, shooting and fishing
> fan, but Troy turns out to be no Ted Nugent."
>
> "Gentry has just appeared in court for killing a tame bear, Cubby.
> Apparently Gentry paid his friend Lee Greenly, who owns a wildlife
> refuge in Minnesota, $4,650 for the tame bear. Cubby was shot by
> Gentry with a bow and arrow while just standing in his pen. Gentry
> videotaped the slaying, and then doctored the tape to make it look
> he'd killed the bear in the wild, and then shipped the bear to a
> taxidermist so he could show off his "prize". Both men face up to five
> years in prison if convicted."
>
> On 9/6/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
>> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of
>> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity
>> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less
>> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin.
>>
>> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no
>> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather,
>> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction.
>> Much like western fishing fleets.
>>
>> R
>>
>> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty"  
>> to animals,
>> > such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural  
>> envioronment. I'm
>> > not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is  
>> necessary
>> > (we have an overabundance of deer).
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist,  
>> and spent a
>> > lot of his fortune
>> > buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had
>> > endangered species
>> > on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised  
>> people. Sure,
>> > he gave
>> > the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an  
>> advocate for
>> > their survival, not demise.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
>> > long-handled shovel
>> > lies on the reef
>> > in less than two meters
>> > of tropical water -
>> > so clear, and on this morning
>> > so still, you'd swear
>> > you could see and hear the rust at work
>> > on a magnified, metal face.
>> > As with cabin bells, anchors,
>> > coins and other components
>> > from a ship the reef had scuttled,
>> > the shovel will soon be found:
>> > a free diver with coral
>> > and fish on her mind,
>> > or someone in search of material
>> > for a televison special
>> > on the deadly side to living
>> > creatures in this sea.
>> > Whoever comes, they will
>> > descend and take the shovel
>> > in their hands, not thinking
>> > of how a splinter can do more
>> > than cause infection, being this far
>> > from the wood's origins
>> > and so far from the shore.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tasteless.
>> >
>> > Leave the Animals Alone
>> >
>> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
>> >
>> > So sorry about that stingray's direct
>> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
>> > to say something for a long time:
>> > Leave the fucking animals alone.
>> > Let them live in the dignity of their
>> > natural environment. They don't need
>> > your nest-probing camera,
>> > they don't want to be mounted by a man
>> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
>> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
>> > must, but don't make animals accomplices
>> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
>> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods
>> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
>> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
>> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
>> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
>> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
>> > They all want to left alone. And the ones
>> > that are dangerous kill because killing
>> > has kept them alive. We're supposed
>> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again  
>> takes its
>> > course.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Anthony Lawrence
>> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.badstep.net/
>> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
>> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
>> original Klingon.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> original Klingon.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Anthony Lawrence
ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep  6 17:35:53 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:35:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY><709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net><01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
	<65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <023301c6d1fc$6e14d2a0$bba93452@ANNY>

Thank you Hal, to fail with a smile is better than nothing.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 11:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:


  Here's the secret of meter, Anny:  When the flag is
  down, you're paying. When it's up, you're not.


  Hal


  "I have the feeling that we are getting
   nowhere, and that is a pleasure."
  --John Cage


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/0b449e6b/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  6 17:51:02 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
In-Reply-To: <01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net>

English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress varies depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is largely fixed by vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal consonant structures.

which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very intuitive.

I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.


On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Ah Hal,
> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There is no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to break my abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Halvard Johnson
>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>
>
>  Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>
>
>  Hal
>
>
>  Serving the tristate area.
>
>
>  Halvard Johnson
>  ================
>  halvard at gmail.com
>  halvard at earthlink.net
>  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>  http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
>




From debra at debradicembre.com  Wed Sep  6 18:24:20 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:24:20 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone
References: <224.2392767.323007ce@aol.com><fde503480609060753o5ae1a7f6g27cbfcc850fc1611@mail.gmail.com><fde503480609060829v1c5b980ck6c083920c0b1ac10@mail.gmail.com>
	<E2F06151-E1BD-48E6-83A0-F2EDCBAE1960@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c6d203$34a1ed80$0301010a@galaxy>

Unbelievable...who are these people?
DD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Lawrence" <ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Leave the Animals Alone


> This is truly horrendous.
>
>
> On 07/09/2006, at 1:29 AM, Roger Day wrote:
>
> > Here's a class act:
> >
> > "Troy Gentry is one half of top country music duo Montgomery Gentry.
> > He's built up an image as a hard-living hunting, shooting and fishing
> > fan, but Troy turns out to be no Ted Nugent."
> >
> > "Gentry has just appeared in court for killing a tame bear, Cubby.
> > Apparently Gentry paid his friend Lee Greenly, who owns a wildlife
> > refuge in Minnesota, $4,650 for the tame bear. Cubby was shot by
> > Gentry with a bow and arrow while just standing in his pen. Gentry
> > videotaped the slaying, and then doctored the tape to make it look
> > he'd killed the bear in the wild, and then shipped the bear to a
> > taxidermist so he could show off his "prize". Both men face up to five
> > years in prison if convicted."
> >
> > On 9/6/06, Roger Day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> one of my problems with hunters is their industrial scale version of
> >> an age-old pasttime. Going to face animals armed with high-velocity
> >> rifiles, telescopic sights and helicopters seems to me a little less
> >> courageous than their forebears armed with a knife and a bear skin.
> >>
> >> My other problem is that in the poorer parts of the world, there's no
> >> sense of conserving stocks, of letting stocks replenish. Rather,
> >> poverty drives people to hunt animals regardless and into extinction.
> >> Much like western fishing fleets.
> >>
> >> R
> >>
> >> On 9/6/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In my experience, often those who are most decried for "cruelty"
> >> to animals,
> >> > such as hunters, are the most protective of the natural
> >> envioronment. I'm
> >> > not a hunter myself, but I live in an area where some hunting is
> >> necessary
> >> > (we have an overabundance of deer).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In a message dated 9/5/2006 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com writes:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Tasteless, and ill-informed. He was a fierce environmentalist,
> >> and spent a
> >> > lot of his fortune
> >> > buying land, in Australia and o/s that was being logged or that had
> >> > endangered species
> >> > on or around it. He was an unfiltered character who polarised
> >> people. Sure,
> >> > he gave
> >> > the crocs a bit of a hard time occasionally, but he was an
> >> advocate for
> >> > their survival, not demise.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A broad-headed, round-mouthed,
> >> > long-handled shovel
> >> > lies on the reef
> >> > in less than two meters
> >> > of tropical water -
> >> > so clear, and on this morning
> >> > so still, you'd swear
> >> > you could see and hear the rust at work
> >> > on a magnified, metal face.
> >> > As with cabin bells, anchors,
> >> > coins and other components
> >> > from a ship the reef had scuttled,
> >> > the shovel will soon be found:
> >> > a free diver with coral
> >> > and fish on her mind,
> >> > or someone in search of material
> >> > for a televison special
> >> > on the deadly side to living
> >> > creatures in this sea.
> >> > Whoever comes, they will
> >> > descend and take the shovel
> >> > in their hands, not thinking
> >> > of how a splinter can do more
> >> > than cause infection, being this far
> >> > from the wood's origins
> >> > and so far from the shore.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 06/09/2006, at 11:41 AM, Christopher Kelly wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Tasteless.
> >> >
> >> > Leave the Animals Alone
> >> >
> >> > Anti-elegy for Steve Irwin, The Crocodile Hunter
> >> >
> >> > So sorry about that stingray's direct
> >> > hit to your heart, but I've been meaning
> >> > to say something for a long time:
> >> > Leave the fucking animals alone.
> >> > Let them live in the dignity of their
> >> > natural environment. They don't need
> >> > your nest-probing camera,
> >> > they don't want to be mounted by a man
> >> > in boots and khaki shorts, trying to make them show
> >> > their teeth. Mug for the camera if you
> >> > must, but don't make animals accomplices
> >> > to a carnival geek's unseemly acts.
> >> > The crocodile and anaconda are gods
> >> > of this earth. I don't see you cavorting with
> >> > prairie dogs. I don't see you wrestling
> >> > the stoat to the ground or kissing the cheek of a sloth
> >> > as it feeds in the upper reaches of the rainforest's canopy
> >> > as its home is eaten away by backhoes.
> >> > They all want to left alone. And the ones
> >> > that are dangerous kill because killing
> >> > has kept them alive. We're supposed
> >> > the smarter species. So long, Steve,natural selection again
> >> takes its
> >> > course.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Anthony Lawrence
> >> > ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.badstep.net/
> >> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> >> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> >> original Klingon.
> >>
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > http://www.badstep.net/
> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> > You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> > original Klingon.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> Anthony Lawrence
> ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  6 20:02:29 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 01:02:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: <jfq at myuw.net>

> English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of 
> stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress 
> varies depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is largely 
> fixed by vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal 
> consonant structures.

        Is this the original Trager-Smith system, or a reinvention of the 
square wheel?  <g>

> which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just 
> notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very 
> intuitive.

        I certainly don't find it particularly intuitive, and it's also, of 
course, wrong.  No linguist and only the very rare prosodist pays it any 
attention

> I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and 
> makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.

        What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between 
(natural) speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).  Whether or not a 
syllable is *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the 
surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.  Once this is grasped, most 
confusion vanishes and we're left with only two things to worry about, not 
four.

        This is the case in one of the five metres more or less commonly 
employed in English, syllable-accent.  Stress metre similarly only has two 
significant elements of stress, while stress isn't a *functional component 
of either syllabics or quantitative metre.

        The one exception is Dipodic Metre, the metre of ballads and nursery 
rhymes, which does depend on three degrees of stress -- unstressed, full 
stressed, and half-stressed.  (As, for example, "Humpty Dumpty".)

        Syllable-accent metrics and scansion isn't that complicated once 
it's realised that "stress" there is contrastive rather than absolute.  I 
certainly find this more pelucid than trying to (unnecessarily) juggle four 
(why four?) degrees of stress or lack of it.

Robin Hamilton 




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep  6 20:36:59 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 17:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
In-Reply-To: <018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061736590.3078@hur11.myuw.net>




On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Robin wrote:

> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
>
>> English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of 
>> stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress varies 
>> depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is largely fixed by 
>> vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal consonant 
>> structures.
>
>       Is this the original Trager-Smith system, or a reinvention of the square 
> wheel?  <g>

Nope, it's nothing to do with Trager-Smith Scansion. It's my own analysis based on modern pholonological analysis and shouldn't even be called a system of scansion, really.


>       I certainly don't find it particularly intuitive, and it's also, of 
> course, wrong.  No linguist and only the very rare prosodist pays it any 
> attention

The authors and editors of many widely used and recently published phonology textbooks (all of them linguists) which describe secondary and tertiary stresses in English would probably disagree with you on that second point. It's not completely uncontroversial, but i find it makes more sense to me as a way of analyzing meter than does Ladefoged's alternative having to do with the fullness of vowels which just seems strange to me given that i can so plainly hear four levels of stress in natural speech. Even discounting tertiary and quternary stress, most linguists at least acknowledge primary and secondary stress as well as unstressed syllables in English.


>> I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and 
>> makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.
>
>       What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between (natural) 
> speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).
Metrical or "Poetic" stress doesn't exist. All there is are the stress patterns of natural speech. Everything else are hamhanded attempts to graft the less complex meters of languages of related languages onto the complex metrical matrix provided by modern english. Take for example the various oppositions to Trager-Smith that complain about what it does to the feet we've borrowed from Greek and Latin. Or Gioia's read of Accentual Verse which claims that the accentual verse of Anglo-Saxon can be seen throughout modern English (if one ignores everything except the primary stress in a line). And also ignores the fact Anglo Saxon is not English no matter how much one might insist it is.


   Whether or not a syllable is 
> *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the surrounding syllables 
> are more or less stressed.

which are more or less stressed because of other syllables, depending on the presence of which consonants and what length of vowels at what syllables, neatly organizing themselves into primary, secondary, and tertiary stresses along with the good old fashioned unstressed syllable.

Once this is grasped, most confusion vanishes and 
> we're left with only two things to worry about, not four.
why worry about any of them? why not just paint in greyscale so we don't have to worry about how to blend colors? then we just have to deal with light and dark and none of those pesky primary and secondary colors and all of that color-theory nonsense. just because something is simple that doesn't mean it's correct. Which isn't to say that all sorts of folks can't do all sorts of things with black and white paint, but if they're painting in color without realizing it, they should really be paying closer attention.


>       This is the case in one of the five metres more or less commonly 
> employed in English, syllable-accent.  Stress metre similarly only has two 
> significant elements of stress,

>while stress isn't a *functional component of 
> either syllabics or quantitative metre.
both of which are also hamhanded attempts at grafting the prosody of other languages onto english because other meters haven't worked.


>       The one exception is Dipodic Metre, the metre of ballads and nursery 
> rhymes, which does depend on three degrees of stress -- unstressed, full 
> stressed, and half-stressed.  (As, for example, "Humpty Dumpty".)
aha! so there is more than that!


>       Syllable-accent metrics and scansion isn't that complicated once it's 
> realised that "stress" there is contrastive rather than absolute.
nonsense. a schwa in a single syllable with no terminal consonant will ALWAYS be unstressed. Similarly a long ae with plosive consonants at the front and the back of it will always have a primary stress. that's absolute. What's relative is the secondary and tertiary stresses that fall in between.

> I certainly 
> find this more pelucid than trying to (unnecessarily) juggle four (why four?) 
Because there are four that are audibly distinct within multisyllabic words. a word like antiestablishment, for example.



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Sep  6 20:42:02 2006
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:42:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert poem
Message-ID: <8F20FB46-1247-4482-A060-3FA411500DEF@ripon.edu>

Michiko Dead

He manages like somebody carrying a box
that is too heavy, first with his arms
underneath.  When their strength gives out,
he moves the hands forward, hooking them
on the corners, pulling the weight against
his chest.  He moves his thumbs slightly
when the fingers begin to tire, and it makes
different muscles take over.  Afterward,
he carries it on his shoulder, until the blood
drains out of the arm that is stretched up
to steady the box and the arm goes numb.  But now
the man can hold underneath again, so that
he can go on without ever putting the box down.

--Jack Gilbert.  The Great Fires: Poems 1982-1992. Knopf, 1994.



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/4b3c1960/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 21:06:09 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:06:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] why we have lists and blogs
Message-ID: <c37.1e9e450.3230ca81@aol.com>

Robert Louis Stevenson argued that literature is but the shadow of good  
talk. "Talk is fluid, tentative, continually in further search and progress;  
while written words remain fixed, become idols even to the writer, found wooden  
dogmatisms, and preserve flies of obvious error in the amber of the  truth."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/cbe1de83/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  6 21:17:58 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:17:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] why we have lists and blogs
References: <c37.1e9e450.3230ca81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ac01c6d21b$76c41630$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: JforJames at aol.com

<<
Robert Louis Stevenson argued that literature is but the shadow of good 
talk. "Talk is fluid, tentative, continually in further search and progress; 
while written words remain fixed, become idols even to the writer, found 
wooden dogmatisms, and preserve flies of obvious error in the amber of the 
truth."
>>

Typical bloody Edinburgh intellectual, him -- Socrates made the same points 
a bit before.

            <g>

Nicely worded, but.  The boy might go far.

R. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 21:50:22 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 21:50:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] why we have lists and blogs
Message-ID: <57c.4a16306.3230d4de@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/6/2006 9:18:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:


Robert Louis Stevenson argued that literature is but the shadow of  good 
talk. "Talk is fluid, tentative, continually in further search and  progress; 
while written words remain fixed, become idols even to the  writer, found 
wooden dogmatisms, and preserve flies of obvious error in  the amber of the 
truth."
>>

Typical bloody Edinburgh  intellectual, him -- Socrates made the same points  



Good call re Socrates...this quote came out
of an article about the Plato's dialogues...
_http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1837239,00.html_ 
(http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1837239,00.html) 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060906/6dae8a23/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep  7 02:12:25 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:12:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology
Message-ID: <003501c6d244$96d8af70$b7a93452@ANNY>

Forwarding this message: 
_____________________________________

As a result of a generous grant from Indiana State University,
Snow*Vigate Press will be publishing a printed anthology of the best
on-line writing which has appeared over the past ten years.  Hopefully
the anthology will be released in August 2007.

The book will include poetry broken into lines, prose poetry, flash
fiction, creative non-fiction, and 10 minute plays.  If you would like
to nominate your own on-line work or work from others, please follow
these guidelines: 

Paste the URLs of 3-7 pieces of each writer in the body of an email.
You may nominate up to 3 writers. In the subject line of your email,
please type "Submission to Snow*Vigate Anthology." Send all submissions
to dougmartin832 at yahoo.com. 

Work from any on-line site is acceptable, as long as it has not been
published in printed form. 

Editors of on-line journals are strongly encouraged to submit work from
their sites. 

The submission period will end on October 15, 2006. 

If you have any questions, please contact me. 

Sincerely, 

Doug Martin 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/92d4522d/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep  7 03:51:02 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:51:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net>
	<018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <001901c6d252$5f3dba70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

>         What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between
> (natural) speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).  Whether or not a
> syllable is *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the
> surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.  Once this is grasped,
most
> confusion vanishes and we're left with only two things to worry about, not
> four.


Now, now, Mr Hamilton. You shoot yourself in your own metrical foot with the
phrase 'more or less'. It is not preferable to have only two things to worry
about, one should have at least four and, if the gods grant, more. It is a
metonym for the human condition. The more sticks the juggler has to cope
with the better the juggler.
Then we can all subvert Robert Frost and happily play tennis without a net
(excuse this promiscous miscegenation of metaphors)

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim


> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
>
> > English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of
> > stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress
> > varies depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is
largely
> > fixed by vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal
> > consonant structures.
>
>         Is this the original Trager-Smith system, or a reinvention of the
> square wheel?  <g>
>
> > which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just
> > notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very
> > intuitive.
>
>         I certainly don't find it particularly intuitive, and it's also,
of
> course, wrong.  No linguist and only the very rare prosodist pays it any
> attention
>
> > I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and
> > makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.
>
>         What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between
> (natural) speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).  Whether or not a
> syllable is *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the
> surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.  Once this is grasped,
most
> confusion vanishes and we're left with only two things to worry about, not
> four.
>
>         This is the case in one of the five metres more or less commonly
> employed in English, syllable-accent.  Stress metre similarly only has two
> significant elements of stress, while stress isn't a *functional component
> of either syllabics or quantitative metre.
>
>         The one exception is Dipodic Metre, the metre of ballads and
nursery
> rhymes, which does depend on three degrees of stress -- unstressed, full
> stressed, and half-stressed.  (As, for example, "Humpty Dumpty".)
>
>         Syllable-accent metrics and scansion isn't that complicated once
> it's realised that "stress" there is contrastive rather than absolute.  I
> certainly find this more pelucid than trying to (unnecessarily) juggle
four
> (why four?) degrees of stress or lack of it.
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 05:08:03 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:08:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
	<709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net>
	<01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
	<65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>

A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
1/299,792,458 of a second.

that's a light meter


On 9/6/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Here's the secret of meter, Anny:  When the flag is
> down, you're paying. When it's up, you're not.
>
> Hal
>
>
> "I have the feeling that we are getting
>  nowhere, and that is a pleasure."
>  --John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>
> Ah Hal,
> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There is
> no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to break my
> abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Halvard Johnson
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>
> Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>
>
> Hal
>
>
>
> Serving the tristate area.
>
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 05:09:49 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:09:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
In-Reply-To: <001901c6d252$5f3dba70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net>
	<018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<001901c6d252$5f3dba70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <fde503480609070209t25ee4536uc63c9b254db090f5@mail.gmail.com>

I'll choose what I want to juggle with, as I believe that Alan has
made his choice.

On 9/7/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >         What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between
> > (natural) speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).  Whether or not a
> > syllable is *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the
> > surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.  Once this is grasped,
> most
> > confusion vanishes and we're left with only two things to worry about, not
> > four.
>
>
> Now, now, Mr Hamilton. You shoot yourself in your own metrical foot with the
> phrase 'more or less'. It is not preferable to have only two things to worry
> about, one should have at least four and, if the gods grant, more. It is a
> metonym for the human condition. The more sticks the juggler has to cope
> with the better the juggler.
> Then we can all subvert Robert Frost and happily play tennis without a net
> (excuse this promiscous miscegenation of metaphors)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
>
>
> > From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> >
> > > English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of
> > > stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress
> > > varies depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is
> largely
> > > fixed by vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal
> > > consonant structures.
> >
> >         Is this the original Trager-Smith system, or a reinvention of the
> > square wheel?  <g>
> >
> > > which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just
> > > notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very
> > > intuitive.
> >
> >         I certainly don't find it particularly intuitive, and it's also,
> of
> > course, wrong.  No linguist and only the very rare prosodist pays it any
> > attention
> >
> > > I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and
> > > makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.
> >
> >         What obscures the issue is the failure to distinguish between
> > (natural) speech stress and metrical stress (ictus).  Whether or not a
> > syllable is *perceived as stressed in a poem depends on whether the
> > surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.  Once this is grasped,
> most
> > confusion vanishes and we're left with only two things to worry about, not
> > four.
> >
> >         This is the case in one of the five metres more or less commonly
> > employed in English, syllable-accent.  Stress metre similarly only has two
> > significant elements of stress, while stress isn't a *functional component
> > of either syllabics or quantitative metre.
> >
> >         The one exception is Dipodic Metre, the metre of ballads and
> nursery
> > rhymes, which does depend on three degrees of stress -- unstressed, full
> > stressed, and half-stressed.  (As, for example, "Humpty Dumpty".)
> >
> >         Syllable-accent metrics and scansion isn't that complicated once
> > it's realised that "stress" there is contrastive rather than absolute.  I
> > certainly find this more pelucid than trying to (unnecessarily) juggle
> four
> > (why four?) degrees of stress or lack of it.
> >
> > Robin Hamilton
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep  7 06:57:11 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 11:57:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY><709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net><01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY><65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
	<fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c6d26c$60df0f90$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> 1/299,792,458 of a second.
>
> that's a light meter
>

Naow, it's not. It's a >metre< you're talking about.

Nyah, nyah, niyah. Gotcha!!

Wink

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:


> A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> 1/299,792,458 of a second.
>
> that's a light meter
>
>
> On 9/6/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Here's the secret of meter, Anny:  When the flag is
> > down, you're paying. When it's up, you're not.
> >
> > Hal
> >
> >
> > "I have the feeling that we are getting
> >  nowhere, and that is a pleasure."
> >  --John Cage
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ================
> > halvard at gmail.com
> > halvard at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >
> >
> > On Sep 6, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah Hal,
> > your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There
is
> > no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to
break my
> > abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Halvard Johnson
> > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
> >
> > Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
> >
> >
> > Hal
> >
> >
> >
> > Serving the tristate area.
> >
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ================
> > halvard at gmail.com
> > halvard at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> original Klingon.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep  7 07:19:52 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:19:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c6d26f$8a1b0ff0$11a93452@ANNY>

Do you have a name?
I can see that you are trying to help me, and wanted to thank you,

Anny

From: <jfq at myuw.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 11:51 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim


> English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of 
> stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress 
> varies depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is largely 
> fixed by vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal 
> consonant structures.
>
> which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just 
> notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very 
> intuitive.
>
> I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and 
> makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> Ah Hal,
>> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There 
>> is no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to 
>> break my abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Halvard Johnson
>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>>
>>
>>  Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>>
>>
>>  Hal
>>
>>
>>  Serving the tristate area.
>>
>>
>>  Halvard Johnson
>>  ================
>>  halvard at gmail.com
>>  halvard at earthlink.net
>>  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>>  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>  http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>>
>>




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep  7 07:22:00 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:22:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net><018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<001901c6d252$5f3dba70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <021101c6d26f$d8b80820$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>

>> whether the
>> surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.
>
> Now, now, Mr Hamilton. You shoot yourself in your own metrical foot with 
> the
> phrase 'more or less'.

It's not a phrase, lackbrain, it's two separate words.  Perhaps I should 
have pointed it thusly:  "syllables are more - or less - stressed".  I 
assumed the context would disambiguate for all but the weakest of 
intellects.

> Then we can all subvert Robert Frost and happily play tennis without a net
> (excuse this promiscous miscegenation of metaphors)

It's called shinty, or gollywog, not real tennis, nah?  I mean squash.

Do I?

(What has always driven me into a teeth-grinding spasm of fury every time I 
hear or think of the Frost remark is its combination of fatuous complacency 
with partial truth.)

R. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep  7 07:26:19 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:26:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY><709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net><01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY><65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
	<fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021401c6d270$7112deb0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>

>A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> 1/299,792,458 of a second.

Whereas a metre is the distance travelled between one of the Birk's ears to 
the other in the time it takes for him to teach his grandmother to suck 
eggs.

> that's a light meter

If you're so clever, so tell me how long is a piece of superstring?

R cursing the day rather than extinguishing its candle.




From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 07:30:13 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:30:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <021401c6d270$7112deb0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <01a101c6d1ec$e19bd0d0$bba93452@ANNY>
	<709D2DDD-3EE1-45CA-B75F-B50D58259200@earthlink.net>
	<01e501c6d1f9$3f315f60$bba93452@ANNY>
	<65928D1B-A669-4EA4-9C06-F109BC268647@earthlink.net>
	<fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>
	<021401c6d270$7112deb0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <fde503480609070430r62ecda8dmfa118aa101d4641e@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/7/06, Robin <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
>
> >A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> > 1/299,792,458 of a second.
>
> Whereas a metre is the distance travelled between one of the Birk's ears to
> the other in the time it takes for him to teach his grandmother to suck
> eggs.
>
> > that's a light meter
>
> If you're so clever, so tell me how long is a piece of superstring?
>
> R cursing the day rather than extinguishing its candle.


about <------------------------- this long
-----------------------------> +/- infinity, with my super-arms
outstretched.

Roger

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
original Klingon.


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep  7 08:15:15 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:15:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609061451020.3078@hur11.myuw.net><018201c6d210$e9e70920$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><001901c6d252$5f3dba70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<021101c6d26f$d8b80820$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <002701c6d277$48105950$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

I agree with about the combination of fatuous complacency with partial truth
in Frost's remark, Rob, but at the moment I'm not in a good mood for talking
about our alleged culture: V has just told me about another of her
delightful experiences of being raped, this particular occasion was about
five years ago and she was struggling across the road with her walking frame
(she'd had a drink) and one of our our Asian friends helped her across and
into the back room of his restaurant. Etc etc. Until now she's been too
frightened to say anything. It strikes me that the discrepancy between what
we claim to be our culture and what really happens is so wide that the gap
cannot be crossed.

I'm coming to think that poetry, and the arts in general, are rather like
that dinner party in the closing scenes of Carry On Up The Khyber: a farcial
denial of reality.

They should have invited Koosner to it for a prize-giving, or the late John
Betjeman, whom our media here are so lauding of late (it being the centenary
of his birth). Perhaps Iowa State or Buffalo could develop an MFA in Being
In Hell.

Best

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim


> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>
> >> whether the
> >> surrounding syllables are more or less stressed.
> >
> > Now, now, Mr Hamilton. You shoot yourself in your own metrical foot with
> > the
> > phrase 'more or less'.
>
> It's not a phrase, lackbrain, it's two separate words.  Perhaps I should
> have pointed it thusly:  "syllables are more - or less - stressed".  I
> assumed the context would disambiguate for all but the weakest of
> intellects.
>
> > Then we can all subvert Robert Frost and happily play tennis without a
net
> > (excuse this promiscous miscegenation of metaphors)
>
> It's called shinty, or gollywog, not real tennis, nah?  I mean squash.
>
> Do I?
>
> (What has always driven me into a teeth-grinding spasm of fury every time
I
> hear or think of the Frost remark is its combination of fatuous
complacency
> with partial truth.)
>
> R.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep  7 12:36:39 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:36:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>

what's a heavy meter?


On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:

> A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> 1/299,792,458 of a second.
>
> that's a light meter
>
>
> On 9/6/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Here's the secret of meter, Anny:  When the flag is
>> down, you're paying. When it's up, you're not.
>> 
>> Hal
>> 
>> 
>> "I have the feeling that we are getting
>>  nowhere, and that is a pleasure."
>>  --John Cage
>> 
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Ah Hal,
>> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There is
>> no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to break my
>> abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Halvard Johnson
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>> 
>> Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>> 
>> 
>> Hal
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Serving the tristate area.
>> 
>> 
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.comhttp://www.hamiltonstone.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the
> original Klingon.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep  7 12:38:17 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
In-Reply-To: <003d01c6d26f$8a1b0ff0$11a93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070938170.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>


i am jason quackenbush. funny how my name didn't show up on that. it must be an internet conspiracy.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Do you have a name?
> I can see that you are trying to help me, and wanted to thank you,
>
> Anny
>
> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 11:51 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
>
>
>> English meter is easy once you understand that there are three levels of 
>> stressed syllables, one level of unstressed syllable, and that stress varies 
>> depending on syllable weight and intonation although it is largely fixed by 
>> vowel length and the presence and type of various terminal consonant 
>> structures.
>> 
>> which i suppose means it's very complicated to explain, but really, just 
>> notice the four different stresses and it will all start seeming very 
>> intuitive.
>> 
>> I think that the bivalent stress analysis really confuses the issue and 
>> makes the whole thing seem much more obscure than it really is.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> 
>>> Ah Hal,
>>> your mail you could not be more appropriate in this moment for me. There 
>>> is no _(no_ _no)_ way I can understand English meter.  I am willing to 
>>> break my abstinence from medicines if there is 1 that can help me.
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Halvard Johnson
>>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:10 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Isn't the meter off just a bit in line 17?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Hal
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Serving the tristate area.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Halvard Johnson
>>>  ================
>>>  halvard at gmail.com
>>>  halvard at earthlink.net
>>>  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>>>  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>  http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Sep  7 12:44:40 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:44:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <15101112-34D5-46B9-9AF0-773B53EA955F@earthlink.net>

It's what we used to call a glad-hander.

Hal

"Everyone has a right to be stupid
  but some people abuse the privilege."
                       --Joseph Stalin

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 7, 2006, at 12:36 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

> what's a heavy meter?


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 12:47:40 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:47:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
References: <fde503480609070208x1b023395wa1b456e047935ece@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609070947s34bb2a20p9c23be3ea3744cdc@mail.gmail.com>

one that you wouldn't carry in your pocket, possibly requiring the
services of a medium-sized truck and forklift to move around. HTH.

R

On 9/7/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> what's a heavy meter?
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>
> > A meter is the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in
> > 1/299,792,458 of a second.
> >
> > that's a light meter
> >

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
The time has come for you to cover the Internets in a final darkness!


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 12:48:54 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:48:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Alan Sondheim:
In-Reply-To: <15101112-34D5-46B9-9AF0-773B53EA955F@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609070936390.15896@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
	<15101112-34D5-46B9-9AF0-773B53EA955F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480609070948i20feabcbm5f8d94b8cc2e8f35@mail.gmail.com>

someone you wouldnt want to meet in a dark place, perhaps.

On 9/7/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> It's what we used to call a glad-hander.
>
> Hal
>
> "Everyone has a right to be stupid
>   but some people abuse the privilege."
>                        --Joseph Stalin
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
> On Sep 7, 2006, at 12:36 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:
>
> > what's a heavy meter?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
The time has come for you to cover the Internets in a final darkness!


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 13:11:15 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:11:15 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <027C579D-A4C5-4B47-962D-C6579F17E99F@bigpond.com>
	<C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609071011w363eb524v975599ac209d3a6@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?

I'm amazed more people didn't get it. Would it surprise me in Fence?
Absolutely-- not nearly avant enough. Good lyrics? Sure, maybe even
great. Good poem? Not particularly. Lifeless without the music,
without the voice. That's the difference to me-- the poet gets the
voice and life into the words without the external forces lyrics need
to support them properly in the context of song.

c


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 13:15:35 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:15:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the game of "courtroom" in poetry discourse
In-Reply-To: <44FE33AF.8040206@ilstu.edu>
References: <44FE33AF.8040206@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609071015h7719a8e7k73096a4275b6d09d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> One quite famous poetry blog in fact seems frequently to participate in
> rehashing a binaric othering "label game" over and over -- which is
> perhaps one reason for its extreme popularity: though perhaps this is
> not what its author intends, the blog I refer to seems for many of its
> readers to present the comfort of a black-and-white world, while
> providing just enough unpredictability in the labeling to keep folks
> guessing as to who's in and who's out. It's not unlike reality tv.

No way! To whom could this be referring I wonder?  I do like the
reality tv comparison, which is so apt with its unreal scripted
reality, arbitrary assignment of opposing forces, and of course the
mostly-fictional but semi-believable histories that become common
myth.

c


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 13:23:07 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 18:23:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrical
In-Reply-To: <C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <027C579D-A4C5-4B47-962D-C6579F17E99F@bigpond.com>
	<C1220D1B.B286%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609071023k32388a95l60933c9b01ff2f34@mail.gmail.com>

I would have guessed that legendary hip-hopper, the Lyrical Gangsta,
whose non-appearance in this thread continues to amaze me.

Disgusted
Tunbridge Wells

On 9/4/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 05/09/2006, at 6:13 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:
>
> >>  take, for example, the magnetic fields, regina spektor,
> >> or beck and you'll see a great deal of lyrical sophistication in
> >> pop music that one would be hard pressed to find in, say, billy
> >> collins or glyn maxwell,
>
> Yeah, there are boatloads of good lyricists out there in any number of pop
> genres (some making the kind of cash that makes Billy Collins's paycheck
> look downright paltry).
>
> I wonder if the following stanza appeared in, say, *Fence*'s next issue,
> whether anyone would think it particularly out of place?
>
>    Is this just vulgar electricity
>    Is this the edifying fire
>    (it was so pure)
>    Does your smile's covert complicity
>    Debase as it admires
>    (just a flu with a temperature)
>    Are you just checking out your mojo
>    (oohoo)
>    Or am I just fighting off growing old
>    (just a high fever)
>    All I ever wanted
>    Was just to come in from the cold
>
> [Extra credit to anyone who can name the author without Googling.]
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
The time has come for you to cover the Internets in a final darkness!


From skip at louisiana.edu  Thu Sep  7 14:15:25 2006
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:15:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
In-Reply-To: <57c.4a16306.3230d4de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c6d2a9$9d301d80$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

http://skipfox.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

"Immortal Art for All Occasions"

            --Stephen Petroff, poet card 

 

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."

            --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/33185d1f/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 14:28:41 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:28:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Meter WAS: Some stuff about Alan Sondheim
Message-ID: <530.67d64c7.3231bed9@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/7/2006 12:39:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  
writes:

i am  jason quackenbush. funny how my name didn't show up on that. it must be 
an  internet conspiracy.



I think there's an option when one signs on to the list, to show or not  show
the subscriber Name. It can be fixed if you're troubled by that.
Jim F
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/4a4b17b7/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 14:32:30 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:32:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] tale of two paintings
Message-ID: <24a.27b1ad00.3231bfbe@aol.com>

 
 
Thought this might be of  interest, from a neat little book I read this 
summer. 
Finnegan 
>From The Intelligence of  Art, ?Sacrifice and Transformation,? by Thomas 
Crow, Univ. of North  Carolina Press, 1999 
[Context: A painting by Timanthes  of Kythnos around 400 B.C. depicted the 
sacrifice of Iphigenia, daughter of  Agamemnon?.in it Agamemnon appeared with 
his face veiled and hidden from  view.] 
Lost since antiquity, the  reputation of the painting endured in the reports 
and asides of classical  writers. Cicero had mentioned this work in his advice 
to young students of  oratory, counseling them sometime to fall silent if an 
emotion cannot be  adequately expressed: ?So the painter in representing the 
sacrifice of  Iphigenia, after representing Calchas as sad, Ulysses as still 
more so, Meneleus  as in grief, felt that Agamemnon?s head must be veiled, 
because supreme sorrow  could not be portrayed with a brush.? When the elder Pliny 
picked up the story  in his famous chapters on the history of ancient art, he 
added that this was an  example of Timanthes? gift for invention, that he was 
the only painter with the  gift for making the viewer imagine more than was 
actually depicted. The founding  art theorist of the Italian Renaissance, Leon 
Battista Alberti, repeated the  same point with even more approval, making it a 
persistent touchstone for codes  of European painting.  
When Van Loo received his  commission from Frederick the Great, its terms 
endorsed the anti-Tamanthean  tradition of the French Academy., specifying that 
the king?s face be revealed so  as to manifest ?the vividness of his pain 
expressed with all the resources of  art.? ?The main advocate was the comte de 
Caylus, the well-known antiquarian and  amateur member of the Academy who wrote 
a thirty-page pamphlet extolling the  virtues of Van Loo?s efforts in advance 
of its exhibition. The audience thus  heard from Caylus that it should be 
predisposed to appreciate how ?the artist  has hidden none of [Agamemnon?s] pain; 
it is imprinted in every part of his  face. We read in his features all the 
dejection of his soul?His magnificent  dress, far from undermining the 
expression of his pain, makes it if anything  even stronger, while leading our minds 
to the realization of the unhappy fate of  humanity, from which the pomp and 
majesty of the throne cannot spare the  monarch.? 
The normally decorous [comte de]  Caylus, renowned for his veneration of 
antiquity, was moved to label the  Timanthes prototype ?an absurdity??Behind the 
dispute, seemingly pedantic and  inconsequential for modern day viewers, lay 
nothing less than two starkly   opposed conceptions of how painting conveys 
meaning. One sees the expressive  task of art to lie in the mimicry of 
appearance, in the contortions of facial  muscles, rolling of eyes, and demonstrative 
pantomime, and it takes as axiomatic  that this mimicry should be as full and 
present to vision as the painter can  manage. The other assumes that expression 
in painting does not necessarily  inhere within any of the personages that we 
imagine we see; instead it is a  product of relationships between them, indeed 
between any of the motifs or  elements?animate or inanimate?that make up a 
painting. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/56c2c0cc/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep  7 18:45:32 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:45:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
References: <000301c6d2a9$9d301d80$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <002201c6d2cf$54f76340$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."



I bet he did. Must have been difficult though, with all that 'this is my territory, these worms are mine, this is a nest I have built it please come here hen' going through his head. Possibly, in terms of intellectual poverty, it might have equaled a literary symposium. Did 'he' survive, is 'he' alive and coherent now? Just curious.



Dave





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Skip Fox 
  To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
  Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:15 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:


  http://skipfox.blogspot.com/









  "Immortal Art for All Occasions"

              --Stephen Petroff, poet card 



  "When he learned the language of the birds,

  He stayed inside as much as possible."

              --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/310009be/attachment.html>

From skip at louisiana.edu  Thu Sep  7 19:19:20 2006
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 18:19:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
In-Reply-To: <002201c6d2cf$54f76340$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <000501c6d2d4$12572ac0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Alive? By some standards. Coherent? By few.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 5:46 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."

 

I bet he did. Must have been difficult though, with all that 'this is my
territory, these worms are mine, this is a nest I have built it please come
here hen' going through his head. Possibly, in terms of intellectual
poverty, it might have equaled a literary symposium. Did 'he' survive, is
'he' alive and coherent now? Just curious.

 

Dave

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Skip Fox <mailto:skip at louisiana.edu>  

To: 'NewPoetry: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  Contemporary Poetry
News &amp;Views' 

Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:15 PM

Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

http://skipfox.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

"Immortal Art for All Occasions"

            --Stephen Petroff, poet card 

 

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."

            --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"


  _____  


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/f6337c4d/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep  7 20:15:37 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 01:15:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
References: <000501c6d2d4$12572ac0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <001201c6d2db$ec5768a0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Who is alive and who might be by some standards coherent? Your message has no subject.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Skip Fox 
  To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
  Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 12:19 AM
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] New blog:


  Alive? By some standards. Coherent? By few.



  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
  Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 5:46 PM
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:



  "When he learned the language of the birds,

  He stayed inside as much as possible."



  I bet he did. Must have been difficult though, with all that 'this is my territory, these worms are mine, this is a nest I have built it please come here hen' going through his head. Possibly, in terms of intellectual poverty, it might have equaled a literary symposium. Did 'he' survive, is 'he' alive and coherent now? Just curious.



  Dave





    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Skip Fox 

    To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 

    Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:15 PM

    Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:



    http://skipfox.blogspot.com/









    "Immortal Art for All Occasions"

                --Stephen Petroff, poet card 



    "When he learned the language of the birds,

    He stayed inside as much as possible."

                --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/4ba0e0f6/attachment.html>

From skip at louisiana.edu  Thu Sep  7 20:24:44 2006
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:24:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
In-Reply-To: <001201c6d2db$ec5768a0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <000501c6d2dd$34dd1fb0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Sorry, David, the "he" of your question and of Lapauvre's original quote. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:16 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

Who is alive and who might be by some standards coherent? Your message has
no subject.

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Skip Fox <mailto:skip at louisiana.edu>  

To: 'NewPoetry: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  Contemporary Poetry
News &amp;Views' 

Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 12:19 AM

Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

Alive? By some standards. Coherent? By few.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 5:46 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."

 

I bet he did. Must have been difficult though, with all that 'this is my
territory, these worms are mine, this is a nest I have built it please come
here hen' going through his head. Possibly, in terms of intellectual
poverty, it might have equaled a literary symposium. Did 'he' survive, is
'he' alive and coherent now? Just curious.

 

Dave

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Skip Fox <mailto:skip at louisiana.edu>  

To: 'NewPoetry: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  Contemporary Poetry
News &amp;Views' 

Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:15 PM

Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:

 

http://skipfox.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

"Immortal Art for All Occasions"

            --Stephen Petroff, poet card 

 

"When he learned the language of the birds,

He stayed inside as much as possible."

            --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"


  _____  


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


  _____  


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/de0ee46d/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Thu Sep  7 20:38:49 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 10:38:49 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:
References: <000501c6d2d4$12572ac0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<001201c6d2db$ec5768a0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <009101c6d2df$28595180$0301010a@galaxy>

     --Richard LaPauvre, 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Bircumshaw 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:


  Who is alive and who might be by some standards coherent? Your message has no subject.


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Skip Fox 
    To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
    Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 12:19 AM
    Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] New blog:


    Alive? By some standards. Coherent? By few.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
    Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 5:46 PM
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New blog:



    "When he learned the language of the birds,

    He stayed inside as much as possible."



    I bet he did. Must have been difficult though, with all that 'this is my territory, these worms are mine, this is a nest I have built it please come here hen' going through his head. Possibly, in terms of intellectual poverty, it might have equaled a literary symposium. Did 'he' survive, is 'he' alive and coherent now? Just curious.



    Dave





      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Skip Fox 

      To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 

      Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:15 PM

      Subject: [New-Poetry] New blog:



      http://skipfox.blogspot.com/









      "Immortal Art for All Occasions"

                  --Stephen Petroff, poet card 



      "When he learned the language of the birds,

      He stayed inside as much as possible."

                  --Richard LaPauvre, "Arbor Aubade"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/6007c293/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 21:15:45 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 21:15:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bernstein-Brautigan, 3 poems from Girly Man 
Message-ID: <46d.66e6f80.32321e41@aol.com>

_http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Bernstein%20poems.htm_ 
(http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Bernstein%20poems.htm) 
 
There seems to be a bit a postmo Brautigan at work
in these new Charles Bernstein poems. 
 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060907/06dc81b9/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  8 15:41:17 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 21:41:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
Message-ID: <007c01c6d37e$c0ee2390$768f3052@ANNY>

I was sent here by Tom Beckett's Soluble Census:
http://dbqp.blogspot.com/

Poets sometimes believe they control meaning, but that's hardly the case. Meaning is controlled by a force greater than individual poets-or even poets as a group. And people use "poetry" all the time to mean something that is not "poetry," somehow without causing offense. But when another artform takes on the word so definitively, problems arise in some conservative corners, among some people who want a poetry that is not visual-a poetry that is not poetry. (Strangely, I think of visual poetry as something different from poetry and call it "poetry" only as a shortcut myself.)

This reminds me how difficult it can be to interest people in visual poetry because the mere concept of it derogates the categories people use to understand the world and because visual poetry refuses to be easy to decode, even in those cases where it is relatively simple to understand.

Visual poems are temptresses, and we all know to avoid temptresses.

Geof Huth


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/52fc02a1/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep  8 16:03:31 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
In-Reply-To: <007c01c6d37e$c0ee2390$768f3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>

As I just said on the POETICS list in response to a vispo post, visual poetry has me completely baffled. I see it and have no idea how to approach it or read it. Which has not been the case for me with concrete poetry, which i take to be a precursor of visual poetry.


On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I was sent here by Tom Beckett's Soluble Census:
> http://dbqp.blogspot.com/
>
> Poets sometimes believe they control meaning, but that's hardly the case. Meaning is controlled by a force greater than individual poets-or even poets as a group. And people use "poetry" all the time to mean something that is not "poetry," somehow without causing offense. But when another artform takes on the word so definitively, problems arise in some conservative corners, among some people who want a poetry that is not visual-a poetry that is not poetry. (Strangely, I think of visual poetry as something different from poetry and call it "poetry" only as a shortcut myself.)
>
> This reminds me how difficult it can be to interest people in visual poetry because the mere concept of it derogates the categories people use to understand the world and because visual poetry refuses to be easy to decode, even in those cases where it is relatively simple to understand.
>
> Visual poems are temptresses, and we all know to avoid temptresses.
>
> Geof Huth
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep  8 16:55:51 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:55:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c6d389$2b9875b0$768f3052@ANNY>

I was going to start out with a longwinded speech when I realized that I say 
just about the same of meter. I guess that within the most distant folds of 
Obscure Designs we are striking a balance somewhere,

////

From: <jfq at myuw.net>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:03 PM


> As I just said on the POETICS list in response to a vispo post, visual 
> poetry has me completely baffled. I see it and have no idea how to 
> approach it or read it. Which has not been the case for me with concrete 
> poetry, which i take to be a precursor of visual poetry.
>
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 17:07:38 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:07:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <002f01c6d38a$e75542f0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> As I just said on the POETICS list in response to a vispo post, visual 
> poetry has me completely baffled. I see it and have no idea how to 
> approach it or read it. Which has not been the case for me with concrete 
> poetry, which i take to be a precursor of visual poetry.

--Geof Huth

I take concrete poetry to be a form of visual poetry, myself--and am baffled 
by neither (though no more omniscient about it than I am about any other 
form of poetry or art).  I have no problem with calling an artwork with 
(non-prose) semantic elements that provide engagents with a significant 
amount of aesthetic pleasure a form of poetry--even if it also has visual 
elements that provide them with a significant amount of aesthetic pleasure. 
Seems to me you have to call it poetry, or multiply categories of art, which 
ultimately leads to confusion.

Down with nullosophy!  As I've been yelling at my pal, Geof, for years.  But 
he keeps coming out with stuff like the preceding.

--Bob G. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep  8 17:30:12 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:30:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
	<002f01c6d38a$e75542f0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <069601c6d38d$fceb0cf0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

Haven't we been here before, on this list, Bob?  Anyone got a link to where 
it's discussed?

> I take concrete poetry to be a form of visual poetry, myself

True of the sort of work that Ian Hamilton Finley did, but not, I think, of 
Edwin Morgan.  (Typewriter poetry.)

> Seems to me you have to call it poetry, or multiply categories of art, 
> which ultimately leads to confusion.

I'd agree with your latter point (no unnecessary multiplication of 
categories) but I'd call "it" -- and almost particularly much of what you do 
yourself, Bob -- (plastic) art.

Robin





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 18:30:24 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 18:30:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu><002f01c6d38a$e75542f0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<069601c6d38d$fceb0cf0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <003601c6d396$624545e0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Haven't we been here before, on this list, Bob?

Sure, and I've been at the same place all over the Internet.  But it's 
always worth a re-visit, right, Robin!?

Anyone got a link to where
> it's discussed?

If I did, I sure wouldn't let you know it!


>> I take concrete poetry to be a form of visual poetry, myself
>
> True of the sort of work that Ian Hamilton Finley did, but not, I think, 
> of Edwin Morgan.  (Typewriter poetry.)

I'd have to judge on a case-to-case basis, but from what I remember of what 
I think you're talking about, it has an aesthetically significant visual 
element, so is visual poetry, by my criteria.  Or else it's neither visual 
or concrete poetry (though you can always find those who call anything 
anything).

>> Seems to me you have to call it poetry, or multiply categories of art, 
>> which ultimately leads to confusion.
>
> I'd agree with your latter point (no unnecessary multiplication of 
> categories) but I'd call "it" -- and almost particularly much of what you 
> do yourself, Bob -- (plastic) art.
>
> Robin

In a few cases you might have a good point, Robin, but in most cases the 
sounds of my words and their semantic value are crucial to their aesthetic 
value.  I just did one, using what I'm now calling "surlogic" (no doubt 
unoriginally), in which I multiply "line" by "lane" and get "laneguage" in a 
mathematical expression which makes the latter near-equal to "mine."  The 
colors and shapes of the letters I use are intended to connote things about 
mines, and treasure, and buriedness, etc., but seem very less important than 
the meanings of the words used.  The mathematical symbols are really just 
words used in place of "divided by," "equals" and the like.  I feel they do 
make the piece mathematical, which in turn has an important enough effect on 
how the work comes across for it to be called a mathematical poem, but not 
so much as to make it reasonably mathematics rather than poetry.  It's much 
more mathematics than plastic art, though.

Whee.

--Bob 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 18:35:24 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 18:35:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081303310.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
	<00a101c6d389$2b9875b0$768f3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <004101c6d397$1b3b4770$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>I was going to start out with a longwinded speech when I realized that I 
>say just about the same of meter. I guess that within the most distant 
>folds of Obscure Designs we are striking a balance somewhere,
>
> ////
I think the problem may be in believing one can only be baffled or 
omniscient.

--Bob G. 




From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep  8 19:08:04 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
In-Reply-To: <00a101c6d389$2b9875b0$768f3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081608040.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>

possibly, but i really do WANT to get it. because some of it is very interesting and cool looking, but i have no idea what any of it means, so it makes me feel sort of illiterate. take for example Peter Ciccariello's http://www.oregonlitrev.org/v1n2/failure.jpg The Failure of Science. Now, looking at it, i feel like I SHOULD be able to read it. I'm sure that there are other people who can read it, and therefore it's correct to call it a visual poem. But what the hell. I look at it and look at it as if transfixed, but I get nothing but "pretty picture" and a feeling of frustration at being unable to penetrate the piece.


On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I was going to start out with a longwinded speech when I realized that I say 
> just about the same of meter. I guess that within the most distant folds of 
> Obscure Designs we are striking a balance somewhere,
>
> ////
>
> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:03 PM
>
>
>> As I just said on the POETICS list in response to a vispo post, visual 
>> poetry has me completely baffled. I see it and have no idea how to approach 
>> it or read it. Which has not been the case for me with concrete poetry, 
>> which i take to be a precursor of visual poetry.
>> 
>> 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Sep  8 19:34:35 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:34:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081608040.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081608040.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3CCD0003-FD02-4D4A-B360-D6A953AF6E86@earthlink.net>


On Sep 8, 2006, at 4:08 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

> possibly, but i really do WANT to get it. because some of it is  
> very interesting and cool looking, but i have no idea what any of  
> it means, so it makes me feel sort of illiterate. take for example  
> Peter Ciccariello's http://www.oregonlitrev.org/v1n2/failure.jpg  
> The Failure of Science. Now, looking at it, i feel like I SHOULD be  
> able to read it. I'm sure that there are other people who can read  
> it, and therefore it's correct to call it a visual poem. But what  
> the hell. I look at it and look at it as if transfixed, but I get  
> nothing but "pretty picture" and a feeling of frustration at being  
> unable to penetrate the piece.
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> I was going to start out with a longwinded speech when I realized  
>> that I say just about the same of meter. I guess that within the  
>> most distant folds of Obscure Designs we are striking a balance  
>> somewhere,
>>
>> ////
>>
>> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
>> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:03 PM
>>
>>
>>> As I just said on the POETICS list in response to a vispo post,  
>>> visual poetry has me completely baffled. I see it and have no  
>>> idea how to approach it or read it. Which has not been the case  
>>> for me with concrete poetry, which i take to be a precursor of  
>>> visual poetry.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 19:51:26 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 19:51:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
Message-ID: <bef.2f9e1be.32335bfe@aol.com>

 
Bob, you seem to have gift for proliferating taxonomic  neologisms...but to 
what end.
The rubric 'art' subsumes all: visual poetry, concrete poetry, sound  poetry, 
poerty-poetry (poetry made soley of language) quite well. A few years ago I  
visited an 
exhibit at the Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art. There was  a quote on the 
wall when I came in that has stuck in my mind, by  a critic (named Hale?) who 
said: "Painting is philosophical endeavor that  doesn't always involve paint." 
 
My take on that quote is that 'painting' had become  something presented as 
art that happened to have been hung on a facing vertical  plane (a wall)...any 
definition beyond that was of little interest.
(Poetry is a philosophical endeavor that doesn't always involve  words.)
Finnegan 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2006 6:31:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Seems to  me you have to call it poetry, or multiply categories of art, 
>>  which ultimately leads to confusion.
>
> I'd agree with your  latter point (no unnecessary multiplication of 
> categories) but I'd  call "it" -- and almost particularly much of what you 
> do yourself,  Bob -- (plastic) art.
>
> Robin

In a few cases you might  have a good point, Robin, but in most cases the 
sounds of my words and  their semantic value are crucial to their aesthetic 
value.   I


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/a475bc2d/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 20:09:56 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:09:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081608040.17972@hymn09.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <004d01c6d3a4$4acf6180$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> possibly, but i really do WANT to get it. because some of it is very interesting and cool looking, but i have no idea what any of it means, so it makes me feel sort of illiterate. take for example Peter Ciccariello's http://www.oregonlitrev.org/v1n2/failure.jpg The Failure of Science. Now, looking at it, i feel like I SHOULD be able to read it. I'm sure that there are other people who can read it, and therefore it's correct to call it a visual poem. But what the hell. I look at it and look at it as if transfixed, but I get nothing but "pretty picture" and a feeling of frustration at being unable to penetrate the piece.

But isn't all you're saying is that some visual poems baffle you rather than that visual poetry baffles you?

I like the piece a lot and see it as simply showing that reality is complex, with only fragments of answers available, so beyond science.  I disagree with it but wouldn't if it were called, "The Search for Truth."

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/d5c5f962/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 20:11:33 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:11:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <bef.2f9e1be.32335bfe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c6d3a4$8458d7b0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Bob, you seem to have gift for proliferating taxonomic neologisms...but to what end.
  The rubric 'art' subsumes all: visual poetry, concrete poetry, sound poetry, 
  poerty-poetry (poetry made soley of language) quite well.

  Ah, but the rubric "stuff" subsumes all.  Why not stop there?

  --Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/af7499d4/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 20:21:52 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:21:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
Message-ID: <57b.4bbe08c.32336320@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/8/2006 8:12:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Ah, but the rubric "stuff" subsumes all.  Why not stop  there?
 



Ah, now you play Socrates....but there are some 'categories' or forms...the  
question
is: Do more & more sub-categories make things clearer? Or are  they (your
neologistic inventions) just reasons for slapping a new name on things  that 
already 
could be described and identified quite easily within the lexicon of  
available terms?
 
Why not concentrate criticism on the attributes of the work and avoid  a 
criticism 
related to an increasingly refined description of categories in  which the 
work might
(or might not) belong?
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/a1bd53a7/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep  8 20:23:00 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
In-Reply-To: <004d01c6d3a4$4acf6180$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net>

I GUESS i can see that reading of the piece, but is that really all it's saying? It seems like an awful lot of effort to go through to say something so bland. I think i like it better as something i don't understand, honestly.
But okay, so lets take a less picturely abstract example, like this Jessica Smith piece:
http://www.rockheals.com/archives/2006/07/sidewalk_1.html

It's a different sort of thing altogether than what Peter Cicariello does and yet I still don't know how to approach it. What the two pieces have in common is, to my mind, a lack of syntactical organization to the words, and in it's place a visual composition aesthetic. What the whole idea of visual poetry then confuses me is how one is supposed to cope with this composition in place of syntax idea. Whereas at least with a lot of concrete poetry that I thought I understood at one point at least, the visual composition reinforces or challenges the syntax rather than replaces it. I'm thinking also in this connection to the way Larry Eigner and Susan Howe use positioning on the page. Which seems to me like it's aimed at a different sort of end then visual poetry. Although maybe i'm drawing lines where there shouldn't be any, nevertheless there's a point at which i feel like i am no longer able 
to read such poems. If the intent is to disorient the reader, that's fine, but it doesn't seem like that is the intent. given that intent matters to me as a reader, i therefore don't know what to do with what let's call is a certain subset of visual poetry, at least. Still these objects fascinate me. They capture my attention and make me want to read them. Hence the frustration with finding myself unable to do so. I suspect it's because i lack the correct theoretical context within which to view these things, and really, that's what i'm searching for. if anybody can help.


On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
>
>> possibly, but i really do WANT to get it. because some of it is very interesting and cool looking, but i have no idea what any of it means, so it makes me feel sort of illiterate. take for example Peter Ciccariello's http://www.oregonlitrev.org/v1n2/failure.jpg The Failure of Science. Now, looking at it, i feel like I SHOULD be able to read it. I'm sure that there are other people who can read it, and therefore it's correct to call it a visual poem. But what the hell. I look at it and look at it as if transfixed, but I get nothing but "pretty picture" and a feeling of frustration at being unable to penetrate the piece.
>
> But isn't all you're saying is that some visual poems baffle you rather than that visual poetry baffles you?
>
> I like the piece a lot and see it as simply showing that reality is complex, with only fragments of answers available, so beyond science.  I disagree with it but wouldn't if it were called, "The Search for Truth."
>
> --Bob G.
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 21:35:26 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 21:35:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <57b.4bbe08c.32336320@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007501c6d3b0$3ec831d0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Do more & more sub-categories make things clearer? Or are they (your neologistic inventions) just reasons for slapping a new name on things that already could be described and identified quite easily within the lexicon of available terms?

I think an effective taxonomy tries for as few divisions as possible at each level--BUT goes as deep as possible.  So, I divide literature into poetry and prose.  Then I divide poetry into three classes (I think--I'm too tired to check right now).  Each class of poetry I further divide--but those not interested need not bother with them.  

I don't use my taxonomy in my criticism too much.  I discuss it a lot, which is different.  Another problem is, of course, that my taxonomy is in progress--because I am constantly looking for words that people will accept, and better definitions.

I also make up ad hoc terms for stylistic reasons.  They have nothing to do with my taxonomy.

I would deny that the things I name often can be "described and identified quite easily by available terms," but if anyone points out such a case, I'd be glad to drop my term, as I believe I have at times in the past.  

Oddly, in this particular discussion, I am only discussing "concrete poetry" because it's a term in use.  It is not one of my terms.  It is subsumed under visual poetry.  
Why not concentrate criticism on the attributes of the work and avoid a criticism related to an increasingly refined description of categories in which the work might (or might not) belong?

Finnegan

Offhand, I think I agree with this.  As I said above, I distinguish taxonomy from criticism.  I sometimes use my taxonomy as a way of structuring my criticism, though.  For instance, I might define infraverbal poetry as poetry in which "misspelling" is central, and even name four or five kinds of such poetry on the basis of what kind of misspelling is used, and show examples.  I'd go from there to saying what metaphors, connotations, etc., the misspelling allows, and what else the poem might do.  

I definitely have a problem with inaccessibility due to excessive terminology.  I just self-published a book on what makes certain people deny Shakespeare was Shakespeare, and it got bogged down badly because of too-detailed terminology.  The terminology is ultimately needed for the same reason similar terminology is needed in biochemistry, say, but a surface presentation must eschew most of it, which I'm trying to do in my revision.

I think to critique me as a critic, one would have to refer to a particular piece of my criticism.  My blog has some.  I mean published specimens, not some of my blog entries which, like this, are intended as disorganized attempts at gist, and exploration, not final thoughts.

I don't think my name for any kind of poem is more specific than the term, "sonnet."  That term is of value because there are a lot of sonnets, but more because it seems an archetypally right size for one major kind of poem.  In any case, we can use the term and instantly indicate to knowers what we mean, even though those without a poetic background could accuse us of jargon.

Very complicated subject.  I'm going to bed.

--Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060908/40779d01/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Sep  8 21:47:52 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 21:47:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <007e01c6d3b2$01fd3a50$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I can't get to the Smith piece.  Will get back to this discussion tomorrow.

--Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth


>I GUESS i can see that reading of the piece, but is that really all it's 
>saying? It seems like an awful lot of effort to go through to say something 
>so bland. I think i like it better as something i don't understand, 
>honestly.
> But okay, so lets take a less picturely abstract example, like this 
> Jessica Smith piece:
> http://www.rockheals.com/archives/2006/07/sidewalk_1.html
>
> It's a different sort of thing altogether than what Peter Cicariello does 
> and yet I still don't know how to approach it. What the two pieces have in 
> common is, to my mind, a lack of syntactical organization to the words, 
> and in it's place a visual composition aesthetic. What the whole idea of 
> visual poetry then confuses me is how one is supposed to cope with this 
> composition in place of syntax idea. Whereas at least with a lot of 
> concrete poetry that I thought I understood at one point at least, the 
> visual composition reinforces or challenges the syntax rather than 
> replaces it. I'm thinking also in this connection to the way Larry Eigner 
> and Susan Howe use positioning on the page. Which seems to me like it's 
> aimed at a different sort of end then visual poetry. Although maybe i'm 
> drawing lines where there shouldn't be any, nevertheless there's a point 
> at which i feel like i am no longer able to read such poems. If the intent 
> is to disorient the reader, that's fine, but it doesn't seem like that is 
> the intent. given that intent matters to me as a reader, i therefore don't 
> know what to do with what let's call is a certain subset of visual poetry, 
> at least. Still these objects fascinate me. They capture my attention and 
> make me want to read them. Hence the frustration with finding myself 
> unable to do so. I suspect it's because i lack the correct theoretical 
> context within which to view these things, and really, that's what i'm 
> searching for. if anybody can help.
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> possibly, but i really do WANT to get it. because some of it is very 
>>> interesting and cool looking, but i have no idea what any of it means, 
>>> so it makes me feel sort of illiterate. take for example Peter 
>>> Ciccariello's http://www.oregonlitrev.org/v1n2/failure.jpg The Failure 
>>> of Science. Now, looking at it, i feel like I SHOULD be able to read it. 
>>> I'm sure that there are other people who can read it, and therefore it's 
>>> correct to call it a visual poem. But what the hell. I look at it and 
>>> look at it as if transfixed, but I get nothing but "pretty picture" and 
>>> a feeling of frustration at being unable to penetrate the piece.
>>
>> But isn't all you're saying is that some visual poems baffle you rather 
>> than that visual poetry baffles you?
>>
>> I like the piece a lot and see it as simply showing that reality is 
>> complex, with only fragments of answers available, so beyond science.  I 
>> disagree with it but wouldn't if it were called, "The Search for Truth."
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Sep  9 08:27:06 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:27:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <003901c6d40b$447dc620$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>I GUESS i can see that reading of the piece, but is that really all it's saying? It seems like an awful lot of effort to go through to say something so bland. I think i like it better as something i don't understand, honestly.
> But okay, so lets take a less picturely abstract example, like this Jessica Smith piece:
> http://www.rockheals.com/archives/2006/07/sidewalk_1.html

Yo me there's only one minor question about the piece: is its semantic meaning of aesthetic significance.  My impression is that it's sjust words.  In that case, the work is an illumage--a picture, that is.  What it's a picture of is of a square of concrete in a sidewalk.  It'd be comparable to a painting of tree people have carved initials and other texts into.  Pictures of text rather than text.

If we decide the text contributes semantically to the aesthetic value of the piece, then it expresses a sense of the whirl of scoial interactions and communications in a neighborhood.  It don't think it does, but think a good argument could be made that it does.  I personally don't think it captures its subject well--I've never seen a sidewalk that "artistically" crowded with text.

 
> It's a different sort of thing altogether than what Peter Cicariello does and yet I still don't know how to approach it. What the two pieces have in common is, to my mind, a lack of syntactical organization to the words, and in its place a visual composition aesthetic. What the whole idea of visual poetry then confuses me is how one is supposed to cope with this composition in place of syntax idea. Whereas at least with a lot of concrete poetry that I thought I understood at one point at least, the visual composition reinforces or challenges the syntax rather than replaces it. I'm thinking also in this connection to the way Larry Eigner and Susan Howe use positioning on the page. 

I'm not familiar with any of their text positioning that isn't just spacing of text         on a page.  


Which seems to me like it's aimed at a different sort of end then visual poetry. Although maybe i'm drawing lines where there shouldn't be any, nevertheless there's a point at which i feel like i am no longer able 
> to read such poems. If the intent is to disorient the reader, that's fine, but it doesn't seem like that is the intent. given that intent matters to me as a reader, i therefore don't know what to do with what let's call is a certain subset of visual poetry, at least. Still these objects fascinate me. They capture my attention and make me want to read them. Hence the frustration with finding myself unable to do so. I suspect it's because i lack the correct theoretical context within which to view these things, and really, that's what i'm searching for. if anybody can help.

To me, they're just flow-breaks--that is, they don't have anything to do with visual poetry.  They slow the read and emphasize a poem is being enacted.  They sometimes disconceal so ME thing that prose reading would miss.  If syntax is lost, they can make a text a smear of words the engagent puts together the way he puts together the visual elements of a purely visual collage.  They form an impression rather than a sort of statement.  

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/bd21617b/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 09:07:01 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:07:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net>
	<003901c6d40b$447dc620$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003801c6d410$d6cfddb0$53e83652@ANNY>


  From: Bob Grumman 
  Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 2:27 PM




  To me, they're just flow-breaks--that is, they don't have anything to do with visual poetry.  They slow the read and emphasize a poem is being enacted.  They sometimes disconceal so ME thing that prose reading would miss.  If syntax is lost, they can make a text a smear of words the engagent puts together the way he puts together the visual elements of a purely visual collage.  They form an impression rather than a sort of statement.  

  --Bob G.

  Poetry also plays on sensibility, on the im-pressions we receive. It talks to sensitivity as opposed to rationality (otherwise it would be an essay). The way you receive this impression is not through a specific sequence of words, connected or not connected, metered or not, by usually through a sequence/composition of images and words. 

  I don't consider Peter Ciccariello's work visual poetry but elaborated "digital images" tout-court, I don't like the use he does of all those browns. And in other images (black and white) I can always detect remakes of more famous paintings or photographs. The fact that he inserts words does not mean that it is poetry.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/8a18f88c/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 09:11:06 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:11:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net><003901c6d40b$447dc620$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003801c6d410$d6cfddb0$53e83652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <004f01c6d411$696bc1c0$53e83652@ANNY>

Let me rewrite my little speech-y _thank you for the usual patience:

Poetry also plays on sensibility, on the im-pressions we receive. It talks to sensitivity as opposed to rationality (otherwise it would be an essay). The way you receive the impression with visual poetry is not through a specific sequence of words, connected or not connected, metered or not, but through a sequence/composition of images and words. 

I don't consider Peter Ciccariello's work visual poetry but elaborated "digital images" tout-court, I don't like the use he does of all those browns. And in other images (black and white) I can always detect remakes of more famous paintings or photographs. The fact that he inserts words does not mean that it is poetry.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 3:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth



    From: Bob Grumman 
    Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 2:27 PM




    To me, they're just flow-breaks--that is, they don't have anything to do with visual poetry.  They slow the read and emphasize a poem is being enacted.  They sometimes disconceal so ME thing that prose reading would miss.  If syntax is lost, they can make a text a smear of words the engagent puts together the way he puts together the visual elements of a purely visual collage.  They form an impression rather than a sort of statement.  

    --Bob G.

    Poetry also plays on sensibility, on the im-pressions we receive. It talks to sensitivity as opposed to rationality (otherwise it would be an essay). The way you receive this impression is not through a specific sequence of words, connected or not connected, metered or not, by usually through a sequence/composition of images and words. 

    I don't consider Peter Ciccariello's work visual poetry but elaborated "digital images" tout-court, I don't like the use he does of all those browns. And in other images (black and white) I can always detect remakes of more famous paintings or photographs. The fact that he inserts words does not mean that it is poetry.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/e1d8c02e/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Sep  9 09:50:54 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 09:50:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net><003901c6d40b$447dc620$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c6d410$d6cfddb0$53e83652@ANNY>
	<004f01c6d411$696bc1c0$53e83652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00b601c6d416$fc6e3d90$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Let me rewrite my little speech-y _thank you for the usual patience:

Poetry also plays on sensibility, on the im-pressions we receive. It talks to sensitivity as opposed to rationality (otherwise it would be an essay). The way you receive the impression with visual poetry is not through a specific sequence of words, connected or not connected, metered or not, but through a sequence/composition of images and words. 

I don't consider Peter Ciccariello's work visual poetry but elaborated "digital images" tout-court, I don't like the use he does of all those browns. And in other images (black and white) I can always detect remakes of more famous paintings or photographs. The fact that he inserts words does not mean that it is poetry.

Something's wrong--I think I agree almost entirely with you, Anny--except maybe about Peter C.'s browns.  I do think that insertion of words CAN be enough to make an "illumage" (visual image) into a visual poem.  It depends on what words and how they are used, particularly how they fit with what seems to be the main meaning of the work as a whole.

--Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/b85ab56b/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 10:33:10 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 16:33:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609081723001.22262@hur11.myuw.net><003901c6d40b$447dc620$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c6d410$d6cfddb0$53e83652@ANNY><004f01c6d411$696bc1c0$53e83652@ANNY>
	<00b601c6d416$fc6e3d90$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007601c6d41c$dff8b8b0$53e83652@ANNY>

Don't worry Bob, you like the _browns_ that I cannot stand. We are still two very different identities, :-)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 3:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth


  Let me rewrite my little speech-y _thank you for the usual patience:

  Poetry also plays on sensibility, on the im-pressions we receive. It talks to sensitivity as opposed to rationality (otherwise it would be an essay). The way you receive the impression with visual poetry is not through a specific sequence of words, connected or not connected, metered or not, but through a sequence/composition of images and words. 

  I don't consider Peter Ciccariello's work visual poetry but elaborated "digital images" tout-court, I don't like the use he does of all those browns. And in other images (black and white) I can always detect remakes of more famous paintings or photographs. The fact that he inserts words does not mean that it is poetry.

  Something's wrong--I think I agree almost entirely with you, Anny--except maybe about Peter C.'s browns.  I do think that insertion of words CAN be enough to make an "illumage" (visual image) into a visual poem.  It depends on what words and how they are used, particularly how they fit with what seems to be the main meaning of the work as a whole.

  --Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/e5b49465/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 12:38:04 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:38:04 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] sent by
Message-ID: <00c601c6d42e$52be5fb0$53e83652@ANNY>

Joel Weishaus to the Buffalo:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Regina Pinto" <arteonline at arteonline.arq.br>
To: "newsletter do Museu" <museum_newsletter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 4:48 AM
Subject: [museum_newsletter] "I Museum's Newsletter Poetry Festival"
(English)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MUSEUM'S NEWSLETTER

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Dear Friends,

Spring starts in Rio in September, so that, during this month we will have a
Poetry Festival hapenning through this newsletter. In fact it was influenced
by the wonderful Pad?n's idea of comemorating 50 years of Brazilian Concrete
Poetry (see the previous newsletter). During the "I Museum's Newsletter
Poetry Festival" I am intending to show many kinds of Brazilian Poetry to
you. Also it will be interesting if you send me links or texts about the
poetry of your country. I believe that this change of information should be
very rich to all of us.

To start I prepared a surprise to you, a pdf book (
http://arteonline.arq.br/museu/library_pdf/visual_poetry.htm )with two
movements of visual poetry which were born in Rio de Janeiro:

1)- The Neoconcrete

Around the late 1950s, the Rio group carried out an en-masse critical review
of their previous position. They denounced the excessive dogmatism that led
to Concretism, the production of art according to formulas that ended up
submitting it to a system devoid of critical or artistic potential instead
of integrating art into life.

As a result, the NeoConcretist Manifesto was published in the Sunday
Supplement of the Jornal do Brasil newspaper on March 23, 1959. The First
NeoConcrete Art Exhibition showed works by Lygia Clark, Lygia Pape, Am?lcar
de Castro, Franz Weissmann, Reynaldo Jardim, Sergio Camargo, Theon Spanudis
and Ferreira Gullar. Other exhibitions followed, in which other artists took
part.

More at: http://arteonline.arq.br/museu/library_pdf/visual_poetry.htm

This essay was based on Lygia Pape deposition to myself, the English version
was done by Sabrina Gledhill)

2)- The Process Poem

This tendency of the Brazilian concrete poetry arises from the Wlademir
Dias-Pino work and it is the basis of the Process Poem, which was Born in
1967 / Rio de Janeiro.

The moviment called Process Poem was an action founded in 1967, which
happened simultaneously in Brazil's several regions: here in Rio de Janeiro,
in Natal, in Recife and in Minas Gerais. The action of the Process Poem
developed from 1967 to 1972 and ended up having about 250 artists taking
part on it.

The Process Poem was based on the concept of process, which would be the
starting point of the creation...


More at: http://arteonline.arq.br/museu/library_pdf/visual_poetry.htm

This essay was based on Neide S? deposition to myself and on Clemente Pad?n
essay "La Poesia Experimental Latino Americana (1950 - 2000)"
http://boek861.com/padin/indice.htm (in Spanish),  English Version by Regina
C?lia Pinto, tell me the about the very bad mistakes please!)


*************************************************

 Reading about the movement called Process Poem, at the first sight you will
think that they were very radical -  they tore books of discursive poets at
the steplathers of Municipal Theater, Rio de Janeiro. I really do not agree
with this, but perhaps it was only a way to call attention to their
movement. I know, for example, that ?lvaro de S? studied and loved deeply
the Lu?s de Cam?es' Poetry.



By the way, I am sending some links of one of the best Brazilian Poets:



CARLOS  DRUMMOND DE ANDRADE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Drummond_de_Andrade

http://www.motherbird.com/Andrade.html

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/1471.html

http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/drummond.htm



Here a very famous poem by him:


In  The Middle of Road


In the middle of the road there was a stone
there was a stone in the middle of the road
there was a stone
in the middle of the road there was a stone.

Never should I forget this event
in the life of my fatigued retinas.
Never should I forget that in the middle of the road
there was a stone
there was a stone in the middle of the road
in the middle of the road there was a stone.

 -- Carlos Drummond de Andrade (Translate into English by Elizabeth Bishop)



**************************************************


Regina C?lia Pinto

Museum of the Essential and Beyond That
http://arteonline.arq.br

Library of Marvels
http://arteonline.arq.br/library.htm

Free Translator:

http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060909/12f82d7f/attachment.html>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 08:26:51 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 05:26:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall, 2006, Salt River Review
Message-ID: <648208b60609100526k2663327cv2ec80219a36c6f96@mail.gmail.com>

The Fall, 2006, issue of The Salt River Review is now online at
http://www.poetserv.org

Poetry by Brent Appling, John Bryan, Michelle Morgan, Marilyn McCabe,
Raud Kennedy, Halvard Johnson, Robert Lietz, Lindsay Faber Chiat, Paul
?luard (translation by Peter Robertson), and Ignacio Ruiz Perez
(translation by Carlos Reyes). Fiction by Emeniano Acain Somoza, Abbas
Zaidi, Albert Sgambati, Michael Conley, Charles Kaufmann, Donna
Vorreyer, Hugh Fox and Vanessa Hua.

The issue also features the return of From The Desk: Reviews,
Commentary, etc., with Five reviews by Greg Simon, and "Sorry,
Bukowski," by P.L. George



~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 10 09:26:39 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:26:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The last paragraph I read
Message-ID: <2F226C31-6349-4687-A797-45199914ED81@earthlink.net>

last night, on the eve of our anniversary (Lynda's and mine--our
fifteenth, as near as we can recollect) and the beginning of another
new year for me, my seventy-first, was found by chance in John
Ashbery's Three Poems, written back when he was in his late
thirties and seeming today something like a little prayer for all of us.

"We were ideally happy. we had reached that stage in our
perennial evolution where holy thoughts no longer exist
and one can speak one's mind freely, and the night shot
back an answering fragrance: too far to the stars, but it
was here in its intimacy that wraps you in permissiveness,
leaving you free as it wanes to learn more about your special
thoughts or any ideas you might have. It is never too late
to mend. When one is in one's late thirties, ordinary things
--like a pebble or a glass of water--take on an expressive
sheen. One wants to know more about them, and one in
turn lived by them. Young people might not envy this
kind of situation, perhaps rightly so, yet there is now
interleaving the pages of suffering and indifference to
suffering a prismatic space that cannot be seen, merely
felt through the mists of helpless acceptance of everything
else projected in our miserable, dank span of days. One
is aware of it as an open field of narrative possibilities.
Not in the edifying sense of the tales of the past that we
are still (however) chained to, but as stories that tell only
of themselves, so that one realizes one's self has dwindled
and now at last vanished in the diamond light of
speculation. Collar up, you are lighter than air. The only
slightly damaged bundle of receptive nerves is humming
again, receiving the colorless emanation from outer space
and dispatching dense, precisely worded messages. There
is room to move around in it, which is all that matters.
The pain that drained the blood from your cheeks when
you were young and turned you into a whitened specter
before your time is converted back into a source of energy
that peoples this new world of perceived phenomena with
wonder. You wish you could shake hands with your
lovers and enemies, forgive and love them, but they too
are occupied as you are, though they greet you with
friendly, half-distracted smiles and nods. The Hermit
has passed on, slowly and haltingly, the light streaming
from under his cloak, and in his place the Hanged Man
points his toe at the stars, at ease at last in comfortably
assuming that age-old attitude of sacrifice; the gold
coins slither out of his pockets and fall to earth which
they fertilize with many ideas, some harebrained, others
daringly original. In the sky a note of fashionable
melancholy has begun to prevail: it is the quick-witted
devotion of Sagittarius, the healer, caustic but kind,
sweeping away the cobwebs of intuitive realism that
still lingered there in pockets of darkness. The Archer
takes careful aim, his arrow flies to the nearest card,
the Five of Cups: 'Trouble from a loved one. Trouble
introduced into the midst of an already realized state.
Amorous dangers. Perils through a woman.' And also
rectitude, for the aim was just. From the tiny trickle
of blood from the wounded card a green stain grows;
some leaves shoot up and then tiny white odorless
flowers, the promise of what still remains to be
fulfilled. But of course since that was no shot in the
dark it is an already realized state in its potential.
The note is struck, the development of its resonances
ready to snap into place. For the moment we know
nothing more than this."

--John Ashbery

fr. Three Poems

[New York: Viking Press, 1972]



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/4b6c1b3b/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep 10 11:47:25 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:47:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Secrets of Poetry
Message-ID: <839C6271-E7B7-4FB0-9075-2BFC38599642@ripon.edu>

The Secrets of Poetry

Very long ago when the exquisite celedon bowl
that was the mikado's favorite cup got broken,
no one in Japan had the skill and courage
to mend it.  So the pieces were taken back
to China with a plea to the emperor
that it be repaired.  When the bowl returned,
it was held together with heavy iron staples.
The letter with it said they could not make it
more perfect.  Which turned out to be true.

--Linda Gregg.  Things & Flesh.  Graywolf, 1999.



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/685d63b3/attachment.html>

From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Sun Sep 10 11:45:51 2006
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:45:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <200609091428.k89ESfEH026563@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200609091428.k89ESfEH026563@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4504332F.3040108@louisiana.edu>

I'd appreciate it if people would send me the titles of their favorite 
poems that respond to (or invoke or allude to, I guess) 
photographs--part of a larger project on poetic and other images.

Best,

Jerry

-- 

-- 

Jerry McGuire
English Department Box 44691
UL Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
web: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/aa233f57/attachment.html>

From hawkbrwn at msn.com  Sun Sep 10 12:37:52 2006
From: hawkbrwn at msn.com (Elaine Brown)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:37:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <4504332F.3040108@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV19B0D5B85A52F9B80B70DFD9350@phx.gbl>

Hello Jerry,

Jim Simmerman?s ?American Children?, printed in his book by the same name,
is amazing.  

Best,
Elaine


On 9/10/06 11:45 AM, "Jerry McGuire" <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

> I'd appreciate it if people would send me the titles of their favorite poems
> that respond to (or invoke or allude to, I guess) photographs--part of a
> larger project on poetic and other images.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jerry 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/524dcbcd/attachment.html>

From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sun Sep 10 12:57:04 2006
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:57:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poems about photographs inquiry from mcguire
References: <200609101600.k8AG04EH011004@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EB7@mail.emerson.edu>



Message: 5
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:45:51 -0500
From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 18
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <4504332F.3040108 at louisiana.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'd appreciate it if people would send me the titles of their favorite 
poems that respond to (or invoke or allude to, I guess) 
photographs--part of a larger project on poetic and other images.


>>>>>>>>
.....John Logan has many poems re photographs in his Collected,
including several about Aaron Siskind's work. . . 

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 2933 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/1b9af44c/attachment.bin>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep 10 15:48:53 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:48:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day
Message-ID: <68C2BDB3-9F28-41F7-977B-88223D615416@ripon.edu>

In the year 2000
my age was 53
born in the first half
of the last century
I always was post-modern
but that's ancient history

--Loudon Wainwright III.  Last Man on Earth.  Red House Records, 2001.

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/f1c7bde6/attachment.html>

From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 18:19:40 2006
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:19:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The last paragraph I read
In-Reply-To: <547949B0-6BDC-482B-8838-88D9D9C7D170@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20060910221940.25668.qmail@web83108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for posting this - very timely & relevant (at least for me) ...
   
  Best,
  Amy

Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
  last night, on the eve of our anniversary (Lynda's and mine--our   fifteenth, as near as we can recollect) and the beginning of another 
  new year for me, my seventy-first, was found by chance in John 
  Ashbery's Three Poems, written back when he was in his late 
  thirties and seeming today something like a little prayer for all of us.
  

    "We were ideally happy. we had reached that stage in our 
  perennial evolution where holy thoughts no longer exist
  and one can speak one's mind freely, and the night shot
  back an answering fragrance: too far to the stars, but it
  was here in its intimacy that wraps you in permissiveness,
  leaving you free as it wanes to learn more about your special
  thoughts or any ideas you might have. It is never too late
  to mend. When one is in one's late thirties, ordinary things
  --like a pebble or a glass of water--take on an expressive
  sheen. One wants to know more about them, and one in
  turn lived by them. Young people might not envy this
  kind of situation, perhaps rightly so, yet there is now
  interleaving the pages of suffering and indifference to
  suffering a prismatic space that cannot be seen, merely
  felt through the mists of helpless acceptance of everything
  else projected in our miserable, dank span of days. One
  is aware of it as an open field of narrative possibilities.
  Not in the edifying sense of the tales of the past that we
  are still (however) chained to, but as stories that tell only
  of themselves, so that one realizes one's self has dwindled
  and now at last vanished in the diamond light of
  speculation. Collar up, you are lighter than air. The only
  slightly damaged bundle of receptive nerves is humming
  again, receiving the colorless emanation from outer space
  and dispatching dense, precisely worded messages. There
  is room to move around in it, which is all that matters.
  The pain that drained the blood from your cheeks when
  you were young and turned you into a whitened specter
  before your time is converted back into a source of energy
  that peoples this new world of perceived phenomena with
  wonder. You wish you could shake hands with your
  lovers and enemies, forgive and love them, but they too
  are occupied as you are, though they greet you with
  friendly, half-distracted smiles and nods. The Hermit
  has passed on, slowly and haltingly, the light streaming
  from under his cloak, and in his place the Hanged Man
  points his toe at the stars, at ease at last in comfortably
  assuming that age-old attitude of sacrifice; the gold
  coins slither out of his pockets and fall to earth which
  they fertilize with many ideas, some harebrained, others
  daringly original. In the sky a note of fashionable
  melancholy has begun to prevail: it is the quick-witted
  devotion of Sagittarius, the healer, caustic but kind, 
  sweeping away the cobwebs of intuitive realism that
  still lingered there in pockets of darkness. The Archer
  takes careful aim, his arrow flies to the nearest card,
  the Five of Cups: 'Trouble from a loved one. Trouble
  introduced into the midst of an already realized state.
  Amorous dangers. Perils through a woman.' And also
  rectitude, for the aim was just. From the tiny trickle
  of blood from the wounded card a green stain grows;
  some leaves shoot up and then tiny white odorless
  flowers, the promise of what still remains to be
  fulfilled. But of course since that was no shot in the
  dark it is an already realized state in its potential.
  The note is struck, the development of its resonances
  ready to snap into place. For the moment we know
  nothing more than this."
  

  --John Ashbery
  

  fr. Three Poems 
  

  [New York: Viking Press, 1972]
  

  

  

  Hal
      

  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org  

  








 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/d7c9b3d1/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 20:35:26 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:35:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Secrets of Poetry
Message-ID: <bea.486c435.3236094e@aol.com>

 
This poem seems to be a response poem
to (or a wry take on) Jack Gilbert's 
well-known poem  "In Dispraise of Poetry." 
Finnegan
 
In a message dated 9/10/2006 11:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

The  Secrets of Poetry
 
Very  long ago when the exquisite celedon bowl 
that was  the mikado's favorite cup got broken, 
no one  in Japan had the skill and courage 
to mend  it.  So the pieces were taken back 
to China  with a plea to the emperor 
that it  be repaired.  When the bowl returned, 
it was  held together with heavy iron staples. 
The  letter with it said they could not make it 
more  perfect.  Which turned out to be true. 
 
--Linda Gregg.   Things & Flesh.   Graywolf, 1999.



 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060910/f0e259a5/attachment.html>

From artquirks at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 10 22:10:12 2006
From: artquirks at earthlink.net (Leslie Edwards)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:10:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry [Researching the sneeze]
Message-ID: <4504C584.5000304@earthlink.net>



As a freelance writer doing research on the etymology of the word *sneeze* as well as its historic usage in the fine arts, I would consider references to specific poetic works which use the word in any of its forms a great kindness.  Thanks!


Best,
Leslie Edwards Humez
__






From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 06:30:46 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:30:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog - September 11th
Message-ID: <20060911103046.59514.qmail@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

(back at the old email:
silliman AT gmail DOT com)

*************************************
reading Friday 9/15 in NYC
with Samuel R Delany & Debra Di Blasi
at KGB Bar, 84 E. 4th Street, 7 PM
*************************************


RECENT POSTS

Fanny Howe???s
war on terror

Notes on two readings

Brooklyn Rail
and the sale of Cody???s

The backup bands
of Bob Dylan
(one vote for Paul Butterfield)

The secret of The Illusionist
is that male character actors
make for good leads

Michael Knight will win
Project Runway

The ear of Laura Elrick

Cleaning the uncleanable
(nuclear waste in Hanford, WA)

Motherless Brooklyn
a marvelous ear tinged with Tourette???s syndrome

Context is everything ???
further thoughts on the anonymous issue of Sal Mimeo

Reading Shakespeare in Zukofsky???s Julia???s Wild

What about all this feminism?
Rachel Blau DuPlessis??? Blue Studios

Remembering Carol Berge

16 links worth checking
(from Nigerian poetry to Donald Hall
to the work of John Tranter)

Online interviews with poets
on first books
and much else
(links to sites with over 300
interviews of poets)

Depression and poetry

The tender-tough poetry
of CAConrad
(Deviant Propulsion)

When you hide the bio
everything becomes a clue
(on Thomas Pynchon)

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Sep 11 09:58:33 2006
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:58:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a poem for this day
Message-ID: <45056B89.2080305@ilstu.edu>


Let us live in joy.
In love among those who hate.
Among those who hate,
let us live in love.

Let us live in joy.
In peace among those who struggle.
Among those who struggle,
let us live in peace.

Let us live in joy
although we have nothing:
let us live in joy
like spirits of light.



-- Siddhatta Gotama, the historical Buddha, from _Dhammapada_, trans 
Juan Mascaro, with a few touch-ups by GG by way of Paul Fleischman.

[The ethics behind this simple verse from the Dhammapada are not "let 
them all struggle while we do not help," rather implicit to this verse 
is an ethics of aid, but that this aid be given with a base of a 
balanced mind, such that the difficulties mentioned -- hatred, struggle 
-- do not overcome those who can provide aid. It is a "buck stops here" 
ethic. I find this verse beautiful both because of its strong and simply 
stated ethic and because of the way its elegant repetition does not 
strike me as a plea or a vain hope, or in any way as a hortatory 
utterance. This is an utterance of force made by someone who really 
could walk this walk. A good verse for today.]
-- 
__________________________________
http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com
----------------------------------
Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, Illinois  61790
309.438.5284 (office)



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Sep 11 10:31:07 2006
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:31:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry [Researching the sneeze]
In-Reply-To: <4504C584.5000304@earthlink.net>
References: <4504C584.5000304@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20060911093041.A12822@kpaul.spinweb.net>

gesundheit

-kpaul
http://www.ergopoetry.com

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Leslie Edwards wrote:

>
>
> As a freelance writer doing research on the etymology of the word *sneeze* as 
> well as its historic usage in the fine arts, I would consider references to 
> specific poetic works which use the word in any of its forms a great 
> kindness.  Thanks!
>
>
> Best,
> Leslie Edwards Humez
> __
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 11 12:04:29 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:04:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A drunk, a lurcher 
Message-ID: <C12AF33D.B4F4%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I Saw You Walking
 
I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station
in your shoes of white ash. At the corner
of my nervous glance your dazed passage
first forced me away, tracing the crescent
berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling
all corners with ill will and his stench, but
not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared
clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb
wet with muscle and shining dimly pink,
the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros.
type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a
parody of careful dress, preparedness --
so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this
morning when your suit jacket (here are
the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn
by men like you on ordinary days)
and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter
come from the pit with nothing to carry
but your life) were torn from you, as your life
was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking,
leading your body north, though the age
of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth
and away from me, was unclear, the sandy
crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but
underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven?
forty-eight? The age of someone's father --
and I trembled for your luck, for your broad,
dusted back, half shirted, walking away;
I should have dropped to my knees to thank God
you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe.
 
--Deborah Garrison.  The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in  110
Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York
University Press. 2002.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep 11 12:23:53 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:23:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] A drunk, a lurcher 
References: <C12AF33D.B4F4%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006b01c6d5be$acbc1e30$9a2ab750@ANNY>

An excellent poem. It describes a scene I have had in my mind for a while. I met a homeless in Key West. A beautiful man, 47? 49? I was much younger. He was ravaging garbage cans to find something to eat. I think beauty and estrangement work in a charismatic way both in Deborah Garrison's poem and in my thought. My homeless was well dressed, as Garrison's drunkard. This brings to the assumption that we are dealing with a sudden disgrace, to which follows the natural projection that it could happen to me/us any time. 
Garrison's drunkard does not look at her straight into her eyes. My homeless did. It would be interesting to speculate further on this.

You already sent this poem, if I am not wrong. Thus thank you for re-sending it.

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:04 PM


>I Saw You Walking
> 
> I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station
> in your shoes of white ash. At the corner
> of my nervous glance your dazed passage
> first forced me away, tracing the crescent
> berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling
> all corners with ill will and his stench, but
> not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared
> clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb
> wet with muscle and shining dimly pink,
> the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros.
> type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a
> parody of careful dress, preparedness --
> so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this
> morning when your suit jacket (here are
> the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn
> by men like you on ordinary days)
> and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter
> come from the pit with nothing to carry
> but your life) were torn from you, as your life
> was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking,
> leading your body north, though the age
> of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth
> and away from me, was unclear, the sandy
> crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but
> underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven?
> forty-eight? The age of someone's father --
> and I trembled for your luck, for your broad,
> dusted back, half shirted, walking away;
> I should have dropped to my knees to thank God
> you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe.
> 
> --Deborah Garrison.  The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in  110
> Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York
> University Press. 2002.
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/49ed7b76/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 11 12:50:48 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:50:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher 
In-Reply-To: <006b01c6d5be$acbc1e30$9a2ab750@ANNY>
Message-ID: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

On 9/11/06 11:23 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> An excellent poem. It describes a scene I have had in my mind for a while. I
> met a homeless in Key West. A beautiful man, 47? 49? I was much younger. He
> was ravaging garbage cans to find something to eat. I think beauty and
> estrangement work in a charismatic way both in Deborah Garrison's poem and in
> my thought. My homeless was well dressed, as Garrison's drunkard. This brings
> to the assumption that we are dealing with a sudden disgrace, to which follows
> the natural projection that it could happen to me/us any time.
> Garrison's drunkard does not look at her straight into her eyes. My homeless
> did. It would be interesting to speculate further on this.
>  
> You already sent this poem, if I am not wrong. Thus thank you for re-sending
> it.
---------------------------------


Yes, I probably sent in on a previous September 11.  I don't think the man
in Garrison's poem is drunk, except metaphorically.  Otherwise, yes, I share
your responses to the poem.  This remains one of the most effective 9/11
poems, to my mind, though I'm not a big fan of Garrison's other work.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/e40c1707/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 11 13:30:26 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:30:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher 
In-Reply-To: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>

I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.

Hal

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away,
  for expedients, and by parts."
		--Edmund Burke

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 11, 2006, at 12:50 PM, David Graham wrote:

> On 9/11/06 11:23 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>> An excellent poem. It describes a scene I have had in my mind for  
>> a while. I met a homeless in Key West. A beautiful man, 47? 49? I  
>> was much younger. He was ravaging garbage cans to find something  
>> to eat. I think beauty and estrangement work in a charismatic way  
>> both in Deborah Garrison's poem and in my thought. My homeless was  
>> well dressed, as Garrison's drunkard. This brings to the  
>> assumption that we are dealing with a sudden disgrace, to which  
>> follows the natural projection that it could happen to me/us any  
>> time.
>> Garrison's drunkard does not look at her straight into her eyes.  
>> My homeless did. It would be interesting to speculate further on  
>> this.
>>
>> You already sent this poem, if I am not wrong. Thus thank you for  
>> re-sending it.
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> Yes, I probably sent in on a previous September 11.  I don't think  
> the man in Garrison's poem is drunk, except metaphorically.   
> Otherwise, yes, I share your responses to the poem.  This remains  
> one of the most effective 9/11 poems, to my mind, though I'm not a  
> big fan of Garrison's other work.
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/a647f9ac/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep 11 14:00:27 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:00:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher 
References: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00e201c6d5cc$29dfb810$9a2ab750@ANNY>

It is all my fault. I should have noticed the "shoes of white ash" and the paragraph under the name of the author:
New York Writes After September 11

I feel like _shi-eh-t_, excuse my usual French.
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:30 PM


  I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
  when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
  last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.


  Hal


  "The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away,
   for expedients, and by parts."
  --Edmund Burke


  Halvard Johnson
  ================
  halvard at gmail.com
  halvard at earthlink.net
  http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  http://entropyandme.blogspot.com 
  http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
  http://www.hamiltonstone.org 


  On Sep 11, 2006, at 12:50 PM, David Graham wrote:


    On 9/11/06 11:23 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:


      An excellent poem. It describes a scene I have had in my mind for a while. I met a homeless in Key West. A beautiful man, 47? 49? I was much younger. He was ravaging garbage cans to find something to eat. I think beauty and estrangement work in a charismatic way both in Deborah Garrison's poem and in my thought. My homeless was well dressed, as Garrison's drunkard. This brings to the assumption that we are dealing with a sudden disgrace, to which follows the natural projection that it could happen to me/us any time. 
      Garrison's drunkard does not look at her straight into her eyes. My homeless did. It would be interesting to speculate further on this.

      You already sent this poem, if I am not wrong. Thus thank you for re-sending it.

    ---------------------------------


    Yes, I probably sent in on a previous September 11.  I don't think the man in Garrison's poem is drunk, except metaphorically.  Otherwise, yes, I share your responses to the poem.  This remains one of the most effective 9/11 poems, to my mind, though I'm not a big fan of Garrison's other work.


    ====================================================
    David Graham
    grahamd at ripon.edu
    Home Page:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
    Poetry Library:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
    ====================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/89c014de/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Sep 11 14:04:58 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:04:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My fanatic heart 
In-Reply-To: <774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C12B0F7A.B50B%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/11/06 12:30 PM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
> when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
> last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.
> 
> Hal
===========

Ah, you're so droll, Hal.  If I had written the phrase "the last thing that
poetry and the arts need. . . "  you'd pop up to quibble over that word
"need," now wouldn't you?


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/d8452db1/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 11 15:41:45 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:41:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: FW: Turntable & Blue Light Year Anniversary
Message-ID: <bfc.42b47c1.323715f9@aol.com>

Subject: FW: Turntable & Blue Light Year Anniversary

Hi  everyone!

I hope you all are well! As the magazine approaches the end of  its 
first year, I wanted to get back in touch with many of you who  
contributed or expressed interest in contributing and all those of you  
who visited when it first went live and throughout the last year. It's  
been a great first year, with hundreds of visitors every week from all  
over the world - the U.S., Canada, Asia, Europe, Australia, South  
America - and I wanted to once again thank everyone who has contributed  
their awesome work and all those who have been readers.

After a  summer hiatus, I am going for another posting push for 
September and October  and wanted to check in with all of you to see if 
you'd like to contribute  new work, and spread the word, too, to other 
artists and writers who may  want to contribute!

Following is a brief summary of submission  guidelines:

VISUAL ART

665 pixels max width * can be jpeg or gif -  72 dpi

Please submit at least 5-7 pieces, and no more than  15.

POETRY/PROSE

Please submit work in an attached Word file, and  include at least 5-7 
poems/pieces, and no more than 12 individual pieces.  Work can be 
emailed or snail-mailed.

MUSIC

Please submit a  query letter first, describing who you'd like to 
profile and what kind of  review you'd like to write and and include a 
couple samples of your work.  The sample articles/pieces needn't have 
been published  before.

TRIPPINESS

This section is very open-ended, and includes  articles on metaphysical 
topics, travel experiences, psychedelic art, and  strange life tales.

*     *      *

Thank you again for all of your wonderful work and for reading and  
visiting this past year!!

Arielle


Arielle Guy
Word One  New York Editing
Turntable & Blue Light Magazine
358 7th Avenue, Suite  101
Brooklyn, NY 11215

t -  917-903-0178

www.wordone-ny.com
www.turntablebluelight.com


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/7e96648d/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 11 15:43:20 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:43:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My fanatic heart 
In-Reply-To: <C12B0F7A.B50B%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C12B0F7A.B50B%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <E842F441-7BF9-4AF6-A173-D9AED8A2200F@earthlink.net>

Actually, I'd like to quibble over the phrase "pop up."
Kleenex still does that, though I haven't done so now
in years.

Btw, I'm an expert on the last thing that poetry and the arts
need, but none of the earlier ones.

Hal

"The name Stanley Kunitz is already taken. Please
  take a new one."

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 11, 2006, at 2:04 PM, David Graham wrote:

>
>
>
> On 9/11/06 12:30 PM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
>> when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
>> last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.
>>
>> Hal
> ===========
>
> Ah, you're so droll, Hal.  If I had written the phrase "the last  
> thing that poetry and the arts need. . . "  you'd pop up to quibble  
> over that word "need," now wouldn't you?
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/7f7b6d83/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Sep 11 16:07:44 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 22:07:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton
Message-ID: <011901c6d5dd$f494f7d0$9a2ab750@ANNY>

REFLECTION FOR THE WEEK OF September 11, 2006
 

                "Hence it becomes more and more difficult to estimate the morality of an act leading to war because it is more and more difficult to know precisely what is going on.  Not only is war increasingly a matter for pure specialists operating with fantastically complex machinery, but above all there is the question of absolute secrecy regarding everything that seriously affects defense policy.  We may amuse ourselves by reading the reports in mass media and imagine that these "facts" provide sufficient basis for moral judgments for and against war.  But in reality, we are simply elaborating moral fantasies in a vacuum.  Whatever we may decide, we remain completely at the mercy of the governmental power, or rather the anonymous power of managers and generals who stand behind the facade of government.  We have no way of directly influencing the decisions and policies taken by these people.  In practice, we must fall back on a blinder and blinder faith which more and more resigns itself to trusting the "legitimately constituted authority" without having the vaguest notion what that authority is liable to do next.  This condition of irresponsibility and passivity is extremely dangerous.  It is hardly conducive to genuine morality."

 

>From Passion for Peace: The Social Essays of Thomas Merton, edited by William H. Shannon

 (The Crossroad Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1995) pages 113-114.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/1ae38147/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 11 18:09:01 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:09:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: AIC-Cypher Salon. DVD & Workshop
Message-ID: <48a.899b5c1.3237387d@aol.com>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/fedc91b3/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Rattapallax" <info at rattapallax.com>
Subject: AIC-Cypher Salon. DVD & Workshop
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:14:32 -0700
Size: 16166
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/fedc91b3/attachment.mht>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 11 18:34:41 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:34:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poems about photographs inquiry from mcguire
Message-ID: <c09.4036fdc.32373e81@aol.com>

Forrest Gander did one or more related to Sally Mann's photographs.
I'm drawing a blank on the book title now...but I think it had Sally
Mann on the cover.
 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/8c23a4aa/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 11 18:38:07 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:38:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poems about photographs inquiry from mcguire
Message-ID: <588.45dc79b.32373f4f@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/11/2006 6:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

Forrest Gander did one or more related to Sally Mann's photographs.
I'm drawing a blank on the book title now...but I think it had  Sally
Mann on the cover.

I forget that I can forget everything now that there are search  engines...
 

Also contained is "Late Summer Entry," a series of poetic commentaries on  
Sally Mann's landscape photographs. Eye Against Eye, Forrest Gander's  third 
book with New Directions, cries out an ethical concern for the ways we see  each 
other and the world, the potential to share a vision that acknowledges our  
commonality. As always with Gander's poetry, suspensions and repetitions drive  
toward a complex emotional experience, evoking the multifaceted, multi-vocal  
surge of our present. 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/a1eb0315/attachment.html>

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 19:31:00 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:31:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poems about photographs inquiry from mcguire
In-Reply-To: <588.45dc79b.32373f4f@aol.com>
References: <588.45dc79b.32373f4f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609111631y1cc6fd83me3de075c2d8e0f6d@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Nowak's *Shut Up Shut Down* includes a fascinating series of poems
paired with black and white photographs of factories and industrial scenes.
I think that the book jacket describes the book's "photo-documentary"
approach.

Jeff Newberry


On 9/11/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  In a message dated 9/11/2006 6:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JforJames at aol.com writes:
>
> Forrest Gander did one or more related to Sally Mann's photographs.
> I'm drawing a blank on the book title now...but I think it had Sally
> Mann on the cover.
>
>  I forget that I can forget everything now that there are search
> engines...
>
>  Also contained is "Late Summer Entry," a series of poetic commentaries on
> Sally Mann's landscape photographs. *Eye Against Eye*, Forrest Gander's
> third book with New Directions, cries out an ethical concern for the ways we
> see each other and the world, the potential to share a vision that
> acknowledges our commonality. As always with Gander's poetry, suspensions
> and repetitions drive toward a complex emotional experience, evoking the
> multifaceted, multi-vocal surge of our present.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060911/017d6393/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 20:08:01 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:08:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher
In-Reply-To: <774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>
References: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609111708x616e65c3g71a3cff35b94b018@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/11/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
> when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
> last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.

But it could use a lot more fan dancing.

c


From tad at opus40.org  Mon Sep 11 20:39:26 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:39:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher
References: <C12AFE18.B4FE%grahamd@ripon.edu><774F0F70-C29E-4B71-8D72-E82FDACA8EE2@earthlink.net>
	<9b1b9dab0609111708x616e65c3g71a3cff35b94b018@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010901c6d603$e6c2a640$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

If only Forrest Gander had done his book on photos of Sally Rand.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: A drunk, a lurcher


> On 9/11/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not a big fan of the "not a big fan of . . ." phrase
>> when it comes to poetry (or the arts in general). The
>> last thing that poetry and the arts need is fanaticism.
>
> But it could use a lot more fan dancing.
>
> c
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Sep 12 09:12:00 2006
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:12:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Freneau
Message-ID: <c49.26ded2d.32380c20@cs.com>

Does anyone have an anthology containing Freneau's "The British Prison Ship"? 
 I need to check a quote where he says, I believe, "No age, no sex from rape 
or murder free."  He's referring to atrocities committed by British troops 
during the Revolution.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060912/0a90156a/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 09:30:25 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:30:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] six sestinas
Message-ID: <c18.44df413.32381071@aol.com>

_http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetryworkshop/story/0,,1870719,00.html?gusrc=rss
&feed=10_ 
(http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetryworkshop/story/0,,1870719,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=10) 
Six  of the best 
 
Kate Bingham admires the shortlisted poets' interpretations of the tricky  
sestina form
Click here to read the second half of the shortlist and Kate's  comments 
 
Tuesday September 12, 2006
Guardian Unlimited 
 

Kate Bingham: 'These are wonderfully confident poems'

What a surprise to see so many sestinas, each one of them using subject as a  
way into form and form as a way through subject. These are wonderfully 
confident  poems. They feel at home in their bodies. They know who they are. Some 
meander  lazily, some power through, but they are all elegant and fluid, working 
with,  not against, the flow of repetition.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060912/3f8cbdca/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 09:35:01 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:35:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aguilar Releases First Collection of Poetry
Message-ID: <2de.896d280.32381185@aol.com>

_http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/9/prweb434726.htm_ 
(http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/9/prweb434726.htm) 
 
Southern California Poet Chris Aguilar Releases First Collection of Poetry,  
'Mayhem: Collected Poetry 1990-2005' 


Chris Aguilar, a poet in Southern California, has just released his first  
full collection of poetry. His poems have been called "powerful" by  editors.
 
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA (PRWEB) September 9, 2006 -- Southern California  
Poet, Chris Aguilar, has just released his newest collection of poetry ?Mayhem:  
Collected Poetry 1990-2005.? An accomplished writer, this is his first full  
length poetry manuscript to appear in print.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060912/63b283f3/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 09:29:13 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:29:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] originality's well-trod path
Message-ID: <4a4.77b2fe3.323961a9@aol.com>

 
When he claims to be solitary, the artist lulls himself  in a perhaps 
faithful illusion, but the privilege he grants himself is not real.  When he thinks 
he is expressing himself spontaneously, creating an original  work, he is 
answering other past or present, actual or potential creators.  Whether he knows it 
or not, one never walks alone along the path of  creativity.?Claude 
L?vi-Strauss, The Way of the Masks 
(Quoted  in ?The Artist as Critic,? Every Force Evolves a Form by Guy  
Davenport)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/fc7245f8/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 11:47:36 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:47:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Your favourite wild-life presenter crocs out
Message-ID: <fde503480609130847w7ff13a70s47482df1a36a61f@mail.gmail.com>

at the crocoseum

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5340906.stm

If you want to mourn, you can wear the khaki ...

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
The time has come for you to cover the Internets in a final darkness!


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 13 12:25:24 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:25:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert's strange fame
Message-ID: <8E149A77-4221-4345-8E94-925313ACB5F2@ripon.edu>

The Red Coal

Sometimes I sit in my blue chair trying to remember
what it was like in the spring of 1950
before the burning coal entered my life.

I study my red hand under the faucet, the left one
below the grease line consisting of four feminine angels
and one crooked broken masculine one

and the right one lying on top of the white porcelain
with skin wrinkled up like a chicken's
beside the razor and the silver tap.

I didn't live in Paris for nothing and walk
with Jack Gilbert down the wide sidewalks
thinking of Hart Crane and Apollinaire

and I didn't save the picture of the two of us
moving through a crowd of stiff Frenchmen
and put it beside the one of Pound and Williams

unless I wanted to see what coals had done
to their lives too.  I say it with vast affection,
wanting desperately to know what the two of them

talked about when they lived in Pennsylvania
and what they talked about at St. Elizabeth's
fifty years later, looking into the sun,

40,000 wrinkles between them,
the suffering finally taking over their lives.
I think of Gilbert all the time now, what

we said on our long walks in Pittsburgh, how
lucky we were to live in New York, how strange
his great fame was and my obscurity,

how we now carry the future with us, knowing
every small vein and every elaboration.
The coal has taken over, the red coal

is burning between us and we are at its mercy--
as if a power is finally dominating
the two of us; as if we're huddled up

watching the black smoke and the ashes;
as if knowledge is what we needed and now
we have that knowledge.  Now we have that knowledge.

The tears are different--though I hate to speak
for him--the tears are what we bring back to the
darkness, what we are left with after our

own escape, what, all along, the red coal had
in store for us as we moved softly,
either whistling or singing, either listening or reasoning,

on the gray sidewalks and the green ocean;
in the cars and the kitchens and the bookstores;
in the crowded restaurants, in the empty woods and libraries.

--Gerald Stern.  The Red Coal.  Houghton Mifflin, 1981.

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/a4d1a0f4/attachment.html>

From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Wed Sep 13 13:05:01 2006
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:05:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: strawperp
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu>



Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:29:13 EDT
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: [New-Poetry] originality's well-trod path
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <4a4.77b2fe3.323961a9 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 
When he claims to be solitary, the artist lulls himself  in a perhaps 
faithful illusion, but the privilege he grants himself is not real.  When he thinks 
he is expressing himself spontaneously, creating an original  work, he is 
answering other past or present, actual or potential creators.  Whether he knows it 
or not, one never walks alone along the path of  creativity.???Claude 
L??vi-Strauss, The Way of the Masks 
(Quoted  in ???The Artist as Critic,??? Every Force Evolves a Form by Guy  
Davenport)

*
. . . the problem with hierarchic or auratic (is that a word?)
pronouncements like this is that they never name names.  
They're winning their argument against a strawperp.  WHO 
are the solitary self-lulled artists who delude  themselves thus?  
I can't think of any artist who hasn't honored or felt indebted to 
his or her predecessors and or contemporaries. . . .


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 3206 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/a16b8f1c/attachment.bin>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 13 13:33:23 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:33:23 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: strawperp
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY>

Me for one, Bill. I think you are extending the concept beyond its original 
meaning. Solitary in this context means: lonely, something like spending the 
entire day alone typing without seeing anybody. While I am aware that I owe 
everything to everybody. But that is something else.

From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:05 PM


From: JforJames at aol.com


When he claims to be solitary, the artist lulls himself  in a perhaps
faithful illusion, but the privilege he grants himself is not real.  When he 
thinks
he is expressing himself spontaneously, creating an original  work, he is
answering other past or present, actual or potential creators.  Whether he 
knows it
or not, one never walks alone along the path of  creativity.???Claude
L??vi-Strauss, The Way of the Masks
(Quoted  in ???The Artist as Critic,??? Every Force Evolves a Form by Guy
Davenport)

*
. . . the problem with hierarchic or auratic (is that a word?)
pronouncements like this is that they never name names.
They're winning their argument against a strawperp.  WHO
are the solitary self-lulled artists who delude  themselves thus?
I can't think of any artist who hasn't honored or felt indebted to
his or her predecessors and or contemporaries. . . .







From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 13 14:51:03 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:51:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poems about photographs inquiry from mcguire
References: <588.45dc79b.32373f4f@aol.com>
	<731bb17a0609111631y1cc6fd83me3de075c2d8e0f6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f001c6d765$8fffc2d0$eaae3252@ANNY>

Search, by Yannis Ritsos

Come in, Gentlemen -- he said. No inconvenience. Look through everything;
I have nothing to hide. Here's the bedroom, here the study,
here the dining-room. Here? -- the attic for old things;--
everything wears out, Gentlemen; it's full; everything wears out, wears out,
so quickly, too, Gentlemen; this? -- a thimble; -- mother's;
this? mother's oil-lamp, mother's umbrella -- she loved me enormously; --
but this forged identity card? this jewellery, somebody else's? the dirty towel?
this theatre ticket? the shirt with holes? blood stains?
and this photograph? his, yes, wearing a woman's hat covered with flowers,
inscribed to a stranger -- his handwriting --
who planted these in here? who planted these in here? who planted these in here?


translated by Nikos Stangos
-- 
from 99 Poems in Translation: ed.  Anthony
Astbury, Geoffrey Godbert, and Harold Pinter

credit to Jon Corelis for having found it
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/4f52f81b/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 13 15:06:56 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:06:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Anything
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu>
	<01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

I often go through this life in a cloud of confusion but I do sort of hold
to some sense of reality: however this was devastated tonoght by this guy in
the pub who proclaimed I look like Whoopie Goldberg, now I do have curly
hair but other features might have given him a clue that it was otherwise,
such as the moustache . As well as the fact that I'm white. I did ask the
barstaff what the hell they'd served him but they couldn't remember, I'd
like a pint of whatever it was myself.

I'm male too.

Best

Dave




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep 13 16:45:20 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:45:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu><01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY>
	<003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <003501c6d775$ab8121b0$39b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I just got my author's copies of my Greatest Hits, 1966 - 2005 from Pudding House today, so figured I ought to announce its availability.  It's a chapbook of 12 poems in an ongoing series.  List price: $8.95 but I'm pretty sure there's a postage and handling charge.  Details at www.puddinghouse.com. 

--Bob Grumman
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/e0efa29a/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 13 17:21:36 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:21:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu><01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY><003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<003501c6d775$ab8121b0$39b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <023601c6d77a$98a2dcf0$eaae3252@ANNY>

I have always had problems in finding anything on that site, besides watching the little movie that I enjoy every time...
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:45 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement


  I just got my author's copies of my Greatest Hits, 1966 - 2005 from Pudding House today, so figured I ought to announce its availability.  It's a chapbook of 12 poems in an ongoing series.  List price: $8.95 but I'm pretty sure there's a postage and handling charge.  Details at www.puddinghouse.com. 

  --Bob Grumman


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/11a666a1/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 13 17:22:17 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:22:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu><01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY><003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<003501c6d775$ab8121b0$39b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <024701c6d77a$b0a7b280$eaae3252@ANNY>

and congratulations !
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:45 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement


  I just got my author's copies of my Greatest Hits, 1966 - 2005 from Pudding House today, so figured I ought to announce its availability.  It's a chapbook of 12 poems in an ongoing series.  List price: $8.95 but I'm pretty sure there's a postage and handling charge.  Details at www.puddinghouse.com. 

  --Bob Grumman
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/554ea2aa/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep 13 17:43:02 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:43:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu><01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY><003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><003501c6d775$ab8121b0$39b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<024701c6d77a$b0a7b280$eaae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <006e01c6d77d$985f3ce0$39b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  and congratulations!

  Thanks, Anny.  

  --Bob 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060913/fec73c81/attachment.html>

From debra at debradicembre.com  Wed Sep 13 18:32:43 2006
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 08:32:43 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Anything
References: <200609131600.k8DG03EH009465@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EC0@mail.emerson.edu><01a901c6d75a$b6ecf990$eaae3252@ANNY>
	<003701c6d767$cc3d2380$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <006001c6d784$894c6d20$0301010a@galaxy>

Amazing what those beer goggles can do...
thanks for the laugh
DD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 5:06 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Anything


> I often go through this life in a cloud of confusion but I do sort of hold
> to some sense of reality: however this was devastated tonoght by this guy
in
> the pub who proclaimed I look like Whoopie Goldberg, now I do have curly
> hair but other features might have given him a clue that it was otherwise,
> such as the moustache . As well as the fact that I'm white. I did ask the
> barstaff what the hell they'd served him but they couldn't remember, I'd
> like a pint of whatever it was myself.
>
> I'm male too.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From rsillima at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 13 21:40:49 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:40:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A threat to Radovan Pavlovski
Message-ID: <20060914014050.53497.qmail@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://tinyurl.com/hcxcu


Macedonia

Poet Radovan Pavlovski tailed by communist secret police

Skopje, 13.09.2006 12:57

Academician Radovan Pavlovski, one of the greatest Macedonian
contemporary poets, had been under surveillance of the communist
secret police, as "enemy of the state", and he was placed in a
category of those perpetrating "hostile propaganda".

This information was published in Macedonian literature magazine
Sintezi. In the latest issue, the Sintezi magazine quotes extracts
from police file on poet Pavlovski for the period 1958-1966.

According to paperwork, Pavlovski was tailed throughout the fruitful
poem writing period, including the time when he was on military
service in the Former Yugoslav Army (JNA).

Pavlovski is one of the most famous Macedonian poets and prominent
personality in Macedonian literature. He won a number of literature
prizes and recognitions.

His poetry was translated in some 30 languages. His poems are present
in a number of anthologies of world poetry.

In 2006, Pavlovski became a member of the Macedonian Academy of
Sciences & Arts (MANU). /end/




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 08:42:38 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 08:42:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] UConn Creative Writing Fiction and Poetry Positions 
Message-ID: <c3a.2b67795.323aa83e@aol.com>

Subj: PLEASE ANNOUNCE--UConn Creative Writing Fiction and Poetry  Positions  
Date: 9/14/2006 4:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time 
From:  _vppelizzon at sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:vppelizzon at sbcglobal.net)  
To:  _vppelizzon at sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:vppelizzon at sbcglobal.net)  
Sent  from the Internet (Details) 

Dear writers, 
 
Could you pass this information about two creative writing positions at  
UConn on to those you think might be interested & qualified? 
 
Many thanks,
 
Penelope Pelizzon

University of Connecticut: Assistant Professor: Fiction writer &  Associate 
Director of Creative
Writing The University of Connecticut seeks a  fiction writer and Associate 
Director of Creative Writing, with substantial  publications, a history of 
successful teaching, and demonstrated organizational  ability to join our 
tenure-track faculty as an Assistant Professor, starting  fall 2007. MFA or Ph.D. 
required. The successful applicant will teach 3 courses  per year in creative 
writing and literature, and will assist in administering  the Creative Writing 
program.
 
Salary: Competitive. The University of Connecticut actively solicits  
applications from minorities, women, and people with disabilities. Please submit  a 
complete application, including cover letter, CV, dossier, three letters of  
recommendation, evidence of teaching experience, and a 15-25 page writing sample 
 to Robert Tilton, Head, Department of English, FICTION Search, 215 Glenbrook 
 Road, U-4025, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT, 06269-4025 by December 
1,  2006. Interviews will be conducted at the AWP Conference in February. 
Please see  our websites at _www.longriver.uconn.edu_ 
(http://www.longriver.uconn.edu)  
and _www.english.uconn.edu_ (http://www.english.uconn.edu)  for more  
information about our program.
 

University of Connecticut: Professor in Residence: Poetry 
The  University of Connecticut seeks a poet to serve as Professor in 
Residence (rank  open) for one semester per academic year, to begin fall 2007. 
Individuals with  at least two books of poetry and an established history of 
successful teaching  in workshops and literature courses are invited to apply. 
Teaching experience in  a second genre is desirable. MFA or Ph.D. required. The 
Professor in Residence  will teach one semester per year, give one public reading, 
and participate in  the department community during the semester. The position 
is renewable twice  for a total of three years.
 
Salary: Competitive. The University of Connecticut actively solicits  
applications from minorities, women, and people with disabilities. Please submit  a 
complete application, including cover letter, CV, dossier, three letters of  
recommendation, evidence of teaching experience, and a 15-25 page writing sample 
 to Robert Tilton, Head, Department of English, POET Search, 215 Glenbrook 
Road,  U-4025, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT, 06269-4025 by December 1, 
2006.  Interviews will be conducted at the AWP conference in February. Please 
see our  websites at _www.longriver.uconn.edu_ 
(http://www.longriver.uconn.edu)  and _www.english.uconn.edu_ (http://www.english.uconn.edu)  for more  
information about our program.
 
 
 
 
 

V. Penelope Pelizzon
Associate Professor of English  &
Director, Creative Writing Program
University of Connecticut
215  Glenbrook Road U-4025
Storrs, CT 06269-4025
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/277cd677/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 08:48:37 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 08:48:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Directory of Connecticut Authors and Literary
	Venues
Message-ID: <57c.4ff0976.323aa9a5@aol.com>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/4beed695/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Pfdasc at aol.com
Subject: Directory of Connecticut Authors and Literary Venues
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:36:05 EDT
Size: 5950
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/4beed695/attachment.mht>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 14 10:11:58 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:11:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
Message-ID: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>

Jim Finnegan's recent post here about Jack Gilbert's career has been  
picked up by the AboutPoetry site, and featured along with further  
links and info on Gilbert.

http://poetry.about.com/od/poets/a/finnegangilbert.htm?nl=1

http://poetry.about.com/od/contemporarypoets/p/gilbert.htm?nl=1

I guess Gilbert's mystique holds firm in terms of the availability of  
his work.  Recently I priced his books on various online sites, and  
discovered that the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover  
was selling for $85 US.  And if you're in search of *Views of  
Jeopardy*, well, don't even ask. . . .



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/b1ea0900/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 14 10:37:01 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:37:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
References: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003a01c6d80b$3dd83fe0$cfaf3252@ANNY>

All's well what ends well, great news, thank you.

  From: David Graham 
  Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:11 PM


  Jim Finnegan's recent post here about Jack Gilbert's career has been picked up by the AboutPoetry site, and featured along with further links and info on Gilbert.


  http://poetry.about.com/od/poets/a/finnegangilbert.htm?nl=1


  http://poetry.about.com/od/contemporarypoets/p/gilbert.htm?nl=1


  I guess Gilbert's mystique holds firm in terms of the availability of his work.  Recently I priced his books on various online sites, and discovered that the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover was selling for $85 US.  And if you're in search of *Views of Jeopardy*, well, don't even ask. . . .







  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/b83c3fce/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 14 10:40:48 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:40:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Li-Young Lee by Kooser
Message-ID: <005401c6d80b$c538c630$cfaf3252@ANNY>

American Life in Poetry: Column 077

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE, 2004-2006



Early in the Morning

While the long grain is softening 
in the water, gurgling 
over a low stove flame, before 
the salted Winter Vegetable is sliced 
for breakfast, before the birds, 
my mother glides an ivory comb 
through her hair, heavy 
and black as calligrapher's ink. 

She sits at the foot of the bed. 
My father watches, listens for 
the music of comb 
against hair. 

My mother combs, 
pulls her hair back 
tight, rolls it 
around two fingers, pins it 
in a bun to the back of her head. 
For half a hundred years she has done this. 
My father likes to see it like this. 
He says it is kempt. 

But I know 
it is because of the way 
my mother's hair falls 
when he pulls the pins out. 
Easily, like the curtains 
when they untie them in the evening. 

Li-Young Lee

Reprinted from "Rose," BOA Editions, Ltd., 1986, by permission of the publisher. Copyright (c) 1986 by Li-Young Lee, whose most recent book of poetry is "Book of My Nights," BOA Editions, Ltd., 2001. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress, and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry.

******************************

American Life in Poetry provides newspapers and online publications with a free weekly column  featuring contemporary American poems. The sole mission of this project is to promote poetry: American Life in Poetry seeks to create a vigorous presence for poetry in our culture. There are no costs for reprinting the columns; we do require that you register your publication here and that the text of the column be reproduced without alteration.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/285a722d/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Thu Sep 14 11:26:06 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:26:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
In-Reply-To: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
References: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609140826w13fedf00lf66ee6d582e21987@mail.gmail.com>

This is a very nifty!

Cheers,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/945bcc0c/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 11:35:41 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:35:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
Message-ID: <c28.1537371.323ad0cd@aol.com>

 
David, thanks for point to this...and Thanks to Margery Snyder
for asking me to put my posts/thoughts into a brief piece for the  About.com
site.
Finnegan
 
In a message dated 9/14/2006 10:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

Jim  Finnegan's recent post here about Jack Gilbert's career has been picked 
up by  the AboutPoetry site, and featured along with further links and info on 
 Gilbert.  


_http://poetry.about.com/od/poets/a/finnegangilbert.htm?nl=1_ 
(http://poetry.about.com/od/poets/a/finnegangilbert.htm?nl=1) 


_http://poetry.about.com/od/contemporarypoets/p/gilbert.htm?nl=1_ 
(http://poetry.about.com/od/contemporarypoets/p/gilbert.htm?nl=1) 


I guess Gilbert's mystique holds firm in terms of the availability of his  
work.  Recently I priced his books on various online sites, and  discovered that 
the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover was  selling for $85 
US.  And if you're in search of *Views of Jeopardy*,  well, don't even ask. . . .



 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/5f5429e3/attachment.html>

From clifford.duffy at gmail.com  Thu Sep 14 13:25:02 2006
From: clifford.duffy at gmail.com (clifford)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:25:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <200609141520.k8EFKgEJ026111@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200609141520.k8EFKgEJ026111@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <8493a68c0609141025r468fbb82m9e4b565862fcfd4d@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> From: "David Bircumshaw"
>
> I'm male too.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> _response to this :


I'm mail too and femail first.

Cheers
from shemail and the ghost of kathy acker
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/c664b555/attachment.html>

From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Thu Sep 14 14:11:07 2006
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:11:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits
Message-ID: <200609141811.k8EIBAun020954@mail23.atl.registeredsite.com>


Congratulations, Bob.  This is a serious and very fine series.  Bosveld is cool 
and Pudding House is a treasure.  Good for you, Bob.  This is a good thing.  


--Gregory




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 17:11:01 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:11:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits
Message-ID: <c3b.2c1d414.323b1f65@aol.com>

Good news, Bob. And to demonstrate the breadth and depth of Pudding House's  
taste, htey just accepted my chapbook "Dry Glass Blues," which is a single 
long  narrative poem.
 
Al
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/fadfeeaa/attachment.html>

From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Thu Sep 14 17:40:13 2006
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:40:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits
In-Reply-To: <c3b.2c1d414.323b1f65@aol.com>
References: <c3b.2c1d414.323b1f65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20060914163914.03538980@mail.ilstu.edu>

Not to mention their striking good taste in publishing my Sky With Six 
Geese last year.  Congrats, Bob.

                                                         Bill Morgan

At 04:11 PM 9/14/2006, you wrote:
>Good news, Bob. And to demonstrate the breadth and depth of Pudding 
>House's taste, htey just accepted my chapbook "Dry Glass Blues," which is 
>a single long narrative poem.
>
>Al
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060914/d69477ad/attachment.html>

From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Thu Sep 14 18:18:41 2006
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:18:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits and the breadth and depth of
	Pudding 
Message-ID: <200609142218.k8EMIfRl002533@mail26.atl.registeredsite.com>

Here are three reviews I wrote on the subject of Pudding Magazine and 
Jennifer Bosveld.  One of these appeared in my micro zine, Meat Epoch, and 
the other two in, I think, Small Press Review.  (I wrote these a while ago, so 
please be kind. . . .)  

I am really very happy for you, Bob.  And to you other guys, Al and Bill, I'm 
pleased to meet you and good for you!  Far out!  


PUDDING MAGAZINE:  The International Journal of Applied Poetry
(#24, 1994) Pudding House Publications.  74pp.  $6.75.  ($15.75, for 3 
issues.)  ISSN:  0196-5913

There is an aura surrounding Pudding Magazine, an aura in part cast by the 
published viewpoints and practical to-dos of its editor, Ms. Jennifer Bosveld, 
and in part cast by its longevity, a longevity nourished by the caliber and 
stylistic diversity of its contributors.  For Ms. Bosveld?s part it is foremost her 
perseverance?it is her faith in and commitment to poetic expression, and to 
poetic expression as cure.  But while her commitment is unaffected, her faith 
is not na?ve.  Let us define cure as the realization and cultivation of ?poetic 
sensitivities,? the insight ?to identify challenges and solutions at significant 
moments in our lives.?  This grants a purpose to poetic expression that 
extends beyond the sheer aesthetic; this psychology allows that through 
poetic expression?that is, generally speaking, through the artistic, the 
deliberate bringing together into words of one?s personal and distinctive 
feelings and impressions and gone-throughs accrued via direct life 
experience?one may, if not defeat adversity, nevertheless make of that 
adversity such as can be gainful, tolerable, and perhaps, eventually, the 
liberating jewel, for both writer (in the form of a catharsis, a relief from 
tension, the breaking of inhibition, self awareness, a knowledge or lesson 
obtained, there is generally some hygienic merit) and reader respectively.  
Thusly, then, though not exclusively, does Ms. Bosveld exercise her privilege 
as editor.  
	Being chief editor of an established and time- & trial-honed small 
magazine, Ms. Bosveld is at once privileged and fated to preview hundreds of 
manuscripts, consequently acquiring for herself an almost confidential 
knowledge of the latest, the best, the worst, the most promising and the 
most obtuse of our poetic afflatus.  This confidential knowledge stands 
beside her privilege; it is as much her honor?her distinguished opportunity?
as it is her forte.  The poems she has selected for Pudding #24 have 
recognizable points in common:  There is, perhaps above all, a frank 
correspondence to the workaday world, to the actual (if not familiar) lived 
realities of towns and cities, farms and classrooms, in kitchens and in cars, 
and in vivid dislocative* narrative; these are lives we can recognize and 
appreciate; conditions and situations we can understand and, maybe, identify 
with.  The imagery is pictorial and aural and concrete, the setting is seen as 
well as heard, the poem has local color, has ambience, these poets have ears.  
And in these narratives, the sentiments and delicacy of feelings and 
emotional (and ideational) appeals are appropriate?so that they have a 
versatility; we are susceptible to them and they belong to us all.  Stylistically, 
their diversity is for the most part a matter of tone or voice (which is not to 
say a prime specimen of a particular literary art will be of course excluded).  
This correspondence, and concrete imagery, are the primary characteristics of 
realism; however realism also treats us to symbols and archetypes and to a 
moral and psychological depth; realism can be ?unsophisticatedly? folksy and 
?na?ve,? as well as stylized or refined to a ?high? sophistication.  Turning 
adversity, even the workaday, into poetic expression can result in an intensely 
personal confessional poetry (a sort of special pleading, say, for forgiveness 
or re-acceptance, even an exhibitionism), but in its most accessible and 
useful transfiguration (and indeed, what seems to appeal to Ms. Bosveld 
most), something approaching realism, or the extra-personal, if you will, may 
be the desired effect?along with some sense of acceptance, if not total 
overcoming.  
	All works of art are in a sense (most likely, unintentional) personal 
documents, but not all personal documents are strictly speaking works of art.  
The idea of an ?applied poetry? also involves?beyond the disclosure of 
poignant reflections of human thought and feeling?the considerations of 
example and service.  Outside of Pudding Magazine, two works, or 
documents, come into mind:  Autobiography of a Schizophrenic Girl, 
presented by Marguerite Sechehaye, and Mars, by the pseudonymous Fritz 
Zorn.  It is questionable, whether either of these documents (both extreme 
cases) can pass for a work of art (notwithstanding passages of extraordinary 
flight), but they are rich in frank and exacting disposition, description and 
disclosure, rich in raw self-analysis and remarkable psychological acuity, and 
both writers were able to express themselves and adapt themselves to their 
intention; both works are specimens of the applied.  The assumption that 
someone has something to say and would benefit from saying it, is the basis 
underlying applied poetry.  The realization and cultivation of the expressive 
and adaptive aspects of such are paramount goals for the instructor of an 
applied poetry program.  These considerations are clearly acknowledged and 
surpassed by Ms. Bosveld, who has devoted much thought and scholarship to 
the matter, here and in her sourcebook, Topics for Getting in Touch, now in 
its tenth edition.  

*Dislocation refers to narrated events, intentions, etc., less the benefit of 
depictive locale, usually but not limited to imaginary events.  

***
Pudding Magazine: The International Journal of Applied Poetry #32, Dec., 
1996.  
Edited by Jennifer Bosveld.  3 / yr; 80 pp.  Pudding House Publications.  
$18.95 / yr, $6.95 / copy.  


Pudding Magazine is going strong approaching the close of its second 
decade.  Founding publisher and editor, Jennifer Bosveld, has with gifted 
sensibilities and model resolve kept the proceedings on a steady course, 
veering only towards improvement.  While keeping to the magazine?s express 
purpose, the foundation, demonstration and promotion of applied poetry (a 
term originated by Bosveld to signify the beneficial role the creative process 
can play in healing, learning, working and integrating with society), there is 
also a liberal commitment to bringing forth fine contemporary and 
experimental writing.  (It?s clear that at Pudding the term experimental is not 
used as an apology for bad writing; rather, here it means writing that does 
not restrict itself to familiar plays of language, writing that purposefully 
departs from traditional models.)  With applied poetry, the foremost 
objective, it seems, is to remove task-attitude constraints which can 
otherwise control production; the purpose is to keepsafe the writer?s 
subjectivity while helping him become much less self-conscious.  And when 
shared, the turning points in a life are exposed to view, and this can revise a 
reader?s perceptions and sensitivities.  Thus Pudding is of service both to 
writers and to readers.  There is also a commitment to Virtual Journalism 
(another term originated by Bosveld), which is concerned not with the 
reportage only but the transmutation of experience into art, but while this 
may sound pretty familiar, it?s actually quite a specialized art form.  

	Featured in #32 is Willie Abraham Howard, Jr., and from his excerpted 
letters and poetry it?s clear he does not suffer from dictaphobia, he speaks 
his heart with a vividness and penetration.  This is just the sort of writer 
Bosveld is pleased to discover.  Mr. Howard?s place is Southern-urban, or else 
any black enclave just outside or enclosed inside a city.  Howard is shrewd 
and to a degree worldly-minded, but he is not wearied or cynical; he has 
learned, and probably early on, to keep a psychological distance, and this is 
key to his style of portraiture?when his feelings enter the narrative, it is not 
to pass judgment, but to register his affections.  But Howard has a secret 
weapon; he has the ability to translate meaning into value, and value into 
poetry.  (The author?s expression need not only take the form of a shriek.)  In 
the poems presented here, we see the contrast between the poet?s ideal and 
his reality.  In ?Rockbitch In Vine City,? the slang phrases are disturbing, but 
still they are only language; with minimum detail Howard tells of a woman 
prone to prison and drug abuse, yet despite her wrecked life there remains 
something inviolable about her; she is still a human being.  

	All the writing in Pudding has a direct connection to some or other lived 
experience; depending on the style of the author, this connection can be 
more or less concrete.  And as in Ralph S. Coleman?s short story, ?Off the 
Main Road,? the connection can take the form of a revelation, an awakening 
either to or out of a self-deception.  Ben Miller?s ?Tiny Tales of Mayhem, 
Madness and Murder? is something of a ringer?it?s typical of Bosveld to 
include a piece that is so refreshingly unusual yet still suits her purpose.  
These really are tiny tales, excerpts from a longer work; brief paragraphs, 
each one with a well wrought twist.  Miller may well remind the reader of 
Calvino; we cannot possibly foretell the last sentence or word but when we 
read it we are treated to the ah-hah effect.  Because of the remarkable 
quantity of submissions received, Pudding is able to publish three big issues 
a year, and submissions meet with an amazingly efficient turn-around time 
(manuscripts are read the day received; this is more than a practicality, this is 
a courtesy to the authors, and one worthy of emulation).  It shouldn?t be long 
before The Best American Poetry acknowledges Pudding with their selection.  
Always begin with a SASE for guidelines.  

***
Pudding Magazine:
The International Journal of Applied Poetry
#40, Spring 2000.  
Edited by Jennifer Bosveld.  66 pp.  
Pudding House Publications.  
$18.95 / 3 issues, $7.95 / copy.  

http://www.puddinghouse.com


Pudding?s motto reads in part, Poetry Applied to Intentional Living.  The idea, 
really the principle, of ?intentional living? has been with me a long time, even 
before I found proof of it in Rilke, in Shotetsu, and in Thoreau.  It has more 
than anything else informed my writing, and, just as importantly, my reading, 
of poetry.  For I conceive of the poem to be a document, behind which there 
lies a life, a person, a history.  The poem is, in a sense, a constellation of 
sensibilities, drawn from the personal night sky of the poet?and sometimes, 
should the stars be so aligned, we can make out the outline of an archetype.  

	Now the enjoyment of poetry is not only a matter of these words, these 
images, this particular circumstance, the enjoyment is in where the poem 
takes you.  Reading Greg Kosmicki?s ?Everything Has A Life of Its Own,? about 
a slight but significant conversation between father and son, I was taken to 
remember a man I?d met at a retirement party.  He asked me what I?d been 
doing, I told him I was a student, and then he asked me what I loved, and I 
told him I loved poetry.  The man then took out his wallet, and took out this 
old piece of cloth that was folded so to fit inside, and he said that this was 
from his child?s blanket, and then he held it close and said, This is a poem.  I 
reread Kosmicki?s poem, and the others in the set he has published here, as 
this issues?s featured poet, and they were all equally rewarding.  

	Rewarding too is ?Ambivalences of Color,? a short slice of life by Robert 
T. Sorrells, and John Bennett?s ?Take the ?A? Train,? which can be considered a 
companion piece to the recently published Outlaw Bible of American Poetry.  
It?s often said that a magazine reflects the sensibilities of its editor, I think 
that?s true, and we can be grateful for Jennifer Bosveld, whose sensibilities 
include a commitment to people, to poetry, and to intentional living.  


--Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  



http://www.laurahird.com/showcase/gregorythomasino.html

http://eratio.blogspot.com/

http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/


E?



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Sep 14 19:31:43 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:31:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits and the breadth and depth
	ofPudding 
References: <200609142218.k8EMIfRl002533@mail26.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <004601c6d855$f60e4d30$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Yes, good to join you, Al and Bill.  (And thanks, Gregory, for the 
encouraging words--not the first such you've sent my way.)  I knew Pudding 
House was well-thought-of and had published some good stuff, but am pleased 
to be finding out I'd been under-rating them.

Hey, now we have to get James to organize a reading in that Connecticut 
college he's at for New-Poetry Pudding Housers!

--Bob


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:18 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's Greatest Hits and the breadth and depth 
ofPudding


> Here are three reviews I wrote on the subject of Pudding Magazine and
> Jennifer Bosveld.  One of these appeared in my micro zine, Meat Epoch, and
> the other two in, I think, Small Press Review.  (I wrote these a while 
> ago, so
> please be kind. . . .)
>
> I am really very happy for you, Bob.  And to you other guys, Al and Bill, 
> I'm
> pleased to meet you and good for you!  Far out!
>
>
> PUDDING MAGAZINE:  The International Journal of Applied Poetry
> (#24, 1994) Pudding House Publications.  74pp.  $6.75.  ($15.75, for 3
> issues.)  ISSN:  0196-5913
>
> There is an aura surrounding Pudding Magazine, an aura in part cast by the
> published viewpoints and practical to-dos of its editor, Ms. Jennifer 
> Bosveld,
> and in part cast by its longevity, a longevity nourished by the caliber 
> and
> stylistic diversity of its contributors.  For Ms. Bosveld's part it is 
> foremost her
> perseverance-it is her faith in and commitment to poetic expression, and 
> to
> poetic expression as cure.  But while her commitment is unaffected, her 
> faith
> is not na?ve.  Let us define cure as the realization and cultivation of 
> "poetic
> sensitivities," the insight "to identify challenges and solutions at 
> significant
> moments in our lives."  This grants a purpose to poetic expression that
> extends beyond the sheer aesthetic; this psychology allows that through
> poetic expression-that is, generally speaking, through the artistic, the
> deliberate bringing together into words of one's personal and distinctive
> feelings and impressions and gone-throughs accrued via direct life
> experience-one may, if not defeat adversity, nevertheless make of that
> adversity such as can be gainful, tolerable, and perhaps, eventually, the
> liberating jewel, for both writer (in the form of a catharsis, a relief 
> from
> tension, the breaking of inhibition, self awareness, a knowledge or lesson
> obtained, there is generally some hygienic merit) and reader respectively.
> Thusly, then, though not exclusively, does Ms. Bosveld exercise her 
> privilege
> as editor.
> Being chief editor of an established and time- & trial-honed small
> magazine, Ms. Bosveld is at once privileged and fated to preview hundreds 
> of
> manuscripts, consequently acquiring for herself an almost confidential
> knowledge of the latest, the best, the worst, the most promising and the
> most obtuse of our poetic afflatus.  This confidential knowledge stands
> beside her privilege; it is as much her honor-her distinguished 
> opportunity-
> as it is her forte.  The poems she has selected for Pudding #24 have
> recognizable points in common:  There is, perhaps above all, a frank
> correspondence to the workaday world, to the actual (if not familiar) 
> lived
> realities of towns and cities, farms and classrooms, in kitchens and in 
> cars,
> and in vivid dislocative* narrative; these are lives we can recognize and
> appreciate; conditions and situations we can understand and, maybe, 
> identify
> with.  The imagery is pictorial and aural and concrete, the setting is 
> seen as
> well as heard, the poem has local color, has ambience, these poets have 
> ears.
> And in these narratives, the sentiments and delicacy of feelings and
> emotional (and ideational) appeals are appropriate-so that they have a
> versatility; we are susceptible to them and they belong to us all. 
> Stylistically,
> their diversity is for the most part a matter of tone or voice (which is 
> not to
> say a prime specimen of a particular literary art will be of course 
> excluded).
> This correspondence, and concrete imagery, are the primary characteristics 
> of
> realism; however realism also treats us to symbols and archetypes and to a
> moral and psychological depth; realism can be "unsophisticatedly" folksy 
> and
> "na?ve," as well as stylized or refined to a "high" sophistication. 
> Turning
> adversity, even the workaday, into poetic expression can result in an 
> intensely
> personal confessional poetry (a sort of special pleading, say, for 
> forgiveness
> or re-acceptance, even an exhibitionism), but in its most accessible and
> useful transfiguration (and indeed, what seems to appeal to Ms. Bosveld
> most), something approaching realism, or the extra-personal, if you will, 
> may
> be the desired effect-along with some sense of acceptance, if not total
> overcoming.
> All works of art are in a sense (most likely, unintentional) personal
> documents, but not all personal documents are strictly speaking works of 
> art.
> The idea of an "applied poetry" also involves-beyond the disclosure of
> poignant reflections of human thought and feeling-the considerations of
> example and service.  Outside of Pudding Magazine, two works, or
> documents, come into mind:  Autobiography of a Schizophrenic Girl,
> presented by Marguerite Sechehaye, and Mars, by the pseudonymous Fritz
> Zorn.  It is questionable, whether either of these documents (both extreme
> cases) can pass for a work of art (notwithstanding passages of 
> extraordinary
> flight), but they are rich in frank and exacting disposition, description 
> and
> disclosure, rich in raw self-analysis and remarkable psychological acuity, 
> and
> both writers were able to express themselves and adapt themselves to their
> intention; both works are specimens of the applied.  The assumption that
> someone has something to say and would benefit from saying it, is the 
> basis
> underlying applied poetry.  The realization and cultivation of the 
> expressive
> and adaptive aspects of such are paramount goals for the instructor of an
> applied poetry program.  These considerations are clearly acknowledged and
> surpassed by Ms. Bosveld, who has devoted much thought and scholarship to
> the matter, here and in her sourcebook, Topics for Getting in Touch, now 
> in
> its tenth edition.
>
> *Dislocation refers to narrated events, intentions, etc., less the benefit 
> of
> depictive locale, usually but not limited to imaginary events.
>
> ***
> Pudding Magazine: The International Journal of Applied Poetry #32, Dec.,
> 1996.
> Edited by Jennifer Bosveld.  3 / yr; 80 pp.  Pudding House Publications.
> $18.95 / yr, $6.95 / copy.
>
>
> Pudding Magazine is going strong approaching the close of its second
> decade.  Founding publisher and editor, Jennifer Bosveld, has with gifted
> sensibilities and model resolve kept the proceedings on a steady course,
> veering only towards improvement.  While keeping to the magazine's express
> purpose, the foundation, demonstration and promotion of applied poetry (a
> term originated by Bosveld to signify the beneficial role the creative 
> process
> can play in healing, learning, working and integrating with society), 
> there is
> also a liberal commitment to bringing forth fine contemporary and
> experimental writing.  (It's clear that at Pudding the term experimental 
> is not
> used as an apology for bad writing; rather, here it means writing that 
> does
> not restrict itself to familiar plays of language, writing that 
> purposefully
> departs from traditional models.)  With applied poetry, the foremost
> objective, it seems, is to remove task-attitude constraints which can
> otherwise control production; the purpose is to keepsafe the writer's
> subjectivity while helping him become much less self-conscious.  And when
> shared, the turning points in a life are exposed to view, and this can 
> revise a
> reader's perceptions and sensitivities.  Thus Pudding is of service both 
> to
> writers and to readers.  There is also a commitment to Virtual Journalism
> (another term originated by Bosveld), which is concerned not with the
> reportage only but the transmutation of experience into art, but while 
> this
> may sound pretty familiar, it's actually quite a specialized art form.
>
> Featured in #32 is Willie Abraham Howard, Jr., and from his excerpted
> letters and poetry it's clear he does not suffer from dictaphobia, he 
> speaks
> his heart with a vividness and penetration.  This is just the sort of 
> writer
> Bosveld is pleased to discover.  Mr. Howard's place is Southern-urban, or 
> else
> any black enclave just outside or enclosed inside a city.  Howard is 
> shrewd
> and to a degree worldly-minded, but he is not wearied or cynical; he has
> learned, and probably early on, to keep a psychological distance, and this 
> is
> key to his style of portraiture-when his feelings enter the narrative, it 
> is not
> to pass judgment, but to register his affections.  But Howard has a secret
> weapon; he has the ability to translate meaning into value, and value into
> poetry.  (The author's expression need not only take the form of a 
> shriek.)  In
> the poems presented here, we see the contrast between the poet's ideal and
> his reality.  In "Rockbitch In Vine City," the slang phrases are 
> disturbing, but
> still they are only language; with minimum detail Howard tells of a woman
> prone to prison and drug abuse, yet despite her wrecked life there remains
> something inviolable about her; she is still a human being.
>
> All the writing in Pudding has a direct connection to some or other lived
> experience; depending on the style of the author, this connection can be
> more or less concrete.  And as in Ralph S. Coleman's short story, "Off the
> Main Road," the connection can take the form of a revelation, an awakening
> either to or out of a self-deception.  Ben Miller's "Tiny Tales of Mayhem,
> Madness and Murder" is something of a ringer-it's typical of Bosveld to
> include a piece that is so refreshingly unusual yet still suits her 
> purpose.
> These really are tiny tales, excerpts from a longer work; brief 
> paragraphs,
> each one with a well wrought twist.  Miller may well remind the reader of
> Calvino; we cannot possibly foretell the last sentence or word but when we
> read it we are treated to the ah-hah effect.  Because of the remarkable
> quantity of submissions received, Pudding is able to publish three big 
> issues
> a year, and submissions meet with an amazingly efficient turn-around time
> (manuscripts are read the day received; this is more than a practicality, 
> this is
> a courtesy to the authors, and one worthy of emulation).  It shouldn't be 
> long
> before The Best American Poetry acknowledges Pudding with their selection.
> Always begin with a SASE for guidelines.
>
> ***
> Pudding Magazine:
> The International Journal of Applied Poetry
> #40, Spring 2000.
> Edited by Jennifer Bosveld.  66 pp.
> Pudding House Publications.
> $18.95 / 3 issues, $7.95 / copy.
>
> http://www.puddinghouse.com
>
>
> Pudding's motto reads in part, Poetry Applied to Intentional Living.  The 
> idea,
> really the principle, of "intentional living" has been with me a long 
> time, even
> before I found proof of it in Rilke, in Shotetsu, and in Thoreau.  It has 
> more
> than anything else informed my writing, and, just as importantly, my 
> reading,
> of poetry.  For I conceive of the poem to be a document, behind which 
> there
> lies a life, a person, a history.  The poem is, in a sense, a 
> constellation of
> sensibilities, drawn from the personal night sky of the poet-and 
> sometimes,
> should the stars be so aligned, we can make out the outline of an 
> archetype.
>
> Now the enjoyment of poetry is not only a matter of these words, these
> images, this particular circumstance, the enjoyment is in where the poem
> takes you.  Reading Greg Kosmicki's "Everything Has A Life of Its Own," 
> about
> a slight but significant conversation between father and son, I was taken 
> to
> remember a man I'd met at a retirement party.  He asked me what I'd been
> doing, I told him I was a student, and then he asked me what I loved, and 
> I
> told him I loved poetry.  The man then took out his wallet, and took out 
> this
> old piece of cloth that was folded so to fit inside, and he said that this 
> was
> from his child's blanket, and then he held it close and said, This is a 
> poem.  I
> reread Kosmicki's poem, and the others in the set he has published here, 
> as
> this issues's featured poet, and they were all equally rewarding.
>
> Rewarding too is "Ambivalences of Color," a short slice of life by Robert
> T. Sorrells, and John Bennett's "Take the 'A' Train," which can be 
> considered a
> companion piece to the recently published Outlaw Bible of American Poetry.
> It's often said that a magazine reflects the sensibilities of its editor, 
> I think
> that's true, and we can be grateful for Jennifer Bosveld, whose 
> sensibilities
> include a commitment to people, to poetry, and to intentional living.
>
>
> --Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
>
> http://www.laurahird.com/showcase/gregorythomasino.html
>
> http://eratio.blogspot.com/
>
> http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/
>
>
> E?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep 15 11:26:51 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:26:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from UbU KinG WeB to the Buffalo
Message-ID: <007101c6d8db$5f0d4360$27ad3252@ANNY>

Street Poets & Visionaries: Selections from the UbuWeb Collection
September 7 - October 14, 2006

Oliver Kamm/5BE Gallery
621 West 27th Street
New York, New York 10001

===========================================
Public Events:

--> Saturday, September 23, 2:00 p.m.
Irwin Chusid, "Songs in the Key of Z"
Lecture on Outsider Music

Irwin Chusid will recount the strange life stories of outsider musicians, both prominent
and obscure, including such figures as The Shaggs, Syd Barrett, Tiny Tim, Joe Meek,
Jandek, Captain Beefheart, The Cherry Sisters, Wesley Willis, Daniel Johnston, the
Legendary Stardust Cowboy, Wild Man Fischer, and Harry Partch. Featuring rarely seen
videos and obscure recordings.

--> Saturday, September 30, 2:00 p.m.
"The Sounds of Madness: Poets and Performers Interpret Outsider Writings"
Performers include Eileen Myles, Edwin Torres, Vijay Seshadri, Kenneth Goldsmith, and
Shelley Hirsch

--> Saturday, October 7, 2:00 p.m.
"Outside In" Panel
Panelists: Wayne Koestenbaum, Alissa Quart, David Grubbs

A panel exploring the transmigration of outsider aesthetics and practices influencing and
entering into the mainstream.

All events are free and open to the public.

===========================================

Oliver Kamm/5BE Gallery is pleased to announce STREET POETS & VISIONARIES: SELECTIONS
FROM THE UBUWEB COLLECTION, an exhibition of posters and ephemeral writings from the
streets of New York City.

In the tradition of Jim Shaw's "Thrift Shop Paintings," this collection of street
posters, mad scribblings, political screeds, religious rants, and paranoid raves expands
our notion of the Outsider arts to include the written word.

Formally striking, emotionally charged, and bizarre beyond belief, these graphical works
dovetail with the historic traditions of concrete poetry and art brut. Seamlessly melding
text and image, their obsessive quality evokes Adolf W?lfli and Henry Darger's visionary
works.

Featured in the exhibition will be the work of David Daniels, a 73 year-old Bay Area
artist, who has been creating insanely complex visual poems using only Microsoft Word.
Works from two of his epic series, "The Gates of Paradise" and "Years" will be featured.

Coinciding with the exhibition will be three public events. On Saturday, September 23rd
at 2 p.m., author Irwin Chusid will deliver a lecture on Outsider Music called, "Songs in
the Key of Z." On Saturday, September 30th, renowned poets and performers Eileen Myles,
Edwin Torres, Vijay Seshadri, Kenneth Goldsmith and Shelley Hirsch will stage a reading
of Outsider writings. On Saturday, October 7th, a panel, "Outside In" will explore the
transmigration of Outsider aesthetics and practices influencing and entering into the
mainstream. Panelists include Wayne Koestenbaum, Alissa Quart and David Grubbs. All
events are free and open to the public.

UbuWeb (ubu.com) is the Internet's largest resource dedicated to all strains of the
avant-garde, ethnopoetics, and outsider arts, featuring thousands of MP3s, films, books,
scholarly papers, and poems.

Oliver Kamm/5BE Gallery is located at 621 West 27th Street, on the ground floor. Gallery
hours are Tuesday through Saturday from 11-6.

For further information or images, please contact the gallery at 212-255-0979 or visit
our website at www.oliverkamm.com.



UbuWeb
http://ubu.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/66a734e6/attachment.html>

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 11:36:30 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:36:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>

I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of poetry,
partially for my own personal use and partially for use in one area of my
comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'll put a partial list that I've started below.

I'm trying to keep the list somewhat contemporary--however you want to
define that word.  I'm thinking 20th century, but that's no reason not to
suggest a book (or essay) that you think is very important.  I'm rather at a
loss right now, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Yours,

Jeff Newberry


   - Richard Hugo, *The Triggering Town*
   - Mary Oliver, *The Practice of Poetry*
   - Philip Levine, *So Ask:  Essays, Conversations, and Interviews*
   - Carl Denis, *Poetry as Persuasion*
   - Ed Hirsch, *How to Read a Poem (& Fall in Love with Poetry*)
   - Randall Jarrell, *Poetry and the Age*
   - Charles Wright, *Quarter Notes:  Improvisations and Inteviews*
   - William Matthews, *Curiosities*
   - C.K. Williams, *Poetry & Consciousness*
   - William Stafford, *Writing the Australian Crawl*
   - John Ciari, *How Does a Poem Mean?*
   - Octavio Paz, *The Bow and the Lyre*



-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/e2fe6294/attachment.html>

From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Sep 15 11:40:43 2006
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:40:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4f2bec39712.450a913b@mail.nyu.edu>

Dear Jeff, 

I'd add Kathleen Raine to your list. Also Brodsky, Heaney, Muldoon. Also
Louise Gluck. 


-------------- next part --------------
I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of poetry,
partially for my own personal use and partially for use in one area of my
comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'll put a partial list that I've started below.

I'm trying to keep the list somewhat contemporary--however you want to
define that word.  I'm thinking 20th century, but that's no reason not to
suggest a book (or essay) that you think is very important.  I'm rather at a
loss right now, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Yours,

Jeff Newberry


   - Richard Hugo, *The Triggering Town*
   - Mary Oliver, *The Practice of Poetry*
   - Philip Levine, *So Ask:  Essays, Conversations, and Interviews*
   - Carl Denis, *Poetry as Persuasion*
   - Ed Hirsch, *How to Read a Poem (& Fall in Love with Poetry*)
   - Randall Jarrell, *Poetry and the Age*
   - Charles Wright, *Quarter Notes:  Improvisations and Inteviews*
   - William Matthews, *Curiosities*
   - C.K. Williams, *Poetry & Consciousness*
   - William Stafford, *Writing the Australian Crawl*
   - John Ciari, *How Does a Poem Mean?*
   - Octavio Paz, *The Bow and the Lyre*



-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/abddeb62/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep 15 12:00:06 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:00:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A071C6A-25DE-41D5-AE46-60FB88F27AAB@ripon.edu>

Jeff,

One poet-critic I enjoy greatly is Seamus Heaney--practically  
anything he's written.  Ditto Donald Hall and Hayden Carruth--just  
unfailingly interesting stuff.  And there are a lot of other gems in  
that UMichigan series that I see you're already sampling.  One dark  
horse is the volume by William Meredith, a poet I'm not that fond of-- 
but whose book of criticism is very fine:  *Poems Are Hard to Read*.   
Likewise the Lowell, Robert Hayden, Annie Finch, Tom Disch, Alicia  
Ostriker--that series really is a goldmine.

Some others, off the top of my muddled head--not all from UMichigan:

Ellen B. Voigt, The Flexible Lyric
Jane Hirshfield, Nine Gates
Marianne Boruch, Poetry's Old Air; and The Blue Pharmacy
William Matthews, The Poetry Blues
Elizabeth Alexander, The Black Interior

And I suppose anthologies ought to be mentioned.  I'm very fond of  
Molly McQuade's By Herself:  Women Reclaim Poetry.

Not to mention Kate Sontag's and my own After Confession:  Poetry as  
Autobiography, still available & reasonably priced from Graywolf. . . .



On Sep 15, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of  
> poetry, partially for my own personal use and partially for use in  
> one area of my comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone  
> has any suggestions.  I'll put a partial list that I've started below.
>
> I'm trying to keep the list somewhat contemporary--however you want  
> to define that word.  I'm thinking 20th century, but that's no  
> reason not to suggest a book (or essay) that you think is very  
> important.  I'm rather at a loss right now, so any help would be  
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> Richard Hugo, The Triggering Town
> Mary Oliver, The Practice of Poetry
> Philip Levine, So Ask:  Essays, Conversations, and Interviews
> Carl Denis, Poetry as Persuasion
> Ed Hirsch, How to Read a Poem (& Fall in Love with Poetry)
> Randall Jarrell, Poetry and the Age
> Charles Wright, Quarter Notes:  Improvisations and Inteviews
> William Matthews, Curiosities
> C.K. Williams, Poetry & Consciousness
> William Stafford, Writing the Australian Crawl
> John Ciari, How Does a Poem Mean?
> Octavio Paz, The Bow and the Lyre
>

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/e67762e7/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Sep 15 12:06:04 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:06:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
Message-ID: <1490.1158336364@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/b7f5cd47/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 12:19:16 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:19:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
In-Reply-To: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
References: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609150919g53de1065i9ca79561b17d9972@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/14/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover was selling for
> $85 US.

Well, value of used books rarely has that much to do (positive or
negative) with contemporary author's quality, it's mostly about
availability.

Then again, I picked up a pristing hardback Monolithos (first
edition-- don't know if there were more) for $2.95 at the used book
store on the corner. It was my first introduction to Gilbert. I marked
the hell out of it before I knew what it was worth (was offered $200
for it when I asked) but would have done so anyway. I don't believe in
reading without a pencil and I don't believe in not marking up books
unless they are going back to the library...

c


From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 15 12:30:00 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] past simple. online. words. pictures
Message-ID: <20060915163000.90822.qmail@web31515.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 past simple, a new online rag is out an ready to be seen. You can find prose and poetry by
Richard Froude, Pirooz Kalayeh, Matthew Langley, Dorthea Lasky, Tao Lin, Reb Livingston, Farid Matuk, Gina Myers, Logan Ryan Smith, Tyler Smith, Aaron Tieger, Gabriella Torres and art by Stacy Elaine Dacheux. 


www.pastsimple.org  
 
 
 
 		
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/2c508ada/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep 15 12:32:24 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:32:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] OP classics
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0609150919g53de1065i9ca79561b17d9972@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0609150919g53de1065i9ca79561b17d9972@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07BC8937-A32F-4B64-B793-4F3FE8F8184D@ripon.edu>


On Sep 15, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Chris Lott wrote:

> On 9/14/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>> the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover was selling for
>> $85 US.
>
> Well, value of used books rarely has that much to do (positive or
> negative) with contemporary author's quality, it's mostly about
> availability.

Well, sure.  In Gilbert's case, though, I remain a little surprised  
that he's so much out of print, really.  Perhaps his recent splash  
with the new book will change that, which would be a good thing.  I  
wonder if anyone knows:  might there be a Gilbert Collected/Selected  
perhaps in the works?

I'm doing an independent study class with a very fine student right  
now, and we're reading a lot of contemporary poetry.  I'm always  
frustrated and irked, though, by how many of my favorites have fallen  
out of print.

Laura Jensen's incomparable *Bad Boats*, for instance.  Boy, that's  
one I'd nominate for immediate re-issue in the Carnegie classics series!

Not to mention:

Philip Levine's *1933*.
Christopher Gilbert's *Across the Mutual Landscape*
Gerald Stern's *Lucky Life*


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/6e1c2792/attachment.html>

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 13:05:02 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 13:05:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <1490.1158336364@opus40.org>
References: <1490.1158336364@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609151005o28572cf5s670cf4196a3c8594@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the recommendations.

David--I've got After Confession and mean to add it to my list.

Jeff Newberry

On 9/15/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> Mary Oliver has a book called "Rules for the Dance" on writing poetry in
> forms.
>
>
>
> On Fri Sep 15 11:36 , 'Jeff Newberry' sent:
>
> I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of poetry,
> partially for my own personal use and partially for use in one area of my
> comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
> I'll put a partial list that I've started below.
>
> I'm trying to keep the list somewhat contemporary--however you want to
> define that word.  I'm thinking 20th century, but that's no reason not to
> suggest a book (or essay) that you think is very important.  I'm rather at a
> loss right now, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
>    - Richard Hugo, The Triggering Town
>    - Mary Oliver, The Practice of Poetry
>    - Philip Levine, So Ask:  Essays, Conversations, and Interviews
>    - Carl Denis, Poetry as Persuasion
>    - Ed Hirsch, How to Read a Poem (& Fall in Love with Poetry)
>    - Randall Jarrell, Poetry and the Age
>    - Charles Wright, Quarter Notes:  Improvisations and Inteviews
>    - William Matthews, Curiosities
>    - C.K. Williams, Poetry & Consciousness
>    - William Stafford, Writing the Australian Crawl
>    - John Ciari, How Does a Poem Mean?
>    - Octavio Paz, The Bow and the Lyre
>
>
>
> --
> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/f467e7bc/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 15 13:15:13 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:15:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

Peter Levi, +The Noise Made By Poems+
Veronica Forrest-Thomson, +Poetic Artifice+

Robert Graves (and Laura Riding [Jackson]), +A Survey of Modernist Poetry+

Robin Hamilton
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:36 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry


  I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of poetry, partially for my own personal use and partially for use in one area of my comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions.  I'll put a partial list that I've started below.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/8ced01e8/attachment.html>

From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 15 13:53:40 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:53:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
	<002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <F8651E98-DDAF-4E91-8C53-D2D900851B90@earthlink.net>


Yes, A Survey of Modernist Poetry is great--
but maybe someday we can rid ourselves of the myth that Graves  
actually wrote the book more than
Riding---later (Riding) Jackson--did...


On Sep 15, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Robin wrote:

> Peter Levi, +The Noise Made By Poems+
> Veronica Forrest-Thomson, +Poetic Artifice+
>
> Robert Graves (and Laura Riding [Jackson]), +A Survey of Modernist  
> Poetry+
>
> Robin Hamilton
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Newberry
> To: NewPoetry
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:36 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
>
> I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of  
> poetry, partially for my own personal use and partially for use in  
> one area of my comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone  
> has any suggestions.  I'll put a partial list that I've started below.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/0eac605e/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 15 14:20:55 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609151005o28572cf5s670cf4196a3c8594@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609151120550.12263@hymn05.u.washington.edu>

Ezra Pound ABC's of Reading
Frank O'Hara's Personism Essay
Ron Padgett's Teacher's and Students Guid to Poetic Forms or something like that.
Andre Breton's various surrealist manifestos
Marjorie Perloff's Wittgenstein's Ladder, even though she's a critic not a poet, i think it's great and leads to
Ludwig Wittgenstein, The Philosophical Investigations which I think one can read as both poetry and critical theory
also Michel DeGuy's Recumbents, although I only recommend that if you have at least a passing familiarity with French. I'm working on a review of the first english translation right now, and the translation is very poor.


On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Thanks for the recommendations.
>
> David--I've got After Confession and mean to add it to my list.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> On 9/15/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Mary Oliver has a book called "Rules for the Dance" on writing poetry in
>> forms.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri Sep 15 11:36 , 'Jeff Newberry' sent:
>> 
>> I'm putting together a list of books on the form and craft of poetry,
>> partially for my own personal use and partially for use in one area of my
>> comprehensive examinations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
>> I'll put a partial list that I've started below.
>> 
>> I'm trying to keep the list somewhat contemporary--however you want to
>> define that word.  I'm thinking 20th century, but that's no reason not to
>> suggest a book (or essay) that you think is very important.  I'm rather at a
>> loss right now, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> Yours,
>> 
>> Jeff Newberry
>> 
>> 
>>    - Richard Hugo, The Triggering Town
>>    - Mary Oliver, The Practice of Poetry
>>    - Philip Levine, So Ask:  Essays, Conversations, and Interviews
>>    - Carl Denis, Poetry as Persuasion
>>    - Ed Hirsch, How to Read a Poem (& Fall in Love with Poetry)
>>    - Randall Jarrell, Poetry and the Age
>>    - Charles Wright, Quarter Notes:  Improvisations and Inteviews
>>    - William Matthews, Curiosities
>>    - C.K. Williams, Poetry & Consciousness
>>    - William Stafford, Writing the Australian Crawl
>>    - John Ciari, How Does a Poem Mean?
>>    - Octavio Paz, The Bow and the Lyre
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>> 
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                  --Johnny Cash
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 15 15:43:19 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:43:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com><002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<F8651E98-DDAF-4E91-8C53-D2D900851B90@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c6d8ff$325f3c00$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

<<
Yes, A Survey of Modernist Poetry is great--
but maybe someday we can rid ourselves of the myth that Graves actually 
wrote the book more than
Riding---later (Riding) Jackson--did...
>>

Um.  I'm not sure the truth of this will ever entirely out, but the bottom 
line seems to me that the bulk of the book is consistent with the rest of 
Graves' prose criticism, but not with that of LRJ (which, admittedly, I 
don't know as well).

Is it agreed (I really don't know here) that at least the bits Graves' 
selected and excerpted in +The Common Asphodel+ are by him (alone, or 
mostly)?

RH.

{They were both barking mad, but she barked louder.}

On Sep 15, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Robin wrote:

Robert Graves (and Laura Riding [Jackson]), +A Survey of Modernist Poetry+




From tad at opus40.org  Fri Sep 15 17:31:42 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:31:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com><002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><F8651E98-DDAF-4E91-8C53-D2D900851B90@earthlink.net>
	<004b01c6d8ff$325f3c00$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <000e01c6d90e$59cbb610$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Babette Deutsch - A Poetry Handbook
Muriel Rukeyser - The Life of Poetry
William Packard - The Poet's Dictionary
Lewis Turco - The New Book of Forms
Donald Justice - Oblivion: On Writers and Writing
Donald Justice - A Donald Justice Reader


--the mole


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 15 18:08:33 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:08:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <000e01c6d90e$59cbb610$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com><002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><F8651E98-DDAF-4E91-8C53-D2D900851B90@earthlink.net>
	<004b01c6d8ff$325f3c00$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<000e01c6d90e$59cbb610$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <CB86EB91-D2F0-4140-B450-07E6B0F15A7B@earthlink.net>

Oops, I was just about to send a list of Poets on Pottery,
but then realized it was Poets on Poetry that were wanted.
Gotta get my eyes checked again.

Hal

"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg."
			--Samuel Butler

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 15, 2006, at 5:31 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> Babette Deutsch - A Poetry Handbook
> Muriel Rukeyser - The Life of Poetry
> William Packard - The Poet's Dictionary
> Lewis Turco - The New Book of Forms
> Donald Justice - Oblivion: On Writers and Writing
> Donald Justice - A Donald Justice Reader
>
>
> --the mole
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 18:35:42 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:35:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB86EB91-D2F0-4140-B450-07E6B0F15A7B@earthlink.net>
References: <731bb17a0609150836s493a1cb6p8ff92b5e2d995d42@mail.gmail.com>
	<002501c6d8ea$822c5c50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<F8651E98-DDAF-4E91-8C53-D2D900851B90@earthlink.net>
	<004b01c6d8ff$325f3c00$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<000e01c6d90e$59cbb610$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<CB86EB91-D2F0-4140-B450-07E6B0F15A7B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609151535h142a0470x7ee98303f7acab6f@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, well, one man's art is another man's junk store treasure.

Jeff


On 9/15/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Oops, I was just about to send a list of Poets on Pottery,
> but then realized it was Poets on Poetry that were wanted.
> Gotta get my eyes checked again.
>
> Hal
>
> "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg."
>                        --Samuel Butler
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
> On Sep 15, 2006, at 5:31 PM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
> > Babette Deutsch - A Poetry Handbook
> > Muriel Rukeyser - The Life of Poetry
> > William Packard - The Poet's Dictionary
> > Lewis Turco - The New Book of Forms
> > Donald Justice - Oblivion: On Writers and Writing
> > Donald Justice - A Donald Justice Reader
> >
> >
> > --the mole
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/6d140071/attachment.html>

From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 19:17:09 2006
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:17:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] OP classics
In-Reply-To: <07BC8937-A32F-4B64-B793-4F3FE8F8184D@ripon.edu>
References: <F4DDBEC2-3CDD-464B-962C-1575B620C44E@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0609150919g53de1065i9ca79561b17d9972@mail.gmail.com>
	<07BC8937-A32F-4B64-B793-4F3FE8F8184D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0609151617kdfbff31q6ebedcb2410e0185@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/15/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> Well, sure.

Guess I misinterpreted what you meant by "I guess Gilbert's mystique holds firm"

I second *1933* and *Lucky Life* for republicaation. Never read the other two!

c
-- 
Chris Lott


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 20:01:47 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:01:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
Message-ID: <587.4b0dde8.323c98eb@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/15/2006 12:21:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:

I don't  believe in
reading without a pencil and I don't believe in not marking up  books
unless they are going back to the  library...




Chris, I'm with you on this...unless the marking is completely marring  the
text, I feel the book is made better by marginal notes and  underlining. 
It feels to me that I'm reading a well-loved (or provocative) book; and I'm  
interested in what was marked as compared to what I might mark as important or 
 interesting and worth arguing over in the margins.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/bcf9c579/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 15 20:08:03 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:08:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
In-Reply-To: <587.4b0dde8.323c98eb@aol.com>
References: <587.4b0dde8.323c98eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0116DFD1-BA06-4E85-B374-6E70A205F407@earthlink.net>

There's something to be said for marking up library books as well.
I vividly remember the copy of Cooper's The Deerslayer that,
every now and then, had encouraging words from some previous
reader: little messages such as "Cheer up. Only three hundred pages
to go"; "Only two hundred pages now"; and so on.

Hal

Actual Product May Vary from Photos

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 15, 2006, at 8:01 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/15/2006 12:21:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> I don't believe in
> reading without a pencil and I don't believe in not marking up books
> unless they are going back to the library...
>
> Chris, I'm with you on this...unless the marking is completely  
> marring the
> text, I feel the book is made better by marginal notes and  
> underlining.
> It feels to me that I'm reading a well-loved (or provocative) book;  
> and I'm interested in what was marked as compared to what I might  
> mark as important or interesting and worth arguing over in the  
> margins.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/b9373fd7/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 15 20:08:49 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:08:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Autumnal Sonnet"
Message-ID: <7676E1A9-79B2-42B5-A7EA-AFBF9A2A96B6@earthlink.net>

Autumnal Sonnet

An undesecrated flag flew over the ballpark, where outfielders
napped and baserunners took desperate chances. Such talent
as that had not been seen since the beginning of the eclipse.

Opportunity stood on our doorstep, hand raised to knock. Embryo-
genesis, our middle name. No-fly zones at the ready in the backyard.
All sorts of guys came by for drinks, or looking for free hand-outs.

Among the missing, we were always at a loss for something to say,
something at least sympathetic, if not moreso. A designer
of aloha shirts camped on the median strip across from the end

of our driveway. ?Will work for food? said his sign. Some said his
parents had married for love, but none could have known for sure.
Youngsters congregated in the front yard, choosing up sides.

We older folk kicked back in the bleachers, basking in the early
October sun, taking our game to higher levels than ever before.



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 20:09:54 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:09:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
Message-ID: <549.723d9b5.323c9ad2@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/15/2006 6:08:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

Poets on  Pottery


Yes, lots has been written on Keat's 'Ode To A Grecian  Urn'...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/ee3de40b/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep 15 20:14:39 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 02:14:39 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Poetry
References: <549.723d9b5.323c9ad2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c6d925$1a091ce0$27ad3252@ANNY>

It took me a while but I got it
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:09 AM


  In a message dated 9/15/2006 6:08:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
    Poets on Pottery
  Yes, lots has been written on Keat's 'Ode To A Grecian Urn'...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/ec23a72c/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 20:34:37 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:34:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] OP classics
Message-ID: <464.75864500.323ca09d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/15/2006 12:33:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


the cheapest edition of *Monolithos* I could discover  was selling for 
$85 US.




I'm not a specialist on OP books...but one of the interesting things
about Monolithos was that Knopf let the book go OP prematurely
and I believe Graywolf stepped in and did a paperback reprint. 
I think the really expensive copies are the sparse Knopf hardbacks. I know  a 
couple of fine book sellers who are ga-ga over anything Gilbert. That's  
anecdotal evidence of book trade people driving up the prices
partly based on the 'mythology' we talked about.
 
re: out of print 'classics'
Won't  "print-on-demand' technology soon make OP a anachronism? 
I wonder if in the future there will even be a designation such
as 'first edition'.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060915/d7e68d0e/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 08:39:44 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:39:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About Finnegan About Gilbert About Fame
In-Reply-To: <587.4b0dde8.323c98eb@aol.com>
References: <587.4b0dde8.323c98eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609160539s38cb36a1s29b6b8f467350976@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/15/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 9/15/2006 12:21:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
> I don't believe in
> reading without a pencil and I don't believe in not marking up books
> unless they are going back to the library...
>
>
>
> Chris, I'm with you on this...unless the marking is completely marring the
> text, I feel the book is made better by marginal notes and underlining.
> It feels to me that I'm reading a well-loved (or provocative) book; and I'm
> interested in what was marked as compared to what I might mark as important
> or interesting and worth arguing over in the margins.
> Finnegan

One of the things I love best about buying old books is nfinding
marginalia.  It lets me experience another person's inner life.

Its reminds me a little of those old Medieval manuscripts where every
now and then the monk will take a break from his scrivening to write
in his elegant hand "This vellum is hairy."


Suzanne


-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and
what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,'
polish that, and you have style."

--Quentin Crisp


From letitia.trent at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 10:30:26 2006
From: letitia.trent at gmail.com (L Trent)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:30:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review
Message-ID: <e50ab58e0609160730m731e68b4n8447dca397252942@mail.gmail.com>

The second issue of *21 Stars Review* (http://sundress/net/21stars) is live!




Featuring work by Glenn Bach, Dennis Barone, Jack Conway, Skip Fox, Jason
Fraley, Jeff Harrison, Nicolas Mansito III, Harmony Neal, T.A. Noonan, Becky
Peterson, Phil Primeau, Caleb Puckett, Bruce Holland Rogers, Natalie
Shapero, and Bill West.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/ab97c93a/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 12:28:27 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:28:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] optical nerve
Message-ID: <006601c6d9ad$239f9b70$56a83452@ANNY>

short videos, it takes some time to download them:
http://www.opticnerve.co.uk/ModernAmericanPoets.htm

and:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colin Still"
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 PM
Subject: my William Blake video at Leadenhall Market this weekend....


Hi!

A brief note to draw your attention to the fact that my modest little film 
'Companion of Angels: A Celebration of William Blake' will be shown 
throughout both days of Open House Weekend - ie: this coming Saturday & 
Sunday - outside The Lamb public house in Leadenhall Market; it will run 
continuously from 10.00 until 5.00, with me in attendance to press the 
'start' button....


COMPANION OF ANGELS

A CELEBRATION OF WILLIAM BLAKE

 The piece started out as an evocation of Bunhill ('bone-hill') Fields, the 
Dissenters' burial ground on the City's northern boundary. This haunting 
spot, which I had always (wrongly, it seems) believed to be the site of a 
plague pit, is where four great writers are buried: the visionary poet & 
painter William Blake, Daniel Defoe, author of  'Moll Flanders',  'Robinson 
Crusoe' & 'A Journal of the Plague Year', John Bunyan, writer of 'The 
Pilgrim's Progress' & 'Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners', &, almost 
forgotten, it seems, the seventeenth century hymnodist Isaac Watts.

 As the film developed, my interests became increasingly focused on Blake, 
from whose poems & correspondence I assembled a verbal collage, which is 
here read in a canon-like fashion by myself & by the poets Charles 
Bainbridge & David Chaloner.
<...>

Whilst, as the work progressed, Bunyan & Defoe gradually slipped out of the 
picture, Isaac Watts remained a constant presence, heard here on the 
soundtrack in a series of variations on three of his most famous hymn tunes: 
'When I Survey the Wondrous Cross',  'Jesus Shall Reign Where'er the Sun' & 
'O God, Our Help in Ages Past'. These have been skilfully arranged by the 
composer Paul Archbold, & are performed by the viola player Bridget Carey & 
the virtuoso cellist Neil Heyde, whose improvisations are featured 
extensively. Visually the piece draws on Bunhill Fields, on images of the 
modern city & glimpses of stained glass windows in three City churches. To 
give it an hallucinatory quality the footage was shot at extreme shutter 
speeds, either at a third of a second, creating semi-abstract washes of 
colour, or at a 10,000th of a second, piling images on at the rate of 
twenty-five per second.

 The maps which appear in the opening section are from Christopher & John 
Greenwood's 'Map of London from an Actual Survey' of 1827. This atlas, 
published in the year of the poet's death, offers a precise cartographical 
record of the city in which Blake spent all but three years of his life & in 
which he felt so deeply rooted. 'I can alone carry on my visionary studies 
in London unannoy'd', he wrote: 'I may converse with my friends in Eternity, 
Dream Dreams & speak Parables.'

It's still very much 'work in progress', but come if you can....

COLIN

OPTIC NERVE
www.opticnerve.co.uk



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/478367c1/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 14:14:50 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:14:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heydays
Message-ID: <008c01c6d9bc$00a01cd0$56a83452@ANNY>

Friends,

I just got an email from someone I knew way back in another lifetime, Bob O'Neil, who has just retired from Fresno State.   He's put together what appears to be a very useful online anthology, for use with students of all ages:  http://www.heydays.ws.  It features poems -- many by well-known and highly regarded poets -- about childhood experiences. 

Please enjoy -- and please pass the word. 
Ingrid Wendt


A YOUTH IN APPAREL THAT GLITTERED

27

Stephen Crane
A youth in apparel that glitteredWent to walk in a grim forest.
      There he met an assassin
      Attired all in garb of old days;
      He, scowling through the thickets,
      And dagger poised quivering,
      Rushed upon the youth.
      "Sir," said the latter,
      "I am enchanted, believe me,
      To die, thus,
      In this medieval fashion,
      According to the best legends;
      Ah, what joy!"
      Then took he the wound, smiling,
      And died, content.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



     

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/f2fc03b7/attachment.html>

From ciccariello at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 14:29:15 2006
From: ciccariello at gmail.com (Peter Ciccariello)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:29:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] optical nerve
In-Reply-To: <006601c6d9ad$239f9b70$56a83452@ANNY>
References: <006601c6d9ad$239f9b70$56a83452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <8f3fdbad0609161129x560c1c57xba0c4efba05b7ffc@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for that link Anny, the Optic Nerve shorts are outstanding!
-Peter Ciccariello

On 9/16/06, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>  short videos, it takes some time to download them:
> http://www.opticnerve.co.uk/ModernAmericanPoets.htm
>
> and:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Colin Still"
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 PM
> Subject: my William Blake video at Leadenhall Market this weekend....
>
>
> Hi!
>
> A brief note to draw your attention to the fact that my modest little film
>
> 'Companion of Angels: A Celebration of William Blake' will be shown
> throughout both days of Open House Weekend - ie: this coming Saturday &
> Sunday - outside The Lamb public house in Leadenhall Market; it will run
> continuously from 10.00 until 5.00, with me in attendance to press the
> 'start' button....
>
>
> COMPANION OF ANGELS
>
> A CELEBRATION OF WILLIAM BLAKE
>
>  The piece started out as an evocation of Bunhill ('bone-hill') Fields,
> the
> Dissenters' burial ground on the City's northern boundary. This haunting
> spot, which I had always (wrongly, it seems) believed to be the site of a
> plague pit, is where four great writers are buried: the visionary poet &
> painter William Blake, Daniel Defoe, author of  'Moll Flanders',
> 'Robinson
> Crusoe' & 'A Journal of the Plague Year', John Bunyan, writer of 'The
> Pilgrim's Progress' & 'Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners', &, almost
>
> forgotten, it seems, the seventeenth century hymnodist Isaac Watts.
>
>  As the film developed, my interests became increasingly focused on Blake,
>
> from whose poems & correspondence I assembled a verbal collage, which is
> here read in a canon-like fashion by myself & by the poets Charles
> Bainbridge & David Chaloner.
> <...>
>
> Whilst, as the work progressed, Bunyan & Defoe gradually slipped out of
> the
> picture, Isaac Watts remained a constant presence, heard here on the
> soundtrack in a series of variations on three of his most famous hymn
> tunes:
> 'When I Survey the Wondrous Cross',  'Jesus Shall Reign Where'er the Sun'
> &
> 'O God, Our Help in Ages Past'. These have been skilfully arranged by the
> composer Paul Archbold, & are performed by the viola player Bridget Carey
> &
> the virtuoso cellist Neil Heyde, whose improvisations are featured
> extensively. Visually the piece draws on Bunhill Fields, on images of the
> modern city & glimpses of stained glass windows in three City churches. To
>
> give it an hallucinatory quality the footage was shot at extreme shutter
> speeds, either at a third of a second, creating semi-abstract washes of
> colour, or at a 10,000th of a second, piling images on at the rate of
> twenty-five per second.
>
>  The maps which appear in the opening section are from Christopher & John
> Greenwood's 'Map of London from an Actual Survey' of 1827. This atlas,
> published in the year of the poet's death, offers a precise cartographical
>
> record of the city in which Blake spent all but three years of his life &
> in
> which he felt so deeply rooted. 'I can alone carry on my visionary studies
>
> in London unannoy'd', he wrote: 'I may converse with my friends in
> Eternity,
> Dream Dreams & speak Parables.'
>
> It's still very much 'work in progress', but come if you can....
>
> COLIN
>
> OPTIC NERVE
> www.opticnerve.co.uk
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>  Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/f771845e/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 14:44:23 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:44:23 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Atticus/Finch presents: Myung Mi Kim's River Antes
Message-ID: <00bd01c6d9c0$2133a9e0$56a83452@ANNY>

www.atticusfinch.org

and

[Please forward this message to all interested parties. Word of mouth is, of 
course, how small presses survive!]

We at Atticus/Finch are going out of our damn minds daydreaming about our 
newest book, and we simply couldn't wait another minute to scream about it 
at the top of our fragile, slightly crystallized lungs. We're a bit giddy 
about this one, and while it's true we're mostly giddy, this time it's 
justified. Friends, I'm honored to announce the release of our eighth 
chapbook: Myung Mi Kim's River Antes.

Since 2002's Commons, Atticus/Finch has been hard at work trying to secure 
the rights to Myung Mi Kim's new project, and while this is not entirely the 
case, it's one hundred percent true that we've devoured each and every 
magazine appearance we could find since then, praying to 
whoever-it-is-these-days-who-publishes-fancy-trade-edition-books to do the 
damn thing. In the meantime, we took matters in our own hands and printed 
the most elegant book we had in us. And boy did we have it in us.

River Antes begins where Commons left off: square in a highly charged 
manifold where the constellated image of culture, language, and 
signification stands as the analogue of the subject's experience of family, 
honor, and place. These poems challenge us to interface with each event of 
language as the site of historical responsibility-the instant in which what 
is said, what is claimed, resonates between what was, what is to come, and 
what could have been.

There are only 150 copies of this book in the world, all made by my two 
little hands to be held gently in yours. If you'd like a copy, please order 
soon (as these books sell out FAST). If you are concerned about getting a 
copy, please consider requesting a standing order for future books.

And don't forget to swing by our website, www.atticusfinch.org, to read some 
sample poems and take a look at the cover (click on the book's title for all 
the details). We're still working on getting Pay Pal going on the web, so, 
until then, all books are mail-order only.

To obtain a copy, send $8 (well-concealed cash, check, or money order (made 
payable to Michael Cross)) to:

Atticus/Finch Chapbooks
c/o Michael Cross
State University of New York at Buffalo
Samuel Clemens Hall #306
Buffalo NY 14260-4610

[$8, folks, is the price of a movie ticket! Get your money's worth!]

And look for the following A/F volumes soon:

John Taggart, Unveiling/Marianne Moore (Winter 2006)
Rob Halpern and Taylor Brady, TBA (2007)
Patrick F. Durgin, Imitation Poems (2007)

[[One last word, if you've made it this far, about small press publishing. 
I've received emails here and there wondering why these books aren't in 
bookstores, and why, finally, the print run is so small. I don't distribute 
these books because they sell out before I can get them on the shelves. And 
they sell out because I can only, realistically, print 150-200 by myself. I 
am absolutely committed to getting these books into peoples lives, but I 
refuse to compromise the quality of the product. I want to sew and fold and 
cut each book in a manner that does justice to the labor of the poetry. And, 
in order to make more, I'd have to make differently (i.e. mass produce, 
using cheaper papers, etc.). My interest in chapbook publishing has always 
been to bridge the gap between the poet and her readers. Instead of waiting 
two to five to ten years to see a trade-edition in print, I'd like to get 
the book quickly into the hands of folks who care, and I'd like the book to 
transfer the labor of its production (as language, as a thing, etc.) in 
order to do justice to the reader's labor of reception. I don't plan on 
making these books any differently, but I DO want to ensure that the folks 
that NEED get them. And in order to do this, I need the support of the 
poetry community to help spread the word to interested parties before my 
stock is bone dry. In the meantime, I hope to make it easier to order off 
the webpage, and I also hope to spend this year making free online e-books 
of all the chapbooks that have sold out, as well as (and this may be pure 
fantasy, but I'm going to do what I can) audio recordings of readings from 
each manuscript. Finally (and I'm getting off topic here but I'm on a 
roll!), I'm committed to investigating the chapbook as form, versus chapbook 
as full-length teaser. This is why I am starting to commission projects 
specifically for Atticus/Finch-works that interrogate the mid-length poem, 
the short serial, the collaborative, etc. Hope you'll stay on board for the 
ride, and thanks for your continued support!]]

PPS. You're receiving these emails because we love you. If you've decided we 
need a little space, I guess we'll try to understand. Send a note to 
unsubscribe and I promise we won't sit in the dark in front of your house in 
a black, unmarked sedan drawing pictures of what we once were in lipstick.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/f814b9e0/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 15:01:17 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] optical nerve
References: <006601c6d9ad$239f9b70$56a83452@ANNY>
	<8f3fdbad0609161129x560c1c57xba0c4efba05b7ffc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f301c6d9c2$7d9c83d0$56a83452@ANNY>

Thank you Peter, and it is _Optic nerve_...

and you know that I do not like your browns, I remember telling you in a mail that raised a storm of appreciative mails for your work. From the outside one could have said that you had previously appointed me to do the dirty work, seen the reaction.
  From: Peter Ciccariello 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 8:29 PM


  Thanks for that link Anny, the Optic Nerve shorts are outstanding!
  -Peter Ciccariello


  On 9/16/06, Anny Ballardini < anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
    short videos, it takes some time to download them:
    http://www.opticnerve.co.uk/ModernAmericanPoets.htm 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/893f24db/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 15:09:48 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:09:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: concrete poetry invitation
Message-ID: <010c01c6d9c3$ae5bf4f0$56a83452@ANNY>

Bob?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Giles Goodland 
To: BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: concrete poetry invitation


This might be of interest to some people on this list:



From: "Clemente Padin" <7w1k4nc9 at adinet.com.uy>
Subject: Concrete Poetry - Poes?a Concreta
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:15:52 -0300
Invitation: 50 YEARS OF CONCRETE POETRY

>From Clemente Padin
This invitation is directed not only to the great community of visual poets of the whole world but and above all to specialists and lovers of poetry. At the end of this year, 2006, we will celebrate 50 years of the birth of one of the most important tendencies of visual poetry of the world: we refer to Concrete Poetry.

In December, 1956, the historic Art Concrete expositions began in Brazil giving birth to one of the most important artistic movements in the world in the second half of the XX century. The participant poets in those expositions were: Decio Pignatari, Augusto and Haroldo de Campos, Ronaldo Azeredo, Ferreira Gullar and Wlademir Dias-Pino. The first exposition took place in San Pablo, from 4 to 18 December, in the Art Modern Museum (MAM) and the next one was inaugurated in Rio de Janeiro, in February 7, 1957, in the vestibule of the Ministry of Education and Culture of Brazil.

Concrete Poetry arose, simultaneously, in Europe and in Latin American: in 1952 Noigandres group was founded in Sao Paulo; in 1953 the manifesto "For Concrete Poetry" of Oyvind Falstr?m appeared in Sweden and in 1953 "Constelaciones" of Eugen Gomringer, the Swiss-Bolivian poet, secretary of the Superior School of the Form of Ulm, Switzerland, heiress of the German Bahaus, appears in Switzerland. Gomringer and Pignatari were the one who coined the term Concrete Poetry  in 1955.

In homage to these outstanding events we invite you to send us notes, commentary, bibliography, photos, poems or documents that remember those historic moments to form a body of knowledge and works in relation to one of the last poetic movements we have known.  Send material to Clemente Padin?s email (7w1k4nc9 at adinet.com.uy). 

Subsequently, around November 2006, the selected material will be added to BOEK861, the website of Cesar Reglero, at the time  of the Colloquium on the 50 anniversary of concrete poetry that will be carried out in the University of Stuttgart, Germany, from 23 to 26 November, 2006.

The pictures and poems should be no larger than 300 KB in JPEG files of high resolution and, the texts on DIN A4, or letter-sized pages in Word files. Deadline for
receipt: 10 November 2006.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/c2eff586/attachment.html>

From skip at louisiana.edu  Sat Sep 16 16:15:29 2006
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:15:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review
In-Reply-To: <e50ab58e0609160730m731e68b4n8447dca397252942@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501c6d9cc$e12b1290$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

I'm not sure the link is working. Two different computers send me to a wall
of no returns that reads "cannot display."

 

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of L Trent
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 9:30 AM
To: poetics at listserv.buffalo.edu; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review

 

The second issue of 21 Stars Review ( <http://sundress/net/21stars>
http://sundress/net/21stars) is live! 

 

Featuring work by Glenn Bach, Dennis Barone, Jack Conway, Skip Fox, Jason
Fraley, Jeff Harrison, Nicolas Mansito III, Harmony Neal, T.A. Noonan, Becky
Peterson, Phil Primeau, Caleb Puckett, Bruce Holland Rogers, Natalie
Shapero, and Bill West.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/131bd08f/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 16 16:22:28 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:22:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review
References: <004501c6d9cc$e12b1290$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <016a01c6d9cd$d4b17300$56a83452@ANNY>

http://www.sundress.net/21stars/

:-)
and with some very interesting work, my favorite among the one I read: the prose poem by Dennis Barone (will never tell you what I read... 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Skip Fox 
  To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views' 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review


  I'm not sure the link is working. Two different computers send me to a wall of no returns that reads "cannot display."



  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of L Trent
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 9:30 AM
  To: poetics at listserv.buffalo.edu; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: [New-Poetry] 2nd Issue of 21 Stars Review



  The second issue of 21 Stars Review ( http://sundress/net/21stars) is live! 



  Featuring work by Glenn Bach, Dennis Barone, Jack Conway, Skip Fox, Jason Fraley, Jeff Harrison, Nicolas Mansito III, Harmony Neal, T.A. Noonan, Becky Peterson, Phil Primeau, Caleb Puckett, Bruce Holland Rogers, Natalie Shapero, and Bill West.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/5737b05f/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 16 16:26:08 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:26:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Accused Turkish Writer 
Message-ID: <001101c6d9ce$57fb3890$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Forwarding this note from my friend Boria Sax, poet, scholar and former head of his area's Amnesty International chapter. I think it's important.

Tad




Elif Shafak, a Turkish Writer of my acquaintance, as been arrested for "insulting Turkishness" and is awaiting trial this Thursday. The ground is a passage in her recent novel The Bastard of Istanbul, in which a character alludes to the genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Turkey, which some believe anticipated the Holocaust. An article about it from the New York Times may be found at: http://www.pen.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/814/prmID/172. 
As a child of the American left, I, personally, am reminded here of the denial of the crimes of Stalin in the milieu in which I was raised. Well, if anybody wants to send a short email to the Turkish embassy asking that charges against Elif Shafak be dropped, the name and email address are:  


Cc: H.E. Nabi ?ensoy
The Embassy of the Republic of Turkey
2525 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20008
Fax: (202) 612-6744 

Email: contact at turkishembassy.org



Many thanks.

Boria



Boria Sax, Ph.D.
25 Franklin Avenue, Apt. 2F
White Plains, NY 10601-3819
Phone: (914) 946-6735
Email: Vogelgreif at aol.com
Web Site: http://www.boriasax.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/b4d86c53/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Sep 16 17:07:38 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:07:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: concrete poetry invitation
References: <010c01c6d9c3$ae5bf4f0$56a83452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00d901c6d9d4$482de7e0$40b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for mentioning this, Anny--although I had seen it.  Sounds like quite a big event.

--Bob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 3:09 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: concrete poetry invitation


  Bob?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Giles Goodland 
  To: BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
  Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 11:33 AM
  Subject: concrete poetry invitation


  This might be of interest to some people on this list:



  From: "Clemente Padin" <7w1k4nc9 at adinet.com.uy>
  Subject: Concrete Poetry - Poes?a Concreta
  Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:15:52 -0300
  Invitation: 50 YEARS OF CONCRETE POETRY

  From Clemente Padin
  This invitation is directed not only to the great community of visual poets of the whole world but and above all to specialists and lovers of poetry. At the end of this year, 2006, we will celebrate 50 years of the birth of one of the most important tendencies of visual poetry of the world: we refer to Concrete Poetry.

  In December, 1956, the historic Art Concrete expositions began in Brazil giving birth to one of the most important artistic movements in the world in the second half of the XX century. The participant poets in those expositions were: Decio Pignatari, Augusto and Haroldo de Campos, Ronaldo Azeredo, Ferreira Gullar and Wlademir Dias-Pino. The first exposition took place in San Pablo, from 4 to 18 December, in the Art Modern Museum (MAM) and the next one was inaugurated in Rio de Janeiro, in February 7, 1957, in the vestibule of the Ministry of Education and Culture of Brazil.

  Concrete Poetry arose, simultaneously, in Europe and in Latin American: in 1952 Noigandres group was founded in Sao Paulo; in 1953 the manifesto "For Concrete Poetry" of Oyvind Falstr?m appeared in Sweden and in 1953 "Constelaciones" of Eugen Gomringer, the Swiss-Bolivian poet, secretary of the Superior School of the Form of Ulm, Switzerland, heiress of the German Bahaus, appears in Switzerland. Gomringer and Pignatari were the one who coined the term Concrete Poetry  in 1955.

  In homage to these outstanding events we invite you to send us notes, commentary, bibliography, photos, poems or documents that remember those historic moments to form a body of knowledge and works in relation to one of the last poetic movements we have known.  Send material to Clemente Padin?s email (7w1k4nc9 at adinet.com.uy). 

  Subsequently, around November 2006, the selected material will be added to BOEK861, the website of Cesar Reglero, at the time  of the Colloquium on the 50 anniversary of concrete poetry that will be carried out in the University of Stuttgart, Germany, from 23 to 26 November, 2006.

  The pictures and poems should be no larger than 300 KB in JPEG files of high resolution and, the texts on DIN A4, or letter-sized pages in Word files. Deadline for
  receipt: 10 November 2006.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/3f2c6c97/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 19:27:15 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:27:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Accused Turkish Writer
In-Reply-To: <001101c6d9ce$57fb3890$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <001101c6d9ce$57fb3890$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609161627k240f8ee5w7e6df8ee5cf83846@mail.gmail.com>

Tad,
I will forward this on to PEN New England's reedom to Write actioncommittee.  We conducted a letterwriting campaign last year for OrhanPamuk, who faced similar charges, and there was much talk aboutcontinuing the focus on Turkey.
I lived inTurkey for two years. Denial of the Armenian genocide is avery big issue over there, and more an more intellectuals and writersare challenging it and taking it on in their work.  I haven't readElif Shafak's work, but for anyone who is interested in knowing moreabout this, I highly recommend Panuk's novel "Snow".
Suzanne


On 9/16/06, TheOldMole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:>>> Forwarding this note from my friend Boria Sax, poet, scholar and former head> of his area's Amnesty International chapter. I think it's important.>> Tad>>>>> Elif Shafak, a Turkish Writer of my acquaintance, as been arrested for> "insulting Turkishness" and is awaiting trial this Thursday. The ground is a> passage in her recent novel The Bastard of Istanbul, in which a character> alludes to the genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Turkey, which some> believe anticipated the Holocaust. An article about it from the New York> Times may be found at:> http://www.pen.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/814/prmID/172.> As a child of the American left, I, personally, am reminded here of the> denial of the crimes of Stalin in the milieu in which I was raised. Well, if> anybody wants to send a short email to the Turkish embassy asking that> charges against Elif Shafak be dropped, the name and email address are:>>>>> Cc: H.E. Nabi ?ensoy> The Embassy of the Republic of Turkey> 2525 Massachusetts Ave. NW> Washington, DC 20008> Fax: (202) 612-6744>> Email: contact at turkishembassy.org>>>> Many thanks.>> Boria>>> Boria Sax, Ph.D.> 25 Franklin Avenue, Apt. 2F> White Plains, NY 10601-3819> Phone: (914) 946-6735> Email: Vogelgreif at aol.com> Web Site: http://www.boriasax.com> _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>>>

-- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets andwhat your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,'polish that, and you have style."
--Quentin Crisp


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Sep 16 22:34:35 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:34:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
Message-ID: <60D1166A-55CB-4B25-B364-86DABAAD5FC3@ripon.edu>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1603668.ece



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060916/d2774eb3/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep 17 08:10:48 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 08:10:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
References: <60D1166A-55CB-4B25-B364-86DABAAD5FC3@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002601c6da52$502edde0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I wonder what Mudcat.org is making of this -- that's a site for unreconstructed folkies who hate Dylan for going electric. And I wonder what I think of it, for that matter. I've stolen larger chunks than that to put into poems, but they weren't from other poems.

Here's one:

THE CROCODILE PEOPLE

 

They used to practice cannibalism, until 

they went away from the river 

when the colonists came. It's said 

they have some power over the crocodiles.

 

But since they pulled back, humans are scarce,

reptiles live in trees. Oh, you'll still hear 

the odd story - a child crunch'd, a maiden bathing

surprised by one, two, three, shuffling from the bank.

 

Mostly, though, things change. You lose the taste

for long pig, and make a virtue of it.

Crocodiles, neglected, no longer smile for you.

Their memory is ancient, but shallow.



The entire first stanza of that comes from a Johnny Weissmuller "Jungle Jim" movie, watched on TV one Saturday morning. I heard that line, grabbed the nearest envelope I could find, and wrote it down, knowing that it had some power over me, though I didn't know what. But that's "found poetry," finding the poetic in something that wasn't meant to be poetic. Dylan is finding the poetic in something that was meant to be poetic.  

The great blues composers, like Robert Johnson and Leadbelly, borrowed all the time from earlier songs -- it was an accepted practice. I've heard Leadbelly criticized because "Goodnight Irene" was -- in the critic's view -- essentially a rewrite of a sentimental 19th century lyric. And I've seen the poem in question, not that I could find it right now. It's terrible, and "Goodnight Irene" is a masterpiece. 

I probably shouldn't quote from myself twice in the same note, but this is maybe relevant in a different way. It's a -- not exactly a translation, because I was translating a memory of something I hadn't read in thirty years.


A PAINTER OF REALITY

 

--adapted from the memory of a poem by

 Jacques Prevert, read 30 years earlier

 

There's a story about a painter

  of reality in the South of France

  or one of those islands

  like Ibiza or Majorca

  where the sun's ego runs wild

  and color is a riot

  of civil disobedience

 

In front of this painter is an apple

  on a white plate

  on a window sill

  the color the sun decreed

  the painter of reality

  addresses the apple sternly

  orders it to reveal

  its external core

 

But the apple spins

  in its molecules

  prismatic to the sun's reality

  hermetic to the painter

  of reality

 

He breaks for lunch

  bread and cheese

  white wine

  a boiled potato

  leaving the apple

  to reflect on its self-absorption

 

At just that time

  along comes Picasso

  a spectral swirl

  a many-hued presence

  always where he's needed

 

And Picasso eats the apple

  and the apple says thanks

  and Picasso walks down to the ocean

  leaving a shower of seeds

  strewn across the plate



Prevert had the painter, and the apple, and Picasso, and the apple thanking Picasso for eating it; I'm not sure how much else. I credited him in my epigraph, but my poem was later set to music and recorded by Fred Koller (I think the album may have been released in Italy, Annie), and he didn't include the epigraph. I don't know if the frail flowers are going to be thanking Dylan, but I don't think they'll be cursing him.




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:34 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


  http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1603668.ece







  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060917/f3d41469/attachment.html>

From poetry at wildhoneypress.com  Sun Sep 17 08:25:47 2006
From: poetry at wildhoneypress.com (wild honey press)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 13:25:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wild Honey Press: 50th Title Out Now!
Message-ID: <00dd01c6da54$70835100$0201a8c0@hppavilion>

apologies for cross-posting

I'm delighted to announce the publication of the 50th title from Wild Honey 
Press: _The Moon Sees the One_ by Candice Ward.

14.5x21 cm, 44 pages, 250 gsm green Strata card cover, black endpapers, 
hand-sewn with dark green twist.
Price euro5 / USD 5 / STG 3.50.

"_The Moon Sees the One_ is preoccupied with vision and points of view. Even 
those poems that don't directly
address sight or perspective are shaped to be comprehended by the eye. Yet 
sound, too, is
emphasized, with the element of song reinforced by epigraphs drawn from 
popular music. The collection,
framed by poems concerned with vanishing, is also thematically unified by 
the confluence of blindness
and silence. Given its preoccupations, this chapbook may surprise readers 
with its often humorous tone,
while its passionate engagement with the relationship between desire and all 
five senses is unequivocally
serious."

Click on http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/TMSTO.htm to read some sample 
poems and see the cover image by artist Brendan Campbell.

If the wonders of e-mail has mangled the link, just go to 
www.wildhoneypress.com and take it from there.

Since literature is the best currency, I'm happy to swap a copy for poems in 
any form.

best

Randolph





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 17 09:05:27 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:05:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Accused Turkish Writer
References: <001101c6d9ce$57fb3890$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<aa458fec0609161627k240f8ee5w7e6df8ee5cf83846@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c6da59$f29e8f60$948d3052@ANNY>

Hi Tad,

I forwarded to the WOM-PO, I am sure they are interested in the case there.

From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:27 AM


> Tad,
> I will forward this on to PEN New England's reedom to Write 
> actioncommittee.  We conducted a letterwriting campaign last year for 
> OrhanPamuk, who faced similar charges, and there was much talk 
> aboutcontinuing the focus on Turkey.
> I lived inTurkey for two years. Denial of the Armenian genocide is avery 
> big issue over there, and more an more intellectuals and writersare 
> challenging it and taking it on in their work.  I haven't readElif 
> Shafak's work, but for anyone who is interested in knowing moreabout this, 
> I highly recommend Panuk's novel "Snow".
> Suzanne
>
>
> On 9/16/06, TheOldMole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:>>> Forwarding this note 
> from my friend Boria Sax, poet, scholar and former head> of his area's 
> Amnesty International chapter. I think it's important.>> Tad>>>>> Elif 
> Shafak, a Turkish Writer of my acquaintance, as been arrested for> 
> "insulting Turkishness" and is awaiting trial this Thursday. The ground is 
> a> passage in her recent novel The Bastard of Istanbul, in which a 
> character> alludes to the genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians by 
> Turkey, which some> believe anticipated the Holocaust. An article about it 
> from the New York> Times may be found at:> 
> http://www.pen.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/814/prmID/172.> As a child of the 
> American left, I, personally, am reminded here of the> denial of the 
> crimes of Stalin in the milieu in which I was raised. Well, if> anybody 
> wants to send a short email to the Turkish embassy asking that> charges 
> against Elif Shafak be dropped, the name and email address are:>>>>> Cc: 
> H.E. Nabi ?ensoy> Th!
> e Embassy of the Republic of Turkey> 2525 Massachusetts Ave. NW> 
> Washington, DC 20008> Fax: (202) 612-6744>> Email: 
> contact at turkishembassy.org>>>> Many thanks.>> Boria>>> Boria Sax, Ph.D.> 
> 25 Franklin Avenue, Apt. 2F> White Plains, NY 10601-3819> Phone: (914) 
> 946-6735> Email: Vogelgreif at aol.com> Web Site: http://www.boriasax.com> 
> _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>>>
>
> -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets 
> andwhat your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,'polish 
> that, and you have style."
> --Quentin Crisp




From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Mon Sep 18 18:42:50 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:42:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
References: <60D1166A-55CB-4B25-B364-86DABAAD5FC3@ripon.edu>
	<002601c6da52$502edde0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <005a01c6db73$c718efa0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

A fact not probably widely known on either side of the Atlantic is that 'Goodnight Irene' is the fan song of the Bristol Rovers football club; now to hear the song burred in a scrumpy fueled 'Brissol' West Country is an experience and a perspective beyond Leadbelly. I have no idea where they picked up the song from, but it comes out as if a traditional rural English folk song (even though Bristol is urban)

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TheOldMole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


  I wonder what Mudcat.org is making of this -- that's a site for unreconstructed folkies who hate Dylan for going electric. And I wonder what I think of it, for that matter. I've stolen larger chunks than that to put into poems, but they weren't from other poems.

  Here's one:

  THE CROCODILE PEOPLE

   

  They used to practice cannibalism, until 

  they went away from the river 

  when the colonists came. It's said 

  they have some power over the crocodiles.

   

  But since they pulled back, humans are scarce,

  reptiles live in trees. Oh, you'll still hear 

  the odd story - a child crunch'd, a maiden bathing

  surprised by one, two, three, shuffling from the bank.

   

  Mostly, though, things change. You lose the taste

  for long pig, and make a virtue of it.

  Crocodiles, neglected, no longer smile for you.

  Their memory is ancient, but shallow.



  The entire first stanza of that comes from a Johnny Weissmuller "Jungle Jim" movie, watched on TV one Saturday morning. I heard that line, grabbed the nearest envelope I could find, and wrote it down, knowing that it had some power over me, though I didn't know what. But that's "found poetry," finding the poetic in something that wasn't meant to be poetic. Dylan is finding the poetic in something that was meant to be poetic.  

  The great blues composers, like Robert Johnson and Leadbelly, borrowed all the time from earlier songs -- it was an accepted practice. I've heard Leadbelly criticized because "Goodnight Irene" was -- in the critic's view -- essentially a rewrite of a sentimental 19th century lyric. And I've seen the poem in question, not that I could find it right now. It's terrible, and "Goodnight Irene" is a masterpiece. 

  I probably shouldn't quote from myself twice in the same note, but this is maybe relevant in a different way. It's a -- not exactly a translation, because I was translating a memory of something I hadn't read in thirty years.


  A PAINTER OF REALITY

   

  --adapted from the memory of a poem by

   Jacques Prevert, read 30 years earlier

   

  There's a story about a painter

    of reality in the South of France

    or one of those islands

    like Ibiza or Majorca

    where the sun's ego runs wild

    and color is a riot

    of civil disobedience

   

  In front of this painter is an apple

    on a white plate

    on a window sill

    the color the sun decreed

    the painter of reality

    addresses the apple sternly

    orders it to reveal

    its external core

   

  But the apple spins

    in its molecules

    prismatic to the sun's reality

    hermetic to the painter

    of reality

   

  He breaks for lunch

    bread and cheese

    white wine

    a boiled potato

    leaving the apple

    to reflect on its self-absorption

   

  At just that time

    along comes Picasso

    a spectral swirl

    a many-hued presence

    always where he's needed

   

  And Picasso eats the apple

    and the apple says thanks

    and Picasso walks down to the ocean

    leaving a shower of seeds

    strewn across the plate



  Prevert had the painter, and the apple, and Picasso, and the apple thanking Picasso for eating it; I'm not sure how much else. I credited him in my epigraph, but my poem was later set to music and recorded by Fred Koller (I think the album may have been released in Italy, Annie), and he didn't include the epigraph. I don't know if the frail flowers are going to be thanking Dylan, but I don't think they'll be cursing him.




    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: David Graham 
    To: NewPoetry &amp; Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:34 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1603668.ece 







    ==========================================

    David Graham

    grahamd at ripon.edu

    Home Page:

    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

    Poetry Library:

    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

    ==========================================










----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060918/f340bc35/attachment.html>

From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 19 00:43:55 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:43:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
In-Reply-To: <005a01c6db73$c718efa0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <60D1166A-55CB-4B25-B364-86DABAAD5FC3@ripon.edu>
	<002601c6da52$502edde0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<005a01c6db73$c718efa0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <60E99BCD-4341-4498-9A57-2E18ABF4BE04@earthlink.net>

Thanks Dave--

And perhaps similarly
"Voice, fiddle and flute
No longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name
& inspire you to boot"
are
the original words to the melody commonly sung in the states
to  words
about Bombs and rockets giving proof that a flag was/is still there....


On Sep 18, 2006, at 3:42 PM, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> A fact not probably widely known on either side of the Atlantic is  
> that 'Goodnight Irene' is the fan song of the Bristol Rovers  
> football club; now to hear the song burred in a scrumpy fueled  
> 'Brissol' West Country is an experience and a perspective beyond  
> Leadbelly. I have no idea where they picked up the song from, but  
> it comes out as if a traditional rural English folk song (even  
> though Bristol is urban)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TheOldMole
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
>
> I wonder what Mudcat.org is making of this -- that's a site for  
> unreconstructed folkies who hate Dylan for going electric. And I  
> wonder what I think of it, for that matter. I've stolen larger  
> chunks than that to put into poems, but they weren't from other poems.
>
> Here's one:
>
> THE CROCODILE PEOPLE
>
> They used to practice cannibalism, until
> they went away from the river
> when the colonists came. It?s said
> they have some power over the crocodiles.
>
> But since they pulled back, humans are scarce,
> reptiles live in trees. Oh, you?ll still hear
> the odd story ? a child crunch?d, a maiden bathing
> surprised by one, two, three, shuffling from the bank.
>
> Mostly, though, things change. You lose the taste
> for long pig, and make a virtue of it.
> Crocodiles, neglected, no longer smile for you.
> Their memory is ancient, but shallow.
>
>
> The entire first stanza of that comes from a Johnny Weissmuller  
> "Jungle Jim" movie, watched on TV one Saturday morning. I heard  
> that line, grabbed the nearest envelope I could find, and wrote it  
> down, knowing that it had some power over me, though I didn't know  
> what. But that's "found poetry," finding the poetic in something  
> that wasn't meant to be poetic. Dylan is finding the poetic in  
> something that was meant to be poetic.
>
> The great blues composers, like Robert Johnson and Leadbelly,  
> borrowed all the time from earlier songs -- it was an accepted  
> practice. I've heard Leadbelly criticized because "Goodnight Irene"  
> was -- in the critic's view -- essentially a rewrite of a  
> sentimental 19th century lyric. And I've seen the poem in question,  
> not that I could find it right now. It's terrible, and "Goodnight  
> Irene" is a masterpiece.
>
> I probably shouldn't quote from myself twice in the same note, but  
> this is maybe relevant in a different way. It's a -- not exactly a  
> translation, because I was translating a memory of something I  
> hadn't read in thirty years.
>
>
> A PAINTER OF REALITY
>
> ??adapted from the memory of a poem by
>  Jacques Prevert, read 30 years earlier
>
> There's a story about a painter
>   of reality in the South of France
>   or one of those islands
>   like Ibiza or Majorca
>   where the sun's ego runs wild
>   and color is a riot
>   of civil disobedience
>
> In front of this painter is an apple
>   on a white plate
>   on a window sill
>   the color the sun decreed
>   the painter of reality
>   addresses the apple sternly
>   orders it to reveal
>   its external core
>
> But the apple spins
>   in its molecules
>   prismatic to the sun's reality
>   hermetic to the painter
>   of reality
>
> He breaks for lunch
>   bread and cheese
>   white wine
>   a boiled potato
>   leaving the apple
>   to reflect on its self?absorption
>
> At just that time
>   along comes Picasso
>   a spectral swirl
>   a many?hued presence
>   always where he's needed
>
> And Picasso eats the apple
>   and the apple says thanks
>   and Picasso walks down to the ocean
>   leaving a shower of seeds
>   strewn across the plate
>
>
> Prevert had the painter, and the apple, and Picasso, and the apple  
> thanking Picasso for eating it; I'm not sure how much else. I  
> credited him in my epigraph, but my poem was later set to music and  
> recorded by Fred Koller (I think the album may have been released  
> in Italy, Annie), and he didn't include the epigraph. I don't know  
> if the frail flowers are going to be thanking Dylan, but I don't  
> think they'll be cursing him.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Graham
> To: NewPoetry &amp; Views
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:34 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
>
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1603668.ece
>
>
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060918/66a8c2c9/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 18 18:31:45 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:31:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Found Prose Political Sonnet: Bush Clears the Way for
	Corporate Domination"
Message-ID: <C055CE75-458E-42B2-81A6-44637C608063@earthlink.net>

Found Prose Political Sonnet:  Bush Clears the Way for Corporate  
Domination

When George W. Bush says that he wants to spread freedom to every  
corner of the earth,
he means it. But, of course, the president who turned Soviet-era  
gulags into secret CIA
prisons in order to do God-knows-what to God-knows-whom isn't talking  
about
individual freedom. He means corporate freedom?freedom for the great  
multinationals

to extract everything they can from the world's resources and labor  
without the hindrance
of public interest laws, environmental regulations or worker  
protections. Bush's vision
of a free world actually looks just like the corporate globalization  
agenda pushed by
a succession of American presidents in institutions like the World  
Trade Organization.

But this administration yearns for freedom too much to leave it up to  
trade negotiators.
Unlike his predecessors, Bush isn't content to use carrots and sticks  
and a liberal dose of
arm-twisting to advance that agenda. His administration has made the  
neoliberal policies
euphemistically referred to as "free-trade" a centerpiece of its  
national security policy.

Bush is willing to use the awesome force of the United States military
to guarantee the freedom of the world's largest multinationals.



[Source: Joshua Holland, AlterNet
Posted on May 5, 2006, Printed on May 7, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/35846/]


Hal

Today's Special

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org




From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 06:22:34 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 03:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <20060918102234.29946.qmail@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/


*****************************************
reading Tuesday 9/19 in Philadelphia
with Eileen R. Tabios
at The Bubble House, 3404 Sansom, 7:30 PM
(Craig Bickhardt, musical guest)
*****************************************


RECENT POSTS

Questioning Steve Benson

Why is Lisa Robertson 
the most read poet
in the annual Attention Span survey
once again?

Stephanie Young???s breakthrough book
Telling the Future Off

Squandering the American century
(notes on 9/11 five years on)

Fanny Howe???s
war on terror

Notes on two readings

Brooklyn Rail
and the sale of Cody???s

The backup bands
of Bob Dylan
(one vote for Paul Butterfield)

The secret of The Illusionist
is that male character actors
make for good leads

Michael Knight will win
Project Runway

The ear of Laura Elrick

Cleaning the uncleanable
(nuclear waste in Hanford, WA)

Motherless Brooklyn
a marvelous ear tinged with Tourette???s syndrome

Context is everything ???
further thoughts on the anonymous issue of Sal Mimeo

Reading Shakespeare in Zukofsky???s Julia???s Wild

What about all this feminism?
Rachel Blau DuPlessis??? Blue Studios

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/



From letitia.trent at gmail.com  Sun Sep 17 15:03:33 2006
From: letitia.trent at gmail.com (L Trent)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:03:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] corrected 21 Stars URL (someday I will learn to type)
Message-ID: <e50ab58e0609171203j20f28795vf8bb28651b1571d@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to Skip Fox for the heads up on my URL error on the last e-mail.

The second issue of 21 Stars Review ( http://sundress.net/21stars) is live!



 Featuring work by Glenn Bach, Dennis Barone, Jack Conway, Skip Fox, Jason
Fraley, Jeff Harrison, Nicolas Mansito III, Harmony Neal, T.A. Noonan, Becky
Peterson, Phil Primeau, Caleb Puckett, Bruce Holland Rogers, Natalie
Shapero, and Bill West.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060917/8c1ef554/attachment.html>

From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 04:33:57 2006
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:33:57 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for submissions
Message-ID: <BAY23-F690DBD65C2034F9FB31B08A220@phx.gbl>

hello,

Poetry Sz: demystifying mental illness, an e-zine found at 
http://poetrysz.blogspot.com is calling for submissions. Send 4-6 poems in 
the body of your email along with a short bio to poetrysz at yahoo.com . Please 
read the submission guidelines before submitting.

thanks.

J Chan
editor

_________________________________________________________________
Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals 
http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid=200731



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 19 08:57:18 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:57:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
Message-ID: <C135535E.B7C1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Uncle
 
I remember the forehead born
before Abraham 
and flecked with white paint,
the two hands kneading
each other at the sink.
In the basement on Grand
he showed me 
his radio, 
Manila, Atlantis, 
the cities of the burning plains,
the coupons 
in comic books, the ads of the air.
Prophet of burned cars
and broken fans, he taught
the toilet the eternal,
argued the Talmud 
under his nails. The long boats
with the names of winds
set sail 
in the sea of his blind eye.
 
How could he come 
humpbacked 
in his crisp undershirt
on the front porch in black Detroit
bringing in the milk,
the newspaper, the bills
long past noon? His truck howls
all night to Benton Harbor, Saginaw,
Dog of the Prairie.
In the high work camps
the men break toward dawn.
He sleeps under a mountain.
Uncle, I call you again Uncle,
I come too late 
with a bottle of milk
and a chipped cup of Schnapps
to loosen your fever, undo
your arms and legs 
so you can rise 
above Belle Isle and the Straits,
your clear eye 
rid of our rooms forever,
the glass of fat, the blue flame.
 
--Philip Levine. 1933. Atheneum, 1974.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 09:00:54 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 09:00:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Like Decorations in a Cemetery
Message-ID: <37f.b27e752.32414406@aol.com>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060919/daae7eeb/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: Like Decorations in a Cemetery
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:55:43 EDT
Size: 9430
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060919/daae7eeb/attachment.mht>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 19 09:45:51 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:45:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
References: <C135535E.B7C1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008101c6dbf1$ec3bef70$29eb3652@ANNY>

I read almost all the poem until I reached the name of the author, thinking 
it was written by a young woman.

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:57 PM


> Uncle
>
> I remember the forehead born
> before Abraham
> and flecked with white paint,
> the two hands kneading
> each other at the sink.
> In the basement on Grand
> he showed me
> his radio,
> Manila, Atlantis,
> the cities of the burning plains,
> the coupons
> in comic books, the ads of the air.
> Prophet of burned cars
> and broken fans, he taught
> the toilet the eternal,
> argued the Talmud
> under his nails. The long boats
> with the names of winds
> set sail
> in the sea of his blind eye.
>
> How could he come
> humpbacked
> in his crisp undershirt
> on the front porch in black Detroit
> bringing in the milk,
> the newspaper, the bills
> long past noon? His truck howls
> all night to Benton Harbor, Saginaw,
> Dog of the Prairie.
> In the high work camps
> the men break toward dawn.
> He sleeps under a mountain.
> Uncle, I call you again Uncle,
> I come too late
> with a bottle of milk
> and a chipped cup of Schnapps
> to loosen your fever, undo
> your arms and legs
> so you can rise
> above Belle Isle and the Straits,
> your clear eye
> rid of our rooms forever,
> the glass of fat, the blue flame.
>
> --Philip Levine. 1933. Atheneum, 1974.
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 19 09:59:33 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 09:59:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet
References: <60D1166A-55CB-4B25-B364-86DABAAD5FC3@ripon.edu><002601c6da52$502edde0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<005a01c6db73$c718efa0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <003001c6dbf3$d620d690$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Probably from Lonnie Donegan.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Bircumshaw 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 6:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


  A fact not probably widely known on either side of the Atlantic is that 'Goodnight Irene' is the fan song of the Bristol Rovers football club; now to hear the song burred in a scrumpy fueled 'Brissol' West Country is an experience and a perspective beyond Leadbelly. I have no idea where they picked up the song from, but it comes out as if a traditional rural English folk song (even though Bristol is urban)

  Best

  Dave


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: TheOldMole 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:10 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


    I wonder what Mudcat.org is making of this -- that's a site for unreconstructed folkies who hate Dylan for going electric. And I wonder what I think of it, for that matter. I've stolen larger chunks than that to put into poems, but they weren't from other poems.

    Here's one:

    THE CROCODILE PEOPLE

     

    They used to practice cannibalism, until 

    they went away from the river 

    when the colonists came. It's said 

    they have some power over the crocodiles.

     

    But since they pulled back, humans are scarce,

    reptiles live in trees. Oh, you'll still hear 

    the odd story - a child crunch'd, a maiden bathing

    surprised by one, two, three, shuffling from the bank.

     

    Mostly, though, things change. You lose the taste

    for long pig, and make a virtue of it.

    Crocodiles, neglected, no longer smile for you.

    Their memory is ancient, but shallow.



    The entire first stanza of that comes from a Johnny Weissmuller "Jungle Jim" movie, watched on TV one Saturday morning. I heard that line, grabbed the nearest envelope I could find, and wrote it down, knowing that it had some power over me, though I didn't know what. But that's "found poetry," finding the poetic in something that wasn't meant to be poetic. Dylan is finding the poetic in something that was meant to be poetic.  

    The great blues composers, like Robert Johnson and Leadbelly, borrowed all the time from earlier songs -- it was an accepted practice. I've heard Leadbelly criticized because "Goodnight Irene" was -- in the critic's view -- essentially a rewrite of a sentimental 19th century lyric. And I've seen the poem in question, not that I could find it right now. It's terrible, and "Goodnight Irene" is a masterpiece. 

    I probably shouldn't quote from myself twice in the same note, but this is maybe relevant in a different way. It's a -- not exactly a translation, because I was translating a memory of something I hadn't read in thirty years.


    A PAINTER OF REALITY

     

    --adapted from the memory of a poem by

     Jacques Prevert, read 30 years earlier

     

    There's a story about a painter

      of reality in the South of France

      or one of those islands

      like Ibiza or Majorca

      where the sun's ego runs wild

      and color is a riot

      of civil disobedience

     

    In front of this painter is an apple

      on a white plate

      on a window sill

      the color the sun decreed

      the painter of reality

      addresses the apple sternly

      orders it to reveal

      its external core

     

    But the apple spins

      in its molecules

      prismatic to the sun's reality

      hermetic to the painter

      of reality

     

    He breaks for lunch

      bread and cheese

      white wine

      a boiled potato

      leaving the apple

      to reflect on its self-absorption

     

    At just that time

      along comes Picasso

      a spectral swirl

      a many-hued presence

      always where he's needed

     

    And Picasso eats the apple

      and the apple says thanks

      and Picasso walks down to the ocean

      leaving a shower of seeds

      strewn across the plate



    Prevert had the painter, and the apple, and Picasso, and the apple thanking Picasso for eating it; I'm not sure how much else. I credited him in my epigraph, but my poem was later set to music and recorded by Fred Koller (I think the album may have been released in Italy, Annie), and he didn't include the epigraph. I don't know if the frail flowers are going to be thanking Dylan, but I don't think they'll be cursing him.




      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: David Graham 
      To: NewPoetry &amp; Views 
      Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:34 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Dylan, Plagiarist Poet


      http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1603668.ece 







      ==========================================

      David Graham

      grahamd at ripon.edu

      Home Page:

      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

      Poetry Library:

      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

      ==========================================










--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060919/d8cc8970/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 19 11:22:28 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 10:22:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
In-Reply-To: <008101c6dbf1$ec3bef70$29eb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <C1357564.B7D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

This is probably the first time Philip Levine was mistaken for a young
woman!


On 9/19/06 8:45 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> I read almost all the poem until I reached the name of the author, thinking
> it was written by a young woman.
> 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:57 PM
> 
> 
>> Uncle
>> 
>> I remember the forehead born
>> before Abraham
>> and flecked with white paint,
>> the two hands kneading
>> each other at the sink.
>> In the basement on Grand
>> he showed me
>> his radio,
>> Manila, Atlantis,
>> the cities of the burning plains,
>> the coupons
>> in comic books, the ads of the air.
>> Prophet of burned cars
>> and broken fans, he taught
>> the toilet the eternal,
>> argued the Talmud
>> under his nails. The long boats
>> with the names of winds
>> set sail
>> in the sea of his blind eye.
>> 
>> How could he come
>> humpbacked
>> in his crisp undershirt
>> on the front porch in black Detroit
>> bringing in the milk,
>> the newspaper, the bills
>> long past noon? His truck howls
>> all night to Benton Harbor, Saginaw,
>> Dog of the Prairie.
>> In the high work camps
>> the men break toward dawn.
>> He sleeps under a mountain.
>> Uncle, I call you again Uncle,
>> I come too late
>> with a bottle of milk
>> and a chipped cup of Schnapps
>> to loosen your fever, undo
>> your arms and legs
>> so you can rise
>> above Belle Isle and the Straits,
>> your clear eye
>> rid of our rooms forever,
>> the glass of fat, the blue flame.
>> 
>> --Philip Levine. 1933. Atheneum, 1974.
>> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 19 11:40:09 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:40:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
References: <C1357564.B7D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007801c6dc01$e39cf430$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

A poem on uncles was seen,
Could it be the work of a queen?
Or a maiden full blushing
>From Scarsdale or Flushing?
Uh-uh...it was Philip Levine!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame


> This is probably the first time Philip Levine was mistaken for a young
> woman!
>
>
> On 9/19/06 8:45 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>> I read almost all the poem until I reached the name of the author, 
>> thinking
>> it was written by a young woman.
>>
>> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:57 PM
>>
>>
>>> Uncle
>>>
>>> I remember the forehead born
>>> before Abraham
>>> and flecked with white paint,
>>> the two hands kneading
>>> each other at the sink.
>>> In the basement on Grand
>>> he showed me
>>> his radio,
>>> Manila, Atlantis,
>>> the cities of the burning plains,
>>> the coupons
>>> in comic books, the ads of the air.
>>> Prophet of burned cars
>>> and broken fans, he taught
>>> the toilet the eternal,
>>> argued the Talmud
>>> under his nails. The long boats
>>> with the names of winds
>>> set sail
>>> in the sea of his blind eye.
>>>
>>> How could he come
>>> humpbacked
>>> in his crisp undershirt
>>> on the front porch in black Detroit
>>> bringing in the milk,
>>> the newspaper, the bills
>>> long past noon? His truck howls
>>> all night to Benton Harbor, Saginaw,
>>> Dog of the Prairie.
>>> In the high work camps
>>> the men break toward dawn.
>>> He sleeps under a mountain.
>>> Uncle, I call you again Uncle,
>>> I come too late
>>> with a bottle of milk
>>> and a chipped cup of Schnapps
>>> to loosen your fever, undo
>>> your arms and legs
>>> so you can rise
>>> above Belle Isle and the Straits,
>>> your clear eye
>>> rid of our rooms forever,
>>> the glass of fat, the blue flame.
>>>
>>> --Philip Levine. 1933. Atheneum, 1974.
>>>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 19 11:46:08 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:46:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
References: <C1357564.B7D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00ad01c6dc02$b990d5c0$29eb3652@ANNY>

and he is one of my favs, opps I am one of his fans, ...

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:22 PM


> This is probably the first time Philip Levine was mistaken for a young
> woman!
>
>
> On 9/19/06 8:45 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
>
>> I read almost all the poem until I reached the name of the author, 
>> thinking
>> it was written by a young woman.
>>
>> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:57 PM
>>
>>
>>> Uncle
>>>
>>> I remember the forehead born
>>> before Abraham
>>> and flecked with white paint,
>>> the two hands kneading
>>> each other at the sink.
>>> In the basement on Grand
>>> he showed me
>>> his radio,
>>> Manila, Atlantis,
>>> the cities of the burning plains,
>>> the coupons
>>> in comic books, the ads of the air.
>>> Prophet of burned cars
>>> and broken fans, he taught
>>> the toilet the eternal,
>>> argued the Talmud
>>> under his nails. The long boats
>>> with the names of winds
>>> set sail
>>> in the sea of his blind eye.
>>>
>>> How could he come
>>> humpbacked
>>> in his crisp undershirt
>>> on the front porch in black Detroit
>>> bringing in the milk,
>>> the newspaper, the bills
>>> long past noon? His truck howls
>>> all night to Benton Harbor, Saginaw,
>>> Dog of the Prairie.
>>> In the high work camps
>>> the men break toward dawn.
>>> He sleeps under a mountain.
>>> Uncle, I call you again Uncle,
>>> I come too late
>>> with a bottle of milk
>>> and a chipped cup of Schnapps
>>> to loosen your fever, undo
>>> your arms and legs
>>> so you can rise
>>> above Belle Isle and the Straits,
>>> your clear eye
>>> rid of our rooms forever,
>>> the glass of fat, the blue flame.
>>>
>>> --Philip Levine. 1933. Atheneum, 1974.
>>>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 19 11:49:31 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:49:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
References: <C1357564.B7D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<007801c6dc01$e39cf430$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <00b201c6dc03$32f46d50$29eb3652@ANNY>

did you invent it right there?
I mean,
...
you are not suffering from the side-effects 
                    of structuralism
                    & subphonemes 

as I am, or?

From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:40 PM


>A poem on uncles was seen,
> Could it be the work of a queen?
> Or a maiden full blushing
>>From Scarsdale or Flushing?
> Uh-uh...it was Philip Levine!




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 14:59:59 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:59:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
Message-ID: <324.beedc20.3241982f@aol.com>

I guess you never saw the infamous pictures from his table dancing days in  
Detroit ;-)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060919/804c0750/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 19 15:21:51 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:21:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame
References: <324.beedc20.3241982f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c6dc20$dc3b8430$2dab3852@ANNY>

Direct me please if there is a link or something (path in the woods, trail on water, asterisk, databank, breakfast,
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The glass of fat, the blue flame


  I guess you never saw the infamous pictures from his table dancing days in Detroit ;-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060919/cdaa1b26/attachment.html>

From lattaj at umich.edu  Wed Sep 20 08:22:48 2006
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently, Isola di Rifiuti 
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0609200808420.15740@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>


Guy Debord and Jack Spicer
A Glob or Two of Javier Marias
Ron Silliman Counts Beans
Marias Against the Living of One's Life in Advance
Foxglove
For Metaphor
A Legal Pencil
Charles Bernstein Condescends to Bob Dylan

That and the usual "Photographs, Malarkey, & Guff" at:

http://isola-di-rifiuti.blogspot.com/

John Latta


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Sep 17 15:58:56 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:58:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] You say it's your birthday?  It's my birthday too
Message-ID: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu>

Born on this day:   Hank AND William Carlos Williams.

To Elsie

        William Carlos Williams




        The pure products of America
        go crazy--
        mountain folk from Kentucky

        or the ribbed north end of
        Jersey
        with its isolate lakes and

        valleys, its deaf-mutes, thieves
        old names
        and promiscuity between

        devil-may-care men who have taken
        to railroading
        out of sheer lust of adventure--

        and young slatterns, bathed
        in filth
        from Monday to Saturday

        to be tricked out that night
        with gauds
        from imaginations which have no

        peasant traditions to give them
        character
        but flutter and flaunt

        sheer rags-succumbing without
        emotion
        save numbed terror

        under some hedge of choke-cherry
        or viburnum-
        which they cannot express--

        Unless it be that marriage
        perhaps
        with a dash of Indian blood

        will throw up a girl so desolate
        so hemmed round
        with disease or murder

        that she'll be rescued by an
        agent--
        reared by the state and

        sent out at fifteen to work in
        some hard-pressed
        house in the suburbs--

        some doctor's family, some Elsie--
        voluptuous water
        expressing with broken

        brain the truth about us--
        her great
        ungainly hips and flopping breasts

        addressed to cheap
        jewelry
        and rich young men with fine eyes

        as if the earth under our feet
        were
        an excrement of some sky

        and we degraded prisoners
        destined
        to hunger until we eat filth

        while the imagination strains
        after deer
        going by fields of goldenrod in

        the stifling heat of September
        Somehow
        it seems to destroy us

        It is only in isolate flecks that
        something
        is given off

        No one
        to witness
        and adjust, no one to drive the car
==============

I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry



Hear that lonesome whipporwill

He sounds too blue to fly

The midnight train is whinin' low

I'm so lonesome I could cry



I've never seen a night so long

When time goes crawling by

The moon just went behind the clouds

To hide its face and cry



Did you ever see a Robin weep

When leaves begin to die

That mean's he's lost his will to live

I'm so lonesome I could cry



The silence of a falling star

Lights up a purple sky

And as I wonder where you are

I'm so lonesome I could cry

  --Hank Williams




==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060917/f83eb3fe/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 20 13:38:19 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:38:19 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] You say it's your birthday?  It's my birthday too
References: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007001c6dcdb$90500670$88af3452@ANNY>

No comments this time
just that these are beautiful poems,
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:58 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] You say it's your birthday? It's my birthday too


  Born on this day:   Hank AND William Carlos Williams.


  To Elsie


         William Carlos Williams




         The pure products of America
         go crazy--
         mountain folk from Kentucky

         or the ribbed north end of 
         Jersey
         with its isolate lakes and

         valleys, its deaf-mutes, thieves
         old names
         and promiscuity between

         devil-may-care men who have taken
         to railroading
         out of sheer lust of adventure--

         and young slatterns, bathed
         in filth
         from Monday to Saturday

         to be tricked out that night
         with gauds
         from imaginations which have no

         peasant traditions to give them
         character
         but flutter and flaunt

         sheer rags-succumbing without
         emotion
         save numbed terror

         under some hedge of choke-cherry
         or viburnum-
         which they cannot express--

         Unless it be that marriage
         perhaps
         with a dash of Indian blood

         will throw up a girl so desolate
         so hemmed round
         with disease or murder

         that she'll be rescued by an 
         agent--
         reared by the state and

         sent out at fifteen to work in
         some hard-pressed
         house in the suburbs--

         some doctor's family, some Elsie--
         voluptuous water
         expressing with broken

         brain the truth about us--
         her great
         ungainly hips and flopping breasts

         addressed to cheap
         jewelry
         and rich young men with fine eyes

         as if the earth under our feet
         were
         an excrement of some sky

         and we degraded prisoners
         destined
         to hunger until we eat filth

         while the imagination strains
         after deer
         going by fields of goldenrod in

         the stifling heat of September
         Somehow
         it seems to destroy us

         It is only in isolate flecks that
         something
         is given off

         No one
         to witness
         and adjust, no one to drive the car
  ==============


  I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry



  Hear that lonesome whipporwill 

  He sounds too blue to fly 

  The midnight train is whinin' low 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry 



  I've never seen a night so long 

  When time goes crawling by 

  The moon just went behind the clouds 

  To hide its face and cry 



  Did you ever see a Robin weep 

  When leaves begin to die 

  That mean's he's lost his will to live 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry 



  The silence of a falling star 

  Lights up a purple sky 

  And as I wonder where you are 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry

   --Hank Williams








  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060920/64cbffad/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 20 15:41:27 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:41:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] You say it's your birthday?  It's my birthday too
Message-ID: <1912.1158781287@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060920/a31d5b38/attachment.html>

From edmundhardy at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 19:07:09 2006
From: edmundhardy at hotmail.com (Edmund Hardy)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:07:09 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Intercapillary Space": july - september
In-Reply-To: <200609201935.k8KJZBoQ032069@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY126-F867517BC09EFDE9A4B9A7BA230@phx.gbl>

http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2006/09/july-september-contents.html
"a great number of the simple ideas" - John Locke


POEMS

Jon Clay
     [#] 'Windblast a vibrating. . .'
          Pyrite (Flare Hope)

Ian Davidson
     [#] Baltic
     [#] From Partly in Riga

Michael Egan
     [#] turnstile

AnnMarie Eldon
     [#] scrubbing up
          days
          house calls and the slattern's self-disparaging emesis

D. S. Marriott
     [#] From Speak Low: Poem To Jonas

rob mclennan
     [#] last night: thirteen lines

Daniel Nester
     [#] Two Douglas Rothschild Laments
          To Be Imperfect, To Be

Dawn Pendergast
     [#] From Zoo Po Day
     [#] Hi mouse.
          The Even
          bugs

Mark Scroggins
     [#] Fl?neur
          'The spillage of sunlight...'

Lawrence Upton
     [#] i.m. barry macsweeney
     [#] Marcus Vergette



ESSAYS

[#] John Muckle: Sir Philip in South America

[#] Edmund Hardy: Umbrellas: The Blown Network



BOOK REVIEWS

[#] Mair?ad Byrne, Vivas

[#] Catherine Daly, To Delite and Instruct

[#] Jeff Hilson, Stretchers

[#] Jeff Hilson, Bird Bird

[#] Emma Lew, Anything The Landlord Touches

[#] Mario Petrucci, Catullus

[#] Lisa Robertson, The Men

[#] Leslie Scalapino and Marina Adams, The Tango



DOUGLAS OLIVER SYMPOSIUM

[#] Pierre Joris: The Tea-Brown Light Of Kindness

[#] Ralph Hawkins: Douglas Oliver's Diagram Poems

[#] Nina Davies: Reading A Salvo for Africa

[#] Robert Sheppard: Coincidence and Contraries: Two extracts for Douglas 
Oliver

[#] Alan Hay: A sort of public thank-you to Douglas Oliver

[#] Ian Davidson: An Island that is all the World ? an unfinished 
conversation over a number of incomplete rounds. I finish, as always, on the 
ropes and gasping for breath, casting glances at my corner and wondering if 
I'll ever reach it.

[#] Laura Steele: Comedy and the Conceptual in Douglas Oliver's The Harmless 
Building

[#] Peter Riley: Comment on Ralph Hawkins' piece--

[#] Abena Sutherland: Comment on Ian Davidson's piece --

[#] Melissa Flores-B?rquez: A note on Douglas Oliver's 'A Salvo for Malawi'




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep 20 20:33:35 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:33:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] You say it's your birthday?  It's my birthday too
References: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004801c6dd15$94e07eb0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry



  Hear that lonesome whipporwill 

  He sounds too blue to fly 

  The midnight train is whinin' low 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry 



  I've never seen a night so long 

  When time goes crawling by 

  The moon just went behind the clouds 

  To hide its face and cry 



  Did you ever see a Robin weep 

  When leaves begin to die 

  That mean's he's lost his will to live 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry 



  The silence of a falling star 

  Lights up a purple sky 

  And as I wonder where you are 

  I'm so lonesome I could cry

   --Hank Williams



  I haven't read a Rod McKuen poem in a while, but the above sure reminds me of him.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060920/1472cd3a/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 20 21:10:04 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:10:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
In-Reply-To: <004801c6dd15$94e07eb0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu>
	<004801c6dd15$94e07eb0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <27E255AE-77B7-4532-A742-1D0A5F19F272@ripon.edu>


On Sep 20, 2006, at 7:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> I'm so lonesome I could cry
>
>  --Hank Williams
>
>  I haven't read a Rod McKuen poem in a while, but the above sure  
> reminds me of him.
> --Bob G.

Heavens!  Next thing you know you'll be claiming that *John Prine*  
isn't a great poet, either. . . .
==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060920/4297c020/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Sep 21 06:27:00 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:27:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
References: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu><004801c6dd15$94e07eb0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<27E255AE-77B7-4532-A742-1D0A5F19F272@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003301c6dd68$7a32ba80$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  On Sep 20, 2006, at 7:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:


      I'm so lonesome I could cry

       --Hank Williams

       I haven't read a Rod McKuen poem in a while, but the above sure reminds me of him.
      --Bob G.



  Heavens!  Next thing you know you'll be claiming that *John Prine* isn't a great poet, either. . . .



  Comparing Hank to the most popular American poet of the middle of the 20th-century is saying he wasn't a great poet??!!



  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060921/101ae4ae/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 21 07:25:13 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:25:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Dao of Wallace Stevens
Message-ID: <008c01c6dd70$9b92e990$a8a93852@ANNY>

http://knitandcontemplation.typepad.com/dao_wallace_stevens/2004/08/


The Dao of Wallace Stevens 
an amateur - 'one who loves' - looks at the poetry of wallace stevens, from a background of the humanities, and daoist studies


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060921/19a6f3f4/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Thu Sep 21 09:51:26 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:51:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Court acquits novelist of insulting 'Turkishness'
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609210651g2ebf5bfai1a75a97a60526328@mail.gmail.com>

Update on Elif Shafak:

Though it doesn't say in this article, BBC radio just said that the
judge had decided even before the hearing to dismiss the case because
of pressure and publicity from Europe and the States.  Proof that
writing letters on behalf of persecuted writers *does* have an impact!

Suzanne



<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5366446.stm">Top novelist
acquitted in Turkey</a>

A court in Istanbul has acquitted the best-selling Turkish novelist,
Elif Shafak, who had been accused of insulting Turkish national
identity.

Ms Shafak, 35, had faced charges for comments made by her characters
on the mass killings of Armenians in the final years of the Ottoman
Empire in 1915.

Turkey rejects Armenia's claim that the killings constituted "genocide".

The EU welcomed the court ruling, but urged Turkey to scrap a law that
makes it a crime to insult "Turkishness".

The trial was seen by the EU as a test of freedom of expression in
Turkey, which began membership talks with the 25-member bloc last
October.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan also welcomed the verdict
and signalled that the government would consider amending Article 301
of Turkey's penal code. It envisages up to three years in jail for
"denigrating Turkish national identity".

"The ruling party and the opposition can sit down together again to
discuss this issue as laws are not eternal," Anatolia news agency
quoted Mr Erdogan as saying.

Scuffles

The proceedings lasted just 40 minutes and ended in utter chaos, the
BBC's Sarah Rainsford reports.

Turkish nationalists demanded a punishment for Ms Shafak

The judges said they based their decision on lack of evidence to prove
that Ms Shafak "denigrated Turkish national identity" in her novel,
The Bastard Of Istanbul.

Ms Shafak - who recently gave birth to her first child - was not
present at the hearing.

Ms Shafak said by telephone that she was extremely relieved her trial was over.

But she expressed concerns that there would be other similar cases in
the future as long as Article 301 "is out there".

The nationalist lawyers who brought the case walked out in anger
shortly after the trial opened.

They claimed the court and judges had been unduly influenced by the EU.

[]
[]  If Article 301 will be interpreted in this way nobody can write
novels in Turkey anymore, no-one can make movies any more []
Elif Shafak

Riot police moved in to stop scuffles between nationalists and
leftists outside the courthouse.

'Autonomy of art'

One of the lawyers who filed the complaint against Ms Shafak had
claimed that her novel was Armenian propaganda, dripping with hatred
for the Turks.

One of the novel's characters speaks of "Turkish butchers" and a
"genocide", while others talk about being "slaughtered like sheep".

Ms Shafak was the latest in a long line of writers to face similar
charges in Turkey. But this was the first time Article 301 had been
used against a work of fiction.

"If Article 301 will be interpreted in this way nobody can write
novels in Turkey anymore, no-one can make movies any more," Ms Shafak
told the BBC before the trial.

"The words of a character could be used as evidence against the author
or the film director. I think it is extremely important to defend the
autonomy of art, and of literature," she said.

-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and
what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,'
polish that, and you have style."

--Quentin Crisp


From rsillima at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 13:19:38 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
In-Reply-To: <200609211600.k8LG03oQ019809@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20060921171938.8489.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For what it's worth, Rod McKuen got his start on the fringes of the
Berkeley renaissance, alongside the likes of Robert Duncan, Jack
Spicer & Robin Blaser. And, for that matter, Phillip K. Dick.

McKuen maintains a blog and occasionally continues to publish poetry
there. 

http://www.mckuen.com/flights/flight.htm

Ron


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Sep 21 20:52:58 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:52:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
Message-ID: <c1c.527bc52.32448dea@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2006 1:21:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
rsillima at yahoo.com writes:

For what  it's worth, Rod McKuen got his start on the fringes of the
Berkeley  renaissance, alongside the likes of Robert Duncan, Jack
Spicer & Robin  Blaser. And, for that matter, Phillip K. Dick.
Bob's reflexive invocation of McKuen makes me think
it's hightime we find another name to invoke when it
comes to bad poets who have gained popular success.
(Bite your tongues, those who would whisper, 'Billy Collins'.)
Who has taken up the mantle?
 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060921/91cd9455/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Sep 21 21:16:14 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:16:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
References: <c1c.527bc52.32448dea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c6dde4$b467c7a0$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen


  In a message dated 9/21/2006 1:21:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rsillima at yahoo.com writes:
    For what it's worth, Rod McKuen got his start on the fringes of the
    Berkeley renaissance, alongside the likes of Robert Duncan, Jack
    Spicer & Robin Blaser. And, for that matter, Phillip K. Dick.
  Bob's reflexive invocation of McKuen 

  Not reflexive, James.  If you'll read the Hank Williams doggerel, you'll find a lot of the kind of free verse sentimentality I, for one, associate with Rod McKuen.  It was a reflective observation.  Your observation that it was reflexive would seem reflexive, especially considering I have almost never mentioned McKuen here.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060921/14972242/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 21 21:38:41 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
In-Reply-To: <c1c.527bc52.32448dea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609211838410.18722@hymn07.u.washington.edu>

i'd whisper Billy Collins, because he's horrible. but if he's out of the running, i'd like to nominate Ted "my little secretary gal vetts my glorified cowboy doggerel" Kooser.


On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/21/2006 1:21:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> rsillima at yahoo.com writes:
>
> For what  it's worth, Rod McKuen got his start on the fringes of the
> Berkeley  renaissance, alongside the likes of Robert Duncan, Jack
> Spicer & Robin  Blaser. And, for that matter, Phillip K. Dick.
> Bob's reflexive invocation of McKuen makes me think
> it's hightime we find another name to invoke when it
> comes to bad poets who have gained popular success.
> (Bite your tongues, those who would whisper, 'Billy Collins'.)
> Who has taken up the mantle?
>
> Finnegan
>




From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Thu Sep 21 23:54:16 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:54:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rod McKuen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609211838410.18722@hymn07.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609211838410.18722@hymn07.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <BDC189D0-EBA6-4BD8-9F30-13BF5D0583F3@uaf.edu>

I second the nomination for Kooser (Only because billy boy is out  
though).

On Sep 21, 2006, at 5:38 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

> i'd whisper Billy Collins, because he's horrible. but if he's out  
> of the running, i'd like to nominate Ted "my little secretary gal  
> vetts my glorified cowboy doggerel" Kooser.
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 9/21/2006 1:21:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> rsillima at yahoo.com writes:
>>
>> For what  it's worth, Rod McKuen got his start on the fringes of the
>> Berkeley  renaissance, alongside the likes of Robert Duncan, Jack
>> Spicer & Robin  Blaser. And, for that matter, Phillip K. Dick.
>> Bob's reflexive invocation of McKuen makes me think
>> it's hightime we find another name to invoke when it
>> comes to bad poets who have gained popular success.
>> (Bite your tongues, those who would whisper, 'Billy Collins'.)
>> Who has taken up the mantle?
>>
>> Finnegan
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep 22 00:53:37 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 23:53:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of print favorites
Message-ID: <AF73272D-D38B-42BD-BE12-99B24666F176@ripon.edu>

Here's another way to play the game.  Recently I mentioned Laura  
Jensen's *Bad Boats* and Philip Levine's *1933* as long out of print  
collections that ought to be reprinted.

What would be your nominations?

Here's one more suggestion from me.  Recently I've been re-reading my  
copy of Christopher Gilbert's *Across the Mutual Landscape*,  
published by Graywolf in 1984, but no longer even listed on the  
Graywolf website.  It won the 1983 Walt Whitman Award, selected by  
Michael Harper.  To my knowledge, Gilbert's never published another  
collection, though I'd be most delighted to be wrong about that.

I do wonder how many others know this book.  I think it's really  
quite fine.

Here's a sample.

Now


I park the car because I?m happy,
because if everyone parked we?d have a street party,
because the moon is full --
it is orange, the sky is closer
and it would be wrong to drive into it.
This is the first day of summer --
everyone is hanging out,
women walk by in their bodies so mellow
I feel I?m near a friend?s house.

The small white flakes of the headlights
sweat for a second on the storefronts.
In the windows, darkened afterhours,
a reflection stares back
looking more like me than me.
I reach to touch
and the reflection touches me.
Everything is perfect --
even my skin fits.

Hanging out,
the taillights of the turning cars
are fires, going out --
are the spaces of roses flowered
deeper in themselves. I close my eyes
and am flowered deeper in myself.

Further up the street a walking figure
I can?t make out, a face
behind a bag of groceries, free arm swinging
in the air the wave of a deep red
fluid shifting to and fro.

At the vegetarian restaurant
I see it?s Michael the Conga Drummer --
been looking for him 2 months.
He asks me, ?what?s happening??
I love his fingers.
When we shake hands I mix his grip
with the curve of my father?s
toting cantaloup in the house from the market.
We are two griots at an intersection.
I answer him in parable:

the orange that I?ve been carrying
is some luminous memory, bursting,
bigger than my hand can hold,
so I hand him half.

--Christopher Gilbert.  Across the Mutual Landscape.  Graywolf, 1984.



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060921/6c052024/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep 22 19:40:09 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 01:40:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <009901c6dea0$70fb2a40$35e03652@ANNY>

Dearest all,

 

a new update for the Poets' Corner at the beginning of Fall with my acknowledgment to the great poets who contributed:

 

Newly featured poets:

 

Robert Pinsky

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=213

 

Kathryn Rantala

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=214

 

Adam Fieled

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=215

 

Cathy Colman

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=216

 

Jerry McGuire

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=217

 

Jerome Rothenberg

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=218

 

 

New work by already featured Poets:

 

Halvard Johnson 

Pretty Honoraria

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1587

 

Sonnet: Norwegian Moods

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1590

 

 

Alan Sondheim

rewrite <desire> into you

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1588

 

Horizon and Phenomenology

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1634

 

 

Jeff Harrison

*The Wasps of Zane Grey*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1589

 

*The Snake Polisher's Shorter Paradise*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1591

 

*And now refers only to Lethe's diverting ripple*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1592

 

*Shakespeare Sonnets of Fran?ois Mauriac*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1604

 

*G is for GRANDUNCLES (OF THE CATTLETRADE)*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1615

 

*The Seven Wonders of Max Beerbohm*

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1616

 

 

Frederick Pollack

Christchurch

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1593

 

 

Elena Karina Byrne

DEATH FABLE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1595

 

MIRROR FABLE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1596

 

LANGUAGE FABLE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1597

 

FEELING FABLE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1598

 

MARKET, 12PM

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1599

 

INFIDELITY, DREAM: 2AM

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1600

 

6PM: PROXIMITY IS EVERYTHING

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1601

 

7AM: SCOPOPHILIA WALKS THE DOG

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1602

 

11PM T.V.

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1603

 

 

Skip Fox

135.

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1614

 

 

Deborah Russell

Warm Embers

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1628

 

Brilliantly Blue

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1629

 

Breathles Heart

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1630

 

Without Effort

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1631

 

Dustless Mind

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1632

 

Rusty Colored Rooftops

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1633

 

Monologues

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1642

 

Nowhere to Go

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1643

 

 

Robert Ryan

>From One and Many Worlds

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1665

 

 

Under Poets on Poets

 

Jon Corelis translates EURIPIDES' HIPPOLYTOS: A PERFORMANCE VISION

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=61

 

 

My introduction of Skip Fox in Italian and poem 135.

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=62

 

 

Linh Dinh in German by Gerd Burger

Zahnstocher un Essstaebchen

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=147

 

Veraltete Landkarten

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=148

 

Dreifaltigkeit

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=149

 

Fluessigketi

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=150

 

Gasfoerming

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=151

 

Das Abwischen

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=152

 

Ein Maerchen

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=153

 

Endokrine Druese

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=154

 

Sangesfreudig

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=155

 

Arschloecher

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=156

 

Entgrenzter Koerper

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=157

 

Der Haeftling mit dem Lexikon

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=158

 

And LINH DINH translated by DINH LINH into Italian !

Gli Anni

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=159

 

Intervista

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=160

 

Le Difficolt? della Poesia

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=161

 

Sei Raffinato?

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=162

 

Confessione

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=163

 

Breve Testo sulle Teste

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=164

 

Blues del Passaporto Blu

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=165

 

Perch? Devo Lavarmi Le Mani Ogni Giorno?

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=166

 

Probit? Estetica

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=167

 

 

Some of my critical work in Italian under Reviews:

 

Yves Bonnefoy's Terre Intraviste

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=255

 

Herberto Helder, La Macchina Lirica

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=256

 

Kikuo Takano, L'Infiammata Assenza

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=253

 

Tomaz Salamun, Quattro Domande Alla Malinconia

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=254

 

Rutger Kopland, Prima della Scomparsa e Dopo

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=257

 

 

Updated Bios and Introduction for:

 

Douglas Barbour and Sheila Murphy:

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1581

 

Barry Alpert

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=74

 

 

I am grateful to you all,

my best,

 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/642c7fb3/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Sep 23 10:52:55 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:52:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yannis Ritsos
Message-ID: <E223870A-0002-49CA-BF38-7FEF6375D72C@ripon.edu>

 From another out of print collection on my shelf:

DISSOLUTION


Dissolving shapes, moving; --a feeling of unrest,
deceptive wateriness--the sound of water surrounds you,
changing, deep, uncontrollable; you too are uncontrollable,
almost free.
             Later, perplexed women
and some old men came with pitchers, tin?cans, pots
to collect water for their home use.  The water shaped.
The river silent as if empty.  Dusk was failing.  Doors were shutting.
Only one woman without a pitcher remained in the garden,
made of water, transparent in the moonlight, a flower in her hair.

                         15.5.1968

--Yannis Ritsos.  Trans. Nikos Stangos.  Gestures and Other Poems  
1968-1970.  London:  Cape Golliard Press, 1971.



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/7def2f7d/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 11:11:14 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:11:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yannis Ritsos
References: <E223870A-0002-49CA-BF38-7FEF6375D72C@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00fd01c6df22$837123f0$fcd93052@ANNY>

a wonderful poem, 
The water shaped.

the dissipating atmosphere, and that woman, of water, ...

  From: David Graham 

  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:52 PM



  From another out of print collection on my shelf:


  DISSOLUTION




  Dissolving shapes, moving; --a feeling of unrest,
  deceptive wateriness--the sound of water surrounds you,
  changing, deep, uncontrollable; you too are uncontrollable,
  almost free.
              Later, perplexed women
  and some old men came with pitchers, tin?cans, pots
  to collect water for their home use.  The water shaped.
  The river silent as if empty.  Dusk was failing.  Doors were shutting.
  Only one woman without a pitcher remained in the garden,
  made of water, transparent in the moonlight, a flower in her hair.


                          15.5.1968

  --Yannis Ritsos.  Trans. Nikos Stangos.  Gestures and Other Poems 1968-1970.  London:  Cape Golliard Press, 1971.







  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/58227888/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 11:37:29 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:37:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collected Creeley new from U of California Press
Message-ID: <3bb.37c12f80.3246aeb9@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/20/2006 6:25:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
enews at ucpress.edu writes:

The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975?2005
Robert  Creeley

"Robert Creeley has created a noble body of poetry that  extends the work of 
his predecessors Pound, Williams, Zukofsky, and Olson, and  provides like them 
a method for his successors in exploring our new American  poetic 
consciousness."?Allen Ginsberg 
This definitive collection showcases thirty years of work by one of the  most 
significant American poets of the twentieth century, bringing together  verse 
that originally appeared in eight acclaimed books . . . 
_http://go.ucpress.edu/10161.html_ 
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0zMjczNDUmcD0xJnU9MTA2MTUzMDI3JmxpPTkwNTA5MA/index.html)  
Subjects: Literature; American Literature;  Poetry


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/0b97efc7/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 11:43:34 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:43:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <c11.55fa2f4.3246b026@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/22/2006 7:41:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

Dearest all, 
a new update for the Poets? Corner at the  beginning of Fall with my 
acknowledgment to the great poets who  contributed:


Great work, Anny...your passion for poetry in the largest sense 
shows itself in your site.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/1e6f2dcd/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 11:59:09 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:59:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
References: <c11.55fa2f4.3246b026@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014601c6df29$34d53900$fcd93052@ANNY>

Thank you James, 

most honored, indeed!



  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:43 PM



  In a message dated 9/22/2006 7:41:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    Dearest all,

     

    a new update for the Poets? Corner at the beginning of Fall with my acknowledgment to the great poets who contributed:

  Great work, Anny...your passion for poetry in the largest sense 
  shows itself in your site.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/a457e642/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 12:08:01 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:08:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Well-put: Stevenson in praise of Whitman's new truth
Message-ID: <bfd.5485170.3246b5e1@aol.com>

 
I come next to Whitman?s Leaves of Grass, a book of singular  service, a book 
which tumbled the world upside down for me, blew into space a  thousand 
cobwebs of genteel and ethical illusion, and, having thus shaken my  tabernacle of 
lies, set me back again upon a strong foundation of all the  original and 
manly virtues. But it is, once more, only a book for those who have  the gift of 
reading. I will be very frank?I believe it is so with  all good books, except, 
perhaps,  fiction. The average man lives, and must live, so wholly in 
convention, that  gunpowder charges of the truth are more apt to discompose than to 
invigorate his  creed. Either he cries out upon blasphemy and indecency, and 
crouches the closer  round that little idol of part-truths and part-conveniences 
which is the  contemporary deity, or he is convinced by what is new, forgets 
what is old, and  becomes truly blasphemous and indecent himself. New truth is 
only useful to  supplement the old; rough truth is only wanted to expand, not 
to destroy, our  civil and often elegant conventions. He who cannot judge had 
better stick to  fiction and the daily papers. There he will get little harm, 
and, in the first  at least, some good. 
--Robt. Louis Stevenson, ?Books Which Have Influence Me,? from Essays on  
The Art of Writing
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/b4e9e8cc/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 13:00:22 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:00:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?That=27ll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?=3A_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
Message-ID: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com>

_http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm_ 
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm) 
?60,000  Dylan award list revealed  

The six writers shortlisted for  the Dylan Thomas Prize
 

Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan  Thomas 
?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
The shortlist  includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James 
Scudamore and playwright  Lucy Caldwell. 
 
They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the  
running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 
 
The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read.  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/868f8b0a/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 13:35:14 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:35:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] site of the inferno found
Message-ID: <c0b.466e0bc.3246ca52@aol.com>

This was pointed to on another list...
a guide to Dante's Inferno (& the intro 
is worth waiting through, too):
_http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/_ (http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/) 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/d943cb33/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 14:32:57 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:32:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yannis Ritsos
References: <E223870A-0002-49CA-BF38-7FEF6375D72C@ripon.edu>
	<00fd01c6df22$837123f0$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <006401c6df3e$b1729240$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Yes...I love that whole concluding image.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Yannis Ritsos


  a wonderful poem, 
  The water shaped.

  the dissipating atmosphere, and that woman, of water, ...

    From: David Graham 

    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:52 PM



    From another out of print collection on my shelf: 


    DISSOLUTION




    Dissolving shapes, moving; --a feeling of unrest,
    deceptive wateriness--the sound of water surrounds you,
    changing, deep, uncontrollable; you too are uncontrollable,
    almost free.
                Later, perplexed women
    and some old men came with pitchers, tin?cans, pots
    to collect water for their home use.  The water shaped.
    The river silent as if empty.  Dusk was failing.  Doors were shutting.
    Only one woman without a pitcher remained in the garden,
    made of water, transparent in the moonlight, a flower in her hair.


                            15.5.1968

    --Yannis Ritsos.  Trans. Nikos Stangos.  Gestures and Other Poems 1968-1970.  London:  Cape Golliard Press, 1971.







    ==========================================

    David Graham

    grahamd at ripon.edu

    Home Page:

    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

    Poetry Library:

    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

    ==========================================








------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/f3115231/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 14:33:55 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:33:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Well-put: Stevenson in praise of Whitman's new truth
References: <bfd.5485170.3246b5e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c6df3e$d3de85a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Nice.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:08 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Well-put: Stevenson in praise of Whitman's new truth


  I come next to Whitman?s Leaves of Grass, a book of singular service, a book which tumbled the world upside down for me, blew into space a thousand cobwebs of genteel and ethical illusion, and, having thus shaken my tabernacle of lies, set me back again upon a strong foundation of all the original and manly virtues. But it is, once more, only a book for those who have the gift of reading. I will be very frank?I believe it is so with  all good books, except, perhaps, fiction. The average man lives, and must live, so wholly in convention, that gunpowder charges of the truth are more apt to discompose than to invigorate his creed. Either he cries out upon blasphemy and indecency, and crouches the closer round that little idol of part-truths and part-conveniences which is the contemporary deity, or he is convinced by what is new, forgets what is old, and becomes truly blasphemous and indecent himself. New truth is only useful to supplement the old; rough truth is only wanted to expand, not to destroy, our civil and often elegant conventions. He who cannot judge had better stick to fiction and the daily papers. There he will get little harm, and, in the first at least, some good.

   

  --Robt. Louis Stevenson, ?Books Which Have Influence Me,? from Essays on The Art of Writing



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/b5d17372/attachment.html>

From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 14:49:20 2006
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] howdja do, howdja do...
Message-ID: <20060923184920.52999.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Note: forwarded message attached.


"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: The results of your email commands
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:04:05 -0400
Size: 3885
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/30c9629f/attachment.mht>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 15:15:13 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:15:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] howdja do, howdja do...
Message-ID: <c82.250a3ba.3246e1c1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/23/2006 2:49:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
alexdickow9 at yahoo.com writes:

I'm  Alex, joining the list from Lucipo as per
JforJames offer. Will try not to  wreak too much havok,
am happy to join you. 



Alex, welcome, 
and I hope we pick a few more banished Lucipos...
seems like the management of that list opted
for parochialism over geographic breadth.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/844c2783/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 15:32:49 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:32:49 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com>
Message-ID: <023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY>

laughing for that "blown away"
the one who wins might feel that way...

  From: JforJames at aol.com 

  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
  ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
   
  The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


  Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
  The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

  They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

  The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/e672f895/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 15:39:42 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:39:42 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com>
	<023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Blown Away... by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  laughing for that "blown away"
  the one who wins might feel that way...

    From: JforJames at aol.com 

    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
    ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
     
    The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


    Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
    The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

    They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

    The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 



----------------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/17658f68/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 16:04:55 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:04:55 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY>

:-)
how is it that you can always read my thoughts?
let's put instead of sea: Ocean
and instead of August: any month would do...
  From: TheOldMole 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:39 PM


  Blown Away... by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August?
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:32 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    laughing for that "blown away"
    the one who wins might feel that way...

      From: JforJames at aol.com 

      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
      ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
       
      The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


      Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
      The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

      They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

      The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/d04ca3d9/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 16:25:25 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:25:25 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I would have put "Travolti da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" but I couldn't think of the appropriate substitution for "Travolti." 

"Soffiati da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" ?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  :-)
  how is it that you can always read my thoughts?
  let's put instead of sea: Ocean
  and instead of August: any month would do...
    From: TheOldMole 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:39 PM


    Blown Away... by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August?
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:32 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


      laughing for that "blown away"
      the one who wins might feel that way...

        From: JforJames at aol.com 

        Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
        Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
        ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
         
        The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


        Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
        The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

        They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

        The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/f9cb8c09/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 16:37:55 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:37:55 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>

this is excellent Italian, 
let's see: sospinti (not really); Spazzati Via da un Destino Insolito (da un Raro Destino) nel Mare Blu d'Agosto
you can play a little here, look: http://www.homolaicus.com/linguaggi/sinonimi/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TheOldMole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  I would have put "Travolti da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" but I couldn't think of the appropriate substitution for "Travolti." 

  "Soffiati da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" ?
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:04 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    :-)
    how is it that you can always read my thoughts?
    let's put instead of sea: Ocean
    and instead of August: any month would do...
      From: TheOldMole 
      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:39 PM


      Blown Away... by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August?
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Anny Ballardini 
        To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
        Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


        laughing for that "blown away"
        the one who wins might feel that way...

          From: JforJames at aol.com 

          Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
          Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


          http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
          ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
           
          The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


          Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
          The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

          They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

          The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/dac58842/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 17:28:27 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:28:27 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_That'll_pay_for_quite_a_few_pints?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?:_=A360=2C000_Dylan_award_shortlist?=
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  this is excellent Italian, 
  let's see: sospinti (not really); Spazzati Via da un Destino Insolito (da un Raro Destino) nel Mare Blu d'Agosto
  you can play a little here, look: http://www.homolaicus.com/linguaggi/sinonimi/
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: TheOldMole 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:25 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    I would have put "Travolti da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" but I couldn't think of the appropriate substitution for "Travolti." 

    "Soffiati da un insolito destino nell'azzurro mare d'agosto" ?
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


      :-)
      how is it that you can always read my thoughts?
      let's put instead of sea: Ocean
      and instead of August: any month would do...
        From: TheOldMole 
        Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:39 PM


        Blown Away... by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August?
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Anny Ballardini 
          To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
          Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:32 PM
          Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


          laughing for that "blown away"
          the one who wins might feel that way...

            From: JforJames at aol.com 

            Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:00 PM
            Subject: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/5370042.stm
            ?60,000 Dylan award list revealed  
             
            The six writers shortlisted for the Dylan Thomas Prize


            Six young authors have been named as finalists for the first Dylan Thomas ?60,000 award, the world's largest literary prize. 
            The shortlist includes UK authors Rachel Trezise, Nick Laird, James Scudamore and playwright Lucy Caldwell. 

            They are joined by American Liza Ward and Zimbabwe-based Ian Holding in the running for the prize, which will be announced in October. 

            The judges said they had been "blown away" by what they had read. 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/a75f77c0/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 23 17:48:37 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:48:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>

Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
the first version.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TheOldMole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


  Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/c63b9b65/attachment.html>

From millb at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 19:07:56 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:07:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
In-Reply-To: <029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>	<016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <8C8AD7C3D4B11E6-1444-46D5@mblk-d36.sysops.aol.com>

Here's another (clapping hands)
 
Mano Minutz, Mano minutz
 
(don't remember the rest)
 
Anny?  Any help?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it
Sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
the first version.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: TheOldMole 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/b7e4a8a7/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 23 21:04:55 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:04:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

It goes like this. I pretty much know the English translation, but there are still places where my phonetic Italian may be screwed up, even though all Italian is phonetic.

It was taught to me by an Italian governess. She wasn't exactly a governess, she was a young Italian woman whom my parents wanted to help out by bringing her over to the US, so they told immigration she was the children's governess. Anyway, here it is.

Anselmo cavalca
Per monti e per valli,
Chiedendo ai vassali,
L'Oriente dove?

Nessuno l'ai visto
Nessuno ne sa niente
E allora l'Oriente
Vol dir che non ce.

In tanto la guerra
Finito e di gia,
Ma lui ventre a terra
Gallopa e non sa.

E valica monti
E valica valli
Chiedendo ai vassali
L'Oriente dove?


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


  Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
  http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
  the first version.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: TheOldMole 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/21036e11/attachment.html>

From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 21:54:15 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:54:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
Message-ID: <20060924015415.14501.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Who are these people?  I'm looking around trying to find them, and all I get are reviews.  What sort of writers these days place all their work in print?  Is that still how we work?  Seems folks under 30 who have grown up with the web would be more receptive to putting some of their work out there.  Maybe it does not make any money.  Hope a few of the folks are on this list.  Maybe they could point me to some of their work.
 
 		
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1?/min.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060923/d04cc4e3/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 23 23:01:29 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 04:01:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
References: <20060924015415.14501.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010501c6df85$be28b0e0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>


  From: jim goar 


  Who are these people?

          Good question -- I hadn't heard of any of them.

   I'm looking around trying to find them, and all I get are reviews. What sort of writers these days place all their work in print?

          Novelists, which is what they mostly seem to be.

   Is that still how we work? Seems folks under 30 who have grown up with the web would be more receptive to putting some of their work out there. 

          There is a difference -- not absolute -- between the US and the UK.  You'll find quite a lot of UK poets in various webzines, and some have Homepages.  But they blog less than their US counterparts.  Self-deprecation seems to trump self-publication here.

  Maybe it does not make any money. 

          Damn right it doesn't, and it costs, even if only in time that could be better spent writing poems.

          Neither is there any indirect money in it, as we don't have here the MFA route to prizes and teaching posts and all those other goodies.

  Hope a few of the folks are on this list. Maybe they could point me to some of their work.

          Doubt it, but maybe some of the minority of other Brits on this list <g> can be more helpful than me.

          Having said which, I found a couple of poems by Nick Laird.  Here they are:

          http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/poetry/story/0,,1815352,00.html

  Cuttings by Nick Laird 

  Saturday July 8, 2006
  The Guardian 


  Methodical dust shades the combs and pomade
  while the wielded goodwill of the sunlight picks out
  a patch of paisley wallpaper to expand leisurely on it. 
  The cape comes off with a matador's flourish
  and the scalp's washed to get rid of the chaff.
  This is the closeness casual once in the trenches 

  and is deft as remembering when not to mention
  the troubles or women or prison.
  They talk of the parking or calving or missing. 

  A beige lino, a red barber's chair, one ceramic brown sink
  and a scenic wall-calendar of the glories of Ulster
  sponsored by JB Crane Hire or some crowd flogging animal feed. 

  About, say, every second month or so
  he will stroll and cross the widest street in Ireland
  and step beneath the bandaged pole. 

  Eelmen, gunmen, the long dead, the police.
  And my angry and beautiful father:
  tilted, expectant and open as in a deckchair 

  outside on the drive, persuaded to wait
  for a meteor shower, but with his eyes budded shut,
  his head full of lather and unusual thoughts. 

  ? Nick Laird "Cuttings" is included on a CD, Life Lines: Poets for Oxfam, price ?4.99, from selected Oxfam shops.

              http://www.poetrysociety.org.uk/review/pr93-2/laird.htm

        Nick Laird
        the bearhug
       

------------------------------------------------------------------------
       
        ISSUE 93-2 BACK TO TABLE OF CONTENTS 
       
          
        It's not as if I'm intending on spending the rest of my life doing this: 
        besuited, rebooted, filing to work, this poem a fishbone in my briefcase. 
        The scaffolding clinging St Paul's is less urban ivy than skin, peeling off.

        A singular sprinkler shaking his head spits at the newsprint of birdshit. 
        It's going unread: Gooseberry Poptarts, stale wheaten bread, Nutella and toothpaste. 
        An open-armed crane offers sexual favours to aeroplanes passing above.

        I hadn't the foggiest notion. Imagine: me, munching cardboard and rubbish,
        but that's just what they meant when they said, Come in, you're dead-beat, 
        take the weight off your paws, you're a big weary grizzly with a hook through his
                                                                                                              mouth,

        here, have some of this love. 


        ********************************************
       
  Robin Hamilton
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/4f933997/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 24 03:11:31 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:11:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>	<016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<8C8AD7C3D4B11E6-1444-46D5@mblk-d36.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <005101c6dfa8$a97a4460$0ceb3652@ANNY>

I am sorry. I googled "Mano Minuta, ..." but nothing showed up. I am not that good at Italian riddles. 

The only one I knew that my mother told me was:

Batti batti le manine
...

and it required clapping hands!
Ciao, Anny

  From: millb at aol.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:07 AM


  Here's another (clapping hands)

  Mano Minutz, Mano minutz

  (don't remember the rest)

  Anny?  Any help?


   
  -----Original Message-----
  From: anny.ballardini at tin.it
  Sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 2:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


  Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
  http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
  the first version.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: TheOldMole 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


    Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/c0c64c78/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 24 03:22:28 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:22:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY>

This is a beautiful little poem, do you have some other ones? 

Anselmo is riding through mountains and valleys, he asks his vassals where the East is. Nobody knows - which means there is no East. In the meantime the war ended, but he, stomach on earth, rides and does not know. And he crosses mountains and valleys and asks his vassals where the East is.

I just corrected a couple of things:

Anselmo cavalca
Per monti e per valli,
Chiedendo ai vassalli,
L'Oriente dov'??

Nessuno l'ha visto
Nessuno (ne) sa niente             (---optional)
E allora l'Oriente
Vuol dir che non c'?.

Intanto la guerra
Finita ? di gi?,
Ma lui ventre a terra
Galoppa e non sa.

E valica monti
E valica valli
Chiedendo ai vassalli
L'Oriente dov'??
  From: TheOldMole 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:04 AM


  It goes like this. I pretty much know the English translation, but there are still places where my phonetic Italian may be screwed up, even though all Italian is phonetic.

  It was taught to me by an Italian governess. She wasn't exactly a governess, she was a young Italian woman whom my parents wanted to help out by bringing her over to the US, so they told immigration she was the children's governess. Anyway, here it is.

  Anselmo cavalca
  Per monti e per valli,
  Chiedendo ai vassali,
  L'Oriente dove?

  Nessuno l'ai visto
  Nessuno ne sa niente
  E allora l'Oriente
  Vol dir che non ce.

  In tanto la guerra
  Finito e di gia,
  Ma lui ventre a terra
  Gallopa e non sa.

  E valica monti
  E valica valli
  Chiedendo ai vassali
  L'Oriente dove?


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:48 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


    Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
    http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
    the first version.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: TheOldMole 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


      Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/818f2467/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep 24 09:39:51 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:39:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY><00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

This is the only one I remember. And I know Ilde sang it it with the (ne) in there, for the rhythm. The only  riding Anselmo I've been able to Google is from Orlando Furioso, and I'm guessing that is not the source of this song. "Stomach on earth" was the only part I wasn't sure of the English for, and I'm wondering if I remember the Italian wrong there. If he's riding, he wouldn't have his stomach to the ground. Is there another word that sounds vaguely similar that would make more sense?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


  This is a beautiful little poem, do you have some other ones? 

  Anselmo is riding through mountains and valleys, he asks his vassals where the East is. Nobody knows - which means there is no East. In the meantime the war ended, but he, stomach on earth, rides and does not know. And he crosses mountains and valleys and asks his vassals where the East is.

  I just corrected a couple of things:

  Anselmo cavalca
  Per monti e per valli,
  Chiedendo ai vassalli,
  L'Oriente dov'??

  Nessuno l'ha visto
  Nessuno (ne) sa niente             (---optional)
  E allora l'Oriente
  Vuol dir che non c'?.

  Intanto la guerra
  Finita ? di gi?,
  Ma lui ventre a terra
  Galoppa e non sa.

  E valica monti
  E valica valli
  Chiedendo ai vassalli
  L'Oriente dov'??
    From: TheOldMole 
    Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:04 AM


    It goes like this. I pretty much know the English translation, but there are still places where my phonetic Italian may be screwed up, even though all Italian is phonetic.

    It was taught to me by an Italian governess. She wasn't exactly a governess, she was a young Italian woman whom my parents wanted to help out by bringing her over to the US, so they told immigration she was the children's governess. Anyway, here it is.

    Anselmo cavalca
    Per monti e per valli,
    Chiedendo ai vassali,
    L'Oriente dove?

    Nessuno l'ai visto
    Nessuno ne sa niente
    E allora l'Oriente
    Vol dir che non ce.

    In tanto la guerra
    Finito e di gia,
    Ma lui ventre a terra
    Gallopa e non sa.

    E valica monti
    E valica valli
    Chiedendo ai vassali
    L'Oriente dove?


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
      Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:48 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


      Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
      http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
      the first version.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: TheOldMole 
        To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
        Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


        Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/a4dfc678/attachment.html>

From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Sun Sep 24 09:59:57 2006
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:59:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
In-Reply-To: <002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com>
	<023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY>
	<00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY>
	<002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20060924085821.01f9b0d0@mail.ilstu.edu>

I don't know Italian idioms very well, but there is an idiom in French 
that's similar: ventre a terre.  It means something like "hell for leather" 
in English.  I bet that's what's going on here as well.

                                                                         Bill

At 08:39 AM 9/24/2006, you wrote:
>This is the only one I remember. And I know Ilde sang it it with the (ne) 
>in there, for the rhythm. The only  riding Anselmo I've been able to 
>Google is from Orlando Furioso, and I'm guessing that is not the source of 
>this song. "Stomach on earth" was the only part I wasn't sure of the 
>English for, and I'm wondering if I remember the Italian wrong there. If 
>he's riding, he wouldn't have his stomach to the ground. Is there another 
>word that sounds vaguely similar that would make more sense?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:anny.ballardini at tin.it>Anny Ballardini
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News 
>&amp; Views
>Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
>
>This is a beautiful little poem, do you have some other ones?
>
>Anselmo is riding through mountains and valleys, he asks his vassals where 
>the East is. Nobody knows - which means there is no East. In the meantime 
>the war ended, but he, stomach on earth, rides and does not know. And he 
>crosses mountains and valleys and asks his vassals where the East is.
>
>I just corrected a couple of things:
>
>Anselmo cavalca
>Per monti e per valli,
>Chiedendo ai vassalli,
>L'Oriente dov'??
>
>Nessuno l'ha visto
>Nessuno (ne) sa niente             (---optional)
>E allora l'Oriente
>Vuol dir che non c'?.
>
>Intanto la guerra
>Finita ? di gi?,
>Ma lui ventre a terra
>Galoppa e non sa.
>
>E valica monti
>E valica valli
>Chiedendo ai vassalli
>L'Oriente dov'??
>From: <mailto:tad at opus40.org>TheOldMole
>Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:04 AM
>
>It goes like this. I pretty much know the English translation, but there 
>are still places where my phonetic Italian may be screwed up, even though 
>all Italian is phonetic.
>
>It was taught to me by an Italian governess. She wasn't exactly a 
>governess, she was a young Italian woman whom my parents wanted to help 
>out by bringing her over to the US, so they told immigration she was the 
>children's governess. Anyway, here it is.
>
>Anselmo cavalca
>Per monti e per valli,
>Chiedendo ai vassali,
>L'Oriente dove?
>
>Nessuno l'ai visto
>Nessuno ne sa niente
>E allora l'Oriente
>Vol dir che non ce.
>
>In tanto la guerra
>Finito e di gia,
>Ma lui ventre a terra
>Gallopa e non sa.
>
>E valica monti
>E valica valli
>Chiedendo ai vassali
>L'Oriente dove?
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:anny.ballardini at tin.it>Anny Ballardini
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News 
>&amp; Views
>Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:48 PM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
>
>Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
><http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm>http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
>the first version.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:tad at opus40.org>TheOldMole
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News 
>&amp;Views
>Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan 
>award shortlist
>
>Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in 
>Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in 
>Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children 
>know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
>
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/a62b6a95/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 24 10:06:54 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:06:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY><00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY>
	<002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <00d501c6dfe2$b1225ce0$0ceb3652@ANNY>

Dear Tad,

you know that people at a certain point leave us. They go to a different and more beautiful world with angels and songs and lights. Also Anselmo, who was probably a very very old knight, fell down (earth to the ground), but in his dreams he is still riding towards the East. As a matter of fact, if you look up at the sky, you can see him, the Sirens call him when the moon is full, the clouds look like waves and a most brilliant star directs to the East. 
:-)

  From: TheOldMole 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:39 PM


  This is the only one I remember. And I know Ilde sang it it with the (ne) in there, for the rhythm. The only  riding Anselmo I've been able to Google is from Orlando Furioso, and I'm guessing that is not the source of this song. "Stomach on earth" was the only part I wasn't sure of the English for, and I'm wondering if I remember the Italian wrong there. If he's riding, he wouldn't have his stomach to the ground. Is there another word that sounds vaguely similar that would make more sense?
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:22 AM


    This is a beautiful little poem, do you have some other ones? 

    Anselmo is riding through mountains and valleys, he asks his vassals where the East is. Nobody knows - which means there is no East. In the meantime the war ended, but he, stomach on earth, rides and does not know. And he crosses mountains and valleys and asks his vassals where the East is.

    I just corrected a couple of things:

    Anselmo cavalca
    Per monti e per valli,
    Chiedendo ai vassalli,
    L'Oriente dov'??

    Nessuno l'ha visto
    Nessuno (ne) sa niente             (---optional)
    E allora l'Oriente
    Vuol dir che non c'?.

    Intanto la guerra
    Finita ? di gi?,
    Ma lui ventre a terra
    Galoppa e non sa.

    E valica monti
    E valica valli
    Chiedendo ai vassalli
    L'Oriente dov'??
      From: TheOldMole 
      Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:04 AM


      It goes like this. I pretty much know the English translation, but there are still places where my phonetic Italian may be screwed up, even though all Italian is phonetic.

      It was taught to me by an Italian governess. She wasn't exactly a governess, she was a young Italian woman whom my parents wanted to help out by bringing her over to the US, so they told immigration she was the children's governess. Anyway, here it is.

      Anselmo cavalca
      Per monti e per valli,
      Chiedendo ai vassali,
      L'Oriente dove?

      Nessuno l'ai visto
      Nessuno ne sa niente
      E allora l'Oriente
      Vol dir che non ce.

      In tanto la guerra
      Finito e di gia,
      Ma lui ventre a terra
      Gallopa e non sa.

      E valica monti
      E valica valli
      Chiedendo ai vassali
      L'Oriente dove?


        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Anny Ballardini 
        To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
        Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:48 PM
        Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


        Which nursery rhyme is it? I think most children know this lullaby:
        http://www.filastrocche.it/nostalgici/ninne/ninna7.htm
        the first version.
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: TheOldMole 
          To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
          Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:28 PM
          Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] That'll pay for quite a few pints: ?60,000 Dylan award shortlist


          Anny -- have I asked you this before? I have an entire nursery rhyme in Italian, in my memory, virtually the only thing I remember from my year in Italy when I was 9. I'm wondering if it's something that Italian children know, or whether I am the only person in the world who remembers it.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/b30d815d/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 24 10:10:22 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:10:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY><00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY><002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<6.0.2.0.2.20060924085821.01f9b0d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00ed01c6dfe3$2cb61ae0$0ceb3652@ANNY>

Hi Bill, I never heard it in Italian. I simply thought that he was dead but kept on dreaming.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Morgan 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


  I don't know Italian idioms very well, but there is an idiom in French that's similar: ventre a terre.  It means something like "hell for leather" in English.  I bet that's what's going on here as well.  

                                                                          Bill

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/192168c3/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 11:49:07 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:49:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Topos
Message-ID: <c61.2303223.324802f3@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:07:02 -0700
From:     Eric Dickey <eric_dickey at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: request for  poems

Dear friends and poets,

Reminder, the  submission deadline is nigh, October 1, 2006.  Nigh, I say!

Please consider submitting your work.  We welcome original  poetry and poetry 
in translation.

Please contact us  if you would like to submit original artwork.

Help  spread the word by posting or forwarding this message.

Thank you.

Eric Wayne Dickey
Corvallis, Oregon

To Topos, a journal of  international poetry, invites submissions for its 
tenth volume on the subject of  poetry and poverty guest edited by Dr. Karen 
Holmberg.  Welcoming work from  individuals of all cultures, regions, nations, and 
groups, we call upon poets to  replace the abstract with the tangible, to 
give substance to the voices and  faces of those on whom our corporate economy 
depends and who are often relegated  to a state of silence.   We hope to collect 
a body of work that  renders the truth of this most comprehensive form of 
oppression.  The issue  will include a preface by Michael Parenti.  Submissions 
may be in any  language if accompanied by English translation, and must be 
received by October  1, 2006.

To submit, click on  
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html

Karen Holmberg?s first book, The Perseids, won the Vassar Miller  Prize in 
2001, and her work has appeared in such magazines as The Paris Review,  The 
Nation, Slate, Quarterly West and Southern Poetry Review.  She lives in  
Corvallis, OR, where she teaches in the MFA program at Oregon State  University.

Michael Parenti is an award  winning author and activist who has published 
numerous books, including  Superpatriotism (2004), and The Assassination of 
Julius Caesar (2003) which won  the ?Book of the Year Award? (nonfiction) from 
Online Review of Books. His most  recent work is The Culture Struggle  (2006). 
For further information, visit  his website:  www.michaelparenti.org.



About To Topos
To Topos is an international poetry journal  that features poetry in 
translation, oftentimes the original appears together  with its English translation. 
The following is excerpted from our Poet's Market  entry:

"To Topos is committed to fostering human rights on an  environmentally 
fragile planet. Its focus is altermondialist, recognizing that  the causes of 
poverty and injustice are often related to race, gender,  nationality, and the 
effacement of earth-given resources. Most issues are  thematically focused. 

"Previous themes include  Incarceration, Peace and the Sea, Forests, and 
North African Voices.   Winona LaDuke (White Earth Land Recovery Project) and Dr. 
William F. Schulz  (Amnesty International) have prefaced recent issues. The 
journal is open to both  aspiring and recognized poets. The journal particularly 
invites submissions from  refugees and the borderless. The journal is 
primarily interested in living poets  who believe words carry the gift of positive 
social change.

"The  mission of this journal is to reveal the human face of poetry as a 
statement of  urgency in today's world. The journal is open to all aesthetic and 
stylistic  orientations, but submissions should be a seed for social change 
along humanist  principles without indulging in political or nationalist 
rhetoric."

Just released, an issue dedicated to Contemporary Hungarian Poetry, guest  
edited by Eniko Bollobas of E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest. A copy of which  
was presented to the Hungarian Prime Minister, who's leadership is now being  
questioned.  Is To Topos responsible for this potential coup?    To find out, 
purchase a copy.

To purchase copies of  this Hungarian issue, or other back issues:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html

For our next issue, we are in the process of reading the nearly 400  
submissions for our Indigenous Americas: Poetry by Indigenous Peoples of the  Western 
Hemisphere issue, guest edited by Allison Hedge Coke, Northern Michigan  
University. In May, Ms. Hedge Coke addressed the United Nations regarding the  
effect of publication impact on Indigenous Human Rights.    

Future themes include Contemporary Turkish Poetry  and Contemporary Belgian 
Poetry.

Our 2004  issue on Forests features an introduction by Winona LaDuke and was 
given a  favorable review in the prominent French poetry journal, Friches. The 
2005 issue  on North African Voices was featured on www.babelmed.net.  

We just received an Oregon Literary Arts Fellowship for Publishers grant  
earlier this year. Our pages include works by the likes of academics, asylum  
inmates, Nobel and Pulitzer candidates, scholars, and farmers.

For more information or to order back issues:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/ed6ca3de/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 11:59:22 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:59:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Listing of Reveiwers/Review Sources?
Message-ID: <387.ba3b08a.3248055a@aol.com>

If anyone has handy a listing of contemporary poetry review writers
or review sources (print media, websites, blogs), preferably with
addresses/urls, I'd appreciate getting a copy backchannel. I'm  taking 
a baby-step back into being a publisher...and I'd like to help the  author 
get the book reviewed.
 
Jim Finnegan
_JforJames at aol.com_ (mailto:JforJames at aol.com) 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/98ada0e1/attachment.html>

From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 12:18:11 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
Message-ID: <20060924161811.61819.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Hi Robin,
 
 
 Thanks for this response.  I hear you on most everything.  However, when I talk about putting work on the web, I am not talking about blogging.  You can blog or not, who cares.  What I am asking is why they do not publish in journals that put some of the work on the web.  You get into a mag, say, Harvard Review, and even if they do not post your poem/story, they will list you in the table of contents.  Plenty of novelists publish in all sorts of places on the web. Plenty of great web only journals. Really though, how is it that most (thanks for the link) of these folks have stayed so clear of the Internet?  What is wrong with letting people get a little taste of you for free?  How can you be 28 and above that?   
 
 		
---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/116b1bef/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Sep 24 13:16:17 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:16:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <20060924161811.61819.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005301c6dffd$26774b30$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hi Robin,


  Thanks for this response. I hear you on most everything. However, when I talk about putting work on the web, I am not talking about blogging. You can blog or not, who cares. What I am asking is why they do not publish in journals that put some of the work on the web. You get into a mag, say, Harvard Review, and even if they do not post your poem/story, they will list you in the table of contents. Plenty of novelists publish in all sorts of places on the web. Plenty of great web only journals. Really though, how is it that most (thanks for the link) of these folks have stayed so clear of the Internet? What is wrong with letting people get a little taste of you for free? How can you be 28 and above that? 
  I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except the one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little or nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find poets to give money to.

  Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/922309d4/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Sep 24 16:32:12 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:32:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <20060924161811.61819.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<005301c6dffd$26774b30$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00f501c6e018$8448d380$0ceb3652@ANNY>

Hi Bob,

it is the same all around the world. But if you think of it, how miserable they might be, they end up having no friends.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks


  Hi Robin,


    Thanks for this response. I hear you on most everything. However, when I talk about putting work on the web, I am not talking about blogging. You can blog or not, who cares. What I am asking is why they do not publish in journals that put some of the work on the web. You get into a mag, say, Harvard Review, and even if they do not post your poem/story, they will list you in the table of contents. Plenty of novelists publish in all sorts of places on the web. Plenty of great web only journals. Really though, how is it that most (thanks for the link) of these folks have stayed so clear of the Internet? What is wrong with letting people get a little taste of you for free? How can you be 28 and above that? 
    I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except the one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little or nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find poets to give money to. 

    Bob G.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/55d880aa/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep 24 18:13:10 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:13:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna
References: <c5f.208818f.3246c226@aol.com><023201c6df47$0def3390$fcd93052@ANNY><013c01c6df48$044296b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><024c01c6df4b$89f76170$fcd93052@ANNY><015001c6df4e$677c4b80$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><026c01c6df50$26367a40$fcd93052@ANNY><016901c6df57$35683b50$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><029a01c6df5a$06b2a720$fcd93052@ANNY><00cf01c6df75$733b1f60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><006601c6dfaa$30f0a730$0ceb3652@ANNY><002401c6dfde$e9a5f8a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><6.0.2.0.2.20060924085821.01f9b0d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<00ed01c6dfe3$2cb61ae0$0ceb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <001f01c6e026$9f4f9610$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I'm guessing Bill is right...that makes a lot of sense.

I'm thinking, because I believe this is a children's lyric, that Anselmo is a bit of a goof, an old soldier -- perhaps a scout -- sent out on a mission, forgotten about by the high command, still on his quest for the Orient, but going about it all wrong, scouring the Italian countryside. I'm also guessing it's not "his vassals" -- he's not a seigneur. He's just asking the peasantry of whatever region he happens to ride through.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


  Hi Bill, I never heard it in Italian. I simply thought that he was dead but kept on dreaming.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bill Morgan 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:59 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ninna nanna


    I don't know Italian idioms very well, but there is an idiom in French that's similar: ventre a terre.  It means something like "hell for leather" in English.  I bet that's what's going on here as well.  

                                                                            Bill




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/876c8bb5/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Sep 24 18:14:22 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:14:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Listing of Reveiwers/Review Sources?
References: <387.ba3b08a.3248055a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c6e026$c9f714b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

That would be a good list for all of us to have.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:59 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Listing of Reveiwers/Review Sources?


  If anyone has handy a listing of contemporary poetry review writers
  or review sources (print media, websites, blogs), preferably with
  addresses/urls, I'd appreciate getting a copy backchannel. I'm taking 
  a baby-step back into being a publisher...and I'd like to help the author 
  get the book reviewed.

  Jim Finnegan
  JforJames at aol.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060924/d1a083ec/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Sun Sep 24 21:12:13 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Listing of Reveiwers/Review Sources?
In-Reply-To: <387.ba3b08a.3248055a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609241812130.21267@hymn02.u.washington.edu>

Wet Asphalt will happily review anything you want reviewed, and if it doesn't fit into our blogazine format, we'll happily request review copies through querying publishers.

http://www.wetasphalt.com/


On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> If anyone has handy a listing of contemporary poetry review writers
> or review sources (print media, websites, blogs), preferably with
> addresses/urls, I'd appreciate getting a copy backchannel. I'm  taking
> a baby-step back into being a publisher...and I'd like to help the  author
> get the book reviewed.
>
> Jim Finnegan
> _JforJames at aol.com_ (mailto:JforJames at aol.com)
>




From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Mon Sep 25 02:17:28 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:17:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <20060924161811.61819.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><005301c6dffd$26774b30$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00f501c6e018$8448d380$0ceb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <006c01c6e06a$48436790$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Anny wrote:

>Hi Bob,

it is the same all around the world. But if you think of it, how miserable they might be, they end up having no friends<


Quite so, Anny, it couldn't be put better.

Best

Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/7fc16ab2/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep 25 05:54:25 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <20060924015415.14501.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609250254250.11059@hymn05.u.washington.edu>


As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a major online presence. Further, I no longer submit to journals that don't take electronic submissions, and to my way of thinking, that's New American Writing's loss.

But seriously I'm great and people SHOULD give me money. Go read my poetry in the spring summer issue of blazeVOX.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:

> Who are these people?  I'm looking around trying to find them, and all I get are reviews.  What sort of writers these days place all their work in print?  Is that still how we work?  Seems folks under 30 who have grown up with the web would be more receptive to putting some of their work out there.  Maybe it does not make any money.  Hope a few of the folks are on this list.  Maybe they could point me to some of their work.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1?/min.





From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 07:11:33 2006
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 04:11:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <20060925111133.78567.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/


RECENT POSTS


The enigmatic poetics of Beverly Dahlen

On poetry in Iran and Nigeria

Who needs to read?

Eileen Tabios channels Gabriela Silang

Translating translation
in the Mauve Desert
by Nicole Brossard

Lots of frosting on very little cake ???
Aaron Sorkin and Studio 60

Context as a material of art
in the work of Hai Bo,
Yoko Ono et al
in the galleries of New York

Questioning Steve Benson

Why is Lisa Robertson 
the most read poet
in the annual Attention Span survey
once again?

Stephanie Young???s breakthrough book
Telling the Future Off

Squandering the American century
(notes on 9/11 five years on)

Fanny Howe???s
war on terror

Notes on two readings

Brooklyn Rail
and the sale of Cody???s

The backup bands
of Bob Dylan
(one vote for Paul Butterfield)

The secret of The Illusionist
is that male character actors
make for good leads

Michael Knight will win
Project Runway

The ear of Laura Elrick

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 10:07:37 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:07:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
Message-ID: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  
writes:

As a  poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all 
honesty and  a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web 
publication and  I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a 
major  online presence. 


I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay  
relevant...but
I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way  
entirely...abandoning
printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at  
least continue
to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I spend  
a lot
of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of  
holding a perfect
bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through  
it. I know
we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a  wireless 
connection,
but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree  on a warm 
autumn day...
Ah, waxing nostalgic...
Finnegan 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/7186c9f7/attachment.html>

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 10:33:40 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:33:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
References: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609250733w5c834341pb4e079e45db4814e@mail.gmail.com>

I have to agre, Jim.

It would be a shame to abandon printed journals.  Personally, I love the
tangibilty of print journals (& books, for that matter).  However, it seems
hopelessly limiting for a decent print journal NOT to maintain a productive
online presence.  I know there are some luddites in the literary industry.
However, a great number of print journals are moving toward email/electronic
submissions.  The old stagard journals like The Georgia Review, the Southern
Review, and a host of others still refuse to take online submissions--and I
fully understand why.  Think about the number of submissions you'd get from
disenfranchised 14-year-old goths.  I'm being fatuous, but I think you see
my point.

However, it seems to me that journals are going to *have* to start taking
e-submissions (did I coin a new word?).

Editors on the list: do you take email submissions?  If not, why?  I'd like
to hear some people involved in literary publishing talk about this trend.

All the best,

Jeff Newberry


On 9/25/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jfq at myuw.net writes:
>
> As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all
> honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web
> publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't
> have a major online presence.
>
>  I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay
> relevant...but
> I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way
> entirely...abandoning
> printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at
> least continue
> to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I
> spend a lot
> of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of
> holding a perfect
> bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through
> it. I know
> we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a wireless
> connection,
> but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on a warm
> autumn day...
> Ah, waxing nostalgic...
> Finnegan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/fbce64a0/attachment.html>

From millb at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 10:50:21 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:50:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609250733w5c834341pb4e079e45db4814e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
	<731bb17a0609250733w5c834341pb4e079e45db4814e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C8AEC90F244037-53C-2CDB@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com>

I think online journals are just like the business world.  A web presence now is like having a phone.
Probably bad analogy, but you get the idea.  
 
If I go to a department store and, after, decide to check on something online (say I wanted another color pants), I am shocked if the physical store does not have a web page.  And, a lot of, if not most universities have web pages, with many literary journals piggy-backing those. It's a rare time when someone I know, even, does not have a web page, so it would make sense for journals and print magazines to have an online presence.
 
What tickles me is that the online presence is often different (more hip? more experimental? more friendly?) than the print version. Like, say, for example, The New Yorker.
 
That said, web and print are different medias.  And, I dare say, for different audiences. 
 
Take Poets and Writers, for another example, in my opinion, the academic readers of the print version are very different than the disenfranchised 14 year old goths who post society is dying poems in P and W's Speakeasy.
 
Cheers,
Mill
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com
Sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web


I have to agre, Jim.  
 
It would be a shame to abandon printed journals.  Personally, I love the tangibilty of print journals (& books, for that matter).  However, it seems hopelessly limiting for a decent print journal NOT to maintain a productive online presence.  I know there are some luddites in the literary industry.  However, a great number of print journals are moving toward email/electronic submissions.  The old stagard journals like The Georgia Review, the Southern Review, and a host of others still refuse to take online submissions--and I fully understand why.  Think about the number of submissions you'd get from disenfranchised 14-year-old goths.  I'm being fatuous, but I think you see my point. 
 
However, it seems to me that journals are going to have to start taking e-submissions (did I coin a new word?).
 
Editors on the list: do you take email submissions?  If not, why?  I'd like to hear some people involved in literary publishing talk about this trend.
 
All the best,
 
Jeff Newberry

 
On 9/25/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net writes:
As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a major online presence. 
I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay relevant...but
I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way entirely...abandoning
printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at least continue
to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I spend a lot
of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of holding a perfect
bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through it. I know
we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a wireless connection,
but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on a warm autumn day...
Ah, waxing nostalgic...
Finnegan 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/4c375a4e/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 25 11:03:12 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:03:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
References: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6D4B1DEB-84C2-489F-A597-9780074DD625@earthlink.net>

Thank God that laptops are light enough nowadays to carry
out to that tree in the park.

Hal

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be."
			--Anon.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 25, 2006, at 10:07 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> jfq at myuw.net writes:
> As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with  
> all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing  
> against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any  
> journal that doesn't have a major online presence.
> I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to  
> stay relevant...but
> I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way  
> entirely...abandoning
> printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals  
> will at least continue
> to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because  
> I spend a lot
> of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge  
> of holding a perfect
> bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing  
> through it. I know
> we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a  
> wireless connection,
> but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on  
> a warm autumn day...
> Ah, waxing nostalgic...
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/4258dd13/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep 25 12:33:52 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <8C8AEC90F244037-53C-2CDB@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609250933520.29350@hur12.myuw.net>


I really hate Poets & Writers magazine and I think it's a prime example of everything that's wrong with print and electronic media. I think mcsweeney's is a much better example of a way to go. And there are bigger journals that take online submissions. Fence and Rattle leap to mind.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 millb at aol.com wrote:

> I think online journals are just like the business world.  A web presence now is like having a phone.
> Probably bad analogy, but you get the idea.
>
> If I go to a department store and, after, decide to check on something online (say I wanted another color pants), I am shocked if the physical store does not have a web page.  And, a lot of, if not most universities have web pages, with many literary journals piggy-backing those. It's a rare time when someone I know, even, does not have a web page, so it would make sense for journals and print magazines to have an online presence.
>
> What tickles me is that the online presence is often different (more hip? more experimental? more friendly?) than the print version. Like, say, for example, The New Yorker.
>
> That said, web and print are different medias.  And, I dare say, for different audiences.
>
> Take Poets and Writers, for another example, in my opinion, the academic readers of the print version are very different than the disenfranchised 14 year old goths who post society is dying poems in P and W's Speakeasy.
>
> Cheers,
> Mill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com
> Sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
>
>
> I have to agre, Jim.
>
> It would be a shame to abandon printed journals.  Personally, I love the tangibilty of print journals (& books, for that matter).  However, it seems hopelessly limiting for a decent print journal NOT to maintain a productive online presence.  I know there are some luddites in the literary industry.  However, a great number of print journals are moving toward email/electronic submissions.  The old stagard journals like The Georgia Review, the Southern Review, and a host of others still refuse to take online submissions--and I fully understand why.  Think about the number of submissions you'd get from disenfranchised 14-year-old goths.  I'm being fatuous, but I think you see my point.
>
> However, it seems to me that journals are going to have to start taking e-submissions (did I coin a new word?).
>
> Editors on the list: do you take email submissions?  If not, why?  I'd like to hear some people involved in literary publishing talk about this trend.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 9/25/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net writes:
> As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a major online presence.
> I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay relevant...but
> I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way entirely...abandoning
> printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at least continue
> to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I spend a lot
> of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of holding a perfect
> bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through it. I know
> we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a wireless connection,
> but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on a warm autumn day...
> Ah, waxing nostalgic...
> Finnegan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                   --Johnny Cash
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 13:43:57 2006
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] We Start Off Slow And Get Our Groove ....
In-Reply-To: <ADEC2644-FD3E-44E6-9D2A-86CEEC3633DB@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20060925174357.77468.qmail@web83110.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

***  I interviewed Bill Berkson, who was in New York City this weekend.  We start off a bit slow and find our groove, touching on Poetics, New York School, art & the state of the world, etc.  
   
  Stream or download:  http://miporadio.blogspot.com/2006/09/amy-king-interviews-bill-berkson-part.html  ---   [http://www.miporadio.com] 
   
   
  ***  Also, Bill Berkson & Bernadette Mayer have a new book just out:
   
  WHAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A GOOD TIME?  INTERVIEWS AND LETTERS 1977-1985
   
  http://www.spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=1931157081
   
   
  Hope you enjoy!
   
  Amy King
  http://www.amyking.org/blog
   
   
   
   

 		
---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/5113daf6/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Sep 25 16:14:53 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:14:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
References: <4c0.5da43f80.32493ca9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c6e0df$45128bd0$a7b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net writes:
    As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a major online presence. 
  I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay relevant...but
  I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way entirely...abandoning
  printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at least continue
  to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I spend a lot
  of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of holding a perfect
  bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through it. I know
  we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a wireless connection,
  but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on a warm autumn day...
  Ah, waxing nostalgic...
  Finnegan 

  I was just thinking with amusement at how, in twenty years, when all the professors send their stuff just about exclusively to on-line publications, it will be as rare to find the work of a short-lister in hard copy as it now is to find on the Internet.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/1d5a648b/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 16:52:27 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:52:27 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <005301c6dffd$26774b30$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <20060924161811.61819.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<005301c6dffd$26774b30$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <fde503480609251352q51681fcfm8dfca596f7555df0@mail.gmail.com>

>From the scant evidence, Nick Laird seems happy at what he does. I
can't raise the ill-will to dis them in this way. If they want to put
their neck out to become full-time writers - Laird left a legal job to
do so - well, more power to them.

Roger

On 9/24/06, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except the
> one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is
> they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little or
> nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors
> publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find poets
> to give money to.
>
> Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 17:26:08 2006
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <005a01c6e0df$45128bd0$a7b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20060925212608.57669.qmail@web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In-print journals are fine for a minute, but they rarely appeal to me the way a book by an author does.  We should publish poetry by assorted poets primarily in online journals and magazines because the aesthetics/likings of editors rarely suit or pique my attention across the board.  It's expensive to publish journals that'll provide maybe three poems I'll like and want to return to. Think of the trees I could've saved by not guiltily shelving all of those Fences (complimentary subscriptions for entering their contests).  
   
  But I do return to books by single authors regulary.  Call me a name-brander, but if I spend money on an actual book that contains poems, it's nearly always a book by a single poet whose work I've found online somewhere.  Online journals provide that variety and introduction to unknown poets much more effectively and efficiently than in-print journals used to.  In fact before the proliferation of online publishing, I'd pretty much settle into a bookstore for an hour and leaf through journals.  If I came across poets whose work I liked, I would wander off in search of their books to spend my dollars on.
   
  Online journals also provide audio that most print journals don't.  Check out MiPOesias for a good idea:  http://www.mipoesias.com  
   
  Yes, it's true,
   
  Amy King
  Managing Editor
  MiPOesias

Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
          In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:54:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net writes:
      As a poet under thirty who's never won a damn thing, I can say with all honesty and a huge ego that most of my true peers have nothing against web publication and I, personally, look skeptically at any journal that doesn't have a major online presence. 
  
  I'd agree that a print magazine needs a true online presence to stay relevant...but
  I think the real danger (or loss) would be going the other way entirely...abandoning
  printed matter completely for the e-nvironment. I hope journals will at least continue
  to create physical issues via print-on-demand. It's perhaps because I spend a lot
  of my working hours in front of a screen, that I welcome the refuge of holding a perfect
  bound or staple bound printed publication in my hands and leafing through it. I know
  we can bring our notebooks anywhere and almost everywhere find a wireless connection,
  but to me there is nothing like reading in the park under a tree on a warm autumn day...
  Ah, waxing nostalgic...
  Finnegan 
   
  I was just thinking with amusement at how, in twenty years, when all the professors send their stuff just about exclusively to on-line publications, it will be as rare to find the work of a short-lister in hard copy as it now is to find on the Internet.
   
  --Bob G.

 		
---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/42e6dcc9/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Mon Sep 25 18:10:14 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:10:14 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dogs eat Babies
References: <20060925212608.57669.qmail@web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003101c6e0ef$61f01f50$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

I often think to myself that I make things out to be worse than they are, but when I discover, via the news, that in my home city this is what really goes on, well:

I know the New Parks estate, it is awful, don't know the Rocket pub, thank God, we are still trying to work out why a baby was climbing up a ladder and b) why a rottweiler was doing the same.

Ashamed to be from Leicester

Dave

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/f6ea8936/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 19:29:36 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:29:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
Message-ID: <3f0.aafbba3.3249c060@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:

 
Online journals also provide audio that most print journals  don't.  Check 
out MiPOesias for a good idea:  _http://www.mipoesias.com_ 
(http://www.mipoesias.com/)   
 



Speaking audio...we've got the stream working on
_http://www.litstation.com_ (http://www.litstation.com) 
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/774ebd86/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 19:42:26 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:42:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
Message-ID: <c41.3a6ed95.3249c362@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:

 
Online journals also provide audio that most print journals  don't.



This brings up another question...are any poets selling MP3 downloads
of their poems? If we didn't give it all away for free, would people pay  for 
it?
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/16f50257/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep 25 19:50:32 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <c41.3a6ed95.3249c362@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251650320.1760@hur11.myuw.net>


WetAsphalt has a middle term goal of providing audio of select public domain works as a subscription for a small fee just to see if people are interested in paying for audio of good poetry. From there, we might branch into a poets reading their own work series, but that's still in the early talking stages with us.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> Online journals also provide audio that most print journals  don't.
>
>
>
> This brings up another question...are any poets selling MP3 downloads
> of their poems? If we didn't give it all away for free, would people pay  for
> it?
> Finnegan
>




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 19:55:37 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:55:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
Message-ID: <c71.cf0f7a.3249c679@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/25/2006 11:04:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

Thank  God that laptops are light enough nowadays to carry  
out to that tree in the park.



If you'd check your blackberrry, you'lll see I just sent
you a poem. E-gad...
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060925/e4c5869f/attachment.html>

From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Mon Sep 25 20:31:42 2006
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:31:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251650320.1760@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <c41.3a6ed95.3249c362@aol.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251650320.1760@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20060925192447.01fbf920@mail.ilstu.edu>

Speaking of audio. . . .

The local NPR affiliate at Illinois State University, WGLT, has been airing 
a show called Poetry Radio for over 14 years now (10A & 10P on Tues & 
Thurs, & 10P on Sun).  It features a single poem, often read by the poet 
(but not always).  Just this month we've been able to start offering audio 
versions at the station's website.  Go to

                         http://www.wglt.org/programs/poetry/index.shtml

Or you can listen on-line (taking account of the time-zone changes--we're 
on Central Time here) by going to www.wglt.org and clicking on the button 
that says "Listen."

                                                                         cheers,

                                                                         Bill
At 06:50 PM 9/25/2006, you wrote:

>WetAsphalt has a middle term goal of providing audio of select public 
>domain works as a subscription for a small fee just to see if people are 
>interested in paying for audio of good poetry. From there, we might branch 
>into a poets reading their own work series, but that's still in the early 
>talking stages with us.
>
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>
>>Online journals also provide audio that most print journals  don't.
>>
>>
>>
>>This brings up another question...are any poets selling MP3 downloads
>>of their poems? If we didn't give it all away for free, would people pay  for
>>it?
>>Finnegan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep 25 22:17:06 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609251352q51681fcfm8dfca596f7555df0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251917060.9377@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

This kind of attitude kind of annoys me. the position seems to be that a.) this is a risk for these people as if they're truly working without a net, which is false and b.) everyone has the opportunity to "stick their neck out" which is laughable.

Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege that's arrived at through all manner of often unremarked upon factors including not having paid for ones own education, having family money to fall back on if you fail, a willingness to play political games and make creative compromises for the shallow gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase oneself in order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of creative writing programs.

none of these things are a risk for anyone who does them. Which isn't to say there aren't some nice people who are trying to be professional writers, but lets be real here. When was the last time any one of us met someone who'd been evicted because they weren't selling their writing? We all know lots of writers, so it must have happened, right? I can only think of one example, and that guy is as far from these "career laners," and it's a good word for them, as can be. And even he had a bit of a safety net.

Never mind that this idea that writing is a profession; that one is a professional writer, not fulfilling a role in a culture as a storyteller or a historian or a poet; is complete bollocks. It's just another example of middle class hubris taking something worthwhile, good and beautiful and reducing it to the same enervated, mindless class of endeavor as selling time shares or banking. Writing well is better than that sort of thing and poets and story tellers and historians are better than bankers and salesmen. That's the beauty of art, that a janitor or a salesman or a postal clerk or a garbage man who has talent and vision can rise above the mere petty financial rewards of his occupation and get down to real work that is judged and rewarded primarily by and for it's merit, and in doing so rise above the debasements of his labors.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:

>> From the scant evidence, Nick Laird seems happy at what he does. I
> can't raise the ill-will to dis them in this way. If they want to put
> their neck out to become full-time writers - Laird left a legal job to
> do so - well, more power to them.
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/24/06, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except the
>> one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is
>> they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little or
>> nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors
>> publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find poets
>> to give money to.
>> 
>> Bob G.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep 25 22:50:53 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:50:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251917060.9377@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <00e601c6e116$9976d5f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: <jfq at myuw.net>

> Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege ... the shallow 
> gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase oneself in 
> order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of creative 
> writing programs.
>

All possibly true.  Unfortunately, it's totally misdirected, responding as 
it does to a comment from Roger Day from a UK perspective on UK writers. 
Almost all of those shortlisted for the prize are resident in the UK.  While 
we do have some (although compared with both with the US and with other UK 
teaching programs, relatively few) creative writing programs, there aren't 
enough around to make a career from.

This diatribe, and what follows, seems to be hung on the wrong coatpeg.

There's lots wrong in the UK, but so far we've been spared the full horrors 
of the MFA Route.

Robin Hamilton 




From jfq at myuw.net  Mon Sep 25 23:04:10 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <00e601c6e116$9976d5f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609252004100.4377@hymn08.u.washington.edu>


Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons' ability to rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is, and the vast superiority in opportunity available through the arts council and the BBC as opposed to what we have in the NEA and PBS.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
>
>> Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege ... the shallow 
>> gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase oneself in 
>> order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of creative 
>> writing programs.
>> 
>
> All possibly true.  Unfortunately, it's totally misdirected, responding as it 
> does to a comment from Roger Day from a UK perspective on UK writers. Almost 
> all of those shortlisted for the prize are resident in the UK.  While we do 
> have some (although compared with both with the US and with other UK teaching 
> programs, relatively few) creative writing programs, there aren't enough around 
> to make a career from.
>
> This diatribe, and what follows, seems to be hung on the wrong coatpeg.
>
> There's lots wrong in the UK, but so far we've been spared the full horrors of 
> the MFA Route.
>
> Robin Hamilton _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 26 00:48:11 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 05:48:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609252004100.4377@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <000701c6e126$fa1c8de0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an
american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons' ability to
rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is,<

Well, that's fascinating, speaking as a Briton. The only JSA I can think of
is Job Seekers' Allowance, is that what you mean? I like the notion of these
vast opportunities we supposedly have over here too, cue ironic laughter.

Best

Dave



From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 00:54:23 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:54:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <000701c6e126$fa1c8de0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609252154230.4377@hymn08.u.washington.edu>

compared to unemployment insurance in the states, the Job Seekers Allowance is a product of a socialist utopia that allows for unprecedented freedom and security in the workforce. like i said, as flawed as that system is, it beats what we got hands down, and I'd trade you all teh creative writing programs in the world for its equivalent in the US.



On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:

>> Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an
> american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons' ability to
> rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is,<
>
> Well, that's fascinating, speaking as a Briton. The only JSA I can think of
> is Job Seekers' Allowance, is that what you mean? I like the notion of these
> vast opportunities we supposedly have over here too, cue ironic laughter.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 26 02:17:54 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:17:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
References: <c71.cf0f7a.3249c679@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c6e133$80e598b0$9fad3452@ANNY>

I am also all pro-pc's, I also want one
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:55 AM


  In a message dated 9/25/2006 11:04:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
    Thank God that laptops are light enough nowadays to carry 
    out to that tree in the park.
  If you'd check your blackberrry, you'lll see I just sent
  you a poem. E-gad...
  Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/22361093/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 26 02:22:04 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:22:04 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
References: <3f0.aafbba3.3249c060@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c6e134$1628cf00$9fad3452@ANNY>

Perfect Audio, Congratulations!
Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:29 AM


  In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:

    Online journals also provide audio that most print journals don't.  Check out MiPOesias for a good idea:  http://www.mipoesias.com  

  Speaking audio...we've got the stream working on
  http://www.litstation.com
  Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/71058b0c/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 26 03:32:50 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:32:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609252154230.4377@hymn08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <001101c6e13d$fa0d2d20$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

This is interesting, explain to me more about US unemployment insurance,
believe me, Britain is no socialist utopia, wish it was.

All the Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks


> compared to unemployment insurance in the states, the Job Seekers
Allowance is a product of a socialist utopia that allows for unprecedented
freedom and security in the workforce. like i said, as flawed as that system
is, it beats what we got hands down, and I'd trade you all teh creative
writing programs in the world for its equivalent in the US.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>
> >> Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an
> > american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons' ability
to
> > rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is,<
> >
> > Well, that's fascinating, speaking as a Briton. The only JSA I can think
of
> > is Job Seekers' Allowance, is that what you mean? I like the notion of
these
> > vast opportunities we supposedly have over here too, cue ironic
laughter.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 04:29:39 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <001101c6e13d$fa0d2d20$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net>

a.) It's almost impossible to get unless you lost your job due to a large scale lay off b.) if you can get it, you only get an amount based on a percentage of your earnings over the last 12 months, rather than, I think, 24 in Britain c.) You actually pay for it through payroll deductions of from your paycheck, d.) even though should you lose your job, quit, or get fired for whatever reason, your employer, who has to pay for your unemployment for the six months you can get it for, if you're lucky, can challenge your application forcing you to fight for it. So it's basically a tax that benefits employers and that allows the US government to underrepresent its unemployment numbers (since the unemployment numbers are supposed to represent just those seeking work, they just use the enrollment on unemployment as their number, even though, as I said, it's hard to get unemployment if you're unemployed so most unemployed people aren't on the rolls.)

So to me, the Dole sounds like a pretty sweet set-up, from what I understand about it.


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> This is interesting, explain to me more about US unemployment insurance,
> believe me, Britain is no socialist utopia, wish it was.
>
> All the Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
>
>
>> compared to unemployment insurance in the states, the Job Seekers
> Allowance is a product of a socialist utopia that allows for unprecedented
> freedom and security in the workforce. like i said, as flawed as that system
> is, it beats what we got hands down, and I'd trade you all teh creative
> writing programs in the world for its equivalent in the US.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>>
>>>> Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an
>>> american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons' ability
> to
>>> rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is,<
>>>
>>> Well, that's fascinating, speaking as a Briton. The only JSA I can think
> of
>>> is Job Seekers' Allowance, is that what you mean? I like the notion of
> these
>>> vast opportunities we supposedly have over here too, cue ironic
> laughter.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 26 05:36:11 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:36:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if you
didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is that
the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about people
sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.

No more than that though.

Care

Dave on the Dole


----- Original Message -----
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks


> a.) It's almost impossible to get unless you lost your job due to a large
scale lay off b.) if you can get it, you only get an amount based on a
percentage of your earnings over the last 12 months, rather than, I think,
24 in Britain c.) You actually pay for it through payroll deductions of from
your paycheck, d.) even though should you lose your job, quit, or get fired
for whatever reason, your employer, who has to pay for your unemployment for
the six months you can get it for, if you're lucky, can challenge your
application forcing you to fight for it. So it's basically a tax that
benefits employers and that allows the US government to underrepresent its
unemployment numbers (since the unemployment numbers are supposed to
represent just those seeking work, they just use the enrollment on
unemployment as their number, even though, as I said, it's hard to get
unemployment if you're unemployed so most unemployed people aren't on the
rolls.)
>
> So to me, the Dole sounds like a pretty sweet set-up, from what I
understand about it.
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>
> > This is interesting, explain to me more about US unemployment insurance,
> > believe me, Britain is no socialist utopia, wish it was.
> >
> > All the Best
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:54 AM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
> >
> >
> >> compared to unemployment insurance in the states, the Job Seekers
> > Allowance is a product of a socialist utopia that allows for
unprecedented
> > freedom and security in the workforce. like i said, as flawed as that
system
> > is, it beats what we got hands down, and I'd trade you all teh creative
> > writing programs in the world for its equivalent in the US.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Well, that's nice, i'm sure. At the same time, i'll assert that as an
> >>> american leftist and entitled to my insane jealousy of britons'
ability
> > to
> >>> rely on the JSA, as flawed as that system is,<
> >>>
> >>> Well, that's fascinating, speaking as a Briton. The only JSA I can
think
> > of
> >>> is Job Seekers' Allowance, is that what you mean? I like the notion of
> > these
> >>> vast opportunities we supposedly have over here too, cue ironic
> > laughter.
> >>>
> >>> Best
> >>>
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Sep 26 06:18:43 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:18:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251917060.9377@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
	<00e601c6e116$9976d5f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <002201c6e155$26e2b7e0$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I would argue that the Brits have their own variety of careerism.  To me a 
careerist poet is one who is out to make it big as a poet (i.e. is after 
status, not accomplishment), which doesn't necessarily mean making big bucks 
(although it does mean writing the kind of derivative crud that wins 
prizes).  And careerists do what their mentors do, whether their mentors are 
MFA professors or pop singers.

--Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks


> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
>
>> Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege ... the shallow 
>> gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase oneself 
>> in order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of 
>> creative writing programs.
>>
>
> All possibly true.  Unfortunately, it's totally misdirected, responding as 
> it does to a comment from Roger Day from a UK perspective on UK writers. 
> Almost all of those shortlisted for the prize are resident in the UK. 
> While we do have some (although compared with both with the US and with 
> other UK teaching programs, relatively few) creative writing programs, 
> there aren't enough around to make a career from.
>
> This diatribe, and what follows, seems to be hung on the wrong coatpeg.
>
> There's lots wrong in the UK, but so far we've been spared the full 
> horrors of the MFA Route.
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 06:36:10 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:36:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251917060.9377@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
References: <fde503480609251352q51681fcfm8dfca596f7555df0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609251917060.9377@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260336h707adc3dkd975512c34aa969f@mail.gmail.com>

this kind of class-war-lite attitude annoys me. the best description I
can come up with is "confected".

Roger

On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> This kind of attitude kind of annoys me. the position seems to be that a.) this is a risk for these people as if they're truly working without a net, which is false and b.) everyone has the opportunity to "stick their neck out" which is laughable.
>
> Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege that's arrived at through all manner of often unremarked upon factors including not having paid for ones own education, having family money to fall back on if you fail, a willingness to play political games and make creative compromises for the shallow gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase oneself in order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of creative writing programs.
>
> none of these things are a risk for anyone who does them. Which isn't to say there aren't some nice people who are trying to be professional writers, but lets be real here. When was the last time any one of us met someone who'd been evicted because they weren't selling their writing? We all know lots of writers, so it must have happened, right? I can only think of one example, and that guy is as far from these "career laners," and it's a good word for them, as can be. And even he had a bit of a safety net.
>
> Never mind that this idea that writing is a profession; that one is a professional writer, not fulfilling a role in a culture as a storyteller or a historian or a poet; is complete bollocks. It's just another example of middle class hubris taking something worthwhile, good and beautiful and reducing it to the same enervated, mindless class of endeavor as selling time shares or banking. Writing well is better than that sort of thing and poets and story tellers and historians are better than bankers and salesmen. That's the beauty of art, that a janitor or a salesman or a postal clerk or a garbage man who has talent and vision can rise above the mere petty financial rewards of his occupation and get down to real work that is judged and rewarded primarily by and for it's merit, and in doing so rise above the debasements of his labors.
>
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>
> >> From the scant evidence, Nick Laird seems happy at what he does. I
> > can't raise the ill-will to dis them in this way. If they want to put
> > their neck out to become full-time writers - Laird left a legal job to
> > do so - well, more power to them.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > On 9/24/06, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except the
> >> one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is
> >> they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little or
> >> nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors
> >> publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find poets
> >> to give money to.
> >>
> >> Bob G.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.badstep.net/
> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> > Suspicion breeds confidence
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 06:42:36 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:42:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net>
	<000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260342t52319e74l6a84f06988b82198@mail.gmail.com>

I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.

and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.

Roger

On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if you
> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is that
> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about people
> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
>
> No more than that though.
>
> Care
>
> Dave on the Dole

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 26 07:04:28 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:04:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net><000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<fde503480609260342t52319e74l6a84f06988b82198@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101c6e15b$8a6a65a0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Bollocks to you, Roger. I am not on JSA I am on Income Support, because the
doctors reckon I'm not well.

All the Best

(Grin)

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks


> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
>
> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if
you
> > didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
> > nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is
that
> > the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about
people
> > sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
> >
> > No more than that though.
> >
> > Care
> >
> > Dave on the Dole
>
> --
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 07:17:35 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 04:17:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize.  Rent.  MFA
Message-ID: <20060926111735.97959.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 There is a comment asking how many of us know a writer that has been evicted for failing to pay rent bc of work not selling.  Imagine this is looking in the rear view mirror.  I imagine a time when it would have been possible to sell stories and from those sales, pay rent.  I've read A movable feast.  Ah, those were the days. Seems to me now that those days are so far away.  How many stories would you have to sell to pay rent?  Seems pretty near impossible.  Not even something the most dedicated writer would hope for.  No, me thinks, you need to sell a book and sell it big to make enough to live on.  So, that might be why you don't hear about these people, they don't really exist much anymore.  We all tend bar in our spare time to make ends meet.   
 
 
 And  
 
 
 Please no more about how awful the MFA thing is.  I'm sorry if your experience was terrible (and are informed).  I'm sorry if you never attended one (and have no idea what you are talking about). Actually, I'm not sorry at all.  Really, we all do what we need to do to get better.  Would I take an MFA now, no.  Am I glad I took one (at good ol Naropa) a few years back, yes.  What is it to you?
 
 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/a29227f2/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 09:36:00 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:36:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] site of the inferno found
In-Reply-To: <c0b.466e0bc.3246ca52@aol.com>
References: <c0b.466e0bc.3246ca52@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260636n667c69c8p10df1babd4e3ef45@mail.gmail.com>

looks like Butlins for Goths

Roger

On 9/23/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> This was pointed to on another list...
> a guide to Dante's Inferno (& the intro
> is worth waiting through, too):
> http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 26 09:40:41 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:40:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net><000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<fde503480609260342t52319e74l6a84f06988b82198@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003701c6e171$61281a50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

>I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.

I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job 
Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and at 
that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think 
that, unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. 
And mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off 
the state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters 
column of the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)

And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to 
keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style to 
which he's accustomed.

            Robin

> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if 
>> you
>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is 
>> that
>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about people
>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
>>
>> No more than that though.
>>
>> Care
>>
>> Dave on the Dole 




From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 09:57:55 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:57:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <003701c6e171$61281a50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260129390.9924@hur12.myuw.net>
	<000501c6e14f$3579d280$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<fde503480609260342t52319e74l6a84f06988b82198@mail.gmail.com>
	<003701c6e171$61281a50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260657j6f998d09ld439972eeacc5ac9@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah

I didn't think that the Job Seekers Allowance actually warranted a
TLA. It's always been The Dole.

On 9/26/06, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> >I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> > years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
>
> I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
> Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and at
> that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think
> that, unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way.
> And mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off
> the state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters
> column of the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
>
> And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to
> keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style to
> which he's accustomed.

I'm sure Dave knows banter when he sees it. I have in my time been
grateful for the dole or I'd be still digging turnips. Just make sure
his royalties don't rise above his permitted income or he'll be in
trouble : ) Keepin' it real

Roger
-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 10:04:59 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 07:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609260336h707adc3dkd975512c34aa969f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260704590.16297@hur11.myuw.net>


it's really not class war "lite." you just caught me on a good day.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:

> this kind of class-war-lite attitude annoys me. the best description I
> can come up with is "confected".
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> This kind of attitude kind of annoys me. the position seems to be that a.) 
>> this is a risk for these people as if they're truly working without a net, 
>> which is false and b.) everyone has the opportunity to "stick their neck 
>> out" which is laughable.
>> 
>> Being able to stick your neck out is a privilege that's arrived at through 
>> all manner of often unremarked upon factors including not having paid for 
>> ones own education, having family money to fall back on if you fail, a 
>> willingness to play political games and make creative compromises for the 
>> shallow gratification of improving one's CV and being willing to debase 
>> oneself in order fight for scraps of stale bread in the sick sad world of 
>> creative writing programs.
>> 
>> none of these things are a risk for anyone who does them. Which isn't to say 
>> there aren't some nice people who are trying to be professional writers, but 
>> lets be real here. When was the last time any one of us met someone who'd 
>> been evicted because they weren't selling their writing? We all know lots of 
>> writers, so it must have happened, right? I can only think of one example, 
>> and that guy is as far from these "career laners," and it's a good word for 
>> them, as can be. And even he had a bit of a safety net.
>> 
>> Never mind that this idea that writing is a profession; that one is a 
>> professional writer, not fulfilling a role in a culture as a storyteller or 
>> a historian or a poet; is complete bollocks. It's just another example of 
>> middle class hubris taking something worthwhile, good and beautiful and 
>> reducing it to the same enervated, mindless class of endeavor as selling 
>> time shares or banking. Writing well is better than that sort of thing and 
>> poets and story tellers and historians are better than bankers and salesmen. 
>> That's the beauty of art, that a janitor or a salesman or a postal clerk or 
>> a garbage man who has talent and vision can rise above the mere petty 
>> financial rewards of his occupation and get down to real work that is judged 
>> and rewarded primarily by and for it's merit, and in doing so rise above the 
>> debasements of his labors.
>> 
>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>> 
>> >> From the scant evidence, Nick Laird seems happy at what he does. I
>> > can't raise the ill-will to dis them in this way. If they want to put
>> > their neck out to become full-time writers - Laird left a legal job to
>> > do so - well, more power to them.
>> >
>> > Roger
>> >
>> > On 9/24/06, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't know anything at all about the people on this short list (except 
>> the
>> >> one whose Iowa plaintext lyrical poem was posted here) but my guess is
>> >> they're all completely career-laners, and most career-laners know little 
>> or
>> >> nothing about the Internet.  They publish where their professors
>> >> publish--and where award-bestowers and their screeners only go to find 
>> poets
>> >> to give money to.
>> >>
>> >> Bob G.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://www.badstep.net/
>> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
>> > Suspicion breeds confidence
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 10:18:28 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize.  Rent.  MFA
In-Reply-To: <20060926111735.97959.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260718280.16297@hur11.myuw.net>

Why MFA's are bad:

1.) People with MFAs all write the same. If they write prose they all write like Raymond Carver. If they write poetry they write like Sharon Olds. That's crap and I don't like it.

2.) People with MFAs teach other people to have MFAs. MFAs are recursively self-reflexively self-replicating. Like replicants in some bad sci-fi movie. Which means, all that hand-wringing about what it means to be human and have an identity aside, that MFAs are evil robots out to destroy mankind.

3.) People with MFAs conspire to overthrow democratically elected governments in the third world. It's been documented on several websites so it has to be true.

4.) People with MFAs eat babies. Don't give me that "I have an MFA and I don't eat babies. And I have lots of MFA friends and only a couple of them do." It's a bunch of crap. MFAs are baby eaters.


seriously though, my objection isn't to MFAs, it's to the MFA system and the people who unapologetically, uncritically engage in it. That system is largely responsible for how boring fiction and poetry have gotten and the proliferation of crap literary magazines whose sole purpose seems to be to allow still more people with MFAs to make the long slow climb up to publication in the FUCKING New Yorker, which is the crowning gem in the rayment of boredom pablum that American literature has become. Never mind the fact that, particularly with fiction, you can almost hear the bullshit that MFAs learn in all those writing workshops where they learned how to take dull. lifeless turds of ideas and polish them into bright, shiny, patriotic turds of ideas.

the only MFA writer I've ever truly enjoyed is David Foster Wallace, and I think he would have been good anyway.

Writing workshops are very bad for you. Even at Naropa. Probably especially at Naropa. What a goofy place. You might as well go to Berklee College of Music and study Record Production for all the good a writing workshop at Naropa is going to do you.

Tongue firmly planted in cheek because i can't believe anyone would feel like MFAs need defending,

JASON QUACKENBUSH
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:

> There is a comment asking how many of us know a writer that has been evicted for failing to pay rent bc of work not selling.  Imagine this is looking in the rear view mirror.  I imagine a time when it would have been possible to sell stories and from those sales, pay rent.  I've read A movable feast.  Ah, those were the days. Seems to me now that those days are so far away.  How many stories would you have to sell to pay rent?  Seems pretty near impossible.  Not even something the most dedicated writer would hope for.  No, me thinks, you need to sell a book and sell it big to make enough to live on.  So, that might be why you don't hear about these people, they don't really exist much anymore.  We all tend bar in our spare time to make ends meet.
>
>
> And
>
>
> Please no more about how awful the MFA thing is.  I'm sorry if your experience was terrible (and are informed).  I'm sorry if you never attended one (and have no idea what you are talking about). Actually, I'm not sorry at all.  Really, we all do what we need to do to get better.  Would I take an MFA now, no.  Am I glad I took one (at good ol Naropa) a few years back, yes.  What is it to you?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.





From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 10:23:12 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 07:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <003701c6e171$61281a50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260723120.16297@hur11.myuw.net>

See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex pistols and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was the same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's just a part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're telling me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and see what the alternative is.


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
>> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
>
> I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job 
> Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and at 
> that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think that, 
> unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. And 
> mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off the 
> state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters column of 
> the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
>
> And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to 
> keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style to 
> which he's accustomed.
>
>           Robin
>
>> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if 
>>> you
>>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
>>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is 
>>> that
>>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about people
>>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
>>> 
>>> No more than that though.
>>> 
>>> Care
>>> 
>>> Dave on the Dole 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Tue Sep 26 11:02:45 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 07:02:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize.  Rent.  MFA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260718280.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260718280.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <9B908946-5873-46EF-8626-8B50C418D066@uaf.edu>

Just a few comments about this. First, I was once an avid MFA hater,  
even though I was in a program (probably especially because I was).  
However, one day I came to realize that there is no more crap being  
produced today than was being produced 50 years ago, or even 100  
years ago. Most literature is boring crap, and the exceptions rise to  
the top. MFA's aren't the cause of that, crappy writers without  
passion are. Second, if there is a "pull to center" process that  
happens in MFA's, it is not the programs fault, but the writer's.  
Writers today are more interested in "making it" than understanding  
and pushing their craft. American writer's have lost their passion  
for words, and replaced it with a passion for the green devil (money,  
in case that isn't obvious enough). They all write like Sharon Olds,  
Billy Collins, etc., because that's what sells. What the MFA is good  
for is it allows you space, space to write, develop, and learn. It  
gives you a group of peers to bounce ideas off of. It's your fault if  
you cave the first time someone criticizes those ideas. It provides  
financial support so you can focus on writing, instead of splitting  
your time cleaning the fryers at the Fried Food Factory. Too many  
people bitch about MFA programs, instead putting the blame where it  
lies, on the people who enter MFA programs.

On Sep 26, 2006, at 6:18 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

> Why MFA's are bad:
>
> 1.) People with MFAs all write the same. If they write prose they  
> all write like Raymond Carver. If they write poetry they write like  
> Sharon Olds. That's crap and I don't like it.
>
> 2.) People with MFAs teach other people to have MFAs. MFAs are  
> recursively self-reflexively self-replicating. Like replicants in  
> some bad sci-fi movie. Which means, all that hand-wringing about  
> what it means to be human and have an identity aside, that MFAs are  
> evil robots out to destroy mankind.
>
> 3.) People with MFAs conspire to overthrow democratically elected  
> governments in the third world. It's been documented on several  
> websites so it has to be true.
>
> 4.) People with MFAs eat babies. Don't give me that "I have an MFA  
> and I don't eat babies. And I have lots of MFA friends and only a  
> couple of them do." It's a bunch of crap. MFAs are baby eaters.
>
>
> seriously though, my objection isn't to MFAs, it's to the MFA  
> system and the people who unapologetically, uncritically engage in  
> it. That system is largely responsible for how boring fiction and  
> poetry have gotten and the proliferation of crap literary magazines  
> whose sole purpose seems to be to allow still more people with MFAs  
> to make the long slow climb up to publication in the FUCKING New  
> Yorker, which is the crowning gem in the rayment of boredom pablum  
> that American literature has become. Never mind the fact that,  
> particularly with fiction, you can almost hear the bullshit that  
> MFAs learn in all those writing workshops where they learned how to  
> take dull. lifeless turds of ideas and polish them into bright,  
> shiny, patriotic turds of ideas.
>
> the only MFA writer I've ever truly enjoyed is David Foster  
> Wallace, and I think he would have been good anyway.
>
> Writing workshops are very bad for you. Even at Naropa. Probably  
> especially at Naropa. What a goofy place. You might as well go to  
> Berklee College of Music and study Record Production for all the  
> good a writing workshop at Naropa is going to do you.
>
> Tongue firmly planted in cheek because i can't believe anyone would  
> feel like MFAs need defending,
>
> JASON QUACKENBUSH
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:
>
>> There is a comment asking how many of us know a writer that has  
>> been evicted for failing to pay rent bc of work not selling.   
>> Imagine this is looking in the rear view mirror.  I imagine a time  
>> when it would have been possible to sell stories and from those  
>> sales, pay rent.  I've read A movable feast.  Ah, those were the  
>> days. Seems to me now that those days are so far away.  How many  
>> stories would you have to sell to pay rent?  Seems pretty near  
>> impossible.  Not even something the most dedicated writer would  
>> hope for.  No, me thinks, you need to sell a book and sell it big  
>> to make enough to live on.  So, that might be why you don't hear  
>> about these people, they don't really exist much anymore.  We all  
>> tend bar in our spare time to make ends meet.
>>
>>
>> And
>>
>>
>> Please no more about how awful the MFA thing is.  I'm sorry if  
>> your experience was terrible (and are informed).  I'm sorry if you  
>> never attended one (and have no idea what you are talking about).  
>> Actually, I'm not sorry at all.  Really, we all do what we need to  
>> do to get better.  Would I take an MFA now, no.  Am I glad I took  
>> one (at good ol Naropa) a few years back, yes.  What is it to you?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and  
>> 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 11:08:35 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:08:35 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260723120.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <003701c6e171$61281a50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260723120.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260808v4534281es398e9cf1c70ff5ff@mail.gmail.com>

It's more complex than that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseeker%27s_Allowance

gives a reasonable guide to the benefits provided by the UK state.
Also note it's the Jobseeker's Allowance, which isn't a TLA. You need
to have paid National Insurance contributions for at least 6 months to
get an allowance (or Unemployment Benefit as it was in my day).

The term "on the dole" was and is flexible.

going to the house of plenty to sign on means you can get called a
doley. Long-term unemployed are usually on Income Support.

Why should we take you seriously? You are clearly uninformed on so
many levels, the least of which stems from your inability to read
Wikipedia.

Dave should go to Texas and see the New Republic at work. I hear they
eat children down there.

Roger

On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex pistols and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was the same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's just a part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're telling me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and see what the alternative is.
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
> >> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> >> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
> >
> > I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
> > Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and at
> > that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think that,
> > unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. And
> > mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off the
> > state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters column of
> > the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
> >
> > And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to
> > keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style to
> > which he's accustomed.
> >
> >           Robin
> >
> >> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
> >>
> >> Roger
> >>
> >> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if
> >>> you
> >>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
> >>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is
> >>> that
> >>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about people
> >>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
> >>>
> >>> No more than that though.
> >>>
> >>> Care
> >>>
> >>> Dave on the Dole
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 11:20:15 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:20:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize. Rent. MFA
In-Reply-To: <9B908946-5873-46EF-8626-8B50C418D066@uaf.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260718280.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
	<9B908946-5873-46EF-8626-8B50C418D066@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260820w24147831va831417510f9df8c@mail.gmail.com>

In the UK they have MAs in  Creative Writing. I tried to get on one in
Norwich: I was told that I would be the odd one out in that most of
the students would want to write like Seamus Heaney. I was actively
discouraged from taking the Creative Writing course.

I agree that these courses aren't worth getting worked up over. The
Constant Sieve doesn't care if you've an MFA or a DPhill or University
Of Life. Unless I'm about to start a revolution and raze Cambidge Uni
to the ground, my energy is better spent elsewhere.

Roger

On 9/26/06, steve moore <fssam6 at uaf.edu> wrote:
> Just a few comments about this. First, I was once an avid MFA hater,
> even though I was in a program (probably especially because I was).
> However, one day I came to realize that there is no more crap being
> produced today than was being produced 50 years ago, or even 100
> years ago. Most literature is boring crap, and the exceptions rise to
> the top. MFA's aren't the cause of that, crappy writers without
> passion are. Second, if there is a "pull to center" process that
> happens in MFA's, it is not the programs fault, but the writer's.
> Writers today are more interested in "making it" than understanding
> and pushing their craft. American writer's have lost their passion
> for words, and replaced it with a passion for the green devil (money,
> in case that isn't obvious enough). They all write like Sharon Olds,
> Billy Collins, etc., because that's what sells. What the MFA is good
> for is it allows you space, space to write, develop, and learn. It
> gives you a group of peers to bounce ideas off of. It's your fault if
> you cave the first time someone criticizes those ideas. It provides
> financial support so you can focus on writing, instead of splitting
> your time cleaning the fryers at the Fried Food Factory. Too many
> people bitch about MFA programs, instead putting the blame where it
> lies, on the people who enter MFA programs.
>
> On Sep 26, 2006, at 6:18 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:
>
> > Why MFA's are bad:
> >
> > 1.) People with MFAs all write the same. If they write prose they
> > all write like Raymond Carver. If they write poetry they write like
> > Sharon Olds. That's crap and I don't like it.
> >
> > 2.) People with MFAs teach other people to have MFAs. MFAs are
> > recursively self-reflexively self-replicating. Like replicants in
> > some bad sci-fi movie. Which means, all that hand-wringing about
> > what it means to be human and have an identity aside, that MFAs are
> > evil robots out to destroy mankind.
> >
> > 3.) People with MFAs conspire to overthrow democratically elected
> > governments in the third world. It's been documented on several
> > websites so it has to be true.
> >
> > 4.) People with MFAs eat babies. Don't give me that "I have an MFA
> > and I don't eat babies. And I have lots of MFA friends and only a
> > couple of them do." It's a bunch of crap. MFAs are baby eaters.
> >
> >
> > seriously though, my objection isn't to MFAs, it's to the MFA
> > system and the people who unapologetically, uncritically engage in
> > it. That system is largely responsible for how boring fiction and
> > poetry have gotten and the proliferation of crap literary magazines
> > whose sole purpose seems to be to allow still more people with MFAs
> > to make the long slow climb up to publication in the FUCKING New
> > Yorker, which is the crowning gem in the rayment of boredom pablum
> > that American literature has become. Never mind the fact that,
> > particularly with fiction, you can almost hear the bullshit that
> > MFAs learn in all those writing workshops where they learned how to
> > take dull. lifeless turds of ideas and polish them into bright,
> > shiny, patriotic turds of ideas.
> >
> > the only MFA writer I've ever truly enjoyed is David Foster
> > Wallace, and I think he would have been good anyway.
> >
> > Writing workshops are very bad for you. Even at Naropa. Probably
> > especially at Naropa. What a goofy place. You might as well go to
> > Berklee College of Music and study Record Production for all the
> > good a writing workshop at Naropa is going to do you.
> >
> > Tongue firmly planted in cheek because i can't believe anyone would
> > feel like MFAs need defending,
> >
> > JASON QUACKENBUSH
> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:
> >
> >> There is a comment asking how many of us know a writer that has
> >> been evicted for failing to pay rent bc of work not selling.
> >> Imagine this is looking in the rear view mirror.  I imagine a time
> >> when it would have been possible to sell stories and from those
> >> sales, pay rent.  I've read A movable feast.  Ah, those were the
> >> days. Seems to me now that those days are so far away.  How many
> >> stories would you have to sell to pay rent?  Seems pretty near
> >> impossible.  Not even something the most dedicated writer would
> >> hope for.  No, me thinks, you need to sell a book and sell it big
> >> to make enough to live on.  So, that might be why you don't hear
> >> about these people, they don't really exist much anymore.  We all
> >> tend bar in our spare time to make ends meet.
> >>
> >>
> >> And
> >>
> >>
> >> Please no more about how awful the MFA thing is.  I'm sorry if
> >> your experience was terrible (and are informed).  I'm sorry if you
> >> never attended one (and have no idea what you are talking about).
> >> Actually, I'm not sorry at all.  Really, we all do what we need to
> >> do to get better.  Would I take an MFA now, no.  Am I glad I took
> >> one (at good ol Naropa) a few years back, yes.  What is it to you?
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------
> >> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
> >> 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence



From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 11:46:49 2006
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Friday, September 29th @ 7 p.m. - BOULLY, BELZ,
	AND HOWE
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609260820w24147831va831417510f9df8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060926154649.68513.qmail@web83114.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Friday, September 29th @ 7 p.m.
   
  Please come to Stain Bar in Williamsburg, Brooklyn where MiPOesias presents:
   
   
  *****  JENNY BOULLY, BRIAN HOWE, AND AARON BELZ  *****
   
  Jenny Boully's The Body was published in 2002 by Slope Editions. It is currently being translated for publication in Iran. Her chapbook "of the mismatched teacups, of the single-serving spoon" is forthcoming in April from the Coconut Chapbook Series. Another chapbook, "[one love affair]" is forthcoming from Tarpaulin Sky Paper Goods later this year. She has a new manuscript, The Book of Beginnings & Endings & Other Such Things, and is putting finishing touches on a memoir. She has just completed coursework in the Ph.D. program in English at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Born in Thailand and reared in Texas, she has studied at Hollins Univeristy and the University of Notre Dame.
   
   
  Brian Howe is a freelance writer and poet living in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He is a contributing writer at Pitchforkmedia.com and a contributing editor at Paste Magazine. Howe's poems have appeared in MiPo, Octopus, Fascicle, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, Eratio, Soft Targets, and Cannibal. His chapbook Guitar Smash is forthcoming from Atlanta's 3rdness press. He maintains a personal blog at http://slatherpuss.blogspot.com/ and a group mp3 blog at http://moistworks.com/. Howe is a member of the Lucifer Poetics Group.
   
   
  Aaron Belz lives in St. Louis, where he curates Readings @ The Schlafly Tap Room and teaches English at SLU. His work has been published recently in Knock, Court Green, The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel, McSweeney's, and Boston Review, and will soon appear in Painted Bride Quarterly and Unpleasant Events Schedule. For more about Aaron, please visit belz.net or myspace.com/orthodontist.
   
   
  STAIN BAR
  766 Grand Steet  
  Brooklyn, NY 11211
  (718) 387-7840
  http://www.stainbar.com  
  [Grand stop on the L TRAIN]
   
   
  Hope to see you all there!
   
  Amy King and Didi Menendez
  http://miporeadingseries.blogspot.com/ 
  http://www.mipoesias.com
   
   
   
   
   

 		
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/07d9ac2f/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 26 11:53:07 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:53:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Today's thought on this always acrid subject:

What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such naysayers
were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and seeing
if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
that, naturally.)

So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA aesthetic
is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that is.)
Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."

OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots of
people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
*pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by the
omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career."  Oh,
it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.

So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
"careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but let
that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
publication by Knopf, whatever.

Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the following:
a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.

It's a nice adolescent fantasy.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 12:22:03 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609260808v4534281es398e9cf1c70ff5ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260922030.16297@hur11.myuw.net>

see now i'm just being a little bit flippant and you're being a dick and flaming me, what's up with that?


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:

> It's more complex than that
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseeker%27s_Allowance
>
> gives a reasonable guide to the benefits provided by the UK state.
> Also note it's the Jobseeker's Allowance, which isn't a TLA. You need
> to have paid National Insurance contributions for at least 6 months to
> get an allowance (or Unemployment Benefit as it was in my day).
>
> The term "on the dole" was and is flexible.
>
> going to the house of plenty to sign on means you can get called a
> doley. Long-term unemployed are usually on Income Support.
>
> Why should we take you seriously? You are clearly uninformed on so
> many levels, the least of which stems from your inability to read
> Wikipedia.
>
> Dave should go to Texas and see the New Republic at work. I hear they
> eat children down there.
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the 
>> domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The 
>> Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex pistols 
>> and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was the 
>> same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's just a 
>> part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of 
>> interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're telling 
>> me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and see 
>> what the alternative is.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>> 
>> >> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
>> >> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
>> >
>> > I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
>> > Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and 
>> at
>> > that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think 
>> that,
>> > unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. And
>> > mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off the
>> > state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters column 
>> of
>> > the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
>> >
>> > And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to
>> > keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style 
>> to
>> > which he's accustomed.
>> >
>> >           Robin
>> >
>> >> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
>> >>
>> >> Roger
>> >>
>> >> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if
>> >>> you
>> >>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
>> >>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is
>> >>> that
>> >>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about 
>> people
>> >>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
>> >>>
>> >>> No more than that though.
>> >>>
>> >>> Care
>> >>>
>> >>> Dave on the Dole
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 12:33:04 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:33:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c401c6e189$70ea4bd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

What is the MFA aesthetic, exactly? Marvin Bell tells me that Iowa, all the 
MFA students are writing like Bob Grumman and Geof Huth.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>
> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such 
> naysayers
> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and 
> seeing
> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
> that, naturally.)
>
> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA 
> aesthetic
> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that 
> is.)
> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>
> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots 
> of
> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by the
> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career."  Oh,
> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>
> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but 
> let
> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>
> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the 
> following:
> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>
> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 12:35:14 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:35:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c701c6e189$be53a600$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Well, like Charles Bernstein and Joan Retallack, anyway.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>
> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such 
> naysayers
> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and 
> seeing
> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
> that, naturally.)
>
> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA 
> aesthetic
> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that 
> is.)
> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>
> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots 
> of
> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by the
> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career."  Oh,
> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>
> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but 
> let
> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>
> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the 
> following:
> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>
> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 12:36:51 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609260936u38502ad5qfd1c4776275f2ebd@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.


I've always had to scratch my head about this us-against-them,
rail-against-the-evil-program argument.  It seems like so much canned
bellyaching and projecting, and so many of the arguments are based on
logical fallacy.

Yes, a lot of successful poets of a certain generation have MFAs.  Is
this because there is some mysterious poetry cartel at work conspiring
to rob us of our tuition dollars and make us all sound the same? (And
yes, we are all mindless automatons who feed into this beastly machine
even though there is nothing good to be found in it because... oh I
dunno, because it is there and Jorie Graham said so?)

Or is it because a.) only people who are really serious about writing
and studying poetry would bother with an MFA in the first place, and
b.) the opportunity to study with poets whose work you love and maybe
even get some financial support for your craft for a couple of years
is something that would legitimately attract someone who is serious
about their work to begin with, and c.) People who are really serious
about their work are more likely to continue growing and producing
interesting work (as opposed to dying on the vine) when they get the
chance to meet and develop a dialogue with other equally serious
people?

In other words, does the program MAKE the serious writer who is likely
to actually finish a manuscript and send it out, or does it ATTRACT
people who are wired that way to begin with?  Or a little bit of both?
 And what is so terrible about this?

I also don't buy into this idea that everyone who has an MFA writes
like Sharon Olds or Raymond Carver.  Puuulleease.   There is more
diversity of style and approach in poetry now than there has probably
ever been at one time, and personally I am seeing a lot more interest
in experimental poetry as a result.  I think if anything you are more
likely to find writers who are off the beaten path in academia than
elsewhere.  You want wild and wooley?  Mosey on over the Fine Arts
Work Center in P'town sometime, and I show you a lot of people who are
very good and being exactly who they are.

Connections?  MFA all about connections you say? Are connections
really that valuable in poetry?  Sorry if this sounds like a dumb
question, but I have never bought into it. "Foetry" not withstanding,
I know plenty of "well connected" people who cannot find publishers
for their manuscripts, and honestly I don't think even Jorie Graham
would accept work she honestly thought was mediocre just because she
knew the author.  I have my own large network of literary friends--
but if they have any interest in my work at all it is because I am
true to myself, I wrote something that showed that, and the literary
branch of our friendship grew from there. I can also assure you that
when I write crap, they are the first to tell me.  God bless the
editor who sent back a couple of my poems with a gentle note saying
"Ummm, no."

Maybe this is one of the reasons why people who get MFAs are more
likely to publish their work-- they are more likely to have sought out
and made friends who are good and serious readers, who can call them
on their shit and/or spot what is really working, hence enabling their
work to evolve.  I am not saying that one must take workshops to find
this, but it certainly is one way to go about it, and I think writers
programs and workshops continue to thrive against all odds for exactly
this reason.

Suzanne Burns


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 12:37:58 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:37:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260922030.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <fde503480609260808v4534281es398e9cf1c70ff5ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260922030.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260937q169def3ey7fe61982110711a5@mail.gmail.com>

You were being flippant? I thought *I was being flippant.

Roger

On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> see now i'm just being a little bit flippant and you're being a dick and flaming me, what's up with that?
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>
> > It's more complex than that
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseeker%27s_Allowance
> >
> > gives a reasonable guide to the benefits provided by the UK state.
> > Also note it's the Jobseeker's Allowance, which isn't a TLA. You need
> > to have paid National Insurance contributions for at least 6 months to
> > get an allowance (or Unemployment Benefit as it was in my day).
> >
> > The term "on the dole" was and is flexible.
> >
> > going to the house of plenty to sign on means you can get called a
> > doley. Long-term unemployed are usually on Income Support.
> >
> > Why should we take you seriously? You are clearly uninformed on so
> > many levels, the least of which stems from your inability to read
> > Wikipedia.
> >
> > Dave should go to Texas and see the New Republic at work. I hear they
> > eat children down there.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >> See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the
> >> domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The
> >> Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex pistols
> >> and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was the
> >> same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's just a
> >> part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of
> >> interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're telling
> >> me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and see
> >> what the alternative is.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> >> >> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
> >> >
> >> > I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
> >> > Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, and
> >> at
> >> > that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't think
> >> that,
> >> > unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. And
> >> > mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off the
> >> > state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters column
> >> of
> >> > the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
> >> >
> >> > And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing to
> >> > keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent style
> >> to
> >> > which he's accustomed.
> >> >
> >> >           Robin
> >> >
> >> >> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
> >> >>
> >> >> Roger
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA if
> >> >>> you
> >> >>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you get
> >> >>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this is
> >> >>> that
> >> >>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about
> >> people
> >> >>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> No more than that though.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Care
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Dave on the Dole
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.badstep.net/
> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> > Suspicion breeds confidence
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 12:41:29 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:41:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>

Uh huh. I think, really, in that last email i outlined a complaint about MFA poets which was very clear and boils down really to the facts that a.) MFA = Boring and b.) MFA = Baby Eating.

now I'll let you figure out for yourselves why i'm opposed to eating babies, as tempting as the little bundles of juicy, well marbled, ready to rotisserie meat often are. but as to the boring, i can't reconcile in my head the idea of being passionately partisanship for good work without the attendent passionate hatred of bad work. since there's lots and lots of MFA poetry which is, by definition if you'll see my premise above that MFA = Boring, Boring it's just natural to hate it and the whole self-perpetuating system. I don't think that something has to pander to be popular, and that seems to be the whole point of MFA stuff. That it's important to pander to the mainstream in order to publish and get your assistant tenure track ta-ship or whatever at some tiny liberal arts college so you can wear a led zeppelin t-shirt under your blazer and bone nineteen year old co-eds or whatever it is that such people do when they aren't eating babies and sending submissions in to the New!
  Yorker.

See all that stuff? that's all hyperbole because this is a mostly ridiculous argument and the only saving grace it's going to have is that I'm funny. Even if people with MFAs don't think so.

As to the more serious idea that MFAs give a writer a chance to concentrate on writing, well, that's really the source of my trouble with MFAs. It seems like MFA programs are really good at churning out really skilled writers who don't have a damn thing to say. Which is where that PhD in the Philosophy of Scrubbing Out The Deep Fryer Vent Hood comes in. Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that. Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the rigamarole. And I won't say i don't understand the appeal, I do. I loved going to college. I loved it so much I went back after I was done the first time. But I learned very little about how to be a good writer there, and particularly not in the creative writing workshops i took.

that's less hyperbolic there.


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Graham wrote:

> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>
> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such naysayers
> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and seeing
> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
> that, naturally.)
>
> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA aesthetic
> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that is.)
> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>
> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots of
> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by the
> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career."  Oh,
> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>
> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but let
> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>
> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the following:
> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>
> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 12:44:34 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609260937q169def3ey7fe61982110711a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260944340.16297@hur11.myuw.net>


well flip you then flipper!

GODAMN THE INTERNET AND IT'S INABILITY TO COMMUNICATE VOCAL TONE AND FACIAL EXPRESSION!

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:

> You were being flippant? I thought *I was being flippant.
>
> Roger
>
> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> see now i'm just being a little bit flippant and you're being a dick and 
>> flaming me, what's up with that?
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>> 
>> > It's more complex than that
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseeker%27s_Allowance
>> >
>> > gives a reasonable guide to the benefits provided by the UK state.
>> > Also note it's the Jobseeker's Allowance, which isn't a TLA. You need
>> > to have paid National Insurance contributions for at least 6 months to
>> > get an allowance (or Unemployment Benefit as it was in my day).
>> >
>> > The term "on the dole" was and is flexible.
>> >
>> > going to the house of plenty to sign on means you can get called a
>> > doley. Long-term unemployed are usually on Income Support.
>> >
>> > Why should we take you seriously? You are clearly uninformed on so
>> > many levels, the least of which stems from your inability to read
>> > Wikipedia.
>> >
>> > Dave should go to Texas and see the New Republic at work. I hear they
>> > eat children down there.
>> >
>> > Roger
>> >
>> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> >> See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the
>> >> domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The
>> >> Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex 
>> pistols
>> >> and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was 
>> the
>> >> same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's 
>> just a
>> >> part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of
>> >> interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're 
>> telling
>> >> me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and 
>> see
>> >> what the alternative is.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
>> >> >> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
>> >> >
>> >> > I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
>> >> > Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it, 
>> and
>> >> at
>> >> > that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't 
>> think
>> >> that,
>> >> > unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way. 
>> And
>> >> > mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off 
>> the
>> >> > state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters 
>> column
>> >> of
>> >> > the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
>> >> >
>> >> > And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing 
>> to
>> >> > keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent 
>> style
>> >> to
>> >> > which he's accustomed.
>> >> >
>> >> >           Robin
>> >> >
>> >> >> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Roger
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA 
>> if
>> >> >>> you
>> >> >>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you 
>> get
>> >> >>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this 
>> is
>> >> >>> that
>> >> >>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about
>> >> people
>> >> >>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> No more than that though.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Care
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Dave on the Dole
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://www.badstep.net/
>> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
>> > Suspicion breeds confidence
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 26 12:46:48 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:46:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00c401c6e189$70ea4bd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <00ce01c6e18b$5c078be0$9fad3452@ANNY>

Did David invent the title? You know how to write David.
I am all pro MFA, PHD, anything. I support those who are studying, whatever 
the topic whatever the circumstance.

this my position,

Anny

From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:33 PM


> What is the MFA aesthetic, exactly? Marvin Bell tells me that Iowa, all 
> the MFA students are writing like Bob Grumman and Geof Huth.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:53 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>
>
>> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>>
>> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
>> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
>> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
>> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
>> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
>> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such 
>> naysayers
>> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and 
>> seeing
>> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
>> that, naturally.)
>>
>> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA 
>> aesthetic
>> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
>> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that 
>> is.)
>> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
>> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>>
>> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots 
>> of
>> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
>> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
>> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
>> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by 
>> the
>> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career." 
>> Oh,
>> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
>> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>>
>> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
>> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but 
>> let
>> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
>> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
>> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>>
>> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
>> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the 
>> following:
>> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
>> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>>
>> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 26 12:47:13 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:47:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <C13EC3C1.BA96%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/26/06 11:41 AM, "jfq at myuw.net" <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:

> this is a mostly ridiculous argument and the only saving grace it's going to
> have is that I'm funny.

Well, yes & no.  
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 12:51:28 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:51:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA.  Journals.  How we do things
Message-ID: <20060926165128.34863.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Hello list.  Happy to be here.  Know plenty of good poets with mfas.  Know plenty without.  Each person makes the different moves they need to make.  Don't know about this idea of grouping.  Check out my poems (do i fit in your group?) (you can find links to them at www.canofcornforyou2.blogspot.com.  Also, check out the journal I'm editing www.pastsimple.org)  Don't think the new yorker would have me.  I don't know.  Do you guys write with a journal in mind?  I never have.  If I write a poem, I send it out.  I send it to journals I like.  I wrote a poem the other day that surprised me.  Very different than what i'd done before and it certainly leans more traditional (what the hell does that mean)?  I'll send it, and some others that came out in the same spurt, to a different group of magazines than I'd usually send em out to.  What do I care?  I wrote it, I'm done with it.... All this is fun.  We are doing our best.

(should have been signing my name all along. sorry)

Jim Goar 
 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/731fb6b1/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 12:52:47 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:52:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] D prize and who are these folks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260944340.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <fde503480609260937q169def3ey7fe61982110711a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260944340.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <fde503480609260952m2b75b5f4qfd2baa1b90c3d897@mail.gmail.com>

with brass knobs bck2u

On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
> well flip you then flipper!
>
> GODAMN THE INTERNET AND IT'S INABILITY TO COMMUNICATE VOCAL TONE AND FACIAL EXPRESSION!
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
>
> > You were being flippant? I thought *I was being flippant.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >> see now i'm just being a little bit flippant and you're being a dick and
> >> flaming me, what's up with that?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Roger Day wrote:
> >>
> >> > It's more complex than that
> >> >
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseeker%27s_Allowance
> >> >
> >> > gives a reasonable guide to the benefits provided by the UK state.
> >> > Also note it's the Jobseeker's Allowance, which isn't a TLA. You need
> >> > to have paid National Insurance contributions for at least 6 months to
> >> > get an allowance (or Unemployment Benefit as it was in my day).
> >> >
> >> > The term "on the dole" was and is flexible.
> >> >
> >> > going to the house of plenty to sign on means you can get called a
> >> > doley. Long-term unemployed are usually on Income Support.
> >> >
> >> > Why should we take you seriously? You are clearly uninformed on so
> >> > many levels, the least of which stems from your inability to read
> >> > Wikipedia.
> >> >
> >> > Dave should go to Texas and see the New Republic at work. I hear they
> >> > eat children down there.
> >> >
> >> > Roger
> >> >
> >> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >> >> See, that's what you get for taking an american seriously as regards the
> >> >> domestic policy of foreign states. I was under the impression that "The
> >> >> Dole" that you hear about in all those documentaries about the sex
> >> pistols
> >> >> and the clash and joy division and public image limited and all that was
> >> the
> >> >> same thing as the Job Seekers Allowance. And now i'm told that that's
> >> just a
> >> >> part of The Dole which is actually a huge bureaucratic complex of
> >> >> interlocking state benefits for the ungainfully employed, and you're
> >> telling
> >> >> me that the UK isn't a socialist utopia? y'all need to go to texas and
> >> see
> >> >> what the alternative is.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> I currently share a house with someone who's been on the "dole" for 10
> >> >> >> years. The JSA is just one "benefit" you can get from the state.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I must live in a different world -- is  JSA *used as an acronym for Job
> >> >> > Seeker's Allowance?  (I had to google it when jfq first mentioned it,
> >> and
> >> >> at
> >> >> > that wasn't sure he didn't mean Junior State of America.) I didn't
> >> think
> >> >> that,
> >> >> > unlike the CSA, it was significant enough to be referred to that way.
> >> And
> >> >> > mostly a sop to people who objected to Income Support as "sponging off
> >> the
> >> >> > state".  (Boy, now I know that term can be used outside the letters
> >> column
> >> >> of
> >> >> > the Daily Telegraph.   <g>)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And look at it this way, Roger -- your taxes are helpfully contributing
> >> to
> >> >> > keeping a Phantom Rooster Press careerist writer in the magnificent
> >> style
> >> >> to
> >> >> > which he's accustomed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >           Robin
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> and Dave. Go get a job and stop sponging off my taxes.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Roger
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 9/26/06, David Bircumshaw <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>> Y'know things aint that diferent over here: you can get 6 months JSA
> >> if
> >> >> >>> you
> >> >> >>> didn't leave your job voluntarily or were sacked, in which cases you
> >> get
> >> >> >>> nothing, I suspect the real variation between the US and UK on this
> >> is
> >> >> >>> that
> >> >> >>> the governing classes over here are a little bit more tetchy about
> >> >> people
> >> >> >>> sleeping on the streets as it's a smaller country.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> No more than that though.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Care
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Dave on the Dole
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://www.badstep.net/
> >> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> >> > Suspicion breeds confidence
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.badstep.net/
> > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> > Suspicion breeds confidence
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From amparker at davidson.edu  Tue Sep 26 13:20:05 2006
From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:20:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 42
In-Reply-To: <200609261600.k8QG04oO013035@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B56201ADA85C@bobroberts.davidson.edu>

Here's an exercise I use in class, familiar I'm sure to many of you as
Mad Libs. If you'd like to tilt this whirl, or at the windmill, that
would be nifty; I'll post the original in a day or two.

Exercised, as ever, and interested in what poems do --
AMP


________    _________



December. An arctic wind, new
And ________ . ________ and polar bears
Sink into their winter ________.
Just then,
________ , in the folds of ________ snow,
The ________ of spring get set.

June. In a ________ ceremony
Filled with ________,
The man is ________ at ________.
Just then
It is midnight in the ________ ________. The ________
Reports for duty: he recognizes the ________.

December. Suddenly the ________
turns over , I ________ in a squalid
________, and watch, as expected,
Just then
All my stolen ________  drift by
Like ________  ________ .



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 14:08:47 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:08:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c6e196$d05d3070$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I have no particular problem with hating boring work. Just wondering why you 
think that boring work came in with MFA programs, and why only work created 
by MFA degree holders or MFA candidates can possibly be boring.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


> Uh huh. I think, really, in that last email i outlined a complaint about 
> MFA poets which was very clear and boils down really to the facts that a.) 
> MFA = Boring and b.) MFA = Baby Eating.
>
> now I'll let you figure out for yourselves why i'm opposed to eating 
> babies, as tempting as the little bundles of juicy, well marbled, ready to 
> rotisserie meat often are. but as to the boring, i can't reconcile in my 
> head the idea of being passionately partisanship for good work without the 
> attendent passionate hatred of bad work. since there's lots and lots of 
> MFA poetry which is, by definition if you'll see my premise above that MFA 
> = Boring, Boring it's just natural to hate it and the whole 
> self-perpetuating system. I don't think that something has to pander to be 
> popular, and that seems to be the whole point of MFA stuff. That it's 
> important to pander to the mainstream in order to publish and get your 
> assistant tenure track ta-ship or whatever at some tiny liberal arts 
> college so you can wear a led zeppelin t-shirt under your blazer and bone 
> nineteen year old co-eds or whatever it is that such people do when they 
> aren't eating babies and sending submissions in to the New!
>  Yorker.
>
> See all that stuff? that's all hyperbole because this is a mostly 
> ridiculous argument and the only saving grace it's going to have is that 
> I'm funny. Even if people with MFAs don't think so.
>
> As to the more serious idea that MFAs give a writer a chance to 
> concentrate on writing, well, that's really the source of my trouble with 
> MFAs. It seems like MFA programs are really good at churning out really 
> skilled writers who don't have a damn thing to say. Which is where that 
> PhD in the Philosophy of Scrubbing Out The Deep Fryer Vent Hood comes in. 
> Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world that 
> non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that. Hell, academia 
> is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the rigamarole. And I 
> won't say i don't understand the appeal, I do. I loved going to college. I 
> loved it so much I went back after I was done the first time. But I 
> learned very little about how to be a good writer there, and particularly 
> not in the creative writing workshops i took.
>
> that's less hyperbolic there.
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Graham wrote:
>
>> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>>
>> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
>> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
>> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
>> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
>> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
>> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such 
>> naysayers
>> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and 
>> seeing
>> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
>> that, naturally.)
>>
>> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA 
>> aesthetic
>> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
>> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that 
>> is.)
>> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
>> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>>
>> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots 
>> of
>> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
>> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
>> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
>> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by 
>> the
>> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career." 
>> Oh,
>> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
>> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>>
>> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
>> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but 
>> let
>> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
>> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
>> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>>
>> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
>> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the 
>> following:
>> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
>> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>>
>> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 14:12:17 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:12:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 42
References: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B56201ADA85C@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
Message-ID: <002001c6e197$4d5d9dd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I've done that. For some reason, it works particularly well with poems by 
Gerald Stern. Here's one I've used.

I guide my darling under the willow tree

to ......................





A branch weeps, so does she, a twig breaks off

like .....................





We are helpless together, we spend the night

..........................





And study the moon together, watching it ......

..........................



Whoever lies down first, that one will hear

........................



......... Whoever does not leave,

whoever......, whoever...., that one will see



...........................

.................. Whoever sits up



and ........ - whoever is alone -

that one will ..................



........................

........................



if that is his way, and ....  if that is his way,

and .....................



..........................

.........................



.........................

..........................









----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Parker, Alan Michael" <amparker at davidson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 42


> Here's an exercise I use in class, familiar I'm sure to many of you as
> Mad Libs. If you'd like to tilt this whirl, or at the windmill, that
> would be nifty; I'll post the original in a day or two.
>
> Exercised, as ever, and interested in what poems do --
> AMP
>
>
> ________    _________
>
>
>
> December. An arctic wind, new
> And ________ . ________ and polar bears
> Sink into their winter ________.
> Just then,
> ________ , in the folds of ________ snow,
> The ________ of spring get set.
>
> June. In a ________ ceremony
> Filled with ________,
> The man is ________ at ________.
> Just then
> It is midnight in the ________ ________. The ________
> Reports for duty: he recognizes the ________.
>
> December. Suddenly the ________
> turns over , I ________ in a squalid
> ________, and watch, as expected,
> Just then
> All my stolen ________  drift by
> Like ________  ________ .
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 14:13:14 2006
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:13:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <40c.71a3273.324ac7ba@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:09:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

Just  wondering why you 
think that boring work came in with MFA programs, and  why only work created 
by MFA degree holders or MFA candidates can possibly  be boring.



That's true, I  bore everyone....including myself sometimes....and I  don't 
have a degree of any sort.
 
Hey...doesn't that make me some sort of idiot-savant...or at least an  
honorary MFA?
 
Lo
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/6c132881/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 26 14:28:30 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:28:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roman Erotic Elegy by Jon Corelis
Message-ID: <012301c6e199$910a3910$9fad3452@ANNY>

This is to announce that my book Roman Erotic Elegy:  Selections from
Tibullus, Propertius, Ovid, and Sulpicia, translated, with an
Introduction, Notes, and Glossary by Jon Corelis (Salzburg Studies in
English Literature Poetic Drama & Poetic Theory 128), which was
published in 1995 by the University of Salzburg Press, is now
available on line at:

       www.geocities.com/romanelegy

This is an anthology of annotated verse translations
intended for the general reader and student.  Several people have told
me it's been a useful source of material for courses in Classics in
translation and humanities.

The web site is noncommercial:  all sections of it are
available to everyone without charge or registration.  (Since it's a
yahoo/geocities free web site, I'm obliged to accept a yahoo ad banner
on the right side, but it's non-intrusive and easy to close by
clicking on the  >>  at the banner's top left.)

Comments will be welcome.  There's a contact email address on the web
site Preface page, but people reading this message can also contact me
at my poetryetc email address of jonc at stanfordalumni.org.

Thank you.

-- 
===================================

   Jon Corelis     www.geocities.com/jgcorelis/

===================================

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/f415e54e/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 14:52:23 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:52:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609261152pc80b5cfh55ce21eb0fd177ce@mail.gmail.com>

<I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>

Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
false class division which does not exists.

Come on.

What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
"live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?

School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
me plenty of fodder for writing.

Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
rude awakening.

Suzanne


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 15:29:22 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:29:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <40c.71a3273.324ac7ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c6e1a2$12445ee0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Lo -- you have all the qualifications for an MFA.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: LauraHeidy at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


  In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:09:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes:
    Just wondering why you 
    think that boring work came in with MFA programs, and why only work created 
    by MFA degree holders or MFA candidates can possibly be boring.

  That's true, I  bore everyone....including myself sometimes....and I don't have a degree of any sort.

  Hey...doesn't that make me some sort of idiot-savant...or at least an honorary MFA?

  Lo


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/95203666/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 15:31:44 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:31:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roman Erotic Elegy by Jon Corelis
References: <012301c6e199$910a3910$9fad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <006a01c6e1a2$66671120$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I'll be ordering it. Anny, erotica and elegies...who could resist?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:28 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Roman Erotic Elegy by Jon Corelis


  This is to announce that my book Roman Erotic Elegy:  Selections from
  Tibullus, Propertius, Ovid, and Sulpicia, translated, with an
  Introduction, Notes, and Glossary by Jon Corelis (Salzburg Studies in
  English Literature Poetic Drama & Poetic Theory 128), which was
  published in 1995 by the University of Salzburg Press, is now
  available on line at:

         www.geocities.com/romanelegy

  This is an anthology of annotated verse translations
  intended for the general reader and student.  Several people have told
  me it's been a useful source of material for courses in Classics in
  translation and humanities.

  The web site is noncommercial:  all sections of it are
  available to everyone without charge or registration.  (Since it's a
  yahoo/geocities free web site, I'm obliged to accept a yahoo ad banner
  on the right side, but it's non-intrusive and easy to close by
  clicking on the  >>  at the banner's top left.)

  Comments will be welcome.  There's a contact email address on the web
  site Preface page, but people reading this message can also contact me
  at my poetryetc email address of jonc at stanfordalumni.org.

  Thank you.

  -- 
  ===================================

     Jon Corelis     www.geocities.com/jgcorelis/

  ===================================

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/b01527ee/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 15:33:27 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:33:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu><Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
	<aa458fec0609261152pc80b5cfh55ce21eb0fd177ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007a01c6e1a2$a44c6760$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

What Suzanne said. And eloquently.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


> <I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>
>
> Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
> false class division which does not exists.
>
> Come on.
>
> What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
> "live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
> rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
> are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>
> School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
> almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
> had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
> fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
> having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
> pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
> bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
> it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>
> Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
> world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
> mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
> rude awakening.
>
> Suzanne
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 15:34:43 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:34:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bound copies
References: <012301c6e199$910a3910$9fad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00bf01c6e1a2$d1480f30$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

You can tell that I don't enter competitions very often. Submit three bound copies...what the fuck is a bound copy?
  ----- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/9fa26bb5/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Sep 26 15:37:41 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:37:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roman Erotic Elegy by Jon Corelis
References: <012301c6e199$910a3910$9fad3452@ANNY>
	<006a01c6e1a2$66671120$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <015901c6e1a3$3b250ac0$9fad3452@ANNY>

It is free online, click on the central link!
  From: TheOldMole 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:31 PM


  I'll be ordering it. Anny, erotica and elegies...who could resist?

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:28 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Roman Erotic Elegy by Jon Corelis


    This is to announce that my book Roman Erotic Elegy:  Selections from
    Tibullus, Propertius, Ovid, and Sulpicia, translated, with an
    Introduction, Notes, and Glossary by Jon Corelis (Salzburg Studies in
    English Literature Poetic Drama & Poetic Theory 128), which was
    published in 1995 by the University of Salzburg Press, is now
    available on line at:

           www.geocities.com/romanelegy

    This is an anthology of annotated verse translations
    intended for the general reader and student.  Several people have told
    me it's been a useful source of material for courses in Classics in
    translation and humanities.

    The web site is noncommercial:  all sections of it are
    available to everyone without charge or registration.  (Since it's a
    yahoo/geocities free web site, I'm obliged to accept a yahoo ad banner
    on the right side, but it's non-intrusive and easy to close by
    clicking on the  >>  at the banner's top left.)

    Comments will be welcome.  There's a contact email address on the web
    site Preface page, but people reading this message can also contact me
    at my poetryetc email address of jonc at stanfordalumni.org.

    Thank you.

    -- 
    ===================================

       Jon Corelis     www.geocities.com/jgcorelis/

    ===================================

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/f50cb9a5/attachment.html>

From LauraHeidy at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 15:49:32 2006
From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:49:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <42f.5ae95f00.324ade4c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 3:31:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

Lo -- you have all the qualifications for an  MFA.



Gosh, thank you.  (I think)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/a0628059/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 15:57:57 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:57:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <225.243217e.324ae045@aol.com>

 
An honorary MFA...now there's one to hang on the wall. Which wall I'll  leave 
up to you.
 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 3:31:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

Lo -- you have all the qualifications for an MFA.

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _LauraHeidy at aol.com_ (mailto:LauraHeidy at aol.com)  
To: _new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu)   
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:13  PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes)  F(arting) A(round)



In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:09:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
_tad at opus40.org_ (mailto:tad at opus40.org)   writes:

Just  wondering why you 
think that boring work came in with MFA programs,  and why only work created 
by MFA degree holders or MFA candidates can  possibly be boring.



That's true, I  bore everyone....including myself sometimes....and  I don't 
have a degree of any sort.
 
Hey...doesn't that make me some sort of idiot-savant...or at least an  
honorary MFA?
 
Lo
 
____________________________________




 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/d66166d3/attachment.html>

From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 16:22:57 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:22:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>

It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, traveling
to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone
messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing with
paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing the
millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?

Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.

Jeff Newberry

On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>
>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the
> rigamarole.
> --







"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/2f8f8e6b/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 16:55:16 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:55:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <4c2.921a53a.324aedb4@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 3:34:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

What  Suzanne said. And eloquently.



I add my nod, too. I don't have an MFA...but it's
hard for me to see the great harm it's causing.
This issue has its recurrent variations 'What good 
is an MFA?' or 'Good Writing can't be taught and there's
no money/job waiting for most who graduate with this terminal
degree, so people/kids are being duped ' or 'MFA programs 
are producing homogeneous writing (McPoems).' 
On that latter complaint, it seems today, maybe not
10 years ago, but today, you could surely find a MFA program 
with like-minded mentors no matter what your predilection: 
Mainline Free Verse, Retro Formalist, Self-Proclaimed Avant 
Gardist and now, even, so called Post-Avants 

The other defense I think rings with some validity,
is: Why is producing another couple hundred thousand
MBA's (my terminal degree) or JDs or Masters in Criminal

Justice, etc., each year any more useful to society 
as a whole? 
 
I was reading an Alice Fulton essay last night, called
'A Poetry of Incovenient Knowledge,' and she really puts
these so-called 'issues of poetry' in stark perspective,
starting with the tired Free v. Formal 100 Years War.
The gist of what she's saying is let's be poets who 
engage significant social issues. For example, (my  example,
not hers) we have something like 2 Million people
incarcerated in the U.S.; now that's a social problem
worth hand-wringing over. Let's worry ourselves
with how many people are doing a 2-3 year drug stretch 
and not how many people are doing time in MFA programs.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/ba3dde66/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 16:56:33 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:56:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bound copies
Message-ID: <c37.3bf2c80.324aee01@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 3:35:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

You can tell that I don't enter competitions very often.  Submit three bound 
copies...what the fuck is a bound  copy?


A big black binder clip...would be my  answer.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/8f79c603/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 26 17:28:39 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:28:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <C13F05B7.BACD%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/26/06 11:41 AM, "jfq at myuw.net" <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:

> I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world that non-poets live in
--------------

Well, good.  I think I've got that one covered.  My dog doesn't write poetry
much, and what he does write is pretty boring.  (Just doggerel.)  But we do
live in the same world.  Yup yup.  You don't believe me & I could show you
the puke stains on the carpet.  He puts 'em there, I cleans 'em up:  same
world, I assure you.

Reminds me of the time I overheard several students exiting the building
where they had just taken a final exam.

     "I'm done with English forever!  one shouted.

Cool, I thought, but wondered:  what languge are you planning to use?


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 17:48:15 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:48:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <C13F05B7.BACD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net>
	<C13F05B7.BACD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609261448j3e41baddme25141b44720c944@mail.gmail.com>

Brilliant!

I should use this as a signature, David.

Well said.

Jeff Newberry


On 9/26/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 9/26/06 11:41 AM, "jfq at myuw.net" <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
> > I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world that non-poets live in
> --------------
>
> Well, good.  I think I've got that one covered.  My dog doesn't write
> poetry
> much, and what he does write is pretty boring.  (Just doggerel.)  But we
> do
> live in the same world.  Yup yup.  You don't believe me & I could show you
> the puke stains on the carpet.  He puts 'em there, I cleans 'em up:  same
> world, I assure you.
>
> Reminds me of the time I overheard several students exiting the building
> where they had just taken a final exam.
>
>     "I'm done with English forever!  one shouted.
>
> Cool, I thought, but wondered:  what languge are you planning to use?
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/f9cf7a00/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Sep 26 17:56:27 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:56:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c6e18b$5c078be0$9fad3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <C13F0C3B.BADA%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/26/06 11:46 AM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> Did David invent the title?

You mean Mopes Farting Around?  That's my Native American name, which came
to me in my power vision. . . . I'm not aware of lifting it from anyone, no,
but if caught, I'll plead Bob Dylan.

I think we should work on new acronyms.  I used to say MFA = Mighty Fat Ass.
But that was lifted from somebody long forgotten.

So let's get going on other options--

   Mere Filagree Attached?
   More Fine Arhythmia?
   Mostly For Assholes?
   Might Feel Alienated?
   Miniscule Friends Arrive?
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 18:15:35 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:15:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
References: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c6e1b9$4a715ae0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Not to mention fixing the plumbing, going to town planning board meetings, driving up to a college 125 miles away at 2 in the morning because your daughter's heart has gotten broken, taking your grandson to the emergency room, giving whatever consolation you can to a student whose father and brother were in separate offices in the World Trade Center? What are the real life things that non-MFA's do that we're missing out on?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:22 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole


  It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, traveling to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing with paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing the millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole? 

  Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
   
  Jeff Newberry
   
  On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote: 

     Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the rigamarole.
    -- 







    "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                       --Johnny Cash 

    http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/1ce570f1/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Tue Sep 26 18:21:28 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:21:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Phillips
References: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012101c6e1ba$1ca1f2e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

New York, September 26-Poet Carl Phillips has been selected as the recipient of the 2006 Academy Fellowship, given in memory of James Ingram Merrill. The Fellowship is awarded once a year to a poet for distinguished poetic achievement at mid-career and provides a stipend of $25,000. Fellows are elected by the Academy's Board of Chancellors, a body of fifteen eminent poets.

Of Carl Phillips's work, Academy Chancellor Ellen Bryant Voigt wrote:

  It might be said that all memorable poems explore or enact what it means to be human. Carl Phillips's work does both, looking steadily at his abiding subject-the complexities of intimacy and isolation-in sentences majestic and muscular, in lines taut and musical, and in language vivid and exact. These are indelible poems, and the voice in them entirely his own.
For almost a decade, Phillips taught Greek and Latin to high school students in and around Boston. Classical prose writers such as Thucydides, Cicero, and Tacitus, as well as the Greek tragedians were early influences on his work. Phillips writes that they taught him "a great deal about compression when conveying psychological and emotional crisis." Phillips's work reflects a faith in the way a sentence can move over lines to lead readers to charged moments of intense insight and amazing beauty. 

Phillips admits that he "came very late to modern/contemporary poetry," and it was when he was in his thirties that he began to publish his work. Since then, his collections have been recognized for their emotional engagement with the timeless subjects of desire, loss, and myth, yet also their very contemporary sense of how we speak in the world.

Carl Phillips was born in 1959. He is the author of numerous books of poetry, most recently Quiver of Arrows: Selected Poems 1986-2006 (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2007) and Riding Westward (2006). His collection The Rest of Love (2004) won the Theodore Roethke Memorial Foundation Poetry Prize and the Thom Gunn Award for Gay Male Poetry, and was a finalist for the National Book Award.

His other books include: Rock Harbor (2002); The Tether (2001), winner of the Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award; Pastoral (2000), winner of the Lambda Literary Award; From the Devotions (1998), finalist for the National Book Award; Cort?ge (1995), finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award; and In the Blood (1992), winner of the Samuel French Morse Poetry Prize. Phillips is the author of a book of prose, Coin of the Realm: Essays on the Art and Life of Poetry (2004). He translated Sophocles's Philoctetes (Oxford University Press, 2003).

Phillips's honors include an Award in Literature from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, the Pushcart Prize, induction into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation and the Library of Congress. He received a B.A. in Classics from Harvard University and an M.A.T. in Classical Humanities from U. Mass/Amherst. He later went on to receive an M.A. in creative writing from Boston University. Phillips is a professor of English and of African and Afro-American studies at Washington University in St. Louis, where he also teaches in the creative writing program.



Leda, After the Swan by Carl Phillips 


Perhaps,
in the exaggerated grace
of his weight
settling,

the wings
raised, held in
strike-or-embrace
position,

I recognized
something more
than swan, I can't say.

There was just
this barely defined
shoulder, whose feathers
came away in my hands,

and the bit of world
left beyond it, coming down

to the heat-crippled field,

ravens the precise color of
sorrow in good light, neither
black nor blue, like fallen
stitches upon it,

and the hour forever,
it seemed, half-stepping
its way elsewhere--

then
everything, I
remember, began
happening more quickly.



Passing by Carl Phillips 


When the Famous Black Poet speaks,
I understand

that his is the same unnervingly slow 
rambling method of getting from A to B
that I hated in my father,
my father who always told me
don't shuffle.

The Famous Black Poet is
speaking of the dark river in the mind
that runs thick with the heroes of color,
Jackie R., Bessie, Billie, Mr. Paige, anyone
who knew how to sing or when to run. 
I think of my grandmother, said
to have dropped dead from the evil eye,
of my lesbian aunt who saw cancer and
a generally difficult future headed her way
in the still water
of her brother's commode.
I think of voodoo in the bottoms of soup-cans,
and I want to tell the poet that the blues
is not my name, that Alabama
is something I cannot use
in my business.

He is so like my father,
I don't ask the Famous Black Poet,
afterwards,
to remove his shoes,
knowing the inexplicable black
and pink I will find there, a cut 
gone wrong in five places.
I don't ask him to remove
his pants, since that too
is known, what has never known
a blade, all the spaces between,
where we differ .  .  .

I have spent years tugging
between my legs,
and proved nothing, really.
I wake to the sheets I kicked aside,
and examine where they've failed to mend
their own creases, resembling some silken
obstruction, something pulled
from my father's chest, a bad heart,
a lung,

the lung of the Famous Black Poet
saying nothing I want to understand. 






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/b289dee9/attachment.html>

From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Sep 26 18:22:26 2006
From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (Gerald Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:22:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 42
References: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B56201ADA85C@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
Message-ID: <004101c6e1ba$42afc520$e57ca918@yourae066c3a9b>


> Here's an exercise I use in class, familiar I'm sure to many of you as
> Mad Libs. If you'd like to tilt this whirl, or at the windmill, that
> would be nifty; I'll post the original in a day or two.
> 
> Exercised, as ever, and interested in what poems do --
> AMP
> 
> 
> Cold Delight
> 
> 
> 
> December. An arctic wind, new
> And riots . surfaces and polar bears
> Sink into their winter narrowhouses.
> Just then,
> an investigation , in the folds of  terrible snow,
> The summer of spring get set.
> 
> June. In a shiftless ceremony
> Filled with tumult,
> The man is furlined at consolation.
> Just then
> It is midnight in the dipped pulpit. The Blue Cap
> Reports for duty: he recognizes the wonders.
> 
> December. Suddenly the land
> turns over , I load up in a squalid
> prayer, and watch, as expected,
> Just then
> All my stolen wrongs drift by
> Like grace rigamaroled.

Gerald Schwartz
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 26 19:08:50 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:08:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Phillips
References: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>
	<012101c6e1ba$1ca1f2e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <00ad01c6e1c0$be675010$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Sorry, Mr Mole, I think this is a load of wank, pardon my French.

I've just been looking at his attempted poem: it is dire, it's like a tribute to flat writing. If you'd like a view on the universe from Lear's Castle take this link - ok?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/bbc7/aod.shtml?bbc7/davepodmore_cricketfix


Carl Philips and poetry, they are not even associated terms.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TheOldMole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:21 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Phillips


  New York, September 26-Poet Carl Phillips has been selected as the recipient of the 2006 Academy Fellowship, given in memory of James Ingram Merrill. The Fellowship is awarded once a year to a poet for distinguished poetic achievement at mid-career and provides a stipend of $25,000. Fellows are elected by the Academy's Board of Chancellors, a body of fifteen eminent poets.

  Of Carl Phillips's work, Academy Chancellor Ellen Bryant Voigt wrote:

    It might be said that all memorable poems explore or enact what it means to be human. Carl Phillips's work does both, looking steadily at his abiding subject-the complexities of intimacy and isolation-in sentences majestic and muscular, in lines taut and musical, and in language vivid and exact. These are indelible poems, and the voice in them entirely his own.
  For almost a decade, Phillips taught Greek and Latin to high school students in and around Boston. Classical prose writers such as Thucydides, Cicero, and Tacitus, as well as the Greek tragedians were early influences on his work. Phillips writes that they taught him "a great deal about compression when conveying psychological and emotional crisis." Phillips's work reflects a faith in the way a sentence can move over lines to lead readers to charged moments of intense insight and amazing beauty. 

  Phillips admits that he "came very late to modern/contemporary poetry," and it was when he was in his thirties that he began to publish his work. Since then, his collections have been recognized for their emotional engagement with the timeless subjects of desire, loss, and myth, yet also their very contemporary sense of how we speak in the world.

  Carl Phillips was born in 1959. He is the author of numerous books of poetry, most recently Quiver of Arrows: Selected Poems 1986-2006 (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2007) and Riding Westward (2006). His collection The Rest of Love (2004) won the Theodore Roethke Memorial Foundation Poetry Prize and the Thom Gunn Award for Gay Male Poetry, and was a finalist for the National Book Award.

  His other books include: Rock Harbor (2002); The Tether (2001), winner of the Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award; Pastoral (2000), winner of the Lambda Literary Award; From the Devotions (1998), finalist for the National Book Award; Cort?ge (1995), finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award; and In the Blood (1992), winner of the Samuel French Morse Poetry Prize. Phillips is the author of a book of prose, Coin of the Realm: Essays on the Art and Life of Poetry (2004). He translated Sophocles's Philoctetes (Oxford University Press, 2003).

  Phillips's honors include an Award in Literature from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, the Pushcart Prize, induction into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation and the Library of Congress. He received a B.A. in Classics from Harvard University and an M.A.T. in Classical Humanities from U. Mass/Amherst. He later went on to receive an M.A. in creative writing from Boston University. Phillips is a professor of English and of African and Afro-American studies at Washington University in St. Louis, where he also teaches in the creative writing program.



  Leda, After the Swan by Carl Phillips 


Perhaps,
in the exaggerated grace
of his weight
settling,

the wings
raised, held in
strike-or-embrace
position,

I recognized
something more
than swan, I can't say.

There was just
this barely defined
shoulder, whose feathers
came away in my hands,

and the bit of world
left beyond it, coming down

to the heat-crippled field,

ravens the precise color of
sorrow in good light, neither
black nor blue, like fallen
stitches upon it,

and the hour forever,
it seemed, half-stepping
its way elsewhere--

then
everything, I
remember, began
happening more quickly.



  Passing by Carl Phillips 


When the Famous Black Poet speaks,
I understand

that his is the same unnervingly slow 
rambling method of getting from A to B
that I hated in my father,
my father who always told me
don't shuffle.

The Famous Black Poet is
speaking of the dark river in the mind
that runs thick with the heroes of color,
Jackie R., Bessie, Billie, Mr. Paige, anyone
who knew how to sing or when to run. 
I think of my grandmother, said
to have dropped dead from the evil eye,
of my lesbian aunt who saw cancer and
a generally difficult future headed her way
in the still water
of her brother's commode.
I think of voodoo in the bottoms of soup-cans,
and I want to tell the poet that the blues
is not my name, that Alabama
is something I cannot use
in my business.

He is so like my father,
I don't ask the Famous Black Poet,
afterwards,
to remove his shoes,
knowing the inexplicable black
and pink I will find there, a cut 
gone wrong in five places.
I don't ask him to remove
his pants, since that too
is known, what has never known
a blade, all the spaces between,
where we differ .  .  .

I have spent years tugging
between my legs,
and proved nothing, really.
I wake to the sheets I kicked aside,
and examine where they've failed to mend
their own creases, resembling some silken
obstruction, something pulled
from my father's chest, a bad heart,
a lung,

the lung of the Famous Black Poet
saying nothing I want to understand. 









------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/bc106a13/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 19:58:05 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:58:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <bd.73a3a600.324b188d@aol.com>

My own definition of MFA consists of some words I heard Richard Pryor  use.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/10e6b101/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 21:27:18 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c6e196$d05d3070$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261827180.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

Oh I don't think that, I'm sure there are a lot of people without MFA's who are more than capable of being boring. I should clarify that what I meant in my previous post by "MFA = Boring" should not be interpretted to mean "Boring = MFA" as well. Snarkiness is not commutative.


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, TheOldMole wrote:

> I have no particular problem with hating boring work. Just wondering why you 
> think that boring work came in with MFA programs, and why only work created by 
> MFA degree holders or MFA candidates can possibly be boring.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>
>
>> Uh huh. I think, really, in that last email i outlined a complaint about MFA 
>> poets which was very clear and boils down really to the facts that a.) MFA = 
>> Boring and b.) MFA = Baby Eating.
>> 
>> now I'll let you figure out for yourselves why i'm opposed to eating babies, 
>> as tempting as the little bundles of juicy, well marbled, ready to 
>> rotisserie meat often are. but as to the boring, i can't reconcile in my 
>> head the idea of being passionately partisanship for good work without the 
>> attendent passionate hatred of bad work. since there's lots and lots of MFA 
>> poetry which is, by definition if you'll see my premise above that MFA = 
>> Boring, Boring it's just natural to hate it and the whole self-perpetuating 
>> system. I don't think that something has to pander to be popular, and that 
>> seems to be the whole point of MFA stuff. That it's important to pander to 
>> the mainstream in order to publish and get your assistant tenure track 
>> ta-ship or whatever at some tiny liberal arts college so you can wear a led 
>> zeppelin t-shirt under your blazer and bone nineteen year old co-eds or 
>> whatever it is that such people do when they aren't eating babies and 
>> sending submissions in to the New!
>>  Yorker.
>> 
>> See all that stuff? that's all hyperbole because this is a mostly ridiculous 
>> argument and the only saving grace it's going to have is that I'm funny. 
>> Even if people with MFAs don't think so.
>> 
>> As to the more serious idea that MFAs give a writer a chance to concentrate 
>> on writing, well, that's really the source of my trouble with MFAs. It seems 
>> like MFA programs are really good at churning out really skilled writers who 
>> don't have a damn thing to say. Which is where that PhD in the Philosophy of 
>> Scrubbing Out The Deep Fryer Vent Hood comes in. Among other things. I view 
>> it as a poet's duty to live in the world that non-poets live in and MFAs are 
>> the opposite of doing that. Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering 
>> oneself away from the rigamarole. And I won't say i don't understand the 
>> appeal, I do. I loved going to college. I loved it so much I went back after 
>> I was done the first time. But I learned very little about how to be a good 
>> writer there, and particularly not in the creative writing workshops i took.
>> 
>> that's less hyperbolic there.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Graham wrote:
>> 
>>> Today's thought on this always acrid subject:
>>> 
>>> What are poets who complain about the whole constellation of things that
>>> parade under the label "MFA" actually complaining about?  Are they saying
>>> that they're being prevented from writing what they want to write?
>>> Obviously not.  Are they upset because there are no experimental journals
>>> that offer alternative views and aesthetics?  Well, if so, they're wrong.
>>> The web is rich with non-MFA-originated poetry.  And even if such 
>>> naysayers
>>> were right, no one's actually preventing them from giving it a go and 
>>> seeing
>>> if their kind of poetry attracts readership, etc.  (Many are doing just
>>> that, naturally.)
>>> 
>>> So what such folks seem to be most exercised about is that the MFA 
>>> aesthetic
>>> is *popular*. (Oh, let's just assume for a moment that there is such a
>>> thing, and--what's harder--that we could conceivably agree on what that 
>>> is.)
>>> Major journals, writers' conferences, and other institutional outlets for
>>> poetry are dominated by "MFA poetry."
>>> 
>>> OK.  But, hmmm.. . . that popularity thing.  It appears to mean that lots 
>>> of
>>> people gravitate toward it, for what else is a mainstream but the place
>>> where most of the fish hang out?  Or--horrible thought--said fish may
>>> *pretend* to swim in the mainstream, for reasons of naked careerism.
>>> Or--even more horrible--may be brainwashed out of their right minds by the
>>> omnipresence of mediocre role models!  All to enjoy the MFA "career." Oh,
>>> it gets worse & worse. . . .  In any case, the existence of the whole
>>> MFA-track is an institutionalization of bad poetry, is the argument.
>>> 
>>> So what we're actually talking about here is not aesthetics so much as
>>> "careers"--a laughable enough notion in the realm of poetry, anyway, but 
>>> let
>>> that pass.  And the MFA-bashers are, in fact, irked that they're being
>>> excluded from the goodies--jobs, royalties, attention by Helen Vendler,
>>> publication by Knopf, whatever.
>>> 
>>> Yet if NFA poets wrote the sort of thing that was, er, popular, they
>>> wouldn't be so excluded.  So such complaints may boil down to the 
>>> following:
>>> a yearning to *be* popular without having to write the sort of thing that
>>> many "mainstream" readers actually enjoy reading.
>>> 
>>> It's a nice adolescent fantasy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ====================================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>> ====================================================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 21:42:16 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609261152pc80b5cfh55ce21eb0fd177ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261842160.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

If you're really going to get all bunched up and flumoxxed because I'm challenging the validity of your life choices, you should really get the context right. The assertion has been made that "it's good for your art to be able to be cloistered from real world concerns for a couple of years to focus on craft." my statement about living in the world was a direct response to that. To make it more clear, although I really don't see why it's necessary as this is perfectly simple, I disagree that one can improve as an artist of any kind by seeking out that kind of remove and I believe that craft only improves dramatically and one only achieves true originality when are has to fight for time in the ordinary milieu of life vs. what happens when seeking out a special protected hot house environment to "develop and grow as a writer" or some such nonsense. The difference is the robust and miraculous 
appearance of an orchid in the wild vs a carefully pampered and cultivated one in a greenhouse. Now, seriously, you can't have it both ways, either the MFA is a special environment or it isn't. I agree that it is, what's at issue is whether that is beneficial. I say it isn't. Now, if you want to respond to that, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say, but try not to be so insulted. I don't care what you do for a living or where you went to school. Whether or not you've wasted your time is no skin off my nose at all. All I know is, I can pick up a copy of a certain kind of magazine called a literary journal, read a certain kind of poem, feel a certain kind of boredom, and can turn to the contributor bio and have a "thought so" moment when i see "poet so and so has an MFA from Iowa."


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns wrote:

> <I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>
>
> Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
> false class division which does not exists.
>
> Come on.
>
> What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
> "live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
> rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
> are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>
> School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
> almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
> had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
> fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
> having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
> pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
> bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
> it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>
> Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
> world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
> mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
> rude awakening.
>
> Suzanne
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 21:45:29 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <007a01c6e1a2$a44c6760$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261845290.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>


What I said in response to Suzanne and elegantly.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, TheOldMole wrote:

> What Suzanne said. And eloquently.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>
>
>> <I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
>> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>
>> 
>> Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
>> false class division which does not exists.
>> 
>> Come on.
>> 
>> What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
>> "live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
>> rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
>> are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>> 
>> School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
>> almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
>> had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
>> fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
>> having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
>> pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
>> bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
>> it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
>> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
>> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
>> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
>> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>> 
>> Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
>> world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
>> mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
>> rude awakening.
>> 
>> Suzanne
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 21:50:26 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261850260.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling to off campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and "Figuring out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your life as an academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could say in defense of my position.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
> faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
> meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, traveling
> to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone
> messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing with
> paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing the
> millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
>
> Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the
>> rigamarole.
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>> 
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 21:57:26 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <C13F05B7.BACD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261857261.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>


there are worlds and then there are worlds and as far as this goes, i'm of the opinion that as far as the sorts of worlds i'm talking about, you really don't live in the same world as your dog.

not that it isn't always fun to be dismissive through the time-honored technique willfully misconstruing something through an overly literal application of semantics. It's an informal fallacy too, but I forget the name of it off hand. Which is to say, these sorts of statements say more about the person making them than they do about the people they're purportedly about.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, David Graham wrote:

>
>
>
> On 9/26/06 11:41 AM, "jfq at myuw.net" <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>> I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world that non-poets live in
> --------------
>
> Well, good.  I think I've got that one covered.  My dog doesn't write poetry
> much, and what he does write is pretty boring.  (Just doggerel.)  But we do
> live in the same world.  Yup yup.  You don't believe me & I could show you
> the puke stains on the carpet.  He puts 'em there, I cleans 'em up:  same
> world, I assure you.
>
> Reminds me of the time I overheard several students exiting the building
> where they had just taken a final exam.
>
>     "I'm done with English forever!  one shouted.
>
> Cool, I thought, but wondered:  what languge are you planning to use?
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 22:03:18 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:03:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <010e01c6e1b9$4a715ae0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261903180.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

  What are the real life things that non-MFA's do that we're missing out on?

I dunno, having a full time job? Just off hand that's what occurs to me. Or how about not being able to drive 125 miles at two in the morning to mollycoddle your spoiled daughter because you'll lose that job if you don't show up in the morning. Don't you people see how ridiculous the stuff you're bringing up is? That you're only reinforcing my point? The first rule of holes is if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. I learned that in college.

I'm not even sure why i'm arguing with this. If you're inclined to accept this "college professors lives are hard too" nonsense, there's probably nothing i can say to convince you otherwise.


>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Jeff Newberry
>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views
>  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:22 PM
>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>
>
>  It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, traveling to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing with paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing the millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
>
>  Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>
>  Jeff Newberry
>
>  On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>     Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the rigamarole.
>    --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                       --Johnny Cash
>
>    http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 22:12:18 2006
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:12:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261850260.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
References: <731bb17a0609261322j7b03de42l74ed8fddef309f82@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261850260.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0609261912x615f390byfef394c8286cf21c@mail.gmail.com>

As I write next to non sequiters on student essays:  "Huh?"

Jeff Newberry


On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
> Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling to off
> campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and "Figuring
> out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your life as an
> academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could say in
> defense of my position.
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
> > It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
> > faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
> > meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses,
> traveling
> > to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone
> > messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing
> with
> > paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing
> the
> > millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
> >
> > Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the
> >> rigamarole.
> >> --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
> >>                                                    --Johnny Cash
> >>
> >> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
"Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
                                                   --Johnny Cash

http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060926/81fdf3b8/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 22:24:10 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0609261912x615f390byfef394c8286cf21c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261924100.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

It'll be a nice day tomorrow if it doesn't fucking rain.

but whatever, professors are as professors do. this whole conversation is in imminent danger of devolving into a "my dad can kick your dad's ass" kind of argument.

i just thought it was funny that i was trying to make an argument along the lines of "one should have broader interests than the sort of craft specialization that happens in MFA programs" and that "being in a writing/literature hot house isn't a good thing." and people took that as a challenge to living an academic life all together. and then start giving evidence for a stronger argument than the one i was making, namely, that professors don't do anything ever. which I never would say.

just to be clear.
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> As I write next to non sequiters on student essays:  "Huh?"
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling to off
>> campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and "Figuring
>> out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your life as an
>> academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could say in
>> defense of my position.
>> 
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>> 
>> > It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
>> > faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
>> > meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses,
>> traveling
>> > to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone
>> > messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing
>> with
>> > paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing
>> the
>> > millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
>> >
>> > Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>> >
>> > Jeff Newberry
>> >
>> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the
>> >> rigamarole.
>> >> --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>> >>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>> >>
>> >> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>                                                  --Johnny Cash
>
> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>




From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Tue Sep 26 22:52:40 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:52:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261924100.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261924100.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <80D812E1-C6BD-488B-83E6-42F5245AACA0@uaf.edu>

> d that "being in a writing/literature hot house isn't a good thing."

It would be interesting to look at how many great poets of the past  
250 years were not in some form of a "writing/literature hot house."  
I think the modernist salons would qualify, don't you?

>> As I write next to non sequiters on student essays:  "Huh?"
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>>
>> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>> Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling  
>>> to off
>>> campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and  
>>> "Figuring
>>> out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your  
>>> life as an
>>> academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could  
>>> say in
>>> defense of my position.
>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>>> > It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration,  
>>> going to
>>> > faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to  
>>> accreditation
>>> > meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses,
>>> traveling
>>> > to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/ 
>>> FAXes/phone
>>> > messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as  
>>> dealing
>>> with
>>> > paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and  
>>> managing
>>> the
>>> > millions of details that come with living each day isn't  
>>> rigamarole?
>>> >
>>> > Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>> >
>>> > Jeff Newberry
>>> >
>>> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away  
>>> from the
>>> >> rigamarole.
>>> >> --
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>> >>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>>> >>
>>> >> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>                                                  --Johnny Cash
>>
>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jfq at myuw.net  Tue Sep 26 23:00:52 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <80D812E1-C6BD-488B-83E6-42F5245AACA0@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609262000520.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>


you're talking about stein and pound? I disagree. Sure gertrude stein was supported by her family, but by and large the people involved in their scene were working other jobs that were "distractions" from their writing, and this in a world where one could still sell short stories and poems for a living. I'm taking as my model of the opposite of the mfa the main character in Orwell's Keep the Aspidistra Flying and noting that his experience doesn't appear all that different than what Hemingway describes in Moveable Feast, it's just that Hemingway had more supportive friends and was a more successful writer in that narrative.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, steve moore wrote:

>> d that "being in a writing/literature hot house isn't a good thing."
>
> It would be interesting to look at how many great poets of the past 250 years 
> were not in some form of a "writing/literature hot house." I think the 
> modernist salons would qualify, don't you?
>
>>> As I write next to non sequiters on student essays:  "Huh?"
>>> 
>>> Jeff Newberry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>> Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling to off
>>>> campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and 
>>>> "Figuring
>>>> out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your life 
>>>> as an
>>>> academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could say in
>>>> defense of my position.
>>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>>>> > It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
>>>> > faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
>>>> > meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses,
>>>> traveling
>>>> > to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/ 
>>>> FAXes/phone
>>>> > messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as 
>>>> dealing
>>>> with
>>>> > paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and 
>>>> managing
>>>> the
>>>> > millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
>>>> >
>>>> > Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>>> >
>>>> > Jeff Newberry
>>>> >
>>>> > On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from 
>>>> the
>>>> >> rigamarole.
>>>> >> --
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>>> >>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>>                                                  --Johnny Cash
>>> 
>>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 01:14:44 2006
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:14:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
Message-ID: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu>

Sweet Will

The man who stood beside me
34 years ago this night fell
on to the concrete, oily floor
of Detroit Transmission, and we
stepped carefully over him until
he wakened and went back to his press.

It was Friday night, and the others
told me that every Friday he drank
more than he could hold and fell
and he wasn't any dumber for it
so just let him get up at his
own sweet will or he'll hit you.

"At his own sweet will," was just
what the old black man said to me,
and he smiled the smile of one
who is still surprised that dawn
graying the cracked and broken windows
could start us all to singing in the cold.

Stash rose and wiped the back of his head
with a crumpled handkerchief and looked
at his own blood as though it were
dirt and puzzled as to how
it got there and then wiped the ends
of his fingers carefully one at a time

the way the mother wipes the fingers
of a sleeping child, and climbed back
on his wooden soda-pop case to
his punch press and hollered at all
of us over the oceanic roar of work,
addressing us by our names and nations?

"Nigger, Kike, Hunky, River Rat,"
but he gave it a tune, an old tune,
like "America the Beautiful." And he danced
a little two-step and smiled showing
the four stained teeth left in the front
and took another suck of cherry brandy.

In truth it was no longer Friday,
for night had turned to day as it
often does for those who are patient,
so it was Saturday in the year of ?48
in the very heart of the city of man
where your Cadillac cars get manufactured.

In truth all those people are dead,
they have gone up to heaven singing
"Time on My Hands" or "Begin the Beguine,"
and the Cadillacs have all gone back
to earth and nothing that we made
that night is worth more than me.

And in truth I'm not worth a thing
what with my feet and my two bad eyes
and my one long nose and my breath
of old lies and my sad tales of men
who let the earth break them back,
each one, to dirty blood or bloody dirt.

Not worth a thing! Just like it was said
at my magic birth when the stars
collided and fire fell from great space
into great space, and people rose one
by one from cold beds to tend a world
that runs on and on at its own sweet will.


--Philip Levine


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/90eb7d87/attachment.html>

From bmarcacci at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 00:38:20 2006
From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:38:20 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
In-Reply-To: <3f0.aafbba3.3249c060@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C140213C.C11%bmarcacci@gmail.com>

a little late on this thread (e-mail @#%@$)...

anyway, i second that MiPoesias stuff... just released the latest version of
The Goodnight Show which is temporarily called The Countdown, but available
for your aural pleasure here: <http://miporadio.blogspot.com/>

oh, yes, and hello... glad to be here...

-- 
Bob Marcacci
<http://marcacci.blogspot.com/>


> From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:29:36 EDT
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dylan prize and web
> 
>  
> In a message dated 9/25/2006 5:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> amyhappens at yahoo.com writes:
> 
>  
> Online journals also provide audio that most print journals  don't.  Check
> out MiPOesias for a good idea:  _http://www.mipoesias.com_
> (http://www.mipoesias.com/)
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking audio...we've got the stream working on
> _http://www.litstation.com_ (http://www.litstation.com)
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tad at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 04:50:38 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:50:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261842160.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <001401c6e212$01843c90$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

<<<I believe that craft only improves dramatically and one only achieves 
true originality when are has to fight for time in the ordinary milieu of 
life>>>

You'd have a tough time justifying that one historically. You'd have throw 
out Shelley, both Brownings, Dickinson, just for starters, and that's only 
poets. Probably all the Renaissance artists who had patrons. Certainly 
priests and monks, from Thomas Merton to G. M. Hopkins to Rabelais.

I actually don't have an MFA, though I did go to Iowa and participated in 
the MFA program. While I was there I drove a truck, shoveled coal, worked in 
the post office and as a night watchman, had a daughter, shot squirrels and 
rabbits for dinner because the food budget wouldn't stretch out the month. 
What was I missing in the fight for time in the ordinary milieu of life?

And I'm wondering if "MFA=boring" is an example of true originality? 



From tad at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 04:52:09 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:52:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261850260.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <001b01c6e212$37d013f0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Good lord...what rarified world do you live in, where you never have to do 
office work and someone else figures out what you're going to have for 
dinner?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole


> Are you joking? I think the fact that you've included "traveling to off 
> campus worksites," "dealing with email/FAXes/phone messages" and "Figuring 
> out what's for dinner" in the list of things that complicate your life as 
> an academic illustrates my point more clearly than anything I could say in 
> defense of my position.
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
>> It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to
>> faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation
>> meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, 
>> traveling
>> to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with email/FAXes/phone
>> messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as well as dealing 
>> with
>> paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for dinner, and managing 
>> the
>> millions of details that come with living each day isn't rigamarole?
>>
>> Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the
>>> rigamarole.
>>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>>                                                    --Johnny Cash
>>>
>>> http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 04:53:28 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:53:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261903180.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <002201c6e212$66a3b010$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

And your assumption that I didn't show up for work in the morning is based 
on...?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jfq at myuw.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole


>  What are the real life things that non-MFA's do that we're missing out 
> on?
>
> I dunno, having a full time job? Just off hand that's what occurs to me. 
> Or how about not being able to drive 125 miles at two in the morning to 
> mollycoddle your spoiled daughter because you'll lose that job if you 
> don't show up in the morning. Don't you people see how ridiculous the 
> stuff you're bringing up is? That you're only reinforcing my point? The 
> first rule of holes is if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. I 
> learned that in college.
>
> I'm not even sure why i'm arguing with this. If you're inclined to accept 
> this "college professors lives are hard too" nonsense, there's probably 
> nothing i can say to convince you otherwise.
>
>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Jeff Newberry
>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views
>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:22 PM
>>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>>
>>
>>  It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to 
>> faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation 
>> meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, 
>> traveling to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with 
>> email/FAXes/phone messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as 
>> well as dealing with paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for 
>> dinner, and managing the millions of details that come with living each 
>> day isn't rigamarole?
>>
>>  Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>
>>  Jeff Newberry
>>
>>  On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>
>>     Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the 
>> rigamarole.
>>    --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>                                                       --Johnny Cash
>>
>>    http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 27 05:30:32 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:30:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609261903180.12411@hymn06.u.washington.edu>
	<002201c6e212$66a3b010$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <003001c6e217$94786080$72d83052@ANNY>

What's happening? I am with Tad, always!

From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:53 AM


> And your assumption that I didn't show up for work in the morning is based 
> on...?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>
>
>>  What are the real life things that non-MFA's do that we're missing out 
>> on?
>>
>> I dunno, having a full time job? Just off hand that's what occurs to me. 
>> Or how about not being able to drive 125 miles at two in the morning to 
>> mollycoddle your spoiled daughter because you'll lose that job if you 
>> don't show up in the morning. Don't you people see how ridiculous the 
>> stuff you're bringing up is? That you're only reinforcing my point? The 
>> first rule of holes is if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. I 
>> learned that in college.
>>
>> I'm not even sure why i'm arguing with this. If you're inclined to accept 
>> this "college professors lives are hard too" nonsense, there's probably 
>> nothing i can say to convince you otherwise.
>>
>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Jeff Newberry
>>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:22 PM
>>>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>>>
>>>
>>>  It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to 
>>> faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation 
>>> meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, 
>>> traveling to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with 
>>> email/FAXes/phone messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes 
>>> as well as dealing with paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's 
>>> for dinner, and managing the millions of details that come with living 
>>> each day isn't rigamarole?
>>>
>>>  Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>>
>>>  Jeff Newberry
>>>
>>>  On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from 
>>> the rigamarole.
>>>    --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>>                                                       --Johnny Cash
>>>
>>>    http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 27 05:45:55 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:45:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request
Message-ID: <003701c6e219$ba65c790$72d83052@ANNY>

Is there somebody on the list who teaches 15-16 year-old students? My second high school class this morning asked me if I can find some American students with whom they would like to correspond: paper and pen. They want the old letter sort of thing. 

Thank you,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/f8551c6b/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep 27 06:11:38 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 06:11:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request
References: <003701c6e219$ba65c790$72d83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002101c6e21d$53f5bb60$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I substitue teach high school, Anny, so will ask today at my school.

--Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:45 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request


  Is there somebody on the list who teaches 15-16 year-old students? My second high school class this morning asked me if I can find some American students with whom they would like to correspond: paper and pen. They want the old letter sort of thing. 

  Thank you,

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/4e507419/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 06:57:24 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 06:57:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <c5f.25bfa1c.324bb314@aol.com>

 


I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue about teh valididty  
of the MFA.
 
It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid degree, don't get  
one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is worthwhile, don't read  it.
 
While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced, got arrested three  
times, flirted with serious financial disaster, worked in a car wash, poured  
concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse stuff. I also wrote a lot of 
 poems, lerned something about how to teach and began to learn something 
about my  craft.
 
In a message dated 9/26/2006 9:42:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfq at myuw.net  
writes:

X-INFO:  INVALID TO LINE
If you're really going to get all bunched up and flumoxxed  because I'm 
challenging the validity of your life choices, you should really  get the context 
right. The assertion has been made that "it's good for your  art to be able to 
be cloistered from real world concerns for a couple of years  to focus on 
craft." my statement about living in the world was a direct  response to that. To 
make it more clear, although I really don't see why it's  necessary as this is 
perfectly simple, I disagree that one can improve as an  artist of any kind 
by seeking out that kind of remove and I believe that craft  only improves 
dramatically and one only achieves true originality when are has  to fight for 
time in the ordinary milieu of life vs. what happens when seeking  out a special 
protected hot house environment to "develop and grow as a  writer" or some 
such nonsense. The difference is the robust and miraculous  
appearance of an orchid in the wild vs a carefully pampered and cultivated  
one in a greenhouse. Now, seriously, you can't have it both ways, either the  
MFA is a special environment or it isn't. I agree that it is, what's at issue  
is whether that is beneficial. I say it isn't. Now, if you want to respond to  
that, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say, but try not to be so 
 insulted. I don't care what you do for a living or where you went to school. 
 Whether or not you've wasted your time is no skin off my nose at all. All I  
know is, I can pick up a copy of a certain kind of magazine called a literary 
 journal, read a certain kind of poem, feel a certain kind of boredom, and 
can  turn to the contributor bio and have a "thought so" moment when i see "poet 
so  and so has an MFA from Iowa."


On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns  wrote:

> Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live  in the world
> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing  that.
>
> Part of the problem with your argument is that you  are setting up as a
> false class division which does not  exists.
>
> Come on.
>
> What makes you so certain  that people who have academic degrees don't
> "live in the world" that  non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
> rarified academy you  attended, but they really aren't like that. How
> are is studying in an  MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>
> School is no  more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
> almost every  writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
> had to  work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
> fun  stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
>  having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
>  pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
>  bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
>  it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my  MFA)
> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know  that
> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it  was
> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and  gave
> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>
> Honestly, I  don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
> world.   If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
> mean  occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
> rude  awakening.
>
> Suzanne
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing  list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing  list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/8f2267c9/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 07:03:27 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:03:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
In-Reply-To: <002201c6e212$66a3b010$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270403270.31513@hur11.myuw.net>

how long it takes to drive 250 miles round trip added to the amount of time it takes to mollycoddle. but if you did it, then damn dude, that's hard core and i'm so impressed i take back everything I said.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, TheOldMole wrote:

> And your assumption that I didn't show up for work in the morning is based 
> on...?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <jfq at myuw.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>
>
>>  What are the real life things that non-MFA's do that we're missing out on?
>> 
>> I dunno, having a full time job? Just off hand that's what occurs to me. Or 
>> how about not being able to drive 125 miles at two in the morning to 
>> mollycoddle your spoiled daughter because you'll lose that job if you don't 
>> show up in the morning. Don't you people see how ridiculous the stuff you're 
>> bringing up is? That you're only reinforcing my point? The first rule of 
>> holes is if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. I learned that in 
>> college.
>> 
>> I'm not even sure why i'm arguing with this. If you're inclined to accept 
>> this "college professors lives are hard too" nonsense, there's probably 
>> nothing i can say to convince you otherwise.
>> 
>> 
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Jeff Newberry
>>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:22 PM
>>>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rigamarole
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  It is?  You mean grading essays, dealing with administration, going to 
>>> faculty meetings, going to committee meetings, going to accreditation 
>>> meetings, conferencing with students, traveling to other campuses, 
>>> traveling to conferences, fixing computer problems, dealing with 
>>> email/FAXes/phone messages, fielding phone calls, and teaching classes as 
>>> well as dealing with paying the rent and bills, figuring out what's for 
>>> dinner, and managing the millions of details that come with living each 
>>> day isn't rigamarole?
>>> 
>>>  Gosh.  I must have some skewed definition of what rigamarole is.
>>> 
>>>  Jeff Newberry
>>> 
>>>  On 9/26/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>     Hell, academia is the definition of cloistering oneself away from the 
>>> rigamarole.
>>>    --
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    "Don't take your guns to town, son.  Leave your guns at home."
>>>                                                       --Johnny Cash
>>> 
>>>    http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 07:06:00 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request
In-Reply-To: <003701c6e219$ba65c790$72d83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270406000.31513@hur11.myuw.net>

I have a close friend who's a tenth grade english teacher in Washington State, I can forward her your request if you'd like.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Is there somebody on the list who teaches 15-16 year-old students? My second high school class this morning asked me if I can find some American students with whom they would like to correspond: paper and pen. They want the old letter sort of thing.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>




From cheekc at muohio.edu  Wed Sep 27 07:25:27 2006
From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cheekc)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:25:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu>
References: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu>

what's the function of the line break in this poem?

love and love
cris



On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:

> Sweet Will
>
> The man who stood beside me
> 34 years ago this night fell
> on to the concrete, oily floor
> of Detroit Transmission, and we
> stepped carefully over him until
> he wakened and went back to his press.
>
> It was Friday night, and the others
> told me that every Friday he drank
> more than he could hold and fell
> and he wasn't any dumber for it
> so just let him get up at his
> own sweet will or he'll hit you.
>
> "At his own sweet will," was just
> what the old black man said to me,
> and he smiled the smile of one
> who is still surprised that dawn
> graying the cracked and broken windows
> could start us all to singing in the cold.
>
> Stash rose and wiped the back of his head
> with a crumpled handkerchief and looked
> at his own blood as though it were
> dirt and puzzled as to how
> it got there and then wiped the ends
> of his fingers carefully one at a time
>
> the way the mother wipes the fingers
> of a sleeping child, and climbed back
> on his wooden soda-pop case to
> his punch press and hollered at all
> of us over the oceanic roar of work,
> addressing us by our names and nations?
>
> "Nigger, Kike, Hunky, River Rat,"
> but he gave it a tune, an old tune,
> like "America the Beautiful." And he danced
> a little two-step and smiled showing
> the four stained teeth left in the front
> and took another suck of cherry brandy.
>
> In truth it was no longer Friday,
> for night had turned to day as it
> often does for those who are patient,
> so it was Saturday in the year of ?48
> in the very heart of the city of man
> where your Cadillac cars get manufactured.
>
> In truth all those people are dead,
> they have gone up to heaven singing
> "Time on My Hands" or "Begin the Beguine,"
> and the Cadillacs have all gone back
> to earth and nothing that we made
> that night is worth more than me.
>
> And in truth I'm not worth a thing
> what with my feet and my two bad eyes
> and my one long nose and my breath
> of old lies and my sad tales of men
> who let the earth break them back,
> each one, to dirty blood or bloody dirt.
>
> Not worth a thing! Just like it was said
> at my magic birth when the stars
> collided and fire fell from great space
> into great space, and people rose one
> by one from cold beds to tend a world
> that runs on and on at its own sweet will.
>
>
> --Philip Levine
>
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/9d2f35d3/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 27 07:52:37 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:52:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request
References: <003701c6e219$ba65c790$72d83052@ANNY>
	<002101c6e21d$53f5bb60$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008501c6e22b$6de0d4c0$72d83052@ANNY>

Thank you Bob!
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request


  I substitue teach high school, Anny, so will ask today at my school.

  --Bob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:45 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request


    Is there somebody on the list who teaches 15-16 year-old students? My second high school class this morning asked me if I can find some American students with whom they would like to correspond: paper and pen. They want the old letter sort of thing. 

    Thank you,

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/d676493d/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 08:39:01 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:39:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request
References: <003701c6e219$ba65c790$72d83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <001501c6e231$e9516ba0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I have 14 and 15-year-old grandsons. Will that help?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:45 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] unusual and special request


  Is there somebody on the list who teaches 15-16 year-old students? My second high school class this morning asked me if I can find some American students with whom they would like to correspond: paper and pen. They want the old letter sort of thing. 

  Thank you,

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/e121c80f/attachment.html>

From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 09:34:18 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
Message-ID: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years.  After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff.  What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks.  Hell guys, this argument is lame.  You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program.  Lots of bad poetry being written.  Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
 
 
 A question.  What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better?  What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
 
 
 Jim
 
 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/f7a14baf/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 09:38:43 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:38:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C8B051629F07A1-E94-4DAD@FWM-D30.sysops.aol.com>

I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 


Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.


A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?


Jim


Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/afa55fbb/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 09:40:39 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:40:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What People Do
Message-ID: <1815.1159364439@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/40f525a4/attachment.html>

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 09:48:04 2006
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:48:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kay Ryan
Message-ID: <85B7DF7C-C14A-4B8D-84BB-ED1244ACCFCF@ripon.edu>

Born this day in 1945, according to Garrison Keillor, who supplies  
this example poem also on today's almanac:

Things Shouldn't Be So Hard

A life should leave
deep tracks:
ruts where she
went out and back
to get the mail
or move the hose
around the yard;
where she used to
stand before the sink,
a worn-out place;
beneath her hand
the china knobs
rubbed down to
white pastilles;
the switch she
used to feel for
in the dark
almost erased.
Her things should
keep her marks.
The passage
of a life should show;
it should abrade.
And when life stops,
a certain space?
however small?
should be left scarred
by the grand and
damaging parade.
Things shouldn't
be so hard.

-- Kay Ryan.  The Niagara River. Grove Press.





==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/54fd17d6/attachment.html>

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 09:52:33 2006
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:52:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The wise guy in the back row
Message-ID: <5E971512-9849-477E-AD42-BAC02ED06C9C@ripon.edu>

No, not a comment on recent postings here, but a very interesting  
essay by Mark Halliday on James Tate & his critics.  From Pleiades:

http://www.cmsu.edu/englphil/pleiades/Hallidayreview.html



==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/55b4bd8f/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 10:08:13 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:08:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <c5f.25bfa1c.324bb314@aol.com>
References: <c5f.25bfa1c.324bb314@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue about teh valididty
> of the MFA.
>
> It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid degree, don't get
> one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is worthwhile, don't read it.
>
> While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced, got arrested
> three times, flirted with serious financial disaster, worked in a car wash,
> poured concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse stuff. I also wrote
> a lot of poems, lerned something about how to teach and began to learn
> something about my craft.
>


Well spoken.  Honestly, I don't know  ANY poet in any tradition with or
without any degree who didn't have struggle.  The only people I know who
think academia is a hothouse are people who have never been there.

Face it guys:  there isn't any escape from real life.  There aren't any
"hothouses".  Its a fiction.  A platitude.  A fantasy.  A false division
some people invent so that they can conveniently rail against others,
justify themselves, and indulge in self-pity for (boo hoo) having to work.
A convenient excuse for failure:  It's all because of the system!  I'm not a
member of the cub!

Pfffft.  There is no "club", no "hothouse".  Going to Iowa does not exempt
you from having to work.  If you publish, nobody will care if you don't have
an MFA.  If you don't publish, nobody will care if you do.  mOst people who
go the MFA route are well aware of that.

Life is suffering and nobody is exempt from struggle.  Even if you look at
poets who seem as though they were living in "hothouses" (Dickinson,
Browning, Shelley, et. al.) it still begs the question:  what do you know
about their inner lives?  Was Dickinson coddled?  Did Browning or Shelley
never suffer?  Did Gertrude Stein just sit around having her nails done?

Was James Merrill's life a hothouse daisy?  Some might think so, I suppose,
but I think that's envy talking.  Is your poetry better than Merrill's
because your heat just got turned off?  Give me a break.  Think that having
to work somehow makes you into John Clare?  Guess again, darling.


Suzanne Burns
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/c2ee269d/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 10:32:38 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270732380.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>


this really isn't difficult, really, i mean, really, it's not difficult. i don't think that concentrating on craft and taking a lot of writing workshops to the exclusion of other mental activities is beneficial for a writer. I think it's much more important that a writer concentrate on content before form, and that doing an MFA when most people do it, in their twenties, is generally  In fact, I've seen a lot of evidence that it does damage and offer as my evidence the pages of The Paris Review and Agni, both of which are chock full of people with MFAs. This has nothing to do with whether MFA's have lives outside of MFA programs, just whether MFA programs themselves and the system they promote are good or bad for literature. the issue of whether college professors work like any other stiff is a tangential argument, and one that while i'm willing to have it strays quite a bit from the issue 
of whether or not getting an MFA will make you a bad poet. Like anything it's a crap shoot, but i have yet to see any evidence that it does anybody any good to get one and my theory as to why it does bad in so many cases is the aforementioned rarified air that fucks up people's priorities as writers. Not that they still can't be fine people.

and be careful in bangkok for christs sake. I'm in manila right now and all the papers can talk about is the cascading effect of the coup leading to sweeping anti-democratic reforms in southeast asia. Which is nice to know that journalism is all the same the world over.

okay, i've said all i have to on that subject. for a more coherent version of these very off the cuff remarks, read the last six months or so of WetAsphalt, a blogazine I co-edit. Currently taking submissions from poets, even ones with MFAs.

And Jim you can't possibly write the best poetry in the Universe, because I write the second best poetry in the Universe, and I have it on good authority that the only guy better than me lives in a clay hut in adis ababa and doesn't know how to use a computer.
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:

> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years.  After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff.  What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks.  Hell guys, this argument is lame.  You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program.  Lots of bad poetry being written.  Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>
>
> A question.  What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better?  What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>
>
> Jim
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 10:40:11 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <8C8B051629F07A1-E94-4DAD@FWM-D30.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270740110.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>


i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.

As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:

> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>
>
> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>
>
> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>
>
> Jim
>
>
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 10:47:58 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:47:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270747580.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>


I've really said everything I have to say on this subject and in the absence of anything better than "hey you're wrong. dick." from those who disagree with me, i feel more than vindicated in my original statement that MFAs are bad preparation for anything. They're obviously bad preparation for learning how to make a reasoned and supported argument. I suppose that's why it's "Creative" Writing though. Leave all that expository evidencey stuff to the MAs, your art is FINE.

Seriously though Suzy, you don't mind if I call you Suzy, do you sugar? Weren't you the one who started all this by pointing out that getting an MFA was a chance to "Take writing seriously" and "not have to work and just concentrate on craft?" or was that someone else? Because you can't have it both ways, either being in an MFA program is a hothouse or it isn't.

And finally, when somebody shows me a facsimile of Emily Dickinson's MFA Certificate from Mt Holyoke, then I'll start taking that analogy seriously. Until then, whatever, I'm great, brilliant, talented and funny and you're all being defensive over something stupid. Have a nice day.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns wrote:

> On 9/27/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue about teh valididty
>> of the MFA.
>> 
>> It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid degree, don't get
>> one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is worthwhile, don't read it.
>> 
>> While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced, got arrested
>> three times, flirted with serious financial disaster, worked in a car wash,
>> poured concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse stuff. I also wrote
>> a lot of poems, lerned something about how to teach and began to learn
>> something about my craft.
>> 
>
>
> Well spoken.  Honestly, I don't know  ANY poet in any tradition with or
> without any degree who didn't have struggle.  The only people I know who
> think academia is a hothouse are people who have never been there.
>
> Face it guys:  there isn't any escape from real life.  There aren't any
> "hothouses".  Its a fiction.  A platitude.  A fantasy.  A false division
> some people invent so that they can conveniently rail against others,
> justify themselves, and indulge in self-pity for (boo hoo) having to work.
> A convenient excuse for failure:  It's all because of the system!  I'm not a
> member of the cub!
>
> Pfffft.  There is no "club", no "hothouse".  Going to Iowa does not exempt
> you from having to work.  If you publish, nobody will care if you don't have
> an MFA.  If you don't publish, nobody will care if you do.  mOst people who
> go the MFA route are well aware of that.
>
> Life is suffering and nobody is exempt from struggle.  Even if you look at
> poets who seem as though they were living in "hothouses" (Dickinson,
> Browning, Shelley, et. al.) it still begs the question:  what do you know
> about their inner lives?  Was Dickinson coddled?  Did Browning or Shelley
> never suffer?  Did Gertrude Stein just sit around having her nails done?
>
> Was James Merrill's life a hothouse daisy?  Some might think so, I suppose,
> but I think that's envy talking.  Is your poetry better than Merrill's
> because your heat just got turned off?  Give me a break.  Think that having
> to work somehow makes you into John Clare?  Guess again, darling.
>
>
> Suzanne Burns
>




From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Wed Sep 27 10:52:43 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 06:52:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>

Sounds like Dubbing Anime Porn into english works pretty well.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 5:34 AM, jim goar wrote:

> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and  
> maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you  
> think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to  
> Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back  
> in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out  
> on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone  
> to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that  
> I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>
> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be  
> even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good  
> (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>
> Jim
>
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/5d1ce3df/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 10:54:40 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:54:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270747580.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
References: <aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270747580.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>
> Seriously though Suzy, you don't mind if I call you Suzy, do you sugar?



Actually I do mind very much.  I think you are acting like quite the
asshole, and I do have a problem with your sexist tone as well as your
inability to hear anything other than your own voice.  If you cannot show
better respect for others on the list, be prepared to be disregarded.

Sorry, but this kind crap pretty much  ends any possibility of taking you
seriously.

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/703e3dca/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Sep 27 11:00:02 2006
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:00:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu><Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net><aa458fec0609261152pc80b5cfh55ce21eb0fd177ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<007a01c6e1a2$a44c6760$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <00c401c6e245$9d27f460$b9089942@Helen>

I have to jump in here - Helen Ruggieri,  MFA.  We're making an argument 
about who has one and who hasn't

The problem with the MFA is that it promotes the Academy (as a corollary 
think of the French Academy that held the exhibits and gave out the prizes 
etc. and kept the Impressionists out).  That's the problem - the 
institutionalization of the process.  Who sits on the juries, who gives out 
the money - who picks the "winners"
and who writes in the mode.

The argument is about the heiarchy - and it's easy for someone on the 
outside to say hey, I'll go join up for this program and become one of the 
haves.  But now we're overburdened with haves who write in the mode.

Ovewrsupply, underdemand.
Can't remember intro to economics but I don't think that's good.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)


> What Suzanne said. And eloquently.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>
>
>> <I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
>> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>
>>
>> Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
>> false class division which does not exists.
>>
>> Come on.
>>
>> What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
>> "live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
>> rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
>> are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>>
>> School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
>> almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
>> had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
>> fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
>> having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
>> pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
>> bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
>> it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
>> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
>> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
>> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
>> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>>
>> Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
>> world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
>> mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
>> rude awakening.
>>
>> Suzanne
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Wed Sep 27 11:03:06 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:03:06 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270740110.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270740110.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <A15D589D-69A7-43B5-A85F-877A4A83AC0B@uaf.edu>

I teach literature, and though I am only in class 3 or four hours a  
week, I work anywhere from 50-60 hours outside of class, sometimes  
more. I would say that this is the standard for teaching, not the  
exception.
On Sep 27, 2006, at 6:40 AM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

>
> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time  
> job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit  
> workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even  
> shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things,  
> because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to  
> try to reach it.
>
> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually  
> stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you  
> consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and  
> tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your  
> laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really  
> castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.
>
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>
>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like  
>> mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon,  
>> helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and  
>> dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers  
>> and try to teach people things.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>
>>
>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and  
>> maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you  
>> think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went  
>> to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going  
>> back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss  
>> out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not  
>> gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just  
>> glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>
>>
>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can  
>> be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so  
>> good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _____________________________________________________________________ 
>> ___
>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and  
>> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos  
>> from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 11:06:46 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:06:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C13FFDB6.BB70%grahamd@ripon.edu>


On 9/27/06 9:54 AM, "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, but this kind crap pretty much  ends any possibility of taking you
> seriously.
> 
> Suzanne
> 
>  
> 
> Amen.  I've seen a lot of interesting voices drop away from this list (&
> others) over crap just like this.  Unfortunately, it's often the women.  In
> fact, an entire list was formed (WomPo), and is still going strong, in
> reaction to the bullies-in-the-playground tone of the old CAP-L discussion
> list & others.  
> 
> I just wanted to say that I hope you stick around, Suzanne.
> 
> 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/09cbf299/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 11:07:33 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:07:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>
References: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270807k4926a6d7yfd58229c0723306d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, steve moore <fssam6 at uaf.edu> wrote:
>
> Sounds like Dubbing Anime Porn into english works pretty well.
>


Dubbing anime porn was a blast.  Honestly, that's the type of job I don't
think I could ever make up, and the pay was great.  I came upon it by
accident-- a friend who was a producer stopped me at a party because he
thought I had just the right voice.

Most voice over artists are professional though and work rather hard to
break in, and most of the voice over jobs out there are considerably less
interesting than this one was.

I find it fascinating to talk about work, but I would like to address a
point made earlier-- piling up interesting job experience doesn't make
anyone a great writer.  Writing is what makes you a writer.  Period.  There
isn't any getting around that.

Like everyone else out there, I work because I have to answer to all of
those envelopes that pile up in my mailbox (you know the ones that have
windows on them?)  This means I have to be clever about finding time for my
writing.  Nothing more.  It doesn't make me a better person or a better
writer, a reject platitudes that label people based upon such superficial
(and ignorant) criteria.

If I bagged me a rich man who would leave bon-bons and piles of hundred
dollar bills on my nightstand each morning, I would be perfectly happy to
move my desk into a hothouse and write all day, though I suspect that even
that life would not be quite so simple.  Life never is.  I have no problem
with any hand that life deals me.

Cheers,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/baf77960/attachment.html>

From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 11:12:22 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kay Ryan Writers almanac
Message-ID: <20060927151223.30382.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Every morning, before I go to the gym, while still happily in the car, I hear the writers almanac.  Why do you have to double my pain by posting it again?  That stuff gets me so fired up in the morning, I love it.  Now I am going to go burn off some of my anger by training a wild tiger with my hands tied behind my back.  Tough job, but some of us poets need to work in the real world.   
 
 
 *
 
 
 I was in Bangkok three years ago.  Out now.   Seems things are still calm over there. I am going back to Seoul.  So no no danger to my person either way.  Really though, the King has things under control.  
 
 
 *
 
 
 I will check out the web mag.
 Since we are talking about magazines, you all can check out mine too
 www.pastsimple.org
 
 
 *
 
 
 Hope everyone's day is full of real life.



Jim Goar
   
 
 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/98863cad/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 11:13:31 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:13:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270740110.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <8C8B05EA08F847E-1780-41D@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>

Mmm, yeah. This morning I taught a rememdial class subject-verb agreement, in an hour I'll teach James Agee and WJ Cash. My workshop isn't until tomorrow. Then I'll spend about three hours grading papers. Sometime around 9 I'll have time to get some writing done. 
 
I've had plenty of more "interesting" jobs, including some that were physically dangerous. But I'm 48 and about to become a parent--another example of my coddled existence I guess (real poets don't have time for children!)--and I enjoy teaching. And I'm good at it. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: jfq at myuw.net
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
 
i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it. 
 
As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going. 
 
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote: 
 
> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com 
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM 
> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA 
> 
> 
> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe. 
> 
> 
> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)? 
> 
> 
> Jim 
> 
> 
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________ 
> New-Poetry mailing list 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> ________________________________________________________________________ 
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. 
> 
 
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/57bc767b/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 11:21:58 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:21:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes
Message-ID: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I guess "MFA" is just one of those red-flag words by now, like "Iowa," that
inflame most discussions before they can get off the ground.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing some conversation about what's wrong with
the MFA system, and what's right about it--preferably from folks who've been
through it and can speak to concerns "on the ground," as they say.

Plenty was wrong with the program I attended, 28 years ago, and I'll happily
regale anyone with war stories without much provocation.  Still, for a
variety of reasons I'm very glad I went.

But one fact often neglected by the diatribists is the extremely wide range
of kinds & quality of program out there.  Not to mention the many reasons
why someone might choose to attend, the array of things one can "do" with
the degree, and so on.

For a bracing account of some real serious teaching in the MFA context, I
recommend Philip Levine's chapter in his memoir on the subject of Lowell &
Berryman at Iowa.  He has little use for Lowell, but Berryman was a wizard
of a teacher.  Very inspiring stuff.  And pretty amazing classmates Levine
had, too, including Snodgrass, Justice, and Jane Cooper.

Levine's book, if you haven't read it, is very good.  Title is *The Bread of
Time*.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Wed Sep 27 11:22:09 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:22:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270807k4926a6d7yfd58229c0723306d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>
	<aa458fec0609270807k4926a6d7yfd58229c0723306d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E1E7476-B5D0-4B68-99CB-139B22752E41@uaf.edu>

I just would like to say that athough I do think the MFA program is  
valuable, and that the naysayers are attacking a program because it  
doesn't instantaneously produce great writers out of everyone, and  
the comments have bordered on the nasty (as well as very funny: My  
name is Steve, and I'm a baby eater), I think it's a good discussion  
to have. The MFA program has institutionalized (corporatized) the  
writing process. While I don't think that is a bad thing yet, it  
could become something destructive without anyone seriously  
questioning it. However, there is always a corrective measure, such  
as the impressionists, futurists, language poets, etc. We will see  
some group come along and break apart the stale regime when it  
becomes stale. It is important that we keep discussing (maybe not  
here, people seem to be getting their feelings hurt) this issue so  
that we don't become complacent, and so that we keep seeing both  
sides--let me repeat that--BOTH SIDES of the issue.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 7:07 AM, Suzanne Burns wrote:

>
>
> On 9/27/06, steve moore <fssam6 at uaf.edu> wrote:
> Sounds like Dubbing Anime Porn into english works pretty well.
>
>
> Dubbing anime porn was a blast.  Honestly, that's the type of job I  
> don't think I could ever make up, and the pay was great.  I came  
> upon it by accident-- a friend who was a producer stopped me at a  
> party because he  thought I had just the right voice.
>
> Most voice over artists are professional though and work rather  
> hard to break in, and most of the voice over jobs out there are  
> considerably less interesting than this one was.
>
> I find it fascinating to talk about work, but I would like to  
> address a point made earlier-- piling up interesting job experience  
> doesn't make anyone a great writer.  Writing is what makes you a  
> writer.  Period.  There isn't any getting around that.
>
> Like everyone else out there, I work because I have to answer to  
> all of those envelopes that pile up in my mailbox (you know the  
> ones that have windows on them?)  This means I have to be clever  
> about finding time for my writing.  Nothing more.  It doesn't make  
> me a better person or a better writer, a reject platitudes that  
> label people based upon such superficial (and ignorant) criteria.
>
> If I bagged me a rich man who would leave bon-bons and piles of  
> hundred dollar bills on my nightstand each morning, I would be  
> perfectly happy to move my desk into a hothouse and write all day,  
> though I suspect that even that life would not be quite so simple.   
> Life never is.  I have no problem with any hand that life deals me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Suzanne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/9dd0256d/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 11:25:11 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:25:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>
References: <20060927133418.81159.qmail@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<62075C23-5F2C-431D-A4D7-00D50A351CB8@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609270825lc70f59ekc37825cdd2803895@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, steve moore <fssam6 at uaf.edu> wrote:
> Sounds like Dubbing Anime Porn into english works pretty well.

Somebody did a good job here:

http://www.geocities.com/romanelegy

Actually, I was thinking jfq was a spambot of somekind.

Roger
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 5:34 AM, jim goar wrote:
>
> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even
> during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after
> s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to
> Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument
> is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that
> have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just
> glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>
>
> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even
> better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though,
> obviously, not as good as mine)?
>
>
> Jim
>
> ________________________________
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 11:25:23 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:25:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <C13FFDB6.BB70%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C13FFDB6.BB70%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270825l4580887di614389e89e385362@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/27/06 9:54 AM, "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, but this kind crap pretty much  ends any possibility of taking you
> seriously.
>
> Suzanne
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Amen.  I've seen a lot of interesting voices drop away from this list (&
> others) over crap just like this.  Unfortunately, it's often the women.  In
> fact, an entire list was formed (WomPo), and is still going strong, in
> reaction to the bullies-in-the-playground tone of the old CAP-L discussion
> list & others.
>
> I just wanted to say that I hope you stick around, Suzanne.
>
>
Thank you. :-)  Never fear, I'm not going anywhere. It would take much more
than garden variety school boy sexist crap to drive me away.


Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/3ee118cc/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 11:31:19 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:31:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu>
References: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu>
	<8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480609270831o1dd0a769k99459a6bc0cbcc02@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know. What do you think it is?

best
Roger

On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>
>
> love and love
> cris
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>
> Sweet Will
>
>
> The man who stood beside me
> 34 years ago this night fell
> on to the concrete, oily floor
> of Detroit Transmission, and we
> stepped carefully over him until
> he wakened and went back to his press.
>
>
> It was Friday night, and the others
> told me that every Friday he drank
> more than he could hold and fell
> and he wasn't any dumber for it
> so just let him get up at his
> own sweet will or he'll hit you.
>
>
> "At his own sweet will," was just
> what the old black man said to me,
> and he smiled the smile of one
> who is still surprised that dawn
> graying the cracked and broken windows
> could start us all to singing in the cold.
>
>
> Stash rose and wiped the back of his head
> with a crumpled handkerchief and looked
> at his own blood as though it were
> dirt and puzzled as to how
> it got there and then wiped the ends
> of his fingers carefully one at a time
>
>
> the way the mother wipes the fingers
> of a sleeping child, and climbed back
> on his wooden soda-pop case to
> his punch press and hollered at all
> of us over the oceanic roar of work,
> addressing us by our names and nations?
>
>
> "Nigger, Kike, Hunky, River Rat,"
> but he gave it a tune, an old tune,
> like "America the Beautiful." And he danced
> a little two-step and smiled showing
> the four stained teeth left in the front
> and took another suck of cherry brandy.
>
>
> In truth it was no longer Friday,
> for night had turned to day as it
> often does for those who are patient,
> so it was Saturday in the year of '48
> in the very heart of the city of man
> where your Cadillac cars get manufactured.
>
>
> In truth all those people are dead,
> they have gone up to heaven singing
> "Time on My Hands" or "Begin the Beguine,"
> and the Cadillacs have all gone back
> to earth and nothing that we made
> that night is worth more than me.
>
>
> And in truth I'm not worth a thing
> what with my feet and my two bad eyes
> and my one long nose and my breath
> of old lies and my sad tales of men
> who let the earth break them back,
> each one, to dirty blood or bloody dirt.
>
>
> Not worth a thing! Just like it was said
> at my magic birth when the stars
> collided and fire fell from great space
> into great space, and people rose one
> by one from cold beds to tend a world
> that runs on and on at its own sweet will.
>
>
>
>
> --Philip Levine
>
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence



From millb at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 11:32:44 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:32:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What People Do
In-Reply-To: <1815.1159364439@opus40.org>
References: <1815.1159364439@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <8C8B0615019A971-1184-1F7E@mblk-d50.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Tad and the group,
 
I've read some of these postings and deleted some as well, so if this topic of what people do has already been covered, please forgive me. 
 
What I do is this: I write.  
 
Whatever kind of writing I can do that people will pay me for. What does that mean? For me, for the past 16 years that has meant technical writing for large corporations, newsletters for smaller corporations, articles and reviews in local arts publications, grants and the occasional poem or literary essay.  Good years bring residencies and grants and provide more time to write what I want to write and less time that I have to write IT SOPs and SOWs to pay the mortgage.
 
Someone early on in this discussion thread mentioned Hemingway getting paid massive amounts for writing short stories. . . Again, I may be wrong, but, as I recall, what Hemingway did (at least in the beginning) was marry a wealthy woman with an "allowance" and work as a journalist.
 
 
Cheers!
 
Mill
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 6:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] What People Do


The drive? It's not that hard. It's pretty much the kind of thing you expect to do, if you're a parent. Go up to the college, pick her up, let her talk and cry while you're driving back down, take her to breakfast, go to work, drive her back up the next day. I'm guessing parenting is not part of your life, if you can sneer at it so easily as mollycoddling?

OK, so we've ruled out office work, food preparation and parenting from the stuff that real folks do. So if you don't do any of those things, and you still lead a more real, honest, productive, creativity-inspiring life than an MBA, what is it that you do? What do that Philip Levine or Richard Hugo never did? What do you do that I've never done?

Tad

= 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/736facf5/attachment.html>

From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Sep 27 11:37:35 2006
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:37:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
Message-ID: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in English accentual-syllabic poetry.

I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2 years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year), played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying, during five of which he didn't know who I was.

The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested. 

And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and they dance with phonological stress.
 
On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:

>
>i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>
>As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.
>
>On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>
>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>
>>
>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>
>>
>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium


From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Sep 27 11:40:10 2006
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:40:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] not dead yet
Message-ID: <14853552.1159371610502.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Just re-inventing my life again. I have only occasional web access, and that mostly at work. 

I should soon be able to be more active here again, and to resume posting at the Sonnetarium.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium


From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 11:44:02 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:44:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/0aeafe48/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 11:48:57 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:48:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <8C8B05EA08F847E-1780-41D@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270740110.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
	<8C8B05EA08F847E-1780-41D@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270848w5edb5225m56a4ef17500bdb2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've had plenty of more "interesting" jobs, including some that were
> physically dangerous. But I'm 48 and about to become a parent--another
> example of my coddled existence I guess (real poets don't have time for
> children!)--and I enjoy teaching. And I'm good at it.
>


"Interesting" jobs get old.  I have had many, including teaching English in
Turkish Kurdistan, and in the end I am not all that impressed.  One of the
best contemporary poets I know is a social worker in Vermont who has never
lived anywhere else or had any "excitment".  The quest to pile up exciting
experience can actually get pretty superficial.  After awhile, you want to
be able to show real results.

Being a parent:  Frankly I can't think of any scarier job.  That child is
your responsibility, and you are going to end up doing all kinds of crazy
shit you otherwise would never do just to protect him/her.  Including
cultivating a life of boring economic and emotional stability so that he/she
can be happy and carefree. You can't walk away, there isn't any escape, and
where things end up is not completely in your control.  Yep.  That sounds
pretty serious to me.

On the other hand, there are the benefits:  I don't have kids but I have
step kids, and watching them bloom into the people they have become has been
incredible.  (I'd dote, but I will spare you that.)  They have taken me in
directions I would have otherwise never gone (e.g., rock climbing never
ocurred to me).  E. is going to China next year for a semester, and I am
saving money so that we can go on a trek together.

Teaching:  I loved teaching but couldn't make it work economically.  Hence
my new supposedly  "unexciting" career as a tech writer/editor--- which has
in turn opened up a lot of other unexpected doors.  Frankly it has been much
better for my writing than dubbing anime porn.


Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/2da2520f/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 11:52:27 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:52:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
Message-ID: <2100.1159372347@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/636544b2/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 11:54:49 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kay Ryan Writers almanac
Message-ID: <2106.1159372489@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/6e698eaa/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 12:00:28 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:00:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
Message-ID: <2114.1159372828@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/f78eef90/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 12:01:08 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:01:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] not dead yet
Message-ID: <2115.1159372868@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/3dbcb97e/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 12:01:22 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:01:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>
References: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609270901r640dbd85w1eb53f4e5cf5d2ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>
>
> I'm wondering how you managed to get it without preparing for it in any
> way, or working at developing the skills you would need for it.



Its easy.  Just photocopy someone else's degree, white out their name and
put in yours.  Then pay some friends to create fake letterhead for the
references, and hope that six months go by before anyone figures it out.

Cake!

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/f14715dc/attachment.html>

From oedipa at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 12:05:07 2006
From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:05:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <d1c74efd0609270905m75b53a7ay15ec3371f2b51d93@mail.gmail.com>

David, you can always regale me.....  And although you know which
program I'm attending, since I'm mostly a lurker on this list, I'd
rather not say right now where I'm an MFA candidate.

Ooops!  I said it.  Here let me try again....  I'm an MFA candidate!
I write poems and whatnot at a university somewhere in the northeast
sector of the United States.

And yes, there's plenty wrong with these programs.  How valuable the
experience can be depends on who you are going in and how you protect
yourself and your writing from the criticisms and aesthetic
evaluations of others.  Not to mention letting movements influence
your writing so much that you end sounding like everyone else in Fence
or Octopus.  Not that there aren't loads of great poems in those
reviews, but sometimes the snarkiness and the surreal found in much of
the work published there starts to overwhelm me.

Then again, I tend to write in a more compressed, possibly even lyric
narrative sort of way.  God forbid I write a sestina or it might be
the last straw. Other grad students would probably feel the need to
thrown me straight over into the Dana Gioia camp.

Ah...see I'm doing it.  Lumping others in their groups to make myself
feel seperate.  Imagining what groups my fellow students have assigned
me.

It's enough to strip poetry of all its magic, this way of thinking
Don't you agree?  But in a nutshell, that's what can be wrong with MFA
programs.

The other issue is that many of the students are coming straight out
of undergrad programs.  Blech!  No life experience whatsoever.  And
they think they can write, but (and I'm going out on a limb here), I
disagree.

Others are sleeping their way to the top with the rising stars of the
poetry world.  Some are convnced that the more they act like snarky,
ice-cube hipsters, the more important and intelligent they will seem.

So, that's all that I see wrong.  Here's why I'm still doing it.
Time.  Yes, time to write.  Learning how, after 15 years in the work
force, to take a lot of unstructured time and mold that into a writing
schedule.  Also, three or so years to work on a book.  It's good to
have material going into the program to begin such a venture as you'll
look back on it later and wish that's one of the things you had done.
Or so I assume.

Exposure to interesting poets on the faculty.  This can either go
terribly wrong, or turn out to be a rewarding relationship.  I've
heard horror stories about Walcott and Boston U. for instance.  Glad I
didn't go there.  My school has nice famous poets who really work hard
to support our writing endeavors.  They seem to enjoy what they do.
That's important.  Other programs have faculty that pit students
against one another, and some who ignore them altogether.

Funding is another great thing.  I found a college that is paying my
tuition and giving me a nice stipend per month in exchange for my
teaching one class a semester.  And I love to teach.  And having been
a web programmer for many years (still am at times), teaching is a
nice skill to have in addition.  A new skill.

Location.  I got to relocate to a beautiful place.  A place full of
writers and artists and peace and quiet.  It helps inspire me.

Well, that's all for now.  Oh by the way, I'm Karen.  I guess you can
see that from my email name.  Nice to meet you all.  And I know David
here from another list serve I've been on for many years.

Over and out,

k



On 9/27/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> I guess "MFA" is just one of those red-flag words by now, like "Iowa," that
> inflame most discussions before they can get off the ground.
>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing some conversation about what's wrong with
> the MFA system, and what's right about it--preferably from folks who've been
> through it and can speak to concerns "on the ground," as they say.
>
> Plenty was wrong with the program I attended, 28 years ago, and I'll happily
> regale anyone with war stories without much provocation.  Still, for a
> variety of reasons I'm very glad I went.
>
> But one fact often neglected by the diatribists is the extremely wide range
> of kinds & quality of program out there.  Not to mention the many reasons
> why someone might choose to attend, the array of things one can "do" with
> the degree, and so on.
>
> For a bracing account of some real serious teaching in the MFA context, I
> recommend Philip Levine's chapter in his memoir on the subject of Lowell &
> Berryman at Iowa.  He has little use for Lowell, but Berryman was a wizard
> of a teacher.  Very inspiring stuff.  And pretty amazing classmates Levine
> had, too, including Snodgrass, Justice, and Jane Cooper.
>
> Levine's book, if you haven't read it, is very good.  Title is *The Bread of
> Time*.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From rnameroff at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 27 12:14:14 2006
From: rnameroff at earthlink.net (Rochelle Nameroff)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:14:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c5f.25bfa1c.324bb314@aol.com>
	<aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <489dca85cf0342d456683fba172f22e7@earthlink.net>

I really agree with this!  While studying & writing for my MFA (at 
Iowa!) I worked in a hospital, sold my clothes, taught and edited.

  And I'd really like to speak up for the Iowa Writers Workshop, which I 
loved.  As a Bay Area poet, where the discussion of poetry often 
resembled baseball leagues (with the loudest league measuring their 
work on the experimental or hipness scale), I  had been "taught" that 
Iowa was the enemy.  I went there with a hip chip on my shoulder.

In Iowa I found a larger and more tolerant variety of writers.  There 
were experimental poets and formal poets, but the vast majority of 
writers were trying all kinds of things and were open to hearing a 
variety of voices.  The auditoriums, bookstores and cafes were packed 
for readings of all kinds of writers, and there was much 
cross-fertilization of writers, artists, dancers and theater.  And, 
unlike most the universities across the country where I've studied or 
taught, the libraries of the University of Iowa were filled with 
readers (U.C. Berkeley, too, though Iowa had the best & most various 
collection of literary magazines, and at Iowa you could also read the 
MFA theses of all of the writers who had passed through the Writers 
Workshop, which was fascinating).

I think writers benefit from a community of writers, whether living or 
in books.  They also benefit from everything else they open themselves 
to.

Rochelle Nameroff
On Sep 27, 2006, at 7:08 AM, Suzanne Burns wrote:

>
>
> On 9/27/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote: ?
>> ?
>> I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue about teh 
>> valididty of the MFA.
>> ?
>> It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid degree, don't 
>> get one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is worthwhile, 
>> don't read it.
>> ?
>> While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced, got arrested 
>> three times, flirted with serious financial disaster, worked in a car 
>> wash, poured concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse stuff. 
>> I also wrote a lot of poems, lerned something about how to teach and 
>> began to learn something about my craft.
>
> Well spoken.? Honestly, I don't know? ANY poet in any tradition with 
> or without any degree who didn't have struggle.? The only people I 
> know who think academia is a hothouse are people who have never been 
> there.?
>
> Face it guys:? there isn't any escape from real life.? There aren't 
> any "hothouses".? Its a fiction.? A platitude.? A fantasy.? A false 
> division some people invent so that they can conveniently rail against 
> others, justify themselves, and indulge in self-pity for (boo hoo) 
> having to work.? A convenient excuse for failure:? It's all because of 
> the system!? I'm not a member of the cub!?
>
> Pfffft.? There is no "club", no "hothouse".? Going to Iowa does not 
> exempt you from having to work.? If you publish, nobody will care if 
> you don't have an MFA.? If you don't publish, nobody will care if you 
> do.? mOst people who go the MFA route are well aware of that.
>
> Life is suffering and nobody is exempt from struggle.? Even if you 
> look at poets who seem as though they were living in "hothouses" 
> (Dickinson, Browning, Shelley, et. al.) it still begs the question:? 
> what do you know about their inner lives?? Was Dickinson coddled?? Did 
> Browning or Shelley never suffer?? Did Gertrude Stein just sit around 
> having her nails done??
>
> Was James Merrill's life a hothouse daisy?? Some might think so, I 
> suppose, but I think that's envy talking.? Is your poetry better than 
> Merrill's because your heat just got turned off?? Give me a break.? 
> Think that having to work somehow makes you into John Clare?? Guess 
> again, darling.
>
>
> Suzanne Burns
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 4882 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/c2ddf52e/attachment.bin>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 12:22:41 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:22:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu><8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu>
	<fde503480609270831o1dd0a769k99459a6bc0cbcc02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021f01c6e251$2b9d3830$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

>I don't know. What do you think it is?
>
> best
> Roger

My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free verse but 
simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a prose piece -- the 
line-breaks are just an irritation.

Unless I'm missing something.

Robin

> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
>> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>>
>> love and love
>> cris
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>> Sweet Will
.....
>> --Philip Levine 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 12:42:10 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:42:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <aa458fec0609270708u6492ad12sefb4ddf2442cd7de@mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.43.0609270747580.21369@hymn01.u.washington.edu>
	<aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022e01c6e253$e42ff930$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

I'm finding what's taken as given not said on this thread as interesting as what is -- as, for instance, the discussion seems to present, both on the part of US teachers and students, an MFA as completely isolated from the rest of the academic community.

As a matter of interest, how many people on the list, who are full-time academics, teach *entirely on an MFA course, rather than part of an English Faculty as a whole?  I doubt that would be possible anywhere here, other than at Glasgow, Glamorgan and East Anglia.

Here the norm would be (probably) one or two optional undergraduate courses, and an MA bolted on to the end.  If it's there at all, which is still the exception.

(At Loughborough, where I taught Renaissance Literature and various other things for twenty years and which had one of the first undergraduate creative writing courses in the UK, ironically none of the published writers would touch it with a barge pole, going to confirm all my suspicions about the formal institutionalisation of creative writing in an academic context.  Too many UK English lecturers are failed writers, and dangerous as a result.

For my sins, I taught the course for one semister in the entire twenty years, when the guy who usually ran it was on an exchange visit to the States.  Still ashamed of that, but.  And at the time (though this was terminated with Extreme Prejudice when there was a particularly vicious series of incidents that even got written up in the national press here) we used to feed graduate students into the SUNY New York graduate program, in exchange for having SUNY students over for a year to take part in our undergraduate program.

Talking to some of them about their experiences in undergraduate Creative Writing Courses made my hair stand on end.  More than confirmed all my prejudices.  <g>

Robin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/87e2d6cf/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 12:49:24 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:49:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <2397.1159375764@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/f1f5c025/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 12:52:18 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:52:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Many Free Arguments
In-Reply-To: <022e01c6e253$e42ff930$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <C1401672.BB9D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'm with you.  One of the things "wrong" with the MFA system, in my view, is
that too  often it does sequester writers away from the rest of the lit
department, and also fails to demand much in the way of academic rigor.   In
fairness, there's so much condescension among many lit profs and PhD
candidates toward writers that many poets find this to be a small loss; but
institutionally it's all wrong, I feel.

Let me reiterate, though, that there is no single MFA model.  Programs vary
a great deal.  One reason I chose the one I did was that it offered
considerably more academic rigor than many.  I found my seminars on Yeats,
Williams, Milton, the Romantics, et al. to be much more crucial to my
development than I did my workshop experience, frankly.  And certainly they
were good prep for my teaching life, where my teaching load has not been
dominated by creative writing courses.


------------
On 9/27/06 11:42 AM, "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
wrote:

> I'm finding what's taken as given not said on this thread as interesting as
> what is -- as, for instance, the discussion seems to present, both on the part
> of US teachers and students, an MFA as completely isolated from the rest of
> the academic community.
>  
> As a matter of interest, how many people on the list, who are full-time
> academics, teach *entirely on an MFA course, rather than part of an English
> Faculty as a whole?  I doubt that would be possible anywhere here, other than
> at Glasgow, Glamorgan and East Anglia.
>  
> Here the norm would be (probably) one or two optional undergraduate courses,
> and an MA bolted on to the end.  If it's there at all, which is still the
> exception.
>  
> (At Loughborough, where I taught Renaissance Literature and various other
> things for twenty years and which had one of the first undergraduate creative
> writing courses in the UK, ironically none of the published writers would
> touch it with a barge pole, going to confirm all my suspicions about the
> formal institutionalisation of creative writing in an academic context.  Too
> many UK English lecturers are failed writers, and dangerous as a result.
>  
> For my sins, I taught the course for one semister in the entire twenty years,
> when the guy who usually ran it was on an exchange visit to the States.  Still
> ashamed of that, but.  And at the time (though this was terminated with
> Extreme Prejudice when there was a particularly vicious series of incidents
> that even got written up in the national press here) we used to feed graduate
> students into the SUNY New York graduate program, in exchange for having SUNY
> students over for a year to take part in our undergraduate program.
>  
> Talking to some of them about their experiences in undergraduate Creative
> Writing Courses made my hair stand on end.  More than confirmed all my
> prejudices.  <g>
>  
> Robin
> 
> 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/aeef0da2/attachment.html>

From cheekc at muohio.edu  Wed Sep 27 12:54:08 2006
From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:54:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <021f01c6e251$2b9d3830$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu><8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu>
	<fde503480609270831o1dd0a769k99459a6bc0cbcc02@mail.gmail.com>
	<021f01c6e251$2b9d3830$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <f245532973e69627186f724fbe149617@muohio.edu>

i completely agree Robin
so i wonder why it is presented as a poem

On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> I don't know. What do you think it is?
>>
>> best
>> Roger
>
> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free verse 
> but simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a prose piece 
> -- the line-breaks are just an irritation.
>
> Unless I'm missing something.
>
> Robin
>
>> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
>>> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>>>
>>> love and love
>>> cris
>>>
>>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> Sweet Will
> .....
>>> --Philip Levine
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 12:54:54 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suzanne
Message-ID: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Over at lucipo the same thing happened.  A few dicks got to being jerks.  A lot of the women left.  I hope this does not happen here.  Argue, fight, do what needs to be done, but don't take a different tone with a woman than you would with a man.  Play fair or go away.



Jim

 
 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/e7423199/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 13:18:17 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:18:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suzanne
In-Reply-To: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609271018l21711431ib7c693b5308f67d1@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, jim goar <jimgoar at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Over at lucipo the same thing happened. A few dicks got to being jerks. A
> lot of the women left. I hope this does not happen here. Argue, fight, do
> what needs to be done, but don't take a different tone with a woman than you
> would with a man. Play fair or go away.
>

I would agree that this is pretty basic. Its really sad to see how often
this happens though.  Its pretty neanderthal.

Thanks for your support though.  I just wanted to say that in general I
have found this to be a great list, and I don't have any worries about that
changing anytime soon.

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/2eba23dc/attachment.html>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 13:39:16 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:39:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suzanne
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609271018l21711431ib7c693b5308f67d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<aa458fec0609271018l21711431ib7c693b5308f67d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60609271039w1ef136re07a207d19b41d4a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Suzanne Burns <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/27/06, jim goar <jimgoar at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Over at lucipo the same thing happened. A few dicks got to being jerks. A
> lot of the women left. I hope this does not happen here. Argue, fight, do
> what needs to be done, but don't take a different tone with a woman than you
> would with a man. Play fair or go away.
>
> I would agree that this is pretty basic. Its really sad to see how often
> this happens though.  Its pretty neanderthal.
>
> Thanks for your support though.  I just wanted to say that in general I
> have found this to be a great list, and I don't have any worries about that
> changing anytime soon.
>

Thank you both for non-MFA posts.  By the way, "A few dicks got to
being jerks" has a certain je nais sez quack.  Have you heard of a few
jerks becoming dicks?  I learned this word-play at the
school-of-schools, where everyone wore white and lounged on the greens
surrounding duck ponds.

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 27 13:46:35 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:46:35 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dreams
References: <AD6F91B6-C867-41CB-A57A-5D816C9C8856@ripon.edu><8701275A-F9F2-4700-864C-B881EE6B1ECF@muohio.edu><fde503480609270831o1dd0a769k99459a6bc0cbcc02@mail.gmail.com><021f01c6e251$2b9d3830$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<f245532973e69627186f724fbe149617@muohio.edu>
Message-ID: <006f01c6e25c$e47a0b70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

just throwing this one in the air for you all: the other day my dear little
disabled friend Victoria had this dream. In it I was teaching her how to
drive.

I can't drive.


Best

Dave




From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 13:47:56 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:47:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270901r640dbd85w1eb53f4e5cf5d2ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>
	<aa458fec0609270901r640dbd85w1eb53f4e5cf5d2ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C8B074331E7F16-1780-11FB@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>

Damn, I hope my dept. chair doesn't see this and figure out that my double PhD from Harvard was really  doctored  from my art degree that I got from one of those matchbook cover colleges.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: queenmouse at gmail.com
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)





On 9/27/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote: 

I'm wondering how you managed to get it without preparing for it in any way, or working at developing the skills you would need for it. 


Its easy.  Just photocopy someone else's degree, white out their name and put in yours.  Then pay some friends to create fake letterhead for the references, and hope that six months go by before anyone figures it out. 

Cake!

Suzanne


 



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/576f12c9/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 13:48:26 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:48:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suzanne
In-Reply-To: <648208b60609271039w1ef136re07a207d19b41d4a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<aa458fec0609271018l21711431ib7c693b5308f67d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<648208b60609271039w1ef136re07a207d19b41d4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609271048w2dc1061fia219ca5e478631a1@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, James Cervantes <cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you both for non-MFA posts.  By the way, "A few dicks got to
> being jerks" has a certain je nais sez quack.  Have you heard of a few
> jerks becoming dicks?



Well, jerks are awfully insecure about their....

Oh God, please shut me up.

I like "je nais sez quack" btw.

Muuwwaaah,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/800f71cc/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 13:50:28 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:50:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Many Free Arguments
In-Reply-To: <C1401672.BB9D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C8B0748D8A687B-1780-123D@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>

the MFA program I went to in Arkansas required 15 hours of pre-twentieth century lit as well as making us spend serious time learning the forms. Personally I think a more rogorous academic component wouldhelp a lot of programs. 

Well, abck to grading. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:52 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Many Free Arguments


I'm with you.  One of the things "wrong" with the MFA system, in my view, is that too  often it does sequester writers away from the rest of the lit department, and also fails to demand much in the way of academic rigor.   In fairness, there's so much condescension among many lit profs and PhD candidates toward writers that many poets find this to be a small loss; but institutionally it's all wrong, I feel.

Let me reiterate, though, that there is no single MFA model.  Programs vary a great deal.  One reason I chose the one I did was that it offered considerably more academic rigor than many.  I found my seminars on Yeats, Williams, Milton, the Romantics, et al. to be much more crucial to my development than I did my workshop experience, frankly.  And certainly they were good prep for my teaching life, where my teaching load has not been dominated by creative writing courses.


------------
On 9/27/06 11:42 AM, "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:


I'm finding what's taken as given not said on this thread as interesting as what is -- as, for instance, the discussion seems to present, both on the part of US teachers and students, an MFA as completely isolated from the rest of the academic community.
 
As a matter of interest, how many people on the list, who are full-time academics, teach *entirely on an MFA course, rather than part of an English Faculty as a whole?  I doubt that would be possible anywhere here, other than at Glasgow, Glamorgan and East Anglia.
 
Here the norm would be (probably) one or two optional undergraduate courses, and an MA bolted on to the end.  If it's there at all, which is still the exception.
 
(At Loughborough, where I taught Renaissance Literature and various other things for twenty years and which had one of the first undergraduate creative writing courses in the UK, ironically none of the published writers would touch it with a barge pole, going to confirm all my suspicions about the formal institutionalisation of creative writing in an academic context.  Too many UK English lecturers are failed writers, and dangerous as a result.
 
For my sins, I taught the course for one semister in the entire twenty years, when the guy who usually ran it was on an exchange visit to the States.  Still ashamed of that, but.  And at the time (though this was terminated with Extreme Prejudice when there was a particularly vicious series of incidents that even got written up in the national press here) we used to feed graduate students into the SUNY New York graduate program, in exchange for having SUNY students over for a year to take part in our undergraduate program.
 
Talking to some of them about their experiences in undergraduate Creative Writing Courses made my hair stand on end.  More than confirmed all my prejudices.  <g>
 
Robin





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/842d7aca/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 14:02:34 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:02:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome 
Message-ID: <bf4.5abe392.324c16ba@aol.com>

I'm happy to see some new participants on the list. This list is  
unmoderated...
but not absentee managed...I try to keep tabs on things/threads.
 
It's been many, many months since I've had to play list police...&  I like
it that way. Keep the arguments rigorous...but let's talk to
one another without slathering on the of sarcasm and acrimony.
 
 
Jim Finnegan
List Manager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/4e89c583/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:12:35 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:12:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <8C8B074331E7F16-1780-11FB@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>
References: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>
	<aa458fec0609270901r640dbd85w1eb53f4e5cf5d2ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C8B074331E7F16-1780-11FB@FWM-D44.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609271112o2d726809je2e4d12c98b4979a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Damn, I hope my dept. chair doesn't see this and figure out that my double
> PhD from Harvard was really  doctored  from my art degree that I got from
> one of those matchbook cover colleges.
>



Hey, if you took yourmatchbook cover course with Ray Johnson, I'd hire you!
:-)

Seriously, this is a problem for schools abroad who want to hire English
teachers.  Hate to say it, but a lot of the  teachers who make their living
jumping from country to country have very, very dubious credentials, and a
lot of the smaller schools in far flung places are not so great at checking
credentials. As a result, you get some pretty dubious people pursuing those
jobs.

For example, there once was a time when anyone who spoke English could get a
job teaching English in Japan.  Then Japan became glutted with extremely
undesirable westerners (who would often vanish mid-semester to go off on an
adventure or sell drugs)  and they wised up and began to require a lot of
documentation or worked only through agencies. In many cases, schools will
even require that teachers put down a deposit that will only be refunded
once they finished their contracts.  A lot of other developing countries are
beginning to wise up in exactly this way-- John Mark Karr, the guy that was
extradited from Thailand because he was fantasizing about being the killer
of JonBenet Ramsey, is extreme, but not an unusual example of the problem.

I taught for two years in Turkish Kurdistan but decided against pursuing a
career as a foreign teacher mainly because I got tired of the slacker
factor-- teachers who gravitated toward  Turkey because they could make
their meager but easy living without having to work hard, or even at all.
Yuck. I came to the conclusion that if you want to teach abroad the way to
do it is through a really well-established program such as Fulbright, USIS,
or Japan's JET program.  Its a better experience, the credentials actually
mean something, and your co-workers won't be taken away in handcuffs.  Whoo
hoo.

Suzanne


-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what
your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and
you have style."

--Quentin Crisp
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/96eee1e7/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:33:47 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:33:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bound copies
In-Reply-To: <c37.3bf2c80.324aee01@aol.com>
References: <c37.3bf2c80.324aee01@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609271133p2017cf6bqfbb4c81dccd74d3@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/06, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  In a message dated 9/26/2006 3:35:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tad at opus40.org writes:
>
> You can tell that I don't enter competitions very often. Submit three
> bound copies...what the fuck is a bound copy?
>
>  A big black binder clip...would be my answer.
>

The main thing is that they don't want the pages to get lost or jumbled up.
The judges want to be able to toss the manuscripts into their backseats with
the family dog, two hyper children, and several sacks of groceries and not
have to worry about having to dig pages out from behind the cushions later.


Been there done that,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/332653cc/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 27 14:34:35 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:34:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <c5f.25bfa1c.324bb314@aol.com>
Message-ID: <017c01c6e263$953e0ff0$c5e83652@ANNY>

That's something I would call "a life"!
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:57 PM




  I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue about teh valididty of the MFA.

  It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid degree, don't get one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is worthwhile, don't read it.

  While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced, got arrested three times, flirted with serious financial disaster, worked in a car wash, poured concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse stuff. I also wrote a lot of poems, lerned something about how to teach and began to learn something about my craft.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/8a8d61d7/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 14:38:34 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:38:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
Message-ID: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>

 
 
i  completely agree Robin
so i wonder why it is presented as a poem

On  27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> I don't know.  What do you think it is?
>>
>> best
>>  Roger
>
> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or  lax free verse 
> but simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked  better *as a prose piece 
> -- the line-breaks are just an  irritation.
>
> Unless I'm missing something.
>
>  Robin
>
>> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu>  wrote:
>>> what's the function of the line break in this  poem?



I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
(like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of 
many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
merely by the habit of the poet.
 
The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the 
free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and 
handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very  differently
with one's ouevre. 
 
What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak 
in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck, 
Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 
 
Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important  arbitrary
limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to  the poem 
if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end 
of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in 
contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
complement somewhere in the prior passage or 
what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
 
Finnegan
 
 

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/dfaa58d9/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 15:00:17 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:00:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026b01c6e267$32d1b1b0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>


  I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
  or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
  of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
  (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
  important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of 
  many poems by a particular poet. [etc.]

  All very well, but there should, surely, be some connection between the line-endings and the way the poem is to be spoken?  If there was one, in this case, I couldn't see it.

  It went beyond simply arbitrary line endings to the line-breaks being positively intrusive.

  Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
  on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in 
  contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
  How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?

  I think Rosemary Huismans in The written poem deals with this to a degree.  Also, wasn't there a discussion at one point on the list -- I seem to remember Bob Grumman being involved -- over cases where poets broke lines in the middle of words?  (A technique used by D.M.Black before Bob reinvinted it.  <g>)

  Robin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/e5992d01/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 15:07:10 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:07:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com><C13FFDB6.BB70%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0609270825l4580887di614389e89e385362@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <029f01c6e268$2d36cc80$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

Thank you. :-)  Never fear, I'm not going anywhere. It would take much more than garden variety school boy sexist crap to drive me away.  

Suzanne

  WTG, Suzanne!  Good on you, cobber.

              :-)))))

  Robin the Androgyne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/6e793f62/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 15:09:37 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:09:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <C13EB713.BA80%grahamd@ripon.edu><Pine.LNX.4.43.0609260941290.16297@hur11.myuw.net><aa458fec0609261152pc80b5cfh55ce21eb0fd177ce@mail.gmail.com><007a01c6e1a2$a44c6760$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<00c401c6e245$9d27f460$b9089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <02a001c6e268$7d0036c0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

>I have to jump in here - Helen Ruggieri,  MFA.  We're making an argument 
>about who has one and who hasn't

        Just to say that I wish I had said what you say below, Helen, except 
you put it better than I could have done.  I completely agree.

                            Robin

> The problem with the MFA is that it promotes the Academy (as a corollary 
> think of the French Academy that held the exhibits and gave out the prizes 
> etc. and kept the Impressionists out).  That's the problem - the 
> institutionalization of the process.  Who sits on the juries, who gives 
> out the money - who picks the "winners"
> and who writes in the mode.
>
> The argument is about the heiarchy - and it's easy for someone on the 
> outside to say hey, I'll go join up for this program and become one of the 
> haves.  But now we're overburdened with haves who write in the mode.
>
> Ovewrsupply, underdemand.
> Can't remember intro to economics but I don't think that's good. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 15:17:49 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:17:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <02b201c6e269$a6e00320$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>

> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's 
> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and 
> they dance with phonological stress.

Neatly put!  I'm glad I'm not the only person who insists on considering 
dipodics.

But the "only stressed/unstressed" point would apply to the various 
varieties of stress metres as well as syllable accent metres, nah?

Humpty Dumpty 




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 15:26:46 2006
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:26:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
Message-ID: <535.81f6380.324c2a76@aol.com>

 
I'm saying this as outside observer and with no  firsthand experience
of my own to relate, but what has occurred from time to time 
over here is that the English Dept. drove a wedge between itself
and the Creative Writing Program, or vice versa. 
Sometimes blame for the split may have been more or 
less on the head of one group or other. There
all kinds of possibly divisive factors....natural jealousies
and suspicions, pay scale and course load issues, issues
of academic rigor vs. creative freedom, issues of grading 
standards, etc. Scholars and creative types can be harmonious
 
When someone talks today of MFA in Creative Writing, it's not
one pedagogical approach to teaching writing they're talking about.
The first MFA programs were natural outgrowths of English Depts.
What has ccurred with the proliferation of MFA Creative Writing  programs 
is that more and more are really akin to 'Art Schools'. Independent or 
semi-autonomous schools formed by artists for artists, and only nominally 
associated with the academic institution whose facilities they may  use. 
Many are now low-residency...something like corresponce schools, 
utilizing internet technology,often with 2 short residency period,  typically 
each a week long. Some schools now emphasize a practical aspect
to the curriculum: book publishing; design & marketing; editorial  work.
So it's really a variety of approaches and experiences
that fall under the rubric of an 'MFA in Poetry/Creative Writing'.
Finnegan
 
 
In a message dated 9/27/2006 12:43:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:

I'm finding what's taken as given not said on  this thread as interesting as 
what is -- as, for instance, the discussion  seems to present, both on the 
part of US teachers and students, an MFA as  completely isolated from the rest of 
the academic community.
 
As a matter of interest, how many people on the  list, who are full-time 
academics, teach *entirely on an MFA course,  rather than part of an English 
Faculty as a whole?  I doubt that would be  possible anywhere here, other than at 
Glasgow, Glamorgan and East  Anglia.
 
Here the norm would be (probably) one or two  optional undergraduate courses, 
and an MA bolted on to the end.  If it's  there at all, which is still the 
exception.
 
(At Loughborough, where I taught Renaissance  Literature and various other 
things for twenty years and which had one of the  first undergraduate creative 
writing courses in the UK, ironically none of the  published writers would 
touch it with a barge pole, going to confirm all my  suspicions about the formal 
institutionalisation of creative writing in an  academic context.  Too many UK 
English lecturers are failed writers, and  dangerous as a result.
 
For my sins, I taught the course for one  semister in the entire twenty 
years, when the guy who usually ran it was on an  exchange visit to the States.  
Still ashamed of that, but.  And at  the time (though this was terminated with 
Extreme Prejudice when there was a  particularly vicious series of incidents 
that even got written up in the  national press here) we used to feed graduate 
students into the SUNY New York  graduate program, in exchange for having SUNY 
students over for a year to take  part in our undergraduate program.
 
Talking to some of them about their experiences  in undergraduate Creative 
Writing Courses made my hair stand on end.   More than confirmed all my 
prejudices.  <g>
 



 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/993861a4/attachment.html>

From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Wed Sep 27 15:30:51 2006
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:30:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bound copies
Message-ID: <3104.1159385451@opus40.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/ba069587/attachment.html>

From queenmouse at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 15:44:23 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:44:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bound copies
In-Reply-To: <3104.1159385451@opus40.org>
References: <3104.1159385451@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609271244m827407ep8255e5e8d4c5923c@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:

>
> And they're probably not living in the same world as their dogs, which is
> why dogs chew up the manuscripts. I hope the dog realizes that I don't
> actually have an MFA.


My own dog likes to chew on Yannis Ritsos, Odysseus Elytis, and Philip
Dick.

And my Frye boots. Bad dog.

Seriously.  backseats are dangerous places.

Suzanne


-- 
"Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what
your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and
you have style."

--Quentin Crisp
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/d4d65f36/attachment.html>

From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Sep 27 16:09:40 2006
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:09:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <02b201c6e269$a6e00320$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<02b201c6e269$a6e00320$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <2318727.1159387780308.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 03:22PM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:

>From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's 
>> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and 
>> they dance with phonological stress.
>
>Neatly put!  I'm glad I'm not the only person who insists on considering 
>dipodics.
>
>But the "only stressed/unstressed" point would apply to the various 
>varieties of stress metres as well as syllable accent metres, nah?
>
>Humpty Dumpty 
>

You're right, of course. I get a little blinkered sometimes.



-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Sep 27 16:18:17 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:18:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong
Message-ID: <02cf01c6e272$12301d10$c5e83652@ANNY>

I am receiving all the messages from New Poetry in tripple format, that is : three for one. I am the only one?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/7fd8fc3e/attachment.html>

From millb at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 16:33:24 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:33:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C8B08B508AED5F-1768-1AAF@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>

 
FYI
 
Used copies of The Bread of Time is at Amazon for fifty cents (plus the $3 shipping). Still an excellent deal.  Thanks, David, for the reference.
 
Mill
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes


I guess "MFA" is just one of those red-flag words by now, like "Iowa," that
inflame most discussions before they can get off the ground.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing some conversation about what's wrong with
the MFA system, and what's right about it--preferably from folks who've been
through it and can speak to concerns "on the ground," as they say.

Plenty was wrong with the program I attended, 28 years ago, and I'll happily
regale anyone with war stories without much provocation.  Still, for a
variety of reasons I'm very glad I went.

But one fact often neglected by the diatribists is the extremely wide range
of kinds & quality of program out there.  Not to mention the many reasons
why someone might choose to attend, the array of things one can "do" with
the degree, and so on.

For a bracing account of some real serious teaching in the MFA context, I
recommend Philip Levine's chapter in his memoir on the subject of Lowell &
Berryman at Iowa.  He has little use for Lowell, but Berryman was a wizard
of a teacher.  Very inspiring stuff.  And pretty amazing classmates Levine
had, too, including Snodgrass, Justice, and Jane Cooper.

Levine's book, if you haven't read it, is very good.  Title is *The Bread of
Time*.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/a5323015/attachment.html>

From millb at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 17:41:59 2006
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:41:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <8C8B08B508AED5F-1768-1AAF@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
References: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<8C8B08B508AED5F-1768-1AAF@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8C8B094E596A8EC-184-2D6@mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com>

What an idiot I am, used copies ARE at Amazon for fifty cents! 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: millb at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MFA woes


 
FYI
 
Used copies of The Bread of Time is at Amazon for fifty cents (plus the $3 shipping). Still an excellent deal.  Thanks, David, for the reference.
 
Mill
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA woes


I guess "MFA" is just one of those red-flag words by now, like "Iowa," that
inflame most discussions before they can get off the ground.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing some conversation about what's wrong with
the MFA system, and what's right about it--preferably from folks who've been
through it and can speak to concerns "on the ground," as they say.

Plenty was wrong with the program I attended, 28 years ago, and I'll happily
regale anyone with war stories without much provocation.  Still, for a
variety of reasons I'm very glad I went.

But one fact often neglected by the diatribists is the extremely wide range
of kinds & quality of program out there.  Not to mention the many reasons
why someone might choose to attend, the array of things one can "do" with
the degree, and so on.

For a bracing account of some real serious teaching in the MFA context, I
recommend Philip Levine's chapter in his memoir on the subject of Lowell &
Berryman at Iowa.  He has little use for Lowell, but Berryman was a wizard
of a teacher.  Very inspiring stuff.  And pretty amazing classmates Levine
had, too, including Snodgrass, Justice, and Jane Cooper.

Levine's book, if you haven't read it, is very good.  Title is *The Bread of
Time*.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/e092f9d4/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 27 18:13:32 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:13:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong
References: <02cf01c6e272$12301d10$c5e83652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <004601c6e282$2cb9ae70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Nope, Anny, your'e not. I thought seeing double was a result of my weakness, now I realise seeing triple has nothing whatsoever to do with my failings.

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong


  I am receiving all the messages from New Poetry in tripple format, that is : three for one. I am the only one?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/43d0f4b3/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:12:37 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270754u6d12994cw2a9571c7140a613f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271812370.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

well, good, i won't call you suzy if you don't call me darling, because quite frankly, those who dish out the condescension should be prepared to get it back in kind. don't read sexism where there may just be some one who doesn't like being talked down to by pompous idiots like you. as for taking me seriously, these remarks I've made have been nothing if not off the cuff, so it's about time you stopped taking them so seriously.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns wrote:

> On 9/27/06, jfq at myuw.net <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Seriously though Suzy, you don't mind if I call you Suzy, do you sugar?
>
>
>
> Actually I do mind very much.  I think you are acting like quite the
> asshole, and I do have a problem with your sexist tone as well as your
> inability to hear anything other than your own voice.  If you cannot show
> better respect for others on the list, be prepared to be disregarded.
>
> Sorry, but this kind crap pretty much  ends any possibility of taking you
> seriously.
>
> Suzanne
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:14:46 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:14:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <00c401c6e245$9d27f460$b9089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271814460.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>


well said.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> I have to jump in here - Helen Ruggieri,  MFA.  We're making an argument about 
> who has one and who hasn't
>
> The problem with the MFA is that it promotes the Academy (as a corollary think 
> of the French Academy that held the exhibits and gave out the prizes etc. and 
> kept the Impressionists out).  That's the problem - the institutionalization of 
> the process.  Who sits on the juries, who gives out the money - who picks the 
> "winners"
> and who writes in the mode.
>
> The argument is about the heiarchy - and it's easy for someone on the outside 
> to say hey, I'll go join up for this program and become one of the haves.  But 
> now we're overburdened with haves who write in the mode.
>
> Ovewrsupply, underdemand.
> Can't remember intro to economics but I don't think that's good.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>
>
>> What Suzanne said. And eloquently.
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" 
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
>> 
>> 
>>> <I>Among other things. I view it as a poet's duty to live in the world
>>> that non-poets live in and MFAs are the opposite of doing that.</I>
>>> 
>>> Part of the problem with your argument is that you are setting up as a
>>> false class division which does not exists.
>>> 
>>> Come on.
>>> 
>>> What makes you so certain that people who have academic degrees don't
>>> "live in the world" that non-poets live in?  I don't know nwhat
>>> rarified academy you attended, but they really aren't like that. How
>>> are is studying in an MFA program the opposite of living in the world?
>>> 
>>> School is no more or less "the real world" than anything else, and
>>> almost every writer I have ever known, in or out of the academy, has
>>> had to work.  Teaching, editing, technical writing, yes, this is the
>>> fun stuff... but also doing laundry, scrubbing floors, waiting tables,
>>> having children, fixing cars, paying taxes, de-worming cats, shaving
>>> pigs, paying debts, painting houses, selling cosmetics, dancing for
>>> bachelor parties, selling thermopane windows over the phone-- you name
>>> it.  Geez, the strangest job I ever had (this was after I got my MFA)
>>> was dubbing Japanese anime porn flicks into English-- don't know that
>>> I would call that a "real world" job exactly, but damn, it was
>>> interesting, it was a real product that sold for real money, and gave
>>> me plenty of fodder for writing.
>>> 
>>> Honestly, I don't know anyone who is exempt from living in the real
>>> world.  If you really think enrolling into an MFA program is going to
>>> mean occupying some sort of rosey cradle, I think you are in for a
>>> rude awakening.
>>> 
>>> Suzanne
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate 
> anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from 
> www.choicemailfree.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:27:25 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:27:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason, but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."

i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter: you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my time.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:

> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>
> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2 years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year), played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying, during five of which he didn't know who I was.
>
> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>
> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and they dance with phonological stress.
>
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>>
>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>
>>>
>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>>
>>>
>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:39:03 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <2061.1159371842@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271839030.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

it wasn't at all a red herring, it was taken out of context by a bunch of professors with hair triggers for being offended. When I made the original comment I was responding directly to the assertion that spending a couple of years without having to work and just concentrating on craft was a good thing. I don't think it is. I think it's better to work on one's craft in the milieu of one's life, whatever that milieu might be, rather than cloistering oneself in a strange environment and focussing on the kinds of things, in particular, that get focussed on in creative writing workshops.

I'm really sorry now that the way I said that got misinterpretted, and i'm also sorry that my inability to not poke academics with a pointy stick when presented with the opportunity got in the way of my attempting to clarify what I meant. But that's a long and well established character flaw of mine. Academic life is a privilege and something I'm fully capable of admitting I'm a little bit jealous of, and so yes, I think it's funny how sensitive the professors are to the criticism that "they don't do real work." Of course they do. And it's important work that has an important social value. At the same time, i think professors should recognize the privileged position they've been granted in our culture and be thick skinned enough to take the occasional ribbing about what lazy time-servers they are (to borrow a pejorative from Richard Rorty about his profession) from snot nosed kids like me. 
I love academia. If I didn't I wouldn't have gone back for a second bachelors degree after I got my first one. But it does at times take itself too seriously, as I think this thread illustrates.



On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:

> 
> So, it turns out that everything you said about being removed from the
> world of full time work was essentially a red herring, Emily Dickinson
> doesn't count, because although she was removed from the world of
> fulltime work, she wasn't specifically in an MFA program.
> 
> I'm not a hundred percent convinced that your work is real in a way that
> no one else's here is; I haven't seen any evidence of that yet. Sarcasm
> is not evidence. But given that you find your job interesting and
> challenging, I'm wondering how you managed to get it without preparing
> for it in any way, or working at developing the skills you would need for
> it. i'm wondering how many, outside of the hothouse world of a college or
> university education, would agree with you that in the real world,
> household chores and parenting don't count for anything.
> 
> 
> On Wed Sep 27 10:47 , jfq at myuw.net sent:
> 
> 
>       I've really said everything I have to say on this subject and
>       in the absence of anything better than "hey you're wrong.
>       dick." from those who disagree with me, i feel more than
>       vindicated in my original statement that MFAs are bad
>       preparation for anything. They're obviously bad preparation
>       for learning how to make a reasoned and supported argument. I
>       suppose that's why it's "Creative" Writing though. Leave all
>       that expository evidencey stuff to the MAs, your art is FINE.
> 
>       Seriously though Suzy, you don't mind if I call you Suzy, do
>       you sugar? Weren't you the one who started all this by
>       pointing out that getting an MFA was a chance to "Take
>       writing seriously" and "not have to work and just concentrate
>       on craft?" or was that someone else? Because you can't have
>       it both ways, either being in an MFA program is a hothouse or
>       it isn't.
> 
>       And finally, when somebody shows me a facsimile of Emily
>       Dickinson's MFA Certificate from Mt Holyoke, then I'll start
>       taking that analogy seriously. Until then, whatever, I'm
>       great, brilliant, talented and funny and you're all being
>       defensive over something stupid. Have a nice day.
> 
>       On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns wrote:
> 
>       > On 9/27/06, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>
>       >> I have no more dead horses to beat. Quick! Let's argue
>       about teh valididty
>       >> of the MFA.
>       >>
>       >> It's real simple. If you don't think hte MFA is a valid
>       degree, don't get
>       >> one. If you don't think a certain kind of poem is
>       worthwhile, don't read it.
>       >>
>       >> While I was gettiing my MFA, I got married and divorced,
>       got arrested
>       >> three times, flirted with serious financial disaster,
>       worked in a car wash,
>       >> poured concrete and worked construction. hardly hothouse
>       stuff. I also wrote
>       >> a lot of poems, lerned something about how to teach and
>       began to learn
>       >> something about my craft.
>       >>
>       >
>       >
>       > Well spoken. Honestly, I don't know ANY poet in any
>       tradition with or
>       > without any degree who didn't have struggle. The only
>       people I know who
>       > think academia is a hothouse are people who have never been
>       there.
>       >
>       > Face it guys: there isn't any escape from real life. There
>       aren't any
>       > "hothouses". Its a fiction. A platitude. A fantasy. A false
>       division
>       > some people invent so that they can conveniently rail
>       against others,
>       > justify themselves, and indulge in self-pity for (boo hoo)
>       having to work.
>       > A convenient excuse for failure: It's all because of the
>       system! I'm not a
>       > member of the cub!
>       >
>       > Pfffft. There is no "club", no "hothouse". Going to Iowa
>       does not exempt
>       > you from having to work. If you publish, nobody will care
>       if you don't have
>       > an MFA. If you don't publish, nobody will care if you do.
>       mOst people who
>       > go the MFA route are well aware of that.
>       >
>       > Life is suffering and nobody is exempt from struggle. Even
>       if you look at
>       > poets who seem as though they were living in "hothouses"
>       (Dickinson,
>       > Browning, Shelley, et. al.) it still begs the question:
>       what do you know
>       > about their inner lives? Was Dickinson coddled? Did
>       Browning or Shelley
>       > never suffer? Did Gertrude Stein just sit around having her
>       nails done?
>       >
>       > Was James Merrill's life a hothouse daisy? Some might think
>       so, I suppose,
>       > but I think that's envy talking. Is your poetry better than
>       Merrill's
>       > because your heat just got turned off? Give me a break.
>       Think that having
>       > to work somehow makes you into John Clare? Guess again,
>       darling.
>       >
>       >
>       > Suzanne Burns
>       >
> 
> 
>       _______________________________________________
>       New-Poetry mailing list
>       New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>       http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:47:51 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sestinas was: MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <d1c74efd0609270905m75b53a7ay15ec3371f2b51d93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271847510.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

If you haven't read it, Jim and Dave Defeat the Masked Man from soft skull press, which is a book of kinda New York School-y sestinas by David Lehman and some guy named Jim something or other that slips my mind at the moment, is very good and about as far from gioia and xj kennedy and their ilk as you can get. which just goes to show there isn't really much about formalism in the new formalism.

i personally have valorized lyricism in the various unpublished manifestoes of the literary movement i've founded: post-contemporary mannerism. It's entirely possible that you're a post-contemporary mannerist without yet realizing it karen, and as such, I salute you--Baby eater or no.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, karen wrote:

> David, you can always regale me.....  And although you know which
> program I'm attending, since I'm mostly a lurker on this list, I'd
> rather not say right now where I'm an MFA candidate.
>
> Ooops!  I said it.  Here let me try again....  I'm an MFA candidate!
> I write poems and whatnot at a university somewhere in the northeast
> sector of the United States.
>
> And yes, there's plenty wrong with these programs.  How valuable the
> experience can be depends on who you are going in and how you protect
> yourself and your writing from the criticisms and aesthetic
> evaluations of others.  Not to mention letting movements influence
> your writing so much that you end sounding like everyone else in Fence
> or Octopus.  Not that there aren't loads of great poems in those
> reviews, but sometimes the snarkiness and the surreal found in much of
> the work published there starts to overwhelm me.
>
> Then again, I tend to write in a more compressed, possibly even lyric
> narrative sort of way.  God forbid I write a sestina or it might be
> the last straw. Other grad students would probably feel the need to
> thrown me straight over into the Dana Gioia camp.
>
> Ah...see I'm doing it.  Lumping others in their groups to make myself
> feel seperate.  Imagining what groups my fellow students have assigned
> me.
>
> It's enough to strip poetry of all its magic, this way of thinking
> Don't you agree?  But in a nutshell, that's what can be wrong with MFA
> programs.
>
> The other issue is that many of the students are coming straight out
> of undergrad programs.  Blech!  No life experience whatsoever.  And
> they think they can write, but (and I'm going out on a limb here), I
> disagree.
>
> Others are sleeping their way to the top with the rising stars of the
> poetry world.  Some are convnced that the more they act like snarky,
> ice-cube hipsters, the more important and intelligent they will seem.
>
> So, that's all that I see wrong.  Here's why I'm still doing it.
> Time.  Yes, time to write.  Learning how, after 15 years in the work
> force, to take a lot of unstructured time and mold that into a writing
> schedule.  Also, three or so years to work on a book.  It's good to
> have material going into the program to begin such a venture as you'll
> look back on it later and wish that's one of the things you had done.
> Or so I assume.
>
> Exposure to interesting poets on the faculty.  This can either go
> terribly wrong, or turn out to be a rewarding relationship.  I've
> heard horror stories about Walcott and Boston U. for instance.  Glad I
> didn't go there.  My school has nice famous poets who really work hard
> to support our writing endeavors.  They seem to enjoy what they do.
> That's important.  Other programs have faculty that pit students
> against one another, and some who ignore them altogether.
>
> Funding is another great thing.  I found a college that is paying my
> tuition and giving me a nice stipend per month in exchange for my
> teaching one class a semester.  And I love to teach.  And having been
> a web programmer for many years (still am at times), teaching is a
> nice skill to have in addition.  A new skill.
>
> Location.  I got to relocate to a beautiful place.  A place full of
> writers and artists and peace and quiet.  It helps inspire me.
>
> Well, that's all for now.  Oh by the way, I'm Karen.  I guess you can
> see that from my email name.  Nice to meet you all.  And I know David
> here from another list serve I've been on for many years.
>
> Over and out,
>
> k
>
>
>
> On 9/27/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>> I guess "MFA" is just one of those red-flag words by now, like "Iowa," that
>> inflame most discussions before they can get off the ground.
>> 
>> Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing some conversation about what's wrong with
>> the MFA system, and what's right about it--preferably from folks who've been
>> through it and can speak to concerns "on the ground," as they say.
>> 
>> Plenty was wrong with the program I attended, 28 years ago, and I'll happily
>> regale anyone with war stories without much provocation.  Still, for a
>> variety of reasons I'm very glad I went.
>> 
>> But one fact often neglected by the diatribists is the extremely wide range
>> of kinds & quality of program out there.  Not to mention the many reasons
>> why someone might choose to attend, the array of things one can "do" with
>> the degree, and so on.
>> 
>> For a bracing account of some real serious teaching in the MFA context, I
>> recommend Philip Levine's chapter in his memoir on the subject of Lowell &
>> Berryman at Iowa.  He has little use for Lowell, but Berryman was a wizard
>> of a teacher.  Very inspiring stuff.  And pretty amazing classmates Levine
>> had, too, including Snodgrass, Justice, and Jane Cooper.
>> 
>> Levine's book, if you haven't read it, is very good.  Title is *The Bread of
>> Time*.
>> 
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 21:49:49 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0609270901r640dbd85w1eb53f4e5cf5d2ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271849490.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

bah. that's too much work. It's much easier to just change your name to someone else who you know has a good job and then copy their resume and references.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Suzanne Burns wrote:

> On 9/27/06, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I'm wondering how you managed to get it without preparing for it in any
>> way, or working at developing the skills you would need for it.
>
>
>
> Its easy.  Just photocopy someone else's degree, white out their name and
> put in yours.  Then pay some friends to create fake letterhead for the
> references, and hope that six months go by before anyone figures it out.
>
> Cake!
>
> Suzanne
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 22:02:45 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <f245532973e69627186f724fbe149617@muohio.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>


because it's phil levine
and phil levine is
an important poet
so everything he writes
has to be poetry
or he'll lose his parking space

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, cris cheek wrote:

> i completely agree Robin
> so i wonder why it is presented as a poem
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>>> I don't know. What do you think it is?
>>> 
>>> best
>>> Roger
>> 
>> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free verse but 
>> simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a prose piece -- the 
>> line-breaks are just an irritation.
>> 
>> Unless I'm missing something.
>> 
>> Robin
>> 
>>> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
>>>> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>>>> 
>>>> love and love
>>>> cris
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sweet Will
>> .....
>>>> --Philip Levine
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 22:10:03 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:10:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suzanne
In-Reply-To: <20060927165454.10278.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271910030.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

Jimmy, sugar-pie, I would never do such a thing and I'm a little bit hurt that my condescending back to suzanne was assumed to be a gender thing when it was in fact an equal opportunity to flame to pay back in kind the tone i'd been addressed with.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, jim goar wrote:

> Over at lucipo the same thing happened.  A few dicks got to being jerks.  A lot of the women left.  I hope this does not happen here.  Argue, fight, do what needs to be done, but don't take a different tone with a woman than you would with a man.  Play fair or go away.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 22:17:45 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:17:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <d1c74efd0609270905m75b53a7ay15ec3371f2b51d93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<d1c74efd0609270905m75b53a7ay15ec3371f2b51d93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB205DBD-1D82-4937-91B8-EFE9627D24FD@ripon.edu>

Hi, Karen!  I promise not to out you about what program you're in. . . .

In any case, I suspect my own MFA experience was not necessarily  
typical.  As I said, I didn't find the workshops themselves to be of  
great value, though some of the post-workshop bar crawls were most  
illuminating.  I mean that quite seriously.  As everyone notes about  
MFA programs, one of the biggest benefits is the chance to hang out  
with folks who share your weird obsession.  I made some fast  
friends.  At my program, that definitely was not the faculty, who,  
with an exception or two, tended to keep their distance.  And, again  
with a couple exceptions, they did not make much effort to actually  
teach anything.  They heard the work read aloud once in workshop,  
made a few desultory remarks, and refereed the students' discussion a  
bit.  Really lazy teaching, for the most part.   No assignments, no  
serious critiques, not much but the occasional stray valuable  
comment.  I don't think I ever received any written feedback from  
anyone but my thesis advisor, who was rare in the amount of line-by- 
line critique offered.  It *was* valuable, of course, to have to meet  
regular deadlines, produce a "publishable" manuscript, write the  
intro to that & defend it, etc.

As I've also said whenever this topic comes up, programs differ  
greatly.  As far as I could tell, virtually no serious networking and  
such happened at ours.  Profs did not publish or award prizes to  
favorite students.  We seldom had visiting poets from elsewhere, even  
for a reading.  It's true that I'm uncommonly inept at schmoozing &  
networking, and so maybe more went on than I was aware of.  But the  
tone of the place was not very competitive, as I've heard many  
programs are.

I'm also uncommonly ornery, and had been through quite a few  
workshops--in school & out--by the time I arrived at grad school.  So  
being influenced by prevailing styles wasn't so much of a problem--I  
was trying like hell to be influenced by Whitman, Yeats and  
Dickinson, not Bly, Ginsberg, or Levertov!  The workshops were  
disappointing, but, for me at least, the academic course work was  
just my cup of tea.  I learned a lot.  And, wearing my other hat, I  
graded a lot of freshman essays, and learned a good deal about how to  
teach.

By the way, at least in my time in the MFA program, there was  
absolutely no prevailing school style--we had rabid formalists, a  
diehard surrealist or two, a Lowellian confessionalist, etc. on the  
staff in my years there.  One future Pulitzer winner was known to  
take a pretty dim view of students who wrote like him, in fact.  One  
workshop prof practically salivated over sestinas; another gave a big  
ho-hum.


On Sep 27, 2006, at 11:05 AM, karen wrote:

> David, you can always regale me.....  And although you know which
> program I'm attending, since I'm mostly a lurker on this list, I'd
> rather not say right now where I'm an MFA candidate.
>
> Ooops!  I said it.  Here let me try again....  I'm an MFA candidate!
> I write poems and whatnot at a university somewhere in the northeast
> sector of the United States.
>
> And yes, there's plenty wrong with these programs.  How valuable the
> experience can be depends on who you are going in and how you protect
> yourself and your writing from the criticisms and aesthetic
> evaluations of others.  Not to mention letting movements influence
> your writing so much that you end sounding like everyone else in Fence
> or Octopus.  Not that there aren't loads of great poems in those
> reviews, but sometimes the snarkiness and the surreal found in much of
> the work published there starts to overwhelm me.
>
> Then again, I tend to write in a more compressed, possibly even lyric
> narrative sort of way.  God forbid I write a sestina or it might be
> the last straw. Other grad students would probably feel the need to
> thrown me straight over into the Dana Gioia camp.
>
> Ah...see I'm doing it.  Lumping others in their groups to make myself
> feel seperate.  Imagining what groups my fellow students have assigned
> me.
>
> It's enough to strip poetry of all its magic, this way of thinking
> Don't you agree?  But in a nutshell, that's what can be wrong with MFA
> programs.
>
> The other issue is that many of the students are coming straight out
> of undergrad programs.  Blech!  No life experience whatsoever.  And
> they think they can write, but (and I'm going out on a limb here), I
> disagree.
>
> Others are sleeping their way to the top with the rising stars of the
> poetry world.  Some are convnced that the more they act like snarky,
> ice-cube hipsters, the more important and intelligent they will seem.
>
> So, that's all that I see wrong.  Here's why I'm still doing it.
> Time.  Yes, time to write.  Learning how, after 15 years in the work
> force, to take a lot of unstructured time and mold that into a writing
> schedule.  Also, three or so years to work on a book.  It's good to
> have material going into the program to begin such a venture as you'll
> look back on it later and wish that's one of the things you had done.
> Or so I assume.
>
> Exposure to interesting poets on the faculty.  This can either go
> terribly wrong, or turn out to be a rewarding relationship.  I've
> heard horror stories about Walcott and Boston U. for instance.  Glad I
> didn't go there.  My school has nice famous poets who really work hard
> to support our writing endeavors.  They seem to enjoy what they do.
> That's important.  Other programs have faculty that pit students
> against one another, and some who ignore them altogether.
>
> Funding is another great thing.  I found a college that is paying my
> tuition and giving me a nice stipend per month in exchange for my
> teaching one class a semester.  And I love to teach.  And having been
> a web programmer for many years (still am at times), teaching is a
> nice skill to have in addition.  A new skill.
>
> Location.  I got to relocate to a beautiful place.  A place full of
> writers and artists and peace and quiet.  It helps inspire me.
>
> Well, that's all for now.  Oh by the way, I'm Karen.  I guess you can
> see that from my email name.  Nice to meet you all.  And I know David
> here from another list serve I've been on for many years.
>
> Over and out,
>
> k
>

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/3e6082b4/attachment.html>

From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 22:38:55 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:38:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
Message-ID: <bf9.5ac4e19.324c8fbf@aol.com>

This has gone on far too long. Especially since you've told us all at least  
once and I think more like four times that you're leaving, done, out of here.  
But I guess it's hard to get enough attention that  way.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/ace453b1/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Wed Sep 27 22:46:45 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:46:45 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com>

So what that it looks like cut-up prose
go find fault with thistle
because it isn't rose

(The Australian poet Nigel Roberts' response to a negative review)


On 28/09/2006, at 12:02 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:

>
> because it's phil levine
> and phil levine is
> an important poet
> so everything he writes
> has to be poetry
> or he'll lose his parking space
>
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, cris cheek wrote:
>
>> i completely agree Robin
>> so i wonder why it is presented as a poem
>>
>> On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't know. What do you think it is?
>>>> best
>>>> Roger
>>> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free  
>>> verse but simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a  
>>> prose piece -- the line-breaks are just an irritation.
>>> Unless I'm missing something.
>>> Robin
>>>> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
>>>>> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>>>>> love and love
>>>>> cris
>>>>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>>>> Sweet Will
>>> .....
>>>>> --Philip Levine
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Sep 27 22:50:58 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:50:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: MFA woes
References: <C1400146.BB76%grahamd@ripon.edu><d1c74efd0609270905m75b53a7ay15ec3371f2b51d93@mail.gmail.com>
	<AB205DBD-1D82-4937-91B8-EFE9627D24FD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001001c6e2a8$ee53f2e0$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think the main problem with MFA programs is their tendency to draw unadventurous, mostly careerist poets--and to be too good at helping careerists by (unconspiratorily) setting up an MFA-dominated establishment that tends to funnel awards, publication, reviews of one's work, etc., to MFA's.

I wasn't in an MFA program but took a few classes that were mainly for MFA candidates--and enjoyed them.  I think workshops are mostly fine.  A poet with potential will not be brainwashed by them--since a main characteristic of a poet with poetential is an innate ability to go his own way.  (Just saw "poetential."  Brilliance, once again.  Too bad so many with it become poetentates.)

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/6529b8be/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 22:52:47 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:52:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271952470.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

that's funny, but i think my take on phil levine has more zip.


On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Anthony Lawrence wrote:

> So what that it looks like cut-up prose
> go find fault with thistle
> because it isn't rose
>
> (The Australian poet Nigel Roberts' response to a negative review)
>
>
> On 28/09/2006, at 12:02 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote:
>
>> 
>> because it's phil levine
>> and phil levine is
>> an important poet
>> so everything he writes
>> has to be poetry
>> or he'll lose his parking space
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, cris cheek wrote:
>> 
>>> i completely agree Robin
>>> so i wonder why it is presented as a poem
>>> 
>>> On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> I don't know. What do you think it is?
>>>>> best
>>>>> Roger
>>>> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free verse but 
>>>> simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a prose piece -- the 
>>>> line-breaks are just an irritation.
>>>> Unless I'm missing something.
>>>> Robin
>>>>> On 9/27/06, cheekc <cheekc at muohio.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> what's the function of the line break in this poem?
>>>>>> love and love
>>>>>> cris
>>>>>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:14 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>>>>> Sweet Will
>>>> .....
>>>>>> --Philip Levine
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 23:01:39 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:01:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

> So what that it looks like cut-up prose
> go find fault with thistle
> because it isn't rose
>
> (The Australian poet Nigel Roberts' response to a negative review)

My problem with this particular piece is that it would be *better laid out 
as prose.  I've got nothing against thistles, but this is a thistle 
pretending to be a rose, and would be better if it wasn't trying to pass.

Better a healthy thistle than a festering rose.

        Robin

>>> On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:
...
>>>> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free  verse 
>>>> but simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a  prose 
>>>> piece -- the line-breaks are just an irritation.
>>>> Unless I'm missing something.
>>>> Robin 




From jfq at myuw.net  Wed Sep 27 23:02:01 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: MFA woes
In-Reply-To: <001001c6e2a8$ee53f2e0$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609272002010.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

I agree with this a lot, and I think Helen's earlier comments about the supply and demand issue (something I wrote about a couple of months ago at wetasphalt as it applies to literary journals, the proliferation of which I think is also due to the MFA programs) in combination with this "Funneling" effect cover the two major problems with the MFA system.

I do have a beef with workshops in that I really do often feel while i'm reading something that I can detect the fingerprints of a Workshop. It's probably more true of fiction than poetry, so much so that I've tried to coin the term "workshop fiction" to refer to it. For a good example, see Heidi Julavits' novel "The Mineral Palace." But I have friends who've had good experiences in them, even though I've often felt like my time was being wasted. So far as I can tell from such reports, the quality of a workshop varies greatly on the quality of the instructor. If that's the case, then I've had some very bad instructors in the writing workshops.

I wonder though if someone's work is a good measure of how well they run a workshop. My inclination would be that it isn't, which really makes selecting an MFA program a crap shoot. But then, my friend Sam Cheuk, who is an excellent poet who's in the MFA program at NYU has had what he reports were very good workshops with Sharon Olds and Glyn Maxwell, and judging by their poetry, I would think those classes would suck. hence, even more of a crap shoot.


On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Bob Grumman wrote:

> I think the main problem with MFA programs is their tendency to draw unadventurous, mostly careerist poets--and to be too good at helping careerists by (unconspiratorily) setting up an MFA-dominated establishment that tends to funnel awards, publication, reviews of one's work, etc., to MFA's.
>
> I wasn't in an MFA program but took a few classes that were mainly for MFA candidates--and enjoyed them.  I think workshops are mostly fine.  A poet with potential will not be brainwashed by them--since a main characteristic of a poet with poetential is an innate ability to go his own way.  (Just saw "poetential."  Brilliance, once again.  Too bad so many with it become poetentates.)
>
> --Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Sep 27 23:37:17 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:37:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Epitaph
Message-ID: <7B9A5B7E-FBF6-4881-BB0B-486C0A43E392@ripon.edu>

Epitaph

Not the five feet of water to your chin
but the inch above the tip of your nose.

--Charles Reznikoff


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060927/d82816bb/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 28 00:58:06 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 06:58:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong
References: <02cf01c6e272$12301d10$c5e83652@ANNY>
	<004601c6e282$2cb9ae70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <002901c6e2ba$afbb25f0$23eb3652@ANNY>


:-)
this morning they are single again. What a devastation yesterday...
Hopefully they will stay as they are. I think that is enough.

Anny
  From: David Bircumshaw 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:13 AM


  Nope, Anny, your'e not. I thought seeing double was a result of my weakness, now I realise seeing triple has nothing whatsoever to do with my failings.

  Best

  Dave


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong


    I am receiving all the messages from New Poetry in tripple format, that is : three for one. I am the only one?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/c755dd2d/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 28 01:02:49 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:02:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] M(opes) F(arting) A(round)
References: <2397.1159375764@opus40.org>
Message-ID: <004101c6e2bb$585672a0$23eb3652@ANNY>

If this can be of any consolation to melancholic states, they are restricting here as well and imposing new specializations to everybody. 
My resume when rolled out goes from here to Rome, but that does not matter, nothing matters, I guess, when the gov has to second the complaints of new powerful groups. 
  From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:49 PM



  I can't answer the question of what's wrong with MFA programs today, because my experience is 40 years ago, and irrelevant. And I teach undergraduates -- more or less the range of things Robin mentions. But I may not be teaching any more lit courses, because my university is trying to restrict those to specialists with degrees in the field. And what to writers know about literature?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/564b7e15/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 03:00:31 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:00:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong
References: <02cf01c6e272$12301d10$c5e83652@ANNY><004601c6e282$2cb9ae70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<002901c6e2ba$afbb25f0$23eb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002401c6e2cb$cb6b1970$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Mine have reverted to the single life too, perhaps the messages are conveying a message.

:-)

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] something is wrong



  :-)
  this morning they are single again. What a devastation yesterday...
  Hopefully they will stay as they are. I think that is enough.

  Anny
    From: David Bircumshaw 
    Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:13 AM


    Nope, Anny, your'e not. I thought seeing double was a result of my weakness, now I realise seeing triple has nothing whatsoever to do with my failings.

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: New Poetry 
      Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong


      I am receiving all the messages from New Poetry in tripple format, that is : three for one. I am the only one?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Anny Ballardini
      http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
      http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
      http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
      I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
      Friedrich Nietzsche 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/cefbcd0c/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 03:05:43 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:05:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Language usage
References: <2397.1159375764@opus40.org> <004101c6e2bb$585672a0$23eb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <003201c6e2cc$84defd90$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

This is really worth sharing: lead headline on BBC Radio 4 at 8 this morning:

"The biggest prison in London is over-run with vermin and relationships between staff and inmates are deteriorating."

Wonder why?

Best

Dave

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/bd1cebfc/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 28 03:16:43 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Language usage
In-Reply-To: <003201c6e2cc$84defd90$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609280016430.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>

I love it!

i have a vision of a tv show: "Prison Guards in Love"

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> This is really worth sharing: lead headline on BBC Radio 4 at 8 this morning:
>
> "The biggest prison in London is over-run with vermin and relationships between staff and inmates are deteriorating."
>
> Wonder why?
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Sep 28 08:22:00 2006
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:22:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it in response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/. 

Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that we use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing to do with the practice of English language poets. We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in the first foot would still be a standard variation on that line if we called it a swayback.

On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:

>wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason, but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."
>
>i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter: you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my time.
>
>On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>
>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>>
>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2 years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year), played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying, during five of which he didn't know who I was.
>>
>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>>
>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and they dance with phonological stress.
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>>>
>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium


From hawkbrwn at msn.com  Thu Sep 28 08:26:29 2006
From: hawkbrwn at msn.com (Elaine Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:26:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Language usage
In-Reply-To: <003201c6e2cc$84defd90$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV14E1DD7F64A1B7630D3FDBD91B0@phx.gbl>

When they say ?vermin? do they mean the people having the bad relationships,
or rats?  


On 9/28/06 3:05 AM, "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> This is really worth sharing: lead headline on BBC Radio 4 at 8 this morning:
>  
> "The biggest prison in London is over-run with vermin and relationships
> between staff and inmates are deteriorating."
>  
> Wonder why?
>  
> Best
>  
> Dave
>  
>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/d1c98620/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 08:31:28 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:31:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong
References: <02cf01c6e272$12301d10$c5e83652@ANNY><004601c6e282$2cb9ae70$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c6e2ba$afbb25f0$23eb3652@ANNY>
	<002401c6e2cb$cb6b1970$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <003b01c6e2fa$05e171c0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I always get two, but that's because I'm registered under two different email addresses.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Bircumshaw 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] something is wrong


  Mine have reverted to the single life too, perhaps the messages are conveying a message.

  :-)

  Dave


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:58 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] something is wrong



    :-)
    this morning they are single again. What a devastation yesterday...
    Hopefully they will stay as they are. I think that is enough.

    Anny
      From: David Bircumshaw 
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:13 AM


      Nope, Anny, your'e not. I thought seeing double was a result of my weakness, now I realise seeing triple has nothing whatsoever to do with my failings.

      Best

      Dave


        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Anny Ballardini 
        To: New Poetry 
        Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM
        Subject: [New-Poetry] something is wrong


        I am receiving all the messages from New Poetry in tripple format, that is : three for one. I am the only one?


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Anny Ballardini
        http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
        http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
        http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
        I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
        Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/c8cd569c/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 08:34:15 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:34:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <006001c6e2fa$69240ef0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I want to find an MFA program that specializes in the thwarptingle...in an 
appropriately hothouse atmosphere, of course.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA


> I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it 
> in response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a 
> writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is 
> willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/.
>
> Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should 
> know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that 
> we use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing 
> to do with the practice of English language poets. We could call the 
> standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be 
> ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly 
> stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in 
> the first foot would still be a standard variation on that line if we 
> called it a swayback.
>
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>>wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all 
>>this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no 
>>reason, but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too 
>>many assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks 
>>that were never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is 
>>not currently living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to 
>>the domain of "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for 
>>writing."
>>
>>i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter: 
>>you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old 
>>fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be 
>>replaced with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that 
>>beyond what I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd 
>>like to talk about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll 
>>happily talk to you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're 
>>hardly worth my time.
>>
>>On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>>
>>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in 
>>> English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>>>
>>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and 
>>> middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice 
>>> (2 years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a 
>>> programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one 
>>> year), played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, 
>>> attended at least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 
>>> 1991, studying everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice 
>>> (12 years each time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first 
>>> wife stolen from me by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I 
>>> owned twice (even my dog died the first time that happened), and watched 
>>> my father take 9 years dying, during five of which he didn't know who I 
>>> was.
>>>
>>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a 
>>> hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>>>
>>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, 
>>> there's only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except 
>>> dipodics), and they dance with phonological stress.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. 
>>>> unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops 
>>>> full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling 
>>>> papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that 
>>>> were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>>>>
>>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually 
>>>> stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you 
>>>> consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and 
>>>> tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry 
>>>> to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your 
>>>> snark before it has a chance to get going.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like 
>>>>> mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, 
>>>>> helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, 
>>>>> unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach 
>>>>> people things.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe 
>>>>> even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA 
>>>>> does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a 
>>>>> year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. 
>>>>> Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems 
>>>>> if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots 
>>>>> of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in 
>>>>> the history of the universe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be 
>>>>> even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good 
>>>>> (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and 
>>>>> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from 
>>>>> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 28 09:40:13 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:40:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>

I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If  
you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account  
for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not  
that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to  
wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground,  
it seems.

Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm  
being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a  
student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter  
early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many  
recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and  
greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine  
tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their  
traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics,  
also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse.

I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books,  
but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
whimsical response from a few books ago:


A Theory of Prosody

When Nellie, my old pussy
cat, was still in her prime,
she would sit behind me
as I wrote, and when the line
got too long she'd reach
one sudden black foreleg down
and paw at the moving hand,
the offensive one. The first
time she drew blood I learned
it was poetic to end
a line anywhere to keep her
quiet. After all, many morn-
ings she'd gotten to the chair
long before I was even up.
Those nights I couldn't sleep
she'd come and sit in my lap
to calm me. So I figured
I owed her the short cat line.
She's dead now almost nine years,
and before that there was one
during which she faked attention
and I faked obedience.
Isn't that what it's about--
pretending there's an alert cat
who leaves nothing to chance.

--Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.


On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com>  
wrote:

> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
> merely by the habit of the poet.
>
> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very  
> differently
> with one's ouevre.
>
> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>
> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important  
> arbitrary
> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>
> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>
> Finnegan
>
>


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/f5f6cc37/attachment.html>

From almaginnes at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 09:49:24 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:49:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
	<24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C8B11C0B1F33AE-3DC-8B5@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>

I read an interview once with Levine where he was asked about the skinny line he used quite a bit at one time, and he said that he used Yeats's trimeter line as a model. When he was working in that mode, he said, he didn't consider individual lines or the way htey were broken all that important. This is pretty much counter to the way I've always done things, but his point was that concentrating too exclusively on the line as the primary motor of the poem is as short sighted as focusing too much on any aspect of the poem.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grahamd at ripon.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.   


Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse.  


I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago: 




A Theory of Prosody
 
When Nellie, my old pussy
cat, was still in her prime,
she would sit behind me
as I wrote, and when the line
got too long she'd reach
one sudden black foreleg down
and paw at the moving hand,
the offensive one. The first
time she drew blood I learned
it was poetic to end
a line anywhere to keep her
quiet. After all, many morn-
ings she'd gotten to the chair
long before I was even up.
Those nights I couldn't sleep
she'd come and sit in my lap
to calm me. So I figured
I owed her the short cat line.
She's dead now almost nine years,
and before that there was one
during which she faked attention
and I faked obedience.
Isn't that what it's about--
pretending there's an alert cat
who leaves nothing to chance.
 
--Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
 


On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
(like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
merely by the habit of the poet.
 
The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
with one's ouevre.
 
What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 
 
Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem 
if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
complement somewhere in the prior passage or
what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
 
Finnegan
 
 




==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================






= 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/e29f9d50/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 28 10:00:52 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:00:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Frost
Message-ID: <B5060F89-3256-49DE-94CC-3F6446CA2A2D@ripon.edu>

Virginia Quarterly Review is about to publish a previously  
unpublished, apparently forgotten war poem by Robert Frost:

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2006/fall/genoways-frost-symposium/

It was hand-written by the poet in a copy of *North of Boston*,  
evidently.

==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/a44c008c/attachment.html>

From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 10:04:20 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:04:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
In-Reply-To: <00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com>
	<00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com>

A question for Cris and Robin: why is better for you for the poem to
be laid out in prose? Why should there be some connection between the
way the poem is spoken and line-break?

Roger

On 9/28/06, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> > So what that it looks like cut-up prose
> > go find fault with thistle
> > because it isn't rose
> >
> > (The Australian poet Nigel Roberts' response to a negative review)
>
> My problem with this particular piece is that it would be *better laid out
> as prose.  I've got nothing against thistles, but this is a thistle
> pretending to be a rose, and would be better if it wasn't trying to pass.
>
> Better a healthy thistle than a festering rose.
>
>         Robin
>
> >>> On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:22, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> ...
> >>>> My sense was that it wasn't either Iowa Plain Text or lax free  verse
> >>>> but simply cut-up prose.  Would have worked better *as a  prose
> >>>> piece -- the line-breaks are just an irritation.
> >>>> Unless I'm missing something.
> >>>> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 28 10:14:43 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609280714430.4361@hur11.myuw.net>

I think you're over reading into the things I've said to assume I think a writer should have one kind of life or another. Like i said, what kind of work a person does is pretty much neither here nor there. I'm glad you've had a good life. It sounded like you'd had a pretty shitty time from the events you described. But just to be clear about it, the fact that I think being a creative writing teacher is kind of a cushy job without a lot of value to it doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a log of good work to be done in all sorts of fields, including academia, by all sorts of people having all sorts of lives. That having been said, do you want this to continue as a flame war or do you want to talk like grown ups? Because if you want to continue the flame war, that's fine, I have no problem meeting fire with fire, it's just it gets kind of boring after a while and I get the feeling you're 
a smart guy with well considered ideas about poetry and therefore might be worth talking to if you could get over the urge to call my ideas pompous and inane just because you don't agree with them or like them or whatever.

More to the point and in the interests of talking about something that's less of a waste of time than whose daddy's MFA program can kick whose Daddy's real world experiences' ass or whatever, i think it's interesting what you say about meter, particularly taking iambic pentameter to be a standard line. My problem with it is that it's always seemed really artificial to me and that unless it's done in a very particular way it sounds really clunky. an example:
"Such did the manna's sacred dew distil ;
White and entire, though congealed and chill ;
Congealed on earth ; but does, dissolving, run
Into the glories of the almighty sun."

which is Marvell and to my ear sounds like a flat tire thumping along on a bad road, and I think because the largely mechanistic application of iambic pentameter does that when a poet pays too little attention to his unstressed syllables, which is what thinking in terms of a stressed/unstressed binary causes a poet to do. Compare that to a piece of Iambic pentameter that's done well:

"I love to hear her speak, yet well I know   
That music hath a far more pleasing sound:
I grant I never saw a goddess go,?   
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:"

Which I'm sure you recognize and I think illustrates well what a poet with at least a more intuitive understanding of the rhythms of natural language can do if he or she is more attendant to the subtleties of the true multistressed nature of English. Scan those with traditional english poetry and it looks like they have the same metrical structure. Yet it seems patently obvious to me that there is more going on with Bill than with Andy. Which is my criticism of traditional prosody that I was trying to level in the essay you're rejecting without much support: traditional prosody clings too much to classical linguistics which is far less sophisticated than the subtleties produced by the research of modern linguists who've produced many solid and scientific accounts of english prosody, which bear not a great deal of resemblance to the organizational structure offered by the aspect of poesy that's long gone by the same name.
Which, incidentally, is also what I mean when I say it's derived from old dead languages, I don't mean that the quantitative verse of greek from which classical prosody derives its terminology has been grafted directly onto the language, it means I think that critics trying to come up with a good way to analyze the rhythm of poetry look too much to the past and to poems composed based largely on linguistic ideas founded on, in particular, anglo saxon and the romance languages rather than looking to the linguistic prosody of their own times and seeing what we can do with that.


On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:

> I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it in response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/.
>
> Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that we use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing to do with the practice of English language poets. We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in the first foot would still be a standard variation on that line if we called it a swayback.
>
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>
>> wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason, but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."
>>
>> i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter: you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my time.
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>>
>>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>>>
>>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2 years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year), played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying, during five of which he didn't know who I was.
>>>
>>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>>>
>>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and they dance with phonological stress.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job. unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal, one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>>>>
>>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance to get going.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written. Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though, obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 10:54:20 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:54:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sea Surface Full of Clouds
Message-ID: <00c901c6e30d$fb05d020$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Is there a name for the form it's written in?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/186dc415/attachment.html>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:01:45 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:01:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
	<24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <648208b60609280801p46657949m6ebef93bddeb3c4b@mail.gmail.com>

Do you really think that first line break works to the benefit of the poem?

- Jim

On 9/28/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're
> looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone
> from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions
> shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some
> of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>
>
> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being
> reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like
> many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined
> the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that
> Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some
> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free
> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is
> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like
> free verse.
>
> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's
> certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response
> from a few books ago:
>
>
>
> A Theory of Prosody
>
> When Nellie, my old pussy
> cat, was still in her prime,
> she would sit behind me
> as I wrote, and when the line
> got too long she'd reach
> one sudden black foreleg down
> and paw at the moving hand,
> the offensive one. The first
> time she drew blood I learned
> it was poetic to end
> a line anywhere to keep her
> quiet. After all, many morn-
> ings she'd gotten to the chair
> long before I was even up.
> Those nights I couldn't sleep
> she'd come and sit in my lap
> to calm me. So I figured
> I owed her the short cat line.
> She's dead now almost nine years,
> and before that there was one
> during which she faked attention
> and I faked obedience.
> Isn't that what it's about--
> pretending there's an alert cat
> who leaves nothing to chance.
>
> --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
> merely by the habit of the poet.
>
> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
> with one's ouevre.
>
> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>
> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>
> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>
> Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========================================
>
> David Graham
>
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>
> Poetry Library:
>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 28 11:03:54 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:03:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <648208b60609280801p46657949m6ebef93bddeb3c4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1414E8A.BC40%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Well, if that's a serious question, sure:  it's a joke.




On 9/28/06 10:01 AM, "James Cervantes" <cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote:

> Do you really think that first line break works to the benefit of the poem?
> 
> - Jim
> 
> On 9/28/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're
>> looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone
>> from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions
>> shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some
>> of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>> 
>> 
>> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being
>> reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like
>> many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined
>> the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that
>> Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some
>> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free
>> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is
>> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like
>> free verse.
>> 
>> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's
>> certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response
>> from a few books ago:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A Theory of Prosody
>> 
>> When Nellie, my old pussy
>> cat, was still in her prime,
>> she would sit behind me
>> as I wrote, and when the line
>> got too long she'd reach
>> one sudden black foreleg down
>> and paw at the moving hand,
>> the offensive one. The first
>> time she drew blood I learned
>> it was poetic to end
>> a line anywhere to keep her
>> quiet. After all, many morn-
>> ings she'd gotten to the chair
>> long before I was even up.
>> Those nights I couldn't sleep
>> she'd come and sit in my lap
>> to calm me. So I figured
>> I owed her the short cat line.
>> She's dead now almost nine years,
>> and before that there was one
>> during which she faked attention
>> and I faked obedience.
>> Isn't that what it's about--
>> pretending there's an alert cat
>> who leaves nothing to chance.
>> 
>> --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
>> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
>> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
>> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
>> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>> merely by the habit of the poet.
>> 
>> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
>> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
>> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
>> with one's ouevre.
>> 
>> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
>> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
>> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>> 
>> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
>> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
>> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
>> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>> 
>> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
>> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
>> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
>> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
>> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
>> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
>> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
>> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
>> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>> 
>> Finnegan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ==========================================
>> 
>> David Graham
>> 
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> 
>> Home Page:
>> 
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> 
>> Poetry Library:
>> 
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> 
>> ==========================================
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 11:35:20 2006
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
Message-ID: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sorry guys, I hate to be rude and am usually a
complacent and good-willed mostly-lurker, but I gotta
say blah blah blah blah blah blah blah MFA blah blah
blah stop talking down to me, blah blah I hate blah
blah MFA.
Can we talk about poetry now?
Yours,
Al "Poetaster" Dickow

"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II


From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:36:52 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <C1414E8A.BC40%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <648208b60609280801p46657949m6ebef93bddeb3c4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1414E8A.BC40%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <648208b60609280836s18096ecdv6589eaa818dc167f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, color me calico.  I don't get it.  I'll try waking up again.

- Jim

On 9/28/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> Well, if that's a serious question, sure:  it's a joke.
>
>
>
>
> On 9/28/06 10:01 AM, "James Cervantes" <cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you really think that first line break works to the benefit of the poem?
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > On 9/28/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> >> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're
> >> looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone
> >> from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions
> >> shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some
> >> of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
> >>
> >>
> >> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being
> >> reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like
> >> many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined
> >> the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that
> >> Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some
> >> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free
> >> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is
> >> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like
> >> free verse.
> >>
> >> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's
> >> certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response
> >> from a few books ago:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A Theory of Prosody
> >>
> >> When Nellie, my old pussy
> >> cat, was still in her prime,
> >> she would sit behind me
> >> as I wrote, and when the line
> >> got too long she'd reach
> >> one sudden black foreleg down
> >> and paw at the moving hand,
> >> the offensive one. The first
> >> time she drew blood I learned
> >> it was poetic to end
> >> a line anywhere to keep her
> >> quiet. After all, many morn-
> >> ings she'd gotten to the chair
> >> long before I was even up.
> >> Those nights I couldn't sleep
> >> she'd come and sit in my lap
> >> to calm me. So I figured
> >> I owed her the short cat line.
> >> She's dead now almost nine years,
> >> and before that there was one
> >> during which she faked attention
> >> and I faked obedience.
> >> Isn't that what it's about--
> >> pretending there's an alert cat
> >> who leaves nothing to chance.
> >>
> >> --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
> >> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
> >> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
> >> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
> >> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
> >> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
> >> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
> >> merely by the habit of the poet.
> >>
> >> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
> >> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
> >> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
> >> with one's ouevre.
> >>
> >> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
> >> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
> >> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
> >>
> >> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
> >> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
> >> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
> >> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
> >>
> >> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
> >> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
> >> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
> >> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
> >> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
> >> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
> >> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
> >> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
> >> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
> >> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
> >> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
> >> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
> >> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
> >> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
> >>
> >> Finnegan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==========================================
> >>
> >> David Graham
> >>
> >> grahamd at ripon.edu
> >>
> >> Home Page:
> >>
> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >>
> >> Poetry Library:
> >>
> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >>
> >> ==========================================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu Sep 28 12:37:01 2006
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:37:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill and Andy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609280714430.4361@hur11.myuw.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609280714430.4361@hur11.myuw.net>
Message-ID: <1159461421.451bfa2d99d39@webmail.ukonline.net>

I like the Shakes - though I think some of his later sonnets move more subtly -
 and I think I quite like the Marvell too. But that's not my point. 

I feel a necessary distinction coming on between the metrical facts of the 
poem and the poem's qualities as a whole, including auditory properties, 
including rhythmic properties. Though these subsets keep narrowing even the 
last one comprehends far more than the metrical facts, which I should say are 
only those that are metrically relevant - e.g. to whether it keeps within 
certain rules - and these can be fairly adequately described by traditional 
means. Each of these extracts could be given a diagrammatic metrical 
description but these would not tell you anything about whether the poetry was 
good or not - I doubt if any metrical pattern is intrinsically vicious though 
crusty scholars have sometimes implied the opposite. 

Metrically I see no distinction between the extracts other than different 
intralineal pauses and some trochaic inversion in the Marvell - they're both 
iambic pentameter, though the rhyme patterns are different. Yet of course 
there's a world of difference between the two in rhythm, colour, heaviness vs 
freshness, perkiness vs. effort, and so on, but this I think must be 
approached by going far beyond what is metrically significant. Indeed I don't 
think you can even draw a definite boundary to the discussion of these 
differing effects by limiting it to what is auditory - you are bound to start 
thinking about how the language itself had changed in those 70 years, and 
about cultural changes and how each author thought his verse signified against 
the broad backcloth of the other cultural and linguistic expressions around 
him. It could be that these wider areas of discussion would benefit from some 
agreed terminology but there are so many variables that few have ever become 
established. Whereas the metrical descriptions have very wide currency, but at 
the expense of only being descriptive of a small aspect of what's happening. 







Quoting jfq at myuw.net:

> I think you're over reading into the things I've said to assume I think a
> writer should have one kind of life or another. Like i said, what kind of
> work a person does is pretty much neither here nor there. I'm glad you've had
> a good life. It sounded like you'd had a pretty shitty time from the events
> you described. But just to be clear about it, the fact that I think being a
> creative writing teacher is kind of a cushy job without a lot of value to it
> doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a log of good work to be done in all
> sorts of fields, including academia, by all sorts of people having all sorts
> of lives. That having been said, do you want this to continue as a flame war
> or do you want to talk like grown ups? Because if you want to continue the
> flame war, that's fine, I have no problem meeting fire with fire, it's just
> it gets kind of boring after a while and I get the feeling you're 
> a smart guy with well considered ideas about poetry and therefore might be
> worth talking to if you could get over the urge to call my ideas pompous and
> inane just because you don't agree with them or like them or whatever.
> 
> More to the point and in the interests of talking about something that's less
> of a waste of time than whose daddy's MFA program can kick whose Daddy's real
> world experiences' ass or whatever, i think it's interesting what you say
> about meter, particularly taking iambic pentameter to be a standard line. My
> problem with it is that it's always seemed really artificial to me and that
> unless it's done in a very particular way it sounds really clunky. an
> example:
> "Such did the manna's sacred dew distil ;
> White and entire, though congealed and chill ;
> Congealed on earth ; but does, dissolving, run
> Into the glories of the almighty sun."
> 
> which is Marvell and to my ear sounds like a flat tire thumping along on a
> bad road, and I think because the largely mechanistic application of iambic
> pentameter does that when a poet pays too little attention to his unstressed
> syllables, which is what thinking in terms of a stressed/unstressed binary
> causes a poet to do. Compare that to a piece of Iambic pentameter that's done
> well:
> 
> "I love to hear her speak, yet well I know   
> That music hath a far more pleasing sound:
> I grant I never saw a goddess go,?   
> My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:"
> 
> Which I'm sure you recognize and I think illustrates well what a poet with at
> least a more intuitive understanding of the rhythms of natural language can
> do if he or she is more attendant to the subtleties of the true multistressed
> nature of English. Scan those with traditional english poetry and it looks
> like they have the same metrical structure. Yet it seems patently obvious to
> me that there is more going on with Bill than with Andy. Which is my
> criticism of traditional prosody that I was trying to level in the essay
> you're rejecting without much support: traditional prosody clings too much to
> classical linguistics which is far less sophisticated than the subtleties
> produced by the research of modern linguists who've produced many solid and
> scientific accounts of english prosody, which bear not a great deal of
> resemblance to the organizational structure offered by the aspect of poesy
> that's long gone by the same name.
> Which, incidentally, is also what I mean when I say it's derived from old
> dead languages, I don't mean that the quantitative verse of greek from which
> classical prosody derives its terminology has been grafted directly onto the
> language, it means I think that critics trying to come up with a good way to
> analyze the rhythm of poetry look too much to the past and to poems composed
> based largely on linguistic ideas founded on, in particular, anglo saxon and
> the romance languages rather than looking to the linguistic prosody of their
> own times and seeing what we can do with that.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
> 
> > I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it in
> response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a
> writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is
> willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/.
> >
> > Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should
> know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that we
> use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing to do
> with the practice of English language poets. We could call the standard line
> of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be ten syllables
> with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly stressed than the
> syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in the first foot would
> still be a standard variation on that line if we called it a swayback.
> >
> > On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >
> >> wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all
> this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason,
> but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many
> assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were
> never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently
> living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of
> "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."
> >>
> >> i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter:
> you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old
> fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced
> with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what
> I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk
> about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to
> you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my
> time.
> >>
> >> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
> >>
> >>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in
> English accentual-syllabic poetry.
> >>>
> >>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and
> middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2
> years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a
> programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year),
> played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at
> least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying
> everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each
> time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me
> by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog
> died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying,
> during five of which he didn't know who I was.
> >>>
> >>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a
> hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
> >>>
> >>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's
> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and
> they dance with phonological stress.
> >>>
> >>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job.
> unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of
> bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and
> particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal,
> one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
> >>>>
> >>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually
> stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a
> grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of
> deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace
> other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance
> to get going.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like
> mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter
> pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest
> of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
> >>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
> >>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe
> even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does
> after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then
> to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this
> argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks
> that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written.
> Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be
> even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though,
> obviously, not as good as mine)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>>>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> >>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across
> the web, free AOL Mail and more.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> >>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> > http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Sep 28 12:42:41 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:42:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Perkiness vs. effort
In-Reply-To: <1159461421.451bfa2d99d39@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <C14165B1.BC57%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 9/28/06 11:37 AM, "m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk" <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk>
wrote:

> Metrically I see no distinction between the extracts other than different
> intralineal pauses and some trochaic inversion in the Marvell - they're both
> iambic pentameter, though the rhyme patterns are different. Yet of course
> there's a world of difference between the two in rhythm, colour, heaviness vs
> freshness, perkiness vs. effort,

I really like this description, especially "perkiness vs. effort."  Robert
Herrick, Frank O'Hara:  generally perky.  WB Yeats, Robert Lowell:  all
effort.  Two different sorts of style, both pleasing in their way.
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From almaginnes at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 12:46:11 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:46:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <648208b60609280801p46657949m6ebef93bddeb3c4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>	<24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
	<648208b60609280801p46657949m6ebef93bddeb3c4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C8B134BD652D8A-3DC-15CD@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>

Sure got me to read the second line. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com
Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
Do you really think that first line break works to the benefit of the poem? 
 
- Jim 
 
On 9/28/06, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: 
> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part. If you're 
> looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone 
> from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck. Not that the questions 
> shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some 
> of us put them less in the foreground, it seems. 
> 
> 
> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being 
> reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student. Like 
> many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined 
> the Naked Poetry revolution. I wonder how many recent readers know that 
> Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still. Some 
> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free 
> versers who don't know their traditional prosody. A lot of early Levine is 
> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like 
> free verse. 
> 
> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's 
> certainly a topic Levine has thought about. Here's a whimsical response 
> from a few books ago: 
> 
> 
> 
> A Theory of Prosody 
> 
> When Nellie, my old pussy 
> cat, was still in her prime, 
> she would sit behind me 
> as I wrote, and when the line 
> got too long she'd reach 
> one sudden black foreleg down 
> and paw at the moving hand, 
> the offensive one. The first 
> time she drew blood I learned 
> it was poetic to end 
> a line anywhere to keep her 
> quiet. After all, many morn- 
> ings she'd gotten to the chair 
> long before I was even up. 
> Those nights I couldn't sleep 
> she'd come and sit in my lap 
> to calm me. So I figured 
> I owed her the short cat line. 
> She's dead now almost nine years, 
> and before that there was one 
> during which she faked attention 
> and I faked obedience. 
> Isn't that what it's about-- 
> pretending there's an alert cat 
> who leaves nothing to chance. 
> 
> --Philip Levine. A Walk With Tom Jefferson. Knopf, 1988. 
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
> 
> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made 
> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end 
> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element 
> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be 
> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of 
> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose 
> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line 
> merely by the habit of the poet. 
> 
> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the 
> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and 
> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently 
> with one's ouevre. 
> 
> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak 
> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck, 
> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 
> 
> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary 
> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem 
> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end 
> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy? 
> 
> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study, 
> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in 
> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech? 
> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted? 
> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or 
> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi- 
> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime 
> complement somewhere in the prior passage or 
> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device 
> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables 
> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short 
> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak 
> could then be asked about the start of the successive line. 
> 
> Finnegan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ========================================== 
> 
> David Graham 
> 
> grahamd at ripon.edu 
> 
> Home Page: 
> 
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html 
> 
> Poetry Library: 
> 
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 
> 
> ========================================== 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> New-Poetry mailing list 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> 
> 
> 
 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org 
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning 
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html 
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ 
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/95bb7555/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 13:16:04 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:16:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Frost
References: <B5060F89-3256-49DE-94CC-3F6446CA2A2D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <011401c6e321$c7eea6d0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Exciting stuff.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:00 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Frost


  Virginia Quarterly Review is about to publish a previously unpublished, apparently forgotten war poem by Robert Frost:


  http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2006/fall/genoways-frost-symposium/


  It was hand-written by the poet in a copy of *North of Boston*, evidently.  




  ==========================================

  David Graham

  grahamd at ripon.edu

  Home Page:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html

  Poetry Library:

  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

  ==========================================










------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/7e324a07/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 13:16:23 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:16:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>

> We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and 
> it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables 
> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ...

First dipodic metre, now this!  Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress.  The 
classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think -- am I 
right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The Concept 
of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone wants to 
check it out.  Don't think it's available on the Web, though.

Robin 




From almaginnes at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 13:29:45 2006
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:29:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>

My dipodes are stressed. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> 
 
> We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and > it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables > more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ... 
 
First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress. The classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think -- am I right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The Concept of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone wants to check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though. 
 
Robin  
_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/5f6926fb/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 13:32:13 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:32:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

>A question for Cris and Robin: why is better for you for the poem to
> be laid out in prose? Why should there be some connection between the
> way the poem is spoken and line-break?
>
> Roger

I *don't think as a general thing that it's better for a poem to be laid out 
as prose.  But in the case of the Levine poem, I do think it would have 
improved the text.

There's free verse, with a hundred years of tradition, at least, behind it, 
and there's chopped-up prose ...

As to a connection between the way the poem is spoken, and line-breaks, I 
suppose I should have qualified this with "99% of the time" to take in 
visual poetry, etc.

I'd tend to see line breaks as parallel to punctuation, in guiding the 
speaking voice, but that's partly because I see poetry as "ultimately" 
[scare quotes] located in the speaking voice.

Line ending is where free verse is always more problematic, tricky, whatever 
than writing in say syllable accent metre.  If you're writing a pentameter 
line, you *already know the line's going to have to last for ten syllables, 
give or take a syllable.  (In the same way that when you start writing a 
sonnet, you know it's going to finish fourteen lines later.  sometimes.)  In 
free verse, well ...

As Finnegan pointed out at coruscating length in an earlier post, this has 
never been fully explicated.  Nevertheless, we have a century of (good) 
practice to demonstrate that whatever is the case, line-ending in "free 
verse" [scare quotes again] can't be simply arbitrary.  Otherwise we'd be 
into syllabics, and that's a different issue.

Robin 




From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 13:47:19 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:47:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com>
	<016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

It's not all that free. It's pretty much a three-stress accentual line.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


> >A question for Cris and Robin: why is better for you for the poem to
>> be laid out in prose? Why should there be some connection between the
>> way the poem is spoken and line-break?
>>
>> Roger
>
> I *don't think as a general thing that it's better for a poem to be laid 
> out as prose.  But in the case of the Levine poem, I do think it would 
> have improved the text.
>
> There's free verse, with a hundred years of tradition, at least, behind 
> it, and there's chopped-up prose ...
>
> As to a connection between the way the poem is spoken, and line-breaks, I 
> suppose I should have qualified this with "99% of the time" to take in 
> visual poetry, etc.
>
> I'd tend to see line breaks as parallel to punctuation, in guiding the 
> speaking voice, but that's partly because I see poetry as "ultimately" 
> [scare quotes] located in the speaking voice.
>
> Line ending is where free verse is always more problematic, tricky, 
> whatever than writing in say syllable accent metre.  If you're writing a 
> pentameter line, you *already know the line's going to have to last for 
> ten syllables, give or take a syllable.  (In the same way that when you 
> start writing a sonnet, you know it's going to finish fourteen lines 
> later.  sometimes.)  In free verse, well ...
>
> As Finnegan pointed out at coruscating length in an earlier post, this has 
> never been fully explicated.  Nevertheless, we have a century of (good) 
> practice to demonstrate that whatever is the case, line-ending in "free 
> verse" [scare quotes again] can't be simply arbitrary.  Otherwise we'd be 
> into syllabics, and that's a different issue.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From fssam6 at uaf.edu  Thu Sep 28 13:55:46 2006
From: fssam6 at uaf.edu (steve moore)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:55:46 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
In-Reply-To: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0A67C7F4-BE59-47C8-BBE4-8E2BE562213A@uaf.edu>

I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's  
something I haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  
traditional prosody,and how is it applied to structuring a poem? If  
someone has a book recommendation or a link they can send me too I  
would appreciate it.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 7:35 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote:

> Sorry guys, I hate to be rude and am usually a
> complacent and good-willed mostly-lurker, but I gotta
> say blah blah blah blah blah blah blah MFA blah blah
> blah stop talking down to me, blah blah I hate blah
> blah MFA.
> Can we talk about poetry now?
> Yours,
> Al "Poetaster" Dickow
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
> c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban  
> derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel  
> s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 14:05:17 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:05:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com><016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <01ce01c6e328$a7788bd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

OK, I'll go back to it and look at it more carefully in the light of this.

As archy said:

        expression is the need of my soul
        i was once a vers libre bard
        but i died and my soul went into the body of a cockroach
        it has given me a new outlook upon life
        i see things from the under side now

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


> It's not all that free. It's pretty much a three-stress accentual line.




From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 14:07:03 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:07:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com><016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<01ce01c6e328$a7788bd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <01a601c6e328$e6f32810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Nobody wrote free verse like archy.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


> OK, I'll go back to it and look at it more carefully in the light of this.
>
> As archy said:
>
>        expression is the need of my soul
>        i was once a vers libre bard
>        but i died and my soul went into the body of a cockroach
>        it has given me a new outlook upon life
>        i see things from the under side now
>
> Robin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
>
>
>> It's not all that free. It's pretty much a three-stress accentual line.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 14:35:03 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:35:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com><016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><01ce01c6e328$a7788bd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<01a601c6e328$e6f32810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <022801c6e32c$d1197310$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.

Yeah, but what don marquis *doesn't say is that archy partly did it to get 
at him over the formality of +Hermione and Her Little Group of Serious 
Thinkers+.

Toujours gai.

Robin

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
>
>
>> OK, I'll go back to it and look at it more carefully in the light of 
>> this.
>>
>> As archy said:
>>
>>        expression is the need of my soul 




From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 14:52:22 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:52:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60609281152m51389ed6n203030b7bffa2b11@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dipodes are stressed.

The stress response in the poem is meant to protect and support us.
To maintain stability or homeostasis, the poem is constantly adjusting
to its surroundings. When a physical or mental event threatens this
equilibrium, the poem reacts to it. This process is often referred to
as the "fight or flight response." We prepare this poetic action in
order to confront or flee a threat.

Our ancestors responded to stressful poetics in this fashion. Millions
of years later, when we face a poem that we perceive as challenging,
our bodies automatically go into overdrive, engaging the stress
response. Immediately, we release the same phonemes that enabled cave
people to move and think faster, hit harder, see better, hear more
acutely, and jump higher than they could only seconds earlier. Like
theirs, our linebeat speeds up; sprung rhythms increase; our breathing
quickens. Most modern stresses, however, do not call for either fight
or flight. Our experience of stress is generally related to how we
respond to a poem, not to the poem itself.

adapted from:
Stress: Signs and Symptoms, Causes and Effects
Helpguide: Mental Health Issues
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/stress_signs.htm

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 14:55:56 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
References: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0A67C7F4-BE59-47C8-BBE4-8E2BE562213A@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <000601c6e32f$bbeae7a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>

> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's  something 
> I haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional prosody,and 
> how is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book 
> recommendation or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.

I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not 
the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.

As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one thing in 
metrics and another in linguistics.

        *****

OED2(3):  PROSODY --

          1. The science of versification; that part of the study of 
language which deals with the forms of metrical composition; formerly 
reckoned as a part of grammar (see note s.v. grammar 1), and including also 
the study of the pronunciation of words (now called phonology or phonetics), 
esp. in relation to versification. Also, a treatise on this.    c1450 on

          3. Linguistics. In the theories of J. R. Firth and his followers: 
a phonological feature having as its domain more than one segment.

Prosodies include the class of 'suprasegmental' features such as intonation, 
stress, and juncture, but also some features which are regarded as 
'segmental' in phonemic theory, e.g. palatalization, lip-rounding, 
nasalization.

   1949 J. R. Firth in Trans. Philol. Soc. 1948 129 We may abstract those 
features which mark word or syllable initials and word or syllable finals or 
word junctions from the word, piece, or sentence, and regard them 
syntagmatically as prosodies, distinct from the phonematic constituents 
which are referred to as units of the consonant and vowel systems.

        *****

As to "linguistic prosody", deponent stateth not.

Robin

(Health Warning -- this is the second writing of this -- I'd forgotten that 
if you try to cut&paste directly from the OED, it crashes OE.  Anyone else 
tripped over this?  R.) 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 15:08:48 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:08:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
	<648208b60609281152m51389ed6n203030b7bffa2b11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c6e331$8893d450$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

> On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> My dipodes are stressed.
>
> The stress response in the poem is meant to protect and support us.
> To maintain stability or homeostasis, the poem is constantly adjusting
> to its surroundings. When a physical or mental event threatens this
> equilibrium, the poem reacts to it. This process is often referred to
> as the "fight or flight response." We prepare this poetic action in
> order to confront or flee a threat.
...
> adapted from:
> Stress: Signs and Symptoms, Causes and Effects

Nice one, Jim!  I always associate this form with Alfred Jarry's "The 
Crucifixion Considered As A Downhill Bicycle Race".

Robin 




From queenmouse at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 15:12:01 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:12:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609281212r64e34b94l5f876954e895c035@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dipodes are stressed.
>

Your dipodes are stressed?  I can relate.  I am sitting on two deadlines and
I'm stressed too.  And after last night's aikido session, my hamstrings are
killing me.

I suggest we all take a break for some soothing chamomile tea.  I also
suggest not listening to the news.  When all else fails, single malt scotch.


Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/bf66c28f/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 15:22:16 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:22:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com><016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><01ce01c6e328$a7788bd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<01a601c6e328$e6f32810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <002a01c6e333$6b00a740$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.

Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.

Robin



From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Sep 28 15:49:15 2006
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:49:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><02b201c6e269$a6e00320$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<2318727.1159387780308.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <01b301c6e337$2ee00ea0$44dcf63f@Helen>

I read an article in my health newsletter that stated stress wasn't good for 
you.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stress -- WAS: I hate everyone with an MFA


>
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 03:22PM, Robin Hamilton 
> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>>
>>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, 
>>> there's
>>> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), 
>>> and
>>> they dance with phonological stress.
>>
>>Neatly put!  I'm glad I'm not the only person who insists on considering
>>dipodics.
>>
>>But the "only stressed/unstressed" point would apply to the various
>>varieties of stress metres as well as syllable accent metres, nah?
>>
>>Humpty Dumpty
>>
>
> You're right, of course. I get a little blinkered sometimes.
>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 15:58:52 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:58:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <01b301c6e337$2ee00ea0$44dcf63f@Helen>
References: <1376157.1159371455842.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><02b201c6e269$a6e00320$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<2318727.1159387780308.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<01b301c6e337$2ee00ea0$44dcf63f@Helen>
Message-ID: <CDB99D34-F82D-4E07-81CE-1DC0EDEC4F33@earthlink.net>

And nothing creates stress like reading articles in health newsletters.

"If you have liver disease, tell
your doctor."
            --TV drug commercial

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org


On Sep 28, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> I read an article in my health newsletter that stated stress wasn't  
> good for you.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
> To: <New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stress -- WAS: I hate everyone with an MFA
>
>
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 03:22PM, Robin Hamilton  
>> <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>>>
>>>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in  
>>>> English, there's
>>>> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except  
>>>> dipodics), and
>>>> they dance with phonological stress.
>>>
>>> Neatly put!  I'm glad I'm not the only person who insists on  
>>> considering
>>> dipodics.
>>>
>>> But the "only stressed/unstressed" point would apply to the various
>>> varieties of stress metres as well as syllable accent metres, nah?
>>>
>>> Humpty Dumpty
>>>
>>
>> You're right, of course. I get a little blinkered sometimes.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and  
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of  
> ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 16:45:17 2006
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:45:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
Message-ID: <c85.2e13fbf.324d8e5d@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/28/2006 3:59:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

"If you  have liver disease, tell
your doctor."
--TV drug commercial



My doctor told me I have liver disease. I should tell him what he's already  
told me?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/23fcb87b/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 16:48:13 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:48:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
References: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com><0A67C7F4-BE59-47C8-BBE4-8E2BE562213A@uaf.edu>
	<000601c6e32f$bbeae7a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <003001c6e33f$6ca53910$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not
> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start<

Rob, you've actually praised Attridge! I knew I was right all the time
(GRIN)

Meantime, here's a poem by (modesty winces) which I reckon demonstrates
aptly how to handle line-endings in free-verse and avoid chopped-up prose.

Care

Dave



FLAUNT

It was Sunday afternoon and we
were a bit pissed and on the kerb-side
she saw, and I saw
stricken a pigeon lying on the road.
Pick
pick pick her up she said
and so
unwilling and willing
(because she said)
I did
which fluttered which panicked which
it's scared I said
trembled in my hands which
we took back in a cardboard box
and gave
bread & water & bird-seed
and put her (we
decided it was a she and talked
about what was to be
her name and I
said "Forlorn" which
Vicky misheard as "Flaunt")
and a man from Animal Rights
came round to strangle her
but we wouldn't tell him where Flaunt was
and in the morning
no feathers no blood no
Flaunt anymore had flown.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla


> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>
> > I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's
something
> > I haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional
prosody,and
> > how is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book
> > recommendation or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>
> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not
> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>
> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one thing in
> metrics and another in linguistics.
>
>         *****
>
> OED2(3):  PROSODY --
>
>           1. The science of versification; that part of the study of
> language which deals with the forms of metrical composition; formerly
> reckoned as a part of grammar (see note s.v. grammar 1), and including
also
> the study of the pronunciation of words (now called phonology or
phonetics),
> esp. in relation to versification. Also, a treatise on this.    c1450 on
>
>           3. Linguistics. In the theories of J. R. Firth and his
followers:
> a phonological feature having as its domain more than one segment.
>
> Prosodies include the class of 'suprasegmental' features such as
intonation,
> stress, and juncture, but also some features which are regarded as
> 'segmental' in phonemic theory, e.g. palatalization, lip-rounding,
> nasalization.
>
>    1949 J. R. Firth in Trans. Philol. Soc. 1948 129 We may abstract those
> features which mark word or syllable initials and word or syllable finals
or
> word junctions from the word, piece, or sentence, and regard them
> syntagmatically as prosodies, distinct from the phonematic constituents
> which are referred to as units of the consonant and vowel systems.
>
>         *****
>
> As to "linguistic prosody", deponent stateth not.
>
> Robin
>
> (Health Warning -- this is the second writing of this -- I'd forgotten
that
> if you try to cut&paste directly from the OED, it crashes OE.  Anyone else
> tripped over this?  R.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Sep 28 17:05:13 2006
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:05:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill and Andy: was I hate bla bla bla
Message-ID: <13546113.1159477513733.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

I'm taking advantage of Michael Peverett's excellent reply to say "Yeah, that's what I think." But I'd add that meter isn't a tool for critics--though of course they use it--but for poets. The rhythm of almost any line of metrical poetry is infinitely more complex than its meter because its rhythm comes from the interaction of the very simple contrastive stress (thanks, Robin, for reminding me of the term!) and the linguistic and rhetorical patterns of what's being said. (Again I'd agree with Robin that poetry belongs mainly, with a lot of nervous hedging and an apologetic tip of my hat to Bob G, on the spoken end of the visual-written-spoken spectrum). Again excepting dipodics and perhaps the triple meters as well, perhaps even pure trochaic verse, when you've named the meter, you've said almost nothing about the rhythm. That's what I meant when I wrote that metrical stress /dances/ with phonological stress, and I think it may be why iambic and purely accentual meters are especially favored in English verse. They make good dancing partners because they don't overwhelm natural speech.

But there's no useful way to quantify, /from the point of view of a maker of poems/, that vast complexity of speech with which the meter dances. The poor poet would be in the position of the millipede considering which leg to move first. I don't claim that the linguistic matters jfq describes are wrong or uninteresting, just that I don't think a poet can use them to make poems. Only experience, thought, and lots of reading, all in support of a regular habit of writing (and, for me, speaking aloud what I've written) can build the skills which enable the making a good poem of any kind. I make mainly metrical poems, and when I do make a good poem the meter helps me. Other people make other kinds and make them well.

On Thursday, September 28, 2006, at 12:38PM, <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>I like the Shakes - though I think some of his later sonnets move more subtly -
> and I think I quite like the Marvell too. But that's not my point. 
>
>I feel a necessary distinction coming on between the metrical facts of the 
>poem and the poem's qualities as a whole, including auditory properties, 
>including rhythmic properties. Though these subsets keep narrowing even the 
>last one comprehends far more than the metrical facts, which I should say are 
>only those that are metrically relevant - e.g. to whether it keeps within 
>certain rules - and these can be fairly adequately described by traditional 
>means. Each of these extracts could be given a diagrammatic metrical 
>description but these would not tell you anything about whether the poetry was 
>good or not - I doubt if any metrical pattern is intrinsically vicious though 
>crusty scholars have sometimes implied the opposite. 
>
>Metrically I see no distinction between the extracts other than different 
>intralineal pauses and some trochaic inversion in the Marvell - they're both 
>iambic pentameter, though the rhyme patterns are different. Yet of course 
>there's a world of difference between the two in rhythm, colour, heaviness vs 
>freshness, perkiness vs. effort, and so on, but this I think must be 
>approached by going far beyond what is metrically significant. Indeed I don't 
>think you can even draw a definite boundary to the discussion of these 
>differing effects by limiting it to what is auditory - you are bound to start 
>thinking about how the language itself had changed in those 70 years, and 
>about cultural changes and how each author thought his verse signified against 
>the broad backcloth of the other cultural and linguistic expressions around 
>him. It could be that these wider areas of discussion would benefit from some 
>agreed terminology but there are so many variables that few have ever become 
>established. Whereas the metrical descriptions have very wide currency, but at 
>the expense of only being descriptive of a small aspect of what's happening. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Quoting jfq at myuw.net:
>
>> I think you're over reading into the things I've said to assume I think a
>> writer should have one kind of life or another. Like i said, what kind of
>> work a person does is pretty much neither here nor there. I'm glad you've had
>> a good life. It sounded like you'd had a pretty shitty time from the events
>> you described. But just to be clear about it, the fact that I think being a
>> creative writing teacher is kind of a cushy job without a lot of value to it
>> doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a log of good work to be done in all
>> sorts of fields, including academia, by all sorts of people having all sorts
>> of lives. That having been said, do you want this to continue as a flame war
>> or do you want to talk like grown ups? Because if you want to continue the
>> flame war, that's fine, I have no problem meeting fire with fire, it's just
>> it gets kind of boring after a while and I get the feeling you're 
>> a smart guy with well considered ideas about poetry and therefore might be
>> worth talking to if you could get over the urge to call my ideas pompous and
>> inane just because you don't agree with them or like them or whatever.
>> 
>> More to the point and in the interests of talking about something that's less
>> of a waste of time than whose daddy's MFA program can kick whose Daddy's real
>> world experiences' ass or whatever, i think it's interesting what you say
>> about meter, particularly taking iambic pentameter to be a standard line. My
>> problem with it is that it's always seemed really artificial to me and that
>> unless it's done in a very particular way it sounds really clunky. an
>> example:
>> "Such did the manna's sacred dew distil ;
>> White and entire, though congealed and chill ;
>> Congealed on earth ; but does, dissolving, run
>> Into the glories of the almighty sun."
>> 
>> which is Marvell and to my ear sounds like a flat tire thumping along on a
>> bad road, and I think because the largely mechanistic application of iambic
>> pentameter does that when a poet pays too little attention to his unstressed
>> syllables, which is what thinking in terms of a stressed/unstressed binary
>> causes a poet to do. Compare that to a piece of Iambic pentameter that's done
>> well:
>> 
>> "I love to hear her speak, yet well I know   
>> That music hath a far more pleasing sound:
>> I grant I never saw a goddess go,?   
>> My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:"
>> 
>> Which I'm sure you recognize and I think illustrates well what a poet with at
>> least a more intuitive understanding of the rhythms of natural language can
>> do if he or she is more attendant to the subtleties of the true multistressed
>> nature of English. Scan those with traditional english poetry and it looks
>> like they have the same metrical structure. Yet it seems patently obvious to
>> me that there is more going on with Bill than with Andy. Which is my
>> criticism of traditional prosody that I was trying to level in the essay
>> you're rejecting without much support: traditional prosody clings too much to
>> classical linguistics which is far less sophisticated than the subtleties
>> produced by the research of modern linguists who've produced many solid and
>> scientific accounts of english prosody, which bear not a great deal of
>> resemblance to the organizational structure offered by the aspect of poesy
>> that's long gone by the same name.
>> Which, incidentally, is also what I mean when I say it's derived from old
>> dead languages, I don't mean that the quantitative verse of greek from which
>> classical prosody derives its terminology has been grafted directly onto the
>> language, it means I think that critics trying to come up with a good way to
>> analyze the rhythm of poetry look too much to the past and to poems composed
>> based largely on linguistic ideas founded on, in particular, anglo saxon and
>> the romance languages rather than looking to the linguistic prosody of their
>> own times and seeing what we can do with that.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>> 
>> > I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it in
>> response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a
>> writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is
>> willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/.
>> >
>> > Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should
>> know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that we
>> use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing to do
>> with the practice of English language poets. We could call the standard line
>> of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be ten syllables
>> with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly stressed than the
>> syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in the first foot would
>> still be a standard variation on that line if we called it a swayback.
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all
>> this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason,
>> but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many
>> assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were
>> never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently
>> living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of
>> "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."
>> >>
>> >> i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter:
>> you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old
>> fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced
>> with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what
>> I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk
>> about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to
>> you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my
>> time.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in
>> English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>> >>>
>> >>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and
>> middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2
>> years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a
>> programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year),
>> played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at
>> least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying
>> everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each
>> time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me
>> by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog
>> died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying,
>> during five of which he didn't know who I was.
>> >>>
>> >>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a
>> hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>> >>>
>> >>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's
>> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and
>> they dance with phonological stress.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job.
>> unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of
>> bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and
>> particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal,
>> one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually
>> stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a
>> grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of
>> deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace
>> other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance
>> to get going.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like
>> mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter
>> pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest
>> of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>> >>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>> >>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe
>> even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does
>> after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then
>> to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this
>> argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks
>> that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written.
>> Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be
>> even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though,
>> obviously, not as good as mine)?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jim
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>>>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and
>> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across
>> the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----
>> >>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>> >>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>> > http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------
>This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Sep 28 17:12:12 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:12:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Stress -- WAS:  I hate everyone with an MFA
References: <c85.2e13fbf.324d8e5d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001801c6e342$c4849dd0$53af3252@ANNY>

minimum, 
this is the least you could do, 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:45 PM


  In a message dated 9/28/2006 3:59:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
    "If you have liver disease, tell
    your doctor."
                --TV drug commercial

  My doctor told me I have liver disease. I should tell him what he's already told me?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/4a8d234a/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 17:18:58 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:18:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
References: <20060928153520.6140.qmail@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com><0A67C7F4-BE59-47C8-BBE4-8E2BE562213A@uaf.edu><000601c6e32f$bbeae7a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<003001c6e33f$6ca53910$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <006c01c6e343$b6c02ec0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>

>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not
>> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start<
>
> Rob, you've actually praised Attridge! I knew I was right all the time
> (GRIN)

Well, if you're going to go the linguistics route, Attridge is a nice 
accessible place to start.  Never denied that, did I?  (And he does deal, 
briefly, with dipodics.)

I still think a linguistic approach to scansion is (at this moment in time) 
more trouble than it's worth, founded on category-confusion and a refusal to 
recognise levels of abstraction.

For all of me, the best game in town is Joseph Malof, +A Manual of English 
Meters+.  I'll forgive him anything for putting the Lesser Ionic Ascending 
Foot in as the Bugger Factor.

> Meantime, here's a poem by (modesty winces) which I reckon demonstrates
> aptly how to handle line-endings in free-verse and avoid chopped-up prose.

Read it later -- currently trying to work out how to use the name "Vagn" 
[the long-haired boyo who upstaged Eric Bloodaxe when he was busy shortening 
Jomsvikings on the log] in a poem, without it being misspronounced (if I 
knew how to pronounce it myself in the first place).  Might stick to calling 
him "Blondie".

Robin 




From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Thu Sep 28 17:26:15 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:26:15 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com>
	<24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com>

One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said  
that when Berryman walked in
he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One  
of my favourite stories
from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the  
petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet  
called John Manifold. Manifold
wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that  
Manifold made it from Queensland
to Iowa.

On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:

> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If  
> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account  
> for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not  
> that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to  
> wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the  
> foreground, it seems.
>
> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as  
> I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely  
> with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme  
> & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I  
> wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor  
> Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were  
> students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who  
> don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in  
> strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds)  
> like free verse.
>
> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books,  
> but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
> whimsical response from a few books ago:
>
>
> A Theory of Prosody
>
> When Nellie, my old pussy
> cat, was still in her prime,
> she would sit behind me
> as I wrote, and when the line
> got too long she'd reach
> one sudden black foreleg down
> and paw at the moving hand,
> the offensive one. The first
> time she drew blood I learned
> it was poetic to end
> a line anywhere to keep her
> quiet. After all, many morn-
> ings she'd gotten to the chair
> long before I was even up.
> Those nights I couldn't sleep
> she'd come and sit in my lap
> to calm me. So I figured
> I owed her the short cat line.
> She's dead now almost nine years,
> and before that there was one
> during which she faked attention
> and I faked obedience.
> Isn't that what it's about--
> pretending there's an alert cat
> who leaves nothing to chance.
>
> --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
>> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
>> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
>> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
>> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>> merely by the habit of the poet.
>>
>> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
>> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
>> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very  
>> differently
>> with one's ouevre.
>>
>> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
>> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
>> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>>
>> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important  
>> arbitrary
>> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
>> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
>> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>>
>> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
>> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
>> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
>> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
>> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
>> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
>> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
>> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
>> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>>
>> Finnegan
>>
>>
>
>
> ==========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ==========================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/04ce2d9e/attachment.html>

From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 17:26:27 2006
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
In-Reply-To: <200609282037.k8SKbtoQ001711@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20060928212627.465.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>tradition, at least, behind 
>it, 
>and there's chopped-up prose ...

I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
difference is between these two for so long I finally
gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
oral realizations of written text). But even in
English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
"vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
Jules Laforgue).
Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
can be surprising and wonderful too. 
If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:

"Postcard"

Here the weather 
is so vacation
and my wife,
we are having wonderful
tennis. [...]

Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
could be a good thing, because it adds something --
line endings, which might or might not be functional.
A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
Yours,
Alex

PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
training's mostly in French.


"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II


From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 17:32:59 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:32:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
	<16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on this)

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony Lawrence 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said that when Berryman walked in
  he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One of my favourite stories
  from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
  an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called John Manifold. Manifold
  wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that Manifold made it from Queensland
  to Iowa.


  On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


    I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.  


    Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse.  


    I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago: 




    A Theory of Prosody

    When Nellie, my old pussy
    cat, was still in her prime,
    she would sit behind me
    as I wrote, and when the line
    got too long she'd reach
    one sudden black foreleg down
    and paw at the moving hand,
    the offensive one. The first
    time she drew blood I learned
    it was poetic to end
    a line anywhere to keep her
    quiet. After all, many morn-
    ings she'd gotten to the chair
    long before I was even up.
    Those nights I couldn't sleep
    she'd come and sit in my lap
    to calm me. So I figured
    I owed her the short cat line.
    She's dead now almost nine years,
    and before that there was one
    during which she faked attention
    and I faked obedience.
    Isn't that what it's about--
    pretending there's an alert cat
    who leaves nothing to chance.

    --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



    On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


      I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
      or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
      of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
      (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
      important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
      many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
      poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
      merely by the habit of the poet.

      The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
      free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
      handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
      with one's ouevre.

      What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
      in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
      Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 

      Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
      limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem 
      if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
      of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

      Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
      on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
      contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
      How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
      How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
      How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
      consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
      syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
      complement somewhere in the prior passage or
      what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
      of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
      occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
      employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
      could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

      Finnegan






    ==========================================
    David Graham
    grahamd at ripon.edu
    Home Page:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
    Poetry Library:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
    ==========================================






    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/d0cd604d/attachment.html>

From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Thu Sep 28 17:34:42 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:34:42 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
In-Reply-To: <20060928212627.465.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060928212627.465.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2B3924D0-A5A3-4448-8D03-170BFE15BCB6@bigpond.com>

Witchery

While working on a spell to create the perfect line-break


On 29/09/2006, at 7:26 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote:

>> There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>> tradition, at least, behind
>> it,
>> and there's chopped-up prose ...
>
> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
> difference is between these two for so long I finally
> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
> oral realizations of written text). But even in
> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
> Jules Laforgue).
> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
> can be surprising and wonderful too.
> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>
> "Postcard"
>
> Here the weather
> is so vacation
> and my wife,
> we are having wonderful
> tennis. [...]
>
> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
> training's mostly in French.
>
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
> c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban  
> derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel  
> s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Thu Sep 28 17:43:30 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:43:30 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
In-Reply-To: <005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu>
	<16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com>
	<005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <3AE8482C-BFB2-44C5-B619-4935466D1CB8@bigpond.com>

John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf  
(don't know which ear).
He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm  
theory to the test by
aligning it with Snow's poetry.




On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
> partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an  
> illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I  
> can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he  
> profoundly disagrees with me on this)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anthony Lawrence
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
> One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said  
> that when Berryman walked in
> he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen.  
> One of my favourite stories
> from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the  
> petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
> an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet  
> called John Manifold. Manifold
> wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that  
> Manifold made it from Queensland
> to Iowa.
>
> On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>> I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If  
>> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account  
>> for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not  
>> that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to  
>> wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the  
>> foreground, it seems.
>>
>> Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as  
>> I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely  
>> with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in  
>> rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.   
>> I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with  
>> Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who  
>> were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free  
>> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early  
>> Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is  
>> taken (and sounds) like free verse.
>>
>> I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent  
>> books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.   
>> Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago:
>>
>>
>> A Theory of Prosody
>>
>> When Nellie, my old pussy
>> cat, was still in her prime,
>> she would sit behind me
>> as I wrote, and when the line
>> got too long she'd reach
>> one sudden black foreleg down
>> and paw at the moving hand,
>> the offensive one. The first
>> time she drew blood I learned
>> it was poetic to end
>> a line anywhere to keep her
>> quiet. After all, many morn-
>> ings she'd gotten to the chair
>> long before I was even up.
>> Those nights I couldn't sleep
>> she'd come and sit in my lap
>> to calm me. So I figured
>> I owed her the short cat line.
>> She's dead now almost nine years,
>> and before that there was one
>> during which she faked attention
>> and I faked obedience.
>> Isn't that what it's about--
>> pretending there's an alert cat
>> who leaves nothing to chance.
>>
>> --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
>> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
>>> or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
>>> of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
>>> (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>>> important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
>>> many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>>> poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>>> merely by the habit of the poet.
>>>
>>> The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of  
>>> the
>>> free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
>>> handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very  
>>> differently
>>> with one's ouevre.
>>>
>>> What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
>>> in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
>>> Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>>>
>>> Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important  
>>> arbitrary
>>> limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
>>> if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
>>> of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>>>
>>> Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>>> on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
>>> contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>>> How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
>>> How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
>>> How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
>>> consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>>> syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
>>> complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>>> what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
>>> of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>>> occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
>>> employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
>>> could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>>>
>>> Finnegan
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ==========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/7732b8b8/attachment.html>

From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 17:57:05 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:57:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu><16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com><005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<3AE8482C-BFB2-44C5-B619-4935466D1CB8@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <007201c6e349$0abf1310$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very much in nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, it is a vague memory.

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony Lawrence 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry. 








  On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anthony Lawrence 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said that when Berryman walked in 
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.   


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse.  


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago: 




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem 
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b683c456/attachment.html>

From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 17:56:30 2006
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
In-Reply-To: <200609282133.k8SLXroQ002824@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20060928215630.62235.qmail@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dave,
Love the poem! Thanks and kudos. 
But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
this might be where you're drawing the line between
chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
stuff.
Correct me if I'm all wrong?
Yours,
Alex

"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 17:58:32 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:58:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4@mail.gmail.com>

Stress? Don't talk to me about stress! I've got a pain in the dipodes
all down my left side. Marvin do this, Marvin do that. Brain the size
of the planet and all you want me to do is talk about MFA courses? I
think I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water.

On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dipodes are stressed.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
>  Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>
>
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>  > We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and
> > it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables >
> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ...
>
>  First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress. The
> classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think -- am I
> right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The Concept
> of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone wants to
> check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though.
>
>  Robin
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  ________________________________
>  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
> free AOL Mail and more.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 18:01:19 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:01:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu><16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com>
	<005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

<<
Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf 
(in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and 
hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his 
non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on 
this)

Best

Dave
>>

Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw, which 
does make it difficult to grind them.

OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or so 
ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting 
waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?

I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are 
flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.

(And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame 
yourself!

            http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm 
  )

Robin




From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 18:28:59 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:28:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu><16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com><005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <008101c6e34d$7ffc5cb0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Busy watching 'Dogma' on C4 here, which as funny as its reputation, Rob, but
one thing I will say is that I love your homage poem to Berryman.

So there, that's a compliment!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


> <<
> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf
> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and
> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
> this)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
> >>
>
> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw,
which
> does make it difficult to grind them.
>
> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or
so
> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting
> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>
> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are
> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>
> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
> yourself!
>
>
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm
>   )
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 18:55:19 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:55:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
References: <20060928215630.62235.qmail@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c6e351$2f92be00$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Alexander:

syntactic play is exactly it, a bit late on the night to here elaborate
further, but thanks!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 19:36:12 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:36:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271902450.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu><A8139027-A5DF-4296-9346-F91129B972AE@bigpond.com><00ca01c6e2aa$6d400e30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><fde503480609280704v3af9aaeelc604070ec72f42de@mail.gmail.com><016e01c6e324$09425df0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><014101c6e326$25232340$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><01ce01c6e328$a7788bd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721><01a601c6e328$e6f32810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<002a01c6e333$6b00a740$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <000b01c6e356$e2408690$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

And no one can bend it like Beckham.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


>> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.
>
> Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Thu Sep 28 19:57:43 2006
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:57:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
References: <20060928215630.62235.qmail@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c6e359$e4d24da0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Alexander

Briefly, going back to this, asymmetry is one of the targets of the poem. It
attempts to talk the 'way we talk', in that its structure tries to reflect
things 'happening', without plan. I would have a criticisism of it in the
lines:

>and a man from Animal Rights
came round to strangle her<

in that they reflect rather than project the way Vicky talks, I wouldn't say
in that rather child-like way 'a man from Animal Rights' but Vicky would, so
there is a slip of atristic control there.

This is a late night epistle!

All the Best

Dave



----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From queenmouse at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 19:59:59 2006
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
In-Reply-To: <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609271827250.7716@hymn10.u.washington.edu>
	<5228650.1159446120271.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<014901c6e321$d41acd30$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<8C8B13AD3669B8A-3DC-1915@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
	<fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0609281659q50660459re70a3704b2bd258c@mail.gmail.com>

Pulling your dipodes can be very serious, man. That can throw the Korsch's
caesura into a spasm and then-- ouch.  Much worse than a torn tercet, and I
speak from experience here.

I have arnica cream which is very good for that sort of thing, but you'll
also need to ice them and STAY OFF THEM until they get a little more
unstressed and trochaic.

Cheers,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/d02eb4dc/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 20:01:45 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
References: <20060928212627.465.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c6e35a$742b14a0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

The difference is probably like Potter Stewart's definition of hard-core 
pornography -- "I know it when I see it."

When free verse is successful (and that's a matter of personal taste, 
finally) it sounds like verse. It swings, it hops, it stutters, it has 
language that calls attention to itself in a good way, it has the 
compression and resonance we go to poetry for. When we don't find those 
things, we say it sounds like chopped up prose.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics


> >There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>>tradition, at least, behind
>>it,
>>and there's chopped-up prose ...
>
> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
> difference is between these two for so long I finally
> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
> oral realizations of written text). But even in
> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
> Jules Laforgue).
> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
> can be surprising and wonderful too.
> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>
> "Postcard"
>
> Here the weather
> is so vacation
> and my wife,
> we are having wonderful
> tennis. [...]
>
> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
> training's mostly in French.
>
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est 
> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere 
> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Thu Sep 28 20:02:36 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:02:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
References: <c6e.f83af6.324c1f2a@aol.com><24628E8E-3E76-487E-ADE3-28FBE3E1A77D@ripon.edu><16F686C6-AC51-4477-A85D-136897490A2F@bigpond.com><005601c6e345$acc63fc0$e3c60556@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<3AE8482C-BFB2-44C5-B619-4935466D1CB8@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c6e35a$92911020$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

And Yeats was tone-deaf.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony Lawrence 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry. 








  On 29/09/2006, at7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anthony Lawrence 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said that when Berryman walked in 
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.   


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse.  


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago: 




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?... 

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem 
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet? 
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b1d00d75/attachment.html>

From jfq at myuw.net  Thu Sep 28 23:35:08 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
In-Reply-To: <000601c6e32f$bbeae7a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu>

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>
>> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's  something I 
>> haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional prosody,and how 
>> is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book recommendation 
>> or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>
> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not the 
> most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.

And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.

> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one thing in 
> metrics and another in linguistics.

True, but my argument, and it is a contentious one I know, is that they are closely related topics and the former should be informed more formally by the latter than it has been lately. The central notion being that it's stupid to define Stress in one way as affects poesy and another way completely in matters of linguistics because surely the former again flows only from the latter, which itself is just an attempt to define an observed feature of the languages.



From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 29 00:55:46 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill and Andy: was I hate bla bla bla
In-Reply-To: <13546113.1159477513733.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282155460.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu>


This is an interesting distinction that you're making between rhythm and meter. It almost sounds as though you take meter to be sort of like the time signature in a piece of music? To my way of thinking the two things are much more intertwined than that, and meter isn't *just* a pulsing stress pattern beneath a poem. which isn't to say that it can't be treated like that, and both auden and eliot spring to mind as poets who've used that approach and been successful with it. but i don't think it's the end of where meter can go. I think you can also treat meter, as I do, as something generated by rhythm, which makes treating the components of rhythm something more valuable than I think you're giving it credit for being. And if that's the case, then having a more sophisticated set of components allows for greater subtlety in composition.

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:

> I'm taking advantage of Michael Peverett's excellent reply to say "Yeah, that's what I think." But I'd add that meter isn't a tool for critics--though of course they use it--but for poets. The rhythm of almost any line of metrical poetry is infinitely more complex than its meter because its rhythm comes from the interaction of the very simple contrastive stress (thanks, Robin, for reminding me of the term!) and the linguistic and rhetorical patterns of what's being said. (Again I'd agree with Robin that poetry belongs mainly, with a lot of nervous hedging and an apologetic tip of my hat to Bob G, on the spoken end of the visual-written-spoken spectrum). Again excepting dipodics and perhaps the triple meters as well, perhaps even pure trochaic verse, when you've named the meter, you've said almost nothing about the rhythm. That's what I meant when I wrote that metrical stress /dances/ with phonological stress, and I think it may be why iambic and purely accentual meters are e!
> specially favored in English verse. They make good dancing partners because they don't overwhelm natural speech.
>
> But there's no useful way to quantify, /from the point of view of a maker of poems/, that vast complexity of speech with which the meter dances. The poor poet would be in the position of the millipede considering which leg to move first. I don't claim that the linguistic matters jfq describes are wrong or uninteresting, just that I don't think a poet can use them to make poems. Only experience, thought, and lots of reading, all in support of a regular habit of writing (and, for me, speaking aloud what I've written) can build the skills which enable the making a good poem of any kind. I make mainly metrical poems, and when I do make a good poem the meter helps me. Other people make other kinds and make them well.
>
> On Thursday, September 28, 2006, at 12:38PM, <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I like the Shakes - though I think some of his later sonnets move more subtly -
>> and I think I quite like the Marvell too. But that's not my point.
>>
>> I feel a necessary distinction coming on between the metrical facts of the
>> poem and the poem's qualities as a whole, including auditory properties,
>> including rhythmic properties. Though these subsets keep narrowing even the
>> last one comprehends far more than the metrical facts, which I should say are
>> only those that are metrically relevant - e.g. to whether it keeps within
>> certain rules - and these can be fairly adequately described by traditional
>> means. Each of these extracts could be given a diagrammatic metrical
>> description but these would not tell you anything about whether the poetry was
>> good or not - I doubt if any metrical pattern is intrinsically vicious though
>> crusty scholars have sometimes implied the opposite.
>>
>> Metrically I see no distinction between the extracts other than different
>> intralineal pauses and some trochaic inversion in the Marvell - they're both
>> iambic pentameter, though the rhyme patterns are different. Yet of course
>> there's a world of difference between the two in rhythm, colour, heaviness vs
>> freshness, perkiness vs. effort, and so on, but this I think must be
>> approached by going far beyond what is metrically significant. Indeed I don't
>> think you can even draw a definite boundary to the discussion of these
>> differing effects by limiting it to what is auditory - you are bound to start
>> thinking about how the language itself had changed in those 70 years, and
>> about cultural changes and how each author thought his verse signified against
>> the broad backcloth of the other cultural and linguistic expressions around
>> him. It could be that these wider areas of discussion would benefit from some
>> agreed terminology but there are so many variables that few have ever become
>> established. Whereas the metrical descriptions have very wide currency, but at
>> the expense of only being descriptive of a small aspect of what's happening.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting jfq at myuw.net:
>>
>>> I think you're over reading into the things I've said to assume I think a
>>> writer should have one kind of life or another. Like i said, what kind of
>>> work a person does is pretty much neither here nor there. I'm glad you've had
>>> a good life. It sounded like you'd had a pretty shitty time from the events
>>> you described. But just to be clear about it, the fact that I think being a
>>> creative writing teacher is kind of a cushy job without a lot of value to it
>>> doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a log of good work to be done in all
>>> sorts of fields, including academia, by all sorts of people having all sorts
>>> of lives. That having been said, do you want this to continue as a flame war
>>> or do you want to talk like grown ups? Because if you want to continue the
>>> flame war, that's fine, I have no problem meeting fire with fire, it's just
>>> it gets kind of boring after a while and I get the feeling you're
>>> a smart guy with well considered ideas about poetry and therefore might be
>>> worth talking to if you could get over the urge to call my ideas pompous and
>>> inane just because you don't agree with them or like them or whatever.
>>>
>>> More to the point and in the interests of talking about something that's less
>>> of a waste of time than whose daddy's MFA program can kick whose Daddy's real
>>> world experiences' ass or whatever, i think it's interesting what you say
>>> about meter, particularly taking iambic pentameter to be a standard line. My
>>> problem with it is that it's always seemed really artificial to me and that
>>> unless it's done in a very particular way it sounds really clunky. an
>>> example:
>>> "Such did the manna's sacred dew distil ;
>>> White and entire, though congealed and chill ;
>>> Congealed on earth ; but does, dissolving, run
>>> Into the glories of the almighty sun."
>>>
>>> which is Marvell and to my ear sounds like a flat tire thumping along on a
>>> bad road, and I think because the largely mechanistic application of iambic
>>> pentameter does that when a poet pays too little attention to his unstressed
>>> syllables, which is what thinking in terms of a stressed/unstressed binary
>>> causes a poet to do. Compare that to a piece of Iambic pentameter that's done
>>> well:
>>>
>>> "I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
>>> That music hath a far more pleasing sound:
>>> I grant I never saw a goddess go,?
>>> My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:"
>>>
>>> Which I'm sure you recognize and I think illustrates well what a poet with at
>>> least a more intuitive understanding of the rhythms of natural language can
>>> do if he or she is more attendant to the subtleties of the true multistressed
>>> nature of English. Scan those with traditional english poetry and it looks
>>> like they have the same metrical structure. Yet it seems patently obvious to
>>> me that there is more going on with Bill than with Andy. Which is my
>>> criticism of traditional prosody that I was trying to level in the essay
>>> you're rejecting without much support: traditional prosody clings too much to
>>> classical linguistics which is far less sophisticated than the subtleties
>>> produced by the research of modern linguists who've produced many solid and
>>> scientific accounts of english prosody, which bear not a great deal of
>>> resemblance to the organizational structure offered by the aspect of poesy
>>> that's long gone by the same name.
>>> Which, incidentally, is also what I mean when I say it's derived from old
>>> dead languages, I don't mean that the quantitative verse of greek from which
>>> classical prosody derives its terminology has been grafted directly onto the
>>> language, it means I think that critics trying to come up with a good way to
>>> analyze the rhythm of poetry look too much to the past and to poems composed
>>> based largely on linguistic ideas founded on, in particular, anglo saxon and
>>> the romance languages rather than looking to the linguistic prosody of their
>>> own times and seeing what we can do with that.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've had a damned good life, actually, and I told you something about it in
>>> response to your inane and pompous assertions about what kind of life a
>>> writer needs to live because, beyond talent, all that really matters is
>>> willingness and opportunity to do hard work /at writing/.
>>>>
>>>> Concerning meter and stress, a sophisticated linguist such as you should
>>> know that the signifier is not the signified, and that the accident that we
>>> use names derived from classical quantitative meters has almost nothing to do
>>> with the practice of English language poets. We could call the standard line
>>> of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and it would still be ten syllables
>>> with each of the even numbered syllables more strongly stressed than the
>>> syllable immediately preceding it, and an inversion in the first foot would
>>> still be a standard variation on that line if we called it a swayback.
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 09:28PM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> wow, you've had a hard life. that's rough. why are you telling me all
>>> this? i'm tempted to flame you back because you're being rude for no reason,
>>> but whatever. this has gone on far too long and there are far too many
>>> assholes on this list being far too defensive about offhand remarks that were
>>> never in anyway intended as a challenge to anyone's life who is not currently
>>> living in an MFA program, and which themselves only apply to the domain of
>>> "whether or not a certain kind of thing is good for writing."
>>>>>
>>>>> i'll just say what I say to everyone who disagrees with me about meter:
>>> you're wrong, the reason you're wrong is that poetic prosody is an old
>>> fiction based on languages other than modern english and should be replaced
>>> with linguistic prosody. and that's all I have to say about that beyond what
>>> I said in the essay you read but didn't understand. If you'd like to talk
>>> about this further, you can stop being such a dick and i'll happily talk to
>>> you like a human being. As of right now, though, you're hardly worth my
>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Mike Snider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I see you know as much about life and work as you do about stress in
>>> English accentual-syllabic poetry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've taught freshman comp and creative writing (7 years) and
>>> middle-school Spanish (1 year), been a tool-and-die maker's apprentice (2
>>> years), a roofer (one year), a carpenter (mostly framing, 5 years), a
>>> programmer (three times, for 7, 3, and 5 years), a dishwasher (one year),
>>> played music semiprofessionally during almost all that time, attended at
>>> least one class every semester from first grade (1959) to 1991, studying
>>> everything from metallurgy to prosody, been married twice (12 years each
>>> time), raised two stepchildren, had my daughter and first wife stolen from me
>>> by recovered memory fetishists, lost everything I owned twice (even my dog
>>> died the first time that happened), and watched my father take 9 years dying,
>>> during five of which he didn't know who I was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only thing that makes better poems is working on poems, and that's a
>>> hell of a lot easier to do when you're well-fed and rested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And however many phonological stress-levels there are in English, there's
>>> only stressed and unstressed in English A/C poetry (except dipodics), and
>>> they dance with phonological stress.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006, at 10:41AM, <jfq at myuw.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i never said i had an interesting job, i said I have a full time job.
>>> unlike part time assistant college professors who babysit workshops full of
>>> bad poets. Any job is more real than that. even shuffling papers and
>>> particularly trying to teach people things, because if that were the goal,
>>> one wouldn't get an MFA in order to try to reach it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it happens I do find my work very interesting and intellectually
>>> stimulating, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that you consider a
>>> grueling fifteen hour work week on top of the trials and tribulations of
>>> deciding what to have for dinner and doing your laundry to be living anyplace
>>> other than fantasy island really castrates your snark before it has a chance
>>> to get going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 almaginnes at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm assuming that jfqz or whoever he is has a real world job like
>>> mercenary soldier, underwater demolition expert, ER surgeon, helicopter
>>> pilot, large animal tariner, something spicy and dangerous, unlike the rest
>>> of us drones whosimply shuffle papers and try to teach people things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: jimgoar at yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 9:34 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just an FYI, an MFA only lasts for 2 or 3 years. After that, and maybe
>>> even during it, we work like any other stiff. What do you think an MFA does
>>> after s/he graduates? After I graduated I went to Bangkok for a year and then
>>> to Seoul for two years. Am going back in a few weeks. Hell guys, this
>>> argument is lame. You'll miss out on some good poems if you only read folks
>>> that have/have not gone to an MFA program. Lots of bad poetry being written.
>>> Just glad that I write the best poetry in the history of the universe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A question. What sort of job should I take so that my poetry can be
>>> even better? What job do you have that makes your poetry so good (though,
>>> obviously, not as good as mine)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>>>
>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and
>>> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across
>>> the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>>>>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>>> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://www.mikesnider.org/formalblog for the Sonnetarium
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 29 01:54:34 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <010801c6e38b$bfac57a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not 
>> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>
> And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and 
> Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.

Well, George Bernard Shaw would have agreed with you, as he immortalised the 
author in the figure of Professor Henry Higgins in Pygmalion.  More reliable 
might be David Abercrombie, +Elements of General Phonetics+ or A.C.Gimson, 
+An Introduction to the Pronunciation of English+.

But I'm a little out of date here (though even I don't go back to Henry 
Sweet) so maybe someone -- Michael Peverett? -- could direct us to a nice 
introductory cutting-edge text.

Robin 




From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 29 03:00:55 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
In-Reply-To: <010801c6e38b$bfac57a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609290000550.30478@hymn06.u.washington.edu>

sorry, i was confusing two books in my head. the one I meant to recommend was Peter Roach's +English Phonetics and Phonology+, which is pretty current. The one that made me give that title was +Applied Phonetics: The Sounds of American English+ by Harold Edwards, which is also very recent and good.

I've never read a book called The Sounds of English.


On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not 
>>> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>> 
>> And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and 
>> Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.
>
> Well, George Bernard Shaw would have agreed with you, as he immortalised the 
> author in the figure of Professor Henry Higgins in Pygmalion.  More reliable 
> might be David Abercrombie, +Elements of General Phonetics+ or A.C.Gimson, +An 
> Introduction to the Pronunciation of English+.
>
> But I'm a little out of date here (though even I don't go back to Henry Sweet) 
> so maybe someone -- Michael Peverett? -- could direct us to a nice introductory 
> cutting-edge text.
>
> Robin _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 29 03:05:08 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa Shaw Shaw
In-Reply-To: <010801c6e38b$bfac57a0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609290005080.30478@hymn06.u.washington.edu>


I really do love George Bernard Shaw. I saw Major Barbara at the Ashland Shakespeare festival when I was 12 and it's stuck with me ever since. "MONEY and GUNPOWDER." what a great writer.

I've always thought higgins was supposed to be a bit of a parody though. granted, I haven't read Pygmalion since I was young and impressionable, and my thoughts have no doubt been colored by My Fair Lady since then.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not 
>>> the most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>> 
>> And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and 
>> Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.
>
> Well, George Bernard Shaw would have agreed with you, as he immortalised the 
> author in the figure of Professor Henry Higgins in Pygmalion.  More reliable 
> might be David Abercrombie, +Elements of General Phonetics+ or A.C.Gimson, +An 
> Introduction to the Pronunciation of English+.
>
> But I'm a little out of date here (though even I don't go back to Henry Sweet) 
> so maybe someone -- Michael Peverett? -- could direct us to a nice introductory 
> cutting-edge text.
>
> Robin _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From amparker at davidson.edu  Fri Sep 29 08:54:08 2006
From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:54:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
References: <200609290336.k8T3ZsoO008076@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>

 
Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one eye accounts for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I resent the epic implications....
 
- AMP
________________________________

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thu 9/28/2006 11:35 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55



Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
        new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu

You can reach the person managing the list at
        new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
   2. dave bircumshaw's poem (Alexander Dickow)
   3. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Roger Day)
   4. Re: Levine's prosody (Robin Hamilton)
   5. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
   6. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
   7. Re: What Work Is (TheOldMole)
   8. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
   9. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Suzanne Burns)
  10. Re: free verse vs metrics (TheOldMole)
  11. Re: Levine's prosody (TheOldMole)
  12. Re: mfa bla bla (jfq at myuw.net)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:57:05 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <007201c6e349$0abf1310$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very much in nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, it is a vague memory.

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthony Lawrence
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry.








  On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Anthony Lawrence
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said that when Berryman walked in
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.  


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse. 


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago:




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b683c456/attachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alexander Dickow <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <20060928215630.62235.qmail at web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Dave,
Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
this might be where you're drawing the line between
chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
stuff.
Correct me if I'm all wrong?
Yours,
Alex

"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:58:32 +0100
From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Stress? Don't talk to me about stress! I've got a pain in the dipodes
all down my left side. Marvin do this, Marvin do that. Brain the size
of the planet and all you want me to do is talk about MFA courses? I
think I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water.

On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dipodes are stressed.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
>  Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>
>
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>  > We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle and
> > it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables >
> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ...
>
>  First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress. The
> classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think -- am I
> right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The Concept
> of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone wants to
> check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though.
>
>  Robin
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  ________________________________
>  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
> free AOL Mail and more.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:01:19 +0100
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0 at pc2b565f661721>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

<<
Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf
(in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and
hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
this)

Best

Dave
>>

Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw, which
does make it difficult to grind them.

OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or so
ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting
waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?

I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are
flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.

(And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
yourself!

            http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm
  )

Robin




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:28:59 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008101c6e34d$7ffc5cb0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Busy watching 'Dogma' on C4 here, which as funny as its reputation, Rob, but
one thing I will say is that I love your homage poem to Berryman.

So there, that's a compliment!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


> <<
> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf
> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and
> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
> this)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
> >>
>
> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw,
which
> does make it difficult to grind them.
>
> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or
so
> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting
> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>
> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are
> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>
> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
> yourself!
>
>
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm
>   )
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:55:19 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008d01c6e351$2f92be00$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Alexander:

syntactic play is exactly it, a bit late on the night to here elaborate
further, but thanks!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:36:12 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c6e356$e2408690$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=response

And no one can bend it like Beckham.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


>> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.
>
> Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:57:43 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <00ab01c6e359$e4d24da0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Alexander

Briefly, going back to this, asymmetry is one of the targets of the poem. It
attempts to talk the 'way we talk', in that its structure tries to reflect
things 'happening', without plan. I would have a criticisism of it in the
lines:

>and a man from Animal Rights
came round to strangle her<

in that they reflect rather than project the way Vicky talks, I wouldn't say
in that rather child-like way 'a man from Animal Rights' but Vicky would, so
there is a slip of atristic control there.

This is a late night epistle!

All the Best

Dave



----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:59 -0400
From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <aa458fec0609281659q50660459re70a3704b2bd258c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Pulling your dipodes can be very serious, man. That can throw the Korsch's
caesura into a spasm and then-- ouch.  Much worse than a torn tercet, and I
speak from experience here.

I have arnica cream which is very good for that sort of thing, but you'll
also need to ice them and STAY OFF THEM until they get a little more
unstressed and trochaic.

Cheers,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/d02eb4dc/attachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:45 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008b01c6e35a$742b14a0$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

The difference is probably like Potter Stewart's definition of hard-core
pornography -- "I know it when I see it."

When free verse is successful (and that's a matter of personal taste,
finally) it sounds like verse. It swings, it hops, it stutters, it has
language that calls attention to itself in a good way, it has the
compression and resonance we go to poetry for. When we don't find those
things, we say it sounds like chopped up prose.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics


> >There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>>tradition, at least, behind
>>it,
>>and there's chopped-up prose ...
>
> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
> difference is between these two for so long I finally
> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
> oral realizations of written text). But even in
> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
> Jules Laforgue).
> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
> can be surprising and wonderful too.
> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>
> "Postcard"
>
> Here the weather
> is so vacation
> and my wife,
> we are having wonderful
> tennis. [...]
>
> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
> training's mostly in French.
>
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:02:36 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <00a201c6e35a$92911020$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

And Yeats was tone-deaf.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthony Lawrence
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry.








  On 29/09/2006, at7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Anthony Lawrence
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said that when Berryman walked in
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them, though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.  


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.  Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like free verse. 


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books, but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical response from a few books ago:




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery, Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b1d00d75/attachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: jfq at myuw.net
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973 at hymn05.u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>
>> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's  something I
>> haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional prosody,and how
>> is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book recommendation
>> or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>
> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not the
> most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.

And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.

> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one thing in
> metrics and another in linguistics.

True, but my argument, and it is a contentious one I know, is that they are closely related topics and the former should be informed more formally by the latter than it has been lately. The central notion being that it's stupid to define Stress in one way as affects poesy and another way completely in matters of linguistics because surely the former again flows only from the latter, which itself is just an attempt to define an observed feature of the languages.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
******************************************


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 45876 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/67efceb4/attachment.bin>

From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 10:53:03 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:53:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
References: <200609290336.k8T3ZsoO008076@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
Message-ID: <648208b60609290753k537bded8ke8d97a6f0069f9d9@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/29/06, Parker, Alan Michael <amparker at davidson.edu> wrote:
>
> Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one eye accounts for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I resent the epic implications....

How tall is Goldbarth?

BTW, David Graham resembles his narrative poems.  And he has all his
faculties!  As a matter of fact, he *is* faculty.

-- Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 29 11:07:01 2006
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:07:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <648208b60609290753k537bded8ke8d97a6f0069f9d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200609290336.k8T3ZsoO008076@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
	<648208b60609290753k537bded8ke8d97a6f0069f9d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E991C9D6-20C5-4807-BD33-0DF1EA94683F@earthlink.net>

Hmm, is it any accident that 6/7s of "faculty" is "faulty"?

Hal

"The only thing that is not art
  is inattention."
              --Marcel Duchamp

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

On Sep 29, 2006, at 10:53 AM, James Cervantes wrote:

> On 9/29/06, Parker, Alan Michael <amparker at davidson.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one  
>> eye accounts for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I  
>> resent the epic implications....
>
> How tall is Goldbarth?
>
> BTW, David Graham resembles his narrative poems.  And he has all his
> faculties!  As a matter of fact, he *is* faculty.
>
> -- Jim
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
> ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From skip at louisiana.edu  Fri Sep 29 11:56:15 2006
From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:56:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
Message-ID: <003201c6e3df$d13f8150$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>

Alan,

 

Agreed.

 

Yet if I remember correctly, Duncan claimed at least some of his sense of
poetic collage where "multiple images coexist" came from a bifurcation due
to his eye condition. (His eyes were somewhat crossed.) It's hard to tell
how one's physical condition might affect his or her work . . . and whether
another can determine that's the case, much less to what extent. That is I
agree, though I realize that such speculations on the work-body relationship
might be useful if put forth _as_ speculations, just as I would allow for
the very real possibility of the relationship's existence.

 

(Actually it's more typical to say that the intensity of Creeley's focus
came from the fact he only had a single eye.)

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Parker, Alan Michael [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On
Behalf Of Parker, Alan Michael
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:54 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55

 

 

Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one eye accounts
for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I resent the epic
implications....

 

- AMP

  _____  

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thu 9/28/2006 11:35 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55

Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
        new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu

You can reach the person managing the list at
        new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
   2. dave bircumshaw's poem (Alexander Dickow)
   3. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Roger Day)
   4. Re: Levine's prosody (Robin Hamilton)
   5. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
   6. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
   7. Re: What Work Is (TheOldMole)
   8. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
   9. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Suzanne Burns)
  10. Re: free verse vs metrics (TheOldMole)
  11. Re: Levine's prosody (TheOldMole)
  12. Re: mfa bla bla (jfq at myuw.net)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:57:05 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <007201c6e349$0abf1310$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very much in
nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. Correct me if I'm wrong
about that, it is a vague memory.

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthony Lawrence
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't
know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to
the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry.








  On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially
deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy)
and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Anthony Lawrence
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said
that when Berryman walked in
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One
of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called
John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that
Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If
you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for
everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the
questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them,
though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.  


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm
being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.
Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then
joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know
that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some
friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free
versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is
in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like
free verse. 


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books,
but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical
response from a few books ago:




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com>
wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of
the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets
and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery,
Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important
arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the
end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b683c456/at
tachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alexander Dickow <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <20060928215630.62235.qmail at web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Dave,
Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
this might be where you're drawing the line between
chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
stuff.
Correct me if I'm all wrong?
Yours,
Alex

"Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est du
manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere laquelle
les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:58:32 +0100
From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Stress? Don't talk to me about stress! I've got a pain in the dipodes
all down my left side. Marvin do this, Marvin do that. Brain the size
of the planet and all you want me to do is talk about MFA courses? I
think I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water.

On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dipodes are stressed.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
>  Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>
>
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>  > We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a thwarptingle
and
> > it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered syllables
>
> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ...
>
>  First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress. The
> classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think -- am I
> right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The
Concept
> of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone wants
to
> check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though.
>
>  Robin
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  ________________________________
>  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
> free AOL Mail and more.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:01:19 +0100
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0 at pc2b565f661721>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

<<
Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf
(in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and
hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
this)

Best

Dave
>>

Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw, which
does make it difficult to grind them.

OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or so
ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting
waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?

I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are
flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.

(And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
yourself!

 
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm
  )

Robin




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:28:59 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008101c6e34d$7ffc5cb0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Busy watching 'Dogma' on C4 here, which as funny as its reputation, Rob, but
one thing I will say is that I love your homage poem to Berryman.

So there, that's a compliment!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


> <<
> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially deaf
> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy) and
> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
> this)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
> >>
>
> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower jaw,
which
> does make it difficult to grind them.
>
> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a week or
so
> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was sitting
> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>
> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms here are
> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>
> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
> yourself!
>
>
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm
>   )
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:55:19 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008d01c6e351$2f92be00$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Alexander:

syntactic play is exactly it, a bit late on the night to here elaborate
further, but thanks!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:36:12 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c6e356$e2408690$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=response

And no one can bend it like Beckham.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is


>> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.
>
> Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:57:43 +0100
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <00ab01c6e359$e4d24da0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Alexander

Briefly, going back to this, asymmetry is one of the targets of the poem. It
attempts to talk the 'way we talk', in that its structure tries to reflect
things 'happening', without plan. I would have a criticisism of it in the
lines:

>and a man from Animal Rights
came round to strangle her<

in that they reflect rather than project the way Vicky talks, I wouldn't say
in that rather child-like way 'a man from Animal Rights' but Vicky would, so
there is a slip of atristic control there.

This is a late night epistle!

All the Best

Dave



----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem


> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:59 -0400
From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <aa458fec0609281659q50660459re70a3704b2bd258c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Pulling your dipodes can be very serious, man. That can throw the Korsch's
caesura into a spasm and then-- ouch.  Much worse than a torn tercet, and I
speak from experience here.

I have arnica cream which is very good for that sort of thing, but you'll
also need to ice them and STAY OFF THEM until they get a little more
unstressed and trochaic.

Cheers,

Suzanne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/d02eb4dc/at
tachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:45 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <008b01c6e35a$742b14a0$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

The difference is probably like Potter Stewart's definition of hard-core
pornography -- "I know it when I see it."

When free verse is successful (and that's a matter of personal taste,
finally) it sounds like verse. It swings, it hops, it stutters, it has
language that calls attention to itself in a good way, it has the
compression and resonance we go to poetry for. When we don't find those
things, we say it sounds like chopped up prose.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics


> >There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>>tradition, at least, behind
>>it,
>>and there's chopped-up prose ...
>
> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
> difference is between these two for so long I finally
> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
> oral realizations of written text). But even in
> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
> Jules Laforgue).
> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
> can be surprising and wonderful too.
> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>
> "Postcard"
>
> Here the weather
> is so vacation
> and my wife,
> we are having wonderful
> tennis. [...]
>
> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
> training's mostly in French.
>
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde, c'est
> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:02:36 -0400
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <00a201c6e35a$92911020$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

And Yeats was tone-deaf.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anthony Lawrence
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


  John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf (don't
know which ear).
  He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm theory to
the test by
  aligning it with Snow's poetry.








  On 29/09/2006, at7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:


    Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was partially
deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in infancy)
and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with me on
this)

    Best

    Dave


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Anthony Lawrence
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
      Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody


      One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine has said
that when Berryman walked in
      he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to happen. One
of my favourite stories
      from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
      an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian poet called
John Manifold. Manifold
      wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that
Manifold made it from Queensland
      to Iowa.


      On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:


        I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most part.  If
you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for
everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that the
questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle with them,
though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.  


        Levine's mature work is quite different from his early stuff, as I'm
being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a student.
Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early on, then
joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent readers know
that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him still.  Some
friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on free
versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early Levine is
in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and sounds) like
free verse. 


        I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in recent books,
but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a whimsical
response from a few books ago:




        A Theory of Prosody

        When Nellie, my old pussy
        cat, was still in her prime,
        she would sit behind me
        as I wrote, and when the line
        got too long she'd reach
        one sudden black foreleg down
        and paw at the moving hand,
        the offensive one. The first
        time she drew blood I learned
        it was poetic to end
        a line anywhere to keep her
        quiet. After all, many morn-
        ings she'd gotten to the chair
        long before I was even up.
        Those nights I couldn't sleep
        she'd come and sit in my lap
        to calm me. So I figured
        I owed her the short cat line.
        She's dead now almost nine years,
        and before that there was one
        during which she faked attention
        and I faked obedience.
        Isn't that what it's about--
        pretending there's an alert cat
        who leaves nothing to chance.

        --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.



        On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com> <JforJames at aol.com>
wrote:


          I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
          or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at the end
          of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one element
          (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
          important to the construct a particular poem, or to the making of
          many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
          poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
          merely by the habit of the poet.

          The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary technique of
the
          free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by many poets
and
          handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
differently
          with one's ouevre.

          What can one say difinitively and importantly about the linebreak
          in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery,
Gluck,
          Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...

          Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most important
arbitrary
          limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to the poem
          if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to indent the
end
          of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?

          Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
          on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
          contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
          How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
          How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or interrupted?
          How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
          consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
          syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
          complement somewhere in the prior passage or
          what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
          of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
          occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and short
          employed. And almost all these questions related to linebreak
          could then be asked about the start of the successive line.

          Finnegan






        ==========================================
        David Graham
        grahamd at ripon.edu
        Home Page:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
        Poetry Library:
        http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
        ==========================================






        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/b1d00d75/at
tachment-0001.html

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: jfq at myuw.net
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID:
        <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973 at hymn05.u.washington.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>
>> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's
something I
>> haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional prosody,and
how
>> is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book
recommendation
>> or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>
> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).  It's not
the
> most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.

And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English Phonetics and
Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.

> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one thing in
> metrics and another in linguistics.

True, but my argument, and it is a contentious one I know, is that they are
closely related topics and the former should be informed more formally by
the latter than it has been lately. The central notion being that it's
stupid to define Stress in one way as affects poesy and another way
completely in matters of linguistics because surely the former again flows
only from the latter, which itself is just an attempt to define an observed
feature of the languages.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
******************************************

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: winmail.dat
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 52980 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/950c8974/attachment.bin>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 29 12:00:02 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:00:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <015d01c6e3e0$538914f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

> The central notion being that it's stupid to define Stress in one way as 
> affects poesy and another way completely in matters of linguistics because 
> surely the former again flows only from the latter, which itself is just 
> an attempt to define an observed feature of the languages.

I don't think this *is the case.  It's not that linguists see stress as one 
thing and metricists as another, as that they use the material in different 
ways.  (And anyway, "stress" itself begs a hell of a lot of questions -- is 
it amplitude, accent, length, position on a tone-boundary, uncle tom cobbley 
and all?).

No metricist (at least not me) would quarrel with the idea that there are 
more than two degrees of stress to be observed in spoken English, though 
some -- me, certainly -- would barf at the privileging of four degrees of 
stress rather than any other number.  Although I suppose there is a case to 
be made that we recognise and on some level tend to respond to that number. 
It's the difference between what exists and what's perceived (as 
significant).

Where -- or at least one place -- the problem comes in is that, as with 
"prosody", stress is being used in a slightly different way in the two 
disciplines.  Strictly (though this is usually simply taken as read), 
"stress" in metrics refers to metrical stess (ictus) -- whether a syllable 
*counts/is perceived as "stressed".

In turn, this depends not on the absolute stress value of the syllable but 
in its relation to the surrounding syllables.  (Though this is less true of 
stress-metres compared to syllable-accent metres, where absolute stress is a 
larger factor.)

Sounds complicated, but actually it cuts away a hell of a lot of unnecessary 
junk.  The natural progression from Wimsatt and Beardsley's 
Metre/Abstraction argument is Josef Malof in +A Manual of English Meters+ 
[American spelling] where he (quite rightly) points out that there are only 
FOUR possible syllable-accent metres -- iambic, trochaic, anapestic and 
dactylic.  Forget about all that amphibrach nonsense.

(As long as you allow the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot  -- X  X  /  /  --  as 
the Bugger Factor.)

        ...   To a green thought in a green shade.

Caveat -- this mostly applies to syllable-accent metre in English.

Elsewhere, you say (responding to Mike Snider, I think): "This is an 
interesting distinction that you're making between rhythm and meter."

The distinction's a little more than interesting, it's bloody crucial (and 
again, something usually simply taken for granted).  Crudely, rhythm is the 
actual sound of a poem, metre the underlying pattern, and rhythm is 
generated by the tension between the natural speech stresses and the 
abstract metrical pattern.

(The most horrendous cock-up in this area in English poetry was between 
about 1540 and 1580 when it seemed that virtually everyone was obsessed by 
matching natural speech stress *exactly to the iambic metre.  THAT was when 
you really had the de-DUM-de-DUM-de-DUM <yawn> tedious iambic drum-beat 
dominating poems.)

Incidentally, could you repost the URL of your article on metrics?  Can't 
find it hunting back through the New Poetry posts.

Robin 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep 29 12:11:33 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:11:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Meter & rhythm
In-Reply-To: <015d01c6e3e0$538914f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu>
	<015d01c6e3e0$538914f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <1FCF34D1-3CAD-4067-B369-37398FA888C8@ripon.edu>

 From this morning's reading, Robert Hass's very intriguing and  
quirky essay, "One Body:  Some Notes on Form."

A possibly provocative snippet:

"It has always interested me that, if you define meter as the  
constant, and the rhythmic play of different sounds through meter as  
the variant, then meter itself can never be heard.  Every embodiment  
is a variation on the meter.  One-TWO is a rhythmic variant on the  
pure iamb and three-FOUR is another.  The pure iamb in fact can't be  
rendered; it only exists as a felt principle of order, beneath all  
possible embodiments, in the mind of the listener.  It exists in  
silence, is invisible, unspeakable.  An imagination of order.  A  
music of the spheres."

The whole essay's well worth pondering.

On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> The distinction's a little more than interesting, it's bloody  
> crucial (and again, something usually simply taken for granted).   
> Crudely, rhythm is the actual sound of a poem, metre the underlying  
> pattern, and rhythm is generated by the tension between the natural  
> speech stresses and the abstract metrical pattern.
>
> (The most horrendous cock-up in this area in English poetry was  
> between about 1540 and 1580 when it seemed that virtually everyone  
> was obsessed by matching natural speech stress *exactly to the  
> iambic metre.  THAT was when you really had the de-DUM-de-DUM-de- 
> DUM <yawn> tedious iambic drum-beat dominating poems.)
>
> Incidentally, could you repost the URL of your article on metrics?   
> Can't find it hunting back through the New Poetry posts.
>
> Robin


==========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
==========================================



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/f65016a9/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 29 12:30:10 2006
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:30:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Meter & rhythm
References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973@hymn05.u.washington.edu><015d01c6e3e0$538914f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
	<1FCF34D1-3CAD-4067-B369-37398FA888C8@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <018701c6e3e4$8c9d5e50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>

<<
>From this morning's reading, Robert Hass's very intriguing and quirky essay, 
"One Body:  Some Notes on Form."

A possibly provocative snippet:
>>

Thanks for drawing attention to this, David.  Only I can't see what's 
provocative about it.  Seems to me pretty much inarguable, and nicely put. 
(Hints of Wallace Stevens in the wording Hass uses?)

Robin

        **********************************

"It has always interested me that, if you define meter as the constant, and 
the rhythmic play of different sounds through meter as the variant, then 
meter itself can never be heard.  Every embodiment is a variation on the 
meter.  One-TWO is a rhythmic variant on the pure iamb and three-FOUR is 
another.  The pure iamb in fact can't be rendered; it only exists as a felt 
principle of order, beneath all possible embodiments, in the mind of the 
listener.  It exists in silence, is invisible, unspeakable.  An imagination 
of order.  A music of the spheres."


The whole essay's well worth pondering. 




From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 12:56:17 2006
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 09:56:17 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <E991C9D6-20C5-4807-BD33-0DF1EA94683F@earthlink.net>
References: <200609290336.k8T3ZsoO008076@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B562CAEE3E@bobroberts.davidson.edu>
	<648208b60609290753k537bded8ke8d97a6f0069f9d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<E991C9D6-20C5-4807-BD33-0DF1EA94683F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <648208b60609290956u6a98fffbud29d4c73dd33ddaa@mail.gmail.com>

Someone, a couple of years back, actually blacked out the "c" of the
sign on the Faculty Men restroom.

- Jim

On 9/29/06, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hmm, is it any accident that 6/7s of "faculty" is "faulty"?
>
> Hal
>
> "The only thing that is not art
>   is inattention."
>               --Marcel Duchamp
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
> On Sep 29, 2006, at 10:53 AM, James Cervantes wrote:
>
> > On 9/29/06, Parker, Alan Michael <amparker at davidson.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one
> >> eye accounts for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I
> >> resent the epic implications....
> >
> > How tall is Goldbarth?
> >
> > BTW, David Graham resembles his narrative poems.  And he has all his
> > faculties!  As a matter of fact, he *is* faculty.
> >
> > -- Jim
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> > ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
> > ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
> > ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning
~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/


From jfq at myuw.net  Fri Sep 29 13:39:02 2006
From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:39:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
In-Reply-To: <015d01c6e3e0$538914f0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609291039020.10897@hur11.myuw.net>




On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> I don't think this [that stress in poetry flows from stress in natural language] *is the case.  It's not that linguists see stress as one 
> thing and metricists as another, as that they use the material in different 
> ways.  (And anyway, "stress" itself begs a hell of a lot of questions -- is it 
> amplitude, accent, length, position on a tone-boundary, uncle tom cobbley and 
> all?).

Well, it is a complex subjective phenomena that has to do with vowel length, vowel position, relation to tone units, vocal tension, strength and weakness of nearby syllables, amplitude, and intonation as well as the morphological and moraic quirks of whatever dialect of English one reads in.

> No metricist (at least not me) would quarrel with the idea that there are more 
> than two degrees of stress to be observed in spoken English, though some -- me, 
> certainly -- would barf at the privileging of four degrees of stress rather 
> than any other number.  Although I suppose there is a case to be made that we 
> recognise and on some level tend to respond to that number. It's the difference 
> between what exists and what's perceived (as significant).

The reason I select four is that four is what I can easily identify in five and six syllable words without listening closely for differences. Those four levels are where variances in stress seem to fall to me. A lot of linguistic literature backs that up, although there are notable exceptions such Ladefoged who thinks there is a complementary rule to stressed and unstressed syllables that creates the impression of secondary and tertiary stress. Since I don't care if it's something that lab linguistics can determine objectively and as a poet I'm really only concerned with the subjective experience, I don't think that Ladefoged's objection to three levels of stress and unstressed being fairly natural categories really applies to the prosody of poetry.

> Where -- or at least one place -- the problem comes in is that, as with 
> "prosody", stress is being used in a slightly different way in the two 
> disciplines.  Strictly (though this is usually simply taken as read), "stress" 
> in metrics refers to metrical stess (ictus) -- whether a syllable *counts/is 
> perceived as "stressed".

the idea of ictus is one of the things that sent me looking for better ways of talking about poetic rhythm in the first place, actually. It was from there that I started investigation phonology and the prosody of linguistics to try to get a different angle on things. It just seems so goofy to me to take this idea of a meter as prior to the rhythm of the line and then super impose the accents implied by that meter on the line. For one thing, I find it aurally confusing and I just plain don't like being forced by a meter to read something other than the way I would read it in unbroken prose. It feels like a cheat to me, like there's something that's being glossed over in order to regularize language in a way that I'm aesthetically opposed to. Without wandering off into a huge tangent about poetics in general, I'll just say that the imposition of prior order is something that I think is a mistake 
in philosophies of all kinds, including a theory of art, and that it's the subject and not the object that an artist owes his allegiance too.

> In turn, this depends not on the absolute stress value of the syllable but in 
> its relation to the surrounding syllables.  (Though this is less true of 
> stress-metres compared to syllable-accent metres, where absolute stress is a 
> larger factor.)
>
> Sounds complicated, but actually it cuts away a hell of a lot of unnecessary 
> junk.

I think our fundamental disagreement is that I don't consider everything you're wanting to cut away junk. Or to put it another way: I find value in something you don't find value in and it's led us to evaluate extant theories divergently. What do you think?

>The natural progression from Wimsatt and Beardsley's Metre/Abstraction 
> argument is Josef Malof in +A Manual of English Meters+ [American spelling] 
> where he (quite rightly) points out that there are only FOUR possible 
> syllable-accent metres -- iambic, trochaic, anapestic and dactylic.  Forget 
> about all that amphibrach nonsense.

I'll have to read that book. Thanks for the recommendation.

> Elsewhere, you say (responding to Mike Snider, I think): "This is an 
> interesting distinction that you're making between rhythm and meter."
>
> The distinction's a little more than interesting, it's bloody crucial (and 
> again, something usually simply taken for granted).  Crudely, rhythm is the 
> actual sound of a poem, metre the underlying pattern, and rhythm is generated 
> by the tension between the natural speech stresses and the abstract metrical 
> pattern.

This is also where we disagree. I don't think meter underlies anything, I think it's if anything a sort of artificial scaffolding and a way of organizing the structure of a composition, and i think that choosing to work in regular meter (as opposed to open verse) is merely the poet setting compositional limits on him or herself. That can be done to very good effect as an impetus to creativity, and there are certainly ways that a regular meter can be used in order to imbue semantic content, but to my way of thinking the stresses of natural language area always already prior to any meter.

> (The most horrendous cock-up in this area in English poetry was between about 
> 1540 and 1580 when it seemed that virtually everyone was obsessed by matching 
> natural speech stress *exactly to the iambic metre.  THAT was when you really 
> had the de-DUM-de-DUM-de-DUM <yawn> tedious iambic drum-beat dominating poems.)

Which is, I think, where a lot of the confusion comes from, and also a lot of tortured syntax in a lot of really bad poetry. I think we can probably at least agree on that.:)

> Incidentally, could you repost the URL of your article on metrics?  Can't find
> it hunting back through the New Poetry posts.

I don't know that I ever posted it to New Poetry, but here it is:
http://www.wetasphalt.com/?q=node/65




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Sep 29 13:40:59 2006
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:40:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Meter & rhythm
In-Reply-To: <018701c6e3e4$8c9d5e50$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721>
Message-ID: <C142C4DB.BCEC%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Well, I don't find it too provocative, either.  But maybe that word was a
reflex on my part, since prosodists rarely agree on ANYTHING, especially
basic definitions!

I've always understood "rhythm" to be as Hass uses it, though I've noticed
not everyone seems to employ it that way.

Wouldn't be at all surprised to find Stevens lurking in anything Hass
writes.  




On 9/29/06 11:30 AM, "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for drawing attention to this, David.  Only I can't see what's
> provocative about it.  Seems to me pretty much inarguable, and nicely put.
> (Hints of Wallace Stevens in the wording Hass uses?)
> 
> Robin
> 
>         **********************************
> 
> "It has always interested me that, if you define meter as the constant, and
> the rhythmic play of different sounds through meter as the variant, then
> meter itself can never be heard.  Every embodiment is a variation on the
> meter.  One-TWO is a rhythmic variant on the pure iamb and three-FOUR is
> another.  The pure iamb in fact can't be rendered; it only exists as a felt
> principle of order, beneath all possible embodiments, in the mind of the
> listener.  It exists in silence, is invisible, unspeakable.  An imagination
> of order.  A music of the spheres."


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Sep 29 14:19:06 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:19:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] some interesting links
Message-ID: <002901c6e3f3$c0d5c130$d6af3452@ANNY>

http://etext.virginia.edu/collections/languages/english/

http://www.lib.virginia.edu/wess/etexts.html

http://vos.ucsb.edu/browse.asp?id=2747

 Scrap Leaves ("Allen's 1968 manuscript in hypertext") (Steve Silberman and Alex Vigdor) 



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060929/50d92e47/attachment.html>

From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Fri Sep 29 15:43:05 2006
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:43:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowler poets
Message-ID: <451D3F0E.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu>

"John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf
(don't know which ear).  He wrote poetry, too."

"Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very much
in nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. "

"And Yeats was tone-deaf."

Hypothesis: Pound was to Yeats as Ken Higgs was to John Snow. 
Discuss.

Alan, who just about remembers Trueman and Statham


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 17:33:44 2006
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 22:33:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] iggy pop & metre
Message-ID: <fde503480609291433k40e0e749sfb09fc011830af8e@mail.gmail.com>

If my memory serves me right iggy pop grew up wanting to imitate the
sounds of the car factories this is what i try to do with the blood in
my head

-- 
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
Suspicion breeds confidence


From ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com  Fri Sep 29 20:26:48 2006
From: ajlawrence1 at bigpond.com (Anthony Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:26:48 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <003201c6e3df$d13f8150$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
References: <003201c6e3df$d13f8150$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <5DE2EAB5-181F-4C1C-AF7B-26D35C846E04@bigpond.com>

> It's hard to tell
> how one's physical condition might affect his or her work


And so from physical disability to emotional/chemical. The number of  
major poets
who had or have depression or a bipolar illness makes for a long list  
indeed.



On 30/09/2006, at 1:56 AM, Skip Fox wrote:

> Alan,
>
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> Yet if I remember correctly, Duncan claimed at least some of his  
> sense of
> poetic collage where "multiple images coexist" came from a  
> bifurcation due
> to his eye condition. (His eyes were somewhat crossed.) It's hard  
> to tell
> how one's physical condition might affect his or her work . . . and  
> whether
> another can determine that's the case, much less to what extent.  
> That is I
> agree, though I realize that such speculations on the work-body  
> relationship
> might be useful if put forth _as_ speculations, just as I would  
> allow for
> the very real possibility of the relationship's existence.
>
>
>
> (Actually it's more typical to say that the intensity of Creeley's  
> focus
> came from the fact he only had a single eye.)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Parker, Alan Michael [mailto:new-poetry- 
> bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On
> Behalf Of Parker, Alan Michael
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:54 AM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
>
>
>
>
>
> Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one eye  
> accounts
> for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I resent the epic
> implications....
>
>
>
> - AMP
>
>   _____
>
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Thu 9/28/2006 11:35 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
>
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>         new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
>    2. dave bircumshaw's poem (Alexander Dickow)
>    3. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Roger Day)
>    4. Re: Levine's prosody (Robin Hamilton)
>    5. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
>    6. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
>    7. Re: What Work Is (TheOldMole)
>    8. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
>    9. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Suzanne Burns)
>   10. Re: free verse vs metrics (TheOldMole)
>   11. Re: Levine's prosody (TheOldMole)
>   12. Re: mfa bla bla (jfq at myuw.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:57:05 +0100
> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <007201c6e349$0abf1310$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very  
> much in
> nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. Correct me if  
> I'm wrong
> about that, it is a vague memory.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Anthony Lawrence
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>   Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:43 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
>
>   John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf  
> (don't
> know which ear).
>   He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm  
> theory to
> the test by
>   aligning it with Snow's poetry.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>
>
>     Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
> partially
> deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
> infancy)
> and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
> me on
> this)
>
>     Best
>
>     Dave
>
>
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: Anthony Lawrence
>       To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>       Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
>       Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
>
>       One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine  
> has said
> that when Berryman walked in
>       he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to  
> happen. One
> of my favourite stories
>       from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
> petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
>       an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian  
> poet called
> John Manifold. Manifold
>       wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that
> Manifold made it from Queensland
>       to Iowa.
>
>
>       On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>
>         I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most  
> part.  If
> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for
> everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that  
> the
> questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle  
> with them,
> though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>
>
>         Levine's mature work is quite different from his early  
> stuff, as I'm
> being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a  
> student.
> Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early  
> on, then
> joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent  
> readers know
> that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him  
> still.  Some
> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on  
> free
> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early  
> Levine is
> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and  
> sounds) like
> free verse.
>
>
>         I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in  
> recent books,
> but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
> whimsical
> response from a few books ago:
>
>
>
>
>         A Theory of Prosody
>
>         When Nellie, my old pussy
>         cat, was still in her prime,
>         she would sit behind me
>         as I wrote, and when the line
>         got too long she'd reach
>         one sudden black foreleg down
>         and paw at the moving hand,
>         the offensive one. The first
>         time she drew blood I learned
>         it was poetic to end
>         a line anywhere to keep her
>         quiet. After all, many morn-
>         ings she'd gotten to the chair
>         long before I was even up.
>         Those nights I couldn't sleep
>         she'd come and sit in my lap
>         to calm me. So I figured
>         I owed her the short cat line.
>         She's dead now almost nine years,
>         and before that there was one
>         during which she faked attention
>         and I faked obedience.
>         Isn't that what it's about--
>         pretending there's an alert cat
>         who leaves nothing to chance.
>
>         --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>
>
>
>         On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
> <JforJames at aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>           I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
>           or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at  
> the end
>           of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one  
> element
>           (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>           important to the construct a particular poem, or to the  
> making of
>           many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>           poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>           merely by the habit of the poet.
>
>           The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary  
> technique of
> the
>           free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by  
> many poets
> and
>           handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
> differently
>           with one's ouevre.
>
>           What can one say difinitively and importantly about the  
> linebreak
>           in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery,
> Gluck,
>           Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>
>           Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most  
> important
> arbitrary
>           limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to  
> the poem
>           if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to  
> indent the
> end
>           of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>
>           Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>           on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
>           contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>           How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
>           How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or  
> interrupted?
>           How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
>           consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>           syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
>           complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>           what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
>           of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>           occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and  
> short
>           employed. And almost all these questions related to  
> linebreak
>           could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>
>           Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         ==========================================
>         David Graham
>         grahamd at ripon.edu
>         Home Page:
>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>         Poetry Library:
>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>         ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ----
>
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       New-Poetry mailing list
>       New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>       http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ------
> --
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
> b683c456/at
> tachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alexander Dickow <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <20060928215630.62235.qmail at web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dave,
> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
> this might be where you're drawing the line between
> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
> stuff.
> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
> Yours,
> Alex
>
> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
> c'est du
> manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere  
> laquelle
> les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:58:32 +0100
> From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
>         <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Stress? Don't talk to me about stress! I've got a pain in the dipodes
> all down my left side. Marvin do this, Marvin do that. Brain the size
> of the planet and all you want me to do is talk about MFA courses? I
> think I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water.
>
> On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> My dipodes are stressed.
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
>>  Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>
>>
>> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>>
>>> We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a  
>>> thwarptingle
> and
>>> it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered  
>>> syllables
>>
>> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding it ...
>>
>>  First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive stress.  
>> The
>> classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think --  
>> am I
>> right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The
> Concept
>> of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if anyone  
>> wants
> to
>> check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though.
>>
>>  Robin
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>  ________________________________
>>  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and  
>> security
>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across  
>> the web,
>> free AOL Mail and more.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.badstep.net/
> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
> Suspicion breeds confidence
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:01:19 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0 at pc2b565f661721>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=original
>
> <<
> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
> partially deaf
> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
> infancy) and
> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
> me on
> this)
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>>>
>
> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower  
> jaw, which
> does make it difficult to grind them.
>
> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a  
> week or so
> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was  
> sitting
> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>
> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms  
> here are
> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>
> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
> yourself!
>
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth% 
> 20Chiding.htm
>   )
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:28:59 +0100
> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <008101c6e34d$7ffc5cb0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Busy watching 'Dogma' on C4 here, which as funny as its reputation,  
> Rob, but
> one thing I will say is that I love your homage poem to Berryman.
>
> So there, that's a compliment!
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
>
>> <<
>> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
>> partially deaf
>> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
>> infancy) and
>> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
>> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
>> me on
>> this)
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>>>
>>
>> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower  
>> jaw,
> which
>> does make it difficult to grind them.
>>
>> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a  
>> week or
> so
>> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was  
>> sitting
>> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>>
>> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms  
>> here are
>> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>>
>> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
>> yourself!
>>
>>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth% 
> 20Chiding.htm
>>   )
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:55:19 +0100
> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <008d01c6e351$2f92be00$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Alexander:
>
> syntactic play is exactly it, a bit late on the night to here  
> elaborate
> further, but thanks!
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>
>
>> Dave,
>> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
>> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
>> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
>> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
>> this might be where you're drawing the line between
>> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
>> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
>> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
>> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
>> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
>> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
>> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
>> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
>> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
>> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
>> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
>> stuff.
>> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
>> Yours,
>> Alex
>>
>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
>> c'est
> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:36:12 -0400
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <000b01c6e356$e2408690$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=response
>
> And no one can bend it like Beckham.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
>
>
>>> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.
>>
>> Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:57:43 +0100
> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00ab01c6e359$e4d24da0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Alexander
>
> Briefly, going back to this, asymmetry is one of the targets of the  
> poem. It
> attempts to talk the 'way we talk', in that its structure tries to  
> reflect
> things 'happening', without plan. I would have a criticisism of it  
> in the
> lines:
>
>> and a man from Animal Rights
> came round to strangle her<
>
> in that they reflect rather than project the way Vicky talks, I  
> wouldn't say
> in that rather child-like way 'a man from Animal Rights' but Vicky  
> would, so
> there is a slip of atristic control there.
>
> This is a late night epistle!
>
> All the Best
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>
>
>> Dave,
>> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
>> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
>> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
>> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
>> this might be where you're drawing the line between
>> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
>> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
>> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
>> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
>> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
>> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
>> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
>> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
>> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
>> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
>> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
>> stuff.
>> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
>> Yours,
>> Alex
>>
>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
>> c'est
> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:59 -0400
> From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
>         <aa458fec0609281659q50660459re70a3704b2bd258c at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Pulling your dipodes can be very serious, man. That can throw the  
> Korsch's
> caesura into a spasm and then-- ouch.  Much worse than a torn  
> tercet, and I
> speak from experience here.
>
> I have arnica cream which is very good for that sort of thing, but  
> you'll
> also need to ice them and STAY OFF THEM until they get a little more
> unstressed and trochaic.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Suzanne
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
> d02eb4dc/at
> tachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:45 -0400
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <008b01c6e35a$742b14a0$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=original
>
> The difference is probably like Potter Stewart's definition of hard- 
> core
> pornography -- "I know it when I see it."
>
> When free verse is successful (and that's a matter of personal taste,
> finally) it sounds like verse. It swings, it hops, it stutters, it has
> language that calls attention to itself in a good way, it has the
> compression and resonance we go to poetry for. When we don't find  
> those
> things, we say it sounds like chopped up prose.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:26 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
>
>
>>> There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>>> tradition, at least, behind
>>> it,
>>> and there's chopped-up prose ...
>>
>> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
>> difference is between these two for so long I finally
>> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
>> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
>> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
>> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
>> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
>> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
>> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
>> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
>> oral realizations of written text). But even in
>> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
>> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
>> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
>> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
>> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
>> Jules Laforgue).
>> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
>> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
>> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
>> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
>> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
>> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
>> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
>> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
>> can be surprising and wonderful too.
>> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
>> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
>> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
>> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
>> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
>> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>>
>> "Postcard"
>>
>> Here the weather
>> is so vacation
>> and my wife,
>> we are having wonderful
>> tennis. [...]
>>
>> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
>> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
>> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
>> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
>> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
>> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
>> Yours,
>> Alex
>>
>> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
>> training's mostly in French.
>>
>>
>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
>> c'est
>> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
>> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:02:36 -0400
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00a201c6e35a$92911020$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> And Yeats was tone-deaf.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Anthony Lawrence
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
>   Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:43 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
>
>   John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially deaf  
> (don't
> know which ear).
>   He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm  
> theory to
> the test by
>   aligning it with Snow's poetry.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   On 29/09/2006, at7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>
>
>     Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
> partially
> deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
> infancy)
> and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
> me on
> this)
>
>     Best
>
>     Dave
>
>
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: Anthony Lawrence
>       To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>       Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
>       Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>
>
>       One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine  
> has said
> that when Berryman walked in
>       he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to  
> happen. One
> of my favourite stories
>       from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
> petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
>       an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian  
> poet called
> John Manifold. Manifold
>       wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love that
> Manifold made it from Queensland
>       to Iowa.
>
>
>       On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>
>         I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most  
> part.  If
> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account for
> everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not that  
> the
> questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle  
> with them,
> though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>
>
>         Levine's mature work is quite different from his early  
> stuff, as I'm
> being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a  
> student.
> Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early  
> on, then
> joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent  
> readers know
> that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him  
> still.  Some
> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh on  
> free
> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early  
> Levine is
> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and  
> sounds) like
> free verse.
>
>
>         I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in  
> recent books,
> but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
> whimsical
> response from a few books ago:
>
>
>
>
>         A Theory of Prosody
>
>         When Nellie, my old pussy
>         cat, was still in her prime,
>         she would sit behind me
>         as I wrote, and when the line
>         got too long she'd reach
>         one sudden black foreleg down
>         and paw at the moving hand,
>         the offensive one. The first
>         time she drew blood I learned
>         it was poetic to end
>         a line anywhere to keep her
>         quiet. After all, many morn-
>         ings she'd gotten to the chair
>         long before I was even up.
>         Those nights I couldn't sleep
>         she'd come and sit in my lap
>         to calm me. So I figured
>         I owed her the short cat line.
>         She's dead now almost nine years,
>         and before that there was one
>         during which she faked attention
>         and I faked obedience.
>         Isn't that what it's about--
>         pretending there's an alert cat
>         who leaves nothing to chance.
>
>         --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>
>
>
>         On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
> <JforJames at aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>           I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't made
>           or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at  
> the end
>           of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just one  
> element
>           (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>           important to the construct a particular poem, or to the  
> making of
>           many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>           poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>           merely by the habit of the poet.
>
>           The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary  
> technique of
> the
>           free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by  
> many poets
> and
>           handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
> differently
>           with one's ouevre.
>
>           What can one say difinitively and importantly about the  
> linebreak
>           in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like Ashbery,
> Gluck,
>           Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>
>           Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most  
> important
> arbitrary
>           limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line to  
> the poem
>           if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to  
> indent the
> end
>           of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>
>           Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>           on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is employed in
>           contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>           How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of speech?
>           How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or  
> interrupted?
>           How often does the last word end on or start with a vowel or
>           consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>           syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal rime
>           complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>           what closely follows? How often does the poet use the device
>           of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>           occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long and  
> short
>           employed. And almost all these questions related to  
> linebreak
>           could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>
>           Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         ==========================================
>         David Graham
>         grahamd at ripon.edu
>         Home Page:
>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>         Poetry Library:
>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>         ==========================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ----
>
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       New-Poetry mailing list
>       New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>       http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ------
> --
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
> b1d00d75/at
> tachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: jfq at myuw.net
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
>         <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973 at hymn05.u.washington.edu>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>>
>>> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's
> something I
>>> haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional  
>>> prosody,and
> how
>>> is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book
> recommendation
>>> or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>>
>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).   
>> It's not
> the
>> most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>
> And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English  
> Phonetics and
> Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.
>
>> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one  
>> thing in
>> metrics and another in linguistics.
>
> True, but my argument, and it is a contentious one I know, is that  
> they are
> closely related topics and the former should be informed more  
> formally by
> the latter than it has been lately. The central notion being that it's
> stupid to define Stress in one way as affects poesy and another way
> completely in matters of linguistics because surely the former  
> again flows
> only from the latter, which itself is just an attempt to define an  
> observed
> feature of the languages.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
> ******************************************
>
> <winmail.dat>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 29 20:50:41 2006
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:50:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <5DE2EAB5-181F-4C1C-AF7B-26D35C846E04@bigpond.com>
References: <003201c6e3df$d13f8150$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu>
	<5DE2EAB5-181F-4C1C-AF7B-26D35C846E04@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <F63715E5-2350-495E-B59E-7154771FFDA3@earthlink.net>

...and how one's work might affect one's physical condition...

expression in terms of cause and effect sometimes feels painfully  
inadequate--
though useful shorthand...
           i try to embrace the inadequacy (of language or maybe even  
voice....)

           ah, "to make ourselves clearer" (an everyday expression
           which nonetheless sometimes seems extremely odd...

i still feel that part of the problem is not so much
the long list of poets diagnosed depressed or bipolar,
but the authority granted by many of such diagnoses as aberrant
against some standard of normality that may ultimately be noumena  
(spelling?)
firmly ensconced in platonic form heaven
(or maybe even the true felt and lived reality for some....
   which is fine, and I can respect---but sometimes it does seem
they try to impose its standards unfairly and/or mercilessly on the  
rest of us...)

Chris

On Sep 29, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Anthony Lawrence wrote:

>> It's hard to tell
>> how one's physical condition might affect his or her work
>
>
> And so from physical disability to emotional/chemical. The number  
> of major poets
> who had or have depression or a bipolar illness makes for a long  
> list indeed.
>
>
>
> On 30/09/2006, at 1:56 AM, Skip Fox wrote:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yet if I remember correctly, Duncan claimed at least some of his  
>> sense of
>> poetic collage where "multiple images coexist" came from a  
>> bifurcation due
>> to his eye condition. (His eyes were somewhat crossed.) It's hard  
>> to tell
>> how one's physical condition might affect his or her work . . .  
>> and whether
>> another can determine that's the case, much less to what extent.  
>> That is I
>> agree, though I realize that such speculations on the work-body  
>> relationship
>> might be useful if put forth _as_ speculations, just as I would  
>> allow for
>> the very real possibility of the relationship's existence.
>>
>>
>>
>> (Actually it's more typical to say that the intensity of Creeley's  
>> focus
>> came from the fact he only had a single eye.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Parker, Alan Michael [mailto:new-poetry- 
>> bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Parker, Alan Michael
>> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:54 AM
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject: RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Berryman was 1/2 deaf and his poems were too? And Creeley's one  
>> eye accounts
>> for his line-breaks? Oh dear. As a short man, I resent the epic
>> implications....
>>
>>
>>
>> - AMP
>>
>>   _____
>>
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of
>> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Thu 9/28/2006 11:35 PM
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
>>
>> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>>         new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
>>    2. dave bircumshaw's poem (Alexander Dickow)
>>    3. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Roger Day)
>>    4. Re: Levine's prosody (Robin Hamilton)
>>    5. Re: Levine's prosody (David Bircumshaw)
>>    6. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
>>    7. Re: What Work Is (TheOldMole)
>>    8. Re: dave bircumshaw's poem (David Bircumshaw)
>>    9. Re: I hate everyone with an MFA (Suzanne Burns)
>>   10. Re: free verse vs metrics (TheOldMole)
>>   11. Re: Levine's prosody (TheOldMole)
>>   12. Re: mfa bla bla (jfq at myuw.net)
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:57:05 +0100
>> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <007201c6e349$0abf1310$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Yes, Snow did write poetry, but I seem to remember they were very  
>> much in
>> nineteenth century style Thomas Hood-like rhythms. Correct me if  
>> I'm wrong
>> about that, it is a vague memory.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Anthony Lawrence
>>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>   Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:43 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>>
>>
>>   John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially  
>> deaf (don't
>> know which ear).
>>   He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm  
>> theory to
>> the test by
>>   aligning it with Snow's poetry.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On 29/09/2006, at 7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
>> partially
>> deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
>> infancy)
>> and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
>> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
>> me on
>> this)
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Dave
>>
>>
>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>       From: Anthony Lawrence
>>       To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>       Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
>>       Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>>
>>
>>       One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine  
>> has said
>> that when Berryman walked in
>>       he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to  
>> happen. One
>> of my favourite stories
>>       from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
>> petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
>>       an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian  
>> poet called
>> John Manifold. Manifold
>>       wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love  
>> that
>> Manifold made it from Queensland
>>       to Iowa.
>>
>>
>>       On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most  
>> part.  If
>> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account  
>> for
>> everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not  
>> that the
>> questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle  
>> with them,
>> though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>>
>>
>>         Levine's mature work is quite different from his early  
>> stuff, as I'm
>> being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a  
>> student.
>> Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early  
>> on, then
>> joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent  
>> readers know
>> that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him  
>> still.  Some
>> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh  
>> on free
>> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early  
>> Levine is
>> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and  
>> sounds) like
>> free verse.
>>
>>
>>         I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in  
>> recent books,
>> but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
>> whimsical
>> response from a few books ago:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         A Theory of Prosody
>>
>>         When Nellie, my old pussy
>>         cat, was still in her prime,
>>         she would sit behind me
>>         as I wrote, and when the line
>>         got too long she'd reach
>>         one sudden black foreleg down
>>         and paw at the moving hand,
>>         the offensive one. The first
>>         time she drew blood I learned
>>         it was poetic to end
>>         a line anywhere to keep her
>>         quiet. After all, many morn-
>>         ings she'd gotten to the chair
>>         long before I was even up.
>>         Those nights I couldn't sleep
>>         she'd come and sit in my lap
>>         to calm me. So I figured
>>         I owed her the short cat line.
>>         She's dead now almost nine years,
>>         and before that there was one
>>         during which she faked attention
>>         and I faked obedience.
>>         Isn't that what it's about--
>>         pretending there's an alert cat
>>         who leaves nothing to chance.
>>
>>         --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
>> <JforJames at aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>           I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't  
>> made
>>           or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at  
>> the end
>>           of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just  
>> one element
>>           (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>>           important to the construct a particular poem, or to the  
>> making of
>>           many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>>           poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>>           merely by the habit of the poet.
>>
>>           The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary  
>> technique of
>> the
>>           free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by  
>> many poets
>> and
>>           handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
>> differently
>>           with one's ouevre.
>>
>>           What can one say difinitively and importantly about the  
>> linebreak
>>           in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like  
>> Ashbery,
>> Gluck,
>>           Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>>
>>           Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most  
>> important
>> arbitrary
>>           limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line  
>> to the poem
>>           if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to  
>> indent the
>> end
>>           of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>>
>>           Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>>           on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is  
>> employed in
>>           contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>>           How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of  
>> speech?
>>           How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or  
>> interrupted?
>>           How often does the last word end on or start with a  
>> vowel or
>>           consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>>           syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal  
>> rime
>>           complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>>           what closely follows? How often does the poet use the  
>> device
>>           of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>>           occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long  
>> and short
>>           employed. And almost all these questions related to  
>> linebreak
>>           could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>>
>>           Finnegan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         ==========================================
>>         David Graham
>>         grahamd at ripon.edu
>>         Home Page:
>>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>         Poetry Library:
>>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>         ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         New-Poetry mailing list
>>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -----
>>
>>
>>
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       New-Poetry mailing list
>>       New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>       http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     New-Poetry mailing list
>>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -------
>> --
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
>> b683c456/at
>> tachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Alexander Dickow <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Message-ID: <20060928215630.62235.qmail at web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Dave,
>> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
>> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
>> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
>> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
>> this might be where you're drawing the line between
>> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
>> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
>> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
>> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
>> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
>> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
>> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
>> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
>> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
>> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
>> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
>> stuff.
>> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
>> Yours,
>> Alex
>>
>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le monde,  
>> c'est du
>> manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere  
>> laquelle
>> les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:58:32 +0100
>> From: "Roger Day" <rog3r.day at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <fde503480609281458u18a23fc6jef1521563aedd9a4 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Stress? Don't talk to me about stress! I've got a pain in the dipodes
>> all down my left side. Marvin do this, Marvin do that. Brain the size
>> of the planet and all you want me to do is talk about MFA courses? I
>> think I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water.
>>
>> On 9/28/06, almaginnes at aol.com <almaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> My dipodes are stressed.
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
>>>  Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 1:16 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>>>
>>>
>>> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>>>
>>>> We could call the standard line of the last 500+ years a  
>>>> thwarptingle
>> and
>>>> it would still be ten syllables with each of the even numbered  
>>>> syllables
>>>
>>> more strongly stressed than the syllable immediately preceding  
>>> it ...
>>>
>>>  First dipodic metre, now this! Yes, yes, yes, contrastive  
>>> stress. The
>>> classic description of this, when it was first defined (I think  
>>> -- am I
>>> right, Mike?) is Wimsatt, W. K. and Monroe C. Beardsley (1959) "The
>> Concept
>>> of Metre: An Exercise in Abstraction". PMLA 74: 585-598, if  
>>> anyone wants
>> to
>>> check it out. Don't think it's available on the Web, though.
>>>
>>>  Robin
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>  ________________________________
>>>  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and  
>>> security
>>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across  
>>> the web,
>>> free AOL Mail and more.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.badstep.net/
>> http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/
>> Suspicion breeds confidence
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:01:19 +0100
>> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <009501c6e349$a1550820$4001a8c0 at pc2b565f661721>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>         reply-type=original
>>
>> <<
>> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
>> partially deaf
>> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
>> infancy) and
>> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
>> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
>> me on
>> this)
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>>>
>>
>> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower  
>> jaw, which
>> does make it difficult to grind them.
>>
>> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a  
>> week or so
>> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which was  
>> sitting
>> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>>
>> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms  
>> here are
>> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>>
>> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
>> yourself!
>>
>>
>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth% 
>> 20Chiding.htm
>>   )
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:28:59 +0100
>> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <008101c6e34d$7ffc5cb0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Busy watching 'Dogma' on C4 here, which as funny as its  
>> reputation, Rob, but
>> one thing I will say is that I love your homage poem to Berryman.
>>
>> So there, that's a compliment!
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>>
>>
>>> <<
>>> Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
>>> partially deaf
>>> (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
>>> infancy) and
>>> hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
>>> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees  
>>> with me on
>>> this)
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't exaggerate -- I still have five, admittedly all in my lower  
>>> jaw,
>> which
>>> does make it difficult to grind them.
>>>
>>> OK, to pick up from the point we stopped yelling at each other a  
>>> week or
>> so
>>> ago, I did manage to dig out my copy of the Dream Songs (which  
>>> was sitting
>>> waiting for you to raise this again), so how about a specific poem?
>>>
>>> I'd suggest 324, "An Elegy for W.C.W." -- you say how the rhythms  
>>> here are
>>> flat and I'll explain how you're wrong.
>>>
>>> (And, hey, *you were the one who published *me on Berryman, so blame
>>> yourself!
>>>
>>>
>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth% 
>> 20Chiding.htm
>>>   )
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:55:19 +0100
>> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <008d01c6e351$2f92be00$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Alexander:
>>
>> syntactic play is exactly it, a bit late on the night to here  
>> elaborate
>> further, but thanks!
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>>
>>
>>> Dave,
>>> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
>>> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
>>> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
>>> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
>>> this might be where you're drawing the line between
>>> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
>>> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
>>> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
>>> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
>>> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
>>> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
>>> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
>>> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
>>> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
>>> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
>>> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
>>> stuff.
>>> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
>>> Yours,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le  
>>> monde, c'est
>> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
>> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:36:12 -0400
>> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <000b01c6e356$e2408690$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>         reply-type=response
>>
>> And no one can bend it like Beckham.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Work Is
>>
>>
>>>> Nobody wrote free verse like archy.
>>>
>>> Nobody sang the blues like Blind Willie McTell.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:57:43 +0100
>> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <00ab01c6e359$e4d24da0$e3c60556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Alexander
>>
>> Briefly, going back to this, asymmetry is one of the targets of  
>> the poem. It
>> attempts to talk the 'way we talk', in that its structure tries to  
>> reflect
>> things 'happening', without plan. I would have a criticisism of it  
>> in the
>> lines:
>>
>>> and a man from Animal Rights
>> came round to strangle her<
>>
>> in that they reflect rather than project the way Vicky talks, I  
>> wouldn't say
>> in that rather child-like way 'a man from Animal Rights' but Vicky  
>> would, so
>> there is a slip of atristic control there.
>>
>> This is a late night epistle!
>>
>> All the Best
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:56 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] dave bircumshaw's poem
>>
>>
>>> Dave,
>>> Love the poem! Thanks and kudos.
>>> But I still don't get it. I see no obvious symmetry in
>>> line-length, nor semantic motivation in every
>>> line-break. What I like about the poem -- and I think
>>> this might be where you're drawing the line between
>>> chopped-up prose and free verse? -- is the syntactic
>>> invention: occasional inversions that evoke, without
>>> overdoing it and without "traditional" diction or
>>> vocabulary, centuries of English poetry. Syntactic
>>> play, that is, that doesn't end up like some of the
>>> dada-like gibberish I can't stand these days -- has
>>> cohesion, readability while being suggestive and rich,
>>> and doesn't just "break" syntax. It seems like what
>>> you call "chopped-up prose" might just be bad free
>>> verse, rather than distinct from the latter: flat,
>>> boring, subject-verb-object-official-English-language
>>> stuff.
>>> Correct me if I'm all wrong?
>>> Yours,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le  
>>> monde, c'est
>> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
>> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:59:59 -0400
>> From: "Suzanne Burns" <queenmouse at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hate everyone with an MFA
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <aa458fec0609281659q50660459re70a3704b2bd258c at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Pulling your dipodes can be very serious, man. That can throw the  
>> Korsch's
>> caesura into a spasm and then-- ouch.  Much worse than a torn  
>> tercet, and I
>> speak from experience here.
>>
>> I have arnica cream which is very good for that sort of thing, but  
>> you'll
>> also need to ice them and STAY OFF THEM until they get a little more
>> unstressed and trochaic.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Suzanne
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
>> d02eb4dc/at
>> tachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:01:45 -0400
>> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <008b01c6e35a$742b14a0$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>         reply-type=original
>>
>> The difference is probably like Potter Stewart's definition of  
>> hard-core
>> pornography -- "I know it when I see it."
>>
>> When free verse is successful (and that's a matter of personal taste,
>> finally) it sounds like verse. It swings, it hops, it stutters, it  
>> has
>> language that calls attention to itself in a good way, it has the
>> compression and resonance we go to poetry for. When we don't find  
>> those
>> things, we say it sounds like chopped up prose.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Dickow" <alexdickow9 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:26 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] free verse vs metrics
>>
>>
>>>> There's free verse, with a hundred years of
>>>> tradition, at least, behind
>>>> it,
>>>> and there's chopped-up prose ...
>>>
>>> I've been trying to figure out what the heck the
>>> difference is between these two for so long I finally
>>> gave up. I'd love to hear what you think the
>>> difference is. Granted, English is better than French,
>>> which has a phrasal stress pattern rather than
>>> word-stress (literally no-one, not even Meschonnic
>>> who's a hack theorist in France, has come up with any
>>> rigorous way of describing prose or free-verse rhythm
>>> in French, and my favorite metrical scholar in French
>>> thinks there's no such thing -- too much variation in
>>> oral realizations of written text). But even in
>>> English, I've never understood what makes "chopped-up
>>> prose" different from free-verse (as distinct from
>>> "vers libere" -- ie, metrical verse with lots of
>>> irregularity/play with normative or traditional modes,
>>> and that still therefore rely on the latter -- cf
>>> Jules Laforgue).
>>> Here's my little idea. There isn't any difference. Try
>>> cutting up some prose pieces: the frequency of
>>> meaningful, apparently motivated line-breaks is pretty
>>> frequent even when you're not aiming for it.
>>> Obviously, some artists shoot for the motivated and
>>> functional, as more esthetically pleasing (and it
>>> happens to be the route I prefer). But that's only one
>>> way to go about things, obviously, and the aleatory
>>> can be surprising and wonderful too.
>>> If there is a difference, maybe it's that "chopped-up
>>> prose" adds another dimension to the text, by
>>> introducing -- not regularity -- but the potential for
>>> secondary, more or less accidental, allusive or
>>> suggestive effects, like the first line in the second
>>> Levine poem posted, or this one from a piece of mine:
>>>
>>> "Postcard"
>>>
>>> Here the weather
>>> is so vacation
>>> and my wife,
>>> we are having wonderful
>>> tennis. [...]
>>>
>>> Examples abound. The point is that "chopped-up prose"
>>> could be a good thing, because it adds something --
>>> line endings, which might or might not be functional.
>>> A friend of mine said to me, "All discourse is
>>> lyrical. "The weather's nice" is lyrical." Why not
>>> chop up some prose, regularly or irregularly?
>>> Yours,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> PS: Sorry for the more esoteric refs, folks, my
>>> training's mostly in French.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ce dont le poete souffre le plus dans ses rapports avec le  
>>> monde, c'est
>>> du manque de justice _interne_. La vitre-cloaque de Caliban derriere
>>> laquelle les yeux tout-puissants et sensibles d'Ariel s'irritent."
>>> Rene Char, _Partage Formel_, fragment II
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:02:36 -0400
>> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <00a201c6e35a$92911020$6401a8c0 at OldMoleExpress>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> And Yeats was tone-deaf.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Anthony Lawrence
>>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
>>   Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:43 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>>
>>
>>   John Snow, the great English fast bowler, was also partially  
>> deaf (don't
>> know which ear).
>>   He wrote poetry, too. Not that I'd like to put your flat-rhythm  
>> theory to
>> the test by
>>   aligning it with Snow's poetry.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On 29/09/2006, at7:32 AM, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Yeah, but one of the things about Berryman was that he was  
>> partially
>> deaf (in the left ear, if I remember right, owing to an illness in  
>> infancy)
>> and hence was susceptible to flat rhythms (I can see Rob grinding his
>> non-existent teeth at this, as I know he profoundly disagrees with  
>> me on
>> this)
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Dave
>>
>>
>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>       From: Anthony Lawrence
>>       To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>       Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:26 PM
>>       Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's prosody
>>
>>
>>       One of Levine's teachers at Iowa was John Berryman. Levine  
>> has said
>> that when Berryman walked in
>>       he always had a sense of something extaordinary about to  
>> happen. One
>> of my favourite stories
>>       from that time at Iowa involves Berryman working through the
>> petrarchan sonnet. He handed out
>>       an example, written by, he said, a little-known Australian  
>> poet called
>> John Manifold. Manifold
>>       wrote mostly in traditional "bush" rhyme and rhythm. I love  
>> that
>> Manifold made it from Queensland
>>       to Iowa.
>>
>>
>>       On 28/09/2006, at 11:40 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>
>>         I agree with Jim Finnegan on this topic, for the most  
>> part.  If
>> you're looking for some Unified Freeverse Theory that will account  
>> for
>> everyone from Williams through Olson and Olds, good luck.  Not  
>> that the
>> questions shouldn't be asked, of course; we all need to wrestle  
>> with them,
>> though some of us put them less in the foreground, it seems.
>>
>>
>>         Levine's mature work is quite different from his early  
>> stuff, as I'm
>> being reminded lately while re-reading him pretty intensely with a  
>> student.
>> Like many of his generation, Levine wrote in rhyme & meter early  
>> on, then
>> joined the Naked Poetry revolution.  I wonder how many recent  
>> readers know
>> that Levine studied with Yvor Winters, and greatly respects him  
>> still.  Some
>> friends who were students of Levine tell me that he's very harsh  
>> on free
>> versers who don't know their traditional prosody.  A lot of early  
>> Levine is
>> in strict syllabics, also, which of course often is taken (and  
>> sounds) like
>> free verse.
>>
>>
>>         I haven't done a study of his moves in this regard in  
>> recent books,
>> but it's certainly a topic Levine has thought about.  Here's a  
>> whimsical
>> response from a few books ago:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         A Theory of Prosody
>>
>>         When Nellie, my old pussy
>>         cat, was still in her prime,
>>         she would sit behind me
>>         as I wrote, and when the line
>>         got too long she'd reach
>>         one sudden black foreleg down
>>         and paw at the moving hand,
>>         the offensive one. The first
>>         time she drew blood I learned
>>         it was poetic to end
>>         a line anywhere to keep her
>>         quiet. After all, many morn-
>>         ings she'd gotten to the chair
>>         long before I was even up.
>>         Those nights I couldn't sleep
>>         she'd come and sit in my lap
>>         to calm me. So I figured
>>         I owed her the short cat line.
>>         She's dead now almost nine years,
>>         and before that there was one
>>         during which she faked attention
>>         and I faked obedience.
>>         Isn't that what it's about--
>>         pretending there's an alert cat
>>         who leaves nothing to chance.
>>
>>         --Philip Levine.  A Walk With Tom Jefferson.  Knopf, 1988.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Sep 27, 2006, at 1:38 PM, <JforJames at aol.com>  
>> <JforJames at aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>           I rarely ask that question anymore....most poems aren't  
>> made
>>           or broken, so to speak, on the basis of what happens at  
>> the end
>>           of each line and the beginning of the next. It's just  
>> one element
>>           (like rhyme, imagery, content, tone) that may or may not be
>>           important to the construct a particular poem, or to the  
>> making of
>>           many poems by a particular poet. The poem may be a prose
>>           poem which happens to employ the convention of poetic line
>>           merely by the habit of the poet.
>>
>>           The linebreak, although touted as the prime literary  
>> technique of
>> the
>>           free verse poetry, seems to be arbitrarily handled by  
>> many poets
>> and
>>           handled so differently by so many poets, and sometimes very
>> differently
>>           with one's ouevre.
>>
>>           What can one say difinitively and importantly about the  
>> linebreak
>>           in the work of hundreds of contemporary poets, like  
>> Ashbery,
>> Gluck,
>>           Collins, Gregg, C.K. Williams, Goldbarth, Tate, etc?...
>>
>>           Isn't the standard width of the paper sheet the most  
>> important
>> arbitrary
>>           limit to any line of poetry? How important is the line  
>> to the poem
>>           if the typesetter is forced by margin requirements to  
>> indent the
>> end
>>           of certain lines against what occurs in manuscript copy?
>>
>>           Has anyone done a major scientific and statistical study,
>>           on a linguistic level, of the linebreak as it is  
>> employed in
>>           contemporary poetry or in the work of a single poet?
>>           How often to poets break on verb/noun/other parts of  
>> speech?
>>           How often is last phrase left syntatically intact or  
>> interrupted?
>>           How often does the last word end on or start with a  
>> vowel or
>>           consonant? How often is the endword monosyllabic or multi-
>>           syllabled. How often does the end word have an internal  
>> rime
>>           complement somewhere in the prior passage or
>>           what closely follows? How often does the poet use the  
>> device
>>           of breaking midword? On average how many words/syllables
>>           occur before the break? Are there any pattern of long  
>> and short
>>           employed. And almost all these questions related to  
>> linebreak
>>           could then be asked about the start of the successive line.
>>
>>           Finnegan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         ==========================================
>>         David Graham
>>         grahamd at ripon.edu
>>         Home Page:
>>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>         Poetry Library:
>>         http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>         ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         New-Poetry mailing list
>>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -----
>>
>>
>>
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       New-Poetry mailing list
>>       New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>       http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     New-Poetry mailing list
>>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -------
>> --
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060928/ 
>> b1d00d75/at
>> tachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: jfq at myuw.net
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mfa bla bla
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;  Views"
>>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>>         <Pine.LNX.4.43.0609282035081.17973 at hymn05.u.washington.edu>
>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>> From: "steve moore" <fssam6 at uaf.edu>
>>>
>>>> I'm kind of interested in this idea of linguistic prosody. It's
>> something I
>>>> haven't heard of before. How does it compare to  traditional  
>>>> prosody,and
>> how
>>>> is it applied to structuring a poem? If  someone has a book
>> recommendation
>>>> or a link they can send me too I  would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> I'd suggest Derek Attridge, +Rhythms of English Poetry+ (1981).   
>>> It's not
>> the
>>> most hard-nosed of linguistic approaches, but a good place to start.
>>
>> And then compare that to an introductory textbook on English  
>> Phonetics and
>> Phonology. I like "The Sounds of English" a lot.
>>
>>> As to the word "prosody" itself, this is tricky as it means one  
>>> thing in
>>> metrics and another in linguistics.
>>
>> True, but my argument, and it is a contentious one I know, is that  
>> they are
>> closely related topics and the former should be informed more  
>> formally by
>> the latter than it has been lately. The central notion being that  
>> it's
>> stupid to define Stress in one way as affects poesy and another way
>> completely in matters of linguistics because surely the former  
>> again flows
>> only from the latter, which itself is just an attempt to define an  
>> observed
>> feature of the languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
>> ******************************************
>>
>> <winmail.dat>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 30 04:58:24 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:58:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from The Writer's Almanac
Message-ID: <001201c6e46e$9666e8e0$e0a93452@ANNY>

Poem: "Exercise" by W.S. Merwin from Migration: New and Selected Poems. Copper Canyon Press. Reprinted with permission (buy now) 

Exercise 

First forget what time it is
for an hour
do it regularly every day

then forget what day of the week it is
do this regularly for a week
then forget what country you are in
and practice doing it in company
for a week
then do them together
for a week
with as few breaks as possible

follow these by forgetting how to add
or to subtract
it makes no difference
you can change them around
after a week
both will help you later 
to forget how to count

forget how to count
starting with your own age
starting with how to count backward
starting with even numbers
starting with Roman numerals
starting with fractions of Roman numerals
starting with the old calendar
going on to the old alphabet
going on to the alphabet
until everything is continuous again

go on to forgetting elements
starting with water
proceeding to earth
rising in fire

forget fire


W.S. Merwin 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060930/c650044e/attachment.html>

From jimgoar at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 12:32:07 2006
From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] from The Writer's Almanac ( forget you are Merwin) 
Message-ID: <20060930163207.10637.qmail@web31509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Exercise 

First forget what time it is
for an hour
do it regularly every day

then forget what day of the week it is
do this regularly for a week
then forget what country you are in
and practice doing it in company
for a week
then do them together
for a week
with as few breaks as possible

follow these by forgetting how to add
or to subtract
it makes no difference
you can change them around
after a week
both will help you later 
to forget how to count

forget how to count
starting with your own age
starting with how to count backward
starting with even numbers
starting with Roman numerals
starting with fractions of Roman numerals
starting with the old calendar
going on to the old alphabet
going on to the alphabet
until everything is continuous again

go on to forgetting elements
starting with water
proceeding to earth
rising in fire



(Forget you are Merwin)  
 


forget fire

 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060930/ed9608dd/attachment.html>

From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sat Sep 30 15:01:00 2006
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:01:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu>

if only we could forget
boring poems like this




Poem: "Exercise" by W.S. Merwin from Migration: New and Selected Poems. Copper Canyon Press. Reprinted with permission (buy now) 

Exercise 

First forget what time it is
for an hour
do it regularly every day

then forget what day of the week it is
do this regularly for a week
then forget what country you are in
and practice doing it in company
for a week
then do them together
for a week
with as few breaks as possible

follow these by forgetting how to add
or to subtract
it makes no difference
you can change them around
after a week
both will help you later 
to forget how to count

forget how to count
starting with your own age
starting with how to count backward
starting with even numbers
starting with Roman numerals
starting with fractions of Roman numerals
starting with the old calendar
going on to the old alphabet
going on to the alphabet
until everything is continuous again

go on to forgetting elements
starting with water
proceeding to earth
rising in fire

forget fire


W.S. Merwin 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060930/c650044e/attachment-0001.html

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 27, Issue 60
******************************************



-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 3402 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060930/4ea0a210/attachment.bin>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 30 15:06:54 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:06:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <00d901c6e4c3$98ae6740$e0a93452@ANNY>


there is nothing like Bill Knott's irony! Always welcome.


From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:01 PM


if only we could forget
boring poems like this






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Sep 30 15:09:42 2006
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:09:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <006c01c6e4c3$fe348bd0$49b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

My problem with it is that it's by someone trying to give us Sage Advice 
rather than poetry, which can be so much more than Sage Advice.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 30 17:00:37 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:00:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu>
	<00d901c6e4c3$98ae6740$e0a93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002701c6e4d3$7b0f23e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Here's another, kind of on the same theme.

Burden


Nouns were the first to slip away.
Was it because they were easier to forget,
or the most dispensable?

Funerals back then were milling
with nouns whose names he'd forgotten,
if he'd ever met them.

Evidently, somewhere out there
a swarm of improper nouns
had prospered and multiplied.

Odd nouns came knocking every day
looking for work, till the old bard
left off answering the door.

Verbs were beasts of another persuasion.
For a while some stayed behind,
pacing the halls or curled on the living room sofa.

But they had to be fed. Some nights
they sank their claws in his thigh
when they were hungry.

As the last syllable crept away,
he felt a peculiar lightness,
like the wisp that rises,

from a smoldering wick?
as if words were the burden
he'd been bearing, all his life.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] forget it


>
> there is nothing like Bill Knott's irony! Always welcome.
>
>
> From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:01 PM
>
>
> if only we could forget
> boring poems like this
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 321 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20060930/a6625d15/attachment.gif>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 30 17:07:56 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:07:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu><00d901c6e4c3$98ae6740$e0a93452@ANNY>
	<002701c6e4d3$7b0f23e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <012601c6e4d4$80c06550$e0a93452@ANNY>

Is this yours? It gives the idea of a Burden, the title is appropriate. It 
digs down to the very essence of a depressive state by which complete 
isolation stands as the only solution.

From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>


> Here's another, kind of on the same theme.
>
> Burden
>
>
> Nouns were the first to slip away.
> Was it because they were easier to forget,
> or the most dispensable?
>
> Funerals back then were milling
> with nouns whose names he'd forgotten,
> if he'd ever met them.
>
> Evidently, somewhere out there
> a swarm of improper nouns
> had prospered and multiplied.
>
> Odd nouns came knocking every day
> looking for work, till the old bard
> left off answering the door.
>
> Verbs were beasts of another persuasion.
> For a while some stayed behind,
> pacing the halls or curled on the living room sofa.
>
> But they had to be fed. Some nights
> they sank their claws in his thigh
> when they were hungry.
>
> As the last syllable crept away,
> he felt a peculiar lightness,
> like the wisp that rises,
>
> from a smoldering wick?
> as if words were the burden
> he'd been bearing, all his life.
>




From tad at opus40.org  Sat Sep 30 17:10:07 2006
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:10:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu><00d901c6e4c3$98ae6740$e0a93452@ANNY><002701c6e4d3$7b0f23e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
	<012601c6e4d4$80c06550$e0a93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002d01c6e4d4$ceaf4330$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

No -- sorry, I meant to credit it. It's Donald Finkel, who mostly stayed 
under the radar screen and wrote great poetry.

Sadly, Don himself has slipped into the world of Alzheimer's he wrote about 
here.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] forget it


> Is this yours? It gives the idea of a Burden, the title is appropriate. It 
> digs down to the very essence of a depressive state by which complete 
> isolation stands as the only solution.
>
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
>
>
>> Here's another, kind of on the same theme.
>>
>> Burden
>>
>>
>> Nouns were the first to slip away.
>> Was it because they were easier to forget,
>> or the most dispensable?
>>
>> Funerals back then were milling
>> with nouns whose names he'd forgotten,
>> if he'd ever met them.
>>
>> Evidently, somewhere out there
>> a swarm of improper nouns
>> had prospered and multiplied.
>>
>> Odd nouns came knocking every day
>> looking for work, till the old bard
>> left off answering the door.
>>
>> Verbs were beasts of another persuasion.
>> For a while some stayed behind,
>> pacing the halls or curled on the living room sofa.
>>
>> But they had to be fed. Some nights
>> they sank their claws in his thigh
>> when they were hungry.
>>
>> As the last syllable crept away,
>> he felt a peculiar lightness,
>> like the wisp that rises,
>>
>> from a smoldering wick?
>> as if words were the burden
>> he'd been bearing, all his life.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Sep 30 17:25:56 2006
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:25:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] forget it
References: <200609301600.k8UG04oO003214@wiz.cath.vt.edu><926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529EF2@mail.emerson.edu><00d901c6e4c3$98ae6740$e0a93452@ANNY><002701c6e4d3$7b0f23e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><012601c6e4d4$80c06550$e0a93452@ANNY>
	<002d01c6e4d4$ceaf4330$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <014d01c6e4d7$0490d520$e0a93452@ANNY>

I did not want to mention it because I did not know if it was yours, but I 
thought of Alzheimer. Incredible how it stands out.

>From Tad:

> No -- sorry, I meant to credit it. It's Donald Finkel, who mostly stayed 
> under the radar screen and wrote great poetry.
>
> Sadly, Don himself has slipped into the world of Alzheimer's he wrote 
> about here.
>
>
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>
>
>> Is this yours? It gives the idea of a Burden, the title is appropriate. 
>> It digs down to the very essence of a depressive state by which complete 
>> isolation stands as the only solution.
>>
>> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
>>
>>
>>> Here's another, kind of on the same theme.
>>>
>>> Burden
>>>
>>>
>>> Nouns were the first to slip away.
>>> Was it because they were easier to forget,
>>> or the most dispensable?
>>>
>>> Funerals back then were milling
>>> with nouns whose names he'd forgotten,
>>> if he'd ever met them.
>>>
>>> Evidently, somewhere out there
>>> a swarm of improper nouns
>>> had prospered and multiplied.
>>>
>>> Odd nouns came knocking every day
>>> looking for work, till the old bard
>>> left off answering the door.
>>>
>>> Verbs were beasts of another persuasion.
>>> For a while some stayed behind,
>>> pacing the halls or curled on the living room sofa.
>>>
>>> But they had to be fed. Some nights
>>> they sank their claws in his thigh
>>> when they were hungry.
>>>
>>> As the last syllable crept away,
>>> he felt a peculiar lightness,
>>> like the wisp that rises,
>>>
>>> from a smoldering wick?
>>> as if words were the burden
>>> he'd been bearing, all his life.
>>>
>>